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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Gods of You podcast. I am your host,

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Trevor kind of kind of stoked about this episode today,

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if I may use that term stoked. We're going to

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you know, I wanted to get into the second or

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third part of that Thomas Campbell interview, but I thought

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it might be good to kind of try to balance

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it out a little bit. We're trying to run a

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we're trying to run a credible operation around here, so

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I think it's good to sort of present both sides.

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So I wanted to share our old friend Sabine Hassenfelder.

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Now you say your name hassen Fielder, Yeah, and she

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has a video called you probably Misunderstood the Double Slid Experiment.

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In this is true. This is true for all of

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us because the experiment itself is quite quite strange, and

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I often will use sort of little heuristics that aren't

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quite right, and so I think this would be a

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good opportunity to sort of reset or understanding now in

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the grand scheme. I don't think that this like, I

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don't know if you want to call it a rebuttal

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video on the double Slit experiment interpretation really changes anything

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about the way we talk about it about the way

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I wrote about it. But it is good to sort

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of every once in a while reset because you can

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you can sort of drift off pretty far from the

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original experiment or experiments. I would say, like the most

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extreme if if you're into it, if you want to

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check it out, version of the interpretation of the double

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slit experiment might be something like bio centrism by Robert Lanza.

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He's a regenerative biologist, highly cited scientist. He wrote it

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with the Physicist and it's a trilogy. He actually wrote

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a fiction book too, which I bought, but I haven't

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been able to get into anyway. This is sort of

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the most it's almost I think now what we would

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call idealism, the idea that consciousness generates everything. You know,

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the matter comes from mind, not the other way around.

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I like this idea. I'm open to it. I'm sort

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of I have ideas that are sort of adjacent to that.

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But I do think that's a little distinct from something

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like what Thomas Campbell is going to say today, where

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he really just sort of treats this reality like a

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video game. Now, the problem with using that metaphor is

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people take it a little too literally, and you'll see

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Sabine do that today. So, without further ado, let's jump in.

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This is a ten minute video, and depending on how

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I'm feeling in ten minutes or twenty minutes, with my interruptions,

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we'll get into the next Thomas Campbell segment.

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Speaker 2: The double slit experiment is the probably most famous experiment

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ever and also the most misunderstood one. In this video,

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i'll tell you why it confuses even physicists, what the

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doubleslet experiment has to do with Einstein's spooky action, what

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Elon Musk got wrong about it, and why is a

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benis permanently grumpy. The typical illustration of the double slit

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experiment looks something like this if particles.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I think basically everyone has some idea of

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what this experiment looks like. My favorite, my favorite visual

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explanation of the experiment is that meme. It's like a

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puppet or something where in one picture he's looking one

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way and the other picture he's looking the other way.

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Do you know what I'm talking about? Anyway, when he's

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looking at the interference screen. Sorry, that's not the right

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that's not the right term. The screen where the photons

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or the electrons will eventually impact after they go through

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the double slit. When he's looking at it, he sees

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two vertical bars, and these bars are composed of tiny

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little dots, and each dot represents an impact from a

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photon or an electron or whatever. And so this image

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essentially mirrors what the double slit looks like. You can

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think of the double slit almost like a stencil in

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this case, like if you imagine spray painting through the

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double slit very light, like misting it from far away,

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you would see like millions of little dots of paint

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in the shape of two bars that look just like

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the double slit, right, And this is basically the experimental setup.

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You have a photon source or an electron source. You

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can think of that as a can of spray paint.

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Then you have the double slit like a stencil, let's

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say six feet away, you know, we're just making stuff up.

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And then six feet after that you have film where

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you could think of this as like a canvas. If

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we're taking the paint analogy further, and you spray the

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photons through the stencil and you see what you see now,

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Really the difference is the spray paint gun in this

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metaphor could shoot one particle of paint at a time

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in the form of a single photon or a single electron,

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And so if you do this over hours or days,

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you see the result anyway, So I'm gonna just back

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this up a little bit and try to walk through

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what she should be grumpy.

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Speaker 2: The typical illustration of the double slit ex permit looks

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something like this. If particles did not have quantum properties,

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they'd behave like little balls and just form two stripes

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on the screen. But if they do have quantum properties,

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they form an interference paton which builds up from single pump.

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Speaker 1: I already don't like this explanation. I mean, who am

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I as a being, you know, as a physicists, But

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I don't like saying like, if they don't have quantum properties,

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they look like particles, or if they do have quantum

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part properties they look like this. It's like, well, no,

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I mean, I think what we're saying is if they're particles,

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they'll look like two bars. And if it's actually more,

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if these if these particles really behave like waves in

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the way they transverse space and time, then we would

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expect to see an interference pattern, you know, because that's

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what happens when a wave moves through two slits. One

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wavefront gets turned into two as it moves through the

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two slits. And anytime you have two wavefronts next to

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each other, like if you drop two pebbles in a pond,

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you get two new wavefronts, and where the ripples strike

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one another, you get interference. You get some areas where

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the waves some like two peaks, so you get a

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really big peak, and then you have some areas where

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two troughs you know some and then you get to

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really deep trough and then you have areas where a

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crest and a trough hit and then you get nothing.

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They cancel each other out. So this would leave us

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with like five bars on the screen rather than two.

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So I don't calling it non quantum, and quantum to

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meat just adds to the confusion.

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Speaker 2: But let's continue what course, Okay, buts of what all

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this shows is that particles have wave like properties. Particles

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aren't little points. They spread out like waves, so they

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can go through both slits at the same time. And

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that's why the parts of the wave coming from each

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single slit can overlap.

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Speaker 1: I think I think this is maybe a little reductionistic,

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even though even though she's kind of doing the like

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hyper skeptical explanation and then she sort of walks it

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back a little bit. But I mean, saying, so, what

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particles behave like waves is not really a so what

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I mean, because it does change the way we think

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of what a particle is like. I think most of

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us think of a particle like a little speck of dust, right,

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a little paintball, a little bullet, but shrunken down to

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some tiny little scale. So to then say, well, like, yeah,

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of course they behave like waves. Of course a bullet

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can pass through two distinct slits in a steel plate simultaneously. Well,

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then it's like, well, no, I mean, that's not duh.

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That's not a duh.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: If you're telling me that these little, discrete individual particles

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with mass can behave like a wave so much so

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that they can pass through, they can be in multiple

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places at once, this is not really a so what

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I mean. Just to defend the just to defend the

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honor of people who are impressed by this experiment a little.

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Speaker 2: Bit, even for a single particle that's what creates the pattern.

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The only thing that's it is that some people think

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elementary particles should behave like little balls. Well, the explanation goes.

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The weird part is that if you observe which of

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the slits the particle went through, then the particles stop

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behaving this way. They formed just two stripes on the screen.

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That is partly wrong and partly right. The wrong part

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is that the Okay.

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Speaker 1: So here we're going to be faced with the truth

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that physicists don't contend with very much. And I'm not

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sure why, but I say that as someone who completely

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ignored this in my book too on purpose. You know,

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I was aware of this, So I mean, even Finemen

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ignores this. Everybody ignores us. So what we're about to learn,

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you know, the claim is like, hey, these particles sort

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of behave like particles when you're when you're looking, when

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you're measuring them, when you're measuring which slid they went through.

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But when you aren't, they behave.

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Speaker 3: Like a wave.

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Speaker 1: They pass through bow slits at once. Now that is true.

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Sort of the thing is is that the particles they

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never really lose their wave like property in no scenario

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in this experiment, do they ever truly behave like a

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bullet would, where it is absolutely a discrete ball of

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mass that travels, you know, in a straight line from

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its emitter until it makes contact with the stetsul. That

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never actually really happens.

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Speaker 3: That is just a.

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Speaker 1: Way of simply explaining what happens, because in reality, what

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happens is when you aren't looking, this particle seems to

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go through bowslots at once. When you try to prove that,

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because that's a little surprising, right, like, why would this

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particle actually said, you know, most people assume that a

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particle wouldn't have a wave like property. So when you

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try to confirm that by putting a deta hector in

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front of the slits, now all of a sudden, the

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particle just goes through one slit. So that is true.

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I mean, the classical understanding of the experiment that she

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just laid out is correct. That's the partly right part.

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The partly wrong part is it still behaves like a wave.

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You still have an interference pattern. You just have what's

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called a single slit interference pattern. So at this point

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we're now going beyond like the traditional popular understanding of

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the experiment. We're moving into a deeper understanding of the experiment. However,

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the interesting aspect, the finding the conclusion is still the same.

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Why does it behave differently? Once we have which way information,

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that's what's unusual, and even Sabine is going to lay

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out like a lot of the criticisms of this, A

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lot of the things like amateur people and and even

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physicists will point out, is like demystifying the experiment. There

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are actually good rejoinders to that. So I will try to.

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Speaker 2: Stop the ren particles allegedly stop behaving like waves or

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form two stripes on the screen. This just never happens.

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If you observe which slit the particle goes through, say

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the right one, then the particles still behave like a wave.

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It's just that it's now a wave that goes through

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only one slit. It'll then form a diffraction pattern on

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the screen, which is also an interference effect. And likewise,

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for the right slid, if you observe the particles, they

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will not give you two stripes on the screen. Instead,

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you'll get an overlap of the two diffraction patterns. What's

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correct is that if you know which slit the particle

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went through, you do not get an interference from both slits.

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You get a sum of left slid and right slit.

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So what happens in the double slit experiment is that

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if you take the result of only the right slit

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and add it to the result of only the left slid,

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you do not get the same as having both slits

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outen at once the mast.

