WEBVTT 1 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:26.399 Hey, everybody, it's not Tuesday, it's Friday. Welcome to the 2 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:30.640 Giant BombCast Revengeance Podcast. I'm Jeff Grub from giant bomb 3 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:32.920 dot Com and I have a full crew with me, 4 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:34.960 starting with two more. 5 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:36.439 Who's saying, Tam, how are you doing? 6 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:42.359 How is Chelsea Handler? Is Chelsea Handler a good one? 7 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:48.200 I remember recently she was speaking ten fifteen years ago. 8 00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:51.719 She definitely felt she was everywhere, but fell off hard. 9 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:59.320 Yeah, gotcha, Samantha, Oh damn, you gotta stop. How is 10 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:00.960 Samantha Bee Show? I never watched. 11 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:03.039 Mike Drucker was executive producer on it, so I have 12 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:04.959 not seen it. But there had to be some funny stuff. 13 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:07.120 A drugs had to be had to be something to it. Yeah, 14 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:08.200 Drucker does good stuff. 15 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:12.760 Oh. We also have Nicki Grayson. Nicki Grayson, how's it going? Hello? 16 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:19.079 Something I've learned in the last couple of minutes is 17 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:22.640 that my hair is still wet and it's kind of 18 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:25.200 dripping down my back in a way that's kind of unpleasant. 19 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:27.319 Before a podcast, are you, like, you know, before Roman 20 00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:29.959 Reigns comes out and he sprays his hair, you do that? 21 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:32.799 Not not unlike that? 22 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:33.280 Yeah? 23 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:35.079 That is kind of what I did today. 24 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:37.760 I did hop in this hour and mostly focus on 25 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:41.200 my hair, and then I did this a couple of 26 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.159 times to get it to go. And now see now 27 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:44.239 that shit all over my glasses. 28 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.280 Giant bomb, that's exactly right. Friend of Denim, Dan Reiker, 29 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:50.400 Dan Kerd, how are you doing? 30 00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:53.799 I'm not an enemy of den Denhim. Okay, I'm doing great, 31 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:55.280 but I'm not an enemy of Denim. I don't think 32 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:59.079 I'm wearing No, actually, I'm wearing the like extreme stretchy 33 00:01:59.159 --> 00:01:59.920 motion jeans. 34 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:00.480 Yeah. 35 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:03.040 So I don't know if this is like actual Denim, 36 00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:05.799 but it's like it's like what I think would wear, 37 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:08.000 you know, very stretchy. 38 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:11.360 Yeah, it's the motion engine. Yeah, they have the emotion engine, 39 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:13.240 and they get the motion engine, they put it in jeans, 40 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:14.159 exact very good stuff. 41 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:14.360 Yes. 42 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:16.319 Yes, if you break down a PS three like a 43 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:18.000 a vow, you get stretched jeans. 44 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:22.080 Yeah, and then you can reconsecute it into janes now. Yes. 45 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.280 And then Nathan Grayson with this as well, special guest, 46 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:26.520 thank you for joining us. 47 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:29.240 Nathan Grayson, you have a book I do. It's called 48 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:31.719 Stream Big, The Triumphs and Turmoils of Twitch and the 49 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:33.960 Stars Behind the screen and it will be out on 50 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:36.000 the eighteenth. You can pre order it now if you 51 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:38.199 really want to, or you can just wait and order it. 52 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:38.759 It's your call. 53 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:41.000 A really right now? 54 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:42.800 Is the on your wall? 55 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:43.800 Nice? 56 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:44.520 Look at that? 57 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:47.719 Yeah? And then I camera immediately goes out of focus. Fantastic, 58 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:48.080 there it is. 59 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:48.599 That's okay. 60 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:51.560 I was reading it last night. You had the publisher 61 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.719 sent me a copy. I appreciate that. Uh, it's what 62 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:55.120 the fuck? 63 00:02:55.719 --> 00:02:56.000 I know? 64 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:59.120 Right, just specifically block you all out from getting the 65 00:02:59.159 --> 00:02:59.840 copy too. 66 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:03.360 Does anyone else want one? I might know. I get that. 67 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:04.479 I read that. 68 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:07.520 I felt really bad about that. That actually really hurt me, so. 69 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:10.000 And then I said, you'd be quiet, let's be look 70 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:13.199 at my book. I'm trying to read here. It's like 71 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:15.560 really starts off. I like, oh, yeah, God, this is 72 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:17.840 such a dramatic, dramatic story of like all of this 73 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:20.360 a small community of people who are just doing a 74 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:22.759 thing they really liked, and then how it blew up 75 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:26.120 and of course, like all things, gets subsumed by a conglomerate, 76 00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:28.400 and how it has to change to meet the needs 77 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:29.919 of the new master, and how the people who are 78 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:32.039 there from the beginning feel about that and how they 79 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:34.159 still just hire from the community. Like, there's so many 80 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:37.919 fascinating aspects. Uh, I guess what, Let's do the basic 81 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:39.879 questions first, like what prompted you to want to start 82 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:42.280 writing about this other than of course you've been following 83 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:44.080 this for a very long time, right. 