Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we pursue whism
Speaker 1: of the past between primary and secondary worlds. I'm your host, AREW. Snyder,
Speaker 1: and I am always grateful for your company. So obviously
Speaker 1: we're doing things a little bit differently here, I guess
Speaker 1: I should say obviously if you are watching the video
Speaker 1: on this because I've been posting our interviews to YouTube
Speaker 1: for a little while now, this is the first time
Speaker 1: I'm recording a video intro, and so if you are
Speaker 1: listening to this on the Mythic Mind podcast, then know
Speaker 1: that you can watch the full video as well. I
Speaker 1: leave a link to that in the show notes, and
Speaker 1: so go ahead and subscribe to my YouTube channel. And
Speaker 1: if you're watching this on YouTube, then know that you
Speaker 1: can also listen to this as a podcast, and so
Speaker 1: if that's of interest to you, then make sure that
Speaker 1: you also subscribe to the Mythic Mind Legacy podcast on
Speaker 1: any podcast app of your choice. Well, today I come
Speaker 1: to you from the plaines of Rohan, as you can
Speaker 1: see if you're watching the video, so that we can
Speaker 1: discuss the War of the Row. Herem the recent Lord
Speaker 1: of the Rings, anime that takes place within the Jackson
Speaker 1: verse looking at the story of hellm haammer Hand and
Speaker 1: some of the story that surrounds his life, as we
Speaker 1: get in the short appendix at the end of Lord
Speaker 1: of the Rings. Now, I was fairly skeptical going into
Speaker 1: this movie. I was not really expecting it to be great.
Speaker 1: In fact that I was actually expecting it to be
Speaker 1: pretty bad. But I just I like to know what's
Speaker 1: going on in the world of Tolkien media, and so
Speaker 1: I just I wanted to experience it. And I'm someone
Speaker 1: who wants these things to succeed. Even though I may
Speaker 1: have some criticisms, I go into these wanting to enjoy them,
Speaker 1: and fortunately that's what I did. I enjoyed this movie.
Speaker 1: It wasn't the ideological slot fest that I kind of
Speaker 1: thought it might be. No, I actually thought that it
Speaker 1: was quite good, and I'll get into some of the
Speaker 1: reasons for that in the cover station that ensues as
Speaker 1: I bringing a couple other guys to talk about our
Speaker 1: first impressions about this film. Now, I do want to
Speaker 1: emphasize that these are first impressions. All of us have
Speaker 1: only seen this movie one time. It had just come
Speaker 1: out just a few days before we recorded this, and
Speaker 1: so some of our thoughts may change over time, but overall,
Speaker 1: like I said, I enjoyed the movie and I thought
Speaker 1: this was a good conversation, So let's go ahead and
Speaker 1: bring that in. All right, Welcome to Mythic Mind, where
Speaker 1: we're going to discuss the new Lord of the Rings
Speaker 1: movie the War of the Row hero. Definitely some mixed
Speaker 1: thoughts even in this conversation we're about to have here.
Speaker 1: I'm joined by Thomas Lerno, who many of you have
Speaker 1: heard from many times up to this point, as well
Speaker 1: as Master Sam Wise, who runs well we can tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit about the kind of stuff he's into,
Speaker 1: but he runs it seems to be a pretty pretty
Speaker 1: high engagement YouTube channel covering Tolkien stories adjacent no insultant,
Speaker 1: tided nerd material, and so let's just start with brief
Speaker 1: introductions here. Sam, can you tell us just a little
Speaker 1: bit more about what it is that you do and
Speaker 1: kind of what you bring to the table.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so first off, thanks for having me on. I'm
Speaker 2: excited to talk about this, especial because we have somewhat
Speaker 2: of a different.
Speaker 3: Opinion on Worthy here.
Speaker 2: So let's just be I expect a good conversation, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I run the Master Samwis Channel, which the tagline for
Speaker 2: that channel is essays on the Stories that really matter, right,
Speaker 2: obviously borrowing that phrase from Tolkien. I think Sam says
Speaker 2: that in the book to say it at some point,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to sometimes my memory of the books and
Speaker 2: the movies do get completed. But anyhow, so the longer
Speaker 2: thesis being that stories change us in ways that we
Speaker 2: may not even realize, and so the goal of the
Speaker 2: channel is to elucidate the truths that these stories speak
Speaker 2: and how they can and should affect us in you know,
Speaker 2: ways that we may not have even noticed.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: So that's taking even stories of pagan worlds like the
Speaker 2: God of War video games, and how like the characters
Speaker 2: do in fact portray you know, universalized Christian motifs, and
Speaker 2: you know, through through their growth that they go through,
Speaker 2: their themes are very much, you know, pointing towards God.
Speaker 2: Even if I don't usually explicitly state that in the channel, right,
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's not I don't know, agnostic by
Speaker 2: any means, but it's just not something I make a
Speaker 2: habit of shouting from the rooftops and kind of let
Speaker 2: it just seep in. Basically, So yeah, that's the basis
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: Side note. I love the Rohan flag in your your background.
Speaker 3: Versus that I was. It was a while ago.
Speaker 1: One of my favorites. Cool now, Thomas, You're probably tired
Speaker 1: of introducing yourself onto my show, but things like this
Speaker 1: tend to bring in some new people, and so tell
Speaker 1: us little bit about yourself as well.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm an author.
Speaker 6: Writer, podcaster. I wear a lot of hats. People watch
Speaker 6: this show might be interested to know that I do
Speaker 6: a lot.
Speaker 5: Of my podcasting for the Starquest Production Network or SQPN.
Speaker 5: You can find us on YouTube and anywhere you get
Speaker 5: your podcasts. I'm the regular host and sometimes, you know,
Speaker 5: sometimes I don't host, sometimes I'm the panelist. But I'm
Speaker 5: a regular host on the Secrets of Middle Earth podcasts
Speaker 5: that we do. We have episodes that come out pretty
Speaker 5: much twice a month now for that show, and you know,
Speaker 5: we cover everything related to Tolkien, you know, from the
Speaker 5: books to the movies to you know, the Rings of
Speaker 5: Power to this film.
Speaker 3: We just recorded our review for this film, so I'm.
Speaker 5: Excited to talk about it again because you know, I I.
Speaker 6: Talk about talking to anyone who will listen, so.
Speaker 1: Right, as do probably many, many of us and those
Speaker 1: of us who are who are listening right now. So
Speaker 1: I think this will be interesting conversation because, you know,
Speaker 1: Thomas and I both seem to be at least mostly
Speaker 1: favorable toward this movie. I know Sam is not, although
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that if this conversation spills into broader
Speaker 1: territory at all, you know, we probably have some differences
Speaker 1: when it comes to Rings of Power as well. You know,
Speaker 1: I think that Thomas is probably more favorable, though maybe
Speaker 1: I'm wrong about that. I don't put words in your mouth,
Speaker 1: but we enjoy it for.
Speaker 6: What it is.
Speaker 7: I you know, I don't think it's the greatest show
Speaker 7: ever or anything like that.
Speaker 5: I enjoyed it, and you know, I.
Speaker 7: Think if you listen to our reviews of the show,
Speaker 7: we were broadly favorable, though we definitely you know, had
Speaker 7: our problems with it and went on at length about that.
Speaker 6: But yeah, no, I I enjoy it.
Speaker 5: As one of the most expensive bits of fan fiction
Speaker 5: ever made.
Speaker 1: I could actually mostly sympathize with that it's expensive fan fiction.
Speaker 1: But uh, oh well, I guess we already brushed the subject. Sam,
Speaker 1: what do you think of a Ring's Power? Real quickly?
Speaker 2: So I watched the first season in its entirety back
Speaker 2: when it around, when it came out, and then I
Speaker 2: watched the first three episodes of the second season and
Speaker 2: never bothered watching anything more than that. It I certainly
Speaker 2: don't hate it as much as I've seen.
Speaker 3: People hate it.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's particularly well written. I think the
Speaker 2: characters suffer from a lot of inconsistencies.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: And that affects Glad Real Lever, Gladial to gil Galad
Speaker 2: to Dura Duran during the third and.
Speaker 3: It just it was it was really boring.
Speaker 2: I was my wife and I watched the first two
Speaker 2: episodes of the second season together and it was just
Speaker 2: like I was falling asleep, we were both falling asleep.
Speaker 2: And she had no interest in watching the third episode.
Speaker 2: And this is I'm a fairly harsh critic of stuff,
Speaker 2: especially for stuff that's connected to a world that I love,
Speaker 2: that I grew up with, that I have very very
Speaker 2: strong attachment to.
Speaker 3: My life. Is a less harsh critic.
Speaker 2: So when she has no interest in watching something, no
Speaker 2: one you know, continuing to watch something, uh, that that's
Speaker 2: kind of a it's a good, good, uh good bar
Speaker 2: for me to set, like Okay, this is not just
Speaker 2: me being irrationally critical.
Speaker 1: That's fair, and yeah, it's I really want to enjoy
Speaker 1: Tolkien media, Like, I don't want to be super critical.
