WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.199 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.359 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:43.679 Good evening from the author of the critically acclaimed true 8 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:48.799 crime account A Killer by Design, the inspiration behind Hulu's 9 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:54.439 original docuseries, Mastermind comes a groundbreaking look into the crucial 10 00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:59.000 role played by expert witnesses in the most high profile 11 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:05.319 criminal cases. Based on doctor Anne Burgess's personal experiences within 12 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:11.040 the criminal justice system. Written through Burgess's singular lens of 13 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:16.200 compassion and lived experience, Expert Witness pulls back the curtain 14 00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:19.400 on some of the biggest cases in the last thirty years, 15 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:24.040 from Bill Cosby to the Menendez Brothers to Larry Nasser, 16 00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:29.079 to reveal the deeply human stories behind the trials that 17 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:34.200 have captivated a nation. The book explores the role of 18 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:39.319 expert witnesses in high stakes court cases, offering first hand 19 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:44.760 accounts and never before seen interviews with attorneys, victims, and offenders. 20 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:50.480 Expert Witness places listeners inside the mind of the nation's 21 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:55.439 most prominent courtroom expert, following Burgess as she takes on 22 00:01:55.439 --> 00:02:01.799 one seismic case after the next. The narrative each case 23 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:05.280 deepens the listener's understanding of the art and science of 24 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:09.800 expert testimony, taking listeners from the Women's movement of the 25 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:14.879 nineteen seventies to the Me Too movement of today, one 26 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:20.719 of the largest social reckonings in recent history. At its core, 27 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:25.919 Expert Witness is a story of empowerment. It's a story 28 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:30.120 of compassion and the ever increasing need for individuals to 29 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.680 stand up and speak truth to power or to popular opinion. 30 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:41.400 And it's ultimately a story of how revolutionary one voice 31 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:46.120 can be. The book that we're featuring this evening is 32 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:52.159 Expert Witness, The Weight of our Testimony when Justice Hangs 33 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:58.639 in the balance, with my special guest, psychiatric nurse, professor 34 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:03.680 and author and Burgess. Thank you very much for this 35 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:08.360 interview and welcome to the program. And Burgess, thank you 36 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:08.879 very much. 37 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:10.000 Dan happy to be here. 38 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:14.840 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this new book, 39 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:19.000 Expert Witness. Let's talk about that. You are a leading 40 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:22.319 forensic and psychiatric nurse who worked with the FBI for 41 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:26.439 over two decades. Currently, you're a professor at the Boston 42 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:31.479 College Canal School of Nursing and you live in Boston, Massachusetts. 43 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:36.520 And this book is co written by Stephen Matthew Constantine. 44 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:41.039 Also you wrote a Killer by Design with Stephen as well. 45 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:43.319 Yes, I did. 46 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.560 In the chapter the Rise of the Expert Witness, you 47 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:50.280 talk about that there's nothing more absolute than a courtroom. 48 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:53.680 It's the biggest stage for the biggest cases, with the 49 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:58.759 highest stakes. What do you write is the purpose of 50 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:01.680 the trial? What is it all? Always come down to 51 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:05.840 tell us about the singular goal that you have and 52 00:04:06.039 --> 00:04:09.719 tell us about the phrase that you've taken as a 53 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:10.800 personal mantra. 54 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:17.839 Yes, well, the purpose in the courtroom is obviously not 55 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:22.120 necessarily obviously, but to seek truth. You have always had 56 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:26.160 a conflict. There are two sides, and they often say 57 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:31.199 very opposite things. So the expert witness and that they 58 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:35.000 can have an expert witness on both sides. So it's 59 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:40.600 a matter of pacing information before a jury that you 60 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:45.839 hope will make a difference. That my goal in bringing 61 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:49.279 it is to bring forward what I call the nursing science. 62 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:53.759 Nursing because that's my background, my discipline. But where are 63 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:58.879 we at and understanding the matter before the court? So 64 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:03.560 that's my main goal there is you've got to you're 65 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:06.560 sworn in. You have to tell the truth, and I 66 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:12.000 tell the truth if you will, from the perspective of 67 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.759 the case that I have been working on. So and 68 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:18.639 it can be for either the defense side, or it 69 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.519 can be for the prosecution side if it's in a 70 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:24.639 criminal matter, or it can be for the plaintiff and 71 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:27.480 for the defense if it's in the civil arena. 