WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:10.599 You see, something's going to happen. What what's going to happen? 2 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:18.359 What I to. 3 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:22.920 Help it. 4 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:24.480 To? 5 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:28.480 The saturnine point of aridity. And the real test isn't 6 00:00:28.519 --> 00:00:32.520 whether you practice when it feels magical, it's whether you 7 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:35.119 keep going when it feels dry. These are all quotes 8 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:37.799 from the book, which some of which I'll keep in, 9 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:40.719 some of which I will rewrite, rework and turn into 10 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:45.079 new and brilliant paragraphs. So yeah, I essentially argue that 11 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:48.560 devotion matters more than spiritual thrills. Probably won't be a 12 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:53.159 shocker to anyone here. And another quote is I say 13 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:57.119 the work becomes true. Work becomes true invoking into it 14 00:00:57.159 --> 00:00:59.560 the spirit only when the goal of pleasure is replaced 15 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:02.520 by the petiss of devotion. So one of my main 16 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:05.480 messages is that pleasure is not the measure of truth 17 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:09.840 in spiritual work, of course, and that's just an example 18 00:01:09.879 --> 00:01:14.239 of my approach and the I think important differentiation between 19 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:19.159 subjective and object realities in this particular interpretation of the 20 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:20.359 Tree of Evil. 21 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:32.000 Thank you man. Is there any questions before I went forward? 22 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:35.439 So I wanted to kind of ask you some of 23 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:39.840 this stuff. I think we kind of like asked this 24 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:43.640 that is, I think we kind of answered it anyway, 25 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:45.680 but it kind of makes sense with the question I 26 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:51.280 have afterwards. Do you interpret clippothic forces as actual entities, 27 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:57.480 archetypal structures, psychological realities, some combination of these, or how 28 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:03.480 do you look at them? 29 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:06.760 Yeah, I mean I've answered that kind of but not explicitly, 30 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:09.919 I suppose. I mean, again, the cop out, though it feels, 31 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:11.599 does feel a bit of a cop out to say 32 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:14.599 people can deal with them however they want, but it 33 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:17.439 depends on what you're working with them for and how 34 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:20.879 that determines how you're working with them, right, if you're 35 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:25.800 if you're seeing them as things to be purified and transmuted, 36 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:30.120 like David Heimsmith does, so that you can experience God 37 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:33.520 more fully. Though let's put a big, you know, double 38 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:36.199 quotes on the word experience there, especially if you know 39 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:43.719 David Heinsmith's work at all. So it does it, you know, 40 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:46.080 do I see are they they are archetypal in the 41 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:49.319 sense that we can conceive of them as archetypes the 42 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:52.039 real beings, in the sense that we do often as 43 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:55.199 human beings, and in the in the in the field 44 00:02:55.199 --> 00:03:00.560 of phenomena experience them phenomenologically right, Like, they might not 45 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.919 be metaphysically ontologically real, but we certainly have to deal 46 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:08.919 with them in terms of ordinal phenomenology, and in the 47 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:13.719 layers of our experience of reality, they become real. So again, 48 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:15.039 I don't know if I would put them in the 49 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:18.280 same category as I would dimonase which we see as 50 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:23.000 real entities or spirits. I don't know if I would. 51 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:27.599 You can certainly turn them into entities through many different 52 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:29.960 magical means, or just building them up in your mind 53 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.080 to the point at which you know you become possessed 54 00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:36.199 by that edity. If you focus on the clipo of 55 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:39.759 death and destruction, that could be several of them, So 56 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.360 take your pick. And of course there's tons more in 57 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:44.400 the Book of Horns that we don't even know about 58 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.479 in the non Hebrew speaking world yet because no one's 59 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:53.919 translating it. That might change after this podcast, eh, some 60 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:55.639 one might be like, what the fuck? How do we 61 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:57.800 miss this? It's like, well, because you don't pay attention, 62 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:00.759 So that's okay. I mean, doctors, I just talked about 63 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:03.560 the Book of Horns, tons and no one's done anything 64 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:05.840 about it. When I told him, I paid someone to translated, 65 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:08.919 he just laughed. He was like, ah, I was like, fuck, 66 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:11.439 you just drink your absence. The shut up. It's like 67 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:13.919 it would be interesting for us to him, it wouldn't 68 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:16.040 be of any interest because you know he's an atheist. 