Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the All Eighties Movies Podcast, the
podcast where we talk about the blockbusters, the flops, and
everything in between from one of the freshest decades from
movies to nineteen eighties. I'm your host Bill bent Long.
With me on this journey revisiting eighties movies is my
co host Jason Massek. Hello, Jason.
Speaker 2: Don't you know what it means to be a marine dad?
Ever since I was a kid, I've wanted this. I've
wanted to serve my country, and I want to go.
I want to go to Vietnam and I'll die there
if I have to.
Speaker 1: That's right, Listeners, we are discussing with spoilers of Plenty,
the nineteen eighty nine Vietnam drama born on the fourth
of July. It was produced by Explained Productions adgistered it
by Universal Pictures. The movie stars Tom Cruz, Kirre Sedgwick,
and Willem Dafoe. Co written and directed by Oliver Stone,
this movie is rated R with a running time of
two hours and twenty five minutes. This movie was nominated
for eight Oscars, winning two for Best Film Editing and
Best Director. The movie is based on the nineteen seventy
six autobiography of ron Kovic, also titled Born on the
Fourth of July. This movie kicks off our Summer at
the Cinema series, where all the movies we discussed this
month take place at some point during the summer. So
what is this movie about? What's on the box? If
you grew up in the nineteen eighties and went to
your local video store to rent this movie, or in
this case, in the nineties, you would find this description
on the back of the VHS box. It is what's
in the box? Take it away.
Speaker 2: Jason Tom Cruise delivers a riveting and unforgettable portrayal of
Vietnam veteran Ron Kovic in Oliver Stone's Academy Award winning masterpiece.
Based on a true story, the acclaimed film follows the
young Kovic from a zealous teen who eagerly volunteers for
the v Vietnam War, to an embittered veteran paralyzed from
the midchest down. Deeply in love with his country, Kovic
returned to an environment vastly different from the one he left,
and struggled before emerging as a brave new voice for
the disenchanted.
Speaker 1: Born in the fourth of July. So that was what's
in the box. Let's move on to our eighty snapshot
as we highlight some of the creative forces from this movie. Jesus,
who you got?
Speaker 2: That would be Kira Sedgwick for me, who portrays Donna
in Born on the fourth of July. Getting right to
her eighties snapshot, she does sixteen episodes of Another World,
the soap opera from eighty two to eighty three. Then
she makes her acting debut in a film called War
in Love in nineteen eighty five, and most importantly, I
think Bill would agree, she is in an episode of
Miami Vice. That's right. In nineteen eighty five, she plays
the character Sarah McPhail in an episode called Phil the Shill.
Then she does also do an episode of Amazing Stories
in eighty six called Lemon Sky in eighty eight Kansas
in eighty eight as well, and then this Born on
the fourth of July and eighty nine, which by some
is considered her first brush with stardom. Other notables from
Kira Sedgwick after the eighties, she does singles in ninety two,
Something to Talk About, ninety five Murder in the first
ninety five phenomenon in ninety six, lots of TV movies
and episodes of TV series Afterword. She did ban On
a Ledge in twenty twelve. She's probably best known, however,
for starring in one hundred and nine episodes of The
Closer from five to twenty twelve, for which she won
a Primetime Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actress in twenty ten.
She does more episodic TV, everything from Brooklyn ninety nine
to the show Call Your Mother and the Summer I
Turned Pretty. And here's a little trivia. She was three
months pregnant with her son, Travis Bacon when she completed
filming on the born of fourth of July and eighty nine,
then returned to work after giving birth to Travis to
begin filming Mister and Missus Bridge in nineteen ninety. And yes,
it is well known, or somewhat at least, that she
has been married to mister Kevin Bacon since nineteen eighty
eight and they do have two children together.
Speaker 1: Cara Cedric one degree from Kevin Bacon. Well said, Okay,
so I have co writer and director alver Stone, who
was born in New York in nineteen forty six. In
nineteen sixty seven, Stone enlisted in the United States Army
during the Vietnam War. He served from nineteen sixty seven
to nineteen sixty eight and was twice wounded in action.
For his service, he received military honors, including a Bronze Star,
the Purple Heart and Air Metal, and the Combat Infantry Badge.
In nineteen seventy four, Stone would write and direct his
first feature, the nineteen seventy four horror movie Seizure. His
next screenplay would win Stone his first OSCAR for Best
Writing Screenplay based on material from another medium. It was
the nineteen seventy eight prison drama Midnight Express, based on
the book by the same name. In the eighties, Stone
would write screenplays for Fi Conan, The Barbarian, Scarface, You're
the Dragon, eight Million Ways to Die. He would also
write and direct nineteen eighty one's The Hand, nineteen eighty
six Salvador, in which he was nominated for an Oscar
for a Screenplay, and then, of course, nineteen eighty six
is Platoon, which we covered in season three. Stone won
Best Director and was nominated for his screenplay for that film.
Next would be nineteen eighty seven's Wall Street, followed by
nineteen eighty eight's Talk Radio and would close out the
decade with Born on the Fourth of July. Other notable
movies of Oliver Stone would be The Doors JFK and
Natural Born Killers co writer, director, and producer Oliver Stone,
and that would lead us to our earliest memories. What
are our earliest memories of the fourth of July? Jason
kick it off for us?
Speaker 2: Well, I was sixteen when this movie came out the
Christmas of eighty nine, junior in high school, and I'm
pretty sure I saw this one in the theater with
my friends. I can't be certain of that, however, Now, regardless,
one hears the buzz at the time through reviews on
television or in the paper, and I was already sold
on Tom Cruise at the time because of risky business,
top gun, cocktail, rain man, et cetera. So I got
to see this right, and I did, And my memories
are somewhat vague. I recall knowing it was an Ali
Stone film, and having seen Platoon, that this would probably
be another weighty film, a heavy subject. And I recall
thinking that Cruise's performance was worthy of the praise that
I had read or heard about previous and that yeah,
it was a tough film to watch. I recall the
sequence in Vietnam near the beginning of the film, and
I remembered care Sedgwick being extremely likable. But at that
time I felt it was a little slow for me
and my sensibilities as a teenager and looking forward to
those brainless action films of the time. And anyway, I
clearly hadn't had a historical grasp on the content or
real life events of this film other than the fact
that my own father flew in the war, and from
outward appearances and from the viewpoint of a sixteen year
old kid, he seemed to have adjusted pretty well afterward,
But that was naive again, teenage point of view I had.
I didn't have an understanding of the tumultuous era it
was for our country that was a little before my time.
I didn't live it, and I'm not going to pretend
I even know the weight of it now or the
depth of it now, but I certainly didn't then, and
so I didn't have an investment in it other than
respecting the direction of Oliverstone and of course the John
Williams score, because I was such a big fan of his.
So honestly, I was really interested to see how I
felt about this movie today because I would possibly have
a little more empathy and connection as an adult with
some life experience and a little more knowledge of history.
What are your earliest memories? Bill Bant?
Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, the first time I saw this was
freshman year of college. At the time, I still wasn't
a big Tom Cruise fan, which would, as I've joked,
Days of Thunder is the one that for some reason
I was like, oh, you know what, I kind of
like Tom Cruise now, so of all movies of his
to become a fan of. But at school, they would
have Wednesday Blockbuster Night, which was remember back in the day,
when a movie come out in theater. After I would
do his run, you'd usually have to wait up two
years for it to come out on video, maybe two
years to come out on cable. So on campus they
would show these movies basically after theatrical run and before
they came out on videos, so it would be probably
the last time you had a chance to watch it
on the big screen. And this was on its play schedule,
and they'd have these movies basically first run movies every
Wednesday night, and I was there every Wednesday either go
with my roommate, and then he had a friend that
was an ROTC. His name was Chad. And then Chad
brought a friend along who we've mentioned on this podcast
every once in a while, Tom McKenzie. That was the
first time I met Tom McKenzie was through Wednesday Blockbusters.
So that was the first time I saw Born the
fourth of July. You know, I knew with Oliver Stone
making Platoon and what its impact was winning Best Picture,
but because it was cruise and the material, it was
a tough watch. I wasn't that into it, so I
kind of just left it there. I haven't watched it since,
so this is interesting to me to go back again
for the first time now in thirty some years, to
watch it and see what I think about it.
Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more. Bill Bent, I had the same exact sentiment.
I was thinking, Wow, I have not seen this probably
for about the same time span, and now that I
think about it, maybe I had only just seen it once.
I know I had only seen it once in its entirety,
but I don't even know if i'd seen clips or
little pieces of it afterwards. So yeah, it was almost
as if we were watching it with fresh eye then,
so this will be good to talk about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so let's get into initial thoughts. Then,
what are your initial thoughts watching Born the fourth of
July all these years later?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, let's get into it. You know, this is
the second part of the Oliverstone Vietnam trilogy, the other
two being, of course, Bill had mentioned Platoon in nineteen
eighty six, which we covered, and then Heaven and Earth
in ninety three, which I have to admit I've never seen.
Have you seen Heaven and Earth? Bill? No, I'm not, Okay,
may have to check that out. Being the completests that
we are, I don't know why I just said that.
I don't know if we're completest anyway. As soon as
this film begins Born on the fourth of July, I
was already anticipating the score by John Williams, and it
didn't disappoint. Sweeping, swelling, epic, heartbreaking. I love this music.
Even before it started, I could hear the theme in
my head because although I hadn't watched this film in
several several years, I've listened to the JAD hits repeatedly,
so I knew this music now, not just the music here,
but I wanted to shout out the soundtrack and Bill Bant.
One thing that just jumped out to me was that
Vietnam movies always have great soundtracks because of the era,
because of that time in music and everything that was
happening within the music industry at that time as well.
So just a great, great soundtrack here. We get major
needle drops like a hard Brain's Gonna fall, Born on
the Bayou, browne Eyed Girl, American Pie, My Girl, Soldier Boy,
Venus moon River. Just great music in this movie all around.
So getting to the film itself, I do love the
opening ten minutes or so pure Americana in the late fifties,
early sixties and beyond, and just love the glow of it.
