Speaker 1: You're listening to something rather than the creator and hosts
Speaker 1: Ken Valente, that is her producer Peer Bower.
Speaker 2: Hello, everybody, this is ken Valante with Something rather Than
Speaker 2: Nothing podcast. I have Rachel Verne on the show, and
Speaker 2: you're gonna hear some enthusiasm in my voice because Rachel's
Speaker 2: new book, Prioritize Play is out. And in case you're
Speaker 2: wondering who Rachel is, Rachel is an artist, play enthusiast
Speaker 2: and creativity height galp based in Detroit, Michigan. She helps
Speaker 2: people prioritize play to overcome creative blocks, better connect with
Speaker 2: themselves and their people, and confidently live big, fulfilling lives.
Speaker 2: When she's not facilitating play workshops or co hosting the
Speaker 2: Chaotic Creatives podcast, she's likely gabbing with Palells over voice
Speaker 2: notes and making a weird paper machine. Yes, Rachel, you're
Speaker 2: perfect for the show. Welcome on.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. Thrilled to be here.
Speaker 2: It's a weird note to connect on, but very rarely
Speaker 2: I've seen people chatting over voice notes, which is something
Speaker 2: that I do, and I think there's nobody in the world,
Speaker 2: not nobody in the world you'd do it, but I
Speaker 2: try to build up the habits and other people because
Speaker 2: my brain processes everything and I'm thinking, if I want
Speaker 2: to talk to you, Rachel, I'm gonna leave you tw
Speaker 2: and a half minutes everything that's in my head and
Speaker 2: leave a voice note for you.
Speaker 3: So yeah, oh, I love it. I love it. I
Speaker 3: feel like it's in today's age when when it's harder
Speaker 3: to connect in person, I feel better connected when I
Speaker 3: can hear my friend's voice and yeah, okay, you know
Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, we could do a phone call, and
Speaker 3: we do those, but sometimes you just want to share
Speaker 3: a little piece of information, share a little thing that happens, okay,
Speaker 3: and I like to do that, be a voice note.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we say it's a little piece of information,
Speaker 2: but it could be a lot, it could be about.
Speaker 2: But I know, I love it. You know. I I
Speaker 2: interview a lot of a lot of artists, guests, and
Speaker 2: you know, authors and those who put out books take
Speaker 2: us into like right now. I always get excited for
Speaker 2: an author. You know, you got your your book out there.
Speaker 2: I saw there was just an absolutely fantastic kind of
Speaker 2: like event that you put on book launch. But with
Speaker 2: everything that's going on right now with prioritized. Play just
Speaker 2: been out for just a week or two. Uh, Rachel,
Speaker 2: tell us about what it's been like, you know, with
Speaker 2: this book out in the world, and what's been going
Speaker 2: on for you lately.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's two weeks today and the day we're
Speaker 3: recording that the book has been out, and it still
Speaker 3: doesn't feel real for me because this is my first book.
Speaker 3: And but I'm getting so much great feedback already, people
Speaker 3: saying that they're loving it, that it is impacting them,
Speaker 3: that they're sharing it with their people, And that's exactly
Speaker 3: what I hope to do. I just want people to
Speaker 3: realize that we are in charge of creating the lives
Speaker 3: that we want, and and Play I think is a
Speaker 3: really approachable tool that we can use to start doing that.
Speaker 2: It's a great it's a great guy. Like I don't
Speaker 2: know what the term like guide, but like just listeners.
Speaker 2: As a book, it's it's it's a beautiful, beautiful and
Speaker 2: inviting book with illustrations and lots of activities and like
Speaker 2: once you hear activities, like a lot of us like
Speaker 2: rush through books, and but like with the activities, like
Speaker 2: in going through it, there's things for me to do
Speaker 2: later there's things that I can do right now, and
Speaker 2: even just what I wrote, like on one of these
Speaker 2: prompts you have, I had this amazing experience when I
Speaker 2: looked at the prompt and I'm like, I don't even
Speaker 2: remember writing that idea down and it was just like
Speaker 2: it was just last week, and I'm like, that's a
Speaker 2: really strange idea. So just the type of thing where as, uh,
Speaker 2: where you're at, we're talking about play here, and of course, uh,
Speaker 2: I'm assuming with us being artistically inclined, like a play
Speaker 2: isn't so abnormal, but but culturally, but culturally I think
Speaker 2: you deal with this right like you talk to people
Speaker 2: right now. Everybody's busy. Everybody's so busy, right like speed
Speaker 2: up of the world, you know, whatever it's moving towards.
Speaker 2: And then artists point to as you do and discover, hey, look,
Speaker 2: you're super creative by you being a human and in
Speaker 2: re engaging, uh with with play, which you know some
Speaker 2: people might find frivolous. But what is what is it
Speaker 2: that you want to do helping folks, you know, and
Speaker 2: whether it's going back in time or finding the activity
Speaker 2: that they want? Why play? And what does what does
Speaker 2: play like lead us? To it, like as far as
Speaker 2: as a human artist.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I started using the language of play because
Speaker 3: I have always been a creative person. But I think
Speaker 3: I buried it to kind of chase these societal expectations
Speaker 3: that I didn't I didn't even realize I was chasing
Speaker 3: sort of like the career milestones and the social milestones
Speaker 3: of of find a partner, get married, by a house,
Speaker 3: mil your lawn, like I think so many of us
Speaker 3: fall into, especially into adulthood. Like you said, we're so busy,
Speaker 3: and it's easy to kind of get caught up in
Speaker 3: the urgency and the like I have to spend all
Speaker 3: of my time being productive. I have to climb the
Speaker 3: career ladder. I have to do these things in order
Speaker 3: to feel successful. And without realizing it, our life is
Speaker 3: kind of passively happening to us. And I think that
Speaker 3: that is what was happening to me and my creativity,
Speaker 3: that I was stifling to kind of chase those milestones,
Speaker 3: even even subconsciously. I don't think it was a conscious effort.
Speaker 3: I the creativity was bubbling up. It was just like
Speaker 3: you gotta let me out. I need to I need
Speaker 3: to have an outlet, and I my story is interwoven
Speaker 3: in the book, and I talk about how I was
Speaker 3: using my career title as my identity without realizing it.
Speaker 3: And I just don't think that humans are meant to
Speaker 3: identify with their jobs. I think we're we're meant to
Speaker 3: identify with the things that light us up and how
Speaker 3: we connect with people. Like we ask kids, what do
Speaker 3: you want to be when you grow up? And they say,
Speaker 3: and we expect adults expect answers like fireman, teacher, engineer, lawyer, whatever,
Speaker 3: But you could ideally expect answers of I want to
Speaker 3: be funny, I want to be a good friend, I
Speaker 3: want to be kind, I want to be creative. But
Speaker 3: the way that our culture is right now, it just
Speaker 3: that's not sort of the mindset that our society encourages.
Speaker 3: And so I explored my creativity and I got to
Speaker 3: a point where I was putting a ton of pressure
Speaker 3: on it to make money. And then I was like,
Speaker 3: I just want to do something for fun for me.
Speaker 3: And when I gave myself permission to do that, my
Speaker 3: life change. I was like, Oh, this doesn't have to
Speaker 3: have any purpose other than making me happy. And when
Speaker 3: I started doing that, I started chasing more things like that.
Speaker 3: But when I started talking about it in this term,
Speaker 3: in the terms of creativity, because like you said, we're artists,
Speaker 3: that's that's kind of how we think. I got a
Speaker 3: lot of pushback from people saying, well, that's easy for you,
Speaker 3: you're creative. I'm not creative. And I just think that
Speaker 3: creativity is a natural human urge or experience. It's just
Speaker 3: that we have such narrow views of what creativity is.
Speaker 3: So people in general might think of creativity as making
Speaker 3: a painting or or dressing in a weird way, but
Speaker 3: it could be making a meal, or it could be
Speaker 3: how you how you invite conversation over dinner. And I
Speaker 3: realized that if I use the language of play, it's
Speaker 3: approachable to more people while still getting at that creativity outlet.
Speaker 3: And that was a long winded answer to your.
Speaker 2: Question, Oh, this is long winded show. This is a
Speaker 2: long winded show. No, like I you know, so I've
Speaker 2: I've talked towards over three hundred episodes on the show,
Speaker 2: and I found it fascinating for me that my interaction
Speaker 2: with artists develops the show and moves it to a
Speaker 2: different way. And one of the pieces it did is,
Speaker 2: like I started as like art and philosophy show right,
Speaker 2: like kick it around. It kind of means like I
Speaker 2: could talk to anybody who's a creative. But the piece
Speaker 2: that I added on like soon there after people ask
Speaker 2: what the show is, I said, it's art and philosophy
Speaker 2: and liberation. And like for me, it was like everybody
Speaker 2: I was talking to, nobody had it all figured out.
