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<v Speaker 4>You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking

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<v Speaker 4>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 4>written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every

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<v Speaker 4>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 4>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your

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<v Speaker 4>host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.

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<v Speaker 2>Good Evening. The World Encyclopedia of serial Killers is the

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<v Speaker 2>most comprehensive set of its kind in history of true

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<v Speaker 2>crime publishing. Written in compiling by Susan Hall, the four

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<v Speaker 2>volume set has more than sixteen hundred entries of male

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<v Speaker 2>and female serial killers from around the world. Defined by

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<v Speaker 2>the FBI as a person who murders three or more

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<v Speaker 2>people over a period of time with a hiatus of

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<v Speaker 2>weeks or months between murders. Serial killers have walked among

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<v Speaker 2>us from the dawn of time, as these books will demonstrate.

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<v Speaker 2>While the entries to these volumes will continue to grow,

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<v Speaker 2>The FBI estimates that they are at least fifty serial

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<v Speaker 2>killers operating in the United States at any given time.

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<v Speaker 2>The World Encyclopedia of Serial Killers is as complete as

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<v Speaker 2>possible through the end of two thousand and seventeen. In

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<v Speaker 2>June twenty twenty, the set begins with Volume one, Letters

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<v Speaker 2>A to D. The entries include Ted Bundy, The Candyman,

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<v Speaker 2>Dean Coral, Angel of Death, Killer, Donald Harvey, the ABC Killer,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Bodies in the Barrel Murders, among many others.

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<v Speaker 2>You will find these killers and approximately five hundred others

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<v Speaker 2>in this first book in the series of the World

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<v Speaker 2>Encyclopedia of Serial Killers, Volume one A to D, with

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<v Speaker 2>my special guests, journalist and author Susan Hall. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 2>the program, and thank you very much for this interview.

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<v Speaker 2>Susan Hall, thank you for asking.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm pleased to be part of your show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for joining me. Let me start

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<v Speaker 2>with how you came to want to write this, compile

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<v Speaker 2>and write this encyclopedia, the World Encyclopedia of Serial Killers.

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<v Speaker 2>How did you come to this project?

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, it started out just as a hobby of mine

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<v Speaker 5>way back in the early nineteen seventies, I heard about

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<v Speaker 5>a killer in Michigan who was killing co eds at

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<v Speaker 5>Eastern Michigan University and the University of Michigan, and a

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<v Speaker 5>book was finally put out called the Michigan Murders. And

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<v Speaker 5>this was a young man named John Norman Collins who

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<v Speaker 5>killed seven co eds up there, and his uncle, who

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<v Speaker 5>was a state highway patrolman, was instrumental in his capture.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, tell us just how you put this together. What

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<v Speaker 2>was your crimetera? Because there are a lot of serial

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<v Speaker 2>killers in here that I have not read about before,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've read various compilations. So tell us the process

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<v Speaker 2>that you went undertook to be able to compile and

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<v Speaker 2>write this encyclopedia.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, in the beginning, Dan, it was just for my

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<v Speaker 5>own information. It started out as the hobby of mine.

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<v Speaker 5>And I realized I had, you know, all of these

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<v Speaker 5>sheets and sheets and sheets of paper because I printed

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<v Speaker 5>it all out that I was keeping in a book,

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<v Speaker 5>and I started compiling it into some sort of a book,

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<v Speaker 5>and I thought, you know what, other people write encyclopedias,

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<v Speaker 5>and they have a hundred fifty or one hundred and

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<v Speaker 5>seventy six, which I have, both of them here on

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<v Speaker 5>my desk, and I thought, I don't know how many

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<v Speaker 5>I've got, but I've got a lot more than that.

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<v Speaker 5>So my husband and I discussed it, and we decided

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<v Speaker 5>that I would put it in book form, and if

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<v Speaker 5>I could get someone to publish it, that was fine.

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<v Speaker 5>Otherwise I had a.

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<v Speaker 2>Nice book for myself, fantastic and tell us about the

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<v Speaker 2>plans for the other volumes that we just alluded to

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<v Speaker 2>in the introduction.

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<v Speaker 5>The volume two E through L is going to be available.

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<v Speaker 5>I believe the date is August. The twenty fourth. Book

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<v Speaker 5>three and four do not have a published date yet,

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<v Speaker 5>but my guest would be October and December.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting, before we start providing some really dramatic examples of

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<v Speaker 2>some of the serial killers that I had not heard of,

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<v Speaker 2>and you have a fair amount of detail about some

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<v Speaker 2>of these serial killers. Were there any surprises in this

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<v Speaker 2>putting this book together? Even though you have been a

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<v Speaker 2>big fan of serial killers and true crime for many years,

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<v Speaker 2>were there any real dramatic surprises in putting this together?

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<v Speaker 5>Probably the biggest was how many killers there were all

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<v Speaker 5>over the world. I thought it was, you know, more

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<v Speaker 5>or less just a us thing I hadn't heard of.

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<v Speaker 5>Any But as I got to investigating, I found more

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<v Speaker 5>and more and more, you said, Now, I went to libraries,

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<v Speaker 5>I searched the internet, endlessly compiled. There's all kinds of

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<v Speaker 5>lists out there of serial killers. You can get serial

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<v Speaker 5>killers by country, you know, just endless. I had. When

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<v Speaker 5>I was almost finished, so that I could turn the

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<v Speaker 5>book over to the publisher, a new list came out

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<v Speaker 5>with over two hundred new serial killers, all in Russia.

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<v Speaker 5>And I ask and was granted an extension because I

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<v Speaker 5>felt they had to be in the book.

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<v Speaker 2>Certainly. Certainly. Now let's go to some incredible examples. And

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<v Speaker 2>one of the entries in there, writ in the letter

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<v Speaker 2>A and near the beginning of the book, is Wolfgang Abel.

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<v Speaker 2>And you say he was born in nineteen fifty nine

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<v Speaker 2>and born in Dusseldorf, West Germany, and his partner Furland

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<v Speaker 2>Omario Furland. He was born in nineteen sixty and born

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<v Speaker 2>in Padua, Italy. And you say they began their murders

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<v Speaker 2>in August nineteen seventy seven in Italy. Tell us how

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<v Speaker 2>they started, and tell us a little bit about the

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<v Speaker 2>characteristics of their crimes and some of the crimes that

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<v Speaker 2>they committed. In this some of them more serial killing crimes.

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<v Speaker 5>The very first one that I know about, they burned

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<v Speaker 5>alive gypsy who was also a drug addict. Another you know,

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<v Speaker 5>they asked people to death, They stabbed people to death.

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<v Speaker 5>It's just horrific what these killers do to people.

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<v Speaker 2>They crushed the skulls of two priests with a hammer,

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<v Speaker 2>you write in Verona, and they burned a sleeping hitchhiker

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<v Speaker 2>to death. They murdered a homosexual priest in Trento with

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<v Speaker 2>a nail hammered into his head, and then they hammered

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<v Speaker 2>a chisel with a wooden cross on it into his head,

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<v Speaker 2>and you write at each crime scene they left the leaflet.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell us a little bit about this leaflet and what

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<v Speaker 2>was it contained.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, it had the name Ludwig on it over a

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<v Speaker 5>Nazi eagle and a swastika. It had a slogan for

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<v Speaker 5>each murder and the reasons for the killing. They and

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<v Speaker 5>victims were chosen for any reason that Abel and Furland

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<v Speaker 5>could come up with. It was just you know, miscellaneous.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the typical victims homosexual prostitutes. And you say what

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<v Speaker 2>they considered sub humans as well?

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, well, like the coward drug addict.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, How was Abel and Furland caught? What happened? Let

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<v Speaker 2>me think, Well, they were caught.

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<v Speaker 5>They were caught in Yes, with gasoline and a crowd

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<v Speaker 5>and a discotheque. I won't even try to say the name.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't speak French. But that was in nineteen eighty four,

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<v Speaker 5>and they were charged with seven twenty seven counts of murder.

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<v Speaker 5>Between the years nineteen seventy seven and nineteen eighty four.