72 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:32.199 Tell us how with your background as a psychiatric nurse, 73 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:37.279 how you in the early seventies first came to want 74 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:40.519 to be an expert witness. 75 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:44.319 Okay, I never wanted to be an expert witness. I 76 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.920 didn't really realize in the beginning, way back in the 77 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:52.120 seventies just what that entailed. But I was asked to 78 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:55.399 help in the very first case I had was a 79 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:59.720 great case, and I happened to be speaking at a conference, 80 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.399 and after the conference, the two attorneys came up and 81 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:06.759 said they had this case and would I be interested 82 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:10.480 in looking at it and letting them know what my 83 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:13.759 opinion was. That's really how it started. Then, that was 84 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:18.800 back in nineteen eighty. So I did not realize that 85 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:23.079 this case would necessarily go to court. They don't all 86 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.600 go to court. In fact, many of the civil cases 87 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:29.720 end up being settled. It's called being settled, and so 88 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:31.600 you don't have to go into court, but you always 89 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.800 have to prepare in case it doesn't settle and the 90 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:38.480 two sides need to meet up in this courtroom. So 91 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:41.920 that was my initiation, if you will, back in nineteen 92 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:47.000 eighty and after that, because the issue of rape was 93 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:51.959 becoming quite a front burner type of issue, certainly in 94 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:56.199 the women's movement and for Congress. They had just established 95 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:59.680 a National Center for the Prevention and Control of Rape, 96 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.040 So all of those things were converging at a time 97 00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:07.319 when I was doing had really just done the research 98 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:10.959 on the rape victim and that was with Linda Holmstrom 99 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:12.399 while I was at Boston College. 100 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:16.000 I guess you're talking about the research project that was 101 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:20.639 focused on understanding the emotional and traumatic effects of rape 102 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:21.759 and sexual assault. 103 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.600 That's correct. It was really we started to be the 104 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:28.879 voice for the victims that they didn't have a voice. 105 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:32.639 Nobody was speaking for them. When I say we, that's 106 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:35.879 Linda Holmster on myself, and she knew that was going 107 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:38.560 to be an issue. So that's what we focused on, 108 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:41.519 seeing one hundred and forty six people over a one 109 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.920 year period into a large city hospital to hear about 110 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.800 why they were there with the what is called the 111 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:51.199 chief complaint of rape. 112 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:56.360 You're right that this case with Jane demonstrated many of 113 00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:01.800 the biases and the difficulty in people coming forward, wanting 114 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:05.319 to come forward to and then the prosecution, the dismal 115 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:10.839 prosecution rate of anybody being prosecuted for rape or sexual assault. 116 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:16.279 But you said the things changed culturally back in when 117 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:22.759 Connie Francis, a famous singer, was raped in their own home, 118 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:28.160 So you talk about Jane also being at that apex 119 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:34.000 of the time in culture when people looked at victims 120 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:37.320 of rape and sexual assault much differently. 121 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:42.799 Absolutely, absolutely that was what That was one of the 122 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:46.240 important things in the case with Jane, even her family. 123 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:50.320 It wasn't just citizens, you know, every citizens, but it 124 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:53.720 was the family and couldn't understand why she couldn't get 125 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:56.559 over it. That was the other big part of working 126 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:00.679 with victims, because we followed them and people would can't 127 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:03.799 you just get over this? And we realized that we 128 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:08.360 had something here that was far more than people understood. 129 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:12.320 And that's what we tried to bring forward in my case. 130 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.000 I brought it forward in the courtroom is whenever I 131 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:17.080 had a case and I was called to do it. 132 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:20.519 So tell us a little bit more about Jane's case 133 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:25.960 and in your involvement in the case itself. 