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Speaker 1: Okay, does this make sense? Why we just tell the

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story the simpler way? And this is not just me,

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I mean this is how everyone tells the story, right,

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because the conclusion is still sort of the same. When

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you try to determine which slid it goes through, it

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stops going through both. When I say it, I mean

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whatever the particle is that we're testing, whether that's a

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two thousand atom carbon molecule, whether that's an electron, whether

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that's a photon, when we aren't trying to detect which

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slit when we don't have which way information. That's the

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way physicists talk about it. It seems to go through

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both paths. When we do acquire which way information, it

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goes through one or the other. Describing it as like

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describing it as like a bullet that moves through and

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creates two vertical slits on the screen. That is technically

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not true. So yeah, I don't know why. I don't

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know where that came from. But you can watch videos

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going back, you know, very long. You know, you can

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black and white physicists talking about the double set experiment,

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and they always describe it this way, the incorrect way. However,

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it doesn't really matter, I guess, is the point, because

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the mystery of the experiment is the same, like, why

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does it only move through one slit when measured and

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both slots would not measure?

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Speaker 2: The medical reason for this is rather simple. If you

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have two slits, you add that's the interference term. But

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then the double slid experiment just seems to say that

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if you know the particle only goes through one slit

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at a time, then you get the pattern from only

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one slit at a time. And again I'd like to ask, well,

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what surprising about this? Here is the part that's actually

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surprising about the double slid experiment. It's not you can

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decide whether or not to measure which slit the particle

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goes through after you send the particle on the way.

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Suppose you send the particle from here there are always

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some particles that hit outside the slits, but these are

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not relevant, so we can just ignore them, and you

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put a detector in one of the slits, let's say

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the right one. You can either leave the detector off

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or you turn it on after the particle left the

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source and before it appeared on the screen. Now we've

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just seen that, to you, explain what happens on the screen.

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If we don't know which slid the particle went through,

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it needs to go through both slits, and if we

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do know which one it goes through, it goes through

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only one. The issue is then that if you turn

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the detector on, the wave function of the particle must

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suddenly update on both slits. It must jump from a

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wave function that goes through both slits at once to

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one that either goes left or goes right, but not both,

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and that update is instantaneous, faster than night. This is

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what Einstein called a spooky action distance. You make a

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measurement at one slit and the wavefunction on the other

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slit changes immediately. And note that this is the case

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even if the particle does not trigger the detector. If

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it doesn't go into the detector, you know it must

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have gone through the other slit. But if the particle

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went through the other slit, you never interacted with it,

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You didn't touch the particle.

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Speaker 1: So this is a critical piece because I remember when

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I was on the Brothers of the Serpent podcast, this

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was something Kyle, this immediate is immediate thing, which someone

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I'm sure had told him or he'd read somewhere, because

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it's a popular like rejoinder to the mystery of this

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experiment as well. Yeah, of course, if you're if you're

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interacting with the particle like an electron, you know, it

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could just be the interaction with it that causes it

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to behave differently, like if I'm trying to bounce photons,

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because that's how a camera works, right, If I'm bouncing

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photons off of electrons, like, certainly that could affect the

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way they behave. Now, there's many reasons why that's not.

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The explanation. One is you can measure the electron after

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it already goes through the slit. So in that case,

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if the interaction is causing a collapse of the wave function,

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then then that's a retrocausality issue. That means you're affecting

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something that happened in the past by something you're doing

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in the present. And this I would think would be

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an even bigger mystery, right, Like, if that were true,

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that's an even bigger mystery. But that isn't what's true

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because we know that you don't actually have to interact

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with the particle, right you can just set up the

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experiment so you're only measuring one slit, and even if

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the particle didn't go through that slit, you will know

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because you won't measure anything, but you still gain which

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way information because there's only two options. So if you

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measure one, if it's not there, we know it's in

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the other place. So even without physically interacting with the particle,

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we cause it to behave differently, We cause it instead

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of going through boslts at once, to just go through one.

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So this rejoinder is wrong, Like we just know what's wrong,

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and no one credible really proposes this as an explanation.

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I just want to nail that point home because that's

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the most common criticism that I hear. The criticism that

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Sabine is laying out is very different, and really so

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far it's not even really a criticism. It's just a

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deeper explanation.

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Speaker 2: It just knew you were trying to the only way

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that you can avoid this faster the light update is

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not the particle knows whether you'll measure it before you've

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made the decision whether to measure it or not. This

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is what's called super determinism, and this is what's so

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weird about the doubles slit. You either have to accept

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a faster than light update off the wave function the

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spooky action, or you have to accept that the future

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is fully determined already and know this actually has nothing

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to do with what happens on the screen. The screen

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is just the evidence for what happened at the slits.

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Speaker 3: I am addicted to this electrical engineering.

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Speaker 1: Game about to let you t be get a free

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ad on you guys skip.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you've been making fun of me for biting into

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my arm rest.

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Speaker 1: Now we have a ten minute commercial from Sabine herself

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about her chair. We gotta go use code blah blah blah. Okay,

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I think it's hard to tell exactly where I think

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we're going to go.

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Speaker 2: Back to the physics. So this, I think is the

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major misconception about the doubleicit experiment. It's not that if

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you measure which slit the particle goes through, it uses

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its wave properties. It's that the particle must have known

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whether you'd measure it or not, before you yourself knew

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that or fossiled.

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Speaker 1: I think she's wrong here. I mean, I'm sorry, she's brilliant,

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she knows way more than I do. I just I

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just think it's like a misinterpretation. Like she's right to criticize.

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You know, the criticism she's leveling is that if you

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measure it, it behaves like a bullet. If you don't,

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it behaves like a way. But I understand that's not

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exactly correct. You know, it goes through bose slits if

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you're not measuring it, it goes through one if you are.

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And so she's positing, like, okay, that leaves you with

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the problem. Either there's superdeterminism, which means that everything's predetermined

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the particle knows what you're gonna do, or there's faster

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than like communication, and I just I don't think it's

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either of those. I actually like, actually like Thomas Campbell's

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explanation for this. Hopefully we'll get to it today. I

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think it's very coming up soon. Where we left off so,

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but so I just sort of reject the premise. You know,

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I agree with the interpretation of you know, how to

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interpret the experiment, but the way she then frames us

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as two potential solutions I don't think is true the.

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Speaker 2: Light spooky action. Speaking of misconceptions, here is what Elon

357
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Musk recently had to say about the double sid experiment.

358
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It's consistent with the simulation hypothesis. Like a video game,

359
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objects are randomly generated with positionals, certainly only when observed.

360
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The simulation hypothesis is the idea that the entire universe,

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including us, is a computer simulation. The problem with the

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idea is that no one knows what this means. This

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is why everything is compatible with it. It's not even wrong.

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As Paully said so aptly.

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Speaker 1: I think that's kind of true. I mean I even

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sort of have the same frustration with saying it's a simulation,

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because I don't know exactly what that means. So now

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I don't maybe just a little flippant in the criticism though, like,

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because the experiment sort of does support the idea that

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matter behaves differently when it's being measured and when it doesn't.

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And so since we are basically measurement devices. I mean,

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that's what it means to be conscious. Right. We are

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a body imbued with sensors. We have a suite of

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sensors in our body and we can observe them. Right, So, like,

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what what does it mean to be conscious? It means like, well,

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you're you're taking measurements constantly and you're observing the outcomes

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of those measurements. So I don't know, I think I

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think that is actually kind of relevant. It kind of

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implies that. I think it actually I think Elon Musk's

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point is sort of correct. I mean, I guess he's

381
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wrong to say that there is no positional determinism you measure.

382
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That's not exactly correct, but it is. It is correct,

383
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But it kind of also is correct, you know what

384
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I mean, because you do you do have a particle

385
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that's in multiple places at once until you measure which

386
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that it goes through, and then it goes through one

387
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or the other. Now it still has wave like properties,

388
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but it's positional information does change when you when you

389
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try to determine where it is. Now. This is true

390
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for every feature of the quantum system. It doesn't have

391
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to necessarily be location. It could be speed, it could

392
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be spin, it could be momentum, right, But the point

393
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is when you try to determine the answer to those questions,

394
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it changes the way that the particle behaves.

395
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Speaker 2: The second problem is that objects in a video game

396
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I usually not truly randomly generated. While this is possible

397
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in principle, in practice it's.

398
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Speaker 1: I think this is a total misconception of what we mean.

399
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So she's saying like, well, yeah, I mean the computer

400
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,480
games aren't random, right, And it's like, well, yeah, no,

401
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,440
I don't think we're suggesting that that our observation is

402
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:24,319
randomly generating things. I think we're suggesting that the information

403
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:29,519
which underlies our reality isn't really rendered or doesn't make

404
00:24:29,559 --> 00:24:34,160
itself manifest until we try to interact with it. This

405
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,880
is different from saying like we're randomly generating reality. That's

406
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kind of a crazy that's kind of a crazy take.

407
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,359
It's kind of like a weird criticism unless I just

408
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:48,359
don't understand it. And also, quantumness isn't necessarily random either.

409
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,359
I mean, I understand that you can achieve true randomness

410
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with a quantum system, but it's probabilistic. You know, the

411
00:24:55,599 --> 00:25:01,160
states of quantum systems have probabilities, so I don't I

412
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,039
don't totally get the criticiz.

413
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Speaker 2: Rarely done because the only truly random processes are quantum mechanics.

414
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Usually video game algorithms are pseudorandom, which means they are

415
00:25:13,039 --> 00:25:18,519
created algorithmically, just by an algorithm that's very hard to predict.

416
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,440
If it were the case, the particles in a double

417
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,640
sid experiment were indeed generated like in video games, that is,

418
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following a deterministic algorithm that did contradict the current standard

419
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interpretation of quantum mechanics.

420
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Speaker 1: And yeah, that's true, but I just I don't understand

421
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,079
the relevance. Maybe somebody can email me. I don't get

422
00:25:42,079 --> 00:25:44,400
I don't get how this is relevant, Like I, yes,

423
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:48,960
video games are quantumly indeterministic, and yes, there we can't

424
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,920
algorithmically predict the outcome of quantum systems, like that's the point.