I do want to take a moment here to give
the cinematographer of this film a real shout out. Bob
Richardson collaborator with Oliver Stone and Scorse and Tarantino over
the years, and he was nominated for this and he
had won three Oscars for Best Cinematography and also fun
fact for us. Bill Bant the gaffer on this film
and also would be known as a chief lighting technician
for Bob Richardson, is Ray Peshk credited as Ray Ray
Team Peshk on this who we were lucky enough to
work with on two of our short films, Yes, Overcards
and Desolate Road.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that he worked with Stone. That's crazy. Yeah,
of all the stories he told you, I don't remember
him ever mentioning.
Speaker 2: Yep, he was ar Bob Richardson's right hand man for
a lot of shoots and so thus working with huge directors.
And then Ray Peshk himself was our DP, our director
of photography on our short films, and clearly because of
his experience as a gaffer, knew how to light our
set and location quite well and quite quickly. Yes, a
good dude, funny guy, vibrant, had a lot of personality.
Good dude. But I just wanted to say the point
being this film looks fantastic and it is lit fantastic,
So credit to both Bob and Ray. Hey how about
a young Tom Cruise embraces love This look from Tom
Cruise in the beginning of this movie as he's coming
of age and this is a few years after Top
Gun and Tom Cruise looks even younger to me. Granted
there's some makeup but men, I was like Jase, he
still's got a baby face in this movie. I have
a question for you, Bill Bant, Is this the most
connected we've seen Tom Cruise with another woman in a film?
Speaker 1: Yes, I was thinking that too.
Speaker 2: He has been intimate, you know, there's kissing scenes, et cetera,
not overtly sexual scenes. But here what is missing I
think in his romantic relationships within films has been a
connectivity or a chemistry. Really for me personally, that's my opinion.
But here I think he he's got real chemistry with
Kira Cedgwick, which I appreciated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe risky business.
Speaker 2: He's got some chemistry with a Rebecca de Marney for sure.
That's a good point. Yeah, I glad you brought that up.
Speaker 1: But I mean, considering his filmography, the fact that we
could probably name him all in one hand. Yeah, true,
And he did movies Nicole Kidman that sho the popped
up first and it didn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, good point. Anyway, let's talk about Tom Cruise
for a moment. For me, this is a big initial thought.
His performance really carries the whole movie. I'll have more
to say at the end of my initial thoughts, but
I think he's excellent in this, really, really quite good.
I've always been of the opinion that he was a
great actor, but this is a movie where you can
see a lot of his internal conflict. There is so
much going on within his face, but none of it
is overacting. It is subtle reactions to everyone's reaction to him,
especially after he incurs the disability and comes back from
Vietnam and he's in the wheelchair. How he handles how
everyone else sees him it's quite something, and how he
internalizes it and then does let it out emotionally in
various scenes. So I'm a big fan of him in
this movie as far as his acting, Chops, how did
you feel about his performance overall?
Speaker 1: I think most of us consider Tom Cruise a movie star,
but in this movie, he's a movie actor. Yeah, And
that was one of the definitely big impressions I got
of rewatching this. I'm like, Yeah, this guy can act
if he needs to. He likes to make popcorn films,
which is great, you know, we enjoy then, But he
can act and he does it quite well in this film.
Speaker 2: I agree. And yeah, he over this span from mid
to late eighties all the way up through the two thousands,
had worked with so many huge directors and was very
calculating in his approach. But then yeah, as of late
he has chosen to do the popcorn films like The
Mission Impossible films, which are fantastic and we're huge fans.
I can't get enough. I hope he keeps doing them forever.
It seems like he will somehow, some way. But here
I've always been a fan of Like his work in
rain Man, Color of Money, I think he's quite good
as a total flake, will you know so? But here
you can see he did the work. You really can
see he did the work. Moving on, here's the film
gets going. It's immediate that there are a lot of
other actors in this movie besides Tom Cruise, a lot
of other familiar faces, many from Stone's first Vietnam film, Platoon.
Lots of crossover there, but overall, what a Murderers Row.
An incredible cast of character actors and supporting actors. We've
got Kira Sedgwick as aforementioned Raymond J. Berry, Caroline Kava,
Jerry Levine, Frank Wally at Lauder, Michael Wincott, Tom Sizemore,
Willem Dafoe, Steven Billy and Daniel Baldwin, Goten, Jason Gedrick,
Josh Evans, Lily Taylor's in this as well, Tom Barringer,
both John c. McGinley and Wayne Knight have appearances. Vivica
Fox plays a hooker at some point.
Speaker 1: In this movie. I didn't I don't think you see
her face.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm like, I don't remember seeing her, but she
is credited, and there's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she's at the VA hospital.
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you. And there's cameos and others like I
didn't even cover everyone here, but it's everybody, including Tom
Cruise's cousin who's in there somewhere.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Crazy. So we get all of these reunions in this
from Platoon and you know what reunion jumped out to me,
Bill Bant, the Tom Cruise Jason Gedrick reunion from Risky Business.
Oh yeah, that's right, only because this is kind of
a little tongue in chee because Jason Gendrick is like
on screen for like two seconds in Risky Business. You
see him at the party at the end, right, does
he does he say something? Doesn't he have like one?
Speaker 1: Or I think he done?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It's like, wait, a minute. Jason Kendrick is in
risky business. I remember calling that out. But it is
great to see our Platoon stars in this, such as
will and Defoe and just such a young badass Tom
Behringer as the Marine Corps recrreer. Tom looking sharpen this.
I mean, he's still playing a soldier, but he looks
so different than he does in Platoon cleans up well
here in this film. Usually I mentioned a standout from
the movie. There's so many good actors in this, but
Tom Cruise is really the standout. Beyond that, I want
to give a shout out to Raymond Jay Berry and
Caroline Cova who portray Missus and Missus Kovic, his parents
in this. I thought they were both excellent. We get
these great supporting actors that provide real perspective on the
view of the war from home. So shout out to
Jerry Levine's childhood friend Steve Boyer, who chose to go
to college and starts his own business instead of going
to Vietnam. And I really liked Rocky Carroll, African American
actor who played Willie in the VA hospital who helps
ron Kovic, and he has a line that says like this,
I'm serious, man. It ain't about burning the flag in Vietnam. Man.
We fight for our rights over there. We ain't got
no right at home. It's about Detroit, Newark, man. It's
about racism. Man. So I appreciated him. I appreciated these
supporting actors for giving the perspective that they did in
this movie. I thought that was really smart and they're
all just brilliant. Always been a fan of care Sedgwick.
What do you think, Bill? I just think she exues
a certain warmth and kindness. She's like the cute girl
next door. I think she plays it to a t.
I did find her good in this and very understated.
She did a lot of She definitely does a little
face acting because she's really pining for Ron throughout that
beginning of the film, and Ron is just oblivious to
it until the prem scene, which I'll get into right
and then I kind of wish I saw a little
bit more of her throughout the film.
Speaker 1: What happened?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that was in my complaints too. Some of
these characters we meet, we don't know what happens to them,
where do they go, what happens? So there's a lot
of characters that me that just get dropped off here
and there, and that's about it.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you can call it a Mandela effect,
but I had remembered this differently. I expected more Cara
Cedric a lot more in this movie. I was like, Oh,
she's actually not in this that much. The scenes she's
in she's great. I think as a high schooler she's
adorable and lovable, and then later on as an activist
and protester, very convincing. She's great. I love the scenes
she has with Cruise, but they aren't that many, so
I was surprised by that as well. I always think
of this shot of the soldiers coming over the beach
dunes in Vietnam. The silhouette always impactful, effective, And I
watched this Vietnam sequence, and this is something I should
have mentioned in early memories. I always remember the sequence
because it feels desert, like it's a beach head and
it is unique. And I was like, that's weird. You
don't see any jungle, And sure enough I came across
it in the trivia that it's very unusual to see
a Vietnam movie with no jungle whatsoever. Yeah, you know,
watching This Man the second Fourth of July parade of
the film, just to see how much the country had
changed within a decade was wild. This movie really does
kind of cover the time span pretty well where you're
just like, wow, what a time in our country where
you just see so much change. And I find that
was very impactful, or at least it portrayed it for
you will in this movie. This movie definitely makes you
think about what the holiday means, that being the fourth
of July Independence Day, how we gained our independence, this
country's history with war, how we got into those wars,
how we got out, what was the cost, how many
lives were lost in how many families were destroyed. This
is a thought provoking film to say the least. And
as much as I mean spoiler alert, I overall really
did respect this film and or do respect this film
and enjoyed the viewing experience. I did have some issues.
I mentioned Willem Dafoe earlier, our guy from Platoon. I
thought he was a little under used in this I
love Willem Dafoe, I think he's awesome. I do love
what he has in this movie, but I just want
more of the guy. I just love him. That's just
one little issue. Here's the thing. What does the movie about?
Is it patriotism, idealism, activism, the journey from innocence to experience. Obviously,
this is a movie about innocence lost. It's about understanding
what you're fighting for or against, perspective with age, perspective
through listening, learning from the so called opposition, learning to
understand what you hate, learning to understand why you love
what you love. What real courage and sacrifice means, how
it can mean different things, The strength and courage it
takes to change your way of thinking. When you discover
something you've given your life and your belief to is
not what you believed it to be. It's powerful stuff. Man.
But on the flip side, my take here is that
the movie is a lot about feelings. That it's presenting
a lot of feelings and a lot of temperament versus facts.
And that is perfectly fine. And what I mean by
that is that we know the facts are the facts,
they exist. Of course, there's no debating that at this point.
I'm just saying, in this film, how it's laid out,
we don't get a lot of specifics and the why
and the how, it's a lot of reactions. So it's
a take that I have here where if you're educated
on the Vietnam War, why we entered the conflict, the
political climate, the tumultuous time at home in our own country,
the progressive time it was, the activism and civil rights
and peace movements. This movie's going to resonate if you
aren't educated on it. Then there's certain things that will resonate,
I think, and some that don't, as in ron Kovic's
dealing with his mental and physical traumas, that's one thing,
but not as much as to the why he makes
the turn he does to activism. We do get a
big scene towards the end, and you can see what
kind of cements his turn if you will. And I
mentioned we get a lot of different perspectives from supporting
characters about what's going on and the bullshit lies and
how the government lied, and the result being good boys
are dying thirteen thousand miles away in a place we
don't belong. And we can respect the power of the
anti war or sentiment, but there still feels like something
is missing in the development here and exactly what the
facts were in the information that drove these people to
rise up this way, our people, the people of this country.
