WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:04.839 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.560 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You 3 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:11.320 get access to a private RSS feed where all the 4 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:14.599 shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will get 5 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:18.440 you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign 6 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:34.719 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. 7 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:37.159 Hey Philly, it's dot net rock. 8 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:46.479 Wow. 9 00:00:47.079 --> 00:00:49.159 Yeah, so long since we've been in front of a 10 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:50.039 real crowd. 11 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:51.200 That a live show man. 12 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:55.000 While I drove down here from New London, it's about 13 00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:58.159 four and a half hours and I had road trip flashbacks. 14 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:02.079 Yeah, yeah, no kidding. It was one of the I 15 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:06.120 think we stopped here on every tour, Yes, every single one, 16 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:07.920 from the very first one two thousand and five, which 17 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.840 is entirely your idea because I was brand new, twenty eight, 18 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:15.439 twenty ten, twenty twelve, twenty thirteen. Yeah, yeah, everyone. We 19 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:17.319 always came to Philly. Sometimes we got to do a 20 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:20.760 whole day, like we do a day of dot net thing. 21 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:22.799 Sometimes it would just be the evening show. But you know, 22 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:24.719 you could always count on Philly folks to come out 23 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:27.359 and have a great time. So this is a special one. 24 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:29.400 It's a one off, it's one of a kind, and 25 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:30.840 we're gonna have some fun. 26 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.480 We are going to have some fun. Before I introduce 27 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:37.519 the other two people who are here with us, let's 28 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:38.719 talk about. 29 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:40.159 Nineteen eighty one. 30 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.799 Nineteen eighty one. All right, so do you know what 31 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:43.959 happened in nineteen eighty one? 32 00:01:44.040 --> 00:01:46.959 A few things, tell us, but I focused purely on 33 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:49.680 space and technology topics. Well, go ahead, Well it's nineteen 34 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:51.400 eighty one, so it is the beginning of the Space 35 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:55.959 Shuttle program. Well, the successful launch after years of delay. Remember, 36 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:58.760 Shuttle was supposed to rescue sky Lab and they lost 37 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:01.079 that in seventy nine. This is nineteen eighty one. They 38 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:03.879 missed it by a few years. So STS one flies 39 00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:07.000 in April with Young Crippon on board. They for fifty 40 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:13.240 four hours, thirty seven orbits and a totally successful flight, really, 41 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:17.879 no no drama, great test flight. Famously, it was Crippen. 42 00:02:18.439 --> 00:02:20.680 Young was the guy who flew everything. He was in Gemini, 43 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.759 he was in Apollo, but Crippen was the new guy. 44 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:25.960 And as they were bringing it in for a landing, 45 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:27.759 says how it FLI And he said flies like a 46 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:31.599 brick shit house because it did right, This a one 47 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.159 hundred ton vehicle with stubby little wingstune two hundred miles 48 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:36.759 nuts at hour. You know, it's stuffed a landa thing. Anyway, 49 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:38.800 they had to edit that so if you ever see 50 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:40.919 the quote from Robert Crippen it's flies like a brick, 51 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:45.879 that is not not what he said Later that year 52 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:50.199 sts two. So they turned Columbia around in about six 53 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:53.800 months and flew it again in November. This time it 54 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:58.560 was angling truly. Engel was supposed to be on Apollo seventeen. 55 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:01.000 He got bumped by Harrish and Schmidt, the only scientists 56 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.240 to ever walk on the Moon. And so they flew 57 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:08.400 Columbia again, and the main job of the second flight 58 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:10.400 was to test out the Canada Arm because their first 59 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:12.000 this was back when they thought they were going to 60 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:13.719 fly these things every two weeks and they were going 61 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:16.280 to deploy satellites from them, repair satellites from do all 62 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:19.080 this cool stuff right. It was a space transport system 63 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:21.159 except for all that part where did that didn't work? 64 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:24.800 And so they this was the trials for the It 65 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:26.599 was going to be five days up there working on 66 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:30.520 the Canada ARM And on the first day they had 67 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:33.120 a field cell failure and so they were low on power. 