84 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:45.800 Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a big part of it. 85 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:48.599 And then the other part is that I think that 86 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:50.240 there are you know, there are a number of books 87 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:53.520 about like different platforms, different social media platforms. There are 88 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:56.639 books at this point about YouTube, about TikTok, you know, 89 00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:59.560 about pretty much all the big ones, but they're very 90 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:02.319 focused on the platforms themselves. They're like, you know, a 91 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:05.800 history of this platform, a whatever, this platform. I wanted 92 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:08.000 to do something that was more creator focused, and so 93 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.120 from my book, the first chapter is kind of like 94 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:12.639 an overview of Twitch in its history, but even then 95 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:15.039 through the eyes of one creator, that being DJ Wheed, 96 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:17.519 who's a person who used to be a very early 97 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:19.279 live streaming creator went on to become one of the 98 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:22.560 first Twitch employees. And then every other chapter is about 99 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:25.920 just like a particular creator and their life and the 100 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:27.720 way that the platform has shaped them and the way 101 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:30.519 that they in turn have shaped the platform, and so 102 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:32.360 it's much more people focused, I think, than a lot 103 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:34.759 of these books tend to be. And I kind of 104 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:36.920 wanted to tell the story that way because I think 105 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:39.199 that the story of Twitch is very much one about 106 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:41.560 its creators. It wouldn't be what it is without creators. 107 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:44.120 So much of its early growth and development was centered 108 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:47.639 around the company hiring people from its own community and 109 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:50.879 like making decisions around what they wanted, and so much 110 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:53.680 of the controversy that has ensued since has been about 111 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:56.360 people saying, Hey, you guys have kind of lost your way. 112 00:04:56.519 --> 00:04:59.360 You've stopped caring so much about creators. You've started doing 113 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:02.600 everything in service of profit and what Amazon wants from you, 114 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:05.920 and that's not going over as well. So I wanted 115 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:09.000 to sort of explore the material impacts of that on 116 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:10.839 the people who are on that platform. 117 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:13.120 Yeah, and it's got to help that, like, you know, 118 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.560 by talking to the people who are part of the community. 119 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.000 A lot of them are big names, stars, people that 120 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:22.319 have a history that is somewhat known by their audience. 121 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:24.560 But maybe there's some aspects or some thoughts they they've 122 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:27.480 had that you can elucidate a little bit better. Were 123 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.279 there some things that surprised you to learn when you 124 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:32.319 were talking to these streamers and these creators. 125 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:35.079 Yeah, and a lot of cases because also, like what 126 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:38.120 I ended up doing for this book is I for 127 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:40.600 every like big interview, for the ones that kind of 128 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:44.439 are the backbone of each chapter, I did them in person, 129 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:47.399 and usually like at that person's house or like in 130 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:51.319 a place that represented their place of work. Essentially, because 131 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:53.639 I think that when it comes to Twitch and other 132 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:57.360 platforms like it, you can have this misconception that you 133 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:00.839 understand or know everything about like your favorite creator. So 134 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:02.639 I mean you see them for like, you know, depending 135 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:04.199 on how much you watch, it could be up to 136 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:06.399 eight ten hours per day. A lot of people don't 137 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:07.839 watch that much. They probably tune in for a couple 138 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:12.120 hours here and there. But you know, doing that, you're like, Okay, well, 139 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:15.720 