So with Ron's journey, we know why he's in pain.
We see him witness the anti war sentiment and protests.
We see him try to find his purpose to live.
We see what the war did to him. But I
guess what I was kind of hoping for more was
an exploration into why he was so angry towards the end,
to really cement him as an activist for the disenchanted.
And at one point you thought you were doing the
right thing, no matter what the sacrifice, this being Ron Kovic,
and then you find out the facts as to why
you now know what you did doesn't have the meaning
behind it you had hoped, and what that does too.
We see Ron's emotional journey on the surface, but I
just could have used a scene or two watching Ron
being educated on the actual facts as to what happened
to help fuel his decision to become this anti war promoter.
I mean, I could go on and on, but what
the film does effectively is really give you a feel
for just how much was freaking happen in our country
at the time. And my dad again was a pilot
in the war. He flew Sea one thirties. He's got
a ton of stories, he lost friends, He's open about
a lot of things, and I do regard him as
a hero, and I try to thank him for his
service when I get the chance. But after watching this film,
I realized I never have asked him about his reaction
to this particular time of in our country in the
anti war movement, or how it made him feel something
I need to do. So just some of my initial thoughts.
Speaker 1: Bill Ban Yeah, I'll be honest, this movie was a
tough watch, just the way these troops were depicted in
the hospital, the way they were depicted it being back home.
And when this movie came out, the war was still
fresh in people's minds. There's still a lot of debate
if we should have been over there. And I think
for me personally, when you look at American history, you
know we did WORL War one, we did War two.
We're doing the right thing. Then we got into the
Korean War, the forgotten War where we tied, and then
in this one where we're asking people to go to
a little country where nobody knew where it was on
the map to stop Calmanism, and half the country was
for half the country was against it. It's really the
first time people were weary of the government. You look
at where we are now in the landscape of government,
and people don't trust it. So even looking at it
from that perspective to today's perspective, I see a lot
of parallels, which kind of stinks. I think Cruise is
really good in it. It was interesting watching the opening
credits and seeing all these names and the credits and
you're like, oh my god, look all these people that
are in it, and so many of our blink and
you miss them kind of rolls. It's I know, you're
asking about why Ron changes the way that he does.
And that's a scary thing too. You think about it.
Here he was eighteen nineteen years old wanting to serve
in his country because his parents served, his grandparents served,
and you just think, hey, that's the right thing to do,
that's what I should do. Should go over there and
fight for my country. I should die for my country.
And then realizing that maybe the government tricked you into going,
tricked all these people into going. The trick is a
bad word, and then you become disillusioned because before you
knew what you were fighting for, and this time you
don't really know what you're fighting for, and you're not
ever trying to reach the objective that they were supposed
to reach in this work. So I think that it
makes it very tough now that we're farther away from
this and can really look back on it in the
history of it, and most people agree that the result
shouldn't have been what it should have been, or should
we even have been over there to begin with, And
that's just what makes it so upsetting. And then there's
that scene when he's in the parade and people are
booing him and giving him the finger. Some people were
drafted and went over there. That wasn't their choice to
go over and then you're treating them like that. If
you're against the war, you should protest, but don't disrespect
those that went over there and try to fight what
they thought was what they thought was the right thing.
A lot of them went over there did not think
was the right thing, but still did it because that's
what we were conditioned to do for our country back then.
So it was just tough to watch. You just kind
of feel like, right now, you're just disillusioned with the
government and the way things are, and there's no compromise anymore,
and we can't get things done. And this is the
starting point right here with this war, where people just
realized what is the government doing? Why do we feel
like they're lying to us now? Why do we feel
like they're so dishonest? It's kind of heartbreaking because most
people don't trust the government anymore. So everything's just great now,
right I think? For me, Yeah, maybe really think about
what's going on now. Things haven't become a positive, they're
becoming more of a negative.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't disagree. Well said first of all. And
also it's so confusing, and there's so much confusion at
this time, and it is so hard. It was hard
then hard now to sift through what are the facts,
What is the government's motivation, who is driving this force
to engage in war? What is the real end game here?
What are we hoping to gain from it? What is
the government hoping to gain from it? If we actually
knew all of the facts or understood the administration's goals,
then maybe it would be clear as to which side
we could get behind and or why. But sometimes we
just don't have all of it, and all we have
is what we're being shown or the results of that,
and then we feel a certain way, and that's I think,
you know, the kind of the what this whole movie is.
It is a lot of reaction and the feelings about
what has happened and then not really knowing why, especially
then when there's no we being the US of a right,
having one previous wars and being the so called power
that we are in the standing that we have in
the world, and then to go into this conflict and
come out as a loser on so many fronts. Nothing
made sense at the time. It was such a time
of upheaval. So yeah, it's interesting, you know, And I
don't get me wrong, it's just the facts are all
there underlying I guess this movie wasn't It didn't have
to be, and it wasn't about the minutia of the
actual facts as to this happened here and this is
why we did this, and these are the documents that
have come up. This is all happening in present time,
I guess at that time, so not a lot of
the facts were probably made known immediately. It was just
going based on what was either being leaked or word
of mouth, you know, so impactful stuff makes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I find scary today, as they probably
did back then during the Vietnam War, is like you
hear two signs to every story, and then it's, well,
where do I get the facts to make my own
opinion to see what side I should what I'm talking
side with? And you don't know where to go to
find that information anymore. And you look at Ron thinking, Okay,
we need to go over there and stop communism. And
then he comes back and everyone's telling him, yeah, you
should have went over there, that was wrong. And then
you know, now he's hearing a different set of facts,
and now he's doubting what he did and what it
cost him. Right, And that's tough because here he is,
it's gonna be in the wheelchair for the rest of
his life. It's not going to have a family. You know,
you feel like you were lied to. So the bitterness,
the resentment, all that comes into play, and you do
see it, and it hurts. It hurts to watch that,
you know.
Speaker 2: And you're absolutely right, And I think you're kind of
answering my either question or issue with the way the
film was laid out a little bit, is that this
whole idea of You're just not seeing the results. What
are the positive results from it? All you're seeing is
the pain and anguish and what it's cost so many
people and families. And I think that's what Ron obviously, well,
obviously that's what Ron goes through. What he endures is
his own personal loss and doesn't see, doesn't understand. It's
one thing to be to have that youthful, exuberant idealism
and faith and belief in the idea of what the
United States of America represents and what it is supposed
to be as a democracy. But then when we engage
in a conflict such as this and come out of it,
you know, as losers. Was it worth it? Where's the
value in it? And he sees none, obviously, such a huge,
huge loss and negative result that it makes him switch sides,
if you will.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's tough to try to talk about this movie
not get super political, right, Yeah, But I'm just trying
to think of it from the perspective of Ron thinking,
this is what happened before. Our family. We wore our
family would go, they would serve and it was the
right thing, and this time, because you're conditioned to think
that way, and then coming out of it going, oh,
government might have lied to you about this, Like wait, wait,
what the hell is going on?
Speaker 2: Right? The whole idea is that we're going we're defending
our way of life. Right, that's the whole idea, is
that what we're sold on and what we like to
believe is that we are defending our borders, we're defending
our way of life. Is that there are enemies out
there that want what we have, and so we need
to do our utmost and protect what we have, our
democracy and our freedom. And then to find out, well,
that's actually what was maybe not the whole reason for
engaging in the war. This is not a podcast about
giving our own opinions and political opinions and beliefs. It's
just we're talking about what happens in this movie and
how the story is laid out.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, with that, let's move on to favorite scenes
or moments. We are some of our favorite scenes of
moments from for on the fourth of July.
Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of a little Americana idealism and patriotism, I'm
going to start with the opening sequence our Fourth of
July parade. Young ron Kovic is on his dad's shoulders,
parade is happening down what I believe is basically mainstream
in Massapequa, New York. Flags are waving the convoy of
cars slowly rolling down the street. Streets are just packed
lined with people on either side. Fire Crackers are cracking
and making all of the smoke. We've got balloons, we've
got clowns. And then we have the veterans walking down
the street holding their flags and the elder veterans that
are on the sidelines watching. They stand up in salute,
and we see these veterans marching along, and we do
see some disabled veterans, one in a wheelchair in particular,
whom is reacting to the fireworks. And it is ron
Kovic making a cameo here. He is mustached as he
is going down the street in his wheelchair. But the
important thing is we do see and we watch the
young ron Kovic on his dad's shoulders, really kind of
keying in on these veterans, in particular this one in
the wheelchair as he squints and is jolted every time
a fire cracker goes off, so he's clearly dealing with PTSD. Then,
on a lighter note, we see ron Kovic's friends running
through the crowd and we see a young Donna. Donna
runs up to Ron Kovic and gives him a gift
it's his birthday, gives him a New York Yankees hat,
and you even see ron Kovic's mom looking down upon him, going, oh,
he's my Yankee doodle boy, and then it transitions to
the nighttime with Donna and Ron kissing. Ron unfortunately doesn't
understand the moment at all and doesn't read Donna at all,
but does transition then later to Ron at a little
league game hitting a home run while Donna's on the
sideline with a new boyfriend. No surprise that she's with
somebody new because Ron wasn't giving her the time of day. Apparently,
Ron hits a home run in the little league game,
and you see his dad just jumping up and down
in slow motion screaming, that's my boy. And then it
transitions to Ron and his family at home, all his
brothers and sisters watching President Kennedy's inaugural speech from nineteen
sixty one, and then his mom looks over to Ron
in particular and says, I had a dream, Ronnie, the
other night that you were speaking to a large crowd
just like him, and you were saying great things. So
I'm calling out this whole scene because it's beautifully shot
by Bob Richardson, lit by Guy Ray Beshki. But it
really is super nostalgic and it drives home that whole point,
the idea of what America is and or stands for
and or celebrates, which was what it was at that time.
That is Americana, and it's a real example of it.
