1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,640 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 14 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,679 Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by author, a podcaster 15 00:00:52,799 --> 00:00:55,960 and journalist Richard Foster to talk to us about his 16 00:00:56,079 --> 00:00:59,359 book Southern Nightmare, The Hunt for the South Side Strangler, 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,679 which is our book club selection for July. Richard, thank 18 00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:05,079 you so much for joining us today. 19 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 5: Thank you glad to be here. Richard. 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: We were talking about this off air. We've been talking 21 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,599 about having you on mind over murder for three years, 22 00:01:13,719 --> 00:01:17,040 and it's our failing that we haven't had you on 23 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:17,920 until now. 24 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,359 Speaker 5: No, not at all, we were saying, I've been fairly 25 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,680 busy for the last several years, so it's not a problem. 26 00:01:24,719 --> 00:01:25,760 I'm looking forward to it. 27 00:01:26,359 --> 00:01:30,159 Speaker 4: Start by telling us a little bit about your professional background. 28 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 5: I have been in journalism and communications for a little 29 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,599 over thirty years. I started working as i'm working journalist 30 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,519 when I was still in college at Virginia Commonwealth University, 31 00:01:41,799 --> 00:01:45,120 writing for the Richmond Times Dispatch. I was a reporter 32 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,000 on their state desk and business desk when I was 33 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,480 still in college. Over the years, I've worked for several 34 00:01:51,599 --> 00:01:55,359 daily papers. I've been an editor for a news site, 35 00:01:55,519 --> 00:01:59,959 city magazine, and I'm currently editor of Virginia Business Magazine, 36 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,480 which is monthly glossy and over the years has done 37 00:02:03,519 --> 00:02:05,920 a little bit of everything. I've written a couple of books. 38 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:11,240 I've done a lot of investigative writing, profiles, government reporting, 39 00:02:11,599 --> 00:02:13,280 entertainment writing, a little bit of everything. 40 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 2: Now, are you one of those people, Richard, that knew 41 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,919 what you wanted to do ever since you were a kid? 42 00:02:19,599 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 5: Yes and no. I think I had an epiphany when 43 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,800 I was about nineteen or so where I realized that 44 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,560 I did know and hadn't been paying attention to it. 45 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,840 I was one of those guys that was in garage 46 00:02:30,879 --> 00:02:32,759 bands and stuff and was thinking I was going to 47 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:34,879 be in rock and roll and whatnot. But then when 48 00:02:34,879 --> 00:02:39,080 I started getting into taking college a little more seriously 49 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,439 in my late teens, I started thinking. And I got 50 00:02:42,439 --> 00:02:45,280 into my first journalism class and loved it. I started thinking, 51 00:02:45,319 --> 00:02:47,360 I've been doing this all along, now that I think 52 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,599 about it. Yeah, I was in a newspaper when I 53 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,759 was in middle school, and I've done some writing like 54 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,719 this for different things. And a light bulb went off 55 00:02:54,759 --> 00:02:56,879 that yeah, I've been writing my whole life in one 56 00:02:56,879 --> 00:02:58,800 form or another, and I like this. 57 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,759 Speaker 4: Yeah, Southern Nightmare is not your only book. Tell us 58 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:04,599 about your book about Betty Page. 59 00:03:04,879 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, so thatlan is an interesting story. It has done 60 00:03:09,479 --> 00:03:13,560 very well. It came out in nineteen ninety eight and 61 00:03:14,199 --> 00:03:18,280 was adapted into a film by HBO, which actually got 62 00:03:18,319 --> 00:03:22,039 released in theaters called The Notorious Betty Page. Some people 63 00:03:22,039 --> 00:03:23,960 may have seen that movie. I've got a credit all 64 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,719 the way at the very end of the movie. I 65 00:03:25,719 --> 00:03:28,599 think it's solely because they remembered the very last minute, 66 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:33,520 they contractually had to put that. I've collected comic books 67 00:03:33,719 --> 00:03:37,639 as a kid, was really loved art, had gone to 68 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:40,319 a lot of different comic book stores and had started 69 00:03:40,439 --> 00:03:44,400 in the early nineties seeing these fanzines about Betty Page. 70 00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:46,960 And I didn't know who Betty Page was. Of course 71 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,599 I knew the rocketeer those comics, Dave Stevens, and I 72 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,919 didn't realize, oh, hey, that's who that's where he got 73 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:57,120 his heroin for his comic from. And yeah, read a 74 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,199 little bit and found out that there was this mystery 75 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,439 that she had just I started thinking, I'm gonna do 76 00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:05,520 a little piece about the fan following, local fan following, 77 00:04:05,639 --> 00:04:08,000 and then I dug in and I ended up finding 78 00:04:08,039 --> 00:04:11,159 out she has a brother in Nashville and she's still alive, 79 00:04:11,439 --> 00:04:14,680 and ended up getting the first interview with her. Went 80 00:04:14,719 --> 00:04:16,959 from there, I ended up writing a biography of her. 81 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: Did you end up meeting with miss Page face to face? 82 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,759 Speaker 5: Never did? Yeah, she sent me one letter. It was 83 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:30,959 this sixth page, very nicely online stationery. Every line is 84 00:04:31,399 --> 00:04:35,439 sharp and steady and perfect penmanship of this former English 85 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,360 teacher she had been at one point in her life. 86 00:04:37,399 --> 00:04:40,519 But no, I never did and I have friends who 87 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,000 did and people I know who did. But she was 88 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,399 not happy with my reporting some of the details of 89 00:04:48,439 --> 00:04:50,720 her life, and I'll be as upfront about that as 90 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,120 I can be. It turned out that this became a 91 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,600 true crime book because she had alluded to that she 92 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,560 had some troubles during her time and didn't want to 93 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,800 talk about. And as I dug and started talking to people, 94 00:05:02,879 --> 00:05:06,040 I found out she had some severe mental health crises, 95 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,160 and it actually stabbed some people and nearly stabbed a 96 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,600 roommate to death. In fact, it led to California changing 97 00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:19,399 some laws around matching roommates for elderly people. And I 98 00:05:19,439 --> 00:05:22,079 was still debating on whether or not to write that 99 00:05:22,199 --> 00:05:27,160 story when I interviewed the survivor of one of her 100 00:05:27,199 --> 00:05:31,079 attacks and you could still hear her name was Leoni Hadad, 101 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,000 and I get chills thinking of you could still hear 102 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,639 how scared she was, and I would have talked to 103 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,040 her probably thirteen fourteen years after that attack, maybe more, 104 00:05:41,079 --> 00:05:45,959 I can't quite remember, and she still obviously was still traumatized. 105 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,920 And I think that's when I realized there are victims involved, 106 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,959 and that this is a bigger story and it's not 107 00:05:52,079 --> 00:05:55,040 just her story, and I decided to tell the full story. 