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No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by Law 22 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:59.920 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for d. 23 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:03.039 Love Host Radio. 24 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:17.040 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 25 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:20.159 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 26 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:27.519 written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 27 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:31.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:35.840 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 29 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:48.920 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening, This is your 30 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:52.359 host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most 31 00:01:52.359 --> 00:01:55.120 Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that. 32 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:58.400 Have written about them. My special guest this evening is 33 00:01:58.439 --> 00:02:01.840 an author named Kathy Scott. This is her sixth true 34 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.079 crime book. Her most recent is on Saint Martin's Press, 35 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:09.159 this one being a Penguin book. This is called The 36 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:14.080 Rough Guide to True Crime, Organized Crime, serial Killers and 37 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:19.280 Expert psychological Profiles. Welcome to the program, and thank you 38 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:22.240 very much for this interview. Kathy Scott, Well, thank you, 39 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.919 happy to be here. Thank you very much. Let me 40 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:27.719 just give for our audience a little bit of the 41 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:30.080 contents of your book, and then we'll go through some 42 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:33.479 of the really fascinating stuff that you've compiled in this 43 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:37.960 Rough Guide to True crimea The first part of the 44 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:42.960 content start with Outlaws, The Money or Your Life, including 45 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:48.479 Billy the Kid, John Dillinger, Pretty Boy, Floyd, Oh, pardon me, 46 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:52.639 pardon me, Yes, Outlaws The Money or Your Life? Sorry, 47 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:56.520 Billy the Kid, John Dillinger, Pretty Boy, Floyd, Babyface, Nelson, 48 00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.479 Bonnie and Clyde, and Mab Barker. The next the section 49 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:04.560 is Heists and Robberies, art Theft, Diamonds and Pearls, cat 50 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:08.599 Burglars and lone Wolves. The next section is kidnapped, White 51 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:12.159 collar crime, deception, the Art of the Khan. Next section 52 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:16.479 is homicide, unsolved murders including Lizzie Borden and Jimmy hoffa 53 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:21.000 section and in that as well. Under homicide is women 54 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:24.680 who kill, including Betty Broderick, which we'll be talking about 55 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:27.680 today a little bit, murder and the Media, the trials 56 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:32.360 of O. J. Simpson, and also under homicide offspring who kill, 57 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:38.319 such as the Menendez Brothers trial. The next section is 58 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:42.960 serial killers, including a Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, Jerome, 59 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:49.280 Henry Brutos, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Glover, the Granny Killer, Ted Kasinski, 60 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:54.520 the Unibomber, Richard the Iceman, Kuklinsky, the Green River Killer, 61 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:59.280 Gary Ridgeway, Doctor Harold Shipman, Doctor of Death, and the 62 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:04.680 Yorkshire Ripper. She also includes another section called organized crime, 63 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:10.360 the US mob, al Capone in the Chicago Outfit, John Gaudi, 64 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:15.120 and the Gambino Family, the Luchese Family. The next section 65 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:19.920 is organized Crime Worldwide, Asian Gangs, Yakuza Triads and Big 66 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:24.800 Circle Boys. Also includes Pablo Escobar and the Madeline Cartel, 67 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:30.600 the Russian Mafia and street gangs, Los Angeles street Gangs, 68 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:35.000 Bloods and Crips and criminal tattoos, Gangs of New York, 69 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:41.720 Westy's Black Spades, and Latin Kings. And she includes another 70 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:46.319 section called Dirty Cops and Bad Apples, the LAPD, the 71 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:50.879 beating of Rodney King, the New York City Police Department, 72 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:56.879 Mafia cops, Louis Epelito and Stephen kra Kappa. And she 73 00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:03.399 also includes in the last section lesser Violations, celebrity, missed demeanor's, obscenity, 74 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:07.399 blasphemy and free speech including the Larry Flint story and 75 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:12.160 also absurd laws and another section called cyber crime. So 76 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:15.480 that is an amazing compilation of true crime. 77 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:20.079 That's my most lengthy book thus far. Was a one 78 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:22.519 hundred and thirty five thousand words. 