WEBVTT 1 00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:32.640 Welcome to mid Rats with sal from Commander Salamander, an 2 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:35.960 Eagle one from Eagle Speak at seer Shure your home 3 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.320 for a discussion of national security issues and all things maritime, 4 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:43.640 and welcome board everybody, right, you can join us here 5 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:48.759 for the new year, season sixteen of the mid Rats podcast. 6 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:51.759 Well you appreciate you and who will are with us live, 7 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:54.240 I'd like to invite you to go ahead and find 8 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:57.159 the chat room if you will have it on during 9 00:00:57.159 --> 00:00:58.479 the course of the show, and if you have an 10 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:01.280 observation you want to share or even a question you 11 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:03.640 want to address to the three of us, that's a 12 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:05.480 great place to do because we'll be watching it during 13 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:07.560 the course of the show and we'd love to take 14 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:10.879 your ideas on board. And as always i'll do the 15 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:13.079 Aultar call. If you're with us live or you're new 16 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:15.400 to mid Rats and you don't already, you can go 17 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.519 over to iTunes, Spreaker, wherever you get your podcasts, look 18 00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:21.319 us up, find us and subscribe that way. If you 19 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:24.000 can't join us live all the time, you can at 20 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:26.519 least have us waiting for you when you have a time. 21 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:29.879 Better of your convenience. And as I said, this is 22 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:35.120 the sixteenth season. That means this is our fifteenth anniversary show, 23 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:39.879 and it's amazing how fast time flies. And I couldn't 24 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:43.040 think of a better way to have the fifteenth anniversary 25 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:46.840 show then to bring on somebody that is as responsible 26 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:50.000 or at fault as marking myself for mid Rats. And 27 00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:53.719 he really needs no introduction for the regulars. But if 28 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:57.319 you want to know all the publicly available details about 29 00:01:57.319 --> 00:01:59.560 our guests, it will be on the show page and 30 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:01.719 you can go click and all his good stuff there. 31 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:04.719 But he's not just a friend of the show, but 32 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.039 he's a personal friend to Mark and I a great 33 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:12.080 author and a great company as well. Claude Barribey, Claude, 34 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:14.800 thank you very much for helping us to share our 35 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:16.280 fifteenth anniversary show together. 36 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:20.439 Well Salad, Mark, I still can't believe it's been fifteen years, 37 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:25.479 and you're right tempest fugit And when you think of 38 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:29.039 when you started this and how it's evolved, I think 39 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.599 what's really incredible is you guys have been so consistent 40 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:34.479 about it. One of the things that I've told people 41 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:36.840 over the years is that this is the c span 42 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:42.080 for the Navy, because you all allow people time to 43 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.800 answer there are no gotcha questions. I've in all the 44 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.400 years that I've been listening to mid rats, I don't 45 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:52.039 think I've heard one gotcha question. And you guys ask 46 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:57.319 some solid questions, some broad based questions, and let the 47 00:02:57.599 --> 00:02:59.199 let the authors answer it. I think it's the same 48 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.599 way that Brian Lamb used to do his interviews for 49 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:06.639 book notes. And I appreciate that because you hear from 50 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:09.199 the experts. 51 00:03:09.319 --> 00:03:12.800 It's that's a high compliment. I was a fan of 52 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.520 Brian Lamb because it was not in your face. He 53 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:17.560 didn't try to trip you up or anything like that. 54 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:23.199 And you know, I am relatively mortal, so I couldn't 55 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:26.280 help myself. But in preparation for the fifteen year fifteenth 56 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:29.039 anniversary show, you know you and I, you know, we 57 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.759 talked a few months ago about blogging and writing online 58 00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:34.960 and a lot of the players, like the folks we 59 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.719 have here, are still added after a couple of decades, 60 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:40.919 I went, you know what about on the podcasting point 61 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:43.439 of view? And well, first of all, when you if 62 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:47.639 you go to AI Grock and open AIS chat GPT, 63 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:52.719 you have to remind them because they'll say, oh, the 64 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:58.240 longest military related podcast. It's not a History podcast started 65 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:00.879 twenty eighteen. Just you give him a problem, you sure 66 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:03.960 you don't want to look deeper. And if you're looking 67 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:09.400 at a podcast that has gone uninterrupted, we are the 68 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:13.719 longest national security podcasts, which pret a little feather here. 69 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:16.519 I guess we're just obstinate and pernicious about wanting to 70 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.680 talk about the things we're passionate about. But when I 71 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:23.000 was looking at it, that was twenty ten when Mark 72 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:27.240 and the late Raymond otherwise z Owes is colern to a 73 00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:31.360 lot of folks and we started chatting here and you 74 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.279 can find those they're all available online. 