Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What what's going to happen?
Speaker 2: What I to.
Speaker 3: Help it.
Speaker 4: To?
Speaker 5: The saturnine point of aridity. And the real test isn't
Speaker 5: whether you practice when it feels magical, it's whether you
Speaker 5: keep going when it feels dry. These are all quotes
Speaker 5: from the book, which some of which I'll keep in,
Speaker 5: some of which I will rewrite, rework and turn into
Speaker 5: new and brilliant paragraphs. So yeah, I essentially argue that
Speaker 5: devotion matters more than spiritual thrills. Probably won't be a
Speaker 5: shocker to anyone here. And another quote is I say
Speaker 5: the work becomes true. Work becomes true invoking into it
Speaker 5: the spirit only when the goal of pleasure is replaced
Speaker 5: by the petiss of devotion. So one of my main
Speaker 5: messages is that pleasure is not the measure of truth
Speaker 5: in spiritual work, of course, and that's just an example
Speaker 5: of my approach and the I think important differentiation between
Speaker 5: subjective and object realities in this particular interpretation of the
Speaker 5: Tree of Evil.
Speaker 3: Thank you man. Is there any questions before I went forward?
Speaker 3: So I wanted to kind of ask you some of
Speaker 3: this stuff. I think we kind of like asked this
Speaker 3: that is, I think we kind of answered it anyway,
Speaker 3: but it kind of makes sense with the question I
Speaker 3: have afterwards. Do you interpret clippothic forces as actual entities,
Speaker 3: archetypal structures, psychological realities, some combination of these, or how
Speaker 3: do you look at them?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I've answered that kind of but not explicitly,
Speaker 5: I suppose. I mean, again, the cop out, though it feels,
Speaker 5: does feel a bit of a cop out to say
Speaker 5: people can deal with them however they want, but it
Speaker 5: depends on what you're working with them for and how
Speaker 5: that determines how you're working with them, right, if you're
Speaker 5: if you're seeing them as things to be purified and transmuted,
Speaker 5: like David Heimsmith does, so that you can experience God
Speaker 5: more fully. Though let's put a big, you know, double
Speaker 5: quotes on the word experience there, especially if you know
Speaker 5: David Heinsmith's work at all. So it does it, you know,
Speaker 5: do I see are they they are archetypal in the
Speaker 5: sense that we can conceive of them as archetypes the
Speaker 5: real beings, in the sense that we do often as
Speaker 5: human beings, and in the in the in the field
Speaker 5: of phenomena experience them phenomenologically right, Like, they might not
Speaker 5: be metaphysically ontologically real, but we certainly have to deal
Speaker 5: with them in terms of ordinal phenomenology, and in the
Speaker 5: layers of our experience of reality, they become real. So again,
Speaker 5: I don't know if I would put them in the
Speaker 5: same category as I would dimonase which we see as
Speaker 5: real entities or spirits. I don't know if I would.
Speaker 5: You can certainly turn them into entities through many different
Speaker 5: magical means, or just building them up in your mind
Speaker 5: to the point at which you know you become possessed
Speaker 5: by that edity. If you focus on the clipo of
Speaker 5: death and destruction, that could be several of them, So
Speaker 5: take your pick. And of course there's tons more in
Speaker 5: the Book of Horns that we don't even know about
Speaker 5: in the non Hebrew speaking world yet because no one's
Speaker 5: translating it. That might change after this podcast, eh, some
Speaker 5: one might be like, what the fuck? How do we
Speaker 5: miss this? It's like, well, because you don't pay attention,
Speaker 5: So that's okay. I mean, doctors, I just talked about
Speaker 5: the Book of Horns, tons and no one's done anything
Speaker 5: about it. When I told him, I paid someone to translated,
Speaker 5: he just laughed. He was like, ah, I was like, fuck,
Speaker 5: you just drink your absence. The shut up. It's like
Speaker 5: it would be interesting for us to him, it wouldn't
Speaker 5: be of any interest because you know he's an atheist.
Speaker 5: So but it's just a fight. It would just be
Speaker 5: a wild, crazy demon text by a you know, by
Speaker 5: a martyred rabbi. So yeah, we we can. We can
Speaker 5: deal with these things as nties, But I don't think
Speaker 5: it's healthy too reify them as such. What benefit is
Speaker 5: there too that you know if you reify like so,
Speaker 5: Kenneth Grant's point of view is like, we experience the
Speaker 5: path demons and we connect the sphere demons by indulging
Speaker 5: in the path demons. What does that mean? That means
Speaker 5: living out those demonic forces. So if you reify a
Speaker 5: clipo of death and destruction, that means you're destroying things.
Speaker 5: That means you're killing things, and then you are connected
Speaker 5: with that clipo, you are possessed. Buy that clipo you
Speaker 5: want to work with thawmil great, you will divide yourself
Speaker 5: against yourself, which you know it happens whenever in psychology
Speaker 5: we have any experience of object identification at all, which
Speaker 5: is like Jen was saying earlier, why it's so nuts
Speaker 5: how many people are hyper focused on their identity these days,
Speaker 5: because what we know from psychology, one of the very
Speaker 5: few ideas that has not been overturned since Freud and
Speaker 5: Jung because most of their ideas about how the mind
Speaker 5: and sub conscious and shadow work, we know that's all
Speaker 5: nonsense now. But one of the main things psychologists seem
Speaker 5: to have continued to keep as true to this day
Speaker 5: is object identification. You identify with something, it fractures your
Speaker 5: psyche into that which you are, and that's which you
Speaker 5: identify with. And your identification can even be with a
Speaker 5: self identity, and that causes a fracture and leads to
Speaker 5: schizoid psychosis if you keep going with it. And so
Speaker 5: you know, users beware, or as I say on the
Speaker 5: cover of the book, warning demons. You know, like, however,
Speaker 5: you want to see that focusing on this stuff comes
Speaker 5: at risk, just like focusing on anything disgusting and sick
Speaker 5: comes at risk. And you'll know that if you've explored
Speaker 5: the Internet, it's darker corners for any amount of time.
Speaker 5: How do you sleep that night?
Speaker 3: Well, the next question I have I guess this wouldrobably
Speaker 3: also depend on I guess which way you're looking at
Speaker 3: it or using it? What role do names, correspondences, seals,
Speaker 3: and ritual forms play in structuring contact with these forces
Speaker 3: or things? How are you looking at it?
Speaker 5: Oh, I'm so glad you asked that question. I'm so
Speaker 5: glad you asked that question because that is the big one,
Speaker 5: that is, in many ways one of the big questions. Well,
Speaker 5: Kenneth Grant did a lot of that, right. The gamatria
Speaker 5: is the perfect example, like trying to understand the nature
Speaker 5: of the path demons in terms of their gamatria and
Speaker 5: guess what that was one of the things I did
Speaker 5: focus on from his taking his lead, because gematria is
Speaker 5: a useful tool. Anyone who thinks that it's some secret
Speaker 5: code to show how things really are is completely miss
Speaker 5: the point of it. It's a spiritual exercise, just like
Speaker 5: anything is that helps you understand the map you're working
Speaker 5: with better, but not necessarily the terrain. Maybe it will
Speaker 5: help you gain insights or phenomenal glimpses of how these
Speaker 5: things play out in your life or reality. But yeah,
Speaker 5: the gamatria is a great example of that. Looking at
Speaker 5: the names looking at the numbers, seeing what they connect with,
Speaker 5: and seeing if an inspiration comes from your noose, from
Speaker 5: your higher self. That gives you some insight into how
Speaker 5: this clipote works and how it can be better transmuted
Speaker 5: or dealt with when it manifests in your life, because
Speaker 5: a lot of these things do clipboat manifest physically in
Speaker 5: our lives through the bad things that we experience or
Speaker 5: or heaven forbid, do in the world world, and that
Speaker 5: is very real. Let's see, let's see if I can
Speaker 5: give an example. Yeah, keep going, I'll just see if
Speaker 5: I have a good example from my notes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to read something from the chat and
Speaker 4: I think it's funny. Actually I don't know exactly the
Speaker 4: context I try to understanding here, but anyways, I'm just
Speaker 4: gonna pull it up and I think it's funny the
Speaker 4: person said or wrote it. Again, No, they're not one
Speaker 4: hundred percent of context, but they wrote no risk with Jesus.
Speaker 4: And I was thinking, how, like again the concept that
Speaker 4: we were talking about right of the symbols being emptied,
Speaker 4: how that happens so often with zooteric things. So again
Speaker 4: the alter example things where you're gonna have the symbol
Speaker 4: that people. Everyone kind of has their own idea of
Speaker 4: the thing. So at the end of the day, it's
Speaker 4: not really like it's not really anything because everyone has
Speaker 4: their different idea. For example, Jesus is one of those things, right,
Speaker 4: and if you ask people to kind of speak about it,
Speaker 4: they will kind of gravitate towards some kind of thing
Speaker 4: or the same with like Buddha or whatever, like the again,
Speaker 4: the exoteric concepts or even sometimes again right, everyone who
Speaker 4: kind of have their own very different thing if they
Speaker 4: just superficiously study about it. So again don't know their
Speaker 4: context what they said. But there is indeed a lot
Speaker 4: of risk if you just want to get something packaged
Speaker 4: to you. You know, that's the actually the greatest risk,
Speaker 4: couthy because again you're just getting something pre made for you,
Speaker 4: and that comes with a lot of preconceptions. Right. So
Speaker 4: for example, if we are talking about Jesus, a lot
Speaker 4: of people will have the image of him suffering, you know,
Speaker 4: with the crown and in blood and whatever. And then
Speaker 4: and imagine you have that in your imagination all the time,
Speaker 4: what exactly is gonna you know, calls to you again,
Speaker 4: no shade in Jesus, you can use that simple tiffer
Speaker 4: at whoever you want. Just if you get the prepackaged version,
Speaker 4: exactly are you gonna work with that? You know, the
Speaker 4: always being in sacrifice, always being this and this one.
