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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening. The World Encyclopedia of serial Killers is the
Speaker 2: most comprehensive set of its kind in history of true
Speaker 2: crime publishing. Written in compiling by Susan Hall, the four
Speaker 2: volume set has more than sixteen hundred entries of male
Speaker 2: and female serial killers from around the world. Defined by
Speaker 2: the FBI as a person who murders three or more
Speaker 2: people over a period of time with a hiatus of
Speaker 2: weeks or months between murders. Serial killers have walked among
Speaker 2: us from the dawn of time, as these books will demonstrate.
Speaker 2: While the entries to these volumes will continue to grow,
Speaker 2: The FBI estimates that they are at least fifty serial
Speaker 2: killers operating in the United States at any given time.
Speaker 2: The World Encyclopedia of Serial Killers is as complete as
Speaker 2: possible through the end of two thousand and seventeen. In
Speaker 2: June twenty twenty, the set begins with Volume one, Letters
Speaker 2: A to D. The entries include Ted Bundy, The Candyman,
Speaker 2: Dean Coral, Angel of Death, Killer, Donald Harvey, the ABC Killer,
Speaker 2: and the Bodies in the Barrel Murders, among many others.
Speaker 2: You will find these killers and approximately five hundred others
Speaker 2: in this first book in the series of the World
Speaker 2: Encyclopedia of Serial Killers, Volume one A to D, with
Speaker 2: my special guests, journalist and author Susan Hall. Welcome to
Speaker 2: the program, and thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 2: Susan Hall, thank you for asking.
Speaker 5: I'm pleased to be part of your show.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining me. Let me start
Speaker 2: with how you came to want to write this, compile
Speaker 2: and write this encyclopedia, the World Encyclopedia of Serial Killers.
Speaker 2: How did you come to this project?
Speaker 5: Okay, it started out just as a hobby of mine
Speaker 5: way back in the early nineteen seventies, I heard about
Speaker 5: a killer in Michigan who was killing co eds at
Speaker 5: Eastern Michigan University and the University of Michigan, and a
Speaker 5: book was finally put out called the Michigan Murders. And
Speaker 5: this was a young man named John Norman Collins who
Speaker 5: killed seven co eds up there, and his uncle, who
Speaker 5: was a state highway patrolman, was instrumental in his capture.
Speaker 2: Now, tell us just how you put this together. What
Speaker 2: was your crimetera? Because there are a lot of serial
Speaker 2: killers in here that I have not read about before,
Speaker 2: and I've read various compilations. So tell us the process
Speaker 2: that you went undertook to be able to compile and
Speaker 2: write this encyclopedia.
Speaker 5: Well, in the beginning, Dan, it was just for my
Speaker 5: own information. It started out as the hobby of mine.
Speaker 5: And I realized I had, you know, all of these
Speaker 5: sheets and sheets and sheets of paper because I printed
Speaker 5: it all out that I was keeping in a book,
Speaker 5: and I started compiling it into some sort of a book,
Speaker 5: and I thought, you know what, other people write encyclopedias,
Speaker 5: and they have a hundred fifty or one hundred and
Speaker 5: seventy six, which I have, both of them here on
Speaker 5: my desk, and I thought, I don't know how many
Speaker 5: I've got, but I've got a lot more than that.
Speaker 5: So my husband and I discussed it, and we decided
Speaker 5: that I would put it in book form, and if
Speaker 5: I could get someone to publish it, that was fine.
Speaker 5: Otherwise I had a.
Speaker 2: Nice book for myself, fantastic and tell us about the
Speaker 2: plans for the other volumes that we just alluded to
Speaker 2: in the introduction.
Speaker 5: The volume two E through L is going to be available.
Speaker 5: I believe the date is August. The twenty fourth. Book
Speaker 5: three and four do not have a published date yet,
Speaker 5: but my guest would be October and December.
Speaker 2: Interesting, before we start providing some really dramatic examples of
Speaker 2: some of the serial killers that I had not heard of,
Speaker 2: and you have a fair amount of detail about some
Speaker 2: of these serial killers. Were there any surprises in this
Speaker 2: putting this book together? Even though you have been a
Speaker 2: big fan of serial killers and true crime for many years,
Speaker 2: were there any real dramatic surprises in putting this together?
Speaker 5: Probably the biggest was how many killers there were all
Speaker 5: over the world. I thought it was, you know, more
Speaker 5: or less just a us thing I hadn't heard of.
Speaker 5: Any But as I got to investigating, I found more
Speaker 5: and more and more, you said, Now, I went to libraries,
Speaker 5: I searched the internet, endlessly compiled. There's all kinds of
Speaker 5: lists out there of serial killers. You can get serial
Speaker 5: killers by country, you know, just endless. I had. When
Speaker 5: I was almost finished, so that I could turn the
Speaker 5: book over to the publisher, a new list came out
Speaker 5: with over two hundred new serial killers, all in Russia.
Speaker 5: And I ask and was granted an extension because I
Speaker 5: felt they had to be in the book.
Speaker 2: Certainly. Certainly. Now let's go to some incredible examples. And
Speaker 2: one of the entries in there, writ in the letter
Speaker 2: A and near the beginning of the book, is Wolfgang Abel.
Speaker 2: And you say he was born in nineteen fifty nine
Speaker 2: and born in Dusseldorf, West Germany, and his partner Furland
Speaker 2: Omario Furland. He was born in nineteen sixty and born
Speaker 2: in Padua, Italy. And you say they began their murders
Speaker 2: in August nineteen seventy seven in Italy. Tell us how
Speaker 2: they started, and tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 2: characteristics of their crimes and some of the crimes that
Speaker 2: they committed. In this some of them more serial killing crimes.
Speaker 5: The very first one that I know about, they burned
Speaker 5: alive gypsy who was also a drug addict. Another you know,
Speaker 5: they asked people to death, They stabbed people to death.
Speaker 5: It's just horrific what these killers do to people.
