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That's Chumbuck Casino dot com 22 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:58.200 and Live the Chumba Laine. 23 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:01.039 No, We're necessary, I Daly Voidhever Everybody Lost conference being Plus. 24 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.719 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 25 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.840 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.200 written about them Gaesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 27 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.920 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.200 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:34.040 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:42.840 Good Evening. 31 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:47.159 On December ninth, two thousand and one, Kathleen Peterson was 32 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.239 found dead at the bottom of a staircase in her Durham, 33 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:54.359 North Carolina home. Her scalp was laced with deep incisions 34 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:57.719 and her blood was strewn from outside the inside the house. 35 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:01.599 The sinister truth of that night turned her murder into 36 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:07.120 North Carolina's most enigmatic criminal case, capturing media attention across 37 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:11.159 the globe. Police zeroed in on Kathleen's husband, Michael Peterson, 38 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:14.719 and charged him with murder, but was it the truth? 39 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.560 A neighbor, Larry Pollard, came up with an alternative killer. 40 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:22.240 He claimed an owl had attack Kathleen outside her house. 41 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:25.560 He said it sliced her scalp with its fierce talons 42 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:28.759 and caused her to run inside, collapsing at the stairwell 43 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:32.400 and bleeding to death. When the media heard about his theory, 44 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:36.919 Larry was mocked and Michael was convicted. Now twenty years later, 45 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:41.599 author Titty Smith explores Pollard's theory and questions whether law 46 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:46.280 enforcement ignored or even hid evidence to convict Michael Peterson 47 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:49.599 and was an owl in fact the real killer. The 48 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:52.560 book that we're featuring this evening is Death by Talons 49 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:56.560 then an Owl Murder Kathleen Peterson with my special guest, 50 00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:00.759 philosopher and author Titty Smith. Welcome to the program, and 51 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:02.280 thank you very much for this interview. 52 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:04.479 Td Smith, thank you, it's great to be here. 53 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:08.360 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this explosive and 54 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:09.360 extraordinary book. 55 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:09.919 Yeah, I. 56 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:14.560 Appreciate the praise. It was a very nerve wrecking thing 57 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:15.159 to put together. 58 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:18.680 Now, you right early on in the book that you 59 00:03:18.759 --> 00:03:22.599 had seen the original Staircase docuseries somewhere around two thousand 60 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:26.520 and four you had a first impression of the case itself. 61 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:29.879 And then in two thousand and three you talk about 62 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:34.039 two events that would drastically change your thinking about the case. First, 63 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:36.759 two thousand and three, and then in twenty and nineteen. 64 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:40.240 Tell us what these two events were that drastically changed 65 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:43.639 your mind about this case before we get to December ninth, 66 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:45.080 two thousand and one. 67 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.039 Yeah, well, I suppose I'll just recip by going right 68 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:51.840 back to when I first saw the Staircase DOCU series, 69 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:55.639 the original before it made its way onto Neatflips. You know, 70 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:59.240 I saw the family unit, I watched the interviews, and 71 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.479 I I wanted him to be innocent. You know, I 72 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:06.599 wanted Michael Peterson to be innocent of murdering his wife, 73 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:09.919 so emotionally I felt, you know, pulls into the story, 74 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:13.280 and I thought, oh, you know, it could be it 75 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:16.000 could be that she felt, couldn't it. But the more 76 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:17.480 I looked at the evidence in the case, and the 77 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:20.800 more I got through the episodes, I realized, Wow, it's 78 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:24.319 really it's not looking good for Michael here. The evidence 79 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:27.160 is not stacking up well. Most likely, if I put 80 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.319 what I want to decide, I put my emotions to side, No, 81 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.040 he is probably the murderer. But then a few years 82 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:39.639 after Kathleen's death, a neighbor of Michael Peterson Kathleen Peterson, 83 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:42.560 a man called Larry Pollard, began to put forward this 84 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:47.480 owl theory, and according to him, Kathleen's death had resulted 85 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:52.319 from an owl attack which occurred late at night outside 86 00:04:52.439 --> 00:04:55.519 her house. So the idea is that rather than falling 87 