Speaker 1: Well again, we'll go back to non profits.
Speaker 2: You know, the old adage God will help those that
Speaker 2: help themselves. I think the men and I community and
Speaker 2: rurald Texas missed that memo. With ourkgior now in charge
Speaker 2: of the Department of Health usills on the rising along
Speaker 2: with others supposedly eleminated diseases. Here our belief ruling over
Speaker 2: reason and a lack of trust in established institutions. We
Speaker 2: are now on the precipice of some serious health crisises
Speaker 2: in the United States, especially in isolated communities where there
Speaker 2: is a serious lack of education and outreach to the
Speaker 2: wider impact of health access.
Speaker 1: We see how faith.
Speaker 2: Alone can lead to deaths that can be avoided with
Speaker 2: one simple shot. The story is from AP News by
Speaker 2: Devi Shastri on March fourth, twenty twenty five. Okay, my
Speaker 2: friend Eva, I got questions for you. So for my
Speaker 2: first question, you mentioned family decision making over well being.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to know your thoughts on families making
Speaker 2: decisions for their children for example that is going to
Speaker 2: cause harm and where is that line between parental right
Speaker 2: versus you know, because based like on our previous story.
Speaker 1: For Monday, how do we decide. You know where that line.
Speaker 2: Is when we're talking especially about parents being able to
Speaker 2: give like vaccines, are not choosing not to give vaccines
Speaker 2: to their kids.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that we have this idea. We insist
Speaker 3: that no one has the right to tell my family
Speaker 3: how to live, tell me and my family how to live,
Speaker 3: which I generally agree with. But I think what happens
Speaker 3: is you have decision makers in these families that believe
Speaker 3: they are making decisions in the best interest of their family,
Speaker 3: and that belief that they are matters a little bit.
Speaker 3: But what's happening in reality is like they most people
Speaker 3: just kind of like once they stop being required to learn,
Speaker 3: they don't anymore. So you're not like taking in new
Speaker 3: information and learning about like, hey, this is how vaccines
Speaker 3: really help, or you know, this is what medical research
Speaker 3: says about this particular thing, or this is why measles
Speaker 3: is worse? Then what will happen if you know what
Speaker 3: might happen if I do vaccinate? Right? So, and I
Speaker 3: think that's the problem too, that people tend to look
Speaker 3: at information in a vacuum. And so if you see that,
Speaker 3: you know there have been this many injuries from vaccines
Speaker 3: as a result of this or that vaccine, and you
Speaker 3: don't compare that to what's going to happen if you
Speaker 3: don't vaccinate. That's like me saying, you know, every if
Speaker 3: I say, every autopsy we've ever done in history has
Speaker 3: revealed some amount of dihydrogen monoxide in the cadaver at
Speaker 3: the time of death. If you don't already have the
Speaker 3: context that dihydrogen monoxide is just water and it's vital
Speaker 3: for life as we know it, then that makes it
Speaker 3: sound like that's somehow related to this high rate of mortality.
Speaker 3: But it's just a thing that happens to coexist and
Speaker 3: I happened to be there and not having it is
Speaker 3: much much worse than having it. But when you just
Speaker 3: look at that information without its context, you're going to
Speaker 3: scare yourself away from things that are more likely to
Speaker 3: help you than hurt you.
Speaker 1: No, that's a really good point.
Speaker 2: And Kelly, you mentioned like, you know RK Gear's you know,
Speaker 2: lack of vaccine education and class, and you know, it
Speaker 2: was like, oh, well, he knows what he's talking about.
Speaker 1: So I obviously.
Speaker 4: That I saw a quote in the article from Senior
Speaker 4: Senior Pastor class and do I trust all vaccines. No,
Speaker 4: And I give from Kennedy that he doesn't trust all
Speaker 4: the vaccines either, and he is very well educated in that.
Speaker 4: I'm not so. I mean, he's trusting Kennedy's education in vaccines.
Speaker 4: So I started thinking, I don't think Kennedy ever had
Speaker 4: any education in that. And I actually did a little
Speaker 4: bit of research around just doalve down the RFK rabbit hole,
Speaker 4: and it turns out well. First off, he was quite
Speaker 4: the little juvenile delinquent. He was even in a gang
Speaker 4: called the hyannasport Terrors, which to me is fucking hysterical.