425
00:25:53,599 --> 00:25:55,640
So so I don't really get this.

426
00:25:55,839 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 2: I'd really like to know the algorithm. And third, it's

427
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,359
not true that measuring an object gives it position. A

428
00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:07,680
certainty that depends on what you measure. If you measure momentum,

429
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,200
then it's the momentum that obtains certainty, not the position.

430
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,400
While I'm metter though there are two O.

431
00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: The this is like some really smart people can be

432
00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:22,279
kind of like miss the point, you know, like, of

433
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,279
course Sabine's brilliant. She knows much more about physics than

434
00:26:25,319 --> 00:26:28,839
I do. But it's it's like, yeah, I understand everything

435
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,279
you're saying, but like, what does it have to do

436
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,200
with anything, Like, yeah, we know that, we know, we

437
00:26:34,319 --> 00:26:37,400
know everything you're saying. We like, I fully acknowledge, and

438
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,400
I agree with I don't, but I don't understand the

439
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,240
relevance to the sort of the mystery of the experiment

440
00:26:44,599 --> 00:26:48,880
and the implications of the mystery. And I don't understand

441
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:55,200
how anything she said sort of contradicts the simulation hypothesis.

442
00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:58,960
Now again, I don't believe in the simulation hypothesis because

443
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,000
I don't like the word. It's really linguistic thing it

444
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:08,680
implies like a technological component or a like a test,

445
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:16,960
like like like some alien civilization is simulating us. I'm

446
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,480
just say, no, no, that's sound we're saying that. What

447
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:24,000
it I just it's it's consistent with you could at

448
00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:28,119
least speculate. I think with on a good basis that

449
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:33,319
it's at least consistent with the created world. It's consistent

450
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,519
with the created universe. That's all that's to me. That

451
00:27:38,839 --> 00:27:42,640
this is when I say simulation hypothesis, that's what I mean.

452
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,440
There is a system with rules that we call physical laws,

453
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,000
and the smallest component of the system, I mean, actually

454
00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:58,119
maybe pretty large components of this system they behave differently

455
00:27:58,599 --> 00:28:02,079
when they're being observed, and you can say measured. The

456
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,680
difference between those two words is difficult to articulate, right

457
00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:13,000
because you know, I mean, you don't really know, like

458
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,839
what really what is the difference really? You know, I

459
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,759
think what you would say is measurement can occur without awareness,

460
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,440
But I don't necessarily know if that's like that important

461
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,359
of a distinction, because I think what we're saying is

462
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:38,240
like once, once you either consciously or automatically try to

463
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,480
force a particle to assume a position by measuring where

464
00:28:43,519 --> 00:28:48,480
it is, it does and so this this this takes

465
00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:55,000
I guess I think that's the interesting thing. You know, like,

466
00:28:55,119 --> 00:28:57,119
if you were going to design a system for agents

467
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,720
to live in, you might need to make that a

468
00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:01,960
part part of the system so that you're not essentially

469
00:29:03,759 --> 00:29:10,079
simulating the state of every quantum system in the universe. Simultaneously.

470
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,799
Things just sort of exist as information until they're interacted with.

471
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Speaker 2: I think this is the point the misunderstandings about the

472
00:29:21,799 --> 00:29:24,559
double sid experiment. One is that it's something to do

473
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,640
with consciousness that just isn't So the measurement doesn't have

474
00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:32,240
to be done by a conscious observer. Some operators will

475
00:29:32,359 --> 00:29:33,839
do the other thing.

476
00:29:33,759 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: That I think I've read I've peered into the future

477
00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:40,039
and sorry answer, so I think we already addressing.

478
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: And physicists are often confused about is momentum conservation because

479
00:29:44,759 --> 00:29:48,799
suppose the initial particles you sent went straight ahead and

480
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,119
at the plate, but then you measure a part heavy

481
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,599
other than a single particle, you can't measure this tiny kick.

482
00:29:56,119 --> 00:29:59,599
And you can do this if you use individual atoms

483
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,920
as the slits. Indeed, this was done in a recent point.

484
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:05,079
Speaker 1: Okay, I think, well, well, I think we're good, all right,

485
00:30:05,119 --> 00:30:09,640
so let's go to do you get what I'm saying?

486
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,440
Like it's interesting, I like to get grounded and what

487
00:30:13,559 --> 00:30:15,079
the actual experiment is.

488
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:16,799
Speaker 3: But the.

489
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: The casualness, right, the informality with which people will shift

490
00:30:25,039 --> 00:30:31,319
from interpreting, like talking about the experiment to like extrapolating

491
00:30:32,079 --> 00:30:35,759
what it means and what it doesn't mean. And it's like, no,

492
00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:38,680
I don't think we're ready to say all this that stuff.

493
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,799
I think all we really know is particle goes through

494
00:30:41,839 --> 00:30:43,680
both slits when you're not looking at it, or when

495
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,519
it's when you're not trying to determine which slit it

496
00:30:45,559 --> 00:30:49,400
went through, when you have no which way information, When

497
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,839
you acquire which way information, even if you do so

498
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,279
without interacting with the particle, the particle only goes through

499
00:30:56,319 --> 00:31:02,759
one slit. Why would this be? And I think one,

500
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,000
I think one way to interpret it. I don't think

501
00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:09,680
it's that far fetched. Well, you know what, let's see

502
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,440
if maybe Thomas Campbell will explain it.

503
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: In other words, the system may like you have a

504
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,920
you have a particle, and the particle comes in and

505
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,960
it's this kind of special plastic and it stops, but

506
00:31:20,079 --> 00:31:21,839
two particles come out. Yep.

507
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,319
Speaker 1: Okay, by the way, he's talking about entanglement.

508
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,279
Speaker 3: Now, the two particles come out are entangled. And if

509
00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:30,200
you look at that, one comes out, say this way

510
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,160
and one goes out that way. So if you take

511
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,920
the momentum is a vector, you take that vector and

512
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,920
say what's the component this way and what's the component

513
00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:43,920
this way opposite. Well, they're exactly the same, and they

514
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,880
cancel out because this one didn't have any momentum in

515
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,119
that direct conservation momentum. And you take the component that

516
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,559
was in the forward direction and it's exactly the same

517
00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:55,799
as the one that went in. So they're entangled by

518
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,359
the conservation laws. What comes out as to conserve what

519
00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:03,160
wine in. So if you have two particles going out,

520
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,119
each one's at half the energy as this one was

521
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,039
because they split that, you know, So anyway, that's the

522
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:12,359
way it works. And then there's all kinds of things

523
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,759
get and tangled there, but it's all one system. So

524
00:32:14,839 --> 00:32:18,720
those two particles come out now they're actually part of

525
00:32:18,799 --> 00:32:22,559
one thing. They're just one thing that's now in a

526
00:32:22,599 --> 00:32:23,680
different configuration.

527
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 4: But the speed of light doesn't matter to them, No,

528
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:26,599
it doesn't matter.

529
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: So they go off and now there are a million.

530
00:32:28,799 --> 00:32:31,599
Speaker 1: Sorry, this is a little confusing because we're shifting from

531
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,000
the double Sille experiment to entanglement. It's just where we

532
00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:39,480
left off. But I think it's it's related. So you know,

533
00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:42,400
we're talking about how can two particles be entangled? And

534
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,880
this gets at what Sabine was saying, because this is

535
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,599
one of the interpretations is that this violates Bell's theorem,

536
00:32:51,039 --> 00:32:56,079
you know, because you can't you can't have information cannot

537
00:32:56,119 --> 00:32:58,160
travel faster than the speed of light. Nothing can travel

538
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,640
faster than the speed of light. So because two entangled

539
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:07,759
photons interact with one another immediately, like truly immediately, then

540
00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:13,000
we have a problem because there's some sort of communication

541
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,440
transfer between these two particles that can occur over any

542
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:23,799
distance instantaneously. And Thomas's thoughts on this I think make

543
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,640
total sense. You know, the analogy we used a few

544
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,559
episodes ago is like, if you think about a video

545
00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:30,720
the only place where something like this could happen is

546
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:36,079
in a virtual world. Again, I'm not saying virtual as

547
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,880
in technological. I'm saying in a world that has the

548
00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:43,759
virtue of being real but in fact is not is

549
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,720
information only And so what that would mean You can

550
00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:52,960
imagine two levers, you know, like the light switches they

551
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,039
you know, you can have two light switches that control

552
00:33:55,119 --> 00:33:58,400
the same light, right, but now I imagine they're like

553
00:33:58,759 --> 00:34:01,880
inextricably linked. Flip one up, the other one flips down.

554
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,079
You can imagine that in a video game like we

555
00:34:05,279 --> 00:34:07,359
use legend of Zelda, but like some kind of maze.

556
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,679
You have to operate right, and when you flip one switch,

557
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:16,400
something happens and its corresponding switch flips down, and that

558
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:22,480
can happen instantaneously. That could happen simultaneously. And so you

559
00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:27,559
wouldn't say, how is that possible? How did the information

560
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,000
from one switch travel to the other faster than the

561
00:34:31,039 --> 00:34:33,880
speed of light? You wouldn't suggest that Bell's theorem had

562
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,440
been broken. You'd say, no, this is the same system.

563
00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:41,000
These switches are described by the same bit of code

564
00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:45,320
in this spinning hard disk in my computer, and so

565
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,000
they are the same system. There is no information communication

566
00:34:49,079 --> 00:34:53,119
between the two of them. They are simply manifestations of information.

567
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:56,400
And this is I think the appropriate way to describe

568
00:34:56,559 --> 00:34:57,320
entangled particles.