Speaker 1: I hate this, you know, I don't want to be
Speaker 1: that guy. And so I've kind of talked myself into
Speaker 1: tolerating Rings of Power as kind of expensive, superficial fanfiction.
Speaker 1: It's it's shallow, but at the same time, I mean,
Speaker 1: even in our current culture, as far as like mainstream
Speaker 1: fantasy goes, even an echo of an echo of Tolkien
Speaker 1: has at least some merits to it, even if it's
Speaker 1: not what it could be.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, if there if there are things you can glean
Speaker 2: from Rings of Power, and there's i mean there's more
Speaker 2: cleaning for more of their hero Yeah, that speak to
Speaker 2: the truths that Tolkien talks about that have you know,
Speaker 2: even just little bits of his philosophy and his his
Speaker 2: worldview that are dropped in there, then that's great, right,
Speaker 2: If if you get that out of there, that's fantastic.
Speaker 5: Right, And that that's basically the point of like of
Speaker 5: the podcast, I do secrets have been alerted where it's like,
Speaker 5: if we can find anything, you know, that brings us
Speaker 5: back to to Tolkien where we'll go on and on
Speaker 5: about it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, right, I mean, as long as they're not
Speaker 1: being it's clearly like, yeah, intentionally subversive in like major
Speaker 1: philosophical way. It's like, I'm actually, I don't want them
Speaker 1: to tink you with the plot the lower more than
Speaker 1: they have to to adapt it to a story. I
Speaker 1: don't want that. I can tolerate that. The only the
Speaker 1: only times when I go like hardcore critic is when
Speaker 1: I feel like there are philosophical subversions. And I mean
Speaker 1: there's some of that, but I don't feel like it's
Speaker 1: nearly as bad as it could be. And then maybe
Speaker 1: I'm showing them too much. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, everything exists on a slider scale. Peter Jackson
Speaker 2: changed the characters in significant ways in some points and
Speaker 2: certain plot points.
Speaker 3: To me, I have a whole.
Speaker 2: Video on why the Army of the Dead is BS,
Speaker 2: and you know I named it as such because it
Speaker 2: is severely cheap into the victory of men for one thing,
Speaker 2: and you know it didn't make sense within the law anyhow.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so like that, there there's a whole sliding
Speaker 2: scale of it, right. I think Peter Jackson's did a
Speaker 2: much much better job. I would never I don't equate
Speaker 2: the two. Peter Jackson's movies far outstrip up anything that's
Speaker 2: come since the Lord of the Rings trilogy. To be specific,
Speaker 2: he did make three other movies.
Speaker 1: We don't talk about that.
Speaker 5: That's a running gag on our show on the Secrets
Speaker 5: of Biddle Earth that we always like, we we bring
Speaker 5: up the Hobbit movies and then we're like, there's our
Speaker 5: contractually obligated reference to the Hobbit trilogy. It's like, we
Speaker 5: haven't reviewed them yet, and we're kind of teasing fans
Speaker 5: because we keep bringing it up and then we.
Speaker 6: End up not reviewing it. But we'll get to them eventually.
Speaker 3: There is no movie in Bossing say.
Speaker 1: See, I actually have not even watched all of them
Speaker 1: through I've earlier this year, I finally decided, all right,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give it a shot. And maybe I shouldn't
Speaker 1: have started with the extended edition. And I don't know, but.
Speaker 2: There's an extended edition of them. There's an ext I
Speaker 2: didn't know there's an extent I've I've only seen the
Speaker 2: first two. To be clear, I've never bothered watching the
Speaker 2: Bottle of Five Armies but I didn't realize there was
Speaker 2: an extended edition of these.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like, I felt like that's what I needed
Speaker 1: to do. I made it Goblin.
Speaker 5: The extended edition of of Unexpected Journey is so poorly edited,
Speaker 5: like they just jammed those deleted scenes in there, and
Speaker 5: they actually break continuity with the rest of the movie,
Speaker 5: not like the extended editions of the of the original
Speaker 5: Lord of the Rings films.
Speaker 6: The correct ver. Yeah, the extended editions are bust.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like but with the Hobbit at least I
Speaker 5: can only speak to that first one. But in terms
Speaker 5: of the extended edition, but it's so badly edited, it's
Speaker 5: it wow.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, I said I made it to Goblin Town.
Speaker 1: Got distracted.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, that's where some of the worst editing snaffoos
Speaker 5: are in Goblin Town.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but okay, we're we're starting to hit like every
Speaker 1: to hear. But let's bring it back to now before
Speaker 1: we get into our thoughts of you know what we
Speaker 1: walked out with, And I should say that, you know,
Speaker 1: this movie just came out. I don't know about you guys.
Speaker 1: I've only seen it one time, which yeah, makes reviews
Speaker 1: a little bit difficult. Because I know some things kind
Speaker 1: of need to grow on you. You kind of need to
Speaker 1: see it more than once. So these are all just
Speaker 1: first impressions coming out here. But before you even went
Speaker 1: into the movie, i'd be interested in knowing what you
Speaker 1: were expecting, just based off any promotional material of seeing
Speaker 1: trailers whatever, Like what were your thoughts? Were you optimistic,
Speaker 1: were you just kind of hopeful? Were you pessimistic? Like
Speaker 1: what were you expecting going in? Sam? What are you
Speaker 1: thinking about going into it?
Speaker 3: I was highly skeptical.
Speaker 2: I think I said this in my review, but I'm
Speaker 2: just highly skeptical going into everything nowadays, especially for stuff
Speaker 2: that is in a world that I love, because I've
Speaker 2: been hurt so many times. My favorite, one of my
Speaker 2: favorite shows that's come out in recent years was and Or,
Speaker 2: and I've been a Star Wars fan as long as
Speaker 2: I can remember.
Speaker 3: And I didn't watch and Or for.
Speaker 2: At least until several months after it was all completely
Speaker 2: done with its twelve episode run, because I went you know,
Speaker 2: I liked Rugue one.
Speaker 3: I liked it a lot, actually, but it was like
Speaker 3: he was a fine character. I guess I'm not really
Speaker 3: that interested. And then I just kept hearing good things.
Speaker 2: Oh, I guess I'll check this out because I but
Speaker 2: I'd been burned too many times.
Speaker 3: I'll be on Kenobi Show.
Speaker 2: The Bubba Fet Show, Rings of Power, and who knows
Speaker 2: what else. And so I was very very skeptical going
Speaker 2: in for sure, and it honestly was probably better than
Speaker 2: I expected it to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's fair. And you know, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be careful leough to derailist on Star Wars now, but
Speaker 1: I can I can definitely sympathize with that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I you know, I watched a couple of seasons of
Speaker 1: Mandalorian Boba Fet, but after.
Speaker 3: That then is very bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I never saw it. I mean, I got to
Speaker 1: a point where and I can't even believe I say
Speaker 1: this ten years ago, I wouldn't believe it. I don't
Speaker 1: really care about Star Wars anymore. I just feel like
Speaker 1: it's just sort of fizzled out for me for so
Speaker 1: many reasons. But again, it's not a Star Wars podcast. Okay,
Speaker 1: So uh, all right, fair enough, You're you're very skeptical
Speaker 1: for I think some some good reasons. Thomas, What were
Speaker 1: you thinking of going into this?
Speaker 6: I was broadly.
Speaker 5: Optimistic going into this, I had my concerns, but uh,
Speaker 5: I liked the trailers that I had seen. The director
Speaker 5: of this film also directed The Ninth Jedi, which was
Speaker 5: one of my favorite of the Star Wars anime shorts that.
Speaker 6: They released, so, you know, bringing back to Star Wars again.
Speaker 1: But uh but.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I was like, well, I really really liked
Speaker 5: the Ninth Jedi. I think he'll probably do a good
Speaker 5: job in the Lord of the Rings universe.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I I did have.
Speaker 5: My concerns in terms of lore and stuff and how
Speaker 5: they were going to handle some of the characters.
Speaker 6: But when coming out of the.
Speaker 5: Movie, I was broadly pleased with with what they did.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So I I found my uh my optimism rewarded a
Speaker 5: little when I came out. Yeah, I thought, definitely it
Speaker 5: was superior, obviously superior to the Rings of Power in
Speaker 5: terms of the lore area. I I basically I think
Speaker 5: my the first thing I said when I came out
Speaker 5: was that it was respectful to the lore the way
Speaker 5: a Jackson Verse movie should be, unlike.
Speaker 6: Some of it, like the Hobbit, like the Hobbit movies.
