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Terms and conditions apply. 57 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:32.000 See website for details. 58 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:45.240 Radio, you are now listening to True Murder, The most 59 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:48.639 Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that 60 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:54.919 have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker BTK. 61 00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:59.599 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 62 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:01.879 and one of them is killers in true crime History. 63 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:07.360 True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 64 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:18.879 Good Evening. 65 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:27.159 Orange County Sergeant retired Michael W. Stred is the sketch Cop. 66 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:31.759 He's one of a kind crime fighter who's frequently called 67 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:35.919 into action by police departments seeking help solving their most 68 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:41.280 difficult cases. For over three decades, Michael has provided signature 69 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:46.759 images for the country's most notorious murders, rapes, and kidnapping kidnappings, 70 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:50.520 including the kidnapping and murder of five year old Samantha Runyon, 71 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:55.759 as well as the Baton Roue serial killer. The Sketch 72 00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:58.919 Cop has fought crime coast to coast, from Los Angeles 73 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:03.840 to Baltimore, Salt Lake City to Baton Rouge. Along the way, 74 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:06.479 he has papered the walls of police squad rooms with 75 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:12.360 sketches of their city's most dangerous criminals. In this collection 76 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:17.040 of true crime stories, Michael shares cases from his own portfolio. 77 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:21.879 He describes how he connects with and empowers courageous victims 78 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:26.199 and eye witnesses from all walks of life. Using their descriptions, 79 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:30.040 the author creates lifelike sketches of the assailants with an 80 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:34.680 accuracy that has led to quick identifications and captures. Sketch 81 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:38.399 Cop Drawing a Line against Crime provides readers a glimpse 82 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:42.800 at some of Michael W. Streed's career cases and the 83 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:47.800 significant role he plays in the criminal justice system. The 84 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:50.920 book that we are profiling this evening is Sketch Cop 85 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:56.319 Drawing a Line Against Crime with my special guest, sergeant 86 00:04:56.759 --> 00:05:01.319 journalist and author Michael W. Streed picked up there. 87 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:03.240 But I'm glad to be on. I'm glad to discuss 88 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:04.720 the book with you and your guests, or I'm sorry 89 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:06.720 you and your fans there. 90 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:11.879 Absolutely Now let's start off, Michael. I gave people a 91 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:14.680 little bit of an idea of what happens with this 92 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:17.279 book and what this book is all about, but very 93 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:21.759 very very little detail. So I think it's very important 94 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:24.560 to the book. Why don't you give us your background yourself. 95 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:28.040 You said your father was a police officer, but there 96 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:30.959 was much more to it in your early environment and 97 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:34.000 your background. So tell us your background and how you 98 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:37.279 came to want to be a police officer, and how 99 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:39.800 it came to be that you combined your love of 100 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:46.120 art and combined artistry and your police background and your 101 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:49.279 interest in police enforcement to be able to combine these 102 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:52.600 two things into what you have appropriately called sketch cop. 103 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:54.240 Sure. 104 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.279 Yeah, I grew up in a police household as long 105 00:05:57.319 --> 00:05:59.839 as I can remember. My father was a police officer, 106 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.079 eventually retired as a police chief. But being as that, 107 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:05.120 we lived in the same county police and there were 108 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:08.839 always police stopping by, hanging out, coming over for dinner 109 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:12.000 there at the holidays. So I knew all of them. 110 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:15.360 I listened to their stories, I knew their background, and 111 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:17.600 so I was pretty much inundated with it. But at 112 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:19.920 the same time, like most kids, I had a variety 113 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:22.319 of interests, and I was really interested in art as 114 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:25.639 a kid, and I just doodled and drew nothing really 115 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:28.720 serious growing up. And as I got older, towards high 116 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:31.199 school graduation, but what am I going to do with 117 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:34.920 my life? And I thought about being an artist, and 118 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:37.639 I realized that, you know, I would probably started us 119 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:40.240 because unless you were really popular had some sort of 120 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:43.120 niche type of art, you were going to be like 121 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:45.600 everyone else. And I always wanted to stand out somehow. 122 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:48.079 So I went ahead and went into police worker as 123 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.839 a cadet just out of high school. Because every profile 124 00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:54.000 I took said, you know, you are helpful to people, 125 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:56.279 you want to help people, and you like being outside. 