Speaker 4: I'm not making this up either. Like he a lot
Speaker 4: of his family members said that he was addicted to
Speaker 4: drugs and he led other family members down the path
Speaker 4: of drug addiction. And honestly, besides the comical gang thing,
Speaker 4: he sounds like the people I was hanging on with
Speaker 4: the Dan Angel and the truth. He did a tuck
Speaker 4: funnel work on for environmentalism, legal work, but no vaccine
Speaker 4: background in any of that. He took a lot of
Speaker 4: corporations to court for pollution, which again good for him. Seriously,
Speaker 4: no vaccine education and any of that. The first, the
Speaker 4: first environment the first activism I ever did when I
Speaker 4: was a kid was for environmentalism, So I'm behind all
Speaker 4: the stuff he did when he was younger totally. But again,
Speaker 4: no vaccine education. He's an outstanding resume, but nowhere is
Speaker 4: there any training on vaccine, on healthcare, nothing. So this
Speaker 4: senior pastor is not trusting vaccines that have been tested
Speaker 4: and trusting a man who has not been tested.
Speaker 1: No, I agree with you, So, Tracy, I have a
Speaker 1: question for you.
Speaker 2: Okay, So, like and for example, and like Mennonite Amish communities,
Speaker 2: these isolated communities, they might not have the same access
Speaker 2: to education health education as like the general public. So
Speaker 2: we understand that there is a lot of religious privilege
Speaker 2: going on right now. Where do you think you mentioned
Speaker 2: like demonstrable harm in your notes and you know, where
Speaker 2: is that line, like, where is your kind of feeling
Speaker 2: about like lack of education versus you know, the health
Speaker 2: of our role of public populations like children.
Speaker 5: Well, Hannah, well I called you hand Helen. I'm just
Speaker 5: not gonna accept the lack of education as an excuse.
Speaker 5: Even the most poorly educated person can understand that when
Speaker 5: your child stops moving and responding to you and starts
Speaker 5: to smell a little funny that that means that they died.
Speaker 5: And when you look at all the kids in your
Speaker 5: community and you say, huh, well, they're dying a lot.
Speaker 5: And then you look at another community and you say, oh,
Speaker 5: my goodness, the children aren't dying as much. I wonder
Speaker 5: why there's no amount of removal from education, from our
Speaker 5: technology that is going to excuse this negligent behavior. There's
Speaker 5: no amount whatsoever. If your child is dying, unless you
Speaker 5: want back to keep happening, you take steps to fix that.
Speaker 5: I don't really understand. I can't understand not wanting to
Speaker 5: keep your child.
Speaker 4: From That's not what it is. It's it's it's I
Speaker 4: don't want my child. The problem is misinformation, not being
Speaker 4: well informed, but being well misinformed. So you have all
Speaker 4: these parents who are saying, oh, I had the measles
Speaker 4: when I was a kid and I lived, But if
Speaker 4: I give my kid a measle shot, they're going to
Speaker 4: be autistic. And I don't want my child to be autistic.
Speaker 4: And that's where that's where this fear comes out of. Now,
Speaker 4: of course, nobody's going to get become on the spectrum
Speaker 4: just because they got a measles vaccination. It's just not
Speaker 4: fucking happening. But there's so much misinformation out there teaching
Speaker 4: people this. I went through it with my kids. My
Speaker 4: ex wife brought it up, and we actually did some research,
Speaker 4: thank goodness, I you know, know how to research stuff,
Speaker 4: and we found out all this bullshit wasn't true, and
Speaker 4: my kids are both fact fully vaccinated. But but there
Speaker 4: is so much misinformation out there that it's easy to
Speaker 4: be led down the wrong path with it. So I'm sorry,
Speaker 4: I'm off my soapbox.
Speaker 2: Now there you go, so so HELI like your your
Speaker 2: kids on the younger end, like when my kids, like
Speaker 2: back in the early two thousands, when like the chicken
Speaker 2: pox vaccine came out, my daughter was like, Hey, we
Speaker 2: have the chicken pox vacne.
Speaker 1: Do you wearing kids to have it?
Speaker 2: I was like, yes, I didn't even question it because
Speaker 2: I had trusted in vaccines. With your you know, fully
Speaker 2: engrossed in the Internet age where misinformation happens all the time,
Speaker 2: did you struggle with those certain decisions when it came
Speaker 2: to vaccination or we're just like, I'm like, or did
Speaker 2: you have what sort of education did you have that
Speaker 2: you could sort through the bullshit? To really understand, like,
Speaker 2: you know, what's going to impact your child.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I was fortunate enough to already be somewhat
Speaker 3: reasonable by the time my son was born. Uh So
Speaker 3: I asked, I was already on the side of like, okay,
Speaker 3: like vaccines are not a bad thing. And I was.
