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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekinona Show.

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If you're watching the video, you probably recognize that face. Aaron,

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how are you doing?

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Speaker 2: What's going on? Man?

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Speaker 1: We missed you in Texas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, I am a slaved capitalism and I love it.

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Speaker 1: Oh and Carden's show up either, so.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, no excuse.

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Speaker 1: Oh I'm I'm livid with that person, but.

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Speaker 2: So very busy rotating shapes.

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Speaker 1: So I asked you to do this with me. Imperium

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Press put this out. I think it was six months

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ago or so, and Joseph de maiestra in in letters

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that he's sending to a Russian aristocrat and we don't

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even know who the Russian aristocrat is, which is really cool.

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I actually like that he defends ends the Spanish Inquisition.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's something that you know, I think before the

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before the Holocaust, there was the Spanish Inquisition as something

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that ship libs can point to as to why we

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need a secular society and the dangers of theocracy. And uh,

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going through this first letter that we're about to read it, uh,

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it pretty much confirmed my suspicion that, like most things

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that are shoved down our throat, there's a there's a

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pretty good argument for some revisionism. Yep, yep.

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Speaker 1: So uh, Before we do that, I wanted to give

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a little background for people who don't know Joseph de Maistra.

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I'll read what what was put in Imperium Presses, volume

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one of his major works in the front, and then

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I'll read a little bit from Wikipedia, because I looked

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at Wikipedia and it's pretty good too. What might get

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Imperium press put in here was that Josein Demestra was

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one of the strongest voices in the eighteenth and nineteenth

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century reaction. In some places you'll read they'll call him

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the original reactionary, like the first reactionary, probably because he's

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a Frenchman and in his lifetime, in his adult life,

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the French Revolution happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that would change some minds. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So. Born into minor savoyored nobility in seventeen fifty three,

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he enjoyed a distinguished law career until he fred fled

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the French Republic's annexation, whereupon he acted as chief magistrate

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to Charles Emmanuel's Sardinian court, later attaining a number of

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high offices. Maestra distinguished himself as a political commentator in

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considerations on France, publishing many works over his life to

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great acclaim, particularly the posthumous Saint Petersburg Dialogues. So when

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you come over to Wikipedia says he was a Savoyard philosopher, writer, lawyer,

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diplomat who advocated social hierarchy and monarchy in the period

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immediately following the French Revolutions. A polymath, many men of

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his day would have end of his statue would have

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had to have been polymouth. Despite his close personal and

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intellectual ties with France, Maiestra was throughout his life a

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subject of the Kingdom of Sardinia, where he served as

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a member of the Savoy Senate seventeen eighty seven seventeen

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ninety two, Ambassador to Russia eighteen oh three eighteen seventeen,

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and Minister to the Court of Turin eighteen seventy one

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to eighteen twenty one. A key figure of the counter

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Enlightenment and a precursor of Romanticism, he regarded monarchy and

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regarded monarchy both as a divinely sanctioned institution and as

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the only stable form of government. So I'm sure doctor

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Happa probably uh I would agree with the maestro on

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a few things.

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Speaker 2: Is uh, Hapa is not Catholic, is he?

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Speaker 1: Let's see, he's German. He could be a lot of things. Yeah,

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so all right, so let's get into this. So they're

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in this in this edition it's called uh on the

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Spanish Inquisition that Imperium Press put out. It has five

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letters that Demaiestra wrote to a Russian nobleman and he

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seeks to defend the Spanish Inquisition, which pologism. Yeah, which

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seems would seem insane to some people what it did

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to me at first. Yeah, So all right, let's get

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this shared, it up on the screen. All right, I'm

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gonna start reading, and as always, oh, I should mention this.

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I think you'll like this. I mean, contacted two separate times,

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once by the same person twice that if I'm going

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to do these readings, I should take some lessons. Oh yeah,

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on how to you know, on how to read these

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things properly. And one point was you mispronounced some things

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and you stumble on something. I'm gonna do that on purpose.

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Now I'm just going to do it on purpose. You

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do not know me. I am not a fucking aristocrat.

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I am from the freaking streets of the Bronx. Shut

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the fuck up, respectfully. Not to the lady. I'm not

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saying that to the lady who sent me the letter.

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She was very nice, very nice. The other gentleman. The

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gentleman is like to write an article about you, all right, whatever, dude, Nope,

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you read good I read good enough, all right, So

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let's start reading this. The first letter de Maestra writes

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to defend the Spanish Inquisition to a Russian nobleman. I've

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had the satisfaction of exciting both your interest and your

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astonishment in the course of our conversations on the subject

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of the Inquisition. You have therefore, for your own use

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and convenience, requested me to commit to writing the different

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reflections which I have presented to you concerning this celebrated institution.

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With this request, I now most willingly with this request,

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I now most willingly comply. Those two people are just

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screaming right now, just screaming at me, so let me

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start that again. With this request, I now most willingly comply,

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and I will take this opportunity to collect in place

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before you a certain number of observations and authorities which

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I could have adduced in the course of a simple conversation.

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Without any other preface than this, I shall begin my

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dissertation with the history of the awful tribunal.

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Speaker 2: Is setting us up to knock us down.

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Speaker 1: Yep, though he is a lawyer. I remember having remarked

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to you in general terms that one of the most

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honorable attestations in favor of the inquisition is the official

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report itself of the Philosophical Cortes, which in the year

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eighteen twelve suppressed this tribunal, but which, by the exercise

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of their brief and arbitrary power, contrived to satisfy nobody

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but themselves. The Cortes is basically the the I mean

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Congress of Spain historically, the I mean, yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Thought it was the judiciary body.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean, it's it's more than that, though,

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it's it's it's like the government. But it was even

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a government in the time of I mean, it was

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a government during the Spanish Civil War. They speak of

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the courts Eus all the time, but the this was

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like the I guess, the parliamentary bureau to the Crown

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at the time. So if you consider the character and

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the spirit of this assembly, but particularly of its own

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of its committee which drew up the decree of suppression.

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You cannot but own that any acknowledgment in favor of

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the Inquisition coming from such authority is itself a circumstance

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which admits of no reasonable reply. Certain modern unbelievers, the

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echoes of ignorance and illiberality, have contended, have a contended

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that Saint Dominic was the author and founder of the Inquisition,

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and for this reason they have not failed declaiming against

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him with all the fury of their indignation. Now, the

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fact is that Saint Dominic neither ever exercised any act

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of an inquisitor, nor had he anything to do with

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the inquisition. The origin of the Inquisition is dated from

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the Council of Verona in the year eleven eighty four,

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and the superintendence of it was confided to the Order

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of the Dominicans only in the year twelve thirty three,

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that is at least twelve years after the death of

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Saint Dominic.

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Speaker 2: Yep, the prons deboomed.

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Speaker 1: Oh they get debooked. Well, it gets it gets worse

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for them as this goes along. Yes, in the twelfth Yeah,

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and the atheists in the twelfth century. The heresy of

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the Manicheans, who in our times are better known under

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the name albe I looked up Albigens Albigensis, yeah, Albigensis, yeah,

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Albigenzis appeared to threaten both the peace of the church

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and the stability of the state. For the security therefore

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of both, it was deemed necessary to send among them

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certain ecclesiastical commissioners to inquire after the guilty. These commissioners

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call themselves Inquisitors, and their institution was approved by Innocent

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the Third in the year twelve four. You're already hear

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people are probably already screaming. He was the one of

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the worst popes ever.

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Speaker 2: Got to disagree with you, there, bud.

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Speaker 1: At first, the Dominicans acted as delegates from the Pope

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and his legates, As the Inquisition was then but an

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appendage to their preaching. They derived from this their principal

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function the name of the preaching Friars, a name which

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they have always retained. Like all institutions which are destined

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to produce any great effects, the Inquisition was, by no

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means in its commencement the powerful instrument which subse which

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subsequently it became. These kinds of inquisitions, all of them

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grow and establish themselves, one knows not how called in

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and introduced by circumstances. Opinion, in the first instance, approves

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of them ere long. Authority, sensible of the advantages it

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may derive from them, sanctions them, and models them into

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form and order. For these reasons, it is not an

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easy matter to assign the precisely fixed epoch of the Inquisition, which,

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from feeble beginnings advanced gradually towards its full dimensions, which

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is the case with everything that is destined to last.

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Excuse me, however, this is what may, with confidence be

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asserted that the Inquisition, properly so called, with all its

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attributes and its real character, was never legally established before

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the year twelve thirty three, in virtue of the bull

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illhumany generis of Gregory the ninth, addressed April the twenty

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fourth to the Provincial to the Provincial of Toulouse. While moreover,

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it is equally uncontestable that the first inquisitors opposed no

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other arms to the growing heresy save those of prayer, patience,

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and instruction.

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Speaker 2: So this is kind of multifasted. So he's basically saying

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that the Acquisition as it first began officially, was purely

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to investigate the guilt, to determine the guilt of people

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that were a threat to the Spanish state and the

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Spanish Church, the Catholic Church. If you were a Spaniard

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in Spain, you had to be Catholic in order to

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be considered a Spain. If you were something other than

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a Spanish Catholic and you were doing something bad, then

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that was a direct attack on the state or the

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church and the pope. It was in the Pope's interest

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to see what was going on, and he was very

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careful to state there at the end that you know,

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these inquisitors, uh, they and he goes on to in

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this letter make great pains to say that the inquisitors

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were never, whenever the ones initiating the violence, whenever the

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ones advocating any type of corporal punishment or capital punishment.

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And you know this is it was merely an investigative

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tool by the Pope at first. Yeah, yep, yeah, and

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its finding mission.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it grows to be a lot more. We'll get

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to for an ANSL eventually.

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Speaker 2: So if we were I also kind of gleaned it

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gleaned this little thought thought process from this paragraph. What

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stage of the inquisition are we in right now? Are

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we in the nonviolent stage when we commit our hereses? Yeah?

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Or are we a little more advanced.

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Speaker 1: I think we're a little more advanced.

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Speaker 2: So we're we're probably in like the thirteen to fourteen

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hundreds Spain. Yeah, we're not quite burning people to steak yet,

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but it's.

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Speaker 1: Getting there early fourteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Allow me, sir, to make here just one passing observation.

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It is this that it is always wrong and injudicious

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to conf found the character, or, if I may say so,

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express it, the primitive spirit of any institution, with the

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changes in variations, which circumstances and the ones and passions

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of men compel it to undergo in the process of time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's hard to swallow. Yeah, that's basically saying

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you can't apply the law of unintended consequences.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, of its own name.

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Speaker 2: He's a fellow Catholic, so I'll buy it for now.

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I'm willing to hear about.

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Speaker 1: Of its own nature. The inquisition is a good, mild

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and conservative tribunal.

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Speaker 2: All right, he's won me.

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Speaker 1: You're back, yep. Such, in fact, is the universal the

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unvarying and the indelible character of every ecclesiastical institution, such

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as you cannot but have observed is the case at

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Rome and such Also you will equally find is the

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case wherever the Church commands. But should the civil power

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adopting this institution think proper for its own security to

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render it more severe? The Church, then, in this case,

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is no longer responsible for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. How many examples can you think of where let's say,

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the private sector comes out with a new technology and

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then you know, the state sweeps in and starts using

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it for nefarious purposes. Yeah, or or bad just bad

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actors in general. Many such cases. So he's basically saying,

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it's it's not the it's it's not the originator's fault

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that his idea gets used for nefarious purposes. I don't

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know how I feel about that, but uh yeah, we'll

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keep going.

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Speaker 1: In some good parts here. Toward the end of the

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fifteenth century, the prevalence and power of the Jews were

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so great in Spain, and Judaism had everyone where spread

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and fixed the truth so deeply as absolutely to threaten

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the destruction both of the national religion and of the

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national prosperity. The riches of the Jews quoted says the

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Annals of that period, their influence, their alliances with most

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illustrious families of the monarchy were circumstances which rendered them

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infinitely formidable. They really formed a nation within a nation.

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Many many such case. Doesn't sound like them, many such cases.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean the Iberian Peninsula after the Reconquista,

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as as I learned from Thomas seven seven to seven,

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was just a hodgepodge of different power centers, the foremost

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of which was the Spanish, you know, the Spanish monarchy,

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and then the Jews.

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Speaker 1: In addition to these dangers resulting from the power or

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in influence of the Jews, there came in also to

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augment them, and to augment them frightfully, the growth and

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propagation of Mohammed Mohammadenism. I always love that word, Mohammedanism.

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The tree in Spain had been shivered and blown down,

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but its roots still lived. The question therefore was to

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ascertain whether there should still exist such a thing as

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a Spanish nation, or whether Judaism and Islamism should possess

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and divide between themselves its rich and beautiful provinces. That is,

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whether superstition, despotism, and barbarity should triumph over the piety,

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the liberty, and then happiness of mankind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, when you're trying to form a national identity,

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you can't have multiple power centers that have adversarial interest

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to you, especially when you're you just reconquered the Iberian

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Peninsula and your grip on power is tenuous at best.

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What do you have to do? And you have to

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you have to subdue those other power centers.

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Speaker 1: When you're trying to form a covenant community.

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Speaker 2: Or just a community. Yes, I mean you could apply

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this to your local school board election. There are people

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that want to read books about gay pornography to your kids.

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You have to subdue them.

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Speaker 1: Like the Jews were at this time nearly the masters

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of Spain, and there existed between them and the Catholic

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body a mutual and mortal hatred. The Cortes therefore now

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demanded the introduction of severe and coercive measures against them.

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In thirteen ninety one, they rebelled and multitudes of them perished.

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As however, the danger was every day increasing. Ferdinand, urnamed

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the Catholic, conceived that in order to save Spain. Nothing

283
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would contribute more effectual effectually than the Inquisition. To this.

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Isabella at first made strong objection, but at length she

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was induced to consent, and Sixtus to fourth in the

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year fourteen seventy eight, issued out the Bowls of Institution.

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Speaker 2: All right, so yeah, it started off as ecclesiastical. The

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civil authorities said, hey, we could use this to tighten

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our grip and get rid of our enemies. So we're

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going to We're going to kind of mesh the two together.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember if he talks about it in this

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letter or coming letters, but basically one of their main

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inquisitions was to there was a point where the Spanish

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the court has said you either convert to Catholicism or

295
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you get kicked out. Said that to the Jews, said

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that to the.

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Speaker 2: Isis And that was the Cortes, not the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: Right, it was the Cortes that said that. And so

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what they did was, I got to the point where

300
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there was still a lot of buckery going on. So

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they said, we want the inquisitors to be able to

302
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question to make sure their conversion and their practice was genuine.

303
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And from what I understand, they were given I think

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we'll go over. They were given ample opportunity to stay

305
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up front. Yes, I've been faking. I'm going to leave

306
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the country, or I'm going to repent and I'm going

307
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to convert. But many decided that they were going to

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fight against this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or keep lying again, completely surprised.

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Speaker 1: Permit me again, my lord, before I proceed any farther,

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to suggest to your consideration another important observation. It is

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this that never can any great political disorder, but above all,

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any violent attack upon the body of the state be

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prevented or repelled, but by the adoption of means alike

315
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violent and energetic. Energetic is a good word.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, he's He's absolutely right. And what I

317
00:22:21,079 --> 00:22:25,079
what I gleaned from this is, you know, whenever, whenever

318
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,119
an institution is threatened, especially when force gets involved, that

319
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force is met with equal and opposite energy in order

320
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to contain that threat. So to apply that to today,

321
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:46,799
what forces that truly threaten uh the state or you know,

322
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wol corporations or whatever whatever you want to what like

323
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name name an institution, what forces are threatening them? And

324
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how much energy is being put into combating that. Because

325
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:07,480
I don't think they view, Let's say, Uh, joggers and

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scholars and uh people that might push push women onto

327
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subway tracks. Uh, they're not fighting them too hard, so

328
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they must not be a threat to whoever whoever is

329
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in charge their interests because they're not combating them with

330
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the equal energy that the joggers are. You know, the

331
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the joggers kinetic force is pushing the lady onto the

332
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third rail.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not only isn't it a threat to them, but

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it can also be used by them.

335
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Speaker 2: Yeah absolutely, yep. So if you're trying to measure like

336
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what is a threat to the state, look at what

337
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they're really cracking down.

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Speaker 1: On mm hm, the family of the church.

339
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Speaker 2: And yeah, and how much energy is being used in

340
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that crackdown. And that's why I'm kind of not I'm

341
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not in a collapsitarian mindset anymore, because they're I don't

342
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think they're exercising as much energy as they could be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which is why it's not guaranteed that they're

344
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going to win.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yep, whether due doing competence or miscalculation, or

346
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the fact that we're just we're just not resisting that much.

347
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

348
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Speaker 1: This is one of the most incontestable axioms in the

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code of politics in all real and imminent dangers. The

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rule of Roman prudence, let the consuls see it, see

351
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to it that the state receive no harm. Is the

352
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:41,200
dictate of enlightened policy. Yes, that's just yeah.

353
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Speaker 2: I got a little ahead of myself, but that's the

354
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quote that kind of got me thinking.

355
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Speaker 1: In regard of the methods to be employed or actually

356
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employed on such occasions, the best are those, I of

357
00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:59,440
course exclude crime and injustice. The best are those which succeed.

358
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If you could kind ard argue with that, if you

359
00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:12,000
consider only the severities of Torquemada, without calculating the evils

360
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which they prevented, you in this case cease to reason.

361
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I love the way the way he writes is amazing,

362
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It really is.

363
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Speaker 2: That is pretty good.

364
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Speaker 1: Wherefore, let us constantly bear in mind this fundamental truth

365
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,839
that the Inquisition, in its origin, was an institution demanded

366
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,359
and established by the Kings of Spain under very difficult

367
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and extraordinary circumstances. This is expressly acknowledged by the Committee

368
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,599
of the Cortes, and the reason which that assembly assigns

369
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for its suppression is simply the consideration that, as circumstances

370
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are now changed, so the inquisition is now no longer necessary.

371
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I think some people in the thirty eighteen thirties would.

372
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 2: Have yeah, are you knowing what they know? Now? This

373
00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:10,559
was like right before the revolutions of eighteen forty eight

374
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and the Paris Commune and all the fun stuff really

375
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:15,799
popping off.

376
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Speaker 1: People have often expressed their surprise at seeing the inquisitors overload,

377
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:29,079
overload and accused person with a multiplicity of questions in

378
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,039
order to ascertain the fact whether or not in his

379
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,480
genealogy he retained any portion or drop of Jewish or

380
00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:41,279
Mohammedan blood. What matters it, they say, to know who

381
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,519
was the grandfather or the great grandfather of the accused?

382
00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:50,039
What matters it? It at that time mattered greatly because

383
00:26:50,079 --> 00:26:55,200
both of the prescribed races, being still intimately connected and

384
00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:58,880
allied with the great families of the state, must necessarily

385
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,119
either have trembled or have created terror.

386
00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:08,319
Speaker 2: So even back then they recognize that ethnicities have in

387
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:14,160
group preference. Shocking. Yeah, yep, he's trying to explain in

388
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,839
group preference they have it.

389
00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is bad enough if you have to if

390
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,119
the Spanish have to explain it to themselves.

391
00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:26,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, well at that time, at the time of the Inquisition,

392
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,559
the Catholics had in group preference too, So that's what

393
00:27:29,599 --> 00:27:32,160
made it, you know, a dialectic battle.

394
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,319
Speaker 1: Under these circumstances, it became a concern of prudence to

395
00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:40,680
strike and alarm the imagination by constantly holding out the

396
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,519
threat of the anathema attached to the suspicion of Judaism

397
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:49,359
and Mohammedanism. It is a great mistake to suppose that

398
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,039
in order to get rid of a powerful enemy it

399
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,400
suffices always merely to arrest him. You must subdue him

400
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,079
or you have done nothing.

401
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,559
Speaker 2: Yep. I hinted at that at the conversation about you know,

402
00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:06,359
the school board, the school board candidate that wants to

403
00:28:06,519 --> 00:28:09,720
read gay porn into your kids. It's not simply enough

404
00:28:09,759 --> 00:28:12,440
to get rid of them. You need to subdue them

405
00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:15,960
and make sure that they're never a threat again. Yeah,

406
00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:21,839
getting arrested whatever, I mean, it sucks, But like oftentimes

407
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,400
they make a martyr out of you.

408
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,079
Speaker 1: A Malcolm X quote comes to mind. With the exception

409
00:28:31,559 --> 00:28:35,039
of a small number of enlightened individuals, you hardly ever

410
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,079
in society meet with a person who, speaking of the Inquisition,

411
00:28:39,799 --> 00:28:45,039
is not impressed with three capital errors, and these so

412
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,119
fast riveted to the mind as Nazi yield to the

413
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:55,160
very plainest demonstrations. For example, the public everywhere believe that

414
00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,519
the Inquisition is a purely ecclesiastical tribunal, a notion which

415
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,640
in the first place is false. Secondly, they believe that

416
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,400
the ecclesiastics who sit in this tribunal condemned certain accused

417
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:15,359
criminals to death. This again is false. Thirdly, they believe

418
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,880
that the tribunal condemns men for entertaining mere simple opinions.

419
00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:26,720
This too is another falsehood. The tribunal, then, of the Inquisition,

420
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,880
is purely and completely royal. It is the king alone

421
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,759
who appoints the Inquisitor General, and the Inquisitor General, in

422
00:29:35,839 --> 00:29:40,319
his turn, nominates the particular inquisitors, subject to the approval

423
00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:40,839
of the King.

424
00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:45,279
Speaker 2: So got just to stop you for a second, all

425
00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:50,680
of those things that he listed, I myself was under

426
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,400
the impression of being true that the Spanish Inquisition was

427
00:29:54,799 --> 00:29:57,640
headed up by the Catholic Church. Maybe the crown was

428
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,279
involved a little bit, but it was all the Catholic

429
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:05,559
Church that priests condemned people to death, and that you know,

430
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,119
they could condemn you to death for very little reason.

431
00:30:10,759 --> 00:30:13,559
Speaker 1: Well, not to mention you could we could throw a

432
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,599
fourth one on there. That the priests actually carried out

433
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,799
the commission of the of the acts.

434
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,319
Speaker 2: Heavily implied, yeah, the entire time, Like what little bit

435
00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:26,960
I've learned about it in high school or whatever. Heavily

436
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,000
implied that the Catholic Church were the axe swingers.

437
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: And the Inquisitor General, in his turn, nominates to particular

438
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,599
inquisitors subject to the approval of the King. The constitutional

439
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,759
rules and Order of the Tribunal were drawn up and

440
00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:45,799
published in the year fourteen eighty four by Cardinal Torquemada,

441
00:30:46,279 --> 00:30:52,599
in concert with the King the Inferior. The inferior inquisitors

442
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,920
possessed no power to do anything without the approbation of

443
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,680
the Grand Inquisitor. Neither could the latter do aught without

444
00:30:59,759 --> 00:31:04,680
the a concurrence and sanction of the Supreme Council. This

445
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,519
council was not established by any bull of the Pope,

446
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,559
so that in the case of the general inquisitors charged

447
00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:14,519
becoming vacant, the members of the Tribunal proceeded to act alone,

448
00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:18,480
not as ecclesiastical but as royal judges.

449
00:31:20,519 --> 00:31:24,799
Speaker 2: So the formal structure of the Inquisition really was headed

450
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:30,000
up by the Spanish Crown's that's what I gather from that,

451
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,319
Like all of those layers of you know, judiciary and

452
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,519
investigation and the processes that they abide by and who

453
00:31:39,599 --> 00:31:42,279
answers to who, that really was formed by the Crown

454
00:31:42,599 --> 00:31:48,839
and or at least the Crown had approval authority over

455
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,920
pretty much everything. That's what That's what I gather from that.

456
00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were not going to act unless the Crown,

457
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,279
unless the Crown told them to. They were just they're

458
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,119
basically an advisory board that did strenuous interviews.

459
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, a special investigator that just makes recommendations.

460
00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: The Inquisitor General, in virtue of the bulls of the

461
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,680
sovereign Pontiff, and the King in virtue of his royal prerogatives,

462
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,039
constitute the authority which has always regulated the tribunals of

463
00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:28,759
the Inquisition. These tribunals are thus at once ecclesiastical and royal,

464
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,839
so that on the supposition of one or other of

465
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,759
the two powers receiving the actions of these tribunals would

466
00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:40,920
in such case be necessarily suspended. The Committee of the

467
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,759
Cortes and their report have thought proper to represent the

468
00:32:44,799 --> 00:32:48,240
two powers as in a state of equilibrium in the

469
00:32:48,279 --> 00:32:52,720
tribunals of the Inquisition. But no one surely can be

470
00:32:52,839 --> 00:32:56,440
the dupe of such misrepresentation, or of the falsehood of

471
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,960
this pretended equilibrium. The inquisition is purely a royal instrument,

472
00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:06,000
completely and exclusively under the control of the King, and

473
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,440
powerless to do evil save through the fault of his ministers.

474
00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:17,119
If the proceedings in any cause are not regular, or

475
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,279
the proofs not clear, the king's counselors can always where

476
00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:24,400
there is a question of capital punishments at once and

477
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,920
by one word, a null the whole process. Neither religion,

478
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,079
nor neither religion nor the priesthood have in such cases

479
00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:39,839
anything at all to do in the concern. If unhappily

480
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,599
it do so chance that the accused is punished without

481
00:33:44,599 --> 00:33:48,319
being guilty, the fault and the injustice would be would

482
00:33:48,319 --> 00:33:51,640
then be either in the King, whose laws had unjustly

483
00:33:51,759 --> 00:33:55,599
ordained the punishment, or else in the magistrates who unjustly

484
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,000
inflicted it. But of this I will cite the proofs hereafter.

485
00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:05,119
Speaker 2: So it sounds a lot like he's trying to head

486
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,440
off a lot of criticism of the Catholic Church. That

487
00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:12,360
was probably happening at his time as the Inquisition was ending,

488
00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:17,639
and I'm sure that the Spanish civil authorities were all

489
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,639
too willing to let them take the brunt of the

490
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:22,360
bad pr.

491
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: More than willing. Yeah, okay, you may remark, my lord,

492
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:35,039
that among the numberless declamations which have been published against

493
00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:38,440
the Inquisition, you never trace so much as one word

494
00:34:38,519 --> 00:34:43,639
respecting this distinctive character the tribunal, a circumstance, however, which

495
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,079
in justice all writers on the subject ought essentially to

496
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:53,400
have remarked. Thus. Voltaire, for example, in a hundred passages

497
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,559
of his work, describes a tribunal as the instrument exclusively

498
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:03,199
of priestly cruelty and in justice. This is quoting Voltaire,

499
00:35:03,559 --> 00:35:08,079
This bloody tribunal, that frightful monument of Monkish power, which

500
00:35:08,119 --> 00:35:12,599
Spain has received, but which she herself abores, which avenges

501
00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:16,679
the altars but dishonors them, which all covered with blood,

502
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,920
encircled by flames, slaughters mortals with a sacred sword.

503
00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks Valtaire. Original.

504
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: Shoot, it's like it's just like a a freaking a

505
00:35:29,039 --> 00:35:30,599
nineteen year old libertarian.

506
00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, a cringe fedora wearing atheists. Yeah, I mean it's

507
00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:40,960
same thing. It sounds a lot like the Spanish civil

508
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,519
authorities were more than happy to shovel the blame on

509
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:49,360
the Church, and even though they have a long history

510
00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:54,239
and a structural history of them actually being the ones

511
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,679
that were doing the burning and act swinging and beheading.

512
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: Now, this tribunal, although thus frightfully depicted, is nevertheless the

513
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,559
tribunal of a nation distinguished for its wisdom, its moderation,

514
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,400
and its high sense of honor. This is all true

515
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:18,360
by the way fifteen sixteenth and seventeenth century Spain is considered,

516
00:36:18,599 --> 00:36:23,239
I mean, the way Spangler talks about it in Prussianism

517
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,800
and Socialism, he just he can't say enough good things

518
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,679
about about fifteen sixteen seventeenth century Spain.

519
00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, like Thomas says, they were kind of a

520
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:40,800
Westphalian nation state before the treat the piece of West Failure. Yeah,

521
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,320
and they kind of get a They're at the apex

522
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,679
of their power throughout all that age of exploration, even

523
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,119
through the well kind of fallen off at the Enlightenment

524
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,159
and Queen Anne's War and all that kind of fucked them.

525
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,039
But yeah, I mean they were pretty cool. I wish

526
00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:00,880
I learned more about I'm growing up.

527
00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: And they couldn't keep their empire.

528
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,079
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so.

529
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: That's what, more than anything, really starts leading to the

530
00:37:14,079 --> 00:37:19,519
downfall and how the poverty that you see and they

531
00:37:19,519 --> 00:37:22,119
start seeing in the eighteen hundreds, in the early nineteen hundreds,

532
00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:23,880
which basically leads up to the war.

533
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I was always taught that after the Spanish

534
00:37:27,639 --> 00:37:31,079
Armada got destroyed, that was kind of the what sealed

535
00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:35,079
their fate when they went after England.

536
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: It is a tribunal strictly royal, composed of such members

537
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,480
only of the clergy as are remarkable for their learning

538
00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:45,880
and their abilities, and who, judging of real crimes in

539
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,840
virtue of the public and pre existing laws, pronounced their

540
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,239
sentence with a measure of equity and wisdom which perhaps

541
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,519
could nowhere be found in any other court of justice,

542
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,079
has really tickle on their balls.

543
00:37:59,679 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, this is the best special investigator we've ever had.

544
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,559
He's completely objective, and all he does is make recommendations.

