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Are you feeling lucky? 26 00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:59.000 No, We're just necessary Foid Wren My long eighteen plus 27 00:00:59.039 --> 00:00:59.960 terms and conditions plus you want. 28 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:11.439 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 29 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:14.599 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 30 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:20.760 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker, DTK. 31 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:25.480 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 32 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.680 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 33 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:33.200 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 34 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:46.959 Good evening. In Murder in a Sundown Town, author Alexandra 35 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:50.879 Kitty looks at the shocking nineteen sixty eight homicide of 36 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:54.040 Carol Jenkins, a sweet and resilient twenty one year old 37 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:56.439 woman stabbed in the heart on her first day on 38 00:01:56.519 --> 00:02:01.719 the job selling encyclopedias in Martinsville. In what seemed to 39 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:05.280 be an easily solved homicide turned into a four decade 40 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:10.719 cold case and became a tragic story about racism, sexism, gossip, 41 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.240 and walls of silence. It is a case of injustice 42 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:18.479 and persistence that still leaves as many questions as answers. 43 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:22.400 In an age of both true crime fascination, and modern 44 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:26.560 social politics holding equal attention. This book looks at an 45 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:30.280 old case in a contemporary light, from the clues to 46 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:35.560 its racial and gender politics, investigation, resolution, and cultural impact. 47 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:38.719 The book takes an in depth look at a young 48 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:43.000 woman's frightening last hours and why Carol's case is as 49 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:46.319 relevant today as it was in the sixties. The book 50 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:49.039 that we're featuring this evening is Murder in a Sundown 51 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:52.840 Town with my special guest, journalist and author Alexandra Kitty. 52 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.240 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 53 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:57.719 this interview. Alexandra Kitty, thank. 54 00:02:57.560 --> 00:02:59.840 You so much for having me Dan, it's great. 55 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:01.319 To be Thank you so much. 56 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:01.599 Well. 57 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:04.919 First off, you talk about in the introduction about your 58 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:07.960 previous books that you've written and that this book is 59 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.680 a significant departure for you. You usually write about journalism. 60 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:16.120 But tell us about what happened in May twenty twenty 61 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:18.199 two this opportunity that came to you. 62 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:21.520 Well, I was looking for a teaching job at college 63 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.639 or a university, because that's what that's my other passion 64 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:28.439 is not just writing books, but teaching and researching. And 65 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:32.000 I just came across this looking for a researcher for 66 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:35.960 a true crime documentary program. Now, I grew up watching 67 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:38.520 true crime, I read true crime books, and I thought, well, okay, 68 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:40.599 I put my resume and they're not going to call 69 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:42.599 me back for an interview, but I'm going to try. 70 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:47.360 They called me back, they said sure, And I didn't 71 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:49.280 have a true crime background. I did write a couple 72 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:51.719 of true crime stories as a journalist, two or three, 73 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:54.759 and I said, sure, I'd love to be a researcher. 74 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:59.560 It's not on camera, and I love reading. I love researching. 75 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:01.919 So I said okay. They said ten weeks, and I said, okay, 76 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:05.759 I'll do ten weeks, and then they kept expanding my contract. 77 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.439 So I went through the whole season of seven months, 78 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.199 and I did eight stories that made it to air. 79 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:17.199 And I really found this fascinating because when you watch 80 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:20.439 it as a viewer, you don't see the tells, you 81 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:23.959 don't see the fit, the process, how you go because 82 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:27.120 it's a lot of work. You're putting out basically a 83 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:31.879 huge book a week on television, although so little goes 84 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:34.079 into it that you see. There's so much of the 85 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:36.839 facts you have to dig out when they do re enactments, 86 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:39.040 what the victim wore on the same the night they 87 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:41.519 were killed. That's what the actor who's playing this person 88 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:43.920 is going to weark the details you have to dig 89 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:47.240 up as a researcher in worms, you have tons of 90 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:49.759 things you have to find. They might be subtleties on 91 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:52.600 the screen. And I said, this is absolutely a most 92 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:54.879 This was one of the best jobs I ever had, 93 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:57.680 and I still say it. It was such a learning 94 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:02.120 experience for me and how true crime of television is 95 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:05.319 put together and people don't give it enough credit. This 96 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:11.000 is grueling one. You're constantly looking for information anywhere you 97 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:14.839 can find it, from an inmate search online to what 98 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:17.120 do's the inside of the house that was the victims 99 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:24.199 killed look like? Everything? Obituaries, news articles, court transcripts, police files, interviews. 