134 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.480 Yeah, James's case was very, very instructive for me. It 135 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:32.559 was one of the first of course that and I 136 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:36.559 got the case, not necessarily because of the project we 137 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:39.320 were working on, but because of a detective, a detective 138 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:42.080 Rufo who knew of the work that we were doing 139 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.279 at Boston City Hospital. They had taken Jane to a 140 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:50.399 different hospital and he said that you really need to 141 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:54.440 talk with this person, me who has been working with 142 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:57.399 rape victims, and so he put me in touch. He 143 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:01.200 had returned from Boston back to New Jersey, so we 144 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:05.080 first met over a phone call. But the other important 145 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:08.720 part of Jane's story is because I've looked at and 146 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:11.960 that's what expert witness reports on what has happened to 147 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:16.240 the three men that raped her. Doing a follow up 148 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:20.679 what thirty some years later to see how Boston treated 149 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:25.200 and followed through on a case that was essentially a 150 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:28.639 gang rape. Jane had been just moved into Boston. She 151 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:31.440 was here for a new job. She was all excited, 152 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:34.200 had a new apartment of Beacon Hill, a very very 153 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:37.639 fine area in Boston, and she had friends that were 154 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:42.200 expected to come overs right after Thanksgiving and she was 155 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:45.159 expecting friends. And two o'clock in the afternoon there was 156 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:47.559 a knock on her door and she really thought it 157 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:51.720 was her friends. Opens the door and in March these 158 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:55.720 three young men and for the next couple of hours 159 00:10:55.879 --> 00:11:01.519 put her through a grueling rape and throw her in 160 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:05.000 the closet, threatened that they'll kill her, etc. Et cetera. 161 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:09.960 Then when they leave, she does call the police. The 162 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:13.960 police send their patrol officers over, they take a report, 163 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.600 and they luckily report it right back to the precinct. 164 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.799 Then they send over the detective and what the detective 165 00:11:21.879 --> 00:11:25.440 learns is what solves the case for them. It's something 166 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:28.399 that I learned about. He said as Jane was telling 167 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:32.039 her story that the men called for a cab and 168 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:34.480 he said, do you know what kind of a cab 169 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:38.600 And she said, they said, a brown cab. Well, we 170 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:42.080 happened in the city of Boston. Have cab company that 171 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:46.240 was called Brown and was Brown that did it? He 172 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:50.480 said he had not had that information from the patrol officers. 173 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:53.720 So immediately got on the phone and luckily got the 174 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:58.120 cab driver who remembered the three men taking a cab 175 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.960 and where he dropped them off, and that was the 176 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:02.600 beginning of solving the case. 177 00:12:04.279 --> 00:12:08.639 You did something to literally support Jane and to show 178 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:11.960 her that there were people that believed in her and 179 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:16.399 were ready to stand up and support her. What did 180 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:18.200 you do at this trial? 181 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:22.240 Right? Yeah, at this trial, I was not there as 182 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.039 an expert witness. I was there because I had been 183 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:28.879 working with her and providing some kind of counseling for her, 184 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:32.080 and I realized that this was going to be an 185 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:35.919 important step for her, and I wanted support more than 186 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:38.960 just my support. So I had all of my students 187 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:43.279 at the time, I was teaching a course, and I all, uh, 188 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:46.120 when Jane was there and I was there, and all 189 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:51.600 my students were there sitting very very carefully right in 190 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:54.480 the courtroom. So that was a good experience, not only 191 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:57.919 for me obviously for Jane to have that support, but 192 00:12:57.960 --> 00:12:58.960 the students too. 193 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:03.840 As a result of this trial, what did you decide 194 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:07.840 to do? What did you feel you necessary for you 195 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:08.879 to become. 196 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:13.879 Well? Because of this Jane, I stayed in touch with 197 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:18.519 her and she did move back. She hadn't totally moved out. 198 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:20.720 She was staying with friends, and she would come to 199 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:26.559 my class in dactymology and became So it was support 200 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:32.120 not only in terms of counseling, which I would do individually, 201 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:36.159 but she had an opportunity to hear about other types 202 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:41.039 of victim situations, and she would speak up in class. 