75 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:35.160 You know, you go back. 76 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:40.920 Fifteen years from there, that's nineteen ninety five, and in 77 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:42.480 the context of you know, one of the things we 78 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.560 want to talk about today is in nineteen ninety five, 79 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:48.199 besides the fact I was a lieutenant who was debating 80 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:54.519 writing resignation letter more than once, the information space for 81 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:58.759 those whether they're inside the government, outside the government, or 82 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:02.319 just standardish at tech, if they wanted to read about 83 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:06.439 naval issues, national security issues, there was a very very 84 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:10.959 narrowed environment and sources that they could dive into. And 85 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.519 here we find ourselves, you know, thirty years later from 86 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:17.600 nineteen ninety five. And it's not just people who are 87 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:22.800 writing individually online. There's online newspapers almost there's lots of 88 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:25.759 War on the Rocks is one example. Places that have 89 00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:28.959 lots of sources that you can dive into, quasi official 90 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:32.439 ones like the Modern War Institute, which I think the 91 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:37.000 Modern War Institute's spear started in twenty twelve, about two 92 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:39.399 years after we did. I think they're the second longest 93 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:42.120 running one continuously. And some people say there's too many 94 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:44.759 places to get information. I don't think so, but that 95 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:50.279 just in our adult part of our adult experience, it's 96 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:54.480 amazing the amount of information that is available there and 97 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:59.040 almost real time, concerning national security and defense issues. And 98 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:02.079 I'm curious causes somebody who has seen this from not 99 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:05.120 just a consumer but a producer. You've run a couple 100 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.360 of podcasts, you've got a new one coming up. You've 101 00:06:07.639 --> 00:06:11.040 a prolific author and a writer online, but you're also 102 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:15.720 a consumer, and you have worked on the political side 103 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:18.279 of the spectrum and the official DoD side of the 104 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.759 spectrum as an Intel officer. Yeah, look at that thirty 105 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:24.800 year thirty year spread. You know, how do you see 106 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:27.040 that with all those little hats that you wear in 107 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:27.480 your life. 108 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.600 You know, I actually liken it a bit too. When 109 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:34.240 Brian Lamb started c SPAN to go back to somebody 110 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:39.319 we mentioned, and he essentially democratized the process of listening 111 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:42.160 in and contributing because he would have these columns. He 112 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:44.040 didn't know where they were going to go, and sometimes 113 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:47.120 they went really a arry. Now, the upside is that 114 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.759 you have time with experts. The downside is you have 115 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:52.079 a lot of non experts who think they're experts. So 116 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:54.759 it's trying to sift through that. I think the way 117 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:59.399 the national security ecosystem for all of this information has 118 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:03.639 played out is directly proportional to how the legacy media 119 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:09.160 has played out the past thirty years, along with how 120 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:12.759 you have this proliferation of media, and we have to 121 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:15.480 ask ourselves get back to the question of what is 122 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:18.240 the media? Well, how do you define media? Is it 123 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:22.920 simply CBS ABC In a new generation? It then became 124 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:26.360 including CNN and MSNBC and Fox. And then you have 125 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:30.279 this era of all of these outlets as the Internet 126 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:35.160 provided outlets for them, Social media provided outlets, websites, blogs, 127 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:37.160 and I wrote about this the year I think it 128 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:39.800 was a year before midrat started and it was an 129 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:45.160 article I wrote called shoot with the Navy can Handle 130 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:48.600 the Truth creative friction, I think, sorry, it's been a 131 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:49.319 while since I wrote it. 132 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.600 Quite creative friction without conflict. 133 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:55.720 Thanks, And in it I looked at what was then 134 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:59.759 a PBS show called Carrier, which I thought was phenomenal 135 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:03.480 because as it really showed sailors lives. You had bloggers 136 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:06.519 like you all, and I mentioned at that time Van 137 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:10.399 Avery who had Destroyer Man, and I mentioned the entire bloggersphere. 