69 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:18.560 So but it's just a fight. It would just be 70 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:21.560 a wild, crazy demon text by a you know, by 71 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:27.079 a martyred rabbi. So yeah, we we can. We can 72 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:29.360 deal with these things as nties, But I don't think 73 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:32.879 it's healthy too reify them as such. What benefit is 74 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:35.600 there too that you know if you reify like so, 75 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:37.920 Kenneth Grant's point of view is like, we experience the 76 00:04:37.959 --> 00:04:43.519 path demons and we connect the sphere demons by indulging 77 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:45.600 in the path demons. What does that mean? That means 78 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:49.839 living out those demonic forces. So if you reify a 79 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:53.560 clipo of death and destruction, that means you're destroying things. 80 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:58.120 That means you're killing things, and then you are connected 81 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:01.360 with that clipo, you are possessed. Buy that clipo you 82 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:04.839 want to work with thawmil great, you will divide yourself 83 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:08.920 against yourself, which you know it happens whenever in psychology 84 00:05:08.920 --> 00:05:12.319 we have any experience of object identification at all, which 85 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:14.560 is like Jen was saying earlier, why it's so nuts 86 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:17.839 how many people are hyper focused on their identity these days, 87 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:20.160 because what we know from psychology, one of the very 88 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:23.279 few ideas that has not been overturned since Freud and 89 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:25.879 Jung because most of their ideas about how the mind 90 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:28.600 and sub conscious and shadow work, we know that's all 91 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:32.000 nonsense now. But one of the main things psychologists seem 92 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:34.639 to have continued to keep as true to this day 93 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:39.160 is object identification. You identify with something, it fractures your 94 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:42.439 psyche into that which you are, and that's which you 95 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:45.079 identify with. And your identification can even be with a 96 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:48.000 self identity, and that causes a fracture and leads to 97 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:53.519 schizoid psychosis if you keep going with it. And so 98 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:58.240 you know, users beware, or as I say on the 99 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:02.759 cover of the book, warning demons. You know, like, however, 100 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:06.079 you want to see that focusing on this stuff comes 101 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:09.560 at risk, just like focusing on anything disgusting and sick 102 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:12.360 comes at risk. And you'll know that if you've explored 103 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.879 the Internet, it's darker corners for any amount of time. 104 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:18.120 How do you sleep that night? 105 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:22.240 Well, the next question I have I guess this wouldrobably 106 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:24.519 also depend on I guess which way you're looking at 107 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:30.079 it or using it? What role do names, correspondences, seals, 108 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:35.040 and ritual forms play in structuring contact with these forces 109 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:37.959 or things? How are you looking at it? 110 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:41.319 Oh, I'm so glad you asked that question. I'm so 111 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.199 glad you asked that question because that is the big one, 112 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:48.120 that is, in many ways one of the big questions. Well, 113 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:52.319 Kenneth Grant did a lot of that, right. The gamatria 114 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:55.120 is the perfect example, like trying to understand the nature 115 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:57.639 of the path demons in terms of their gamatria and 116 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.240 guess what that was one of the things I did 117 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.319 focus on from his taking his lead, because gematria is 118 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:07.040 a useful tool. Anyone who thinks that it's some secret 119 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:10.639 code to show how things really are is completely miss 120 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:13.240 the point of it. It's a spiritual exercise, just like 121 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:17.199 anything is that helps you understand the map you're working 122 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:21.319 with better, but not necessarily the terrain. Maybe it will 123 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:25.879 help you gain insights or phenomenal glimpses of how these 124 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:29.439 things play out in your life or reality. But yeah, 125 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:33.480 the gamatria is a great example of that. Looking at 126 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:36.079 the names looking at the numbers, seeing what they connect with, 127 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:38.959 and seeing if an inspiration comes from your noose, from 128 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.279 your higher self. That gives you some insight into how 129 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.519 this clipote works and how it can be better transmuted 130 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.600 or dealt with when it manifests in your life, because 131 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:51.680 a lot of these things do clipboat manifest physically in 132 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:57.920 our lives through the bad things that we experience or 133 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:00.959 or heaven forbid, do in the world world, and that 134 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:06.759 is very real. Let's see, let's see if I can 135 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:14.759 give an example. Yeah, keep going, I'll just see if 136 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:17.160 I have a good example from my notes. 