545
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: They never condemn anyone, however, criminal to death. Hence, then

546
00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:18,039
in what terms can I express the infamy of the

547
00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:26,679
base calminiator that's really doing damage to a word that

548
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:33,199
I'm really familiar with. But wow, calumniator, who in the

549
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:38,559
above verses thus insolently misrepresents an order of men who,

550
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,000
so far from being cruel, are even remarkable for their

551
00:38:42,039 --> 00:38:47,440
clemency and moderation. But the truth is, Valtaire had his

552
00:38:47,559 --> 00:38:52,039
reasons for hating all authority. If men were all of

553
00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:56,559
them wise and well instructed, the absurdities and falsehoods like

554
00:38:56,599 --> 00:38:59,719
the fourth goo, like the foregoing would incite only their

555
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,800
rich and contempt. But unfortunately, such as not the case.

556
00:39:05,679 --> 00:39:10,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, Unfortunately Alberts still exist, and they're not laughed out

557
00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:11,039
of the public square.

558
00:39:12,559 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: The public ignorant and prejudice are easily imposed upon and deceived,

559
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,239
and the consequences that cheated by the gross misrepresentations of

560
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:28,960
a host of caluminating writers. They look upon the inquisition

561
00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:32,559
as a club of stupid and ferocious monks who roast

562
00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:36,800
men for their own amusement. Nay, it is even true,

563
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,960
such as the force of prejudice and ignorance, that the

564
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,159
same erroneous and unjust notions prevail even in the minds

565
00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:48,360
of a multitude of individuals who, in other regards are

566
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,320
distinguished for their good sense.

567
00:39:51,039 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 2: Many such cases, I mean, I was one of those

568
00:39:55,039 --> 00:39:59,039
people like that thought that the priests were swinging the

569
00:39:59,079 --> 00:40:02,679
axes and like I'm I'm Catholic, I should know better,

570
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:08,360
Like there's there's no way that a priest, that a

571
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:14,360
non excommunicated priest can recommend the death penalty or can

572
00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:17,880
can you know, cause physical harm to somebody or even

573
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,360
like promoted like they would be excommunicated. Like it's that's

574
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:23,679
just not something that they do.

575
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,679
Speaker 1: I mean they have to in order to do it.

576
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:31,039
They have to demonize a whole brotherhood, like the Dominicans. Yeah,

577
00:40:31,079 --> 00:40:32,840
let's say, oh, they were a rogue, they were a

578
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:33,800
rogue element.

579
00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: Or like one of the few goodes, few good orders.

580
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 1: You may find them moreover in the works, not unfrequently

581
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,440
of the very defenders of sound and virtuous principles. Thus,

582
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,920
for example, in the Journal de la Empire, you may

583
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,559
read the following strange passage we go to the English.

584
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,639
It is true, whatever else may be said of them,

585
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,679
that the inquisitors had maintained until seventeen eighty three, the

586
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,519
somewhat severe habit of so of solemnly burning people who

587
00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:13,360
did not but believe in God. This was their habit.

588
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,519
But apart from this point they were a very good character.

589
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like again, that never happened. Like a priest did

590
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,119
not say this guy should be burned for not believing

591
00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:25,519
in God.

592
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,559
Speaker 1: Surely the author of this passage could never have reflected

593
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:33,599
seriously upon what he writes. Where, then, in what nation

594
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,920
of the globe does there exist a tribunal which never

595
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,679
condemned anyone to death?

596
00:41:39,559 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, even the civil authorities were not that far off

597
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:44,440
from doing that.

598
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: Or what crime does any civil tribunal commit which condemns

599
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:52,800
the accused to death in virtue of a law of

600
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,840
the state ordaining such punishment for the crime of which

601
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,239
he has proved to have been guilty. And where again

602
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,199
is the Spanish law which ordains that the deists shall

603
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,679
be put to death? The boldness of such assertion an

604
00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:11,320
is as impudent an attempt to impose upon the credulty

605
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,519
of the public as an injustice or bigotry could well

606
00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:20,880
have invented. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's just breaking

607
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,880
the liars man. I mean, it's just flat out as

608
00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:26,800
flat out fiction.

609
00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. You can't call the punishment that's dealt out by

610
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:38,320
a lawful, a lawful, legitimate institution a crime unless you're

611
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,400
unless you're trying to win hearts and minds for some purpose.

612
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 1: Right amid the numberless errors which the enemies of our

613
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:52,519
religion have propagated, and with two deplorable success impressed deeply

614
00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:55,239
on the minds of the public. I hardly know any

615
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,559
that have surprised me more than the supposition and belief

616
00:42:58,599 --> 00:43:02,360
that priests are ever per to condemn anyone to death.

617
00:43:04,119 --> 00:43:07,519
Men may be excused for not knowing the religions of Foe,

618
00:43:07,679 --> 00:43:13,159
of Buddha, or of someone on condom, although still whoever

619
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,920
undertakes to defame even these preposterous systems ought first in

620
00:43:18,119 --> 00:43:21,960
justice to understand something at least about them.

621
00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: I'm on Europeans.

622
00:43:25,559 --> 00:43:28,159
Speaker 1: But for a Christian to be ignorant of the laws

623
00:43:28,199 --> 00:43:32,599
of Universal Christianity, this surely is a disorder which no

624
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,639
apology can justify. For what eye has not seen the

625
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:41,400
immense and lucid orb suspended for eighteen hundred years between

626
00:43:41,519 --> 00:43:46,239
Heaven and Earth, or what ear has not heard the

627
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,880
eternal axiom of our religion that the Church abhores blood.

628
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,320
Who does not know that the priests is even forbidden

629
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,599
to be a surgeon lest his consecrated hands shed the

630
00:43:57,639 --> 00:44:01,239
blood of a man, Although it be even for his cure.

631
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,960
Who does not know that in many Catholic nations the

632
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,880
priest is dispensed with from appearing as a witness in

633
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,480
trials of life and death, and that even in countries

634
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:17,000
where such condescendants is not allowed, he is still allowed

635
00:44:17,039 --> 00:44:20,679
to enter his protests, that he only appears as such

636
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,679
in obedience to the laws and in order to plead

637
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:28,360
for mercy. Never does the priests erect the scaffold. He

638
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,000
ascends it only as the martyr or the comforter. He

639
00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:35,559
preaches not but clemency and pity. And in no corner

640
00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:38,519
of the globe does he shed any other blood but

641
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:39,440
his own.

642
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you know, I'd liked. I did a little

643
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,119
bit of research into looking for any instances where, any

644
00:44:51,159 --> 00:44:55,800
instance throughout history where a member of the Catholic clergy

645
00:44:56,679 --> 00:45:03,559
has ever advocated for capital punishment or physical harm. And

646
00:45:05,559 --> 00:45:09,639
the one instance that came up first was some priest

647
00:45:09,679 --> 00:45:13,840
and VC France that collaborated with the Nazis to root

648
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,519
out Jews and get them deported. And I can't find

649
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:19,920
anything about him. In English.

650
00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:24,559
Speaker 1: The church says Pascal, the chaste spouse of the Son

651
00:45:24,599 --> 00:45:28,119
of God is always an imitation of this merciful, being

652
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,719
prepared and ready to shed her blood for the sake

653
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,440
of others, but not to shed that of others for

654
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,280
her own sake, she entertains the most decided horror of

655
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,159
bloodshed proportioned to that particular light which God has communicated

656
00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:45,679
to her. She considers men not simply as men, but

657
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,280
as the images of the God whom she adores. She

658
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,239
cherishes for each and every individual that holy respect which

659
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,480
renders them all venerable in her sight, as having been

660
00:45:57,519 --> 00:46:00,920
purchased and redeemed at an infinite price in order to

661
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,719
become one day the temples of the Living God. For

662
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,960
these reasons, it is that she looks upon the death

663
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,960
of an individual inflicted without an order from God not

664
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,519
only as an active murder, but as a sacrilege moreover,

665
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,440
depriving her thus of one of her members, because whether

666
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,880
the person thus sacrificed be one of the faithful or not,

667
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,440
she still always considers him either as being one of

668
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,559
her children or else capable of becoming such.

669
00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:36,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, getting into uh a doctrine of salvation. And

670
00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:42,519
that's the other one. I forget. I'm not that good

671
00:46:42,559 --> 00:46:43,199
of a Catholic.

672
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: They really aren't a lot, and as somebody who grew

673
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:51,840
up Catholic and graduated Catholic school, and it's.

674
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: Got a part of the deal. Yes, I am a

675
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:55,840
piece of shit. Nice to be here.

676
00:46:56,199 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: I went to a Jesuit school for a couple of

677
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:03,079
years and I still don't know shit. It is very

678
00:47:03,079 --> 00:47:06,119
well known that no private individual is permitted to require

679
00:47:06,159 --> 00:47:10,840
the death of another. Whence it became necessary to establish

680
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,880
public officers to do this by the authority of the King,

681
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,920
or rather by that of the Almighty, and hence again,

682
00:47:18,039 --> 00:47:20,679
in order to act as the faithful dispensers of the

683
00:47:20,679 --> 00:47:24,119
divine power in all cases of life and death. The

684
00:47:24,159 --> 00:47:27,880
magistrates have no liberty of judging and deciding, save by

685
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,719
the testimony and the depositions of witnesses, in consequence of

686
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:37,239
which they can neither unconscious, pass any inconscience, pass any sentence.

687
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,039
But according to the dictator of the law, nor condemn

688
00:47:40,119 --> 00:47:44,360
anyone to death but him whom the law condemns.

689
00:47:44,079 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, the civil law condemns yep.

690
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,679
Speaker 1: And then two, if the order of God obliges them

691
00:47:51,679 --> 00:47:54,559
to consign the body of the wretched criminal to punishment,

692
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,199
the same order of God obliges them again to take

693
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,960
care of his guilty soul. In all this, there is

694
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,239
nothing but what is right and completely innocent. And still

695
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,119
so much does the Church abore the shedding of blood,

696
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,559
that she declares all those incapacitated for the service of

697
00:48:12,599 --> 00:48:16,360
her altars which have ever participated in a sentence of death.

698
00:48:16,639 --> 00:48:21,400
Although this were attended all the by all the aforesaid

699
00:48:21,559 --> 00:48:23,280
religious circumstances.

700
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a again, just making very clear that line

701
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,719
that priests will not cross, and when civil authorities do

702
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,599
cross it, then the priest has a role too, But

703
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:41,320
it's not a nefarious or harmful role. It's praying for

704
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:41,800
their soul.

705
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,039
Speaker 1: You cannot, sir, but admire the beauty and own the

706
00:48:46,079 --> 00:48:50,000
wisdom of the above theory. Perhaps, however, you may wish

707
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,760
likewise to know by experience the true spirit of the

708
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,880
priesthood in relation to this interesting object, Well, well, then

709
00:48:59,119 --> 00:49:02,760
study and consider this. In those countries or places where

710
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:07,079
the priesthood once held or still holds the scepter, a

711
00:49:07,159 --> 00:49:11,880
series of extraordinary circumstances had formerly established in Germany a

712
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:17,480
multitude of ecclesiastical sovereignties. To judge of these under the

713
00:49:17,519 --> 00:49:20,639
heads of clemency and justice, you need only call to

714
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,480
your recollection the old German proverb it is good to

715
00:49:24,599 --> 00:49:25,800
live under the croucher.

716
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. It made me wonder, like what the difference was

717
00:49:30,519 --> 00:49:35,679
between living, you know, in let's say medieval Germany that region,

718
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:40,360
like under a bishopric or a duchy or a county,

719
00:49:41,039 --> 00:49:44,519
you know, or or a free city, Like what were

720
00:49:44,559 --> 00:49:48,400
the difference, Like what was your interaction with civil authorities

721
00:49:48,559 --> 00:49:50,639
like in each one of them? Like how do they compare?

722
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would think that those were they could actually

723
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:03,320
be an arctic Yeah. Yeah, you're not really dealing with

724
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,239
them unless you get on someone's radar.

725
00:50:06,159 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Or they need to raise some levies, or yeah,

726
00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:12,559
you know that the taxman comes to take some wheat

727
00:50:12,639 --> 00:50:13,159
or whatever.

728
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,039
Speaker 3: Yeah.

729
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,559
Speaker 1: Proverbs which are the fruit of public experience, are testimonies

730
00:50:19,599 --> 00:50:24,360
which never deceive us. I therefore appeal to this authority,

731
00:50:24,679 --> 00:50:27,519
which is still farther confirmed by the sanction of every

732
00:50:27,519 --> 00:50:32,440
man who possessed either memory or judgment. Never under those

733
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,440
mild and pacific governments was there any question of persecution,

734
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,639
nor of any capital sentence against the spiritual enemies of

735
00:50:40,679 --> 00:50:46,079
the reigning powers. And what sir, shall I say of Rome,

736
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,800
It is no doubt under the government of the sovereign

737
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,960
Pontius that the spirit of the priesthood should manifest itself

738
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:59,400
the most unequivocally, unequivocally. Now it is an Now, it

739
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:04,280
is now. It is an incontestable and universally admitted truth

740
00:51:04,679 --> 00:51:08,960
that never was has this government been reproached with aught?

741
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:14,199
But it's too great mildness. Nowhere does there exist a

742
00:51:14,199 --> 00:51:18,960
more paternal administration, a more impartial distribution of justice and

743
00:51:19,199 --> 00:51:22,519
order of punishment, more gentle and humane, a measure of

744
00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:27,840
toleration more complete. Rome is perhaps the only place in

745
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,119
Europe where the Jew is neither humbled nor ill treated

746
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,960
at all events. It is most certainly the place where

747
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:39,519
he is the happiest. For Rome has always been proverbially

748
00:51:39,599 --> 00:51:45,440
called the paradise of the Jews. Yeah, I mean first

749
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:46,480
century was a little rough.

750
00:51:47,039 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for a little bit. Well they you know,

751
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:56,679
once again, there's some backstory to that. But it got

752
00:51:56,679 --> 00:51:58,679
me thinking, like, I wonder what it would be like

753
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,039
to live in the Vatican, like that is a true theocracy.

754
00:52:02,639 --> 00:52:04,400
And then I went and looked up their crime rate,

755
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,440
and of course it's abysmally low. I know that, you know,

756
00:52:08,519 --> 00:52:11,000
only certain people can live in the fat It has

757
00:52:11,039 --> 00:52:14,960
about a thousand permanent residents. And then you get the gendarme,

758
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:16,119
how do you say.

759
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: The Swiss army.

760
00:52:18,079 --> 00:52:22,679
Speaker 2: This was yeah, you know, you get their barracks there.

761
00:52:22,679 --> 00:52:27,239
But you know it, it was very recently that a

762
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,920
guy tried to run the run the gate at h

763
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:36,760
at the Vatican and the Swiss guard like shot out

764
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,679
his tires. He crashed his car and then they they

765
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,800
took that guy to the hospital and like gave him

766
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:46,920
medical treatment and like just like sent it, like sent

767
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:53,599
them away for investigation and then like let him go. Yeah,

768
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:59,079
and uh, who was it? A Pope Benedict, the guy

769
00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:01,400
that tried to assassate Pope Benedict, who was like a

770
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:06,039
Turkish hit man. Pope Benedict like went to his prison

771
00:53:06,119 --> 00:53:10,239
cell and they didn't record the conversation, but he gave

772
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,599
him a box with rosary beads and then petitioned the

773
00:53:13,639 --> 00:53:16,639
Italian president to part in him. And the guy got

774
00:53:16,639 --> 00:53:21,000
pardoned and then like converted to Christianity, converted to Catholicism afterwards.

775
00:53:21,119 --> 00:53:25,679
This is like a Turkish hitman. And like so I

776
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:32,440
think that probably characterizes living in a in a true theocracy.

777
00:53:34,079 --> 00:53:38,159
More more so, like I I can't characterize living in

778
00:53:38,199 --> 00:53:41,559
a democracy or in a dictatorship or anything like that.

779
00:53:41,599 --> 00:53:46,480
There's just it's so inconsistent. Yeah that you know, I

780
00:53:46,559 --> 00:53:49,840
might get pushed on the third rail of the subway tomorrow,

781
00:53:50,519 --> 00:53:52,719
or I might you know, I might get promoted at

782
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:57,400
my job. I don't know, but uh yeah, that's that's

783
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,840
what I gather from that. Like, huh, I wonder if

784
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:01,800
the if Attican's a nice place to live. That's really

785
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:07,039
the only the last remaining truth. Theocracy today, in like manner,

786
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:11,800
consult the voice of history. What government do you anywhere

787
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,239
find that has been less severe than that of modern

788
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,960
Rome in relation to every kind of anti religious offenses

789
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,960
and disorders? Even during those periods which are called the

790
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:28,159
ages of ignorance and fanaticism, not even then did its

791
00:54:28,159 --> 00:54:33,840
spirit or its practice vary. Thus, let me just cite

792
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,920
to you the example of Clement absolutely scolding the King

793
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:42,239
of France. And this king was San Luis himself for

794
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,840
having made certain laws against blasphemers, which that pontiff thought

795
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,920
too severe. In treating him at the same time, very

796
00:54:51,039 --> 00:54:55,039
urgently in his bowl of July twelfth, twelve sixty eight,

797
00:54:55,079 --> 00:54:58,880
to mitigate them. He moreover, in another bowl of the

798
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:02,400
same date, addressed to the King of Navar remarks to

799
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:06,000
this prince, it is by no means advisable to imitate

800
00:55:06,039 --> 00:55:10,119
the example of our very beloved son in Jesus Christ,

801
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,679
the illustrious King of France, in regard to those two

802
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:18,519
rigorous laws which has which he has published against these

803
00:55:18,639 --> 00:55:23,840
kinds of crimes. I never knew that. Well.

804
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,079
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting that this was so famous an

805
00:55:28,119 --> 00:55:31,760
incident that he could just reference it to the King

806
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,280
of Navarre and he knows exactly what he's talking about.

807
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not something you think would have Like, again,

808
00:55:42,159 --> 00:55:47,280
going back to being taught, you know, and the implications

809
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,440
of what I was taught growing up is that, you know,

810
00:55:50,519 --> 00:55:54,280
the when when a civil authority passed a blasphemy law,

811
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:58,679
it was at the behest of the pope, And that's

812
00:55:59,159 --> 00:56:03,119
not the case. Finding out actually the Pope didn't like

813
00:56:03,159 --> 00:56:03,639
that at all.

814
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the civil authority. Voltaire, in some of

815
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,519
those moments when his common sense was not obscured by

816
00:56:11,559 --> 00:56:16,320
the clouds or fever of irreligion, has on several occasions

817
00:56:16,599 --> 00:56:20,719
borne very honorable testimony to the papal government. Thus, in

818
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:27,360
his poem de de la Loi natural Aurelius, Trajan, princes

819
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:33,039
of renown, the Poncefs, bonnet war, an emperor's crown. The

820
00:56:33,079 --> 00:56:36,639
world depended on their care alone, and the school's vain

821
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:42,559
disputes were then unknown. Those legislators, those legislators with sage maxims,

822
00:56:42,599 --> 00:56:48,800
fraught nere for their sacred birds with fury, fought on

823
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,840
the same principle. Rome now holds command the throne and

824
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,920
altar by their union stand.

825
00:56:55,679 --> 00:57:01,760
Speaker 2: Hmm, it's like bringing up an old tweet. Oh, I

826
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:02,280
thought you.

827
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: Liked this, That's so funny. Where such, then, is the

828
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,599
evidence of the general character of the Church. Why should

829
00:57:12,599 --> 00:57:17,079
it anywhere be called in question? Mild, tolerant, charitable, in

830
00:57:17,199 --> 00:57:20,719
every nation of the globe? Why or by what magic

831
00:57:21,199 --> 00:57:24,840
does it so chance that she is cruel alone in Spain,

832
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,440
a nation eminently distinguished for its high sense of honor

833
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,079
and for the generosity of its subjects.

834
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 2: And he's foondewing a lot of balls.

835
00:57:36,039 --> 00:57:40,599
Speaker 1: I must hear premise and important observation. It is this that,

836
00:57:40,679 --> 00:57:45,039
in the discussion of all questions, be these what they may,

837
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,559
there is nothing so essential as to avoid a confusion

838
00:57:48,599 --> 00:57:53,760
of ideas. Wherefore, when we speak or reason about the inquisition.

839
00:57:54,159 --> 00:57:57,920
Let us always separate and distinguish accurately the conduct of

840
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:01,960
the state from the conduct of the Church. Whatever in

841
00:58:02,039 --> 00:58:05,920
this tribunal is rigorous and frightful, But above all the

842
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:10,960
punishment of death, all this is purely the concern of

843
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,079
the civil government. It is its affair, and it alone

844
00:58:15,199 --> 00:58:19,800
is accountable for it. Whereas all the clemency which is

845
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,039
so remarkable in this tribunal is the act and influence

846
00:58:23,039 --> 00:58:26,960
of the Church, which interferes with punishments only in order

847
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:31,360
either to suppress or to mitigate them. Such it is

848
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:37,159
indelible and never varying character. Not only is it an error,

849
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,440
it is even a crime to maintain or yet to

850
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:44,360
suppose that the priesthood can ever pronounce the sentence of

851
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,800
death upon anyone.

852
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:56,159
Speaker 2: Hmm. It's like, uh, I feel like if antaps read this,

853
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,559
they would, uh, they would come to the conclusion that

854
00:58:59,599 --> 00:59:04,079
the Church ch was better at better at anarchism than

855
00:59:04,559 --> 00:59:08,880
than than any other institution has been. You know, what

856
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,840
what is sideline the state more? Uh, you know, and

857
00:59:14,119 --> 00:59:19,280
an archo capitalism or all of the successful the successful

858
00:59:20,599 --> 00:59:25,400
conversions to clemency that the Church you know, gave to

859
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:29,239
the state on behalf of the people they're accusing. Yeah,

860
00:59:29,239 --> 00:59:33,639
I mean, which is saved more lives. Maybe we should

861
00:59:33,639 --> 00:59:41,639
tell the church about Ross Albert. Yeah, yeah, yep, I

862
00:59:41,679 --> 00:59:44,760
guarantee they would be better advocates than a lot of

863
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:45,360
other people.

864
00:59:45,599 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, in history, more effective. Well yeah, it would be

865
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:53,079
less of a virtue signal.

866
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's you're not looking at somebody like

867
00:59:59,239 --> 01:00:02,840
myself that posts the N word on Twitter all day

868
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:07,480
suddenly pivoting to you know, we should really uh like

869
01:00:07,559 --> 01:00:10,920
I oh my heart bleeds for now, let's say Ross

870
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:15,519
Olbrich like that. That doesn't sound right coming from somebody

871
01:00:15,599 --> 01:00:20,159
like me, but from somebody whose heart bleeds daily on

872
01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:23,880
Twitter like so as a little more weight to it, yeah,

873
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:26,880
a little more credibility.

874
01:00:29,119 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: In the history of France, there is a great event

875
01:00:31,719 --> 01:00:35,440
which is not sufficiently noticed. It is that which regards

876
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:40,079
the templars, these unfortunate beings, whether guilty or not, this

877
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,360
is not here the question petitioned earnestly to be tried

878
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:49,119
by the Tribunal of the Inquisition, knowing well, say they're historians,

879
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,559
that if they could only succeed in obtaining its members

880
01:00:52,559 --> 01:00:55,559
for their judges, they should run no risk of being

881
01:00:55,599 --> 01:01:02,519
condemned to death. The King of France, however, aware of this,

882
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:06,119
and of the inevitable consequences of this appeal of the templars,

883
01:01:06,679 --> 01:01:11,280
formed now his own determination, he shut himself up alone

884
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,639
with his Council of State, and at once hastily condemned

885
01:01:14,679 --> 01:01:18,079
them to death. This is a fact which is not,

886
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:24,960
i believe, sufficiently or generally known IgE that yeah me

887
01:01:25,039 --> 01:01:29,000
either At the earlier periods of the Inquisition, and when

888
01:01:29,039 --> 01:01:32,039
the greatest severity was chiefly needed, the inquisitors in Spain

889
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:36,639
used not to inflict any punishment more rigorous than the

890
01:01:36,679 --> 01:01:40,719
confiscation of the criminal's property, and even this was always

891
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:45,719
remitted whenever he thought proper to abjure his errors within

892
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:49,679
the term so within the term so called of grace.

893
01:01:52,039 --> 01:01:54,360
It does not appear quite clear from the instrument thus

894
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:58,480
referred to, at what exact period it was that the

895
01:01:58,519 --> 01:02:03,360
Tribunal of the Inquisition began to pass the sentence of death. This, however,

896
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,639
is not material. It suffices to know what cannot be

897
01:02:06,719 --> 01:02:09,880
called in question, that it could only have acquired this

898
01:02:10,039 --> 01:02:13,760
right by having become a royal institution, and that with

899
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,639
the sentences of death, the priesthood from the nature of

900
01:02:16,679 --> 01:02:20,679
their character, had not could not have anything at all

901
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:21,199
to do.

902
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:32,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I said, there's multiple, multiple rules bestowed by

903
01:02:32,159 --> 01:02:37,679
the Magisterium that forbid priests from being involved in any

904
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:44,559
advocation of capital punishment. And it's been that way forever.

905
01:02:45,679 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 1: In our times, the matter is no longer an object

906
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:53,119
of incertitude. It is now well known that every important sentence,

907
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:56,400
even the sentence of simple arrest, was decided by the

908
01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,440
advice of the Supreme Council, without whose authority nothing was

909
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:06,199
in fact determined. Now this is a circumstance which presupposes

910
01:03:06,239 --> 01:03:10,400
and implies both the greatest prudence and the most careful circumspection.

911
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,840
But in short, if it did so happen that the

912
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,599
accused was pronounced a heretic, the tribunal in this case,

913
01:03:18,719 --> 01:03:22,519
after having ordered the confiscation of his property, made him

914
01:03:22,559 --> 01:03:26,719
over for the legal punishment to the secular arm, that is,

915
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:31,559
to the Council of Castile, a body of men than

916
01:03:31,639 --> 01:03:36,039
whom nothing in any nation could be more enlightened, more learned,

917
01:03:36,639 --> 01:03:41,039
or more impartial. If the proofs alleged against the accused

918
01:03:41,039 --> 01:03:45,039
did not appear evident, or if even though guilty, he

919
01:03:45,119 --> 01:03:49,360
did not remain obstinate. The only punishment which then was

920
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:53,599
inflicted on him was simply an act of abjuration performed

921
01:03:53,639 --> 01:03:59,599
in the church and attended by certain prescribed ceremonies. Did

922
01:03:59,599 --> 01:04:01,159
you look up what abjuration is?

923
01:04:02,519 --> 01:04:05,039
Speaker 2: I could do that right now. I'm guessing it has

924
01:04:05,119 --> 01:04:10,920
something to do with like anathematizing. Yeah, solemn repudiation, abandonment

925
01:04:11,079 --> 01:04:17,960
or renunciation. So yeah, anathematizing excommunicating along those lines, but

926
01:04:18,159 --> 01:04:21,000
in a formal official capacity.

927
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:26,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is true. All this implied a certain measure

928
01:04:26,239 --> 01:04:29,000
of disgrace to the family of the criminal and to

929
01:04:29,079 --> 01:04:33,559
the criminal himself. It involved the incapacity of exercising any

930
01:04:33,599 --> 01:04:38,719
public employment. I am, however, perfectly convinced that in regard

931
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:43,000
to these latter dispositions, they were but the artifices of clemency,

932
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:47,079
invented for the express purpose of sheltering the greatest criminals.

933
01:04:48,199 --> 01:04:51,119
Certain facts which have come to my own knowledge, and

934
01:04:51,199 --> 01:04:54,280
above all, the character itself of the Tribunal, leave no

935
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:58,599
doubt whatsoever upon my mind in these respects. But in

936
01:04:58,719 --> 01:05:00,880
order not to dwell any longer upon this part of

937
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,400
my subject, I will at once place before you one

938
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,400
of the sentences of the inquisition of the most severe

939
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:10,559
and rigorous character. It is one which, without ordering the

940
01:05:10,599 --> 01:05:13,960
death of the criminal, still draws that punishment after it,

941
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,480
on the supposition that the guilt be such as the

942
01:05:17,599 --> 01:05:22,000
law ordains, shall be visited by this infliction. The following, then,

943
01:05:22,239 --> 01:05:27,039
is the form and nature of the sentence. We have declared,

944
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:33,280
and do hereby declare that the accused n N sorry,

945
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,199
is convicted of being an apostate heretic, an encourager and

946
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:42,480
concealer of heretics, a false and pretended confessant, and a

947
01:05:42,599 --> 01:05:46,800
relapsed impenitent, by which crimes he has incurred the punishment

948
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:50,559
of the greater excommunication and the confiscation of all his goods,

949
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:53,119
to the profit of the Royal Chamber and of His

950
01:05:53,239 --> 01:05:58,880
Majesty's Attorney General. We moreover declare that the accused ought

951
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,960
to be left as we now leave him to justice

952
01:06:02,039 --> 01:06:05,320
and to the secular arm in treating these and very

953
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:08,360
affectionately and in the best strongest manner that we can,

954
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,519
charging them to treat the criminal with kindness and compassion.

955
01:06:13,119 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 2: Oh on a left field, that's not the church that

956
01:06:18,519 --> 01:06:20,159
Voltaire was talking about.

957
01:06:22,159 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 1: Or anyone really.

958
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:24,639
Speaker 3: Yeah.

959
01:06:24,679 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: The Spanish author of the Inquisition unmasked, who has furnished

960
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:32,440
me with the above details, pretends it is true that

961
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:35,719
the clause thus recommending mercy is no other than a

962
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:40,119
mere unavailing formality, and of no service to the criminal.

963
01:06:42,199 --> 01:06:44,280
And in order to prove this he cites the words

964
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:48,400
of n Espen, according to whom the protestation made by

965
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:52,360
the tribunal is little else than a kind of external formality,

966
01:06:52,719 --> 01:06:54,719
which nevertheless is dear to the Church.

967
01:06:55,719 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 2: They had to say that, yeah, it didn't really mean it.