And you watch it going I want to live in
this moment. Everything about this is almost heavenly. There's such
a glow about it. It's perfect, the perfect way to
start this movie because there is such a specific parallel
and callback to the second Fourth of July Parade that
happens after Ron comes back from the war and how
things are almost polar ops and have changed so much. So, yeah,
I thought it was effective. It made me nostalgic for
my youth, even though I did not grow up in
the sixties. It is, I guessed, very much from a
child's point of view. It's almost a childlike view in
a way. It's very innocent, right, This is the picture
of an innocent America in a way. It's a great
way to start this movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had this down also because the movie does
open up with Ron and his friends playing war, which
nowadays you can't even do finger guns at school without
you getting admonished, and it just kind of made me laugh, like, Wow,
we've come a long way from kids running around with
pretend guns shooting one another. And I think the moment
that got me out of that opening sequence is the
parade when Ron's on his dad's shoulders, right and we
see the veterans and he's so excited to see them.
But for me, I almost felt like he didn't see
the disabled. I felt like he saw through them because
in the back of his mind he still has that
ideal sense of Ooh, when I get older, I'm gonna serve,
and not seeing like there is a cost if you
go out there and serve, and he's missing that. He's
just excited of seeing the soldiers. That's how I interpreted
it watching it. Sure's I guess there's a lot of
irony clear foreshadowing all right for me for a scene,
and it is when Ron decides that he's going to
go to Vietnam and it's the nine of the prom
and he finally gets the courage to ask Donna. But
Donna heard that Ron was going someone else, so She's
going to the prom with someone else. And throughout this
whole beating of the movie, you know, Donna has a
thing for Ron, and Ron's just oblivious to it. And
I'm like, oh God, that was so me back then.
I just never knew when someone liked me, So I
was like, oh, I'm feeling the pain. Yeah, it can't
be any more obvious that Donna has the thing for Ron.
Ron's in his living room. I'm talking to his dad
and the newscast about the war, and Ron's dad says,
I don't know, thirteen hundred miles, that's a long way
to go to fight a war. And Ron's mom comes
in the room and she sits down, and Ron comes
back with, basically, you're opening quote, don't you know what
this means to me to be a marine?
Speaker 2: Dad?
Speaker 1: Ever since I was a kid, I wanted this. I
wanted to serve my country, and I want to go.
I want to go to Vietnam and I'll die there
if I have to. And Ron's father basically just responds with,
not a nice night for the prom. He just doesn't
know what to say, And then we cut to Ron
in his bedroom and his mom is very religious, and
he's basically asking Jesus, am I making the right decision,
Please give me a sign let me know I'm making
the right decision to go out to Vietnam. This is
the first time he has just a little bit of
doubt because it seems like his dad, who has served,
doesn't want him to go. So why is his dad
saying that? And why are some of his friends that
he's told that he's going over don't feel like he
should be doing this, So a little bit of doubts
creeping in. After he asked Jesus first sign, we have
our running scene and we see Ron running through the
rain and we see that he's heading to the high
school where there's the problem. Cut to the probably the gymnasium,
and everyone's in there dancing, and we see some of
Ron's friends that see Ron see that he's all soaking wet,
and Ron's making his way through the prom and then
we see Donna dancing with her date and Ron comes
up to them and ask Donna if he can have
a dance. Donna says yes, and they start dancing even
though Ron is soaking wet, and you see this look
come over Donna's face that she's just like, finally, but
then at the same time her look changes again because
it's like, oh, he finally realized, but now he's going
away and now I might not ever see him again.
She does a lot in her face in those few
seconds that she's excited, but at the same time she's
heartbroken because she doesn't know what's going to happen to
Ron in the future. And then they kiss and we
hear moon River playing over the dance, and then it
slowly fades to black, and then the next scene is
we pan down and we see a battalion in Vietnam.
So to me, it's pretty powerful stuff. They could have
just had a life with Donna, they could have had
a family, and Rod made a change that it's going
to change his life and Donna's life, and scary that
he does have that little bit of talent going in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fantastic, man, A great, great call on that
whole sequence, because as you were describing it, just I mean,
I was replaying every moment in my mind's eye, just
seeing the movie in my head, and that first half
of the sequence when he's at home and he's almost
in a way like pleading with his father too. He's
looking for this confirmation bias, right, he's looking for like,
hey man, you got to fight and work. Grandfather got fight.
Now it's my turn. This is a scene of innocence
versus experience. You have the innocent Roan Kovic, the young
Rankovic here just thinking it's my time now to step
up and be a man. This is what it means
to be a man in this country. I have to
go fight for my country and this is how I
will earn respect and this is what you're supposed to do,
especially in his particular family. This is what he feels
like is the right thing to do is to protect
the country and defend the ideas of this country in
our way of life. And there's his father, just skeptical.
You would think, you know, you're watching the scene and
immediately like, oh, you know, his dad's going to be raw.
Rah my ghosts son, I'm so proud of you for
making this decision. But it's the opposite. He's quite concerned
and that really shocks him. You can see it on
his face. He's like, why aren't you getting behind me
on this? Dad, and so that's just to see that
position there in point of view is really impactful. And
then the fact that he goes to pray, So then
you put religion on top of it. He's wants to
do this not just for he's fighting for the righteous here.
It's not just bors country, but for God as well.
So it's kind of you know, you add that additional layer.
But yeah, when it's so romantic when he goes to
the prom, super super romantic, almost on a saccharine level,
and I buy every bit of it. It's great when
he cuts in and grabs Donna and kisses her. I
believe every moment of it. But especially after the kiss,
when he holds her is like, oh, man, tug at
the heartstrings. He needs her so much in that moment.
And you said it well though, just the reaction on
her face, the transition in her face of feeling the
love but then ultimately fear as well. So yeah, it's
it's a great, great sequence. What do you got next,
I've got Ronnie comes home, I say, because this is
what of his parents still call him, you know, they'll
always see him as their little Ronnie, and he is
now returning home for the first time after the war.
He's been through just a traumatic experience in the VA hospital,
learning of course that he is paralyzed, that he will
never feel anything in his body from the midchest downward
for the rest of his life. And he's still coping
and accepting that fact and very much seems in denial
for some time. But he returns to Massapequa in nineteen
sixty nine. His dad drives him home, pulls up in
the station wagon. His dad comes right around to the
passenger side door, helping Ron get into his wheelchair. And
you can see already immediately Ron wanting to prove himself
to everyone from the get because this is first impression
after coming home. So he's trying to say, I got
I can do this, I can get in the wheelchair.
I don't need your help, And the neighborhood is teeming
with activity, kids in the street, neighbors looking out their
windows seeing that Ron's come home again. His dad tries
to help in the wheelchair, and he just says, I
got it, I got it, I got it, And you're like, oh, yeah,
He's already got a lot to prove here, or feels
like he does. And Ron keeps commenting on how it's
good to be home, how everything looks so different, and
he greets the dog. His brother Tommy comes out to
greet him. All of his brothers and sisters, the neighbors
start coming over, and now you can start to see
the looks on people's faces, how they react to seeing Ron,
a veteran coming back from Vietnam in a wheelchair. He
has no use of his legs now and Ron at
one point almost slips from the wheelchairs it hits a
bump on the lawn, and then immediately of course, reassures
everyone he's okay. He tries to make a joke about
not being able to feel anything, and he's playing things
off and he's covering, and there's just a real solid
moment when he catches a glance from his brother Tommy,
who is hiding his feelings with the way he's looking
at Ron, and Ron sees what's happening. This is Tom Cruise.
There are these little moments where Tom Cruise is just
brilliant and his reactions to other people's reactions. So his
mother finally comes out. She's actually taken a moment. She
doesn't come out immediately with everyone else, and she waits
she gathers herself, comes out to greet him and is
very loving and immediately becomes teary eyed and she can't
take it. She says, hi, and obviously she loves him,
but she has to go back inside, and that affects
Ron on a level. The neighbors greet him. He does
then eventually get back inside. His dad is now like
giving him a tour of the house at this point,
just getting him reacquainted with how things have changed. He's sick.
I made alterations to accommodate you, widening doorways, and I
put a handle on the toilet for you. And Ron
goes immediately into his old bedroom looks at a younger
picture of himself as an able bodied wrestler, just a
couple of years previous, and it's tough. This is the
part that gets me, and I'm already getting emotional thinking
about is his dad comes to him in his room
and leads just leans down to hold him and he says,
it's good to have you. It's good to have you, Ronnie,
and he cries and it's just like, oh my god,
it's brutal. And then he gets up and this is
Raymond J. Barry cred to him as an actor, it's awful.
You're just heart goes out to him, you having empathy
as a parent and a father in this moment, just
like with his mother as well. But his father says,
come on, I'll show you, I'll show you some of
the new stuff we got in the bedroom over here.
But his voice is shaking and he's crying the whole time.
Jay Berry is just excellent in the scene. Cruise is awesome,
Caroline Cobba is awesome, his brother Tommy's awesome. Cruise is
constantly saying how everyone looks great and everything's great, but
it clearly isn't. Everything's changed. It's a tough scene, but
I think I said everything I need to say. It's
just well well performed, and you just are already feeling
the weight of how things are now going to be
different forever for Ronnie and his family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a good scene because here's ron trying
to be super positive, overly positive to reassure his family
that everything thing is going to be okay. But yeah,
they have a long road ahead of them, you know,
the day to day with having to adjust to ron
being in a wheelchair, and it is tough, and the
neighbors being supportive and coming over and yes, they're gonna
do those glances and stuff. And we do find out
later on in the movie a lot of the kids
that did go over from that area did not come
back right. So that's even harder too, because maybe some
of those families have a little bit of guilt, why
did Ron come back and not such and such for
my kid. I can only imagine as a parent, you know,
you have to put up such a front. You know,
here's Ron being positive, and it's like, oh man, I
got to match that now, you know, to make him
feel like everything's going to be okay. And in the
back of your mind, you're thinking of everything that you're
gonna have to deal with now, how much their lives
have changed from a day to day basis. So when
you really think about it, it's it's a tough scene.
It's really it really is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when his dad cries that, it absolutely destroys me
because of the previous scene you just described Bill Bant.
What's going through his mind thinking should he have said
more to his son to try to convince him not
to go. You know, as a parent, you feel like
you're supposed to protect your child. That's the bottom line.