108 00:05:55,319 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 2: So she was a lot more than just a fifties 109 00:05:58,079 --> 00:05:59,639 pin up and burlesque came. 110 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,439 Speaker 5: She was iconic. She still has inspired tons of fashion 111 00:06:04,639 --> 00:06:08,399 photographers and designers and all kinds of You'll see her 112 00:06:08,439 --> 00:06:11,839 influence and image everywhere once you see it. But yeah, 113 00:06:11,879 --> 00:06:14,319 it was a more difficult story. They are more human 114 00:06:14,399 --> 00:06:19,120 story and fascinating story. But unfortunately, not everyone wants that story. 115 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,920 I think a lot of people just want to sanitize safe, 116 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,160 cute pin up model story. And I think if you 117 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,120 want that's there. There's other versions of that out there 118 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:31,839 without all the other details. But yeah, there's more to it, 119 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:32,399 for sure. 120 00:06:32,879 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 4: Speaking of incredibly complex stories, let's go ahead and talk 121 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,920 a little bit about Southern Nightmare. The tagline for the 122 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,519 book is the Hunt for the South Side Strangler. For 123 00:06:42,639 --> 00:06:46,360 anybody who's unfamiliar, can you give just a brief summary 124 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,319 of the south Side Strangler case please. 125 00:06:48,879 --> 00:06:52,519 Speaker 5: The bulk of the case takes place about thirty five 126 00:06:52,639 --> 00:06:56,560 years ago, when I was the kind of summer and 127 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,959 fall of when I was about sixteen years old. Eight 128 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:06,319 from September through November, four women were killed in Richmond 129 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,040 and in the Northern Virginia. They were killed in their 130 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:15,000 homes brutally. It was bondage. Murders were really horrible and 131 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:17,839 it set the whole I remember being a teenager. The 132 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,560 entire city was terrified. The story ended up being a 133 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,360 bigger story than that because there actually had been another 134 00:07:24,439 --> 00:07:28,439 murder that predated those back in eighty four, and there 135 00:07:28,439 --> 00:07:30,839 were a string of other attacks that were linked to 136 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:34,800 these murders later. The amazing thing about this case is 137 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,600 it was not only the first case in American history 138 00:07:39,639 --> 00:07:42,279 where DNA solved a murder, but the first case where 139 00:07:42,319 --> 00:07:45,399 DNA solved a serial killing. It was both. It was 140 00:07:45,639 --> 00:07:49,879 just astounding. It's a historic case. It's taught at criminal 141 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,360 justice universities and classes. It deserves to be a lot 142 00:07:53,399 --> 00:07:53,879 better known. 143 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,199 Speaker 4: And that really is something that was a theme with 144 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,959 all of our comments on our Facebook page. A lot 145 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,040 of people said, why don't I know about this case? 146 00:08:04,399 --> 00:08:08,040 This is so historic and so interesting. Why do you 147 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,879 think the South Side strangler murders have not received their 148 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,399 proper place in the history of true crime injustice in 149 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:16,040 this country. 150 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,279 Speaker 5: I can't say entirely for sure why that is. It's 151 00:08:20,399 --> 00:08:23,160 not the first case in the world there was one 152 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,279 other case that predated it, Colin Pitchfork in England, which 153 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,240 that name you couldn't pick a better name for a 154 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,360 serial killer. And that guy is actually out on parole 155 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,360 right now. For those of us who follow the UK papers, 156 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,159 he has been paroled, which is a little mind blowing. 157 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,519 I'm not sure I have a great answer why the 158 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,919 case has been forgotten. I think there was one book 159 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,559 written about it back in the nineties that was very 160 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,679 a little didactic, that was really heavy into the DNA 161 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,440 and the science that maybe just didn't catch the audience 162 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,480 that should have. Perhaps and somehow this also, I think 163 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,399 the case was solved, which sometimes the unsolved cases tend 164 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,480 to be the ones that get a little more attention. 165 00:09:05,039 --> 00:09:07,039 I don't know, I really don't know, but it's one 166 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,759 that definitely deserves to be known more and I hope 167 00:09:09,799 --> 00:09:11,799 I've done my part in trying to get it out there. 168 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,919 Speaker 2: We As Kristen says, there were a lot of questions 169 00:09:14,919 --> 00:09:18,799 and discussion on our social media pages about this. Why 170 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,159 don't I know about this case? Why haven't I heard 171 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,200 about this case? And the fact that it was so 172 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,840 innovative from a forensic perspective. I think the factors you've 173 00:09:28,879 --> 00:09:32,679 cited are certainly part of it. I also wonder if 174 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,840 this had happened in a larger city, if that might 175 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,440 have made a difference, if Richmond was just a little 176 00:09:39,519 --> 00:09:42,639 too small, Not that I consider Richmond a small town. 177 00:09:42,799 --> 00:09:43,360 Far from it. 178 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, it got national coverage. It didn't get national coverage 179 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,600 when the arrest was made. I know I've seen clips 180 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,080 and some time magazine from others. I know that it 181 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,879 got some national coverage during the trials. Certainly we can 182 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,120 talk a little bit later. But Patricia Cornwell, the famous 183 00:09:59,159 --> 00:10:03,919 bestselling crime novelist. Her first book was a very loosely adapted, 184 00:10:04,519 --> 00:10:08,639 fictionalized version of these murders that inspired her on a career. 185 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,840 I'm not exactly sure why these got lost to memory, 186 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,559 and they it's a case that deserves to be known. 187 00:10:15,159 --> 00:10:17,399 Speaker 4: What is it that sparked your interest in the case. 188 00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:20,000 Is it just because you remembered it and you lived 189 00:10:20,039 --> 00:10:22,080 through it. Has it always stayed with you? Or is 190 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:23,639 there something more to it than that. 191 00:10:24,159 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 5: There were a few factors at the time. In twenty seventeen, 192 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,440 I had a friend who was an editor at Style 193 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,240 weekly magazine here in Richmond, which is an Alternative Weekly, 194 00:10:36,399 --> 00:10:40,080 and I was a reporter there back in the mid nineties. 