203 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:46.279 She told the students about her experience, and I've had 204 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:50.120 her several times come back and talk about her experience, 205 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:53.039 and I think that's a very important learning experience for 206 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:58.799 students to hear from victims directly, because it's rare, certainly 207 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:03.000 back then and even today, that victims will admit that 208 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:05.960 they had an experience of a sexual assault or a 209 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:06.960 rape or whatever. 210 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.799 Let's jes this as an opportunity to stop to hear 211 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:17.720 these messages. Now, you write that you knew that you 212 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:22.519 had to establish yourself as an official expert witness to 213 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:27.799 really help people out like Jane in the future at court. 214 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:33.039 And then you write some time after you had heard 215 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:37.559 about the Menendez murders and you didn't know anything about 216 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.519 it till you got a call from a friend, John Conti, 217 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:46.240 April nineteen ninety. Tell us who he was and what 218 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:47.399 was the nature of the call. 219 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:50.480 Sure, well, John Conti at the time, I knew him 220 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.639 as a colleague. He was at the University of Chicago originally, 221 00:14:55.120 --> 00:15:00.320 and he became the editor of a journal called Journal 222 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.480 of Into Personal Violence. And so I had been working 223 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:05.759 with him around that and we stayed in touch. We 224 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:08.960 would go to conferences, etc. And so he called me 225 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:12.840 one day and started talking about this Menendez case, which 226 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:16.480 I did not know anything about. And he finally said, 227 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:18.879 I think, in desperation, will go down to your local 228 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:21.240 store and get a copy of People magazine and he 229 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:24.600 can read all about it. And I did, and of 230 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:28.120 course People Magazine had their own twists to the case. 231 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:30.799 And he said, if you're interested, I'll give your name 232 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:35.879 to Leslie Abramson, who was the attorney that was monitoring 233 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:40.360 or leading the Eric Menendez. John had already signed on 234 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:45.080 to Lyle Menendez's case, and Leslie was still looking for 235 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.480 an expert on that one. Now by then, of course, 236 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:49.679 this was the nineties, and I had had a fair 237 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:53.039 amount of experience, but certainly not in a high profile 238 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:54.679 case like this turned out to be. 239 00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:59.600 You had to look at this case. Why were you 240 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:03.759 interest did once you found out some details? Well? 241 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:06.519 I was interested because in talking with John, I said, well, 242 00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:09.679 what was the motive? I said, this talks about their 243 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:14.360 greed and their money, wanting money, et cetera. And I said, 244 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:18.000 this sounds like kids that have any money that they want. 245 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:21.840 They had open credit cards and access to money. And 246 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:25.360 that's what John agreed. He said yes, because he couldn't. 247 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:27.559 He was trying to figure out the motive too. So 248 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:32.879 we took in our opinion money was not the primary thing. 249 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:36.720 I said, something like this, where it's a double paraside case, 250 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:43.240 highly unusual that two siblings would murder their parents, both parents. 251 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:47.200 I think there's only a well, maybe one hundred cases 252 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:50.480 total in the whole history of that. So I said, 253 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:53.840 got to be something in the family, something's going on 254 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:59.039 in this family that would cause such violent reaction in 255 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:02.600 these two. And so that's where we began to put 256 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.039 our interest is to find out more about the families. 257 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:09.960 And John actually had he had by that time gone 258 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:13.200 to New Jersey, interviewed many of the cousins and found 259 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:16.279 out that there was a pretty odd kind of way 260 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:20.519 that they treated the brothers, and that was essentially from 261 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:25.519 the father, Jose Menendez. So by the time I started 262 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:30.279 interviewing Eric, I had an idea of a motive certainly 263 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.279 was not just over money. And he said in the 264 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:38.960 first there was a week prior to the shootings that 265 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:44.759 was pivotal, absolutely pivotal in this case. And he said 266 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:48.240 it started on a Tuesday when he had planned to 267 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:53.079 go to uc San Francisco, and the father said, no, 268 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.920 you're going to go to UCLA. It's right here