Speaker 4: So again, just thought it was very funny the comment
Speaker 4: there again, don't know the complex that didnt com what
Speaker 4: that came into my life matters.
Speaker 5: And you know, it's interesting because that's such a feature
Speaker 5: of modern Christian theology, so process theology at work, because
Speaker 5: that would only be viewable, visible, conceivable in a world
Speaker 5: in which we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Speaker 5: But early Christians had no belief in that, right, that's
Speaker 5: a modern idea quote unquote modern he goes back to Protestantism.
Speaker 5: But this idea that you have a direct personal relationship
Speaker 5: with Christ isn't found in original Christianity. So that really
Speaker 5: mitigates the risk of having oh I have my Jesus,
Speaker 5: you have your Jesus. We all have our own Jesuses.
Speaker 5: They didn't have that view originally in Christianity. It was
Speaker 5: all about the communal relationship with Christ. You find come
Speaker 5: to Christ through your community. And so it's quite a
Speaker 5: modern problem that one of fragmenting interpretations individually in ways
Speaker 5: that then don't connect us to anyone except to our
Speaker 5: own mystical experience. And what good is that for human
Speaker 5: life if we're all just you know, trapped in our
Speaker 5: own sollipsism. I have an example I found here in
Speaker 5: the text of my book, which I will elucidate, which
Speaker 5: is what to the previous point of yours? So sigils
Speaker 5: symbols gematria. How does all that come into play with
Speaker 5: the cleipbout? How is that useful? Well, here's a really
Speaker 5: simple example. So sloth is especially related as a vice
Speaker 5: to sagittarius through the geomantic symbol acquisitio. So here's geomancy
Speaker 5: as a tool within this context, and you find it
Speaker 5: within the path or tunnel of set excuse me of
Speaker 5: the sigil of that demon of Saturn tantifaxat and Saint
Speaker 5: John of the Cross describes sloth as an opposite of
Speaker 5: the quality to the quality of Saturn. So that is,
Speaker 5: the initiate will dislike most spiritual pursuits because they are
Speaker 5: void of sweetness and incompatible with sensual pleasure. But the
Speaker 5: sigil acquisitsio right there shows you how you could work
Speaker 5: with that. Well, you can make a sigil or a
Speaker 5: seal or a talisman, or any number of rituals using
Speaker 5: Acquisitsio and the sigils derived from Aquisitsio or even the
Speaker 5: archangel of Sagittarius to then mitigate your own struggles with
Speaker 5: sloth and sloth as it's defined in this context, not
Speaker 5: necessarily the pop cultural one, but maybe you can use
Speaker 5: it that way too. I'm sure you can. So these
Speaker 5: things do guide us. Even Kenneth Grant's work does guide
Speaker 5: us to ritual and spiritual practices to help us mitigate
Speaker 5: against our own corruption or sin or whatever you want
Speaker 5: to call it. Great magic gives us lots of.
Speaker 3: Tools, yeah, oh for sure, magical magical tools, magical weapons.
Speaker 3: Did anybody else have anything that they wanted to ask?
Speaker 3: Where you keep going or anything? All right, how do
Speaker 3: you personally like hold that tension between metaphysical and psychological readings?
Speaker 5: Well, shout out to philosophical minds in the chat. I'm
Speaker 5: not sure what do you mean by a tension between
Speaker 5: psychological and metaphysical because metaphysical I see as in the
Speaker 5: philosophical senses, referring to the actual nature of reality, So
Speaker 5: we don't really experience anything metaphysical. Ever, we just experience
Speaker 5: our own, you know, interpreted understanding of reality through through
Speaker 5: the perception field little David him Smith way of phrasing
Speaker 5: that again, but through the phenomena we experience, and that
Speaker 5: has very little as we know, to do with actual
Speaker 5: base reality, which is metaphysics.
Speaker 1: Well, I'll just say this, I think the next question
Speaker 1: was really good, and I think but I think that
Speaker 1: I agree with what you're saying, Freight. I think that
Speaker 1: there's a tension between what is even the word psychology
Speaker 1: even mean in like this context of like Cabbala and
Speaker 1: like understanding the tree and understanding Kleipas like you and
Speaker 1: I think would say consciousness. But I think Nick is
Speaker 1: drawing from more of the popular understanding of like psychology,
Speaker 1: as in like there is like we like I mentioned,
Speaker 1: like there's the edgy Goth version of the Kleepas that
Speaker 1: are like you must be depressed, like there is there
Speaker 1: are literally left time path texts on the Klipa that
Speaker 1: say like it's a it's a path of depression, it's
Speaker 1: a path of self sacrifice, like where you're like cutting
Speaker 1: and burning yourself. I'm not trying to be like edge
Speaker 1: Lord and saying this. I'm saying that they're they literally
Speaker 1: will kind of put that in as part of the
Speaker 1: you know, hermeneutic to understand the dark side of the tree.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that it's like totally wrong because
Speaker 1: people have like a I'm not saying that that's right.
Speaker 1: I'm saying that people run the range of emotions, so
Speaker 1: obviously those emotions can become kleepas, but even good emotions
Speaker 1: can become kleepas. And I love that you brought up
Speaker 1: the idea of perception because I think hesse that is
Speaker 1: very Hessetic, right, Like that is we are looking at
Speaker 1: the ocean and it's the reflection that we see off
Speaker 1: of it, and we see who we really are, and
Speaker 1: then we make a choice do we go to Binna
Speaker 1: or do we to go back down to Hoade? Well,
Speaker 1: that's a choice, right. I just think I think that
Speaker 1: what Nick's really asking is like how do we resolve
Speaker 1: this like mind body dialectical problem in understand how we
Speaker 1: maybe even it's just a language issue, Maybe it's just
Speaker 1: like how do we articulate it, like can should we divorce? Divorce?
Speaker 1: Like magical experiences or separatic experiences, even if it's based
Speaker 1: in our perception. Should we take that away from like
Speaker 1: the psychological like transmutation or is it all part of
Speaker 1: it or is it like distinguishable? I don't know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so sorry, story about that, Nick. Normally, I would
Speaker 5: usually in these spaces interpret the word metaphysical in the
Speaker 5: way that that you actually meant it. Because of the
Speaker 5: nature of our conversation today in terms of theology and philosophy,
Speaker 5: I just defaulted to the hard philosophical definition of the
Speaker 5: term to be for clarity what I thought. But I
Speaker 5: feel I made a mistake there. I should have. Yeah,
Speaker 5: you mentate in terms of spearmint metaphysical in terms of
Speaker 5: spiritual consciousness, the spiritual non physical reality. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: so that's a different question. Yeah, that's a that's that
Speaker 5: is a different question.
Speaker 3: Answered jin. I saw the context and sense the way
Speaker 3: you're answering it anyway, But.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, but in terms of how does so how
Speaker 5: does it let me think of it again, how does
Speaker 5: how does this play out when we contrast the spiritual
Speaker 5: metaphysical reality of these things versus the psychological. That's a
Speaker 5: good question, you know, I'm not even sure that I
Speaker 5: have a fully formed answer to that. I definitely obviously
Speaker 5: there's the I.
Speaker 3: Think there was actually a tough caveats.
Speaker 5: That the psychological is. It's a great question, it's a
Speaker 5: great yeah. I mean the usual caveats, like the spiritual
Speaker 5: metaphysical view of the human incorporates necessarily the psycho logical.
Speaker 5: That's that's there. But yeah, how's it. I think metaphysically
Speaker 5: as in the way you meant it, in the way
Speaker 5: you said it. The danger is you do end up
Speaker 5: creating these things into more than they should be. I
Speaker 5: just think that is the problem. You end up creating
Speaker 5: little little uh little coco diamon aise or little what's
Speaker 5: the what's the word for a little spirit you create?
Speaker 5: What's that word? I'm brain farting on it. You all
Speaker 5: the homunculous. Yeah, as well, you're making a little homunculi
Speaker 5: out of these klepot And it's like, again, if your
Speaker 5: path is to to uh be a bedrodder and and
Speaker 5: and be depressed so that you can gain true spiritual
Speaker 5: enlightenment through the path of evil, Yeah, I know, I'm
Speaker 5: I know, I'm sort of couching that, but that's okay.
Speaker 3: Uh No, that was good because I was leading into
Speaker 3: something else.
Speaker 5: If you're gonna do that, then I would recommend you
Speaker 5: you go the solemonic route and deal with those them
Speaker 5: as spirits and demons in any is as you would
Speaker 5: with any other demon or spirit. I don't really work
Speaker 5: those systems of magic much, but if you were to
Speaker 5: go do that, then do it, and do it in
Speaker 5: the way that the grimoires recommend, invoking from the highest
Speaker 5: and subjugating these these forces within your life so they
Speaker 5: do not control you, so that you do not become
Speaker 5: a plaything of forces you cannot control, which is what
Speaker 5: you know, chaos does. It's what dark forces do. They
Speaker 5: imbalance us. And the way to purify and transmuteklepode is
Speaker 5: or the or there is through the the dcs would call,
Speaker 5: you know, the red and white drops and through the heart.
Speaker 5: And that's a beautiful thing because it makes you a
Speaker 5: better person, a more full person, and certainly more prepared
Speaker 5: to enthrone your noose, your your holy diamond, on your
Speaker 5: your higher soul and gain that higher consciousness so that
Speaker 5: you can be initiated into that tunic of fire and
Speaker 5: become like a star god after death.
Speaker 3: Thank you. That kind of lead it up to, like
Speaker 3: one other question I just wanted to ask you, do
Speaker 3: you think if somebody was to maybe get into this
Speaker 3: this practice of this stuff not really understanding it fully
Speaker 3: or kind of maybe not being authentic with it, do
Speaker 3: you think that could end up kind of maybe feeding
Speaker 3: your ego and actually making things worse.