Speaker 3: Actually I was in EMT school when we found out
Speaker 3: we were expect so I was learning medicine. I was
Speaker 3: kind of like learning how to like think critically and
Speaker 3: how like evidence is gathered. And that was really sort
Speaker 3: of my first introduction into like like data gathering type process.
Speaker 3: The teacher I had was fantastic. But so when it
Speaker 3: came to like me, when it comes to like, you know,
Speaker 3: medical decisions for my son, I talked to his pediatrician,
Speaker 3: who has all of his medical history, who has all
Speaker 3: of the knowledge and the education and the experience to
Speaker 3: look at the situation and evaluate him. And I can say,
Speaker 3: what do you recommend, and that pediatrician can say I
Speaker 3: recommend this, and I'll say, okay, And as long as
Speaker 3: like it's not obviously the wrong thing, Like who am
Speaker 3: I to suggest that I know better than a pediatrician
Speaker 3: that's twice my age. Probably I don't think I don't
Speaker 3: think they're that old, but uh yeah, and and and
Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong with being twice ways, but the fact
Speaker 3: that they they have the experience in their field to
Speaker 3: understand like, did I learn a little bit at one point?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Could I have had a conversation about like pediatric emergency
Speaker 3: medicine with that doctor at some point?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Maybe? Did I ever know more about them than pediatric medicine?
Speaker 3: Zero percent? Is that likely? I think that zero percent
Speaker 3: likely that that ever was the case. So yeah, I
Speaker 3: just trust what the profession, the professional, the experts say,
Speaker 3: unless it's clearing me wrong.
Speaker 1: So do I weird?
Speaker 3: That's not to say I'm sorry, sorry, I don't mean
Speaker 3: to keep going.
Speaker 1: Well, that's not to say that's.
Speaker 3: Not to say experts can't be wrong, Like it's not
Speaker 3: intended to be an argument from authority, like they can't
Speaker 3: be wrong. And if you feel like something's not right, yeah,
Speaker 3: of course check it. But like when the expert is
Speaker 3: saying like, hey, like the chance of injury is relatively low,
Speaker 3: and then like Kevin on YouTube is like, no, this
Speaker 3: is exactly what's going to happen. And I know it
Speaker 3: because I read about it on Facebook, Like I'm the doctor,
Speaker 3: is a better source than Kevin.
Speaker 4: Wait wait, wait what did Kevin? Wait? No, wait Kevin?
Speaker 3: It was Kevin.
Speaker 4: Kevin?
Speaker 1: So Kelly as the elder here.
Speaker 2: So do you think that, like, you know, because people
Speaker 2: haven't lived through you know, children die of measles or
Speaker 2: being affected by polio, for example, because those diseases have
Speaker 2: been eradicated for you know, especially like through when you
Speaker 2: were growing up and when I grew up, you know,
Speaker 2: with those diseases.
Speaker 1: Haven't been a thing like do they.
Speaker 2: Do you think that it is because like people aren't
Speaker 2: actually seeing these really extreme deficits of health to their
Speaker 2: children that is keeping them from understanding what it is,
Speaker 2: or do you think it's like something else.
Speaker 4: I think that's part of it. Sure, I mean that's
Speaker 4: that's definitely part of it. I had measles when I
Speaker 4: was a kid, I had chicken pox. I lived through
Speaker 4: all that stuff, and none of my kids did, None
Speaker 4: of my nieces or nephews did. So I see that
Speaker 4: as a reasonable of excuse for why some parents don't
Speaker 4: do it. And and a lot of now I'm older,
Speaker 4: but a lot of parents today they didn't see any
Speaker 4: of that when they were kids either. So they don't
Speaker 4: really understand that. You know, when the whole when the
Speaker 4: whole school got measles, one or two of the kids
Speaker 4: died from it. You know that they just don't get it.
Speaker 4: So I think that is definitely definitely a part of it.
Speaker 4: I think what I was saying before was a part
Speaker 4: of it too. I don't care about the whole thing.
Speaker 4: I just care about my child and what could happen
Speaker 4: to them. So there's kind of a bit of selfishness
Speaker 4: put involved in it too. And then we get also
Speaker 4: a lot of misinformation being put out there about how
Speaker 4: it's against your you know, a good a good follower
Speaker 4: of Jesus would never have something like this stuck into
Speaker 4: their body, you know, So that that's not helping either.