195 00:10:40,639 --> 00:10:43,480 They were looking to do something. They weren't sure what 196 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,120 they wanted to do, but they wanted to do some 197 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,039 kind of series, something true crime. They weren't sure what 198 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,080 the story was. We all went away and did a 199 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,759 little brainstorming, and within a couple of days it became 200 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,279 really obvious what the story was because we all came 201 00:10:58,399 --> 00:11:01,120 upon an independently, we need to do the South Side 202 00:11:01,159 --> 00:11:04,240 strangler story. Because one of the victims had been an 203 00:11:04,279 --> 00:11:07,200 employee at Style. I did not work with her because 204 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,080 she would have been killed about ten years before I 205 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,480 worked there, but she was friends of mine, people that 206 00:11:14,519 --> 00:11:17,480 I still am in touch with today. So I think 207 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,080 there was that little feeling of there was one of 208 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,759 our own who needed to be remembered. But I think 209 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:27,759 also it quickly became we realized, Okay, the thirtieth anniversary 210 00:11:27,759 --> 00:11:30,440 of this case is coming up. In fact, the more 211 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,559 we dug into it, we realized it was the thirtieth 212 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,759 anniversary of the trials were coming up. We're already in 213 00:11:34,759 --> 00:11:37,679 the middle of the thirtieth anniversary of the killings. That 214 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,360 whole fall during the thirtieth anniversary of the killings. I 215 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,320 was talking to a lot of people who were connected 216 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:50,320 with it, survivors, homicide detectives, FBI agents, family members, going 217 00:11:50,639 --> 00:11:53,279 to some of the places where the murders had taken place. 218 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,320 I really spent a lot of that Fall of twenty 219 00:11:56,399 --> 00:11:59,559 seventeen and Winner of twenty eighteen doing a lot of 220 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,559 research and a lot of interviews. 221 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,919 Speaker 4: Talk to us a little bit about that research process. 222 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,080 How do you go about getting all your information for 223 00:12:08,159 --> 00:12:10,799 a book like this? Is it just interviews or do 224 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,360 you have to dig into the microfiche or turn to Google? 225 00:12:14,399 --> 00:12:16,120 What do you do when you're ready to sit down 226 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:17,399 and work on a project. 227 00:12:17,799 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 5: This one, I will say, was a lot easier than 228 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,000 doing the Betty Page book, which I had written in 229 00:12:25,039 --> 00:12:27,399 the early to mid nineties, because that one I had 230 00:12:27,399 --> 00:12:29,679 to go to the Library of Congress to get access 231 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,840 to some newspapers that were only available on microfish and 232 00:12:32,879 --> 00:12:35,840 were not at my local library. There was no Internet 233 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:38,440 when I did that, and you had to use these 234 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,039 reverse phone directories to look up where people had lived 235 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,720 and where they went, and what their names and numbers were, 236 00:12:44,759 --> 00:12:47,320 look up all census records. It was a great exercise 237 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,080 back then I learned a lot in tracking people and 238 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,320 figuring things out with the Internet. With the resources we 239 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,879 have today, it makes things a lot easier. I did 240 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,879 have to go to the Library of Virginia in person 241 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:05,120 to track down some old contemporaneous tapes from WRVA radio 242 00:13:05,399 --> 00:13:08,559 their reportings of the murders and the trials. So I 243 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,159 was able to find some of that, but a lot 244 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,360 of it. I was able to find some archives online, 245 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,440 like from our local paper of record, the Richmond Times 246 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,799 Dispatch and it's afternoon paper which is no longer with us, 247 00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:23,600 the Newsleader, and they, of course had done a ton 248 00:13:23,639 --> 00:13:26,840 of reporting back then. Dile Weekly of course had done 249 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,240 some too, and I had some of their materials. And 250 00:13:30,399 --> 00:13:34,279 another thing I really lucked out on one of my 251 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:39,360 predecessors at Style, another reporter, Lisa Bacon. She had covered 252 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,679 the trial unknown to me. She's come over by my house. 253 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,240 I've got some stuff you might want to look at. 254 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,919 Oh wow, okay, So I go over and sit down 255 00:13:47,919 --> 00:13:53,840 with Lisa. She has the entire trial transcript and which 256 00:13:53,879 --> 00:13:55,639 not even the courthouses had anymore. 257 00:13:55,879 --> 00:13:56,639 Speaker 2: Phenomenal. 258 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 5: She had all of this. She had all of this 259 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,399 stuff and had hung on to it that was probably 260 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,519 that was a tremendous resource because it listed names, it 261 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,120 listed witnesses, it listed direct testimony. It was fantastic. 262 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: Was she excited about the fact that you were working 263 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:16,759 on a new project. 264 00:14:17,159 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, Lisa's We've worked in so many places. 265 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,840 She was also a reporter at Virginia Business where I 266 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,799 am now. She was a reporter at Style. Yeah, Lisa, 267 00:14:27,919 --> 00:14:29,840 I think it has always been a big It's always 268 00:14:29,879 --> 00:14:31,960 been in my court. She was really happy to help 269 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,639 and it was great getting to hear because she had 270 00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:36,399 covered the court case, so I got her insights and 271 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,200 that first hand perspective of what it was like and 272 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,039 what she remembered. And of course you'll see in the 273 00:14:41,039 --> 00:14:44,039 book her recollections because I interviewed her for this and 274 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,679 she stepped in the Style. I think she went to 275 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,440 work for Style like two weeks after the murder took place, 276 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:53,679 and she talked about she came into this place two 277 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,759 weeks after Debbie Davis, who was the person at Style 278 00:14:56,759 --> 00:14:59,240 who had been murdered. Yea, and she said it was 279 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,720 just like walking in someplace that had a bomb thrown 280 00:15:01,759 --> 00:15:04,240 and everybody was just walking around like zombies. And of 281 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,159 course they would be again murder Caser. There's gonna be 282 00:15:07,159 --> 00:15:09,879 a lot of downer moments, but it was a great 283 00:15:09,919 --> 00:15:13,120 exercise and I met some really fascinating people. I met 284 00:15:13,159 --> 00:15:16,120 an FBI agent who had also worked on the Atlanta 285 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,799 child murders and had some really interesting thoughts and perspective 286 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:21,799 on that that, you know, I just got to hear. 287 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,240 And of course the two detectives, the two homicide detectives, 288 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,240 one from Arlington, one from Richmond. Joe Horgas from up 289 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,879 at Arlington, and Ray Williams, who is no longer with us. 290 00:15:34,159 --> 00:15:37,279 Ray was the detective primary detective Richmond, and both of 291 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:40,120 them were very were retired, and both were very generous 292 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:40,639 with their time. 293 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: These tapes that you found yourself going through, Richard, where 294 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,279 were they stored in? What format? Were you listening to. 295 00:15:49,879 --> 00:15:55,159 Speaker 5: The WRVA tapes? Yes, they were on cassette. Somehow they 296 00:15:55,159 --> 00:15:59,639 were digitized as well. I can't quite remember. Somehow I 297 00:15:59,639 --> 00:16:02,879 got a digitized version of them. Sorry, this is going 298 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,120 to be where No it's not five years later, and 299 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,679 lots of stuff that's happened since it's hard to remember 300 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:09,759 all the details. But yeah, I know I worked with 301 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,679 the librarians there the research librarians the Library of Virginia 302 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,679 who were stellar and yeah, they helped me find a 303 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,600 lot of this and they have excellent archives there. 