Speaker 5: But anyway, yeah, so, uh, yeah, I was broadly optimistic
Speaker 5: going in and felt good coming out, So I definitely
Speaker 5: think it's it's worth seeing if you're a Tolkien fan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when when when I first heard the concept, that's
Speaker 1: very interested. I mean, yeah, I love Rohan, I love
Speaker 1: the Anglo Saxon vibes. You know that the the area
Speaker 1: of the law is definitely appealing to me. And the
Speaker 1: fact that they're dealing with an appendix and part of
Speaker 1: appendix that's relatively short means that they have some good
Speaker 1: free range to tell a story without breaking the law,
Speaker 1: if you know, if they did it right, and I
Speaker 1: feel like they largely accomplished as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 1: But once the trailer started getting released and some of
Speaker 1: the other promotional material, I was very very skeptical about
Speaker 1: what we were walking into. I kind of expect there's
Speaker 1: gonna be another glad real girl boss situation where you know,
Speaker 1: you have your one female protagonist who you know, as
Speaker 1: Tolkien gives us, isn't doesn't even have a name, right,
Speaker 1: it's such a minor character, and now she's gonna be
Speaker 1: the main character who's just gonna you know, defeat all
Speaker 1: the bad guy, save the day, and you know, do
Speaker 1: everything all by yourself. I was kind of expecting that
Speaker 1: sort of vibe now very I was. That's not what
Speaker 1: I saw when I saw the movie. I was very
Speaker 1: pleasantly surprised, not to mention the fact that also I
Speaker 1: kind of have not just not necessary prejudice, but as
Speaker 1: far as like interest level goes sort of prejudiced against
Speaker 1: anime and that's just not my thing, Like, it's not
Speaker 1: something I've ever really been interested in. The last time
Speaker 1: I watched the anime show there were one hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty Pokemon. That kind of goes back to the when
Speaker 1: I last watched anime, and so just you know, it's
Speaker 1: not a domain that I'm just really used to naturally
Speaker 1: drawn to. But you know, and so on that level,
Speaker 1: as far as the art of the animation, and I'm
Speaker 1: not a very good critic because I don't really know
Speaker 1: that scene very well and so just kind of walking
Speaker 1: into it someone that's an outsider, I mean, I thought
Speaker 1: it was done pretty well. I felt like it was
Speaker 1: good animation, you know, artist Thry. They didn't disrupt the
Speaker 1: plot fundamentally, and I felt like the changes they did
Speaker 1: make were reasonable for storytelling, and so overall, I was
Speaker 1: very pleasantly and so I'm not gonna say this is
Speaker 1: the best written thing or the best talking thing ever.
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, the Jackson Lord of the Rings.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's it's better. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I enjoyed it, and it's something that I
Speaker 1: want to see again, and so overall is pleasantly surprised.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what you said earlier about it's hard for me
Speaker 2: to review stuff after seeing it one time. Right, I
Speaker 2: formed my initial opinion of it. I made my review
Speaker 2: based off of that. I talked about it, said to
Speaker 2: my wife, you know, I'm gonna review it based on
Speaker 2: how I feel now. I might watch it again and
Speaker 2: feel differently. Like that's the tough thing, you know. I
Speaker 2: don't generally review movies that have just come out. I
Speaker 2: review stuff that has been out for a long time
Speaker 2: and do character analyzes of characters. One but very well
Speaker 2: familiar with that. I watched two or three times before
Speaker 2: even making a video, because I don't like going in,
Speaker 2: you know, making something that I'm not quite sure of. Right,
Speaker 2: It's like, this is not you know, this is kind
Speaker 2: of a it's very much a snapshot of my opinion
Speaker 2: at the time. It's it's very it's something I would
Speaker 2: like to see this again. Rings the Power, I have
Speaker 2: no interest in ever seeing again. I have, but like
Speaker 2: were their harem, Yeah absolutely. And if you said this
Speaker 2: is your your favorite Tolkien you know, adaptation since two
Speaker 2: thousand and three, I honestly I might even agree.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I And I think that says something. Just the
Speaker 1: fact that it's something that you know, that you you
Speaker 1: know right now at least first impressions. You' you're pretty
Speaker 1: critical of the movie, but something that you want to
Speaker 1: see again. That says something about it. And I totally
Speaker 1: agree with Rings of Power. Now I've seen every episode
Speaker 1: that comes out. I'll keep watching just because I like
Speaker 1: to know what people are doing in the Tolkien media universe.
Speaker 1: But it's not something I'm ever going to rewatch, unlike
Speaker 1: you know, the Lord of the Rings movies, which I've
Speaker 1: watched on a very regular basis. So what would you say, Sam,
Speaker 1: since you're you're the most critical of this, what are
Speaker 1: your major criticisms of what they did wrong or what
Speaker 1: you just didn't like?
Speaker 2: So one of the biggest things that really soured me
Speaker 2: on the movie was that they very clearly were going
Speaker 2: for the vibe of, hey, you remember.
Speaker 3: Jackson's Lord of the rings.
Speaker 2: That was I mean, it was straight in the beginning
Speaker 2: of the trailer, right, you know, remember Peter Jackson. And
Speaker 2: then you had I think I think it's at south
Speaker 2: Park that has like the member Berrys, that's their bet.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't generally watch south Park, but
Speaker 2: like that's you know, it's again remember this, Remember that
Speaker 2: you had the Mamma kill. You had the Watcher in
Speaker 2: the water, which I'm sure that breaks some more being
Speaker 2: in Rohan, but whatever, I don't really care about that.
Speaker 3: It was just but it was one of the things.
Speaker 2: And then you had the whole the battle outside of
Speaker 2: outside of Ederas was very much their charge. There was
Speaker 2: very much like we're trying to make this as much
Speaker 2: like the charge at the poll in our fields.
Speaker 3: As we can.
Speaker 2: And there are a couple of the moments, Oh you
Speaker 2: had in similar venue had a frail off showing up
Speaker 2: at Helm's Deep and laving the charge down the slope
Speaker 2: like Gandalf and Amerd the movie. I'm sure there were
Speaker 2: a couple of things I'm missing, but there were. You
Speaker 2: had the the Orcs pulling rings off dead bodies, as
Speaker 2: if that was going to find the one ring that
Speaker 2: basically there is Gandalf showing up at the end and
Speaker 2: or being mentioned at the end of Sarmon shows at
Speaker 2: the end. But yeah, and so it felt like that
Speaker 2: was the vibe they were going for, was, Hey, you
Speaker 2: remember this, you remember this?
Speaker 3: You remember this? Like, yeah, I remember, don't remind me.
Speaker 2: I'd rather be watch remind me of that, but I'd
Speaker 2: rather be watching that movie. And then my other main
Speaker 2: criticism is, like, I care a lot about characters and
Speaker 2: character arcs, and I think Harrah's had a decent one
Speaker 2: if they'd ended differently, because they kind of just they
Speaker 2: they she kind of she did did go through a struggle,
Speaker 2: she went through even some despair, and she came out hopeful.
Speaker 2: There are two moments that I think I would have
Speaker 2: done differently, And there's one where Wolf asks her, like
Speaker 2: during their duels, like who are you pledged to? I
Speaker 2: believe something like that, and she says death, Yeah, remember
Speaker 2: it correctly, And she should have said my people or
Speaker 2: my family, in my opinion, because that makes her I
Speaker 2: feel like her arc had been one of growth to
Speaker 2: duty towards the people. The narrator rand Auto starts out
Speaker 2: by telling us that she is, you know, wild, headstrong,
Speaker 2: and free, something to that effect, and then she ends
Speaker 2: the movie by telling us that she is wild, headstrong,
Speaker 2: and free, and I would have reshaped that arc to
Speaker 2: be one of growth into you know, leadership and responsibility,
Speaker 2: which is what she takes on. But then at the
Speaker 2: end she just kind of doesn't because they had to
Speaker 2: stick to the lore they felt, they felt that they
Speaker 2: had to stay with the littleer A frail off actually
Speaker 2: becomes the you know, the first camp second line, and
Speaker 2: Harrah just goes off.
Speaker 3: She's she's still loyal.
Speaker 2: She tells him, you know, like, you have my sword
Speaker 2: if you need it. But I feel like they could
Speaker 2: have handled her arc better. Helm, I feel was was
Speaker 2: was changed from the from the book, and just in
Speaker 2: small ways, but ways that I think matter where he
Speaker 2: starts a more honorable brawl with uh Prekka and let's
Speaker 2: get the first punch. And if you read the again,
Speaker 2: it's a it's a couple of lines, but it really
Speaker 2: sounds like Helm sucker punches him, and then yeah, so
Speaker 2: there just wasn't and then wasn't enough Helm. They've made
Speaker 2: Helm a little too honorable in my opinion, Like Helm
Speaker 2: is a consummate warrior and leader, but he's not the
Speaker 2: sense that I get from the Again, the paragraph in
Speaker 2: the appendix is that he's not the most honorable and
Speaker 2: that his his ambition and his probably did lead a
Speaker 2: little bit to his downfall, which you get that sense
Speaker 2: somewhat in the movie, but could have been explored more.
Speaker 2: And then I'm talking a lot, So I'll finish with
Speaker 2: this thought her Harrah's brothers, they had some good, like
Speaker 2: kind of heroic moments. I felt we didn't spend enough
Speaker 2: time with them. I didn't get to know them very well,
Speaker 2: and I would have liked to. So that's my main criticisms.
Speaker 5: And here's the interesting thing, Sam, I don't disagree with anything.
Speaker 6: You just say this just for me.
Speaker 5: All of that, the movie still landed on the broadly
Speaker 5: positive side. But yeah, I pretty much agree with all
Speaker 5: of those criticisms. Like, if I was looking for ways
Speaker 5: I could improve the movie, I would pretty much take
Speaker 5: what you said as a as a starting point.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think those are reasonable criticisms.