Speaker 5: I think it almost always does. I mean I just
Speaker 5: I just one foolish night, and you know, treated these
Speaker 5: things in a slightly haphazard or as I saw it
Speaker 5: at the time, boldly experimental way, and it almost killed me. So,
Speaker 5: you know, that was my experience. Maybe others are more
Speaker 5: able to navigate that kind of of experience. I doubt it.
Speaker 5: I don't think that that is, you know, a healthy path.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's the result of us not getting very
Speaker 5: in depth training on the Klepoath in the Golden Dawn,
Speaker 5: which led to me writing the paper I led and
Speaker 5: led to my workshops being as popular as they were,
Speaker 5: and why that's why the whole internet started talking about
Speaker 5: me when I was such a young magician back in
Speaker 5: the late nineties. It's why I was known before I
Speaker 5: even knew I was known. And you know, people called
Speaker 5: me many things on the Alt Magic forums and all
Speaker 5: that stuff. None of them actually knew me cause I
Speaker 5: didn't participate in the online forums. I was busy finishing
Speaker 5: high school at the time, So yeah.
Speaker 1: I do want to work.
Speaker 3: My apologies just had like from my own experience, again,
Speaker 3: I never really got specific with this stuff, but like
Speaker 3: at one point in my life, there was a few
Speaker 3: people that I knew were and the idea of the
Speaker 3: clip out from them of how I looked at it
Speaker 3: then due to their influence, and how I even see
Speaker 3: it now is completely different. And I just remember that
Speaker 3: the people that there was only a few people I
Speaker 3: knew personally that were all of a sudden I can't
Speaker 3: even remember the book. Some book came out and everybody
Speaker 3: seemed to be like pretty much buying the same book
Speaker 3: and getting it, and their lives weren't going too good,
Speaker 3: seemed to get shittier and shittier. So I thought it
Speaker 3: was like a little weird. Like I'm just wondering if
Speaker 3: that is like a side effect of like not actually
Speaker 3: really fully knowing what you're getting into it.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I mean even recently, I watched a fellow
Speaker 5: magician and friend in Vancouver's life just completely spiral into
Speaker 5: utter self destruction. You know, any swar that working with
Speaker 5: Darker Forces was part of his you know, Thulemic path,
Speaker 5: and you know, next thing, you know, he's threatening everyone
Speaker 5: and trying to blackmail people and extort them and you know,
Speaker 5: just complete you know, mental breakdown. And I thought this
Speaker 5: was one of my closest homies throughout the last five years.
Speaker 5: And it's like, yeah, well you know you you play
Speaker 5: with dark forces, and you know, shit happens, especially for
Speaker 5: people I think who look down before they look up.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And to be completely honest, people don't have
Speaker 4: to even be initiated, uh, to go that route. Like again,
Speaker 4: we can use all the mystical names and so on,
Speaker 4: but people can just do shit and you can see
Speaker 4: that clearly, like they digging their their life down because
Speaker 4: they're doing you know, well whatever lying or corrupting or
Speaker 4: whatever whatever. And you see that it never pays out literally,
Speaker 4: like the thing always goes downhill at some point. So again,
Speaker 4: we have.
Speaker 5: So many examples, right, like ea quetting all these guys,
Speaker 5: like so many examples of people from Crowley onward just
Speaker 5: destroying their lives. I mean Crowley, sure he had some
Speaker 5: you know, there's good things about Kroley, but I think
Speaker 5: he could have been a lot happier person if he
Speaker 5: had believed in some of the tenets of her meticism
Speaker 5: that he learned in the Golden Dawn, rather than throw
Speaker 5: most of them out the window to explore darker realms
Speaker 5: and more more selfish realms. I think that was his
Speaker 5: big mistake, and many people since him have followed his
Speaker 5: lead because he started his own religion and became a
Speaker 5: prophet of it and not and a lot of people
Speaker 5: don't handle that well. There's examples, great examples of people
Speaker 5: who did, like Lon Milo Duquette, Richard Kacinski. You know,
Speaker 5: there's other lovely people who are part of represent that
Speaker 5: tradition very well. But there's the other side of it.
Speaker 5: And that's why in like traditions like the Hermetic spirituality
Speaker 5: or as found in Rose Crucian Currents, the Golden Dawn
Speaker 5: and many other traditions, I mean, we just reject that
Speaker 5: stuff at the outset out of hand. We even take
Speaker 5: vows against working it. So there's a reason for that.
Speaker 1: I want to offer a defense of the Klipa's but
Speaker 1: it's not please do. It's not an adversarial position to
Speaker 1: what Freighter said. I just think, like well dcs would
Speaker 1: even say, like within the klip as there are there
Speaker 1: is the primordial space, empty space which can arise wisdom,
Speaker 1: which can arise you know, the sort of female the
Speaker 1: shakinas he would call it. I would call it the
Speaker 1: shok d but he can call David call it whatever
Speaker 1: he wants. But yeah, the female principle. Like we talked
Speaker 1: about this on a different episode, like I think Matt
Speaker 1: and Judith and obviously Nick was there and we talked
Speaker 1: about how you know, like in a more contrac way
Speaker 1: you would understand like the space, even in within the
Speaker 1: tunnel itself to still be able to contain the truth,
Speaker 1: like the truth, the primordial truth is still there. But
Speaker 1: it's a perceptual case. So I don't I don't disagree
Speaker 1: with people working the night Side Tree at all. I
Speaker 1: find Kenny G's work. Shoutout Solar, I find his work.
Speaker 1: He gets lost in the he gets lost in the tunnels.
Speaker 1: There's no other way to describe it. He he goes
Speaker 1: on to describe all the klipas like in in immense detail,
Speaker 1: but he's kind of getting lost from what they actually are.
Speaker 1: And what they actually are is there's they're supposed to
Speaker 1: be experiential knowledge. You're supposed to be sort of performing
Speaker 1: the act of bringing Hokmah and Dina together even down there.
Speaker 1: So if that's the klopathic version, then whatever the copaltic
Speaker 1: version of that is, and then you're creating death in
Speaker 1: that space because the way David sees it is the
Speaker 1: death doesn't exist on the tree. And I also agree
Speaker 1: with that. I think death is something that you synthesize
Speaker 1: in your own consciousness. So the so there is a use,
Speaker 1: but I do see a use in it. But I
Speaker 1: also see where people get stuck, just like people do
Speaker 1: get stuck on the suffer, and people do get stuck
Speaker 1: and they sink. Oh, angels, Angels are just inherently amazing.
Speaker 1: They're gonna help me. They're going to manifest like the Lottery.
Speaker 1: They're gonna you know, they're gonna it's very like, you know,
Speaker 1: no shade to John Michael Greer, but he he kind
Speaker 1: of went that route for like a good two decades,
Speaker 1: and he would be like all like it's all love
Speaker 1: and light, like it's all like, you can't be stuck
Speaker 1: on that stuff either. That becomes a kleipa if you
Speaker 1: grasp aden enough. In my opinion, So I just want
Speaker 1: to say that I do see a use in not
Speaker 1: only studying the klipa, but I think it is a
Speaker 1: I don't think you should do it first. I think
Speaker 1: you should just approach the tree, like Mattow says, like
Speaker 1: very flexibly, try and be as I would say, nondual,
Speaker 1: Try and be a forge nosis through the middle path.
Speaker 1: But the middle path does not mean centrism. It just
Speaker 1: means that you're non reactive to the polarities, so you
Speaker 1: can reconcile them inside yourself rather than you know, you
Speaker 1: don't have to a lot a lot of people love
Speaker 1: to do the archetypal play, right like they love to
Speaker 1: go full on. So if like being left hand path
Speaker 1: means like you wear a leather jacket and you wear like,
Speaker 1: you know, black jeans and you listen to like death metal,
Speaker 1: that's what the they'll take on the archetype in order
Speaker 1: to embody those characteristics. But I personally think that you
Speaker 1: should just be like who are you? That's probably the
Speaker 1: fundamental question, like what is your malcouth? That's what I
Speaker 1: would ask myself, and then I would traverse the tree accordingly,
Speaker 1: rather than trying to remake myself every single time I
Speaker 1: encounter a khlipa or a cephra. I would try and
Speaker 1: build the path as I go. But that is a
Speaker 1: very different approach, and I know that some people don't
Speaker 1: love that way because it's a little more hopema. It's
Speaker 1: a little more like what people would describe as droy
Speaker 1: on or like crazy wisdom is how that word is
Speaker 1: often translated, although that doesn't really what it means. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that like even David would use that word to describe,
Speaker 1: like how I approach a tree. It's very droy on.
Speaker 1: It's very like wisdom. It's not necessarily rooted so much textually.
Speaker 1: So I do think there's a use in studying it.
Speaker 1: I just think that people are doing it as it's
Speaker 1: not a remediation of the tree. It's not like you
Speaker 1: don't go to the dark side because you were raised evangelic,
Speaker 1: Like you don't. You don't do it to get back
Speaker 1: at your daddy issues. It doesn't. It actually is gonna
Speaker 1: make those so much worse approaching the light side tree.
Speaker 1: That can make some of like what your perception is like,
Speaker 1: not anyone here, but I'm saying like it can make
Speaker 1: you very egoic. It can make you very feel like
Speaker 1: you are virtuous like you are very taad, very like,
Speaker 1: Oh I am righteous, like a crusader. That's a very like,
Speaker 1: that's a good archetype sort of like it's like a
Speaker 1: little overly geveratic because you're sort of reaching for this.
Speaker 1: You're you're positioning yourself in a tent in a place
Speaker 1: of tension because you're severe and you're kind of restrictive.
Speaker 1: So I do think that both trees present kleep us.