304 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, shout out to the Library of Virginia because they 305 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,360 are amazing. If there's anybody like in our local listening 306 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:28,360 area who's never had a chance to go to the 307 00:16:28,399 --> 00:16:30,159 Library of Virginia, do it. 308 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 5: It is so cool, such a great resource for us 309 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:33,720 to have. 310 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 2: Now help me out as a person that doesn't live 311 00:16:36,519 --> 00:16:40,200 in Virginia. Who runs the Library of Virginia. Is this 312 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,360 a state facility. 313 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:44,639 Speaker 5: Or state Yes, that's a state one. 314 00:16:44,879 --> 00:16:47,759 Speaker 4: But it's wonderful because they bring in lots of guest speakers. 315 00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:50,159 Our friend Kate Miles was speaking at the Library of 316 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,879 Virginia a couple months back about her book Trailed, and 317 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,559 they're really great about making sure that it's open and 318 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,200 accessible to everybody through guest speakers and. 319 00:16:58,159 --> 00:17:00,519 Speaker 5: Everything's very cool. Yeah. Beth may See, one of my 320 00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:03,759 former coworkers at Rona Times who wrote Dope Sick. I 321 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,559 think she's been there and not too recent past. 322 00:17:06,759 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, let's get into the Patricia Cornwell of it all, 323 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,400 because you did mention her before. Sure, so she did 324 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,200 use the Southside Strangler case as a model for her 325 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,119 first book, Post Mortem, much in the same way that 326 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,799 she would later use to Colonial Parkway murders as a 327 00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:24,640 model for All that Remains. Have you read Post Mortem? 328 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:28,400 And if so, can you assess how accurately she depicted 329 00:17:28,559 --> 00:17:29,799 the south Side stranglings. 330 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:31,599 Speaker 5: I'm just gonna be upfront and say no, I have 331 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,000 not read it. I flipped through it selectively to look 332 00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:38,960 for certain information. Patricia Cornwell she lived here in Richmond 333 00:17:39,039 --> 00:17:41,960 for a long time. A lot of people my parents' 334 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,319 generation were huge fans of her, and a lot of 335 00:17:45,319 --> 00:17:48,599 people I knew, older journalists knew her. They all called 336 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,319 her Patsy. I have never met her. I flipped selectively 337 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,640 through post Mortem to get a little taste of what 338 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,000 where it was going. She had a tremendous front row 339 00:17:59,079 --> 00:18:02,759 seat because she was working in the State Medical Examiner's 340 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,400 office at that time. A lot of people don't know that. 341 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,720 They probably do around here, they know it not so 342 00:18:09,799 --> 00:18:14,759 much maybe elsewhere. But she based her case Scarpetta character 343 00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:18,599 on doctor Fierro, our state medical examer, a former state 344 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,200 medical examiner who I interviewed for the book and who 345 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,039 worked on this case or the entire Southside strangler case. 346 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,160 And yeah, Patricia Cornwell, she had a front row seat 347 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,960 working there in the Medical Examiner's office, and of course 348 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,359 she had been a local newspaper reporter before that. I 349 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,519 think had a good eye for detail and was inspired 350 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:41,599 to write this case. I think it is probably very 351 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,160 fictionalized what I saw of it. Well, I think there 352 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,759 may be a few details. I don't think it's way 353 00:18:47,839 --> 00:18:50,279 you know, she's got a lot of stuff about oder 354 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,599 and the killer being this diabolical mastermind who's out menacing 355 00:18:55,799 --> 00:18:59,000 the medical examiner, and none of that is truly I 356 00:18:59,039 --> 00:19:03,119 think it's sufficiently fictionalized beyond just some very basics that 357 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,079 it's a bondage murder, the bondage murders and things. 358 00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 2: And doctor Fierro also worked on the Colonial Parkway murders, 359 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,680 and I've spoken to her as well some years back now, 360 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,799 and she was a wonderful person and incredibly helpful. Boy, 361 00:19:17,839 --> 00:19:20,559 could you learn a lot talking to an expert like. 362 00:19:20,519 --> 00:19:23,559 Speaker 5: That, And she is amazing. I did a profile on 363 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,559 her years ago for Richard Magazine when she was still 364 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,079 state Medical Examiner. It was frustrating because she won't let 365 00:19:30,079 --> 00:19:32,880 you see her work, not allowed him because she this 366 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,279 is not entertainment. She was the best advocate for quote 367 00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:40,359 unquote her patients. She did not see them as bodies 368 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,839 or objects. She saw them as people. That murder victim 369 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,920 was somebody's mother. She treated them like a patient, and 370 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,880 she God bless her. She was an amazing expert forensic 371 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,480 pathologist that we were very lucky to have in this state, 372 00:19:55,839 --> 00:19:57,920 and an amazing woman. 373 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 6: Just fascinating opinions Villa and I about Patricia Cronwell's work, 374 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:09,640 because she very obviously based all that remains on the 375 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,240 Colonial Parkway murders, and that is something that we don't 376 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,799 feel should be used as entertainment. 377 00:20:14,319 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 4: So I'm just curious. Do you have an opinion about 378 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,640 using real crime as a basis for fictional work. 379 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, look, I'm going to come at this from saying 380 00:20:24,079 --> 00:20:28,559 I don't. Obviously I can understand where Bill's coming from completely. 