Speaker 1: So so, Thomas, what do you think they did right?
Speaker 1: Or like that? You know that outweighs those criticisms that
Speaker 1: you that you share.
Speaker 5: I actually did though, I think one thing I thought
Speaker 5: they did a good job of showing him as as
Speaker 5: kind of a morally ambiguous character, although I feel like
Speaker 5: they could.
Speaker 6: Have done leaned into that more.
Speaker 5: I mean, he he he banishes his his nephew seemingly
Speaker 5: for no good reason. He puts, you know, too much
Speaker 5: trust in that one guy. Oh, I would have made
Speaker 5: that less obvious. By the way, if I was going
Speaker 5: to critique something, who would have thought a guy called
Speaker 5: Lord Thorne would be the trader?
Speaker 6: Like I would have made that.
Speaker 5: I would have made that a little bit less on
Speaker 5: the nose. But in any case, so what what what
Speaker 5: made it work for me was, Yeah, I really like
Speaker 5: seeing characters grow and change throughout the movie. And I
Speaker 5: I just I just thought that in terms of a
Speaker 5: lot of the female main protagonists that we have seen recently,
Speaker 5: I thought Harrow was by far the strongest, Like, you know,
Speaker 5: in terms of of her her character arc was pretty solid.
Speaker 5: She actually does grow and change and and suffer adversity
Speaker 5: and isn't just immediately good at everything, you know, Like,
Speaker 5: I just was on board with the characters.
Speaker 1: She can't single handily take on the military of Newmanor
Speaker 1: and a sword fight, right, yeah, you know.
Speaker 5: Like and and I I was just on on board
Speaker 5: with with what the characters were doing. I thought that
Speaker 5: a lot of the heroic moments landed for me, And
Speaker 5: when when I was catching little changes from those few
Speaker 5: paragraphs that we had in the appendices, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 5: for the story they're telling, that makes sense. But I
Speaker 5: also appreciated that they did lift entire lines of dialogue
Speaker 5: from uh from the Rohan section of of Tolkien's appendices,
Speaker 5: and I just felt that, Oh, they didn't downplay any
Speaker 5: of the men to lift terror up.
Speaker 6: If it makes sense.
Speaker 5: Yeah, in a lot of contemporary media, they feel they
Speaker 5: need to make the men stupid or peevish or corrupt
Speaker 5: or incompetent or or any of these other things in
Speaker 5: order to lift up the female character, which doesn't disserve
Speaker 5: to both, not.
Speaker 6: Just the men. But it's like that they did not
Speaker 6: do that here.
Speaker 5: And I just felt that and Helm was suitably heroic,
Speaker 5: and so were the brothers. I like the brothers a lot.
Speaker 5: I agree I would have I would have liked more
Speaker 5: time to develop them, but but I get that we're
Speaker 5: we're not doing a full three hours here, like like
Speaker 5: Jackson would have done. But yeah, I and my my
Speaker 5: biggest lore I'll tell you what my biggest concern going
Speaker 5: is in was was that they were going to write
Speaker 5: frail Off out of the movie completely, and they did
Speaker 5: not do that. And I remember when we came out,
Speaker 5: my brother said to me, he's like, if anyone else
Speaker 5: had made this movie, they would have just written frail
Speaker 5: Off out because and you know, because he he's It's like,
Speaker 5: because without him, you could have put Hera.
Speaker 6: In his place.
Speaker 5: The biggest changed law change I thought they made was
Speaker 5: giving Hara the final kill of Wolf rather than frail Off.
Speaker 5: In the book, it's frail Off, but I thought I
Speaker 5: expected that once I knew freil Off was in the movie,
Speaker 5: I was like, Okay, they're gonna give Hera the kill
Speaker 5: because of what they're of, what they're built, the personal
Speaker 5: animosity between them. So I thought in terms that made
Speaker 5: sense for this adaptation. And I don't think it's too
Speaker 5: much of a stretch. But yeah, I know, I'm kind
Speaker 5: of rambling. I've had a really long week, by the way,
Speaker 5: so if if I.
Speaker 6: Begin to ramble, it's just because I'm tired. We've had
Speaker 6: a busy week at work.
Speaker 1: But yeah, fair enough. Yeah, and I will say that
Speaker 1: I am glad that they didn't make hera the Queen
Speaker 1: of Rohanna at the end. That was just right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would have been called me to just write it
Speaker 1: off altogether, because I, like you said, she she's not
Speaker 1: a just like smash the patriarchy, everything's about me liberation. No,
Speaker 1: she she very much serves the honor of her king
Speaker 1: and father. She is concerned about the good of her people.
Speaker 1: She is not this rebel with how to cause you know,
Speaker 1: there's a tempest in me, uh kind of figure, and
Speaker 1: so you know, I like that she's part of the
Speaker 1: society that she kind of represents as the heroine of
Speaker 1: the story, and so that maybe overall pretty comfortable what
Speaker 1: they did with her. Now, yes, she doesn't really have
Speaker 1: much of an arc in that she doesn't change in
Speaker 1: any dramatic form throughout the movie. She basically is who
Speaker 1: she is at the beginning at the end. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, like I know, it's kind of a
Speaker 1: faux pas that people will call her a you know,
Speaker 1: a plain Jane or whatever they say when she doesn't
Speaker 1: really have any development. But at the same time, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, the the Rohrom that these people are very
Speaker 1: much drawn from the northern Spirit, the Anglo Saxons, and
Speaker 1: you know, as somebody who likes to read the Norse tales,
Speaker 1: the Vulse songs, the Eda's, you know, those characters for
Speaker 1: the most part, don't really have arcs. They don't really change.
Speaker 1: These are just people who are put by fate in
Speaker 1: a certain situation, and they play the role that is
Speaker 1: allotted to them, and so the story isn't so much
Speaker 1: about their development as characters. The story is about the
Speaker 1: things that are happening in the broader sphere, but focusing
Speaker 1: in on the role that specific characters have to play
Speaker 1: within that broader story. And so it's like the story
Speaker 1: is the story, the character is not the story. And
Speaker 1: so I'm actually okay with a character not having an
Speaker 1: arc per se, so long as there is some kind
Speaker 1: of compelling story taking place around them. I feel like
Speaker 1: that actually captures the traditions of the Northern Spirit pretty well. Now,
Speaker 1: perhaps it could be in fact, no, I mean I
Speaker 1: think that even in Tolkien's own writing, like you have
Speaker 1: some characters that are like that, that are strong articulators
Speaker 1: that don't I mean, like you know, Book Eric is
Speaker 1: not fundamentally different by the end than Here's at the
Speaker 1: beginning in the book. Yeah, yeah, Jackson Aragorn. Sure, that's
Speaker 1: that's one thing I think Jackson did wrong. But book
Speaker 1: air Gorn is basically the same throughout the story. And
Speaker 1: so I'm actually okay with the fact that Hara doesn't
Speaker 1: have an arc.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's there's not having an arc, which you
Speaker 2: can do. I think what what bugged me was that
Speaker 2: the narrator told us about her. I hate it when
Speaker 2: about If they hadn't in glude to those lines, I'd
Speaker 2: probably much more favorable, but that really bucks me. And yeah,
Speaker 2: so I think she they walked the line with her being.
Speaker 3: Too talented versus not too talented.
Speaker 2: You know, you have great moments like she know she
Speaker 2: doesn't take out that troll that was there on the
Speaker 2: hip cliffs around Helm's Deep for whatever reason. You know,
Speaker 2: Helm has to do that. Great, but she does also
Speaker 2: just like very quickly organize an evacuation for better us.
Speaker 3: Okay, great, you.
Speaker 2: Know she's she's been in the royal family, She's able
Speaker 2: to do that, She is able to do these things.
Speaker 2: I think they walked that line pretty well with her
Speaker 2: being very competent and capable and also.
Speaker 3: Having her moments where she didn't feel like she was.
Speaker 2: And then yeah, otherwise the character just it didn't resonate
Speaker 2: with me a ton she was, she was good enough
Speaker 2: for the story, but there there was the one moment
Speaker 2: that felt not as earned, not as well earned as
Speaker 2: I think the story thought it was. And I do
Speaker 2: remember this was one of the ones where I violidated
Speaker 2: this with my wife, and I was like, am I
Speaker 2: being ridical to that?
Speaker 1: I thought.
Speaker 2: The same thing was when they're at the gate of
Speaker 2: the Hornberg and Helm, you know, pushes her back inside
Speaker 2: and he's like, I should have listened to you, you know,
Speaker 2: I should have trusted you, And I went, you didn't
Speaker 2: listen to her one time?
Speaker 3: And you know, that was kind of it.
Speaker 2: She just happened to be right, Like, sure she was right,
Speaker 2: but this wasn't like an ongoing thing or she didn't
Speaker 2: have any particular reason. You know, it didn't seem like
Speaker 2: he was being all that brash in his decision making.
Speaker 3: And that was kind of the larger problem.
