Speaker 1: Today, I want to tell you about a journey that
Speaker 1: I've been on for most of my life. Ever since
Speaker 1: I was a kid, I've heard tales of bigfoot and
Speaker 1: wild men while spending time with my friends and family.
Speaker 1: As I grew older and read more about the paranormal,
Speaker 1: my interest in cryptids and other things strange only deepened.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm so excited to share with you what
Speaker 1: I've personally become involved with The Untold Radio Network. The
Speaker 1: Untold Radio Network is a live streaming podcast network that
Speaker 1: airs a new show every day across all podcast platforms, YouTube,
Speaker 1: and more. They have eight different shows on all sorts
Speaker 1: of exciting topics such as bigfoot, cryptids, UFOs, aliens, and
Speaker 1: much more. I even have my own show called Weird Encounters,
Speaker 1: where I talk about all things strange. This is more
Speaker 1: than just a podcast network. It's a community that allows
Speaker 1: me to meet so many amazing people who share their
Speaker 1: stories and experiences with strange. If you're interested in hearing
Speaker 1: more of these stories and learning more about the paranormal
Speaker 1: and cryptids, make sure you check out the Untold Radio
Speaker 1: Network for all kinds of exciting shows. It's free subscribe.
Speaker 1: So what are you waiting for visit www dot untold
Speaker 1: radionetwork dot com today.
Speaker 2: No one, are you reporting? I got a stream going
Speaker 2: on here. Something just kid my dog, something killed your dog?
Speaker 2: My dog. We're flying through there over the tree. I
Speaker 2: don't know how it did it, Okay, damn, I'm really confused.
Speaker 2: All I saw was my dog coming over the fence,
Speaker 2: and the name was dead when you hit the ground.
Speaker 2: I didn't have seen any cars. All I saw was
Speaker 2: my dog coming over the fence. Are you reporting we
Speaker 2: got some wonder or something crawling around out here? Did
Speaker 2: you see what it was?
Speaker 3: It was?
Speaker 2: It was seeing enough. I'm out here looking near the
Speaker 2: window now and I don't need anything. I don't want
Speaker 2: to go outside. Just fight. Hello, get the Boddy out here.
Speaker 2: Let quin on out. There's thought off a bit about
Speaker 2: teching fort nine. I don't know. Easy Ann out there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm booking right, Hey, all.
Speaker 1: Right, folks want to welcome my guest to the show.
Speaker 1: It is author researcher Tom Powell. Welcome to the show, sir.
Speaker 4: Thank you, and retired teacher there you go, the retired
Speaker 4: science teacher. Correct, Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1: Got to throw that in there, so let's start at
Speaker 1: the very beginning. Tom, you and I were talking about
Speaker 1: this right before we hit record. I want to start
Speaker 1: with the Bigfoot stuff. You've got a new book out
Speaker 1: Planet Strange that we're certainly going to get into talking about.
Speaker 1: But let's start in the very beginning where I start
Speaker 1: with most people on the show, what in the world
Speaker 1: got you interested in Bigfoot?
Speaker 2: To begin with?
Speaker 4: As a teacher, I actually ridiculed it. I would do
Speaker 4: a lesson about it on the throwaway day, like the
Speaker 4: day before Christmas vacation. Out here on the West Staff,
Speaker 4: the class has already left for Maui or somewhere, so
Speaker 4: I had to do some kind of thing to keep
Speaker 4: the kids busy out They're all wired on candy. The
Speaker 4: school district did have the old Leonard Nimoy in search
Speaker 4: of a movie that you could legitimately show kids watched
Speaker 4: it and enjoy it. I made some jokes about it
Speaker 4: and used it as an example of pseudo science, just
Speaker 4: a bunch of stories. It's not really science, but it's
Speaker 4: fun to think about what kind of thing kept the
Speaker 4: kids' attention on a tough day. But I did not
Speaker 4: in those days take it seriously. I did read books
Speaker 4: on it, and we had some local people like Peter Burne,
Speaker 4: who were very much of presence in the news. But
Speaker 4: then everything changed in the late eighties, when I moved
Speaker 4: to rural Clackamous County outside of Portland, I found that
Speaker 4: in this rural location there were neighbors of mine who said,
Speaker 4: you know that Sasquatch thing, We actually have that out here,
Speaker 4: So of course I please explain no full well that
Speaker 4: I had ridiculed it for However many years already, one
Speaker 4: thing led to another. I found these people's accounts to
Speaker 4: be credible. In some cases they were sightings. Then I
Speaker 4: saw a little notice on a country store bulletin board
Speaker 4: that had a bulletin by a guy who was researching
Speaker 4: and collecting local sightings. His name was Frank Kineister. I
Speaker 4: took down his number, called him up and said, the
Speaker 4: main thing I'm looking for is some stuff to use
Speaker 4: in my annual Bigfoot lesson. Do you have anything I
Speaker 4: could take in by way of visuals so it's just
Speaker 4: not all talking in a movie. He loaned me some
Speaker 4: track casts and things that not only helped my lesson,
Speaker 4: but it also at that point started to become compelling
Speaker 4: to me. Personally that these people were dead serious about
Speaker 4: what they were describing. They weren't all a youngsters either.
Speaker 4: One guy was a career for service fellow who had
Speaker 4: worked the counter when people came in wide eyed and
Speaker 4: said what they saw while they were out there cutting.
Speaker 4: He followed up on these stories and he found them
Speaker 4: to be credible. So I started collecting them myself. Then
Speaker 4: I got mixed up with Matthew money Maker when his
Speaker 4: site was in its earliest days. He started shooting me
Speaker 4: the local sightings that were uninvestigated. All of a sudden,
Speaker 4: I was at times buried with sightings to investigate, especially
Speaker 4: the days after a Art Bell appearance or something. When
Speaker 4: those days it was just radio. But when art Bell
Speaker 4: would have Moneymaker or one of these other guys on
Speaker 4: Peter burn around, Moorehead or whoever, the website would be
Speaker 4: inundated with fresh sightings, most of them outdated but stillmitted previously.
Speaker 4: So I started going around and talking to these people.