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.560 down the steps and patting her head, rather than being 88 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.879 bludgeoned to death stairwell by Michael, in fact, she had 89 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:05.680 first been attacked by an owl, a bird of prey 90 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:09.519 outside her house, and then ran inside with these terrible 91 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.040 cuts on her head, having already been put there before 92 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:15.319 falling in the staircase and bleeding to death after having 93 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:18.879 gone concussed or knocking herself out after falling. Now that 94 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:22.360 theory captured my imaginations, and I'm sure it captured many 95 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:25.360 imaginations around the globe, right. It was a very crazy 96 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:28.040 theory and people were attracted to it, not just because 97 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:32.319 it seemed in some ways to fit the evidence. For example, 98 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:36.800 fits the shape of the wounds on Kathleen's scalp very 99 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.399 very well, and this was something that ornithologists were actually 100 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:42.120 quite happy to accept that, yes, those are wounds that 101 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.120 owl would be capable of inflicting, you know, So that 102 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:48.279 that was the first thing that really captured my attention. 103 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:51.480 Was Larry Pollard putting forward this owl theory, and I, 104 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:55.279 you know, captured my imagination. I started, is the supplause theory. 105 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:57.839 It seems like it could work, you know, I mean 106 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:01.480 either and by this I think I was in two minds. 107 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:06.759 I thought, either Michael killed Kathleen or an owl killed Kathleen. 108 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:11.360 And I was pretty fifty to fifty. Then in twenty nineteen, 109 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:14.519 I was discussing the case with the stranger at a 110 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:16.879 party and I said something along the lines to that, Oh, 111 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:19.279 but the owl there is pretty persuasive too. You know, 112 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:21.160 she got these wounds on her head, she had the 113 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:23.639 feather fragments that were found in her hand. You know 114 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:28.240 what about all that? And this dude just laughed at me. 115 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:32.639 You know, you think, and owl, a bird of prey 116 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:36.600 could attack a woman, scour her head with its talons, 117 00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:39.800 slice it to shreds, and all that would be found 118 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:43.079 in the aftermath are a couple of tiny feather fragments 119 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:45.399 in her hands. You really, have you ever seen a 120 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.240 cat with a bird, he asked me. And I thought 121 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:51.000 about it, and I thought, oh my god, he's right. 122 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:55.439 That's just incredibly obvious. If a bird of prey was 123 00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:58.160 tussling with Kathleen. You know, the idea is that she 124 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:01.879 was supposed supposedly pulling to pray from her head. You know, 125 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:04.399 she's bound to be coveredant feathers, and they're bound to 126 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:07.759 be feathers all around where she was attacked, And according 127 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.519 to all of the official accounts, there was no such thing. 128 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.040 All that were founder a couple of stray for the 129 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:16.399 fragments in her hands to fear the fragments. So at 130 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:19.000 that point I realized, Okay, I'll have to start again, 131 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:21.839 because one of these theories has to has to be 132 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:25.240 right right, or both of them could be wrong. Either 133 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:28.199 Michael did kill his wife, after all all, there are 134 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.600 feathers all over the place where she was attacked. And 135 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.240 that's when I started to look at the evidence a 136 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:34.439 lot more closely in this case and discovered something that 137 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:36.920 in a way I almost wish I hadn't by this 138 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:39.000 point very interesting. 139 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:43.240 Now through this thorough re examination of this case, you 140 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:45.800 have to look at everything. Take us back to December 141 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:50.199 ninth in two thousand and one, and the phone call that, 142 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:54.680 as I said earlier before this interview, that really dooms 143 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:58.560 Michael Peterson. Ellus WA's this phone call. What he says 144 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:02.399 and as you chronicle in this book, the arrival of 145 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:04.040 her own police department. 146 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:07.639 Well, okay, right, So, according to Michael's story, he finds 147 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.160 his wife at the bottom of the stairs, drenched in blood. 