Speaker 2: We're humans, but they were they they were liberating themselves
Speaker 2: from an idea from the childhood, negative criticism from the
Speaker 2: partner that said you have to make money this way
Speaker 2: and that like there was this liberation process, which for
Speaker 2: me social activists and such, it's like so important. I
Speaker 2: love being around people where they're like I'm going to
Speaker 2: shed this and I'm going to add that, and uh
Speaker 2: it was a surprise for me to experience that through
Speaker 2: the journey of doing the show. It's like you think
Speaker 2: you create the like what it is and this is
Speaker 2: what it is, and then you're like, oh, since I
Speaker 2: embarked on this, I'm in a different place and I
Speaker 2: got to I got to recognize that talking about like
Speaker 2: when you talked about your shift, it's like, uh, the
Speaker 2: idea of a total transformation and in freeing you were engineering, right,
Speaker 2: weren't you right? So yeah, So like I was reading that,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh gosh, like I can see that.
Speaker 2: I could see the hard not necessarily but like a
Speaker 2: hard tension building up there. I was talking about the
Speaker 2: podcast of my podcast like in its like the sense
Speaker 2: of exploration, and I've listened to your podcast, Chaotic Creatives,
Speaker 2: and I really really enjoy it. I wanted to ask
Speaker 2: you that particular way of going through the issues that
Speaker 2: you talk about, what is the podcast done like as
Speaker 2: a way of you developing your big themes?
Speaker 3: Oh I love I love that you talked about your
Speaker 3: experience with like realizing that liberation came with it too,
Speaker 3: because I feel the same way about about my journey,
Speaker 3: but also about the podcast, where it's like I have
Speaker 3: these ideas and general philosophies on my work or connecting
Speaker 3: with people or art in general, and just through conversations
Speaker 3: with other curious people, and my podcast co host is
Speaker 3: another curious person. Yeah, these through lines emerge and you
Speaker 3: don't even realize that it's happening. But I always go
Speaker 3: back and listen to our episodes so I can be like,
Speaker 3: what did we talk about? Because we it's conversational, we ramble,
Speaker 3: go on a side quest, but there are through lines
Speaker 3: that emerge, and I think that that is that's what's
Speaker 3: so beautiful about conversations. And like the sort of lack
Speaker 3: of expectation that we put on the podcast is just like, hey,
Speaker 3: let's talk about the things that we're going through because
Speaker 3: that's ultimately relatable to people. And I'm sure you've experienced
Speaker 3: that as well, but just through curiosity, there's so much
Speaker 3: learning that can happen in a conversation, even.
Speaker 2: Yeah, an ability to be wrong, which you know, not wrong,
Speaker 2: but you know what I'm saying, Like when when when
Speaker 2: the expectations and you're off and stuff you have to
Speaker 2: like in the whole bit, like you talk about it
Speaker 2: in a book, like in that growth in the like
Speaker 2: the cringe is what makes us real like and and
Speaker 2: for me, like I want to I want to read
Speaker 2: you a little part of the book that was like
Speaker 2: super important for me. Yeah, so you ask the initial
Speaker 2: reflection questions in the beginning of the book and then
Speaker 2: you say, are there things you want to work on
Speaker 2: changing or evolving. I still frequently think of myself as
Speaker 2: quote unquote annoying, but I know that my enthusiasm is
Speaker 2: actually one of my superpowers. Being too much is relative.
Speaker 2: I'm not just I'm not just some people but not
Speaker 2: expressive enough to others. Once we start to identify the
Speaker 2: traits we want to be perceived with, and we identify
Speaker 2: which negative traits we associate with ourselves, we can start
Speaker 2: to work on them. And I think like there's such
Speaker 2: like an affirmation of like the too muchness that is there,
Speaker 2: and it's just the language that you just like really
Speaker 2: kick to me because I've said that in my life,
Speaker 2: like I like, whether it's in relationships and like it
Speaker 2: can when you have a lot of energy and enthusiasm,
Speaker 2: be like when you're engaging with people and you see
Speaker 2: them trail off and they don't dislike you or anything
Speaker 2: like that, but you see that. So it really recognized
Speaker 2: a phenomenon. But also like going in and being like
Speaker 2: you know what, like I'm me and and and then
Speaker 2: and I'm not too much or or or too little.
Speaker 2: That was like really pivotal like uh for me to read,
Speaker 2: and I think it's really good like as uh like
Speaker 2: as a basis when you're going into plays, like don't
Speaker 2: take yourself so seriously make mistakes who gives a fuck
Speaker 2: what other people are saying when you're going down to
Speaker 2: it and you're lining in with what you want to do.
Speaker 2: And that was a great affirmation to me. How'd you
Speaker 2: get to that point where you could say that in
Speaker 2: that yeah for you? How do you get to that
Speaker 2: point where you're just like I am me?
Speaker 3: I mean, like I say in the book, it's imperfect.
Speaker 3: I talk about imperfect action and I think, I think,
Speaker 3: I mean, I still feel that way. I still feel
Speaker 3: like I'm annoying, but it's like being aware of it
Speaker 3: is the first step, and then giving myself, like treating
Speaker 3: myself as if I were talking to a best friend,
Speaker 3: where it's like, I don't think you're annoying. I think
Speaker 3: you're amazing and the right people will find you as
Speaker 3: long as you're being yourself. And I think for so
Speaker 3: long I dimmed a lot of my light and enthusiasm
Speaker 3: because I wanted to be taken seriously and be a professional.
Speaker 3: And I think so many people do that and can
Speaker 3: be taken seriously when we are enthusiastic. I think when
Speaker 3: we can find the things like our natural like gifts
Speaker 3: and talents, when we can be living in that world,
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter how enthusiastic or like obnoxious you are,
Speaker 3: you can still be serious. Like I literally wrote a
Speaker 3: book about play because.
Speaker 2: I'm excited about it and worked hard on it.
Speaker 3: I worked hard, Yeah, and one doesn't negate the other.
Speaker 3: And I think for a long time, I think I
Speaker 3: thought that it did. Like, oh well, if I'm like
Speaker 3: giggly and asking silly questions and I'm wholesome, then I
Speaker 3: will not be taken seriously and or I'm not attracting
Speaker 3: the like cool quote unquote cool people into my life.
Speaker 3: And I don't want to attract quote unquote cool people.
Speaker 3: I want to attract people who are authentically connecting with
Speaker 3: me because we have shared interests and they value what
Speaker 3: I value in myself. So to answer your question, I
Speaker 3: think a lot of it was therapy and self reflection
Speaker 3: and thinking about like Okay, why do I feel insecure
Speaker 3: about this thing? Or like can I name it? And
Speaker 3: I think that's what I try to get people to
Speaker 3: do in the book, is like just becoming aware of
Speaker 3: the maybe limiting beliefs that we have about ourselves and
Speaker 3: what we're allowed to have in our lives. And a
Speaker 3: lot of that is just like you know, from like
Speaker 3: you mentioned earlier experiences like getting criticized in your elementary
Speaker 3: art school class, or or you know you had a
Speaker 3: rough childhood, or a bad partner or a bad boss.
Speaker 3: All of us have these limiting experiences, and it's kind
Speaker 3: of like, how can we work to acknowledge them and
Speaker 3: be nice to ourselves and just like really think about
Speaker 3: what lights me up the most, what's going to make
Speaker 3: me happiest in my life? And like, if judgment weren't
Speaker 3: an issue, if money weren't an issue, how would I
Speaker 3: want to live? And we may not be able to
Speaker 3: do that because we live in a world where judgment
Speaker 3: and money are issues and we have to pay our bills.
Speaker 3: But what little steps can we take to kind of
Speaker 3: like just be in the direction of the life that
Speaker 3: we're craving or yearning for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved I loved that spot. Talk about some
Speaker 2: some some some art questions, and what I wanted to
Speaker 2: ask you is when when did you see yourself as
Speaker 2: an artist? When did that happen? Like was it a
Speaker 2: moment or.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question, and it's it's when when
Speaker 3: I first started doing talk therapy. Uh, maybe like six
Speaker 3: or seven years ago. I remember feeling this discontent with
Speaker 3: my life, like just like, oh, I just sort of
Speaker 3: feel like I want something bigger, but I can't articulate
Speaker 3: what it is. Like this isn't the life I'm supposed
Speaker 3: to live, but I don't know what life I'm supposed
Speaker 3: to live. I just don't feel good. And it's you know,
Speaker 3: through classic therapy questions, we got to the point where
Speaker 3: I couldn't even call myself a creative, even though anyone
Speaker 3: that knows me for my entire life would say that
Speaker 3: I'm a creative.
Speaker 2: Really you couldn't say that.