Speaker 2: They crushed the skulls of two priests with a hammer,
Speaker 2: you write in Verona, and they burned a sleeping hitchhiker
Speaker 2: to death. They murdered a homosexual priest in Trento with
Speaker 2: a nail hammered into his head, and then they hammered
Speaker 2: a chisel with a wooden cross on it into his head,
Speaker 2: and you write at each crime scene they left the leaflet.
Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about this leaflet and what
Speaker 2: was it contained.
Speaker 5: Okay, it had the name Ludwig on it over a
Speaker 5: Nazi eagle and a swastika. It had a slogan for
Speaker 5: each murder and the reasons for the killing. They and
Speaker 5: victims were chosen for any reason that Abel and Furland
Speaker 5: could come up with. It was just you know, miscellaneous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the typical victims homosexual prostitutes. And you say what
Speaker 2: they considered sub humans as well?
Speaker 5: Yes, well, like the coward drug addict.
Speaker 2: Yes, How was Abel and Furland caught? What happened? Let
Speaker 2: me think, Well, they were caught.
Speaker 5: They were caught in Yes, with gasoline and a crowd
Speaker 5: and a discotheque. I won't even try to say the name.
Speaker 5: I don't speak French. But that was in nineteen eighty four,
Speaker 5: and they were charged with seven twenty seven counts of murder.
Speaker 5: Between the years nineteen seventy seven and nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 5: They didn't go to trial for almost two years, and
Speaker 5: they were only found guilty of ten murders and were
Speaker 5: sentenced to thirty years in prison, which I understand is
Speaker 5: the maximum they can get in Italy.
Speaker 2: Now you right, though, that they were strangely released on
Speaker 2: bail pending their appeals, So normally there has to be
Speaker 2: some grounds for those appeals before anything like releasing them
Speaker 2: on bail would be considered. What did they do once
Speaker 2: they were released on bail.
Speaker 5: Though, Well, they left the area. Abel went to a
Speaker 5: town called Mestrino, and Ferland traveled to another town which
Speaker 5: he was recaptured in Crete a false name, and they
Speaker 5: were both returned to Italy.
Speaker 2: Now you write, the appeals court sentenced them each to
Speaker 2: twenty seven years in prison incredibly. In November twelve, twenty ten,
Speaker 2: Mury o'furlan was released on probation for good behavior. And
Speaker 2: then you write that Wolfgang Able was freed on November fourth,
Speaker 2: twenty and sixteen. Remarkably.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, I find that remarkable.
Speaker 2: It is remarkable too. I know about Canadian sentencing and
Speaker 2: you see all kinds of cases in these in this book.
Speaker 2: They are all about serial killers, and you have we'll
Speaker 2: talk about it, but there's a couple people that are
Speaker 2: such strong suspects you include them even though they aren't
Speaker 2: officially been convicted of being a serial killer. It was
Speaker 2: interesting how many of these convicted serial killers, multiple convicted
Speaker 2: obviously of multiple murders, were released eventually, even despite life sentences.
Speaker 5: I know, and I don't understand that at all. I
Speaker 5: think when you get life it should mean that I
Speaker 5: do too.
Speaker 2: I certainly. I think it's a slippery slope when you
Speaker 2: start exempting people with a life sentence that doesn't mean
Speaker 2: an actual life sentence, and it is strictly or incredibly
Speaker 2: it's an incredible example when you have serial killers in Europe,
Speaker 2: and I would say potential for Canada as well too,
Speaker 2: and they do have cases of people being released despite
Speaker 2: what you would call a life sentence. So real misnomer,
Speaker 2: this life sentence, but these people released. Let's get back
Speaker 2: to some more of these incredible serial killers that you
Speaker 2: have in this world. In side klopedia of serial killers,
Speaker 2: let's talk about the beasts of Montremtre. And I apologize
Speaker 2: for the mispronunciation. But a person named Theory Paulin who
Speaker 2: was born in Martinique but lived in France, and he
Speaker 2: was homosexual, and he met eventually when he was working
Speaker 2: as a waiter at a transvestite nightclub in Paris. He
Speaker 2: met Jean Thiery Matharin, who was nineteen years old, and
Speaker 2: they became lovers right away. In October nineteen eighty four,
Speaker 2: a woman named Germaine maybe it's a male, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: Germaine petitoat ninety one years old, was assaulted, but they survived,
Speaker 2: but were too traumatized to give police a description. They
Speaker 2: went on to continue with terrorizing elderly people. The next
Speaker 2: victim was eighty three years old, beaten and smothered.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that the same night.
Speaker 2: It was the same night. Incredibly, that was the motive.
Speaker 2: What was their motive for these crimes and what was
Speaker 2: their hall that first night that you report.
Speaker 5: I think that their initial purpose was robbery. Why they
Speaker 5: felt a head they had to kill these old women.
Speaker 5: I haven't you know they're defenseless, m h I you
Speaker 5: know they they beat.
Speaker 2: Them, They beat them, They robbed them.
Speaker 5: You wrote, robbed them, had them smothered with a pillow. Altogether,
Speaker 5: I think they murdered like eight women or eight more women,
Speaker 5: which made ten altogether.
Speaker 2: You're right, they might have started off with robbery as
Speaker 2: a motive, but they seemed to enjoy themselves. Some had
Speaker 2: bags over their heads and one was forced to drink
Speaker 2: drain cleaner. So some sadism actually involved here, and Paulin
Speaker 2: and Mathaman spent their nights dancing and drinking champagne and
Speaker 2: snorting coke, using the victims cash and credit cards. You
Speaker 2: write about a second wave of murders December eighty five
Speaker 2: to June eighty six, eight more elderly women were murdered.
Speaker 2: Police detectives know that it's the same person. They're determined
Speaker 2: as the same person that killed nine in nineteen eighty four. Yes,
Speaker 2: in late eighty six, you say that Paulin attacked a
Speaker 2: coke dealer with a bat but didn't kill him. What
Speaker 2: was the sentence for that attack.
Speaker 5: I'm that coke dealer and you know I let's see,
Speaker 5: he was arrested and served one year in jail.
Speaker 2: Yeah, incredible, he was released. He continued to lavish lifestyle.