And he I think understands why Ron, his son went
to Vietnam, clearly, But now this has happened, there's just
got to be so many thoughts, so many thoughts going
through his father's mind at that point.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So this takes me to one of my favorite scenes,
and this is Ron is supposedly drunk again. You know,
Ron is getting disillusioned with the war. He's seen all
the negative press, and he's going out now with his
friends and drinking way too much, getting sloppy drunk, and
once again he's brought home and his mom comes in
and admonishes him for drinking. This is the first time
really Ron is expressing doubt that he shouldn't have went,
that he made a mistake, he shouldn't have gone. He
starts having a yelling match with his mom, and his
dad intervenes and he's trying to play the peacemaker, and
Ron is talking about how he's almost blaming his mom
for sending him over there, and he's talking about with
Jesus and how Jesus only has spent three days in
the cross and then he has to spend the rest
of his life in a wheelchair. And he was supposed
to go to Vietnam to stop communism, and he ended
up shooting women and children. And Ron's mom's like, what
are you talking about. You didn't shoot women and children.
What are you saying? Ron says, that was the war communism,
insiduous evil. They told us to go, and Ron's mom agrees, Yeah,
that's what they told us. And then Ron goes, now,
shall not kill, MoMu shall not kill women and children,
shall not kill. Remember, isn't that what you taught us.
Isn't that what they taught us, which is one of
the commandments in Christianity, shall not kill? And then yet
he's over there killing and not even killing what's supposed
to be the enemy. They're killing women and children. And
there is a scene in the movie where they come
upon a village and then up shooting a lot of
women and kids, thinking that the enemy was in there
and there wasn't, and Ron's mom starts yelling at him,
stop it, stop it, and that's when Ron says, it's
a fucking lie. There is no God. God is as
dead as my legs. There is no gods, there's no country,
it's nothing. I don't believe him anymore. And at this
point Ron's mom just like, get out of my house,
Get out of my house. Then Ron's really upset. He's
like basically says, you know, I'm crippled. I'm never going
to be able to have kids. And that's when that's
the big, the big Penis argument, where yeah, Ron says
penis and Moss like, don't say penis in this house.
Speaker 2: It's like penis, penis, big fucking erect penis. Mom.
Speaker 1: At this point, Ron's mom's just had it, and Ron's
father eventually takes Ron to his room and tells them,
you know what, maybe it's time that I guess there's
some kind of VA camp in Mexico that he's heard about,
that maybe Ron needs a couple of days away from
the home. And at first Ron doesn't want to go,
but Ronstad's kind of, yeah, I think you should think
about it. So Ron really has doubts he made a
mistake and having a conflict with his mom at least,
who's very religious and a very god fearing woman, and
he's kind of like, I don't believe what you believe,
and you should see what they're telling us be a lie.
So we think of Tom Cruise as a movie star.
This is a scene where he's definitely an actor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thousand percent on that one. So glad you chose
this scene had to be in there stellar performance from Cruise,
I agree. The scene is absolutely loaded. And what helps
me doing this podcast is and I have questions in
the beginning of my initial thoughts about whether or not
there's enough evidence as to why ron Covid makes a
turn here or there. It's all there now, you know,
when we especially when we talk about this scene, and
I believe does this scene take place after he's gone
to visit Kira Sedgwick Donna in Syracuse and sees the
protests there. I think it does, doesn't it.
Speaker 1: Ooh, that's a good question.
Speaker 2: I don't remember, you know, Gosh, you were talking about
this too. Is when I was talking about when Ronnie
comes home, right, and this particular town has lost a
handful if not more young boys to this war, and
ron as a survivor, and then we do see there's
another scene where he's with his best friend Timmy from
the neighborhood, who also went to the war and was wounded,
and then they're shooting the shit about all the other
guys from the area. That didn't make it and kind
of laughing about it because that's the only thing they
can do. That's how they deal with it. Now Ron
is hanging out with Tim and just get and shitfaced
because he's self medicating clearly and covering all of this
trauma that is swelling up within him. And this is
the release, and it's it's brutal. Yeah, he's very entire
he's clearly extremely intoxicated, but now his true feelings are
coming up because he's seen the protests or he knows
of them. He knows of this anti war sentiment and
also is starting to understand the anger and clearly has
so much anger within himself for you know, and there
is a lot of self pity and self loathing in
the scene, so he's playing that and there's so much
denial on his mother's part too, and she's playing it
to a tigue. And credit to Caroline Kava as the actress.
So there's so many levels going on here, and it
ends up in that verbal explosion and to even put
a little comedy in it when he's screaming penis, you
can't help but laugh a little bit because it's so
awkward but emotional, like it's just everything all at once,
so it's a really heavy scene. And then to have
it reach that crescendo in that height of volume, to
have it come back down when he finally goes back
to his room and his dad is putting him to
bed and saying, hey, I think it's best that you
go to Mexico, which is going to be you know,
I'm gonna kind of touch upon that next here in
my next favorite scene. But yeah, this whole thing is
it's a tour to force of performances and playing different
emotional levels, so they're all going through it here. It
all boils over in this scene. So yeah, my next
favorite scene is I'm calling it. Ron finds some kind
of release or maybe relief. So upon his father's suggestion,
Ron goes to Via Dulce or Via Dulce in Mexico,
which is a veteran retreat, a veteran camp, as you
put it, Bill, or you know, in an area where
expats congregate. And here in this particular town, we have
a lot of disabled veterans where they're on permanent vacation.
Let's just put it that way. And Ron goes down
there and just kind of has his eyes opened by
this scene where he meets these other disabled veterans gambling
and drinking their existence away, and he sees and learns
of all the prostitutes that hang out here, and it's
clearly a lifestyle, it's a way of doing things. It's
a transactional relationship benefiting everyone, and it's a little bit
of respite carved out here in this town in Mexico
for these veterans. So he goes to the local watering
hole and he meets a beautiful hooker in her name
is Maria Elena. Shout out to Cordelia Gonzalez as the
prostitute Maria Elena. She takes him upstairs, she asks him
for the money up front, and Ron makes it very
very clear that his lower extremities do not work, and
she doesn't care. She still undresses him, straddles him, she
rides him, and she orgasms, or at least does a
hell of a job pretending she's orgasming, and throughout this
entire sequence she's quite tender with him, and she's obviously
done this with other veterans, and she's quite experienced at
what she does. She's a professional. And this is a
scene that definitely makes you feel a lot of things
because Ron can't feel anything. He knows it. He's scared
in this scene and he's embarrassed, and he has needs
those still to receive affection and to feel love of
some kind, if it is only maybe it's even if
it's just sexual and it's just in his mind or
in his heart. But Ron breaks down multiple times. He
is full out crying while she is making love to him,
even if it's fake, if it's just for pretend. So
he's just going through everything, and it is again a
release on so many levels for him because you feel
so terrible for him and you know what he's dealing
with initially. But I think his crying, if you will,
and again credit to Cruz for this, is that it
transitions from that self loathing to almost a thank God,
I'm feeling something here and I'm able to feel some
sort of connection with a woman and to feel her
touch and to know what that feels like, because he
can still feel things from the chest up and he
can see he still has emotions and he still has thoughts.
So after the sequence, he comes back down to the
area with all the other veterans gambling and drinking away
and there's Willem Dafoe as Charlie. His character is introduced
and down here in this setting, and Willem Dafoe is
quite experienced in the ways of the ladies, the ways
of the women of the night here, and so he
sees the smile on Ron Kovic's face after Ron has
had his time with Maria Elena, and Dafoe says, she
loves you, right, tiger, and you just see rod Kovic
likes smiling, going, yeah, thanks a lot, it was great,
and says, just remember, keep one hand on our tits
and one on your wallet. Paradise, right man. It's just
Defoe's the shit man. And it just appears that Ron
is smitten. He's quite taken with Maria Elena, and in
the next sequence he seems to be on top of
the world, wheeling his wheelchair through town and he finds
a store where he buys Maria a gift, and when
he returns to the bar slash brothel, he sees Maria
Elena coming down the stairs with another man and she's
actually grabbing his crutch, and immediately he is broken hearted.
But Maria Elena just sees this as business and comes
over to Ron and says, so we get married today. No,
and in a very sarcastic direct manner, Ron responds, yeah, yeah,
that'd be great. So heartbreaking. But ladies and gentlemen listeners,
we understand it's tough choosing. These aren't like favorite scenes
in the way that they feel good scenes. There's no
real feel good scenes in this movie. They're just great scenes.
And this is, for me, another great scene where it's
just Ron going through it one day at a time,
one stage at a time, and learning what it is
going to be like living paralyzed. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, we say favorite scenes is a scene that hits
us in some sort of way. And I understand why
you chose this, because this whole movie is Ron being
so innocent about stuff and almost kind of learning after
the fact. And again here it is with Maria. This
woman takes them upstairs and they do what they can
with what they have functioning. And because I mean Ron
is a virgin, Yeah, he thinks he's fallen in love
when he doesn't realize. Like when you meet the other Vets,
they understand. They're like, Hey, we're getting money from the
government and we're just going to spend it on women
and tequila. So they know what they're doing down there.
Ron still near to the game and he doesn't understand
until it's too late, and it hurts. Yeah, you feel
bad for a little bit. But he has the gift
and you just see him kind of try to tuck
it before she comes over to talk to him. What
did you expect? He really thinks she's going to run
off with you. I don't know, So it just hurts.
He's got to learn that really fast and learned hard.
So it's a tough scene, but it hits.
Speaker 2: It hits, Yeah, it hits hard. And credit to Cordela Gonzalez.
She's really good in a scene. She's so tender with him.
She's very attractive, and she is so confident and she
really takes care of him. Yes, so I appreciated that.
It is a very experience for him, but you're absolutely right,
he does fall in love. It is this continuing journey
from innocence to experience and it's a quick lesson and
a hard lesson for him to learn. So great scene.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well for me, for my final scene, a favorite scene,
but it's a scene that really stands out and very
impactful is when Ron goes to the Wilson's home to
tell him what happened to his son in Vietnam. So
early in the movie, when Ron is in Vietnam, he
meets this soldier that's just come on to their battalion.
His name's Wilson, and they're talking a little bit and
he finds out that Wilson's from Georgia. Of course, Wilson
has the trope you see all the time. It's got
to show the picture of his girl, and the girl's pregnant,
so you know something's gonna happen to Wilson. And sure enough,
they come on to this village, they shoot it up.