137 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.959 Yeah, I want to read something from the chat and 138 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:24.839 I think it's funny. Actually I don't know exactly the 139 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:27.639 context I try to understanding here, but anyways, I'm just 140 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:30.120 gonna pull it up and I think it's funny the 141 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:33.480 person said or wrote it. Again, No, they're not one 142 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:37.000 hundred percent of context, but they wrote no risk with Jesus. 143 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:42.240 And I was thinking, how, like again the concept that 144 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:45.600 we were talking about right of the symbols being emptied, 145 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:50.399 how that happens so often with zooteric things. So again 146 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:54.840 the alter example things where you're gonna have the symbol 147 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:57.679 that people. Everyone kind of has their own idea of 148 00:08:57.720 --> 00:08:59.200 the thing. So at the end of the day, it's 149 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:02.919 not really like it's not really anything because everyone has 150 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:06.360 their different idea. For example, Jesus is one of those things, right, 151 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:08.919 and if you ask people to kind of speak about it, 152 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:13.639 they will kind of gravitate towards some kind of thing 153 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:15.840 or the same with like Buddha or whatever, like the again, 154 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:22.600 the exoteric concepts or even sometimes again right, everyone who 155 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.399 kind of have their own very different thing if they 156 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:31.159 just superficiously study about it. So again don't know their 157 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:34.240 context what they said. But there is indeed a lot 158 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:37.200 of risk if you just want to get something packaged 159 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:40.600 to you. You know, that's the actually the greatest risk, 160 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:44.879 couthy because again you're just getting something pre made for you, 161 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:48.200 and that comes with a lot of preconceptions. Right. So 162 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:52.639 for example, if we are talking about Jesus, a lot 163 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:57.080 of people will have the image of him suffering, you know, 164 00:09:57.159 --> 00:10:00.159 with the crown and in blood and whatever. And then 165 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:03.000 and imagine you have that in your imagination all the time, 166 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:07.480 what exactly is gonna you know, calls to you again, 167 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:11.000 no shade in Jesus, you can use that simple tiffer 168 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:14.879 at whoever you want. Just if you get the prepackaged version, 169 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:17.440 exactly are you gonna work with that? You know, the 170 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:20.360 always being in sacrifice, always being this and this one. 171 00:10:21.159 --> 00:10:25.480 So again, just thought it was very funny the comment 172 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:28.120 there again, don't know the complex that didnt com what 173 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:29.440 that came into my life matters. 174 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:33.600 And you know, it's interesting because that's such a feature 175 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:39.000 of modern Christian theology, so process theology at work, because 176 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:43.200 that would only be viewable, visible, conceivable in a world 177 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:45.919 in which we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. 178 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:49.559 But early Christians had no belief in that, right, that's 179 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:53.080 a modern idea quote unquote modern he goes back to Protestantism. 180 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:56.320 But this idea that you have a direct personal relationship 181 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:02.200 with Christ isn't found in original Christianity. So that really 182 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:06.039 mitigates the risk of having oh I have my Jesus, 183 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:08.480 you have your Jesus. We all have our own Jesuses. 184 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:11.639 They didn't have that view originally in Christianity. It was 185 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:15.000 all about the communal relationship with Christ. You find come 186 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.759 to Christ through your community. And so it's quite a 187 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:26.000 modern problem that one of fragmenting interpretations individually in ways 188 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.639 that then don't connect us to anyone except to our 189 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.960 own mystical experience. And what good is that for human 190 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.799 life if we're all just you know, trapped in our 191 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:39.919 own sollipsism. I have an example I found here in 192 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:42.919 the text of my book, which I will elucidate, which 193 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:51.840 is what to the previous point of yours? So sigils 194 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:56.679 symbols gematria. How does all that come into play with 195 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:59.120 the cleipbout? How is that useful? Well, here's a really 196 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:03.120 simple example. So sloth is especially related as a vice 197 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:08.759 to sagittarius through the geomantic symbol acquisitio. So here's geomancy 198 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.879 as a tool within this context, and you find it 199 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:15.120 within the path or tunnel of set excuse me of 200 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:20.480 the sigil of that demon of Saturn tantifaxat and Saint 201 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:24.559 John of the