100 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:28.439 You're putting so much into a single episode. I thought 101 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:31.680 this is something that I want to explore more, but 102 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.959 as an author, so once I did that, this is 103 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:38.399 probably there's one of the most eye opening experiences of 104 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.319 my life and one of the most best jobs I 105 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:43.160 ever had, because I learned so much on this job 106 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:44.439 that I kind of took on a lark. 107 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.680 Now you talk about this book, It's about the short 108 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:51.560 life and tragic death of Carol Jenkins tell us what 109 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:56.480 it includes, and you talk about resolution and a term 110 00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:57.439 you call the echoes. 111 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:01.519 It's an interesting and heartbreaking case. A young twenty one 112 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:05.839 year old African American woman named Cheryl Marie Jenkins, and 113 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:08.560 who was I would describe as in every woman. She 114 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:12.519 was close to her family, she had a job, she 115 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.120 was well lived in her community, she had a lot 116 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:21.240 of friends, and she was resilient and she was as 117 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:23.879 low risk of a victim as you could be. And 118 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:26.519 yet she was killed in right in the middle of 119 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:29.920 a street in a small town where you know, everybody 120 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:33.439 knows everybody, and everybody's there. And yet what should have 121 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:37.319 been an open and shutcase was left a cold case 122 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:41.480 for decades, and nobody would forget about Carol. I mean, 123 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:46.279 the echoes were here. What happened, the tragedy and the 124 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.439 injustice that happened to kill this case would be you know, 125 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:52.800 people would scream, it would be reopened every few years, 126 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:55.279 nothing would come out of it. It would be called again, 127 00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:59.480 people would demand justice, it would get reopened. And so 128 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:03.120 this was a dance for decades and it didn't seem 129 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:06.720 like this would ever be a closed case. And you know, 130 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:11.680 miraculously there was more of a resolution than what would 131 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:15.199 have been because this was just one of those tragedies 132 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.600 for people demanded answers and they weren't getting any, but 133 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:22.560 people weren't going away, and people kept demanding and demanding. 134 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.040 I mean, even you know, national Press more than once 135 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:27.480 took up the mantle. So well, why don't we have 136 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:31.600 a suspect in custody? I mean, this case was shocking 137 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:34.160 in so many different ways. You know, here's a young 138 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:37.240 woman walking down the street doing her job and literally 139 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:40.199 died of a broken heart because that's how the killer 140 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:41.120 got to them. 141 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:46.639 Let's get to this tragic story. You take us to Rushville, Indiana. 142 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:51.040 You say population sixty two hundred and the proportion of 143 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:54.439 black people is one point five eight percent. Take us 144 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.120 back to nineteen sixty eight and Carol Jenkins a little 145 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.879 bit about her background and how she found herself working 146 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.319 for PF. Callier and Son on the streets trying to 147 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:07.000 sell encyclopedias. 148 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:10.839 So Carol was very, very attractive, a twenty one year 149 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:16.519 old factory worker from Philcal Factors, and she was the eldest. 150 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:21.680 Her mother had remarried and her half siblings all adored her. 151 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:24.680 Her stepfather, a daughter or mother a daughter. She had many, 152 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:28.600 many friends, but she found herself out of work like 153 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.759 many people during a strike at Felco. So she didn't 154 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:34.399 have you know, she needed to pay her bills just 155 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:39.279 like everybody else. So her friend Paula Bradley, well, why 156 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:43.080 don't we sell encyclopedias door to door? That was, you know, 157 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:45.360 a job they could do. So the two of them 158 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:48.720 signed up to do sell encyclopedias, which was something that 159 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:52.679 was not in Carol's background. She wasn't a saleswoman. She 160 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:55.720 was a factory worker, but that didn't need deter her. 161 00:08:55.799 --> 00:09:00.240 So she went with her friend and two other supervisors 162 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.480 for them. The supervisors were white males, her friend Paula 163 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.639 was black. She was black, and then they decided to 164 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:09.440 so she was doing her training and then this was 165 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:12.200 her first night on the job, so they were running late. 166 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.720 They were supposed to go to another town a little 167 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:20.000 further away where they were doing economically better than Martinsville, 168 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:23.120 but since they were running out of time and there 169 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:27.320 was a bad weather, they decided they would go to Martinsville, 170 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:31.639 which was closer. They weren't as well healed choice number one, 171 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:34.440 but this was good enough, so that's where they went 172 00:09:34.759 --> 00:09:39.039 that night. They went to Martinsville and they score them 173 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:42.799 split up, so each sort of took a quadrant and 174 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:47.720 they went door to door selling encyclopedias, and paul went 175 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:51.559 one way and Carol went another way. Paula was rrass. 