138 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:13.399 And so what you had is a way for people 139 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:17.399 to provide their expertise. Example, Dan Rather, I had a 140 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:21.120 piece on President George W. Bush and a supposed letter 141 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:25.199 that was detrimental regarding his National security National Card Service, 142 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:26.800 and all of a sudden, I think it was a 143 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.319 blogger who had this one expertise, and his expertise was 144 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:34.320 historical scripts or fonts. 145 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:35.320 That was his. 146 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:39.159 Baileywick and he was able to disprove Dan Rather and said, 147 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:41.240 oh no, this font didn't exist in the year that 148 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:44.080 this letter, So the letter is absolutely false. So I 149 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:48.120 think what you're seeing is the benefit of democratizing media. 150 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:50.720 But there's also a downside, and I'm going to use 151 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:54.440 the late Raymond Pritchett as an example, also known as Galron, 152 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:59.000 and I think Raymond was probably one of the most 153 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:03.000 insightful naval analysts of the early twenty first century. Why 154 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:05.960 he was completely outside of the system. I mean, remember 155 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:08.320 when he was writing anonymously, people thought he must have 156 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:12.200 been some current or active or retired captain based on 157 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.320 his knowledge and the questions he was going at. But 158 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:20.559 Raymond had this incredible ability to sort through the that 159 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:25.600 was often sent out by different outlets and get to 160 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:30.559 basic questions. And he would ask these these incredibly insightful 161 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:35.279 questions and then provide an analysis based on what he saw. 162 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:42.519 That's the upside. The downside is, and I'm speaking from 163 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:48.279 my historian's cap here, I in one hundred years, it's 164 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:53.480 very unlikely people will know about this. Here's why you 165 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:56.120 and Mark and I probably remember driving cars that had 166 00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:59.039 eight track cassette players. Well, even if you get an 167 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:01.200 eight track tape today, if you know what it is, 168 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:02.960 you may not be able to find a player, or 169 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:04.960 if you do, it's going to chew up your tape. 170 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:07.639 In the same way, we think that everything that is 171 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.639 going online today will be available in the future. So 172 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:14.879 unless you have hard copies like the New York Times. 173 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:17.120 I like the New York Times. I have a subscription 174 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:22.039 because of the archive archival material available. It is a 175 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:25.799 record for one hundred and sixty seventy years now. There 176 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:28.639 are a few places like that that still print and 177 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:32.799 that will be accepted into, say the Library of Congress. However, 178 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:39.000 places like Galaron's website Information Dissemination, which had rich analyzes 179 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:44.240 that was often counter to what was being submitted or 180 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:49.320 promulgated by the Pentagon and other Navy adjacent organizations. His 181 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:53.000 work may be lost to history, and I think the 182 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:56.960 democratization is also a tragedy in that way from the 183 00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:59.799 future understanding our era better. 184 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:05.639 That's an interesting perspective. As a guy who grew up 185 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.279 with a newspaper reporter mother and a newspaper reporting brother, 186 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:14.480 I'm very sympathetic to the print media. But the immediacy 187 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:17.879 of the print media is not available as it is 188 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:21.240 is the instant, virtually instant reporting we get in these 189 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:25.679 days on things like X and and even these podcasts, 190 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:28.639 which are much can be much more immediate than than 191 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:31.559 the old print media. I don't know if it will endure. 192 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:33.679 I don't know if if people just you know, they're 193 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:35.919 going to tune into the things they want to listen to. 194 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:40.480 And sometimes, you know, you you don't read the some 195 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:43.200 some newspapers because they don't agree with you politically, and 196 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:46.519 you're you know, you just can't stomach of reading them. 197 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:49.879 But I'm pretty sure people will listen to different podcasts 198 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:52.480 based on their own biases and all that, and that 199 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:56.120 to me is, you know, that's one of the benefits, 200 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.240 except that we don't always know. What we don't know 201 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:01.200 is to paraphrase one of our firm I guess. So 202 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:03.759 the good news is that you get immediate feedback and 203 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:06.120 a lot of these on a lot of these other channels. 