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<v Speaker 5>They didn't go to trial for almost two years, and

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<v Speaker 5>they were only found guilty of ten murders and were

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<v Speaker 5>sentenced to thirty years in prison, which I understand is

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<v Speaker 5>the maximum they can get in Italy.

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<v Speaker 2>Now you right, though, that they were strangely released on

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<v Speaker 2>bail pending their appeals, So normally there has to be

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<v Speaker 2>some grounds for those appeals before anything like releasing them

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<v Speaker 2>on bail would be considered. What did they do once

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<v Speaker 2>they were released on bail.

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<v Speaker 5>Though, Well, they left the area. Abel went to a

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<v Speaker 5>town called Mestrino, and Ferland traveled to another town which

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<v Speaker 5>he was recaptured in Crete a false name, and they

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<v Speaker 5>were both returned to Italy.

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<v Speaker 2>Now you write, the appeals court sentenced them each to

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<v Speaker 2>twenty seven years in prison incredibly. In November twelve, twenty ten,

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<v Speaker 2>Mury o'furlan was released on probation for good behavior. And

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<v Speaker 2>then you write that Wolfgang Able was freed on November fourth,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty and sixteen. Remarkably.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, yes, I find that remarkable.

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<v Speaker 2>It is remarkable too. I know about Canadian sentencing and

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<v Speaker 2>you see all kinds of cases in these in this book.

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<v Speaker 2>They are all about serial killers, and you have we'll

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it, but there's a couple people that are

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<v Speaker 2>such strong suspects you include them even though they aren't

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<v Speaker 2>officially been convicted of being a serial killer. It was

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<v Speaker 2>interesting how many of these convicted serial killers, multiple convicted

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<v Speaker 2>obviously of multiple murders, were released eventually, even despite life sentences.

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<v Speaker 5>I know, and I don't understand that at all. I

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<v Speaker 5>think when you get life it should mean that I

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<v Speaker 5>do too.

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<v Speaker 2>I certainly. I think it's a slippery slope when you

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<v Speaker 2>start exempting people with a life sentence that doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>an actual life sentence, and it is strictly or incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>it's an incredible example when you have serial killers in Europe,

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<v Speaker 2>and I would say potential for Canada as well too,

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<v Speaker 2>and they do have cases of people being released despite

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<v Speaker 2>what you would call a life sentence. So real misnomer,

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<v Speaker 2>this life sentence, but these people released. Let's get back

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<v Speaker 2>to some more of these incredible serial killers that you

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<v Speaker 2>have in this world. In side klopedia of serial killers,

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<v Speaker 2>let's talk about the beasts of Montremtre. And I apologize

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<v Speaker 2>for the mispronunciation. But a person named Theory Paulin who

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<v Speaker 2>was born in Martinique but lived in France, and he

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<v Speaker 2>was homosexual, and he met eventually when he was working

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<v Speaker 2>as a waiter at a transvestite nightclub in Paris. He

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<v Speaker 2>met Jean Thiery Matharin, who was nineteen years old, and

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<v Speaker 2>they became lovers right away. In October nineteen eighty four,

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<v Speaker 2>a woman named Germaine maybe it's a male, I'm not sure.

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<v Speaker 2>Germaine petitoat ninety one years old, was assaulted, but they survived,

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<v Speaker 2>but were too traumatized to give police a description. They

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<v Speaker 2>went on to continue with terrorizing elderly people. The next

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<v Speaker 2>victim was eighty three years old, beaten and smothered.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that the same night.

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<v Speaker 2>It was the same night. Incredibly, that was the motive.

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<v Speaker 2>What was their motive for these crimes and what was

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<v Speaker 2>their hall that first night that you report.

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<v Speaker 5>I think that their initial purpose was robbery. Why they

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<v Speaker 5>felt a head they had to kill these old women.

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<v Speaker 5>I haven't you know they're defenseless, m h I you

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<v Speaker 5>know they they beat.

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<v Speaker 2>Them, They beat them, They robbed them.

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<v Speaker 5>You wrote, robbed them, had them smothered with a pillow. Altogether,

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<v Speaker 5>I think they murdered like eight women or eight more women,

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<v Speaker 5>which made ten altogether.

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<v Speaker 2>You're right, they might have started off with robbery as

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<v Speaker 2>a motive, but they seemed to enjoy themselves. Some had

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<v Speaker 2>bags over their heads and one was forced to drink

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<v Speaker 2>drain cleaner. So some sadism actually involved here, and Paulin

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<v Speaker 2>and Mathaman spent their nights dancing and drinking champagne and

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<v Speaker 2>snorting coke, using the victims cash and credit cards. You

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<v Speaker 2>write about a second wave of murders December eighty five

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<v Speaker 2>to June eighty six, eight more elderly women were murdered.

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<v Speaker 2>Police detectives know that it's the same person. They're determined

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<v Speaker 2>as the same person that killed nine in nineteen eighty four. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>in late eighty six, you say that Paulin attacked a

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<v Speaker 2>coke dealer with a bat but didn't kill him. What

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<v Speaker 2>was the sentence for that attack.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm that coke dealer and you know I let's see,

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<v Speaker 5>he was arrested and served one year in jail.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, incredible, he was released. He continued to lavish lifestyle.

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<v Speaker 2>You write, using stolen credit cards. What disease does Paullen discovery?

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<v Speaker 2>He has?

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<v Speaker 5>He has eight he found the AlSi had age.

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<v Speaker 2>So in November, this doesn't deter him from murdering and

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<v Speaker 2>continuing to murder. He murders a seventy nine year old

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<v Speaker 2>woman and then attacks a woman named Berth Philanatri Fhilanatiary

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<v Speaker 2>and she's eighty seven years old, and left her for dead.

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<v Speaker 2>The last victim, you right, is Genevieve Germont, and he

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<v Speaker 2>strangled her two days later. However, you write that birthday

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<v Speaker 2>and I mispronounced with Philanoi. The eighty seven year old

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<v Speaker 2>recovered on the killer's birthday. Tell us what she's able

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<v Speaker 2>to do for police, what she's able to give police.

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<v Speaker 5>She gave them a very good description and a local

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<v Speaker 5>police inspector recognized him from her description as he was

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<v Speaker 5>walking down the street, and he was arrested and admitted

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<v Speaker 5>all of the murders and his relationship with Matherin.

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<v Speaker 2>And as a result, you write that Theory became ill

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty eight because of the effects of AIDS

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<v Speaker 2>and he died in hospital in eighty nine. But Matherin,

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<v Speaker 2>on the other however, was tried and convicted of the

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<v Speaker 2>first nine murders and he was given again we just

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned this. He was given a life sentence plus eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>years without parole. I guess eighteen years without the eligibility parole.

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<v Speaker 2>He was paroled in January two thousand and nine. Again

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<v Speaker 2>clear evidence of why on earth he was able to

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<v Speaker 2>be released.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I don't understand their thinking. These people cannot be rehabilitated.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, certainly, certainly. Now we have another case I thought

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<v Speaker 2>was very very interesting as well, and we talked about

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<v Speaker 2>James Lee Crummell from Michigan. This is a child molester

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<v Speaker 2>and child killer and at you right, at eight years old,

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<v Speaker 2>he performed the sex act on an neighborhood boy for

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<v Speaker 2>a pocket full of pennies. And this was just an

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<v Speaker 2>incredible disturbing background in his youth. He quit school in

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<v Speaker 2>grade nine for hitting a student and knocking down the principal.

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<v Speaker 2>And you write that he always said his mom was

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<v Speaker 2>domineering and treated him like the little girl she always wanted.

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<v Speaker 2>His father died at fourteen. At seventeen and listed in

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<v Speaker 2>the army. What happened one year later while he was

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<v Speaker 2>in the.

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<v Speaker 5>Army, Well, he was molesting little boys, and he was

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<v Speaker 5>court martialed in the state of Missouri. He was sentenced

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<v Speaker 5>to ten years and sent to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

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<v Speaker 2>A military psychiatrist tested Crumwell. What did they find. What

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<v Speaker 2>did they write in their reports about Crumbell?