Speaker 2: That I didn't really bring up that I had, which
Speaker 2: it seemed that this story was so focused on Harah, Right,
Speaker 2: you say, the story is the story and charags the characters.
Speaker 2: I felt that the story really was about her, And
Speaker 2: when a story is so focused on a character, I
Speaker 2: want the character to have more, more of an arc,
Speaker 2: more of a struggle. Proto doesn't have so much an
Speaker 2: arc as he does, like experience this continuous pressure and
Speaker 2: you know on his will right where he's cane having
Speaker 2: to fight back this, He's still he's incredibly noble throughout
Speaker 2: the whole Lord of the Rings. He changes dramatically obviously,
Speaker 2: but doesn't really so much become a better person.
Speaker 3: I wanted to see more of that effect on Haarra.
Speaker 2: I think I said this interview, she goes some incredibly
Speaker 2: traumatic stuff and out the side more or less unchanged,
Speaker 2: and for a story that, in my opinion, the story
Speaker 2: was very focused on her. Like Helen's death for example,
Speaker 2: in the in the appendix, it just takes place as
Speaker 2: he's out rating the encamped dun Landers, right, delanience whatever,
Speaker 2: it just you know, he goes out. He's doing that repeatedly,
Speaker 2: and eventually one night he goes out for too long
Speaker 2: and he freezes to death on his feet ready to fight.
Speaker 2: In the movie, they have him do it while he's
Speaker 2: defending Hara, right. So that's just kind of example, like
Speaker 2: everything kind of kind of she was kind of like
Speaker 2: a little gravitational center that sucked in the like story
Speaker 2: bits right, everything kind of wrote revolved around her, and
Speaker 2: so I think if you do that, you need a
Speaker 2: little more character work. Again, I think they did do
Speaker 2: some character work, a lot better character work than I
Speaker 2: have seen in the likes of Glad Thrill or name
Speaker 2: any Star warshow that's not and Or in the last decade.
Speaker 2: But like I said, I'm a fairly harsh critic, especially
Speaker 2: if things that I that are near and dear to
Speaker 2: my heart, you know.
Speaker 1: I think that's fair, especially drawing on the Phroto comparison,
Speaker 1: because you know, Ereferen's Eric Gorne. But Frodo is obviously
Speaker 1: the central figure of the story, and well, he doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily undergo a radical character transformation. He does have a
Speaker 1: deepening of his character, you know, as he bears the burden,
Speaker 1: he incorporates grief and sorrow into his character in a
Speaker 1: new way. You know, even as Gandolf his master so
Speaker 1: to speak. You know, we told that he in the
Speaker 1: Silmarlion that he learned sorrow from Nianna and that is
Speaker 1: what brought him wisdom. Frodo shares in that kind of
Speaker 1: arc himself, and so he has a deepening of character
Speaker 1: throughout the story, whereas I mean fair enough Para really,
Speaker 1: I mean she's more or less the same. So I
Speaker 1: think that's that's a fair comparison. Now regarding the character
Speaker 1: of Helm, that that's come up a few times, Thomas,
Speaker 1: what do you think about the character of Helm, because
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've directly addressed that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I thought Helms was handled well. I thought he was.
Speaker 5: He was more complex than I thought he was going
Speaker 5: to be, you know, because we see where you know,
Speaker 5: his his pride sometimes leads him to make rash decisions
Speaker 5: or you know, he he literally at one point doesn't
Speaker 5: know his own strength.
Speaker 6: He's like, oh, there's no way I killed that guy,
Speaker 6: and it's like I don't know, man, did you?
Speaker 5: But anyway, Yeah, I I felt that that the the
Speaker 5: the movie shows him as you know, an honorable kingly
Speaker 5: man despite character flaws, and and I felt that was
Speaker 5: very interesting. I felt, you know, as maybe not to
Speaker 5: to audiences who aren't as familiar with the appendices, maybe
Speaker 5: his over the top heroic death.
Speaker 6: Might not seem earned, but for someone who knew that it.
Speaker 5: Was coming like that, the the over the topness of
Speaker 5: it actually worked very well for me personally. But yeah,
Speaker 5: that that's That's one criticism I I do want to
Speaker 5: lodge at the movie is that I don't know how
Speaker 5: audiences who aren't extremely familiar with this stuff are going
Speaker 5: to take this.
Speaker 2: I definitely think, I think you made a very good point,
Speaker 2: and I think this is one thing that like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I might watch the movie come up with a different
Speaker 2: opinion of Helm Especially in this movie, I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: I said, I did say I think he was too honorable,
Speaker 2: and I think he made some good points where they
Speaker 2: did show more complexity than I think I took away
Speaker 2: from the film, But I would absolutely agree that they
Speaker 2: I think they needed to earn that death of his more.
Speaker 2: I think they needed to spend more time establishing the
Speaker 2: legend of Helmhammer hand. Yes, it's essentially one maybe two
Speaker 2: relatively short scenes. That's kind of all you get. And like,
Speaker 2: this is the man they changed the name of this fortress, right,
Speaker 2: they're all right for this man. Right, this fortress has
Speaker 2: as they has, like saved their people numerous times in
Speaker 2: the past. Right, there's a reason for that. And I
Speaker 2: think they needed to spend more time with Helman I
Speaker 2: mean the people within the Hornberg. I think he's dead, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: and then he shows up and then he's dead five
Speaker 2: minutes later, and yeah, I just I they did an
Speaker 2: okay job, I think kind of portraying the effect on on.
Speaker 3: The the dun Landers.
Speaker 2: But I think they should have spent a decent bit
Speaker 2: of the movie honestly establishing his legend.
Speaker 5: And I do want to mention the character of Wolf
Speaker 5: as a villain. I felt that he was suitably over
Speaker 5: the top. I feel like, and they they said in
Speaker 5: interviews that that I had read before going into this
Speaker 5: that they were gonna wan, that they were gonna make
Speaker 5: himn unredeemed villain and and I'm like, okay, and I
Speaker 5: I felt that that that worked for for this story,
Speaker 5: and I felt he he was that villain that I
Speaker 5: really grew to like hate passionately throughout the movie, especially
Speaker 5: because like, I became so invested in his feud with
Speaker 5: his general, uh general Targ, because I'm like, I'm like,
Speaker 5: I'm like, I kept saying to myself and sometimes out loud.
Speaker 5: I had to stop myself from saying it out loud
Speaker 5: to Targ just slit this guy's throat.
Speaker 6: Already because he never listens to you. He never listens
Speaker 6: to you.
Speaker 5: He clearly doesn't care about the Dunlandings at all. And
Speaker 5: they say that Targ is a full blooded Dunlanding, whereas
Speaker 5: as a wolf is at most only half and he
Speaker 5: clearly doesn't care about his his people on that side
Speaker 5: of the family, and because he's using them as cannon fodder,
Speaker 5: likes as soon as he tricks them into thinking that
Speaker 5: there's gold in the fortress when he knows there's not.
Speaker 5: I'm like Targ do in this guy already. It's like
Speaker 5: because I'm like, it reminded me almost of like a
Speaker 5: World War two movie where you have the reasonably common
Speaker 5: tent in general having to listen to this maniac, you know,
Speaker 5: like this almost hit larian maniac making these awful decisions
Speaker 5: because of his monomaniacal focus on on revenge or whatever.
Speaker 5: And I'm just like, but I like it. It was silly,
Speaker 5: it was goofy at times, but for me, that worked,
Speaker 5: and I was just like, you know, I very much.
Speaker 5: You know, it worked in the sense that it made
Speaker 5: me love to hate a wolf fair enough, fair.
Speaker 1: Enough, Yeah, I will say that it is kind of
Speaker 1: refreshing to have a villain that they don't really want
Speaker 1: you to feel sorry for that he's just he's just
Speaker 1: a bad guy. Like, I think we need some more
Speaker 1: of that in stories where it's not gray is ambiguous.
Speaker 1: They don't they don't want you to sympathize with him.
Speaker 1: They don't want you to like secretly root for him.
Speaker 1: They i mean obviously connected rings of power, right, Like
Speaker 1: that's what they want you to kind of root for
Speaker 1: Soalron at certain times, and I think that's just it's
Speaker 1: it's bad, right. That's one of the philosophical qualms that
Speaker 1: I have with Brings Up Power is that they at
Speaker 1: times they actively try to want you to like want
Speaker 1: Souron and Gladriel to get together, which is just absurd.
Speaker 1: But you know, the whole communities that you know are
Speaker 1: like want that to happen, and the fact that that
Speaker 1: would get any kind of bait is just that's problematic.
Speaker 1: Does nice have a villain who's just bad and they
Speaker 1: don't really want you to like him? That is refreshing.
Speaker 1: And I will say, you know, one more thing on
Speaker 1: on Helm, I agree with what Sam said that he
Speaker 1: has made to be a little bit more honorable than
Speaker 1: he probably should be. You know, in that first fight,
Speaker 1: you know in the the appendix, when he you know,
Speaker 1: when he punches them and kills him, he doesn't have
Speaker 1: remorse like oh what did I do?
Speaker 4: It?
Speaker 1: Just it just happens and the story moves on like, yeah,
Speaker 1: he probably had to come in.