Speaker 2: You write, using stolen credit cards. What disease does Paullen discovery?
Speaker 2: He has?
Speaker 5: He has eight he found the AlSi had age.
Speaker 2: So in November, this doesn't deter him from murdering and
Speaker 2: continuing to murder. He murders a seventy nine year old
Speaker 2: woman and then attacks a woman named Berth Philanatri Fhilanatiary
Speaker 2: and she's eighty seven years old, and left her for dead.
Speaker 2: The last victim, you right, is Genevieve Germont, and he
Speaker 2: strangled her two days later. However, you write that birthday
Speaker 2: and I mispronounced with Philanoi. The eighty seven year old
Speaker 2: recovered on the killer's birthday. Tell us what she's able
Speaker 2: to do for police, what she's able to give police.
Speaker 5: She gave them a very good description and a local
Speaker 5: police inspector recognized him from her description as he was
Speaker 5: walking down the street, and he was arrested and admitted
Speaker 5: all of the murders and his relationship with Matherin.
Speaker 2: And as a result, you write that Theory became ill
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty eight because of the effects of AIDS
Speaker 2: and he died in hospital in eighty nine. But Matherin,
Speaker 2: on the other however, was tried and convicted of the
Speaker 2: first nine murders and he was given again we just
Speaker 2: mentioned this. He was given a life sentence plus eighteen
Speaker 2: years without parole. I guess eighteen years without the eligibility parole.
Speaker 2: He was paroled in January two thousand and nine. Again
Speaker 2: clear evidence of why on earth he was able to
Speaker 2: be released.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't understand their thinking. These people cannot be rehabilitated.
Speaker 2: Oh, certainly, certainly. Now we have another case I thought
Speaker 2: was very very interesting as well, and we talked about
Speaker 2: James Lee Crummell from Michigan. This is a child molester
Speaker 2: and child killer and at you right, at eight years old,
Speaker 2: he performed the sex act on an neighborhood boy for
Speaker 2: a pocket full of pennies. And this was just an
Speaker 2: incredible disturbing background in his youth. He quit school in
Speaker 2: grade nine for hitting a student and knocking down the principal.
Speaker 2: And you write that he always said his mom was
Speaker 2: domineering and treated him like the little girl she always wanted.
Speaker 2: His father died at fourteen. At seventeen and listed in
Speaker 2: the army. What happened one year later while he was
Speaker 2: in the.
Speaker 5: Army, Well, he was molesting little boys, and he was
Speaker 5: court martialed in the state of Missouri. He was sentenced
Speaker 5: to ten years and sent to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.
Speaker 2: A military psychiatrist tested Crumwell. What did they find. What
Speaker 2: did they write in their reports about Crumbell?
Speaker 5: They said that he had the emotional maturity of an
Speaker 5: eight year old.
Speaker 2: Yeah, go ahead, I apologize. You say his mother died
Speaker 2: when he was in prison and he was released after
Speaker 2: four years only and then you write about a partner
Speaker 2: named Steve Scheimer. What did the partnership, what did they do,
Speaker 2: where did they go? And what happened in February sixty
Speaker 2: seven with the pair?
Speaker 5: Okay, there was a little boy, a fourth grader, who
Speaker 5: was riding his bicycle to his best friend's home, but
Speaker 5: he never arrived there. The neighbors all got together and
Speaker 5: looked for him and called and got the police involved.
Speaker 5: Shortly after midnight, they found his body in a ditch
Speaker 5: about two hundred yards from his home, and he had
Speaker 5: been strangled with the belt around his neck.
Speaker 2: And so what happened as a result of that investigation?
Speaker 2: Of course police are are are are investigating what happens.
Speaker 5: Well, let's see. Huh they left the area, Crumwell and
Speaker 5: Shimer they moved to Wisconsin. So they continued their killings
Speaker 5: in Wisconsin.
Speaker 2: Mm Uh.
Speaker 5: They first killed a fourteen year old boy who was
Speaker 5: hitchhiking home from football practice in a wealthy Milwaukee subdivision.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: Crumwell picked him up and they stopped for ice cream
Speaker 5: and uh he asked. Crumbell asked the boy if he
Speaker 5: wanted to go on a delivery with him. Uh. The
Speaker 5: boy agreed. In a short time later, Crumbell stopped the
Speaker 5: truck and told Steve that he wanted to show him
Speaker 5: a trick. He told him to hold his hands out
Speaker 5: in front of him, and then he tied him together.
Speaker 5: He told the boy to try to get out of it,
Speaker 5: and Steve the boy told him that he couldn't. Crumwell
Speaker 5: asking to continue, but he still could not. He asked
Speaker 5: Crumbel to untie him. Crumble then made the boy lay
Speaker 5: down on his back and then blested him. They got
Speaker 5: back in the truck and grub away. He stopped later
Speaker 5: on and molested the boy again, and he found the
Speaker 5: tree limb and he beat the boy very severely and
Speaker 5: tossed him into a ravine. The boy did survive and
Speaker 5: the next day he was found by neighbors. Crumwell was
Speaker 5: arrested for that a couple of days later.
Speaker 2: You write that when Steve Scheimer was interviewed, he told
Speaker 2: them that Crummell had confessed the killing Frank klaus In
Speaker 2: the fourth grader in Arizona. So when Prima County sheriff
Speaker 2: detective got to Wisconsin, what happened with this Steve Scheimer's confession.
Speaker 5: Well, crumber denied the confession and the murder. The Arizona
Speaker 5: County or the Arizona sheriff detectives went back home. Conson
Speaker 5: sentenced him to thirty years for the salt on the
Speaker 5: on Steve the young boy.
Speaker 2: Right you right though, that Arizona Sheriff's department thought this
Speaker 2: guy was going to get thirty years for the Steve
Speaker 2: Scallon assault. You know, it's close to murders you could
Speaker 2: possibly get and the sexual assault. But Crumbell was out
Speaker 2: in five years. You write and then now living in
Speaker 2: southern California. However, you write that there's a law man
Speaker 2: that enters the story named Bob Loo or Bob Low,
Speaker 2: and you take it from there. He takes his job
Speaker 2: very seriously. The first job, first day on homicide, you
Speaker 2: write that he says, I want that Frank class in
Speaker 2: case of the fourth grader, doesn't he Yes, he said
Speaker 2: he wanted to.