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<v Speaker 5>They said that he had the emotional maturity of an

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<v Speaker 5>eight year old.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, go ahead, I apologize. You say his mother died

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<v Speaker 2>when he was in prison and he was released after

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<v Speaker 2>four years only and then you write about a partner

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<v Speaker 2>named Steve Scheimer. What did the partnership, what did they do,

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<v Speaker 2>where did they go? And what happened in February sixty

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<v Speaker 2>seven with the pair?

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, there was a little boy, a fourth grader, who

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<v Speaker 5>was riding his bicycle to his best friend's home, but

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<v Speaker 5>he never arrived there. The neighbors all got together and

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<v Speaker 5>looked for him and called and got the police involved.

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<v Speaker 5>Shortly after midnight, they found his body in a ditch

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<v Speaker 5>about two hundred yards from his home, and he had

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<v Speaker 5>been strangled with the belt around his neck.

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<v Speaker 2>And so what happened as a result of that investigation?

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<v Speaker 2>Of course police are are are are investigating what happens.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, let's see. Huh they left the area, Crumwell and

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<v Speaker 5>Shimer they moved to Wisconsin. So they continued their killings

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<v Speaker 5>in Wisconsin.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm Uh.

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<v Speaker 5>They first killed a fourteen year old boy who was

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<v Speaker 5>hitchhiking home from football practice in a wealthy Milwaukee subdivision.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh.

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<v Speaker 5>Crumwell picked him up and they stopped for ice cream

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<v Speaker 5>and uh he asked. Crumbell asked the boy if he

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<v Speaker 5>wanted to go on a delivery with him. Uh. The

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<v Speaker 5>boy agreed. In a short time later, Crumbell stopped the

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<v Speaker 5>truck and told Steve that he wanted to show him

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<v Speaker 5>a trick. He told him to hold his hands out

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<v Speaker 5>in front of him, and then he tied him together.

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<v Speaker 5>He told the boy to try to get out of it,

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<v Speaker 5>and Steve the boy told him that he couldn't. Crumwell

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00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:16.599
<v Speaker 5>asking to continue, but he still could not. He asked

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00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.759
<v Speaker 5>Crumbel to untie him. Crumble then made the boy lay

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00:22:20.839 --> 00:22:25.000
<v Speaker 5>down on his back and then blested him. They got

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00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:31.039
<v Speaker 5>back in the truck and grub away. He stopped later

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<v Speaker 5>on and molested the boy again, and he found the

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<v Speaker 5>tree limb and he beat the boy very severely and

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<v Speaker 5>tossed him into a ravine. The boy did survive and

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<v Speaker 5>the next day he was found by neighbors. Crumwell was

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<v Speaker 5>arrested for that a couple of days later.

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<v Speaker 2>You write that when Steve Scheimer was interviewed, he told

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<v Speaker 2>them that Crummell had confessed the killing Frank klaus In

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<v Speaker 2>the fourth grader in Arizona. So when Prima County sheriff

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<v Speaker 2>detective got to Wisconsin, what happened with this Steve Scheimer's confession.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, crumber denied the confession and the murder. The Arizona

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<v Speaker 5>County or the Arizona sheriff detectives went back home. Conson

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<v Speaker 5>sentenced him to thirty years for the salt on the

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<v Speaker 5>on Steve the young boy.

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<v Speaker 2>Right you right though, that Arizona Sheriff's department thought this

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<v Speaker 2>guy was going to get thirty years for the Steve

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00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Scallon assault. You know, it's close to murders you could

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00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:11.880
<v Speaker 2>possibly get and the sexual assault. But Crumbell was out

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00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:14.759
<v Speaker 2>in five years. You write and then now living in

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<v Speaker 2>southern California. However, you write that there's a law man

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00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:24.720
<v Speaker 2>that enters the story named Bob Loo or Bob Low,

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00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:30.559
<v Speaker 2>and you take it from there. He takes his job

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<v Speaker 2>very seriously. The first job, first day on homicide, you

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<v Speaker 2>write that he says, I want that Frank class in

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<v Speaker 2>case of the fourth grader, doesn't he Yes, he said

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<v Speaker 2>he wanted to.

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<v Speaker 5>Put the guy away. He walked into the sergeant's office

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<v Speaker 5>and told him I want the case. It's solvable and

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00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:58.759
<v Speaker 5>Krumwel is dangerous and he got the job of going

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<v Speaker 5>after Crumwell.

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00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:01.599
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

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<v Speaker 5>He read the the file on it, which was several

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<v Speaker 5>inches thick, and he knew the closs and caseh you know,

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00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:13.000
<v Speaker 5>from beginning to end.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh.

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<v Speaker 5>He did manage to find Crumwell, who was then living

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<v Speaker 5>in Lido Beach, California, with a new Newport Beach psychiatrist.

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00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:29.799
<v Speaker 5>But he Crumbell was calling himself Jimmy Savage at that time.

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00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:38.960
<v Speaker 2>But you write that the Low he found Scheimer at

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<v Speaker 2>first in Texas and instead of he he knew where

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00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:48.400
<v Speaker 2>he knew Crumbel, where where Crumbel was. But his approach

359
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:53.079
<v Speaker 2>was to talk to everybody. Uh, talk to family members,

360
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:57.519
<v Speaker 2>old friends, other victims, and psychologists. He read all the reports.

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<v Speaker 2>He spent hundreds of our weekends and nights building the case.

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<v Speaker 2>You write by nineteen eighty two, tell us what happens

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<v Speaker 2>in May of eighty two.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, May of eighty two.

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<v Speaker 2>He is taken to Arizona. Yeah, he was taken for

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<v Speaker 2>a preliminary. But at the preliminary you write, Steve Scheimer,

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<v Speaker 2>what happens regarding his statements to police?

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, he recanted his statements to the police about Crumbell's

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00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:41.039
<v Speaker 5>confession and said he couldn't remember. The case was dismissed

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00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:43.480
<v Speaker 5>and the law was crushed, but determined to see that

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<v Speaker 5>Crumbell pay for Frank Klausen's murder. So Crumwell at that

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00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:56.319
<v Speaker 5>point returned to California and went to a party in Coosa, Mesa,

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<v Speaker 5>wearing a Martian costume with silver glitter. All through the

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<v Speaker 5>evening he was making passes to one at the men

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<v Speaker 5>of the party, but the guy ignored him. The host

376
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:13.440
<v Speaker 5>went to check on his son and there was Crumbell

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<v Speaker 5>neil anthe boy's bedside, with black he was wearing shrouding him.

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00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:23.640
<v Speaker 5>The boy's father had tacked Crumwell. The others at the

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00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:28.839
<v Speaker 5>party joined in and beat him severely while he was

380
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:35.200
<v Speaker 5>awaiting the molus test molestation charge in Coast to Mesa.

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00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:39.599
<v Speaker 5>There was a change in case law in Arizona that

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<v Speaker 5>allowed Scheimer's former statements about Crumbell's confession into the into

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00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:49.680
<v Speaker 5>the trial even if Scheimer would not cooperate. But Crumbell

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00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:52.200
<v Speaker 5>was acquitted of the charges in Costa Mesa.

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00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:55.480
<v Speaker 2>Incredible.

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00:27:55.759 --> 00:28:00.599
<v Speaker 5>In February of eighty three, l'al got an arret guest warrant,

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00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:05.279
<v Speaker 5>and Crumwell was on his way back to Arizona. On

388
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:09.599
<v Speaker 5>November the fifteenth of eighty three, he was found guilty

389
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:14.200
<v Speaker 5>of Frank Clausan's murder and was sentenced to life, but

390
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:21.039
<v Speaker 5>a year later that was overturned. His new attorneys convinced

391
00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:23.440
<v Speaker 5>the judge at their client had received a raw deal

392
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:27.920
<v Speaker 5>when his original attorney failed to adequately represent him and

393
00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:31.519
<v Speaker 5>failed to cross examine key witnesses.

394
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:41.480
<v Speaker 2>So the second trial had its problems. You write again, incredibly,

395
00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:46.640
<v Speaker 2>what else happens at this second trial in terms of problems?