68 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:34.919 They couldn't operate the arm, so they cut the mission 69 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:36.800 down to two days and turn around came back. 70 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.800 Was that the flights with the white painted external tank. 71 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:43.719 This is when the external light was still Another voice, 72 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:46.159 what's going on here? Oh, that's Jeff Fritz. 73 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:48.719 That's Jeff Frid's okay, Yeah, So that that's back when 74 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:52.599 the tanks were painted white, and that paint weighed something 75 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:54.800 like fifteen hundred pounds. So that's why they lost it eventually. 76 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:56.879 It was just weighs that much. 77 00:03:56.919 --> 00:03:58.240 When you get that much of it on there. 78 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:00.520 Well, you can dump the cans overboard once you get space. 79 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:04.240 So and Columbia was always overweight, right, she was. She 80 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:06.479 was just the first flying vehicle. And that's why she 81 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:08.080 never went to the space station. She couldn't get to it. 82 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:10.919 That didn't have any that mass, didn't have enough energy 83 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:11.280 get there. 84 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:13.280 That was the space shuttles that had. 85 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:14.000 Space shttle Columbia. 86 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:16.480 Yeah, and that's the one with the bricks underneath it. 87 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:20.480 With the well, and that would crumble in your hands 88 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:23.000 like they would crush. Right, they're very delicate. It was 89 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:23.839 ridiculous to delicate. 90 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:26.000 And another voice you heard was Bill Wolf. 91 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:33.839 And uh, the geek out start because of me ranting 92 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:36.519 at Carl in twenty eleven when Atlantis landed for the 93 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:38.040 last time. Well he was in a bar with some 94 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:41.600 of this, yes, and uh and just how screwed up? 95 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:43.639 You know, space Shuttle never really did what was supposed 96 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:45.680 to do, all the missions that it could never actually do. 97 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.319 And and Richard will never tell you this, but he 98 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:51.000 had the Space Shuttle manual and read it cover to 99 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:55.480 cover so he could tell you everything about the Space Shuttle. 100 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:57.519 Uh, not entirely true, but okay. 101 00:04:58.000 --> 00:04:58.120 Uh. 102 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.399 Anyway, he talked me into let's do that as a show. 103 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:03.800 And I thought you guys would crucify us for that 104 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:06.240 because it was not exactly software. And I was wrong. 105 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:10.839 The geekout and I kept doing them. And this is 106 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:14.360 eighty this is eighty one. This is the end of November, 107 00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:16.680 end of December show. The next two shows will be 108 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:19.079 the annual Geekouts. So I've been working all my scripts 109 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:21.680 for an update on space and an update on energy generation. 110 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:25.079 So that's coming last space topic and then we'll talk computers. 111 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:30.360 Voyage two does its flyby of Saturn in August, so 112 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.560 one of the pioneers already coming gone. But this is 113 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:35.160 the second time we got to look at Saturn Voyager 114 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:37.839 when I gotten there the couple years before, and we 115 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:40.079 got some better images, and that sets us up for 116 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:44.800 eventually Cassini. And this is when they figure out that 117 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:49.959 that titan very likely has a prototypical atmosphere and increases 118 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.079 the excitement for building bigger missions around all right. On 119 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:55.759 the computer side, nineteen eighty one is the year that 120 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.000 Sony introduces the three and a half inch floppy disco. 121 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.480 Beginning of all of that, there was competing sizes. There 122 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:05.279 were three inch versions and three and a quarters as 123 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:06.959 well as the three and a half and a three 124 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:09.000 and a half ultimately be the one that was adopted everywhere. 125 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:11.120 Not so floppy, though not a flop at all, quite 126 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:12.839 rigid actually, which part of the reason it worked so well. 127 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.240 They used the Bernoulli effect inside that rigid housing so 128 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:18.000 they could increase I density. The original discs were only 129 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:19.800 three hundred and sixty K, then they went to seven 130 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:24.279 twenty and then one point four megabytes, so much storage, 131 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:27.439 but by far easily most important story nineteen eighty one 132 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:30.480 the release of the IBM fifty one fifty which you 133 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:33.240 know is the IBM PC four point seven to seven 134 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:38.839 MEGAHURTZ processor. The eighty eighty eight processor by default sixteen 135 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:40.480 k ARAM, but you could expand it to two hundred 136 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:42.560 fifty six. Later we would come up with an expansion 137 