Speaker 5: Put the guy away. He walked into the sergeant's office
Speaker 5: and told him I want the case. It's solvable and
Speaker 5: Krumwel is dangerous and he got the job of going
Speaker 5: after Crumwell.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: He read the the file on it, which was several
Speaker 5: inches thick, and he knew the closs and caseh you know,
Speaker 5: from beginning to end.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: He did manage to find Crumwell, who was then living
Speaker 5: in Lido Beach, California, with a new Newport Beach psychiatrist.
Speaker 5: But he Crumbell was calling himself Jimmy Savage at that time.
Speaker 2: But you write that the Low he found Scheimer at
Speaker 2: first in Texas and instead of he he knew where
Speaker 2: he knew Crumbel, where where Crumbel was. But his approach
Speaker 2: was to talk to everybody. Uh, talk to family members,
Speaker 2: old friends, other victims, and psychologists. He read all the reports.
Speaker 2: He spent hundreds of our weekends and nights building the case.
Speaker 2: You write by nineteen eighty two, tell us what happens
Speaker 2: in May of eighty two.
Speaker 5: Okay, May of eighty two.
Speaker 2: He is taken to Arizona. Yeah, he was taken for
Speaker 2: a preliminary. But at the preliminary you write, Steve Scheimer,
Speaker 2: what happens regarding his statements to police?
Speaker 5: Okay, he recanted his statements to the police about Crumbell's
Speaker 5: confession and said he couldn't remember. The case was dismissed
Speaker 5: and the law was crushed, but determined to see that
Speaker 5: Crumbell pay for Frank Klausen's murder. So Crumwell at that
Speaker 5: point returned to California and went to a party in Coosa, Mesa,
Speaker 5: wearing a Martian costume with silver glitter. All through the
Speaker 5: evening he was making passes to one at the men
Speaker 5: of the party, but the guy ignored him. The host
Speaker 5: went to check on his son and there was Crumbell
Speaker 5: neil anthe boy's bedside, with black he was wearing shrouding him.
Speaker 5: The boy's father had tacked Crumwell. The others at the
Speaker 5: party joined in and beat him severely while he was
Speaker 5: awaiting the molus test molestation charge in Coast to Mesa.
Speaker 5: There was a change in case law in Arizona that
Speaker 5: allowed Scheimer's former statements about Crumbell's confession into the into
Speaker 5: the trial even if Scheimer would not cooperate. But Crumbell
Speaker 5: was acquitted of the charges in Costa Mesa.
Speaker 2: Incredible.
Speaker 5: In February of eighty three, l'al got an arret guest warrant,
Speaker 5: and Crumwell was on his way back to Arizona. On
Speaker 5: November the fifteenth of eighty three, he was found guilty
Speaker 5: of Frank Clausan's murder and was sentenced to life, but
Speaker 5: a year later that was overturned. His new attorneys convinced
Speaker 5: the judge at their client had received a raw deal
Speaker 5: when his original attorney failed to adequately represent him and
Speaker 5: failed to cross examine key witnesses.
Speaker 2: So the second trial had its problems. You write again, incredibly,
Speaker 2: what else happens at this second trial in terms of problems?
Speaker 2: What's missing?
Speaker 5: Okay? They lost footprints and a handprint that had been
Speaker 5: taken at the crime scene, a key witness had died,
Speaker 5: Scheimer still wasn't operating, and a hare that had turned
Speaker 5: up on the clothes of Frank Glasson that on the
Speaker 5: clothes that he was wearing that night wasn't Crumbell's. So
Speaker 5: the prosecutors felt they didn't have enough evidence for a
Speaker 5: new trial and let Crumwell plead out to kidnapping. He
Speaker 5: walked out of prison a year later.
Speaker 2: So a year later he he walks out of prison.
Speaker 2: Is not the end of the story, No, No, he was.
Speaker 5: He was questioned about the other murder's uh murder of
Speaker 5: Jack Phillips uh and the murder of Jeffrey Vargo who
Speaker 5: was only six years old, and the murder of a
Speaker 5: James Trotter, aged thirteen.
Speaker 6: UH.
Speaker 5: A jury in Riverside found Crumbell guilty of the order
Speaker 5: of James Trotter and sentenced him to death, but on
Speaker 5: they didn't get to put him to death. On May
Speaker 5: the twenty seventh, twenty twelve, he hanged himself in his
Speaker 5: cell using an extension chord.
Speaker 2: Incredible. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop just
Speaker 2: for a second for some commercial sponsors. Hi, We're back
Speaker 2: with Susan Hall. The Encyclopedia World Encyclopedia of serial Killers.
Speaker 2: We were last talking about the incredible case of Crumwell
Speaker 2: and his reign of terror.
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Speaker 2: Let's talk about another serial killer that you have feet
Speaker 2: in this book, actually a duo that's quite familiar with
Speaker 2: most people. Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker and Roy Lewis Roy Lewis Norris.
Speaker 2: And these are California serial killers their reign of terror
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy nine. And you write a little bit
Speaker 2: about their background. Of Lawrence Bittaker's background, I guess people
Speaker 2: have been fascinated by the sheer depravity of these people,
Speaker 2: Bittaker especially, but his background is very very interesting. Tell
Speaker 2: us a little bit about his background, his IQ and
Speaker 2: what happened despite that that IQ and that promising future.
Speaker 5: He was adopted shortly after his birth. It doesn't say
Speaker 5: who his parents were, but he was adopted by mister
Speaker 5: and missus George Bittaker.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: Mister Bittaker was into aircraft construction, and they moved quite
Speaker 5: a lot Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio, and finally in California.
Speaker 2: UH.