Speaker 4: In some cases they were people in my immediate area.
Speaker 4: One of the most interesting ones was in a small
Speaker 4: town not very far from where I lived, Colton, Oregon's
Speaker 4: about fifteen miles away. These people said, oh, yeah, we
Speaker 4: see them, they take our honey from our bee hives.
Speaker 4: The other thing they do is they raid our apple trees.
Speaker 4: I said, how does that go? They said. We were
Speaker 4: up one morning ready to travel early, having breakfast, sitting
Speaker 4: and watching the sunrise. Here comes out of the woods
Speaker 4: this form across the meadow that we're looking at. It
Speaker 4: stands under the apple tree upright, grabs the apple tree
Speaker 4: with both hands and shake the tree, and all the
Speaker 4: fruit falls off the tree. Two more of these upright
Speaker 4: beings emerged from the woods and gather up as many
Speaker 4: apples as they could carry and disappear into the woods. Curiously.
Speaker 4: When I first bought my property, the next door neighbor
Speaker 4: accused me of stealing his apples. I remember thinking that's
Speaker 4: the craziest thing. Why would I risk getting shot over
Speaker 4: a few pieces of fruit. But then somebody I worked
Speaker 4: with who knew him, had heard this story from him.
Speaker 4: He was complaining about his neighbor stealing his apples. She said, oh,
Speaker 4: I tease with him. She told me this story, and
Speaker 4: I said, why would I steal his two apples? She
Speaker 4: said no. The whole tree got cleaned in one night bing.
Speaker 4: All of a sudden, the hop Cozon in my head
Speaker 4: that he was describing the exact same thing that I
Speaker 4: had encountered in one of these sighting reports. So that
Speaker 4: sort of gave me to understand that it's quite possible.
Speaker 4: I know, I did not take his apple, and there
Speaker 4: was no one else who really had access to his
Speaker 4: property because we're at the end of a small road.
Speaker 4: All of a sudden, it led me to suppose that
Speaker 4: this phenomenon not only seems more real than I ever expected,
Speaker 4: but that it is also more local than I ever expected.
Speaker 1: I think, like most researchers, I started in one camp
Speaker 1: and I've ended up in another camp, and I teeter
Speaker 1: her back and forth on most days. What was your
Speaker 1: approach once you got to the point where you thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is possibly a real phenomenon here, it's possibly people
Speaker 1: are experiencing what they say they're experiencing, and you're looking
Speaker 1: into these reports. Did you start out in a certain
Speaker 1: camp and looking at these things a certain way?
Speaker 4: And how is that for sure? And those were the
Speaker 4: days Rover Krantz was still alive, John Green, Peter Byrne,
Speaker 4: and their message was fairly in line, and that was undiscovered.
Speaker 4: Eight Meldrum was just young, but coming on the scene
Speaker 4: becoming a distinguished voice in his own right, and he
Speaker 4: completely agreed with that message. So in those days, there
Speaker 4: was not a lot of other views that I was
Speaker 4: aware of, but I did come to eventually meet Henry
Speaker 4: Franzoni Rest his soul. We just lost Henry a few
Speaker 4: weeks ago. He was one of the pioneers who was
Speaker 4: able to confirmed what I was experiencing when I started
Speaker 4: seeing reports from credible, serious people who were describing incredible
Speaker 4: things within the context of the Sasquatch mystery, disappearing mind speak,
Speaker 4: nonverbal communication, things that just were not taken curiously by
Speaker 4: the powers that be, The four Horsemen, Green, the hand
Speaker 4: in Krantz, Peter Burne, they were very narrow in there thinking,
Speaker 4: And meanwhile I was uncovering some paranormally inclined descriptions, specifically
Speaker 4: people saying it just disappeared. It looked like a star
Speaker 4: trek being me aboard. It was just gone, standing there
Speaker 4: in the middle of a clearcut. And other guy's that
Speaker 4: it walked behind the tree and it didn't come out
Speaker 4: the other side, so I assumed that it was behind
Speaker 4: the tree. I walked toward the tree, and all of
Speaker 4: a sudden, I got the EBGB. He said, don't come
Speaker 4: one step closer if you know what's good for you.
Speaker 4: Being a kind of a tough, macho dude. Anyway, he
Speaker 4: did walk forward, but he said there was nothing behind
Speaker 4: that tree. There didn't seem to be any other avenue
Speaker 4: for escape. So these are the kinds of things that
Speaker 4: you get a lot. Another one is the mind speak
Speaker 4: that woke me up. I had a camera project of
Speaker 4: my own. I was very much working the flesh and
Speaker 4: Blood angle. I was putting cameras in the woods at
Speaker 4: the promising locations, especially near Mount Rainier. This family had
Speaker 4: a lot of this mind speak stuff happening to them,
Speaker 4: and they didn't really tell me about it for a
Speaker 4: period of months. We had the cameras on their property
Speaker 4: for two years. When they finally came up with the stuff,
Speaker 4: I said, why didn't you tell me this sooner? They said,
Speaker 4: we didn't want me to think we were crazy. So
Speaker 4: people hold back. It appears on some of the stranger
Speaker 4: stuff that they are experiencing, especially when they sense that
Speaker 4: the researcher is of one view. I opened up with
Speaker 4: some of the weirder things that I was experiencing. They said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: we have that too. They had a whole bunch of stuff.
Speaker 4: They take our chickens, they take our rabbits out of
Speaker 4: the hutches. They can work the hatches, the catch on
Speaker 4: the hat, so they have manual decksterity. They seem to
Speaker 4: be most interested in my daughter because she's always on
Speaker 4: horseback and she's always rescuing injured animals. They seem to
Speaker 4: resonate with her empathy toward animals. Another one was in Oklahoma.
Speaker 4: They were recording the freezer. They had an outdoor freezer
Speaker 4: which was getting raided at night. They were sure that
Speaker 4: was because of these sasquatches. They didn't like it one bit.
Speaker 4: They were very afraid of them, and they were concerned
Speaker 4: that the things were messing with the screen window and
Speaker 4: pulling the screen off the window, and they took that
Speaker 4: to mean that thing was trying to get in the house.