Speaker 3: I couldn't even say creative, and so like to first
Speaker 3: admit like I want to be an artist, that felt
Speaker 3: like I'm not allowed to have that. I didn't go
Speaker 3: to art school. I don't have, you know, disposable income
Speaker 3: that I can just like live off of so that
Speaker 3: I can make art all day and lounge around in
Speaker 3: southern France like I had. I had these like judgments
Speaker 3: and these like expectations of what it meant to be
Speaker 3: an artist. And so through a lot of reflection and
Speaker 3: I've read a million self help books, the Artist's Way
Speaker 3: was really impactful. I quote Julia Cameron a lot in
Speaker 3: the book. I realize like, oh, it's not it's not
Speaker 3: selfish to want to live the life that I want
Speaker 3: to live. And that's okay. And so I do this
Speaker 3: thing where I tell the people I work with, like,
Speaker 3: what's what title do you want to have? And for me,
Speaker 3: it's like capital a artist, and I say, we got
Speaker 3: a costplay as that version until it feels real. So
Speaker 3: I was introducing myself as an artist and I did
Speaker 3: this on the podcast. I said it. I was like,
Speaker 3: I'm on my podcast, Create of Craves. I was like,
Speaker 3: I'm going to practice introducing myself as an artist. Sure,
Speaker 3: And so I did that for like a season. Still
Speaker 3: didn't feel real. I think I am still in the
Speaker 3: practicing phase. I think, I know, I know it's true.
Speaker 3: I'm yeking art. I make art every day, but I
Speaker 3: don't know what it will take for it to feel
Speaker 3: like this is real. So I'm like, I'm okay with
Speaker 3: costs playing as it if it takes forever. You know,
Speaker 3: this is my armor, my it's it's my you know,
Speaker 3: costume that I'm putting on of artists. And then eventually
Speaker 3: it won't feel so much like a costume.
Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, I've just listened to your Eartahs, this is
Speaker 2: it's it's like a great surprise, but it makes inherent sense. Well,
Speaker 2: let me ask, Let me ask, Let me ask, uh
Speaker 2: we use in like art in like the big word art.
Speaker 2: What is r What do you view as as as
Speaker 2: art in your relationship? You know with you being an artist?
Speaker 3: M I love this question, and I think I like
Speaker 3: being naive to like the capital a art world like I,
Speaker 3: like you said, I was an engineer. I went to
Speaker 3: engineering college. That's what my degrees are in. I have
Speaker 3: no formal art education, so I don't know how things work.
Speaker 3: And for a long time I felt like that was
Speaker 3: to my detriment, But I actually think like me being
Speaker 3: naive to things gives me freedom. Like I have no
Speaker 3: idea what I'm quote unquote supposed to do, so I
Speaker 3: just do what feels good. And art for me in
Speaker 3: this exploration that I've been in the last couple of years,
Speaker 3: is pross making the weird shit in my brain but
Speaker 3: really processing what I'm feeling. And it doesn't have to
Speaker 3: be an exact representation of that. But art is a
Speaker 3: practice that I'm doing to connect with myself. It's not
Speaker 3: necessarily about the product. It's about the process of making.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I I just love that answered.
Speaker 3: What what is the.
Speaker 2: I asked, Well, so like right now, anybody I talked to,
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's my own disposition, right, Like, let's
Speaker 2: take the world frame right now, twenty twenty six, like
Speaker 2: temperatures getting hotter, getting hotter, and and you gotta you
Speaker 2: get these fucking data centers that gobblin up water and
Speaker 2: like everything like geopolitical stuff, and so the times feel different,
Speaker 2: they feel different to me. I also know that humans
Speaker 2: always think the end is coming. It's always around the corner.
Speaker 2: I also know that too. But is there something Is
Speaker 2: there something about the role of art rate now as
Speaker 2: we're talking twenty twenty six, is there something different about
Speaker 2: the role of art? Or is art just arting as
Speaker 2: it has in a different way.
Speaker 3: Ooh, that's a good question, I feel again because I
Speaker 3: feel so naive too, sort of the like the corporate
Speaker 3: art world, Like I don't know anything about galleries or
Speaker 3: what it means to be successful. I know what it
Speaker 3: means for me to be successful, and I think we
Speaker 3: all need to define our own level of success. And
Speaker 3: that's just like I get to make my art, that's it.
Speaker 3: That's success for me is like I have the space,
Speaker 3: time and resources to make what I want to make.
Speaker 3: But I think I think art is more. And maybe,
Speaker 3: like you said, humans have always thought that the ends
Speaker 3: are something we're living in the worst possible timeline. But
Speaker 3: I think it's so important because I think we're all
Speaker 3: so many of us are like cogs in this like
Speaker 3: late stage capitalist machine where we don't have time and
Speaker 3: we've lost our sense of community and identity. And I
Speaker 3: think art and play for me are tools that we
Speaker 3: can use to reconnect with ourselves to figure out like
Speaker 3: what does it mean to be me? Like who am I?
Speaker 3: What makes me happy? What do I enjoy doing? And
Speaker 3: then also by doing that, the more that we can
Speaker 3: figure out who we are and live that version cosplay
Speaker 3: as that version of ourselves that we want to be,
Speaker 3: the more we'll be able to connect with others who
Speaker 3: feel the same way and disconnect from sort of that productivity.
Speaker 3: I'm only successful if I'm making a lot of money,
Speaker 3: if I'm climbing the corporate ladder, like the liberation that
Speaker 3: you talked about, where it's like we need to redefine
Speaker 3: what success in life means. And I think art is
Speaker 3: a huge component of that that we have maybe lost,
Speaker 3: but many of us are finding our way back to.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense, yes, sure does I've I've been
Speaker 2: a notice and like even in talking in the conversation
Speaker 2: and talking about like the like the lack of background,
Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by that because like my my trajectory and
Speaker 2: like using art or thinking about being an artist is
Speaker 2: I can tell you for sure that I've literally never
Speaker 2: had a formal art class, like an extended formal art class,
Speaker 2: I know, And I've loved doing this as I've as
Speaker 2: I've lived, I've dropped into like workshops and stuff like
Speaker 2: that and been enthralled by that. So it's been intermittent
Speaker 2: and absolutely enjoyed that. But even like art history, anything
Speaker 2: I would know anything about that is completely self taught.
Speaker 2: I don't know the bio if he's in general or
Speaker 2: creators except for listening to like other podcasts, I'm interested
Speaker 2: in it. But it's like there's something about like this
Speaker 2: conversation with like lack of formal training that like it's
Speaker 2: that it seems like just so cool, like and even
Speaker 2: my approach to philosophy when it first started was like
Speaker 2: I took a philosophy of art class, it was still
Speaker 2: like and I love the conceptual questions, but it was
Speaker 2: still like, what is this big thing art from from
Speaker 2: from the outside. But I find it so strange because
Speaker 2: it's a tough thing for maybe for me to overcome
Speaker 2: and you to overcome too, of being like, why the
Speaker 2: hell do you say anything about art if you, like,
Speaker 2: if you haven't done this, And I think just kind
Speaker 2: of like disregarding that and put it back to like
Speaker 2: play and creativity is being like, hey, whether it's a
Speaker 2: cosplayer or not, we're looking pretty good, like you know,
Speaker 2: like we're we're doing our thing, and then talking about
Speaker 2: it in in a in a real way. I wanted
Speaker 2: because I saw the video of your book launch, I
Speaker 2: want you to tell, like I want to like tell
Speaker 2: the audience of how you did that. It had so
Speaker 2: many different components, but I want you to drop in
Speaker 2: a little bit like about the book launch itself and
Speaker 2: some of the creative activity that you built around the launch.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think it ties into the sort
Speaker 3: of the conversation about like the lack of training and
Speaker 3: just like being okay with being naive, like so many
Speaker 3: adults think they can't do something because they're going to
Speaker 3: be bad at it, and it's like, you're allowed to
Speaker 3: be bad. We can be bad at things. We can
Speaker 3: be you know, childlike at the things that we want
Speaker 3: to try. We don't have to be good. We don't
Speaker 3: have to aspire to be good at things to enjoy
Speaker 3: doing them. And that is what I told myself. With
Speaker 3: the book launch party, I was like, Okay, there are
Speaker 3: traditional ways that people have launched books. This is a
Speaker 3: non traditional book. It's createsivity, it's self help. There's a
Speaker 3: little bit of play. There's a lot of play, but
Speaker 3: there's also a little bit of my story. And I
Speaker 3: want to have those facets in that I talk about
Speaker 3: in the book represented in the book launch party. So
Speaker 3: I rented a warehouse in Detroit. And I love attention
Speaker 3: to detail, which I talk about in the book. I
Speaker 3: think when we're paying attention and we're intentional about every
Speaker 3: part of our lives, it's more fulfilling. And so I
Speaker 3: wanted everyone to come to this party and feel like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, she thought of everything and this is
Speaker 3: so silly and fun. So had all these stations, so
Speaker 3: people got at the door when they checked in, they
Speaker 3: got a goodie bag filled with dice and pom poms
Speaker 3: and a postcard and stickers and just like fun merch
Speaker 3: because I love that kind of stuff, like custom merch.