176 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:56.200 Something happened to Carol and she ran for help and 177 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:58.600 things just went squirl downhill from there. 178 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:03.799 Let's go back because Carol talks to her stepfather earlier 179 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.600 in the evening. There is when they split up and 180 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:10.320 they go into the neighborhoods, it's not yet dark. You 181 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:13.559 say that sundown was seven point fifty one. And before 182 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.720 we go on, let's talk about just briefly, what the 183 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:20.840 term for people that don't know what a sundown town is. 184 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:25.360 A sund downtown is something that's unspoken but very well known. 185 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:31.039 It is small towns which it's very dangerous for African 186 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:37.320 Americans to go after sundown because there's racist elements. There's 187 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:42.919 racist actors who have no qualms about inflicting harm or 188 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:47.080 even killing somebody if there's somebody who's black that comes 189 00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:50.799 after the sun goes down. So that's where the term 190 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:52.399 sundown town comes from. 191 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.639 Now you say that she was proceeding in selling her encsychopedias, 192 00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:00.600 going door to door, and you mentioned that Martinsville, unlike Rushville, 193 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:05.279 has a black percentage population of almost zero. Right, she 194 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:08.159 was going door to door. And where we find the 195 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:12.639 first record of anything happening in contact with police and 196 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:16.279 Carol Jenkins was when she came to the home of 197 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:20.480 the Neils, and that would be Don Neil and Norman Neil. 198 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.000 And you say that don Neil was nineteen year old, 199 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:28.799 nineteen year old man and with his wife Norma. What 200 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:34.000 does Carol say to them in this first encounter with. 201 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:36.320 Them, Well, she knocked on the door and she said 202 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:39.039 there were a couple of people in a car haussling 203 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:42.720 with her. So the Neils went to help. Now I'm 204 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:45.360 going to just back chuck a little. She was already 205 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:49.639 worried about going to Martinsville because her stepfather warned her 206 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:52.279 that this was not a good time to be Her 207 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:56.159 stepfather was very well high school basketball player who had 208 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:59.720 problems in Martinsville. So she was already kind of on 209 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:03.240 ed when she went to Martin's and then there were 210 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:05.840 some a couple of young men in a car who 211 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:08.960 were hassling her, and she felt threatened enough that she 212 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.279 went to the Nails, knocked on their door and was 213 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:14.039 looking for help. Basically that there were these people in 214 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.519 a car and a dark car that were hastling her 215 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:19.879 and she was looking for salvation. So the Nails took 216 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:23.200 her in so they went to look. They called the 217 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:27.960 police and they invited her to stay. They were also 218 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:30.399 very worried about her well being that night. 219 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:32.279 What did police have to say? 220 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:32.879 You say that. 221 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:36.759 There was a police officer that responded, what did he 222 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:41.320 say to Carol and to the nails, Well. 223 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:45.399 He said he investigated, he looked around. There was nothing 224 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:48.679 to see here. It was the bottom line, and they 225 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:52.960 took a patrol car. They looked around and didn't see anything, 226 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:55.919 or said they didn't see anything, so they kind of 227 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:00.639 brushed it off. They weren't that serious about Carol's inserts 228 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.840 and the Nails were enough where they offered her to 229 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:06.000 stay for supper, and she turned them down because she 230 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:08.080 said she didn't want to be a bother. So she 231 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.879 was a very polite young woman who said, who turned 232 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:14.799 down this because usually when you're at that age, you 233 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:17.919 don't want to be a bother to strangers who already 234 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:21.080 went over and beyond. They called the police they went 235 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:25.039 out looking and they made overtures. So they were very 236 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:28.559 very nice young couple, and they tried to help her, 237 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:32.000 and she felt like she was, you know, probably overstaying 238 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.080 her welcome and that she should go and probably that 239 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:38.720 was nothing. So she kind of grabbed their bearings and said, no, 240 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:40.440 it's okay, I'll go in them. 241 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.480 They had also drove her around trying to look for 242 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.200 the rest of her group, or more importantly, one of 243 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.200 her supervisors, didn't they. 244 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:51.759 Yes, and they didn't find either, So don drove her around. 245 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:56.279 They couldn't find anyone from her original group. They didn't 246 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:00.360 see anybody that fit the description, and instead of getting 247 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.559 police to kind of escort her, which they didn't do, 248 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:05.799 she was left on her own. 249 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.440 After that, there was a second to explain to our audience, 250 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.519 there was a second time that an officer arrived and 251 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.000 offered her a ride to meet her friends. 