Speaker 5: They found that UH, Lawrence had an above average IQ
Speaker 5: of a hundred and thirty eight, but he dropped out
Speaker 5: of school when he was seventeen, he'd been arrested several times.
Speaker 5: Shortly after f quitting school, been arrested for car theft,
Speaker 5: leaving the seat in an accent, and resisting arrest. He
Speaker 5: was sentenced to the California Youth Authority until he was nineteen. UH.
Speaker 5: A few days after he was released, he was arrested again,
Speaker 5: this time by the fdu FBI for violating the Interstate
Speaker 5: Motor Vehicle Theft Act and was sentenced to eighteen months,
Speaker 5: which he served at an Oklahoma prison.
Speaker 6: UH.
Speaker 5: Due hid to his abnormal behavior, he was transferred to
Speaker 5: excuse me, my tongues tied, Missouri medical facility, but he
Speaker 5: was released there after only six months.
Speaker 2: Now where do you meet? Where does he meet Roy Norris?
Speaker 5: Let's see at the California Men's Colony. It's a prison
Speaker 5: in San Luis Obispo, California.
Speaker 2: Right, and he's released in nineteen seventy eight and goes
Speaker 2: to Los Angeles. Yes, so tell us more about this partnership.
Speaker 5: Okay, I have a little bit of background on Roy Norris. Yes,
Speaker 5: he lived in Greeley, Colorado, until he was seventeen, and
Speaker 5: he dropped out of school and joined the Navy. He
Speaker 5: was stationed actually in San Diego, and in nineteen sixty
Speaker 5: nine he spent four months in Vietnam but never saw combat,
Speaker 5: got into drugs where there was a lot of in Vietnam.
Speaker 5: Marijuana was what he really liked, was readily available. He
Speaker 5: was arrested in November nineteen sixty nine for rape and
Speaker 5: was sent back to San Diego.
Speaker 2: You say that he he was sent to ask a
Speaker 2: Tascadero State Hospital as a sex offender, and he spent
Speaker 2: five years there, but he was released no longer a danger,
Speaker 2: he was determined and three months later though he raped
Speaker 2: a woman, a twenty seven year old. He was convicted
Speaker 2: of forcible rape and sent to the California Men's Colony,
Speaker 2: where he met Lawrence Barrent's Vittaker. Yeah, and uh, he
Speaker 2: was released. Bittaker was released in seventy one and lived
Speaker 2: with his mother in Los Angeles. And Bittaker contacted Norris
Speaker 2: and what was the plan that they concocted? What was?
Speaker 2: What was? What did they want to do?
Speaker 5: And well, okay, they came up with a plan to
Speaker 5: rape and kill girls in Los Angeles and the recount
Speaker 5: and the surrounding areas.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 5: Bittaker bought a car cargo van with no windows in it,
Speaker 5: but it did have a large sliding side door. They
Speaker 5: called it the murder mac m ac k mack, and
Speaker 5: they spent time driving the highways to beaches and taking
Speaker 5: photos of the girls in their bikinis. They put their
Speaker 5: murder plan into action on June the twenty five worth
Speaker 5: of seventy nine, when they had kidnapped Cindy Schaeffer, a
Speaker 5: sixteen year old, near Redondo Beach. They forced Cindy into
Speaker 5: the van, Duc taped her mouth, bound her feet and legs,
Speaker 5: and Bittaker drove them to a fire road in the
Speaker 5: San Gabriel Mountains, and when they got out of sight,
Speaker 5: they both raped Cindy, and then Bittaker wrapped a wire
Speaker 5: hanger around her neck and tightened it with vice grip pliers,
Speaker 5: strangling her to death. And they left her body in
Speaker 5: a plastic shower curtain in a nearby canyon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, two weeks later, you write, they continued, Who did
Speaker 2: they pick up and what'd they do?
Speaker 5: Okay, they picked up Andrea Hall, an eighteen year old hitchhiker,
Speaker 5: and Norris was hiding in the back of the van,
Speaker 5: but she didn't know that he was there. And Bittaker
Speaker 5: talked her into getting in and offered her a drink
Speaker 5: from the cooler in the back, and as she started
Speaker 5: to get up, of course, Noris grabbed her, taped her
Speaker 5: mouth shut, and bound her arms and legs, and they
Speaker 5: raped her several times, each of them.
Speaker 2: We talk about something particularly cruel with an ice pick.
Speaker 2: What did he do?
Speaker 5: He stabbed her in both ears with the ice pick,
Speaker 5: and then he strangled her and threw her body over
Speaker 5: a cliff. He took polaroid photos of her before he
Speaker 5: killed her, though incredible.
Speaker 2: Then there was Jackie Gilliam fifteen years old and Leah
Speaker 2: Lamp thirteen years old. What happens when they get them
Speaker 2: in the van? Okay, Uh, there's a there's a brief moment. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's a brief moment when uh, there's a realization and
Speaker 2: then what happens.
Speaker 5: The uh Bittaker drove to a suburban tennis court and parked,
Speaker 5: and the girls became suspicious, and Leah tried to get
Speaker 5: out the back door, but Norris hit her over the
Speaker 5: head with a bat. After a short scuffle, the girls
Speaker 5: were bound and gagged. They were then taken to a
Speaker 5: fire road and kept alive for two days while Bittaker
Speaker 5: and Norris raped them and tortured them repeatedly with a
Speaker 5: wire hanger and vicecript pliers. They even made an audio
Speaker 5: recording of the rapes. In the torture, Vittaker finally stabbed
Speaker 5: Gilliam in both ears with the ice pick, but she
Speaker 5: didn't die.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 5: Both men took turns strangling her until she died. They
Speaker 5: then turned to Leah. Bittaker strangled her while Norris hid
Speaker 5: her in the head with a sledgehammer several times and
Speaker 5: dropped the bodies over a cliff.
Speaker 2: Wow you Right about September thirtieth, Shirley Sanders tell us
Speaker 2: about her abduction and what happens to her.