Speaker 4: So they actually took a shot at it. They felt
Speaker 4: that they had hit it, so Matthew Moneymaker dispatched a crew.
Speaker 4: This was all in the locals back in the early
Speaker 4: two thousand's, the first book I published. But before they
Speaker 4: got there, there was a rainstorm and all the blood
Speaker 4: washed away. But they felt like they had blood on
Speaker 4: the ground. In hindsight, Matt should have probably told him
Speaker 4: to collect some of the blood. Instead, he said, don't
Speaker 4: touch it, just leave it there. My crew will arrive,
Speaker 4: and well before his crew could arrive, the weather washed
Speaker 4: it away. Even stuff like that has a pattern to it,
Speaker 4: even if it goes back as far as the Native
Speaker 4: American lord. There are some tribes who have a name
Speaker 4: for the Sasquatch that translates literally into he who makes
Speaker 4: the wind blow. So there you go. Now we're getting paranormal. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and tell you that's what's happened to me.
Speaker 1: The more people that I've interviewed over the years doing
Speaker 1: the show, we're over five hundred episodes at this point,
Speaker 1: so many people have so many weird scenarios that happen,
Speaker 1: sometimes while they're having bigfoot activity.
Speaker 4: Sometimes it's right before or right after.
Speaker 1: I used to compartmentalize that I was a police officer,
Speaker 1: so my cop brain puts things into boxes, and I'd say, Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're having weird lights and orbs and all these strange
Speaker 1: things going on, and you've got bigfoot on the property.
Speaker 1: But those things are probably mutually exclusive. But the more
Speaker 1: I've talked to people.
Speaker 4: Over these years.
Speaker 1: It seems less and less that it's mutually exclusive, and
Speaker 1: it all seems to be somewhat connected. Here's the thing
Speaker 1: that I want to ask you. You've done this for
Speaker 1: so many years, and you've been on both sides of
Speaker 1: the fence, so to speak. This is the thing that
Speaker 1: I have a hard time rationalizing my brain, and maybe
Speaker 1: you can help me with this. I'm pretty much in
Speaker 1: the flesh and blood camp. I'm open minded to other things.
Speaker 1: Cliff's a good friend of mine. I know you're friends
Speaker 1: with Cliff. Cliff and I are pretty much in the
Speaker 1: same cloth as far as what we believe about these creatures.
Speaker 1: Yet these strange things happen. So let me ask you,
Speaker 1: how do you deal with this as an investigator and
Speaker 1: a researcher looking into this. If these things are possibly
Speaker 1: more than what we know them to be, there's something
Speaker 1: paranormal or something out of this world that we're not
Speaker 1: connecting here. They're disappearing and all these weird things, yet
Speaker 1: they're doing very flesh and blood things. How do you
Speaker 1: deal with the fact that we could be dealing with
Speaker 1: a paranormal entity here that bleeds in each chickens and
Speaker 1: does all the things that seem to be very flesh
Speaker 1: and blood. How have you been able to deal with
Speaker 1: that in your research? I guess just by a maintaining
Speaker 1: an open mind, be not wasting my time trying to
Speaker 1: change anyone's mind. Trying to convert someone to a different
Speaker 1: way of thinking is usually a fool varrnt. Instead, I
Speaker 1: just say it guys like, hey, do you pursue your angle.
Speaker 1: I'll pursue my angle. Let trade notes.
Speaker 3: Stay tuned for more sasquatch out to sea. We'll be
Speaker 3: right back after these messages.
Speaker 4: At the end of the day about what you're getting.
Speaker 4: Applaud anyone who has the enthusiasm for putting cameras in
Speaker 4: the woods, because I feel it's a low return proposition.
Speaker 4: I think I would almost go so far as to say,
Speaker 4: no bigfoot researcher has ever gotten a persuasive image after
Speaker 4: Patterson and Gimlin, or almost no. I think Paul Freeman
Speaker 4: might qualify. I think Paul's video is legit, But in
Speaker 4: modern times, post two thousand, it seems like they're very
Speaker 4: much aware of our attempts to photograph them. They're very
Speaker 4: much opposed to that. What happens is the cameras are disconnected,
Speaker 4: the cameras are pulled off the tree, the cameras lenses
Speaker 4: covered with leaves, the batteries are drained. The cameras are
Speaker 4: never taken, the cameras are never destroyed, but they're put
Speaker 4: out a service in a way that is most peculiar
Speaker 4: but actually quite consistent. I remember going around with Cliff
Speaker 4: and checking his camera line once. He had about five
Speaker 4: cameras scattered around in the Sandy River drainage. We hit
Speaker 4: all five sites in one day, and at each site,
Speaker 4: as we approached the camera, which wasn't really on a trail,
Speaker 4: but there was a way to approach it that he
Speaker 4: had been using all along. Each time we approached the
Speaker 4: camera there was an X made out of a couple
Speaker 4: of sick great foot sticks, just leaning there in the
Speaker 4: shape of an X. And I said, about the fourth
Speaker 4: time we got to a camera and hey was the X?
Speaker 4: I said, Cliff, are you seeing the is in what
Speaker 4: I go? There's an EX. It's like something is saying
Speaker 4: don't go here. The approach is marked with the cross too.
Speaker 4: And Cliff patted me on the head and said, oh, Tom.
Speaker 4: Trees fall out of the wood patterns don't jump to conclusions. Okay,
Speaker 4: but it's funny how each one of your cameras it's
Speaker 4: almost as if it's marked, what depends on what you're
Speaker 4: looking for. Cliff did not find it compelling, but to
Speaker 4: me it was almost unmistakable. So anyway, there's an example
Speaker 4: of well, just everybody do it their way, and then
Speaker 4: we'll get together at these conferences or over a beer
Speaker 4: and we'll see what we're getting. But once I did
Speaker 4: manage to sit down with Henry friend Zoni, his line was,
Speaker 4: I can't tell you what's going on because it's too strange.
Speaker 4: You got to figure it out for yourself. I finally
Speaker 4: said to him, all right, Henry, here's what I think.
Speaker 4: I know. They know we're coming. They do have communication.