569
00:34:57,639 --> 00:35:00,679
Speaker 3: Light ears away. Right. If you change this one in

570
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,800
a way that changes the momentum let's say, like a

571
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,079
spin up or a spin down. That's a momentum vector. Actually,

572
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,960
then the other one changes because the result has to

573
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,800
be zero because it was zero to start.

574
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,159
Speaker 4: Sure, but how did they communicate?

575
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,599
Speaker 3: They don't communicate. It's all one thing.

576
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 4: It's one thing.

577
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,679
Speaker 3: It's one thing. Think of it this way. What if

578
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:26,239
we had a big two by four and it was

579
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,000
a million miles long.

580
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: I think we're going to agree that my analogy is

581
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,480
much better, but let me know what you think.

582
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:36,639
Speaker 3: And we were strong enough that we could just grab

583
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,519
it and flip it up, flip it upside down. Well,

584
00:35:39,559 --> 00:35:41,760
when we grab it and turn it over, the other area,

585
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,039
the other end, a million miles away, would turn over

586
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,159
just the same because it's all one thing, right, you see,

587
00:35:48,679 --> 00:35:52,360
it's all one thing. It's not two separate things. We

588
00:35:52,519 --> 00:35:55,440
see those two separate things. It's just a configuration of

589
00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:59,039
that one thing. And that one thing had certain conservation

590
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,039
rules associated with it. So when you do this, that

591
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,519
happens because they're all one system. They're not. We look

592
00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:07,280
at it and say that.

593
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,280
Speaker 1: Actually, that was pretty good. Well, I'll accept if you

594
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:11,920
like that better.

595
00:36:12,039 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: There's two different physical particles traveling. They're each independent. Yes,

596
00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:20,079
they're not independent. They're connected by the rules of conservation

597
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,320
and other things. You know, it connects them. So if

598
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,800
this one does something, you do something to this one.

599
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: Then if that but do you do you see the implication? Though,

600
00:36:33,519 --> 00:36:35,039
By the way, if there's a lot of background noise,

601
00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:37,639
I'm sorry, this microphone is really good when I listen

602
00:36:37,679 --> 00:36:41,159
to it. After at filtering out background noise. But while

603
00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:43,400
I'm recording, I can hear it all in my headphone,

604
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,599
so hopefully it's okay. Anyway, The implications of this are

605
00:36:47,639 --> 00:36:51,519
interesting because you hear Aj struggling with Yeah, but how

606
00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:53,920
does the information get from one to the other, Because

607
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,440
he is in a sort of framework that we're all in,

608
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,960
which is that these are real things and that the

609
00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:04,199
only way for them to interact each other with each

610
00:37:04,199 --> 00:37:11,599
other would be to physically transmit information across space. But

611
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,920
that's not what's happening. They're one system described by one

612
00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:21,760
set of rules that is appearing in two separate locations,

613
00:37:23,079 --> 00:37:25,800
and the only way this happens is in an information

614
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,840
based reality, which is what we're saying. I like that

615
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,679
better than the simulation hypothesis. You know, if you think

616
00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:38,079
about what a virtual reality is, it's an information based reality.

617
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,360
The chairs and tables in the video game aren't real.

618
00:37:43,159 --> 00:37:47,639
But if you're in the system governed by the same

619
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,239
rule set as that matter, as the tables and chairs,

620
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,280
they are real to you. They have the virtue of

621
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,840
being real. Does it make sense. Hopefully, if you're in

622
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:02,360
the system, it's real, But if you're out of the system,

623
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,000
it's very obvious that it's virtual. You know, you can

624
00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:12,199
point to the hardware that's generating this experience. And I

625
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,400
think maybe more than even the double set experiment, entanglement

626
00:38:17,519 --> 00:38:19,199
is sort of the proof of this.

627
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 3: You know, if that breaks the pattern that defines them,

628
00:38:23,519 --> 00:38:26,280
then the opposite thing has to happen to that one

629
00:38:26,599 --> 00:38:28,800
that sounds like a so so that when you put

630
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,800
them back together again, you don't have anything different than

631
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,840
what you started with. Right, So if you if you

632
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,639
look at it that way, you see it's not two

633
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,239
separate particles. It's just those two separate particles make one thing.

634
00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:44,000
And when you grab that one thing like that too

635
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:46,079
before that's a million miles long, and you turn it

636
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,920
upside down, it turns upside down a million miles away

637
00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:53,079
in the same instant, because it's all one thing.

638
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,079
Speaker 4: I don't think most physicists like this. I don't think

639
00:38:56,079 --> 00:38:56,920
they like this answer.

640
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 3: No, they probably don't. So then you have you have entanglement.

641
00:39:02,519 --> 00:39:04,559
You know, nice I didn't like entanglement. No he didn't.

642
00:39:04,599 --> 00:39:08,880
He said, guard doesn't play right. But anyway he got it.

643
00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:11,920
Later on, you know, the proof came out and and

644
00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:14,400
he said, okay, I mean and then he got right

645
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,079
into it and work worked with it as well as anybody. Sure,

646
00:39:18,559 --> 00:39:21,079
but he was he was slow to that game.

647
00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 4: But he couldn't get the math to work.

648
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 3: No, Well, now you in consciousness. What how is it

649
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,440
that you get something that's like this and then it changes. Well,

650
00:39:31,519 --> 00:39:34,599
it's easy. It's an if then statement, right, If this

651
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,840
one changes the spin, that one changed the spin, that's all.

652
00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:39,159
It's a computer program.

653
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:40,559
Speaker 4: It doesn't care about the distance.

654
00:39:40,559 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 3: It doesn't care. If this then that, It's simple the

655
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:48,079
fief of world.

656
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: You know what I'm gonna I'm gonna expand my analogy

657
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,679
a little bit. I got to figure out how to

658
00:39:56,679 --> 00:40:00,440
skip this commercial. I'm gonna expand my an allergy. But

659
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:10,679
two separate analogies. You have a light switch in your

660
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,800
hallway on one end of your hallway that turns the

661
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:14,880
lights on and off. You have another light switch on

662
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,559
the other end of the hallway. I actually have this

663
00:40:17,119 --> 00:40:21,320
in my house. You flip one up, the light turns on.

664
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,519
Nothing happens to the other one. But let's say they did.

665
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,199
Let's say they were locked in opposites. So when I

666
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,440
flip one up, the other one flip down. You would

667
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,079
be right in saying like, how does that happen? Clearly,

668
00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:38,239
there must be like a radio receiver and transmitter and

669
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,920
both switches so that the information can be transferred from

670
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,599
one to the other. And you would be right, that's

671
00:40:45,639 --> 00:40:47,000
how you would have to do it. There would have

672
00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:50,079
to be an information transfer. And that's because these are

673
00:40:50,159 --> 00:40:55,880
two distinct systems, right. These are two separate and distinct systems,

674
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,280
so there needs to be communication between them. However, you

675
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:03,519
can imagine that they are one system, and there's only

676
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,559
one way for us to do that. At the macro level. Now,

677
00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:08,519
we could entangle two photons and that would be that

678
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,960
that would be a system that's inversely locked in opposite. Right,

679
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,400
But if we wanted to recreate that light switch scenario

680
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,800
in a video game, we would not write separate blocks

681
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,039
of code for each light switch to behavior and then

682
00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:31,800
have in the game radio waves emanate from one light

683
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,159
switch to interact with the other light switch so that

684
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,280
they know. No, we would just write a single line

685
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,360
of code that describes the whole system. When one is

686
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,360
up the other is down. If then and so there

687
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,000
would be no information transfer between the two light switches.

688
00:41:47,119 --> 00:41:51,039
It's one system. If this is up, then this is down.

689
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,800
If that's up, this is down right, That's it. That's

690
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,760
what entanglement is. And the only place that can happen

691
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,960
is a virtual world. That's the only that that can't

692
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:10,280
be explained by Newtonian physics. This is it or don't

693
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,039
as far as I know, even really Einsteinian physics. This

694
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,159
is really a mystery. I mean, this was the twenty

695
00:42:16,199 --> 00:42:18,519
twenty two Nobel Prize proving that this is real. So

696
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,639
this is pretty fresh stuff. There's only one place where

697
00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:25,079
that works, and that's in a virtual world.

698
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 3: Cup is here and you can now feel the thrill.

699
00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:29,719
And those are the rules that can and play FIFA

700
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:30,360
World Cup.

701
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,079
Speaker 1: Trying to get back to the next world on Netflix.

702
00:42:33,199 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 3: Here we go. That's all. It's just an if statement.

703
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,400
That's elegant. So if this one flips, that one flips,

704
00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:43,000
because it's all part of the same thing, and those

705
00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:46,119
are the rules that connect it according to the rules set,

706
00:42:46,679 --> 00:42:49,159
and everything here has to happen according to the rule set.

707
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 4: Did you address entanglement in your twenty seventeen paper, You

708
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:53,159
didn't know.

709
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 3: I didn't go there. I didn't go there. I just

710
00:42:56,039 --> 00:42:59,679
was basically coming up with a bunch of experiments it

711
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,760
would the evidence to the fact that this is a

712
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,480
virtual reality and to the consciousness was the computer, and

713
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:08,920
I just got actually, I couldn't do any of them.