Speaker 5: Well, they got her by macing her in the face
Speaker 5: and forced her into the van. She was raped by
Speaker 5: both of them, but she escaped. They put up a
Speaker 5: photo lineup for her and she identified both Bittaker and Norris,
Speaker 5: but they didn't catch them right away because on October
Speaker 5: thirty first, they both kidnapped girl, a sixteen year old
Speaker 5: girl named Vannette Ledford, but instead of heading for the
Speaker 5: fire road, they took turns driving while the other one
Speaker 5: raped and tortured her and tape recorded her screams. Bittaker
Speaker 5: eventually strangled her with the wired wire hangar and the fliers,
Speaker 5: and they left her body on a lawn in Hermosa Beach.
Speaker 2: You says quite a stir. You say it caused quite
Speaker 2: a stir because only a few days after the arrest
Speaker 2: of who you write.
Speaker 5: In the book The Hillside Stranglers, Angela Boona and Kenneth Bianki.
Speaker 2: Yeah, incredible, Yeah, you write that Norris and Bittaker were
Speaker 2: charged with murder, kidnap, rape, sex perversion, and crime criminal conspiracy.
Speaker 2: What was the outcome at trial? What was the sentence
Speaker 2: for Lawrence Bittaker?
Speaker 5: Okay, Bittaker was convicted of rape, torture, kidnapping, and murder
Speaker 5: and he was sentenced to death. He was on death
Speaker 5: row at San Quentin Prison when he died of natural
Speaker 5: causes on December the thirteenth, twenty nineteen. Norris had testified
Speaker 5: against Bittaker and was spared a death sentence, but he
Speaker 5: was senced forty five years to life, with a minimum
Speaker 5: of thirty years before he was eligible for parole. He
Speaker 5: was denied parole in twenty nine and he died in
Speaker 5: prison on February the twenty fourth, twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just recently. Incredible. Now there are a lot of
Speaker 2: Anderson's in this book. The serial killers I noted were
Speaker 2: five serial killers Curtis Dean Anderson, Alan Leroy Anderson, Dale R. Anderson,
Speaker 2: Joshua Julius Anderson, and Robert Leroy. And can we talk
Speaker 2: about Dale Anderson for a moment. He was born in
Speaker 2: Ohio in nineteen fifty one, and he's an ex police jailer,
Speaker 2: so always I guess it's a guard at a jail.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because the famed FBI serial killer expert
Speaker 2: Robert Wrestler weighs in on this. It was asked to
Speaker 2: comment on this or did comment on this officially or unofficially,
Speaker 2: And this is Saint Claire County, Illinois. Five women tell
Speaker 2: us a little bit about this, Dale R. Anderson.
Speaker 5: Okay, I'm having to refresh my memory just a little bit.
Speaker 5: I can't keep all of it in my head.
Speaker 2: There was a Audrey Cardinas, an intern was found on
Speaker 2: the campus of Belleville Township High School in June eighty eight.
Speaker 2: And there was another Elizabeth West, who disappeared on her
Speaker 2: way home after appearing in a high school play. At
Speaker 2: Belleville Township High School as well, and he found that.
Speaker 2: You say that another victim was ruth Ann Janey, whose
Speaker 2: body was found in seventy nine near a creek five
Speaker 2: miles south of where west body was found and had
Speaker 2: disappeared a year earlier. And then an unidentified woman between
Speaker 2: the ages of eighteen to twenty three who was strangled
Speaker 2: and hidden in a cornfield in September eighty six. And
Speaker 2: another woman named Christina Publish whose body was found in
Speaker 2: a weak covered ditch in July eighty seven just south
Speaker 2: of Bellevue. Now what happens is that a person named
Speaker 2: Rodney woyd Key, you are right, a mentally ill transient.
Speaker 2: What happens with the murder of Audrey Cardinas And as Rodney.
Speaker 5: Boydike was convicted of Audrey's murder and sentenced to forty
Speaker 5: five years even though there was no evidence to time
Speaker 5: to the murder. Wrestler and other official officials believe that
Speaker 5: Boydke is not guilty.
Speaker 2: So do I.
Speaker 5: Oh, not that my opinion counts.
Speaker 2: But now another person, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 5: I was just going to say. Gregory Bowman was convicted
Speaker 5: of the murders of Elizabeth Weston ruthn Jane and was
Speaker 5: sentenced to life. He had confessed to the murders after
Speaker 5: Sergeant Robert Miller tricked him into confessing. The deputy said
Speaker 5: that they had a jail house snitch uh tell Boyman
Speaker 5: Bowman that he would help him escape if he confessed
Speaker 5: to the murders. So he confessed, even though there was
Speaker 5: no physical evidence to connect him to the murders.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 5: The prosecuting attorney said he was unaware of the trickery
Speaker 5: by the deputies and if he had known that the
Speaker 5: case would never have gone to trial.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you say, authorities believe that all of the murders
Speaker 2: were committed by the same person, and neither woyde Key
Speaker 2: nor Bowman were organized enough to have done the murders.
Speaker 2: And remarkably, Dale Anderson agreed with the authorities that all
Speaker 2: of the murders were done by the same person.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but he said he was not the killer.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So what does Anderson offer law enforcement?
Speaker 5: At one point, Okay, he says he can unlock the
Speaker 5: mystery of a woman who was murdered thirteen years before,
Speaker 5: and stated that he had had her driver's license, but
Speaker 5: he refuses to reveal where it's hidden and will not
Speaker 5: give authorities the woman's name or address. He says he
Speaker 5: knows a lot about the murder because he was he
Speaker 5: investigated them as a police officer. But as we know,
Speaker 5: he was never a real police officer. He was a
Speaker 5: jail police officer. He guarded the jail. He's never been
Speaker 5: a police officer.
Speaker 2: You're right that. Nineteen eighty nine, he continues his life
Speaker 2: of crime. He's wearing a ball cap and he's posing
Speaker 2: as a home buyer from Springfield. And then there's a
Speaker 2: house near Belville listed for sale by a realtor. What
Speaker 2: happens when the woman shows Anderson around the.
Speaker 5: House, Well, he stopped in unannounced, and he insisted on
Speaker 5: seeing the house, and he insisted on seeing the carol space.