Speaker 3: And then they got a novelty cup that was either
Speaker 3: shaped like a smiley face of basketball or ice. And
Speaker 3: then they walk into the party and there's all these
Speaker 3: different stations and one was I hired a face painter,
Speaker 3: and this is like, this is an adults party. It's not.
Speaker 3: It's not a children's birthday party. And that face painter
Speaker 3: was busy all night, like she has like I'm done,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. Yeah, And that makes me so happy because
Speaker 3: it's like, how often are adults getting their faces painted?
Speaker 3: Like if there's a face painter at an event that
Speaker 3: I went to, I would be like, oh, I feel bad,
Speaker 3: the kids are waiting. I'm not going to stand in
Speaker 3: line and wait. And this was giving permission, and I
Speaker 3: think giving permission is what the book is about. And
Speaker 3: so there's there was the face painter. I had a
Speaker 3: photo booth station. I had a collage table where I
Speaker 3: brought all my collage materials and people could make laminated bookmarks.
Speaker 3: I have this exercise in the book called making a
Speaker 3: playlist like a to do list filled with only play activities.
Speaker 3: And I do this seasonally because I feel like it's
Speaker 3: easy to kind of think back to what did I
Speaker 3: like to do in the winter as a kid, Have
Speaker 3: a snowball fight, drink hot chocolate, and those little tiny
Speaker 3: actions are what can help propel us into this life
Speaker 3: of play and creativity. So I made big poster board
Speaker 3: with empty playlists and had people write their favorite seasonal activities.
Speaker 3: I had these silly questions for conversation. I had my
Speaker 3: friends are really talented chefs, like home chefs, and they
Speaker 3: made this six foot long sandwich that we cut up
Speaker 3: into a bunch of pieces. So there's just this visual
Speaker 3: impact of a huge sandwich and then the biggest part
Speaker 3: And I think maybe this ties into the like when
Speaker 3: did I feel like an artist? Or when am I
Speaker 3: feeling validated in that feeling is I was like, well,
Speaker 3: it's my party. I'm going to have an art gallery
Speaker 3: with all the work that I've created. And so I
Speaker 3: had a corner that was all of the work that
Speaker 3: I'm stoked about, and I set it up like an
Speaker 3: art gallery on the white pillars and labeled everything and
Speaker 3: it was magical. I had a Bingo card so everyone
Speaker 3: had activities to do because at big social events, I
Speaker 3: sometimes get overwhelmed and I'm like, I don't know if
Speaker 3: I want to talk to a bunch of strangers all
Speaker 3: the time. So if there's an activity for me at
Speaker 3: an event, I'm so happy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And so there were things like check out the art gallery,
Speaker 3: right your silly question, get your face painted, eat a
Speaker 3: part of the big Sandwich, and then if they got
Speaker 3: a bingo, they can enter in. And I made these
Speaker 3: prize packs with lots of fun. So all of this,
Speaker 3: all of those stations represented this like playful energy that
Speaker 3: I'm trying to get people to realize, like we're allowed
Speaker 3: to do this in our lives, Like I made this
Speaker 3: party up, I made this book up. Hell yeah, and
Speaker 3: you can do it too. So it was a blast.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I just want to hang out with you.
Speaker 2: You're up there, you're up there in Detroit, and it's
Speaker 2: so it's so wonderful to hear about the book launch.
Speaker 2: There's another iteration or your creativity that I saw and
Speaker 2: I was late in coming to It was fashion and
Speaker 2: close and I just I've lost my mind on this piece.
Speaker 2: Like the other stuff is I love that I've lost
Speaker 2: my mind on this piece because like another another thing
Speaker 2: with like going through the show is two out of
Speaker 2: three guests are non male genders. And I also have
Speaker 2: talked to a lot of different indigenous guests over thirty
Speaker 2: and have moved into things that I didn't expect, like
Speaker 2: color and fashion, and I know you have this whole
Speaker 2: I want to talk about clothes in fashion because it
Speaker 2: was it was striking when I first saw images of you.
Speaker 2: I like, your clothes were like so wild and fantastic
Speaker 2: and like really cool. And then I was reading more
Speaker 2: about how finding yourself and your identity and doing that,
Speaker 2: and I do believe at the launch party, everybody was
Speaker 2: wearing monochromatic yes, clothes which you had, which you had
Speaker 2: directed talk about the clothes, the fashion, wearing color, and
Speaker 2: also like it seemed to me that you started to
Speaker 2: develop like a very large following, like of people being like,
Speaker 2: oh man, I'm gonna follow Rachel or be inspired by
Speaker 2: Rachel and what she's doing. Can you talk about that
Speaker 2: whole bit because that's so fun.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, I forgot that part of the party. There's
Speaker 3: so many details of the party.
Speaker 2: That I can that's I was like, I was like
Speaker 2: even though this is a big one for me, this
Speaker 2: is number twenty details, so I don't know if she's
Speaker 2: gonna remember it.
Speaker 3: No, Yeah, I did say like please wear color monochrome encouraged,
Speaker 3: and I was I was curious, Like a couple of
Speaker 3: my friends were like, Okay, who's gonna what are you
Speaker 3: gonna do when people don't follow that rule? And I
Speaker 3: was like, it's okay, I bet most people will, and
Speaker 3: sure enough, most people did, and it was it was
Speaker 3: visually impactful like it it was so cool that people
Speaker 3: did it. And the photographer that I hired like got
Speaker 3: the different color groups together, and it just I think
Speaker 3: color is such an underutilized thing in adult life. Likes
Speaker 3: to wear all black. We have like, you know, we
Speaker 3: had the millennial gray interior design aesthetic that was you know,
Speaker 3: had so many of us in a choke hold. And
Speaker 3: for me, color is creative expression. And yeah, I have
Speaker 3: had many like creative iterations. So when I was doing
Speaker 3: my engineering job, I was doing hand lettering, letter press printing,
Speaker 3: and I had a stationary business and I got really
Speaker 3: burnt out on that and I was putting a lot
Speaker 3: of pressure on that. So I was like, Okay, I
Speaker 3: love getting dressed. I love thrifting, I love putting together
Speaker 3: outfits that feel like me that no one else has.
Speaker 3: And I really wanted to give myself an opportunity to
Speaker 3: explore that and accountability to sharing it. And so during
Speaker 3: like you know, a year or so after COVID started,
Speaker 3: we're all working from home, I'm wearing sweatpants and feeling
Speaker 3: pretty uninspired in my life, I was like, I'm going
Speaker 3: to do a creative challenge, and I decided to do
Speaker 3: these style challenges. I called them the Rachel Renee Style Challenges,
Speaker 3: and I was like, I'm going to post my outfits online.
Speaker 3: And part of it was like me wanting to feel
Speaker 3: comfortable feeling seen online because so many people will say like, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm not comfortable with doing a real on the internet,
Speaker 3: or I don't want people to judge me, and it's
Speaker 3: like that's going to happen either way. So if you
Speaker 3: feel called to share your version of creativity, you should
Speaker 3: do it. And so it was like I couldn't articulate
Speaker 3: that then, but looking back, I definitely was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I wanted to feel more seen, and so I created
Speaker 3: these style challenges. I made a prompt like monochrome Mondays
Speaker 3: or thrifted Thursdays, fancy Fridays, or they got weirder and
Speaker 3: weirder as the months progress, like we're doing barbecue sommer
Speaker 3: as this week's theme, like like I'm wearing hot dog colors.
Speaker 3: Like just silly. But what it allowed me to do
Speaker 3: is one feel more comfortable, feeling seen connect with people
Speaker 3: who were excited about the same things, because sometimes that's
Speaker 3: hard to do in person. And so that's why I
Speaker 3: love like online communities too, is because it's like we
Speaker 3: get to connect with people who are into the same
Speaker 3: exact thing as us. And then it was a practice
Speaker 3: in me showing up authentically exploring my personal style. I
Speaker 3: was able to start articulating like oh I like these colors,
Speaker 3: I like these materials, And it was a blast. But
Speaker 3: I very quickly, like you said, I grew a following
Speaker 3: around these style challenges, people participating and connecting, and I
Speaker 3: made lots of friends online through that challenge. But then
Speaker 3: when maybe like a year into it, I got kind
Speaker 3: of like pigeonholed and people were considering me like a
Speaker 3: fashion influencer and that's fine, but I was feeling stifled.