714
00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:12,280
I started with the first simple one. But it turns

715
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,280
out that I really in my you know, I have

716
00:43:15,519 --> 00:43:18,039
good dunkin experiments, you know, just thought experiments. If you

717
00:43:18,119 --> 00:43:20,280
did this, this is how it would come out. And

718
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,559
a lot of physics has done that way, and often

719
00:43:22,639 --> 00:43:25,119
years later they end up with an ability to actually

720
00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:28,320
do the experiment. But in this case, the ability to

721
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,199
do the experiment didn't exist because I was just saying

722
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,800
that I have the which way data. I wasn't saying

723
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,960
how I got it. Well that's a problem, right, that's

724
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:38,960
a problem. I just said, well, you have this which

725
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:40,519
way data and it does this, and you're going to

726
00:43:40,559 --> 00:43:42,480
get that and for which way? The wait is this

727
00:43:42,599 --> 00:43:45,280
way you get that? But I didn't actually say, here's

728
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:46,800
how we're going to get that which way data. And

729
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,079
it finds out that that's a much harder problem, and

730
00:43:49,159 --> 00:43:51,920
they don't know how to do that without interfering with

731
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,760
the experiment itself. Right, every way they do that, they

732
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,320
actually change the experiment.

733
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 4: So why would they change it by collapsing the way.

734
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,599
Speaker 3: No, No, they they actually kind of interfere with it.

735
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,239
Like if you have one of the ways that you

736
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,000
do it is that you have use entangled particles, you know,

737
00:44:11,159 --> 00:44:13,679
and you have this going on, this to the double slits,

738
00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:15,760
and this going down to tell you which slid it

739
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,360
went through, right, because you got two particles now that

740
00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:22,280
went through a you know, went through one sliit or

741
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,400
the other. And now one's going to the double slit

742
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,360
and the other one says I came from that slit.

743
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,280
So you get that one to tell you what slid

744
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,360
it went through. But the problem is these are entangled,

745
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,119
they're not disconnected. So what you do here changes they are.

746
00:44:36,559 --> 00:44:38,159
What happens there changes here, you know.

747
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,159
Speaker 1: Okay, so he is talking about the double slit experiment,

748
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,840
but in a slightly different way. We're talking about entangled

749
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:48,719
particles now, so this is this completely changes the double

750
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,679
slid experiments is like the quantum eracer experiment or delayed choice.

751
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,199
There's all there's many different permutations of the double slit experiment.

752
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,239
So it's a little confusing. And I just wanted to

753
00:44:58,280 --> 00:44:58,800
make that point.

754
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,679
Speaker 3: You've got connection going on there, which messes up with

755
00:45:03,519 --> 00:45:07,880
the experiment, it changes things and they find that like

756
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,639
if you have a particle going through and you want

757
00:45:09,679 --> 00:45:12,000
to send a photon to hit it and see which

758
00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:14,199
did it go through? Oh, my photon found it there.

759
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,119
Oh well that's a measurement. Now you got a particle. Yes,

760
00:45:17,519 --> 00:45:21,360
it's not probability anymore. You just measured the particle, you know,

761
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,440
and that's all you get. Then the particle goes straight

762
00:45:23,519 --> 00:45:26,719
and hit the h you know, hit the backstop, hit

763
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,480
the screen right behind the slit. But if you don't

764
00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:33,159
measure it, it stays probability until it hits the screen. Yes,

765
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,039
and then it's a random drawl from the probability distribution

766
00:45:36,199 --> 00:45:39,440
of the possibilities. And that's an interference pattern. And the

767
00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:42,400
reason that had to be an interference pattern is because

768
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:47,159
we already had optics shining coherent light through slits and

769
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,480
coming up with interference patterns. That's how they came up

770
00:45:49,519 --> 00:45:50,400
with the wave theory.

771
00:45:50,519 --> 00:45:55,599
Speaker 1: Because now this is a wild interpretation, I have to admit,

772
00:45:56,559 --> 00:45:59,639
but I kind of like the ideas was like the

773
00:45:59,679 --> 00:46:01,800
reason and it works this way. It has to do

774
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,119
with our history of discovery in science, which is like

775
00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:09,519
we already knew that light behaves a certain way we

776
00:46:09,679 --> 00:46:14,519
understand optics from Newton, and so the whatever the whatever,

777
00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:16,760
the answer is to this whole double set thing. It

778
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,960
has to be parsimonious with optics. And so the idea

779
00:46:21,079 --> 00:46:25,360
is it behaves like light, like coherent lights when it's unobserved.

780
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,679
But then when we when we try to because we

781
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,079
also have this concept of light particles, it will also

782
00:46:31,159 --> 00:46:33,159
sort of behave like a particle. I guess when we

783
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:34,880
try to determine which slid it goes to, it's very

784
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,119
it's a little confusing. The second time I'm listening to it,

785
00:46:37,199 --> 00:46:38,400
I miss this. The first time.

786
00:46:38,519 --> 00:46:42,079
Speaker 3: You can show that the thoughts of light, you know,

787
00:46:42,119 --> 00:46:44,159
and that's all you get. Then the particle goes straight

788
00:46:44,199 --> 00:46:47,079
and hit the hit you know, hit the backstop, hit

789
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,960
hit the screen right behind the slit. But if you

790
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,400
don't measure it, it stays probability until it hits the screen,

791
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,760
and then it's a random draw from the probability distribution

792
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,079
of the possibilities. And that's an interference pattern. HM. And

793
00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:02,679
the reason I had to be an interference pattern is

794
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,719
because we already had optics shine in coherent light through

795
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,840
slits and coming up with interference patterns. That's how they

796
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,159
came up with the wave theory because they can show

797
00:47:12,199 --> 00:47:15,719
that the thoughts of light and a spaces between them.

798
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,760
You can do that with a simple trig problem.

799
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,559
Speaker 1: I'm with them, I just I'm not sure if it's

800
00:47:21,639 --> 00:47:28,880
really wise to suggest that like matter and energy will

801
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:34,719
behave differently because we learned something else first, Like it

802
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,039
sort of implies that it wouldn't have turned out this

803
00:47:37,159 --> 00:47:40,360
way if we hadn't learned optics first as a species.

804
00:47:41,679 --> 00:47:45,920
I don't know if that really makes sense. I mean

805
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,679
maybe who knows. I mean, listen, if it's a created world,

806
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,280
anything's possible. And there's theological implications when you hear stuff

807
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,480
like that, right, you know, because there's passages in the

808
00:47:55,519 --> 00:47:57,559
Bible where I mean, if you look at what are

809
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,480
some of the main messages of Jesus is to care

810
00:48:00,559 --> 00:48:04,039
for the poor, To love your neighbor, and not just

811
00:48:04,119 --> 00:48:07,480
the ones that are a part of your tribe.

812
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:08,599
Speaker 3: Right love.

813
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the story of the good Samaritan, right

814
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,719
because he's specifically not a member of the tribe, he's

815
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,239
a Samaritan, and he sort of held up as the

816
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,000
perfect example of loving your neighbor because he stops to

817
00:48:23,079 --> 00:48:25,559
help the man who's robbed, even though they're not members

818
00:48:25,599 --> 00:48:28,400
of the same tribe. So that's one key message. The

819
00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:34,000
second key message is the importance of belief. And like

820
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,400
this is not just illustrated verbally, like when he says,

821
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,280
if you have faith as small as a mustard seed,

822
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:41,159
you can say to that mountain, move and it will.

823
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,440
You know that idea, but this is actually shown like

824
00:48:46,079 --> 00:48:50,199
in visual terms when Jesus is out on the water

825
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,400
and he calls to Peter and says, Peter, join me.

826
00:48:55,519 --> 00:48:59,960
And Peter, just overwhelmed and filled with belief and faith

827
00:49:00,519 --> 00:49:03,960
in his Lord, steps out of the boat and walks

828
00:49:04,039 --> 00:49:07,559
on water. But as he gets closer to Jesus, he

829
00:49:07,679 --> 00:49:11,159
starts to like the the logical rational part of his

830
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,639
brain starts to like go like, wait, what am I doing?

831
00:49:14,119 --> 00:49:16,199
You know, I can't walk on water. What am I doing?

832
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,840
Even though he's already doing it, And the wind picks

833
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,639
up and he gets scared, and before he gets to Jesus,

834
00:49:21,679 --> 00:49:25,000
he falls into the water and Jesus grabs his hand

835
00:49:25,079 --> 00:49:28,079
and says, you have little faith, you know, and helps

836
00:49:28,159 --> 00:49:30,519
him up. And it is this implication like he can

837
00:49:30,599 --> 00:49:34,679
walk on water because he believes he can, you know,

838
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,920
which is kind of cool, like in the in the

839
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,719
concept I mean, obviously it's cool, but in the concept

840
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:45,880
of modern science and quantum physics, and you know, you

841
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:53,400
you could interpret measurements as updating your belief. You know,

842
00:49:53,639 --> 00:49:57,440
when when you attempt to measure a particle, you're obtaining information,

843
00:49:57,559 --> 00:50:00,000
which way, information that updates your belief, and it shangs

844
00:50:01,559 --> 00:50:06,679
the way sub atomic even atomic, even molecular particles behave.

845
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,800
It's kind of cool. It's just kind of I mean

846
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,079
they yeah, you could say, like, okay, you're you're reading

847
00:50:15,119 --> 00:50:16,719
into it a bit much. You know, it's just a

848
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,119
simple story about belief, and it may be you know,

849
00:50:22,159 --> 00:50:24,599
you can interpret that however you want. But it's just

850
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,480
kind of cool. I like the rhymes.

851
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,519
Speaker 3: Sure, you know, so there it is. It's a wave.

852
00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:32,559
Those waves go in all directions and they interfere with

853
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:35,079
each other. If the distance between this slit and that

854
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:37,920
slit is an even number of wavelengths, and you get

855
00:50:38,679 --> 00:50:41,679
you know, they add and if they're half some integer

856
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,000
half of wavelengths, then they destroy. You know, they interfere

857
00:50:45,079 --> 00:50:49,159
with each other's waves. So we already knew that if

858
00:50:49,199 --> 00:50:52,199
you put coherent light two slits, you're going to get

859
00:50:52,199 --> 00:50:58,280
an interference mattern. Now that left the larger conscious system

860
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,679
with no choice. It could do one of one of

861
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,719
two things. It could let there be a what we

862
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:11,880
call it a logical problem with the physics with the

863
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,960
rules set, and that is when you shine the light

864
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,039
item over here in optics, and optics was one hundred

865
00:51:17,079 --> 00:51:20,360
years ahead of quantum physics, so we knew that was

866
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,800
the case now here. If it wasn't the case, why not.