252 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:17.440 And she turned it down. 253 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:20.600 He turned it down. Yes, So she. 254 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:24.200 Was about fifteen blocks away from the Neil residence and 255 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:29.759 it's you right, maybe within thirty minutes there's a torrential 256 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:35.320 downpour of rain. Tell us what the Neils, if I believe, 257 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:38.679 if I'm correct, had given her to help her in 258 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:39.200 this rain. 259 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:43.360 Well, it wasn't the Nils. It was another woman who 260 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:47.440 was in the neighborhood who was worried about Carol because 261 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:51.120 it was raining, who gave her a scarf. So and 262 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:53.519 she told the media, well, I gave her a scarf, 263 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.440 So Carol did have something to kind of protect her 264 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.440 hair by means of a scarf. So this is all 265 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:03.080 that Carol had. There was rain coming down. I mean, 266 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.840 this was probably, you know, one of the worst first 267 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:09.759 days on the job. You're out new job, you're trying 268 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:13.799 to go out, it's rating, you're already scared because somebody 269 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.279 has made threats to you, and somebody saw her being 270 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:21.440 very pleasant. Everybody who the police interviewed, who she went 271 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:25.120 door to door said she was unbelievably outgoing, unbelievably pleasant. 272 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.200 So she was keeping a game face, and she got 273 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.559 a scarf. And that scarf would prove to be a 274 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:34.200 central element of the case, but at the time, it 275 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:37.399 was just something to help Carol not get totally soaking wet. 276 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:39.919 On her way. On her walk, there's a service station 277 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:44.600 owned by Keith Ford and just when she gets past that, 278 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:49.200 witnesses hear a scream tell us about this. 279 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.399 Well, they could account for all of her movements. They 280 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:55.120 knew where she was going pretty much by interviewing everybody. 281 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:59.000 And then at one point there's a scream and somebody 282 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:01.720 had his window open even though it was raining, and 283 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:04.639 he heard the screen and he looked out the window 284 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.840 and he saw this girl staggering, and he ran out. 285 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.879 He didn't have a telephone, but he went to a 286 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:17.000 restaurant across the street to call police because this young woman. 287 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.080 All of a sudden, there was a bleeding young woman 288 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:22.759 in the middle of the sidewalk and that was Carol. 289 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:26.000 So from being worried then and in the middle of 290 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:28.519 the rain, yes, which you think, you know that it 291 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:31.360 would be safe even there, who'd want to go out, 292 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:34.639 But you know, she was obviously targeted. And they took 293 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.799 advantage the torrential rain where there'd be less likely people 294 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:39.679 to see, be able to see, or even be out, 295 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:42.120 and they took that advantage and they killed her. 296 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:45.360 Now there's witnesses, and so you say, by the time 297 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:50.000 the paramedics arrived, her injuries are so severe she succumbs 298 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:50.840 to her injuries. 299 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.480 Her literally her heart was ripped. This is how severe 300 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:56.600 the injury was. I mean she didn't have a prayer. 301 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:02.159 This is somebody who just went with her with such overkill, 302 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:06.680 such violence. By the time the paramedics came there, there 303 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:11.559 was no helping. This was a very quick and brutal homicide. 304 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:17.200 Somebody rabbed her and just thrust an instrument into her chest, 305 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:20.799 ripped her heart, and she had an injury on her chin, 306 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:24.880 and she had her chest injuries on her chest, so 307 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.359 this was no defensive wounds. She didn't have time to 308 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:34.799 fight back or do anything. She was completely completely incapacitated, 309 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.200 and as I said before, she was worried and nervous 310 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.920 that her and Paula wanted to buy some sort of 311 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.160 self defense weapon that they never got a chance to 312 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:48.079 because they didn't have time. If that would have helped 313 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:50.599 her or not, it's timely doubtful because this everything happened 314 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.079 so quickly. 315 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:54.839 You're right that initially when police arrived, they realized that 316 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:59.640 she has not been molested or robbed, and they surmised 317 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:03.720 that her attacker laid in wait, they thought behind a 318 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:08.920 couple of big evergreen bushes. But meanwhile, you tell us 319 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:13.759 you write about how the police respond initially in terms 320 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:17.160 of gathering evidence, and that it would be up to 321 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:21.039 the Indiana State Police to begin the investigation, and much 322 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:25.119 of the forensic evidence would no longer be available as 323 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:26.519 it was heavily raining. 324 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:30.279 It was heavily raining, and bystanders were picking up evidence. 