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:43.480 burd to take to six. 138 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:45.759 Forty, but need more than two hundred and fifty six. 139 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:49.079 Well really sixteen k right, basic configuration, but you could 140 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:53.360 run twos that's all there was, of course, shipped with 141 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:57.600 CPM eighty six, or you could run this brand new 142 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.000 shiny ms DOUS one point zero. Why did they do 143 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:02.959 the eighty eighty eight instead of the eighty eighty six 144 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:06.040 because it was cheaper and more readily available. The eighty 145 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:07.680 six ers were in high demand and they wanted to 146 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:09.240 build a lot of these machines. They were trying to 147 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:11.600 get faster to the market, and so the eighty eighty 148 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.000 eight was more readily available. It also made the machine 149 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:17.000 cheaper because it only had an eight bit input bus, 150 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:18.879 and so all of the bus structures were eight bit 151 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:21.800 instead of sixteen bit. That will be changed with the 152 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:23.800 later models, with the XT and so on. 153 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:25.439 The turbo, remember the turbo, but. 154 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:31.120 Turbo button go up to eight megahertz and dokey go like, yes, 155 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:34.160 do not be processor cycle synchronized. That's not a right 156 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:38.920 idea idea. It was always intended to be licensable. And 157 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:42.600 so within a year Columbia Data Products makes the first 158 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:47.360 of the PC compatibles and all of our careers. Yeah, 159 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:50.079 also in the same year. And I never realized this 160 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:52.399 happened in the same year. You always thought this was 161 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:56.959 older the Osbourne one. The Osbourne one came out in 162 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:59.399 nineteen eighty one. So this was what we call a luggable. 163 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.720 It was literally like a suitcase keyboard attached onto the bottom, 164 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:05.399 had a five inch displaying in the middle, a pair 165 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:07.439 of five and a quarter floppy drives on each side, 166 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:12.439 weigh about twenty five pounds speakers. Yeah, I remember having it. 167 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:15.240 I had a compact, but not in Osborne in Osbourne. 168 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:16.680 And there's a good reason for that, because Osborne were 169 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:20.079 quickly out of business by Osborne in themselves. Yes, would 170 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.120 just say as they started selling their first machine, they 171 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:24.519 started talking about what was going to be a second machine. No, 172 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:27.639 I was born too, and that stopped sales of Osborne 173 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:30.240 one because everybody was waiting for that, and that bankrupted 174 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:32.360 the company. So they never built the Osbourne two, and 175 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.799 they became a verb. Do not Osborne yourself. Don't talk 176 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.840 about your new product till you're ready to sell it. 177 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:41.919 It's okay that we talk about the geek outs because 178 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:42.919 our show is free. 179 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:45.679 Yeah, there you go. One last thing on computing. We'll 180 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:50.759 move on the IETF. That's the Internet Task Force publishes 181 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:54.639 AREC Specification seven nine to one, which is a definition 182 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:56.080 of IPv four. 183 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:57.240 Oh there you go. 184 00:08:57.519 --> 00:08:58.320 Oh yeah. 185 00:08:58.399 --> 00:08:59.919 A lot of things happened in nineteen eighty one. 186 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:00.759 That's the beginning. 187 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:04.519 And in the cultural side, I have three things. Ronald 188 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:12.120 Reagan inaugurated in December, shot in March. Nice yeah, sorry sorry, no, no, no, 189 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:18.279 it wasn't nice. I mean, yeah, it wasn't nice. MTV debuts. 190 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:24.120 I want my MTV Gary Newman here in my cars? Right, 191 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:28.600 was the first video Killed the Radio Star? And also 192 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:32.159 speaking of Donkey Kong that came out in nineteen eighty one. Awesome, 193 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:37.919 But if you played it in turbomodate one and that's it, 194 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:40.919 So I guess we should go for better no framework, right, 195 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:52.080 all right? Play the crazy music? All right, buddy, what 196 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:57.519 do you got? So I've got an interesting GitHub repo 197 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:00.240 that's trending, and I thought it was topical for what 198 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:02.600 we're going to talk about today. This is from the 199 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:07.080 dot Mac and it's called claud dash mem. So this 200 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:12.639 is persistent memory compression system built for Claud code. So 201 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:16.799 it's a plugin. It's a plugin for Claud code that 202 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:22.600 preserves context across sessions by automatically capturing tool usage observations, 203 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:26.600 generating semantic summaries, and making them available to future sessions. 