79 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:25.360 So right now, how many how long did it take 80 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:28.279 you to do this project, specifically from beginning to end, 81 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:30.279 and how many years did it take? 82 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:34.240 Well, probably about a year. I was actually working on 83 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:37.279 another book at the time when my agent at the 84 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:41.480 time came to me and said Penguin had contacted him 85 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:45.000 and they were looking for an author I think one 86 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:47.720 had fallen through or something, and did he have any 87 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:52.160 authors who could pull it out? Another word, somebody who 88 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.000 could stick to it and get it done because it 89 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:57.959 was a lengthy book. And so the good thing is 90 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.560 I didn't have to do a book proposal. And then 91 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:02.600 I got together with the editor and we went back 92 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:07.160 and forth and he had a proposal and he had 93 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:09.279 my books, you know, and that sort of thing, and 94 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:12.920 they chose me, and it was like giving birth to 95 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:14.800 a baby. I mean, it was all of that is 96 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:16.720 sort of a fog right now because I've done two 97 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:21.160 books at the same time. So but but it's I'm 98 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:24.920 really proud of it. I I sweated through this and 99 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:28.959 learned a lot about about some stories I didn't know about. 100 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:32.600 What I tried to do. One thing is is to 101 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:34.639 try to take a different angle with a lot of 102 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:37.879 these stories because so much has been written about a 103 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:42.560 lot of the cases, you know, so the funny things 104 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:43.319 in it as well. 105 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:47.319 Okay, well, tell us what number one, maybe what your 106 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:50.680 criteria was for picking the stories specifically it would be 107 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:54.079 included in the book, and then give us that what 108 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:56.879 was your twist? What was your angle that you approached 109 00:06:57.639 --> 00:06:59.519 the writing of this sort of presenting of these same 110 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:02.439 maybe familiar stories differently, What was your approach? 111 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:05.240 Well, one thing I always try to do is to 112 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:07.879 write about the underdog. That's always, you know, even with 113 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:10.279 the Tupac Sha court case, you know, because he was 114 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:14.040 murdered and nobody seems to be solving the crime. To me, 115 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:18.480 he's an underdog. And and so I do you know, 116 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:24.519 I do go after that sort of thing. And I'm 117 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:30.519 trying to think of a case that Bertha Pippen is 118 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:33.199 one murder case and and this was a family and 119 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:38.959 in Oklahoma, and and her her son who happened to 120 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:42.079 find her body. And this was an elderly woman, I mean, 121 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:44.160 she was in her eighties. It was very very sad, 122 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:47.439 and two teenagers in the neighborhood who she given odd 123 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:51.319 jobs to, and that sort of thing murdered her over 124 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:55.360 something like three dollars and uh hit it, beat her 125 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:59.480 with a baseball bat. It's really horrible and and very 126 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:01.959 very lettle was written about that case. I mean it 127 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.279 barely was a blip, you know, on the radar, and 128 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.879 I found it because I knew somebody who knew the family, 129 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:14.720 and so I went after that. Took quite a bit 130 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:16.959 to get the old articles and stuff because there wasn't 131 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:21.439 anything available, and then I interviewed the son, Jerry Pippen, 132 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:25.040 who happens to be on a radio guy, and it 133 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:27.439 was a fascinating case. And what I wanted to do 134 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:32.120 was kind of give Bertha Pippen a voice. You know, 135 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:34.679 just went out like a light, so sad, and I 136 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:36.879 just wanted to give her a voice. A lot of times, 137 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:39.240 when you write about murder, it's the last time these 138 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:42.320 people are ever going to be written about, because not 139 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:45.759 everybody who's murdered is famous, and so I always take 140 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:48.559 it sort of personally and try to give them a voice. 