381 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,359 I very much respect where Bill is. As a family 382 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,920 member of a murder victim, having also had someone close 383 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,759 to me murdered that were fictionalized, I don't know how 384 00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:41,839 I would feel that said, I think, just looking at 385 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,599 it from a literary basis, and also as a writer myself, 386 00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:50,319 I think you can't help. But lots and lots of writers, 387 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,039 almost going back to the dawn of detective fiction, have 388 00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:56,480 used true cases as an inspiration to write from. I 389 00:20:56,519 --> 00:21:01,359 think there's a million pastiches of Sherlock Holmes modern interpretations. 390 00:21:01,519 --> 00:21:04,440 Holmes meets Jack the Ripper and tracks them down. And 391 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,960 I'm pretty sure Arthur Conan Doyle took some inspiration for 392 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,400 some of his Holmes cases from some real things too. Yeah, 393 00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:15,960 I think I guess the question is it sufficiently fictionalized? 394 00:21:16,319 --> 00:21:20,960 Is there sufficient distance? Are you doing harm? I think 395 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,079 those are all questions that probably should be asked. I 396 00:21:24,079 --> 00:21:28,960 think Patricia Cornwell was writing almost contemporaneously. Her book about 397 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,079 Southside strangling killings came out what a year or two 398 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,079 after the killings. It was very and I think the 399 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,640 same thing with the Parkway. I don't think there was 400 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:39,400 a lot of distance. 401 00:21:39,519 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 2: It's about three years. And here's one area where I'll 402 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,480 push back, solved versus unsolved. There's a lot of myths 403 00:21:47,519 --> 00:21:50,920 now that have gotten mixed in with the Colonial Parkway murders, 404 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,160 and many of them started with Patricia Cornwall and all 405 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,599 that remains in terms of creating confusion kind of urban 406 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,519 myths that have become part of this case. When you 407 00:22:02,559 --> 00:22:05,599 start drilling down, you realize, oh, this is in the book, 408 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,359 and people read the book and they think that's an 409 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,839 accurate telling of the Colonial Parkway murders story, which obviously 410 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,079 it's not. And then we can let this topic go 411 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,680 because I don't want to turn this into a rant. 412 00:22:17,799 --> 00:22:21,160 There is a tremendous amount of detail in all that 413 00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:28,559 remains that is lifted directly from excruciating detail that only 414 00:22:28,599 --> 00:22:31,920 someone would access, would be able to write with this 415 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,599 level of specificity, particularly about issues and details that didn't 416 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,599 even come out until later. They may have come out 417 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,680 in the years since because I've been outspoken, Kristen and 418 00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:46,000 other family members have been outspoken in our interviews as 419 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,039 we continue to pressure the FBI and the Virginia State Police, 420 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,279 and so more detail has come out about those murders 421 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:55,039 in the thirty plus years since. I think there's a 422 00:22:55,039 --> 00:22:57,559 big difference in if you're writing a story that's about 423 00:22:57,599 --> 00:23:00,440 a case that's solved or a case that is hundreds 424 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,640 of years ago, like Jack the Ripper. 425 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,759 Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, and I agree, yeah, And again I think 426 00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:08,119 it comes down to that, are you doing harm? Are 427 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,799 you putting information out there that could harm a case. 428 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,759 I can't speak because I've never written fiction, so I 429 00:23:13,759 --> 00:23:15,599 can't speak from that side of the fence. But I 430 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,400 can say having been a journalist, I have been privy 431 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,839 sometimes to things that I've known that the general public 432 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,039 doesn't know about murders or about certain cases. When I've 433 00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:27,240 been asked, Hey, we need you not to say that, 434 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,000 And that's sometimes we're in journalism. You get to make 435 00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:32,279 little deals where okay, okay, I cannot say that. Can 436 00:23:32,319 --> 00:23:34,640 you give me something else I can use or something? 437 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,480 And that's part of the back and forth you develop 438 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,680 with sources. Yeah, there's definite times when you have to 439 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,720 realize there's a public good to consider as well. Yeah, 440 00:23:43,759 --> 00:23:46,559 that's concerning if there are details there that should not 441 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:47,000 be there. 442 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 443 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:59,799 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 444 00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:01,880 my Murder now. 445 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 4: Southern Nightmare not only was a fantastic book, but it 446 00:24:05,519 --> 00:24:08,359 was also a podcast as well. And so what were 447 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,720 your goals ultimately for the book and for the podcast. 448 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,960 Was it just to bring awareness to the case or 449 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,119 do you have other goals in mind when you sat 450 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,480 down to write this and then to bring it to 451 00:24:19,559 --> 00:24:20,559 the podcast space. 452 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,079 Speaker 5: I think initially we were just looking to tell a 453 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,880 good story. I think we saw, okay, that there's this 454 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,920 story that really has that's been forgotten. One of the 455 00:24:32,319 --> 00:24:34,759 people who worked at Style was a victim of this. 456 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,920 We think, Okay, thirty years later, all of the people 457 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,359 who are connected with it are getting a lot older. 458 00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:43,160 We may be losing some of them. We did lose Ray. 459 00:24:43,519 --> 00:24:47,240 Ray Williams died not too long after the podcast aired, 460 00:24:47,559 --> 00:24:49,839 so we knew we were under a little bit of 461 00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:52,279 a ticking clock there. So yeah, I would say from 462 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:54,400 a journalistic perspective, we were looking to tell a good 463 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,759 story that had been forgotten. However, once I got into 464 00:24:57,799 --> 00:25:00,759 the digging in and started looking at this talking to people, 465 00:25:00,839 --> 00:25:03,759 and realized, on a second, this may be the first 466 00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:07,039 case in US history solved with DNA. What's going on here? 467 00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:10,559 Why don't more people know about this? And so then 468 00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:13,359 I think it became a little background on me. My 469 00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:17,279 father was deputy chief of the county. I lived in 470 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:20,799 Henriiko County. He was a thirty year some thirty some 471 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,359 year police veteran, and I grew up interested in law enforcement, 472 00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:28,519 never really considered his career because my dad just told 473 00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:30,519 me he didn't want me doing that. But I think 474 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,440 I had always had an interest in crime and law 475 00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:36,000 enforcement all that, just because having my dad and hearing 476 00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:38,880 stories and things. When I heard okay, we had the 477 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,960 first case DNA right here in Richmond, and nobody remembers it, 478 00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:46,200 I'm thinking, this is the story. This is the story 479 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,920 that needs to be told. This story needs to be 480 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,759 brought back to the public consciousness and given some real 481 00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:52,319 given some real prominence. 