Speaker 2: Does he does he in the appendix banish, Well, I
Speaker 2: believe he does.
Speaker 6: Yes, he does.
Speaker 1: He does, yes, so so that that part is accurate.
Speaker 1: But I will say that I did actually really like
Speaker 1: the way they portrayed him terrorizing his people outside of
Speaker 1: the Hornberg.
Speaker 3: When it was done, it was done really well.
Speaker 2: I just wanted more of it and more affected like
Speaker 2: the people of Rohan too.
Speaker 1: Right, But I feel like that did a good job
Speaker 1: of making him seem like some kind of like preternatural being,
Speaker 1: like taunting them.
Speaker 6: Like the Wraith.
Speaker 2: YEA like the way that was done just artistically, the
Speaker 2: shot it was kind of like his.
Speaker 3: Raith like form and the snow was really really good.
Speaker 1: But I would say definitely better portrayal than in This
Speaker 1: is really nitpicky, but in Jackson's Two Towers, when they
Speaker 1: show a statue of helm hammer hand, he's literally holding
Speaker 1: a hammer in his hand, so they definitely got that
Speaker 1: a little bit better.
Speaker 5: He does have a warhammer in this fair enough, but
Speaker 5: I mean that's clue.
Speaker 1: That's not what he's known, right, He's called He's called
Speaker 1: himerhand because his hand is a hammer exactly.
Speaker 2: Oh, I will, I will say along the lines of Wolf.
Speaker 2: I found him very basic. I think that's what I
Speaker 2: called him. Every every line of dialogue I think I
Speaker 2: predicted before he said it, except for the one time
Speaker 2: when he had Harah helped captive and was proposing marriage
Speaker 2: to her and basically say he'd stop and she says, okay,
Speaker 2: so if I marry you, and he cuts her off
Speaker 2: and goes if, And how dare you say if?
Speaker 3: Bro, did you think she was going to be enthusiastic.
Speaker 2: About marrying you? You're literally holding her the captive.
Speaker 1: Was a pretty pretty extravagant proposal.
Speaker 2: But other than that, I did I was whispered to
Speaker 2: my wife right near the end, Thomas, like we were
Speaker 2: talking about the I was like, why does he keep
Speaker 2: this general guy around?
Speaker 3: He never listens to him. Everything the general says, he does.
Speaker 6: The office, he does the op. Yeah, I was like,
Speaker 6: every single time I felt so bad for that guy.
Speaker 3: So I was cracking up.
Speaker 2: The other part that I'd be cracking up in that
Speaker 2: scene was they dropped this massive, you know, siege bridge
Speaker 2: onto the tower and no sense. Hair goes and and
Speaker 2: and fights to delay. Okay, fine, Then it went why
Speaker 2: aren't they burning this? Why aren't they were here? I'm
Speaker 2: just shooting this with flaming arrows. Maybe they ran out
Speaker 2: of fire or something, I don't know. Then after Harra
Speaker 2: does her whole dramatic scene, then they start burning it.
Speaker 6: That was the plan the whole time.
Speaker 2: So that was one of the things that, you know,
Speaker 2: it's one of the things if I take the movie seriously,
Speaker 2: which perhaps I take it too seriously.
Speaker 3: I rolled my eyes and groan, which I did. But
Speaker 3: also it's funny, and you know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't think they told that.
Speaker 5: I don't think Wolf told the drummer guy on top
Speaker 5: of that thing what it was going to do, because
Speaker 5: he lying off at the end, he looked really so
Speaker 5: prized and terrified that it starts like falling towards the walls.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I'm not sure, what do you expected it
Speaker 1: was gonna happen there?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just felt that whole contraption was so silly.
Speaker 6: I was like, wait, it's not a normal siege tower.
Speaker 6: What it extends?
Speaker 2: Like, I was wondering what they were gonna do with that,
Speaker 2: Like there's no wheels, how are they gonna Are they
Speaker 2: gonna lift.
Speaker 3: The whole thing?
Speaker 2: Oh, they're just tipping over a giant wooden bridge and
Speaker 2: hoping it doesn't snap in half when it hits the top.
Speaker 3: Of the wall.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 6: I felt that was very silly, but I was like,
Speaker 6: you know what whatever.
Speaker 1: So, so, one thing that the sam brought up was
Speaker 1: the fact that they from the very beginning, they're intentionally
Speaker 1: echoing the Jackson movies.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, I mean, did you find that off putting at all,
Speaker 1: Thomas or did you like that or do you have
Speaker 1: any thoughts on that?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 5: I expected it, So I was just like, okay, and
Speaker 5: this takes place in in the same universe. I felt
Speaker 5: the Hobbit movies did that a lot worse with some
Speaker 5: of their they're they're grown inducing callbacks but or call
Speaker 5: forwards because they're prequels.
Speaker 1: Whatever.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I I I expected them to
Speaker 4: call back to the the Jackson movies a lot, So
Speaker 4: I guess I was.
Speaker 6: It just kind of rolled off me. I was the
Speaker 6: when it.
Speaker 5: Started to strain credulity for me was the the Gandalf
Speaker 5: thing at the end. I'm like, you didn't. I'm like,
Speaker 5: I get why Saraman's here because he literally does take
Speaker 5: control of Eisengard after these events.
Speaker 1: And I think in the in the appendix that yeah, it's.
Speaker 3: Went frail off, like at frail Off's Crowning. Believe.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it was cool that they got that they
Speaker 5: got altered and alternate take from Christopher Lee from the
Speaker 5: live action movies to it to give him a line
Speaker 5: of dialogue, although I wasn't expecting it to be just
Speaker 5: one line of dialogue. And when when he speaks, I
Speaker 5: look over at my brother and my brother's like, that's
Speaker 5: all you.
Speaker 1: Get if it's laugh But it was a little lane
Speaker 1: that they used him in a lot of the promotional material. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but uh.
Speaker 5: It strained credulity for me that she gets a letter
Speaker 5: from Gandalf, Like wait, how did how did he never mind?
Speaker 5: Like in my head I was trying to figure out ways,
Speaker 5: like I'm like did I'm like, okay, he can talk
Speaker 5: to the eagles. Did the eagle tell him all about
Speaker 5: hera or something? Or I'm like I was just like,
Speaker 5: but at that point, it was the end of the movie,
Speaker 5: so I was just like, okay that that this really
Speaker 5: doesn't make any sense, but whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the part about that was like, it's just something
Speaker 2: about something about Gandalf taking interests in rings, which I
Speaker 2: don't think he would have been at that point.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, and his ear his life is timeline.
Speaker 1: That was kind of random. Yeah, those kind of random.
Speaker 1: When they threw the orcs in.
Speaker 6: There, yes, that was like that.
Speaker 1: Also, why are they there? And why are they suddenly
Speaker 1: digging for rings?
Speaker 5: I thought they were funny, but it's like it didn't
Speaker 5: make sense.
Speaker 2: They were pulling pulling rings off dead bodies like mortar
Speaker 2: wants rings, were collecting rings as if someone had been
Speaker 2: the one ring, and just they weren't aware of it.
Speaker 2: I guess it's early enough. Sorro I hadn't really this
Speaker 2: is what how long before.
Speaker 1: I think he was starting to kind of manifest in Yeah.
Speaker 6: I think I think so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's just like we're just gonna collect every
Speaker 2: ring we can, hopefully one of them is the one rings?
Speaker 3: How many are going to be in Middle Earth?
Speaker 1: Right? Because at that point, I think Saren didn't even
Speaker 1: know that the ring had been found.
Speaker 6: I'm not sure that what yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, but he knows that until Golm we're getting out
Speaker 2: of I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I forget when Saren actually finds out that the
Speaker 3: one and survived.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know the exact timeline. But the easter
Speaker 1: egg is I'm trying to blame on their real names,
Speaker 1: but that the Orcs that the voices are Mary and
Speaker 1: Pippin from the Jackson movies.
Speaker 5: Really yeah, yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 6: They were there.
Speaker 5: The banter of the Orcs did remind me of Shagrat
Speaker 5: and gore Bag from the books, you know, where they're.
Speaker 1: Just like yeah, I mean, I felt like it was fine.
Speaker 1: It's just the whole placement was weird.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah it was.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I was just like one like I thought it was.
Speaker 5: It was interesting though, that they because the book describes
Speaker 5: when when Helm is going around, you know, killing people,
Speaker 5: and they say he's the wraith. In the book, they
Speaker 5: say he stalked like a snow troll through the camp,
Speaker 5: and so I thought it was interesting that they think
Speaker 5: Helm's the supernatural thing yet that there is also a
Speaker 5: troll there. Like, so they managed to split the difference.
Speaker 6: And have both so it was interesting.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 5: In terms of Gandalf, though, I couldn't help thinking when
Speaker 5: when she gets the letter, I was like, like, they almost.
Speaker 6: Could have done this would have been terrible.
Speaker 5: But if they had done this, like it's almost like
Speaker 5: Gandalf's almost like Nick Fury at the end, you know, like, yeah,
Speaker 5: that's what I was thinking.
Speaker 6: I'm here to talk to you about the fellowship.
