WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:13.800 Special Operations, Cobert Espionage. The Team House with your host 2 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:17.559 Jack Murphy and David Park. 3 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:25.239 Hey, guys, welcome to the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy 4 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:28.600 here with co host David Park. Our guest tonight is 5 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:29.160 j R. 6 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:30.399 Seeger. Jr. 7 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.840 Served as an Army infantry officer and then went on 8 00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:37.200 to have an extensive career in the Central Intelligence Agency, 9 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:40.439 which included leading paramilitary teams, one of the first teams 10 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:44.799 into Afghanistan, amongst many other postings around the world as 11 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:47.520 a chief of station, chief of base, all sorts of 12 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:49.719 interesting things that Jr. Will be able to get to 13 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:52.600 in varying levels of detail as he's allowed. 14 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:55.079 He is also an author. 15 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:58.960 He's an author of the Mike Force series, and he 16 00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:01.600 is the author of a steam punk series. This is 17 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:07.000 a school for the Great Game and I, uh, well, Jr. 18 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:08.680 I've wanted to interview you. I've wanted to have you 19 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:10.959 on the show for a long time. I really appreciate 20 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:11.799 you doing this. 21 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:16.519 Well, it's my pleasure, guys. It was the reason I 22 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:20.359 didn't have any idea. You interviewed a teammate of mine 23 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:23.239 and you looked right in the camera and said, hey, JR. 24 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:24.640 If you're watching I want to. 25 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:25.280 Talk to you. 26 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:30.280 So that's actually why I'm talking to you today. 27 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:34.159 You're talked about what we had Justin on. 28 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:37.120 That's right, absolutely, Yeah, Justin. 29 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:39.840 Sapp we had on a little while back. He was great. 30 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:41.079 We had him in studio. 31 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:44.519 So for folks who are watching, Justin was assigned to 32 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:49.040 Special Forces, but was detached to one of the CIA 33 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:53.879 paramilitary teams in Afghanistan, Alpha Team. The Alpha Team leader 34 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:57.200 was this guy right here, Jr. So that's why I 35 00:01:57.280 --> 00:01:58.680 wanted to have him on the show. 36 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:02.799 They are let's kick it off. I'd like to hear 37 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:04.560 a little bit about your origin story. 38 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:06.239 We asked our guests to tell us a little bit 39 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:08.439 about their upbringing and sort of that path that took 40 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:11.400 them into governmental service, in your case, into the Airborne 41 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:13.840 Infantry then the Central Intelligence Agency. 42 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:20.560 Okay, well it's not terribly exciting. I mean, basically, I 43 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:22.919 grew up in a blue collar family. My dad was 44 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:25.840 a railroad engineer, grandfather was a railroad engineer. 45 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:27.800 You know. 46 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:30.560 There, it was just a blue collar family. I grew 47 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:35.520 up in a little, tiny rural town. It's today it's 48 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:37.280 not quite as rural as it used to be, but 49 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:41.840 it was a rural town outside of Buffalo, and then 50 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:48.240 my folks made it very clear I was going to college. 51 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:51.080 I mean it was just like there there was no 52 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:53.240 I mean, I was either going to go to college 53 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:55.840 or they were going to knife me in my sleep sometime, 54 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:58.759 you know. I mean it was really that that straightforward, 55 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:01.240 and I I was fine with that. I mean I 56 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:05.960 was not a terribly interesting kid. I mean I had school, 57 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:10.439 and I had sports. I played soccer, and I was 58 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:11.039 a wrestler. 59 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:15.879 That was it. So Honestly, if. 60 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:20.159 It hadn't been for the New York State Regions Scholarship, 61 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:22.120 I'm not sure I could have afforded to go to 62 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:26.759 college right after high school. But I did, and I 63 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:32.520 was able to go to a small school college called 64 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:36.680 Eisenhower College. Now, for those of you who might look 65 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:40.479 it up, you won't find it because Eisenhower College folded 66 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:45.319 in the in the late nineties or mid nineties actually, 67 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:50.439 And you know, it was a school that was designed 68 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:57.000 at the request of President Eisenhower to create a cadre 69 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:03.560 of people who were experienced in world events and worlds. 70 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.240 It was called World Studies. And one of the reasons 71 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:10.000 it wasn't terribly popular is because you didn't get you 72 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:12.960 didn't get any electives until you were in your second 73 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:17.079 semestery of your junior year. But I mean, I you know, 74 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:19.439 to give you a feeling for how the school started. 