I see all the work they do, I know them, 140 00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:18.920 and therefore I don't need to know anymore. But there's 141 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:21.800 a ton of invisible labor that goes into live streaming 142 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:24.639 and content creation. There's a lot of stuff that happens 143 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:26.560 in the background that you don't see when the cameras 144 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:28.680 are off, and I wanted to sort of be able 145 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:30.639 to capture some of that and show what that's like 146 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.000 and all of the different like other people that contribute 147 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:35.040 to that, not just the streamer. So I also ended 148 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:37.519 up talking to like people's friends and families and their 149 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:40.800 moderators and their editors and their staff and you know, 150 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.240 pretty much anyone that I could get in front of 151 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:47.959 a microphone. And then like, through that, I learned a 152 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.600 lot of surprising stuff, Like I mean, I uh, one 153 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:52.519 of the chapters is about Hassan Piker, who I'm sure 154 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:55.879 you all know and follow. When I was at his place, 155 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:59.240 his mom happened to be around, and so he was 156 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:03.040 kind of cage on the subject of swattings and things 157 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:06.199 of that nature. Right, But you know, Hassan has a 158 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:08.480 pretty well known house. It was the source of some 159 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:10.639 controversy a couple of years back because people were like 160 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:16.240 a leftist buying a house, that's impossible, And so he 161 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:18.680 wouldn't really talk about that. And so I was like, Hey, 162 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.360 Hassan's mom, will you talk about this? And she was like, oh, absolutely, 163 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:24.920 I'll tell you all suse the stories. And I was like, great, 164 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.639 Hassan's going to be mad about this, but it still 165 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.800 works for me. So when you're. 166 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:32.439 Building like the structure of the book, and you like 167 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:34.800 begin to like have a piece together these the things 168 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:37.120 you're learning from these interviews. Do you begin building like 169 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:41.560 an overarching narrative of like here's the beginning of Twitch 170 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:44.160 and the people that were there at the beginning, and 171 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:46.800 here's how these things have changed and got complicated over 172 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:49.720 over time. Like how does that narrative reveal itself to you? 173 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:53.120 I think it depends on the particular creator, because what 174 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:54.680 I tried to do is get a mix of people 175 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.399 who are like instrumental to Twitch's growth and you know, 176 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:00.560 sort of represented like landmark figures on the platform, and 177 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:02.680 then like you know, again one person who was kind 178 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:05.319 of who worked for the company and was part of it. 179 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:07.680 And then I also wanted like smaller creators too, so 180 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:11.199 people who have existed on it not necessarily seen instance success, 181 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:15.639 and in one particular instance, like you know, grinded really 182 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.480 hard for success, like kind of had this viral moment 183 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:21.120 and then tried to capitalize on that and like literally 184 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:24.480 broke her body in the process. I wanted to sort 185 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:27.879 of represent all of these different ways that being a 186 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:30.319 creator on a platform like Twitch, one that more than 187 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:34.720 anything wants your time can unfold, and so it was 188 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:37.879 really more just like I set down and I talked 189 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:41.000 to them, and then over the course of cause again, 190 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:42.919 like the initial interviews for each of these chapters were 191 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:46.080 like five hours long, so just you know, these things 192 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:49.000 would reveal themselves to me as we conversed. You know, 193 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:51.279 there'd be times where I was like talking to somebody 194 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:52.759 and thinking like, oh, there it is, like that's the 195 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:54.799 that's the opening scene of the book. That's the opening 196 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:57.360 scene of the chapter. I got it, and. 197 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:00.440 That's yeah, I could totally see how that works out 198 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:04.639 that way. Sometimes when when you talk to these people 199 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.840 and when you begin like seeing the common themes, what 200 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:11.240 do you get the sense that people believe is the 201 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:13.919 future of Twitch from this point like going forward, like 202 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:15.759 how are people feeling about it now? 203 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:18.799 I mean, I I don't think people are feeling super 204 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:21.399 great about Twitch at the moment for a few reasons. 