968
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 1: Now this objection does not, after all, in any degree

969
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:07,159
weaken the general proposition that the Inquisition never itself condemns

970
01:07:07,199 --> 01:07:10,800
anyone to death, and that on no occasion will there

971
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,599
be found the name of any priest inscribed in any

972
01:07:13,639 --> 01:07:19,079
warrant for such execution. Where the laws of Spain ordain

973
01:07:19,159 --> 01:07:22,400
the punishment of death for such or such a crime,

974
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:27,119
the courts of justice cannot of course oppose them. Thus,

975
01:07:27,159 --> 01:07:30,679
if the Inquisition, after the most diligent investigation and from

976
01:07:30,679 --> 01:07:33,639
the clearest evidence, find the accused guilty of the crimes

977
01:07:33,639 --> 01:07:36,960
imputed to him, it's judgment, then if it be a

978
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,840
case of death regulated by the laws, will therefore be

979
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:45,039
followed by death. But with this the tribunal itself has

980
01:07:45,079 --> 01:07:48,800
nothing at all to do, and it is and forever

981
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:54,039
will be true that it never condemns anyone, however guilty

982
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:55,039
to death.

983
01:07:56,119 --> 01:07:59,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's it's kind of like a special investigation,

984
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:01,480
you see. You know that we that we saw a

985
01:08:01,519 --> 01:08:05,960
lot of with the last president. Their job is to

986
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:10,480
find out the facts, determine if any crimes were committed.

987
01:08:11,039 --> 01:08:18,800
Only instead of recommending, recommending sentencing, they don't even do that.

988
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,840
All they do is investigate. And he's he goes through

989
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:28,000
great pains and uses primary sources to basically prove his point.

990
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 1: The civil power acts and has the authority to act

991
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:34,960
as it thinks proper. But if, by virtue of the

992
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:39,359
foregoing clause dear to the Church, it judges condemned any

993
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:43,680
innocent man to death themselves, in such case would be

994
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:50,640
the great offending criminals. Hence, then that unceasingly repeated expression

995
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:55,159
calling the inquisition a bloody tribunal is not merely groundless

996
01:08:55,159 --> 01:08:59,960
but absurd. There does not there cannot exist anywhere at tribunal.

997
01:09:00,319 --> 01:09:04,039
But what unhappily is sometimes under the necessity of condemning

998
01:09:04,079 --> 01:09:07,880
the criminal to death, and which is irreproachable for doing so,

999
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:11,600
provided it but executes the law upon the most positive

1000
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:16,119
and clearest evidence, and which even would be justly reproachable

1001
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:20,760
if it did not execute the law upon such testimony.

1002
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:26,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. If if you don't, if your judicial system doesn't

1003
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:31,760
carry out your you know, the sentencing guidelines for whatever crime,

1004
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:34,960
then what good is it? That's that's kind of what

1005
01:09:35,039 --> 01:09:40,319
we have now, where you know, you could I won't

1006
01:09:40,319 --> 01:09:44,880
go with that example, but you could murder somebody and

1007
01:09:45,199 --> 01:09:48,399
some and depending on who you are, you might get

1008
01:09:48,399 --> 01:09:51,760
off with, you know, six months of prison, or you

1009
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:54,920
might go on the fast track to you know, the

1010
01:09:55,319 --> 01:09:59,520
electric chair, you know, that whole anarcho tyranny thing that

1011
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:03,079
we have right now. Yeah, my cat, My cat's going

1012
01:10:03,159 --> 01:10:04,880
crazy out of here.

1013
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,319
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean I was thinking that, Yeah, it's

1014
01:10:11,359 --> 01:10:14,399
a narco tyranny if you don't. Yeah, and that's what

1015
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:15,359
we're under right now.

1016
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. The idea that you could have a judicial system

1017
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:22,159
that just does whatever they feel, like, whatever they want,

1018
01:10:22,399 --> 01:10:26,800
is a completely foreign concept to somebody like Demeestro. Like

1019
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:28,920
a tribunal is what it is, and the laws are

1020
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:33,239
what they are, and the maximum sentences are also what

1021
01:10:33,279 --> 01:10:34,119
they are, Like.

1022
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 1: And they don't even have to do the maximum sentence.

1023
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,479
They can decide they want to give somebody a slap

1024
01:10:41,479 --> 01:10:42,239
on the wrist, but.

1025
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:44,640
Speaker 2: It's just right back out to rape again.

1026
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:49,239
Speaker 1: But they are listening to what you know, this tribunal

1027
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:54,600
is saying in its investigation. Yeah, it is moreover a

1028
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,399
fact that the Inquisition does not itself condemn anyone to

1029
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:00,479
the punishment of death ordained by the dictator of the laws.

1030
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:04,039
This is a matter purely and essentially civil. Be the

1031
01:11:04,079 --> 01:11:08,520
appearances ever so much, be the appearances ever so much

1032
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,279
against it. And upon this point, the Committee itself of

1033
01:11:11,319 --> 01:11:15,399
the Courts as agrees with the author of the Inquisition unmasked,

1034
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:19,079
who I have cited already. Philip the second says the

1035
01:11:19,079 --> 01:11:22,720
committee the most absurdive. Princes was the real founder of

1036
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:26,840
the inquisition. It was his refined policy that exalted.

1037
01:11:28,119 --> 01:11:28,399
Speaker 2: Right.

1038
01:11:30,079 --> 01:11:32,640
Speaker 1: It was his refined policy that exalted it to the

1039
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:38,079
height of authority to which it rose. Monarchs have always

1040
01:11:38,119 --> 01:11:41,720
rejected the councils and suspicions which at times have been

1041
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:45,319
addressed to them against the Tribunal, and their reasons were

1042
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:50,000
because in every case there were the absolute masters of naming, suspending,

1043
01:11:50,079 --> 01:11:54,079
and dismissing the inquisitors, whilst at the same time themselves

1044
01:11:54,159 --> 01:11:59,439
had nothing to apprehend from the tribunal. From these concessions

1045
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:01,319
of the Committee, I think it is evident that the

1046
01:12:01,359 --> 01:12:04,800
Tribunal of the Inquisition was completely under the control, not

1047
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:08,760
of the priesthood, but of the civil or royal authority.

1048
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:11,359
Or if the preceding passage did not convince you of this,

1049
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:14,039
I will cite to you another from the same report,

1050
01:12:14,399 --> 01:12:17,439
in which the Committee observes that in no papal bull

1051
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:19,840
can it be found that the Supreme Council has the

1052
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:22,840
right to decide any cause in the absence of the

1053
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:27,359
Grand Inquisitor, but which however, is constantly done without the

1054
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:34,439
slenderest difficulty. Once the reporter of the Committee concludes that

1055
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:38,279
in these cases the councilors act not as ecclesiastical but

1056
01:12:38,359 --> 01:12:42,239
as royal judges. But beyond all this, as it is

1057
01:12:42,239 --> 01:12:45,920
not an incontestable fact that neither at present nor formerly

1058
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:50,159
could any order of the Inquisition be I do not

1059
01:12:50,279 --> 01:12:54,119
say executed, but so much as published without the previous

1060
01:12:54,159 --> 01:12:55,199
consent of the King.

1061
01:12:56,560 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything went by him.

1062
01:13:01,119 --> 01:13:05,680
Speaker 1: It was for this reason. But no, it was for this,

1063
01:13:06,279 --> 01:13:09,039
for these reasons that the kings of Spain have at

1064
01:13:09,039 --> 01:13:13,159
all periods been strongly attached to the Inquisition. Thus, Charles

1065
01:13:13,199 --> 01:13:16,279
the Fifth, when petitioned by the states of Aragon and

1066
01:13:16,319 --> 01:13:20,720
Castile to render the proceedings of the Inquisition less severe, replied,

1067
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:23,239
for he was a prince who pretty well understood the

1068
01:13:23,359 --> 01:13:27,279
art of ruling to their addresses in terms the most

1069
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:31,359
in terms, the most ambiguous, seeming to grant everything, and

1070
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:33,760
yet in reality granting nothing.

1071
01:13:34,079 --> 01:13:40,960
Speaker 2: Yep, truth. Uh, I'm like Charles the Fifth at my job,

1072
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:47,279
I totally get it. Game recognizes the game.

1073
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:53,760
Speaker 1: Wentz Garnier, an historian who on this subject is, of

1074
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:57,560
all others, the least to be suspected, very candidly allows

1075
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:01,279
that the religious Inquisition was nothing more nor less than

1076
01:14:01,279 --> 01:14:06,039
a political institution. It is a fact which merits noticed

1077
01:14:06,039 --> 01:14:10,279
that in the year fifteen nineteen the Aragonese had obtained

1078
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,399
from Leo the tenth the complete concession of all their

1079
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:18,520
petitions upon this subject, a circumstance which strikingly points out

1080
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:22,920
the spirit of the Church and the character of her pontiffs. However,

1081
01:14:23,119 --> 01:14:26,680
Charles the Fifth opposed the execution of the papal bulls

1082
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:29,680
and Leo in order that he might not discuss the

1083
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:33,279
King issued in fifteen twenty the Bull in which he

1084
01:14:33,319 --> 01:14:35,359
approves of Charles's conduct.

1085
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:41,680
Speaker 2: Huh, so I guess there was some drama. Yeah.

1086
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:44,359
Speaker 1: I have thus stated to your lordship the character of

1087
01:14:44,359 --> 01:14:47,119
the Inquisition. From it and from the facts which I

1088
01:14:47,159 --> 01:14:50,199
have cited, you will be convinced how groundless are the

1089
01:14:50,239 --> 01:14:54,279
notions which the public everywhere entertained of this tribunal, and

1090
01:14:54,319 --> 01:14:58,439
how unjust the columnies with which the Infidel and the

1091
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:05,520
Protestant writers have so bitterly assailed. It's had to get

1092
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:06,479
that in there at the end.

1093
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:13,399
Speaker 2: Yep. I love it. Yeah this, Uh, reading this the

1094
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:18,920
past few days, I it it makes me want to

1095
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:21,479
look at what else Imperium Press has.

1096
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:28,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a there's a lot there there. I've read

1097
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:32,399
a good amount of their of their work, and uh,

1098
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:36,600
they're putting out stuff that not only revision, but a

1099
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:39,640
lot of reaction. I mean, they have their own own

1100
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:43,840
version of the Iliad. Oh, really classics stuff. Yeah, it's

1101
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:47,119
a good, good website to just go and browse and you'll,

1102
01:15:47,199 --> 01:15:50,800
uh you'll you'll find great stuff. But the I think

1103
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,239
Thomas said it properly in the episode. It's like before

1104
01:15:54,319 --> 01:15:59,520
the Internet, everybody believed the Inquisition was about these executions

1105
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:04,079
by the Church and everything. But then like after after

1106
01:16:04,159 --> 01:16:06,399
the Internet, when you can just climb, you know, climb

1107
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:08,479
on your computer and find out, oh, it actually wasn't

1108
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:11,520
like this at all. There's proof out here that you

1109
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:14,239
know that it's you know, it's exactly what Demester was

1110
01:16:14,239 --> 01:16:17,239
was says it is that. Now you just look foolish

1111
01:16:17,279 --> 01:16:20,079
if you, uh, if you're holding to that.

1112
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 2: So some of the prep work I tried to do

1113
01:16:23,039 --> 01:16:27,640
for this episode was looking into primary source documents for

1114
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:35,600
any type of case notes or interrogations, any any type

1115
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:39,479
of official documentation of them. And then also there's a

1116
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:45,399
there's actually there actually exists a inquisitors manual. It's literally

1117
01:16:45,399 --> 01:16:52,199
called like manual Inquisitorum. Unfortunately, the vast majority of primary

1118
01:16:52,199 --> 01:16:56,479
source documents I could find have not been translated into English.

1119
01:16:57,079 --> 01:16:59,479
So I think that's kind of the next great leap

1120
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:04,640
as far as uh, you know, just this this whole

1121
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:10,199
react reaction thing is translating, translating as many things as

1122
01:17:10,199 --> 01:17:13,159
we can, because that's where the revision's going to come from.

1123
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:19,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was thinking about this the other day, and

1124
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:21,319
when you think about it, it's such a black pill.

1125
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:25,239
How much of history just are we never going to know?

1126
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:30,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean ninety percent of the things that

1127
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:35,000
we know about history have been translated from other languages,

1128
01:17:35,039 --> 01:17:39,199
but you know by people that don't may not may

1129
01:17:39,239 --> 01:17:41,840
not like the original interpretation.

1130
01:17:42,239 --> 01:17:45,079
Speaker 1: Well, also just how much wasn't written down, how much

1131
01:17:45,119 --> 01:17:49,119
has been lost, how much has been hidden? How much

1132
01:17:49,239 --> 01:17:56,039
it's I mean, I mean look at like Nagamadi. Yeah,

1133
01:17:56,039 --> 01:17:58,960
those texts and everything. Finding those texts, it's like how

1134
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:03,399
it's like when however, you find something new, it's just like, oh,

1135
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:08,079
you know it, it seeks to revise what you know,

1136
01:18:08,119 --> 01:18:11,840
what people have known. But you find out that even

1137
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:18,239
even in the twenty first century, if people if something

1138
01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:24,479
is uncovered, that basically shows that anything that you know,

1139
01:18:25,399 --> 01:18:28,119
anything you've held, and especially if you've held it close

1140
01:18:28,159 --> 01:18:31,479
to your estimated a part of you, is wrong. You're

1141
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:35,640
going to fight against it as much as the what's

1142
01:18:35,359 --> 01:18:37,520
the story of the priests that didn't want to look

1143
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:38,520
through the telescope?

1144
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:40,279
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1145
01:18:41,279 --> 01:18:46,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, but no, man, we got some more

1146
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,479
letters to go through here, and the more as you

1147
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:54,000
read the letter, as you if there's any if you're

1148
01:18:54,039 --> 01:18:56,600
reading and you think there's any that like repeat too

1149
01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:59,279
much and you think we should we should skip, let

1150
01:18:59,359 --> 01:19:01,239
me know, I'm gonna I'm going to read them as

1151
01:19:01,239 --> 01:19:03,560
we go. As we I've already read the whole book,

1152
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:06,880
but I've been I reread this first letter again today.

1153
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:10,600
I'll reread it as we go through it, and maybe

1154
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:12,359
there are some ones we can skip, but there are

1155
01:19:12,399 --> 01:19:16,520
someones coming up that have that have sorry about that,

1156
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:18,479
that have some really good stuff in them, that uh,

1157
01:19:19,079 --> 01:19:22,479
some really good points. And especially when he starts talking

1158
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:25,399
about the bloody Revolution.

1159
01:19:26,319 --> 01:19:29,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's another thing I was going to bring

1160
01:19:29,199 --> 01:19:32,439
up as I didn't know that there was a Jewish

1161
01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:34,720
revolution in what thirteen nineteen.

1162
01:19:35,119 --> 01:19:38,199
Speaker 1: Oh, thirteen ninety one the other Yeah, that I was

1163
01:19:38,239 --> 01:19:42,880
reading another source on that the other day. Yeah, that's

1164
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:47,319
considered to be a pogrom. Yeah, that rose up and

1165
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:52,680
they they were put down, put down hard. Yeah, I

1166
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:55,720
mean there was no there was no mercy on that one.

1167
01:19:56,640 --> 01:20:00,840
Speaker 2: So that the conversos, yeah, I think they dealt with them.

1168
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 1: Well, it's a converted leave, yeah, I mean convert relief.

1169
01:20:05,439 --> 01:20:09,159
Speaker 2: I mean a little bit. Yeah, you know, it's I

1170
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:13,560
think it's missed by a lot of nominal Christians that uh,

1171
01:20:14,359 --> 01:20:16,800
and Michael Jones hits on this all the time. It's like,

1172
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:21,359
your duty is to convert the Jews. Yeah, but if

1173
01:20:21,359 --> 01:20:22,920
you were to ever come out and say that in

1174
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:27,039
any official capacity as any type of religious institution, you

1175
01:20:27,079 --> 01:20:30,279
would be immediately tossed with the fire. Yeah.

1176
01:20:30,319 --> 01:20:33,640
Speaker 1: I mean Tim Kelly from the Our Interesting Times podcast

1177
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:37,119
is a you know, he knows Michael Jones has him

1178
01:20:37,159 --> 01:20:38,159
on at least once a month.

1179
01:20:38,319 --> 01:20:39,319
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and you.

1180
01:20:39,319 --> 01:20:41,159
Speaker 1: Know Tim said that. He said it on my show

1181
01:20:41,239 --> 01:20:43,279
or when I was on his show one of the times.

1182
01:20:43,279 --> 01:20:45,840
I can't remember, but he's like yeah, he's like, well,

1183
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:49,760
I mean he's like half of my podcast is complaining,

1184
01:20:50,159 --> 01:20:54,600
complaining about you know, these Jewish elites and everything, and

1185
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:58,039
really the only way, you know, his way to deal

1186
01:20:58,119 --> 01:21:00,039
with them is they have to be converted. They I

1187
01:21:00,079 --> 01:21:06,680
mean not you know, they need to find Christ. But yeah,

1188
01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:08,000
you say that and people.

1189
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:10,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's literally the Christian answer.

1190
01:21:11,359 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you say that, and it's just like

1191
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:18,680
all right, well, you know you're some you know, you're

1192
01:21:19,199 --> 01:21:20,720
an inquisitor of some sort.

1193
01:21:21,039 --> 01:21:24,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. I suck at it. That's one thing that I

1194
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:28,199
suck at is evangelization. I know, it's like our duty

1195
01:21:28,239 --> 01:21:30,800
to spread the word. But I also know that I'm

1196
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:34,399
retarded and uh, I have the memory of a goldfish.

1197
01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:36,199
So I'm not very good at quoting scripture.

1198
01:21:38,039 --> 01:21:40,439
Speaker 1: And that's why you why you became a Catholic.

1199
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:46,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't need to now. I

1200
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:48,640
heard a couple of times a week, and I'm good.

1201
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:52,279
Speaker 1: I've told people that, like in when I went to

1202
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:58,319
the Jesuit school I went to we studied scripture. Oh yeah,

1203
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:01,720
we like we study people. I find that hard to believe.

1204
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's I mean I went through a rigorous,

1205
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:13,720
just invest investigative process about you know, all everything I

1206
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:16,079
hear about the Catholic Church, like why do they do this?

1207
01:22:16,279 --> 01:22:21,760
Why is there liturgical structure? Why is their liturgy structured

1208
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:25,880
like this? And they always managed to base it on

1209
01:22:26,239 --> 01:22:31,279
scripture or tradition, And at least in my in my

1210
01:22:31,399 --> 01:22:34,399
idiot brain, I think I was being pretty objective when

1211
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:36,880
I was kind of going through my crisis of faith,

1212
01:22:39,159 --> 01:22:42,319
Like it seems satisfactory.

1213
01:22:43,359 --> 01:22:46,600
Speaker 1: Maybe not, somebody, let's get out of here for an

1214
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:48,479
hour and a half. I did a live streamer earlier.

1215
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:52,319
Speaker 2: I'm dying, yep, go to bed, Go to bed old Man.

1216
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:54,960
Speaker 1: T l E. Timeline Earth.

1217
01:22:55,399 --> 01:22:57,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you can find me on a Timeline Earth

1218
01:22:58,039 --> 01:23:02,720
sometimes more or less, and then you can also find

1219
01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:06,479
me on Twitter at BTWA underscore returns.

1220
01:23:07,199 --> 01:23:09,520
Speaker 1: All right, thank you very much. Until the next one.

1221
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:11,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you very much for having me.

1222
01:23:12,399 --> 01:23:15,199
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanana Show.

1223
01:23:16,359 --> 01:23:20,279
Aaron's back and we're gonna talk about torture and stuff

1224
01:23:20,319 --> 01:23:20,600
like that.

1225
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:23,800
Speaker 2: Hey, doing air, I am rock hard right now?

1226
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:25,319
Speaker 1: You ready for it?

1227
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:25,760
Speaker 3: Oh?

1228
01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to just jump in?

1229
01:23:27,079 --> 01:23:27,319
Speaker 3: Let me.

1230
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:29,479
Speaker 1: Let me get the screen up so we can look

1231
01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:29,680
at this.

1232
01:23:30,239 --> 01:23:32,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'll stop you if I have any valuable

1233
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:34,680
insights or just insights.

1234
01:23:35,279 --> 01:23:40,479
Speaker 1: Awesome. All right, there's five letters in this, and I

1235
01:23:40,479 --> 01:23:42,600
don't know that we're gonna do every letter, but I

1236
01:23:42,640 --> 01:23:44,359
looked at the second letter and just the way it

1237
01:23:44,399 --> 01:23:47,319
started out was, you know, like amazing. But it's also

1238
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:50,560
shorter than the first letter, and this gets into some

1239
01:23:50,640 --> 01:23:53,560
things the second the first letter didn't. So if I

1240
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:56,239
see any overlap in other letters, I'm gonna skip over them.

1241
01:23:56,439 --> 01:24:02,560
But all right, So to Maestro talking to an anonymous

1242
01:24:02,720 --> 01:24:10,199
Russian nobleman after the supposition that the Inquisition is a

1243
01:24:10,239 --> 01:24:15,159
purely ecclesiastical tribunal, and that priests can condemn men to death.

1244
01:24:15,479 --> 01:24:19,359
After this, there needed but one other supposition to complete

1245
01:24:19,359 --> 01:24:24,920
the absurd phantom of malevolent ignorance, namely that the Inquisition

1246
01:24:25,119 --> 01:24:29,039
condemned men for their simple opinions, and that a Jew,

1247
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:33,199
for example, was burnt for no other offense than being

1248
01:24:33,319 --> 01:24:38,640
purely and simply a Jew. This, indeed, is an exertion

1249
01:24:39,159 --> 01:24:43,159
which has been so often repeated that multitudes actually believe

1250
01:24:43,199 --> 01:24:50,359
the preposterous tale among the least excusable, among the least

1251
01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:56,439
excusable calumniators of the insulted institution. I regret and am

1252
01:24:56,520 --> 01:25:02,920
surprised to find so distinguished a character Montesque, But so

1253
01:25:03,079 --> 01:25:06,640
it is, we, unfortunately see this great writer with the

1254
01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:13,560
boldest intrepidity, intrepid intrepidity, pouring out the most virulent language

1255
01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:17,840
against it on the occasion of a pretended remonstrance of

1256
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:22,199
a pretended jew us. He even makes this the subject

1257
01:25:22,279 --> 01:25:24,359
of a chapter in his Espirit de.

1258
01:25:27,119 --> 01:25:27,800
Speaker 2: Montesquie.

1259
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:33,640
Speaker 1: Now, the fact is that the very idea of burning

1260
01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:36,640
a young innocent girl in this too, in one of

1261
01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:40,159
the great grand capitals of Europe, for no other offense

1262
01:25:40,239 --> 01:25:43,039
than that of believing in her own religion. There is

1263
01:25:43,279 --> 01:25:47,840
in this something too horrible to be conceived. The reality

1264
01:25:47,880 --> 01:25:51,279
of such act would form a national crime sufficient to

1265
01:25:51,319 --> 01:25:54,840
call down the deepest disgrace upon a nation, Nay, perhaps

1266
01:25:54,960 --> 01:26:00,000
even upon a century. I'm getting I'm getting ideas.

1267
01:26:01,640 --> 01:26:06,359
Speaker 2: I think I see where this is going. Yeah, this

1268
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:10,880
is kind of thing.

1269
01:26:11,359 --> 01:26:18,199
Speaker 1: History repeats itself a lot, doesn't it. The accusations repeat

1270
01:26:18,239 --> 01:26:21,960
themselves a lot. But happily the whole tale is a

1271
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:28,239
pitiful calumny, disgraceful only to the writer whose malignant ingenuity

1272
01:26:28,359 --> 01:26:33,039
invented it. How long, then, has it been allowed to culminate?

1273
01:26:33,199 --> 01:26:35,680
Why does he keep using this word over and over again?

1274
01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:40,239
Culminate nations and to insult the institutions which they have

1275
01:26:40,359 --> 01:26:44,600
thought proper to establish among themselves? Or where is the

1276
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:48,079
decency or the justice of attributing to these institutions acts

1277
01:26:48,159 --> 01:26:50,159
of the most atrocious tyranny?

1278
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:56,319
Speaker 2: This has some very striking similarities to a more recent

1279
01:26:56,439 --> 01:26:57,239
historical event.

1280
01:26:59,720 --> 01:27:03,000
Speaker 1: And to do this, moreover, not only without the sanction

1281
01:27:03,159 --> 01:27:06,239
of any testimony or proof, but in face of the

1282
01:27:06,239 --> 01:27:10,640
most notorious evidences to the contrary in Spain and in

1283
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:15,000
Portugal equally, as in fact, it is the case everywhere

1284
01:27:15,319 --> 01:27:24,760
no one is ever molested who keeps himself quiet. I

1285
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:28,560
heard that Charles Haywood recently. I think Tommy Simmons was

1286
01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:30,920
talking to him and they were talking about like a

1287
01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:35,880
red Caesar, and Charles had made the point. He's like,

1288
01:27:37,279 --> 01:27:39,760
and people on the right are worried about that. He's like,

1289
01:27:40,359 --> 01:27:42,560
as long as you're not a parasite, what are you

1290
01:27:42,600 --> 01:27:43,199
worried about?

1291
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:48,079
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I would prefer, Like,

1292
01:27:49,119 --> 01:27:51,600
if I were to be an anti authoritarian, I would

1293
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:54,840
still prefer right wing takeover, only because I wouldn't have

1294
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:57,079
a whole lot to worry about. My preferences already a

1295
01:27:57,119 --> 01:28:00,640
line mostly and the ones that don't I and I

1296
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:03,800
can play the game. Yeah, that's pretty much what it

1297
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:06,119
comes down to. Can you play the game with with?

1298
01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:10,039
You know, progressive technocracy? Not so much.

1299
01:28:13,159 --> 01:28:17,119
Speaker 1: As for the imprudent enthusiast who dogmatizes and disturbs the

1300
01:28:17,119 --> 01:28:20,760
public order of things. He, if checked in his career,

1301
01:28:21,239 --> 01:28:24,359
has no one to complain of but himself. This is

1302
01:28:24,399 --> 01:28:27,640
nowhere in any nation a well regulated There is nowhere

1303
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:31,119
in any nation a well regulated government. But what imposes

1304
01:28:31,199 --> 01:28:35,600
restraints or some punishment or other upon the daring attempts

1305
01:28:35,680 --> 01:28:37,319
to overturn religion.

1306
01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're witnessing that right now with our current religion,

1307
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:45,439
our current national religion. Any attempts to overthrow it or

1308
01:28:45,479 --> 01:28:48,039
criticize it are dealt with swiftly.

1309
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:51,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the inquisition has already started here. I think

1310
01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:53,880
we made that clear the last episode.

1311
01:28:54,159 --> 01:28:57,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, they're not They're not burning us, but they're

1312
01:28:58,079 --> 01:29:01,279
you know, burning our lively odes gleefully.

1313
01:29:03,439 --> 01:29:05,720
Speaker 1: No one has any right to demand of the Kings

1314
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:08,680
of Spain, why or for what reasons they have thought

1315
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:12,000
proper to ordain such and such punishments for such and

1316
01:29:12,079 --> 01:29:16,159
such offenses. They knew best what were the ons and

1317
01:29:16,239 --> 01:29:19,720
the interests of the nation. They knew the character of

1318
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:22,560
their enemies, and they restrained them, and the way which

1319
01:29:23,159 --> 01:29:27,600
which they judged most prudent. The grand and only question,

1320
01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:32,000
and this too incontestable, is this that, in regard to

1321
01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:34,520
the offenses of which I am speaking, no one is

1322
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:37,720
ever punished but in virtue of a universal and well

1323
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:41,800
known law, according to established and invariable forms of justice,

1324
01:29:42,119 --> 01:29:46,880
and by lawfully constituted judges deriving their whole authority from

1325
01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:50,359
the king and acting completely under his control.

1326
01:29:52,520 --> 01:29:57,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean at the time, I'm sure that made

1327
01:29:57,279 --> 01:29:59,720
a whole lot of sense, and it was, you know,

1328
01:30:00,279 --> 01:30:05,399
generally worked out well for people of demeistrous persuasion. Where

1329
01:30:06,159 --> 01:30:10,600
we're experiencing that right now. That's I mean everything, everything

1330
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:15,319
in regards to these norms are are internalized right now

1331
01:30:15,319 --> 01:30:18,119
in the American psyche. Only instead of a king, it's

1332
01:30:18,239 --> 01:30:20,880
you know, democracy or what whatever you want to say.

1333
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:28,880
It is progress equality. But yeah, I mean, so, I

1334
01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:31,199
guess one way to look at this, uh, if you

1335
01:30:31,279 --> 01:30:36,039
want to parse out what we can what we can

1336
01:30:36,079 --> 01:30:41,920
apply today is like, like we said in the last episode,

1337
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:45,159
like you just said, picture ourselves as subjects of an

1338
01:30:45,199 --> 01:30:48,159
inquisition right now, only the inquisition that we were taught

1339
01:30:48,159 --> 01:30:52,359
at as you know, as as kids in school, like

1340
01:30:52,399 --> 01:30:55,439
that version of the inquisition they are now projecting onto.

1341
01:30:55,279 --> 01:31:02,840
Speaker 1: Us right under the circumstances. Then, how ill founded are

1342
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:07,000
all the declamations against the tribunal of the inquisition, and

1343
01:31:07,079 --> 01:31:10,560
how little reason has any Spaniard to complain? It is

1344
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:14,439
true man justly dislikes to be judged by man, because,

1345
01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:18,560
knowing himself, he knows also of what man is capable

1346
01:31:18,800 --> 01:31:21,600
when once he is either blinded by his passions or

1347
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:25,600
pushed on by prejudice. But where there is a question,

1348
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:29,479
but where there is question of law, to this, men

1349
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:32,800
ought to be submissive. There ought to there ought not

1350
01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:36,239
to attempt to. They ought not to attempt to disturb

1351
01:31:36,319 --> 01:31:43,680
the public peace. Libertarians, blown the fuck out reason and

1352
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:47,560
instincts of nature, admit no better rule in these points

1353
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:51,640
than the general, enlightened and disinterested will of a legislature

1354
01:31:52,000 --> 01:31:56,880
substituted everywhere in place of the particular, ignorant and partial

1355
01:31:56,920 --> 01:32:00,600
will of man. See the biggest album with this.