867
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,639
You see, there'd be a logical inconsistency between quantum physics

868
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,000
and optics. One would say the others that was wrong,

869
00:51:32,039 --> 00:51:34,960
and that would say the others wrong, and science shouldn't

870
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,519
have these things. What the larger constant system did is

871
00:51:38,599 --> 00:51:41,559
it said, okay, what I'll do is you'll you'll send

872
00:51:41,599 --> 00:51:44,840
a particle to the slit. But it's still probability. When

873
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,199
I get to the end where it hits something and

874
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,039
I have to put a particle somewhere, I have to

875
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:52,719
render a particle somewhere. I'll take a random draw from

876
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,639
a probability distribution that is exactly like an interference pattern.

877
00:51:57,079 --> 00:52:00,639
Here's my probability distribution. It looks just like an inference. Yes,

878
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,559
so randomly, I'll take that draw and what we'll see

879
00:52:03,559 --> 00:52:05,199
as a particle here and here and.

880
00:52:07,559 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: I was muted. Sorry, it's pretty cool. Gosh, something is

881
00:52:13,039 --> 00:52:16,239
up with my sound anyway, it's pretty cool idea.

882
00:52:17,039 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 3: I like it? Do you like it?

883
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: I like it? I mean, of course, there's all kinds

884
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:26,119
of crazy implications, right, which is you know, it just

885
00:52:26,199 --> 00:52:28,679
seems historically like the world used to be a more

886
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:33,800
magical place. You know, there were prophets people God was

887
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:38,760
literally speaking to people. This is what we believed. And

888
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,199
the reason I sort of the reason I'm tempted to

889
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,679
believe it is there are periods like in Jewish history

890
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:49,719
where everyone agrees that God isn't speaking to anyone. And

891
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,480
it's like if this, if if the prophets were just

892
00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:55,960
really like a manifestation of insanity, you know, which would

893
00:52:56,039 --> 00:52:59,800
I think most skeptical atheists people would think, like, hey,

894
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,960
they think Scott's talking to him. He's a schizophrenic, you know,

895
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:08,880
or seeking attention or whatever. If that were the case,

896
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,159
you would kind of expect it to be fairly consistent

897
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:16,159
through history, Like a a certain segment of the population

898
00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:21,719
is willing to, you know, risk it all and say

899
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,239
God's talking to them, whether they really believe it or not,

900
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,119
Like some certain portion of the population is going to

901
00:53:28,199 --> 00:53:30,320
do this over time. But the fact that we have

902
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,519
like four hundred year chunks where everyone agrees that God's

903
00:53:34,639 --> 00:53:37,960
just not speaking to anyone, it's a little unusual. It

904
00:53:38,079 --> 00:53:40,039
kind of I think gives a little bit of credibility

905
00:53:40,119 --> 00:53:42,639
to the fact that, like, no, there is there was

906
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:47,480
some process for determining if God really was speaking to people.

907
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,159
Who knows, you know, it's a stretch, But the point is,

908
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:53,639
it does seem like the world used to be a

909
00:53:53,679 --> 00:53:59,320
more magical place. And you do wonder, like as we

910
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:08,679
study creation and map it and measure it and define

911
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:13,800
it and theorize about it and test the theories and reduce, reduce, reduce, reduce,

912
00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:16,400
which is what science is for. And that's good. I'm

913
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,760
glad we have it. You know, it's where medicine comes from.

914
00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:25,039
But as we do that, do we lose some of

915
00:54:25,119 --> 00:54:27,480
the mystery? And I don't I don't just mean that

916
00:54:27,599 --> 00:54:30,000
and like we know more therefore there's less to know,

917
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,760
like less problems to solve. I mean, like, do we

918
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:39,960
actually prevent magical things from happening? Because we all know

919
00:54:40,119 --> 00:54:44,880
they can't happen. Now, listen, this is kind of like

920
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,039
Christmas spirit. You know, I'm not I'm not taking if

921
00:54:48,119 --> 00:54:50,679
only we believe, you know, Santa will come. But but

922
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:52,880
I think you get what I'm saying, right, I mean,

923
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:58,679
there are there's real manifestations of this, like the placebo effect, interestingly,

924
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:04,960
is growing in magnitude over time. Placeibo effects fascinating because

925
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,360
you can have huge effects. I mean, you can have

926
00:55:07,639 --> 00:55:12,079
placebo effects that are much larger than pharmacological effects, not

927
00:55:12,199 --> 00:55:19,480
much larger, but bigger. You can classically condition the placebo effect.

928
00:55:19,559 --> 00:55:23,440
You can give people an immunosuppressant paired with yogurt strawberry yogurt.

929
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,639
You give it to them every day or you know,

930
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,320
once a week, and so after they take the yogurt,

931
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,039
you can measure their immune response and it's blunted because

932
00:55:32,039 --> 00:55:36,840
they're taking an immunosuppressant. Then you can give them just

933
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:42,239
the strawberry yogurt and they'll have the same immunosuppression without

934
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:47,599
the immuno suppress So you can classically condition these things. Now,

935
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,960
this is not necessarily conscious belief doing that. This is

936
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,599
something else. But the point is, at some scale consciousness

937
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,840
does come into play because if you I mean, this

938
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,599
is why you have placeiba control or shams in a trout,

939
00:56:02,639 --> 00:56:05,880
because you can imagine setting up an experiment and I

940
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:07,920
did an experiment like this. It's not as big of

941
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,599
a cult. You know, it's not the cold standard. You

942
00:56:10,679 --> 00:56:12,920
can put people in one group and say, hey, this

943
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:20,440
drug we think it's gonna, what whatever, cure depression. I mean,

944
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,519
if something psychological like that, it's really you're gonna have

945
00:56:23,559 --> 00:56:25,880
a really big effect. But say something more tangible, like

946
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:31,000
we think it's going to make it so you get

947
00:56:31,039 --> 00:56:34,639
over this respiratory virus much more quickly. Let's say we

948
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,119
only enroll people with who have the flu, and we

949
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,320
randomly assign them to two groups, and we give one

950
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,039
group a drug that we really do think is going

951
00:56:43,119 --> 00:56:45,559
to work. Right, it really is for the flu. We

952
00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:48,559
give it to them and they have some effect, and

953
00:56:48,599 --> 00:56:51,400
then we have another group and say hey, you have

954
00:56:51,519 --> 00:56:54,360
the flu. We're not going to treat you at all.

955
00:56:54,679 --> 00:56:59,440
You get nothing, right, And then you might have a

956
00:56:59,559 --> 00:57:03,760
third group where you tell them hey, you're getting this drug.

957
00:57:04,199 --> 00:57:06,079
This drug we think it's going to cure the flu.

958
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:08,519
It's been under development. We're very proud of it. This

959
00:57:08,679 --> 00:57:12,639
is the mechanism. It's very potent. We have great results.

960
00:57:12,679 --> 00:57:14,320
Like you can put on the show and you can

961
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,159
give them the drug, but there could be nothing in

962
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:22,320
the pill. But flower that group will have a bigger effect,

963
00:57:22,719 --> 00:57:25,440
maybe in some cases, like as big an effect as

964
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:29,079
the pharmacological group, and a much bigger effect than the

965
00:57:30,039 --> 00:57:32,679
control that gets nothing. So the point is like there's

966
00:57:32,719 --> 00:57:39,360
a difference between you know, a control group that knows

967
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,400
they're not being treated in a control group that thinks

968
00:57:42,559 --> 00:57:46,079
they are being treated. That's a placebo control group or

969
00:57:46,119 --> 00:57:49,320
a sham if it's not a medicine. You know, you

970
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:53,280
could imagine you're doing like transcranial ultrasound for depression. You

971
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:55,440
can have one group or that actually get the treatment

972
00:57:55,519 --> 00:57:57,320
and then another group or that you don't. You don't

973
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:00,199
plug it in, you know, you put the device on them,

974
00:58:00,239 --> 00:58:01,880
you tell them it's on, but you don't actually turn

975
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:04,880
it on. That would be a sham, which is basically

976
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:10,239
a placebo but without a pill. Anyway, Interestingly, the strength

977
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,320
of the placebo effect is increasing over time, but it's

978
00:58:13,719 --> 00:58:19,119
only increasing in countries where we have a positive belief

979
00:58:19,239 --> 00:58:26,480
about drugs. So you know, Western countries, you know, Western Europe, Australia,

980
00:58:26,599 --> 00:58:28,599
the US. That might be changing now because I think

981
00:58:28,639 --> 00:58:31,280
our interpretations of drugs has changed in the past five years.

982
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:36,039
But in areas where we think medicine works, the placebo

983
00:58:36,119 --> 00:58:39,880
effect is stronger. And so right there, I mean, this

984
00:58:40,039 --> 00:58:45,920
is belief affecting physical matter. You can you can sort

985
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,079
of come up with all sorts of frameworks like, hey,

986
00:58:48,119 --> 00:58:51,199
the brain is physical, and you know, if you're happy,

987
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:53,119
it's different, blah blah blah blah blah. But the point.

988
00:58:53,159 --> 00:58:57,000
But the point is this is belief affecting affecting your reality,

989
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:03,000
affecting your physical matter. Now that's a far cry from

990
00:59:03,039 --> 00:59:05,880
what Thomas Campbell is saying, but still it's cool.

991
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:07,719
Speaker 3: I like it here and down there and over here.