396
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:47.799
<v Speaker 2>What's missing?

397
00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:52.359
<v Speaker 5>Okay? They lost footprints and a handprint that had been

398
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:57.039
<v Speaker 5>taken at the crime scene, a key witness had died,

399
00:28:58.519 --> 00:29:02.839
<v Speaker 5>Scheimer still wasn't operating, and a hare that had turned

400
00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:07.359
<v Speaker 5>up on the clothes of Frank Glasson that on the

401
00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:13.119
<v Speaker 5>clothes that he was wearing that night wasn't Crumbell's. So

402
00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:16.599
<v Speaker 5>the prosecutors felt they didn't have enough evidence for a

403
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:22.720
<v Speaker 5>new trial and let Crumwell plead out to kidnapping. He

404
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:24.359
<v Speaker 5>walked out of prison a year later.

405
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:33.720
<v Speaker 2>So a year later he he walks out of prison.

406
00:29:34.039 --> 00:29:38.079
<v Speaker 2>Is not the end of the story, No, No, he was.

407
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:41.640
<v Speaker 5>He was questioned about the other murder's uh murder of

408
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:48.000
<v Speaker 5>Jack Phillips uh and the murder of Jeffrey Vargo who

409
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:50.640
<v Speaker 5>was only six years old, and the murder of a

410
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:52.759
<v Speaker 5>James Trotter, aged thirteen.

411
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.079
<v Speaker 6>UH.

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00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.279
<v Speaker 5>A jury in Riverside found Crumbell guilty of the order

413
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:06.799
<v Speaker 5>of James Trotter and sentenced him to death, but on

414
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.279
<v Speaker 5>they didn't get to put him to death. On May

415
00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:14.880
<v Speaker 5>the twenty seventh, twenty twelve, he hanged himself in his

416
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:17.920
<v Speaker 5>cell using an extension chord.

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<v Speaker 2>Incredible. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop just

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<v Speaker 2>for a second for some commercial sponsors. Hi, We're back

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00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:44.039
<v Speaker 2>with Susan Hall. The Encyclopedia World Encyclopedia of serial Killers.

420
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:50.079
<v Speaker 2>We were last talking about the incredible case of Crumwell

421
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:54.599
<v Speaker 2>and his reign of terror.

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00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:57.519
<v Speaker 1>It is Ryan here and I have a question for you.

423
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425
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426
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427
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435
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436
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437
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<v Speaker 6>Nobver necessarily worded by law eighty plus terors. The conditions

442
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<v Speaker 6>of the plus website retails.

443
00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about another serial killer that you have feet

444
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:03.759
<v Speaker 2>in this book, actually a duo that's quite familiar with

445
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:10.680
<v Speaker 2>most people. Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker and Roy Lewis Roy Lewis Norris.

446
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:15.759
<v Speaker 2>And these are California serial killers their reign of terror

447
00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:19.680
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen seventy nine. And you write a little bit

448
00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:25.039
<v Speaker 2>about their background. Of Lawrence Bittaker's background, I guess people

449
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:29.200
<v Speaker 2>have been fascinated by the sheer depravity of these people,

450
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:37.839
<v Speaker 2>Bittaker especially, but his background is very very interesting. Tell

451
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:41.000
<v Speaker 2>us a little bit about his background, his IQ and

452
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:45.079
<v Speaker 2>what happened despite that that IQ and that promising future.

453
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:52.440
<v Speaker 5>He was adopted shortly after his birth. It doesn't say

454
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:58.400
<v Speaker 5>who his parents were, but he was adopted by mister

455
00:32:58.440 --> 00:32:59.799
<v Speaker 5>and missus George Bittaker.

456
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:01.559
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

457
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:07.680
<v Speaker 5>Mister Bittaker was into aircraft construction, and they moved quite

458
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:12.279
<v Speaker 5>a lot Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio, and finally in California.

459
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:13.759
<v Speaker 2>UH.

460
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:18.119
<v Speaker 5>They found that UH, Lawrence had an above average IQ

461
00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:20.920
<v Speaker 5>of a hundred and thirty eight, but he dropped out

462
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:25.000
<v Speaker 5>of school when he was seventeen, he'd been arrested several times.

463
00:33:25.480 --> 00:33:30.160
<v Speaker 5>Shortly after f quitting school, been arrested for car theft,

464
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:33.160
<v Speaker 5>leaving the seat in an accent, and resisting arrest. He

465
00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:40.400
<v Speaker 5>was sentenced to the California Youth Authority until he was nineteen. UH.

466
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:43.680
<v Speaker 5>A few days after he was released, he was arrested again,

467
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:47.920
<v Speaker 5>this time by the fdu FBI for violating the Interstate

468
00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:51.559
<v Speaker 5>Motor Vehicle Theft Act and was sentenced to eighteen months,

469
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:54.359
<v Speaker 5>which he served at an Oklahoma prison.

470
00:33:57.400 --> 00:33:57.519
<v Speaker 6>UH.

471
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:02.599
<v Speaker 5>Due hid to his abnormal behavior, he was transferred to

472
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:08.519
<v Speaker 5>excuse me, my tongues tied, Missouri medical facility, but he

473
00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:10.480
<v Speaker 5>was released there after only six months.

474
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:17.400
<v Speaker 2>Now where do you meet? Where does he meet Roy Norris?

475
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:23.960
<v Speaker 5>Let's see at the California Men's Colony. It's a prison

476
00:34:24.039 --> 00:34:27.559
<v Speaker 5>in San Luis Obispo, California.

477
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:33.039
<v Speaker 2>Right, and he's released in nineteen seventy eight and goes

478
00:34:33.079 --> 00:34:39.440
<v Speaker 2>to Los Angeles. Yes, so tell us more about this partnership.

479
00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:48.519
<v Speaker 5>Okay, I have a little bit of background on Roy Norris. Yes,

480
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:53.800
<v Speaker 5>he lived in Greeley, Colorado, until he was seventeen, and

481
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:57.840
<v Speaker 5>he dropped out of school and joined the Navy. He

482
00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:03.440
<v Speaker 5>was stationed actually in San Diego, and in nineteen sixty

483
00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:06.880
<v Speaker 5>nine he spent four months in Vietnam but never saw combat,

484
00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:13.480
<v Speaker 5>got into drugs where there was a lot of in Vietnam.

485
00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:23.320
<v Speaker 5>Marijuana was what he really liked, was readily available. He

486
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:27.559
<v Speaker 5>was arrested in November nineteen sixty nine for rape and

487
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:29.119
<v Speaker 5>was sent back to San Diego.

488
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:41.320
<v Speaker 2>You say that he he was sent to ask a

489
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:45.840
<v Speaker 2>Tascadero State Hospital as a sex offender, and he spent

490
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:49.519
<v Speaker 2>five years there, but he was released no longer a danger,

491
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:54.199
<v Speaker 2>he was determined and three months later though he raped

492
00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:57.000
<v Speaker 2>a woman, a twenty seven year old. He was convicted

493
00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:01.239
<v Speaker 2>of forcible rape and sent to the California Men's Colony,

494
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:08.800
<v Speaker 2>where he met Lawrence Barrent's Vittaker. Yeah, and uh, he

495
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:12.000
<v Speaker 2>was released. Bittaker was released in seventy one and lived

496
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:17.719
<v Speaker 2>with his mother in Los Angeles. And Bittaker contacted Norris

497
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:21.800
<v Speaker 2>and what was the plan that they concocted? What was?

498
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:23.559
<v Speaker 2>What was? What did they want to do?

499
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:26.440
<v Speaker 5>And well, okay, they came up with a plan to

500
00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:29.519
<v Speaker 5>rape and kill girls in Los Angeles and the recount

501
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.480
<v Speaker 5>and the surrounding areas.

502
00:36:33.079 --> 00:36:33.199
<v Speaker 6>Uh.

