1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 4: Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 15 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,200 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by friend 16 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,920 of the podcast, Ron Peterson, back for his fifth go 17 00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:56,399 around on mind Over Murder. Welcome Ron, We're so glad 18 00:00:56,439 --> 00:00:58,679 to have you back. Thank you, Kristin. 19 00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:00,759 Speaker 5: Bill. It's great to be on the podcas cast again 20 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,479 and now five times. I'm honored to be a frequent 21 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:04,200 flyer here. 22 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:10,159 Speaker 2: I don't know if anybody's ever exceeded Ron Peterson's totals here. 23 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,000 This is pretty impressive. 24 00:01:12,359 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 4: He is one of our OG guests. 25 00:01:14,359 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, although we still think of you as a 26 00:01:17,519 --> 00:01:18,280 youthful OG. 27 00:01:19,599 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 5: Thank you. I could think back. It was twenty nineteen 28 00:01:21,879 --> 00:01:23,959 when I came on the podcast for the first time. 29 00:01:24,359 --> 00:01:26,519 I had just Readen, my first book, and I didn't 30 00:01:26,519 --> 00:01:29,159 know what I was doing, And now five years later, 31 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,040 I still don't know what That. 32 00:01:31,079 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 4: Is not true. Your readers would beg to differ, and 33 00:01:36,239 --> 00:01:38,959 you are a perpetual fan favorite. We do have people 34 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,040 who say I want something that's as good as Ron 35 00:01:41,079 --> 00:01:43,319 Peterson's books, and we say we'll try to do the 36 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,840 best we can, but nothing beats our Ron Peterson. 37 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: Book twenty nineteen. I think Kristin and I had just 38 00:01:48,719 --> 00:01:54,799 invented podcasting back then. Oh no, I'm sorry, learned about podcasting. 39 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, so you just you had just broked me into 40 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,840 this really crazy saying, and we're trying to convince me 41 00:02:00,879 --> 00:02:03,280 it was a good idea, And five years later, I'm 42 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:04,519 still not sure it's a good idea. 43 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: But here we are, my dear, Actually six years come 44 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,520 coming up on seven. Kind of scary. 45 00:02:12,759 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 6: Nah, I don't accept that you were a mere last 46 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:18,240 when we got started. 47 00:02:18,319 --> 00:02:22,759 Speaker 5: So it's all good millions of downloads later for you guys. 48 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: So let's talk about Ron Peterson's new book, Runaway Groom. 49 00:02:28,039 --> 00:02:32,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, Runaway Groom takes place in Stanton, Virginia's So Ron 50 00:02:32,759 --> 00:02:35,240 tell us a little bit about the case behind the book. 51 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 5: Thank you, Kristen. Yeah, it's a fifth book I've written, 52 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,240 and these are all Virginia true crime. In each of them, 53 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,199 I've taken about a year to research and write and 54 00:02:45,319 --> 00:02:47,240 to work with the key people that were involved in 55 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,240 the case to tell their stories. And as you said, 56 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,439 it takes place in Stanton, Virginia. It's a missing person 57 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,039 case about a young man named Pete Miller who disappeared 58 00:02:57,039 --> 00:02:59,960 in nineteen eighty three. Pete who was twenty years old. 59 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,120 And the unique thing was that he disappeared two days 60 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,240 before his wedding day, which was November seventeenth, nineteen eighty three. 61 00:03:09,159 --> 00:03:12,199 Speaker 4: The interesting question behind the book, the one that's written 62 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,199 on the slug line right at the top, is cold 63 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:19,400 feet or cold blooded murder. When someone first told you 64 00:03:19,479 --> 00:03:21,879 about the case, what was your first thought? Did this 65 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,280 kid run away or was this kid murdered? You're a 66 00:03:24,319 --> 00:03:26,360 crime writer, did your mind immediately go to crime? 67 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,039 Speaker 5: It did not at first, as you hear of truth 68 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,280 and stranger than fiction, right, yeah, natural. When he disappeared, 69 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,280 at first there was thought that he just had cold 70 00:03:35,319 --> 00:03:37,680 feet and ran off, but he said he was twenty 71 00:03:37,759 --> 00:03:40,000 years old. They was very excited to be marrying the 72 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,120 love of his life. Her name was Pitty Wilson. As 73 00:03:43,199 --> 00:03:45,680 the days went by and the weeks went by, and 74 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,439 they turned to monks, his family was adamant that there 75 00:03:48,479 --> 00:03:51,360 was foul play involved, that PD had met a terrible 76 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,240 feat and ultimately they came to believe that he was murdered. 77 00:03:54,719 --> 00:03:57,159 As you guys know, with any missing person or a 78 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,560 murder investigation, it starts with people closest to the victim. 79 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,199 So started this family, they took a good look at 80 00:04:04,199 --> 00:04:08,199 his fiance. Then after that one of the prime suspects 81 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,039 was his father in law to be. In this case, 82 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,120 it was his bride to be stepfather, whose name was 83 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,480 Charlie Almond, And he's certainly a big part of the story. 84 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 2: Where did most people come down. Here's this young guy, 85 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,120 he's about to get married to the love of his life, 86 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,079 as you said, and then he disappears. Do you know 87 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,680 or have a sense of whether most people thought he 88 00:04:31,959 --> 00:04:35,560 was the room with cold feet, or that something terrible 89 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,399 had happened. Do you know, like where the majority of 90 00:04:38,639 --> 00:04:40,160 friends and family came down. 91 00:04:41,079 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, I would say that the people I talked to 92 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,759 that knew, well, they knew within a day or two 93 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,040 that something was terribly wrong. People that maybe only knew 94 00:04:50,079 --> 00:04:53,000 him casually, or who lived in the city of Stanton 95 00:04:53,079 --> 00:04:56,000 or the surrounding county, Augusta County, you know, they tend 96 00:04:56,079 --> 00:04:58,639 to think although he just ran off. You know a 97 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,079 little bit about em I mentioned he was twenty years old. 98 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,319 He had not traveled extensively outside of the Stantony area 99 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,199 outside Augusta County, so was not a big traveler, which 100 00:05:09,319 --> 00:05:12,000 just a good hearted country boy like, which is how 101 00:05:12,079 --> 00:05:15,439 his sister and family members I spoke with described him. 102 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 4: It's always a tragedy to read about a young person 103 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,079 losing their life before their life is relie even started. 104 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,800 But this one really just felt so awful because he 105 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,600 seemed like one of those He's a very nice guy. 106 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,959 He's a quintessential nice guy, and so to hear that 107 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,279 something awful had happened to him, it just made my 108 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:36,120 heart hurt. 109 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,439 Speaker 5: Yeah, and obviously your heart goes out to his family. 