482 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 4: Did the book come first or did the podcast come first? 483 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 5: The podcast came first, and then the book came very 484 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,960 fast behind it. I had a media partnership deal with Style. 485 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,319 I did this independently of Style as my own enterprise, 486 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,640 but I had a deal with them where they would 487 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,000 get an excerpt, a written excerpt each week from the podcast. 488 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,079 For ten weeks we had the episodes airing. Style was 489 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,920 airing installments of the stories, which started with a cover 490 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,119 story in Style, and we kicked it off with a 491 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,680 live event at VCU, and then once we finished, I 492 00:26:27,759 --> 00:26:30,720 had a live show where we did the last episode 493 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:33,920 and a live performance, and then after that I decided 494 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,440 I've got all this material here I think I can 495 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,759 make a book out of this. I've already written a lot, 496 00:26:39,039 --> 00:26:41,960 and I was still piecing together some things, like, for instance, 497 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,680 you'll hear in the podcast, I was equivocating on the 498 00:26:44,759 --> 00:26:47,920 DNA a little bit because I wasn't sure because there 499 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,839 was another case that was going through right at the 500 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,279 same time, more or less as the as the South 501 00:26:54,279 --> 00:26:57,039 Side strangler case. So there was some question from different 502 00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:00,079 people about, Okay, which one was the first? I believe me. 503 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,680 I was still doing interviews, still doing research. Sometimes as 504 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,559 a basis of things that were being aired, I would 505 00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:08,880 get calls from people saying, oh, hey, you didn't interview. 506 00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:11,119 I was still doing reporting all the way up to 507 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,160 the very end of the podcast. It was crazy outside 508 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,680 of work. Outside of my full time job I had then, 509 00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:21,920 I was working probably another twenty thirty hours more a 510 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,680 week at nights and weekends. By the time all of 511 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,720 this finished, I had collected enough information and was able 512 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,279 to definitively say yes, this was the first DNA case. 513 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,680 I'd been able to do enough digging. And also I 514 00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:36,039 just had so many little things that we didn't have 515 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,359 room for in the podcast, seminatle things that got left 516 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,359 on the cutting room floor, so many interesting little tangents 517 00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:44,440 and side things. I dug up that I think it 518 00:27:44,519 --> 00:27:46,920 made for some extra material in the book that I 519 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,960 think if you liked the podcast, you'll still find some 520 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:49,880 new stuff in the book. 521 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,759 Speaker 4: Let's gohead and turn to listener questions about Southern Nightmare. 522 00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:55,759 I want to start with the first question, and this 523 00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:59,160 is from fellow author Lindsay Wade, who just had a 524 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,519 book come out and whose book is actually going to 525 00:28:01,519 --> 00:28:06,400 be our next pick for our book club. So Lindsey writes, 526 00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:09,400 my question is whether or not there has been confirmation 527 00:28:09,559 --> 00:28:14,240 that Timothy Spencer's DNA was added to Virginia's DNA database. 528 00:28:14,559 --> 00:28:17,000 The database was created in nineteen eighty nine and he 529 00:28:17,079 --> 00:28:20,319 was executed in nineteen ninety four. I'm curious if Virginia 530 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,039 went back and collected from death row inmates after the 531 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,559 database went into effect. Since this is not always the case. 532 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 5: I don't know for certain. I would think yes, but 533 00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:35,759 I'm not certain. Doctor Paul Ferreira, who unfortunately is no 534 00:28:35,799 --> 00:28:38,640 longer with us, he was director of the Virginia Department 535 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,640 of Forensic Science, and he established that databank, which again 536 00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:46,400 another first that Virginia created. The first DNA database in 537 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,720 the country, and that's what the FBI's database ended up 538 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,920 getting based on. And he established that here, and it 539 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,759 was established more or less as a direct result of 540 00:28:55,839 --> 00:28:58,920 the South Side strangler case. So I would have to 541 00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:02,640 think that because that case was what kicked it off. 542 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,920 And also they knew that there were other attacks. There 543 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,039 were a string of rapes in addition to the five murders, 544 00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:13,480 and they did find those connections, they did make connections 545 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,880 to some of those where there was some evidence left. Yeah, 546 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,240 I would think it would have to. 547 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,599 Speaker 2: Be I'm only going to push back lightly here because 548 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,640 I can't comment specifically about Virginia, but we have been 549 00:29:24,759 --> 00:29:29,799 disappointed numerous times in that people who you would think, 550 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,640 I'm talking about convicted killers, people on death row, people 551 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,440 that have even been executed, whose DNA is not in 552 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,400 the system in the way that you would think it 553 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,359 should be for a variety of reasons. And there's an 554 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:50,279 undercurrent here nationally that there are tens of thousands of 555 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,759 people whose DNA clearly belongs in the CODIS system and 556 00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:59,359 their DNA is not in the system, including people that 557 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,880 are currently incarcerated on death row now and the States, 558 00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:06,759 and again this is not a shot at Virginia, and 559 00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:10,799 it's not a comment about Virginia per se. The states 560 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,839 are completely dropping the ball. 561 00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 5: Is it a resources issue bill? Is it? 562 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: It's a lot of it's a lot of different things. 