Speaker 4: There's a there's a whole bunch of different factors, but
Speaker 4: that's definitely one of them. It's definitely one of them.
Speaker 2: And I I think that feeds into the ignorance a lot.
Speaker 2: But but like you know, this particular article mentioned like
Speaker 2: the Mennonite community, which.
Speaker 1: Is you know that, and they are kind of a.
Speaker 2: Weird community because they're they're in between, they're not quite
Speaker 2: a must where they're completely isolated from you know a
Speaker 2: lot of society, even though they're constantly being influenced by it,
Speaker 2: like the Menonites kind of like you.
Speaker 1: Know, to the line between the two, you know.
Speaker 2: So they're exposed to certain levels of you know, secular life,
Speaker 2: they're exposed to certain levels of education. So I have
Speaker 2: to wonder again also too, because they are part of
Speaker 2: these religious sects, how much information are they getting and
Speaker 2: is the and do they know how to vet?
Speaker 1: And I guess that they don't, so, Tracy, Hi, and
Speaker 1: what what is your kind of feeling.
Speaker 2: With when it comes to medical expertise and where they're
Speaker 2: getting their information from? And should seculars a society be
Speaker 2: moving into these isolated communities to help educate them better
Speaker 2: even though their religious beliefs don't really.
Speaker 1: Want them to.
Speaker 5: So an important thing to understand about these religious sects.
Speaker 5: I know quite a few Amish families, and I've I've
Speaker 5: looked into the Amish quite a bit. I haven't really
Speaker 5: looked into the Mennonites. But this is this is my understanding.
Speaker 5: Whatever medical advice that they're given is then relayed to
Speaker 5: their elder, and then the elder tells them what it
Speaker 5: is that they're going to do that's not a vetting process.
Speaker 5: That's the elder checking with their tradition and their religious
Speaker 5: thoughts and interpretation. It's not a vetting process at all.
Speaker 5: They don't have one. They don't research these things. They
Speaker 5: just sit at at a surface level and whatever. And
Speaker 5: Kelly's right, there may be some misinformation that's been spread
Speaker 5: in there well, and they're not interested in debunking that
Speaker 5: information or looking deeper into it. They are only interested
Speaker 5: in their tradition. And I do think that we kind
Speaker 5: of owe the children. And I'm going to go off
Speaker 5: on this later about appealing to children, but I think
Speaker 5: there's a demonstrable harm here. There's five things that are needs,
Speaker 5: that are absolute needs that you will die if you
Speaker 5: do not have one of these things as far as
Speaker 5: I'm aware, and I could definitely be wrong, but they're food, water, shelter, medicine,
Speaker 5: and I had another one and I wrote it down
Speaker 5: food water, shelter, medicine, air. And they are depriving the
Speaker 5: children of one of those five things. This is I
Speaker 5: don't where's the line at which we're saying it's no
Speaker 5: longer a personal choice when you're depriving somebody of one
Speaker 5: of the things. They absolutely need in order to continue living.
Speaker 5: That's I do think we need to do something. I
Speaker 5: don't know what it is, but I think something needs
Speaker 5: to be done well.
Speaker 2: And it kind of ties back to we were talking
Speaker 2: to before about like, you know, even when we're talking
Speaker 2: about doctors.
Speaker 1: Being able to like you know, pick and choose you know, who.
Speaker 2: They're going to serve, it ties back into this, like
Speaker 2: with with parents also being able to choose what kind
Speaker 2: of medical care their children receive.
Speaker 1: We have to be able to find a balance between
Speaker 1: the two. Like and I think.
Speaker 2: That the lack of education, the lack of there's been
Speaker 2: erosions as Eli mentioned that you know, he's going to
Speaker 2: defer to his pediatrician tell the moment that his like
Speaker 2: you know, his Spidey sense goes, that doesn't seem right,
Speaker 2: let me go to you know, get more information, maybe
Speaker 2: get a second opinion, whatever that is. So I'm going
Speaker 2: to ask, like, Kelly, do you think it's like that
Speaker 2: lack of skepticism or so much skepticism that you you know,
Speaker 2: don't trust anyone and stuff for like an alter in
Speaker 2: your community, or you have so much skepticism that you
Speaker 2: don't trust anyone except for like you know why you
Speaker 2: listen to Kevin on Facebook?