126 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.519 And that's what police work afforded me, the ability to 127 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:02.639 help people be outside because had adrenaline and rushby the 128 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:05.959 first one there, and the art was always there. As 129 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:08.439 I went into police work, and one night I was 130 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.800 off and was enjoying dinner at home watching television. I 131 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:14.519 love to watch the news and I still do. And 132 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.079 I happen to see a composite sketch flash on the screen. 133 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:20.639 I dropped my fork. I'm like, that's it. That's that's 134 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:23.519 the epiphany, that's the that's the thunderbolt, the lightning strike. 135 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:25.040 This is what I want to do. This is how 136 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.839 I combine my love for art with my desire to 137 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:31.839 help people in public service. So I started training, and 138 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:34.519 you know, I still love catching bad guys, and for me, 139 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:36.839 you know, I like the car chase and I like 140 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:39.040 chasing people down alleys and stuff and all the cops 141 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:41.560 and robberts stuff. But I wanted to find a way 142 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:44.560 to set myself apart from my peers and find another 143 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.040 way to further help people and catch bad guys and 144 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:51.360 catch more and catch some of the worst people. And 145 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:55.199 so when I started taking courses in police sketching and 146 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:57.839 learning how to sketch the bad guys and talk to 147 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.360 people and turn their words into pay sure, you know, 148 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:03.879 I learned that there was much more in terms of 149 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.279 age progression, facial reconstruction, so many facets that I could 150 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:09.600 learn that I could add to my friends, a toolbox 151 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:13.639 and and again, you know, further my reach and law enforcement. 152 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:17.600 So so when people came to, you know, ask me 153 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.040 what do you do, I said, I'm a police sketch artist. 154 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:23.000 And I said, they said, well, they didn't really they 155 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:25.120 couldn't wrap their head around it. So I said, I'm 156 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:27.800 I'm I'm a sketch cop. Like, oh, okay, you're a 157 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:30.319 police officers sketches. I said, yeah, absolutely, that's that's it. 158 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:32.360 And so the word kind of stuck, and the name stuck, 159 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:35.080 and uh, I've used it ever since in terms of 160 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.399 the title of the book. Uh, you know, facial compositive 161 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:40.879 software products of my company sells and training and such. 162 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.879 So it's it's sketch coop is my brand. And and 163 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.200 that's how I describe pretty much what I do in 164 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:47.519 a word. 165 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:52.679 Now, I did talk to the audience a little bit 166 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:55.600 about that. It was a confluence of things that had 167 00:08:55.879 --> 00:08:58.080 had occurred at you one of the pioneers in this 168 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:04.159 digital uh facial imagery, but also you started off with 169 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:08.200 pen and paper. Pencil and paper, and when people do 170 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:11.279 think of police sketches, that's what we do think of. 171 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:13.759 So that's what I had told the audience that we 172 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:17.159 would be discussing with your book Sketch Coop, but you 173 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:22.320 provide a very good example and also how all facets 174 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.080 of law enforcement before DNA and before some of the 175 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:31.399 other forensic sciences were either discredited or as has happened, 176 00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:36.240 have been developed. So you talk about December eleventh, nineteen 177 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:40.039 eighty and you talk about getting learning a little bit 178 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:42.399 about along the way, about what not to do or 179 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:44.639 how to do things a little bit differently. So you 180 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:47.519 were sort of thrown into the fire here with this, 181 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:51.639 Dwayne McKinney. So maybe tell us a little bit about this. 182 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:54.879 I think this You said this was your very first, 183 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:56.919 So tell us a little bit about this case and 184 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.879 what you learned, and tell our audience about this case 185 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:04.559 and how you accomposite drawing was an integral part of 186 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:05.200 this case. 187 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:09.519 Sure, it was my first. I believe it was my 188 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:14.320 first murder case. I always believe that if you're starting 189 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:17.080 any type of craft, say you're construction first, you're building 190 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:20.000 a house. I mean I'd be building birdhouses and doghouses first, 191 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:23.200 and it worked my way to building houses, and that's 192 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:25.000 just the way my mind works, and it was the 193 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:27.679 same way with this when I first learned how to 194 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:30.799 become the sketch artist. Police sketch art I was, you know, 195 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.879 cutting my teeth so to speak on smaller cases, you know, 196 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.600 misdemeanor type of cases and such. So when does murder happened? 