148 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:12.879 Not only is her body drenched in blood, not only 149 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:15.480 is her hair drenched in blood. The walls of the 150 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:20.639 stairwell are covered in red stains, splatter stains, smear stains, carbash, 151 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:23.000 an amazing amount of stains. I think when they were 152 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:25.759 finally analyzed, it was found that there were about ten 153 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:29.879 thousand individual blood spots in the stairwell, so a huge 154 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:32.759 amount of blood around her body. He's found her body 155 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:35.799 at the bottom of the stairs, and he calls nine 156 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:38.960 one one and he said his first words to the 157 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:43.159 operator are eighteen ten seed of set. Please, my wife's 158 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.720 had an accident. She's still breathing. And the operator says, 159 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:49.240 what kind of accident, and he says, she's fell down 160 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:52.480 the stairs. She's still breathing. Please come. So his first 161 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:54.919 impression from finding his wife, so as far as we 162 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:57.000 can tell us that he believed she'd fallen down the 163 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:00.519 stairs and whacked her head on the way down. But 164 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:03.480 as soon as police arrived, as soon as the first 165 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:08.600 responders arrived, they find something that is just absolutely incompatible 166 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:11.279 with a fall downstairs. To them, this looks like a 167 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:16.000 brutally violent scene, and so already with their arrival on 168 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:18.679 the scene, we have these two hypotheses set in stone. 169 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:24.240 Either she fell downstairs, as a crying husband claimed, or 170 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:26.399 she was beaten to death by that same husband who 171 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:30.399 was in fact crying crocodile tears. That's I think the 172 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:35.960 very first moment where this case turns sour, because we 173 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:39.600 begin immediately with what we philosophers like to call a 174 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:43.240 false dilemma, as though these are the only two options 175 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:45.639 on the table. It must be one or the other, 176 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:48.879 either she fell or she was murdered. And that was 177 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:52.200 the view that these were the lenses through which this 178 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:56.759 case was viewed ever after, until at least Larry comes 179 00:09:56.799 --> 00:09:59.360 along with his outrageous theory about a bird. Pray. 180 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:04.720 Tell us about the technicians that arrive. What they find again, 181 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:09.039 you say, immediately, Michael seems to be the suspect, and 182 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:12.080 this looks like it can't be a fall. Tell Us 183 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:15.360 about this stairwell, and there's two stairwells in the home, 184 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:17.200 So tell us about this stairwell. 185 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:20.639 Describe it for us. But it's a very narrow, dark, 186 00:10:21.399 --> 00:10:27.159 boxy thing. It's not like a grand sort of mezzanine 187 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:30.480 staircase winding around. This is a dark, narrow I think 188 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:36.279 it's about forty inches across, rather steep, with hard, solid 189 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:39.480 oak steps. When the police arrived on the scene, and 190 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:43.120 when the first forensic investigators arrived on the scene, there 191 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:48.000 were in the stairwell with Kathleen's body numerous objects that 192 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:50.879 didn't seem to belong there. There was a pair of 193 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:54.480 reading glasses on top of the blood. Next to Kathleen's head. 194 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.120 There were a couple of blood soaked paper towels, one 195 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.879 skin right side Kathleen's head, over the blood which was 196 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:05.360 on the bottom steps and under her head. Michael had 197 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:10.879 apparently stuffed at least one, possibly two large cotton towels 198 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.200 that have been sort of bundled up into a pillow 199 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.120 of sorts for her to rest her head on. And 200 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:21.960 this was soaked in blood. Her hair was soaked in blood. Shirt, 201 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:26.320 her sweatshirt, dark gray sweatshirt, was soaked in blood. Her 202 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:30.600 white track pants were soaked until say knee high, or 203 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.159 rather down to the knees, blood running down to the 204 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:39.399 knees and in her hands were clumped over sixty individual 205 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:42.440 hairs from her own head that she had wrenched out. 206 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:47.960 So doesn't sound like fall downstairs, does it now? It 207 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:50.159 doesn't sound like full downstairs, And it didn't look like 208 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:53.519 fall downstairs. It looked like something much much more violent. 209 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:57.399 But there were also other and normal subjects around Kathleen's 210 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:02.000 body that fran Borden was the first to mention the detective. 