Cross describes sloth as an opposite of 202 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.159 the quality to the quality of Saturn. So that is, 203 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:32.320 the initiate will dislike most spiritual pursuits because they are 204 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:36.840 void of sweetness and incompatible with sensual pleasure. But the 205 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:39.679 sigil acquisitsio right there shows you how you could work 206 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.200 with that. Well, you can make a sigil or a 207 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:45.720 seal or a talisman, or any number of rituals using 208 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:49.960 Acquisitsio and the sigils derived from Aquisitsio or even the 209 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:55.799 archangel of Sagittarius to then mitigate your own struggles with 210 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:59.399 sloth and sloth as it's defined in this context, not 211 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:02.360 necessarily the pop cultural one, but maybe you can use 212 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:04.480 it that way too. I'm sure you can. So these 213 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.159 things do guide us. Even Kenneth Grant's work does guide 214 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:11.960 us to ritual and spiritual practices to help us mitigate 215 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:15.799 against our own corruption or sin or whatever you want 216 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:21.240 to call it. Great magic gives us lots of. 217 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:26.519 Tools, yeah, oh for sure, magical magical tools, magical weapons. 218 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.519 Did anybody else have anything that they wanted to ask? 219 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:37.440 Where you keep going or anything? All right, how do 220 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:43.440 you personally like hold that tension between metaphysical and psychological readings? 221 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:50.679 Well, shout out to philosophical minds in the chat. I'm 222 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:53.039 not sure what do you mean by a tension between 223 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:57.720 psychological and metaphysical because metaphysical I see as in the 224 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:01.879 philosophical senses, referring to the actual nature of reality, So 225 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:07.399 we don't really experience anything metaphysical. Ever, we just experience 226 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:13.480 our own, you know, interpreted understanding of reality through through 227 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:17.000 the perception field little David him Smith way of phrasing 228 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:20.320 that again, but through the phenomena we experience, and that 229 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:24.559 has very little as we know, to do with actual 230 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.960 base reality, which is metaphysics. 231 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.559 Well, I'll just say this, I think the next question 232 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:35.159 was really good, and I think but I think that 233 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.080 I agree with what you're saying, Freight. I think that 234 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:41.960 there's a tension between what is even the word psychology 235 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:45.200 even mean in like this context of like Cabbala and 236 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:48.240 like understanding the tree and understanding Kleipas like you and 237 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:51.360 I think would say consciousness. But I think Nick is 238 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:54.480 drawing from more of the popular understanding of like psychology, 239 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:57.240 as in like there is like we like I mentioned, 240 00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:59.679 like there's the edgy Goth version of the Kleepas that 241 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:02.799 are like you must be depressed, like there is there 242 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:06.080 are literally left time path texts on the Klipa that 243 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:09.679 say like it's a it's a path of depression, it's 244 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:12.480 a path of self sacrifice, like where you're like cutting 245 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:14.519 and burning yourself. I'm not trying to be like edge 246 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:16.840 Lord and saying this. I'm saying that they're they literally 247 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.720 will kind of put that in as part of the 248 00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:25.480 you know, hermeneutic to understand the dark side of the tree. 249 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:28.519 And I'm not saying that it's like totally wrong because 250 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:30.480 people have like a I'm not saying that that's right. 251 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:34.240 I'm saying that people run the range of emotions, so 252 00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:39.159 obviously those emotions can become kleepas, but even good emotions 253 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.039 can become kleepas. And I love that you brought up 254 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:44.759 the idea of perception because I think hesse that is 255 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:47.559 very Hessetic, right, Like that is we are looking at 256 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:51.120 the ocean and it's the reflection that we see off 257 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:53.919 of it, and we see who we really are, and 258 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:56.600 then we make a choice do we go to Binna 259 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:58.840 or do we to go back down to Hoade? Well, 260 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:04.039 that's a choice, right. I just think I think that 261 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:06.799 what Nick's really asking is like how do we resolve 262 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:11.679 this like mind body dialectical problem in understand how we 263 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:14.480 maybe even it's just a language issue, Maybe it's just 264 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:18.639 like how do we articulate it, like can should we divorce? Divorce? 