503
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:38.639
<v Speaker 5>Bittaker bought a car cargo van with no windows in it,

504
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:44.119
<v Speaker 5>but it did have a large sliding side door. They

505
00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:49.679
<v Speaker 5>called it the murder mac m ac k mack, and

506
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:52.960
<v Speaker 5>they spent time driving the highways to beaches and taking

507
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:56.480
<v Speaker 5>photos of the girls in their bikinis. They put their

508
00:36:56.800 --> 00:37:00.239
<v Speaker 5>murder plan into action on June the twenty five worth

509
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:04.000
<v Speaker 5>of seventy nine, when they had kidnapped Cindy Schaeffer, a

510
00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:10.480
<v Speaker 5>sixteen year old, near Redondo Beach. They forced Cindy into

511
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:13.719
<v Speaker 5>the van, Duc taped her mouth, bound her feet and legs,

512
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.920
<v Speaker 5>and Bittaker drove them to a fire road in the

513
00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:24.119
<v Speaker 5>San Gabriel Mountains, and when they got out of sight,

514
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:29.039
<v Speaker 5>they both raped Cindy, and then Bittaker wrapped a wire

515
00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:32.559
<v Speaker 5>hanger around her neck and tightened it with vice grip pliers,

516
00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:35.519
<v Speaker 5>strangling her to death. And they left her body in

517
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:37.960
<v Speaker 5>a plastic shower curtain in a nearby canyon.

518
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:45.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, two weeks later, you write, they continued, Who did

519
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:47.039
<v Speaker 2>they pick up and what'd they do?

520
00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:52.679
<v Speaker 5>Okay, they picked up Andrea Hall, an eighteen year old hitchhiker,

521
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:58.519
<v Speaker 5>and Norris was hiding in the back of the van,

522
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:04.480
<v Speaker 5>but she didn't know that he was there. And Bittaker

523
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.719
<v Speaker 5>talked her into getting in and offered her a drink

524
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:10.920
<v Speaker 5>from the cooler in the back, and as she started

525
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:14.119
<v Speaker 5>to get up, of course, Noris grabbed her, taped her

526
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:19.159
<v Speaker 5>mouth shut, and bound her arms and legs, and they

527
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:21.559
<v Speaker 5>raped her several times, each of them.

528
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:28.559
<v Speaker 2>We talk about something particularly cruel with an ice pick.

529
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:29.800
<v Speaker 2>What did he do?

530
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:36.199
<v Speaker 5>He stabbed her in both ears with the ice pick,

531
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.719
<v Speaker 5>and then he strangled her and threw her body over

532
00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:44.280
<v Speaker 5>a cliff. He took polaroid photos of her before he

533
00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:47.079
<v Speaker 5>killed her, though incredible.

534
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:53.519
<v Speaker 2>Then there was Jackie Gilliam fifteen years old and Leah

535
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:59.119
<v Speaker 2>Lamp thirteen years old. What happens when they get them

536
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:06.920
<v Speaker 2>in the van? Okay, Uh, there's a there's a brief moment. Yeah,

537
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:10.920
<v Speaker 2>there's a brief moment when uh, there's a realization and

538
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:12.079
<v Speaker 2>then what happens.

539
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:18.599
<v Speaker 5>The uh Bittaker drove to a suburban tennis court and parked,

540
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:21.960
<v Speaker 5>and the girls became suspicious, and Leah tried to get

541
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:24.679
<v Speaker 5>out the back door, but Norris hit her over the

542
00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:28.199
<v Speaker 5>head with a bat. After a short scuffle, the girls

543
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:31.000
<v Speaker 5>were bound and gagged. They were then taken to a

544
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:33.920
<v Speaker 5>fire road and kept alive for two days while Bittaker

545
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.920
<v Speaker 5>and Norris raped them and tortured them repeatedly with a

546
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:41.559
<v Speaker 5>wire hanger and vicecript pliers. They even made an audio

547
00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:46.960
<v Speaker 5>recording of the rapes. In the torture, Vittaker finally stabbed

548
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:50.760
<v Speaker 5>Gilliam in both ears with the ice pick, but she

549
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:51.519
<v Speaker 5>didn't die.

550
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

551
00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:57.679
<v Speaker 5>Both men took turns strangling her until she died. They

552
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:02.639
<v Speaker 5>then turned to Leah. Bittaker strangled her while Norris hid

553
00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:06.880
<v Speaker 5>her in the head with a sledgehammer several times and

554
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:09.280
<v Speaker 5>dropped the bodies over a cliff.

555
00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:17.360
<v Speaker 2>Wow you Right about September thirtieth, Shirley Sanders tell us

556
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:20.199
<v Speaker 2>about her abduction and what happens to her.

557
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:26.639
<v Speaker 5>Well, they got her by macing her in the face

558
00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:29.679
<v Speaker 5>and forced her into the van. She was raped by

559
00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:34.760
<v Speaker 5>both of them, but she escaped. They put up a

560
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:38.679
<v Speaker 5>photo lineup for her and she identified both Bittaker and Norris,

561
00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:45.400
<v Speaker 5>but they didn't catch them right away because on October

562
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:49.000
<v Speaker 5>thirty first, they both kidnapped girl, a sixteen year old

563
00:40:49.639 --> 00:40:55.480
<v Speaker 5>girl named Vannette Ledford, but instead of heading for the

564
00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:58.920
<v Speaker 5>fire road, they took turns driving while the other one

565
00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:04.239
<v Speaker 5>raped and tortured her and tape recorded her screams. Bittaker

566
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:09.800
<v Speaker 5>eventually strangled her with the wired wire hangar and the fliers,

567
00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:14.039
<v Speaker 5>and they left her body on a lawn in Hermosa Beach.

568
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:21.000
<v Speaker 2>You says quite a stir. You say it caused quite

569
00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:24.280
<v Speaker 2>a stir because only a few days after the arrest

570
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:26.199
<v Speaker 2>of who you write.

571
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:33.719
<v Speaker 5>In the book The Hillside Stranglers, Angela Boona and Kenneth Bianki.

572
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:39.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, incredible, Yeah, you write that Norris and Bittaker were

573
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:45.599
<v Speaker 2>charged with murder, kidnap, rape, sex perversion, and crime criminal conspiracy.

574
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:49.119
<v Speaker 2>What was the outcome at trial? What was the sentence

575
00:41:49.239 --> 00:41:50.440
<v Speaker 2>for Lawrence Bittaker?

576
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:56.519
<v Speaker 5>Okay, Bittaker was convicted of rape, torture, kidnapping, and murder

577
00:41:56.840 --> 00:42:01.320
<v Speaker 5>and he was sentenced to death. He was on death

578
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:04.239
<v Speaker 5>row at San Quentin Prison when he died of natural

579
00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:12.039
<v Speaker 5>causes on December the thirteenth, twenty nineteen. Norris had testified

580
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:15.440
<v Speaker 5>against Bittaker and was spared a death sentence, but he

581
00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:18.679
<v Speaker 5>was senced forty five years to life, with a minimum

582
00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:23.440
<v Speaker 5>of thirty years before he was eligible for parole. He

583
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:30.760
<v Speaker 5>was denied parole in twenty nine and he died in

584
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:33.760
<v Speaker 5>prison on February the twenty fourth, twenty twenty.

585
00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just recently. Incredible. Now there are a lot of

586
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Anderson's in this book. The serial killers I noted were

587
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:56.760
<v Speaker 2>five serial killers Curtis Dean Anderson, Alan Leroy Anderson, Dale R. Anderson,

588
00:42:57.400 --> 00:43:02.119
<v Speaker 2>Joshua Julius Anderson, and Robert Leroy. And can we talk

589
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:05.960
<v Speaker 2>about Dale Anderson for a moment. He was born in

590
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:14.639
<v Speaker 2>Ohio in nineteen fifty one, and he's an ex police jailer,

591
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:16.559
<v Speaker 2>so always I guess it's a guard at a jail.

592
00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:23.239
<v Speaker 2>And it's interesting because the famed FBI serial killer expert

593
00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:27.440
<v Speaker 2>Robert Wrestler weighs in on this. It was asked to

594
00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:32.320
<v Speaker 2>comment on this or did comment on this officially or unofficially,

595
00:43:33.320 --> 00:43:38.679
<v Speaker 2>And this is Saint Claire County, Illinois. Five women tell

596
00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:42.599
<v Speaker 2>us a little bit about this, Dale R. Anderson.