Speaker 1: You know, right, is the beginning of the new multiverse building.
Speaker 6: Please know?
Speaker 2: Oh, this is this is criticism I thought of. I
Speaker 2: have this for Tolkien's movies as well. It really bugs
Speaker 2: me that when a threat is coming from Eisngard towards
Speaker 2: ederas they go to Helm's Deep, which is in the
Speaker 2: direction of Eisengard, if I'm not mistaken on my Roan geography,
Speaker 2: Whereas what was supposed to happen and both in this
Speaker 2: and at least in part in uh in the original
Speaker 2: Two Towers movie or Two Tower book rather is that
Speaker 2: they they fight at like the Fords of Isisen or thereabout,
Speaker 2: and lose right and then, which Theodin didn't but some
Speaker 2: of his his men did. He was writing out to
Speaker 2: join them and then retreat to Helm's Deep. When you're
Speaker 2: you're when you run to Helm's Deep when the enemy
Speaker 2: is coming from Eisngard or that direction, you're running towards
Speaker 2: danger when you really should just go to don Harrow.
Speaker 6: But no, that's that's true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because in the and.
Speaker 2: It does mention in the appendix that Helm goes out
Speaker 2: to you know, to the Fords of Eisen essentially and
Speaker 2: loses there while is also being beset on the on
Speaker 2: the Eastern front by it doesn't really say who.
Speaker 3: And and then after he.
Speaker 2: Was the church Helmesteep. I think the Coursiers were attacking
Speaker 2: Gondor at the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that's why.
Speaker 2: I think it's that's why that's why Gondor isn't able
Speaker 2: to help, because they are being attacked by the Corsairs,
Speaker 2: So I don't think it's clear if they're being attacked
Speaker 2: by south Anders, Roger Orcs whoever.
Speaker 5: That's why I thought it was it was neat to
Speaker 5: have the Padrum and the Muma kill in the movie
Speaker 5: because I was like, Okay, I'm like, these guys are
Speaker 5: already attacking Gondor at this same time, and I'm like,
Speaker 5: so they're.
Speaker 6: Kind of in the region.
Speaker 5: So the fact that Wolf could like hire some to
Speaker 5: supplement his own forces. I was like, okay, but again,
Speaker 5: that's another thing where I'm like, I know that because
Speaker 5: I have this crazy, weird encyclopedic knowledge of these books.
Speaker 5: And it's like, but I don't know how how other
Speaker 5: people are gonna they'll seem kind of random that the
Speaker 5: oliphants are there and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and I don't really know if it makes
Speaker 1: sense having a watch her there, but it's kind of
Speaker 1: cool scene to watch her eat an oliphant.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, well I thought.
Speaker 5: I'm like, okay, I'm like I always assumed there was
Speaker 5: more than one of those, because I'm like, okay, I'm like,
Speaker 5: it's one of those nameless things that gets Liker mentioned.
Speaker 5: So I'm like okay, but it reminded me of like
Speaker 5: because it was so big that it had trees growing
Speaker 5: on it and it could fake as like a little island.
Speaker 5: It immediate, I'm like, that thing's just like a Zelda boss.
Speaker 3: That's exactly what I thought of too. Yeah, I'm seeing this.
Speaker 5: I'm like, this is like a giant octa rock or
Speaker 5: something that the giant Octa Rock boss just sitting there
Speaker 5: in the lake.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it's immediately what I thought of when I
Speaker 3: have seen this in Broath of Wild.
Speaker 1: That's funny. Yeah, I will say that, I mean this
Speaker 1: kind of connects that. Generally speaking, I'm okay with most
Speaker 1: of the echoes to the Jackson movies and that it's
Speaker 1: part of the Jackson verse first of all, So I
Speaker 1: mean we can expect that I would be much more
Speaker 1: critical if, say Rings of Power were, you know, so
Speaker 1: explicit with some of these things, which I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: you can't escape Jackson at all if you're doing a
Speaker 1: Totien adaptation at this point, so it's going to be there.
Speaker 1: But as far as the on the Nose, I'm more
Speaker 1: okay with that. With within the Jackson verse, I kind
Speaker 1: of like some of the even the soundtrack, you know,
Speaker 1: nods the continuity with the row Herem theme. I actually
Speaker 1: kind of appreciated that it is something kind of special
Speaker 1: walking into the movie theater and they're playing the Rohan theme,
Speaker 1: you know, it just kind of does bring back that nostalgia,
Speaker 1: which to a extent I appreciate. Now. Also, like even
Speaker 1: in Tolkien, a lot of times we see echoes of
Speaker 1: events happened across time, and so I'm even okay with
Speaker 1: some of that. Now, I do agree that it's a
Speaker 1: little bit too explicit at Helms where you have, you know,
Speaker 1: the army coming up over the horizon at the last minute.
Speaker 1: That was a bit too much. But I'm okay with
Speaker 1: most of the echoes to a point. But my personal taste,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: My biggest issue was when at the battle in front
Speaker 2: of Ataras, when all they were heros.
Speaker 3: Shout out death.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I did not like that at all because it cheapened.
Speaker 2: It's for any for like, for like, any normal consumer,
Speaker 2: which I don't know if anybody but extreme tolkienens went
Speaker 2: to see this movie anyway, based on its sales, Hummers,
Speaker 2: but the normal person like it's like, oh, that's just
Speaker 2: what they're here, charged when they're right into battle. No,
Speaker 2: it's not right. I think Jackson adapted it fairly well. Right,
Speaker 2: it's obviously in the in the movie, you know, not
Speaker 2: as it takes place in the book, where in the
Speaker 2: book it's much more cry of despair and hopelessness from
Speaker 2: Almyre right after he sees his his uncle, dad and
Speaker 2: his sister yeah, also apparently dead, and it's you know,
Speaker 2: he kind of just does death death, you know, ride
Speaker 2: to ruin of the world's ending. I think they adapted
Speaker 2: that fairly well, because you can see how Theodat riding
Speaker 2: over this the crest of this hill and staring at
Speaker 2: this force of mortar and going, we're all going to die.
Speaker 2: There is like there is no hope, We're all going
Speaker 2: to die, but we're going to die, you know, dying
Speaker 2: as men should, you know, as as we can fighting evil. Right,
Speaker 2: And there's there's something really Tolkien ask about that because.
Speaker 3: In like the is it the I think it is.
Speaker 3: The first chapter of the Sistem Early says death.
Speaker 2: Is you know, the gift of men, right, and so
Speaker 2: this is something that they should not fear in that,
Speaker 2: you know, men have been made to fear death, and
Speaker 2: that's in part you know how the Neumanorians were corrupted
Speaker 2: ultimately because they feared death and they saw it immortality,
Speaker 2: which was not theirs to seek.
Speaker 3: And so like, yeah, you have that in.
Speaker 2: And the Jackson movies really well without him, because this
Speaker 2: is an unwittable fight. They're riding to their deaths. They'll
Speaker 2: accept that. It's not the same thing here. This looks
Speaker 2: like a very winnable battle at Aderas, So I yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just like, this is what the row HEREM shot.
Speaker 5: No, it's not.
Speaker 3: It's so you're you're kind of cheapening that moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And obviously later when Harris says that she's married
Speaker 1: to death or whatever, they're trying to pull in that
Speaker 1: same idea, right, And I agree that that does kind
Speaker 1: of cheapen it, and it just seems out of place
Speaker 1: in the moment. Yeah, I mean, any any other thoughts,
Speaker 1: anything else that you think is worth bringing up either
Speaker 1: four or against.
Speaker 3: I'm sure I have some other thoughts, but not at
Speaker 3: the moment.
Speaker 5: I was just thinking, when when I was watching the movie,
Speaker 5: like how much of like and they could have leaned
Speaker 5: into the more of how much a valkyrie type character
Speaker 5: Harra sort of is, especially in those because the Norse
Speaker 5: can't seem to decide what valkyrie are. In some stories
Speaker 5: they are very much kind of semi divine or or
Speaker 5: numbered among the acer, and in other stories they are
Speaker 5: mortal women. So I thought, it's it's like, okay, I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 5: I like that there's sort of echoes of the valkyrie here,
Speaker 5: but I I thought that they could have leaned a
Speaker 5: little bit more into that. But but I was just
Speaker 5: I was thinking that in the in the sense of, like,
Speaker 5: I know there's people who are gonna complain that she's
Speaker 5: here at all, but I'm like, guys, you need to
Speaker 5: read the edo's.
Speaker 3: More so, what did you think of the name Harah?
Speaker 6: I don't know, I kept one.
Speaker 5: I'm like, I'm like, it should be Freya would be
Speaker 5: more appropriate, but then there's freil Off, so that would
Speaker 5: get confusing for like casual viewers.
Speaker 1: But I'm like, yeah, they could handle Sara and Saramon.
Speaker 5: I mean, I mean that's true, although I know people
Speaker 5: like casuals who like hate that that there's two bad
Speaker 5: guys that start with S.
Speaker 1: In the movie.
Speaker 5: But but yeah, like I'm like, Okay, I get why
Speaker 5: they gave her a name that starts with H because
Speaker 5: most of the other members of the royal family.