205 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:24.919 One of them is that at this point Amazon really 206 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:28.960 wants Twitch to turn a profit. It remains unprofitable, and 207 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:31.799 so as a result, Twitch is taken to you know, 208 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:35.080 overloading the site with ads, which everybody has been able 209 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.360 to witness that you know, you'd be watching your favorite 210 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:39.679 streamer or like a GDQ run or something, and then 211 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:41.200 you get hit with a two minute ad block out 212 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:44.279 of nowhere and you're like that that that killed all 213 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:46.200 of my enjoyment of this. I'm just angry now. 214 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.720 I actually think it's a good experience personally. 215 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:53.480 Yeah, you're like, thank you, Jeff Bezos. I love so 216 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:56.840 much Tina's pizza roles. I did not know about it. 217 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:02.240 You're telling me that they're making another that's crazy. 218 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:03.759 To find. 219 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:05.720 That would be a great way for them to sell cars, 220 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.240 to be like, this is the final Honda. We're never 221 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:16.120 making another Honda, and then say, like, just kidding. But yeah, 222 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:19.159 So there's that, And there's also the fact that Amazon is, 223 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:21.039 i think with Twitch, trying to cut its way to 224 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:23.039 profitability too. So in the past couple of years they've 225 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:25.480 laid off almost a thousand people from a company that 226 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:27.720 previously had a little bit over two thousand, so that's 227 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:30.879 like almost half the company. And so as a result, 228 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:33.200 I think Twitch is kind of just in this holding 229 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:35.720 pattern and they've been releasing like little new features where 230 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:38.720 they can, but nothing that has genuinely changed the platform. 231 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:42.399 And quite some time they're also like really focused on 232 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:44.679 this one platform called or this one feature called guest 233 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:47.159 Star that no one really seems to care about or use. 234 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:49.799 It's just all this stuff where people look at Twitch 235 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:52.840 and they say, Okay, it's kind of languishing. It's in 236 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:55.559 a holding pattern. It doesn't seem like Amazon wants to 237 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:57.799 really grow or expand it anymore or help it find 238 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:01.960 new audiences, and so it's sort of like best case scenario, 239 00:11:02.039 --> 00:11:05.120 it kind of stays here. Absolute worst case scenario. Amazon 240 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:07.639 eventually says, Okay, this is not working for us anymore. 241 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:11.200 Let's put this in what Amazon calls maintenance mode, where 242 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:14.320 they basically wind down a product and they stop updating it. 243 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:16.399 They just keep it sort of functional, but they don't 244 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:20.120 do anything with it anymore, the bare minimum essentially. 245 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:22.799 Well, last time I last time I checked, they were 246 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:27.200 trying to pivot into like weird TikTok area with a 247 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.480 redesign of the app. Because I watch a lot of Twitch, 248 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:33.399 I try my best now to stay away from the 249 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:35.519 app because it is atrocious. 250 00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:40.159 Everyone hates the stories stories like functionality. 251 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:43.559 Yeah that and also like they formatted the main page 252 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:46.279 to be like a swipe up to go through your 253 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:51.279 different and it's awful because it's all encapsulated and like 254 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:56.639 you open the app, if you press it will give 255 00:11:56.679 --> 00:11:58.799 you a stream Like let's say I'm watching Giant Bomp, 256 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:01.159 It'll give you a streaming me. Then if I press 257 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:03.440 Giant Bomb, if I hit the stream bind, it opens 258 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:05.919 another instance of it. And you're like, yeah, this is 259 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.440 the dumbest thing, And it's it's the kind of thing 260 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:12.639 where I feel like if one person tested it, they 261 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:14.600 would know this is bad. So it just makes me 262 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:17.559 feel like no one there is paying any attention or 263 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:20.759 what's going on. It's like close to unusable on a 264 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:22.799 on a mobile phone. Yeah. 265 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:25.559 Well, it's also that classic issue of you know, there's 266 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.360 still plenty of people at the company that care, but 267 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:30.799 a lot of the people that power don't really use 268 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.039 the platform I understand it or give a shit in 269 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:36.320 ways that would prevent something catastrophic like that from happening. 