597
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:48.440
<v Speaker 5>Okay, I'm having to refresh my memory just a little bit.

598
00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:50.079
<v Speaker 5>I can't keep all of it in my head.

599
00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:59.079
<v Speaker 2>There was a Audrey Cardinas, an intern was found on

600
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:02.599
<v Speaker 2>the campus of Belleville Township High School in June eighty eight.

601
00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:06.000
<v Speaker 2>And there was another Elizabeth West, who disappeared on her

602
00:44:06.039 --> 00:44:09.320
<v Speaker 2>way home after appearing in a high school play. At

603
00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:16.880
<v Speaker 2>Belleville Township High School as well, and he found that.

604
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:21.000
<v Speaker 2>You say that another victim was ruth Ann Janey, whose

605
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:24.360
<v Speaker 2>body was found in seventy nine near a creek five

606
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:27.400
<v Speaker 2>miles south of where west body was found and had

607
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:33.039
<v Speaker 2>disappeared a year earlier. And then an unidentified woman between

608
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:35.400
<v Speaker 2>the ages of eighteen to twenty three who was strangled

609
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:38.519
<v Speaker 2>and hidden in a cornfield in September eighty six. And

610
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:42.599
<v Speaker 2>another woman named Christina Publish whose body was found in

611
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:46.039
<v Speaker 2>a weak covered ditch in July eighty seven just south

612
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:49.559
<v Speaker 2>of Bellevue. Now what happens is that a person named

613
00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:54.159
<v Speaker 2>Rodney woyd Key, you are right, a mentally ill transient.

614
00:44:54.599 --> 00:45:00.119
<v Speaker 2>What happens with the murder of Audrey Cardinas And as Rodney.

615
00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:07.199
<v Speaker 5>Boydike was convicted of Audrey's murder and sentenced to forty

616
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:10.840
<v Speaker 5>five years even though there was no evidence to time

617
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:15.639
<v Speaker 5>to the murder. Wrestler and other official officials believe that

618
00:45:16.039 --> 00:45:17.559
<v Speaker 5>Boydke is not guilty.

619
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:18.199
<v Speaker 2>So do I.

620
00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:23.280
<v Speaker 5>Oh, not that my opinion counts.

621
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:29.280
<v Speaker 2>But now another person, I'm sorry, go ahead.

622
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:32.920
<v Speaker 5>I was just going to say. Gregory Bowman was convicted

623
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:36.079
<v Speaker 5>of the murders of Elizabeth Weston ruthn Jane and was

624
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:40.360
<v Speaker 5>sentenced to life. He had confessed to the murders after

625
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:45.960
<v Speaker 5>Sergeant Robert Miller tricked him into confessing. The deputy said

626
00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:52.280
<v Speaker 5>that they had a jail house snitch uh tell Boyman

627
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:56.280
<v Speaker 5>Bowman that he would help him escape if he confessed

628
00:45:56.320 --> 00:46:00.639
<v Speaker 5>to the murders. So he confessed, even though there was

629
00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:03.239
<v Speaker 5>no physical evidence to connect him to the murders.

630
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:04.679
<v Speaker 2>Right.

631
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:09.880
<v Speaker 5>The prosecuting attorney said he was unaware of the trickery

632
00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:13.199
<v Speaker 5>by the deputies and if he had known that the

633
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:14.800
<v Speaker 5>case would never have gone to trial.

634
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you say, authorities believe that all of the murders

635
00:46:21.159 --> 00:46:26.559
<v Speaker 2>were committed by the same person, and neither woyde Key

636
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:30.519
<v Speaker 2>nor Bowman were organized enough to have done the murders.

637
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:37.119
<v Speaker 2>And remarkably, Dale Anderson agreed with the authorities that all

638
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:39.079
<v Speaker 2>of the murders were done by the same person.

639
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:42.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, but he said he was not the killer.

640
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:48.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So what does Anderson offer law enforcement?

641
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:52.920
<v Speaker 5>At one point, Okay, he says he can unlock the

642
00:46:53.039 --> 00:47:02.239
<v Speaker 5>mystery of a woman who was murdered thirteen years before,

643
00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:07.639
<v Speaker 5>and stated that he had had her driver's license, but

644
00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:10.159
<v Speaker 5>he refuses to reveal where it's hidden and will not

645
00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:14.199
<v Speaker 5>give authorities the woman's name or address. He says he

646
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.920
<v Speaker 5>knows a lot about the murder because he was he

647
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:20.880
<v Speaker 5>investigated them as a police officer. But as we know,

648
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:24.840
<v Speaker 5>he was never a real police officer. He was a

649
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:29.119
<v Speaker 5>jail police officer. He guarded the jail. He's never been

650
00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:30.159
<v Speaker 5>a police officer.

651
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:35.039
<v Speaker 2>You're right that. Nineteen eighty nine, he continues his life

652
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:40.480
<v Speaker 2>of crime. He's wearing a ball cap and he's posing

653
00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:44.199
<v Speaker 2>as a home buyer from Springfield. And then there's a

654
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:48.280
<v Speaker 2>house near Belville listed for sale by a realtor. What

655
00:47:48.440 --> 00:47:50.679
<v Speaker 2>happens when the woman shows Anderson around the.

656
00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:58.880
<v Speaker 5>House, Well, he stopped in unannounced, and he insisted on

657
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:03.360
<v Speaker 5>seeing the house, and he insisted on seeing the carol space.

658
00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:08.000
<v Speaker 5>So the woman opened the door and leaned in as

659
00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:12.079
<v Speaker 5>Anderson stood over here, and almost immediately a friend of

660
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:15.719
<v Speaker 5>the woman's walked into the kitchen, and Anderson turned and

661
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:16.920
<v Speaker 5>ran out the front door.

662
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:24.039
<v Speaker 2>And so what does the woman or the police do

663
00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:26.039
<v Speaker 2>as a result of this? What happens next?

664
00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:35.840
<v Speaker 5>Well, a week later, wearing a ball cap and carrying

665
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:38.599
<v Speaker 5>a bag, he stopped at another house listed for sale,

666
00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:40.360
<v Speaker 5>but the woman wouldn't let.

667
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:40.559
<v Speaker 2>Him in.

668
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:46.480
<v Speaker 5>Hours later, and still wearing the ball cap and carrying

669
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:50.159
<v Speaker 5>the bag. Prosecutors believed he again posed as a home

670
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:54.280
<v Speaker 5>buyer at the home of Jolaine and John Landman. John

671
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:59.079
<v Speaker 5>wasn't home, but Jolaine allowed Anderson to come in and

672
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:06.519
<v Speaker 5>showed him the house. While in the bedroom, Landman's three

673
00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:09.639
<v Speaker 5>year old son pulled something out of the bag and

674
00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:14.639
<v Speaker 5>struck Jolaine in the head while in the bedroom. No

675
00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:17.480
<v Speaker 5>did son, didn't do it. Anderson did it. I'm sorry.

676
00:49:19.880 --> 00:49:22.239
<v Speaker 5>He pulled something out of the bag in the bedroom

677
00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:24.840
<v Speaker 5>of the three year old and struck Jolaine in the head.

678
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:31.760
<v Speaker 5>Her husband arrived some time later, and he found his

679
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:36.159
<v Speaker 5>wife and son underneath the bed, with a rope tied

680
00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:38.360
<v Speaker 5>around her neck and a pair of scissor stuck in

681
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:43.039
<v Speaker 5>her throat. The back of his wife's and son's heads

682
00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:48.159
<v Speaker 5>has been crushed. The police tried to get in touch

683
00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:51.559
<v Speaker 5>with Anderson, but no one would answer his telephone.

684
00:49:55.599 --> 00:49:57.880
<v Speaker 2>They feared for the lives of his family, you write,

685
00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:01.400
<v Speaker 2>and so finally, after two days, the police forced their

686
00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:04.199
<v Speaker 2>way into his home and they took his children out

687
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:08.079
<v Speaker 2>in their pajamas. Yes, after talking with police for several minutes,

688
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:13.159
<v Speaker 2>Anderson came out. What happened in the search of the house.