204 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:08.559 So if you make a if you make a bonehead 205 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:12.200 mistake on a blog post, just often somebody will point 206 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.399 it out right away to you. Or if you do 207 00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:16.840 that on X god forbid, you don't just get one 208 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:19.639 person giving you feedback. And I'll use the example of 209 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:23.399 the mat Gets misspelling or misusing the word Marshall when 210 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:25.759 he was talking about the imposition of martial law somewhere. 211 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:28.279 You know, he got lasted for that. And I don't 212 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:30.840 know him at all, and he may maybe he just 213 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:34.200 is totally uneducated. But you know, that kind of feedback 214 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:37.279 is something that the mainstream media did not get and 215 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.440 hasn't gotten used to. So I think that that is 216 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:44.840 an aspect of the current media, which is this electronic 217 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:49.279 The speed with which it can be things can be fixed, corrected, adjusted, 218 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:52.039 and the truth can be gotten out, I think is 219 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.480 really important in terms of where the media is going. 220 00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:57.759 I think a lot of the things that we've discussed 221 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:00.639 over the years, everything from shipbuilding to the right of China. 222 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:03.639 You know, a lot of that wasn't getting reported by 223 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.480 the people that were like the Washington Post. I don't 224 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.279 think they were really covering what China was up to, 225 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:11.919 you know, ten fifteen years ago, like we were. 226 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:16.200 That's a really good point. And you know you mentioned 227 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:19.000 this because when something I used to I used to 228 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.480 show my students was a letter, an actual original letter 229 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:26.039 from the early eighteen hundreds by a naval officer to 230 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:28.399 his wife, and I had some for where he was 231 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:30.919 sending things to other naval officers as well, and I 232 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:33.799 explained to them, I said, look, you can understand they're 233 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:36.279 a little bit of their mindset because you see in 234 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:41.279 print what they're discussing with either their fellow naval officers 235 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:44.480 or their wives. That's why, in a way we are 236 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:46.799 in a dark age or what may be in the 237 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:50.039 future referred to as a dark age of information, because 238 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:52.840 everybody's texting each other. Those things are not person Well, 239 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:55.000 I'm sure there's some people who preserve those things, but 240 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:59.480 those will not necessarily be preserved and available for future generations. 241 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:03.279 So you don't know how people are interacting, who they're 242 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:07.440 interacting with in a way that you could literally going 243 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:12.200 back to the qunea form and the people using vellum 244 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:15.840 and quills and every other device you had. To your 245 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:19.440 other point about the availability of expertise, yeah, I agree. 246 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:22.600 I think, especially with the early Navy bloggers, you had 247 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:27.639 people who were are experts in a way that somebody 248 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:31.159 from the Washington Post, unless they were a naval officer 249 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:33.799 or a Marine officer, wouldn't be able to understand. They 250 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:38.360 might not understand the questions or the nuances about a 251 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:44.080 ship or aircraft. So in that way, it's extremely helpful 252 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:48.919 to have these podcasts and these websites where the experts 253 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:55.840 are talking and explaining things, you know, folding right into 254 00:14:55.879 --> 00:15:00.240 that and where I think it has become what for 255 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.000 a lot of us was either just a hobby or 256 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.320 our therapy and writing has become essential. 257 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:10.879 And that's because I was really trying to talk myself 258 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.200 out of this observation a few years ago, and I 259 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:16.799 was like, no, no, it's a fair observation. But there 260 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:21.440 has been a general retreat by official Navy and their 261 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:25.360 pos from engagement. You mentioned that mini series on Carrier, 262 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:27.840 and I know you and I have talked about it before. 263 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.360 There were some people and they were a minority, who 264 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:35.480 got energized about it because they couldn't micromanage every two seconds, 265 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:38.559 but it really showed our sailors in a great light. 266 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:40.759 One of those things similar. It'd be great to have 267 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:45.440 had a similar crew on board the Eisenhower the last 268 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:48.960 year with Captain Hill as the CEO. He was really active. 