Speaker 4: What's what that Kevin guy, that guy fucking knows everything?
Speaker 4: Doesn't know shit? Man, Man, I'll tell you a lot
Speaker 4: of viewers still a subscribers, like two point three million.
Speaker 4: It's it's really a tough thing because I don't you
Speaker 4: know what, I totally forgot your question again because I
Speaker 4: was thinking of something else. And I apologize.
Speaker 1: Just go on all you're thinking about it.
Speaker 4: It's fine, cool about what Tracy was saying earlier about
Speaker 4: you know, and I'm totally in agreement with man. I
Speaker 4: don't think you could. You can probably go on there
Speaker 4: in there with a truckload of information and they're not
Speaker 4: going to believe it because that information doesn't fit what
Speaker 4: they want to believe, where the misinformation does. Right, I
Speaker 4: want to believe this miss and I don't care if
Speaker 4: it's missing. They don't even care if it's missing. They
Speaker 4: don't know that it's information misinformation because they don't bother
Speaker 4: to check it out, because they lack that skepticism. I
Speaker 4: tied it back in your questionnaire, see that because they
Speaker 4: so so You're right. I mean, it's just like there
Speaker 4: is this there is a lack of skepticism on that side,
Speaker 4: and there is an overabundance of skepticism against authority figures.
Speaker 4: So you know, it's a weird thing, right, You got
Speaker 4: too much on one side and not enough on the other,
Speaker 4: and we're and you can't draw the line where the
Speaker 4: right amount of skepticism is, can you. I mean, it's
Speaker 4: a really weird It's like Loki's wager if you know
Speaker 4: what that is. If you don't know what Loki's wager is,
Speaker 4: go look it up.
Speaker 2: So, Eli, you mentioned like the leave it to your
Speaker 2: mother's things in your nose.
Speaker 1: As a mother, I was Myra went so, but what
Speaker 1: was your point with that?
Speaker 3: With the Lincoln to I am glad you're asking not
Speaker 3: only for the chance to clarify, but because it actually
Speaker 3: what has been spoken, Like what has been said is
Speaker 3: kind of reminded me of this. There seems to be
Speaker 3: this idea that mother knows best. It used to be
Speaker 3: father knows best. Now it's mother knows best. There's some
Speaker 3: combination of like, once you become a parent, you are
Speaker 3: imbued with the undeniable knowledge of what the absolute best
Speaker 3: choice is for your child, and that just isn't true, right,
Speaker 3: And I like this could be like in the wrong context,
Speaker 3: construed to be like anti mother, anti woman. I don't
Speaker 3: want it to be taken that way at all. I
Speaker 3: don't think even myself as a parent, I do not
Speaker 3: have infallible knowledge about what the best choice is for
Speaker 3: my son. And that's why I rely on experts like
Speaker 3: educators and like psychologists if that were to become necessary,
Speaker 3: psychiatrists in under the same context, medical professionals, whatever professionals
Speaker 3: that are in areas in which I have no knowledge,
Speaker 3: that's who I defer to when I'm seeking knowledge. And
Speaker 3: I just don't. And it is that improper application of
Speaker 3: skepticism because people don't like to have been wrong in
Speaker 3: the past, so they don't like to admit that maybe
Speaker 3: one of the choices I made for my child in
Speaker 3: the past wasn't the best choice, and now if I
Speaker 3: change my mind, now I have to admit that I
Speaker 3: didn't make the best choice before, and now I'm a
Speaker 3: bad parent. No, you're a bad parent if you continue
Speaker 3: to make the work like the not best choice in
Speaker 3: light of overwhelming evidence that the choice you're making is
Speaker 3: not the best choice. That's what makes your bad parent.
Speaker 3: Learning from your mistakes and teaching your child to learn
Speaker 3: from their mistakes and to admit when they got something wrong.
Speaker 3: That's what's going to make That's what makes you a
Speaker 3: good parent, because that makes your child an acceptable, like
Speaker 3: tolerable person to be around.
Speaker 5: Talk an, let's just look like a shelf of bibbleheads.
Speaker 2: I would I would ask the other people to be
Speaker 2: able to follow it up, but I don't think anybody
Speaker 2: could say it better. So, if you're interested in more
Speaker 2: content from us, here are the nonprofits.
Speaker 1: Find a video because there's all types of stuff, So
Speaker 1: do the thing.
Speaker 2: And also I'm going to remind you again to like
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Speaker 2: By everybody comments and comments