75 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:24.519 Class one in the big lecture hall was on the 76 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:30.040 creation of the Chinese Empire, and then class two was on. 77 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:34.040 Confucianism, and then class three. 78 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:38.959 Was on Chinese literature, and then class four was on 79 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.480 you know, was and and it went across the world. 80 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:48.439 So we learned about not just European history, but Asian history, 81 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:55.879 African history, and African culture, African art, Asian art, Asian culture. 82 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:00.000 So it makes me an, actually a pretty good cocktail. 83 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:04.279 A party guy. I can talk for about a minute 84 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:09.319 about just about anything, uh, you know, And more than 85 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:11.759 once in my career I have looked a guy in 86 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:15.560 the eye had said Majong. Yeah, I know what majong is. 87 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:19.120 I've always wanted to play majoh. And then of course 88 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:21.360 I go home and open up my books and figure 89 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:23.199 out what the hell majong is? 90 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:25.639 Is it a what is it? Is it a sport? 91 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:27.519 Is it a game? Is it a board game? What 92 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:27.839 is it? 93 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:33.079 But anyhow, uh I mentioned and I've spent a little 94 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:39.720 bit of time focusing on that school, because the only 95 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:42.839 reason I ended up in the CIA is because of 96 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:45.319 Eisenhower College, and not the way you think. 97 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:48.560 Anyhow, I went to I went out of college. 98 00:05:48.759 --> 00:05:52.160 I then went to graduate school, where I came to 99 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:55.319 the realization that I was a pretty good student. I 100 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:56.800 was a terrible scholar. 101 00:05:57.759 --> 00:05:58.319 Uh. 102 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:00.720 I learned that lesson when the I had the department 103 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.160 pulled me aside and said, you know, Jef, your grades 104 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:03.800 are really good. 105 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:05.800 You're never getting a degree here. 106 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:09.639 So I mean, you know, you don't have to throw 107 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:12.800 a brick through my window to make me realize I 108 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:17.560 need to go away. So after my master's he got 109 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:19.800 the chairman of the department got me a job as 110 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.279 an archaeologist, and I was an archaeologist for a year 111 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:30.279 in Wyoming. This is nineteen nineteen seventy nine nineteen eighty two. 112 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.879 Things happened the course during that time period, the hostage 113 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:39.079 crisis in Iran and the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan. And 114 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:44.959 I had always been interested in thinking about how I 115 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.000 was going to do service. In fact, while I was 116 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.519 in grad school, I sent a note to an application 117 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:53.279 to the CIA. In the old days, you had to 118 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:55.720 mail it in and I got a letter back that 119 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:56.879 said no, thank you. 120 00:06:57.439 --> 00:06:59.279 So I was like, okay, I guess that. 121 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:03.439 You know, that's so far my career progression is really 122 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:07.279 working well for me, right, everything's everything's doing fine. I 123 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:09.480 keep asking for stuff and people keep saying no. 124 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:11.639 So then. 125 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:15.879 I joined the army and that was our shock. To 126 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:18.800 my wife, she was my girlfriend at the time, she 127 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:20.160 was like, you did what. 128 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:22.000 Yeah. 129 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:25.639 I enlisted in the Army as a private and went 130 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:28.959 to Fort Knox, Kentucky in basic training as a twenty 131 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:33.879 six year old, and then went to a CS and 132 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:38.360 went on to you know, Airborne School, ranger school, all 133 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.839 that stuff, and then did four plus years with the 134 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:47.560 eighty second as an Airborne Infantry officer and then progressively 135 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:53.439 a couple of other staff jobs before I was getting 136 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:59.000 ready to go on to the advanced course. And I 137 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:03.920 guess most of your folks would know that unless you're really, 138 00:08:04.040 --> 00:08:08.079 really good and you're an OCS officer, you're at the 139 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:11.079 bottom of the pile. And I used to think that 140 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:15.839 was just you know, prejudice, but I understand now, having 141 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:20.040 done a long career in the federal government, that they're 142 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:23.839 just amortizing their investment, right costs a lot of money 143 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:27.600 to put an officer through West Point and a lot 144 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:31.920 of money to put them through ROTC. I got commissioned 145 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:34.440 after four and a half