992
00:59:08,039 --> 00:59:10,000
But if you look at it and collect enough particles,

993
00:59:10,679 --> 00:59:13,679
you end up with the probability distribution, because that's what's

994
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:17,639
being drawn out of and that then says that optics

995
00:59:18,199 --> 00:59:24,280
and quantum physics are not mutually incompatible. Logically, it keeps

996
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:28,559
the science together. Yes, so that's why the system chose

997
00:59:28,679 --> 00:59:32,199
that as the way to do that particular thing. So

998
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:33,880
it kind of got it out of a problem.

999
00:59:34,199 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 4: You're making it sound like it was that consciousness made

1000
00:59:37,039 --> 00:59:37,599
had intention.

1001
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,239
Speaker 3: Sure, consciousness is conscious, it has intention.

1002
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 4: So what's collapsing the wave functions? Is it the measurement

1003
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:44,480
or consciousness?

1004
00:59:44,559 --> 00:59:48,639
Speaker 3: No, nothing, it's just as it's information. You have information

1005
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:53,360
and the information I like thisation doesn't have to get

1006
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,559
into the physical world until it hits something and you

1007
00:59:55,639 --> 00:59:58,400
make a measurement. When you make a measurement, then it's

1008
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,360
in the physical world. Don't make a measurement, it's still

1009
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:05,360
in the world of probability. So you have these particles

1010
01:00:06,079 --> 01:00:10,480
and they're going to hit somewhere. Well, if you send

1011
01:00:10,599 --> 01:00:14,000
one particle at a time through, that's no different than

1012
01:00:14,079 --> 01:00:16,480
sending a billion particles at a time through. Because the

1013
01:00:16,679 --> 01:00:20,760
photons don't interact with each other, right, they're totally non interactive.

1014
01:00:21,239 --> 01:00:23,280
So whether you send one or you send a billion,

1015
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,440
you need to get the same answer otherwise you've got

1016
01:00:26,519 --> 01:00:27,880
a logical problem.

1017
01:00:28,599 --> 01:00:33,599
Speaker 1: This is amazing. I love this because we had this

1018
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,360
very physical interpretation of how interference would work, which is

1019
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:41,159
that the photons are bumping into each other and you

1020
01:00:41,239 --> 01:00:46,199
know whatever. Like this very physical framework for how an

1021
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,639
interference pattern comes to be. What he's saying is no, no, no,

1022
01:00:49,519 --> 01:00:52,840
This is described by essentially like something you could think

1023
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:57,639
of like code, like by a rule set. It's not

1024
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:04,679
the physical properties themselves, it's this is how photons behave period, right,

1025
01:01:06,199 --> 01:01:09,320
and so the fact that they behave the same way

1026
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,559
with when you send millions of them through or one

1027
01:01:12,639 --> 01:01:17,239
at a time is kind of evidence of that. It's

1028
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,960
kind of proof of that. It's pretty cool, man, it's

1029
01:01:20,039 --> 01:01:20,519
pretty cool.

1030
01:01:20,559 --> 01:01:20,719
Speaker 3: Now.

1031
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:28,079
Speaker 1: It's it's difficult to like extrapolate this up to the

1032
01:01:28,199 --> 01:01:32,719
macro world, to our world, but I think it might.

1033
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,440
I mean, we don't have any evidence that it wouldn't.

1034
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,320
The problem is it gets more and more difficult to

1035
01:01:38,719 --> 01:01:42,000
design the experiment. Like I think we're up to three

1036
01:01:42,119 --> 01:01:44,639
thousand atom what are called bucket balls. There are these

1037
01:01:44,719 --> 01:01:53,880
carbon nanotube balls with thousands of carbon atoms. But the

1038
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:55,599
thing is you you have you need a way to

1039
01:01:55,719 --> 01:02:00,440
like to turn them into like a coherent beam to

1040
01:02:00,639 --> 01:02:03,760
test this, because it does seem it really does seem

1041
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:07,559
like it's what he's saying, like, there's this, there's this.

1042
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:11,079
We need to make optics compatible with quantum mechanics, and

1043
01:02:11,199 --> 01:02:13,440
this is how it's compatible, you know what I mean,

1044
01:02:13,519 --> 01:02:17,679
This is the way to make it all compatible in

1045
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:21,039
a way that we can't really recreate on the macro level,

1046
01:02:21,239 --> 01:02:23,519
Like you can't turn me into a coherent beam and

1047
01:02:23,639 --> 01:02:27,840
shine me through a sled. You know, but you know,

1048
01:02:28,079 --> 01:02:31,039
knowing that all the particles I'm composed of do behave

1049
01:02:31,159 --> 01:02:36,079
this way that they that they are influenced by, you

1050
01:02:36,199 --> 01:02:40,559
know that the outcomes of the quantum events within these

1051
01:02:40,679 --> 01:02:48,880
systems are probabilistic, not deterministic, and that I don't know

1052
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:50,760
that seems interesting to me. I don't know what to

1053
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:54,079
make of it. I mean, I think the virtual world

1054
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:57,199
explanation is the most parsimonious, But I don't know.

1055
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 3: What do you think? I mean, quantum physics and optics, Right,

1056
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:04,000
So it basically says, well, I can fix that problem.

1057
01:03:04,519 --> 01:03:07,880
I can make that random draw from the probability distribution

1058
01:03:08,079 --> 01:03:11,199
be a probability distribution looks just like an interference pattern,

1059
01:03:12,599 --> 01:03:19,159
no logical inconsistency. But now you if you make a measurement. Hey,

1060
01:03:19,199 --> 01:03:22,039
I'm going to watch these I'm gonna watch these slits

1061
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:25,159
and when when something goes through there, I'm gonna say, ah,

1062
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,280
there's there's a particle just went through slid A. Well,

1063
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:30,880
that's a measurement I have to make a measurement. Since

1064
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:33,480
I make a measurement, the system has to create a

1065
01:03:33,599 --> 01:03:36,800
particle there because you measured it. So now it just

1066
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,079
goes in a straight line and hits the backdrop. Because

1067
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:41,559
now it's a particle, How did it know it was measured?

1068
01:03:43,079 --> 01:03:46,199
The system's rendering it. If the system gives you a

1069
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,800
machine that's not arguing with you. Now, if the system, it's.

1070
01:03:49,679 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 1: A good question because this is the misconception. People think

1071
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:56,440
we're assigning agency to the particle.

1072
01:03:56,719 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 3: We're not.

1073
01:03:57,559 --> 01:04:01,559
Speaker 1: The particle is described by information. It exists within a system.

1074
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:06,719
We're interacting with the rules of the system, the rules

1075
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:11,079
set you know, you don't. You wouldn't. If you had

1076
01:04:11,119 --> 01:04:14,480
a video game character and he's looking out at a city.

1077
01:04:15,039 --> 01:04:17,000
His house is behind him, but you can't see it.

1078
01:04:17,119 --> 01:04:21,000
He can't see it, he's looking away from it. When

1079
01:04:21,079 --> 01:04:22,599
you when he turns around and looks at the door.

1080
01:04:23,039 --> 01:04:27,239
What's happened now? You and I know that that house,

1081
01:04:28,639 --> 01:04:32,559
until moments ago, was just spinning zeros and ones on

1082
01:04:32,639 --> 01:04:37,159
a disc. The moment it enters your character's perceptual field,

1083
01:04:38,039 --> 01:04:42,719
it's rendered visually. Now we're just dealing with one sense

1084
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:47,000
in this case. But you could imagine it being for everything, smell, touch, temperature,

1085
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:52,239
that everything could work this way. So you you turn

1086
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:59,719
around and there it is. What's actually happened. Well, you

1087
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:03,400
could say, well, the house has been pulled out of

1088
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,679
information storage and rendered to you in a way that

1089
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:08,440
you can see it, you can touch it, you can

1090
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:11,519
put your hand up against it. And then someone might say, well,

1091
01:05:11,559 --> 01:05:16,639
how does the house know it's being measured? And it doesn't.

1092
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:19,079
And this is the answer to AJ's question, like, how

1093
01:05:19,119 --> 01:05:22,360
does the particle know? It doesn't know. This is the system,

1094
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:27,480
this is the rule set. It doesn't know anything. It's information.

1095
01:05:29,039 --> 01:05:33,679
It's your perceptual lens as the agent that makes things happen.

1096
01:05:35,559 --> 01:05:38,480
You're not creating the house. The house is already created,

1097
01:05:38,519 --> 01:05:43,679
it's described, it's stored. It's information. You are now pulling

1098
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,719
it out of just an information state into a real

1099
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:49,360
state that you can interact with. This is the nature

1100
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:54,039
of virtual world. This is how virtual worlds work in

1101
01:05:54,199 --> 01:05:56,519
this seems to be how our world works.

1102
01:05:56,599 --> 01:05:59,199
Speaker 3: Here's you're a machine, yeah that can tell when a

1103
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,519
particle goes there, Then you've made a measurement.

1104
01:06:01,679 --> 01:06:03,159
Speaker 4: Why is it messing with us like this.

1105
01:06:05,159 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 3: Being consistent? Yeah, if you can measure something, you know,

1106
01:06:10,039 --> 01:06:13,400
businessists will tell you that are materialists that if you

1107
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:14,679
can't measure it doesn't exist.

1108
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 4: Well sorry, right, then explain that.

1109
01:06:18,199 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 3: They say it's non interactive. Right, if you can't measure it,

1110
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,280
you can't see it, you can't feel it, you can't

1111
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:25,519
smell it. If he's if it's not interactive, then it

1112
01:06:25,599 --> 01:06:26,519
doesn't really exist.

1113
01:06:26,639 --> 01:06:29,119
Speaker 1: Or if it does exist, then the funny thing is

1114
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:33,519
AJ thinks he's criticizing the physicists here. He's not. He's

1115
01:06:33,559 --> 01:06:37,800
saying they're right. When you can't measure observe something, it

1116
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:43,719
doesn't exist. So it's just interesting to hear the this

1117
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:48,400
is this is a difficult concept.