1356
01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:02,960
Speaker 2: Is impartial legislature.

1357
01:32:03,680 --> 01:32:07,199
Speaker 1: Well, well, I mean everyone's going to hold the mirror,

1358
01:32:07,319 --> 01:32:11,119
hold this up to the mirror of the legislature they

1359
01:32:11,119 --> 01:32:13,840
live under, and considering the one the one that we

1360
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:18,039
live under, right now, you know, I mean right, you know,

1361
01:32:18,439 --> 01:32:22,680
proper right. People on the right are appalled by it,

1362
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:27,760
people on the left applaud it, or I don't even

1363
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:31,680
know if it's left. I mean, yeah, it's it's it's

1364
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:38,119
a weird dichotomy. Now, it's like people who it's it's

1365
01:32:38,119 --> 01:32:39,760
hard to describe.

1366
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:45,359
Speaker 2: Your your episode on the consequences of the Civil Rights Act.

1367
01:32:47,000 --> 01:32:52,039
I'm sorry, I forget his name, the co host of Forgetting. Yeah,

1368
01:32:52,079 --> 01:32:54,560
he's exactly right that people are drawn to power, and

1369
01:32:54,600 --> 01:32:58,439
they will subsume their identity, even even to the point

1370
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:02,840
that they that they believe it, in order to maintain safety.

1371
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:05,720
Speaker 1: And like.

1372
01:33:07,520 --> 01:33:12,359
Speaker 2: At one point, what Demeistra is saying here is how

1373
01:33:12,439 --> 01:33:15,960
people did that. They you know, submitted themselves to the

1374
01:33:15,960 --> 01:33:18,960
will of a monarch and under the assumption that the

1375
01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:23,479
monarch knowses people the best and acts prudently in you know,

1376
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:27,359
meeting out, meeting out punishment and uh enforcing the law.

1377
01:33:28,079 --> 01:33:35,000
And it was the the people outside of that, like

1378
01:33:35,000 --> 01:33:40,840
like we're going to read later the Jays that were

1379
01:33:40,960 --> 01:33:44,119
the ones. I mean, I don't want to say they're

1380
01:33:44,199 --> 01:33:46,520
kind of in our position, but you know, they were

1381
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:49,399
the ones trying to overthrow a culture that they disagreed with.

1382
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:52,159
And I don't I'm not saying I agree with them,

1383
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:57,079
but they were eventually they were successfully able to do that,

1384
01:33:57,199 --> 01:33:58,960
you know, in the early eighteen hundreds, and that's why

1385
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:03,239
Demistress pissed off in these letters. And you know, like

1386
01:34:03,319 --> 01:34:06,880
it kind of gives us hope. I mean, I think

1387
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:11,119
up about ten IQ points lower than the average Askinazi

1388
01:34:11,239 --> 01:34:12,119
but I don't know.

1389
01:34:15,079 --> 01:34:18,279
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's get up to that point. If

1390
01:34:18,279 --> 01:34:21,399
they're far, If therefore the laws of Spain compose and

1391
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:23,840
ordained for the peace and security of the whole nation,

1392
01:34:24,560 --> 01:34:28,039
If these inflict the punishments of exile, imprisonment, or even

1393
01:34:28,119 --> 01:34:31,760
death itself against the declared and public enemies of religion.

1394
01:34:32,159 --> 01:34:35,319
In this case, neither should anyone excuse the criminal who

1395
01:34:35,399 --> 01:34:39,920
has thus called down the punishment upon himself. Neither should

1396
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:43,920
the criminal himself complain, seeing that he promised to the

1397
01:34:43,960 --> 01:34:48,239
most simple means of avoiding it, that of holding his tongue.

1398
01:34:48,479 --> 01:34:51,119
Speaker 2: Yes, all you have to do is shut your fat

1399
01:34:51,199 --> 01:34:55,640
mouth and then you'll be fine. Nobody wants to hear you.

1400
01:34:56,840 --> 01:35:03,840
Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. The difference today is we you're

1401
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:06,880
guilty if you keep your mouth shut. Yeah, you have

1402
01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:09,039
to be actively anti racist.

1403
01:35:09,279 --> 01:35:13,079
Speaker 2: Silence is violence, yep. Yeah, Yeah, that's the inversion.

1404
01:35:13,720 --> 01:35:14,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1405
01:35:14,840 --> 01:35:17,760
Speaker 1: In regard to the Jews in particular, everyone knows or

1406
01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:21,279
should know that the Inquisition does not in reality punish

1407
01:35:21,359 --> 01:35:25,399
any of these save such as relapse, that is, such

1408
01:35:25,479 --> 01:35:31,640
as having solemnly adopted the Christian religion return again to Judaism.

1409
01:35:32,079 --> 01:35:33,720
That's what this was it was the same thing with

1410
01:35:33,760 --> 01:35:37,039
the Muslims. It was the same. Yeah, it was the

1411
01:35:37,079 --> 01:35:37,680
same deal.

1412
01:35:38,159 --> 01:35:42,279
Speaker 2: I mean from the last letter I I understood that

1413
01:35:42,920 --> 01:35:47,119
they were offered, you know, leave the contrary. You know,

1414
01:35:47,399 --> 01:35:50,520
you could practice your religion all you want, leave yep.

1415
01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:54,920
And then they said, okay, well, well we'll convert to Christianity.

1416
01:35:55,039 --> 01:35:57,640
And then what are you saying right here? They go back,

1417
01:35:57,800 --> 01:36:00,600
you know, they relapse and uh, like do you want

1418
01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:04,279
like you're now you're just purposefully subverting the culture that

1419
01:36:04,319 --> 01:36:07,039
we're that the people in power are trying to create.

1420
01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:11,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and you.

1421
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:16,319
Speaker 1: Go back. There was a time when when people gave

1422
01:36:16,359 --> 01:36:20,159
their word, they meant something. They yeah, they understood that

1423
01:36:20,159 --> 01:36:23,239
there were consequences if they were proven to be lying.

1424
01:36:23,840 --> 01:36:27,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah. This was back when reputation was a thing,

1425
01:36:27,319 --> 01:36:30,079
and uh, you know, how your community felt about you,

1426
01:36:30,119 --> 01:36:35,239
how trustworthy you were, how how respectable you were, meant something.

1427
01:36:35,319 --> 01:36:38,279
And now we live in an online age now and

1428
01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:40,760
reputation doesn't mean doesn't mean a whole lot.

1429
01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, the laws are indeed more or less severe against

1430
01:36:45,560 --> 01:36:49,079
these as well as against the preachers of Judaism. But

1431
01:36:49,239 --> 01:36:52,560
then the remedy was easy. The Christian or the converted

1432
01:36:52,640 --> 01:36:57,239
Jew who chose against Judeas were always at full liberty

1433
01:36:57,319 --> 01:36:58,880
to quit the country.

1434
01:36:59,279 --> 01:37:02,720
Speaker 2: Huh.

1435
01:37:02,840 --> 01:37:06,600
Speaker 1: They knew, as did also the Jew who undertook to

1436
01:37:06,640 --> 01:37:11,119
seduce to christian They knew to what they exposed themselves

1437
01:37:11,119 --> 01:37:15,640
by remaining. No individual has any right to complain of

1438
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:18,800
a law which is equally made for all.

1439
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:23,800
Speaker 2: Yes, if you don't like our rules, get out, or

1440
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:26,199
if you don't like the letter of the law that

1441
01:37:26,239 --> 01:37:28,359
you are knowingly violating, then.

1442
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:34,199
Speaker 1: And anyone who does you know, studies read Sulcianes and

1443
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:43,039
or or Sombart who go over a history of Jewish

1444
01:37:43,039 --> 01:37:47,119
communities in you know, countries in that they went to,

1445
01:37:47,359 --> 01:37:51,399
that they that they settled in, knows that they are

1446
01:37:51,439 --> 01:37:56,640
constantly over and over again arguing for special rights.

1447
01:37:57,239 --> 01:38:01,600
Speaker 2: Right. It's yeah, it's not just that they're practicing Judaism.

1448
01:38:01,640 --> 01:38:04,920
It's not that they're lighting a minora and going to

1449
01:38:05,000 --> 01:38:08,600
temple like That's if if that was all they were doing,

1450
01:38:08,640 --> 01:38:12,640
then this wouldn't be a thing. But there's there's a

1451
01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:16,319
whole other bag of tricks that come with that.

1452
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:23,479
Speaker 1: Men loudly declaim against the tortures employed in the tribunals

1453
01:38:23,520 --> 01:38:26,640
of the Inquisition and above all against the punishment of

1454
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:31,399
burning inflicted for the crimes against religion. All the thunders

1455
01:38:31,399 --> 01:38:35,960
of eloquence and indignation, particularly among the French infidel writers,

1456
01:38:36,279 --> 01:38:39,239
are directed against these alleged atrocities.

1457
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:45,079
Speaker 2: The fury if he's talking about the Jacobins or the Huguenots.

1458
01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:52,760
Speaker 1: The fury of their declamation gives a pathos to their philosophy. However,

1459
01:38:53,039 --> 01:38:56,680
this vanishes at once if once the subject be but

1460
01:38:56,920 --> 01:39:01,279
calmly considered according to the rules of sober and calculating logic.

1461
01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:05,920
The inquisitors, it is true, did ordain the infliction of

1462
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:10,239
torture for certain crimes against religion. But then they did

1463
01:39:10,279 --> 01:39:12,720
it in the virtue of the laws of Spain, and

1464
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:15,960
because it was prescribed by all the tribunals of that nation.

1465
01:39:17,039 --> 01:39:20,840
It was a punishment adopted anciently by the laws of

1466
01:39:20,920 --> 01:39:24,520
Greece and Rome. Insomuch to Athens, the school of Liberty

1467
01:39:24,640 --> 01:39:28,640
ordained it even in regard of its own free citizens.

1468
01:39:30,039 --> 01:39:33,359
Among modern nations, all these have employed it in order

1469
01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:36,600
to discover the truth. I am not going to examine

1470
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:40,159
how far all this was either wise or unwise, or

1471
01:39:40,199 --> 01:39:43,600
whether in former times there was not as much reason

1472
01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:46,960
to employ the instrument of torture, as now in these days,

1473
01:39:47,319 --> 01:39:50,640
there is every reason to suppress it. Be all this

1474
01:39:50,800 --> 01:39:54,439
as it may, the case is that, since this punishment

1475
01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:57,760
was no more attributable to the Inquisition than to every

1476
01:39:57,840 --> 01:40:01,119
other tribunal, so it is un us to reproach it

1477
01:40:01,199 --> 01:40:07,560
alone with imputation of cruelty. Let the eloquence of the

1478
01:40:08,439 --> 01:40:13,560
virulence of Protestant animosity describe all the horrors, or depict

1479
01:40:13,960 --> 01:40:18,159
in every hateful color, the real or imaginary torments inflicted

1480
01:40:18,199 --> 01:40:21,520
by the judges of the Inquisition. All this, in fact,

1481
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:24,840
matter is little. The blame or the oat or the

1482
01:40:24,880 --> 01:40:28,520
odium rests not with the institution itself, but with the

1483
01:40:28,520 --> 01:40:30,880
policy of the princes who established it.

1484
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:37,000
Speaker 2: This was a less than two hundred years from the

1485
01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:41,920
Thirty Years War. If the Protestants want to point at

1486
01:40:41,960 --> 01:40:46,079
the Catholics and accuse them of uh wrote, you know,

1487
01:40:46,199 --> 01:40:50,800
wrote violence and torture and all these injustices, I mean, look,

1488
01:40:50,840 --> 01:40:53,560
take a look at the Thirty Years War and tell

1489
01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:56,720
me if one side or the other was more humane,

1490
01:40:57,239 --> 01:41:01,720
Like there's I don't know, like it's I'm trying not

1491
01:41:01,800 --> 01:41:06,600
to be like, Oh imagine if imagine, if you imagine

1492
01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:09,960
if the shoes on the other foot, right. But you

1493
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:14,920
know he's right, like, there's that all of this is

1494
01:41:15,359 --> 01:41:22,760
pure propaganda, pure religious, religiously motivated, right, right, rivalrous propaganda.

1495
01:41:22,840 --> 01:41:26,439
And that's fine. But you know, your your average loping

1496
01:41:26,560 --> 01:41:27,880
doesn't really realize that.

1497
01:41:29,640 --> 01:41:30,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1498
01:41:31,199 --> 01:41:35,720
Speaker 1: And you know, once again, when you look back on

1499
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:39,000
on situations like this, much like the arguments that you

1500
01:41:39,159 --> 01:41:47,119
see happening today, the only reason why it isn't restricted

1501
01:41:47,159 --> 01:41:52,279
to academics and clerics today and politicians is because we

1502
01:41:52,359 --> 01:41:56,319
have the Internet and people and we have people have

1503
01:41:56,399 --> 01:42:04,159
access to centuries, millennium of information and they can educate

1504
01:42:04,199 --> 01:42:08,680
themselves about these things and join in the conversation. Back then,

1505
01:42:08,800 --> 01:42:10,600
I mean, who was arguing over this back then?

1506
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:17,439
Speaker 2: It's two people spending waiting two weeks for a response.

1507
01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:21,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then what one does is they write a

1508
01:42:21,239 --> 01:42:23,319
history book and then we start to believe it.

1509
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:25,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So.

1510
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:30,039
Speaker 1: All right, and let me, my lord just remark here

1511
01:42:30,279 --> 01:42:33,000
that according to the report of the Committee of the Cortes,

1512
01:42:33,399 --> 01:42:36,840
not only the inquisitors themselves were obliged to attend at

1513
01:42:36,840 --> 01:42:39,960
the infliction of the torture, but the bishop also was

1514
01:42:40,079 --> 01:42:43,319
ordered to assist at the awful ceremony, although his place

1515
01:42:43,439 --> 01:42:48,520
was usually supplied by his delegate. Now all this presupposes

1516
01:42:48,520 --> 01:42:52,359
and implies and this act of rigor not only a

1517
01:42:52,359 --> 01:42:55,319
great deal of attention, but all the charity that is

1518
01:42:55,359 --> 01:42:56,439
allowed to judges.

1519
01:42:58,560 --> 01:43:02,800
Speaker 2: So again this is him saying, this wasn't the Catholic Church.

1520
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:06,960
All the inquisitors were part of the Catholic Church, but

1521
01:43:07,039 --> 01:43:10,079
they were following the letter of the law of the

1522
01:43:10,119 --> 01:43:11,680
Spanish State. Yep.

1523
01:43:12,479 --> 01:43:15,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, this wasn't. Yeah, this wasn't what we said. It

1524
01:43:16,039 --> 01:43:20,680
was that the Catholic Church was running rampant over Spain

1525
01:43:20,800 --> 01:43:24,199
and had total control over Spain. No, the king and

1526
01:43:24,199 --> 01:43:25,520
the courts has had control.

1527
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:29,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Catholic Church's interest was to make Span Span Catholic.

1528
01:43:29,800 --> 01:43:33,800
Help help make Span Catholic. The Spanish thrones interest was

1529
01:43:33,880 --> 01:43:35,760
to get rid of their enemies.

1530
01:43:36,159 --> 01:43:41,279
Speaker 1: Yep. And not only this, but as every decree of

1531
01:43:41,319 --> 01:43:44,359
any moment, even that of a simple arrest, could on

1532
01:43:44,399 --> 01:43:48,239
no occasion be executed without the previous approbation of the

1533
01:43:48,279 --> 01:43:53,039
Supreme Council. So it is also certain that the preliminary

1534
01:43:53,079 --> 01:43:56,439
sentence or gaining the application of torture was subject to

1535
01:43:56,560 --> 01:44:02,239
the same formality. Under these circumstances, it cannot but be

1536
01:44:02,479 --> 01:44:05,800
owned that this punishment was accompanied in the tribunal. So

1537
01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:10,000
the Inquisition, with every precaution that the nature of things

1538
01:44:10,159 --> 01:44:13,720
admitted should they had.

1539
01:44:13,560 --> 01:44:19,359
Speaker 2: A pretty rigorous bureaucratic system of checks and balances. That's

1540
01:44:19,399 --> 01:44:22,319
That's also what I'm getting from everything he's writing so far.

1541
01:44:22,359 --> 01:44:27,279
As now they they've really they've really kind of cared

1542
01:44:27,319 --> 01:44:30,319
about like making sure they got the right people.

1543
01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:36,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're gonna we'll talk about like some specific cases.

1544
01:44:37,119 --> 01:44:39,199
I don't remember if it's in this letter or or

1545
01:44:40,359 --> 01:44:42,880
the next, but there were a couple of specific cases

1546
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:45,840
that were pretty fun that were one of them was hilarious.

1547
01:44:46,800 --> 01:44:50,720
Speaker 2: I'm kind of waiting for that, Like I'm convinced to Master,

1548
01:44:50,840 --> 01:44:51,960
You've convinced me, all.

1549
01:44:51,920 --> 01:44:58,680
Speaker 1: Right, Should the King of Spain think proper? The should

1550
01:44:58,720 --> 01:45:01,640
the King of Spain think proper to abolish the punishment

1551
01:45:01,680 --> 01:45:06,239
of torture in his dominions as he'd been done, as

1552
01:45:06,399 --> 01:45:10,840
had been done in France, England and Sardinia, etc. He

1553
01:45:10,960 --> 01:45:14,479
would no doubt act wisely, and the very first to

1554
01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:18,920
applaud his conduct would be the inquisitors themselves. But it

1555
01:45:18,960 --> 01:45:22,520
is unjust and unreasonable to reproach them with a practice

1556
01:45:22,560 --> 01:45:29,560
which until lately had always and everywhere prevailed in regard

1557
01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:33,479
to the punishment of burning. This, again, however horrible, was

1558
01:45:33,479 --> 01:45:37,159
still a universal practice. Without referring to the Roman laws

1559
01:45:37,159 --> 01:45:40,199
which sanctioned it, we find that all nations pronounced it

1560
01:45:40,279 --> 01:45:45,720
against such crimes as violated the most sacred laws of religion. Thus,

1561
01:45:45,760 --> 01:45:49,720
throughout Europe it was the custom to burn for sacrilege, parricide,

1562
01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:53,600
and high treason. The latter crime was, according to the

1563
01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:58,399
principles of criminal jurisprudence then adopted, divided into two parts

1564
01:45:58,399 --> 01:46:07,920
divine and human high treason. That today huh, every great

1565
01:46:07,920 --> 01:46:11,199
and enormous crime against religion was considered as an act

1566
01:46:11,239 --> 01:46:15,399
of high treason against God, which therefore could not be

1567
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:19,359
less severely punished than the offense of high treason against man.

1568
01:46:21,359 --> 01:46:27,439
And hence the custom of burning heresy, heresy arcs, and

1569
01:46:27,560 --> 01:46:32,039
obstinate heretics. The fact is that in all ages there

1570
01:46:32,039 --> 01:46:35,479
are certain general notions and ideas which possess and draw

1571
01:46:35,600 --> 01:46:39,039
men after them, and whose wisdom or wants of wisdom

1572
01:46:39,359 --> 01:46:43,319
is never so much as called in question. The reproach

1573
01:46:43,359 --> 01:46:47,399
in such cases should be cast not upon any individual

1574
01:46:47,600 --> 01:46:52,640
but upon the times and upon mankind in general. He's

1575
01:46:52,640 --> 01:46:54,800
appealing to the spirit of the you know, the spirit

1576
01:46:54,800 --> 01:46:56,159
of the age at whatever moment.

1577
01:46:56,560 --> 01:47:01,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, yeah, whatever was his ghost.

1578
01:47:00,720 --> 01:47:03,800
Speaker 2: You know, the punishment of burning is pretty common in

1579
01:47:03,840 --> 01:47:07,920
this time and here here's here's why that's okay.

1580
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:14,560
Speaker 1: I will not enter, lest I should seem to quit

1581
01:47:14,600 --> 01:47:18,279
my subject upon the great question of crimes and punishments.

1582
01:47:18,760 --> 01:47:21,039
I will not examine whether the punishment of death be

1583
01:47:21,319 --> 01:47:24,399
just and useful or not, or whether it be wise

1584
01:47:24,439 --> 01:47:27,560
to increase the severity of punishments according to the atrocity

1585
01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:30,479
of crimes, and what ought to be limits of this

1586
01:47:30,600 --> 01:47:36,119
awful and terrific act. These are all of them questions

1587
01:47:36,119 --> 01:47:39,560
far into that which I am now discussing to acquit

1588
01:47:39,600 --> 01:47:44,800
the inquisition from peculiar reproach or censure. This alone is

1589
01:47:44,880 --> 01:47:48,920
here sufficient that its tribunals judged and decided, like all

1590
01:47:49,000 --> 01:47:53,279
other tribunals everywhere, that they condemned none to death, except

1591
01:47:53,319 --> 01:47:57,319
such as we're notoriously guilty, and that they never acted.

1592
01:47:57,600 --> 01:48:00,640
But as the authorized instruments of the law, awful and

1593
01:48:00,680 --> 01:48:02,840
written will of the sovereign.

1594
01:48:05,960 --> 01:48:08,119
Speaker 2: H can you go back, go back up.

1595
01:48:09,960 --> 01:48:11,800
Speaker 1: Sovereign is capitalized there too.

1596
01:48:11,960 --> 01:48:18,520
Speaker 2: So you so, what was I gonna say? Yeah, it's uh,

1597
01:48:18,600 --> 01:48:24,359
he's definitely subordinating himself to a will that's higher than him. Yeah,

1598
01:48:25,560 --> 01:48:28,239
you know, whether that's the sovereign as in God or

1599
01:48:28,239 --> 01:48:33,239
the sovereign as in you know, the Spanish throne. I

1600
01:48:33,640 --> 01:48:38,640
I myself, I've kind of come around to not being

1601
01:48:38,680 --> 01:48:43,159
a huge fan of capital punishment, and I don't I

1602
01:48:43,159 --> 01:48:45,960
don't get the I don't get the feeling that he

1603
01:48:46,039 --> 01:48:48,039
is a huge fan of capital punishment either.

1604
01:48:52,560 --> 01:48:59,720
Speaker 1: Well. Yeah, I mean it's really once at this point,

1605
01:49:01,560 --> 01:49:03,760
he's all right, I guess he's witnessed a French revolution.

1606
01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1607
01:49:04,920 --> 01:49:08,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean that wasn't capital punishment.

1608
01:49:08,399 --> 01:49:13,000
Speaker 2: That was just straight up execution, summary execution.

1609
01:49:13,680 --> 01:49:21,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, I will let me see question I said,

1610
01:49:21,479 --> 01:49:26,159
there are Okay, there we go. It is, however, my

1611
01:49:26,279 --> 01:49:30,600
opinion that the Haress, the arc, and the propagators of

1612
01:49:30,640 --> 01:49:34,239
impiety ought very properly to be ranked in the class

1613
01:49:34,239 --> 01:49:37,880
of great criminals. What deceives us in these points is

1614
01:49:37,880 --> 01:49:41,199
the unfortunate circumstance of our judging in these matters under

1615
01:49:41,239 --> 01:49:45,760
the influence of that indifference, which in these times pervades

1616
01:49:45,840 --> 01:49:49,319
everything relating to religion, whereas we ought to take as

1617
01:49:49,359 --> 01:49:52,840
the rule and measure of our judgment, the gone by

1618
01:49:53,159 --> 01:49:57,359
zeal of olden days, which men, if they like, may

1619
01:49:57,399 --> 01:50:01,159
call fanaticism. The word making no difference in the thing,

1620
01:50:02,479 --> 01:50:06,479
I think he may be called appealing to.

1621
01:50:06,399 --> 01:50:06,880
Speaker 2: The uh.

1622
01:50:08,800 --> 01:50:14,199
Speaker 1: Talking about the revolution. Here in some way, shape or form,

1623
01:50:14,279 --> 01:50:17,760
it looks like he may be referring to it. The

1624
01:50:17,800 --> 01:50:22,079
modern sophist, seated at his ease in his cabinet, cares

1625
01:50:22,119 --> 01:50:25,279
not one jot whether the doctrines of Luther were the

1626
01:50:25,279 --> 01:50:29,000
cause of the thirty years Frightful War or not. But

1627
01:50:29,079 --> 01:50:32,880
the legislators of ancient days, knowing well the consequences and

1628
01:50:32,960 --> 01:50:36,479
miseries which to propagation of heresy is calculated to produce,

1629
01:50:36,880 --> 01:50:40,760
and has produced, in society shaking its very foundations and

1630
01:50:40,800 --> 01:50:45,880
deluging its walks, not unfrequently with blood. Knowing this, they

1631
01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:49,199
deemed it an act of prudence to punish the crime

1632
01:50:49,479 --> 01:50:51,399
with severity and rigor.

1633
01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:57,560
Speaker 2: Look what happens when you stop, A new religion takes over,

1634
01:50:57,680 --> 01:51:00,880
and then they punished the crime verity and rigor.

1635
01:51:03,840 --> 01:51:08,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think most you know, anyone who's listening, who's

1636
01:51:08,479 --> 01:51:15,159
you know, just absolutely appalled. They're just appalled because religion

1637
01:51:15,199 --> 01:51:18,119
had anything, you know, had anything to do with this.

1638
01:51:19,720 --> 01:51:23,920
Yeah no, no, God's no. Master's kind of people who

1639
01:51:24,039 --> 01:51:30,680
just yeah, have no have no understanding of what of

1640
01:51:30,760 --> 01:51:34,119
what these times were like, and of.

1641
01:51:35,720 --> 01:51:39,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a classic case of applying modern

1642
01:51:39,119 --> 01:51:42,439
standards to history and then judging them that way, and

1643
01:51:42,479 --> 01:51:47,279
then of course after that, using that for a you know, uh,

1644
01:51:47,399 --> 01:51:49,199
persuasive argument.

1645
01:51:49,720 --> 01:51:53,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, all right.

1646
01:51:53,880 --> 01:51:57,560
Speaker 1: It is true. There is no longer now any reason

1647
01:51:57,600 --> 01:52:01,000
for entertaining the same alarms. And yet when we reflect

1648
01:52:01,039 --> 01:52:05,399
that the Inquisition, by its restrictions and authority, would have

1649
01:52:05,520 --> 01:52:09,960
prevented the French Revolution, it is hard to say whether

1650
01:52:10,039 --> 01:52:14,319
the sovereign, who holy and without reserve, gave us this instrument,

1651
01:52:14,560 --> 01:52:18,920
would not in reality be doing an injury to humanity.

1652
01:52:20,199 --> 01:52:27,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, if if if you had a way to

1653
01:52:27,479 --> 01:52:31,640
prevent the worst catastrophe of your life, but it involved

1654
01:52:31,720 --> 01:52:34,800
violating people's rights, would.

1655
01:52:34,039 --> 01:52:37,720
Speaker 1: You do That's a great question, isn't it?

1656
01:52:40,479 --> 01:52:42,880
Speaker 2: Would you say the N word to save ten waves?

1657
01:52:45,039 --> 01:52:53,079
Speaker 1: It like twenty times today? I live in Alabama. Just

1658
01:52:53,279 --> 01:52:59,640
kidding at a time, jazz kidding. The abbit of Arak

1659
01:53:00,199 --> 01:53:02,920
is the first French writer that I know who has

1660
01:53:02,960 --> 01:53:06,600
spoken with consistency and wisdom on the subject of the Inquisition.

1661
01:53:07,520 --> 01:53:11,199
But even at that period, in seventeen thirty one, he despaired,

1662
01:53:11,279 --> 01:53:14,520
amid the clamors of ignorance and prejudice, of making any

1663
01:53:14,560 --> 01:53:20,199
favorable impressions in its regard. I am convinced. He says

1664
01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:23,159
that if the men who declaim so loudly against the

1665
01:53:23,199 --> 01:53:26,640
Inquisition considered only the characters of the person who compose it,

1666
01:53:27,000 --> 01:53:29,399
they would speak of it very differently from what they do.

1667
01:53:30,199 --> 01:53:32,359
But what is the most to be lamented is the

1668
01:53:32,399 --> 01:53:36,039
fact that such are the public prejudices. I do not

1669
01:53:36,279 --> 01:53:39,800
entertain the slenderest hope of engaging my fellow countrymen to

1670
01:53:39,880 --> 01:53:46,439
believe that the virtues which particularly characterize the inquisitors are circumspection, wisdom, justice,

1671
01:53:46,479 --> 01:53:50,600
and integrity. The man who is punished or reprimanded by

1672
01:53:50,600 --> 01:53:53,960
this triumbunal must be either a great criminal or a

1673
01:53:54,119 --> 01:53:56,159
very weak personage.

1674
01:53:56,960 --> 01:54:03,640
Speaker 2: So in my Lawlberd days, I I completely empathize with

1675
01:54:03,680 --> 01:54:06,920
this guy because I knew a lot of you know you. You

1676
01:54:06,720 --> 01:54:10,239
actually introduced me to a lot of people that, uh,

1677
01:54:10,359 --> 01:54:13,159
you know, we were in the higher rungs in the

1678
01:54:13,239 --> 01:54:17,880
ladder and were awesome people. And I just I I

1679
01:54:18,000 --> 01:54:20,119
had it in my head that if if if people

1680
01:54:20,239 --> 01:54:23,760
just knew how how great these guys were, like, we

1681
01:54:23,800 --> 01:54:29,039
could win. And unfortunately that's that's not the case. Nobody.