211 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:04.200 Friend Borden, who was one of the first detectives to 212 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:05.919 arrive on the scene, do you not that it was 213 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:09.440 very strange. She thought that Kathleen's body was surrounded with 214 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:13.960 pine needles, so many pine needles scattered all around her body. 215 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.399 He said, so, again, this is a very strange thing. 216 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:18.759 If she was just falling down the stairs, or indeed, 217 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:20.840 if she was beaten, she beaten to death with the 218 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:23.000 limb of a Christmas tree, maybe it was a very 219 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:25.799 strange thing that friend Bordon noticed. And these weren't the 220 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:28.960 only strange things that I believe the investigators found when 221 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:33.720 they arrived. There were other objects surrounding Kathleen in the stairwell, 222 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:36.399 on the walls that I think we'll get in too shortly. 223 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:41.080 You also talk about blood in other places. When they arrived, 224 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:44.720 police arrived, and technicians arrive. Front door is open. There 225 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:47.759 is also blood involved on the inside of that door. 226 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:50.559 Tell us where they discover blood and some of the 227 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:52.279 patterns that they notice. 228 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:55.720 Yes, so this was, in fact the first thing that 229 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.600 the fire officers noticed when they were on the front 230 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.000 door was wide open. When the parents had arrived, they 231 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:03.720 thought that was strange. When they ran through the front door, 232 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:06.960 they noticed that the frame was smeared with blood stains 233 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:10.679 and what looked like something fingerprinting. Now that's the inside 234 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.480 frame of the door. To this is where we're looking at, say, 235 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:15.840 the latch and the lock, right on the interior face 236 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:18.799 where it actually shuts. So for some reason, blood had 237 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:21.720 been smeared all in the frame of the door. Very 238 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:23.840 strange place for a bunch of blood to be found, 239 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:26.519 right if you've just fell down the stairs, or in fact, 240 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:28.519 if you were beaten to death at the bottom of 241 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:31.879 the sets. Now, the fire captain Gary Paschell takes two 242 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:34.679 steps inside and as he's waiting for the paramedic team 243 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.080 to wrap up, he turns his head and he looks 244 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.080 at the back of the door. Now all over the 245 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:43.240 back of the door are great wipes of red blood. 246 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.879 These are not small smudges. This is not just a 247 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:50.679 little fingerprint or two. These are great wipes of wet 248 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.600 blood that have been deposited there. So immediately, as you 249 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:58.440 can imagine, the police turning up, the fire captain, the paramedics, 250 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.200 they know a fall didn't happen, because you can't fall 251 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:04.600 down the stairs and smear blood all over your front 252 00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:08.039 door in a different room. So it was a very 253 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:11.000 strange situation, and there's no wonder that the police were 254 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.399 extremely skipped called Michael's story to beginner. 255 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:17.159 What was Michael's story in terms of his whereabouts while 256 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:19.919 this was all going on, and what was the time 257 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:22.559 we I don't think we had mentioned what time in 258 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:24.919 the mid morning it was and the early morning it was. 259 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:29.480 That's right. So Michael's first call to nine forty am, 260 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:33.120 he then called again six minutes later to tell the 261 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:36.600 operator that Kathleen had stopped breathing, and his first phone 262 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:38.519 call he had said she was still breathing, so he 263 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.159 ran six. He rang again six minutes later to say 264 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:44.000 that she had stopped breathing. So we're looking at a 265 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:47.840 discovery of the body around about two forty am, so 266 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:52.039 very very much the dark of night. The police investigators 267 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:56.759 arrived not too late afterwards, we're talking about I think 268 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:00.519 it's within two minutes of his second nine to one 269 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:04.080 one call that the paramedics arrived, so about two forty 270 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:08.279 eight am. So again, this was part of the reason 271 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:11.840 that the owl theory came to Larry's mind, and the 272 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:15.000 idea that well the time of night during which Kathleen 273 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:17.360 was found might help support the hypothesis as well. And 274 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.960 he also asked what was Michael's story about his whereabouts? 