Speaker 3: I was like that's not what I am. I don't
Speaker 3: want to tell people to buy this stuff. I want
Speaker 3: to give you permission to explore your style on your own, Like,
Speaker 3: let me help you with these prompts, because it's what
Speaker 3: helped me express myself creatively. And so that's where I
Speaker 3: started talking about creativity and creative expression and identity because
Speaker 3: I was like, these are close are tools for me
Speaker 3: to show up as the identity that I want. And
Speaker 3: then I got the pushback on the creativity terms with
Speaker 3: people being like, well, that's you, not me, and that's
Speaker 3: why I was like, but we can play. We can
Speaker 3: play with clothes, and so yeah, clothes are very, very
Speaker 3: a very important part of my I think identity. I really,
Speaker 3: I know, before we started recording, I showed you my
Speaker 3: vintage Green Bay Packers sell you.
Speaker 2: Shout out for that Green Bay Packers shirt. Rachel just
Speaker 2: pointing that out for everybody.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and so like I love style, and I
Speaker 3: think style and close our tools to help us again,
Speaker 3: cosplay as the version of ourselves we want to be. Like,
Speaker 3: if I want to be an artist, I'm gonna dress
Speaker 3: a little bit more kooky. I'm gonna wear more colors.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna wear weird wide leg pants because that will
Speaker 3: help me like step into that identity. So I think
Speaker 3: clothes are a really cool way to express ourselves creatively.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thanks for chatting about that. I think clothes
Speaker 2: and color. One of the things that I've talked to
Speaker 2: guests before is like the development of my brain. Uh,
Speaker 2: when I started painting and and and moving into like
Speaker 2: I started seeing a lot more different colors, and so
Speaker 2: your activities where you're pulling things out for the environment,
Speaker 2: we're very much like in my head of like seeing
Speaker 2: and pulling out. And once I started to do that,
Speaker 2: they're talking about like change, like physical change, Like my
Speaker 2: brain started to see differently, and that was like once
Speaker 2: I realized that happened, I was like, holy shit it
Speaker 2: and it was really true. Like, uh, painting, but I
Speaker 2: very much apply to like speaking a monochromatic. I got
Speaker 2: this Adidas track suit that's specifically the color is warm clay,
Speaker 2: and that damn suit, Like I told, I tell my people,
Speaker 2: people joke with me about it. I said, that's my
Speaker 2: foremost I wear that thing anywhere, that warm clay at
Speaker 2: the tracksuit, I'm lined in. I'm lined in. When I
Speaker 2: got that thing too, And that's what.
Speaker 3: Style is so cool, because it's like that is the
Speaker 3: piece or the set that makes you feel the most.
Speaker 3: You Like, I have a couple of pieces where I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm feeling insecure today, or I'm feeling low. I'm feeling low.
Speaker 3: I'm going to put on this this eighties prom dress
Speaker 3: and go to Costell. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's like
Speaker 3: they are tools that we can use to like hype
Speaker 3: ourselves up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so much. So much to talk about what's
Speaker 2: been with the book being out, any surprises as far
Speaker 2: as like surprises in the process or somebody ran into
Speaker 2: or things you're starting starting to hear about your own book.
Speaker 3: I haven't heard a lot yet, all good things, which
Speaker 3: are great. I haven't seen any negative reviews yet, which
Speaker 3: is fantastic, but I assume they'll come. I'm trying to
Speaker 3: mentally prepare for that. I think I'm just really excited
Speaker 3: to see how this connects me with like more creative
Speaker 3: communities and getting this in the hands of more people
Speaker 3: and realizing like, yeah, play and creativity are tools that
Speaker 3: we can use to live for ourselves. I am excited
Speaker 3: to be doing some book events at some local libraries
Speaker 3: and local bookstores. I'm doing a virtual kind of workshop
Speaker 3: about play for Creative Mornings. Are you familiar with that? So?
Speaker 3: I think it originally started in New York. I don't
Speaker 3: know all of the lore behind Creative Mornings, but it's
Speaker 3: like a group of designers started it, I think, where
Speaker 3: they would get together every Friday morning and just like
Speaker 3: chat about design work being creatives. And then it expanded
Speaker 3: and there are chapters in different major cities. But then
Speaker 3: they do these online things called field trips where you
Speaker 3: can sign up and you can talk about whatever your
Speaker 3: creative interest is. And so I'll be doing a field trip,
Speaker 3: which I'm excited about. I'm hoping that when more people
Speaker 3: read the book and can understand what I mean when
Speaker 3: I say prioritize play, that it's not just like, oh, hey,
Speaker 3: go make time to go play basketball more, which if
Speaker 3: that's your play, do it. But really it's like a
Speaker 3: mindset and lifestyle shift, and they're are easy ways to
Speaker 3: start to do this in our lives. I just hope
Speaker 3: that I get to talk to more people like I
Speaker 3: would love to talk to like a corporate design team
Speaker 3: and be like, hey, I know you all are educated
Speaker 3: in the design world, and I don't have any education,
Speaker 3: but like, what if we were pinatas? What would you
Speaker 3: look like? And what would you be filled with? Which
Speaker 3: is one of the questions in the book.
Speaker 2: That is one of the questions, and that is the
Speaker 2: question that I read. I went back and I read,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, who did it? In God's Green Earth?
Speaker 2: Wrote this down? And it was me and my pinata? Right,
Speaker 2: so that it's a pinata, what's it's shaped as, and
Speaker 2: what's filled with? Check this out. It's the shape of
Speaker 2: a crucifix and filled with pomegranates. I'm like, I don't
Speaker 2: even remember writing that thing. It's a pretty wild idea,
Speaker 2: but I'm like it's my handwriting and everything. I'm like
Speaker 2: this last week, So it's like a simple thing for me.
Speaker 2: It reminds me a lot of times, you know, like
Speaker 2: when you write something down, your creative ideas, and you
Speaker 2: look at it, You're like, it's me, but it's like,
Speaker 2: I both, I don't even remember thinking of writing that,
Speaker 2: And so that one of the pieces about the book
Speaker 2: is like kind of like writing that stuff down, messing
Speaker 2: messing with the book that I thought it was the
Speaker 2: Stranger's thing. I was like, I wrote that down, so
Speaker 2: a lot of fun. Yeah, So the creative question and
Speaker 2: what it's felt I thought that.
Speaker 3: Was I'm so glad you did it. Yeah, I feel
Speaker 3: like the that's what I was hoping to really put
Speaker 3: in the book, where like questions like that where it's
Speaker 3: like you are being forced to be creative, but it's
Speaker 3: almost like I'm throwing you off so much with how
Speaker 3: weird it is that you you're limiting beliefs about like
Speaker 3: who you are don't come in yet, you just automatically answer.
Speaker 3: And I think like when we can sort of channel
Speaker 3: that like authentic version of ourselves, Like I have some
Speaker 3: I journal every day and I have some examples like
Speaker 3: what you said where I'm reading back and I'm like,
Speaker 3: where did this idea come from? I've never thought about
Speaker 3: that before in my life, but okay, and I'm like
Speaker 3: what was I Did I not have my coffee?
Speaker 2: Like? Was I still speaking? Who is this?
Speaker 3: And But I think like when we can sort of
Speaker 3: tap into that, like on we're not filtering our thoughts,
Speaker 3: we're just answering, I think like that can help us
Speaker 3: tap into that creativity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I there was a thought that I I was
Speaker 2: thinking about and maybe it was like Detroit that prompted it,
Speaker 2: you know. So I think in terms of like when
Speaker 2: you talk about our system and creative places. You know,
Speaker 2: I come from like working class background and like, and
Speaker 2: you know people come from different backgrounds, and art always
Speaker 2: has like a different station or place. But it's I
Speaker 2: think in the context of like general economics and survivability,
Speaker 2: Like there's this kind of like really like dark corner
Speaker 2: where it's absolutely frivolous and useless and not productive and
Speaker 2: knowing that that's not the case and like learning over time,
Speaker 2: like for working people. The reason why I was thinking
Speaker 2: of like Michigan, Detroit and stuff like because I know
Speaker 2: there's like you know, I don't live it, but I
Speaker 2: know there's a renaissance of like creative activity and space
Speaker 2: and artists in that area, you know, and it's like
Speaker 2: post rollout of you know, factories closing everything that's happened
Speaker 2: to Detroit, which still stands as a fantastic city but
Speaker 2: has gone through all that type of thing. There was
Speaker 2: such a tight connection in my head of like how
Speaker 2: like after this essential and semi collapse here that there
Speaker 2: was space. You know, it's political and social aspects to it,
Speaker 2: but that there was a space opening up around that.
Speaker 2: So it almost seemed like, almost like in my head,
Speaker 2: like the place for that to emerge in like almost
Speaker 2: like reaction or like of like a new creativity. Is
Speaker 2: that authentic? Like I mean you're there, and I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to overblow like the Detroit thing, but as you're
Speaker 2: interacting with people in the space in that city, there
Speaker 2: is that that that kind of art renaissance or space
Speaker 2: or culture is that? Is that a real thing? And
Speaker 2: is it growing?