269 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.919 He kind of did it himself to show our sailors, 270 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:55.200 and when you do that, it always turns out really well. 271 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:58.799 But something has changed back to when we had the 272 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:03.240 embeds back in two and three, things started to retreat 273 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.440 from the general space. And I remember, I know y'all 274 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:10.480 have had similar experiences working both directly and indirectly with 275 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:13.879 public affairs officers, either in an official or unofficial way, 276 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.120 and I am willing to put a stake in the 277 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:21.200 ground that two of the best people that I saw 278 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:23.840 on how they productively. When I defined productively, it is 279 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:28.399 not productively for me, it's productive for the Navy productively 280 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:33.200 interfaced with both traditional and also new people in the 281 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:38.720 information space. That was Chris Servello and it was Charlie Brown, 282 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.360 and those two people had an interesting intersection where I 283 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:46.039 kind of draw the line where something happened. I would 284 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:50.320 love to see the email exchange and the memorandums it 285 00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:57.799 took place. But in the transition from CNO. Richardson to CNO. Gilday, 286 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:02.639 there was that whole experience with Admiral Moran. Charlie Brown 287 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:04.799 was was pretty well engaged in the open on this. 288 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:07.599 But after that experience, that's when a lot of the 289 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.079 doors and the culture which had already been narrowing, really 290 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:16.680 started to narrow. And you know, Claude, from your perspective, 291 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:18.720 which is different than ours, I mean, I don't want 292 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.599 to speak for Mark either. He may have a different 293 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.720 take on this, but at least for me, is that 294 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.839 a fair observation? And how have you seen how pos 295 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:30.640 have changed, not just from the three Invasion but let's 296 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:32.160 just put a mark in the ground when we started 297 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:35.519 the podcast in twenty ten, because it really really has 298 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:39.200 gotten gotten more difficult, especially in the last five years. 299 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:41.960 I think I'm going to draw from more of my 300 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:46.039 civilian experience from this, especially the three times I worked 301 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:48.119 on the Hill, but also observing some other things. So 302 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:52.119 I don't think it's just a po issue that you 303 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:56.279 just suggested. Let's take a bird's eye view of the 304 00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:59.359 United States, and I think what you're seeing, whether it's 305 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:03.640 the White House press secretaries, that's either administration, or the 306 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.039 way individuals present themselves on Meet the Press or whatever 307 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:13.039 there and organizations which have corporate communications officers. You have 308 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:16.440 a brand, you have messaging for that brand, and you 309 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:19.039 have marketing for that brand. The last thing you want 310 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:22.039 to do is taint the brand, and so your messaging 311 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.799 and your marketing is going to reflect that. So I 312 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:27.720 have to wonder, with all the issues that were happening 313 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.599 in the past sixteen fifteen years in the Navy, whether 314 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:35.480 that was reflective of a greater proportion of major issues. 315 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:38.039 You look at the Fat Leonard scandal, for example. I 316 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:41.440 took a look at how various outlets were portraying or 317 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:44.480 not reporting on the Fat Leonard scandal. I mean, if 318 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:48.440 you're an entity that accepts corporate sponsorships, and part of 319 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.759 that has to do with retired flag officers, are you 320 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:54.119 going to be reporting on Fat Leonard in the same 321 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:57.279 way that say, an article might appear in SIMSEK And 322 00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.559 I don't think that's the case. They're not going to 323 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:01.920 talk about something negative. I mean, I've got, you know, 324 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:05.640 a pile of emails and other things over the years 325 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:10.440 where a message from a Navy organization was completely false 326 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.960 and so and that went out to the media, and 327 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.039 you know I had the evidence. No, no, this is 328 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.160 absolutely not true. And you just have to, I think, 329 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.880 in a way accept that because if you look at 330 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.480 the media, whether it's the legacy media of the past, 331 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.839 you know, fifty years or take newspapers of the eighteen thirties. 332 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:30.960 I'm pretty familiar with those from my PhD, where he 333 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:35.039 had Jacksonian and anti Jacksonian papers. The Jacksonian papers weren't 334 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:37.839 going to say anything negative about Jackson, and the anti 335 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:41.920 Jacksonian papers weren't going to say anything positive about Jackson. 