110 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,560 They were his mother and father, and then he had 111 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,519 a younger sister named Dorothy, who was one of the 112 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,120 key sources I worked with on the book. His father 113 00:05:47,319 --> 00:05:49,519 was a farmer. He ran a family farm and then 114 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,839 also had a job as a small engine repair man shop. 115 00:05:52,879 --> 00:05:56,000 He ran repaired lawn bowers and farm equipment. They were 116 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,800 just good, simple people, and I say simple in a 117 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,839 complimentary way because there was a lot of drama, but 118 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:04,519 not a lot like you'd hear about maybe some families 119 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,680 involved in other cases. The real hero of the story 120 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,160 would be Pete's father's name was Richard Miller, who was 121 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,959 in his forties when Pete disappeared. The local police department there, 122 00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:19,319 on gust account sheriff department. They were a good police force, 123 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,959 but like a lot of rural or what we call 124 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,040 country police forces, they didn't have the opportunity to work 125 00:06:25,079 --> 00:06:28,800 a lot of homicide cases. So you know, if anything 126 00:06:28,879 --> 00:06:31,319 they were they probably didn't approach the case in the 127 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,279 same manner that a city would somewhere, say Richmond or 128 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,360 Norfolk were one of the other bigger cities that we 129 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,959 know of here Virginia from the very beginning of the 130 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,399 investigation was probably not as aggressive its should have been. 131 00:06:42,879 --> 00:06:45,439 Then the PD's truck was also missing. It was an 132 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,959 old Chevrolet truck and about a mark after its disappearance, 133 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,279 that truck was got in Richmond, which was about an 134 00:06:51,319 --> 00:06:54,680 hour and a half drive from Stanton. Was Then the 135 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,800 book gets into how it was processed for evidence, and 136 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,199 there were Although there was no forensic evidence and it's 137 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,199 some value obtained from the truck, there were things about it. 138 00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:05,720 It's about that situation that pointed to the person who 139 00:07:05,759 --> 00:07:09,199 eventually became the prime suspect, and that was Charlie Almond 140 00:07:09,199 --> 00:07:12,079 who I mentioned, who was his bride to be stepfather. 141 00:07:12,399 --> 00:07:15,000 Charliott Almond was in his fifties and he was a 142 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,560 guy who had a criminal pass, had served time in 143 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,600 prison before on property crimes like breaking an entering. This 144 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,399 was a day or a time when we didn't have 145 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,639 computerized records like we do now that showed his criminal 146 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,040 history from the sixties and seventies, had a very violent past, 147 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,079 had attempted a note at one point, while the book 148 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,000 gets into that when in the nineteen sixties he was 149 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,600 serving time in prison on robbery charges and his girlfriend 150 00:07:41,639 --> 00:07:44,560 married another man while he was in prison. Charlie Almond 151 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,160 swore he was going to kill the guy when he 152 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:48,759 got out, and then sure enough, when he got out, 153 00:07:48,959 --> 00:07:52,800 his old girlfriend moved to Charlotte with her new husband, 154 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,680 in large part to get away from Charlie Almond. And 155 00:07:56,079 --> 00:07:59,319 nineteen sixty six, one morning he got out to step 156 00:07:59,319 --> 00:08:01,319 out to go to work and there was a bomb 157 00:08:01,399 --> 00:08:04,759 planted under the stepson's trailer. Flew both of his legs 158 00:08:04,759 --> 00:08:07,759 and his arms, alving the mark of Lake survived that 159 00:08:07,759 --> 00:08:10,759 that bombing. Charlie Olman face charges in math, but through 160 00:08:10,759 --> 00:08:13,839 a really frustrating set of circumstances, he was not convicted 161 00:08:13,879 --> 00:08:17,360 of that crawing that happened a good eighteen years before 162 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,240 before PD disappeared, and happened in another state in other jurisdiction, 163 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,199 and wasn't convicted of it. So there are a lot 164 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,959 of people who didn't know about that aspect of his pants. 165 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, when I read that portion of the book, Mine 166 00:08:29,519 --> 00:08:33,360 Shaw hit the floor. I have never in a million 167 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,519 years heard about that kind of vindictiveness, and certainly not, 168 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,200 and then of course I'd never heard anybody who survived. Yeah, 169 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,600 a bomb blast like that, that's insane. But yeah, as 170 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,159 soon as I read about that, I was like, this 171 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,399 is not a guy you want to mess with. This 172 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,919 is so bad, Like this is looking really bad for 173 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,639 PD here. And so my question throughout the book was 174 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,679 what did p D ultimately do to encourage Charlie's wrath? 175 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,200 And you answered it, but way late in. 176 00:08:59,159 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 5: The book there was a motive for PD's murder And yeah, 177 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,080 you're right, Chris, and that was something that it did 178 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,679 come up early in the investigation, but it became more 179 00:09:08,759 --> 00:09:12,639 clear decades later as an investigation progressed. Charlie Allmond, it 180 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,679 seemed to me the comparison I make of him, and 181 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:17,679 I don't think I made it in the book, was 182 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,600 he was the hill billy Tony Soprano. Wow, yeah, in 183 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:25,399 just saying yeah, one of my all time favorite shows 184 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,759 is The Sopranos, and oh, Tony Tony Soprano, the character 185 00:09:29,799 --> 00:09:32,240 on there, it is the sociopath and a guy that 186 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,679 operates above the law. He's got legal businesses and then 187 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,039 he's got illegal aspects that he makes a lot of 188 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,320 money on. A very violent guy, very vengeful and really 189 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,960 in his own way. Charlie Almond in this story was 190 00:09:45,519 --> 00:09:48,559 certainly was a hill billy version of Tony Soprano, and 191 00:09:48,639 --> 00:09:51,360 that he also had people that worked with him with 192 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,919 these these crimes that he'd be involved in. 193 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: Question for you, though, Pee Miller is a very young man. 194 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:00,960 He's only twenty years old, so he's barely out of 195 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,600 his teens. Is he aware of the fact that his 196 00:10:05,039 --> 00:10:08,759 father in law perspective father in law has this incredibly 197 00:10:08,879 --> 00:10:11,919 violent past and is actually scary dude. 198 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 5: That's a great question. I don't think he was fully 199 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,919 aware of it. I think he was. PD was probably 200 00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:20,200 and I say probably because I can't be sure. He's 201 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,000 probably young and naive enough that he still saw the 202 00:10:23,039 --> 00:10:26,399 good in people. Probably didn't understand what his future father 203 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,720 in law was really capable of. So that's I guess, 204 00:10:29,759 --> 00:10:32,679 another sad part of the story. It also speaks some 205 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,360 level of Ped's character and that he typically saw the 206 00:10:35,399 --> 00:10:37,879 good in people, and I'm sure he didn't think that 207 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,960 troll Norman was capable of doing what he was accused 208 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:41,399 of doing. 