275 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.200 This is a problem for anybody who wants to defend 276 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.000 Michael's innocent It's a big problem. It's not a small problem. 277 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.279 It's a really big book. According to multiple paramedics who 278 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:35.320 were at the scene that early morning, they asked Michael directly, 279 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.000 when did the falls happen, and he said, I don't know. 280 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.039 I was just going downstairs to turn off the lights. 281 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.080 I came back in and found her. Now, for anyone 282 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:47.399 who's familiar with the staircase story and the documentaries and 283 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:49.080 all that, you might be very surprised to hear that, 284 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:53.399 because everybody knows that his story goes he was outside 285 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.720 the pool, outside beside the pool all night, smoking his pipe, 286 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:00.440 having a few drinks, maybe having a doze, maybe he 287 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.600 was snapping. You can't really remember. It was late, you know, 288 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.840 he was tired out by the pool all night at something. 289 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:09.519 I don't know what ten degrees celsius is and fahrenheit 290 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:11.080 right now, it's skipped my mind. But it was not 291 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:14.320 very warm that much. It was relatively cool. So for 292 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:16.879 most people, I think if you're familiar with the Staircasse story, 293 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:19.320 you might not know that his first words the paramedics 294 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:21.960 were in fact, I was going outside to turn off 295 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:24.120 the lights. I came back and and found it. It's 296 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:26.440 only in all of his subsequent stories in the media 297 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:31.639 and its lawyers and documentaries and so on, that he says, no, no, no, 298 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:35.200 I wasn't inside the house. I was out by the 299 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.600 pool all night, really far away from Kathleen. So of 300 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:42.360 course I couldn't care her fall. So it's a big story. Sorry, 301 00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:44.960 it's a big problem for Michael, and it's one that 302 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:47.919 you know, I come at from a position of what 303 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:50.279 I hoped, you know, the reader would know of it. 304 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:52.799 This is kind of honesty about it, right. This book 305 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:57.639 is not designed to exonerate my it's not about Michael. 306 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:00.720 This book is about the forensic evidence this case and 307 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:04.000 what it bet supports that doesn't actually have a lot 308 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:06.319 to do with whether Michael knew about it, whether he 309 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:08.960 was in the house, outside house anything. It's not a 310 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:11.799 book about Michael and his innocent as not supposed to be. 311 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:16.279 You write about the crime scene photographer and the crime 312 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:20.200 scene videographer that gathered evidence for this trial. 313 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.799 Tell us just a little bit about the work that. 314 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.960 They do, and then you fast forward to nearly two 315 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:30.839 years after Kathleen's death, October tenth, two thousand and three, 316 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:31.559 the trial. 317 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:35.640 Okay, so early in the morning of Sember ninth, the 318 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:39.799 lead forensic investigator, man called Dan George, finally was given 319 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:41.839 a search warrant and so he was able to go 320 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:46.400 about the house making the crime scene video. Behind him 321 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:51.400 was young sort of apprentice photographer who was taking photos 322 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:54.240 as George went on with the video. Now, it's very 323 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:59.440 difficult to express in words how poor quality the video 324 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.200 that was given to the jury is, and all I 325 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:05.839 can suggest for any interested listeners that they go to 326 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:11.200 court TV, find Dan George's testimony and watch the crime 327 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:14.359 scene video for themselves to see how truly terrible. The 328 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:17.400 quality is as though it's been filmed by a potato. 329 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:22.599 George also seems to make some very fundamental errors in 330 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.759 crime scene videography. When you make a crime scene video, 331 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.319 you're not really supposed to make any scene cuts. Supposed 332 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:34.119 to be one continuous stream. There's a pretty reasonable justification 333 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:36.839 for that, right you don't want the defense coming in 334 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:38.839 at a later date and saying, well, what did you 335 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:43.200 meet it out? Yes, absolutely, so it's rather shocking to 336 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:47.759 note that Dan George's crime scene video has twice as 337 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:51.519 many scene cuts as it does minutes of footage. In 338 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:55.200 other words, there's approximately one scene cut every thirty seconds. 