in 269 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.440 town and you can. I'll get you a moped and 270 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.319 you can ride back and forth and you will be 271 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.160 here at night, not going to stay in the dorm. 272 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.039 And that was a jolt for Eric. He thought he 273 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.240 was going to be able to get away. Now. The 274 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.960 brother lyle had had plans. He was leaving in that 275 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:18.720 next week to go back to the East Coast. He 276 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.240 was at Princeton. I think, yeah, at Princeton, and so 277 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:25.079 both I thought it was interesting that both brothers had 278 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.480 plans to lead. When they say, well, why didn't you 279 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:30.920 just leave, you know, the prosecution said that the point 280 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:34.519 was they had planned to leave, but not leave because 281 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:38.160 of exposing any of the of the incense that was 282 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:43.559 going on, but to get away from the family. So 283 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:47.160 that's where we put together and began to find out 284 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:48.359 what was actually going on. 285 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:56.640 It's very interesting that you employed a certain psychological technique 286 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:01.319 in order for you to get Eric to be able 287 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:05.359 to reveal the details of not only before the murder, 288 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:08.559 but during the actual murder itself. 289 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:13.680 Yes, I did. I had used drawings or sketched whatever 290 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.759 you want to call him, primarily with younger people as 291 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:21.240 a way because they have more difficulty expressing themselves or 292 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:23.839 talking at length, so to speak. So I would have 293 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.400 them draw what happened. And it was a way not 294 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:28.720 to lead them in any way. You don't want to 295 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.359 lead them. You don't want to say, well, now, so 296 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:34.440 and so did something to you. Can you draw that? No, 297 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:38.079 just say what happened in such an incident. So I said, 298 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.960 I'm going to try that with Eric, because I've got 299 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.279 to spend all this time with him, and if he 300 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.319 you know, he just I can't tape record and I 301 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:51.880 didn't want to just sit there and take notes. So 302 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:56.119 I brought in some magic markers and paper. I had 303 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.240 them uncuff him. So that he had access to that, 304 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:01.839 and I I said, let's just go through this week 305 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:05.079 that you just told me about, and let's draw it. 306 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:08.079 Have you draw it, and then we can go back 307 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:10.079 and forth. I can say, well, now you said this 308 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.079 happened on Tuesday. Now what happened on Thursday? Or what 309 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:15.480 happened on Wednesday? And then you get to the Sunday, 310 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.680 of course, which is when the shootings occurred. And I 311 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:21.279 was able to use that, and I was amazed at 312 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:26.480 how he drew, not being a part therapist, of course, 313 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:29.440 but I could certainly see that there was a lot 314 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.480 to these drawings. And he did sixteen of them, and 315 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:38.400 they really tell the story of that week just before 316 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:41.880 the shootings. And I felt that that I didn't know 317 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:45.319 whether they would be used in quart or not, and 318 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:49.480 they decided that they wouldn't. I remember Leslie saying, well, 319 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.960 these look to juvenile. They'll make fun of them. And 320 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:55.359 I thought to myself, Well, the point that they look 321 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.599 juvenile is the point, right, that's the main point of 322 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:03.400 how they felt, how regressed they felt in this. And 323 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:09.279 the parents had this looming much exaggerated size compared to 324 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.960 the to the brothers of how he drew them, and 325 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:15.720 so there's a lot in there. I later have had 326 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:18.839 a art therapist look at them because I thought I'm 327 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:21.440 not one, but let's see what she could do, and 328 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:26.319 she really pretty much confirmed. We have since actually run 329 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:31.200 it through chat ID to see what the chat would do, 330 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:35.079 what AI would make of these drawings verbal of course, 331 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:39.400 the verbalization, because he would write on the drawing what 332 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.759 was going on. So we had some very interesting dialogue 333 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:46.799 between he and the brother, the mother, the father. 