209 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,919 Speaker 2: That's all fine if there's good to be found, but 210 00:10:45,039 --> 00:10:49,200 Charlie Alman doesn't really sound like he was deserving of 211 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,559 PD's always looking for the good in people. 212 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 5: Park he didn't have a lot of redeeming qualities, but 213 00:10:54,919 --> 00:10:57,840 I think he could probably put on a good first impression, 214 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,519 of good outward impression to people. 215 00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 4: We know that over the many years that passed by 216 00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:06,159 with no answers in the PD Miller case, the case 217 00:11:06,519 --> 00:11:09,720 did eventually go cold. I know that at least part 218 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:13,279 of the reason was because PD was never found. But 219 00:11:13,759 --> 00:11:16,279 was it just a lack of a body that made 220 00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:17,200 the case go cult? 221 00:11:19,519 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 5: That was definitely not the only factor. I mentioned the 222 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,840 Sheriff's Department. While they were a good, dedicated law enforcement agency, 223 00:11:26,279 --> 00:11:28,879 they did have some shortcomings I think in investigating a 224 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,919 case like this. I sayed that because I was privy 225 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,360 to the case file, I was given a case file 226 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,320 which spanned four decades in order to support the research 227 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,240 I did for the book. The investigators, I will say 228 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,480 they were all very ridiculous and the notes they took 229 00:11:43,519 --> 00:11:46,440 and the impressions they had of different suspects of different 230 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,159 people that they interviewed. But there are certain times that 231 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,360 you as you're reading through it and realized that maybe 232 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,679 more experienced investigator would end up things a little bit different. 233 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,720 One of the reasons we'd like true crime is we 234 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,360 always liked to Monday Morning Quarterback the decisions the law 235 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,080 enforcement makes, and that's one that I did and readers 236 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,759 will like to do. In this there was also a 237 00:12:06,759 --> 00:12:10,159 local prosecutor. His name was Lee Irvin. He was the 238 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,440 elected Commonwealth's Attorney of Augusta County. He did a good job. 239 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,840 But in this case, as more and more evidence over 240 00:12:17,919 --> 00:12:22,159 the years was uncovered that implicated Charlie Almond, who was 241 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,759 getting older through the decades as well, he was very 242 00:12:25,799 --> 00:12:30,279 hesitant to attempt to indict Almond from both his fear. Obviously, 243 00:12:30,519 --> 00:12:33,200 there's an expression you can indict, I am Sam that 244 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,320 junior prosecutors say that on one of my favorite expressions 245 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,080 he here on mull in order a lot on the 246 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,159 television show. But can you convince a jury of twelve 247 00:12:41,159 --> 00:12:44,759 that someone is guilty? And according to the local Commonwealth's attorney, 248 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,200 although you could arguably have probable cause, you couldn't convince 249 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,519 a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, this suspect Charlie Allmond 250 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,720 had actually killed Pete Miller. You were missing. There was 251 00:12:55,759 --> 00:12:59,320 no forensic evidence. There was only circumstantial evidence, and obviously 252 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,879 the biggest piece the investigation you were missing, and that 253 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,720 was the body. Now this book I mentioned, it's my fifth. 254 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,240 It's a contrast for my first book, which I wrote 255 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,879 about another no body murder case, the case of Gina Hall, 256 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,720 in which Steve Epley was convicted in the commonwealth attorney 257 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,559 in that case in Pulaski County, Virginia, Everett Shockley, he 258 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,000 was one that boldly decided to move forward and died 259 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,639 uptly for murder without the biggest piece of evidence, and 260 00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:29,960 that became the first nobody murder conviction of Virginia. It's 261 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,440 an interesting thing to compare and contrast these two cases 262 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:35,600 and where they were throughout the investigation. 263 00:13:36,159 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: There are some of the challenges in a nobody homicide 264 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:45,840 investigation and ultimately prosecution. Some people really struggle with this, 265 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,559 like the idea that are you really going to be 266 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,879 able to charge someone with murder when you actually don't 267 00:13:51,879 --> 00:13:54,559 have the ultimate proof that someone is dead, which is 268 00:13:54,799 --> 00:13:55,360 a cadaver. 269 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's done quite a bit now. Bensville and 270 00:13:59,159 --> 00:14:02,879 Kristens Early. As listeners the podcasts know from the crime 271 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,639 stories that you hear about, it's not unusual these days 272 00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:09,120 because of all the technology that we have, not only DNA, 273 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,519 but cell phone evidence cameras, just all the technology that 274 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,120 a prosecutor can bring to bear and a nobody murder prosecution, 275 00:14:17,519 --> 00:14:20,559 but back then we didn't have that back in the 276 00:14:20,639 --> 00:14:23,799 eighties we're talking. This was over forty years ago. As 277 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,679 I've said a few times, you know that biggest piece 278 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,159 of evidence is the body. You can tell so many 279 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,600 things by the time of death, the cause of death, 280 00:14:32,039 --> 00:14:35,480 as well as gathering forensic evidence that can implicate the killer. 281 00:14:36,039 --> 00:14:38,720 And then with I think anytime there's a jury of twelve, 282 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,200 the easiest thing for a defense attorney to do is 283 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,200 to say, hey, you haven't even proved this person it's dead. Yeah, 284 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,519 that posture has proved three things. Has to prove that 285 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,759 the alleged victim is in fact dead, that they're dead 286 00:14:51,799 --> 00:14:54,639 as a result of homicide. And then the third thing 287 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,399 is that the accused actually committed the murder. You're really 288 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,600 behind the eight ball prosecuting a nobody murder case. 289 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,679 Speaker 4: Did Charlie Almond's reputation in the Valley also influence the 290 00:15:07,759 --> 00:15:11,320 fact that the Commonwealth's Attorney, Lee Irvin was really thinking 291 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,600 twice before trying to prosecute him. Did his Tony Sopranos 292 00:15:15,799 --> 00:15:17,919 reputation have anything to do with why there was some 293 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:18,840 hesitancy there. 294 00:15:19,759 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 5: I think it probably did. Although a lot of people 295 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,799 I knew who knew Lee Irvin and worked around her 296 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,639 for a while him for many years, have said that 297 00:15:27,679 --> 00:15:30,200 they don't think that he was intimidated by Charlie Almon. 298 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,600 But you know, really, I don't think. I don't see 299 00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:34,960 how you could be. I mentioned that had tried to 300 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,000 kill someone with a bombing. He also faced charges for 301 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,600 poisoning someone. 302 00:15:39,759 --> 00:15:40,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, that was crazy. 