1118
01:06:48,239 --> 01:06:51,639
Speaker 3: Make any difference. It's irrelevant. So that's a definition of

1119
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:56,000
reality based on measurement. M okay, well that's the way

1120
01:06:56,280 --> 01:07:00,159
the physical world works. So when they measure, oh, a

1121
01:07:00,239 --> 01:07:03,199
particle just went through the slit, Well they measured it,

1122
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,760
then it has to be a particle. They've measured the particle.

1123
01:07:07,159 --> 01:07:10,320
That makes a particle there. That particle can't do anything

1124
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:14,039
but go in a straight line, because that's what particles do. Well,

1125
01:07:14,199 --> 01:07:17,440
now they don't measure it, and we don't know. We

1126
01:07:18,199 --> 01:07:21,079
don't know what slid it went through. So I'll just

1127
01:07:21,239 --> 01:07:25,519
take that and make that interference pattern be my probability pattern,

1128
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:28,920
and I'm going to have those little particles, even though

1129
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,159
they're just going through one slit or another, they're going

1130
01:07:31,199 --> 01:07:34,239
to end up on the screen in an interference pattern.

1131
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:38,519
Because then I don't have a problem between optics and

1132
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:43,119
quantum physics, because the little photons are all non interactive.

1133
01:07:43,199 --> 01:07:44,960
It doesn't matter how many you send through it. Whether

1134
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,840
you're shining a laser light on the two slits over

1135
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,320
here in optics or whether you're going one.

1136
01:07:50,239 --> 01:07:51,599
Speaker 4: At a time, doesn't matter.

1137
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 3: Doesn't matter.

1138
01:07:53,519 --> 01:07:55,559
Speaker 1: I think that's a great place to start. What a

1139
01:07:56,079 --> 01:08:00,800
what a duel of the physicists? Man, No, Sabine and

1140
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:06,039
Thomas aren't physicists in the same sense, right. I think

1141
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:09,320
my understanding is Sabine has like a much more traditional

1142
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:13,679
academic pedigree. Let's look her up. Let's look her up

1143
01:08:13,679 --> 01:08:17,000
on research gate. I encourage you guys to do this.

1144
01:08:17,119 --> 01:08:21,479
You just go to ResearchGate dot net and you type

1145
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:34,159
in Sabine, haustin Felder in people here she is theoretical physics.

1146
01:08:34,279 --> 01:08:39,399
One hundred and fifty four publications, five thousand citations and

1147
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:45,920
in h index of thirty seven. Now pretty impressive. So

1148
01:08:46,159 --> 01:08:48,359
I mean I would assume Thomas Campbell probably doesn't even

1149
01:08:48,399 --> 01:08:52,199
have a let's see, like a record of his publication

1150
01:08:52,359 --> 01:08:59,840
track record. Let's see. No, I don't think so. Yeah,

1151
01:09:00,359 --> 01:09:03,359
and so listen, this doesn't mean she's smarter or better.

1152
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:05,399
It's just this is just a measure. My point is

1153
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:10,680
that they're different. However, even so, I'm not super impressed

1154
01:09:11,199 --> 01:09:14,960
that you have a hundred publications because I know it's

1155
01:09:15,039 --> 01:09:18,960
not really the way it works. Let me explain to

1156
01:09:19,159 --> 01:09:21,840
my dog is psychotic. It just goes in and out,

1157
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:26,079
in and out, in and out when I'm on a podcast. Sorry,

1158
01:09:26,119 --> 01:09:28,359
I had to shut the door. I think that like

1159
01:09:28,399 --> 01:09:32,399
a much better measure of your experience as a scientist

1160
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:37,960
is how many first author publications you have and how

1161
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:41,840
many last author publications you have. So this is just

1162
01:09:42,359 --> 01:09:44,479
let me give you a brief insight into academia, and

1163
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:50,319
then we'll we'll end the show. So, if you are

1164
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,840
the last author on a paper, that means that you

1165
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:58,439
are the senior researcher. It means that the either the

1166
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:02,880
experiment happened in or lab, or that you funded the experiment,

1167
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:05,359
or that you funded the person who wrote the paper,

1168
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:09,039
and it should imply that you had a pretty significant

1169
01:10:09,079 --> 01:10:13,439
rule in like guiding the project. Right, if you're the

1170
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:15,439
first author, it means you wrote the whole thing, You

1171
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:18,520
did everything, you made, the figures, you ran the analysis.

1172
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:22,079
Usually not always, sometimes you might have a separate statistician.

1173
01:10:22,199 --> 01:10:24,520
But you made all the figures, you made, all you did,

1174
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,239
all the stats, you wrote, every word of the paper.

1175
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:32,199
Every other person on that list of twenty authors is

1176
01:10:32,319 --> 01:10:37,319
basically irrelevant. I mean, I'm sure it's different, you know,

1177
01:10:37,399 --> 01:10:40,640
and even for me, it's different in different situations. Sometimes

1178
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:43,680
people are more helpful or less helpful. But usually what

1179
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,199
it means is you write you you're done, and then

1180
01:10:46,239 --> 01:10:48,079
you send it out to all the co authors. They

1181
01:10:48,199 --> 01:10:52,000
read it. Half of them say, you know, looks great,

1182
01:10:52,239 --> 01:10:55,119
thanks for including me. No changes for me. Half of

1183
01:10:55,159 --> 01:10:57,159
them might say, oh, I made some minor changes and

1184
01:10:57,199 --> 01:10:59,479
they deleted the word the And then a few of

1185
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:01,800
them I have prety significant like I think you should

1186
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:04,319
phrase this differently, I think you should show this figure differently.

1187
01:11:04,399 --> 01:11:08,239
It just depends. And so a lot of times, when

1188
01:11:08,279 --> 01:11:12,800
you develop like a celebrity status like Sabine, you just

1189
01:11:13,039 --> 01:11:16,800
kind of get thrown on papers, and so if you're

1190
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:19,319
thrown on a paper that gets cited three hundred times,

1191
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:23,079
that's three hundred citations that go towards your score, like

1192
01:11:23,159 --> 01:11:25,960
your citation score, even if you had nothing to do

1193
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:27,680
with it. Now, I'm not saying that's the case for her.

1194
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,119
I'm just saying, if you do kind of want to

1195
01:11:30,119 --> 01:11:36,399
get a sense for like how serious someone is as

1196
01:11:36,399 --> 01:11:39,840
a scientist, you can just look like at their papers

1197
01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:42,920
or the last author, the first author, And for her,

1198
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:47,920
I see a ton of last author publications. So that's cool.

1199
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:50,920
So I would I would assume, like, you know, she's

1200
01:11:51,199 --> 01:11:54,359
she I mean, is she like an active She must

1201
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:59,319
be active. She's a researcher at Munich Center for Mathematical Philosophy. Okay,

1202
01:11:59,359 --> 01:12:06,439
so she's not technically a academic. That's interesting, so but

1203
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:09,000
still she's a senior author in a lot of papers,

1204
01:12:11,039 --> 01:12:12,880
very cool papers. I kind of want to read some

1205
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:17,319
of these now. So yeah, Anyway, the point is, you know,

1206
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:19,680
she's not a physicist the same way as Thomas Campbell.

1207
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:23,000
That's how we started, that's how we got here. They're different.

1208
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:31,920
But that's not necessarily like a home run for Sabine,

1209
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:33,640
you know, what I mean, Like you, you pick up

1210
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:39,600
a lot of logical flaws when you're focused on like

1211
01:12:41,079 --> 01:12:47,560
experimentation and consensus thinking. You know, then, I think Thomas

1212
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:53,520
Campbell's approach is pretty interesting. You know now, I don't

1213
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:55,920
know what's real. I mean, if you if you just

1214
01:12:56,000 --> 01:13:01,520
want to talk about what feels intuitively real, I think

1215
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:05,159
his interpretation makes a lot of sense. I don't know.

1216
01:13:06,159 --> 01:13:08,800
I don't really know how I feel about like our

1217
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:12,920
scientific discoveries affecting the way matter and energy will behave

1218
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:14,399
in the future. I don't know if I love that.

1219
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:17,840
I think the double slit experiment is just picking up

1220
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:23,000
on this weird little feature of reality, and same with

1221
01:13:23,239 --> 01:13:26,720
entanglement that I think is much more easily explained by

1222
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:29,960
a virtual world. And so I think we'll leave it there.

1223
01:13:30,039 --> 01:13:33,720
Please email me at God's Eye view Book at gmail

1224
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:37,840
dot com. Let me know how you're doing. Getting lots

1225
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:42,600
of feedback from you, guys. I appreciate it. Thank you

1226
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:45,960
to my core one hundred, the mythical one hundred, the mystical.

1227
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:48,119
I don't want to call you mythical, you're real, the

1228
01:13:48,319 --> 01:13:53,239
mystical one hundred. I need a name for you, you know,

1229
01:13:53,399 --> 01:13:55,880
like the three hundred and sparta we need, like man,

1230
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:58,920
I guess we could just say the one hundred, the

1231
01:13:59,079 --> 01:14:03,840
loyal Legion of one hundred. Thank you for downloading every episode.

1232
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:08,000
Let me know if you have any topics you want

1233
01:14:08,039 --> 01:14:11,000
to cover, any research papers you want me to pick Apart,

1234
01:14:11,079 --> 01:14:16,880
any theological questions we should dive into. You know, we've

1235
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:19,760
been hitting the quantum stuff really hard. Maybe we can

1236
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:24,520
take a detour into history, or religion or philosophy. Anyway,

1237
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:28,479
I appreciate you guys. Stay safe out there, and as always,

1238
01:14:29,119 --> 01:14:29,680
God bless