Speaker 3: Yeah, her brothers, both her brothers and.
Speaker 6: Her and their fathers. Yeah, I'm like, but it's yeah
Speaker 6: and Pluss.
Speaker 5: You know, it just makes me think of hera from
Speaker 5: Star Wars Rebels.
Speaker 3: Maybe think of the Greek goddess that's too.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but yeah, it's like, yeah, it just seems like
Speaker 5: like I've seen too many characters recently with that name
Speaker 5: in things, So I think it's overused, but I was
Speaker 5: just like, eh, okay, I name choice could be better.
Speaker 1: Although to be fair, in Snorri Charlson's prose eta, he
Speaker 1: does introduce it by saying that the Seir, the Norse
Speaker 1: gods were actually originally came from Troy, So that that
Speaker 1: kind of oh that the sou I mean realistically more
Speaker 1: to the point now, it just seems culturally out of place.
Speaker 6: They always wanted to connect stuff to Troy because in
Speaker 6: h History of the Kings of Britain right by.
Speaker 5: Geoffrey of Monmouth, he makes the ancestors of King Arthur
Speaker 5: come from Troy.
Speaker 6: They were always trying to work Troy.
Speaker 1: And stuff, right. The barbarians always want to claim that
Speaker 1: they are the true inheritors of the Hellenistic tradition. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean anything else, And I think we covered a
Speaker 1: lot of the most important topics. But if there's anything
Speaker 1: else you guys want to bring up before we close it.
Speaker 3: Up, I don't think so fair enough.
Speaker 1: Well, I enjoyed this conversation. I feel like it was useful,
Speaker 1: you know, even if we're coming out from slightly different angles.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we are at least a pro
Speaker 1: scheing more or less the same general territory in that. Okay,
Speaker 1: it's it's better than Rings of Power. Maybe not quite
Speaker 1: as good as Jackson's original movies, you know, at least
Speaker 1: on a sliding scale. I like this, and I want
Speaker 1: more of it, at least more in this direction. Right,
Speaker 1: That's how I feel kind of coming out of this.
Speaker 2: Hey, if we if we left Jackson's movies on a
Speaker 2: high and then went down a big old slope with
Speaker 2: the Hobbit movies bottomed out with Rings of Power, and
Speaker 2: they're just starting up up the back slope, that's that's great.
Speaker 2: That's if that's the director we'rekiding to keep going in
Speaker 2: that direction. I'm good with this being a stepping stone.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm more skeptical of some of the other projects
Speaker 5: in the Jackson verse coming down.
Speaker 3: I don't how I feel about Hunt for Gollum.
Speaker 6: Yeah, very skeptical, very skeptical.
Speaker 5: I mean, I like that Andy Serkis is directing, but
Speaker 5: I'm just I'm I'm very skeptical of that project.
Speaker 3: Don't need any more about Gollum. His story is told
Speaker 3: and done.
Speaker 2: And I mean, if it focuses on Aragorn, if you
Speaker 2: get a good actor to play him.
Speaker 3: I can't imagine BIGL. Mortenson is going to do it.
Speaker 1: Well, apparently he's been given a pretty big offer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know how that's going to happen. But anyhow,
Speaker 2: DHM the entire time, you know, if the focus is
Speaker 2: on Aragorn, and I'm more than happy to see you know,
Speaker 2: the story of Aragorn, especially like you know the things
Speaker 2: he references, you know how he and he and you know,
Speaker 2: the rangers like kept lands like the Shy are safe.
Speaker 3: There's lots you can do there. You have a lot
Speaker 3: of free reign there. But I don't think Gollam is
Speaker 3: a character that needs more screen time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's fair. Just be interested to see
Speaker 1: kind of what plays out there.
Speaker 5: And I do want more more animated Lord of the
Speaker 5: Rings stuff please, Like, you know, I feel like that's.
Speaker 6: A medium, which you know.
Speaker 5: It just for fantasy in general, is a great medium
Speaker 5: of animation. And I just think that, you know, there's
Speaker 5: there's a lot of room to and a lot of
Speaker 5: great Tolkien stories that can be adapted by means of animation,
Speaker 5: and I just I want more of that. But I
Speaker 5: I just hope that you know, they don't take the
Speaker 5: the at least initial, you know, underperforming of this movie
Speaker 5: to be like, oh, we should never do anything like
Speaker 5: this again.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I do worry a little bit about that,
Speaker 1: the fact that doesn't seem to be performing very well,
Speaker 1: you know, if.
Speaker 6: That in America it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but no, Andrew, you said you haven't really watched
Speaker 2: much anime or animation animated shows at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just not something I tend to be. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't watch a lot of anything anymore really just
Speaker 1: for times sake. But yeah, I've just never been super
Speaker 1: drawn to animation, at least not as an adult.
Speaker 2: Well, let me make one recommendation. This is a show
Speaker 2: I will recommend to literally everybody. It's Avatar The Last Airbender.
Speaker 2: Now this this, this is the original animated show. There
Speaker 2: was a live action remake the first season anyway, that
Speaker 2: came out on Netflix. It' stuff very good.
Speaker 3: There was also a.
Speaker 2: Movie that came out in too Is in ten just
Speaker 2: called The Last Airbender, which is horrible. But the original
Speaker 2: animated show is one of the most edifying and inspiring.
Speaker 3: Stories I've watched ever.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's it's I totally agree with that.
Speaker 5: It's in like my top you know, fictional universes or
Speaker 5: fictional stories. Ever, like you know, it ranks extremely high.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say, if nothing else, this movie has
Speaker 1: opened me up to that that that avenue, and so
Speaker 1: I'm definitely more open to that than I probably was before.
Speaker 1: So maybe maybe that's a win. If if nothing else, yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely all right. Cool, Well, I guess we can go
Speaker 1: ahead and wrap it there. I appreciate this conversation. Thanks again,
Speaker 1: Thomas and Sam for joining me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much. This has been This is
Speaker 3: an absolute blast.
Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you as always, Andrew, this has been terrific.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely all right, So thank you for listening to
Speaker 1: this conversation. I hope that you found this as useful
Speaker 1: as I did, and I would love to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 1: If you've seen the movie, and I think that you should,
Speaker 1: you should give it a fair shake, go in with
Speaker 1: an open mind, see what you think. Then I would
Speaker 1: love to hear your thoughts. You can send me a
Speaker 1: message or give me a comment some irrelevant on x
Speaker 1: over at andrew In Snyder. You can email me at
Speaker 1: Mythicmindpodcast at gmail dot com. And you know, I would
Speaker 1: love to share some of your thoughts on the show
Speaker 1: and interact with them a little bit, and so let
Speaker 1: me know your thoughts that if you enjoyed this conversation
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Speaker 1: things like this on a regular basis, than I would
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Speaker 1: live access to the twelve week Lord of the Rings
Speaker 1: course that begins in early January, which is not that
Speaker 1: far away from now, so we'll be reading through the
Speaker 1: entire Lord of the Rings together. There'll be a couple
Speaker 1: videos every week that goes into some aspect of context
Speaker 1: or the philosophy of Tolkien, or that will serve as
Speaker 1: a reading companion for that week's reading. And then we'll
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Speaker 1: at this time, you can always share this around, make
Speaker 1: sure you subscribe, you know, all the normal things to
Speaker 1: increase range and increase an audience, they'll definitely be greatly appreciated.
Speaker 1: But I do want to go ahead and think by
Speaker 1: name all of my Tier two patrons and higher, and
Speaker 1: so that's Mark, Aaron d Ebby, Paul Aaron s Andrew,
Speaker 1: g Andrew m Arturo, Brandon me E E and Jeremiah, Joscelyn,
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Speaker 1: much for your support, which helps me to keep doing
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Speaker 1: my Tier one patrons as well. You definitely don't go unnoticed.
Speaker 1: Now before we go, I do have one book recommendation
Speaker 1: for you, although actually don't have a physical copy around
Speaker 1: me at the time, but that is Tolkien and the
Speaker 1: Great War The Threshold of Middle Earth. This book by
Speaker 1: John garth Is. It's one of my favorite biographical looks
Speaker 1: at Tolkien, specifically looking at this segment of his life. Now.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed the Carpenter biography, which takes more of
Speaker 1: a broad scale, more holistic view. I think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of very significant and just interesting and fun insights
Speaker 1: that come from the Carpenter book, But this book takes
Speaker 1: a segmented view, really focusing in on his time in
Speaker 1: and around World War One. I think provides just a
Speaker 1: deeper level of appreciation or not appreciation, but deeper level
Speaker 1: of insight in this very formative time of Tolkien's life
Speaker 1: and the way that that translated into the beginnings of
Speaker 1: his legendarium. This fascinating, engaging, interesting. You can pick up
Speaker 1: the book or you can listen to the audiobook. And
Speaker 1: again that was Tolkien and the Great War. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: that's it. For now, I appreciate you joining me, and
Speaker 1: I look forward to what lies on the road ahead.
Speaker 1: Until next time, God's Speak.
Speaker 2: Contented count
Speaker 6: Cont countest