563 00:30:20,599 --> 00:30:24,240 There are questions about whether or not it's legal to 564 00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:29,279 go back and collect people's DNA, potentially forcibly. In other words, 565 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,759 some of these people are refusing to allow their DNA 566 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,720 to be taken. And there's question particularly at the state 567 00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:39,400 level in various states around the country, as to whether 568 00:30:39,519 --> 00:30:43,920 or not you can obligate someone to be forced to 569 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:44,920 give their DNA. 570 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,799 Speaker 5: I thought that had already been settled. Yeah, that's interesting. 571 00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:50,759 That's something I wasn't aware of. That's fascinating. 572 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very disturbing. 573 00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 5: And I think, yeah, because look at the Golden State killer. 574 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:01,000 So many cases in different jurisdictions. Case was similar to 575 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,880 this one in that he was committing crimes sometimes what 576 00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:08,519 an hour or two apart, an hour, two drives apart, 577 00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:11,160 just like this one. And they didn't realize that those 578 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,119 were connected, just like this one. And then some of 579 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,240 those got connected, the dots got connected by DNA and 580 00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:20,920 with a propensity for repeat offenders. Yeah, I'm with you. 581 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,440 That seems to me to be a no brainer that 582 00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:25,079 these people should be in the database. 583 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,559 Speaker 4: Our next question is from Sarah G. It's a bit 584 00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:29,559 of a long one, so I need a preface. So 585 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,519 Sarah G asks, the Diane chowcase really bugs me. It 586 00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:37,599 was completely different from the other crimes. There were two 587 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,839 hypotheses proposed in the book. Lewis Sleschender said that it 588 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,480 was possible and escalation and risk behavior, which is not 589 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:48,880 uncommon in serial killers. And two one of the detectives said, 590 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,880 maybe Spencer thought Dane was a young single woman because 591 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,920 her parents worked so much and we're out of the house. 592 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,880 Sarah is curious about which theory you hold with for 593 00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:58,400 this case. 594 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 5: Richard, I think what we do know of serial killers, 595 00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:06,319 what I have learned from talking with criminal justice experts, 596 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,279 they do escalate. In me, one thing leads to another 597 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,359 for various reasons. I cannot say myself. I don't think 598 00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:18,079 Timothy Spencer, the South Side strangler, was the kind of 599 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,359 person that would have cared how old a person was. 600 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,079 I don't think that mattered to him. I think what 601 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,200 mattered to him was did that person did the idea 602 00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:29,160 of attacking them push his buttons, and were they an 603 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,720 easy person to attack? Could he access them? And I 604 00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:37,319 think she was vulnerable because simply because she had there 605 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,480 was a way to get into her room. Her parents 606 00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:41,920 were not there very often, so it looked like a 607 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,279 woman who was on her own, or at least I 608 00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:47,039 think it was more about Again, I think a lot 609 00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:51,079 of times with serial killers, people want things to make sense. 610 00:32:51,519 --> 00:32:53,920 They want there to be some kind of logic what 611 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,519 they do. Sometimes they're just monsters. Sometimes there are just 612 00:32:57,559 --> 00:33:01,160 people who just want to do awful things because it 613 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,359 gets them excited. And that's not a great thing. That's 614 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,799 not something that anybody really wants to accept or believe, 615 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,319 and it's and I think she unfortunately was vulnerable and 616 00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:13,960 he saw those vulnerabilities. 617 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 4: Very good question from Sarah. So we have two from Amber. 618 00:33:18,599 --> 00:33:21,119 The first one I thought was particularly interesting because I 619 00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:24,319 love theme questions. She says, nightmares are obviously a theme 620 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,400 throughout the book. Did you have any nightmares during your 621 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,559 research and writing process for this? This is tough material. 622 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,799 Speaker 5: It is short answer. Yes, I don't know that I 623 00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:39,160 could say necessarily what they were, just because I don't 624 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,599 know that I remember, but I know I had some 625 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,880 I think it is very difficult to live, breathe, eat, 626 00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:51,160 sleep this for I did it for about thirteen fourteen 627 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,880 months between when I started the research on the project 628 00:33:54,039 --> 00:33:57,319 and published the book. Yeah, it is awful stuff that 629 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,960 sticks in your head and you think about this case 630 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,079 in particular, spoke to somebody who violated home and hearth, 631 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,159 who violated the safety and sanctity of people's homes. It 632 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,719 was such a violation just not only their bodies, but 633 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,639 just the basic decency of everything, of just what you 634 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,599 expect to be safe when you're in your own home. 635 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:21,480 And I think, yeah, it's hard not to feel that, 636 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,400 and to feel the fear and awfulness of that, and 637 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,280 to have some of the stuff pop up in your head. Yeah, 638 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,719 it's not a fun place to be. My hat is 639 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,119 off to homicide detectives and people who are able to 640 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:35,639 work in this field because the Lord knows they're needed, 641 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,280 especially good ones and talented ones. And that really is 642 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,840 a case. That's a job that eats some people up alive. Yeah, 643 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,320 I can't see doing this all the time. I think 644 00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:50,199 I once I was done with this, I needed a 645 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:52,199 break from it. I don't really think I have listened 646 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,239 to true crime podcasts or anything since that. To be 647 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,800 honest with you, I think I just needed to get 648 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:58,400 away from it. 649 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,119 Speaker 4: That is understandable. 