Speaker 4: They are every bit as astute as we are. They
Speaker 4: have the ability to render themselves somehow not seeable when
Speaker 4: they desire. He once again patted Muney, very good job. Yeah,
Speaker 4: we're coming along. So it just went on from there.
Speaker 4: I ran into these horse whisperer types who feel they
Speaker 4: have communication with other animal species. Most of their work
Speaker 4: is done in veterinary circles with trying to determine subtle
Speaker 4: medical horse conditions and things like that, and they feel
Speaker 4: like they can get to the bottom of it with
Speaker 4: a form of communication that is nonverbal. There are writers
Speaker 4: who have investigated this. One of them is Rupert Sheldrake,
Speaker 4: who's an English author. He has several books on interspecies communication.
Speaker 4: He makes a very compelling case. These horse whisperer types
Speaker 4: usually say I can do other animals. So then I
Speaker 4: put one of them, Steve Fredericks, to work on our
Speaker 4: camera site. I asked Steve to ask them to please
Speaker 4: step in front of the camera. He came back to
Speaker 4: me and he said, all right, I did what she said.
Speaker 4: They didn't seem to like what I was asking for,
Speaker 4: but I did convey the message. Again, no way to
Speaker 4: confirm this stuff. It's all juju. It's wu total wu.
Speaker 4: Less than forty eight hours after Steve did this, we
Speaker 4: got our best camera image in two years. It was
Speaker 4: more of a shadow profile than a full on image.
Speaker 4: But without telling the residents what I was doing by
Speaker 4: way of putting a communicator to work, I did not
Speaker 4: mention that to Alan in April the residence. Less than
Speaker 4: forty eight hours later, they called back and said, we
Speaker 4: just got an image. So I sped up to the site.
Speaker 4: I looked at the image. I knew that it was
Speaker 4: not compelling, but it was decent head and shoulders. It
Speaker 4: was almost like a shadow puppet, but it was just
Speaker 4: the shadow moving across the beam of the infrared illuminator.
Speaker 4: Then I went back to Steve Fredericks and I said, Steve,
Speaker 4: I want you to ask for a bone. And he said, oh, Tom,
Speaker 4: And I said, just do it, Steve. He's okay, I'll
Speaker 4: do it. I did not tell Alan. In April. Once again,
Speaker 4: within forty eight hours, they called me up on the
Speaker 4: phone and said, we just got a bone at the
Speaker 4: foot of the camera tree. It looks like about a
Speaker 4: shape of a coffee saucer. It's very thick. I went
Speaker 4: up and got the bone. I took it to a
Speaker 4: wild life biologist. He said, it's a bird bone, but
Speaker 4: I do not know what kind of bird. It must
Speaker 4: be a very large bird given this coffee saucer shaped
Speaker 4: disk of bone. Then I did some research and I
Speaker 4: found a farmer near me who was raising emrus and
Speaker 4: I showed the bone to him and he pulled out
Speaker 4: a reference text and he was able to match it
Speaker 4: perfectly with the breastbone of an emu. So I went
Speaker 4: back to Allen in April. I said, do you have
Speaker 4: any EMUs around here?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: I said, are there any nearby? And I said, yeah,
Speaker 4: my dad raises EMUs. Well, where does he live five
Speaker 4: miles away? Do you have any explanation for how an
Speaker 4: emu bone got from your dad's house five miles away
Speaker 4: to hear? I said, no, we don't. To me if
Speaker 4: you connect the dot, I feel like we're being played with.
Speaker 4: They're just toying with us. They're not going to give
Speaker 4: us what we asked for. It was an audacious thing
Speaker 4: to ask for a bone. But when I finally went
Speaker 4: back to Steve Fredericks and told him the whole story,
Speaker 4: because I didn't tell Steve we were getting results because
Speaker 4: I didn't want to feed the flames with anything. That
Speaker 4: what made him double down on his claims of communication.
Speaker 4: So I kept him out of the loop until finally
Speaker 4: we ended the project and I told him everything, and
Speaker 4: he said, he hit himself on this on the side
Speaker 4: of the head, and he said, I never actually said
Speaker 4: a sas watch bone. So interestingly, but curiously, it's almost
Speaker 4: like they're playing us for fools, but they're also to
Speaker 4: use a phrase. They're throwing us a bone. They're not
Speaker 4: giving us what we want, but they're just giving us
Speaker 4: just enough to have a sense of humors about what
Speaker 4: they're doing. I just keep coming back to that they're
Speaker 4: not going to dig up one of their relatives and
Speaker 4: provide us with part of their remains anymore than we're
Speaker 4: gonna do that, But they will keys us, toy with us,
Speaker 4: test our ability to think the next thought. Let's talk about.
Speaker 1: Something that has really fascinated me through my journey with
Speaker 1: Bigfoot is habituation situations where people have repeated experiences. I
Speaker 1: guess if it's habituation, it's more of a personal thing.
Speaker 1: They're coming back to the same properties over and over.
Speaker 1: How many times have you dealt with that over the
Speaker 1: course of your research and what have you found or
Speaker 1: have you found anything that's stuck out to you over
Speaker 1: the years about habituation situations, whether it be with the
Speaker 1: Sasquatch or the people that are experiencing it Alan.
Speaker 4: In April Hoyt, the people I was talking about with
Speaker 4: the cameras were the first people that I was able
Speaker 4: to pick their brain, and they were definitely having repeat encounter.
Speaker 4: They had some logging going on in their immediate vicinity,
Speaker 4: and the reason they came clean with the bigfoot activity
Speaker 4: they were having was because they were hoping to somehow
Speaker 4: save enough of the woods that these creatures wouldn't disppear,
Speaker 4: because they rather enjoyed the interaction and they understood it
Speaker 4: to be harmless. Even though they had kids, they were
Speaker 4: willing to accept some livestock depredation losses because they were
Speaker 4: very interested. They felt that there were three generations of them.