Speaker 1: I don't think that the the night Side Tree is
Speaker 1: inherently worse or like evil. I just think that it's
Speaker 1: all about how you approach it. And I think if
Speaker 1: you approach it more flexibly conceptually and you're willing to
Speaker 1: let it go, that's what it will serve you, because
Speaker 1: there will be ideas that you encounter that you will
Speaker 1: agree with and that you will be like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: how will this further understand How will this further my
Speaker 1: understanding of the tree, rather than how will this allow
Speaker 1: me to do magic? Like I'm again I'm a speculat
Speaker 1: of cabalist. I'm not. I don't use it for magic,
Speaker 1: So that's just my pace.
Speaker 5: You just you just contemplated in the exact way David
Speaker 5: Heims Smith thinks people should, so he might call you
Speaker 5: very cabalistic if we go with his definition. You've said
Speaker 5: so many great things. I don't know if I recall
Speaker 5: everything you said, but every response I had as you
Speaker 5: went along. But there's two main ones that really stand out.
Speaker 5: First of all, I generally really think your own point
Speaker 5: there with that, And for a couple of reasons. Firstly,
Speaker 5: let me say that that's exactly what you were saying
Speaker 5: at the start. Why I think the hermineutic found in
Speaker 5: Saint John of the Cross's spiritual exercises and interpretation is
Speaker 5: so effective with our understanding of the clippo as a
Speaker 5: foil as a method of theorgy because he is not
Speaker 5: ignorant of the fact that what is often seen as
Speaker 5: good can easily become clipathic. That's invaluable, and my workshop
Speaker 5: will go into the details of that. But if anyone
Speaker 5: wants to prepare for my workshop or understand my second
Speaker 5: edition of the book coming out, go get David Himes
Speaker 5: Smith's Darky a Black Ether book. There's still a few
Speaker 5: copies available, I think, before it's sold out forever. But
Speaker 5: even better, take his course on transmuting the clip both.
Speaker 5: It costs a couple bucks, for sure, But it's and
Speaker 5: it's it's four or five hours, I think, but it's
Speaker 5: it's brilliant. It's brilliant, and it complements very nicely other
Speaker 5: methods of working. It's not like, oh, this is a
Speaker 5: whole new way of understanding it that rejects whatever you're
Speaker 5: currently doing. Not at all. It'll it'll help many people
Speaker 5: with their way of working. Not everyone, but it'll it'll
Speaker 5: it'll augment nicely to a lot of people's practices. And
Speaker 5: that's the great thing about David Heimsmith is he he
Speaker 5: has developed a system of spiritual alchemical kabbola that does
Speaker 5: fit in very well and complementary to most magicians work,
Speaker 5: in my opinion. And that leads to the point of
Speaker 5: the cleapout themselves. Like you were saying, yes, of course
Speaker 5: they are. They are there as part of the field
Speaker 5: of phenomena that we experience, and they are not some
Speaker 5: rejection of reality or some evil opponent to the to
Speaker 5: the One good. They are a part of reality. They
Speaker 5: are cacodaimonse if you like. Right there, everything is slightly
Speaker 5: dirty outside of the Mona, the One, the Father, the Good,
Speaker 5: or whatever you want to see it as. But that's
Speaker 5: just the words that the you know, Hermetic pagans in
Speaker 5: Alexandria in the third century, we saw it as and
Speaker 5: so from their point of view, they would see these
Speaker 5: clipout if you were just if they were to hear
Speaker 5: what we were saying, they would say, oh, those are cocodaimonos.
Speaker 5: Though they're spirits that may exist only in our mind
Speaker 5: or our psychology, or in the earth, in the air,
Speaker 5: and they're dirtier than most because they are part of
Speaker 5: these processes that are often categorized as evil by human beings. However,
Speaker 5: you know, the thing the same as the cacodaimon is
Speaker 5: in the Inochian magic system, which are certain names done
Speaker 5: in reverse with a few other little things tacked on
Speaker 5: to make them function. And they yeah, and they are
Speaker 5: things that generate disease and cancers and illness and evil
Speaker 5: things in the world. But something has to be the
Speaker 5: agents of those forces, and that's what they are. And
Speaker 5: we understand God better because of them. So it's they're
Speaker 5: necessary and they're not something to be seen or as
Speaker 5: to be rejected entirely, for sure, I agree with you entirely.
Speaker 4: I also wanted to bring an example, maybe real quick,
Speaker 4: of how doing something good can become a khlifah. Right, Like, imagine,
Speaker 4: imagine again, you have kids and you want the best
Speaker 4: for them, obviously, right you You imagine, Okay, I want
Speaker 4: the best round kids. So you work a lot, you
Speaker 4: get a lot of money, and then you think, okay,
Speaker 4: every time my kid, my kid needs money, I'll just
Speaker 4: give them money. Well, if you do this long enough,
Speaker 4: eventually this love of yours that you want them to
Speaker 4: succeed can actually nullify them because they know always you
Speaker 4: know that, and mom can hook me up and I
Speaker 4: can do whatever the I want. So then you kind
Speaker 4: of are like creating this kleifa on them that they again,
Speaker 4: you're basically nullifying them. You're removing their active energy. That's
Speaker 4: even so again this is coming out of love, but
Speaker 4: you're breaking something. So it's very and it's then it's
Speaker 4: gonna be hard, right Like again, you're you want to
Speaker 4: make it work. But at the same time, maybe there's
Speaker 4: you know, a lot of crazy stuff. So that's why
Speaker 4: it's very interesting to study and practice all of this.
Speaker 5: I'm so glad you said that. It actually gives me
Speaker 5: a chance to make a really good give a really
Speaker 5: good example of that. So like you were saying that,
Speaker 5: you know, the spoiling kids can lead to them being
Speaker 5: non functional. I mean in pop culture they say that's
Speaker 5: the problem with gen z. They were helicopter parented or
Speaker 5: or overly protected, and therefore they lost basic social skills
Speaker 5: and socialization and don't know how to talk to people.
Speaker 5: Like that's what we hear in pop culture. And I
Speaker 5: don't know if that's that's not universally true, but it
Speaker 5: seems to be an issue. So good things can become bad.
Speaker 5: Good things can be like the money that a wealth
Speaker 5: the parent might constantly feed into their kid prevents them
Speaker 5: from learning how to find value in work and labor
Speaker 5: and personal accomplishment. If you rob a human being of
Speaker 5: the sense of personal accomplishment, well you're actually changing their
Speaker 5: brain chemistry into something incredibly dysfunctional that will eradicate all
Speaker 5: kinds of opportunities for contentment in their lives. And one
Speaker 5: of the quotes in my book is really key, one
Speaker 5: of the key quotes that addresses that right, which is holiness,
Speaker 5: is not defined by how little we have sinned, but
Speaker 5: rather how much sin we have transformed and purified into virtue.
Speaker 5: So that spoiling parent creating a klipa out of something
Speaker 5: intended to be good becomes a challenge that that person
Speaker 5: then has to work through and transmute back into something good.
Speaker 5: How do you transmute being given endless opportunity and protections
Speaker 5: by a parent, wealthier not and so that you never
Speaker 5: have to actually struggle, Well, then you have to struggle
Speaker 5: with the opportunities that you have to struggle with them,
Speaker 5: wealth and money or riches or protection or favoritism you
Speaker 5: get as a nepo baby or whatever right that becomes
Speaker 5: your kleipaw to be purified so that you can get
Speaker 5: back to what life is actually all about, which is
Speaker 5: you know, well, I don't know what life's actually all about,
Speaker 5: but I have a few ideas Thanksgiving to get back
Speaker 5: to thanksgiving that is the hermetic view of what life's
Speaker 5: all about. So you know, they can rob you of
Speaker 5: your ability to give thanks for existing if they just
Speaker 5: keep giving you everything you want and always pay rent
Speaker 5: and you never have to have to struggle to take
Speaker 5: care of yourself, which is the model by which we
Speaker 5: learn to take care of and be a show loving
Speaker 5: kindness and generosity to others.
Speaker 4: I said, exactly, And then can you flipped the thing
Speaker 4: where now they kind of expected there and expected more
Speaker 4: so eventually though, it's like it becomes kind of a
Speaker 4: glutony on let's say that the kids or whatever the
Speaker 4: person which is receiving, so again it becomes the klifa
Speaker 4: of Hessid, right, because now it's the opposite. They want
Speaker 4: everything all the time. So it's very interesting. But when
Speaker 4: you see it in real life being played.
Speaker 5: I have an example from my life there was I
Speaker 5: went to private school. I went to Walder School thirteen
Speaker 5: years so I was. I was there without paying really
Speaker 5: they the school allowed a few kids each year that
Speaker 5: whose parents couldn't afford it, and I was one of them.
Speaker 5: So I grew up surrounded by really spoiled millionaire kids,
Speaker 5: hippie millionaires for the most part, but millionaires nonetheless, like
Speaker 5: in the most rich area of Canada, West Vancouver, North Vancouver,
Speaker 5: mainly west. But yeah, there was this one kid named Kyler.
Speaker 5: I won't say his last name, but his god dad
Speaker 5: was rich as god, and he had everything he could
Speaker 5: ever want. And every time I noticed as we got older,
Speaker 5: and he was younger than me, so I didn't hang
Speaker 5: out with him a lot when I was younger. But
Speaker 5: you know, as you age up, you start to hang
Speaker 5: out with ages level out into early adulthood. And he
Speaker 5: would like many of us, would you know, because you
Speaker 5: don't always have money when you were a kid, or
Speaker 5: a teenager or a young adult even you know, sometimes
Speaker 5: we would pay for each other. He would do this
Speaker 5: thing where he'd offer to pay, and then next time
Speaker 5: I saw you, he would hand you a letter with
Speaker 5: an invoice and terms for repayment. This kid had no
Speaker 5: need of anything in life, but his dad had taught
Speaker 5: them that the way that works is by basically being
Speaker 5: careful and watching your money. But that played out in
Speaker 5: him in terms of him being very miserly and not
Speaker 5: having the ability to do something nice for someone else
Speaker 5: for purely that reason, because for him, money was this entity,
Speaker 5: this clipa this shell that existed and had been ratified
Speaker 5: as penny pinching. That's how you get rich. So he
Speaker 5: lost the ability to be capable of generosity. Yeah, I
Speaker 5: remember he had to be an invoice once when he
Speaker 5: paid for that the you know, the first Star Wars
Speaker 5: movie when it came out, So we just graduated high school,
Speaker 5: I'd say at that point. I think it was two
Speaker 5: thousand when that came out, and I just laughed at
Speaker 5: his face. I was like, hey, dude, don't offer to
Speaker 5: pay for someone and then invoice them, like unless you're
Speaker 5: loaning them the money, like and in the adult like,
Speaker 5: let's if you loan someone money versus pay for something,
Speaker 5: that's two different things. We're all adults here, we all
Speaker 5: know what that looks like. We all understand how that
Speaker 5: plays out in social niceties. You're right, they're definitely different things.