334 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:53.079 You were hired to try to explain how these people 335 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:57.440 could kill their parents, regardless of anything, but you also 336 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:03.039 wanted to explain rape trauma syndrome, or Leslie wanted you 337 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:07.599 to explain rape trauma syndrome. So how with the rape 338 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:11.880 trauma syndrome, how do you explain how these people were 339 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:14.240 able to kill their parents and why? 340 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:18.119 Sure, Well, by the time of the trial, which would 341 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:22.880 now be ninety I think nineteen ninety two, the shootings 342 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:27.279 occurred in eighteen nineteen eighty nine, so it was about 343 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:31.000 three years later. But what was going on then and 344 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:34.400 that I was involved in with my team, is of 345 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:37.319 the decade of the Brain is what they called it. 346 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.720 A lot of research money was going into understanding the 347 00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:45.039 brain and how it worked, especially in high stress situations. 348 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:47.759 So what I was able to do is to take 349 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:51.440 we actually had a paper out just about that time 350 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:55.039 to explain where in the brain it's called the Olympic 351 00:22:55.160 --> 00:23:01.119 system houses the important areas that control your thinking, that 352 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:04.680 control your emotion, that can control a lot of what 353 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:10.240 is important in terms of actions. And so I use 354 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:15.720 that to explain the new research. And I also they 355 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:20.440 were doing the study on the apple c snail. Now 356 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:24.119 I took a lot of backlash on that, but it 357 00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:29.960 proved itself because it has a very similar nervous system 358 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:34.319 as we have, and they were doing very interesting exhibit 359 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.559 or research on that. So I use that to explain 360 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:40.599 why and how they were finding these areas in the 361 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:46.039 brain and the Olympic system that could account for people's actions. 362 00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:48.839 And that's what I explained, the Olympic system. I also 363 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.440 use the analogy to a computer of how information goes 364 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:56.480 in and what happens when it doesn't get processed, when 365 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:59.559 it doesn't get quote, if you will, using a word 366 00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:04.079 of process, and so I use those two. I have 367 00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:08.640 used those in other times that I've testified, and if 368 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:11.720 you read my trial testimony, of course it's in there. 369 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:15.400 You say that there was a parallel trial going on 370 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:23.039 of sorts, with the court, TV playboy reporter Robert rand 371 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:28.640 taking the side of the prosecution and Dennis Dunne taking 372 00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:32.480 the sign of the defense, and so opposing views on 373 00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:36.000 this trial. While the trial was going on. 374 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:39.799 Yes, there was a lot of media obviously a lot 375 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:45.240 of media coverage and the LA whichever times. I don't 376 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:47.400 know which paper it was, but they had these two 377 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:52.720 opposite sides, and I'll never forget the dominic. Dunn took 378 00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:56.319 me aside after I was testifying and said he wanted 379 00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:59.519 to talk with me because he was beginning to maybe 380 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:04.000 doubt some of his position that this was all for 381 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:06.240 money and greed and that kind of thing, and he 382 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:10.200 was listening rather intently to the testimony about what would 383 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:14.279 cause someone to be in such fear. What I was 384 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:17.920 trying to explain, and the rape trauma syndrome does, is 385 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:22.319 that the reaction that victims have to a threatening situation 386 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:27.160 of fear is what can produce them to act in 387 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:32.519 ways that seemed counterintuitive. So it was unfortunately what happened 388 00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:37.200 is another high profile case the came up and so 389 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:39.000 he didn't get it we never got a chance to 390 00:25:39.079 --> 00:25:41.880 exchange how that meeting that he wanted to have, but 391 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:43.880 I always thought it was interesting that he did approach 392 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:44.519 me and want. 393 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:49.200 To talk about it. You write about the verdict in 394 00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:56.519 this case after Eric testifies. The jury is split in 395 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:00.480 believing Eric's testimony. Tell us about that, Yes. 396 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:04.160 And I got that information from Hazel Thornton. Hazel Thornton 397 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:07.720 was number eight as a juror in the first men 398 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:12.759 in this trial Eric's team. And so she said that 399 00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:14.640 what they did and when they went into the jury 400 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.920 room for the very first time, she said, it was 401 00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:20.799