1682
01:54:29,199 --> 01:54:34,399
Nobody looks at the author of well maybe we do sometimes,

1683
01:54:34,399 --> 01:54:37,880
but nobody looks at the author of a of a

1684
01:54:38,000 --> 01:54:43,479
of a manifesto or or I don't know, a leaflet

1685
01:54:43,720 --> 01:54:46,520
like they look at the content and and if if,

1686
01:54:46,560 --> 01:54:50,279
if you're ideologically opposed to them, then they're gonna pick

1687
01:54:50,319 --> 01:54:53,600
that apart, regardless of how you know, regardless of if

1688
01:54:53,600 --> 01:54:56,399
they if they could have a beer with the author. Right,

1689
01:54:57,000 --> 01:55:00,439
So that's kind of again a scales fall from the

1690
01:55:00,479 --> 01:55:02,880
eyes moment, like nobody gives a shit about how how

1691
01:55:02,920 --> 01:55:03,960
good of a person you are?

1692
01:55:04,880 --> 01:55:07,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and that can only really be done

1693
01:55:07,399 --> 01:55:10,479
on a personal level anyway.

1694
01:55:10,479 --> 01:55:14,039
Speaker 2: Absolutely, oh yeah, yeah, all right.

1695
01:55:14,479 --> 01:55:17,960
Speaker 1: In fact, whoever candidly considers the quality of its judges

1696
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:22,000
cannot but allow all this. In the first place, nothing

1697
01:55:22,039 --> 01:55:25,680
can be more upright, more learned, or more incorruptible than

1698
01:55:25,720 --> 01:55:29,520
the grand tribunals of Spain. And then if to this

1699
01:55:29,760 --> 01:55:32,960
general character we add that of the Catholic priesthood. It

1700
01:55:33,039 --> 01:55:36,880
is impossible, even without any appeal to experience, not to

1701
01:55:36,960 --> 01:55:39,800
feel and be convinced that nothing in the universe can

1702
01:55:39,840 --> 01:55:44,119
really be more calm and gentle, more impartial and humane

1703
01:55:44,479 --> 01:55:46,279
than the Tribunal of the Inquisition.

1704
01:55:47,399 --> 01:55:50,239
Speaker 2: He makes a lot of assumptions. I mean, maybe it is,

1705
01:55:50,359 --> 01:55:53,880
maybe that was the case in his time, like the

1706
01:55:54,399 --> 01:56:00,319
priesthood was looked upon as you know, the lambs. But yeah,

1707
01:56:00,359 --> 01:56:02,039
that would be a that'll be a tough sell.

1708
01:56:01,960 --> 01:56:06,079
Speaker 1: Now, I mean they they've also suffered a lot in

1709
01:56:06,119 --> 01:56:12,319
the last thirty years. Yeah, yeah, they It was funny

1710
01:56:12,359 --> 01:56:15,279
all that, all that surfaced right around the time when

1711
01:56:16,039 --> 01:56:18,159
a certain group was cut off from the Bank of Rome.

1712
01:56:18,359 --> 01:56:22,119
Oh well, let's let's let's let's leave that alone.

1713
01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:25,560
Speaker 2: Let's let's not get into the statistics of the sexual

1714
01:56:25,560 --> 01:56:33,359
orientation of alone. Yeah, that's my favorite thing. Yeah, every

1715
01:56:33,359 --> 01:56:37,760
time somebody says, like pedophile priests, I just put gay asterisks.

1716
01:56:38,079 --> 01:56:41,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean most people don't know

1717
01:56:41,399 --> 01:56:48,159
that the Italian and Irish mothers. Yeah, in the mid

1718
01:56:48,560 --> 01:56:53,239
mid twentieth century, to even to into the seventies and eighties,

1719
01:56:54,600 --> 01:56:57,000
push if they knew, they had a gay son. They

1720
01:56:57,039 --> 01:56:58,439
pushed them into the priests.

1721
01:56:58,800 --> 01:57:08,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, there was so much systemic, systemic celebration of homosexuality.

1722
01:57:09,039 --> 01:57:11,560
Like I think I might have mentioned it on what

1723
01:57:12,279 --> 01:57:15,199
a different show of yours I was on. But even

1724
01:57:15,239 --> 01:57:20,199
in seminary they did get I forget where I read it,

1725
01:57:20,279 --> 01:57:23,359
but and if anybody can pull it up, I'd be grateful.

1726
01:57:23,439 --> 01:57:28,359
But in seminary they would do exposure therapy where they

1727
01:57:28,399 --> 01:57:32,479
would show a group of seminarians gay porn for hours

1728
01:57:32,479 --> 01:57:37,279
on end, you know, all together. And that was meant

1729
01:57:37,319 --> 01:57:40,399
to expose them and discuss them so much that they

1730
01:57:40,479 --> 01:57:43,800
just couldn't you know, they couldn't tolerate it anymore. But

1731
01:57:45,000 --> 01:57:52,840
it had predictably the opposite results.

1732
01:57:52,239 --> 01:57:55,279
Speaker 1: In this tribunal, which is established indeed to strike and

1733
01:57:55,319 --> 01:57:59,000
alarm the imagination, and which therefore, in order to produce

1734
01:57:59,039 --> 01:58:03,199
a designed effect, ought necessarily be surrounded with certain severe

1735
01:58:03,239 --> 01:58:08,039
and mysterious forms in this tribunal. Nevertheless, the religious principle

1736
01:58:08,079 --> 01:58:14,399
preserves always its leading and unextinguishable character. Even amid the

1737
01:58:14,520 --> 01:58:18,039
terrors or threats of punishment. It is still merciful and mild.

1738
01:58:18,520 --> 01:58:20,960
It is because the priesthood forms a portion of this

1739
01:58:21,039 --> 01:58:25,279
tribunal that it ought not, that it ought not, does

1740
01:58:25,359 --> 01:58:29,720
not resemble any other tribunal. In reality, the very device

1741
01:58:29,800 --> 01:58:33,640
of its banners, mercy and justice, is such as is

1742
01:58:33,800 --> 01:58:39,960
unknown to any other tribunal of the universe elsewhere elsewhere,

1743
01:58:40,039 --> 01:58:43,840
in every country, justice alone is the appendage and prerogative

1744
01:58:43,960 --> 01:58:48,479
of their tribunals. Mercy is the exclusive attribute and property

1745
01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:52,239
of the sovereign. The judges would even be deemed rebels

1746
01:58:52,640 --> 01:58:56,439
did they presume of themselves to grant pardons, for this

1747
01:58:56,479 --> 01:58:59,800
would be abrogating the rights and privileges of the sovereignty.

1748
01:59:02,039 --> 01:59:04,840
But let only the priesthood be called in and take

1749
01:59:04,880 --> 01:59:07,720
place among the judges. They will do this upon the

1750
01:59:07,800 --> 01:59:12,239
express condition alone that the sovereignty shall concede to them.

1751
01:59:12,399 --> 01:59:18,640
They're great prerogative mercy. Mercy therefore, is thus seated alone

1752
01:59:18,720 --> 01:59:22,319
with justice, and even takes the presidents over it, and

1753
01:59:22,399 --> 01:59:27,000
takes the precedence of it, Presidents of it. Presidents of it.

1754
01:59:28,039 --> 01:59:32,439
You hear those two people screaming, The accused criminal is

1755
01:59:32,479 --> 01:59:36,359
at liberty before this tribunal, to confess his fault, to

1756
01:59:36,479 --> 01:59:39,560
ask pardon for having committed it, and to submit to

1757
01:59:39,680 --> 01:59:44,960
certain religious expiations. This done behold at once, his crime

1758
01:59:45,039 --> 01:59:47,920
is charged into a sin and his punishment into an

1759
01:59:47,960 --> 01:59:49,760
easy and simple penance.

1760
01:59:50,600 --> 01:59:54,600
Speaker 2: So this is where I've heard all my life that

1761
01:59:56,119 --> 01:59:58,439
you know, you see it in movies all the time,

1762
01:59:58,479 --> 02:00:02,319
where you know, confess your sins confessed, confess, confess, and

1763
02:00:02,359 --> 02:00:04,520
then they beat them and whip them and then they

1764
02:00:04,600 --> 02:00:08,359
end up forcing a confession. And that was always my

1765
02:00:08,520 --> 02:00:11,760
take on the Inquisition. It was that everybody was beaten

1766
02:00:11,760 --> 02:00:15,319
into false confessions and then and then burned, and that

1767
02:00:15,600 --> 02:00:19,039
justified you know, they're they're mad march through you know,

1768
02:00:19,119 --> 02:00:21,680
three hundred years of or is it no, it's more

1769
02:00:21,720 --> 02:00:22,439
than that, right.

1770
02:00:22,640 --> 02:00:27,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean even Demeistros says it. He's like,

1771
02:00:27,720 --> 02:00:30,439
oh well it really started in twelve hundred.

1772
02:00:30,439 --> 02:00:35,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, six hundred years of like just absolutely insane

1773
02:00:35,319 --> 02:00:36,880
abuse by the Catholic Church.

1774
02:00:37,399 --> 02:00:39,640
Speaker 1: But it's more like four it's like four hundred.

1775
02:00:40,000 --> 02:00:49,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was formalized and uh nevertheless, letter was Yeah.

1776
02:00:47,359 --> 02:00:51,760
Speaker 1: He fasts, praise and mortifies himself. Instead of being dragged

1777
02:00:51,800 --> 02:00:55,720
to punishment, he recites palms, goes to confession, and here's mass.

1778
02:00:56,079 --> 02:00:59,399
Thus prepared and exercised, he is absolved and restored to

1779
02:00:59,439 --> 02:01:00,960
his family. And to society.

1780
02:01:01,560 --> 02:01:04,760
Speaker 2: The greatest punishment ever be a good Catholic.

1781
02:01:07,520 --> 02:01:14,880
Speaker 1: No, I was good. I can't say that you might

1782
02:01:15,039 --> 02:01:18,600
have to work. I was. It's going to reference another

1783
02:01:18,680 --> 02:01:20,840
group that was forced to work and complained about it.

1784
02:01:21,560 --> 02:01:26,159
But if the crime be of a very heinous character,

1785
02:01:26,520 --> 02:01:30,199
and the criminal continue obstinate, if he must be condemned

1786
02:01:30,199 --> 02:01:33,840
to death, the priest in this case retires and he

1787
02:01:33,880 --> 02:01:38,279
appears upon the scaffold only to console the unhappy victim.

1788
02:01:38,319 --> 02:01:41,239
Speaker 2: So once again, the priest did not condemn anybody to death.

1789
02:01:41,720 --> 02:01:47,600
Speaker 1: No, it is a singular circumstance that this distinctive character

1790
02:01:47,600 --> 02:01:51,279
of the inquisition has been solemnly acknowledged by one of

1791
02:01:51,359 --> 02:01:51,760
the side.

1792
02:01:53,439 --> 02:01:54,199
Speaker 2: What is that you know?

1793
02:01:54,279 --> 02:02:04,199
Speaker 1: That word ce ministers of the French Republic most I

1794
02:02:04,239 --> 02:02:09,640
think that's more going. Yeah, in his nouveaux voyage and Espana,

1795
02:02:10,640 --> 02:02:15,920
and it is hard I'm sorry, guys. I'm good with Spanish.

1796
02:02:15,960 --> 02:02:17,840
I'm good with Spanish, and I'm good with a couple

1797
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:21,399
other I am terrible with French. I apologize, I really do.

1798
02:02:22,560 --> 02:02:25,239
And it is hardly less singular to observe the manner

1799
02:02:25,319 --> 02:02:27,840
in which one of the journalists of that period gives

1800
02:02:27,840 --> 02:02:31,399
an account of the above writer's work. Take for example,

1801
02:02:31,520 --> 02:02:38,439
the following extract, where says the journalist, quote is the

1802
02:02:38,520 --> 02:02:42,000
tribunal in Europe save that of the Inquisition that acquits

1803
02:02:42,039 --> 02:02:46,439
the criminal, provided only that he repents and confesses his repentance.

1804
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:52,239
Where is the individual who maintaining doctrines subversive both of

1805
02:02:52,319 --> 02:02:55,920
faith and morality, and proclaiming principles destructive of peace and

1806
02:02:56,000 --> 02:02:59,960
social order. Where is the individual who, notwithstanding these offenses,

1807
02:03:00,600 --> 02:03:03,479
has not been twice admonished of his guilt by the

1808
02:03:03,520 --> 02:03:06,800
members of the Inquisition before they proceed to any farther

1809
02:03:06,960 --> 02:03:11,560
act against him. If in spite of their advice, he

1810
02:03:11,680 --> 02:03:15,079
still persists in his irreligious conduct, he is, in this

1811
02:03:15,159 --> 02:03:18,760
case arrested. If he repent, he is said at liberty,

1812
02:03:20,119 --> 02:03:26,800
monsieur Bourgoing, whose religious opinions are anything but favorable to religion,

1813
02:03:27,319 --> 02:03:31,039
speaking of the Holy Office, says, I will own it

1814
02:03:31,399 --> 02:03:35,439
in order to pay that homage, which is due to truth,

1815
02:03:35,800 --> 02:03:39,000
that the Inquisition might be cited in these days as

1816
02:03:39,079 --> 02:03:43,399
the model of equity. This is a singular concession, but

1817
02:03:43,479 --> 02:03:48,159
the fact that is Amberggonne saw nothing in the Tribunal

1818
02:03:48,199 --> 02:03:52,039
of the Inquisition save what is save what it really

1819
02:03:52,159 --> 02:03:55,199
is the instrument of the laws for the preservation of

1820
02:03:55,279 --> 02:03:56,319
peace and order.

1821
02:03:56,880 --> 02:04:01,720
Speaker 2: So not only was the Inquisition, did the Inquisition that

1822
02:04:01,920 --> 02:04:05,840
the tribuneal have all the legal trappings of every other

1823
02:04:05,920 --> 02:04:12,039
tribunal known to exist, but it was also the most

1824
02:04:12,640 --> 02:04:19,840
forgiving and the most merciful tribunal ever do exist. And

1825
02:04:20,239 --> 02:04:24,239
like they, like the priest viewed it as a spiritual

1826
02:04:24,359 --> 02:04:28,319
victory if they got somebody to like, a full restoration

1827
02:04:28,479 --> 02:04:31,199
of justice, if they got somebody to confess their sins

1828
02:04:31,199 --> 02:04:35,319
and repent, which that makes perfect sense to me, having

1829
02:04:35,600 --> 02:04:37,880
you know, been in the Catholic Church for even just

1830
02:04:37,920 --> 02:04:41,159
a little while. Yeah, like when I when I go

1831
02:04:41,279 --> 02:04:45,560
to confession, I come out feeling like I like I

1832
02:04:45,840 --> 02:04:48,359
like I was just in the Spanish Inquisition and got out.

1833
02:04:51,640 --> 02:04:53,319
Speaker 1: Oh I remember going to confession.

1834
02:04:53,319 --> 02:04:55,880
Speaker 2: It wasn't that bad, No, it really is.

1835
02:04:56,319 --> 02:04:59,119
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1836
02:04:59,199 --> 02:05:02,279
Speaker 1: In regard to those cruel and frightful forms so often

1837
02:05:02,399 --> 02:05:05,439
reproached and imputed it to this tribunal, it is my

1838
02:05:05,560 --> 02:05:08,960
misfortune to give little or no credit to them at

1839
02:05:09,000 --> 02:05:11,680
all events. I should like to be upon the spot

1840
02:05:11,800 --> 02:05:15,680
in order to judge them properly. Be the case, however,

1841
02:05:16,199 --> 02:05:19,560
what it may, If the revolution which has of late

1842
02:05:19,640 --> 02:05:22,439
years taken place in the habits and opinions of the public,

1843
02:05:22,800 --> 02:05:26,119
requires certain mitigations. In these points it is in the

1844
02:05:26,159 --> 02:05:29,159
power of the monarch to ordain them, and to such

1845
02:05:29,279 --> 02:05:33,960
alteration the inquisitors would lend themselves most willingly. We know

1846
02:05:34,039 --> 02:05:37,439
this well. Nothing human can be perfect, and there is

1847
02:05:37,479 --> 02:05:41,600
no institution. But what is attended by some abuse or

1848
02:05:41,680 --> 02:05:45,640
other you will, I think, do me the justice to

1849
02:05:45,680 --> 02:05:48,319
believe that no man is less disposed than myself to

1850
02:05:48,520 --> 02:05:54,279
justify any uselessity of severities. The religious inquisition of Spain was,

1851
02:05:54,439 --> 02:05:57,800
in my opinion, not unlike the public inquisition of Venice,

1852
02:05:58,000 --> 02:06:00,960
which reigned over the imaginations of the peace by the

1853
02:06:01,000 --> 02:06:04,920
display of certain terrors composed of little or nothing else

1854
02:06:05,439 --> 02:06:08,960
than mere fantastic forms and delusions, and which had the

1855
02:06:09,000 --> 02:06:13,039
happy effect of maintaining order without shedding one single drop

1856
02:06:13,039 --> 02:06:13,600
of blood.

1857
02:06:15,279 --> 02:06:18,800
Speaker 2: That's the ideal. Yeah, it seems like they kind of

1858
02:06:18,880 --> 02:06:22,119
unlocked something. I don't know why anybody would want to

1859
02:06:22,439 --> 02:06:23,079
subvert that.

1860
02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:31,319
Speaker 1: Well, it is false. Moreover, even in regard of Portugal,

1861
02:06:31,520 --> 02:06:35,479
that any however slender and accusation is looked upon as

1862
02:06:35,479 --> 02:06:39,920
a sufficient, sufficient reason for casting an accused person into prison.

1863
02:06:40,399 --> 02:06:43,319
As it is just equally false that they deny him

1864
02:06:43,359 --> 02:06:47,520
the heads and motives of the accusations alleged against him,

1865
02:06:47,680 --> 02:06:51,520
or the knowledge of his accusers. False again that they

1866
02:06:51,600 --> 02:06:54,760
refuse to allow him proper defenders to plead his case,

1867
02:06:55,079 --> 02:07:05,000
or that the accusers who have caluminated him remain unpunish Yeah.

1868
02:07:05,079 --> 02:07:07,479
I know indeed that in Spain the defenders of the

1869
02:07:07,520 --> 02:07:11,600
accused prisoners had the freest and most confidential access to them,

1870
02:07:11,840 --> 02:07:14,800
and that even the judges themselves took particular care to

1871
02:07:14,880 --> 02:07:18,000
inquire and ascertain whether or not these men had done

1872
02:07:18,039 --> 02:07:22,159
their duty in this regard.

1873
02:07:23,079 --> 02:07:28,720
Speaker 2: They they seem more progressive than I mean, what we

1874
02:07:28,840 --> 02:07:33,199
have now. Yeah, like actual progress, Like they were ahead

1875
02:07:33,239 --> 02:07:33,760
of their time.

1876
02:07:34,359 --> 02:07:36,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1877
02:07:36,720 --> 02:07:39,760
Speaker 1: Again. In relation to Portugal, it is a fact that

1878
02:07:39,800 --> 02:07:43,520
the tribunal of its inquisition never pronounces any sentence respecting

1879
02:07:43,560 --> 02:07:46,960
the temporal punishment. It simply declares that the criminal is

1880
02:07:46,960 --> 02:07:49,640
guilty of the crimes imputed to him. It then leaves

1881
02:07:49,640 --> 02:07:52,520
it to the civil judges to decide what punishments they

1882
02:07:52,560 --> 02:07:55,720
may think proper to inflict, precisely in the same way

1883
02:07:55,760 --> 02:07:59,520
as it is done in Spain. As for all confiscations,

1884
02:07:59,760 --> 02:08:03,840
these all go to the prophet of the King. The diocese.

1885
02:08:04,079 --> 02:08:09,039
The diocesan bishops have also the right to take cognizance

1886
02:08:09,039 --> 02:08:12,399
of any crime along with the inquisitors of the tribunal.

1887
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:17,000
Speaker 2: If even fifty of the things he says are true,

1888
02:08:17,199 --> 02:08:21,279
then that is already the greatest system of justice I've

1889
02:08:21,319 --> 02:08:25,880
ever heard of, Like the greatest judicial system I've ever seen.

1890
02:08:26,119 --> 02:08:27,439
If even half of that's real.

1891
02:08:29,079 --> 02:08:33,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, when you you know how many people

1892
02:08:33,920 --> 02:08:38,079
have read like Democracy the God that Failed and seeing

1893
02:08:38,119 --> 02:08:47,760
the argument that that monarchy is preferable to democracy, lower

1894
02:08:47,800 --> 02:08:52,199
time preference and all, and you know, a lot of

1895
02:08:52,239 --> 02:08:55,680
people can't get a lot of people just don't go

1896
02:08:55,720 --> 02:08:59,840
as far as Happa into anarcho capitalism, you know, which

1897
02:08:59,840 --> 02:09:03,920
he argues for in the book after he explains everything.

1898
02:09:04,520 --> 02:09:08,960
But when you look at this, I mean, would you.

1899
02:09:09,920 --> 02:09:12,079
I mean, I'm sure there are some people who would

1900
02:09:12,079 --> 02:09:14,720
say they would rather live under what we're living under

1901
02:09:14,800 --> 02:09:16,960
now than live under this, But I would rather live

1902
02:09:17,039 --> 02:09:22,960
under this. It's just it's it just makes more sense

1903
02:09:23,039 --> 02:09:26,199
to me. It's it seems it's going to bring about order.

1904
02:09:27,039 --> 02:09:27,159
Speaker 2: YEA.

1905
02:09:27,680 --> 02:09:30,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, A narco tyranny is not going to exist when

1906
02:09:30,640 --> 02:09:33,880
you when you have a king that is, you know,

1907
02:09:34,079 --> 02:09:39,279
seeking to pass down to you know, his progeny.

1908
02:09:39,399 --> 02:09:47,079
Speaker 2: You know what he doses the idea of repentance. If you,

1909
02:09:48,640 --> 02:09:53,800
if you kind of a juxtapose that into this, the

1910
02:09:53,800 --> 02:09:57,039
the system that we have now with our our our

1911
02:09:57,479 --> 02:10:05,479
criminal justice system, what's the uh, what's the recidivism rate

1912
02:10:07,279 --> 02:10:08,960
for for violent criminals?

1913
02:10:09,399 --> 02:10:12,039
Speaker 1: It's it's insane, it's insane.

1914
02:10:12,439 --> 02:10:18,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's because we where we have no concept of

1915
02:10:18,520 --> 02:10:21,920
are you actually repentant of your crimes? I mean, I

1916
02:10:22,880 --> 02:10:25,439
know that's a question they ask usually after a sentence

1917
02:10:25,479 --> 02:10:30,039
has passed, or or right before, but like to have

1918
02:10:30,119 --> 02:10:32,920
it actually mean something, and and for them to be

1919
02:10:32,960 --> 02:10:36,720
able to discern whether whether the accused actually means it.

1920
02:10:38,199 --> 02:10:41,279
That's just that's a level of human connection that I

1921
02:10:41,279 --> 02:10:45,119
don't think can exists now, Like civilization is just I

1922
02:10:45,119 --> 02:10:49,560
don't know, evolved past that unfortunately.

1923
02:10:50,319 --> 02:10:54,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, Yeah.

1924
02:10:54,079 --> 02:10:58,760
Speaker 1: All right. Besides all this, I ought still farther to

1925
02:10:58,840 --> 02:11:01,279
observe to you that in regard to the more or

1926
02:11:01,359 --> 02:11:05,119
less severe form of forms of justice, there has never

1927
02:11:05,199 --> 02:11:09,439
existed anywhere so much as one enlightened nation, which from

1928
02:11:09,520 --> 02:11:12,840
time to time and for great urgent motives, has not

1929
02:11:13,000 --> 02:11:18,239
instituted certain extraordinary tribunals divested almost wholly of the usual

1930
02:11:18,319 --> 02:11:22,680
forms of justice. Thus, I will cite to you as

1931
02:11:22,720 --> 02:11:27,479
an example the ancient Provotou order of justice of the French.

1932
02:11:28,000 --> 02:11:30,680
It was the will or whim of the Kings of

1933
02:11:30,720 --> 02:11:34,039
France that all the great public roads should be everywhere

1934
02:11:34,039 --> 02:11:41,960
completely safe for travelers. Early libertarian work. Here, every traveler

1935
02:11:42,319 --> 02:11:46,239
was placed directly under their special protection, and the slenderest

1936
02:11:46,239 --> 02:11:49,520
attempt upon his person or his safety was looked upon

1937
02:11:49,680 --> 02:11:52,720
as a kind of high treason, which the law punished

1938
02:11:52,760 --> 02:11:56,119
with the utmost severity and with the rapidity of lightning.

1939
02:11:58,000 --> 02:12:00,479
The poor wretch who had robbed a travel or upon

1940
02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:03,960
the high road, although it was but a few of

1941
02:12:04,000 --> 02:12:09,079
a few levier livers. I can't remember how that levers

1942
02:12:09,800 --> 02:12:14,399
was seized by the marshasse a, delivered over to be

1943
02:12:14,520 --> 02:12:19,000
judged by the Grand Provo and two eccessors, and in

1944
02:12:19,039 --> 02:12:22,760
the course of twenty four hours broken alive upon the rack.

1945
02:12:23,199 --> 02:12:26,079
And all this too under the eyes of Parliament, which

1946
02:12:26,119 --> 02:12:28,920
never interfered, because not allowed to do so. In the

1947
02:12:28,960 --> 02:12:32,920
business that just completely destroys an episode of that I

1948
02:12:33,800 --> 02:12:34,640
really sed earlier.

1949
02:12:35,920 --> 02:12:42,199
Speaker 5: Oh oh yeah, because I mean I guess I should

1950
02:12:42,199 --> 02:12:44,600
have just kept it till like iron iron maidens, Like

1951
02:12:44,680 --> 02:12:46,720
you know, the iron maiden was never used as.

1952
02:12:46,640 --> 02:12:51,239
Speaker 1: A as a torture device. It was something invented for

1953
02:12:52,159 --> 02:12:55,079
nineteenth century like freak shows and circuses and stuff like that.

1954
02:12:55,479 --> 02:12:58,600
But I guess somebody, I mean, maybe if people were

1955
02:12:59,439 --> 02:13:03,560
the racks used, but it's hard to find evidence of them.

1956
02:13:04,199 --> 02:13:08,199
Speaker 2: That is. I mean, that's I think that's fucking awesome.

1957
02:13:08,479 --> 02:13:13,079
Like these roads are basically they belonged to the king,

1958
02:13:13,199 --> 02:13:16,560
and if you fuck with anybody on them, like not Onli,

1959
02:13:16,960 --> 02:13:19,159
not only are you getting executed, but it's going to

1960
02:13:19,199 --> 02:13:21,880
be very painful. I wonder what that did for the

1961
02:13:21,960 --> 02:13:25,920
crime rate. Like something tells me that the king just

1962
02:13:26,000 --> 02:13:29,199
didn't arbitrarily come up with that punishment. There was probably

1963
02:13:29,279 --> 02:13:33,159
a time where like you could travel on the roads.

1964
02:13:33,840 --> 02:13:36,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and then the.

1965
02:13:36,079 --> 02:13:38,279
Speaker 2: Pendulum swung the other way and now you're getting the

1966
02:13:38,319 --> 02:13:42,640
fucking racked.

1967
02:13:40,760 --> 02:13:44,039
Speaker 1: That in Russia and its territories in the late eighteen hundreds,

1968
02:13:44,039 --> 02:13:46,039
and maybe Stalin wouldn't have made it anywhere.

1969
02:13:46,640 --> 02:13:46,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1970
02:13:47,399 --> 02:13:52,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is no doubt true that the jurisprudence was severe,

1971
02:13:53,399 --> 02:13:56,720
but then it was completely at the option of every Frenchman,

1972
02:13:56,800 --> 02:13:59,640
whether or not to rob upon the high roads. The

1973
02:13:59,680 --> 02:14:03,199
will the King was that the public road travel, that

1974
02:14:03,560 --> 02:14:07,439
the public road should travel upon them. The public should

1975
02:14:07,439 --> 02:14:10,720
travel upon them in perfect security, and even sleep upon

1976
02:14:10,760 --> 02:14:15,000
them with impunity. Men have each their own peculiar notions

1977
02:14:15,000 --> 02:14:20,199
and ideas. From what I have already said, you cannot,

1978
02:14:20,239 --> 02:14:25,399
my lord, but be sensible. How many errors and injustices

1979
02:14:25,479 --> 02:14:29,600
our modern sophice have placed to the account of the Inquisition.

1980
02:14:30,359 --> 02:14:34,680
They represented as a tribunal purely ecclesiastical, whereas I have

1981
02:14:34,800 --> 02:14:38,159
shown you by the most incontestible authorities that it is

1982
02:14:38,239 --> 02:14:42,119
nothing of the nature. They boldly assert that the priests

1983
02:14:42,159 --> 02:14:45,680
and this institution contempt condemned men to death, and this

1984
02:14:46,000 --> 02:14:50,640
too even for simple opinions. And I have convinced you

1985
02:14:50,680 --> 02:14:53,800
that this is false. They maintain that the Inquisition is

1986
02:14:53,840 --> 02:14:57,279
the artful invention of the popes, whereas, referring to history,

1987
02:14:57,319 --> 02:14:59,760
you have seen that the institution was conceded by the

1988
02:14:59,760 --> 02:15:03,680
poet hopes only at the urgent solicitation of sovereigns, and

1989
02:15:03,760 --> 02:15:07,359
often with much reluctance, at least in relation to those

1990
02:15:07,359 --> 02:15:12,279
inflictions which appeared to them too severe. They have contended

1991
02:15:12,319 --> 02:15:14,760
that the Inquisition enslaves the human mind, and that the

1992
02:15:14,760 --> 02:15:19,039
writers of Spain all disappeared the instant it was introduced.