204 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:31.679 So it's like client side context, right. It squishes it 205 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:35.000 all down and then on every other prompt it sends 206 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:39.559 it back. So it allows claud to maintain continuity of 207 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:44.480 knowledge about projects even after sessions end or reconnect. So 208 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:46.519 I kind of like that because you know, keeping all 209 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:49.399 that context is kind of expensive these days. But we're 210 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:52.519 going to talk about all that stuff coming up here. 211 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.320 But first, I guess the next thing we do is 212 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:57.919 talk about comments. 213 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:00.320 Who's talking to us, Richard Hi grab a comment off 214 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:04.399 show set nineteen seventy nine, So that's brand new, and 215 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:06.759 that's the show we did with Callum Simpson talking a 216 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:10.799 little bit about yak Shaver and our ongoing explorer defined 217 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.080 apps that are actually out in the market using AI technologies. 218 00:11:14.519 --> 00:11:17.399 This comment comes from Blackweb, and I'm going to summarize 219 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:19.440 them just a bit, but he says, on a recent project, 220 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:21.679 I gave some AI tools that you discussed or try. 221 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:24.960 We're trying to build at ten app using cloud and 222 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:27.960 Aspire Native application in VS twenty twenty six, brand new 223 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:31.919 VS code. The I tools included Copilot for Windows eleven, 224 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:35.039 get hub Copilot with GPT five and Claude four point five. 225 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:37.200 Copilot was helpful in all aspects of the project for 226 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.919 coding and research, but it had trouble fixing errors and bugs. 227 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:41.960 Often gets stuck in a loop and can't get out 228 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:44.559 of it without some human help. When the Claude four 229 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.159 point five plugin is at it, it gets even faster and 230 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:49.960 better at all aspects of coding, including script generation, which 231 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:52.399 it excels at. And now for the bad stuff. Get 232 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:56.399 Hub's pricing model and billing is aggressive and predatory. It 233 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:59.879 counts premium requests, which is basically anything you send in 234 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:02.799 in VS and VS code. You starting free trial budget 235 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:05.120 is twenty five requests, which most developers will use up 236 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:08.159 in about an hour. You can set the dollar limit 237 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.960 t additional requests for various purposes, including gethub actions and 238 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:13.120 so on. For Copilot pro, you get three hundred quests 239 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:15.759 for ten bucks, then of course they're all premium requests 240 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:18.559 and you're showing a progress bar. I used up three 241 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:21.879 point seven of my requests, so that would be like 242 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:25.919 ten in a few hours. I quickly became paranoid about 243 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.240 exceeding my request budget and running up a big bill. 244 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:31.799 Claud's pricing model is even more aggressive than Githubs, starting 245 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:33.799 it at seventeen dollars a month, it must be paid 246 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:36.879 in advance for about two hundred bucks a year. I 247 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:40.120 was impressed by Githubs, Copilot, and Claudes coding ability, but 248 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:42.519 I immediately felt like it was aggressively trying to run 249 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:45.840 up the request score as fast as possible. It is 250 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:48.639 able to edit my code window, generate new files, enter 251 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:52.759 in excute CLI commands, and rapidly generate tests, all of 252 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:56.120 which eats into that budget. Get help Copilot did generate 253 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:57.759 new code that worked, but it did it so fast 254 00:12:57.799 --> 00:12:59.240 that I had no idea what it had done, and 255 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:02.080 had essentially no knowledge or understanding of the code degenerated, 256 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:04.879 making me dependent on the AI for fixing any bugs 257 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:09.799 it created, which of course consumes more credits. After a 258 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:12.480 few hours with giphub, Copilot and Cloud, I felt like 259 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:14.799 I'd been replaced by it and had become a little 260 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:16.919 more than a human moderator or a monitor. Watched it 261 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.399 work and gave minimal input in suggestions while running up 262 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:22.679 AI tool generated bills of hundreds or maybe thousands of 263 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:25.480 dollars per week. I also wondered if it was being 264 00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:28.279 used to train AI tools to replace me and other developers. 