Speaker 4: They called it Grandpa, Mom, Pop, and Junior. They had
Speaker 4: seen three different sizes of bigfoot, and they attributed them
Speaker 4: all to the same family. They lived very close to
Speaker 4: the woods, very blue collar. There was nothing affluent about
Speaker 4: their lifestyle. That's the pattern. But if you got somebody
Speaker 4: out there living in a mc mansion with a lot
Speaker 4: of recreational vehicles and affluent lifestyle, they don't seem to
Speaker 4: have as much of the ongoing experience as the people
Speaker 4: who are just living in the woods in much more
Speaker 4: unassuming circumstances. Alan and April were definitely of that guilt.
Speaker 4: I couldn't help but feel that the Sasquatches had taken them,
Speaker 4: I don't know, not really under their wing, into their
Speaker 4: trust because they weren't trying to shoot at them, they
Speaker 4: weren't trying to capture them and trap them. They did
Speaker 4: consent to my camera work, but they would always abandon
Speaker 4: the activity location when I put a camera there, So
Speaker 4: we were moving their cameras all over the property, chasing
Speaker 4: the activity. And that is also a bit of a pattern,
Speaker 4: is that if you put cameras out there, it's probably
Speaker 4: a deal breaker rather than something that's going to bear fruit.
Speaker 4: So I tell people to maybe try not doing the cameras,
Speaker 4: or get rid of the cameras for a while and
Speaker 4: see if the activity returns. It seems two thing out
Speaker 4: when you put out cameras, and if you get rid
Speaker 4: of the cameras, then after a while they come back.
Speaker 4: It does seem over and over again that they don't
Speaker 4: like the idea of the cameras. The people in Oklahoma
Speaker 4: who didn't like the activity, I was there for a
Speaker 4: conference and I met one of them. They said, yeah,
Speaker 4: we still have it, and what do you think we
Speaker 4: should do. I don't want them around. I'd rather they
Speaker 4: just I find them to be a menace to my family.
Speaker 4: I said, in my experience, that brings things to a screeching.
Speaker 5: Oh.
Speaker 4: I never heard back from them about how it all went,
Speaker 4: but I have given that advice a few more times
Speaker 4: is if you don't want it, put out cameras, but
Speaker 4: if you want them to come around, you might take
Speaker 4: it easy on the cameras. They're not starving. Food is
Speaker 4: not of critical importance. I find that if one wants
Speaker 4: to habituate them that you leave out trinkets, flowers, feathers
Speaker 4: and things seem to manifest most frequently at trail junctions,
Speaker 4: but sometimes near a building out behind the barn. So
Speaker 4: there was one place down in Cotty Grove where they
Speaker 4: were having repeat activity, and we started putting out. First
Speaker 4: it was little trinkets, then it was colored rocks. So
Speaker 4: then we started playing tic tac toe. We put some
Speaker 4: cedar sticks in the shape of a little hashtag tictac toeboard.
Speaker 4: We left two piles of rocks, each of a different color,
Speaker 4: and we put our first rock on the corner spot,
Speaker 4: and then darned if a rock didn't come back on
Speaker 4: the other corner and two or three moves into it.
Speaker 4: Rather than adding another rock, they moved one of arm.
Speaker 4: I was like, wait a minute, that's not how this
Speaker 4: game is, but we were actually getting some response to
Speaker 4: this kick tack toe business. Again, we were taking great
Speaker 4: pains to make sure that it wasn't the local residency,
Speaker 4: that no one was playing games with us, but you're
Speaker 4: never one hundred percent sure. Then we started putting out
Speaker 4: scrabble pieces and spelling words. One of the words that
Speaker 4: we spelled a short phrase, are you there or are
Speaker 4: you coming around? We came back the next day there
Speaker 4: were the scrabble pieces that said why three s, but
Speaker 4: the three was turned around so that it functioned like
Speaker 4: an e. All this suddenness they can read and there
Speaker 4: you know, there are some very fun things to do
Speaker 4: that don't cost you anything, and they may bear more
Speaker 4: promising result than a bunch of expensive cameras and listening equipment.
Speaker 4: It does seem that sound that they're okay with. They'll
Speaker 4: make noises, they'll allow you to audio tape them. But
Speaker 4: video film deal breaker.
Speaker 1: There's something else that's always interested me. I want to
Speaker 1: get your thoughts on this is these tracks I have
Speaker 1: found single tracks on our property. I've found multiple tracks
Speaker 1: on our property, but these single track finds that people
Speaker 1: have often I've even explained it done some follow up
Speaker 1: videos with people. Sometimes it's just as simple. This part
Speaker 1: of the substrate is moist after rainfall because it's lower
Speaker 1: than this. If something steps six inches over here, it's
Speaker 1: not going to leave a track. But there are documented
Speaker 1: cases in the past that I've talked to people that
Speaker 1: have seen these trackways that are in the middle of
Speaker 1: a field.
Speaker 4: Sometimes there's snow on the ground.
Speaker 1: These trackways go on and then they just seemed to
Speaker 1: vanish or stopping into the mid track. Can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about what you've experienced or have you
Speaker 1: experienced that in your research and what do you make
Speaker 1: of that.
Speaker 4: Back in the early nineties when John Green was around,
Speaker 4: he told me of situations like that where the track
Speaker 4: just abruptly and the assumption was at the time that
Speaker 4: they were very astutely backing out of the situation by
Speaker 4: stepping in their own tracks backwards, backing up. That seemed
Speaker 4: like a reasonable possibility. One thing that had been seen
Speaker 4: by a guy in Colorado He saw a sasquatch that
Speaker 4: was brushing its tracks with a branch, presumably to eradicate
Speaker 4: them so they know they leave track, was his conclusion.
Speaker 4: He was also aware of his situation where he felt
Speaker 4: the female presumably female overstep the young track in order
Speaker 4: to obscure it, in other words, covering up the youngsters
Speaker 4: tracts with her own and.
Speaker 3: Stay tuned for more sasquatch out to sea. We'll be
Speaker 3: right back after these messages.
Speaker 4: Now, grizzly bears do that. We are told by guys
Speaker 4: like Rick Bass, who researched the grizzlies up in Montana
Speaker 4: near Libby. He says, Oh, yeah, they are aware of
Speaker 4: their tracks and they know to be careful about leaving
Speaker 4: them in situations where you're close to civilization residential establishment. Yes,
Speaker 4: wildlife biologists will corroborate some of that with other species.