689
00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:14.480
<v Speaker 2>What did police find?

690
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:19.679
<v Speaker 5>Okay? Well, Anderson came out cowering behind his wife, using

691
00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:24.559
<v Speaker 5>her as a shield. They found many weapons and hundreds

692
00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:28.519
<v Speaker 5>of newspaper articles and other documents about the Cardenas murder.

693
00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:34.719
<v Speaker 5>Anderson was charged with murdering the landman's He was convicted

694
00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:39.039
<v Speaker 5>on two counts of first degree murder of both Joe

695
00:50:39.079 --> 00:50:41.719
<v Speaker 5>Laine and the three year old son and went sentenced

696
00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:46.480
<v Speaker 5>to life in prison without parole. He's currently at the

697
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:50.199
<v Speaker 5>Minard Correctional Center at Chester, Illinois.

698
00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:56.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is interesting all the Andersons. Again, you don't

699
00:50:56.760 --> 00:51:01.800
<v Speaker 2>have any other names, regardless of whether they're common names,

700
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:04.840
<v Speaker 2>but I guess when you're dealing with Anderson's a little

701
00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:06.840
<v Speaker 2>more common name than some of the serial killers. But

702
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:11.360
<v Speaker 2>how interesting is it that there are five serial killers

703
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:13.880
<v Speaker 2>named Anderson in your line.

704
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:17.559
<v Speaker 5>When we get into the other volumes, there are others

705
00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:22.960
<v Speaker 5>Jackson's and Johnson's. Seems like there was another one. I

706
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:28.880
<v Speaker 5>can't think what it was. One thing that is kind

707
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:35.400
<v Speaker 5>of weird how many people are named John, Wayne or Wayne.

708
00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:42.199
<v Speaker 5>There are there are I think at least four named

709
00:51:42.280 --> 00:51:47.360
<v Speaker 5>John Wayne something, John Wayne Gacy, John Wayne Glover. In fact,

710
00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:55.000
<v Speaker 5>John Wayne Glovery I think is in this book. M hm,

711
00:51:55.440 --> 00:51:57.199
<v Speaker 5>well he's in the second second book.

712
00:51:57.239 --> 00:52:02.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, yes, nother, Yes, you are thinking of that?

713
00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:07.559
<v Speaker 2>Tell us about speaking of speaking ahead? When is the

714
00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:12.079
<v Speaker 2>next edition? The next? Volume two is again? Can you

715
00:52:12.159 --> 00:52:15.960
<v Speaker 2>mention again the letters and what it includes from yes?

716
00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:18.800
<v Speaker 2>And Oh?

717
00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:20.159
<v Speaker 5>I'm sorry, I didn't mean dinner up.

718
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:23.800
<v Speaker 2>No, No, I just wanted to know details of the release.

719
00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:29.480
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, okay. Volume two is E through L and it

720
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:32.199
<v Speaker 5>is to be released on August twenty fourth.

721
00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:41.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, great, Now, in this encyclopedia, you cover bluebirds, blue beards,

722
00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:45.840
<v Speaker 2>pardon me and bluebirds, blue beards? You angels of death,

723
00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:50.960
<v Speaker 2>you talk. There's many headings of beasts. And what I

724
00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:55.559
<v Speaker 2>found interesting too, is because many I think a compilations

725
00:52:55.599 --> 00:53:00.679
<v Speaker 2>shy away from it. Many instances of Satanic influence and

726
00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:07.400
<v Speaker 2>Satanic groups. Some with the that you had were seven

727
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:12.400
<v Speaker 2>or eight accomplices that were eventually convicted in a group

728
00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:14.960
<v Speaker 2>that considered themselves satanic.

729
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:22.679
<v Speaker 5>Right, there were a few groups that did. I don't

730
00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:25.639
<v Speaker 5>know how you get your friends and relatives to kill

731
00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:29.119
<v Speaker 5>I just don't understand it at all. I don't know

732
00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:31.199
<v Speaker 5>if it's mob mentality or what.

733
00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:40.360
<v Speaker 2>The what are the you have? We said you have

734
00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:45.559
<v Speaker 2>five hundred serial killers listed in here, Yes, the vast

735
00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:49.119
<v Speaker 2>majority you talked about. You said that serial killing has

736
00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:54.199
<v Speaker 2>gone is a fairly new term. However, serial killing is

737
00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:59.960
<v Speaker 2>as old as time itself. You have five hundred kill

738
00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:06.519
<v Speaker 2>Where was primarily the most serial killers? Where did they exist?

739
00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:08.599
<v Speaker 2>Where did they live? And kill?

740
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:14.559
<v Speaker 5>In good O, USA? We have many times more than

741
00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:23.480
<v Speaker 5>any other country. England is second in number of serial

742
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:27.000
<v Speaker 5>killers and they're less than one hundred seventy nine six

743
00:54:27.119 --> 00:54:30.760
<v Speaker 5>in my head, but it's less than one hundred. Germany

744
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:33.159
<v Speaker 5>is right up there, Italy is right up there. And

745
00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:37.000
<v Speaker 5>of all places South Africa they have more than their

746
00:54:37.079 --> 00:54:40.360
<v Speaker 5>share of serial killers right.

747
00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:44.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, that can be explained too. We had a guest

748
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:48.559
<v Speaker 2>on and talk about you know, after apartheid was ended,

749
00:54:48.639 --> 00:54:51.599
<v Speaker 2>there was a rash of serial killers and serial murder.

750
00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:58.599
<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, especially especially what was the what was the

751
00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:04.000
<v Speaker 2>most disturbing serial killer case that you covered in this

752
00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:12.079
<v Speaker 2>first edition? A to d oh wow? Why you don't

753
00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:14.159
<v Speaker 2>have to stick it to one? I mean if there

754
00:55:14.199 --> 00:55:14.920
<v Speaker 2>a couple of.

755
00:55:15.079 --> 00:55:22.400
<v Speaker 5>Well, Bittaker and Norris were very disturbing. Yeah, the ones

756
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:25.599
<v Speaker 5>that bother me are the most I do believe are

757
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:29.880
<v Speaker 5>the serial killers who molest and killed children.

758
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:31.360
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm.

759
00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:34.880
<v Speaker 5>I can't imagine anybody doing that.

760
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't have to imagine if it happens.

761
00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:41.639
<v Speaker 5>So oh, I know it does, I know it does.

762
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:49.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. You talk about two of the Bega school girl murders,

763
00:55:49.719 --> 00:55:59.559
<v Speaker 2>for example, Lindsay Juannie Beckett and Leslie Alfred Camillary. Becketts

764
00:55:59.559 --> 00:56:03.079
<v Speaker 2>from New Zealand and then they moved to Australia near Canberra,

765
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:09.920
<v Speaker 2>and there Beckett met Leslie Camillary and they began to

766
00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:16.119
<v Speaker 2>steal cars. And Camialary is interesting write that he had

767
00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:19.360
<v Speaker 2>a juvenile record and detention of one hundred and forty

768
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:24.480
<v Speaker 2>six offenses, so before we started doing anything, he had

769
00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:27.880
<v Speaker 2>a life of crime already set out for him. And

770
00:56:28.039 --> 00:56:31.719
<v Speaker 2>in September ninety seven you write about an abduction in

771
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:37.159
<v Speaker 2>Canberra and held captive by these two men, raped repeatedly.

772
00:56:39.280 --> 00:56:42.199
<v Speaker 2>They were in their twenties, and this person again many

773
00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:45.840
<v Speaker 2>stories in this serial killer book. Incredibly we get the

774
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:52.760
<v Speaker 2>information because a victim remarkably, almost unbelievably escapes and is

775
00:56:52.840 --> 00:56:55.159
<v Speaker 2>able to help identify them.