Speaker 5: You don't you don't offer to buy someone dinner and
Speaker 5: then send them a fucking.
Speaker 2: Jeezuz.
Speaker 5: It was hilarious though, and I think he had never
Speaker 5: seen a reaction in his life like mine. I just
Speaker 5: laughed in his face and threw it away in front
Speaker 5: of him, and he was he was stunned. He couldn't
Speaker 5: believe what he was experiencing.
Speaker 1: Well that this is quite common among Hassids, like among
Speaker 1: like a Jewish coubleists, is that they will utilize contractual
Speaker 1: obligation a hava. Some people would call it like the
Speaker 1: tefolium chord, like the actual physical chord of the teflin
Speaker 1: that will use it to bind sepharatic ideas to these
Speaker 1: kind of contractual obligations. Because a hava can be also
Speaker 1: understood as a contractual love, obligatory love. So this is
Speaker 1: a very common kleipa that I've encountered since I've become
Speaker 1: a better couplist and like since I started studying like
Speaker 1: more seriously, is like this exact thing. And I'm not
Speaker 1: saying it's like just exclusive to them. I don't think
Speaker 1: it is. It's a very common klipa of hesseid, and
Speaker 1: it's how hesseid can go very wrong, just like being
Speaker 1: overly generous is also a klipa of hesseid, and that
Speaker 1: can also go very wrong. It's like, I think it
Speaker 1: goes back to the point about like not being an extremity,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's it's amazing to be an extremely generous person.
Speaker 1: But also like I think for me, maybe this will
Speaker 1: sound really solesistic, and people can, you know, correct me
Speaker 1: if they think it is. But I think that you
Speaker 1: have to worry about your own malcuth number one, And
Speaker 1: it's not to the exclusion of other people or they're
Speaker 1: like their lives, especially if you're entangled karmically or socially
Speaker 1: or you know, romantically whatever. But it's also like making
Speaker 1: sure that that is tight. Number one. And then you
Speaker 1: can see about Hesseid. So for me, that's how I
Speaker 1: approach a tree. And perhaps this is what makes me
Speaker 1: slightly more left hand path or maybe even more leftown path.
Speaker 1: But I but I'm okay with that. I can reconcile
Speaker 1: that to me that you have to like take care
Speaker 1: of yourself. This is something that I've only learned in
Speaker 1: my thirties, that you have to be like your number
Speaker 1: one arbiter of your own. You have to be an
Speaker 1: agent of your of yourself, of your own quote unquote
Speaker 1: destiny or karma or fate or whatever it is. You
Speaker 1: cannot It's not an over reliance on others in terms
Speaker 1: of like even the support structures that you may have
Speaker 1: in terms in terms of tension or crisis, those can
Speaker 1: also falter. So you have to make sure that your
Speaker 1: so that your foundation is stable enough that you can
Speaker 1: even weather very adverse conditions. So I'm still working on it.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying this from like a you know,
Speaker 1: Clydesdale or anything like that. I'm I'm definitely not. I'm
Speaker 1: just saying this is like my real experience with it
Speaker 1: is that you have to be really careful with has
Speaker 1: said because it's so powerful like that capacity for giving,
Speaker 1: the capacity for generosity, the capacity for love, even romantic love,
Speaker 1: like it can go really wrong. That's why I always like,
Speaker 1: we always talk about it. For Gray Lodge, it's like
Speaker 1: so important that like hessied gevra geburrah goadullah Hessed dean connection,
Speaker 1: it has to be in synthesis. It has to be
Speaker 1: in synthesis, otherwise you're going to go way too far
Speaker 1: off into a klipa in my opinion. That's just my opinion,
Speaker 1: but I agree, but I agree with what Forever's saying.
Speaker 5: Yeah, psychologists actually have a really good understanding. I think
Speaker 5: of exactly what you're talking about though, or maybe what
Speaker 5: you're talking about from another aspect to in terms of
Speaker 5: an overabundance of hesse, of loving, kindness, of generosity. So,
Speaker 5: and we see this in friendships, in relationships, especially romantic relationships,
Speaker 5: where one person is going too quickly and the other
Speaker 5: person's not a not there yet right, It usually is
Speaker 5: disrupt destructive to the relationship romantically, especially because you know
Speaker 5: the other person's just not there yet. So you got
Speaker 5: to use din and judgment right to balance Hessed with
Speaker 5: your own cognizance so that you match the person, and
Speaker 5: psychologists have explained this now really well of why over
Speaker 5: giving to someone, for example, is an abuse of them,
Speaker 5: because you're pushing and forcing upon them the the the
Speaker 5: urge to elevate the relationship beyond where they're at, and
Speaker 5: that becomes an imposition that you're forcing upon them, whether
Speaker 5: romantically or just in friendship or even familiar relationships. Right,
Speaker 5: And I've struggled with that. You know, when you want
Speaker 5: to be generous, sometimes you want to be generous, or
Speaker 5: when others are generous or too generous, it can make
Speaker 5: you feel uncomfortable. And I think that's a really good
Speaker 5: psychological example of what you're talking about. Actually, this is
Speaker 5: something well known at least, so that's cool.
Speaker 3: That's really interesting that that whole breakdown you just said
Speaker 3: right there, cheers, thank you.
Speaker 6: Maybe still thinking, I wonder if I have an example
Speaker 6: from the Seven Deadly Sins on that one.
Speaker 5: Maybe not, but let me give you a little because
Speaker 5: you know, I prepared a little snippet from each of
Speaker 5: the so when we look at here's just another snippet
Speaker 5: from the workshop I'll be giving at Inokiacon in Austin
Speaker 5: at an Arcane Research Society Spring Workshop. Not at a
Speaker 5: Nokia con. But if you sign up for both one,
Speaker 5: you get all of it. So avarice is not just
Speaker 5: material greed. It's for example, recording of teachings or secrets, systems, tools,
Speaker 5: and status. And the sin is found in those who
Speaker 5: are never really satisfied with the teachings they are giving.
Speaker 5: They're always seeking more, right, They're not able to balance
Speaker 5: what they have with what they want. And so this
Speaker 5: turns the true secret to a greedy treasure hunter collecting
Speaker 5: spells and Grimor's crystals, cards and all of you know,
Speaker 5: great ranks for example, and that that's what leads to
Speaker 5: this sort of spiritual consumerism that imbalances us with that
Speaker 5: particular clip boat on the astral triangle, right, we're talking
Speaker 5: NETSC and hode that balance there. So there's a there's
Speaker 5: one sort of manifestation of that. Another one would be gluttony,
Speaker 5: which is the spiritual consumption for self pleasure. And I
Speaker 5: say this synergy is seen when the magician performs rituals
Speaker 5: repeatedly for self pleasure, and their only pleasure being that
Speaker 5: what they themselves are inclined to do. Right, Oh, I
Speaker 5: want to I like this, so I do this. We
Speaker 5: often will think that that's a good thing. But I
Speaker 5: suggest you ask yourself a tough and possibly nasty sort
Speaker 5: of question, which is, are you doing this ritual for
Speaker 5: transformation or are you doing the spiritual practice to change
Speaker 5: yourself and to grow or because you just like the
Speaker 5: feeling it gives you. Right, I think that's a perspective
Speaker 5: on it we don't usually see as we get further
Speaker 5: down the path.
Speaker 1: Bliss consciousness can be very No, it's a good point
Speaker 1: because bliss consciousness can be addictive in the in specific context.
Speaker 1: You see this a lot on Buddhist Twitter. Not to
Speaker 1: be like that person who references Twitter, but as a
Speaker 1: Buddhist who is on like has a big account that's
Speaker 1: on Twitter. I see this quite often. You'll have people
Speaker 1: talking about like Jona States or some of the other
Speaker 1: non tontric ways to get to certain kinds of consciousness
Speaker 1: that we would describe in contra, but they use like
Speaker 1: more I guess it's more pared down secular methodology to
Speaker 1: get there there, and you see them sort of like
Speaker 1: have realizations, but then it's because they don't. It's not
Speaker 1: con creed, it's not rooted anywhere, and so this is
Speaker 1: maybe an interesting point is like they don't even have
Speaker 1: a conceptual framework, they don't even have a collopathic framework
Speaker 1: to contain what they're actually doing. So then after the experience,
Speaker 1: they just kind of get lost in it, and then
Speaker 1: they become addicted to that feeling because that is they
Speaker 1: are hitting maybe you could call it death or maybe
Speaker 1: g nosis or whatever you want to call it. Sure,
Speaker 1: but they're also hitting that like pleasurable bliss state, which
Speaker 1: is fine and in a Tontic way. We would know
Speaker 1: how to deal with that because that is a big
Speaker 1: part of contra, not sex. I'm just saying bliss consciousness.