325 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:33.400 They found her notebook, They found a whole bunch of 326 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:37.599 things and without gloves. You have to realize they all 327 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.720 the evidence was kept compromise, not just because of the rain, 328 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:45.599 because the police didn't courting off anything. People were coming 329 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:48.720 up to the police. Here's her notebook, here's her briefcase, 330 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.559 here's her fold I mean, when you think about this, 331 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:54.359 even the killer could have come up and given it 332 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.319 and then accounted for the frame of Prince. We don't know. 333 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.519 This is how badly the scene was contaminating. So you 334 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.880 have the rain working against you. There's no time nobody's 335 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:08.000 trying to cover anything. You have people walking off the 336 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.160 street and giving the things, and you have to take 337 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:12.880 it for granted that that was something that Carol had 338 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.880 or was it the killer. We don't know. Nothing was 339 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:18.759 left where it was supposed to be. So the police 340 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:22.240 had absolutely and this was a town they didn't have homicides. 341 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:24.880 I have to add, they didn't have a big experience 342 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:28.160 dealing with murder. So you have people are police who 343 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:30.839 don't have the experience dealing with murder. You have the 344 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:37.319 weather working against you, you have bystanders contaminating this crime scene. 345 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:42.119 So right off the bats, we're now down to zero 346 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:46.559 in this case. That should have been at least somehow preserved, 347 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:50.480 but nobody preserved anything. And that's DNA that might have 348 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:53.240 been there could have been lost and was lost. Everything 349 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.599 was lost. This is how horrible a crimecy management was 350 00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:57.319 at the time. 351 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:01.519 But police are hopeful because this Dawn Neil had the 352 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.640 presence of mind to take down the license plate number. 353 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:07.839 What happens with this license plate number. 354 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:12.000 Well, she got something off on the my license plate number, 355 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.839 so it wasn't easy fined. And so they did eventually 356 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:20.240 find the car and a car without a similar license plate, 357 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:23.440 and they said this guy didn't have anything to do 358 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:27.000 with the crime. So what was a potentially promising lead 359 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:30.759 did not end up being a laite. So this was 360 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.960 one of those things where they didn't have as much 361 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:36.119 as they should have had. 362 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:40.319 You write about September eighteenth, nineteen sixty eight, a funeral 363 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:43.920 service was held for Carol in Rushville and mourners and 364 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.599 the curious and the disbelieving came all filing past the casket. 365 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:52.240 But at that time, soon after police had no suspects 366 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:54.559 tell us about the treatment from the Neils. 367 00:20:54.759 --> 00:20:58.920 Surprisingly, the Nils Doniel has passed on, but through the 368 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:03.160 decades they maintained what they've maintained. It always been consistent. 369 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:06.400 But they've also also been abused. They had they weren't 370 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:09.240 hiding for a bit because of the threats that because 371 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:12.839 they helped care. So here are two witnesses, the best 372 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:17.000 witnesses the police have, who are being threatened and abused 373 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:21.480 and told to keep wuyet. So there's now something that 374 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.599 pops out. Your witnesses who are more than willing to help. 375 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:26.720 They were trying to help her on the night she 376 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.079 was killed. They were more than helpful to the police. 377 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:31.440 And yet now all of a sudden they are being 378 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:34.759 silenced because they're being threatened with their their lives are 379 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:37.599 being threatened. This was this was a very serious turn 380 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.000 of events that they didn't get protection. So this was 381 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.720 something else. This was another avenue, you know, that could 382 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:46.759 have been completely closed. They did their best, but they 383 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:50.759 were threatened, and you don't expect witnesses to be threatened 384 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:53.480 like this in the town, so you know, people told 385 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:54.319 them to keep quiet. 386 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:57.440 How did police respond in terms of the media, what 387 00:21:57.559 --> 00:21:59.119 did they order and why? 388 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:03.359 Well, that was also sort of messy because the coroner 389 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:08.519 gave an impromptu press conference telling people more than he 390 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:11.599 should have, so there wasn't as much in terms of holdback, 391 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:14.880 so they told him to be quiet. They were not. 392 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:19.079 The police were very happy with outside media. So you're 393 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:21.880 dealing with local media and you know the people and 394 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:24.920 you can present information because those are people you know. 395 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:29.599 But then you had people from larger newspapers coming in 396 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:33.519 asking hard questions that the police didn't couldn't handle, and 397 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:36.759 they didn't like. So there was also a media shut 398 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:39.599 out through this case because a lot of the big 399 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.279 pieces of information that came out of this came from 400 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.359 the big city daily, so they were actually quite helpful 401 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:49.200