Speaker 3: I think so I will say that I'm like kind
Speaker 3: of a homebody, so I know I'm not like out
Speaker 3: and about a lot, but yeah, absolutely, I've been I've
Speaker 3: been in Detroit since twenty thirteen, so over a decade.
Speaker 3: And I mean even in that decade plus that I've
Speaker 3: been here, it's changed a lot. Definitely. It seems like
Speaker 3: that it's such a creative city and it's kind of
Speaker 3: like I read Just Kids by Patti Smith and she's
Speaker 3: talking about moving to New York and like, you know,
Speaker 3: they're living in these warehouses that don't have plumbing and
Speaker 3: it's like a supplied closet bathroom is where they get
Speaker 3: their water. And it gives me like that sort of
Speaker 3: vibe where it's like a very industrial city that is
Speaker 3: less industrial than it once was. There's still a lot
Speaker 3: of like the working class mentality, Like I think we
Speaker 3: all in the Midwest, we just like love to work
Speaker 3: hard and feel good about our hard work, you know.
Speaker 3: And and so there's there's space. Detroit is a huge city,
Speaker 3: like Land area wise, so there's a lot that is
Speaker 3: not populated, and so there's space. Like I was, I
Speaker 3: would never be able to rent the space that I
Speaker 3: rented in Detroit for my book launch party, like in
Speaker 3: New York in Brooklyn, like that would be you know,
Speaker 3: quadruple to ten times the price for me to be
Speaker 3: able to do that. And so I think in spaces
Speaker 3: like that, artists it's like the natural progression, right, Like
Speaker 3: artists come in, We're like, all right, we can utilize
Speaker 3: this space. And then eventually that leads to like gentrification
Speaker 3: and then everything is Williamsburg. So and that hasn't happened yet,
Speaker 3: but there are some neighborhoods Detroit that that's that's starting
Speaker 3: where it's like, oh, when I first moved here, I
Speaker 3: could I could have bought a house in that neighborhood.
Speaker 3: And now I'm like, no, way, but I think that's
Speaker 3: pretty pretty common for cities. But to answer your question, yeah,
Speaker 3: there's a great creative energy here and it's it's like
Speaker 3: to me, it feels like a down to earth kind
Speaker 3: of grounded energy because of the Midwest mindset.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that makes a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 2: Now on the show, I like, I like dropping into
Speaker 2: like whatever way I can, like the area the folks
Speaker 2: are on, or what's the vibe, and sometimes there's these
Speaker 2: different pieces that make you think because it's not just
Speaker 2: like for you, you obviously like you know, hype gal,
Speaker 2: hype gal for all this hype gal for yourself, but
Speaker 2: overall too there are stultifying atmospheres and there are like
Speaker 2: expansive in creative atmospheres, and neither are perfect. But like
Speaker 2: you can be situated in the spot where rather than
Speaker 2: have to explain each thing you're do and somebody's baking,
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool, Yeah we'll roll with that, and so
Speaker 2: like to help you totally.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think like that's something that is interesting because
Speaker 3: I think there are like, for example, I went, I
Speaker 3: have friends in Brooklyn, I have friends in Portland. You're
Speaker 3: you're you know, not too too far from Portland. Closer
Speaker 3: to Portland than Detroit for sure. Uh, So I can
Speaker 3: go to Portland or Brooklyn and I can be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm an artist. I do this. I make weird paper
Speaker 3: mache shit, and people are like hell yeah. Around here.
Speaker 3: There are some community like some people I talk to
Speaker 3: who get it, and then there's some that are like
Speaker 3: what because it's it's sort of that again Midwest mindset
Speaker 3: where it's like, I I don't know what it is about,
Speaker 3: like the socialization of people. I grew up in Michigan's
Speaker 3: upper peninsulat, so like very.
Speaker 2: Rural, oh you'll pee.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly closer to Wisconsin than Detroit. Yeah, But I
Speaker 3: think and maybe it's like sort of the the cold
Speaker 3: weather mindset and the immigrants that came in, Like my family,
Speaker 3: I'm a fifth generation Yupers, so it's it's quite a
Speaker 3: few generations removed since they came to the up but
Speaker 3: just sort of the like you put your head down,
Speaker 3: you work hard, you don't complain sort of mentality, And
Speaker 3: so I think growing up around that was a lot
Speaker 3: of the reason why I'm like, oh, it's frivolous for
Speaker 3: me to want to be an artist, even though it's
Speaker 3: so core to my being and so there is a
Speaker 3: little bit of that mindset. I think in the Midwest,
Speaker 3: it's just like not everyone is like a weird creative
Speaker 3: like they are in Brooklyn or in Portland or in
Speaker 3: even La in a different way, you know, like I
Speaker 3: feel very at home in those other bigger cities that
Speaker 3: are like freak culture and that I mean that as
Speaker 3: a compliment. Why why yep, exactly, But Detroit has some
Speaker 3: of that and also the cost of living is very
Speaker 3: low and that's lovely. And I'm from this area and
Speaker 3: my community is here and the access to nature in
Speaker 3: the different seasons, like there are a lot of reasons
Speaker 3: to love it here. So yeah, ros and cons everywhere, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks no, thanks for for for dropping us in there.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 2: My head, I'm a huge horror film freak, and I
Speaker 2: think there was a couple filled in that kind of
Speaker 2: like almost like outsoor outdoor liminal space like in Detroit,
Speaker 2: and I was like just dropping into that, like love that.
Speaker 2: It's like almost like industrial horror, but just like that
Speaker 2: creativity of like what's what what is in that space?
Speaker 2: What is hidden? What is uh like uh beyond that door?
Speaker 2: So oh wow. So we we covered a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2: Tell me, tell me why did you start a podcast?
Speaker 2: And I know you do with the partner there, what
Speaker 2: about the podcast? Like, what's the podcast been for you?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Our podcast. I kind of pitched it to my
Speaker 3: friend Lauren. She's she's a designer uh and has been
Speaker 3: for many years and has has primary She worked for
Speaker 3: a marketing agency for like a year out of college,
Speaker 3: but then has primarily worked for herself. And she's been
Speaker 3: a great resource for me in terms of especially when
Speaker 3: I was doing hand lettering, I was like, oh, Lauren's
Speaker 3: done lettering. I'm learning a lot from this friend. And
Speaker 3: we always just had really great conversations about philosophy, about creativity,
Speaker 3: about yeah, politics, about just all the stuff. Uh. And
Speaker 3: many times we would have these hours long conversations and
Speaker 3: be like, man, we should have recorded that, Like we
Speaker 3: had some good nuggets in there. And as I was
Speaker 3: starting to kind of step into this role of artist,
Speaker 3: of creative, of doing more sort of education and encouragement
Speaker 3: online talking about prioritizing play, I was like, I think
Speaker 3: we have an interesting perspective that we can share because
Speaker 3: you have all of the you, Lauren have all of
Speaker 3: the background of like going to design to art school
Speaker 3: and being a designer and working for yourself being a
Speaker 3: freelancer for a decade. I am in this transition period
Speaker 3: where like I admire everything that you do, but I
Speaker 3: haven't been able to fully allow myself to do that,
Speaker 3: and so I'm kind of navigating these sort of like
Speaker 3: emerging artists or like new questions that she's been living
Speaker 3: for a decade. And I was like, instead of just
Speaker 3: asking her and only me getting the answers, maybe we
Speaker 3: could share this. And then we giggle a lot. And
Speaker 3: we're very chaotic in terms of like we're working on
Speaker 3: lots of things. We love working with our hands doing projects,
Speaker 3: and so we were like, let's do a season and
Speaker 3: just like see how it goes. And we really enjoyed it,
Speaker 3: and like we talked about earlier, like they're there. You
Speaker 3: learn from conversations. I mean, if it's with the same person,
Speaker 3: you know, it's just the topics that we talked about,
Speaker 3: the little nuggets of wisdom, even the cringe that like
Speaker 3: if I go back and listen to season one episodes
Speaker 3: and I'm like, why would I say that? Somebody related
Speaker 3: to it, and like I learned, So yeah, that's kind
Speaker 3: of where that came from. Just like, let's we have
Speaker 3: great conversations about lots of things and we understand how
Speaker 3: like we're imperfect, we want to be chaotic, we want
Speaker 3: to be creative, and we live these lives that we're
Speaker 3: talking about. So yeah, that's where that came from.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like the well, I mean I like the
Speaker 2: podcast format, which I see is like in its essence
Speaker 2: like populist and people based in accessible, And I think
Speaker 2: it was strange like just and working on the podcast
Speaker 2: and like watch started developed like as far as like
Speaker 2: connecting people like my ideas and like where this came from,
Speaker 2: and like just like it was all organized into my head.