303 00:15:41,919 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 5: I got this is the type of person. They wouldn't 304 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,200 just walk up to you and assault you, but he 305 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,480 would do things really sneaky way. I also just paper 306 00:15:49,519 --> 00:15:52,799 account of him having a business disagreement with someone and 307 00:15:53,039 --> 00:15:55,799 he threw a skunk in their will. It's so Almo's funny, 308 00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:57,879 and would Lizzy's read it, they'll laugh just a how 309 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,200 vengeful he was. But obviously we're talking about something really 310 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,039 serious here. The prosecutor very well may have been a 311 00:16:04,039 --> 00:16:06,639 bit intimidated with I think if he'd have been one 312 00:16:06,679 --> 00:16:09,600 hundred percent sure that he could have charged Almond with 313 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,519 murder and convicted him, that he would have gone forward 314 00:16:12,559 --> 00:16:14,600 with it. In the absence of that that he was 315 00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:16,600 not going to not going to mess around with them, 316 00:16:17,159 --> 00:16:19,200 and I do think over the years there were many 317 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,120 investigators and many officers in Augusta County who worked on 318 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,879 this case, and I think there's a good possibility also 319 00:16:25,039 --> 00:16:28,639 a lot of them were intimidated by Charlie Almond as well. 320 00:16:28,679 --> 00:16:32,399 Speaker 2: In a book that's packed with some really colorful names 321 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,559 like Charlie Almond, I really like the name of this citizen, 322 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,759 Sleuth Lowell. Sheets that sounds like a stage name almost 323 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,399 tell us about Lowell and how his sleuthing helped solve 324 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,559 a cold case in Stanton, Virginia. 325 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,279 Speaker 5: Lowell was an awesome guy to work with as I 326 00:16:52,279 --> 00:16:54,399 wrote the book. He was another one of my sources 327 00:16:54,399 --> 00:16:57,679 who provided a lot of information. He was a local citizen. 328 00:16:57,759 --> 00:17:01,360 He grew up in Augusta County, was a graduate Afford 329 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,839 Defiance High School there, and he owned an a client store, 330 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,400 probably the largest appliance store Inton and Augusta Kernick. He 331 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,799 had a background originally as a Probation of Parole officer, 332 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:14,359 where I think was one of the first shots he 333 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,319 had out of college, so he knew the legal system 334 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,680 and also got to be friends with a lot of people. 335 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,279 He knew the town well and just a good student 336 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,079 of human nature. He became interested in another case, a 337 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,480 martyr case pretty notorious in Stanton. It was known as 338 00:17:29,519 --> 00:17:32,160 the High's ice Cream murders, when two people in a 339 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,640 High Oh Yeah store were chilled. He was a guy, 340 00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:37,000 just as you said of citizen Sleuth, who took an 341 00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:40,039 interest in that case, got permission from the Stanton Police 342 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:43,960 Department to work on it, and he actually helped solve 343 00:17:44,039 --> 00:17:46,640 that case. He was the guy who identified his suspect 344 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,799 and eventually there was a deathbed confession and that unsolved 345 00:17:49,839 --> 00:17:53,680 double murder that had haunted Stanton for decades. So when PD. 346 00:17:53,799 --> 00:17:56,240 Miller's father heard about that, he got in touch with 347 00:17:56,319 --> 00:17:58,920 LOLd Sheets and said, hey, I want you to help 348 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,279 with my son's case. I think we know who did it. 349 00:18:01,319 --> 00:18:03,640 I want you to work on it and potentially even 350 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,240 help the Sheriff's department here. And that's what moul Sheets did, 351 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:10,519 and it's part time. He helped out and although there 352 00:18:10,559 --> 00:18:14,559 was nothing that he did directly to move the case forward, 353 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,039 he really uncovered a lot of interesting information I think, 354 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,400 and made it more of an initiative for the Sheriff's 355 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:21,759 department to work on the case. 356 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 4: Familiar figure that longtime Ron Peterson readers will recognize from 357 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:31,240 In the Wind also appears in the pages of this book. 358 00:18:31,279 --> 00:18:34,359 And that's still Figura. Okay, the Dragon Slayer. 359 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,279 Speaker 2: I love that nickname. 360 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 4: Which is that's the best nickname ever. Was like, I 361 00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:41,720 would love it if that was my nickname. 362 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 2: That's fantastic, Phil, But people call me the Dragon Claire. 363 00:18:46,279 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 4: I love. 364 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,599 Speaker 2: We want to meet Phil at some point, yes. 365 00:18:50,599 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred percent. Remind our listeners who Phil is 366 00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:57,319 and how he was involved in both In the Wind 367 00:18:57,519 --> 00:18:59,359 and then here in Runaway Groom. 368 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:03,039 Speaker 5: Absolutely, And first off, I have to say Phil is 369 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:05,720 probably the most modest person I know in terms of 370 00:19:05,759 --> 00:19:08,599 the incredible work he's done and just how modest and 371 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,440 unassuming he is about it. Phil worked for many years 372 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:15,920 as the Assistant Attorney General in Richmond work in the 373 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,119 Attorney General's office. He's an attorney and probably one of 374 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,359 the best prosecutors we've ever had in Virginia. His job 375 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,599 in the Attorney General's office is, or it was, he's 376 00:19:25,599 --> 00:19:28,559 no longer in that position. When there was a difficult 377 00:19:28,599 --> 00:19:32,160 to prosecute case out in a county or a city 378 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,440 and the local prosecutor was not comfortable prosecuting that case, 379 00:19:35,519 --> 00:19:38,599 or was not capable to prosecuting that case. Then Phil 380 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,039 Figuera with someone who could be brought in to pick 381 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,920 up the investigation and ultimately indict the suspect, take the 382 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,960 case to court and prosecute that person, and much more 383 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,960 often than not, win that case. Over the years, in 384 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,400 the two thousands, he prosecuted gang murder cases and new 385 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,759 print news and in Norfolk, in the Shenandoah Valley a 386 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,960 like Harrisonburg and up and Down eighty one. In the 387 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,759 two early two thousands, there was a drug problem. There 388 00:20:05,759 --> 00:20:08,799 were drug gangs, and there were related homicides to that, 389 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,440 and filled with someone who came from Richmond to prosecute 390 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,359 those cases and really made a lot of headway in that, 391 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:17,039 and a lot of that was an initiative by the 392 00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:18,680 Governor of Virginia at that time. 393 00:20:20,759 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 394 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:31,039 after this word from our sponsors, We're back here at 395 00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:32,000 mindover Murder. 