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We're 22 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:00.039 gitted my eighteen plus terms and condition to play what 23 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:00.719 everyth fails. 24 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:11.560 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 25 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:14.680 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:22.040 written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every 27 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:25.760 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:30.040 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your 29 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:43.120 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 30 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:47.879 In nineteen seventy, Mary Petrie and Bill Sprout, two university 31 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:51.359 students in love, were murdered in a Columbus, Ohio apartment. 32 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:54.200 The crime was so brutal that drew comparisons to the 33 00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:57.519 Manson murders of the previous year. The case has never 34 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:01.719 been solved. Host Producerton Glanville and the sisters of the 35 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:05.799 two victims track down friends, witnesses to the original investigation, 36 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:09.719 and the Columbus Police to understand why the case remains 37 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:13.840 unsolved despite the existence of solid DNA evidence and the 38 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:16.719 fact that police say they have a person of interest. 39 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.599 Along the way, the three explore who really owns DNA 40 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:24.439 collected at crime scenes, families or police, and what it 41 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:27.479 takes to bring new attention to a fifty three year 42 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:31.240 old cold case. In an era when police departments are 43 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:35.199 struggling to attract new recruits. The podcast series that we 44 00:02:35.479 --> 00:02:38.919 are featuring this evening is Mary and Bill, an Ohio 45 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:42.639 cold case with my special guest, journalist and host and 46 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:46.599 producer of Mary and Bill, Justin Glanville. Welcome to the program, 47 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:49.479 and thank you very much for this interview. Justin Glanville. 48 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:50.840 Thank you, Dan for having me. 49 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:54.479 Thank you very much. This is a Idea Stream Public 50 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:59.800 Media production. Tell us about its connection to National Public Radio, 51 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:03.080 and tell us just a little bit about your connection 52 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:07.680 to Ideas Stream public media and your work as a journalist. 53 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:12.719 Sure so, Idea Stream Public Media is the NPR and 54 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:20.280 PBS actually affiliate station in northeast Ohio, and this podcast 55 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:24.680 is part of the NPR podcast network, so you can 56 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:28.680 go to the NPR website and find it there, in addition, 57 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:31.599 of course to all the usual places you get your podcasts. 58 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:35.199 Dan and Yeah, I work in public media, very proud 59 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:41.919 public radio reporter, and ordinarily I do very community driven stories. 60 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.520 I profile a lot of interesting people in the community, 61 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:48.759 really try to lift up unheard voices. And when I 62 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:52.199 was first starting to work on this series, I thought, Okay, 63 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:55.719 this is something really different from what I ordinarily do. 64 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:58.159 But as I got deeper and deeper into it, I've 65 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:02.319 realized that it's actually not because I'm lifting up voices 66 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:07.120 and perspectives of these two families right that want closure, 67 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.439 want answers in this fifty three year old cold case, 68 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:12.479 and working really closely with them to do it. 69 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.879 In the first episode, their deaths still hunt. You talk 70 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:19.480 about the origins of you coming to this story via 71 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:22.720 your parents. Tell us about this incredible story. 72 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:26.720 So my parents were at Ohio State when this happened. 73 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:28.920 My mom was a student there, so this is February 74 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:32.079 nineteen seventy. As you said, my mom was I believe 75 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:37.199 a junior, maybe a sophomore, and she was friends with Bill, 76 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:40.720 the male victim in this case, Bill Sprote. He was 77 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:44.879 the roommate of a guy named Tom McGuigan who was 78 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.279 dating one of my mom's roommates. Tom was spending the 79 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:52.399 night at my mom's apartment with his girlfriend, and the 80 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:55.720 night that this happened, my dad was also there visiting 81 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:59.240 from out of town. And the next day, when Tom, 82 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:03.079 Bill's room mate, went back home and discovered the bodies, 83 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:06.240 he called back to my mom's apartment and asked for 84 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:09.160 my dad to come over immediately because he had found 85 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:12.680 some dead bodies. My dad of course ran over to 86 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.480 the apartment. By the time he got there, it was 87 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.279 a crime scene. The police were there, and my dad 88 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.560 showing up the scene so shortly after the police did 89 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:25.439 looked very suspicious, and he was actually taken into custody, 90 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:29.040 put in a police cruiser and questioned as a suspect 91 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:31.360 in the case. And that actually wasn't the end of 92 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:33.959 it for him. He was they tracked him down at 93 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:36.199 college a few weeks later and questioned him further. 