Speaker 2: So I realized one day I'm a labor organizer by
Speaker 2: by trading in my day job. So it was it
Speaker 2: was like the type of thing of like you think
Speaker 2: the word sucks, but like transferability, right, so like you're
Speaker 2: talking about like what do you know and like how
Speaker 2: it can translate. But I realized like either like habitually
Speaker 2: or in a way that was even more exciting to
Speaker 2: me that I was like organizing around are Like at
Speaker 2: some point I just step back and being like, well,
Speaker 2: I'm an organizer by nature and I'm like putting this
Speaker 2: here and this here and this here and encountering this
Speaker 2: and how do you get to this person? Because I
Speaker 2: talked to that person. I saw them at a party
Speaker 2: and I didn't know they did photography and I talked
Speaker 2: to them, you know, and it was all it all
Speaker 2: kind of the like I would develop, Like there was
Speaker 2: a conscious development of that, but it was like it
Speaker 2: was such a surprise to me that like, oh, I'm
Speaker 2: kind of like pulling it together like I would do
Speaker 2: with the workers that I that I represent, and I
Speaker 2: don't know, it just felt a lot of fun. It
Speaker 2: felt more powerful too, because like there was a lot
Speaker 2: of ways I interact that it was just like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm doing it and in this way. And the
Speaker 2: number one question most people about about my show is like,
Speaker 2: how do you like how the hell do you like
Speaker 2: find or invite these people? And it's all developed over time,
Speaker 2: and it's all makes intuitive sense, you know, like talking
Speaker 2: to you and and and in your book, it all
Speaker 2: makes intuitive sense to me. But like on the outside,
Speaker 2: it's be like how do you talk to like somebody
Speaker 2: who does like there's an exotic dancer like in La
Speaker 2: and like you know, I got it, and I said,
Speaker 2: there's a path. There's a path that led to like
Speaker 2: all these expressions. And also and I don't know if
Speaker 2: you find like sometimes in your conversations having the first
Speaker 2: conversation with somebody who does like this art thing that
Speaker 2: you have no frigging clue what it is, Like I like,
Speaker 2: for me, like I don't know, like people working with
Speaker 2: metal and stuff like that, and be like I want
Speaker 2: you on the show, like tell us the stuff and
Speaker 2: like what you think about, and it's just really open.
Speaker 2: It feels really cool, and that like a curious like
Speaker 2: learning learning spread always like to learn, you know, And
Speaker 2: the podcast seems to me like a really good spot
Speaker 2: for that.
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, And I love what you said about just
Speaker 3: like the connections because I think for so long, and
Speaker 3: especially when I did my engineering job, like networking was
Speaker 3: we talked about networking all the time, and it was
Speaker 3: like I would go to these conferences and I would
Speaker 3: just feel just so like, oh I don't want to
Speaker 3: talk to that person. I like just want to go
Speaker 3: back to my hotel room, do my talk and go away.
Speaker 3: And since I have quit that career and become this
Speaker 3: person now fully, I it's like every conversation is an
Speaker 3: opportunity for connection. I'm like, you very curious, love to learn,
Speaker 3: and when you're not approaching it from the perspective of
Speaker 3: like I have to network and like get on good
Speaker 3: terms with this person, and instead you're like, what can
Speaker 3: I learn about this person? Those connections just naturally happen
Speaker 3: and then you know, in five years when I'm thinking
Speaker 3: about oh, yeah, like you said, metalsmithing, I don't know
Speaker 3: that person. Uh oh, this person does glass work, but
Speaker 3: maybe they know somebody who does metal And it's just
Speaker 3: like naturally, again, when we're finding the things that light
Speaker 3: us up the most, we're curious about them, we're excited,
Speaker 3: we're meeting other people with those same values sort of naturally,
Speaker 3: and then that network just naturally expands instead of it
Speaker 3: being like I have to force this connection because this
Speaker 3: is a person I should know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the that's there's a piece of that
Speaker 2: like and I totally understand that as well, but it's
Speaker 2: almost like how you go into it. And obviously you
Speaker 2: be thinking about that with intentionality, but like it's like
Speaker 2: for me, it almost always seems like kind of impossible
Speaker 2: to get into things with the framework of it's just
Speaker 2: it's just a it's a transaction. Like if I'm gonna know,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be like, what's the last book you read
Speaker 2: that blew your mind right? And then for me that's
Speaker 2: gonna that's gonna open up so much stuff, rather like
Speaker 2: did you look at this protocol? And like I know
Speaker 2: you're an expert. God bless everybody for like learning what
Speaker 2: they need to learn, but like like in organizing or
Speaker 2: what a network and such, just like I always think
Speaker 2: ultimately it's like to know the human being and like
Speaker 2: how they're approaching it. Even technical knowledge like that's fine,
Speaker 2: tell me technical shit that I need to know as well,
Speaker 2: But there's a humanity I think like that we're talking
Speaker 2: about that's missed when like I need you for this
Speaker 2: and you can't. If I can't make that transfer of
Speaker 2: what you mean to me, it's a failed conversation rather
Speaker 2: than being like I heard your kid plays baseball, is
Speaker 2: like you know, like human wise, like I don't know
Speaker 2: how to I don't know how to open it up
Speaker 2: in those Maybe that's part of it too, I don't
Speaker 2: necessarily like quite know or maybe not deeply interesting in
Speaker 2: just opening up the relationship in that way, you know.
Speaker 3: I yeah, And I think like everyone wants. I truly
Speaker 3: think everyone wants to be seen and understood for who
Speaker 3: they are. And when we're asking people about their personal lives,
Speaker 3: what do you like to do, what do you like
Speaker 3: to do for fun? What's the last book you read?
Speaker 3: What are your kids up to this weekend? You know,
Speaker 3: like those those questions make them feel seen as a
Speaker 3: human instead of a cog in this machine. And I
Speaker 3: think that's all we all want.
Speaker 2: And we all get bored with work, like I'm a
Speaker 2: labor Like I love labor, Like I cut my finger,
Speaker 2: I bleed the label went on stuff that's not it
Speaker 2: for me, Like it's a huge, massive, massive chunk, and
Speaker 2: I get bored with Like I get bored with things
Speaker 2: like just you know, not that I'm bored with it,
Speaker 2: but like it is not my first entry. It's not
Speaker 2: the first thing, like you know, so as fast as
Speaker 2: I am with like workers and what the experiences will
Speaker 2: work and trying to make it better. Sometimes when you
Speaker 2: have conversations like I want to I want to talk
Speaker 2: about a movie, like I really just want or like
Speaker 2: whatever you know, like opening it up, or like what
Speaker 2: people like for art and music? You know, music's in
Speaker 2: art conversation, right, so you know, asking about like what
Speaker 2: what what?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: What you really dig on and stuff? So uh so
Speaker 2: uh and everybody. I want to let listeners know, Rachel
Speaker 2: renee is is is your hype gal? As you say,
Speaker 2: how do you all right? So let me ask you
Speaker 2: this question. I know you're hyt gal, and I like
Speaker 2: to be a hype gal hype guy for everybody that
Speaker 2: that I know you say it, even for yourself or
Speaker 2: being for yourself. How the heck, heck, how the heck
Speaker 2: you be your own hype person? What do you mean?
Speaker 3: What are you?
Speaker 2: What are you thinking about?
Speaker 3: There's Yeah, there's a chapter in the book about that
Speaker 3: because I think, especially growing up in a small town
Speaker 3: like I, as a little freak artist, I felt deeply misunderstood.
Speaker 3: And I think that's a pretty common feeling that a
Speaker 3: lot of kids feel, whether you're from a rural area
Speaker 3: or not. Right like, we're all just trying to figure
Speaker 3: out who we are. And I think that for so
Speaker 3: long I was looking for permission externally. I was looking
Speaker 3: for someone to say, you're good at art, go to
Speaker 3: art school, you're good at this, do this. Oh I'm
Speaker 3: expecting you to get married, have kids, buy a house,
Speaker 3: settle down forever.
Speaker 2: Do that.
Speaker 3: And so I was not wanting to do those things,
Speaker 3: but I was waiting for someone to say you should
Speaker 3: do this, or like this is what I'm expecting you
Speaker 3: to do, or now you have permission to do this.
Speaker 3: And so I think what I've realized in my own
Speaker 3: journey to getting here is that like we're the only
Speaker 3: ones who can give ourselves permission to live the way
Speaker 3: that we want to, and so we have to hype
Speaker 3: ourselves up for that permission. We have to give ourselves permission.
Speaker 2: First.
Speaker 3: No one is gonna no one is gonna pop into
Speaker 3: your house and say, okay, now you're allowed. You just
Speaker 3: it's not gonna happen. And I don't think anyone thinks,
Speaker 3: of course, like logistically that's actually gonna happen. But it's
Speaker 3: kind of like we're all waiting for the right time.