Speaker 1: But you know, I understand, like I get it, like
Speaker 1: people do get addicted to things. I was even thinking
Speaker 1: glutt me when you were initially saying it freight or
Speaker 1: it's like I do think though hesse provides its own remedy,
Speaker 1: which is perhaps why it's often considered the most powerful sephra,
Speaker 1: which is love has to exist in perception. Both people
Speaker 1: must recognize that they like, whether we're talking familial, romantic friendship,
Speaker 1: anything like, both people must be in mutual agreement. That
Speaker 1: is the true ahava, in my opinion, is that it's
Speaker 1: you're in like a mutual relational agreement that you're both
Speaker 1: friends or both in love or whatever it is, or
Speaker 1: that you're like you have an equilimbrium, an equipos as,
Speaker 1: like even in a familiar relationship, like you have to
Speaker 1: have some kind of balance. So yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: that's what Hesseid actually can give. But it's a much
Speaker 1: deeper meaning than most people treat Hesset.
Speaker 5: Yeah, since you mentioned that, I love that you mentioned
Speaker 5: that because it ties right into my my looking at
Speaker 5: the sin of hesse the said deadly sin of Hesseid,
Speaker 5: which I treat as envy, and so I present that
Speaker 5: as a fracturing of the self, not just jealousy of others.
Speaker 5: And so the shells of Hesset or the shell of
Speaker 5: hesse the klipa of Hesseid, use envy to break us
Speaker 5: in pieces within ourselves, and therefore to be envious, for example,
Speaker 5: of a fellow initiate who progresses apparently faster than we do,
Speaker 5: is just to be diluted, because we're all one, of course,
Speaker 5: and united ultimately in reality and in God. And so
Speaker 5: you know, envy then isn't just wanting what someone else has,
Speaker 5: it's actually losing contact with your own path.
Speaker 1: I love that you said that because it actually matches
Speaker 1: the Buddhist framework that I've given for has said on
Speaker 1: the show many times, is that I've alwa said, I
Speaker 1: liken it to green Tara, blue green Tara from Buddhism
Speaker 1: because her remedy her the mental cliche. So the mental
Speaker 1: poison that she remedies is actually envy, and elementally it
Speaker 1: fits and as well because the soundscrit sort of color
Speaker 1: theory and color magic it describes. Even though Hesse's usually
Speaker 1: described that the outer density as blue, which is I
Speaker 1: agree with it is fine, but in like Buddhist color magic,
Speaker 1: blue is also related, always related to green, so there's
Speaker 1: always like a blue green sort of turquoise element. And
Speaker 1: if you look at like what the Ramak was saying,
Speaker 1: like Rabbi Cordovero, he was talking about the turquoise quality
Speaker 1: of Hessaid, the turquoise quality of God, which is really
Speaker 1: like water or like ice, which is actually really clear.
Speaker 1: And so it's really interesting because there's the exact parallel
Speaker 1: in Buddhism that like the sort of diamond thunder clarity, rigpa,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, primordial ground consciousness that
Speaker 1: is also turquoise. So I don't know, which is also clear,
Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to say. But turquoise is considered
Speaker 1: blue green. So there's a really interesting sort of like
Speaker 1: elemental association with HESD being like the ocean, but there's
Speaker 1: also like the air, there's water vapor, which you could
Speaker 1: say is hope ma. It's sort of like this interstitial
Speaker 1: the supernal waters. I've heard it called many times. I've
Speaker 1: called it out myself, and like a sort of a
Speaker 1: tension in the waters below and the waters above that
Speaker 1: creates like a stable field of lightning. Like that's a
Speaker 1: very has said way to sort of conceptualize the suffra.
Speaker 1: So I agree with you. I think that's really interesting
Speaker 1: that you tied it to envy because that's exactly how
Speaker 1: I would treat it as well.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, yeah, I love how how in sync we
Speaker 5: are on so much here today. It's great. It's great, Jen,
Speaker 5: You're You're awesome man. I'd love to come back, of
Speaker 5: course and do a clip ooat part two with you guys.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, in a couple months before before the spring
Speaker 5: workshop in Austin, which I hope everyone goes and signs
Speaker 5: up for at at Arcane Research Society dot com, Forward
Speaker 5: slash twenty twenty six, because it's going to be a
Speaker 5: good workshop. You can attend online or in person. And yeah,
Speaker 5: Jason Louver will be presenting and Craig Williams, both guys
Speaker 5: who know a lot about the cliphoath as well. And yeah,
Speaker 5: I'll hopefully be a very enlightening wereifying a full day
Speaker 5: of workshops for everyone who attends.
Speaker 3: Nice, nice, Yeah, I look forward to that. I want
Speaker 3: to try to make that actually.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, you and I have to talk a lot.
Speaker 5: We've got a lot to talk about, so I'll instagram
Speaker 5: you and and hopefully we can actually have a phone
Speaker 5: call and talk about because you know, we wanted we're
Speaker 5: doing all these events and next year we're in Prague
Speaker 5: and doing events in Europe, so like you know, we
Speaker 5: need to start getting pro some pro footage to bang
Speaker 5: out some documentaries. Along the way.
Speaker 3: That was actually a place we want to go, Broil
Speaker 3: come with us. Yeah, I have an excuse, I have.
Speaker 5: I have a whole proposal for you. So maybe after
Speaker 5: this we can maybe I can later tonight if you're free,
Speaker 5: I can give you a ring.
Speaker 3: All right? Yeah, yeah, yeah sure. Did anybody else have
Speaker 3: any other questions? Because it is it's already after two hours.
Speaker 3: I just realized, so maybe we could wrap it up
Speaker 3: and do a part two in the future. Like you said,
Speaker 3: I did have If any anybody doesn't have a quote,
Speaker 3: any questions, I do have one more that I thought
Speaker 3: maybe we could try to end it with. I guess
Speaker 3: kind of like after everything, like, what is it really
Speaker 3: to you that you're actually working on or getting out
Speaker 3: of this?
Speaker 5: What is this my spiritual life?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: The word that keeps coming to me, seemingly from above
Speaker 5: is fullness. And maybe that isn't the perfect word or
Speaker 5: a full description, but it sure does help me survive
Speaker 5: the brutality of this world. And as anyone who knows
Speaker 5: me knows, I've had a brutal recent few years well
Speaker 5: from covid On, especially with the loss of my sister
Speaker 5: or the other like beyond brutal, and if you know
Speaker 5: the circumstances that led up to that, it's unimaginable. Obviously
Speaker 5: there's always people who go through worse things, of course,
Speaker 5: but yeah, I think I would have died a long
Speaker 5: time ago without my spiritual path to, if not always
Speaker 5: keep me balanced, help me find my way back when
Speaker 5: I get lost. And then there's the fact that on
Speaker 5: the Hermetic path you you proceed so that you can
Speaker 5: also help guide others. That's an inherent part of Hermetica
Speaker 5: teachings and hermetic spirituality is that you are there to
Speaker 5: experience awakening so that you can then help guide others
Speaker 5: to that same fullness, which is the initiation into your
Speaker 5: higher consciousness, your news, your which gives you access to everything,
Speaker 5: ever where, and all of it, the wholeness of existence,
Speaker 5: according again to the ancient Egyptian and Greco Egyptian Hermetica
Speaker 5: and those teachings. And that's what has lined up since
Speaker 5: I was young with my natural experience of the world
Speaker 5: as a meditating yoga kid, just inherently reaching out into
Speaker 5: nature and existence and saying what the fuck and listening
Speaker 5: to what came back to me from existence, and nothing
Speaker 5: has described that journey as clearly as the hermetic writings have,
Speaker 5: and then the various traditions that grew out of it
Speaker 5: and developed tools and techniques and initiation systems to guide
Speaker 5: us along the way.
Speaker 3: That was great, Thank you man.
Speaker 5: Another way of saying that is it helps me love
Speaker 5: others and myself better. And that's what better way to
Speaker 5: love God, right than others and ourselves, because to not
Speaker 5: do that is to profane what we have been given
Speaker 5: by God or nature or reality, however you want to
Speaker 5: conceptualize it. Again, I tend to not think theistically. But
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 1: Asterisk as DCS says, there's no problem with God like
Speaker 1: I have no problem discussing it as God either or
Speaker 1: as the tree like I don't. I've said this many times,
Speaker 1: like on recording, no problem that there's no problem to
Speaker 1: like say God, or like I would say like Shiva
Speaker 1: or like Shiva consciousness or whatever framework you want to use.
Speaker 1: I have no problem. I think it's I think it's fine.
Speaker 1: I think it depends on your audience. So I wasn't
Speaker 1: trying to be overly corrected before Freder I just to
Speaker 1: make sure that you know, like, if I said something,
Speaker 1: it wasn't going to be in contradiction to like the
Speaker 1: framework that you laid out.
Speaker 5: Yeah, of course I get it. Yeah. My whole main
Speaker 5: academic book, my master's thesis, is all is right up
Speaker 5: your alley. It's all. It's a it's a apaphatic, non metaphysical,
Speaker 5: anti auto theological approach to the ethics of understanding God.
Speaker 5: And you can get that book online. It's called the
Speaker 5: Ethics of Understanding God. But God's got a line through
Speaker 5: it nice, which in philosophy is called speaking under erasure,
Speaker 5: I believe it or not. So you draw a line
Speaker 5: through a word if you want to eradicate the metaphysical
Speaker 5: underpinnings of it, to open it up to new possible meetings.
Speaker 5: And that's Jacques Derrida.
Speaker 1: It's very breaking the klipa because words can.
Speaker 5: Be exactly see you see where I'm going with that? Brother, Yeah, baby.
Speaker 1: Like that.
Speaker 5: Love it. This has been such a treat. Thank you
Speaker 5: so much for having me on today. I'm happy to
Speaker 5: stick around a bit longer, but I just really appreciate
Speaker 5: it because I'm excited to return to this topic and
Speaker 5: to bring, you know, forty five years of experience to
Speaker 5: it that I did not have when I first wrote
Speaker 5: about such a major theme. And I also want to
Speaker 5: add I don't think, I definitely know I wouldn't have
Speaker 5: gotten into the trouble I got into when I messed
Speaker 5: around with the cleepout in the grade of practice. Had
Speaker 5: I been an adept, I would have had tools and
Speaker 5: initiations that allowed me to not have any problems with that.