265 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:23.759 Like magical experiences or separatic experiences, even if it's based 266 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:26.840 in our perception. Should we take that away from like 267 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:31.480 the psychological like transmutation or is it all part of 268 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.840 it or is it like distinguishable? I don't know. 269 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:37.960 Yeah, so sorry, story about that, Nick. Normally, I would 270 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:42.120 usually in these spaces interpret the word metaphysical in the 271 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.360 way that that you actually meant it. Because of the 272 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:49.879 nature of our conversation today in terms of theology and philosophy, 273 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:55.799 I just defaulted to the hard philosophical definition of the 274 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:58.519 term to be for clarity what I thought. But I 275 00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:00.919 feel I made a mistake there. I should have. Yeah, 276 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:03.480 you mentate in terms of spearmint metaphysical in terms of 277 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:08.599 spiritual consciousness, the spiritual non physical reality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 278 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:11.079 so that's a different question. Yeah, that's a that's that 279 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:12.160 is a different question. 280 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:16.359 Answered jin. I saw the context and sense the way 281 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:17.640 you're answering it anyway, But. 282 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.039 Yeah, no, but in terms of how does so how 283 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:23.759 does it let me think of it again, how does 284 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:28.480 how does this play out when we contrast the spiritual 285 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:36.400 metaphysical reality of these things versus the psychological. That's a 286 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:39.480 good question, you know, I'm not even sure that I 287 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:44.799 have a fully formed answer to that. I definitely obviously 288 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:45.759 there's the I. 289 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.079 Think there was actually a tough caveats. 290 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:51.400 That the psychological is. It's a great question, it's a 291 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:54.519 great yeah. I mean the usual caveats, like the spiritual 292 00:17:55.079 --> 00:18:00.519 metaphysical view of the human incorporates necessarily the psycho logical. 293 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:04.839 That's that's there. But yeah, how's it. I think metaphysically 294 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:06.799 as in the way you meant it, in the way 295 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:10.359 you said it. The danger is you do end up 296 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:15.079 creating these things into more than they should be. I 297 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:17.799 just think that is the problem. You end up creating 298 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:22.839 little little uh little coco diamon aise or little what's 299 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:24.920 the what's the word for a little spirit you create? 300 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:27.799 What's that word? I'm brain farting on it. You all 301 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:30.799 the homunculous. Yeah, as well, you're making a little homunculi 302 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:34.359 out of these klepot And it's like, again, if your 303 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:38.559 path is to to uh be a bedrodder and and 304 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:42.680 and be depressed so that you can gain true spiritual 305 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:48.519 enlightenment through the path of evil, Yeah, I know, I'm 306 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.799 I know, I'm sort of couching that, but that's okay. 307 00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:55.599 Uh No, that was good because I was leading into 308 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:56.000 something else. 309 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.720 If you're gonna do that, then I would recommend you 310 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.839 you go the solemonic route and deal with those them 311 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.000 as spirits and demons in any is as you would 312 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:09.000 with any other demon or spirit. I don't really work 313 00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:12.440 those systems of magic much, but if you were to 314 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:14.119 go do that, then do it, and do it in 315 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.480 the way that the grimoires recommend, invoking from the highest 316 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.400 and subjugating these these forces within your life so they 317 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:24.559 do not control you, so that you do not become 318 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:29.000 a plaything of forces you cannot control, which is what 319 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:34.039 you know, chaos does. It's what dark forces do. They 320 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:38.079 imbalance us. And the way to purify and transmuteklepode is 321 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:42.200 or the or there is through the the dcs would call, 322 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:45.880 you know, the red and white drops and through the heart. 323 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.680 And that's a beautiful thing because it makes you a 324 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:55.519 better person, a more full person, and certainly more prepared 325 00:19:55.599 --> 00:20:00.359 to enthrone your noose, your your holy diamond, on your 326 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:04.160 your higher soul and gain that higher consciousness so that 327 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:08.880 you can be initiated into that tunic of fire and 328 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:10.839 become like a star god after death. 329 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.039 Thank you. That kind of lead it up to, like 330 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.240 one other question I just wanted to ask you, do 331 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:22.720 you think if somebody was to maybe get into this 332 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:27.640 this practice of this stuff not really understanding it fully 333 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:35.599 or kind of maybe not being authentic with it, do 334 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:40.119 you think that could end up kind of maybe feeding 335 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:43.039 your ego and actually making things worse. 