270 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:38.360 They and then they hear something it'll be like TikTok 271 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:40.639 and they're like, well, that sounds good, so let's do that. 272 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:43.879 Yeah. I mean, that's also like an interesting situation because 273 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.240 there was clamor from the community for that kind of 274 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:49.799 a feature. There's this moment where when they were putting 275 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:52.799 all of the ads or like, you know, when they 276 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:56.759 were flooding the flooding Twitch with ads, people were like, well, 277 00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:59.919 what you could do is create a stories like function 278 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:01.759 and put it in the app and then put ads 279 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:04.840 on that, because then you're not missing anything live necessarily, 280 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:07.000 you just put it over people's VODs and their clips 281 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.639 and so this is a version of that. But I 282 00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:12.840 think it's much more front and center within the app 283 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:15.279 than people wanted it to be. And as as Tomorrow 284 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:18.279 was saying, like it takes over the entire interface that 285 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:21.080 you experienced by default, Like you just you're in this 286 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:24.759 like river of stories essentially, and yeah, it's just it's 287 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:27.279 not well done. It's one of many gaffs that they've 288 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:30.799 had in the past year or two. Yeah, it's it's. 289 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:35.279 The story of everything right now, rightfications and then make 290 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:37.159 it worse to make more money. Yeah, we can make 291 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:38.279 We can make a little bit more money if we 292 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:39.200 make it a little bit worse. 293 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:42.320 I got a question about I mean, like, how how 294 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:45.120 much of the future I guess you kind of answered 295 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:47.799 the question kind of, but how much of the kind 296 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:50.879 of roadmap for Twitch have you been able to glean 297 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:55.320 from these interviews? Because I know most recently, like they 298 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:58.759 had that that time where they were just throwing money 299 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:01.679 at various careers. Hasan's one of them. He openly talks 300 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.360 about having a very specific contract that he no longer has. 301 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:07.840 He Yeah, no longer has it, so there's no more 302 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.559 top of the ad breaks. It feels like that's part 303 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.440 of the kind of step away from trying to make 304 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.480 Twitch happen. Have you did you get any sense from 305 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:21.320 the creators of where Twitch is going or do you 306 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.279 have did you get any sense on how dedicated these 307 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.519 Twitch creators are going to be to the platform itself, 308 00:14:27.559 --> 00:14:29.600 because some of them have now moved to multi streaming, 309 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:31.960 you know, but then some of them are like coming 310 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:34.679 back to Twitch, like I think Ludwig or someone like 311 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:35.480 that recently. 312 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:36.720 Can returned to Twitch. 313 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:39.159 Yeah, and like said he wouldn't stream elsewhere. 314 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:43.200 Yeah, So a couple of things happened here. One is 315 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:45.600 that a lot of those contracts that big streamers had, 316 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.039 because you know, to be clear for the audience, there's 317 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.200 a period of time where big name streamers, people like 318 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:53.720 Hasan or Pokemon which she was still Twitch exclusive, or 319 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:56.759 even let Wig ever have one he might have he 320 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:00.320 got a YouTube YouTube. Yeah, they had these multi million 321 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.000 dollar contracts that were you know, keeping them exclusive to 322 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.879 particular platforms. But that was kind of like the meta 323 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:09.960 in the like twenty twenty to twenty twenty two to 324 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:13.759 twenty twenty three era. And that's in part because YouTube 325 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.080 emerged as a competitor to Twitch. They were directly trying 326 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:18.039 to steal or not steal, but you know, cultivate an 327 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:21.360 audience like Twitches, and so they started pulling over creators 328 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:23.440 from Twitch by saying, hey, we'll give you millions of 329 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:25.399 dollars if you come over here, even though like our 330 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:28.240 audience for live streaming is not quite as big and 331 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:30.039 you might lose some of your audience in the transition, 332 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:32.000 will more than make up for that by giving you 333 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:34.480 all this money. And so a lot of creators did it, 334 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:36.720 and as a result twhich was like, well, we got 335 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.039 to do something now. And so Twitch