94 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:40.120 So it's a case that my parents talked about over. 95 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:42.319 The years as I was growing up as being this 96 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:46.839 awful thing that had happened in their youths. And you know, 97 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:49.480 the details Dan of this case, I'm sure we'll get into. 98 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:52.319 Some of them are really really nightmarish in a way 99 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:56.439 that is unusual, I think, even for a double homicide. 100 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:00.079 And I think just those details always stuck out my 101 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:04.279 parents' memories, right the wire coat hangers, the bowling ball, 102 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:08.759 the stabbing, the connection, the purported or suspected connection to 103 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.079 the Manson murders. All of these things just kind of 104 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:14.720 added up to this really dark and bloody memory in 105 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.480 my parents' past, and I just decided to start poking 106 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:19.079 into it about three and a half years ago. 107 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:22.639 Let's get back to those horrifying details that drew those 108 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:26.759 comparent students to the Manson murders. Tell us what police 109 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:31.360 found first, what the roommate, Tom McGuigan found, But police 110 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:34.240 then more fully examined the crime scene. 111 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:38.240 One of the things that Tom told reporters initially was 112 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:41.399 he thought he had seen three bodies, yes, and the apartment. 113 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.480 So that's how bloody and gruesome the scene was. Of course, 114 00:06:44.519 --> 00:06:47.439 there were only two. There was Mary and Bill, and 115 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:49.759 I should back up to say that these were both 116 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:53.800 scholars dan These were Bill was a graduate student in 117 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:58.480 French at Ohio State. Mary was an undergrad studying at 118 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:01.639 the College of Mount Saint Joseph and Cincinnati, also in French. 119 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:04.639 They had bonded over the French language and culture. Both 120 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:07.000 of them had traveled to France. They liked to be 121 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:11.439 by themselves, talking about brands and French culture. That's why 122 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:15.040 they weren't with my parents partying that night and Bill's roommate. 123 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:18.839 So these were very quiet people and what happened to 124 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:24.000 them was was just the polar opposite of quiet and peaceful. 125 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:24.920 They were. 126 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.319 First of all, they were both bludgeoned. It appears to 127 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.720 have been with a bowling ball. Now, my mom actually 128 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:35.519 remembers this bowling ball being in Bill's apartment. Bill and 129 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:37.959 Tom used it as an umbrella holder. It was kind 130 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:43.079 of a fun conversation piece. And the killer apparently used 131 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:45.800 the bowling ball to bludgeon both Mary and Bill to 132 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:48.720 the back of the head. It's believed that's what happened. First, 133 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:55.160 they were both also strangled. Bill was bound with wire hangers, 134 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.560 bound so tight that it was believed that the killer 135 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:01.560 used something like pliers to secure them in place. And 136 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:04.920 then they were both stabbed to the back, Bill sixteen 137 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:07.959 times to the back, Mary twenty three times to the back. 138 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:09.800 So, you know, I think just the. 139 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:14.160 Level of brutality is what drew those comparisons to the 140 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:17.959 Manson family murders Dan and also just the apparent randomness 141 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:21.439 of this attack. No one could think of anyone who 142 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:25.639 would have hated Bill or Mary or both enough to 143 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:26.560 do something like this. 144 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:30.120 Tell us the living conditions where they were in this apartment, 145 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:32.639 and what type of apartment building, how many units were 146 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:32.840 in it. 147 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:35.720 Sure, so this is is basically an old house that 148 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:39.879 was a Victorian house that was broken up into four apartments. 149 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:43.679 At that time, Bill and Tom lived on the second 150 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:46.360 floor in a two bedroom unit. I've actually been to 151 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:50.480 the building. It's been kind of reconfigured since nineteen seventy, 152 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:55.039 but I did get to visit the bedroom where Mary 153 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:58.200 was found. So Mary was found in a bedroom on 154 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:02.320 a bed, she was partially unclothed, and there was evidence 155 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:04.519 of sexual assault in her case. 156 00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:05.360 I didn't mention that. 157 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.960 And then Bill was actually found in a bathroom, face 158 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:12.240 down and bound. So they were found in two separate rooms. 159 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.360 Small apartment student housing. I guess at the time, I've 160 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:19.360 been told the neighborhood was rather dangerous. It was kind 161 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:23.279 of in transition to becoming a student neighborhood, and there 162 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:28.240 were reportedly, you know, shady characters wandering around. And I 163 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:31.320 should also mention you might be getting into this that 164 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:34.240 there was a serial rapist active in this neighborhood at 165 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:38.840 the time, and the leading theory about what potentially had 166 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:41.799 happened to Mary and Bill back in nineteen seventy at 167 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:44.279 the time of the original investigation was that this was 168 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:48.039 the work of the so called North Side rapist, who 169 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:52.600 would go to women's apartments and gain entry by saying 170 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:55.600 he needed to use the phone or posing as a 171 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:58.480 door to door salesman. There were no signs of forced 172 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.519 entry or struggle scene of the crime in Mary and 173 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.360 Bill's case, So that kind of fit with this of 174 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:09.039 this North Side rapist, that he may have gained entry 175 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:12.960 by lying. But what didn't fit and the police kind 176 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.039 of drifted further and further away from this theory of 177 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:18.519 the crime over the years was that the North Side 178 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:23.480 rapists did not typically kill or otherwise brutalize his victims. 179 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:25.679 So this was a real outlier in that regard. 180 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:30.360 So what was the initial early theories about what this 181 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:32.080 crime could be considered? 182 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:35.080 As I know, they investigated the roommate quite a bit, 183 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.279 Tom initially because just of his proximity to the crime, 184 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:42.879 the fact that he knew both Bill and Mary, but 185 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:47.600 newspaper accounts very early onward reporting that the police had 186 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:51.360 ruled him out of the suspect. Also investigated early on 187 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:55.399 was a cab driver who dropped Mary off at the apartment. 188 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.080 As I mentioned, Mary was a student at a college 189 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:00.960 in Cincinnati, and she got a right with some friends 190 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:05.919 from Cincinnati to outside Columbus that day and was then 191 00:11:06.279 --> 00:11:10.039 taken to Bill's apartment by cab. That cab driver was investigated, 192 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:13.279 but was able to show receipts that he had continued 193 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:15.919 his route later that evening, so he was ruled out. 194 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.960 And then, as I said, the investigation really started to 195 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:22.279 focus within those first couple of days on this theoretical 196 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.200 North Side rapist. And in fact, the police sketch that 197 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:29.679 was developed was based on women's accounts who'd been attacked 198 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:32.799 by the North Side rapist. And what those police sketches 199 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:35.279 show is a white man with dark hair and a 200 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:38.879 pockmarked face. That was kind of his distinguishing trait. So 201 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:42.240 that's really where the investigation focused. But I'll tell you Dan, 202 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.879 when I first started looking into this, I was really 203 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:49.159 surprised by how quickly the police seemed to have declared 204 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:52.600 the case cold. By the summer of nineteen seventy, they 205 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:55.080 were saying they had no really good leads and they 206 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:57.960 had basically given up on the case over being solved. 207 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:00.519 I wanted to ask what I was really cure after 208 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:05.240 listening to these episodes was what about the building itself? 209 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.240 You talk about a little bit later about the stab 210 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:12.679 wounds and the violent nature of these murders, and yet 211 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:15.440 there was no sign of struggle. There was no forced entry, 212 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:19.080 but there's also no one reported any screams or any 213 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:22.480 noises from the department. Tell us about the police investigation 214 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:27.240 if you know about it, about checking out the residents 215 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:29.120 of that apartment building that night. 216 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:32.679 Isn't that striking that no one reported hearing anything? That 217 00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:35.279 was something that really jumped out to me too. As 218 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:37.600 I mentioned, this was a four unit apartment building, so 219 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:40.840 not a huge number of apartments in the building. But 220 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:43.879 still this was a crime that would have taken some 221 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:46.840 time to carry out, right because of the number of 222 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:50.159 things that happens to them. Yes, and yes, it is 223 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.440 a Friday night on a college campus. Yes, probably the 224 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.080 students are out enjoying their Friday night. But still it 225 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:00.840 seems to me a real leap of faith on the 226 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.240 part of the killer to think that no one's going 227 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:06.360 to walk into the building and hear something going on. 228 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.759 I do know that the police did talk to the 229 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.240 other residents of the building. The only person, the only 230 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:16.240 tenant who and I've never been able to find this person, 231 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.600 And if anyone listening to this podcast knows who this 232 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:22.080 might be, I would love to talk to them. The 233 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.679 only person who reported seeing anything amiss was someone who 234 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:29.440 came home around ten pm that night and saw Bill's 235 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:33.440 apartment or a jar with a radio playing inside, but 236 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:37.000 did not investigate any further. So that is the only 237 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:42.000 eyewitness account of anyone who lived in the building that 238 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.159 I know of, and of course that seems to have 239 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:47.759 been a sighting of the apartment as it was after 240 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.120 the murders took place. I think we can pretty safely assume. 241 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:54.639 Let's talk now about the very initial things that you do, 242 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:57.200 the very first things that you do to be involved 243 00:13:57.279 --> 00:13:59.879 in this case. What are the very first things you do? 244 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:02.399 Well, the first thing I did was I looked online 245 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:05.039 to see if the case had ever been solved or 246 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:08.960 if there was even any hope express over the decades 247 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:10.879 that it would ever be solved. And I pretty quickly 248 00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:13.960 found out that no, it hadn't been solved. And as 249 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:16.639 I mentioned that, the police seemed to have given up 250 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:19.879 fairly quickly. This was a pretty big story for about 251 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:23.320 a week and then it just kind of disappeared, and 252 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:26.600 that was surprising to me. Yes, I did also find 253 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:28.960 out that there was some DNA evidence in the case, 254 00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:32.679 because back in the early two thousands there was a 255 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:35.320 Columbus detective who got interested in this case. So I 256 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:38.799 actually talked to briefly in the show who had lived 257 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:41.960 in the neighborhood at the time. And remember these murders, 258 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:44.519 got interested in the case, went back into the evidence 259 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:47.600 file and found some good DNA that he submitted to 260 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:51.360 a State of Fender database called CODIS, and there were 261 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:54.200 no hits, and so I knew the case was cold. 262 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:56.840 I knew there was some good DNA evidence, which meant 263 00:14:57.159 --> 00:15:00.120 to me in this day and age, when you I've 264 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:02.600 got dead DNA, there's a very good chance the case 265 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:05.080 can be solved because of all the methods we have now. 266 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:07.480 But then after that, what I did was I reached 267 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:11.720 out to Martha Petrie. So Martha Petrie is the identical 268 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:16.519 twin sister of Mary. I found her very easily just 269 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:21.519 googling around. She was a professor at that time. She's 270 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:25.279 now retired at a college in Michigan, and I sent 271 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:28.480 her an email asking her if she would be willing 272 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:30.600 to speak with me. I knew that if I was 273 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:33.279 going to do anything in depth on this case, I 274 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:37.200 needed to have at least Martha, if not someone also 275 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:41.440 from Bill's family. Kind of walking alongside me, and Martha 276 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.039 did get back to me very quickly and said she 277 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.720 would welcome the chance to talk about the case and 278 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:49.480 the title you mentioned in the first episode, their deaths 279 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.440 Still Haunt. That's a direct quote from her first email 280 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:54.960 response back to me. I found out later that she 281 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:57.440 did do kind of a background check on me and 282 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:00.440 made sure that I was a legitimate journalist and not 283 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:04.039 sort of a sensationalist or someone just out to exploit 284 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:06.519 the murders. But she was on board right away, and 285 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:08.799 that's when I thought, Okay, this is there's something here. 286 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:14.159 Tell us about your public records requests and homicide detective 287 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:15.039 Dana Krume. 288 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:17.080 One of the first things I did too was I 289 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:20.919 did ask for public records connected with the case, and 290 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:23.240 as I say, I think in the first episode, I 291 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:25.960 was surprised to get a call from out of the 292 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:30.240 blue from a detective Dana Chrome, who's now retired from 293 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:35.240 the Columbus Police, saying that he and his supervisor, Sergeant 294 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:38.360 Terry McConnell, we're going to be in Cleveland and they 295 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:42.519 wanted to drop off copies of the summary police reports 296 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:44.720 to me in person. Of course, I thought this was 297 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:47.720 very odd, you know, I'm not typically a crime reporter, 298 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:51.320 but I've never had a public records request result in, 299 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:55.559 you know, a government official or bureaucrat saying, hey, let 300 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:56.879 me get view these in person. 301 00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:58.639 Can we meet up? But that's what we did. 302 00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:01.200 We met up at a coffee shop and he and 303 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:04.720 Terry McConnell were dressed in suits of looking very cop like, 304 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:08.440 and they pushed paper copies of the summary police reports, 305 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.160 which are on our website if anyone wants to read them. 306 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:14.759 They're handwritten two page reports for both Mary and Bill 307 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.920 across the table to me, and I pretty quickly realized 308 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:21.720 why they wanted to meet up in person, and that 309 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.960 was because Number one, my dad was named in that 310 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:29.039 summary police report for Mary. So in a couple of 311 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:33.960 paragraphs of texts, my dad is named as a potential suspect. 312 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:38.680 And here's this justin Glanville emailing them from out of 313 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.359 the blue, sent decades later, wanting to talk about this case. 314 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.039 And what they also wanted was to meet with my 315 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:48.839 parents right then and there. They asked me to take 316 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:51.880 to my parents' house so they could interview them, and 317 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.319 I said, I don't feel comfortable doing that. I want 318 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:56.680 to at least give my parents some warning. So that's 319 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.559 kind of how that all unfurled. In the early days. 320 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:01.839 We're pretty open with me at. 321 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:05.799 First, but became more and more reticent to disclose information 322 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:10.000 about their investigation or the case. But fortunately, as I 323 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:13.079 went on, but fortunately Martha Petrie and to some extent 324 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:17.079 pat sprote Lollagher, Bill's sister kind of started to take 325 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.720 on that role of pushing things along and getting information 326 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:20.799 about the investigation. 327 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.519 Let's use this as an opportunity to hear these messages. 328 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:26.440 Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an 329 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:28.720 extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to 330 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:31.599 make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, 331 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:34.359 counting your steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. 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This meeting in Jackson, Michigan. 343 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:11.599 And this was right before COVID closed everything down. So 344 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:13.720 we're going back about three and a half years now. 345 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:16.359 My parents and I got in a car. I will 346 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:18.880 say I wasn't sure. This was another thing. I wasn't 347 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.440 sure if my parents wanted to get involved in all 348 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:26.240 of this again, but they really did. They really wanted 349 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:29.240 to meet Martha. They really wanted to share what they knew. 350 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:31.680 They didn't think they had a whole lot to offer, 351 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.119 but they were happy to share what they did know. 352 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:38.039 So we all got in the car, drove to Jackson, Michigan, 353 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:40.880 and we had probably a two or three hour meeting 354 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:46.160 Martha's dining table, and Martha was very open with us 355 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:50.680 about her emotions about the case, how she thought about it. 356 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:53.759 One thing she did tell us was that she really 357 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:57.039 hadn't heard much Dan in the at that time, fifty 358 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:00.079 years since this had happened from the police. And what 359 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.000 she told me later was she decided to move on 360 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:06.039 with her life at some point, you know, she got married, 361 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:09.160 had children, had a career, and this kind of just 362 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.680 became a thing that she didn't have the time or 363 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:14.559 emotional energy to focus on. But at the time that 364 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:17.440 we were reconnecting with her, she was moving into a 365 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:20.400 new phase in her life where she was she did 366 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.119 have more time, and she told us that she's always 367 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.319 wanted answers, and one of the things she's always wanted most, 368 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.200 more than a name, more than justice, is just to 369 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:33.960 understand why why did even though the answer probably wouldn't 370 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:38.200 be satisfactory to a sane person, but why did the 371 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.640 killer feel the need to commit crime of this atrocity 372 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:45.000 on her sister and her sister's boyfriend. 373 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.480 In terms of DNA or evidence in this case, what 374 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.519 did Martha know? What did she get from the police 375 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:54.160 In terms of information. 376 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:57.039 Martha knew that there was good DNA evidence in the 377 00:20:57.079 --> 00:20:59.720 case as well, and she knew where the evidence came from. 378 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.680 The DNA evidence came from the bedspread on which Mary 379 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:06.799 was found. It was semen found on the bedspread, So 380 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:10.359 she knew because she had been contacted by police back 381 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:12.759 then and also by a reporter who did a story. 382 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.319 Because back in about two thousand and six, or so 383 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:19.200 the police were really publicizing The Columbus police were really 384 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:21.519 publicizing this case a lot, really trying to get new 385 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.880 leads because of the detective that I mentioned taking an interest. 386 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:27.079 So there was a news story that was done and 387 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:30.599 Martha was interviewed and she knew that that DNA had 388 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.240 been submitted to again the statewide Defender database, but never 389 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:37.799 come up with any hits. Now, your listeners Dan probably 390 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:41.960 know that that's not particularly surprising because we're talking about 391 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:46.160 a cold case from nineteen seventy. DNA really only started 392 00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:49.440 to be collected at crime scenes as a routine matter 393 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:52.559 in the nineteen nineties, and I think around that same 394 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:55.400 time was also started to be collected from felons. So 395 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.960 we're talking about a gap of a good twenty five 396 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:01.839 years between when this crime happened and when DNA started 397 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:06.119 to be collected. So it's not a shocker that there 398 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:09.279 were no DNA hits. I will say that they have 399 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:14.920 submitted the DNA to some additional databases since then. Then 400 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:18.000 you listeners will learn about that if they listen to 401 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.640