months as an E four 146 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:37.720 A specialist, so it didn't cost them very much to 147 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.559 put me into that commission source. So I am trying 148 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:44.240 to figure out what's going to happen to me when 149 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:49.039 I'm working in my office at I was the the 150 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:52.279 S three air in my battalion, which is, you know, 151 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.919 in an airborne battalion, there's got to be an NCO 152 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:58.039 and an officer who designed all the jumps and get 153 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:00.639 the airplanes and get the parachutes all that stuff. And 154 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:03.639 I get a phone call says, hey, Captain Seeger, we 155 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:07.279 understand that you're thinking about, you know, what's going to 156 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:11.440 happen next, and we we'd really like to talk to 157 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:16.960 you about an opportunities in CIA cold call. And I'm thinking, 158 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:21.399 really like, really, this is how you do this, right? 159 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:24.639 So I turned to my partner in crime at the 160 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:28.960 time and E seven that I've done a lot of 161 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:30.799 other kinds of stuff with him, and I said, Jim, 162 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:33.919 here's the deal. They want me to meet this guy 163 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:37.759 at a hotel if if I end up face down 164 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:42.159 on the Cape Fear River tomorrow. I want somebody to 165 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:48.360 know what the hell was going on. So anyhow, that 166 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.840 was just that, that's sort of what happened. I wasn't 167 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:55.080 it was a real deal, and I was puzzled for 168 00:09:55.320 --> 00:10:00.000 years as to how I was approached. Well, it turns out, 169 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:06.120 uh so many years later that classmates of mine at 170 00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:11.960 Eisenhower College were already in the CIA because their parents 171 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:17.039 were in CIA interest. And in those days, that's, you know, 172 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:21.200 not the only way that things could be done, but 173 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:22.320 it was one of the ways that. 174 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:23.200 Things we've done today. 175 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:28.200 Of course, for anybody who is interested, you go online, 176 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:31.519 and like every other part of the federal government, you 177 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:36.759 apply online and the process then goes into a you know, 178 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:44.720 a protected environment. But there you can't you know, refer anybody. 179 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:47.360 What happens is they you go on you know, the 180 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:51.320 applicants go online, which is a good thing because quite honestly, 181 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.120 if you have these referrals, everybody looks ends up looking 182 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:58.480 like the next guy, right, I mean, you know, and 183 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:02.720 we need all kinds of different people in the CIA today. 184 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:07.759 And so anyhow, that was my entrance into the CIA. 185 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:13.480 I worked into a training program which the selection process. 186 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:15.840 I don't know what it is now, but the selection 187 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:21.000 process when I was going through, I started in April 188 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:25.120 of eighty five and I was certified as a case 189 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:32.120 officer in June of eighty six, so it's approximately a 190 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:38.000 year plus of different steps along the way. And then 191 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:42.919 by that time I was married and I had convinced 192 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:47.679 the agency. Actually I walked into a personnel office and said, 193 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:50.480 this is my wife's resume. You can see that she's 194 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:52.279 really the smart one of the two of us. And 195 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:55.039 they looked at the resume and they said, you're absolutely right. 196 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:57.639 We're interested in her because she is much smarter than 197 00:11:57.639 --> 00:11:57.960 you are. 198 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:00.759 Hired her. 199 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:07.039 And then as to onward assignments, basically there were two 200 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:12.200 different outfits that were two different parts geographic divisions. They 201 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:14.879 don't have those things anymore, but they were in the 202 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:18.120 old days. There were geographic divisions and the director of operations. 203 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.000 There are two geographic divisions who were asking me if 204 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:24.399 I was interested, and I basically told them, whoever hires 205 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.679 my wife is. 206 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:30.039 The one that's going to be, you know, on the list. 207 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:33.480 So it turned out that it was near East Division, 208 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.360 and which was actually okay by me because I'd already served. 209 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:41.039 When I was in the Army, I served in the 210 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:46.000 Multinational Force of Service in Egypt. So I thought, that's cool. 211 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:49.279 I mean, I get it. I mean Arabic's tough language, 212 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:52.679 but I can do that. So I get off my 213 00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:57.960 you know, one week leave after this months of training, 214 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.480 and I go in and they said, good news, you've 215 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:07.039 got an onward assignment. Bad news, you're late for language school. 