Speaker 4: But in my view, when it comes to the sasquatch
Speaker 4: and the single tracks, that's a calling card. They know
Speaker 4: very much they're doing it for whatever reason, they're leaving
Speaker 4: that track for one to find. I think it is
Speaker 4: axiomatic among a lot of the researchers that I have
Speaker 4: been involved with that they know that you're looking for them.
Speaker 4: In other words, while we stalk them, they stalk us.
Speaker 4: So it is a two way street. They are aware
Speaker 4: of guys like myself, Cliff whoever, going around and skulking
Speaker 4: about in their habitat. Why they leave a track for
Speaker 4: us to find? Sometimes I don't know. But in some
Speaker 4: cases I found that it is so conspicuous and so
Speaker 4: perfect that it looks deliberate. I can't get inside their
Speaker 4: brain and know what they're doing, but I think they're
Speaker 4: just basically saying, take that, bastard, figure it out. Maybe
Speaker 4: it's a sense of humor, but I do think in
Speaker 4: some cases these single tracks especially are done as a
Speaker 4: calling card, indicating and tell playfulness, awareness of the researchers
Speaker 4: that are pursuing them.
Speaker 1: There seems to be a common theme with that with sasquatch.
Speaker 1: The more I get into it, the deeper I go.
Speaker 1: One more question before we move into Planet Strange, your
Speaker 1: latest book and talk about that, I want to talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about woodknocks, because this is something that
Speaker 1: I've moved around on myself.
Speaker 4: I've talked to people that believe that.
Speaker 1: Actually I've talked to a couple of people who claim
Speaker 1: to have witnessed Bigfoot making these sort of sounds with
Speaker 1: their mouth and not hitting a tree with a stick
Speaker 1: or a ball bad. Of course they don't have bats
Speaker 1: in the woods. I'm pretty much moving in that direction
Speaker 1: because I've heard wood Knox a couple of times here
Speaker 1: on our property, and I've also heard them while I
Speaker 1: was up on expedition in Radium, BC, Canada last year.
Speaker 1: What is your take on the woodknox? Do you think
Speaker 1: it's plausible that these things are coming from their mouth
Speaker 1: and they're not using rocks or sticks to hit trees?
Speaker 4: Very definitely, simply because when you in the wood knocks,
Speaker 4: when they're moving around in the woods, they're always perfect.
Speaker 4: But when you try to make them yourself, you realize
Speaker 4: that you have to find the right tree, and you
Speaker 4: definitely have to have the right stick in order to
Speaker 4: get a nice resonating knock. And almost every stick you
Speaker 4: pick up on the ground is too soft and partially
Speaker 4: rotten to make a good knock like a Louisville slugger would.
Speaker 4: So there's one problem is they're too perfect as they
Speaker 4: move around when one tries to emulate those knocks. The
Speaker 4: only way you can do it reasonably is Number One,
Speaker 4: pick the right size tree. Cedar seems to be the best.
Speaker 4: Have just the right stick. A nice dry hickory baseball
Speaker 4: bat does work best. Two problems though, Number One, it's
Speaker 4: bad for the tree. It damages the tree to be
Speaker 4: hitting the canbium like that. I don't think the sasquatcher
Speaker 4: are whacking the trees now. Back in the day in
Speaker 4: the nineties, when I was putting cameras at Alan in
Speaker 4: Aprils and investigating the habituation site, I sat there all
Speaker 4: night with a baseball bat, knocking on a tree. Always
Speaker 4: three knocks, three knocks, three knock. Did that until four
Speaker 4: thirty in the morning. I drove home, barely able to
Speaker 4: make it with exhaustion. As soon as I got home
Speaker 4: to my house and got out of the car, the
Speaker 4: sun just barely coming up over the horizon. Five in
Speaker 4: the morning. I got on my car, I slammed my door,
Speaker 4: and from the woods in the back of my property
Speaker 4: came three perfect knocks. Clearly they were toying with me.
Speaker 4: But how that communication happened between Allan and Aprils one
Speaker 4: hundred miles away. I'm making tree knocked all night and
Speaker 4: then I get home and there's three knocks. Did they
Speaker 4: follow me home? I had one person who said, no, Tom,
Speaker 4: they went into the orb phase and they got in
Speaker 4: your car and they rode home with you. Anyway, that's
Speaker 4: how the Whoop people would stay. But yes, definitely the knocks.
Speaker 4: I'm not being done with a stick. And if one
Speaker 4: takes a pair of gloves, he gloves work the best,
Speaker 4: and cut your hands. Then make a circular or oval
Speaker 4: shape with your lips, open mouth, and you clap your
Speaker 4: hands together in front of your open mouthed cavity. You
Speaker 4: can make a very good tree knock. But it does
Speaker 4: help to have really thick, meaty hands or a pair
Speaker 4: of thick gloves like ski gloves. But it works. So
Speaker 4: why would one carry this stick around when you didn't
Speaker 4: need to. I'm absolutely convinced that it's a vocal feat
Speaker 4: that they're doing. Definitely they're not whacken trees, no way, nohow.
Speaker 4: I know I'm going to be grabbing some gloves out
Speaker 4: and practicing that when we get off of the podcast
Speaker 4: right to see if I can do it. Gloves work better.
Speaker 4: You can't do it with your hands. You got to
Speaker 4: do it right in front of your lips, and I
Speaker 4: not just smack your mouth with your hands as you're
Speaker 4: coming to get something like that right there.
Speaker 1: I'm definitely going to learn how to do that. Speaking
Speaker 1: of Strange, let's get into Planet Strange. Now, this isn't
Speaker 1: you're runner the Mill Bigfoot book. There's all kinds of
Speaker 1: things in this book. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about the synopsis of the book. What made you write
Speaker 1: this book at this point in time in your life?
Speaker 4: First of all, because I got three books that treat
Speaker 4: the Bigfoot subject in different ways. So I think I've
Speaker 4: said about all I have to say about that project.
Speaker 4: So this one, my fourth book, is a departure from that.