265 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.759 AI coding tools are not creating bells developers. They're creating 266 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.519 unemployed or underemployed AI coding tool addicts who are stuck 267 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:39.360 in their exponentially increasing bill for those tools if they 268 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.720 are independent coders. And I've builted the many podcasts on 269 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.960 AI coding on dot in Rocks, I'm increasing concerned and 270 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:48.679 baffled by the endless fanboyism for a by the two 271 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.080 people I like and respect very much, Carl and Richard. 272 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:53.559 You guys need to stop drinking AI kool aid and 273 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:56.080 start talking to real developers who workflows and coding skills 274 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:58.200 are being adversely affected by AA coding tools that you're 275 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:00.919 providing with free blowing and biased reviews. 276 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:04.000 Yeah, you know, I've been waiting for a comment like 277 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.720 this because there is that sentiment out there and it's 278 00:14:06.759 --> 00:14:11.440 probably underrepresented by our audience. So, first of all, a 279 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:13.879 black Web, thank you very much for being brave enough 280 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:17.080 to send that to us. And yeah, I mean, I 281 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:21.039 feel your pain. However, I don't share your experience, and 282 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:26.840 I shared my experience, which is, you know, mostly positive. 283 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:29.320 There are times when I don't understand the code that 284 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:31.759 the AIS written, but I usually ask it to comment 285 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:34.759 any code that it writes so that I can understand it. 286 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:40.279 I also develop in pieces. If I say need a 287 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:43.399 full stack editor for some classes, I'll start with the models, 288 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.200 than the data layer, than any kind of manager, then 289 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.039 finally the UI. I might break all these down into 290 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:53.240 different prompts if they're too complex. I didn't always think this, 291 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.320 but now I believe in baby steps and it works 292 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:58.559 for me and my agent of choice is the co 293 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:02.320 pilot CLI and clauds on at four five. I never 294 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:04.399 felt like it was taking over my job. It's only 295 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:07.600 made me more productive, and he basically came back by saying, 296 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:11.039 can we hear a balanced view of AI coding tools 297 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:15.320 from actual developers, not AI apologists who are trying to 298 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:17.559 sell a very expensive product. And I said, well, I 299 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:21.559 am a real developer with real customers. The money they 300 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:24.120 pay me and the productivity games far out weigh the 301 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:27.759 costs of Copilot. I'm not an apologists for any technology 302 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:30.840 or any company. I'm an independent developer and a podcaster. 303 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:35.039 And he basically said, you know, you make a good point. 304 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:38.360 Maybe I just need to figure out more efficient ways 305 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:38.840 to use this. 306 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:42.919 Well, so time is money, yep. And if this stuff 307 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.759 saves you time, that's worth a lot. And you could 308 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:51.840 easily justify paying charges for things like Claude if it's 309 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:53.679 saving you hours of time. 310 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:55.240 Yeah, and therefore making you money. 311 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.240 Yes, I'm working with teams that are spending thousand dollars 312 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:01.840 a month. Yeah, but they're cranking through six weeks prints 313 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:07.240 in days like they're moving code fast. It isn't. And 314 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:09.720 then my problem is and there's two things that really 315 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:12.600 hit me with black webs comment and all about billing, 316 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:16.360 Which is first is this feels like telcos We're only 317 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:18.559 going to find out after the fact how much it 318 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.320 costs you, and the fact that you're learning on the 319 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.320 back of it and it's fixing itself means it makes 320 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:26.720 a mess then cleans it up for you and gets 321 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.320 paid for it like that is pretty annoying. Yeah, right, 322 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:32.679 But the bigger thing to me is we still don't 323 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:36.720 have real pricing. Right. This is the blue ocean phase 324 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:40.639 of this technology where they're low buying the figures just 325 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:44.120 to get us on board. It will be very interesting 326 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.679 to see what the real economics this looks like when 327 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.320 the crazy ends and everybody actually has to pay the piper, Like, 328 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:52.600 is this actually going to be viable? I don't know 329 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:53.279 the answer to that. 330 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.080 It's so we have before we have a discussion that 331 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:59.360 we need to wrap up the comment because that's basically 332 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.159 what this whole show and. 333 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.240 Black Web you're timing is impeccable having provide us with 334 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:06.880 a comment that you literally says a foundation for the 335 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:09.480 show about what is AI going to look do to 336 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:12.079 development in the next in these next few years. So 337 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:13.640 thank you so much for your comment and a copy 338 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:15.200 of music Code Buy. It's on its way to you. 339 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:16.839 And if you'd like a copy of music Code Buy, 340 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:19.119 write a comment on the website at dot netroocks dot com. 341 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:20.799 When the facebooks you publish every show there, and if 342 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:22.640 you comment there and ever reading the show, will send 343 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:23.599 you a copy of music. 