They realized they killed a lot of innocent women and children,
and then the Vietnam soldiers come in, so now it's
just chaos there all trying to fall back and they're
just shooting at anything that moves. Kovic accidentally kills Wilson
because Wilson's coming over a hill just screaming and yelling,
and because of the son all he sees a silhouette,
so he just shoots. Unfortunately, kills Wilson. He tries to
report it. Commanders don't want to hear it. Ron has
this guilt and when he's in Mexico. He tries to
write a letter to the family to let them know
what happened to their son. And then it gets to
the point where Ron is now going to go visit
Wilson's family, and it starts off against in a cab.
He goes of the cemetery, he sees Wilson's gravestone, and
then he goes to the house. We meet Wilson's parents
and Wilson's wife, who is Lily Taylor, who has a
small role. Like I said, you you see a lot
of these names in the credits, and they're very in
for short periods of time. Lily's there with the baby,
who's probably maybe two at this point, and Ron tells them,
I knew your son. I know what happened to the
day he died. He goes, I remember the day he
was killed. It was a strange day. We were out
on patrol near a beach area and it was very confusing.
And while Ron's trying to tell the story, like you
could see in his eyes or they're just starting to
well because this just build up. He's just got to
get this off his chest, and they were screaming and firing.
It was getting late, and there were these children, these
babies that we killed by mistake, and miss Wilson comes
to him with how awful, and Ron continues and then
they got really crazy and we had to pull back
because the NBA were coming up on us, and we
got scattered in the dunes. People were yelling at anything,
firing at anything, and that's when it happened. And when
he says that, you can tell that at least mister
Wilson knows where this story is unfortunately going. I was confused, scared.
I raised my rifle three times in shots. The body
fell on the dunes. God, this is this is very
difficult for me to say. Mister Wilson cuts in, like,
we don't have to hear this Ron, and Ron comes
back with but, mister Wilson, I think I was the
one that killed your son that night. I was the one.
I was the one. I was the one. And Jamie,
who's really Taylor the wife says what's done is done, Sir,
I can't ever forgive you, but maybe the Lord can.
And then Ron's parents, Missus Wilson says, we understand Ron,
we understand the pain you've been going through, and they
seem to forgive them, which that's gotta be a tough
thing to do for the parents, but I think, understanding
everything that's been going on, it's got to be tough,
but what you know, what can you do? So I
pluted to the fact that they were able to forgive them,
and I think even what Jamie said made a lot
of sense. It's like, yeah, I can't forgive you, but
in a way I almost kind of do. And then
we see Ron get wheel chaired out to the cab
and then he takes off, and then that's when really
he decides that he's going to speak out against the war.
Speaker 2: So I'd like this.
Speaker 1: Moment, this is like the final thing he needs to
do to really move forward with his life. And the
fact that he can go into that family's home and
sit there and tell them and he's not asking for forgiveness,
He just wants them to know what happened to their son,
to me, was tough. It's a powerful acting moment from Cruise.
Speaker 2: A million percent on this one. Yeah, this scene I
definitely remembered before this rewatch because it is the most
impactful and this is basically the final part of the
turn that he makes before going into you know, a
stage of activism. So yeah, it's awful to have to
do this, but I think he comes to a point
where this guilt and shame, it literally was eating him alive,
and this was how he decided to unburden that and
felt obviously that the family needed to know what really happened,
that they needed to know the truth. And I think
that is clearly another huge motivation because what has upset
him so much and so many others so much is
that there's been such lack of truth and too many
lies and it's time for brutal honesty on all fronts.
So this is him making an effort to be honest
with himself and with them and nothing short of extremely emotional.
So to get the mixed reactions I thought was very
smart and the performances just from the supporting actors in
the scene were brilliant, So great to see Lily Taylor.
Always love that actress, Yes, we loved her and Mystic
Pizza of course with that, I think she was the
big standout for us in that podcast when we recovered that,
So to see her in this particular small role was
a change, but a welcome revisit with her. So he
had to call out that scene for sure.
Speaker 1: That was a must. Yeah. Okay, let's move on to
our Swiss cheese and complaints apartment. And why don't we call.
Speaker 2: Swiss cheese because although this movie is delicious, it does
have flag burning holes.
Speaker 1: Yes, and it doesn't have those flag burning holes. We
just found a complaint with the complaints apartment. So Jason,
what do you have?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I got a few complaints, one being that awesome
scene at the prom when he just walks up to
Donna and cuts in. I was like, dude, I appreciate
what you're doing, but I felt bad for her. Date
was his name, Todd? I think something like that. I
think so he doesn't he barely gets in a word.
I think he's like he says, maybe you hear it,
like kind of offscreen, like whoa like looking at Ron
because he's all wet from running through the rain. But man,
you just butt in like that. Thought he could have
been a little more polite in that moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little tough for him. I just feel bad
for him momentarily. It's just my big complaint. You know.
We just have to remember that even though this movie
is based on an autobiography, you know seems have to
be enhanced for dramatic effect, So we know the overall
story is basically true, but there's going to be elements
that are written up to pull out our dramatic heart strings.
Just remember that one watching.
Speaker 2: It, Okay, good point, good point. I found I love
Frank Wally. I liked him in this a lot. He's
always great. I didn't care for his wig in this one.
It's a little distract His hair was a little distracting
to me. And when he has his big scene with
Ron when they're sitting out in the backyard on the
beent and like sitting on the picnic table and talking
about their buddies that they lost, and you have actually
another great moment from Tom Cruise talking about why didn't
I just stay down? Why did I feel like I
had to get up and be a hero or change
my life and I just could have stayed down. Whatever
those lines were. Excuse me for paraphrasing. It looks like
Timmy played by Frank Wally, has like there's a line
across his forehead that's clear, and it doesn't look like
just the wrinkles in his forehead like natural. I'm like,
is that literally just just a bad makeup cover up
where that's where his cap wig starts his wig cap.
It was pretty obvious to me. Maybe it's just watching
it in HD or whatever, but I was like, ooh,
that's really distracting in this kind of emotional scene here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I was more disturbed by some of
the mustaches in this than the wigs. There. It got,
but I think I know what happened with Frank. He
was literally coming from another film. He was that's right,
so that might have been it. They just kind of
threw that on his head and go get to work.
Speaker 2: Pal, Did you have more on that in the trivia
because I can mention it real quick here. I'll I
don't want to butcher it, but no, go ahead. He
literally was had gotten on a like a red eye
flight or something like that. He had to fly right
from one shoot to the next and had not memorize
his lines for this scene. Yeah, it's a big scene,
it is, and Olie Stone was not happy about it,
supposedly what I read. But then Frank Waally was like,
and I think either I think Tom Cruise took him
aside and they just worked on it. Like four He's like,
give me ten minutes, give me fifteen minutes. Whatever it was,
they nailed it down together and he got it clearly then.
And it says this very much so in the research
that Oliver Stone clearly forgave him because he's used him
then afterwards in the following films. So that was good
to hear.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was a little critical of some of that wig work,
and yeah, I guess the mustache work too in this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, some of it was a little bit distracting. The
only other thing I had was I just kind of
wanted to know, like what happened to Timmy, what happened
to Tommy, what happened to Donna? Especially Tommy because Ron's
brother and he's anti war. Yeah, and they kind of
have I don't want to say it falling out, but
they do exchange words.
Speaker 2: Oh it's a significant scene. Yeah, so dies that go right?
Speaker 1: Did they think work things out? Or I felt like
I was left hanging of him? Of the three I mentioned, you.
Speaker 2: Would really feel like there this is the kind of
film that would have that epilogue with all of the
text with describing what had happened to each of the
main or major characters that were featured, Whether it be
Willie from the VA Hospital or Timmy or Tommy or Donna. Yeah, absolutely,
it would you really like this is the movie that's
tailor made for that kind of thing, but we don't
get it. Yeah, yeah, all right, that's all I got.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's move on to Hey, It's that actor. So
this segment we spotlight a character actor you have seen
in many other films, an actor making their big screen debut,
or an actor that makes an uncredited cameo. Hey it's
that actor, and who do we choose this week? And
this could be one of those movies we could just
do an episode.
Speaker 2: On Hey, yeah, who do you not choose?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: So this week our Hey It's that actor is R. D. Call.
His name is r D the initials.
Speaker 1: R D.
Speaker 2: Call is his last name, and he portrays the chaplain
in a brief sequence, a brief scene that happens in
the triage tent right after the fight firefight in Vietnam
where ron Kovic is shot and wounded. Our D Call
is an American actor, maybe best known for his roles
in films directed by Walter Hill. However, in this I
recognized him right away and also really liked his brief
scene it's quite jarring. It's almost ya, just really jarring,
as he is extremely direct with ron Kovic but has
this slight twinge of empathy under this high pressure circumstance
in this triage tent where you have an injured ron Kovic.
That's like, I need to be operated on because he
knows he's been severely injured. And the chaplain RD Call says,
the doctors are real busy right now. There's a lot
of wounded here today, no time for anything except trying
to stay alive. So you've got to try and stay alive. Okay,
you hear me, try and stay alive. And then immediately
afterwards says I've come to give you your last rites.
Are you ready? It's like, oh my god, it's brutal. Yeah,
so already calls trademarks of yeah, our tough guy rolls
and his mustache. Funny enough, he has a pretty solid
mustache in this I think that's actually his mustache, so
looks good in this movie. His eighties Snapshot does a
lot of TV series episode appearances and shows like Heart
to Heart, Little House on the Prairie General Hospital. He's
a duty sergeant in Forty eight Hours in eighty two,
like was he in the precinct sequence that you broke?
Speaker 1: I don't remember him either.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's an episode of the show V in nineteen
eighty five. He's a courtroom guard in Brewster's Millions in
eighty five. He plays the role Dickie in At Close
Range in eighty six, then No Man's Land in nineteen
eighty seven, which we have to do on this podcast.
Bill Band got to do No Man's Land at some point.
He's in Colors in eighty eight, the TV movie La
Takedown in eighty nine, and then this Born in the
Fourth of July and eighty nine. Other notables Young Guns two.
My particular favorite performance of his and why I know
him well is from the film State of Grace, where
he plays character Nicholson. Awesome, very menacing. He's in other
People's Money, waterworled, Last Man's Standing. Babbel Into the Wild,
did a lot more TV and Artie Call did, unfortunately
pass away in twenty twenty at the young age of seventy.