already had like 336 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:41.519 some exclusivity contracts in place, but the amount that they 337 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:43.919 were paying for those went way up and it became 338 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:47.279 this bidding war. And because of the way that streaming works, 339 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:51.679 these platforms were not making that amount of money back 340 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.879 on those creators, Like ads and subscriptions were not making 341 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.279 millions of dollars, and so it was more about like 342 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:00.720 clout or prestige. It was to be able to say 343 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:03.480 we have these particular people, therefore you should be over 344 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.519 here watching our platform, not the other one. But then 345 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.600 everyone kind of collectively realized that they were overpaying for streamers, 346 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:15.039 and so as contracts expired in the past couple of years, 347 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:16.000 they just let them. 348 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.360 Lapse or they just shut down their entire platform. It's 349 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:20.320 like no more Mixer. 350 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:22.919 Well yeah, yeah, Mixer was I mean, that was just 351 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:25.840 a disaster because Microsoft owned that they theoretically had the 352 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.039 money to keep it going. They had made some big 353 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:30.639 deals people like Ninja and Shroud, and then not even 354 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:32.919 a year after they made those deals, which were set 355 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:35.360 for two years, they're like, never mind, we give up, 356 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:37.039 pull the play and they paid. They paid, They paid 357 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:37.399 the money. 358 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.480 But it's like clearly they looked at the numbers very 359 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:42.000 quickly and were like, oh, we did an oopsie, man, 360 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:43.559 we did We didn't do this very good. 361 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:45.879 Yeah. Yeah. It's also just really hard to make money 362 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:49.320 on live streaming in general, because a platform like Twitch, 363 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:52.639 as it expands, as it gains more users, it also 364 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:54.960 becomes more expensive to run. Like this is one of 365 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:56.480 the things that calculator. 366 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:58.720 There's a calculator, like the live streaming cost calculator. Is 367 00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:01.559 that thing accurate? Like how many minutes for how many 368 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.639 people watch or whatever? I'd like you could do a 369 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:07.960 little calculation it says, oh, that stream cost Twitch forty dollars. 370 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.240 For a couple hours. That's almost certainly Napkin math. I 371 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:16.319 doubt that it's like fully accurate, but it is generally correct. Yeah. Like, 372 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:18.519 as as a platform like Twitch grows, it becomes more 373 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:21.480 expensive to run, and as a result, a company like 374 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:24.079 Amazon has to find new ways to monetize it. Now 375 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.799 there's some other like you know, Amazon is also making 376 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:28.640 up the math as it goes. So like, is Twitch 377 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:31.799 profitable is it not? It depends on how you decide 378 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.359 where Twitch is making money. There's a lot of tech 379 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:38.160 Amazon uses that Twitch originally developed, and now Amazon charges 380 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:41.119 Twitch to use that tech internally. That's so that's. 381 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:49.119 Yeah, yeah, what I My biggest worry is Amazon will 382 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:51.680 do what it did to Twitch to what it did 383 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:55.240 to Comixology, where they just like stripped it of any 384 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:59.559 sort of presence and and kind of like any independence 385 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:03.359 and comics Oology no longer exists. It's just the kind 386 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.720 of kindle. It's like folded into kindle, and it's one 387 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:10.319 of the worst reading experiences for digital comics that I've 388 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:12.599 ever seen. And my fear is, as much as I 389 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:15.799 think Twitch is not great to use right now, it's 390 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:17.720 going to be much worse when they just jam it 391 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:21.880 into like a Prime video or something like that. So 392 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.799 it's a big concern about that. One other question I had, Sorry, 393 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:26.400 go ahead. 394 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.200 Yeah, no, I was just going to say, Twitch is 395 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:30.920 also like where the community is right and so if 396 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.920 Amazon ever pulls the plug or degrades it so much 397 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.680 that people have nowhere to go or they end up leaving, 398 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:40.240 then that that thing that makes Twitch special, that reason 399 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:42.160 that like a lot of streamers have returned to Twitch, 400 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.559 for example, after being on YouTube and cultivating audience, is 401 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:47.920