Speaker 5: So the woman opened the door and leaned in as
Speaker 5: Anderson stood over here, and almost immediately a friend of
Speaker 5: the woman's walked into the kitchen, and Anderson turned and
Speaker 5: ran out the front door.
Speaker 2: And so what does the woman or the police do
Speaker 2: as a result of this? What happens next?
Speaker 5: Well, a week later, wearing a ball cap and carrying
Speaker 5: a bag, he stopped at another house listed for sale,
Speaker 5: but the woman wouldn't let.
Speaker 2: Him in.
Speaker 5: Hours later, and still wearing the ball cap and carrying
Speaker 5: the bag. Prosecutors believed he again posed as a home
Speaker 5: buyer at the home of Jolaine and John Landman. John
Speaker 5: wasn't home, but Jolaine allowed Anderson to come in and
Speaker 5: showed him the house. While in the bedroom, Landman's three
Speaker 5: year old son pulled something out of the bag and
Speaker 5: struck Jolaine in the head while in the bedroom. No
Speaker 5: did son, didn't do it. Anderson did it. I'm sorry.
Speaker 5: He pulled something out of the bag in the bedroom
Speaker 5: of the three year old and struck Jolaine in the head.
Speaker 5: Her husband arrived some time later, and he found his
Speaker 5: wife and son underneath the bed, with a rope tied
Speaker 5: around her neck and a pair of scissor stuck in
Speaker 5: her throat. The back of his wife's and son's heads
Speaker 5: has been crushed. The police tried to get in touch
Speaker 5: with Anderson, but no one would answer his telephone.
Speaker 2: They feared for the lives of his family, you write,
Speaker 2: and so finally, after two days, the police forced their
Speaker 2: way into his home and they took his children out
Speaker 2: in their pajamas. Yes, after talking with police for several minutes,
Speaker 2: Anderson came out. What happened in the search of the house.
Speaker 2: What did police find?
Speaker 5: Okay? Well, Anderson came out cowering behind his wife, using
Speaker 5: her as a shield. They found many weapons and hundreds
Speaker 5: of newspaper articles and other documents about the Cardenas murder.
Speaker 5: Anderson was charged with murdering the landman's He was convicted
Speaker 5: on two counts of first degree murder of both Joe
Speaker 5: Laine and the three year old son and went sentenced
Speaker 5: to life in prison without parole. He's currently at the
Speaker 5: Minard Correctional Center at Chester, Illinois.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is interesting all the Andersons. Again, you don't
Speaker 2: have any other names, regardless of whether they're common names,
Speaker 2: but I guess when you're dealing with Anderson's a little
Speaker 2: more common name than some of the serial killers. But
Speaker 2: how interesting is it that there are five serial killers
Speaker 2: named Anderson in your line.
Speaker 5: When we get into the other volumes, there are others
Speaker 5: Jackson's and Johnson's. Seems like there was another one. I
Speaker 5: can't think what it was. One thing that is kind
Speaker 5: of weird how many people are named John, Wayne or Wayne.
Speaker 5: There are there are I think at least four named
Speaker 5: John Wayne something, John Wayne Gacy, John Wayne Glover. In fact,
Speaker 5: John Wayne Glovery I think is in this book. M hm,
Speaker 5: well he's in the second second book.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, yes, nother, Yes, you are thinking of that?
Speaker 2: Tell us about speaking of speaking ahead? When is the
Speaker 2: next edition? The next? Volume two is again? Can you
Speaker 2: mention again the letters and what it includes from yes?
Speaker 2: And Oh?
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I didn't mean dinner up.
Speaker 2: No, No, I just wanted to know details of the release.
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay. Volume two is E through L and it
Speaker 5: is to be released on August twenty fourth.
Speaker 2: Okay, great, Now, in this encyclopedia, you cover bluebirds, blue beards,
Speaker 2: pardon me and bluebirds, blue beards? You angels of death,
Speaker 2: you talk. There's many headings of beasts. And what I
Speaker 2: found interesting too, is because many I think a compilations
Speaker 2: shy away from it. Many instances of Satanic influence and
Speaker 2: Satanic groups. Some with the that you had were seven
Speaker 2: or eight accomplices that were eventually convicted in a group
Speaker 2: that considered themselves satanic.
Speaker 5: Right, there were a few groups that did. I don't
Speaker 5: know how you get your friends and relatives to kill
Speaker 5: I just don't understand it at all. I don't know
Speaker 5: if it's mob mentality or what.
Speaker 2: The what are the you have? We said you have
Speaker 2: five hundred serial killers listed in here, Yes, the vast
Speaker 2: majority you talked about. You said that serial killing has
Speaker 2: gone is a fairly new term. However, serial killing is
Speaker 2: as old as time itself. You have five hundred kill
Speaker 2: Where was primarily the most serial killers? Where did they exist?
Speaker 2: Where did they live? And kill?
Speaker 5: In good O, USA? We have many times more than
Speaker 5: any other country. England is second in number of serial
Speaker 5: killers and they're less than one hundred seventy nine six
Speaker 5: in my head, but it's less than one hundred. Germany
Speaker 5: is right up there, Italy is right up there. And
Speaker 5: of all places South Africa they have more than their
Speaker 5: share of serial killers right.
Speaker 2: Well, that can be explained too. We had a guest
Speaker 2: on and talk about you know, after apartheid was ended,
Speaker 2: there was a rash of serial killers and serial murder.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, especially especially what was the what was the
Speaker 2: most disturbing serial killer case that you covered in this
Speaker 2: first edition? A to d oh wow? Why you don't
Speaker 2: have to stick it to one? I mean if there
Speaker 2: a couple of.
Speaker 5: Well, Bittaker and Norris were very disturbing. Yeah, the ones
Speaker 5: that bother me are the most I do believe are
Speaker 5: the serial killers who molest and killed children.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 5: I can't imagine anybody doing that.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't have to imagine if it happens.