Speaker 4: Although Bigfoot makes mention on the first page in that,
Speaker 4: I offer that the thing that bothered me the most
Speaker 4: about the Sasquatch phenomenon is where do they go when
Speaker 4: they want safe haven? We find these teepee like structures
Speaker 4: in the middle of the woods, but there's just no
Speaker 4: way know how those provide any means of a meaningful shelter.
Speaker 4: They seem like markers, but they're not domiciles or anything
Speaker 4: like that. It's maybe looks like a tpee without the
Speaker 4: ide covering or something. How's anyone going to get in
Speaker 4: out of the weather that way? And these Native American
Speaker 4: sources I got with say, yeah, idiot, they go underground.
Speaker 4: So then I started looking into this idea of this
Speaker 4: subterranean realm, this place where the Sasquatch emanate from first,
Speaker 4: we just suppose that it was caves and so forth,
Speaker 4: But then when you overlay it with what people are
Speaker 4: running into in the UFO phenomenon, they're also of the
Speaker 4: feeling that in some cases they see the UAPs or
Speaker 4: whatever they call them these days, coming out of the water,
Speaker 4: coming out of the ground. So it got me wondering
Speaker 4: about just how sophisticated this underground realm could be. So
Speaker 4: that is really what the book addresses in a nutshell,
Speaker 4: but each chapter goes into a different aspect of why
Speaker 4: or how or when these underground citadels were established. I
Speaker 4: basically conclude that powerful entities came to this planet one
Speaker 4: hundred thousand years ago approximately and established themselves subterranean on
Speaker 4: this planet. They still reside here. Not every UFO comes
Speaker 4: from across the galaxy, but they are emanating from within
Speaker 4: the planet. The only other possibility is that the planet
Speaker 4: itself is alive and it is generating these paranormal phenomena.
Speaker 4: But either the planet itself is alive or there are
Speaker 4: living beings that dwell within the planet. And since it's
Speaker 4: hard for me to imagine how a planet can be
Speaker 4: alive and intelligence, I end up with the view that
Speaker 4: there are intelligent beings that have established themselves subterranean. There's
Speaker 4: a hierarchy, and I think that the most powerful entities
Speaker 4: are the ones we ordinarily associate with the Ufoe T phenomena,
Speaker 4: and the Sasquatch, to some extent, do the heavy lifting.
Speaker 4: They are the guardians. They watchful eyes on the planet,
Speaker 4: but they do not call the shots. There is a
Speaker 4: more powerful set of entities that direct the Sasquatch. Not
Speaker 4: all Sasquatch oblige them with their cooperation, and in many
Speaker 4: cases the surface traveling Sasquatch are either escapees who have
Speaker 4: just left the underground relemance that I'm tired of being
Speaker 4: a lackey, I'm out of here, or maybe they are
Speaker 4: allowed time off to just go around and cruise the
Speaker 4: surface before they got to get back to work subterraneum. Curiously,
Speaker 4: when the Sasquatches are cited in Oregon, it's almost always
Speaker 4: its scenic places, crater lay, parts of a cascade, mountains,
Speaker 4: a pretty mountain lake. Henry Franzoni used to say, I
Speaker 4: got no problem with the idea that they're just on vacation.
Speaker 4: They got the time off and they're just trucking around
Speaker 4: just like we would. Gotta love the way Henry thought.
Speaker 1: I interviewed him last August on the show, and then
Speaker 1: just a couple of months later, his book came out
Speaker 1: and I went to the mailbox and there was a
Speaker 1: signed copy with a special note from Henry in the book.
Speaker 1: He is definitely one of the great voices that has
Speaker 1: gone from this community and this discourse.
Speaker 4: His newest book is called Failing in a Cooler Way,
Speaker 4: Why I Never Found Bigfoot. I really recommend that book
Speaker 4: to anybody who wants to delve into a paranormal author
Speaker 4: who gets as far out there as perhaps anyone has yet.
Speaker 4: It was definitely a mentor of mine. He did not
Speaker 4: necessarily lead me into the paranormal, but he validated my
Speaker 4: observations and suspicions when I started realizing that there is
Speaker 4: a paranormal aspect to the Sasquatch. It maybe that they're
Speaker 4: twentying with us, They're tricking us. They have tricks up
Speaker 4: their sleeve, the likes of which are difficult to completely understand.
Speaker 4: But they're very good at tricking and trapping us even
Speaker 4: while we're doing the same to them. And Henry was
Speaker 4: the first one to encourage me to develop that thought.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had so many strange experiences, a lot of
Speaker 1: which he shared during that episode. If you guys missed
Speaker 1: that episode, I'm actually going to re air it in
Speaker 1: Henry's honor in the next week or so. I'm already
Speaker 1: working on and putting that together. It was episode originally
Speaker 1: three forty seven of the show from last August, so
Speaker 1: you guys keep an eye on that. I'll be dropping
Speaker 1: it over the next couple of weeks for Henry.
Speaker 4: Let me ask you this. You talk about in your book.
Speaker 1: You touch on the idea that some of these ancient
Speaker 1: structures were built using advanced technology. Is there any evidence
Speaker 1: that you found to be the most compelling for that theory?
Speaker 4: Definitely the pyramids. There is no way the Egyptians built
Speaker 4: those pyramids. The pyramids were located in Egypt because of
Speaker 4: something having to do with the centers of land masses
Speaker 4: and the powers that the earth contains. But a bunch
Speaker 4: of Egyptians who did not even have wheels could not
Speaker 4: have moved fifty ton blocks. In some cases, the blocks
Speaker 4: removed five hundred miles. Those are the blocks that make
Speaker 4: the center of the pyramid, which is built in such
Speaker 4: a way that it does not bear the way of
Speaker 4: the surrounding structure. Therefore, the inner section of the pyramid,
Speaker 4: which is built out of red granite from five hundred
Speaker 4: miles away, vibrate independently of the limestone that is, basically
Speaker 4: the other ten million blocks that make up the pyramid.