Speaker 3: I don't I'll wait until i have more money, or
Speaker 3: I'll wait until I have more time, or I'll wait
Speaker 3: until my partner makes more money so they can support
Speaker 3: me doing my art. And it just there's never the
Speaker 3: perfect circumstance, and so we have to trust in that
Speaker 3: yearning that like desire for ourselves and give ourselves permission
Speaker 3: to chase it. Maybe you can't quit your job today,
Speaker 3: maybe you never quit your job, but can you do
Speaker 3: one small thing in the direction of that life that
Speaker 3: you're craving. And So when I say be your own
Speaker 3: hype gal or hype pal, it's you gotta give yourself
Speaker 3: permission first, and then recognize that, like, if you're really
Speaker 3: excited about an idea and you're gonna tell somebody about it,
Speaker 3: they're probably not going to get it. Or if they
Speaker 3: get it, they're not going to be as excited as
Speaker 3: you because it's your idea. So maybe you have an
Speaker 3: idea for a painting, or like I have this idea
Speaker 3: for I ask the pinata question. I want to do
Speaker 3: these paper mache like representations of the pinata answers that
Speaker 3: people give me. And the crucifix with pomegranate seeds would
Speaker 3: be an incredible one to make, I think. But in
Speaker 3: explaining a lot of my creative ideas, I'm watching people's
Speaker 3: eyes glaze over and they're like, you know, they want
Speaker 3: to be excited for me, but they don't get it.
Speaker 3: And so I think in the past I would have
Speaker 3: been like, oh, yeah, I probably shouldn't do that because like, oh,
Speaker 3: it didn't make sense to them. And now I'm like,
Speaker 3: I have to make it. People need to see it, yeah,
Speaker 3: first to understand it. And even if they don't understand
Speaker 3: it or like it, I made it because the process
Speaker 3: of making it was important to me. So it's like
Speaker 3: we have to remove that that design, hire for permission
Speaker 3: and expectation that like everyone's going to be as stoked
Speaker 3: as we are for our practices. It's just not going
Speaker 3: to happen. Like, yes, we'll have people that are are
Speaker 3: our hype squad, and I will be one of them.
Speaker 3: I will enthusiastically support when someone's telling me about a project,
Speaker 3: but we got to do it for ourselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you. Yes, it's it's I
Speaker 2: don't know. It's just a really in the times or
Speaker 2: in the spaces where it seems quiet, where you get
Speaker 2: lonely as an artist, no matter what, like those those
Speaker 2: those those spaces there, and and remember in that prioritized
Speaker 2: play is also an audiobook. I heard, yeah he did.
Speaker 2: He did the audio.
Speaker 3: I did the audio. It was so much fun. I
Speaker 3: loved it. There are parts, I mean, like I you
Speaker 3: know you've read the book. I I wrote it very
Speaker 3: much in my voice, and so it made a lot
Speaker 3: of sense for me to read it. And I'm glad
Speaker 3: that I got the opportunity. I don't think that's always
Speaker 3: the case with authors. And I just had a blast.
Speaker 3: I was like, can I do this as a job,
Speaker 3: Like can I can I be reading other people's audio books?
Speaker 3: Because I think my enthusiasm comes across in the recording
Speaker 3: and there are things like I wrote like boo hiss,
Speaker 3: And then the director, the audio director was like, do
Speaker 3: you want to actually like hiss? And I was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I really, I really do want to actually just hiss
Speaker 3: into the microphone. So it was a blast. I loved it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my next iteration. I love. I love audio books.
Speaker 2: That actually became fascinated by my listening stats, Like I checked,
Speaker 2: I've been listening like audio books. It was on Audible
Speaker 2: since like twenty fifteen, and I checked my stats recently,
Speaker 2: so it's like eleven years. But for seven months of
Speaker 2: those eleven years, I was listening to the books, which
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's a pretty good waking time.
Speaker 3: Book.
Speaker 2: So I always enjoy and a lot of times I'll
Speaker 2: read it into the audio thing because like they you know, uh,
Speaker 2: so I get my next audio book is Rachel Verney
Speaker 2: reads Prioritized Play and hisses I uh, I'm I was excited.
Speaker 2: I think I had seen something there and I saw
Speaker 2: I was like, ah, because I always like, you know,
Speaker 2: it's not always feasible of what have you for you know,
Speaker 2: for them to produce an an audio book and and
Speaker 2: and of course there's an interactivity type of thing, you know,
Speaker 2: like you know, like like for me the tac tile,
Speaker 2: I want to experience both. But for me, the tac
Speaker 2: tile and the fact that like getting in the book
Speaker 2: and writing on it. And I would say too, like
Speaker 2: I found myself like really and I'm saying messing with
Speaker 2: like like a little bit more of like like coloring
Speaker 2: in like your illustrations and stuff like that. Just kind
Speaker 2: of like a lot of like tactile stuff that uh
Speaker 2: was very inviting and which is why every single listener
Speaker 2: is interested in art and interested in in play. You
Speaker 2: really need to get Prioritized play. Rachel Renee, I do
Speaker 2: have a big question, which is the titular name of
Speaker 2: the of the podcast and might be like a bit
Speaker 2: more encompassing and everything we talked about. But I'm asking
Speaker 2: you why is there something rather than nothing?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Why is why is there something rather than nothing? Oh?
Speaker 3: What a great? What a great question? Because we make something,
Speaker 3: we make we can we have the opportunity to make
Speaker 3: something out of every experience rather than allowing ourselves to
Speaker 3: not yeah, experience anything.
Speaker 2: Oh you got it in that short amount of time. Wow,
Speaker 2: that's incredible. That's absolutely incredible.
Speaker 3: I'm at the end.
Speaker 2: Ah sick. I mean six sink is beautiful thing perfectly
Speaker 2: time mic drop, I get it all. It's it's not
Speaker 2: for me. Usually it's like what are we doing with dart?
Speaker 2: We're playing and shooting the ship and talking about stuff.
Speaker 2: That's that's fun. Where do people find all all all
Speaker 2: all your stuff books or podcasts, et cetera.
Speaker 3: Yeah, uh so everything. You can get access to everything
Speaker 3: through my website, which is Rachel Renee dot com and
Speaker 3: it's both names are spelled the non traditional way, so
Speaker 3: it's r a c h a E l r e
Speaker 3: n a e dot com. And my Instagram is the
Speaker 3: same Rachel Renee, where I'm sharing little little clips and
Speaker 3: tips and stuff and just parts about my life, you know,
Speaker 3: living this prioritized play lifestyle. But you can get info
Speaker 3: about the book, about the podcast about my online community
Speaker 3: which is called the Juice Box because I talk about
Speaker 3: living a big, juicy life all around. Yeah, all on
Speaker 3: my website. So yeah, thanks so much.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Rachel in uh uh in. Even on
Speaker 2: the book with the with the picture of your outfit
Speaker 2: on fleek and everything, just everybody.
Speaker 3: Knows is one of the dresses that I put on
Speaker 3: when I'm trying to feel good.
Speaker 2: You got you got you got it, So everybody I
Speaker 2: I I just truly as you can tell, Rachel, it's
Speaker 2: it's it's great. It's great to talk with you. Thanks
Speaker 2: for putting this book out there. I think, you know,
Speaker 2: if people get out of pen or a pencil or
Speaker 2: or ask, you know, answer funny questions or with their
Speaker 2: friends and stuff, I think like people are just on
Speaker 2: the path of doing something different, even if they just
Speaker 2: want to like like disrupt the norm. I think a
Speaker 2: lot of things we talked about or is like the
Speaker 2: momentum of how you're supposed to live right and everybody
Speaker 2: has that, and what's the job and you're thinking, you think, oh, engineering,
Speaker 2: you know, and pays really well and you're smart and
Speaker 2: you can do it. So if you're smart, can do it.
Speaker 2: Then you think, well that's what I'm supposed to do,
Speaker 2: and then you're like, well I can do it. But
Speaker 2: there's so many other type of things. So yeah, thanks,
Speaker 2: thanks for thanks, thanks for your for your courage in
Speaker 2: in in the book and listeners. I can't recommend it enough.
Speaker 2: And again, as we talked about, there's even an audio
Speaker 2: version if that's your if that's your pleasure, absolutely prioritize play. Rachel,
Speaker 2: thanks for coming on to the podcast, Thanks for your
Speaker 2: podcast in creativity, and you rock. What can I say?
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. This was such a lovely conversation.
Speaker 3: Thank you for inviting me and and yeah getting to
Speaker 3: have just a fun conversation about it. It was perfect.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Hell yeah, talk to you soon.
Speaker 3: Okay, we'll do
Speaker 1: This is something rather than nothing.