197 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:41.600 I was, you know, six months out of my first 198 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.159 police sketch arts school, and you know, I was I 199 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:48.039 was trained how to interview people on crime scenes during 200 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:51.240 the academy. It's a very very different interview than you 201 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:55.120 do as a forensic artist and even as a police investigator. 202 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:59.639 And so it happened when I was working on shifts 203 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.519 uniform and you know, I was dealing with traumatized people, 204 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.039 and you know, I was sitting bend a big desk 205 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:08.879 and then uniform, badge and gun and I was just 206 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:13.279 like dripping with authority. And I didn't realize at the 207 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:15.240 time because at the time, you know, it was a 208 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:19.759 police sketch artist. The name important. It was all about 209 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:22.840 the drawing, all about the art. So that's what I 210 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:25.279 was focusing on. Even though you know, my skills are 211 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:27.879 fairly raw. Then I make a draw recognizable faith, but 212 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:31.720 not not the skill level I have now. But but 213 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:34.600 I learned along the way that it was more about 214 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:38.200 the ability to communicate with people, you know, the ability 215 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:41.960 to get them to trust you very quick, and trust 216 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:45.320 you with sharing their fears and their trauma and just 217 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:47.240 how they were scared to death they're going to die 218 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:49.919 or something that they happened to see a traumatic event 219 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:52.639 like someone you know, murdered in front of them. And 220 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:56.279 I realized that, you know, all the authority, the trappings 221 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:58.840 of authority, whether it was like putting a large barrier 222 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:01.320 between me and the person, and you know, you know, 223 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:04.039 wearing you know, an offensive weapon like a gun and 224 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:07.679 having a baton and stuff in that just further you know, 225 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.919 froze people up. It was. It was much different than 226 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:15.879 I do now. I've obviously I've evolved, and so when 227 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:18.720 I developed this sketch, I actually developed two sketches that night. 228 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:21.919 I think that the person was so upset and I 229 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:24.799 didn't quite know how to help them other than the 230 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:29.799 process of getting this drawing down a paper. And it 231 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:33.960 did look like Dwayne McKinney, and it did look like 232 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:37.519 herman jacket. The person eventually figured had done the crime. 233 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:42.440 You know that it hit both marks, so to speak, 234 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:47.279 and of course they were able to exonerate Dwayne McKinney 235 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:51.000 after you know, eighteen years in prison. But if I've 236 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:53.960 learned a lot since then, and I think that anybody 237 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:58.120 who believes it's about the art, they might be partially right. 238 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.360 But really, like I tell people, now, well, you know, 239 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:03.399 I consider on draw three pictures all day. I can 240 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:06.759 go to Disneyland or go on the boardwalk. But if 241 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:09.159 if I, if I make the drawing all about me, 242 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.759 and I become so heavily invested ego wise in it, 243 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:16.159 then it becomes my drawing and it's and so it's 244 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:19.279 not about me, it's about them. So I take great 245 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:22.600 care is to take that time to build a rapport 246 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:25.600 with them, to get to know them quickly, to build 247 00:13:25.639 --> 00:13:28.159 that bridge, and to get in and get out. Because 248 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.320 people do have lives. You have short attention spans, and 249 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:34.039 you have to get them well you can get them, 250 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.879 so to speak, and you get one bite at the apple, 251 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.000 so to speak, and you want to make a good one. 252 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:41.639 And so I do a lot of things differently now 253 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:46.360 in terms of the emphasis I place on the process 254 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.840 and the people aspect of it more so than the 255 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:51.159 artistic angle of it. 256 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:57.440 Now you say the you talk about the goals of 257 00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:58.799 the composite as well. 258 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:03.639 What is the the goal is I'm sorry, the goals 259 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:05.759 that haven't make it look like the person like to 260 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:08.279 resemble the person. It doesn't have to look exactly like them, 261 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.080 but close enough to word it keys something and jump 262 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:17.200 starts something. You know, someone's going to recognize an aspect 263 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:19.879 of that drawing and associated with someone. 