Speaker 5: So again, from experience, I will say it can also
Speaker 5: be a cautionary tale of just yet, don't look, don't
Speaker 5: leap before you look. It listened to the wisdom of others,
Speaker 5: because you don't know what you don't know, and sometimes
Speaker 5: you just need to get to a better like if
Speaker 5: someone had told me, it's not about hiding dark, secret
Speaker 5: knowledge and power from you. It's just about making sure
Speaker 5: you are stable and grounded and full enough as a
Speaker 5: human being to be able to confront those things. I
Speaker 5: probably would have not fucked around and found out. But
Speaker 5: I did. I did find out. I wrote a book
Speaker 5: on it, and now I'm rewriting that book with almost
Speaker 5: three decades a new experience and seeing it play out
Speaker 5: even more. Oh my god. But again I'll save that
Speaker 5: for the book and the workshop.
Speaker 3: There you go. No, thank you, man. I love getting
Speaker 3: you on the show. So it's always a pleasure for us.
Speaker 5: It's an honor. It's an honor.
Speaker 3: Thanks.
Speaker 1: Thanks.
Speaker 3: Before we wrap it up, let everybody real quick, just
Speaker 3: remind everybody where they could find this stuff. Judith alone,
Speaker 3: what is going on?
Speaker 7: Thank you again for having me. It's great to see you,
Speaker 7: Jin and Matt, and always a pleasure for to RC
Speaker 7: and everyone else. You could find me on YouTube and
Speaker 7: on x as the Loon, and you could find my
Speaker 7: podcast on spreaker.
Speaker 3: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. Appreciate it.
Speaker 3: And Jin then Ninja, what is that?
Speaker 1: What is up? Cardinal? Thank you so much for having
Speaker 1: me on. I know it's been at it's been a minute,
Speaker 1: but it's you know, I've been. I was on sporadically
Speaker 1: last month, so you know it was it wasn't like
Speaker 1: a long hiatus, and I just needed a little, you know,
Speaker 1: a quick minute to get myself together as a kid say,
Speaker 1: and you know, sometimes it's good to deal a little,
Speaker 1: you know, withdrawn and just like think about like how
Speaker 1: you want to proceed, like pathwork. So that's all maybe
Speaker 1: just taking that moment to do that. So but yeah,
Speaker 1: Threshold Saints, we're rocking and rolling on the feed. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad that Judith set up her feed. I saw
Speaker 1: that she made that post, so everybody should check that out.
Speaker 1: Of course, check out Matt's work on his website, all
Speaker 1: his like enter Camu and of course our stuff on
Speaker 1: the Gray Lodge. I would say thank you to all
Speaker 1: the sub subscribers. It's increased my shows reached by like
Speaker 1: a thousand listeners per episode, so wow, Threshold Saints dotstock
Speaker 1: dot com. Uh, that's the best place, but of course
Speaker 1: Apple and Spotify. Ike Baker's episode, which is called Metacognition,
Speaker 1: will be out, yeah, probably Saturday. I'll probably finish it
Speaker 1: on Saturday. It's edited, but I just I have to
Speaker 1: put like my little you know, remix on it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody can check that out. Of course, there's like the
Speaker 1: three part episodes with Soschkey and then the new episode
Speaker 1: with b d Those were just released in the last
Speaker 1: four days, so there's plenty and there's plenty more coming
Speaker 1: and Nick Nick's going to be mister ninety three, so
Speaker 1: you know it's coming up really soon. So yeah, everybody
Speaker 1: can check that out. And of course you can listen
Speaker 1: to me and DCS hash it out with my like
Speaker 1: non Dual Kabala on episode ninety one, Code of the
Speaker 1: Lightning Flash, so people are interested in that. Thank you guys,
Speaker 1: appreciate everybody. Judith Matt afraid O r C and of course.
Speaker 3: Night Oh thank you. I was really happy you made
Speaker 3: this topic. I know we've been talking about it for
Speaker 3: probably like a year and a half. So finally made
Speaker 3: it happen. Matt More, what's going on, Bud, Thank you
Speaker 3: very much for making it as well.
Speaker 4: Thank you, very happy to be here, very happy to
Speaker 4: be in this conversation. Thanks Frauder, Thanks Judith Jin and
Speaker 4: mister ninety three as left when didnt says that somebody anyways,
Speaker 4: you can always find me as at Medmore nineteen. That's
Speaker 4: gonna be on YouTube, act TikTok, Instagram, maybe some other place.
Speaker 4: And like she said, there's the project enter gamu dot
Speaker 4: com where again always a lot of stuff going on
Speaker 4: there for now behind an invite code, so if you'll join,
Speaker 4: just them me and I'll hook you up. And there's
Speaker 4: also the Kabbala Library, so that's a A A B
Speaker 4: A L A H you can use. If you use Claude,
Speaker 4: for example, as your AI, you can ask it to
Speaker 4: use this library and you can do like any astro
Speaker 4: calculation or numerology or matria or whatever. A lot of
Speaker 4: colpulations are also correspondses, so if you want to see
Speaker 4: obviously I mean that I'm putting the corresponses that I
Speaker 4: want to put there, but the thing is open sources well,
Speaker 4: so if you.
Speaker 5: Want to put more, feel free.
Speaker 4: But yeah, you can see corresponses to the spheres, the
Speaker 4: paths to from musical notes to western A strategy signs
Speaker 4: and whatever you can do all sorts of crazy things.
Speaker 4: They're trying to always add more features. Anyways, your curre
Speaker 4: is just you know, I don't kill up on that
Speaker 4: as well.
Speaker 3: Thanks again everyone, No, thank you Man and Freda. I'll
Speaker 3: see please again. Let everybody know where they can find
Speaker 3: all of your stuff before it gets, you know, taken down.
Speaker 3: Shadow Man.
Speaker 5: Hermetic podcast dot com. Check out my Hermetic Mystery School,
Speaker 5: join my free cyber guild, join my YouTube, Patreon or website,
Speaker 5: but most importantly go to Arcane research i dot com,
Speaker 5: Forward Slash twenty twenty six or in Nokiacon dot com
Speaker 5: takes you to the same page and check out the
Speaker 5: events we're doing this year. And before I go, I'd
Speaker 5: love to actually know where all you are in the world,
Speaker 5: because I don't think you're all in America, are you No?
Speaker 3: No, I'm in North.
Speaker 5: Carolina, North Carolina in ike Ike Country.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, about six hours away from.
Speaker 5: Did you see the did you see my April Fools video?
Speaker 3: No? No, no, no.
Speaker 5: Oh I I I put out a video call It's
Speaker 5: just short video called simple Mage for April Fools and uh.
Speaker 5: It's uh. It starts out with the It's a song
Speaker 5: that starts out with the lion, with the with the
Speaker 5: phrase Ike Baker. Ike Baker taught me when I was
Speaker 5: you know, blow it's I rewrote the words to simple
Speaker 5: Man to be simple Mage about Ike Baker, and I
Speaker 5: play it on guitar. Yeah, verses I need. We'll write
Speaker 5: the rest of the verses and perform it at an
Speaker 5: Nokia con with Icon drums. But yeah, check out two
Speaker 5: verses of simple Mage. Be a simple kind of mage,
Speaker 5: be balanced without rage.
Speaker 3: Oh God, I gotta check this out. Nice.
Speaker 5: I didn't know where are you, Matt?
Speaker 3: So sorry. I didn't know you played the guitar.
Speaker 5: I was a musician for almost a full time professional
Speaker 5: musician for almost twenty years. Yeah, up until psoriasis destroyed
Speaker 5: my hands. I'm now on the Lion diet and it
Speaker 5: is starting to slowly recover by just eating ruminant meat
Speaker 5: and nothing else. Yeah. I play a dozen instruments. I
Speaker 5: have a new seven inch vinyl coming out this summer
Speaker 5: with two new songs, The Ballad of Bridget and the
Speaker 5: Ballad of Lou which are spell songs that I wrote
Speaker 5: in ritual and recorded with a couple one partner, my buddy.
Speaker 5: I did all the instruments on them, bazooki, guitar, flutes, whistles,
Speaker 5: bagpipes and some other things. And then my buddy did
Speaker 5: keys and he just wanted Juno for playing keys. Uh.
Speaker 5: His name is Justin Hagberg and his main band he
Speaker 5: tours with his Three Inches of Blood. So we're doing
Speaker 5: a whole album of songs based on the Tua Ja
Speaker 5: Donna on the Tuatha Day Donna of the Irish Gods.
Speaker 3: Very interesting, super nice.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was, I was. I was a folk star,
Speaker 5: folk rock and roller for a very long time and
Speaker 5: and uh always wanted to get back to teaching and magic.
Speaker 5: But then I guess I didn't do it soon enough
Speaker 5: in nature and the my physical body forced me to
Speaker 5: by robbing me of the use of my hands.
Speaker 2: Mm hm.
Speaker 3: That's rough. Mhm h Matt, I don't know if.
Speaker 4: Ye.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So, I mean I'm kind of a booemium right now.
Speaker 4: So I'm right now, I'm in Brazil, but I'm gonna
Speaker 4: be in all fun next month, then back well again,
Speaker 4: then probably somewhere else and whatever. Like, just.
Speaker 5: Are you Brazilian originally or were you born you see? Wow?
Speaker 5: Very cool, very cool. Yeah, I'd love to get to
Speaker 5: Brazil and my friends always send me pictures. Of course,
Speaker 5: there's also a Jewish professor there who owes me some money.
Speaker 5: So if you know any affordable.
Speaker 4: Bounty, I'm very curious about that.