1993
02:15:19,920 --> 02:15:23,840
Whereas what is the fact the brightest age of Spanish

1994
02:15:23,880 --> 02:15:26,840
literature is the very age of Philip the second, the

1995
02:15:26,840 --> 02:15:29,680
prince most loudly accused of being the great promoter of

1996
02:15:29,720 --> 02:15:34,399
the Inquisition. Whilst moreover, it is like likewise true that

1997
02:15:34,439 --> 02:15:38,119
the writers who have principally distinguished Spain all printed and

1998
02:15:38,159 --> 02:15:45,159
published their works with the express permission of the Holy Office. Mathematics, astronomy, chemistry,

1999
02:15:45,359 --> 02:15:53,000
all the natural sciences, philology, philology, philology is like touching

2000
02:15:53,039 --> 02:15:58,920
faces philology, history and antiquity, etc. All these are fields

2001
02:15:58,960 --> 02:16:01,960
in which the human mind may range without control and

2002
02:16:02,039 --> 02:16:05,399
without any of the slenderest opposition of the Right Reverend Father,

2003
02:16:05,760 --> 02:16:10,880
the Grand Inquisitor. It surely is not enslaving the human mind,

2004
02:16:11,119 --> 02:16:15,439
merely to ordain and require that a set of profane

2005
02:16:15,520 --> 02:16:20,279
and impious writers shall not insult religion and revile the

2006
02:16:20,359 --> 02:16:21,760
dogmas of the state.

2007
02:16:22,399 --> 02:16:24,760
Speaker 2: See, we have all of that right now, except for

2008
02:16:24,800 --> 02:16:35,399
the good parts. You can replace mathematics and philology with you. Yeah,

2009
02:16:35,680 --> 02:16:37,680
here's how to chop your dick off and keep an

2010
02:16:37,920 --> 02:16:42,760
open wounds.

2011
02:16:41,600 --> 02:16:43,000
Speaker 1: Try to keep maggots out of it.

2012
02:16:45,319 --> 02:16:51,120
Speaker 6: Well, that was it was kind of repetitive from the

2013
02:16:51,120 --> 02:16:54,719
first letter, but yeah, I like how he went into

2014
02:16:54,760 --> 02:16:59,040
a little more detail about the just how fucking awesome

2015
02:17:00,079 --> 02:17:04,000
the that that whole uh, the whole process was.

2016
02:17:05,559 --> 02:17:10,319
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's I think it's taken as a

2017
02:17:10,360 --> 02:17:15,639
given by most people that justice in times as such

2018
02:17:15,719 --> 02:17:21,760
would be, you know, just oh, that person's guilty, just

2019
02:17:22,040 --> 02:17:24,360
chopped their head off, chopped their hands off to everything,

2020
02:17:24,959 --> 02:17:34,959
and to actually create something as such, and I would

2021
02:17:35,000 --> 02:17:42,959
have to believe that they would. In wanting the church

2022
02:17:43,959 --> 02:17:49,120
to be the inquisitors, to be the investigators, they were

2023
02:17:49,159 --> 02:17:52,000
hoping that they would. They were finding the most moral

2024
02:17:52,120 --> 02:17:52,879
men to do it.

2025
02:17:53,760 --> 02:17:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, which at the time they were.

2026
02:17:55,719 --> 02:17:58,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2027
02:17:59,239 --> 02:18:05,799
Speaker 2: From the from the propaganda's standpoint, it's and even for me,

2028
02:18:06,200 --> 02:18:12,600
it's it's easy to assume that people, the people in

2029
02:18:12,719 --> 02:18:18,159
charge of the justice system take joy in punishing punishing

2030
02:18:18,200 --> 02:18:24,559
people arbitrarily. And you know, so a standpoint that's never

2031
02:18:24,639 --> 02:18:28,200
considered is you know, what if what if people don't

2032
02:18:28,239 --> 02:18:32,680
take joy in executing people or hurting people, Like, what

2033
02:18:32,799 --> 02:18:35,680
if you had a system where people actually look for

2034
02:18:35,840 --> 02:18:39,799
reasons to be merciful and reasons to forgive, and reasons

2035
02:18:39,840 --> 02:18:44,239
to you know, rehabilitate. And that's a pie in the

2036
02:18:44,280 --> 02:18:47,840
sky fantasy right now because we don't have a culture

2037
02:18:47,920 --> 02:18:51,559
that that can withstand that. We're seeing that right now

2038
02:18:51,600 --> 02:18:58,760
with you know, the decarceration movements and just you know,

2039
02:18:58,879 --> 02:19:02,159
you you can goes back to what we all know

2040
02:19:02,280 --> 02:19:04,079
is you can only have that kind of system and

2041
02:19:04,120 --> 02:19:06,799
a culture that that is united.

2042
02:19:07,719 --> 02:19:15,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, I forget what rappers said in

2043
02:19:15,360 --> 02:19:19,120
the nineties. You said, you can't have justice on stolen land.

2044
02:19:20,319 --> 02:19:24,680
You can't. You can't have justice in a multi multicultural society.

2045
02:19:25,319 --> 02:19:32,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's yeah, everything's about gaining power for your for

2046
02:19:32,559 --> 02:19:33,159
your in group.

2047
02:19:33,680 --> 02:19:34,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2048
02:19:34,200 --> 02:19:37,520
Speaker 1: I mean every land is stolen, every line is stolen

2049
02:19:37,520 --> 02:19:40,799
from someone else, So it's retarded. That's retarded. But you

2050
02:19:41,159 --> 02:19:45,479
can't have justice in a multicultural society. It's just it's impossible.

2051
02:19:46,120 --> 02:19:51,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred competing power groups. Yeah, and you know,

2052
02:19:52,000 --> 02:19:54,680
like like your guests said during your last episode, the

2053
02:19:54,719 --> 02:20:00,600
system is remarkably resilient. The fact that you know where

2054
02:20:00,319 --> 02:20:03,079
we're we're seeing it slip right now, but who knows

2055
02:20:03,120 --> 02:20:06,200
how who knows how long this Inquisition is gonna last.

2056
02:20:06,239 --> 02:20:10,479
It could very well be for six hundred years. Like

2057
02:20:11,559 --> 02:20:13,719
I mean, it's it's a crapshoot right now.

2058
02:20:14,280 --> 02:20:20,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no mercy, no mercy associated with it whatsoever. No, nope, no,

2059
02:20:20,600 --> 02:20:24,200
And it's and it's horrific in its nature. It's anti

2060
02:20:24,280 --> 02:20:25,399
human and its nature.

2061
02:20:25,799 --> 02:20:28,000
Speaker 2: And that's that's the difference.

2062
02:20:28,520 --> 02:20:28,680
Speaker 3: You know.

2063
02:20:29,639 --> 02:20:34,000
Speaker 2: As much as I can extrapolate parallels between the Spanish

2064
02:20:34,040 --> 02:20:38,040
Inquisition and what what what our side's going through right now,

2065
02:20:39,879 --> 02:20:46,719
the difference is, uh, where the good guys being being acquired?

2066
02:20:49,760 --> 02:20:52,760
Speaker 1: All right, well we'll check out. I'll look at the

2067
02:20:52,799 --> 02:20:57,319
next letter and see how that, see how much difference

2068
02:20:57,360 --> 02:21:00,440
we have in that. Try to try to reduce relap

2069
02:21:00,479 --> 02:21:04,600
on the next one that we read, and we'll go

2070
02:21:04,639 --> 02:21:08,239
from there. Hey, I, you were on an episode this

2071
02:21:08,280 --> 02:21:10,719
week of Timeline Earth. That was that was crazy man.

2072
02:21:10,799 --> 02:21:13,959
Speaker 2: Yeah. I made my triumph triumphant return, you know, to

2073
02:21:14,000 --> 02:21:17,719
fulfill my minimum minimum obligations, which is all I really

2074
02:21:17,760 --> 02:21:21,840
try to do. The astitute in next one should be

2075
02:21:21,840 --> 02:21:24,200
good for next Wednesday too, But the fuck knows.

2076
02:21:25,479 --> 02:21:28,079
Speaker 1: Let me take a jab jabb at pause. You show

2077
02:21:28,159 --> 02:21:29,079
up more than pause does.

2078
02:21:29,920 --> 02:21:34,559
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, But when he shows up.

2079
02:21:35,159 --> 02:21:35,639
Speaker 1: I love you.

2080
02:21:35,760 --> 02:21:38,520
Speaker 2: Pause, I love you when he shows up. It's like

2081
02:21:38,559 --> 02:21:40,959
twelve of my twelve of me showing up.

2082
02:21:42,959 --> 02:21:44,280
Speaker 1: All right, man, you have a good night.

2083
02:21:44,280 --> 02:21:45,760
Speaker 3: Thanks man.

2084
02:21:47,719 --> 02:21:50,520
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peking Show.

2085
02:21:51,959 --> 02:21:54,000
I think three episodes is enough. We're going to finish

2086
02:21:54,000 --> 02:21:55,200
this up. Hey, doing eron.

2087
02:21:55,719 --> 02:21:56,639
Speaker 2: Hey, how's it going? Man?

2088
02:21:57,000 --> 02:21:59,639
Speaker 1: Doing good? Man doing good. So what we are going

2089
02:21:59,680 --> 02:22:03,120
to do today is the book we've been going through

2090
02:22:03,559 --> 02:22:08,559
on the Spanish Inquisition by Joseph demeistra Is, has five

2091
02:22:08,639 --> 02:22:12,000
letters in it. We've read one and two. One was

2092
02:22:12,120 --> 02:22:15,319
very long, two is short. We're going to read four

2093
02:22:15,479 --> 02:22:18,000
to finish it off, but we're in four is very

2094
02:22:18,000 --> 02:22:20,239
short actually, So we're going to have some discussion time

2095
02:22:21,159 --> 02:22:25,159
about everything that we've read. But we want to start

2096
02:22:25,200 --> 02:22:28,680
off by reading a section out of letter three that

2097
02:22:28,760 --> 02:22:34,799
I think is interesting because it references a specific case

2098
02:22:34,840 --> 02:22:43,680
where a criminal was charged and sentenced to a punishment,

2099
02:22:44,440 --> 02:22:49,040
and it talks about how the punishment was carried out,

2100
02:22:49,079 --> 02:22:53,000
and it's rather interesting. So anything you want to say

2101
02:22:53,040 --> 02:22:53,920
before we start.

2102
02:22:54,280 --> 02:22:57,079
Speaker 2: No, let's get right into it, all right, Let's do this.

2103
02:22:58,639 --> 02:23:04,799
Speaker 1: All right. So this is in the middle of letter three,

2104
02:23:04,920 --> 02:23:08,559
if you go up here a little bit. He talks

2105
02:23:08,600 --> 02:23:12,440
about how somebody had said, oh, there's this scaffold. There's

2106
02:23:12,440 --> 02:23:15,959
an edifice designed this a scaffold for the burning of heretics.

2107
02:23:16,440 --> 02:23:18,559
And he goes, it's such an edifice designs to such

2108
02:23:18,600 --> 02:23:22,719
a purpose, would of course burn itself as the first experiment.

2109
02:23:24,719 --> 02:23:28,159
But yeah, so all this preposterous stuff. But he says,

2110
02:23:29,479 --> 02:23:32,680
there's a mister He cites a mister Townsend. He says,

2111
02:23:32,879 --> 02:23:35,000
but I will cite to you another example of mister

2112
02:23:35,079 --> 02:23:40,200
Townsend's abhorrence and reprobation of the Inquisition. It is the

2113
02:23:40,239 --> 02:23:44,399
account of a very frightful Auto da fay, which took

2114
02:23:44,479 --> 02:23:48,639
place a little while before his reverence arrived in Spain.

2115
02:23:49,639 --> 02:23:53,600
Speaker 2: I just thought of a joke about that which field

2116
02:23:53,639 --> 02:23:55,319
doesn't not melt wood beams?

2117
02:23:55,920 --> 02:23:56,479
Speaker 3: Uh oh.

2118
02:23:58,840 --> 02:24:05,440
Speaker 1: Ah, he says. A beggar tells us named Ignacio Rodriguez

2119
02:24:06,000 --> 02:24:08,959
was condemned by the Tribunal of the Inquisition for having

2120
02:24:08,959 --> 02:24:13,799
distributed certain love potions of a very indecent nature, and

2121
02:24:13,840 --> 02:24:19,120
of having, in the administration of the infamous remedy, pronounced

2122
02:24:19,319 --> 02:24:24,319
certain words of necromancy old blue choo or is this

2123
02:24:24,399 --> 02:24:26,719
the original Spanish fly.

2124
02:24:28,440 --> 02:24:31,559
Speaker 2: That could very well be it.

2125
02:24:31,559 --> 02:24:35,120
Speaker 1: It was, moreover, proved that he had administered the disgusting

2126
02:24:35,200 --> 02:24:39,319
dose to all ranks of persons. Rodriguez had two accomplices

2127
02:24:39,360 --> 02:24:42,280
in his crimes who were equally condemned as he was.

2128
02:24:42,360 --> 02:24:47,360
Their names Juliana Lopez and Angelo Barrios. One of these

2129
02:24:47,479 --> 02:24:51,040
imploring the judges to spare her life. They told her

2130
02:24:51,399 --> 02:24:53,719
that it was not the practice of the Holy Office

2131
02:24:53,760 --> 02:24:58,319
to condemn anyone to death. Rodriguez was condemned to be

2132
02:24:58,440 --> 02:25:01,200
led through the streets of madri mounts It on an

2133
02:25:01,280 --> 02:25:05,239
ass and to be whipped. They likewise imposed upon him

2134
02:25:05,280 --> 02:25:08,319
certain practices of religion, and to be banished from the

2135
02:25:08,360 --> 02:25:10,040
capital for five years.

2136
02:25:10,600 --> 02:25:12,559
Speaker 2: All right, Yeah.

2137
02:25:12,680 --> 02:25:15,719
Speaker 1: The reading of the sentence was frequently interrupted by peals

2138
02:25:15,760 --> 02:25:18,399
of laughter, in which the beggar himself joined.

2139
02:25:20,600 --> 02:25:22,079
Speaker 2: It's probably an interesting trial.

2140
02:25:24,120 --> 02:25:27,319
Speaker 1: Accordingly, the criminal was led through the streets but not

2141
02:25:27,440 --> 02:25:30,639
whipped on the way, and during the procession the people

2142
02:25:30,680 --> 02:25:36,000
offered him wine and biscuits, cruel creatures to refresh him,

2143
02:25:36,319 --> 02:25:40,799
such as the narrative given by mister Townsend says, Now,

2144
02:25:40,840 --> 02:25:44,040
I do think that nothing can be more lenient and

2145
02:25:44,159 --> 02:25:47,719
humane than all this process. If here the tribunal deserves

2146
02:25:47,760 --> 02:25:51,239
any reproach, it is for the excess of its indulgence.

2147
02:25:51,879 --> 02:25:54,520
For if we only consider the words of the traveler,

2148
02:25:54,760 --> 02:25:58,280
we find that the ingredients employed by Rodriguez were such

2149
02:25:58,319 --> 02:26:01,440
as would in any other country. He had condemned him

2150
02:26:01,479 --> 02:26:08,399
to the pillory, to the galleys, or even to the gallows. However,

2151
02:26:08,520 --> 02:26:12,360
all this does not satisfy mister Townsend. The crime, he remarks,

2152
02:26:12,479 --> 02:26:15,479
was far below the dignity of the tribunal, and that

2153
02:26:15,479 --> 02:26:19,079
it would have been been much better to have punished

2154
02:26:19,079 --> 02:26:24,040
the miserable wretch secret by the vilest minister of Justice.

2155
02:26:24,520 --> 02:26:28,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, it seems like they, uh, they got it

2156
02:26:28,760 --> 02:26:30,319
in a little deeper than they wanted to.

2157
02:26:31,000 --> 02:26:36,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, so amare Yeah, Yeah, it's like and

2158
02:26:36,559 --> 02:26:40,040
you have to imagine these you know, these priests and

2159
02:26:40,079 --> 02:26:47,440
these Dominicans just they're like really yeah, really Spanish lie huh.

2160
02:26:46,840 --> 02:26:50,719
Speaker 1: Right, this is great. We gotta we gotta listen to this. Yeah,

2161
02:26:50,799 --> 02:26:53,879
all right, let us read the fourth fourth Letter in

2162
02:26:53,920 --> 02:27:00,319
its entirety and bring this to a halt, and bring

2163
02:27:00,319 --> 02:27:04,520
this to a close. Yes, all right. In the natural sciences,

2164
02:27:04,559 --> 02:27:08,959
there is always question of mean quantities. Thus we speak

2165
02:27:08,959 --> 02:27:12,239
of the mean distance, the mean movement, the mean duration,

2166
02:27:12,559 --> 02:27:15,920
et cetera. It would be well if the same notion

2167
02:27:16,040 --> 02:27:19,239
were applied also to politics, and that men would feel

2168
02:27:19,559 --> 02:27:23,600
and be convinced that the best institutions are not those

2169
02:27:23,680 --> 02:27:27,120
which present the greatest degree of possible happiness as such

2170
02:27:27,600 --> 02:27:31,719
or such a given period, but those which ensure the

2171
02:27:31,760 --> 02:27:35,520
greatest sum or measure of possible happiness to the greatest

2172
02:27:35,600 --> 02:27:42,719
number of possible generations. This, and I think to point

2173
02:27:43,079 --> 02:27:48,079
quite and I think the point quite evident is mean happiness.

2174
02:27:50,200 --> 02:27:55,680
Speaker 2: All right, Yeah, yeah, I guess you know. The state's

2175
02:27:55,760 --> 02:27:58,959
job isn't to make everybody happy. It's to create the

2176
02:27:59,000 --> 02:28:03,840
conditions so that the vast majority of people can become happy.

2177
02:28:05,200 --> 02:28:12,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, de maestra. And characteristically, in starting a little

2178
02:28:12,159 --> 02:28:14,000
classical liberalism in here.

2179
02:28:14,040 --> 02:28:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, eh happens to the best of us.

2180
02:28:19,760 --> 02:28:22,760
Speaker 1: Upon this principle, I should be curious and should like

2181
02:28:22,840 --> 02:28:25,639
to know what the bitterest enemy of the inquisition would

2182
02:28:25,680 --> 02:28:29,000
reply to the Spaniard who, passing over what I have

2183
02:28:29,200 --> 02:28:32,760
just said, should undertake to defend it in terms like

2184
02:28:32,799 --> 02:28:37,319
the following, Sir, He says to the supposed accuser, you

2185
02:28:37,360 --> 02:28:40,879
are my ops, you are shortsighted and see but a

2186
02:28:40,920 --> 02:28:46,559
single object. Our legislatures. Our legislators looked down from an

2187
02:28:46,559 --> 02:28:50,000
eminence and saw the great hule. At the opening of

2188
02:28:50,000 --> 02:28:54,159
the sixteenth century, they beheld Europe as it were in flames.

2189
02:28:55,040 --> 02:28:58,799
In order to secure themselves from the general conflagration, they

2190
02:28:59,040 --> 02:29:03,159
employed the position, which is the political instrument. They made

2191
02:29:03,319 --> 02:29:06,639
use of both to preserve the unity of faith and

2192
02:29:06,719 --> 02:29:09,479
to prevent the war of religion, the wars of religion.

2193
02:29:11,000 --> 02:29:14,000
You have done nothing like this, but now trace and

2194
02:29:14,079 --> 02:29:18,840
remark the result. I appeal but to experience. For experiences,

2195
02:29:18,879 --> 02:29:21,639
the best criterions direct men's judgment.

2196
02:29:22,840 --> 02:29:28,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, when you look at what the Reformation

2197
02:29:28,559 --> 02:29:32,159
eventually led to for the vast majority of Europe, especially

2198
02:29:32,399 --> 02:29:36,399
the Thirty Years War, you know, if you were on

2199
02:29:36,479 --> 02:29:39,239
the outside looking in on that, you would have to

2200
02:29:39,319 --> 02:29:43,440
ask yourself, Okay, how do I have this not happen

2201
02:29:43,520 --> 02:29:47,360
in my country? Like the Thirty Years War devastated Europe,

2202
02:29:47,399 --> 02:29:51,639
like per capita it was the per capita it was

2203
02:29:51,680 --> 02:29:54,159
one of the most devastating wars in Europe in terms

2204
02:29:54,159 --> 02:29:58,079
of like just the destruction of productive capacity. I mean,

2205
02:29:58,680 --> 02:30:02,520
it changed the landscape. And I don't blame countries like

2206
02:30:02,639 --> 02:30:07,239
Spain that kind of escaped it from you know, in

2207
02:30:07,319 --> 02:30:13,639
the in the sixteenth or seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, being like, let's, uh,

2208
02:30:14,280 --> 02:30:16,799
let's make sure that that never and anything like that

2209
02:30:16,840 --> 02:30:18,520
ever happens to us.

2210
02:30:18,959 --> 02:30:24,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And as Thomas has pointed out, uh, Machiavelli, yeah,

2211
02:30:24,879 --> 02:30:28,239
wrote about how you know, one hundred years before the

2212
02:30:28,280 --> 02:30:31,520
Thirty Years wore, one hundred years before the Treaty of Westphalia,

2213
02:30:32,920 --> 02:30:39,000
Spain was a state, was a was a true Westphalian

2214
02:30:39,120 --> 02:30:44,959
kind of was was a true state. And that's the

2215
02:30:45,040 --> 02:30:49,440
reason they were able to accomplish so much while everybody

2216
02:30:49,479 --> 02:30:50,079
else was.

2217
02:30:50,120 --> 02:30:55,319
Speaker 2: Just so from my understanding, it was kind of a

2218
02:30:55,319 --> 02:30:59,840
proto Westphalian state because even though the monarch did represent

2219
02:31:00,079 --> 02:31:05,520
national sovereignty or how do I want to phrase this,

2220
02:31:06,760 --> 02:31:12,120
the monarch was understood and articulated as the national sovereign

2221
02:31:12,520 --> 02:31:16,120
of Spain, whereas every other country it was just you know,

2222
02:31:16,200 --> 02:31:22,360
the dukes, the counts, the whatever, the barons that held sovereignty. Right,

2223
02:31:22,399 --> 02:31:25,280
but within the context of feudalism.

2224
02:31:25,360 --> 02:31:25,920
Speaker 3: Right.

2225
02:31:27,479 --> 02:31:31,680
Speaker 1: Behold. Then the Thirty Years War enkindled by the doctrines

2226
02:31:31,680 --> 02:31:36,120
of Luther. Look at the unheard of excesses of the Anabaptists,

2227
02:31:36,479 --> 02:31:39,600
the civil wars of France, of England and of Holland.

2228
02:31:40,000 --> 02:31:44,120
Consider the massacres of the Saint Bartholomew of Merindal and

2229
02:31:44,159 --> 02:31:48,079
the Savells, the murder of Queen Mary Stewart, that of

2230
02:31:48,159 --> 02:31:51,520
Henry the third, of Henry the fourth, of Charles the First,

2231
02:31:51,920 --> 02:31:54,799
of the Prince of Orange, et cetera. A ship might

2232
02:31:54,879 --> 02:31:58,159
float in the ocean of blood which your innovators have shed.

2233
02:31:59,079 --> 02:32:02,360
The Inquisition would have punished only those disturbers of the

2234
02:32:02,440 --> 02:32:06,879
public peace and order. It ill becomes you, ignorant and

2235
02:32:06,959 --> 02:32:10,719
presumptuous as you are, you who had foreseen nothing and

2236
02:32:10,799 --> 02:32:15,959
have deluged Europe and blood. It will be it ill

2237
02:32:16,040 --> 02:32:20,079
becomes you to blame our monarchs who had foreseen everything

2238
02:32:20,159 --> 02:32:22,399
and secured their kingdom from devastation.

2239
02:32:23,120 --> 02:32:26,559
Speaker 2: This is a very interesting approach he's taken in something

2240
02:32:26,600 --> 02:32:31,479
that I mean, I it makes me empathize even more

2241
02:32:32,200 --> 02:32:37,399
with the Spanish monarch, with Ferdinand the seventh, and I

2242
02:32:37,399 --> 02:32:40,360
guess his predecessors too, Like just what can we do

2243
02:32:40,440 --> 02:32:43,040
to insulate ourselves from the conditions that led to all

2244
02:32:43,079 --> 02:32:49,879
these religious based civil civil wars and sectarian violence? Like yeah,

2245
02:32:49,920 --> 02:32:53,479
I guess I would too, Like if you know, if

2246
02:32:53,520 --> 02:32:57,680
we have to institute the Inquisition, even even at its

2247
02:32:58,559 --> 02:33:09,600
most most ill willed, uh, lying propagandistic description like it's

2248
02:33:10,079 --> 02:33:13,319
it's still better than what was going on in other countries.

2249
02:33:13,799 --> 02:33:20,360
Speaker 1: Yep, all right, don't tell me that the Inquisition has

2250
02:33:20,360 --> 02:33:23,280
produced such and such abuses at such and such a time.

2251
02:33:23,680 --> 02:33:26,600
This is not the question. The question is to know whether,

2252
02:33:27,000 --> 02:33:30,200
during the last three centuries there has been, by virtue

2253
02:33:30,200 --> 02:33:33,360
of the Inquisition a greater enjoyment of peace and happiness

2254
02:33:33,360 --> 02:33:37,440
in Spain than in the other nations of Europe. To

2255
02:33:37,520 --> 02:33:41,840
sacrifice present generations to the problematic happiness of future generations.

2256
02:33:42,239 --> 02:33:45,559
This may be a calculation of a philosopher, but it

2257
02:33:45,639 --> 02:33:49,200
is not that of an enlightened legislation legislator.

2258
02:33:49,600 --> 02:33:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's right, he's making the making the utility the

2259
02:33:52,559 --> 02:33:55,639
utilitarian argument, which I mean, he's right.

2260
02:33:58,520 --> 02:34:03,239
Speaker 1: But if this observation, but if this observation does, But

2261
02:34:03,639 --> 02:34:06,120
if this observation do not suffice to convince you, I

2262
02:34:06,200 --> 02:34:09,159
will then appeal to what we have witnessed during the

2263
02:34:09,239 --> 02:34:13,040
late conflicts with the gigantic power of France, wielded by

2264
02:34:13,040 --> 02:34:16,760
the greatest of all modern conquerors and heroes. It was

2265
02:34:16,799 --> 02:34:20,559
the Inquisition which, then, far beyond any other instrument, saved

2266
02:34:20,559 --> 02:34:24,520
Spain and immortalized it. It preserved and kept alive that

2267
02:34:24,639 --> 02:34:30,079
public spirit, faith, that faith, that religious patriotism, which produced

2268
02:34:30,239 --> 02:34:33,719
those wonders which we have all witnessed, and which it

2269
02:34:33,760 --> 02:34:37,760
may be, by saving Spain saved Europe itself from tyranny

2270
02:34:37,799 --> 02:34:42,520
and oppression, from the summits of the Pyrenees. The Inquisition

2271
02:34:42,799 --> 02:34:49,319
frightened away that profane philosophism which had, it is true,

2272
02:34:49,440 --> 02:34:53,440
it's great good reasons for hating the Inquisition. Its eye

2273
02:34:53,520 --> 02:34:57,520
was always open, watching the dangerous works which, like so

2274
02:34:57,600 --> 02:35:03,040
many dreadful avalanches, fell down from the mountains. And although

2275
02:35:03,120 --> 02:35:07,000
unhappily too many of these poisonous instruments did escape its

2276
02:35:07,040 --> 02:35:10,719
vigilance and served to seduce and corrupt a considerable number

2277
02:35:10,719 --> 02:35:14,319
of individuals, still the great body of the people remained

2278
02:35:14,360 --> 02:35:19,239
faithful and unimpaired. It was the Inquisition alone that could restore,

2279
02:35:19,479 --> 02:35:23,440
and that actually, far beyond any other aid, did restore.

2280
02:35:23,920 --> 02:35:27,680
Such was the noble ardor which it inspired the monarch

2281
02:35:27,799 --> 02:35:28,760
to his throne.

2282
02:35:31,760 --> 02:35:34,120
Speaker 2: For talking about Ferdinand the seventh.

2283
02:35:35,799 --> 02:35:38,879
Speaker 1: At this point, I would yeah, fernand the seventh was

2284
02:35:40,079 --> 02:35:42,079
monarch in.

2285
02:35:41,440 --> 02:35:45,200
Speaker 2: The eighteen fourteen after the Peninsular War, they did the

2286
02:35:45,200 --> 02:35:49,040
Constitution of eighteen twelve, which was a bunch of liberal reforms,

2287
02:35:49,680 --> 02:35:52,399
and then Ferdinand the seventh was restored and basically did

2288
02:35:52,440 --> 02:35:57,000
away with it. And then there was some some type

2289
02:35:57,000 --> 02:36:00,000
of uprising where they brought it back from like eighteen

2290
02:36:00,000 --> 02:36:01,680
teen twenty to eighteen twenty three.

2291
02:36:02,360 --> 02:36:02,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2292
02:36:02,559 --> 02:36:05,239
Speaker 2: And then yeah, and then after Ferdinand the seventh died

2293
02:36:05,239 --> 02:36:08,920
in like the eighteen thirties, Isabella pretty much did away

2294
02:36:08,920 --> 02:36:11,879
with the Inquisition. Yeah, and then they had they had

2295
02:36:11,920 --> 02:36:13,319
the first Carloss.

2296
02:36:13,120 --> 02:36:16,479
Speaker 1: The first Carlist War, and yeah, I mean it just and.

2297
02:36:16,479 --> 02:36:19,319
Speaker 2: Then what a fucking mess, what a mess of a

2298
02:36:19,360 --> 02:36:20,319
country it was.

2299
02:36:20,680 --> 02:36:23,040
Speaker 1: I mean during the eighteen hundreds, it was just one

2300
02:36:23,920 --> 02:36:25,639
violent conflict out the other.

2301
02:36:26,000 --> 02:36:28,280
Speaker 2: It was like, you have all this peace time with

2302
02:36:28,360 --> 02:36:30,680
a strong bonarch in the Inquisition and then it's like

2303
02:36:30,719 --> 02:36:32,520
it had to had to make up for lost time

2304
02:36:32,559 --> 02:36:33,879
in the eighteen hundreds.