264 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:25.960 Is there certain features that I noticed that It seemed 265 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.080 that what you were trying to say was that there 266 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:32.039 were certain features that were remembered by that witness. And 267 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:34.840 of course you talk about the procedure, and maybe I 268 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:37.639 should let you explain that procedure as well. Is how 269 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:41.639 you move ahead? How do you start and how do 270 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:44.600 you move ahead with the witness? I think people don't 271 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:46.360 know any of the process whatsoever. 272 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.240 Sure, it all starts with a handshake. And you know, 273 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:54.519 people come into my office. You know, I go into 274 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:56.559 the room where they're at and I shake their hand 275 00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:58.879 and make eye contact with them and introduce myself and 276 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:02.480 my name is Mike Michael, and I get their name 277 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:06.039 and and and I sit down and start talking to them. 278 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:08.600 And the first thing I do is a developer, for 279 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:11.639 I have to find some sort of common ground, some 280 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:14.120 sort of commonalities, so I kind of know as much 281 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:17.080 as I can about a lot of different things, so 282 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:20.240 I can so I can more easily jump start those conversations. 283 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:23.600 Maybe somebody comes in with, like, you know, a T 284 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:26.159 shirt on, you know, some heavy metal rock band, or 285 00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:28.360 a mom comes in with a key chain that has 286 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:31.200 pictures of her sons and the Little League uniforms and 287 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:33.519 such and and and so I find things that, you know, 288 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.200 that I can quickly associate things I know something about 289 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.480 and start asking them about that. And I give an 290 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:41.720 example in Baltimore, when I was the full time sketch 291 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:44.600 artist there, I had a poster hanging in my office 292 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:47.559 called the Bad Guys, and it was a caricature poster 293 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:50.440 of all the different movie and TV you know, the Sopranos, 294 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:53.360 the Godfather characters and such. And people would come in 295 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:56.159 and they may not be able to remember who the 296 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:58.679 first president United States was, but they, you know, they 297 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:03.080 knew these these culture icons, the gangster so to speak, 298 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:06.080 and they start asking about them and start talking about them, 299 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:07.759 and we're able to talk about the movies and stuff 300 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:10.080 like that, and you can see people start to relax, 301 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:11.879 and after about ten minutes of talking about it, they 302 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:14.639 start relaxing. Then we go in and start talking about 303 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:19.279 the process, explaining and managing their expectations, what what I'm 304 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:21.840 hoping to get from them and what they can offer 305 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:29.159 to me. And then once they you know, once they 306 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:32.519 know the ground rules so to speak, and the expectations, 307 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:34.399 it's almost like you can see it's almost like an 308 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:35.679 air being let out of them, and you can see 309 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:37.960 them just instantly relax and then they want to try 310 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:40.559 because their biggest fear when they come into police stations 311 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:43.519 is this compositive is going to get the wrong person 312 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:48.600 in trouble, when in fact it won't. And so then 313 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:51.480 I have them, you know, talking about the crime. If 314 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:53.559 it's a sexual assault crime, I have them taking up 315 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:55.919 to the up to the edge so to speak, when 316 00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:58.759 the attack occurred, and I leave the I will leave 317 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:00.600 them of having to tell me the goal details to 318 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.480 everything else. And then I have them describe the faithfully 319 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:08.160 and as much detail as they can. And then I 320 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:12.200 showed them a book of facial reference pictures to reinforce 321 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:16.599 what they're telling me, because in memory, the visual part, 322 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:19.920 the recognition part, the ability of people to be able 323 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:23.039 to show you versus tell you is always stronger because 324 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:27.039 people have different educational levels. Different their ability to articulate 325 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.000 is better in some than others. But they can all 326 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:32.839 pick a picture out and show you. Once they do that, 327 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:35.720 then then I sketch the picture I get much like 328 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:39.160 building a house, you sketch the framework out. Then I 329 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:42.799 let them view that and that's the refinement process where 330 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:44.680 they get a chance to tell me no, you know, 331 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:47.599 you need to change this or that's good. And once 332 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.519 they get all done with that, then we render it 