Little trivia, he appeared in two films that were nominated
for Best Picture, Oscar Born in the Fourth of July
and Babel. Babbel was in two thousand and six. Both
are winners of the Golden Globe Motion Picture in the
category of Drama. He has worked with Sean Penn multiple
times in At Close Range, Colors, Judgment in Berlin, State
of Grace, I Am Sam, and Into the Wild So
ARTI call is our Hey, it's that actor this week.
Speaker 1: That's definitely one of those I recognize him right away,
but could not for the life of me. But yeah,
he definitely defines the hands that actor. Okay, let's move
on to facts and trivia. What are some facts of
trivia we have about Born the fourth of July.
Speaker 2: The real ron Kovic gave Tom Cruise his Bronze Star
for his performance in the movie.
Speaker 1: Nice, that's that's like, that's huge. Yeah, that's a big deal.
Speaker 2: So now I've like, if I met Tom Cruise, like
right now today, I'd be like, where do you keep
the bronze Star?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be a good question. All right, We've been
talking about the cast and crew and all that, But yes,
including cameos by Oliver Stone, there are at least eleven
other actors credited in this film that also appeared in
Oliver Stone's earlier Vietnam War film Platoon. Some of the
highlights include Tom Barringer, who was gunnery Sergeant Hayes. We
also mentioned Willem Dafoe, who is Charlie John C McGinley
who was the official pushing Kovac's wheelchair at the end,
and Mark Moses, who was the doctor at the VA
hospital who ends up rebuilding that device to help Cruz
save his leg. Allow carry over from Platoon for sure,
Mark Moses, Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2: Funny because I see him, I recognize he easily could
have been a Hey, it's that actor. Yes, there's just
another one man. Producer Martin Bregman acquired the film rights
to the book in nineteen seventy six and hired Stone,
also a Vietnam vetteran, to co write the screenplay with Kovic,
who would be played by Al Pacino. When Stone optioned
the book in nineteen seventy eight, the film adaptation became
mired and developed in Hell after Paccino and Bregman left,
which resulted in him and Kovic putting the film on hold.
After the release of Platoon, the project was revived at
Universal Pictures with Stone attached to direct, and it was
shot on locations in the Philippines. Texas and Inglewood, California.
Principal photography took place from October to December in nineteen
eighty eight, lasting sixty five days of filming.
Speaker 1: All Right This Speaker at the Universe cea Syracuse protest
is played by iconic Sixties activist Abby Hoffman, who co
founded the Youth International Party Hippies and was a member
of the Chicago Seven. The Chicago Seven was charged with
and tried for activities during the nineteen sixty eight Democratic
National Convention for conspiracy to use interstate commerce with intent
to incite a riot and crossing state lines with the
intent to incite a riot under the Anti Riot provision
of Title X of the Civil Rights Act of nineteen
sixty eight. The twenty twenty Iron Sorkin film The Trial
of the Chicago Seven, which was dridded by Netflix, covers
that incident. By the time Born on the fourth of
July was released, Abby had unfortunately taken his own life.
The film is dedicated to him in the closing credits.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Tom Cruise spent one year preparing for the role.
He visited seven veterans hospitals, read various books on the
Vietnam waren practiced riding in a wheelchair. At one point
during pre production, Oliver Stone suggested that Cruise be injected
with a chemical drug that would render him paralyzed for
two days. Stone believed that the drug would help him
realistically portray the difficulties of being a paraplegic. The insurance
company responsible for the film vetoed the idea, believing that
the drug would cause permanent incapacitation. That one I just
love reading about because it's like, not only does Oliver
Stone go all the way, but Cruse does too. And
I had read a little bit more about that where
Cruise seemed actually on board with it for a bit, yes,
and it all gets vew ot. It's like, oh my god,
you guys, what are we doing here? That's insane?
Speaker 1: Yep. So another possible haydside actor would have been character
actor Bob Gutten, who might be best known as the
warden in The Shawshak Retemption. In this movie, he plays
the doctor tells Ron about his paralysis. Bob was an
act real veteran of the Vietnam War, having served in
the US Army and earned a Bronze Star for his service.
Speaker 2: Cool all right. The entire film was shot in shades
of red, white, or blue, depending on the emotional level.
Battle scenes are all in reddish shoes, dream sequences in white,
sadness and blue, et cetera. See that's smart stuff. I
didn't even pick up on that. It's kind of on
a subconscious I know it's.
Speaker 1: Terrible because it's so obvious after you read that, and
you're like, why was there not seeing that when I
was watching the movie.
Speaker 2: I know. I'm just like, it's right there. Am I
even really a fan of film? That's when you go,
I'm questioning my own.
Speaker 1: Hopefully you don't have this one, because you've been praising
these two throughout the whole movie. So, Raymond J. Barry
and Caroline Kava, who play mister and Missus Kovak, parents
to Ronkovec, previously appeared together and You're the Dragon, a
movie which was co written by Oliver Stone. In that movie,
it's Raymond J. Barry who plays a Vietnam veteran.
Speaker 2: Ah, there you go. I didn't have that, but I
did come across it. But I'm glad you mentioned it.
So yeah, on prom night in the movie, Yes, Ronnie's Father,
we talked about this. Ronnie's father laments that Vietnam is
a long way to go to fight a war. Since
Hanoi is twelve time zones away from Massapequa, it is
literally the other side of the globe, making it the
absolute farthest.
Speaker 1: You could go crazy. I remember when I went to
Hong Kong and realizing, yeah, I was twelve hours away
from home, and how to keep going. Oh, yeah, it's
just I'm am there PM or vice versa. So weird.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I knew you went to Hong Kong.
When was that?
Speaker 1: Well, it was with the dolphins, so it was two
zoundands four mentioned it then yeah, yeah for Chinese New
Year's Wow, it was an interesting trip, I would imagine.
Twenty seven, David Brenner, not the comedian, was the youngest
person to win the Academy Award for Best Film Editing.
He was also the youngest to be nominated, tied with
Robert Wise for Citizen Kane back in nineteen forty one.
Speaker 2: Nice Love It, This is the last one I Got.
The film was cinematographer Robert Richardson's fifth collaboration with Stone,
and their first to be shot in the anamorphic format.
Richardson shot the film using panavision cameras and lesdism primarily
utilized thirty five millimeter film stocks. Sixteen millimeter and super
sixteen millimeter stocks were also used to film the scene
of COVID demonstrating at the nineteen seventy two Republican National Convention,
blended with archive footage of the actual event.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's move on to box office. So Born the
Fourth of July was released on December twentieth, nineteen eighty nine,
and four theaters. An estimated budget of fourteen million dollars,
it would grow seventy million dollars domestically. Born in the
Fourth of July would go into wide release on January fifth,
nineteen ninety It would be the number one movie for
three weeks straight. It drop to number two the following
week thanks to Driving Miss Daisy, but would stay in
the top ten for another eight weeks. Born the Fourth
of July would be the seventeenth highest grossing movie released
in nineteen eighty nine, behind one of my all time
favorite movies, Turner and Hooch.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 1: We're moving on to reviews. When growing up in the eighties,
we'd watch at the movies with Geene Siskel and Roger
Ebert to hear their reviews and watch clips of upcoming movies.
Their review of Born the fourth of July was unanimous
two thumbs up. Roger called it a great film with
a great performance. Gene credited Stone for courageously showing what
vets had to go through when seriously wounded in war,
the after effects, the damage a bullet could do to
one's body. It may make people uneasy, but it's memorable
Rotten Tomatoes because it to Memeter score of eighty four
percent with a Popcorn Meter score of seventy six percent.
It also has an IMDb rating of seven point two.
So this takes us to additional thoughts and questions, or
some additional thoughts and questions you have about Born the
fourth of July.
Speaker 2: Well, here's an additional thought. The word fuck is used
two hundred and eighty nine times throughout the film.
Speaker 1: There you go. I had that same thing written down
to do not play the fuck drinking game in this movie,
or you'll be dead by the second reel.
Speaker 2: You know. And that's it's great that you admitted that
to me or just told me that, because I meant
to actually ask you as like a trivia question do
you have like over or over under two hundred and
fifty times? What do you you know? How many times
do you think the word fuck was used in the movie?
But you already knew, so I.
Speaker 1: Probably would have said under, I didn't realize it was
used that much. Yeah, right, So this is interesting. Tom
Cruise's actual birthday is July third, stay often being born
on the fourt of July.
Speaker 2: Here's a question, yes, and I'm looking for your opinion.
Does it feel like this Tom Cruise movie is the
least talked about of Tom Cruise movies, like as far
as just popular culture over time when you think of
Tom Cruise and you get into discussions of his films.
He is nominated for Best Actor in this movie and
working with Oliver Stone, et cetera. But I just, yeah,
I don't know. I have my opinion.
Speaker 1: This was interesting because of course, you know, when you're
trying to do the research for this movie, you try
to find articles or whatnot. And there was an article
that ranked and I can't remember who wrote it, so
I apologize that ranked Tom Cruise's forty five movies that
he's had up to this point. And they had born
with the sports of July. Is this top film? Wow,
that's awesome. I was like, Oh, that might be in
the time ten. But I think you're right. This is
a movie of his that is not talked a lot
about because as I've met, he's considered a movie star,
and this is not a movie star type movie.
Speaker 2: It just feels like in it, like your typical nerdy
round table at the dinner table discussion among film fans,
this just doesn't come up that often.
Speaker 1: This isn't a movie I'm gonna pop in. It's one
of those good it's a it's a good movie, but
I'm not going to watch it, Like, oh what am
I in the mood for? Let me watch?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. That's a great point because usually you actually,
when you are with your film buddies having the roundtable discussion,
you're talking about your your favorite moments and scenes and
actors from movies, and you're not going to be like, oh,
you remember that one scene from borderin Forest of July
that was just awesome. You know, it's not typically going
to come up.
Speaker 1: No, you recommend it, you watch it the one time,
and if you come across it again, yeah, I own it.
And the only reason I own it is because of
this podcast. If I'm buying Tom Cruise movies, this would
be in the bottom of the list. But if you
knew nothing about Tom Cruise and you want to recommend
some of his movies, this should be one of the recommendations.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree, totally agree on all counts.
Since we're speaking of Tom Cruise movies, Jason, do you
have a go to Tom Cruise movie. That's a great question,
And as of late, I've been popping in Mission Impossible
Fallout because I think that is an incredible movie all around.