336 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:48.359 I think it almost always does. I mean I just 337 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:53.240 I just one foolish night, and you know, treated these 338 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.559 things in a slightly haphazard or as I saw it 339 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:59.519 at the time, boldly experimental way, and it almost killed me. So, 340 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.799 you know, that was my experience. Maybe others are more 341 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:11.880 able to navigate that kind of of experience. I doubt it. 342 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:19.039 I don't think that that is, you know, a healthy path. 343 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:23.240 I mean, it's the result of us not getting very 344 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:26.359 in depth training on the Klepoath in the Golden Dawn, 345 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:28.839 which led to me writing the paper I led and 346 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:32.279 led to my workshops being as popular as they were, 347 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:34.880 and why that's why the whole internet started talking about 348 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:38.240 me when I was such a young magician back in 349 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:40.960 the late nineties. It's why I was known before I 350 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:44.079 even knew I was known. And you know, people called 351 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:46.720 me many things on the Alt Magic forums and all 352 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:49.319 that stuff. None of them actually knew me cause I 353 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.079 didn't participate in the online forums. I was busy finishing 354 00:21:52.160 --> 00:22:00.240 high school at the time, So yeah. 355 00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:58.200 I do want to work. 356 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:02.480 My apologies just had like from my own experience, again, 357 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:07.720 I never really got specific with this stuff, but like 358 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:09.559 at one point in my life, there was a few 359 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:13.680 people that I knew were and the idea of the 360 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:19.319 clip out from them of how I looked at it 361 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.799 then due to their influence, and how I even see 362 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.000 it now is completely different. And I just remember that 363 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:27.559 the people that there was only a few people I 364 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.279 knew personally that were all of a sudden I can't 365 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:32.400 even remember the book. Some book came out and everybody 366 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.519 seemed to be like pretty much buying the same book 367 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:39.279 and getting it, and their lives weren't going too good, 368 00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:42.880 seemed to get shittier and shittier. So I thought it 369 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:45.039 was like a little weird. Like I'm just wondering if 370 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:46.960 that is like a side effect of like not actually 371 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.559 really fully knowing what you're getting into it. 372 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:53.720 Oh yeah, I mean even recently, I watched a fellow 373 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:58.279 magician and friend in Vancouver's life just completely spiral into 374 00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:01.759 utter self destruction. You know, any swar that working with 375 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:05.680 Darker Forces was part of his you know, Thulemic path, 376 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:08.880 and you know, next thing, you know, he's threatening everyone 377 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:12.160 and trying to blackmail people and extort them and you know, 378 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.160 just complete you know, mental breakdown. And I thought this 379 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:20.799 was one of my closest homies throughout the last five years. 380 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:25.319 And it's like, yeah, well you know you you play 381 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:33.920 with dark forces, and you know, shit happens, especially for 382 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:37.000 people I think who look down before they look up. 383 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:46.119 Yeah yeah, And to be completely honest, people don't have 384 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:50.359 to even be initiated, uh, to go that route. Like again, 385 00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:52.880 we can use all the mystical names and so on, 386 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:55.119 but people can just do shit and you can see 387 00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:58.200 that clearly, like they digging their their life down because 388 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:02.519 they're doing you know, well whatever lying or corrupting or 389 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:06.519 whatever whatever. And you see that it never pays out literally, 390 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:11.960 like the thing always goes downhill at some point. So again, 391 00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:14.720 we have. 392 00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:18.480 So many examples, right, like ea quetting all these guys, 393 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:26.559 like so many examples of people from Crowley onward just 394 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.839 destroying their lives. I mean Crowley, sure he had some 395 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:35.240 you know, there's good things about Kroley, but I think 396 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:37.519 he could have been a lot happier person if he 397 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.559 had believed in some of the tenets of her meticism 398 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.079 that he learned in the Golden Dawn, rather than throw 399 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:50.480 most of them out the window to explore darker realms 400 00:24:50.839 --> 00:24:54.440 and more more selfish realms. I think that was his 401 00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:59.680