333 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:51.400 in and a couple of times during the final running 334 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:54.640 of process, I show them the composite just to make 335 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:56.839 sure I'm not going off in the wrong direction. And 336 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.640 then when I'm done, I give them one last get 337 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:04.279 their feedback, thanks them for taking part in the process, 338 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:07.480 because I want them to walk away feeling good about 339 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:09.880 what they did. I want them to feel like they 340 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:12.519 were able to help they feel good about it. And 341 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:14.359 then I give it to the detective and give them 342 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:18.920 any information I think might be relevant, and I go 343 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.279 on to the next case and wait for the detective 344 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:24.799 to let me know they caught the bad guy. 345 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:28.759 Now, when we talked about the you know, there was 346 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:34.680 obviously a great injustice with Dwayne McKinney, and you did 347 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:39.400 learn some things the hard way with that case, but 348 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:44.160 you advance very quickly because you have some success with 349 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:50.720 the composite drawings that you do offer police enforcement. You 350 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.880 can do this in a timely manner. And also that 351 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:58.480 you said that there is no difference between a child 352 00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:01.119 or an adult, and in fact, sometimes adults are easier 353 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:06.559 to deal with in terms of eliciting a detailed description 354 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:10.839 that's useful for a composite sketch. Why is that? 355 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.759 Actually, I actually I believe that children can be better 356 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:18.519 witnesses in some cases. And the reason I and the 357 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:21.680 reason I say that is because as we go through 358 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:23.920 life is, you know, and become adults. You know, we 359 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:27.359 pick up a variety of uh, you know, biases along 360 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:29.759 the way, and things we like, things we don't like, 361 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.880 and the things that color our perceptions of the truth 362 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.880 sometimes and or things that we see. And so you know, 363 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:40.680 very young children don't necessarily have that yet, you know, 364 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:43.200 it's you know, out of the mouths of babes as 365 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:45.279 they say, you know, kids will come up. It's it's 366 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.920 really kind of funny because kids and elderly people have 367 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:50.960 a tendency just to pop off and say stuff, and 368 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:55.400 no one holds them responsible for it because it's very unbiased, 369 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.400 it's very unfiltered. It's just straight out this is what 370 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.640 it is. I use the example of a chair. You know, 371 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:04.920 a child may able to tell you to take a 372 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:07.119 three legged chair. It's okay, it's got three legs, a back, 373 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:10.759 it's a brown, and it's got like a big scratch 374 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:14.519 on the seat, and an adult may give you partial description. 375 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:17.000 Then they may go on about how they don't like brown, 376 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:20.920 they thought the chair was too uncomfortable, and they prefer 377 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.319 fabric and wood, and they started, you know, going off 378 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:27.160 on tangents and stuff. And I think sometimes the child's 379 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:32.559 witness brings information it's still pure and unfiltered that I 380 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.240 think that they shouldn't be discounted as witnesses. 381 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:39.680 With all that, I just kind of introduced this while 382 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:42.440 we're waiting for you to connect in that there has 383 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:45.640 been so much discredit. I just had a program a 384 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:47.680 couple of weeks ago in the Making of a Murderer. 385 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:52.279 Making a Murderer really highlighted that with Penny Bernston that 386 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.880 was raped on the beach and positively identified Stephen Avery, 387 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:03.000 which was then totally a soonerted after eighteen years. So 388 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:06.039 in light of that, I thought, this is fascinating that 389 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:10.559 you were able to get a you know, a composite 390 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:14.599 from a detailed description from a six year old in 391 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:20.680 light of all the discrediting of that eyewitness testimony. So 392 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:24.160 tell us a little bit more about go ahead. 393 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:28.440 No, nokay, go ahead, I'm sorry, t tell me a 394 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.559 little bit. Tell you a little bit about what, well. 395 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:36.480 What you explained the role of memory and accuracy in 396 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:39.039 what you do as well, So tell tell our audience 397 00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:44.400 what exactly your ideas are and what you've seen regarding 398 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:48.319 memory and accuracy in making that composite sketch. 399 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.640 Sure, I can tell you first of all that as 400 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:59.079 much as people you know, demonized and marginalized eyewitness memories 401 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:03.440