It's just an absolute blast, stunt work, action, everything. So
that to go to Fallout and Maverick both our go
to is from his earlier days. I do love the
Color of Money. I'm so glad we did that on
our podcast. Yeah, yeah, that is a good one, you
know what, honestly, and I know I'm just naming a
lot of Tom Cruise movies, But there was a time
when I watch I had Like rain Man on repeat
watch when that was on Cable. I watched that a lot.
I really like Tom Cruise in that movie. I always
shout out his performance in that because it was a
he was kind of playing opposite his typical hero ro
hero role.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting one to go back and rewatch
for me, because again, that was you know, pre pree
Days of Thunder, So it's it's been a while for
me to go back to some of those early ones
and start rewatching them and see like with a different eye, Like, no,
I actually like Cruise, So I'm.
Speaker 2: Glad, So glad that's the second time you brought up
Days of Thunder because that, for me is used to
be a rewatched like just I watch it all the
time because that's literally brainless actions, just top gun with cars,
So I watched that all the time. But yeah, recently
then Fallout Maverick, Okay, what about you.
Speaker 1: I've definitely been watching a lot of Maverick. I'll have
it on the background sometimes when i'm editing episodes so
I can watch something. I'll try to put on something
that I haven't seen in a while while i'm editing.
But then next thing you know, I'm watching the movie
and not editing. Whereas Maverick, I've watched it enough where
I'm just like, oh, okay, visually I can just kind
of know what's going on and not feel like I
have to stop and watch this scene. It's great, but
I'm trying to like from what I own, I do
have all the mission impossible movies. Risky Business is always
kind of fun to go back to every once in
a while, and then I can't remember because I keep
changing the goddamn title, the one what he keeps going
back in time?
Speaker 2: Oh God, that's a great one that I always Yeah,
that should be a go to of mine. I remember
seeing that screening, yeah, which was a ton of fun,
and he was there, which was really cool. Yeah, what
a surprise. Edge of Tomorrow. It been kind of rebranded
as Lived Repeat.
Speaker 1: Right, That's what confuses me. I'm like, yeah, most people
might know is now Lived Repeat, but it's like, no,
that's not what it was originally called. So yeah, to Tomorrow.
That's another fun one of like going back.
Speaker 2: To Absolutely that's a great movie.
Speaker 1: Anything else?
Speaker 2: I got two more? This one could be a little
controversial hot take opinion. But do you feel because this
and I say this with no judgment whatsoever, It's just
do you feel ron Kovik needed to or should have
confessed what he had done to Wilson's parents and family?
Speaker 1: For him, he needed to. It's like a huge weight
off his chest. I mean, he tried to report it,
it didn't go over well. Who knows what his parents
were told. Yeah, immediately makes me think of I can't
believe I'm blanket on the player, the football player that
went into.
Speaker 2: That was that was killed. Yes, in friendly fire? Correct?
Pat correct? Tim?
Speaker 1: Pat Tillman, Yeah, Pat Tillman. You know the amazing story
that he leaves football in order to go serve and
then he gets killed and they made it sound like,
you know, he got killed by the enemy, and then
it comes out that it was friendly fire and just
all the controversy that came with that that, I mean,
that's what was running through my mind when I was
thinking of all this throughout the movie. So part of
me almost felt like it's good that his family knew
what happened for real, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And that's I believe the conclusion I am coming to
as well. It's one of those things when you feel
that heavyweight, the cinder blocks that you're carrying in the
bag on your back, the burden of this guilt and
shame that is eating you away from the inside, and
you feel as though you need to tell the person
or people that you have wronged in a way the truth,
and sometimes it can be for selfish purposes just to
relieve yourself with that guilt where it may actually do
the other person more harm than good, so that you
know where the because it's I think this scene is
well like, well filmed, well acted, well played out and
well written in the way that you do have And
I don't know, I'm sure assuming a lot of it
is true to what actually happened in the book, etc.
In ron Kovic's life, but when the father says we
don't have to hear this is one of those things.
Speaker 1: It's like yeah, And that was the thing I kept
trying to put myself in the parent shoes, like, Okay,
if I'm in that situation, could I forgive ron.
Speaker 2: Or how sure?
Speaker 1: I think I would be upset hearing it, but understanding
how combat is. I don't think I would go rotten, hell,
you son of a bitch? Right. It would be hurtful,
but I think I would be understanding. I think my
child would still be lost regardless, but I think knowing
the truth at that moment it would be really hard,
but I think over time, I think I would feel
better knowing what have happen.
Speaker 2: And so that's where I'm coming out on as far
as Ron doing it not for to unburden himself or
for selfish reasons, but to the ideas it's in the
spirit of truth and honesty, correct, So feeling that this
family deserves the truth, they deserve to know what really happened,
and then we'll have to come to peace with that
on their own terms. But yeah, it's just such a
tricky thing to deal with when so so tragic, traumatic
and personal. So yeah, I just want to discuss that
real quick. And then I have one more one more question. Okay,
all right, best movies or best movie moments or I
should say, I don't know how to phrase this, but
feature let's just best movies featuring Independence Day or Independence
Day scenes slash moments. I'll go over it list and
give credit to a little short video on IMDb which
follows the trailer for Born the fourth of July. If
you go to the page you can watch it. We
have and they do it in chronological order, which is
great as if as in the dates that happen within
the fiction of the film. So it starts with back
to the Future. Three July fourth is the day when
Emmett learns it's the you know, they're in the Old
West in that one, and Emmett learns Christopher Lloyd learns
that he can't hold his whiskey. That happens on fourth
of July. It's kind of funny then, as the timeline
goes on in actual history, but within the fiction of
these films, it's Captain America's birthday. Okay, So in Captain America,
the first avenger, uh, you see that at July fourth
is his birthday. Then the shining the picture at the
very end, which establishes supposedly that Jack has been there
all along, right, is dated July fourth.
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, we have.
Speaker 2: Go ahead. What were you gonna say?
Speaker 1: You know what, if I was quizzed on that, I
would have said it was New.
Speaker 2: Years Okay, yeah, I thought it was New Year's too,
So now yeah, I gotta go back and look at that,
all right, Yes, you're right. Hmm.
Speaker 1: Well you said if IMDb did it, they would.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we may have to. That's that's my question than
to ask people, was I now that you say that? Okay?
So take it or leave it? On that one? That
yellow effect right right right, totally Sandlot summer sixty two,
they have their one night game. Now here's where I
have a feeling your vote might lie.
Speaker 1: I know what're you going to say?
Speaker 2: Now, Jaws? That's right, yeah, the attack, it happens right
off the beach. There. Independence Day. Not a good idea, Mayor.
Speaker 1: What was this?
Speaker 2: What's the starter's name?
Speaker 1: Mayor Vaughan? There you go.
Speaker 2: Then we get Forrest Gump. Forrest Gump proposes on Independence
Day in the movie. We get Flight of the Navigator
with the young boy David Freeman, who goes missing. He
takes off, and then nah. Maybe most famously, the US
is attacked by aliens on Independence Day in the movie
Independence Day, and as a result we get the famous
Bill Pullman presidential speech. So any favorites or do you
have a choice of a favorite Independence Day scene, moment, situation?
Speaker 1: Right away, you think Independence Day because of the name
of the film, right, I mean it is a fun,
cheeseball film. I mean you were a part of it,
so you know that.
Speaker 2: Technically I was never seen on screen.
Speaker 1: But if Jaws is one of the choices, I gotta
go with Jaws.
Speaker 2: There you go. I think back to the future ones
are kind of funny but yeah, I'm choosing Jaws as well. Okay,
that's all I got.
Speaker 1: All right, let's move on to our ratings. So on
a scale of one to five protests, what do you
give Born on the fourth of July.
Speaker 2: I'm giving it four solid protests, with the right to reserve,
changing my review to four point five. Right now, I'm
still digesting, I suppose, and so I'm going to go
with four protests. It's Cruise, It's Stone, It's Bob Richardson,
It's John Williams. It's great filmmaking. It's extremely moving, heartbreaking, upsetting,
makes you think, makes you feel a little dirty, does
make me question some things. It accomplishes a lot. I
did have some story development issues, but I think they
may have been cleared up by our discussion Bill Bant
and I could have Yeah, maybe use a little more development.
But Cruise is amazing in this It's very much worth
watching today. We'll always need more movies with directors that
have an opinion, even though it might be controversial. I
love directors that direct and write, write our director and
have a point of view, provide different perspective that makes
you think. This film makes me think a lot more
deeply about that time in our history and the war itself.
So it's a very impactful film, very emotion and that's
it for protests for me.
Speaker 1: What say you, Bill Ban I'm right there with you.
I have Ford protests myself. This is a movie where
we see Tom Cruise, the actor, so you certainly should
watch it for his performance. It's very well done this
subject matter. Yes, it's very controversial and really makes you think,
and it does make you think when situations like this occur,
you got to find the facts and make your own opinion.
It is a movie that's difficult to watch. I totally
agree with what Gene was saying. It betrays moments that
you don't think you really want to see, but Oliver
Stone showed it, and I think I do appreciate that fact.
It really makes you appreciate what our military how to
go through in that situation. Probably even in the wars
before that underfund it. When it came to taking care
of those who got wounded in battle, you don't think
about it. You think about those that come home and
are okay. But there's a lot of emotional and physical
scars that come with going to war, and I think
this movie depicts it very well. It's not a movie
you're gonna watch multiple times, but I definitely think you
should give it a watch at least once, especially for
younger audience members. That we're learning about wars and conflicts
that our country has gone through over the years. So
it's very well made, put together movie and it deserves
your attention, even though it's one that's not really talked
about a lot, which is kind of surprising.
Speaker 2: Well said, great points.
Speaker 1: Okay, I think that about wraps it up for this
week's episode. As always, thank you so much for listening.
Please take time to follow us and you prefer streaming platform,
give us a review and rate us. If we can
learn more about our show, you can visit us at
all Eighties Movies podcast dot com. Have an excellent rest
of your day now.
Speaker 2: People say, people say, if you don't love a mayor Erica,
then get the hell out. Well, I love America. We
love the people of America very much, but when it
comes to the government stops right there. Thanks for standing
up with us. Good Night World,