396 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,839 Speaker 5: The turning point in the PD Miller case was in 397 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,079 twenty eleven, and now this is the fourth decade ped 398 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,599 has been missing. It was twenty eleven Pete's father, with 399 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,880 nothing to lose he made a phone call. He got 400 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,680 philter Gera's cell phone number, called Phil to Gera and 401 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:53,160 Phil's driving in his car and starts basically almost an 402 00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:56,680 argument with saying, Hey, I know who killed my son. 403 00:20:56,759 --> 00:20:59,039 No one is doing anything about it. You've got to 404 00:20:59,079 --> 00:21:02,640 come here to Stanton hold this person accountable. And Phil 405 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,960 lappingly told me he said, now wait a minute, who 406 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,519 are you and what case are you talking? 407 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 6: Yeah? 408 00:21:08,519 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 5: Arguing with me yet, yeah, but Phil getting a really 409 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,680 detailed account of this conversation. At that point, mister Miller, 410 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,160 Pete's father calmed down and he said, here's what's going on. 411 00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:22,319 As I said, nobody will do a damn thing about it. 412 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,359 Phil promised him. He said, hey, I promise you I 413 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,759 will talk to the local prosecutor there un though you 414 00:21:27,799 --> 00:21:30,359 were standing, I happen to know him, and if there's 415 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,759 anything I can do, I'll do it. So a few 416 00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:35,799 days later Phil started looking into the case and he 417 00:21:35,839 --> 00:21:38,920 got very interested in it. He asked the local prosecutors 418 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,920 permission to pick up the case, and Lee Irvan was 419 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,319 more than happy to let him do it. And then 420 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,160 Phil began working with another hero in this story, whose 421 00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:50,720 name was Aaron Levett. Aaron was a lieutenant with the 422 00:21:50,759 --> 00:21:54,000 jong Eath County Sheriff's Apartment and the lead investigator in 423 00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:56,720 this case. I had just started working on the case 424 00:21:56,759 --> 00:21:59,559 about a year or two prior. And was that probobial 425 00:21:59,559 --> 00:22:01,559 fresh sense of eyes that had been on the case. 426 00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:06,039 Oh yeah, yeah. So together Phil Fagera and Aaron Leveck 427 00:22:07,079 --> 00:22:09,839 got a lot more serious about prosecuting the case. And 428 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,519 there were many witnesses in the community there who had 429 00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:15,680 circumstantial evidence, none of it direct evident. There was no 430 00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:19,720 witness to the murder. They became more comfortable and more 431 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:22,559 confident that, you know, that the case would be prosecuted 432 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,039 and that all men could potentially be put where he 433 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,200 belonged to prison than in twenty fifteen, Charlie Armon eventually 434 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:33,160 was indicted for the first degree murder of Pete Miller. 435 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,799 And I've already probably given away too much of the story, 436 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,160 but oh no, I think there's so much more. 437 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,799 Speaker 4: Really, there is a ton more. Yeah, yeah, oh, Because 438 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,519 it's the interesting part is figuring out how are they 439 00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:47,839 finally going to how are they finally going to get 440 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,440 this guy? How are we finally going to reach a 441 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,839 point that allows him to prosecute this guy that we've 442 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,200 all known from the beginning one hundred percent did this. 443 00:22:57,079 --> 00:23:01,480 He sounded just awful. We had mentioned at one point 444 00:23:01,519 --> 00:23:04,759 in there that Charlie Allman would make a point of 445 00:23:04,799 --> 00:23:07,240 going to places where he knew the Miller family was 446 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:09,880 going to be so that they could see him, almost 447 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,480 as a taunt but that I did this to your kid, 448 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,839 but you can't prove it, and I'm going to be 449 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,279 here in various places and just taunt you about it. 450 00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:20,400 It was like, I can't think of anything worse to 451 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,119 do to a grieving family than to make sure that 452 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,680 you're always there right where they can see you. What 453 00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:30,359 an evil, awful thing to do just that on its face. 454 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,279 Speaker 5: It really was. It was a true sociopath, and just 455 00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:36,880 the things he did to talk to family, it was 456 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,400 really sadistic to do that. In a lot of ways, 457 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,480 it was to intimidate Bim and other people who might 458 00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:45,119 have information. He did not want him to come forward. 459 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,119 I mentioned when phild Figuera began to investigate and prosecute 460 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,440 the case, what had happened over those last three or 461 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,920 four decades. Charlie Allmond just his in his role as 462 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,720 a career criminal. He would use Pete Miller at an example, 463 00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:04,440 to intimidate other people if he hadn't disagreement with someone, 464 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,000 whether it was a business disagreement or a disagreement or 465 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,119 with criminal matter, he'd tell them things like, listen, you're 466 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,720 going to end up just like PD Miller. Or another 467 00:24:13,759 --> 00:24:16,160 time he had an altercation with someone said listen, I 468 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,720 have a way of making people disappear. And there were 469 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,160 other things that said that were even detailed about what 470 00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:24,440 he had done to PD. And again it was to 471 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,599 boost to them credibility as a violent criminal and then 472 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,559 also to intimidate people to his advantage. Now, those people 473 00:24:31,559 --> 00:24:33,799 had always been scared to come on to record and 474 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:37,000 share that information with law enforcement. But then when Phil 475 00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:40,359 Fagha picked up the case, those same witnesses, when in 476 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,720 Phil Figere and Aaron Levett would circle back to them 477 00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:44,920 and talk to them, they were a lot more confident 478 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,960 coming forward. And then those were the people who eventually 479 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,640 testified in the trial against Charlie Almond. I can't tell 480 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,519 how it ended up, but I can tell you it 481 00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:56,880 was an entirely circumstantial case that was presented. There was 482 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,279 no forensic evidence in what was their thirty three year 483 00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:03,960 old nobody murder case. Just a fascinating job with the 484 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,359 prosecution of this case. 485 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 2: Let's go to motive for a second. Other than the 486 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,599 fact that Charlie Allmond is clearly a sociopath, why would 487 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,000 he want to kill off his daughter's boyfriend soon to 488 00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:18,880 be husband. 