344 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:24.599 Go and if you don't want to do that, you 345 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:26.480 can always just go buy it and music to code 346 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:30.279 by dot net. It's twenty five minute tracks. There's twenty 347 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:32.279 two of them. I'm working on twenty three now and 348 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:36.160 you can get the collection in MP three, wave or flak. 349 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.839 All right, now, let me formally introduce the other two 350 00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:42.480 guys that are here with us tonight, starting with Jeff Fritz. 351 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:46.240 Jeff is a principal program manager in Microsoft's Developer division 352 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.079 on the dot Net Community Team, where he leads development 353 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:52.640 of live video and online content. Jeff is the executive 354 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.839 producer of the dot Net coonf series of online events. 355 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:02.319 Heard of that. He is also a Twitch and YouTube 356 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:04.759 partner as well as the founder of the Live Coders 357 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:07.559 stream team. You can catch Jeff writing dot net code 358 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:10.160 with Gethub Visual Studio in Azure on his video stream 359 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:13.799 called Fritz and Friends at Twitch, dot tv, slash c 360 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:21.720 Sharp Fritz. Bill Wolf is here and this is an 361 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.519 important date for Bill, isn't it? 362 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:23.799 Bill? 363 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:28.440 It is? Because so tonight I've been running Philly dot net, 364 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.240 which is one of the largest and certainly one of 365 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:35.519 the oldest dot net communities on the planet, possibly in 366 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:39.079 the Galaxy and been running it for twenty four years. 367 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:41.079 So I started it in two thousand and one. 368 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:43.240 And also you had something to do with this whole 369 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:44.720 Inetta thing, do you remember I did. 370 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.440 I was one of the I was a VP at 371 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:50.759 Anetta and I ran the speakers Bureau and my job 372 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:54.279 was to send famous people all over the country to 373 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:55.559 various user group meetings. 374 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:56.279 And that was all. 375 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:59.519 Funded through Microsoft at that time, and so that was 376 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:03.880 an interest project. But I started doing user groups in 377 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:09.920 nineteen seventy eight, so some of you may not have 378 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:14.559 been around then, but it's been a long time. And 379 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.519 Rob Kaiser, who's been by my side much of this time. 380 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:25.359 We were very instrumental in something called PAX, which was 381 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:28.359 one of the first user groups in the country, Philadelphia 382 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:33.960 era Computer Society. And I'll just one quick story. One 383 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.119 of my favorite meetings I ever ran at PAS. We 384 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.079 were at LaSalle University. This was in the early eighties 385 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:47.400 and I was because I'm very shy, I was on stage. 386 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:51.559 I was on stage sort of moderating, and the panel 387 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:57.160 there were the team from eniac OH and because some 388 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:00.000 of them still lived in the Philadelphia area, we actually 389 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:03.079 got like remember that they got like six people in 390 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:06.119 and they explained to us how they built eniac and 391 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.319 how they made it run and how they tested it 392 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:09.599 and stuff. It was fascinating. 393 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.839 Was that related to the Jetson's uniblab because that's the 394 00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:18.359 one I remember when I was that old. Well, Bill, 395 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:20.720 this is your last hurrah, isn't it. Yeah? 396 00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:24.200 Yeah, I'm gonna step down as the Philly dot net leader. 397 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:27.880 I'll still be involved in community. I still do speaking 398 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:30.519 here and there, but certainly not what I used to. 399 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.680 I can't keep up with these guys. They do a 400 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.160 dozen conferences a year. I used to do that, you know, 401 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:39.640