2305
02:36:35,000 --> 02:36:38,600
Speaker 1: And then, as we were talking about before we went live,

2306
02:36:40,600 --> 02:36:43,799
Marxism gets introduced O Kah to the to the mix,

2307
02:36:43,879 --> 02:36:47,600
and what a fertile ground that was for for that

2308
02:36:47,719 --> 02:36:49,120
to take take hold.

2309
02:36:49,520 --> 02:36:51,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah.

2310
02:36:51,280 --> 02:36:55,959
Speaker 1: Far more so than I mean, infinitely more so than

2311
02:36:55,959 --> 02:36:59,200
the Soviet than Russia was even in nineteen seventeen.

2312
02:36:59,639 --> 02:37:04,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like similar, similar conditions to Russia. They were

2313
02:37:04,120 --> 02:37:09,920
both like backwards, like just industrially not there not a

2314
02:37:09,959 --> 02:37:13,479
whole lot of or I should say, a whole lot

2315
02:37:13,520 --> 02:37:17,200
of loopen proletariats around just not really giving a shit.

2316
02:37:17,840 --> 02:37:22,559
But uh yeah, I mean, I guess it was just

2317
02:37:22,680 --> 02:37:26,719
ripe for both right wing and left wing revolutions Marxistan,

2318
02:37:27,600 --> 02:37:30,079
fascist and monarchist.

2319
02:37:32,680 --> 02:37:35,479
Speaker 1: For my part, I do not see what reasonable reply

2320
02:37:35,719 --> 02:37:40,079
could well be made to these striking observations. What here, however,

2321
02:37:40,200 --> 02:37:43,559
is extraordinary, and I believe very little known, is the

2322
02:37:43,600 --> 02:37:48,680
complete apology for the inquisition made by Voltaire himself, and

2323
02:37:48,760 --> 02:37:52,000
which I will lay before you as a remarkable monument

2324
02:37:52,120 --> 02:37:55,680
of that good sense which sees and admits facts, and

2325
02:37:55,760 --> 02:37:58,920
at the same time of that prejudice which is blind

2326
02:37:59,000 --> 02:38:07,159
to their causes. Many such cases, well, during the sixteenth

2327
02:38:07,200 --> 02:38:11,239
and seventeenth centuries, says Voltaire, there were not in Spain

2328
02:38:11,559 --> 02:38:16,600
any of those sanguinary revolutions, of those conspiracies, of those cruelties,

2329
02:38:16,879 --> 02:38:19,280
which were so common in the other nations. Of Europe.

2330
02:38:19,680 --> 02:38:22,760
Neither the Duke of Lerma, nor the Count nor the

2331
02:38:22,799 --> 02:38:26,600
Count Olivaris ever shed the blood of their enemies upon

2332
02:38:26,680 --> 02:38:30,799
the scaffold. Kings were never assassinated there, neither did any

2333
02:38:30,840 --> 02:38:33,520
of them perish there, as they did in England by

2334
02:38:33,520 --> 02:38:36,639
the hand of the executioner. In short, were it not

2335
02:38:36,799 --> 02:38:40,239
for the horrors of the Inquisition, there was nothing then

2336
02:38:40,360 --> 02:38:42,920
wherewith Spain could be reproached.

2337
02:38:43,559 --> 02:38:49,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, huh, man, the only mistake Spain made was the Inquisition,

2338
02:38:49,680 --> 02:38:52,280
which also happened to insulate themselves from the horrors he

2339
02:38:52,440 --> 02:38:58,399
just mentioned. Oh man, it's like you can't really draw

2340
02:38:58,399 --> 02:39:01,479
the connection, I guess, or maybe Kennedy just doesn't want to,

2341
02:39:01,760 --> 02:39:02,799
because it's.

2342
02:39:02,440 --> 02:39:10,159
Speaker 1: Like, it's like the connection of why why economics, economic

2343
02:39:10,200 --> 02:39:15,559
theory aside. Sweden could start having this gigantic like welfare

2344
02:39:15,680 --> 02:39:18,760
state in the fifties and sixties and no one in

2345
02:39:18,760 --> 02:39:20,920
the country is you know, very few people in the

2346
02:39:20,920 --> 02:39:24,760
country are complaining about it. I wonder why that is.

2347
02:39:24,840 --> 02:39:27,360
I mean, could it be that every it could could

2348
02:39:27,360 --> 02:39:29,159
it be a monoculture? I have no idea.

2349
02:39:29,799 --> 02:39:36,280
Speaker 2: If it weren't for Sweden's resistance to mass immigration. It's

2350
02:39:36,319 --> 02:39:38,639
the only thing we could hit them on otherwise they're.

2351
02:39:38,440 --> 02:39:45,040
Speaker 1: Great No blindness surely can be well greater than this.

2352
02:39:45,600 --> 02:39:48,440
Without the horrors of the Inquisition, there would be no

2353
02:39:48,559 --> 02:39:52,079
room to cast any approach on Spain, which, only by

2354
02:39:52,120 --> 02:39:55,799
the power and influences of the Inquisition escaped those horrors

2355
02:39:55,840 --> 02:40:01,360
which disgraced every other nation. Thus, rejoice at the circumstance.

2356
02:40:02,920 --> 02:40:07,079
Thus does genius chastise itself condemned to descend to the

2357
02:40:07,120 --> 02:40:11,120
lowest absurdity, even to the most pitiful nonsense, as a

2358
02:40:11,319 --> 02:40:15,639
just punishment for having prostituted itself to the defense of error.

2359
02:40:16,799 --> 02:40:20,360
Speaker 2: All right, well, he said what we said, only much

2360
02:40:20,680 --> 02:40:23,520
more eloquently, I guess.

2361
02:40:22,719 --> 02:40:28,719
Speaker 1: Very much so many such cases. Again, I am less

2362
02:40:28,719 --> 02:40:32,959
gratified with the natural superiority of men's talents than with

2363
02:40:33,079 --> 02:40:39,319
their nullity, whenever they forget their proper destination. Yeah, that's

2364
02:40:39,360 --> 02:40:42,239
a good line. It's a really good line.

2365
02:40:42,280 --> 02:40:43,440
Speaker 2: Know your place, bitch.

2366
02:40:45,639 --> 02:40:49,120
Speaker 1: After witnessing all the horrors which have disgraced and afflicted Europe,

2367
02:40:49,399 --> 02:40:53,040
how or with what face can men reproach Spain for

2368
02:40:53,120 --> 02:40:56,920
having possessed an institution which would effectually have prevented them

2369
02:40:56,920 --> 02:41:01,200
all the Holy Office? With but sixty sentences or trials

2370
02:41:01,239 --> 02:41:04,200
in a century would have saved us the frightful spectacle

2371
02:41:04,280 --> 02:41:07,440
of those heaps of human bodies mountain high as the

2372
02:41:07,520 --> 02:41:10,360
Alps and sufficient to stop the course of the Rhine

2373
02:41:10,360 --> 02:41:10,879
and the po.

2374
02:41:11,719 --> 02:41:16,680
Speaker 2: So he already in the first in the first couple episodes,

2375
02:41:16,920 --> 02:41:20,239
like what we gathered was that the Spanish Inquisition was

2376
02:41:21,319 --> 02:41:25,120
fairly minimalist. It was not like a just a mass

2377
02:41:25,239 --> 02:41:28,079
tirade of executing people left and right. That it was

2378
02:41:28,120 --> 02:41:34,239
actually pretty minimalist, pretty pretty organized, pretty pretty orderly and

2379
02:41:34,319 --> 02:41:41,319
regulated and like put putting numbers to that sixty cases

2380
02:41:41,360 --> 02:41:44,959
in a century, and that's all it took to insulate

2381
02:41:45,000 --> 02:41:48,319
themselves from again, like the religious strife that ever that

2382
02:41:48,520 --> 02:41:53,840
every other country was like bathed in. I mean, I

2383
02:41:53,879 --> 02:41:54,319
don't know.

2384
02:41:56,120 --> 02:41:59,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. And something that I think Thomas said

2385
02:41:59,399 --> 02:42:03,159
in the first episode of the Spanish Civil War series

2386
02:42:03,319 --> 02:42:09,319
was in the span of four to five centuries their

2387
02:42:09,360 --> 02:42:15,440
report three to six thousand people were put to death

2388
02:42:15,799 --> 02:42:20,120
in Spain after going before the Inquisition and then having

2389
02:42:20,200 --> 02:42:26,280
the state hand down a sentence of death, whereas in

2390
02:42:26,319 --> 02:42:29,680
the first like six months of the Spanish Civil War,

2391
02:42:30,440 --> 02:42:32,799
three thousand priests and nuns were killed.

2392
02:42:33,239 --> 02:42:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're murdered. Yeah, it's like, let's let's let's balance

2393
02:42:38,879 --> 02:42:40,319
this out.

2394
02:42:39,959 --> 02:42:42,079
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, all right.

2395
02:42:43,520 --> 02:42:48,920
Speaker 1: But of all Europeans, the French, considering the calamities which

2396
02:42:48,959 --> 02:42:52,200
they have brought upon them the world, and the still

2397
02:42:52,239 --> 02:42:56,040
more dreadful evils which they brought upon themselves and still do,

2398
02:42:58,120 --> 02:43:01,600
the French are beyond all dispute the most unpardonable critics

2399
02:43:01,639 --> 02:43:05,440
of the of the Inquisition, ridiculing Spain, as some of

2400
02:43:05,440 --> 02:43:08,639
their writers do, for the very wisdom of the institutions,

2401
02:43:08,639 --> 02:43:11,280
which alone had so long preserved it.

2402
02:43:11,920 --> 02:43:15,520
Speaker 2: Oh, man, if he gives us some numbers on the

2403
02:43:15,559 --> 02:43:19,000
reign of terror versus the entire Spanish Inquisition.

2404
02:43:20,799 --> 02:43:24,559
Speaker 1: Man, let us do justice to this illustrious nation. She

2405
02:43:24,719 --> 02:43:27,120
is one of the few nations that never became an

2406
02:43:27,159 --> 02:43:31,760
accomplice of the French Revolution. She did, indeed, at length

2407
02:43:31,799 --> 02:43:35,600
become its victim. But the blood of four hundred thousand

2408
02:43:35,639 --> 02:43:40,639
strangers sufficiently avenged her cause, and the Spaniard again resumed

2409
02:43:40,639 --> 02:43:42,200
his ancient maxims.

2410
02:43:43,079 --> 02:43:46,200
Speaker 2: All right, there it is now. Is he talking about

2411
02:43:46,200 --> 02:43:49,200
four thousand French casualties?

2412
02:43:49,360 --> 02:43:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that has to be my assumption.

2413
02:43:52,639 --> 02:43:56,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, or that could be Napoleonic War casualty. Either way,

2414
02:43:56,159 --> 02:43:59,920
it's probably no content three thousand for the Spanish equi.

2415
02:44:00,319 --> 02:44:03,959
Let's let let's bring let's bring that back. Yeah.

2416
02:44:04,000 --> 02:44:06,959
Speaker 1: The Committee of the Cortes, whom I have cited already,

2417
02:44:07,239 --> 02:44:09,879
were fully sensible of the force of the argument in

2418
02:44:09,959 --> 02:44:13,440
favor of the Inquisition, which results from the consideration of

2419
02:44:13,440 --> 02:44:17,559
the evidence that its tribunal prevented the introduction of innumerable

2420
02:44:17,600 --> 02:44:22,719
evils into the country. In order, however, to elude this

2421
02:44:22,879 --> 02:44:28,600
powerful attestation, the reporter of the said committee has ingeniously

2422
02:44:28,760 --> 02:44:34,120
found out an expeditious, and conveniently and convenient expedient which

2423
02:44:34,159 --> 02:44:37,159
is at once to deny the influence of the Inquisition.

2424
02:44:38,200 --> 02:44:41,360
The authority of the bishops, he said, had this only

2425
02:44:41,399 --> 02:44:44,879
been preserved, would have sufficed to defend Spain against the

2426
02:44:45,280 --> 02:44:51,000
late Harris Harris heresy. Heressi archs, it is not the

2427
02:44:51,040 --> 02:44:54,520
Inquisition that we are indebted. It is not to the

2428
02:44:54,559 --> 02:44:57,319
Inquisition that we are indebted for this happiness.

2429
02:44:59,440 --> 02:45:02,600
Speaker 2: Oh saying that if the bishops had just maintained their

2430
02:45:02,639 --> 02:45:05,120
original authority, that this all could have been avoided.

2431
02:45:06,120 --> 02:45:09,399
Speaker 1: It looks like he's saying that the authority of the bishops,

2432
02:45:09,799 --> 02:45:13,360
had this only been preserved, would have sufficed to defend

2433
02:45:13,479 --> 02:45:16,239
Spain against the latest He s arcs, it is not

2434
02:45:16,319 --> 02:45:19,680
to the Inquisition that we are indebted for this happiness.

2435
02:45:20,079 --> 02:45:22,680
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. I mean, maybe in like

2436
02:45:22,760 --> 02:45:26,639
the early church days where you had like Arius and

2437
02:45:27,239 --> 02:45:31,399
all them getting slapped down by ecumenical councils. But I

2438
02:45:31,399 --> 02:45:35,840
mean when you're talking about the Reformation, I don't know

2439
02:45:35,879 --> 02:45:40,000
if like the the I really don't know what the

2440
02:45:40,040 --> 02:45:45,079
structure was in Spain at the time, but it wouldn't

2441
02:45:45,079 --> 02:45:48,479
surprise me if it wasn't strong enough to kind of

2442
02:45:48,479 --> 02:45:52,399
beat down, you know, whatever sex of Protestantism would have

2443
02:45:52,399 --> 02:45:55,760
arose in Spain and the Inquisition not been in place.

2444
02:45:58,280 --> 02:46:01,959
Speaker 1: Now, sir, only remark how little prejudice and passion pay

2445
02:46:02,000 --> 02:46:06,440
attention to what they say. You have seen already in

2446
02:46:06,479 --> 02:46:10,120
my preceding letter the second, that the bishops, so far

2447
02:46:10,159 --> 02:46:14,040
from complaining of the Inquisitors, considered them on the contrary,

2448
02:46:14,440 --> 02:46:18,120
as their faithful allies in the preservation of the purity

2449
02:46:18,200 --> 02:46:23,360
of faith, but conceding everything to the Committee that it

2450
02:46:23,399 --> 02:46:27,559
may itself refute itself. If the ordinary authority of the

2451
02:46:27,600 --> 02:46:33,000
bishops was alone sufficient to repel error and to secure

2452
02:46:33,040 --> 02:46:37,239
Spain from the intrusions of heresy come, how comes it

2453
02:46:37,360 --> 02:46:41,440
that this same authority usurped by the Inquisition, and moreover

2454
02:46:41,600 --> 02:46:45,399
increased and improved by a multitude of important reforms. How

2455
02:46:45,440 --> 02:46:49,479
comes it, or how imagined that this said institution had

2456
02:46:49,520 --> 02:46:51,040
been of no use to Spain?

2457
02:46:53,920 --> 02:46:54,600
Speaker 2: The fact is.

2458
02:46:54,879 --> 02:46:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, The fact is certain and notorious that our modern

2459
02:46:59,719 --> 02:47:07,399
heress heressi archs could never set foot in Spain. Surely

2460
02:47:07,479 --> 02:47:10,799
then something must have sufficed to prevent their intrusion.

2461
02:47:11,200 --> 02:47:15,000
Speaker 2: Maybe that's the answer to my question. The original authority

2462
02:47:15,000 --> 02:47:18,319
of the bishops didn't extend to not letting, not letting

2463
02:47:18,639 --> 02:47:22,600
heretics physically enter the country, whereas the Inquisition did.

2464
02:47:24,360 --> 02:47:26,719
Speaker 1: It was not the power of the bishops, since the

2465
02:47:26,719 --> 02:47:29,920
Inquisition had deprived them of it. Neither, according to the

2466
02:47:29,920 --> 02:47:35,520
Committee of the Cortes, was it the Inquisition itself. Again,

2467
02:47:36,040 --> 02:47:39,440
it was not to the civil tribunals nor to the

2468
02:47:39,479 --> 02:47:43,440
governors of provinces, etc. That the above benefits are to

2469
02:47:43,479 --> 02:47:47,680
be attributed, because the Inquisition possessed the exclusive jurisdiction in

2470
02:47:47,760 --> 02:47:53,680
all matters relating to religion. Therefore, once more, since something

2471
02:47:54,520 --> 02:47:58,680
or other did suffice, what was that all sufficient instrument?

2472
02:48:00,479 --> 02:48:03,280
If the Committee did not see this. The sole reason

2473
02:48:03,399 --> 02:48:06,120
must have been that they shut their eyes and would

2474
02:48:06,159 --> 02:48:06,719
not see it.

2475
02:48:07,040 --> 02:48:11,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's leading the question, Well, yeah, in a good way,

2476
02:48:12,079 --> 02:48:18,200
like come on, you idiot, But.

2477
02:48:18,200 --> 02:48:20,959
Speaker 1: I defy any man who has eyes and is willing

2478
02:48:21,000 --> 02:48:24,760
to see not to be convinced that since every European

2479
02:48:24,840 --> 02:48:28,040
nation span alone, and certain states which had more or

2480
02:48:28,159 --> 02:48:31,920
less adopted the jurisdiction and forms of the Inquisition expected,

2481
02:48:32,559 --> 02:48:36,120
it is consequently but just and reasonable to attribute the

2482
02:48:36,159 --> 02:48:39,239
preservation and peace of Spain to the power and influence

2483
02:48:39,639 --> 02:48:42,639
and to the power and influence alone of the Inquisition,

2484
02:48:43,079 --> 02:48:49,600
above all, since no other cause can be assigned. Suppose,

2485
02:48:49,680 --> 02:48:54,000
for example, that in the fourteenth century, one single nation

2486
02:48:54,319 --> 02:48:59,200
had alone escaped the dreadful pestilence which then desolated Europe.

2487
02:49:00,120 --> 02:49:04,280
This fortunate country hereafter boasted that it possessed a system

2488
02:49:04,319 --> 02:49:09,079
of prophylactics, a remedy announced and prepared for the salutary

2489
02:49:09,319 --> 02:49:14,239
for the salutary effect, a remedy long and constantly made

2490
02:49:14,479 --> 02:49:18,120
use of, and whose healthy and preservative ingredients it was

2491
02:49:18,159 --> 02:49:21,200
willing to make known. It surely would in such case

2492
02:49:21,360 --> 02:49:24,319
be utterly unreasonable to tell such nation that it owed

2493
02:49:24,399 --> 02:49:28,120
nothing to the boasted remedy, and that other remedies would

2494
02:49:28,120 --> 02:49:31,719
have equally sufficed for the same purpose, whereas all other

2495
02:49:31,760 --> 02:49:36,319
remedies neither had nor would have anywhere sufficed save in

2496
02:49:36,360 --> 02:49:37,280
this one nation.

2497
02:49:37,479 --> 02:49:42,000
Speaker 2: A line I love. I love the implicit comparison of

2498
02:49:42,239 --> 02:49:48,520
Protestantism and Judaism and Islam to the bubonic plague. I

2499
02:49:48,559 --> 02:49:53,840
love it. I am fucking rock hard right now.

2500
02:49:56,840 --> 02:50:01,200
Speaker 1: I was waiting for that, and not for you to

2501
02:50:01,200 --> 02:50:05,079
get rock hard, for you to say, well, maybe I

2502
02:50:05,120 --> 02:50:09,559
don't know. In making this apology for the Inquisition, I

2503
02:50:09,559 --> 02:50:14,000
should pass over an important circumstance. If I did not

2504
02:50:14,159 --> 02:50:17,520
request you to remark the influence of this institution upon

2505
02:50:17,559 --> 02:50:22,040
the Spanish character. If this nation so long preserved its maxims,

2506
02:50:22,120 --> 02:50:25,319
its unity of faith, its public spirit, it was solely

2507
02:50:25,360 --> 02:50:28,680
to the Inquisition, and that it owed these benefits. For

2508
02:50:28,920 --> 02:50:31,719
only look at that miserable host of men who have

2509
02:50:31,799 --> 02:50:35,920
been formed in the schools of modern philosophy. What did

2510
02:50:35,959 --> 02:50:40,319
these men do for Spain? Evil and nothing else but evil?

2511
02:50:40,959 --> 02:50:45,120
They alone called in or promoted tyranny. They alone, instead

2512
02:50:45,159 --> 02:50:49,079
of rousing a noble resistance and a spirit of unshaken fidelity,

2513
02:50:49,360 --> 02:50:52,799
preached only those half measures which had well nigh ruined

2514
02:50:52,840 --> 02:51:00,319
the nation, obedience to the Empire, of circumstances, timidity, weakness, delays, concessions, etc.

2515
02:51:01,559 --> 02:51:04,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that one goes out to you, Voltaire.

2516
02:51:07,040 --> 02:51:10,760
Speaker 1: If Spain be ever destined to perish, it is these

2517
02:51:11,200 --> 02:51:14,319
or such men as these that will prove the authors

2518
02:51:14,360 --> 02:51:19,559
of her ruin. That was so prophetic, so prophetic.

2519
02:51:20,000 --> 02:51:22,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's talking about liberals.

2520
02:51:24,799 --> 02:51:28,239
Speaker 1: There are indeed multitudes of superficial men who believe and

2521
02:51:28,280 --> 02:51:32,000
have contended that in her late struggles she was saved

2522
02:51:32,040 --> 02:51:35,600
by the Cortes, whereas she was saved directly in spite

2523
02:51:35,639 --> 02:51:40,239
of the Cortes. It was the people that did everything.

2524
02:51:40,760 --> 02:51:43,559
There were it may be among the enemies of the

2525
02:51:43,559 --> 02:51:47,760
Inquisition and among the partisans of philosophy, a few individuals,

2526
02:51:48,079 --> 02:51:51,239
true Spaniards who were capable of laying down their lives

2527
02:51:51,239 --> 02:51:54,440
for their country. But what could these men have done

2528
02:51:54,520 --> 02:51:58,440
without the people? And in their turn, what could or

2529
02:51:58,479 --> 02:52:01,840
would the people have done had they not led had

2530
02:52:01,879 --> 02:52:05,159
they not been led on by their national ideas and

2531
02:52:05,239 --> 02:52:12,600
animated above all by what men now call superstition. Yeah,

2532
02:52:12,600 --> 02:52:16,079
he's he's preaching.

2533
02:52:16,680 --> 02:52:21,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like hammering it home. Yeah, But uh, it

2534
02:52:21,719 --> 02:52:25,000
was like, all right, get to your next point. I'm convinced.

2535
02:52:25,120 --> 02:52:26,959
I was convinced five paragraphs ago.

2536
02:52:28,079 --> 02:52:31,959
Speaker 1: If you wish to extinguish that enthusiasm which inspires great

2537
02:52:32,040 --> 02:52:35,559
thoughts and impels to noble enterprises, if you wish to

2538
02:52:35,600 --> 02:52:38,959
render men's hearts cold and unfeeling, it's a substitute egotism

2539
02:52:39,239 --> 02:52:42,600
in the room of generous and ardent patriotism. If you

2540
02:52:42,639 --> 02:52:45,159
wish to do this, only take away from the people

2541
02:52:45,200 --> 02:52:48,840
their faith and make them philosophers. Oh, it's a fucking

2542
02:52:48,879 --> 02:52:49,799
line in the whole book.

2543
02:52:49,959 --> 02:52:52,719
Speaker 2: Let me frame that. Let me frame that and put

2544
02:52:52,719 --> 02:52:53,479
that on my wall.

2545
02:52:53,879 --> 02:52:55,799
Speaker 1: That's the best line in the whole book.

2546
02:52:56,000 --> 02:53:00,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, there really is so true, so true.

2547
02:53:02,760 --> 02:53:06,520
Speaker 1: Oh man, all right. There is not in Europe one

2548
02:53:06,600 --> 02:53:09,799
single nation or one body of people so little known

2549
02:53:10,200 --> 02:53:15,200
or so much calmulated as the Spaniards. Spanish superstition has

2550
02:53:15,280 --> 02:53:18,639
become a proverb, and yet nothing is more groundless. The

2551
02:53:18,719 --> 02:53:21,639
higher orders of the nation are as well educated and

2552
02:53:21,680 --> 02:53:23,440
as enlightened as we are.

2553
02:53:24,000 --> 02:53:27,760
Speaker 2: And who is in charge of their education? Catholic Church.

2554
02:53:29,520 --> 02:53:32,639
Speaker 1: In regard to the lower classes, it may be, for example,

2555
02:53:32,760 --> 02:53:35,520
in relation to the veneration paid to the saints and

2556
02:53:35,600 --> 02:53:39,000
rather to their images. It may be that they sometimes,

2557
02:53:39,040 --> 02:53:42,479
and here and there exceed the measure of wise devotion.

2558
02:53:43,719 --> 02:53:47,360
But as here the dogma itself is neither violated nor denied.

2559
02:53:47,680 --> 02:53:51,360
So the trifling abuses prevailing amongst a certain portion of

2560
02:53:51,399 --> 02:53:55,559
the ignorant and the simple matter very little in these regards. Nay,

2561
02:53:55,879 --> 02:53:58,479
they are not, even, as I could easily show you,

2562
02:53:58,760 --> 02:53:59,879
without their advantages.

2563
02:54:01,559 --> 02:54:06,040
Speaker 2: He's talking about, uh, like saying that they might be

2564
02:54:06,079 --> 02:54:07,440
a little bit iconoclastic.

2565
02:54:15,680 --> 02:54:17,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's.

2566
02:54:17,280 --> 02:54:23,319
Speaker 2: Uh or I guess their critics might be a little iconoclastic,

2567
02:54:23,360 --> 02:54:28,319
I should say, why is usually a Protestant critique of

2568
02:54:28,920 --> 02:54:33,479
any Catholic nations? You know, you worship statues and Mary,

2569
02:54:33,559 --> 02:54:33,959
I guess.

2570
02:54:34,760 --> 02:54:37,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2571
02:54:38,000 --> 02:54:41,079
Speaker 1: But at all events, that is true that the Spaniard

2572
02:54:41,120 --> 02:54:44,639
has less prejudice and fewer superstitions than those very people

2573
02:54:44,639 --> 02:54:49,280
who laugh at him, without ever having reflected upon themselves us.

2574
02:54:49,399 --> 02:54:52,920
You know, I dare say, a number of respectable individuals

2575
02:54:52,959 --> 02:54:56,079
in the first rank of society who sincerely and firmly

2576
02:54:56,120 --> 02:55:01,559
believe in amulets, apparitions, sympathetic remedies, dream fortune tellers, and

2577
02:55:01,600 --> 02:55:03,239
many such like fooleries.

2578
02:55:04,479 --> 02:55:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean he's writing this in the early

2579
02:55:09,639 --> 02:55:13,360
eighteen hundreds they were I mean, they still had an empire,

2580
02:55:15,440 --> 02:55:19,440
you know, and I'm sure, like I guess who imported

2581
02:55:19,639 --> 02:55:23,520
from who those superstitions, because you know, you go to

2582
02:55:23,600 --> 02:55:29,840
Latin America and I am that's now if you wanted

2583
02:55:29,840 --> 02:55:32,280
to make fun of them for being superstitious, I totally

2584
02:55:32,280 --> 02:55:35,239
get it. I don't know enough about like European Spaniards

2585
02:55:35,280 --> 02:55:38,799
to make any judgment on like if they're in any

2586
02:55:38,799 --> 02:55:44,040
way comparable to your average Spanish descended Latin American.

2587
02:55:44,680 --> 02:55:47,319
Speaker 1: They they're very different people.

2588
02:55:47,799 --> 02:55:48,079
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2589
02:55:48,200 --> 02:55:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, all you have to do is go to Puerto

2590
02:55:51,120 --> 02:55:53,840
Rico and you can you can tell the people who

2591
02:55:53,879 --> 02:55:56,760
are descended from Spain and the people who are the

2592
02:55:56,840 --> 02:56:00,120
Tayano who are native to the quote unquote native to

2593
02:56:00,600 --> 02:56:01,079
the island.

2594
02:56:01,639 --> 02:56:03,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a big difference.

2595
02:56:05,280 --> 02:56:07,559
Speaker 1: You have seen persons refuse to sit at the table

2596
02:56:07,600 --> 02:56:11,360
where unfortunately, the number of the uninvited guests was twelve.

2597
02:56:11,799 --> 02:56:14,639
Speaker 2: Who I'm going to start doing that?

2598
02:56:17,479 --> 02:56:20,239
Speaker 1: I agree that again, that's pretty good. You have seen

2599
02:56:20,600 --> 02:56:23,360
persons refuse to sit at a table where unfortunately the

2600
02:56:23,479 --> 02:56:26,280
number of the invited guests was twelve. Who would change

2601
02:56:26,399 --> 02:56:31,959
color if an unlucky waiter chanced chance profanely to overturn

2602
02:56:32,040 --> 02:56:36,440
the salt cellar, who, upon no consideration whatsoever, would set

2603
02:56:36,440 --> 02:56:40,200
out on a journey on such and such a day, etc. Well, sir,

2604
02:56:40,760 --> 02:56:43,399
go into Spain. There you will be surprised to me

2605
02:56:43,920 --> 02:56:48,040
with none of these silly and humiliating superstitions. The reason

2606
02:56:48,120 --> 02:56:51,479
is that as real religious principle is essentially opposed to

2607
02:56:51,520 --> 02:56:55,920
all such empty fancies and beliefs, so whersoever it prevails,

2608
02:56:56,200 --> 02:56:59,040
it is sure always to despise and disregard them.

2609
02:56:59,600 --> 02:57:01,799
Speaker 2: I wish you would name the people that had those

2610
02:57:01,879 --> 02:57:06,760
superstitions that he just mentioned, Like, I guarantee it's the English,

2611
02:57:08,280 --> 02:57:11,079
like I've heard like spilling assault is bad luck, and

2612
02:57:11,520 --> 02:57:13,440
I think that's a pretty well known one. But like

2613
02:57:13,520 --> 02:57:15,959
the number of guests being twelve, that has to be

2614
02:57:16,040 --> 02:57:20,399
like an old Anglo Saxon fucking superstition.