Speaker 5: So oh, I know it does, I know it does.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You talk about two of the Bega school girl murders,
Speaker 2: for example, Lindsay Juannie Beckett and Leslie Alfred Camillary. Becketts
Speaker 2: from New Zealand and then they moved to Australia near Canberra,
Speaker 2: and there Beckett met Leslie Camillary and they began to
Speaker 2: steal cars. And Camialary is interesting write that he had
Speaker 2: a juvenile record and detention of one hundred and forty
Speaker 2: six offenses, so before we started doing anything, he had
Speaker 2: a life of crime already set out for him. And
Speaker 2: in September ninety seven you write about an abduction in
Speaker 2: Canberra and held captive by these two men, raped repeatedly.
Speaker 2: They were in their twenties, and this person again many
Speaker 2: stories in this serial killer book. Incredibly we get the
Speaker 2: information because a victim remarkably, almost unbelievably escapes and is
Speaker 2: able to help identify them.
Speaker 5: And we had time, if we had time, I have
Speaker 5: a quick story about a stupid serial killer. He was
Speaker 5: killing prostitutes. He took this prostitute out to a vacant area,
Speaker 5: got stuck in the mud. He had put the prostitute
Speaker 5: in the trunk of his car. He opened the trunk,
Speaker 5: put her behind the field, and he said, I'm going
Speaker 5: to push you out. Well he did, and of course
Speaker 5: she put it in gear and took off. Went to
Speaker 5: the police and they went back and arrested him.
Speaker 2: Was it just one kill? What one?
Speaker 5: Or was a serial killer? He was the Acre's Home
Speaker 5: It's in that first book Acres Home Killer.
Speaker 2: Right. How many murders and what were the some of
Speaker 2: the characteristics of that killer.
Speaker 5: I was trying to get it to it real quick.
Speaker 5: He murdered six women between the years two thousand in
Speaker 5: two thousand and eight, so without prostage and took him
Speaker 5: out to rural areas and raped them and then murdered them.
Speaker 2: So if it weren't for this stupid mistake, he could
Speaker 2: have certainly continued.
Speaker 5: Oh he would have, yeah, I'm sure. But he was
Speaker 5: convicted and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility
Speaker 5: of parole.
Speaker 2: Another thing I noticed in this serial killer compilation that
Speaker 2: I thought was odd is how many duos, how many
Speaker 2: male duos were involved in the most I think the
Speaker 2: most heinous of serial murders, if not that. Yes, all
Speaker 2: of them are in competition with each other, but it
Speaker 2: seemed that together they went to further lengths. Or it's
Speaker 2: incredible the depravity by the duos in this book. What
Speaker 2: do you think of that?
Speaker 5: Yes, well, like I said earlier, how do you talk
Speaker 5: a friend at the murdering somebody with you? I don't
Speaker 5: understand that mentality.
Speaker 2: At the same time, these people are meeting in prison,
Speaker 2: and they weren't meeting in prison because they didn't have
Speaker 2: violent criminal records to be right, right, So it's not
Speaker 2: just like you and I asking a friend. I would
Speaker 2: think there are certainly cases where, again foolishly, people go
Speaker 2: to people that are they think they can trust, that
Speaker 2: they are their friends, but unfortunately their friends cannot fathom
Speaker 2: what their friends are now saying to them what they
Speaker 2: thought were their friends saying to them, inviting them to
Speaker 2: do murders. Some of these killers, the people that they
Speaker 2: spoke to, don't you know, don't really recognize at the
Speaker 2: time the seriousness of the statements. But later when they're
Speaker 2: arrested later when police talk to them later, they realize
Speaker 2: what these people were trying to talk them into, and
Speaker 2: they go to police, of course, because this killer totally
Speaker 2: misunderstood the relationship with their friend and told them something
Speaker 2: that they certainly ended up regretting before I let you go.
Speaker 2: And it's been fascinating talking to you about the World
Speaker 2: Encyclopedia of serial Killers. What else do you think as
Speaker 2: a result of this project moving ahead for the other volumes,
Speaker 2: what do you think will be one of the central
Speaker 2: themes other than the serial killing? Obviously, but what seems
Speaker 2: to be a common pattern among these killers in this
Speaker 2: first edition?
Speaker 5: Oh jeez, that's a hard one. We you know, they
Speaker 5: talk about serial killers having horrible childhoods. Not all of
Speaker 5: them did. Some of them had privileged childhood, but yet
Speaker 5: they became a serial killer. Jeffrey Dahmer had a good life. Yeah,
Speaker 5: look what he did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't know.
Speaker 5: How you know, you go from normal to being so depraved.
Speaker 2: Well, as you write though, too, that a famous FBI profile,
Speaker 2: I believe John Douglas said the serial killer is more
Speaker 2: made than born, And you include that. I thought it
Speaker 2: was a very interesting statement.
Speaker 5: Yes, I did too. I read that years ago and
Speaker 5: I thought that was very appropriate. But like I said,
Speaker 5: there are these people who had abnormal childhood, some of
Speaker 5: them are privileged childhood and they became serial killers. Yes,
Speaker 5: so they weren't made serial killers, not from their childhood.
Speaker 6: No.
Speaker 2: I want to thank you very much Susan Hall for
Speaker 2: coming on and talking about the World Encyclopedia of serial Killers.
Speaker 2: I know this is a this is volume one A
Speaker 2: to D and this is a Wild Blue Press publication.
Speaker 2: So for people that might want to take a look
Speaker 2: at this, is there an Amazon page Wild Blue Press.
Speaker 2: Where can they go to take a look.
Speaker 5: And Amazon It is available on Amazon, or they can
Speaker 5: go to Wild Bluepress dot com.
Speaker 2: Both places great, and your second edition eed L is
Speaker 2: out mid August. We certainly will want to have you
Speaker 2: back and to discuss that at length. Thank you very much,
Speaker 2: Susan Hall, the World Encyclopedia of Serial Killers, Volume one
Speaker 2: A to D. Thank you so much. You have a
Speaker 2: great evening, Susan Hall.
Speaker 5: Thank you. Thanks Dan for asking. I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Good night,