336 00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:45.240 And I think it's simply the same case today with 337 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.599 whatever kind of organization you have you're not going to 338 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:50.920 see that. And that's why even I who as a kid, 339 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:53.279 when the afternoon paper would come in, you know, and 340 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:55.359 after my buddies and I had got been all playing 341 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.319 football or baseball or whatever season it was ice hockey, 342 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:00.000 I'd actually read the paper because I was kind of, 343 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:02.799 you know, interestedly what's going on. I don't do that 344 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.920 as much today. Part of the reason is because I 345 00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:08.400 have to start questioning and okay, well, who owns this 346 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:10.359 and this. In the case of Maine, for example, we 347 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:13.720 had the largest paper of Portland's Press Herald, which still exists, 348 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:17.160 and at the time, let's see Shelley, Congressman Pingree's been 349 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:19.839 in for I think twenty years as a member of Congress. Well, 350 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:22.759 our husband, a billionaire, owned the Portland Press Herald. So 351 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:24.799 you knew that anything coming out of the Portland Press 352 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.839 Herald was going to be positive or at least not 353 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:31.279 negative to Congresswoman Pingree. So what you're starting to see 354 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:35.599 even in this state today, the local papers aren't covering 355 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:39.559 certain issues, they're not doing investigative journalism, and so it's 356 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:43.039 the rise of these outside entities that are trying to 357 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:46.640 do it. As media influencers. I think I'm not sure 358 00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:50.640 that's probably what we're seeing today with the Navy as well. 359 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.240 You're not going to see a recruiting ad for the 360 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:55.640 Navy that says, oh, hey, join us. You know we 361 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:57.799 really let us tell you about Fat Leonard. Now you're 362 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:01.160 going to show football helmets and in the sky and 363 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:04.119 you know, a ship going off to war. You're not 364 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:06.559 going to talk about the negative. And I think as 365 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:10.119 long as you understand where they're coming from, you can fat. 366 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.599 You can look at alternate media outlets. 367 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:16.720 Yeah, boy, you've touched on a lot of things. There 368 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:20.720 the during the Vietnam War that the military got very 369 00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:23.559 wary of the newspaper reports. They didn't think they were 370 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.359 getting fair coverage, and that you know that they cut 371 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:31.440 off a lot of access. They there were the follies 372 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.119 where they press was getting briefed by the by the 373 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:36.599 professional briefers, and they didn't believe a word of what 374 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.720 was being said. And you know that went on. That 375 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:43.039 distressed of the media grew. That went through a whole 376 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.799 generation or maybe two generations of people until Desert Storm 377 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:49.880 when they began to embed reporters. You know, that works 378 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.559 pretty well and as fine and dandy as long as 379 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.119 the stories are good. But then you get you know, 380 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:58.279 the concerns. You get an Abu grab or a or 381 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:00.920 a you know, another Negati story, and all of a sudden, 382 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:04.039 all these it's like turtles, you know, they had their 383 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:06.359 heads stuck out, and all of a sudden they go 384 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.240 back into full retreat. And then they only want to 385 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.799 have good news. And then you see things like the 386 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:15.359 classification of the Inserve reports. You see that that they 387 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:20.279 don't want any negativity. So you you you get, uh, 388 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:26.519 we don't get necessarily accurate stories about what the problems 389 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:29.519 are with say the paint on navy ships. I mean, 390 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:32.359 I would like to have CNO or the NAVCI or 391 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:34.519 some of the condes says, yeah, we're restricted in their 392 00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:37.599 use of quality paint because of you know, the the 393 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.359 ecological people that the say we can't use this stuff 394 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:43.839 we were using because it hurts the environment. I mean, 395 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:46.720 you know, I just that kind of of honesty, and 396 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:49.079 I you know, you worry. I worry. I look at 397 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:53.119 things like the the tilt rotor aircraft and nobody thinks 398 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:55.640 they're safe, but they're gosh, we're still flying them. And 399 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:58.799 I'm wondering, you know what General or admiral is going 400 00:22:58.839 --> 00:23:01.839 to stand up and say, uh, after we lose another 401 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:03.880