776
00:56:55.960 --> 00:56:59.079
<v Speaker 5>And we had time, if we had time, I have

777
00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:04.239
<v Speaker 5>a quick story about a stupid serial killer. He was

778
00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:09.880
<v Speaker 5>killing prostitutes. He took this prostitute out to a vacant area,

779
00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:15.840
<v Speaker 5>got stuck in the mud. He had put the prostitute

780
00:57:15.880 --> 00:57:17.800
<v Speaker 5>in the trunk of his car. He opened the trunk,

781
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:20.480
<v Speaker 5>put her behind the field, and he said, I'm going

782
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:23.239
<v Speaker 5>to push you out. Well he did, and of course

783
00:57:23.320 --> 00:57:27.119
<v Speaker 5>she put it in gear and took off. Went to

784
00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:29.400
<v Speaker 5>the police and they went back and arrested him.

785
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:35.880
<v Speaker 2>Was it just one kill? What one?

786
00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:40.639
<v Speaker 5>Or was a serial killer? He was the Acre's Home

787
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:43.000
<v Speaker 5>It's in that first book Acres Home Killer.

788
00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:47.239
<v Speaker 2>Right. How many murders and what were the some of

789
00:57:47.280 --> 00:57:50.239
<v Speaker 2>the characteristics of that killer.

790
00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:52.679
<v Speaker 5>I was trying to get it to it real quick.

791
00:57:55.440 --> 00:58:00.239
<v Speaker 5>He murdered six women between the years two thousand in

792
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:06.000
<v Speaker 5>two thousand and eight, so without prostage and took him

793
00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:09.599
<v Speaker 5>out to rural areas and raped them and then murdered them.

794
00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:16.280
<v Speaker 2>So if it weren't for this stupid mistake, he could

795
00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:17.239
<v Speaker 2>have certainly continued.

796
00:58:18.199 --> 00:58:21.639
<v Speaker 5>Oh he would have, yeah, I'm sure. But he was

797
00:58:21.760 --> 00:58:25.039
<v Speaker 5>convicted and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility

798
00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:25.679
<v Speaker 5>of parole.

799
00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Another thing I noticed in this serial killer compilation that

800
00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:36.960
<v Speaker 2>I thought was odd is how many duos, how many

801
00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:41.719
<v Speaker 2>male duos were involved in the most I think the

802
00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:46.000
<v Speaker 2>most heinous of serial murders, if not that. Yes, all

803
00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:48.840
<v Speaker 2>of them are in competition with each other, but it

804
00:58:48.920 --> 00:58:54.320
<v Speaker 2>seemed that together they went to further lengths. Or it's

805
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:59.280
<v Speaker 2>incredible the depravity by the duos in this book. What

806
00:58:59.360 --> 00:58:59.880
<v Speaker 2>do you think of that?

807
00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:02.840
<v Speaker 5>Yes, well, like I said earlier, how do you talk

808
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:08.320
<v Speaker 5>a friend at the murdering somebody with you? I don't

809
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:10.199
<v Speaker 5>understand that mentality.

810
00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:13.559
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, these people are meeting in prison,

811
00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:16.840
<v Speaker 2>and they weren't meeting in prison because they didn't have

812
00:59:17.960 --> 00:59:23.480
<v Speaker 2>violent criminal records to be right, right, So it's not

813
00:59:23.679 --> 00:59:25.960
<v Speaker 2>just like you and I asking a friend. I would

814
00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:31.320
<v Speaker 2>think there are certainly cases where, again foolishly, people go

815
00:59:31.480 --> 00:59:35.039
<v Speaker 2>to people that are they think they can trust, that

816
00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:40.239
<v Speaker 2>they are their friends, but unfortunately their friends cannot fathom

817
00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:43.559
<v Speaker 2>what their friends are now saying to them what they

818
00:59:43.639 --> 00:59:45.920
<v Speaker 2>thought were their friends saying to them, inviting them to

819
00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:51.360
<v Speaker 2>do murders. Some of these killers, the people that they

820
00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:55.800
<v Speaker 2>spoke to, don't you know, don't really recognize at the

821
00:59:55.920 --> 01:00:00.320
<v Speaker 2>time the seriousness of the statements. But later when they're

822
01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:05.000
<v Speaker 2>arrested later when police talk to them later, they realize

823
01:00:05.079 --> 01:00:08.119
<v Speaker 2>what these people were trying to talk them into, and

824
01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:13.079
<v Speaker 2>they go to police, of course, because this killer totally

825
01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:17.760
<v Speaker 2>misunderstood the relationship with their friend and told them something

826
01:00:17.840 --> 01:00:27.599
<v Speaker 2>that they certainly ended up regretting before I let you go.

827
01:00:28.239 --> 01:00:31.280
<v Speaker 2>And it's been fascinating talking to you about the World

828
01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:38.559
<v Speaker 2>Encyclopedia of serial Killers. What else do you think as

829
01:00:38.599 --> 01:00:44.960
<v Speaker 2>a result of this project moving ahead for the other volumes,

830
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:48.000
<v Speaker 2>what do you think will be one of the central

831
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:53.039
<v Speaker 2>themes other than the serial killing? Obviously, but what seems

832
01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:56.800
<v Speaker 2>to be a common pattern among these killers in this

833
01:00:56.960 --> 01:00:57.599
<v Speaker 2>first edition?

834
01:01:01.199 --> 01:01:11.679
<v Speaker 5>Oh jeez, that's a hard one. We you know, they

835
01:01:11.800 --> 01:01:16.440
<v Speaker 5>talk about serial killers having horrible childhoods. Not all of

836
01:01:16.519 --> 01:01:23.639
<v Speaker 5>them did. Some of them had privileged childhood, but yet

837
01:01:23.719 --> 01:01:30.320
<v Speaker 5>they became a serial killer. Jeffrey Dahmer had a good life. Yeah,

838
01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:31.360
<v Speaker 5>look what he did.

839
01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:38.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, don't know.

840
01:01:38.360 --> 01:01:41.840
<v Speaker 5>How you know, you go from normal to being so depraved.

841
01:01:44.119 --> 01:01:47.719
<v Speaker 2>Well, as you write though, too, that a famous FBI profile,

842
01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:51.599
<v Speaker 2>I believe John Douglas said the serial killer is more

843
01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:56.639
<v Speaker 2>made than born, And you include that. I thought it

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01:01:56.719 --> 01:01:57.920
<v Speaker 2>was a very interesting statement.

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01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:00.599
<v Speaker 5>Yes, I did too. I read that years ago and

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01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:05.440
<v Speaker 5>I thought that was very appropriate. But like I said,

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01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:08.480
<v Speaker 5>there are these people who had abnormal childhood, some of

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01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:13.360
<v Speaker 5>them are privileged childhood and they became serial killers. Yes,

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01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:17.559
<v Speaker 5>so they weren't made serial killers, not from their childhood.

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01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:19.079
<v Speaker 6>No.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to thank you very much Susan Hall for

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<v Speaker 2>coming on and talking about the World Encyclopedia of serial Killers.

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01:02:28.039 --> 01:02:30.039
<v Speaker 2>I know this is a this is volume one A

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01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:32.760
<v Speaker 2>to D and this is a Wild Blue Press publication.

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01:02:33.039 --> 01:02:34.960
<v Speaker 2>So for people that might want to take a look

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01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:38.239
<v Speaker 2>at this, is there an Amazon page Wild Blue Press.

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01:02:38.519 --> 01:02:40.159
<v Speaker 2>Where can they go to take a look.

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01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:45.679
<v Speaker 5>And Amazon It is available on Amazon, or they can

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01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:47.679
<v Speaker 5>go to Wild Bluepress dot com.

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01:02:48.079 --> 01:02:53.199
<v Speaker 2>Both places great, and your second edition eed L is

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01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:57.159
<v Speaker 2>out mid August. We certainly will want to have you

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01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:00.639
<v Speaker 2>back and to discuss that at length. Thank you very much,

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01:03:00.920 --> 01:03:04.559
<v Speaker 2>Susan Hall, the World Encyclopedia of Serial Killers, Volume one

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01:03:04.840 --> 01:03:07.320
<v Speaker 2>A to D. Thank you so much. You have a

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<v Speaker 2>great evening, Susan Hall.

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<v Speaker 5>Thank you. Thanks Dan for asking. I enjoyed it.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you. Good night,