489 00:25:19,839 --> 00:25:23,839 Speaker 5: What's that about that? I probably should not get into. 490 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,039 I think that might be too much of a spoiler, 491 00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:30,920 except to say that Charlie obviously did not want his 492 00:25:31,039 --> 00:25:34,359 stepdaughter marrying pet Almond. She didn't want him to leave 493 00:25:34,759 --> 00:25:38,240 his house. Essentially, should be noted she was eighteen years 494 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,000 old at the time. 495 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he was twenty. It's not anybody was underage. 496 00:25:42,759 --> 00:25:45,440 I know they were a kid. You have to buy 497 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,000 the book if you want to find out why this 498 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:48,920 all went down. 499 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 5: I can tell you there was. It was a very 500 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,519 good motive that he had, not a good motive, but 501 00:25:55,559 --> 00:25:58,839 a very valid motive, and the jury found it quite 502 00:25:58,839 --> 00:26:01,160 easy to understand. I believe. I can tell you. 503 00:26:01,079 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: That as longtime supporters, we urge people to buy the book. Yeah, 504 00:26:05,759 --> 00:26:08,200 you're going to want to read run Away Groom, and 505 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,640 you're going to want to own a copy. 506 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely. Bron We're always eager to hear about your 507 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,319 research and writing process, so talk to us a little 508 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:22,079 bit about how you went about researching this case, especially 509 00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:25,400 because it's back in the eighties, which are feeling further 510 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,799 and further away every year. There aren't always computerized records availables. 511 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,599 What kind of shoe leather did you have to did 512 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,759 you have to use up to go to Stanton and 513 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:35,960 look up this information? 514 00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 5: Thanks for asking. It was all in all about a 515 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,720 year and a half I spent writing this book, and 516 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,720 it started several years ago actually, when Phil Figura, who 517 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,200 I wrote about him Casey prosecuted in Hampton in my 518 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,279 book As a Monster. Phil said, listen, I've got another 519 00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:56,039 case I prosecuted in Stanton. It was a doozy if 520 00:26:56,079 --> 00:26:58,160 you want to write about it will make a great story. 521 00:26:58,559 --> 00:27:00,119 And he gave me the short version of it, and 522 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,519 I said, man, absolutely, I had another book project I 523 00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:06,039 was doing before that, which was in the wind, and 524 00:27:06,079 --> 00:27:07,920 I promised him I was going to circle back, and 525 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,000 then when I did. Bill was my main source as 526 00:27:11,079 --> 00:27:14,400 the prosecutor in this murder case, and then he was 527 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,480 very kind to introduce me to the other people that 528 00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:19,400 were involved, and also to give me a reference that, 529 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:22,440 for example, the investigator and then other people that if 530 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,319 they talked to me, that I would do a good 531 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,599 job in sharing the true story of what happened. So 532 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,759 from there I found all the key people in the 533 00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:31,119 story that I had to interview. 534 00:27:31,559 --> 00:27:31,799 Speaker 2: Lol. 535 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,039 Speaker 5: Sheeks was one of them. Pete's closest surviving family member 536 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,640 was his sister Dorothy, who was a very cooperative and 537 00:27:39,759 --> 00:27:42,079 one of the story told. One of the things that 538 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,640 she said, she felt that over the years and just 539 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,039 because the things that came up in the trial, that p. 540 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,640 D had more or less lost his dignity and she 541 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,599 hoped that I could write the book in a way 542 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,440 that would help bring his dignity back. I feel like 543 00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:57,079 I did that, and then and spoke with her since 544 00:27:57,079 --> 00:27:59,319 she has read the book after it came out, she 545 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,480 came to one kickoff book launch events we did and 546 00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:04,920 seemed very gracious for the job I did in writing 547 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,480 the books, so I was very happy about that. I 548 00:28:07,599 --> 00:28:10,839 was also the Augusta count and Sheriff's department was very nice. 549 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,559 The current sheriff there and his lieutenant let me spend 550 00:28:14,559 --> 00:28:17,039 a few days actually at the sheriff's office. They wouldn't 551 00:28:17,079 --> 00:28:19,519 let me take the case file out, but I got 552 00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:21,440 to sit in the conference room and look through it. 553 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,359 It was two great, big banker's boxes with all the 554 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:29,480 information about this case, pictures, photos, suspect interviews, interviews of 555 00:28:29,599 --> 00:28:33,039 so many people around the case, and case summaries. So 556 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:35,119 I was able to do that. And then at the 557 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,920 Augusta County Courthouse because this was a landmark trial there 558 00:28:39,319 --> 00:28:42,160 they had a copy of the trial transcript. So one 559 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,920 of my favorite things that I've done this with other 560 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,000 books is to read through that trintal transcript reads like 561 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,440 an episode of Law and Order. It can read into it, 562 00:28:50,759 --> 00:28:54,000 and then to summarize that into about one hundred pages 563 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,519 of the book on what happened in the trial. All 564 00:28:56,559 --> 00:28:59,640 in all, I talked to probably probably about seventy five 565 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,759 source is in this book. Wow, and a lot of 566 00:29:01,759 --> 00:29:06,319 time in Stanton, which, despite these tragic and violin events, 567 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,720 one of my one of my favorite small towns at 568 00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:12,319 Prigid just it's gorgeous, Oh it is the just a 569 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,319 just an incredible town and named the county surrounding in 570 00:29:16,359 --> 00:29:19,519 Augusta County just a beautiful county there as well. That 571 00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:21,720 was you know, our process of writing the book. 572 00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:26,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, Stanton's got a wonderful little main street USA vibe. 573 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:29,319 And they've got a wonderful main street that my life 574 00:29:29,359 --> 00:29:32,079 partner Mark and I will go up there periodically, and 575 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,880 our favorite thing to do is hit the book Dragon first. 576 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: From book I remember you've mentioned the book Dragons. 577 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,039 Speaker 4: The book Dragon. I love the book Dragon. Shout out 578 00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:42,319 to the book Dragon. Walk around on the main street 579 00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:45,440 and stuff like that, and and then get dark chocolate 580 00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:49,839 gelato at the Split Banana Very Street, and that's that's 581 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,519 a good day in our book bookstores and ice cream. 582 00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:56,400 But Stanton's beautiful and it's got some really gorgeous architecture. 583 00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:58,759 So I envy you for being able to spend some 584 00:29:58,839 --> 00:29:59,599 time in Stanton. 585 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 5: It's yes, would you stay. 586 00:30:01,839 --> 00:30:04,839 Speaker 2: There or would you drive back and forth every day? 587 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,480 How did that work logistically? 