339 00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:59.000 Some of these scene cuts are indeed just cuts between 340 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:04.880 different rooms, but other cuts totally anomalous. They are cuts 341 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.759 that occur in the middle of the same shot. So, 342 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:10.559 in other words, we might have a close up of 343 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:14.839 a doorknob, and then there's a cut, and when the 344 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.599 film returns, it's still a close up of the doorknob. 345 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:20.880 So something's been cut apparently from that middle portion, and 346 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.279 we don't know why. Either that or we're really just 347 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:27.720 dealing with some pretty lous and police video skills. Now 348 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:30.839 that's just the crime scene video. Now, another problem to 349 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:33.079 know about crime scene video is it doesn't actually film 350 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:36.079 that much of the house at all, or the outside 351 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:36.960 of the house at all. 352 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.680 We get in the crime scene video around about five 353 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:46.039 rooms out of the fourteen rooms in Peterson House, and 354 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:49.400 some of these rooms were noted to be very suspicious 355 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:50.359 in harboring. 356 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:52.400 What the police considered the evidence at a later day. 357 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:55.559 So for example, the laundry room, where they argued Michael 358 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:59.319 had gone to take up cleaning supplies to clean up 359 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:02.440 the scene room Kathleen, which he did terrible and badly. 360 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:05.319 This was supposed to go on the laundry They believed 361 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:08.160 this for a long time. And yet the laundry wasn't filmed. 362 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.319 The outdoor pool wasn't filmed, the basement wasn't filmed. There 363 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:14.519 are all sorts of areas in the house that you know, 364 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.960 the dining room wasn't filmed with it tap dinner that night. 365 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.240 There arell sorts of areas of the house that you wonder, now, 366 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:22.079 why did that go on film? And most important level, 367 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:26.559 a couple of the detectives throughout the investigation have claimed 368 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.799 that they saw blood drops in the kitchen. The blood 369 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:34.680 drops were never filmed. The blood drops were never photographed, 370 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:38.599 and the blood drops were never given a presumptive friends 371 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.880 a test. So all that we have is the testimony 372 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:44.039 of the investigations, and all they say is they saw 373 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:46.359 something that looked like a blood drop in the kitchen, 374 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:48.480 or a couple of blood drops in the kitchen. So 375 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:50.920 that's this is a big problem with the crime scene video. 376 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:56.160 The crime scene photos appaul. They're over exposed to they're smudging, 377 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:01.039 they're blurry, they're often almost entirely colorless. They come with 378 00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:04.000 a strong cpo toned th effects almost everything, so we 379 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.480 can't tell the difference between green or red or yellow blue. 380 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:12.240 And once again, photos that are supposedly meant to represent 381 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:16.359 particular objects like blood spots or items of interest and 382 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:21.000 bits of murder weapon are so rather of such poor 383 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:24.599 quality you can't make out what they're supposed to represent. 384 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:27.200 There's one photo in particular that I want to talk about. 385 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:31.000 There's a photograph of a pot in the kitchen sink. 386 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:35.759 Angie Powell was the apprentice photographer under Dan George who 387 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:39.160 took the photo in question. Now on the stand, one 388 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.160 of the detectives who was there that night, or one 389 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:43.880 of the agents rather said, well, there was something in 390 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:46.079 the pot. We couldn't I couldn't make out what it was. 391 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:50.519 It was dark red, tannish brown, something, but I couldn't 392 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:52.799 make out what item was in this in the pot, 393 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:55.359 in the sink in the kitchen. Well, luckily I got 394 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:57.680 to interview the person who took the photo in question. 395 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:00.799 I got to interview the agent, Angie Hell, who took 396 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:02.599 that very photo. And I said, well, you took the photo. 397 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.359 What was in the sink, in the pot, in the 398 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:08.720 in the pot and the sink in the kitchen And 399 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:11.400 she said, oh, I don't. I don't really remember. It 400 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:15.000 might have been cork or little bits of cork. So 401 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.920