Speaker 4: There is just no way. The Egyptians, who were little
Speaker 4: more than hunter gatherers at the time, even if they
Speaker 4: had organized society, they didn't have the manpower to do
Speaker 4: that kind of work, nor did they have the motivation
Speaker 4: to do it. And the pyramids were not tombs. No
Speaker 4: mummy or mummified remains has ever come out of a pyramid.
Speaker 4: Those all come from the Valley of Kings. Those tombs
Speaker 4: are decorated and full of ornate and expensive stuff that
Speaker 4: Pharaoh was going to use in the afterlife. None of
Speaker 4: that comes out of the pyramids. The pyramids were power plants.
Speaker 4: Electrical and chemical engineers look at the pyramids today are
Speaker 4: able to identify a means by which that pyramid could
Speaker 4: produce energy. So some very sophisticated group of beings built those,
Speaker 4: And in order to build them, they had to have
Speaker 4: had the ability to move extremely heavy objects with some
Speaker 4: sort of I don't know what anti gravity, sound vibration.
Speaker 4: There are different ideas about how that was done. But
Speaker 4: the pyramid phenomenon as it exists worldwide in Central America
Speaker 4: and Mexico, Central Europe, there are pyramids all over the place.
Speaker 4: They predate who still don't have the capability to build
Speaker 4: those pyramids, nor do we have the motivation to do that.
Speaker 4: How they were done in ancient times. Really, I think
Speaker 4: is just one example of how a very powerful group
Speaker 4: of entities put some structures on this planet for purposes
Speaker 4: that we are just barely beginning to understand. Maybe it's been.
Speaker 1: Your research into Bigfoot, maybe it was writing this book,
Speaker 1: But is anything that you've done over the last several decades,
Speaker 1: and all the research that you've done into Bigfoot, in
Speaker 1: some of these other non human entities that are more
Speaker 1: than likely here on Earth with us right now, has
Speaker 1: it changed your personal views on the nature of reality
Speaker 1: and maybe even human vanity's place in the universe.
Speaker 3: Stay tuned for more sasquat chat to see we'll be
Speaker 3: right back after these messages.
Speaker 4: Yes, in that I think we were of course put here.
Speaker 4: So this creation idea that Genesis and everything I grew
Speaker 4: up as a Catholic school kid, and we were told
Speaker 4: that God made Adam and then Eve from one of
Speaker 4: his bones, and the angels are from up there and
Speaker 4: the devils are down there, but they know each other.
Speaker 4: As preposterous as all that seemed to me in my
Speaker 4: teenage young adult years, it is interesting how so much
Speaker 4: of that scripture can be interpreted similarly to what the Sumerians,
Speaker 4: the Egyptians, the Indians as in India the subcontinent. They
Speaker 4: all have these creation myths. They all have this view
Speaker 4: that we can from within the earth. Almost every Native
Speaker 4: American tribe describes their origin as being from that. We
Speaker 4: naked from within the earth, and we were put here
Speaker 4: then left to our own devices by a group of
Speaker 4: entities that still checks in Anathasi. Same thing. They came
Speaker 4: from somewhere within the earth, according to their creation myth,
Speaker 4: and then they return to the earth. And that is
Speaker 4: why the Anisazi are not around today. Now anthropologists are
Speaker 4: going to dispute that and go, nah, they move out.
Speaker 4: They went to Mexico and it's okay, but they built
Speaker 4: a whole bunch of stuff and then just walked away
Speaker 4: from it shortly after it was done over and over again.
Speaker 4: These bits of information, always unverifiable, seemed to point to
Speaker 4: some kind of subterranean realm.
Speaker 1: It definitely sounds like a fascinating subject that most people
Speaker 1: would want to get into. Tell us where we can
Speaker 1: find the book. Where's the best place for him.
Speaker 4: To go and get it? I guess just Amazon. I
Speaker 4: hate to give Jeth Bezels any more money than he's
Speaker 4: already got, but he's got a great distribution network, and
Speaker 4: there it is on Amazon Planet strained, it's on Barnes
Speaker 4: and Noble. They're pretty big in their own right, but
Speaker 4: they're not Jeff Bezos. Hangar one is the name of
Speaker 4: the publisher AAR in Minneapolis, Minnesota. As you well know,
Speaker 4: the cooba there is Doug Hicheck. I don't know whether
Speaker 4: she mails out individual copies, but I can't possibly keep
Speaker 4: enough books around here to be sitting there mailing amount
Speaker 4: of people one at a time. I guess I just
Speaker 4: have to play ball with Amazon, Barnes and Noble. I
Speaker 4: do try to get the books into the hands of
Speaker 4: independent bookstores, so that's a bit of a campaign of mine.
Speaker 4: But the book has only been out since late June.
Speaker 4: The distribution is still pretty limited, but we're worrel all
Speaker 4: the time. I'm really happy with this publisher hanger one
Speaker 4: a Doug and his son Alex. I check they're really
Speaker 4: one hundred percent behind these paranormal topics. Baby. When it
Speaker 4: comes to this Planet's Strange, it's paranormal plus.
Speaker 1: I'll make it easy for you guys. All the links
Speaker 1: will be right there in the show notes. All you
Speaker 1: got to do is click the link and get your
Speaker 1: copy of Planet Strange right now. Tom Powell, thanks so
Speaker 1: much for coming on the show man. I've had a
Speaker 1: blast talk of to you. Pleas was all mine.
Speaker 4: Good luck with your podcast. I will invite people to
Speaker 4: if they feel like they have something or got a question.
Speaker 4: I will take email. I don't check it every day,
Speaker 4: but it's Ehom dot pow e l at yahoo dot com.
Speaker 4: So it's Tom dot pwell, but you better remember the
Speaker 4: eight and Tom it's the Welsh spelling. Thanks Brian, nice
Speaker 4: talking to you. Look forward to hearing from you again.
Speaker 5: Say you don't gotta go home, but you can't stay
Speaker 5: and I don't want to be alone.
Speaker 6: World up it Try this chart.
Speaker 5: That chart everything came right back, right back the joy
Speaker 5: for me.
Speaker 6: Joy stay right there come it right away. Snass still
Speaker 6: Star games says, says, Stay still names games and games.
Speaker 6: Stasssts things, stems James