588 00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 5: Yeah? I would stay there. I'd go for maybe two 589 00:30:09,279 --> 00:30:12,000 or three days at a time. It's about a about 590 00:30:12,039 --> 00:30:14,119 a two hour two and a half hour drive from 591 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,519 my house. Yeah, I'd stay a couple of days at 592 00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:18,960 a time. My wife came with me a few of 593 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,640 those times. Oh good, good, the same reasons as Chris, 594 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,279 and she really loved it. And then I'd also bounce 595 00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:27,880 ideas off of her and so forth. But yeah, it was. 596 00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:30,079 And the books I write, and you guys have probably 597 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:33,039 gathered this there. You've got the characters in the story, 598 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,400 and I try to bring them to life, these real 599 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,000 white people and the things they did. One of the 600 00:30:38,039 --> 00:30:41,119 other characters is the place that it happened, town of 601 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:44,319 Stanton in the surrounding Augusta County. And then another character 602 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,599 you could say, especially if we're talking about the meet thees, 603 00:30:46,759 --> 00:30:49,559 is you know the time period, so it was this 604 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,279 happened and except the stage. It was November of nineteen 605 00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:56,839 eighty three. Ronald Reagan was president. Most popular TV shows 606 00:30:56,839 --> 00:30:59,960 were Dallas and Madge. Oh yeah, The y Oakland Raiders 607 00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:02,119 were under way to winning the Super Bowl that year, 608 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,799 and the most popular song with songs were Thriller and 609 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,200 All Night Long by Lionel Ritchie. Uh huh yeah. But 610 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,160 if you like the country, which they get instant, and 611 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,680 the number one song was Islands in the Stream by 612 00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:15,279 Dolly Parton and Genmy Rodgers. 613 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 4: I remember it well, yeah, I remember that song there. 614 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But it does place it in an 615 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,640 era and a time and a place, and it helps 616 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,160 paint the picture for your reader about what was going 617 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:28,920 on back then. 618 00:31:30,279 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 5: Indeed, it really does, and it's I've mentioned this on 619 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,559 your podcast before, but one of the reasons I like 620 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,279 writing about the crime cases murder cases that happened in 621 00:31:39,319 --> 00:31:42,920 the eighties is it's a sweet spot in the the 622 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,839 people who worked on those cases very often by now 623 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,000 they're retired and they're more willing to share information. As 624 00:31:50,039 --> 00:31:52,119 you guys well know from your work in the Quarter 625 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,319 Parkway murders. When if an active investigation and open investigation agencies, 626 00:31:57,319 --> 00:31:59,839 whether it's local, state, or federal, they will generally will 627 00:31:59,839 --> 00:32:03,119 not share information because nope, they don't want to compromise 628 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,160 the investigation from the adjutation for that. So I've had 629 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,279 some frustration in doing that. I find if I write 630 00:32:11,319 --> 00:32:14,519 about a case like this one that's fully adjudicated, it's 631 00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:18,240 been through court that has concluded in some closure, then 632 00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:21,279 everybody's really willing to talk about it. And for so 633 00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:23,519 many of the law enforcement people who worked on this case, 634 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,519 this was the most noteworthy murder case that they'd ever 635 00:32:26,559 --> 00:32:29,720 been involved in because of all the crazy things that 636 00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:31,640 happened and the twists and turns. 637 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: Do most of those folks let you record them. When 638 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,480 you're doing here, you are you're interviewing as many as 639 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,279 seventy five people. A lot of them are going to 640 00:32:41,319 --> 00:32:44,359 have worthwhile things to say. I'm trying to figure out, 641 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,720 are you furiously taking notes or do they let you 642 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,880 record the conversations? How does it work logistically? A little 643 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:53,400 bit of both. 644 00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 5: Bill. I always ask their permission, is it okay if 645 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,279 I record this? I want to make I'll ask you 646 00:32:58,359 --> 00:32:59,720 that are okay if I record this? I want to 647 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,000 make sure I get it right, And most people will 648 00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:05,039 send sure, no problem. Some people say I'd rather you're 649 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:07,119 not record it, and then that takes all. I'll take 650 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,799 furious notes. Then I've also found that some people, if 651 00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:13,400 I'm recording it, they're really not comfortable opening up. Okay, 652 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,599 we're wondering about that. Yeah, yeah, So I'll record our 653 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,039 initial conversation, and then if I talk to them again 654 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,720 following up, I'll say, hey, this time, I'm not going 655 00:33:21,759 --> 00:33:23,559 to record it. I'm just going to take notes as 656 00:33:23,599 --> 00:33:26,880 that okay, And I'll find then the second go round 657 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,799 they'll maybe open up a little more and probably like 658 00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:32,160 you guys. I've also got apps on my phone that 659 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,839 I can record a phone call with when I do that, 660 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,400 or I five with them. Will we use that technology 661 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,000 on a smartphone to record the conversation as well with 662 00:33:41,079 --> 00:33:42,279 their permission of course. 663 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,279 Speaker 4: So I am wondering because you end up interviewing so 664 00:33:46,359 --> 00:33:50,880 many people, law enforcement, forensic experts, family and friends, the 665 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,400 suspect and the victim. Do you have the same approach 666 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,039 and interview style for each person you interview or does 667 00:33:56,079 --> 00:33:57,799 it change depending on who you're talking to? 668 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 5: Great question. I would say it changes depending on who 669 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,160 I talk to. I'm not a great interviewer. That I 670 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,599 don't ask, and that I'm not good at asking like 671 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,519 these super good questions. I think for whatever reason, people 672 00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:13,800 are comfortable talking to me. And if you're just and 673 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,159 this probably goes for anything, if you're just listening to 674 00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:20,760 someone actively and interested in what they say and guiding 675 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,000 the conversation in certain directions, people a lot of times 676 00:34:25,079 --> 00:34:27,199 will tell you what you want to know. It might 677 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,320 take a little longer. I found, generally speaking, people are 678 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,280 comfortable and sharing information with me and the work I've 679 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,679 done so far. At least people in law enforcement are 680 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,760 comfortable and confident enough that I'm not going to make 681 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,719 them look bad. I'm not going to take what they 682 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,280 say and spend it in a way to make them 683 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,159 look bad. So they're always typically very willing to share. 