650 00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:04,079 Speaker 2: I had the same thought. Understandable was the word that 651 00:35:04,159 --> 00:35:04,760 came to mind. 652 00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:08,599 Speaker 4: Second question from Amber, she asked about Rena. She said, 653 00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:13,679 did Rena's murder ever get investigated any further? And besides 654 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,920 the fibers that were found, was there anything else forensically 655 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,840 connecting her former roommate or someone else to the crime. 656 00:35:20,159 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 5: I can say that I think that case still bothers 657 00:35:24,199 --> 00:35:27,039 some retired law enforcement. I know there were a lot 658 00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:30,360 of rumors around that case. I think I was able 659 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,840 to disprove one of those rumors. But I will say 660 00:35:34,599 --> 00:35:36,639 I just got a call not too long ago from 661 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,880 somebody who was former law enforcement saying that they're still 662 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,639 digging into it. On the side, I don't know that 663 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,440 anything will ever come out of that because it's been 664 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,800 so long. I don't know what evidence, if any, still exists. 665 00:35:51,039 --> 00:35:54,159 My knowledge is there was not a whole lot connecting 666 00:35:54,159 --> 00:35:59,000 the former roommate other than circumstance and some fiber analysis. 667 00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:04,360 But he given the circumstances, it doesn't seem unlikely that 668 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,280 he did it. But it's hard to know. I don't 669 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,440 think it was a Timothy Spencer murder. I really don't 670 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,320 from everything I've heard, But yeah, I do know that 671 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,639 it's something that still interests former law enforcement folks. I 672 00:36:15,679 --> 00:36:17,480 don't know that there's ever going to be a resolution, 673 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,880 but they are still some of them are still bugged 674 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:20,159 by it. 675 00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:24,079 Speaker 2: I have an additional question as well, Richard, Southern Nightmare 676 00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:28,000 is such an amazing book and podcast series. Was this 677 00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:32,039 ever optioned for a film or television show? 678 00:36:32,679 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: No? 679 00:36:33,519 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 5: I think partly because I didn't have time to do 680 00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:40,159 the marketing and the legwork on it, and partly because 681 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,639 I decided to do it. My Betty Page book had 682 00:36:43,679 --> 00:36:48,000 been done through a traditional publisher and with resources and 683 00:36:48,639 --> 00:36:52,360 an organization that did successfully sell the film rights. With 684 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,800 this one, I decided to self publish and do my 685 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,320 own company because I wanted to see, Okay, if I 686 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,480 do that, do I get a bigger share of royalties? 687 00:36:59,519 --> 00:37:02,679 Blah blahl. I think what I was forgetting is you 688 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,599 also have to do all the marketing. Yes, They're a 689 00:37:06,599 --> 00:37:08,559 big piece of the puzzle there that I was missing, 690 00:37:08,679 --> 00:37:11,079 and I did not have time to really devote myself 691 00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:13,960 to that. Said, yeah, I think it would make a 692 00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:18,480 tremendous mini series or a documentary. Unfortunately some of the 693 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,039 folks are passed. But it's a tremendous story. To me, 694 00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:25,280 it's got It's every bit as interesting and compelling as 695 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,000 some of the things that I've seen from Netflix and such. 696 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 2: I think we both feel the same. 697 00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 4: Way, absolutely, and we've really already addressed i'd say the 698 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,079 biggest listener question of all, which is why this case 699 00:37:37,199 --> 00:37:40,599 just doesn't seem to be better known. The final listener 700 00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:43,559 question that we have is from Sam, who just says 701 00:37:43,599 --> 00:37:46,039 he what is your next project? To know what else 702 00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:47,199 you're planning on working on. 703 00:37:47,679 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 5: Bill knows that when I was finishing Southern Nightmare, I 704 00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:54,679 was actually interested in the Colonial Parkway and that was 705 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,360 where I was thinking about and I had some ideas 706 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:57,800 on that one. 707 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 4: He's come over and join us. 708 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,559 Speaker 5: That's how Bill and I met. But as pretty much 709 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,159 right after Southern Nightmare wrapped up and i'd taken a 710 00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:13,079 little rest for a couple of months, I got offered 711 00:38:13,199 --> 00:38:18,119 the editorship of Virginia Business. Since then, just being the 712 00:38:18,159 --> 00:38:21,119 head of this business magazine, it pretty much takes all 713 00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:23,639 of my time. We do great work and it's a 714 00:38:23,679 --> 00:38:27,320 busy publication, busy staff right now doesn't leave time for 715 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,920 things on the side. Unfortunately, I'd love to do another 716 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,159 season of Southern Nightmare. I've got ideas for lots of things, 717 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,599 and I'm hoping I'll get to come back to it sometime. 718 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 4: The book and the podcast is Southern Nightmare, The Hunt 719 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,519 for the South Side Strangler and Richard. If people want 720 00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:46,159 to buy this, where can they buy it? 721 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:47,039 Speaker 5: Amazon? 722 00:38:47,559 --> 00:38:49,639 Speaker 4: All right? Richard, thank you so much for joining us. 723 00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:52,639 Speaker 5: We appreciate it, Thank you, Thank you had a great time. 724 00:38:53,039 --> 00:38:55,519 Speaker 4: We hope that everyone has enjoyed our first selection for 725 00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:58,239 the Mind of a Murder book Club, Southern Nightmare. We 726 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,159 will put up some links and resources in our show 727 00:39:01,199 --> 00:39:04,119 notes so that you can locate the podcast, and we 728 00:39:04,159 --> 00:39:07,840 will announce our next book club selection very shortly. Thank 729 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:09,679 you so much for joining us for this episode of 730 00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:12,239 Mind over Murder. We'll see you next time. 731 00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:25,159 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 732 00:39:25,199 --> 00:39:26,639 Another Dog Productions. 733 00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:30,559 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 734 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit. 735 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,039 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 736 00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:40,559 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 737 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 738 00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:47,199 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 739 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,159 murders on Facebook. 740 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 741 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,519 Bill Thomas. Five six. 742 00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:15,079 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder about cont