141 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:51.759 Certainly, So what you mean by underdog as well is 142 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:56.480 that you're taking low profile cases or no profile cases 143 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:00.840 and then taking those stories finding out this kind of care. 144 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:04.320 Yeah, telling people about them. And I think that, you know, 145 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:07.639 and I'm really a person for detail. I mean, I 146 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:10.159 I'm working on a case right now Barbara Cogan out 147 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:14.200 of New York, and I just landed some documents from 148 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.960 court that are like a Christmas present to me when 149 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:20.559 I get things like that, and and I just love 150 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:23.000 the details, and I pour through them, and you know, 151 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:26.559 the documents and to find the details and and so 152 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:28.120 that's what I try to do, is kind of tell 153 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.159 the reader different things, you know, relevant details of course, 154 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:35.600 and something maybe they didn't know before. You know. I 155 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:40.799 think that some of these I spent a lot of time. 156 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:43.039 For example, I've spent a lot of time in New Orleans, 157 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:46.320 you know, after Hurricane Katrina, because I was down there 158 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:48.840 for a rescue group and animal rescue group, and ended 159 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:52.200 up writing Poprins of Katrina, a book about it, which 160 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:54.799 was in depth, you know, reporting, because I had to 161 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:58.759 follow the animals from beginning to end and and and 162 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.559 being down there, I know what the New Orleans Police 163 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:03.879 Department is, and I know they're trying to trying to 164 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:07.039 clean up and change their image, but you know, there 165 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:10.519 I did cover the New Orleans Police Department in this 166 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:13.080 book too. I have a personal interest in it. So 167 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:15.840 some of it was you know, personal, some of it wasn't, 168 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:18.559 you know, And I think people ought to know. You know, 169 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:21.200 when you're going to a city that, you know, like 170 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.000 New Orleans, it's not as as safe necessarily as you 171 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:26.879 think it is. But I love that city, you know. 172 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:28.639 So at the same time, I'm not going to you know, 173 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:30.399 write anything to try to hurt them, but I do 174 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:31.120 write the truth. 175 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:33.759 Sure, Well, that's that's journalism right now. 176 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:36.440 Yeah, yep, well journal as first. 177 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:40.279 Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And that's that's evident with the book 178 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:43.240 that you've put together here and getting let's get back 179 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:45.480 to that. Let's let's start with some of the cases 180 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:49.159 that may be more more interesting to our audience and 181 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:52.879 my audience is as the title of the program is 182 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:56.840 the most Shocking Killers in true crime History. And despite 183 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:01.039 you having some less of violent crime, will say and 184 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:06.080 non serious crime will be better described non serious crime. Yes, 185 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:06.919 you know, there is a. 186 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.039 Serious crime in here. There's some serious crime in. 187 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:12.399 Oh yeah, absolutely, it's it's it's all serious crime. But 188 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:14.480 there is some stuff that is one's in here. 189 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:16.799 Yeah. Well, we tried to balance it with kind of 190 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:18.720 off the wall, and but there are some big cases 191 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:23.080 in here. Sure Pads is one, and and and then 192 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:26.840 the you know, Barbara or I'm sorry, the Betty Broadreck 193 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:32.200 case is an interesting one in the women who kill category. 194 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.320 She was the one who sort of stood out from 195 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:39.879 the other cases in that in that section because they 196 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.360 really were they were either battered wives or or you know, 197 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:45.759 had very mean husbands. And you know, she was a 198 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:46.960 socialite and lawyer. 199 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:50.639 Okay, well, let's let's get back to that just in 200 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:52.000 a little bit. I just want to go back to 201 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.080 a little bit in the beginning. I'm really fascinated with 202 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.879 and I know that some people too that that are 203 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:00.559 true crime fans, are more current history, maybe the seventies 204 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:03.360 or everything from in Cold Blood. But we've had the 205 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.559 same psychopathic killer amongst us for many more years than 206 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.559 just the last forty or fifty. And you talk specifically 207 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.240 about some of these characters of Billy the Kid, Mab Barker, 208 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:16.639 and Bonnie and Clyde, some of the gangsters and some 209 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:19.080 of the outlaws from the Old West. Yeah, maybe can 210 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:21.759 tell us about a couple of the people from the 211 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:24.440 Old West that or maybe even one person from the 212 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.320 Old West that really the story really resonated with you 213 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:30.759 and you felt it necessary to put in your true 214 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.320 crime compilation. Tell us a little bit about one of 215 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:33.919 those stories. 216 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:38.960 Well, I think that everybody knows, you know, you know, 217 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:42.519 Billy the Kid, and John Dillinger and pretty boyd Boy 218 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:45.879 Floyd he was a pretty he was a pretty dark 219 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:50.080 He was a pretty dark character. The thing about these 220 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.120 like Bonnie and Clyde and and and Floyd and those 221 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:59.000 guys in Babyface Nelson, they you know, it was a 222 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:02.840 different time and in America, and and you know when 223 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:05.519 when there was it was fairly easy apparently to just 224 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:09.000 go in and rob a bank. And these guys were 225 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.240 actually they became famous by the news stories, you know 226 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:16.039 that would be written about them. I don't think we 227 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.879 had true crime books back then, did we per se 228 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:23.200 and they and they actually there would be people who 229 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:25.559 would give them a home for the night, or feed 230 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:29.120 them or you know, egg them on, you know, because 231 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:33.360 it was it was almost like living vicariously through them, 232 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:34.919 you know. And they were they were, you know, for 233 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:38.320 the most part, pretty big bad guys. But you know, 234 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:40.519 Ma Barker and those guys, I mean that was a 235 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:45.799 dysfunctional family, you know, and and her boys and she 236 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:47.799 she claimed she didn't know what they were doing, and 237 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:50.720 of course she did, but they just moved from city 238 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:54.320 to city and her boys rob Banks. But I think 239 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:56.799 that's uh, you know, I think that was an interesting 240 00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:59.720 case to kind of look at Ma Barker. You know, 241 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:01.480 we could as the boys are written about her. Sons 242 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:04.279 are written about a lot, but not necessarily her, And 243 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:08.879 I think the things that have been written about her weren't. 244 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:11.759 You know, there's nothing glorious about what they did and 245 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:15.840 nothing glamorous about what they did. You know, these people 246 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:19.200 could barely eat sometimes because they couldn't go anywhere, they 247 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:23.159 couldn't be seen. And I think Bonnie and Clyde, I mean, 248 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:25.840 these guys are all they're they're part of lore. But 249 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:28.360 Bonnie and Clyde too. I think that was an interesting, 250 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:32.159 really an interesting case kind of looking at their their 251 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:34.360 their story. And what I did was I went way 252 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:36.639 back to how they met. They met at a friend's house, 253 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:39.279 you know, and she was just a teenager. And I 254 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:41.440 think that's I think it's interesting just to kind of 255 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.759 go back into the history and kind of give more 256 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.120 than just the standard fear of what you're used to 257 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:49.519 hearing about that those cases, well, what. 258 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:52.799 Was unusual about their their teenage life that you thought 259 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:54.799 maybe was a precursor to some of the crimes they 260 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.960 did later, or or you thought, Jesus, that's unusual that 261 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:00.360 they may have led a life of crime because of 262 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:03.960 their ordinary we'll say teenage life. 263 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:07.000 Well, I think that it was. It was the times, 264 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:10.600 I mean she was she was helping, helping a friend 265 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.879 do housework, or helping a neighbor or whatever, and you 266 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:18.679 know it, there wasn't an opportunity. Excuse me, there wasn't 267 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:21.480 an opportunity for women back then other than to, you know, 268 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:23.600 meet a man and marry him. And then she met 269 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:29.039 Clyde and and he wasn't out for her, and she 270 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:30.960 hooked up with him, and he wasn't out for her, 271 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:33.320 and she got to leave the life you know that 272 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:38.559 she she you know, was in. And so I think 273 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.120 in some cases women hooked up with men back then 274 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:46.159 just just to get them out of the situation they 275 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:47.480 were in and get them out of the town they 276 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:50.320 lived in. And I think that was the case here 277 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:52.360 and then. But I think there was a real attraction 278 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:55.360 between the two and she didn't quite know who he was. 279 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:57.799 She didn't know who was an outlaw. When she hooked 280 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:00.559 up with him, she could have left anytime you wanted to, 281 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:02.879 you know, so she I mean there are those photos 282 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:05.879 of her holding a rifle and smiling and that sort 283 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:08.600 of thing, since she was a part of it. I mean, 284 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:11.159 the women who hook up with these guys say they 285 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:12.480 pretty much know what they're doing. 286 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:15.759 Well, I was going to say, as you were starting 287 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:18.679 to say, I thought, well, geez, these people. There's always 288 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:23.000 been people that are attracted by the dark side. Yeah, 289 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.120 and you throw in romance and good looks. I mean, 290 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:28.120 I think the media has always played a big part 291 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:30.200 in this. You say, well, they probably weren't true crime 292 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:32.919 books in those days, probably not per se, But the 293 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:37.519 newspapers were the medium and people it was well read, 294 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.240 and they were always sensationalistic, and they were always looking 295 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:45.720 for interesting characters. And I think the media's fascination with 296 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:49.360 this has just been reflective of people's fascination with the 297 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:53.039 criminal mind, because it is so deviant and so out 298 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:55.639 of the ordinary compared to the way we may think. 299 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:58.759 And some of it, when people are robbing a bank, 300 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.320 I can see what are some of that there wouldn't 301 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:05.039 be so much distaste for the type of crime as 302 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:08.279 opposed to some of the serial killers and lust and 303 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:12.519 torture killers and baby kidnappers and you know, so yeah, well. 304 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:15.240 You know, I think I think it's you know, people say, 305 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:19.079 you know, crime has become more violent. It's always been violent. 306 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:21.480 I mean they you know, they thought nothing back then 307 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:25.039 of just blowing somebody's head off, you know, and then 308 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:28.359 it would get headlines and the guys were you know, 309 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.000 there were outlaws on the run and sort of you know, 310 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:34.079 made to be heroes in a lot of ways. But 311 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:37.519 I think I don't know that it's become any more violent. 312 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:39.640 I think that we just have more of it because 313 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:43.079 we have more people, and then we hear about We 314 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:45.519 have other ways of hearing about it now too. I mean, 315 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:50.039 the internet is incredible how you hear about things, you know, 316 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:54.200 and then of course they are the copycat crimes. But well, 317 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:56.960 you know, as a newspaper reporter because I was one 318 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:00.680 for a long time, you know, the reader's typical. We'll say, 319 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:02.519 you know, can't you give us the good news? Well, 320 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.519 you know, it's not sexy, and people, you know, people 321 00:18:05.559 --> 00:18:08.799 do give the good news, but you know, crime cells 322 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:12.559 people want to read about it, you know, and sometimes 323 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:14.920 like in this book, you know, I write about kind 324 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:17.279 of the dumb things people did too, And I'll never 325 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:20.359 forget a cop telling me early in my career that, 326 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.119 you know, most of the crooks are stupid, that's why 327 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.240 they get caught. And so you get to write about 328 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.319 kind of the bungling burglaries too. And the FBI has 329 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:32.960 they age it on a little bit because of a 330 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:36.200 lot of cities, the bureaus when there's a bank robbery, 331 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:39.519 the bureaus name them like there's you know, there's the 332 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:43.200 bad breath robber, and there's the you know, pretty face 333 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:47.240 or the ponytail robber. They give them names, the pink shirt, 334 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:49.519 I mean, whatever it is, they give them names, and 335 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:53.720 they sort of help, you know, kind of help sensationalize 336 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:54.839 it a little bit themselves. 337 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:58.440 Now speaking of people too, and you talk about the 338 00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:03.279 media aiming, say a bank robber, but they're more so 339 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:08.079 after the FBI. Pardon me, yeah, but well the FBI. 340 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:14.119 But media will also in a different example, name specific 341 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.359 serial murders like the Green River killer or the Zodiac 342 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.160 or well the Zodiac that was his own name. 343 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:23.720 Did he but up and carries it through? Yeah, And 344 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:24.319 don't you. 345 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.960 Think that's don't you think that's a certain feature that 346 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:30.359 we didn't always have. I mean, Jack the Ripper before 347 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.960 the turn of the century loved and reveled in his 348 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:36.960 notoriety for the killings that he did. But it is 349 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.680 I mean, you've just said that you don't think crime 350 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:42.279 is any more violent, But we do have a more 351 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:47.200 recent phenomena since probably the seventies, which include all of 352 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:49.279 some of the killers that we mentioned and then that 353 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:51.319 I wanted to talk about, and you've included in your 354 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:55.519 book as well, Son of Sam, Jerome, Henry Brutos, Jeffrey Dahmer, 355 00:19:55.640 --> 00:20:00.200 John Glover, Ted Kazinski, Richard Koklinsky, Gary Ridgeway. We the 356 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:05.319 whole palette of different types of serial killers, insane serial killers, 357 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:07.279 psychopathic serial killers. 358 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:12.640 They're all kind of crazy, aren't they they. Kazynski, that's 359 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:17.799 a I mean, he's crazy as alone, you know, and 360 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:19.400 then you look at you look at some of them 361 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:22.640 that are I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer case something I had 362 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.359 a hard time even writing that. That's just such a dark, 363 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:28.920 dark story, you know, the cannibalism and the you know, 364 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:33.400 luring luring young guys into his place and his apartment 365 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:36.119 and some of them teenagers. It was horrible, I mean, 366 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:39.960 such a horrible, you know, ghastly thing. 367 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.440 Well, you know, the court's uh part of his trial 368 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.079 was whether he was insane or not. The courts deemed 369 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:50.680 him sane and he received a penitentiary sentence. But I 370 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:53.599 think that I think a lot of people will look 371 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:56.079 at the types of crimes and say that that's insane. 372 00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:01.240 And of course, you know how you know, how sort 373 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:04.599 of justice was served in that case. You know, if 374 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.079 it's looked at that way was you know, they had 375 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:11.000 him and you know he was in high security for 376 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:14.880 his own safety, right, Well, they led him, they lowered 377 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.319 his security, and then a bunch of guys got him 378 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:18.839 in the shower. 379 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:22.799 Well, he's one of the more reviled criminals ever so. 380 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.480 Served in that case. If anybody you know wanted wanted 381 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:30.680 worse for him, he certainly got it. But yeah, it is, 382 00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:35.000 you know, and the laws are so I mean, I 383 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:38.640 think the you know, I think justice is you sort 384 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.599 of get justice by whatever, you know. The attorneys are. 385 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:44.799 I think that some are better than others, and you know, 386 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:48.559 it's I don't know if that's fair, you know what 387 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:52.279 I mean, because it ends on if somebody gets off, 388 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:54.559 it's it's because they had a better attorney. 389 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:58.720 Well, wouldn't it be much a much different situation if 390 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:02.920 you were had a means to afford your lawyers and 391 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:07.119 had the means to hire the best lawyers as opposed 392 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.799 to being assigned a lawyer from the state. 393 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:13.480 Yeah, I think so. And then it depends on the 394 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:16.200 case too, And you know how good it is. The 395 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:19.039 thing that they do today is they try so hard 396 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:23.000 to just plead everybody out, you know, instead of taking 397 00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.240 them all the way to trial. And I think that's 398 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.640 a really typical thing. And I think some people plead 399 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:30.680 guilty and they're not guilty, and we found that, you know, 400 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:34.519 we found that a lot. But in then other cases, 401 00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:38.160