684 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,360 There are times, though, when I'll have to follow up 685 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,239 with them with a phone call or via the email 686 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,679 to get clarification, or if I realized there is something 687 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:56,800 they brought up that I didn't follow up on, I'll 688 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:57,679 ask them about that. 689 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 2: Two part question. Do you have a preference between phoneers 690 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,760 or zoom calls and in person interviews? Do you have 691 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,079 a preference for those two approaches in face to face 692 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,159 versus you could be across the state or across the country. Yeah, 693 00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:19,960 I would let's rather do it in person if our 694 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,360 schedules allow. So you know, a book like this, or 695 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,559 for example, the books I wrote in Southwest Virginia out 696 00:35:26,599 --> 00:35:29,719 in the New River Valley past Roanoke, out in that 697 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,960 area for travel purposes, I try and schedule a lot 698 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,360 of my interviews or meetings in a day. Inevitably would 699 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,599 have to do a lot of that by phone. I 700 00:35:38,639 --> 00:35:41,280 think in terms of rapport building, if you're sitting down 701 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,679 with someone, it's a lot easier to have a conversation. 702 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,199 Conversation typically tends to go better, and then you also 703 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,000 pick up on a lot of non verbal jees and 704 00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:54,519 so forth. So yeah, I would prefer in person. Do 705 00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:57,079 you do the interviews? Let's say when you're in Stanton, 706 00:35:57,119 --> 00:35:59,119 you don't live there, you don't have a house there. 707 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,440 Where did you actually do the interviews? You can't talk 708 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,599 about murder in a coffee shop, can you? 709 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 6: I think we know you can talk about murder anywhere, 710 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,000 and we probably do, we do honestly, But how lot? 711 00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:17,920 How do you do it? 712 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,159 Speaker 5: A lot of times a coffee shop. I've had a 713 00:36:20,199 --> 00:36:22,880 lot of meetings at a coffee shop. We talk quietly. 714 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,320 It's funny. I had a meeting recently where there was 715 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,679 a place I wanted to meet with someone, but I 716 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,119 knew the acoustics there were just too quiet. But wouldn't 717 00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:32,920 be able to a lot of times if it's a 718 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,800 noisy restaurant, that actually works well because you're sitting at 719 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,679 le getting close to each other. Yeah. And then really 720 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,400 a surprising number of people are comfortable having me talked 721 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,320 to them, to their whole whole really. Yeah, if these 722 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,480 are retired law enforcement people. I go back to my 723 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,800 first book Under the trustle to Prosecutor Everett Shockling. The 724 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,719 first time I met with him, he invited me to 725 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,840 his house and we sat down in his living room 726 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,599 and talked for about two and a half hours. A 727 00:36:57,639 --> 00:36:59,840 lot of people that would be especially on the law enforcements. 728 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:02,960 Occasionally there's some shadier people I have to talk to 729 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:08,400 these cases, you meanwies. Make sure that's a public place, meeting. 730 00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 2: Them in some bar somewhere. 731 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 4: Around. The book is fantastic. The book is Runaway Groom 732 00:37:16,039 --> 00:37:19,280 by Ron Peterson Jr. It is about the case of 733 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,159 PD Miller in nineteen eighty three in Virginia Shenandoah Valley. 734 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,800 Where can everybody find their copyrn. 735 00:37:27,039 --> 00:37:30,199 Speaker 5: It's available wherever books are sold. About all the Barns 736 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,079 and Noble stores, especially in Hampton Roads, They're all available there. 737 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,400 There's some Barns and Noble that don't carry it, but 738 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,320 they can order it in the next day. Independent bookstores 739 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,400 as well. I was enter a great bookstore in Blacksburg 740 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,039 Books this past weekend, an independent bookstore that carries all 741 00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:50,119 my books. Then, of course Amazon is where a lot 742 00:37:50,159 --> 00:37:52,679 of books are also soldek Stays, So yeah, any of 743 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,639 those outlets. It's available in paperback, in Kendle and ebook 744 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,119 and then it's coming out soon also in the audio 745 00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:02,159 book in the audible format with a great narrator named 746 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,239 Kyle Tate who has narrated by other four books. 747 00:38:05,679 --> 00:38:08,199 Speaker 2: Oh it's funny, I wondered if you've ever thought about 748 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,960 narrating them or is that something you'd rather leave to 749 00:38:11,039 --> 00:38:12,360 a professional narrator. 750 00:38:13,199 --> 00:38:15,679 Speaker 5: Yeah, I thought briefly about doing it, and that was it. 751 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,320 But from the very beginning from my first book, there's 752 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,199 a company that has acquired the audio rights on books 753 00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:24,360 called tan Toward Media, their division of a company called 754 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,239 Recorded Books, who's the largest audiobook production company out there. 755 00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:31,480 So they produced the audio version of books for audible 756 00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:35,360 and for audiobook services. And I said, they use a 757 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,320 narrator called named Kyle Tates. He lives in the Atlanta, 758 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,519 Georgia area and as a professional voice actor and commentator 759 00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:44,119 who just does a great job with it. 760 00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 4: Runaway Groom in stores near you. Ron, thank you so 761 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,079 much for joining us. As always, it is a pleasure. 762 00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 5: Thank you guys. Thank Tristan. Bill was great to catch 763 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,760 up with you, and I appreciate all the help you've 764 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,360 given me over the years. Thanks so much. 765 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,159 Speaker 4: Of course, that is going to do it for this 766 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,400 episode of Mind Over Murders. Thank you so much for listening. 767 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:06,639 We'll see you next time. 768 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 769 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:21,800 Another Dog Productions. 770 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,679 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 771 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit. 772 00:39:29,079 --> 00:39:31,119 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 773 00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:35,599 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 774 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,519 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 775 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 776 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,280 Murders on Facebook. 777 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 778 00:39:47,039 --> 00:39:48,679 Bill Thomas five six. 779 00:39:49,159 --> 00:40:15,079 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder as