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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 6: In nineteen seventy, Mary Petrie and Bill Sprout, two university
Speaker 6: students in love, were murdered in a Columbus, Ohio apartment.
Speaker 6: The crime was so brutal that drew comparisons to the
Speaker 6: Manson murders of the previous year. The case has never
Speaker 6: been solved. Host Producerton Glanville and the sisters of the
Speaker 6: two victims track down friends, witnesses to the original investigation,
Speaker 6: and the Columbus Police to understand why the case remains
Speaker 6: unsolved despite the existence of solid DNA evidence and the
Speaker 6: fact that police say they have a person of interest.
Speaker 6: Along the way, the three explore who really owns DNA
Speaker 6: collected at crime scenes, families or police, and what it
Speaker 6: takes to bring new attention to a fifty three year
Speaker 6: old cold case. In an era when police departments are
Speaker 6: struggling to attract new recruits. The podcast series that we
Speaker 6: are featuring this evening is Mary and Bill, an Ohio
Speaker 6: cold case with my special guest, journalist and host and
Speaker 6: producer of Mary and Bill, Justin Glanville. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 6: and thank you very much for this interview. Justin Glanville.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Dan for having me.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much. This is a Idea Stream Public
Speaker 6: Media production. Tell us about its connection to National Public Radio,
Speaker 6: and tell us just a little bit about your connection
Speaker 6: to Ideas Stream public media and your work as a journalist.
Speaker 7: Sure so, Idea Stream Public Media is the NPR and
Speaker 7: PBS actually affiliate station in northeast Ohio, and this podcast
Speaker 7: is part of the NPR podcast network, so you can
Speaker 7: go to the NPR website and find it there, in addition,
Speaker 7: of course to all the usual places you get your podcasts.
Speaker 7: Dan and Yeah, I work in public media, very proud
Speaker 7: public radio reporter, and ordinarily I do very community driven stories.
Speaker 7: I profile a lot of interesting people in the community,
Speaker 7: really try to lift up unheard voices. And when I
Speaker 7: was first starting to work on this series, I thought, Okay,
Speaker 7: this is something really different from what I ordinarily do.
Speaker 7: But as I got deeper and deeper into it, I've
Speaker 7: realized that it's actually not because I'm lifting up voices
Speaker 7: and perspectives of these two families right that want closure,
Speaker 7: want answers in this fifty three year old cold case,
Speaker 7: and working really closely with them to do it.
Speaker 6: In the first episode, their deaths still hunt. You talk
Speaker 6: about the origins of you coming to this story via
Speaker 6: your parents. Tell us about this incredible story.
Speaker 7: So my parents were at Ohio State when this happened.
Speaker 7: My mom was a student there, so this is February
Speaker 7: nineteen seventy. As you said, my mom was I believe
Speaker 7: a junior, maybe a sophomore, and she was friends with Bill,
Speaker 7: the male victim in this case, Bill Sprote. He was
Speaker 7: the roommate of a guy named Tom McGuigan who was
Speaker 7: dating one of my mom's roommates. Tom was spending the
Speaker 7: night at my mom's apartment with his girlfriend, and the
Speaker 7: night that this happened, my dad was also there visiting
Speaker 7: from out of town. And the next day, when Tom,
Speaker 7: Bill's room mate, went back home and discovered the bodies,
Speaker 7: he called back to my mom's apartment and asked for
Speaker 7: my dad to come over immediately because he had found
Speaker 7: some dead bodies. My dad of course ran over to
Speaker 7: the apartment. By the time he got there, it was
Speaker 7: a crime scene. The police were there, and my dad
Speaker 7: showing up the scene so shortly after the police did
Speaker 7: looked very suspicious, and he was actually taken into custody,
Speaker 7: put in a police cruiser and questioned as a suspect
Speaker 7: in the case. And that actually wasn't the end of
Speaker 7: it for him. He was they tracked him down at
Speaker 7: college a few weeks later and questioned him further.
Speaker 3: So it's a case that my parents talked about over.
Speaker 7: The years as I was growing up as being this
Speaker 7: awful thing that had happened in their youths. And you know,
Speaker 7: the details Dan of this case, I'm sure we'll get into.
Speaker 7: Some of them are really really nightmarish in a way
Speaker 7: that is unusual, I think, even for a double homicide.
Speaker 7: And I think just those details always stuck out my
Speaker 7: parents' memories, right the wire coat hangers, the bowling ball,
Speaker 7: the stabbing, the connection, the purported or suspected connection to
Speaker 7: the Manson murders. All of these things just kind of
Speaker 7: added up to this really dark and bloody memory in
Speaker 7: my parents' past, and I just decided to start poking
Speaker 7: into it about three and a half years ago.
Speaker 6: Let's get back to those horrifying details that drew those
Speaker 6: comparent students to the Manson murders. Tell us what police
Speaker 6: found first, what the roommate, Tom McGuigan found, But police
Speaker 6: then more fully examined the crime scene.
Speaker 7: One of the things that Tom told reporters initially was
Speaker 7: he thought he had seen three bodies, yes, and the apartment.
Speaker 7: So that's how bloody and gruesome the scene was. Of course,
Speaker 7: there were only two. There was Mary and Bill, and
Speaker 7: I should back up to say that these were both
Speaker 7: scholars dan These were Bill was a graduate student in
Speaker 7: French at Ohio State. Mary was an undergrad studying at
Speaker 7: the College of Mount Saint Joseph and Cincinnati, also in French.
Speaker 7: They had bonded over the French language and culture. Both
Speaker 7: of them had traveled to France. They liked to be
Speaker 7: by themselves, talking about brands and French culture. That's why
Speaker 7: they weren't with my parents partying that night and Bill's roommate.
Speaker 7: So these were very quiet people and what happened to
Speaker 7: them was was just the polar opposite of quiet and peaceful.
Speaker 3: They were.
Speaker 7: First of all, they were both bludgeoned. It appears to
Speaker 7: have been with a bowling ball. Now, my mom actually
Speaker 7: remembers this bowling ball being in Bill's apartment. Bill and
Speaker 7: Tom used it as an umbrella holder. It was kind
Speaker 7: of a fun conversation piece. And the killer apparently used
Speaker 7: the bowling ball to bludgeon both Mary and Bill to
Speaker 7: the back of the head. It's believed that's what happened. First,
Speaker 7: they were both also strangled. Bill was bound with wire hangers,
Speaker 7: bound so tight that it was believed that the killer
Speaker 7: used something like pliers to secure them in place. And
Speaker 7: then they were both stabbed to the back, Bill sixteen
Speaker 7: times to the back, Mary twenty three times to the back.
Speaker 3: So, you know, I think just the.
Speaker 7: Level of brutality is what drew those comparisons to the
Speaker 7: Manson family murders Dan and also just the apparent randomness
Speaker 7: of this attack. No one could think of anyone who
Speaker 7: would have hated Bill or Mary or both enough to
Speaker 7: do something like this.
Speaker 6: Tell us the living conditions where they were in this apartment,
Speaker 6: and what type of apartment building, how many units were
Speaker 6: in it.
Speaker 7: Sure, so this is is basically an old house that
Speaker 7: was a Victorian house that was broken up into four apartments.
Speaker 7: At that time, Bill and Tom lived on the second
Speaker 7: floor in a two bedroom unit. I've actually been to
Speaker 7: the building. It's been kind of reconfigured since nineteen seventy,
Speaker 7: but I did get to visit the bedroom where Mary
Speaker 7: was found. So Mary was found in a bedroom on
Speaker 7: a bed, she was partially unclothed, and there was evidence
Speaker 7: of sexual assault in her case.
Speaker 3: I didn't mention that.
Speaker 7: And then Bill was actually found in a bathroom, face
Speaker 7: down and bound. So they were found in two separate rooms.
Speaker 7: Small apartment student housing. I guess at the time, I've
Speaker 7: been told the neighborhood was rather dangerous. It was kind
Speaker 7: of in transition to becoming a student neighborhood, and there
Speaker 7: were reportedly, you know, shady characters wandering around. And I
Speaker 7: should also mention you might be getting into this that
Speaker 7: there was a serial rapist active in this neighborhood at
Speaker 7: the time, and the leading theory about what potentially had
Speaker 7: happened to Mary and Bill back in nineteen seventy at
Speaker 7: the time of the original investigation was that this was
Speaker 7: the work of the so called North Side rapist, who
Speaker 7: would go to women's apartments and gain entry by saying
Speaker 7: he needed to use the phone or posing as a
Speaker 7: door to door salesman. There were no signs of forced
Speaker 7: entry or struggle scene of the crime in Mary and
Speaker 7: Bill's case, So that kind of fit with this of
Speaker 7: this North Side rapist, that he may have gained entry
Speaker 7: by lying. But what didn't fit and the police kind
Speaker 7: of drifted further and further away from this theory of
Speaker 7: the crime over the years was that the North Side
Speaker 7: rapists did not typically kill or otherwise brutalize his victims.
Speaker 7: So this was a real outlier in that regard.
Speaker 6: So what was the initial early theories about what this
Speaker 6: crime could be considered?
Speaker 7: As I know, they investigated the roommate quite a bit,
Speaker 7: Tom initially because just of his proximity to the crime,
Speaker 7: the fact that he knew both Bill and Mary, but
Speaker 7: newspaper accounts very early onward reporting that the police had
Speaker 7: ruled him out of the suspect. Also investigated early on
Speaker 7: was a cab driver who dropped Mary off at the apartment.
Speaker 7: As I mentioned, Mary was a student at a college
Speaker 7: in Cincinnati, and she got a right with some friends
Speaker 7: from Cincinnati to outside Columbus that day and was then
Speaker 7: taken to Bill's apartment by cab. That cab driver was investigated,
Speaker 7: but was able to show receipts that he had continued
Speaker 7: his route later that evening, so he was ruled out.
Speaker 7: And then, as I said, the investigation really started to
Speaker 7: focus within those first couple of days on this theoretical
Speaker 7: North Side rapist. And in fact, the police sketch that
Speaker 7: was developed was based on women's accounts who'd been attacked
Speaker 7: by the North Side rapist. And what those police sketches
Speaker 7: show is a white man with dark hair and a
Speaker 7: pockmarked face. That was kind of his distinguishing trait. So
Speaker 7: that's really where the investigation focused. But I'll tell you Dan,
Speaker 7: when I first started looking into this, I was really
Speaker 7: surprised by how quickly the police seemed to have declared
Speaker 7: the case cold. By the summer of nineteen seventy, they
Speaker 7: were saying they had no really good leads and they
Speaker 7: had basically given up on the case over being solved.
Speaker 6: I wanted to ask what I was really cure after
Speaker 6: listening to these episodes was what about the building itself?
Speaker 6: You talk about a little bit later about the stab
Speaker 6: wounds and the violent nature of these murders, and yet
Speaker 6: there was no sign of struggle. There was no forced entry,
Speaker 6: but there's also no one reported any screams or any
Speaker 6: noises from the department. Tell us about the police investigation
Speaker 6: if you know about it, about checking out the residents
Speaker 6: of that apartment building that night.
Speaker 7: Isn't that striking that no one reported hearing anything? That
Speaker 7: was something that really jumped out to me too. As
Speaker 7: I mentioned, this was a four unit apartment building, so
Speaker 7: not a huge number of apartments in the building. But
Speaker 7: still this was a crime that would have taken some
Speaker 7: time to carry out, right because of the number of
Speaker 7: things that happens to them. Yes, and yes, it is
Speaker 7: a Friday night on a college campus. Yes, probably the
Speaker 7: students are out enjoying their Friday night. But still it
Speaker 7: seems to me a real leap of faith on the
Speaker 7: part of the killer to think that no one's going
Speaker 7: to walk into the building and hear something going on.
Speaker 7: I do know that the police did talk to the
Speaker 7: other residents of the building. The only person, the only
Speaker 7: tenant who and I've never been able to find this person,
Speaker 7: And if anyone listening to this podcast knows who this
Speaker 7: might be, I would love to talk to them. The
Speaker 7: only person who reported seeing anything amiss was someone who
Speaker 7: came home around ten pm that night and saw Bill's
Speaker 7: apartment or a jar with a radio playing inside, but
Speaker 7: did not investigate any further. So that is the only
Speaker 7: eyewitness account of anyone who lived in the building that
Speaker 7: I know of, and of course that seems to have
Speaker 7: been a sighting of the apartment as it was after
Speaker 7: the murders took place. I think we can pretty safely assume.
Speaker 6: Let's talk now about the very initial things that you do,
Speaker 6: the very first things that you do to be involved
Speaker 6: in this case. What are the very first things you do?
Speaker 7: Well, the first thing I did was I looked online
Speaker 7: to see if the case had ever been solved or
Speaker 7: if there was even any hope express over the decades
Speaker 7: that it would ever be solved. And I pretty quickly
Speaker 7: found out that no, it hadn't been solved. And as
Speaker 7: I mentioned that, the police seemed to have given up
Speaker 7: fairly quickly. This was a pretty big story for about
Speaker 7: a week and then it just kind of disappeared, and
Speaker 7: that was surprising to me. Yes, I did also find
Speaker 7: out that there was some DNA evidence in the case,
Speaker 7: because back in the early two thousands there was a
Speaker 7: Columbus detective who got interested in this case. So I
Speaker 7: actually talked to briefly in the show who had lived
Speaker 7: in the neighborhood at the time. And remember these murders,
Speaker 7: got interested in the case, went back into the evidence
Speaker 7: file and found some good DNA that he submitted to
Speaker 7: a State of Fender database called CODIS, and there were
Speaker 7: no hits, and so I knew the case was cold.
Speaker 7: I knew there was some good DNA evidence, which meant
Speaker 7: to me in this day and age, when you I've
Speaker 7: got dead DNA, there's a very good chance the case
Speaker 7: can be solved because of all the methods we have now.
Speaker 7: But then after that, what I did was I reached
Speaker 7: out to Martha Petrie. So Martha Petrie is the identical
Speaker 7: twin sister of Mary. I found her very easily just
Speaker 7: googling around. She was a professor at that time. She's
Speaker 7: now retired at a college in Michigan, and I sent
Speaker 7: her an email asking her if she would be willing
Speaker 7: to speak with me. I knew that if I was
Speaker 7: going to do anything in depth on this case, I
Speaker 7: needed to have at least Martha, if not someone also
Speaker 7: from Bill's family. Kind of walking alongside me, and Martha
Speaker 7: did get back to me very quickly and said she
Speaker 7: would welcome the chance to talk about the case and
Speaker 7: the title you mentioned in the first episode, their deaths
Speaker 7: Still Haunt. That's a direct quote from her first email
Speaker 7: response back to me. I found out later that she
Speaker 7: did do kind of a background check on me and
Speaker 7: made sure that I was a legitimate journalist and not
Speaker 7: sort of a sensationalist or someone just out to exploit
Speaker 7: the murders. But she was on board right away, and
Speaker 7: that's when I thought, Okay, this is there's something here.
Speaker 6: Tell us about your public records requests and homicide detective
Speaker 6: Dana Krume.
Speaker 7: One of the first things I did too was I
Speaker 7: did ask for public records connected with the case, and
Speaker 7: as I say, I think in the first episode, I
Speaker 7: was surprised to get a call from out of the
Speaker 7: blue from a detective Dana Chrome, who's now retired from
Speaker 7: the Columbus Police, saying that he and his supervisor, Sergeant
Speaker 7: Terry McConnell, we're going to be in Cleveland and they
Speaker 7: wanted to drop off copies of the summary police reports
Speaker 7: to me in person. Of course, I thought this was
Speaker 7: very odd, you know, I'm not typically a crime reporter,
Speaker 7: but I've never had a public records request result in,
Speaker 7: you know, a government official or bureaucrat saying, hey, let
Speaker 7: me get view these in person.
Speaker 3: Can we meet up? But that's what we did.
Speaker 7: We met up at a coffee shop and he and
Speaker 7: Terry McConnell were dressed in suits of looking very cop like,
Speaker 7: and they pushed paper copies of the summary police reports,
Speaker 7: which are on our website if anyone wants to read them.
Speaker 7: They're handwritten two page reports for both Mary and Bill
Speaker 7: across the table to me, and I pretty quickly realized
Speaker 7: why they wanted to meet up in person, and that
Speaker 7: was because Number one, my dad was named in that
Speaker 7: summary police report for Mary. So in a couple of
Speaker 7: paragraphs of texts, my dad is named as a potential suspect.
Speaker 7: And here's this justin Glanville emailing them from out of
Speaker 7: the blue, sent decades later, wanting to talk about this case.
Speaker 7: And what they also wanted was to meet with my
Speaker 7: parents right then and there. They asked me to take
Speaker 7: to my parents' house so they could interview them, and
Speaker 7: I said, I don't feel comfortable doing that. I want
Speaker 7: to at least give my parents some warning. So that's
Speaker 7: kind of how that all unfurled. In the early days.
Speaker 3: We're pretty open with me at.
Speaker 7: First, but became more and more reticent to disclose information
Speaker 7: about their investigation or the case. But fortunately, as I
Speaker 7: went on, but fortunately Martha Petrie and to some extent
Speaker 7: pat sprote Lollagher, Bill's sister kind of started to take
Speaker 7: on that role of pushing things along and getting information
Speaker 7: about the investigation.
Speaker 6: Let's use this as an opportunity to hear these messages.
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Speaker 6: You'll we just necessary DAILI where I lost the terms
Speaker 6: conditions eighteen plus Now you drove down to Jackson, Michigan
Speaker 6: to meet Mary's identical sister, Martha. But you also she
Speaker 6: also wanted to meet your parents as well. So tell
Speaker 6: us about this. This meeting in Jackson, Michigan.
Speaker 7: And this was right before COVID closed everything down. So
Speaker 7: we're going back about three and a half years now.
Speaker 7: My parents and I got in a car. I will
Speaker 7: say I wasn't sure. This was another thing. I wasn't
Speaker 7: sure if my parents wanted to get involved in all
Speaker 7: of this again, but they really did. They really wanted
Speaker 7: to meet Martha. They really wanted to share what they knew.
Speaker 7: They didn't think they had a whole lot to offer,
Speaker 7: but they were happy to share what they did know.
Speaker 7: So we all got in the car, drove to Jackson, Michigan,
Speaker 7: and we had probably a two or three hour meeting
Speaker 7: Martha's dining table, and Martha was very open with us
Speaker 7: about her emotions about the case, how she thought about it.
Speaker 7: One thing she did tell us was that she really
Speaker 7: hadn't heard much Dan in the at that time, fifty
Speaker 7: years since this had happened from the police. And what
Speaker 7: she told me later was she decided to move on
Speaker 7: with her life at some point, you know, she got married,
Speaker 7: had children, had a career, and this kind of just
Speaker 7: became a thing that she didn't have the time or
Speaker 7: emotional energy to focus on. But at the time that
Speaker 7: we were reconnecting with her, she was moving into a
Speaker 7: new phase in her life where she was she did
Speaker 7: have more time, and she told us that she's always
Speaker 7: wanted answers, and one of the things she's always wanted most,
Speaker 7: more than a name, more than justice, is just to
Speaker 7: understand why why did even though the answer probably wouldn't
Speaker 7: be satisfactory to a sane person, but why did the
Speaker 7: killer feel the need to commit crime of this atrocity
Speaker 7: on her sister and her sister's boyfriend.
Speaker 6: In terms of DNA or evidence in this case, what
Speaker 6: did Martha know? What did she get from the police
Speaker 6: In terms of information.
Speaker 7: Martha knew that there was good DNA evidence in the
Speaker 7: case as well, and she knew where the evidence came from.
Speaker 7: The DNA evidence came from the bedspread on which Mary
Speaker 7: was found. It was semen found on the bedspread, So
Speaker 7: she knew because she had been contacted by police back
Speaker 7: then and also by a reporter who did a story.
Speaker 7: Because back in about two thousand and six, or so
Speaker 7: the police were really publicizing The Columbus police were really
Speaker 7: publicizing this case a lot, really trying to get new
Speaker 7: leads because of the detective that I mentioned taking an interest.
Speaker 7: So there was a news story that was done and
Speaker 7: Martha was interviewed and she knew that that DNA had
Speaker 7: been submitted to again the statewide Defender database, but never
Speaker 7: come up with any hits. Now, your listeners Dan probably
Speaker 7: know that that's not particularly surprising because we're talking about
Speaker 7: a cold case from nineteen seventy. DNA really only started
Speaker 7: to be collected at crime scenes as a routine matter
Speaker 7: in the nineteen nineties, and I think around that same
Speaker 7: time was also started to be collected from felons. So
Speaker 7: we're talking about a gap of a good twenty five
Speaker 7: years between when this crime happened and when DNA started
Speaker 7: to be collected. So it's not a shocker that there
Speaker 7: were no DNA hits. I will say that they have
Speaker 7: submitted the DNA to some additional databases since then. Then
Speaker 7: you listeners will learn about that if they listen to
Speaker 7: the podcast. And the lack of hits in an increasing
Speaker 7: number of a funder databases points more and more towards
Speaker 7: something toward a direction that the police seemed to be
Speaker 7: leaning anyway in this case, which is that they no
Speaker 7: longer believe that this was a stranger who committed this crime.
Speaker 7: They no longer believe that this was a crime of opportunity.
Speaker 7: They really believe that this was someone who knew Mary
Speaker 7: or Bill or both. And that's the more that you
Speaker 7: strike out with a funder databases, the more that you're
Speaker 7: pointing toward potentially a person who is affluent, who is
Speaker 7: potentially white, who is not who is less likely to
Speaker 7: a prior arrest record. Right, So that really jibes with
Speaker 7: where the police theory of this crime has headed over
Speaker 7: the last few decades.
Speaker 6: Anyway, Well, tell us about this detective that's made statements
Speaker 6: at that time, and then what was their theory and
Speaker 6: what are the avenues that they explored in terms of
Speaker 6: potential suspects in is what looks like not great suspect
Speaker 6: pool in the first place.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so there was some and and again this is
Speaker 7: where the Columbus police have been pretty cagy with certainly me,
Speaker 7: but also with the sisters in terms of what actually
Speaker 7: they believe at this point.
Speaker 3: But okay, let's start with the nature of the crime itself.
Speaker 7: When you have a crime of this level of brutality,
Speaker 7: that right away points to someone who is not committing
Speaker 7: a crime of opportunity, right and when you really look
Speaker 7: at the coroner reports and the autopsy reports and photos,
Speaker 7: which by the way, I did not look at the
Speaker 7: photos myself, but one of our episodes we do have
Speaker 7: a medical examine or re review all of that evidence,
Speaker 7: it really becomes more and more apparent that there was
Speaker 7: a ritualistic and almost like a torture element to these crimes,
Speaker 7: because Mary and Bill would have been both dead by
Speaker 7: the time they started receiving the stab wounds. But not
Speaker 7: only that the stab wounds were inflicted in a very
Speaker 7: particular way. The wounds were clustered in both cases right
Speaker 7: underneath the shoulder blades, the right and left shoulder blades
Speaker 7: of Mary and Bill, So two groups of clusters right
Speaker 7: under the shoulder blades. And that sort of then gets
Speaker 7: into tip that the police receives in about two thousand
Speaker 7: and nine that the person who committed these crimes was
Speaker 7: someone who wanted to punish Mary, in particular for planning
Speaker 7: to spend the night with Bill. So let me just
Speaker 7: pause and let that sink in, because when I first
Speaker 7: saw that, I thought, really, Bill and Mary both came
Speaker 7: from very religious backgrounds. They both came from very Catholic backgrounds.
Speaker 7: Mary in particular, she had one brother who was a priest,
Speaker 7: she had another brother who was a chaplain. She had
Speaker 7: a sister who was a nun. So she was a
Speaker 7: very devout person from a very devout family. And this
Speaker 7: strange tip from back in two thousand and nine or
Speaker 7: so said that it was a religious figure in Mary's
Speaker 7: life who wanted to punish her for potentially considering pre
Speaker 7: marital sex.
Speaker 3: Essentially, so that becomes that, along.
Speaker 7: With sort of what appears to be the ritualistic nature
Speaker 7: of the stab wounds of particular, starts to point to
Speaker 7: someone with a personal vendetta against them. Martha has wondered
Speaker 7: about the specific number of stab wounds. Mary had eight
Speaker 7: stab wounds on one side and fifteen on the other.
Speaker 7: Martha has pointed out that that is the date of
Speaker 7: the assumption, where Mary Is ascends into heaven. So more
Speaker 7: and more the investigation has drifted toward there being potentially
Speaker 7: some religious aspect of these crimes, and that they were
Speaker 7: committed by someone known to Marion, Bill, and then finally
Speaker 7: the strangulation element. The medical examiner who examined these files
Speaker 7: told me that anytime there's strangulation in a murder case
Speaker 7: that automatically points to the possibility of someone with an
Speaker 7: intimate connection with the people involved.
Speaker 6: Jes this as an opportunity to stop. To hear from
Speaker 6: our sponsor. In nineteen seventy, two university students who had
Speaker 6: recently fallen in love were murdered in an apartment in Columbus, Ohio.
Speaker 6: Their names were Mary Petrie and Bill Sprout. The crime
Speaker 6: was so brutal he drew comparisons to the Manson family
Speaker 6: murders that shook the country less than a year earlier.
Speaker 6: Police received hundreds of tips, but within a few months
Speaker 6: the case went cold. Now a reporter and the sisters
Speaker 6: of the victims pieced together new forensic evidence, and here
Speaker 6: from Columbus police who say this case can still be
Speaker 6: solved fifty years later. Listen to Mary and Bill an
Speaker 6: Ohio cole case wherever you get your podcasts. Now. What
Speaker 6: it's always perplexed me was when the police have this
Speaker 6: idea that it's someone known to them, despite this religious
Speaker 6: figure theory that seems a little wild, certainly, but there
Speaker 6: was certain Protestant and Catholic rivalry in many many cities.
Speaker 6: But again, to get to this sort of violence is incredible.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, And again I think this comes back to the timeline.
Speaker 4: Dan.
Speaker 7: It's another thing that the police have been saying to
Speaker 7: more recently is that they believe that Bill's murder was
Speaker 7: already in progress at the time that Mary walked in
Speaker 7: to the apartment.
Speaker 3: Does that mean that Bill was actually the target of
Speaker 3: this attack.
Speaker 7: That doesn't seem to drive with this other theory that
Speaker 7: the police seemed to have about the killer wanting to
Speaker 7: punish Mary. But it also is odd because there's a
Speaker 7: very short window when Bill is alone in the apartment. So,
Speaker 7: according to the police report, Tom McGuigan, Bill's roommate, leaves
Speaker 7: the apartment at about six pm after having been there
Speaker 7: when Mary calls to say she was taking a cab
Speaker 7: from where she was dropped off. Mary is then dropped
Speaker 7: off at six thirty pm at the apartment and walks
Speaker 7: in by herself. So if those our accounts are correct,
Speaker 7: that's a very short window when Bill is alone at
Speaker 7: the apartment. The other thing that's odd is that Mary
Speaker 7: herself didn't know she had a ride to Columbus or
Speaker 7: would be showing up in Columbus until mid afternoon on Friday,
Speaker 7: February twenty seventh, which is when the murders took place.
Speaker 7: So for word to have traveled somehow to Columbus that
Speaker 7: Mary was coming, if indeed she was the target in
Speaker 7: that short amount of time between when she knew and
Speaker 7: when she showed up, is again very odd to me.
Speaker 7: And who would have known that? Who would have known
Speaker 7: that she was coming? So there's a lot of mysterious
Speaker 7: things when you really start to look into the timeline
Speaker 7: of this case that just really don't seem to add
Speaker 7: up unless it was someone just very very close to
Speaker 7: one or both of them.
Speaker 6: What about the idea of one or two of the
Speaker 6: residents of that building being familiar to person like Bill,
Speaker 6: not necessarily a friend of Bill, but being familiar enough
Speaker 6: to be able to be in that apartment and for
Speaker 6: whatever reason the motivation of rage and revenge, jealousy, sexual
Speaker 6: desires for Mary. Did police check out all of the
Speaker 6: other residents because it seems to be that they would
Speaker 6: fit the profile of the person potentially, You.
Speaker 7: Know, I don't I have not seen the full police file.
Speaker 7: The police would not allow me to see the full
Speaker 7: file because it's an active investigation, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 7: So I don't know to what extent the tenets of
Speaker 7: the building were investigated at that time. But again, the
Speaker 7: fact that the police, at least publicly, we're talking so
Speaker 7: much about this Norse rapist being there their preferred suspects
Speaker 7: back then tells me that unless they were lying about
Speaker 7: that and that was all a ruse to the fleck
Speaker 7: from the real direction of the investigation, it tells me
Speaker 7: that they weren't really leaning toward a tenant being the
Speaker 7: person who did this. And I will say, this is
Speaker 7: a building that had a lot of points of entry.
Speaker 7: It still does. When I visit the building in episode two,
Speaker 7: I find out that there's multiple entrances. On the back
Speaker 7: of the building, there's a front entrance. I talked to
Speaker 7: somebody who lived there at the time who said the
Speaker 7: building was pretty much already always open, So certainly the
Speaker 7: tenants could have been in there without breaking in, but
Speaker 7: it seems like it might have also been pretty possible
Speaker 7: for someone who didn't live there to get into the
Speaker 7: building as well.
Speaker 6: Can you discuss this idea that there was some kind
Speaker 6: of people from France connection to men, and.
Speaker 7: The police have told us that that is something they've
Speaker 7: investigated over the years. So apparently, Mary was scheduled to
Speaker 7: visit with two Frenchman who she had met during one
Speaker 7: of her study abroad trips to France the monday after
Speaker 7: her visit with Bill. The police were looking for those
Speaker 7: Frenchmen to reinterview the time this case was kind of
Speaker 7: being actively reinvestigated around two thousand and nine, even though
Speaker 7: they had been dismissed as real suspects.
Speaker 3: Back at the time of the investigation.
Speaker 7: I did talk to a number of Mary's friends, including
Speaker 7: her roommate who traveled extensively with her in France, and
Speaker 7: she does not remember any shady characters who would have
Speaker 7: potentially wanted to follow Mary back to the States and
Speaker 7: kill her, although she did relate a story of the
Speaker 7: two of them getting a hitching a ride with a
Speaker 7: man who took an interest in Mary, a Frenchman who's
Speaker 7: like an interest in Mary and later visited her at
Speaker 7: college who I think it's possible that person was her killer.
Speaker 7: Probably not, but I think it does point too. This
Speaker 7: was a young woman who was apparently very warm and
Speaker 7: trusting and may have met someone who would have potentially
Speaker 7: had ill intentions toward her while she was in France alone.
Speaker 6: You have a plan with Martha for you to be
Speaker 6: able to speak to police, and as well as her,
Speaker 6: tell us about this plan and how it works out
Speaker 6: and the meeting.
Speaker 7: We finally do meet in person for an in depth
Speaker 7: conversation with the police, and that conversation takes place at
Speaker 7: Martha's dining table the first time, the same place where
Speaker 7: I met her three years ago with my parents, and
Speaker 7: the meeting is as puzzling as it is illuminating. There's
Speaker 7: a lot of details that people will hear when they
Speaker 7: listen to the podcast, but you know, I will say that.
Speaker 7: And one thing that's really striking is that from an
Speaker 7: early stage of my poking into this case, the police
Speaker 7: were telling me, and this is even before Martha gets
Speaker 7: heavily involved, that they have a person of interest just
Speaker 7: from going back through the case file. And they repeated
Speaker 7: that when I did, when Martha and I did sit
Speaker 7: down and talk to them for an interview. What they
Speaker 7: specifically say is that they don't have a name for
Speaker 7: this person, but they know that this person is a man,
Speaker 7: and that there are two other people that they want
Speaker 7: to rule out before they take additional steps to submit
Speaker 7: more DNA in the case. So that's when I go
Speaker 7: down this kind of rabbit hole of really trying to
Speaker 7: understand the process of submitting DNA evidence in cold cases.
Speaker 7: And it's when I talked to James Renner and find
Speaker 7: out about the Portlite project and these other efforts to
Speaker 7: bring resolution to cold cases through DNA. It is a
Speaker 7: maze of regulations and hoops that you have to jump through,
Speaker 7: and I learned a lot about that through the course
Speaker 7: of working on this show.
Speaker 6: You do discuss genetic genealogy versus another technique for a search.
Speaker 6: Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 7: And you know, going into this, I knew about forensic
Speaker 7: petic genealogy and how it had led to breakthroughs and
Speaker 7: really famous cases such as the Golden State killer, right,
Speaker 7: And I thought, hey, if there's and admittedly this might
Speaker 7: be a little naive, but I thought, hey, if you've
Speaker 7: got good DNA evidence in a case at this point
Speaker 7: in time, you're going to be able to find that
Speaker 7: person through forensic genealogy. What I later found out is
Speaker 7: that and there's a big asterisk here, which I'll get
Speaker 7: into after I explain this, But if for police departments
Speaker 7: who want to use federal funding to pursue forensic genetic genealogy,
Speaker 7: so let me just explain what that is. First of all,
Speaker 7: that's where you're submitting DNA to labs where they then
Speaker 7: take that DNA and try to match it to profiles
Speaker 7: that people have voluntarily uploaded to ancestry sites like jedmatch.
Speaker 7: The really famous ancestry sites like ancestryd dot com and
Speaker 7: twenty three and meet don't allow this, but there are
Speaker 7: a few smaller ones that do, and that so you're
Speaker 7: casting a really wide net to find sometimes direct relative
Speaker 7: is more often cousins, second cousins, third cousins, and then
Speaker 7: developing a family tree that then gives you some names
Speaker 7: that you can go investigate and try to get DNA
Speaker 7: from those people to try to come up with a
Speaker 7: direct match. But if you're going to use federal funding
Speaker 7: to pursue that route, you first have to exhaust your
Speaker 7: other options essentially for DNA matching. And what I found
Speaker 7: out is that there's first of all, every state has
Speaker 7: its own offender database. In Ohio, it's called CODIS, and again,
Speaker 7: it's a database of either DNA that's collected at crime
Speaker 7: scenes or collected from convicted felons, and you have to
Speaker 7: make sure that you have the best possible DNA profile
Speaker 7: uploaded to that database. And one thing that seems to
Speaker 7: have happened here is that because the DNA was in
Speaker 7: this case was submitted fifteen years ago initially to that database,
Speaker 7: it appears that they had to go back and get
Speaker 7: a better sample using current election techniques and start that
Speaker 7: process over again. If you don't get any hits there,
Speaker 7: then you can do something called a familial DNA search.
Speaker 7: That's where you're looking for male relatives of a male perpetrator.
Speaker 7: We do know that in this case, the police's person
Speaker 7: of interest is a male, so they were able to
Speaker 7: use this because it's all based on the Y chromosome. Then,
Speaker 7: if you don't get any hits on the femalial search,
Speaker 7: that's when you can then use federal funding to try
Speaker 7: a forensic genetic genealogy search. Now, the big asterisk here
Speaker 7: is that if you don't use federal funding, you don't
Speaker 7: have to jump through those hoops. And in episode seven
Speaker 7: of this podcast, I talked to a woman whose sister
Speaker 7: was murdered thirty three years ago, who they skipped right
Speaker 7: to forensic genetic genealogy using private funding from the Porti
Speaker 7: Lay Project, which is a nonprofit in Ohio that specifically
Speaker 7: funds forensic genealogy to solve cold cases. And they had
Speaker 7: they had a name in less than a year. So
Speaker 7: if you're cheap using to use private funding to pay
Speaker 7: for forensic genealogy, you can skip through some of those hoops.
Speaker 7: And I still sometimes wonder why that couldn't have been
Speaker 7: done here. And you mentioned in your intro who really
Speaker 7: does own or control what happens with DNA found at
Speaker 7: crime scenes? I wonder why the sisters don't have more
Speaker 7: of a say and how and when that DNA is tested,
Speaker 7: especially since they've been waiting so long for answers. So
Speaker 7: that's one unexpected question that came up for me and
Speaker 7: working on this case.
Speaker 6: It's very interesting. You cite a case March second, nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy two, Barbara Devlin White and an unsolved case, but
Speaker 6: just a connection to Mary is a eerie coincidence. Can
Speaker 6: you tell us about that?
Speaker 7: Yeah, this was a classmate of Mary's at her small
Speaker 7: All women's Catholic college in Cincinnati, who apparently lived just
Speaker 7: down the hall from Mary. Wasn't a close friend, but
Speaker 7: knew her. Martha has told me, and I didn't put
Speaker 7: this in the podcast because I've never been able to
Speaker 7: corroborate it, but Martha has told me that Mary asked
Speaker 7: Barbara Davlin to design an engagement ring for her and Bill.
Speaker 7: At any rate, she was found shot to death in
Speaker 7: a Cincinnati parking garage, almost exactly two years after the
Speaker 7: murders of Mary Petri and Bill Sprote. It was reported
Speaker 7: at the time that the police were looking into a
Speaker 7: link between her murder and the murder of Mary in particular,
Speaker 7: but that never seemed to go anywhere, at least that
Speaker 7: I ever saw publicly reported, and the police, when we
Speaker 7: did interview them, they did not indicate that they felt
Speaker 7: like there was any link between those two cases. At
Speaker 7: this point, they are very different in their circumstances, and
Speaker 7: that Barbara Davlin White was robbed and shot to death,
Speaker 7: Mary and Bill do not appear to have been really
Speaker 7: robbed of anything significant, and of course we've already talked
Speaker 7: about the ways they were killed. There also was no
Speaker 7: sexual assault reported in the case of Barbara Devin Loit.
Speaker 7: So it's possible it was coincidental, but if it is
Speaker 7: a coincidence, it's a very yeary one and that case,
Speaker 7: as you said, remains unsolved as well.
Speaker 6: Now Martha is assured by police that they will get
Speaker 6: back to her at that initial meeting. Tell us about
Speaker 6: that promise.
Speaker 7: It's been a real rollercoaster ride for Martha with the police.
Speaker 7: Martha in particular, there are times when they're really responsive
Speaker 7: and times when she has a really hard time getting
Speaker 7: responses from them back. And you'll hear a lot more
Speaker 7: about that journey in the seventh episode. But I think
Speaker 7: it's a difficult situation I think Dan that survivors find
Speaker 7: themselves in and I really got to witness this firsthand
Speaker 7: through working on this podcast, and that they really they
Speaker 7: don't want to They want to be good partners to
Speaker 7: the police, right and they don't want to be quote
Speaker 7: unquote annoying or off putting to the police. But at
Speaker 7: the same time, they want to be persistent and they
Speaker 7: deserve answers. So it's a really fine line I think
Speaker 7: that survivors' families have to walk in terms of reaching
Speaker 7: out to police. And I've also reflected on just the
Speaker 7: generational differences. You know, I think back in nineteen seventy
Speaker 7: piece people viewed the police very differently than they do now.
Speaker 7: I think there was, in general, probably a lot more
Speaker 7: trust in the police, and I think back then you
Speaker 7: just kind of trusted that the police were doing what
Speaker 7: they were supposed to be doing. But I think what
Speaker 7: we've found out in the course of working on this
Speaker 7: is that you really do Arthur really has had to
Speaker 7: be persistent and really had to be the one to
Speaker 7: keep calling back and really had to be the advocate.
Speaker 7: And I don't think I can I say this for certain, no,
Speaker 7: but I don't think the case would be as far
Speaker 7: along as it is if it weren't for her advocating
Speaker 7: for the police to pay attention.
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Speaker 6: Degains now tell us about Bill's sister, Patricia Lolager Patricia,
Speaker 6: Bill's sister, and the teaming up with Martha, Mary's sister,
Speaker 6: and yourself.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so pat pat lives outside Philadelphia, so she's a
Speaker 7: little further away from me. I live in Cleveland, and
Speaker 7: Martha lives in Michigan, So I think partly by virtue
Speaker 7: of her just being a little further away geographically, she
Speaker 7: was not as closely involved at first, but he came
Speaker 7: more and more so as we kept working. And one
Speaker 7: of the things that was most gratifying to see happen
Speaker 7: as a result of working on this podcast is that
Speaker 7: the two sisters got to reunite and be back in
Speaker 7: touch after fifty three years. And the way that the
Speaker 7: podcast ends is that they are and I'm not, you know,
Speaker 7: giving away the ending here, but they are they're presenting
Speaker 7: a united front to the police at this point in
Speaker 7: terms of wanting answers, and I think that's only bringing
Speaker 7: more urgency to the need for this to finally be solved.
Speaker 7: I mean, the loved ones in this case are now
Speaker 7: in their mid seventies, you know.
Speaker 3: And even though.
Speaker 7: Pat has said she has accepted that she might go
Speaker 7: to her grave never having answers, just like her parents did,
Speaker 7: I don't think that should happen, you know. I think
Speaker 7: we have the evidence we need to solve this case.
Speaker 7: And yeah, and I think the sisters have really their
Speaker 7: trajectory has been toward believing that as well as a
Speaker 7: result of working on this, and one of the things
Speaker 7: they say is that they hope that they can inspire
Speaker 7: other people who have cold cases in their backgrounds to
Speaker 7: do what they're doing, advocate for those cases to be solved.
Speaker 3: That's really what it takes in this day and age.
Speaker 6: What specifically are the sisters urging the Columbus Police.
Speaker 7: To do in this case, They're urging the police to
Speaker 7: jump to forensic genetic genealogy. I think they understand the
Speaker 7: hurdles and the requirements that go along with federal funding
Speaker 7: that we've already discussed, but you know, we're I think
Speaker 7: one of the things that we've discovered is that it's
Speaker 7: really not a huge amount of money. We're talking here
Speaker 7: Dan to do a forensic genetic genealogy analysis. From everything
Speaker 7: I've heard, it's five six thousand dollars. Martha has said
Speaker 7: I'll pay the five, five or six thousand dollars. So specifically,
Speaker 7: I think they're asking for that. I think more generally,
Speaker 7: what they're asking for is more transparency and a little
Speaker 7: bit less tight control over exactly how this case is
Speaker 7: being investigated and solved. It really feels like the police
Speaker 7: who happen to be working on this case right now
Speaker 7: really want very tight control over how this case is investigated.
Speaker 7: And while I think we're all sympathetic to that on
Speaker 7: one level, the police have their protocols, they don't want
Speaker 7: to screw things up. I also think there's a big
Speaker 7: gap between the stance that they're taking, which is fairly opaque,
Speaker 7: and one where there's just a little bit more transparency
Speaker 7: and a little bit more cooperation and open communication.
Speaker 6: Who is Mary Weston within the Attorney General's office and
Speaker 6: what did she have to say when you discussed this
Speaker 6: case with her?
Speaker 3: Mary Weston really helped me Understan and.
Speaker 7: Why the police are taking the route they're taking with
Speaker 7: the DNA from a governmental point of view. So she
Speaker 7: was really the one who helped me understand all of
Speaker 7: these hurdles that you have to go through and all
Speaker 7: these other databases that you have to check if you're
Speaker 7: going to use federal funding for forensic genetic genealogy. You know,
Speaker 7: her point was basically, you might as well cross these
Speaker 7: c's and doty's eyes because you know, these are things
Speaker 7: that are available to police without having to take the
Speaker 7: extra expense of doing forensic genealogy. So she really helped
Speaker 7: me understand kind of the inside view of how prosecutors
Speaker 7: and police will approach cold cases when it comes to DNA.
Speaker 6: What was their explanation for your suggestion that they could
Speaker 6: use a private agency like Porchlite be able to do
Speaker 6: this and no expense. What was their explanation for not
Speaker 6: going with and cooperating with somebody that you like you
Speaker 6: have said they just wanted to help solve this case
Speaker 6: the sisters and yourself.