2615
02:57:22,120 --> 02:57:24,280
Speaker 1: That that wouldn't be shocking at all.

2616
02:57:24,680 --> 02:57:24,719
Speaker 2: You.

2617
02:57:25,399 --> 02:57:27,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2618
02:57:28,360 --> 02:57:32,040
Speaker 1: The reason is that as religious, real religious principle is

2619
02:57:32,159 --> 02:57:35,959
essentially opposed to all such empty fancies and beliefs, so

2620
02:57:36,079 --> 02:57:39,840
wheresoever it prevails, it is sure always to despise and

2621
02:57:39,879 --> 02:57:42,799
disregard them. At the same time, it is also true

2622
02:57:42,799 --> 02:57:45,760
that the contempt of such follies is founded more or

2623
02:57:45,840 --> 02:57:49,200
less upon the national good sense of the Spaniard.

2624
02:57:52,559 --> 02:57:55,959
Speaker 2: But okay, yah, all right, yeah.

2625
02:57:55,799 --> 02:58:01,120
Speaker 1: You give it, allow it. But after all there is

2626
02:58:01,159 --> 02:58:04,159
no mercy for Spain. Not only do the English writers

2627
02:58:04,159 --> 02:58:07,959
in particular incessantly invey against the Inquisition, but even its

2628
02:58:08,000 --> 02:58:11,600
ministers declared in Parliament this was in the year eighteen fourteen,

2629
02:58:12,000 --> 02:58:16,159
that they had that they had done everything in their power,

2630
02:58:16,200 --> 02:58:20,000
by the way of remonstrances and representations, to oppose the

2631
02:58:20,079 --> 02:58:23,399
shameful measures of the Spanish authorities, and above all the

2632
02:58:23,479 --> 02:58:28,360
re establishment of the detestable Inquisition. Yep, that is so British.

2633
02:58:28,399 --> 02:58:30,920
That is such a British sentence right there.

2634
02:58:30,959 --> 02:58:34,520
Speaker 2: It's just yeah, yeah, yeah, were what were they doing

2635
02:58:34,559 --> 02:58:38,239
in eighteen fourteen? Were weren't they across the ocean doing

2636
02:58:38,239 --> 02:58:43,879
something stupid? I wonder how many sailors the Spanish impressed.

2637
02:58:45,959 --> 02:58:47,879
Speaker 1: Now, for my own part, and I will say it

2638
02:58:47,920 --> 02:58:51,360
with all the sincerity of my feelings, and after reflecting

2639
02:58:51,440 --> 02:58:53,719
upon what I have written upon the subject, for my

2640
02:58:53,799 --> 02:58:57,840
own part, I cannot discover what there is so detestable

2641
02:58:57,879 --> 02:59:02,360
in the famous Inquisition. However, an accusation so solemn as

2642
02:59:02,399 --> 02:59:06,159
the above, and made in so honorable an assembly calls

2643
02:59:06,239 --> 02:59:10,479
upon me to devote it to a few particular observations.

2644
02:59:10,719 --> 02:59:13,840
I hope, therefore, in the succeeding letter to convince your

2645
02:59:14,319 --> 02:59:17,639
Lordship that, amid all the nations of Europe, the English

2646
02:59:17,680 --> 02:59:21,399
have the least right to reproach Spain with its inquisition.

2647
02:59:21,719 --> 02:59:22,520
Speaker 2: I can't wait.

2648
02:59:24,879 --> 02:59:28,239
Speaker 1: And judge. And that's the ending of the that's the

2649
02:59:28,319 --> 02:59:29,200
ending of the fourth letter.

2650
02:59:29,719 --> 02:59:30,440
Speaker 2: Oh damn it.

2651
02:59:34,120 --> 02:59:38,000
Speaker 1: Well, I mean part of this is I got microm

2652
02:59:38,040 --> 02:59:41,760
Imperium Press to give the Okay, I'm doing this, and

2653
02:59:43,479 --> 02:59:45,200
part of this is to get people to go to

2654
02:59:45,239 --> 02:59:51,079
Imperium Press and see the incredible, the incredible literature they're

2655
02:59:51,079 --> 02:59:54,239
putting out, and especially this one. This is a quick read.

2656
02:59:54,280 --> 02:59:56,440
I mean you could read all the letters in an afternoon.

2657
02:59:57,000 --> 03:00:00,680
The notes are really good too, So we didn't read

2658
03:00:00,719 --> 03:00:03,159
any of the notes, but there are some notes in

2659
03:00:03,200 --> 03:00:10,440
there that are good explainers. But yeah, the this letter

2660
03:00:10,479 --> 03:00:17,040
particularly hit me hard because of the the way he

2661
03:00:17,239 --> 03:00:21,959
just went after the philosopher of the day.

2662
03:00:22,639 --> 03:00:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, the the justification just based on body count

2663
03:00:27,879 --> 03:00:31,840
alone when you compare it to other European countries. That

2664
03:00:31,840 --> 03:00:39,440
that was Yeah, that that got me. My co host.

2665
03:00:40,719 --> 03:00:43,719
Speaker 1: Always does that, always does that, always has to make

2666
03:00:43,760 --> 03:00:46,360
a make an appearance. But the.

2667
03:00:48,319 --> 03:00:51,079
Speaker 2: But yeah, think about it, like and how many other

2668
03:00:51,159 --> 03:00:55,399
instances have there been in history, like from a country

2669
03:00:55,440 --> 03:00:59,600
that's been maligned, uh, like you know, from the from

2670
03:00:59,639 --> 03:01:02,760
the spear, the spirit of the day. They just happen

2671
03:01:02,840 --> 03:01:05,200
to be the country that's behind the times on whatever

2672
03:01:05,319 --> 03:01:11,040
insane things going on, and is maligned and is constantly

2673
03:01:11,760 --> 03:01:16,920
invoked as tyrannical and evil and repressive, when if you

2674
03:01:17,000 --> 03:01:22,280
compare them to other countries, you know, aren't by whatever metric,

2675
03:01:22,360 --> 03:01:27,239
they're not they whatever they whatever evil they've done, they've

2676
03:01:27,280 --> 03:01:32,440
they probably spared themselves compared to other countries. But you

2677
03:01:32,559 --> 03:01:33,399
know that transition.

2678
03:01:34,479 --> 03:01:38,840
Speaker 1: Really what happens here is if you want to take

2679
03:01:39,040 --> 03:01:42,840
I mean, I know Demeestra says that the he considers

2680
03:01:42,840 --> 03:01:45,239
the Inquisition to have started in the twelve hundreds, but

2681
03:01:45,680 --> 03:01:50,399
really you're talking about fourteen ninety two ish, the fourteen nineties.

2682
03:01:50,680 --> 03:01:55,719
But the Conquista, what happens twenty what starts happening twenty

2683
03:01:55,719 --> 03:01:59,840
five years later? The Protestant Protestant revolt.

2684
03:02:00,360 --> 03:02:01,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and.

2685
03:02:04,200 --> 03:02:07,000
Speaker 1: What do you get? You get all of these writings

2686
03:02:07,079 --> 03:02:12,799
and these these screeds and books written against the Catholic Church,

2687
03:02:14,120 --> 03:02:18,719
and the easiest, the easiest thing to do would be

2688
03:02:18,920 --> 03:02:24,559
to point the finger at a country that these people

2689
03:02:24,559 --> 03:02:27,959
didn't go to. I mean, they didn't you know, they

2690
03:02:27,959 --> 03:02:32,000
didn't visit. They just heard stories. Yeah, you know, and

2691
03:02:32,040 --> 03:02:34,360
it you know, there was no internet, you know, there

2692
03:02:34,440 --> 03:02:38,159
was no carrier pigeon probably.

2693
03:02:39,159 --> 03:02:43,319
Speaker 2: Hearing the stories from the people that got kicked out. Yeah,

2694
03:02:43,360 --> 03:02:47,120
oh it was awful. Yeah, and they took all my shels.

2695
03:02:49,520 --> 03:02:58,159
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, when you're when you feel like when you've

2696
03:02:58,200 --> 03:03:02,600
just revolted against something, you're going to do everything. You know,

2697
03:03:02,639 --> 03:03:04,079
a lot a lot of times you're going to do

2698
03:03:04,120 --> 03:03:08,200
everything you can, especially in this case because there were persecutions.

2699
03:03:08,319 --> 03:03:14,639
And not going to say I'm not going to accuse

2700
03:03:14,680 --> 03:03:18,200
anybody of making stuff up, not going to accuse anybody

2701
03:03:18,200 --> 03:03:23,440
of lying, but I will say that it is when

2702
03:03:24,079 --> 03:03:28,840
at a time when conspiracy theories were I mean they

2703
03:03:28,879 --> 03:03:32,799
were everywhere. I mean, conspiracy theories started the Revolutionary war

2704
03:03:32,879 --> 03:03:36,399
in this country. It's without a doubt. I mean that's

2705
03:03:36,239 --> 03:03:40,200
that's been proven over and over again. When can when

2706
03:03:40,239 --> 03:03:43,120
you just have all these stories about what's coming out

2707
03:03:43,159 --> 03:03:49,319
of a nation that is probably the most at that time,

2708
03:03:52,440 --> 03:03:58,920
the most connected to Rome to the Vatican. Well there

2709
03:03:59,120 --> 03:04:00,479
they become an easy at.

2710
03:04:00,440 --> 03:04:05,799
Speaker 2: That point, Oh yeah, absolutely, and the entirety of the

2711
03:04:05,799 --> 03:04:08,600
rest of Europe was embroiled. And you know in the

2712
03:04:09,799 --> 03:04:13,799
in the sixteenth century you had the Reformation and then

2713
03:04:14,079 --> 03:04:17,399
you know, war after war after war, and then when

2714
03:04:17,440 --> 03:04:20,000
that kind of settled down, you had the Enlightenment, which

2715
03:04:20,399 --> 03:04:23,440
also made an enemy out of Spain. Like you know,

2716
03:04:23,639 --> 03:04:28,200
they didn't stand a chance. And and yet they they

2717
03:04:28,239 --> 03:04:31,719
managed for up until the eighteen hundreds to kind of

2718
03:04:31,760 --> 03:04:35,559
insulate themselves from the consequences of both of those those

2719
03:04:35,639 --> 03:04:36,399
those ages.

2720
03:04:37,319 --> 03:04:42,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, while everybody else was I mean there was

2721
03:04:44,239 --> 03:04:46,559
in the later half of the century and the I

2722
03:04:46,600 --> 03:04:50,680
guess the the mid to the later half of the

2723
03:04:50,680 --> 03:04:54,399
century when yeah, we had the war here and there

2724
03:04:54,440 --> 03:04:59,920
were some wars happening, but it was almost like the

2725
03:05:00,040 --> 03:05:04,239
old old kind of wars where they were localized. And

2726
03:05:06,239 --> 03:05:11,639
but Spain is having like revolutions after I mean, just

2727
03:05:11,879 --> 03:05:17,280
one after another, and it's just internal turmoil and then

2728
03:05:17,360 --> 03:05:24,120
you throw when you heap Marxism being created onto it,

2729
03:05:24,239 --> 03:05:31,200
and many people in in Spain very open to it.

2730
03:05:31,239 --> 03:05:36,000
Who have I mean immediate almost immediately upon a hearing,

2731
03:05:36,280 --> 03:05:40,760
hearing it become anarchists start calling themselves anarchists. I mean,

2732
03:05:40,920 --> 03:05:46,280
you're just you're going off a cliff. Yeah, I mean

2733
03:05:47,440 --> 03:05:49,920
they also lose your You also lose your world empire,

2734
03:05:50,000 --> 03:05:56,719
you lose your you lose lands to the to America

2735
03:05:56,840 --> 03:05:58,000
and yeah.

2736
03:05:58,000 --> 03:06:01,719
Speaker 2: And the Napoleonic Wars just fun everything like it was.

2737
03:06:03,120 --> 03:06:06,479
If you were a country in Europe after the Napoleonic Wars,

2738
03:06:06,520 --> 03:06:13,159
you either successfully restored your monarchy and reacted against all

2739
03:06:13,200 --> 03:06:18,680
these bourgeois revolutions by consolidating your power, or you didn't.

2740
03:06:19,079 --> 03:06:21,879
You ended up not reacting enough and then becoming like

2741
03:06:22,040 --> 03:06:27,399
just a fucking a war torn hellhole between competing ideologies.

2742
03:06:28,799 --> 03:06:29,799
Speaker 1: Many such cases.

2743
03:06:30,120 --> 03:06:34,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. It kind of begs the question, like where

2744
03:06:34,319 --> 03:06:39,719
are we at as far as competing ideologies go. I mean,

2745
03:06:39,760 --> 03:06:42,479
if we can glean and I know that like history

2746
03:06:42,479 --> 03:06:47,200
doesn't actually repeat itself, everything's unique, but like, is there

2747
03:06:47,239 --> 03:06:50,639
anything we can glean from just the history of Spain

2748
03:06:53,360 --> 03:06:56,520
or anything to apply to today? When I think of

2749
03:06:56,680 --> 03:06:59,719
Spain in the eighteen hundreds and how maligned it was,

2750
03:06:59,760 --> 03:07:03,639
I think think of Russia today, and like, has Russia

2751
03:07:03,760 --> 03:07:06,239
done anything to insulate itself after the fall of the

2752
03:07:06,239 --> 03:07:11,120
Soviet Union from you know, the effects of packs Americana.

2753
03:07:12,520 --> 03:07:15,479
Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that I see in some

2754
03:07:15,559 --> 03:07:20,239
people have commented to me is that the way the

2755
03:07:20,360 --> 03:07:28,600
United States is right now could very well doesn't mirror perfectly,

2756
03:07:29,280 --> 03:07:34,280
but definitely mirrors Spain in the early nineteen thirties, the.

2757
03:07:34,239 --> 03:07:39,920
Speaker 2: Earlier Yeah, yeah, I mean it there's a chance though.

2758
03:07:40,000 --> 03:07:46,600
I mean, on my most black pilled moments, I would

2759
03:07:46,600 --> 03:07:50,639
probably say it could also mirror Spain and the fifteen

2760
03:07:50,719 --> 03:07:57,159
fifties at the apex of its power, like the monarchy's consolidated,

2761
03:07:57,200 --> 03:08:01,000
and we got a little while before anything pops off. Yeah, well,

2762
03:08:03,559 --> 03:08:05,600
you know, I mean, mm hmm.

2763
03:08:07,520 --> 03:08:10,600
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's I was just writing on this

2764
03:08:10,760 --> 03:08:16,360
today where it's just the worst thing about what we're

2765
03:08:16,399 --> 03:08:22,280
going through now is just the fact that rage porn, Yeah,

2766
03:08:22,479 --> 03:08:25,159
is you just open any social media app and it's

2767
03:08:25,239 --> 03:08:29,200
rage porn. You can any browser and you have rage

2768
03:08:29,200 --> 03:08:34,840
porn right on the front, and it is. Yeah. People

2769
03:08:34,879 --> 03:08:36,920
contact me all the time and they're just like, I

2770
03:08:37,239 --> 03:08:39,280
don't know what to do, you know. It's just like,

2771
03:08:39,360 --> 03:08:43,159
I mean, you know, and I just say, you got

2772
03:08:43,159 --> 03:08:46,360
a family to take care of. Yeah, that's what you

2773
03:08:46,360 --> 03:08:47,959
should be concentrating on right now.

2774
03:08:48,319 --> 03:08:53,319
Speaker 2: And like even that approach, I guess that you're trying

2775
03:08:53,319 --> 03:08:58,639
to wake You're trying to make people conscious of what

2776
03:08:58,639 --> 03:09:02,760
what they're what their interests are. And I think that,

2777
03:09:03,319 --> 03:09:06,159
I mean, I I completely agree no matter who you are,

2778
03:09:06,440 --> 03:09:09,319
if you're looking at the world and falling into despair

2779
03:09:09,639 --> 03:09:14,600
or getting angry if you want to, if you want

2780
03:09:14,639 --> 03:09:18,000
to immerse yourself in some type of consciousness like race

2781
03:09:18,120 --> 03:09:22,520
or class or whatever, no matter what, like taking care

2782
03:09:22,559 --> 03:09:26,799
of your family, getting involved in your community, and you know,

2783
03:09:27,840 --> 03:09:31,840
just insulating yourself from the rest of the world. You

2784
03:09:31,879 --> 03:09:34,120
can get as mad about it as you want, but uh,

2785
03:09:34,440 --> 03:09:39,360
you know that's that's that's your obligation, your primary obligation,

2786
03:09:39,440 --> 03:09:44,440
no matter what where you find yourself being drawn to ideologically,

2787
03:09:45,079 --> 03:09:50,120
because ideology doesn't exist in reality, but your family does. Yeah,

2788
03:09:50,559 --> 03:09:51,639
you community does.

2789
03:09:52,399 --> 03:09:55,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I know Alabama is a you know, a

2790
03:09:55,760 --> 03:09:58,879
super majority red state and everything, but you know I do,

2791
03:09:59,000 --> 03:10:00,719
at least for a few more our weeks living in

2792
03:10:00,760 --> 03:10:04,639
college town. And like today when I went to the

2793
03:10:04,680 --> 03:10:08,000
grocery store, was the first time I like actually saw

2794
03:10:08,159 --> 03:10:11,600
something that was like eye rolling, you know, yeah, some

2795
03:10:12,159 --> 03:10:17,479
you know, a woman wearing a read banned book shirt,

2796
03:10:17,799 --> 03:10:20,479
and I don't think she wasn't talking about like, you know,

2797
03:10:20,799 --> 03:10:24,360
mine comfer. So I'm pretty I'm pretty sure it wasn't that.

2798
03:10:24,680 --> 03:10:29,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know that. I was posted on

2799
03:10:29,799 --> 03:10:34,680
some some college professor was bitching about like, oh, they're

2800
03:10:34,719 --> 03:10:39,879
banning like basically the the gay porn from kindergartener's libraries.

2801
03:10:40,760 --> 03:10:44,600
And I was like, I was like, I listed a

2802
03:10:44,639 --> 03:10:46,680
bunch of books that, like, you know, some of them

2803
03:10:46,680 --> 03:10:49,520
that we've we've done live readings on and a couple

2804
03:10:49,559 --> 03:10:51,280
of ones that I read. I was like, I want

2805
03:10:51,319 --> 03:10:54,520
these books of those libraries because I think, you know, naturally,

2806
03:10:54,600 --> 03:10:56,040
my kids are just going to grow up to be

2807
03:10:56,079 --> 03:10:59,440
an eth internationalist totally organically.

2808
03:10:59,399 --> 03:11:03,920
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I think we need We definitely could

2809
03:11:03,959 --> 03:11:05,000
definitely use some.

2810
03:11:07,120 --> 03:11:12,120
Speaker 2: It was like the Turner Diaries or high school for kids. Yeah,

2811
03:11:12,520 --> 03:11:14,799
mine comp like, can we can we get them in

2812
03:11:14,879 --> 03:11:16,239
some libraries.

2813
03:11:17,280 --> 03:11:20,360
Speaker 1: That a new nobility of blood and soil for for kids?

2814
03:11:22,120 --> 03:11:25,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm yeah, that's what I said, Like, Oh yes,

2815
03:11:26,000 --> 03:11:28,879
I'm I'm a I'm a publisher of children's books. I'm

2816
03:11:28,879 --> 03:11:33,319
making versions of my comp I've really I've really loved

2817
03:11:33,360 --> 03:11:34,840
to know where your public library is.

2818
03:11:35,680 --> 03:11:38,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw that. Did you get any response on that,

2819
03:11:38,559 --> 03:11:43,600
because yeah, yeah, I get responses on that. I get

2820
03:11:43,639 --> 03:11:44,920
called the Nazi all the time.

2821
03:11:45,079 --> 03:11:48,159
Speaker 2: So yeah, well that means you must be doing something right.

2822
03:11:48,399 --> 03:11:52,680
Speaker 1: Yes, somebody today, Oh, you're a Nazi and you're a racist,

2823
03:11:52,719 --> 03:11:55,399
and it's like and what what what where are we

2824
03:11:55,440 --> 03:11:55,799
going with this?

2825
03:11:56,520 --> 03:11:59,200
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get called a Nazi and a communist

2826
03:11:59,280 --> 03:12:02,280
on the same day. That's my holy girl. Yeah. There.

2827
03:12:04,520 --> 03:12:09,879
Speaker 1: Somebody at National Review did a very shitty review of

2828
03:12:10,600 --> 03:12:17,000
Paul Gottfried the thing he just did, Palo Conservative Anthology yep,

2829
03:12:17,319 --> 03:12:22,079
and called them said it was right wing Marxism.

2830
03:12:22,319 --> 03:12:25,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, buddy, I wish.

2831
03:12:25,840 --> 03:12:30,799
Speaker 1: And it's funny as they Chronicles podcast, which has become

2832
03:12:31,280 --> 03:12:34,479
like a staple of mind, they did Paul, Paul did

2833
03:12:34,479 --> 03:12:37,600
that and they answered that, and it was like, what

2834
03:12:37,639 --> 03:12:41,479
are you talking about? And they mentioned Sam Francis. I mean,

2835
03:12:41,760 --> 03:12:44,959
can you imagine calling Sam Francis a Marxist?

2836
03:12:45,680 --> 03:12:50,239
Speaker 2: No, Like, I mean, I I could maybe infer that

2837
03:12:50,280 --> 03:12:53,920
he's he's some things I don't like, but like not

2838
03:12:53,959 --> 03:12:54,600
a Marxist.

2839
03:12:55,120 --> 03:12:56,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just.

2840
03:12:58,040 --> 03:13:01,200
Speaker 1: What is that gonna be the new the new quote

2841
03:13:01,239 --> 03:13:05,600
unquote right wing conning cope and everything everything I don't

2842
03:13:05,680 --> 03:13:07,559
like to the right of me as a Marxist.

2843
03:13:08,000 --> 03:13:11,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're They're perfectly fine with calling anybody they don't

2844
03:13:11,280 --> 03:13:13,760
like Marxists one day, and then they'll call them a

2845
03:13:13,760 --> 03:13:16,840
fascist the next day, a nazi. You know, depends on,

2846
03:13:16,959 --> 03:13:19,680
uh depends on who they're trying to, you know, get

2847
03:13:19,799 --> 03:13:24,799
get their donations from at the time. Yeah, we really

2848
03:13:24,879 --> 03:13:27,079
need a spot on CNN. Let's call them a nazi.

2849
03:13:28,799 --> 03:13:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, MSNBC. I'm sure you see as Rachel Maddow even

2850
03:13:36,120 --> 03:13:39,079
on TV anymore. I don't even know who's on TV anymore.

2851
03:13:39,159 --> 03:13:42,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just don't. I mean, I don't care. The

2852
03:13:42,200 --> 03:13:46,760
last vestige of uh like cable news that I watched

2853
03:13:46,879 --> 03:13:49,719
was Tucker and that's gone. So I really have no

2854
03:13:49,840 --> 03:13:54,399
reason to turn on like nationally syndicated news anymore. If

2855
03:13:54,440 --> 03:13:56,360
I watched my local channel every once in a while,

2856
03:13:56,399 --> 03:13:57,079
it's about it.

2857
03:13:57,479 --> 03:13:59,239
Speaker 1: And if I want to hear leftists, I'll turn on

2858
03:13:59,319 --> 03:14:02,719
like Jimmy dor or something like that. Yeah, he's at

2859
03:14:02,799 --> 03:14:06,319
least he's entertaining and funny and what's his name? His

2860
03:14:06,399 --> 03:14:10,360
co host. I think it's Tom Metzger had a shirt

2861
03:14:10,440 --> 03:14:12,639
on the other day l g B t q C.

2862
03:14:12,559 --> 03:14:17,239
Speaker 2: I A so true.

2863
03:14:18,600 --> 03:14:21,360
Speaker 1: I was like, it's well, if you understand uh, you know,

2864
03:14:21,639 --> 03:14:25,479
feminism and where like Andrea's working and all those and

2865
03:14:25,520 --> 03:14:28,639
they were just all c I as that's it's come

2866
03:14:28,760 --> 03:14:29,040
to light.

2867
03:14:29,120 --> 03:14:31,200
Speaker 2: It's it's a recruiting tool now.

2868
03:14:31,840 --> 03:14:32,079
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2869
03:14:32,959 --> 03:14:38,559
Speaker 2: LGBT friendly Yeah, uh yeah, get that, dee I money

2870
03:14:40,479 --> 03:14:42,440
coming come in some trash bags.

2871
03:14:43,799 --> 03:14:50,360
Speaker 1: Let's close this out, man, Well, thank you. I yeah,

2872
03:14:50,440 --> 03:14:52,559
the great. The thing I love the most about this

2873
03:14:52,600 --> 03:14:54,559
one is is just such a learning experience.

2874
03:14:54,959 --> 03:14:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, very enlightening, like lifting the veil. Well, it's turning

2875
03:15:00,079 --> 03:15:02,600
turned everything I thought I knew, and I didn't know much,

2876
03:15:02,680 --> 03:15:06,120
but I thought I was sure on a lot of things,

2877
03:15:06,159 --> 03:15:08,799
and this just kind of, you know, broke my mind.

2878
03:15:09,319 --> 03:15:12,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, even if people don't believe, you know, even people

2879
03:15:12,600 --> 03:15:15,840
don't want to believe it. Oh, Demestra, was you know saying,

2880
03:15:15,959 --> 03:15:20,440
you know, he's lying, he's what would be the opposite

2881
03:15:20,440 --> 03:15:26,600
of exaggerating, he's just understating or what, yeah, understating it.

2882
03:15:26,600 --> 03:15:28,719
Speaker 2: It's just a side apologism.

2883
03:15:29,200 --> 03:15:34,079
Speaker 1: It still makes you think, you know, it's like, okay, well, yeah,

2884
03:15:34,280 --> 03:15:36,200
does it make sense from what we know.

2885
03:15:36,920 --> 03:15:39,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, because the people that are critiqued, the people that

2886
03:15:39,319 --> 03:15:42,760
are going to be critiquing demeister are utilitarian one hundred

2887
03:15:42,760 --> 03:15:44,840
percent of the time, So you can even talk to

2888
03:15:44,879 --> 03:15:50,719
them in utilitarian terms like now three thousand people versus.

2889
03:15:50,239 --> 03:15:54,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you can, you can try to talk to them.

2890
03:15:54,719 --> 03:15:57,680
I don't really want to talk to them anymore. But

2891
03:15:58,239 --> 03:16:02,000
the other commerce time for commerce stations is over. It's

2892
03:16:02,200 --> 03:16:06,239
you know, it's it's so when you encounter somebody on

2893
03:16:06,399 --> 03:16:11,159
like social media, who it's almost like immediate you can

2894
03:16:11,200 --> 03:16:14,200
tell whether that whether it's an honest actor or not.

2895
03:16:14,399 --> 03:16:17,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, if they have the potential it like whether

2896
03:16:17,799 --> 03:16:23,079
it's entertainment or or actually having a good conversation that

2897
03:16:23,200 --> 03:16:28,159
benefits you know, anybody, or if they're you know, the

2898
03:16:29,239 --> 03:16:32,159
I don't like I really don't like the word NPC,

2899
03:16:32,440 --> 03:16:35,040
but it's like the best we have right now.

2900
03:16:35,479 --> 03:16:36,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2901
03:16:36,559 --> 03:16:40,120
Speaker 1: And there are people who are just out there spreading

2902
03:16:40,159 --> 03:16:46,040
lies on purpose. Yeah, and they know not even can

2903
03:16:46,040 --> 03:16:47,319
we get some base lies.

2904
03:16:48,920 --> 03:16:51,479
Speaker 2: I'm all for it, just as long as they serve

2905
03:16:51,639 --> 03:16:52,479
things that I like.

2906
03:16:54,120 --> 03:16:56,040
Speaker 1: All right, do you want to plug anything? I mean

2907
03:16:57,360 --> 03:16:59,840
it even is it even a podcast if car has

2908
03:17:00,079 --> 03:17:01,159
do solo episodes.

2909
03:17:03,159 --> 03:17:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I told them earlier that day. I was

2910
03:17:06,319 --> 03:17:10,200
seventy five percent sure I was gonna make it. Uh yeah.

2911
03:17:10,239 --> 03:17:14,280
You can sometimes find me at uh what's it called

2912
03:17:14,280 --> 03:17:19,559
Timeline Earth. Yeah, that's find me on Twitter at bt

2913
03:17:19,879 --> 03:17:24,200
w A Underscore returns. Bt w A stands for Boystown

2914
03:17:24,280 --> 03:17:28,920
with Aaron. That's my solo show that. Uh yeah, I

2915
03:17:28,920 --> 03:17:29,479
have an idea.

2916
03:17:29,840 --> 03:17:32,280
Speaker 1: I have an idea for an episode.

2917
03:17:32,879 --> 03:17:36,719
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's all I have ideas. Yeah, I've written

2918
03:17:36,760 --> 03:17:38,360
down somewhere I have.

2919
03:17:38,319 --> 03:17:40,440
Speaker 1: An I have an idea for an episode. I'll do

2920
03:17:40,479 --> 03:17:42,440
it with you for your show if you want, all right,

2921
03:17:42,760 --> 03:17:47,319
I think it will be it'll be enjoyable. And some

2922
03:17:47,360 --> 03:17:51,799
people just be like, oh shit, I'm down. It'll be

2923
03:17:51,840 --> 03:17:54,639
a reading of something I already said, of something I

2924
03:17:54,680 --> 03:17:58,879
already sent you. Then I'm gonna let you get kicked

2925
03:17:58,920 --> 03:18:01,200
off of a of all podcasters.

2926
03:18:02,239 --> 03:18:05,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me let me face consequences for once.

2927
03:18:06,360 --> 03:18:09,360
Speaker 1: All right, man, I appreciate it, Thank you, yep, thanks man,