Speaker 5: You know, one thing I will for the reason I
Speaker 5: was sure he wouldn't rip me off was because life
Speaker 5: is so cheap in those countries, Like, why would you
Speaker 5: rip someone off when you live in a country where
Speaker 5: your life is worth fifty bucks? You know what I mean.
Speaker 5: I don't want to spell it out because we're on YouTube,
Speaker 5: but that's what your life's working worth in a lot
Speaker 5: of countries. Fifty bucks is what it costs, maybe one
Speaker 5: hundred if they use a more significant tool. Shall we
Speaker 5: say again, I don't want to use certain words on
Speaker 5: this platform. But like I was, like, you're not going
Speaker 5: to screw me over because it would take like, you
Speaker 5: know anyway. I'm not that kind of person, of course,
Speaker 5: And so he's lucky. People take advantages off advantage of
Speaker 5: us right hand path people because they know we aren't
Speaker 5: gonna do harm to others.
Speaker 3: But yeah, Yeah, they'll come back to them. Yeah. Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: was there anything else you want to do? Oh? Is
Speaker 3: there anything else you wanted to promote or anything? Oh? Wait?
Speaker 3: Was he? That's right? You also asked where everybody.
Speaker 5: Was from Gin? Yeah, Jin, Are you in China or
Speaker 5: Japan or someplace like that.
Speaker 1: I'm Canadian?
Speaker 5: Oh right, that's I knew that. I knew that we
Speaker 5: went over there.
Speaker 1: I was actually funny when you were talking about it,
Speaker 1: because I was a West Fan kid and I always
Speaker 1: wanted to actually live in North Fan because like because
Speaker 1: you can live in the forest amongst the trees.
Speaker 5: And I grew up in Lynne Valley.
Speaker 1: But you know, I also have lived in Asia, and
Speaker 1: I've also lived in the US and also Toronto, so
Speaker 1: I've I've kind of.
Speaker 5: That's crazy.
Speaker 1: I've lived all over my like post COVID life. I
Speaker 1: was just like, I'm gonna, you know, live my quiet
Speaker 1: well we'll call it like a gentry gentry larp, like
Speaker 1: where I pretend to be like a gentleman farmer. So
Speaker 1: that's basically what I do now, because I not what
Speaker 1: I do, but it's like part of like what I
Speaker 1: sort of manifested for myself. We'll call it postcover.
Speaker 5: It's incredible, incredible. So you're from the same town as
Speaker 5: me basically, well, West Van is where my mom grew up.
Speaker 5: There on Marine Drive. They have a big place, so
Speaker 5: you know, you know what that means. And uh, yeah,
Speaker 5: I grew up in North Inland Valley, you know, right
Speaker 5: near Frederi Achad's grave is where I grew up and
Speaker 5: doing ritual work at his grave is.
Speaker 1: You talked about this a little.
Speaker 5: When when did you leave Vancouver? Are you there? Are
Speaker 5: you here now?
Speaker 1: No, my sister still lives in Vancouver and my grandparents
Speaker 1: too crazy.
Speaker 5: You have to hit me up next time you're in town.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I honestly I go. So I just
Speaker 1: don't tell anyone. I just will. I'll go to Vancouver
Speaker 1: for three or four days and I'll like come back
Speaker 1: and just be like.
Speaker 5: We'll tell me your love.
Speaker 1: But sure, I'll uh we'll try and make it happen
Speaker 1: the next time I'm there. And yeah, no, I mean,
Speaker 1: I you know, I did like a whole like we
Speaker 1: did with the Gray Lodge. So Matt and like the
Speaker 1: other guy that we shouted out, Solar and obviously Joshua
Speaker 1: who's also part of the Gray Lodge we did a
Speaker 1: whole like eleven part series called a on of the Daughter.
Speaker 1: I didn't know Frederichrod's work, Like, I really didn't. I
Speaker 1: was kind of like a bit of our r tard
Speaker 1: on it. But yeah, I mean it's been a big
Speaker 1: it's been like sort of my whole project. Like if
Speaker 1: I quit podcasting tomorrow, I'll be like okay about it,
Speaker 1: because I kind of we did that. We we kind
Speaker 1: of like brought back the a of the Daughter working
Speaker 1: in like a chaos magic kind of left hand path.
Speaker 1: But we yeah, yeah, we kind of did it like
Speaker 1: rock and roll style on the internet.
Speaker 3: So rock and roll.
Speaker 5: That's awesome. And where do you live today?
Speaker 1: I live on the country.
Speaker 5: Oh you're still in BC.
Speaker 1: No, I don't live in BC.
Speaker 5: Oh on the East coast? Yeah, okay, well that might
Speaker 5: be where I'm heading with the cost of rent the
Speaker 5: home season now, I'm I have my eye on a
Speaker 5: few places, so I'll I'll let you know what I'm thinking.
Speaker 5: And it's cool.
Speaker 1: That I've ever dropped on the show. Yeah, yeah, respect myself.
Speaker 5: So you're a mysterious man, a man of mystery. I
Speaker 5: love it. I love it.
Speaker 3: It's a ninja. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Well so like I grew up in the nineties training
Speaker 5: in bujin Kan in West Mahan at the foot of
Speaker 5: Grouse Mountain in on at the you know, in the
Speaker 5: playgrounds of schools there. That's what we did our training,
Speaker 5: just outside on the cement, in the grass and on
Speaker 5: the hills sides and all of that. So that's what
Speaker 5: I was. I was doing ninja training while you were
Speaker 5: probably there growing up as an injury yourself, at least
Speaker 5: in spirit. I'm not sure what your martial arts background is, but.
Speaker 4: Well I.
Speaker 1: Told this that my dad, like he's ethnic Chinese obviously,
Speaker 1: but from the Indonesia. So yeah, we grew up. We
Speaker 1: grew up fighting like learning sea lot and uh also,
Speaker 1: my dad knows Windschin but it's like street style kind
Speaker 1: of wind hun like very like the kids would like
Speaker 1: mimic other people or mimic films, but it is kind
Speaker 1: of real too. So yeah, my dad's really tough, like
Speaker 1: a he's like a tough he's like a you know,
Speaker 1: like if you've ever seen the Raid, like that's my dad.
Speaker 1: But just like in so.
Speaker 5: Very cool.
Speaker 1: My dad's like a tough guy. So he made sure
Speaker 1: that my sister and I could fight and all that stuff.
Speaker 5: That's so ninjas. We probably know people in common from
Speaker 5: the North shore Man.
Speaker 1: Yeah maybe, I mean mostly were from Hong Kong, so
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know. I don't know how cool you
Speaker 1: are with those people.
Speaker 5: I was dating a Chinese Hong Kong born fiddler for
Speaker 5: a lot of those years that you were probably around,
Speaker 5: and she was from there as well. So yeah, I
Speaker 5: mean that's the Vancouver way, right.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 5: Man's wild, fantastic, awesome, it's bugged up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, you.
Speaker 5: Guys just get cooler and cooler.
Speaker 3: Yeah, see, that's what happens. That's that's what we keep
Speaker 3: on having your own too. Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: Man cheers.
Speaker 3: That was really that was really Uh, that was a lot.
Speaker 5: A lot my pleasure. I came prepared.
Speaker 3: No, you definitely did. He definitely did well. After I
Speaker 3: realized how much work you put into it. When you
Speaker 3: told me last time, I was like, oh fuck, definitely
Speaker 3: got to get you on, you know. So yeah, me
Speaker 3: and Jenna talked about trying to do the topic and
Speaker 3: I was just like, it's kind of a heavy thing
Speaker 3: to talk on. And once you had mentioned something, I
Speaker 3: was like, well fuck it, I'll just have you on,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 5: I think there's a choice. This has done a very
Speaker 5: good job. I think the collaboration was a very effective
Speaker 5: way of dealing with this, especially with Jin's points, but
Speaker 5: with everyone here teasing out the ideas so that people
Speaker 5: could listening, so everyone in the audience could really get
Speaker 5: a sense of broad perspectives that they can give them
Speaker 5: more avenues and inroads to the topic without feeling, you know,
Speaker 5: sort of gang rushed into popular avenues of approach and
Speaker 5: methodologies and often be sensationalized and dangerous if you really
Speaker 5: take them the wrong way.
Speaker 3: Agree, totally agree, and thank you very much. That's what
Speaker 3: we're trying to do here, I think, so all right,
Speaker 3: thank you very much. Again, was anything that you wanted
Speaker 3: to promote your YouTube and stuff? Again? Is there anything
Speaker 3: that you left out?
Speaker 5: Fred Orc on YouTube? Come subscribe, you know and like
Speaker 5: my if you can't support by joining becoming a member.
Speaker 5: The new algorithm on YouTube disproportionately favors likes, So if
Speaker 5: you like your favorite creators videos or just go through
Speaker 5: a bunch of their videws and like them has a
Speaker 5: massively disproportionate effect for us on YouTube these days, you
Speaker 5: literally change someone's life by just liking their videos. It's crazy,
Speaker 5: So go like and subscribe if you want, but definitely
Speaker 5: do the liking because you really can change the game
Speaker 5: for someone.
Speaker 3: That is very true. Like, subscribe comments if you want. Definitely,
Speaker 3: all that stuff actually helps, I think with the algorithm. Yeah,
Speaker 3: all right, well again, we'll definitely get you back on
Speaker 3: for a part too. I'm sure there's plenty. I actually
Speaker 3: there was a lot of questions I didn't even ask,
Speaker 3: so I mean, yeah, we could totally have another one.
Speaker 3: And thank you all again for coming on. It was
Speaker 3: a little bit longer than I expected, but I think
Speaker 3: it was awesome. It went better than I could even
Speaker 3: have ever imagined. And thank you everybody in the chat.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of people here looked like from the
Speaker 3: beginning to the end. That's what's tough. That's awesome. That's
Speaker 3: definitely putting in some work. I appreciate it. That's where
Speaker 3: we go live and until the next one, everybody be
Speaker 3: well later.