Speaker 7: That has been something that we haven't gotten an incredibly
Speaker 7: clear answer to. And I do know that Porchlite did
Speaker 7: offer to pay for forensic genetic genealogy in this case
Speaker 7: more than two years ago, so they turn they were
Speaker 7: turned down by the Columbus Police. But the Columbus police
Speaker 7: told me and Martha was that they didn't need the
Speaker 7: money and that they wanted to handle the investigation themselves.
Speaker 7: So exactly why they want such tight control is I
Speaker 7: don't know the answer. Why they want to be able
Speaker 7: to control this case and the investigation and the steps
Speaker 7: that they're taking.
Speaker 3: Essentially, you have.
Speaker 6: Any idea or any speculation on the two people that
Speaker 6: they needed to eliminate, any idea on who might be
Speaker 6: the first person or one of the people that police
Speaker 6: needed to eliminate as a suspect in this case.
Speaker 3: Yes, I know.
Speaker 7: One of the people appears to have been Tom in
Speaker 7: Bill Sporte's roommate, because the police visited Tom at his
Speaker 7: house I think it was last summer and requested DNA
Speaker 7: from Tom. He willingly gave it and also reinterviewed him,
Speaker 7: and he appears to have been one of the people
Speaker 7: that the police wanted to get DNA from. But the
Speaker 7: other person, we're not sure who that person might have been.
Speaker 6: Now, you talked about what Martha and Pat and yourself
Speaker 6: really wanted from this case to move forward, and so
Speaker 6: you discussed that all in the episodes, all of the
Speaker 6: work and the research that you all do for this
Speaker 6: in this regard in this case, and what is their
Speaker 6: level of sort of confidence that this thing could someday
Speaker 6: be solved.
Speaker 7: That too, has really vacillated over the years that we've
Speaker 7: worked on this. By the end of our time working
Speaker 7: together up to this point, they feel they reported feeling
Speaker 7: very confident, but that can change. I've discovered on a
Speaker 7: day to day basis based on how responsive the police
Speaker 7: are being or not being to especially Martha's questions. But
Speaker 7: I think where they end up in the podcast is
Speaker 7: at a very confident place, and I think if people
Speaker 7: listen to the podcast, they will probably also end up
Speaker 7: in a very confident place. I mean, but I will
Speaker 7: also say the police have told us Dan from practically
Speaker 7: day one that they believe the case can be solved
Speaker 7: and they have a person of interest. So I guess
Speaker 7: we have tried to take that on board and believe that,
Speaker 7: but at times it feels hard to believe because of
Speaker 7: how long it's taking from the time they told us that.
Speaker 7: I mean, I know, we're talking about a cold case
Speaker 7: that's been cold for fifty three years now, and so
Speaker 7: three years in the span of fifty three years is
Speaker 7: not a long amount, but it's also but it's a
Speaker 7: long time, and just in absolute terms, I think to
Speaker 7: be told, yes we think this is solvable, Yes we
Speaker 7: have a person of interest, but that nothing happens. So
Speaker 7: it's it's been a real paradox, I think in terms
Speaker 7: of the information that we're being given. So you know,
Speaker 7: what exactly is the hold up that is still that
Speaker 7: is still unclear.
Speaker 6: It is clear that persistence and advocacy, the advocacy of
Speaker 6: these survivors is a real big asset, isn't it.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, And I will say too that I was surprised
Speaker 7: when I first started looking into this case. We've talked
Speaker 7: about how nightmarish the details are, and it took me
Speaker 7: to a pretty dark place at first, you know, that
Speaker 7: it was possible that these two lovely, innocent people could
Speaker 7: be so b really murdered.
Speaker 3: Over the course of.
Speaker 7: Working on this, I will say that it's been a
Speaker 7: surprisingly uplifting experience because of the progress that we've been
Speaker 7: able to make on the case and for the reasons
Speaker 7: that you just named, the advocacy of the sisters, And
Speaker 7: I think that there also the sisters also talk about
Speaker 7: something very very deep and profound in the last episode too,
Speaker 7: and that this podcast has been a chance for them
Speaker 7: to look at a very very dark chapter in their
Speaker 7: past and really confront it and engage with it and
Speaker 7: talk about it in a way that they're not ordinarily
Speaker 7: invited to do. You know, as a society, we don't
Speaker 7: make a lot of space for talking about these dark,
Speaker 7: troubling things. And I think one thing I've realized is
Speaker 7: that as kind of maligned as the true crime genre is,
Speaker 7: sometimes I think that that's one of the things.
Speaker 3: That it does or can do.
Speaker 7: And my hope we did in this case by involving
Speaker 7: the sisters so closely, is just kind of create this
Speaker 7: space for examining something dark and hopefully inspiring other people
Speaker 7: to do that too, so that that pain doesn't have
Speaker 7: to be locked up inside people without a release.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I want to applaud you for the incredible work
Speaker 6: you and your team have done to create this podcast series,
Speaker 6: and I want to thank you very much for coming
Speaker 6: on and telling us about this incredible series. You have
Speaker 6: a fantastic website for this podcast series. Can you tell
Speaker 6: us about that?
Speaker 7: Absolutely, And it's ideastream dot org slash maryon Bill. What
Speaker 7: we were really striving to do, Dan is make it
Speaker 7: a place where people could learn more about the case,
Speaker 7: look at primary documents in the case. We have the
Speaker 7: original summary police reports posted there, the coroner's reports, a
Speaker 7: lot of photos of maryon Bill. Nothing graphic, of course.
Speaker 7: We don't have the autopsy photos or anything like that. Yes,
Speaker 7: but it's really touching to see these two people living
Speaker 7: their lives and being the wonderful people they are. I'll say,
Speaker 7: like putting together the website and seeing photos of these
Speaker 7: two young people, it was a very moving experience for me,
Speaker 7: and I'd really invite people to go visit it, just
Speaker 7: as sort of a way of honoring maryon Bill. There's
Speaker 7: also a tip line for anyone who has information they
Speaker 7: want to show with us and a time, a very
Speaker 7: detailed timeline of the case, and.
Speaker 6: They can listen to this podcast that wherever they listen
Speaker 6: to podcasts.
Speaker 7: Can't they That's right wherever you listen to podcasts. And
Speaker 7: it's also you can stream episodes on the website itself
Speaker 7: if you want to look through all those documents while
Speaker 7: you listen.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you very much, justin Glanville for
Speaker 6: coming on and talking about Mary and Bill and Ohio
Speaker 6: cole Case. Thank you so much for this interview, and
Speaker 6: you have a great evening and good night.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Dan, it's been an honor. Thank you.
Speaker 6: Good night,