216 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:11.600 And I'm like, okay. Oh and by the way, it's 217 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:17.399 going to be a Dari and I'm like, okay, not 218 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:22.000 having a clue what Darry is not a clue, So 219 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:24.200 I said okay, and they said, well, you know you're late, 220 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:27.200 get down to the you know, State Department, because that's 221 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:28.919 where the Dari language school is. 222 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:29.759 Check. 223 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:34.759 And so what I found out was, of course it's 224 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:40.200 Afghan Persian. And all my peers who were onward going 225 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:42.840 on to onward assignments and they were going to study 226 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:46.600 Chinese and Arabic and Russian. They were like, oh, Jay, 227 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:49.759 you're so screwed. I mean, you were no one is 228 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:51.879 going to care. You know, you're going to finish off 229 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:55.399 a tour someplace and then you're never going to be 230 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:56.840 able to use your language again, You're gonna have to 231 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:59.840 study another one. I was like, well, you know, orders 232 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:03.320 are orders. I mean, I just came out of the army. 233 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:05.480 I know, I don't don't. My hair hadn't even grown 234 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:09.360 out yet, you know, I get it orders or orders, 235 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:12.440 and so of course it. You know, in the long run, 236 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:16.879 Afghan Persian turned out to be a pretty good language 237 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:17.159 to have. 238 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:21.759 Yeah, so what was that first assignment? Then you said 239 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:24.799 you were in the Near East Division. What did that 240 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:26.799 look like for you? In what year was it by 241 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:30.039 that time that you after you finished you graduated your sinning? 242 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.720 Well, okay, so I went to my first assignment in 243 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:37.039 eighty seven because it was a year long language program. 244 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:42.279 And as I told you earlier, I have to just 245 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:45.080 sort of be generic. Sure it was it was in 246 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.039 South Asia. You can do them, you can do the math, 247 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:54.960 and I was. I was assigned instead of a standard 248 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.519 sort of conventional tour. I was assigned because I had 249 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:02.480 the Afghan Persian. And for those of you, for you know, 250 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:06.600 your your listeners who don't remember this time period, the 251 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:10.759 Soviets had occupied Afghanistan and they were fighting the Afghans 252 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:15.519 across the entire country. So I was sent in along 253 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:21.639 with a couple other people to UH to meet with Afghans, 254 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:26.519 Afghan resistance guys. Now, this was not in any way, 255 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:33.159 shape or form associated with the the paramilitary weapons program 256 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:35.679 that we had at the time, and that's you know, 257 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:37.919 it was super secret then. But you know, let's face it, 258 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:42.399 once you start to deliver Stinger missiles into Afghanistan, it's 259 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:43.840 kind of a clue who's in charge. 260 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:48.240 We've had Bass Basil on the show before, who may 261 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:49.799 have mentioned a little bit about that. 262 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:53.879 Yeah, exactly, Well, bas was one of the guys actually, 263 00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:59.679 Baz and Uh there was my very first job, uh 264 00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:03.440 in the agency, before I was in the pipeline, was 265 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:08.320 down in the sub basement in the building with guys 266 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:12.120 like in fact, with baths and a number of other guys. 267 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:14.960 We refer to ourselves as the methane breeders. 268 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:16.600 Because of course, you know, would say it's a heavy 269 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:18.240 gas and it goes down into the basement. 270 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:21.679 Anyhow, So I spent three years. 271 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:27.559 Meeting Afghans night after night after night who had just 272 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:31.679 come out from a war zone and we're willing to 273 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:36.200 talk about what they were doing. And so that's what 274 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:41.159 I did. I debriefed soldiers. Basically, it was a very 275 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:47.679 unconventional sort of environment for me, and that was my 276 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:51.919 first tour. You know, if you no matter how bad 277 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:54.879 your language might be, if you meet guys like six 278 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:57.519 nights a week for three to four hours in a night, 279 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:01.080 pretty quick you get you know, unless you really a 280 00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:04.799 dim you get to you know, you get pretty good 281 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:08.640 at the language. So that's that's sort of where it was. 282 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:15.279 And I was finished my tour. I had a I 283 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:19.720 got into a tiff with any division. It was my fault, 284 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:23.200 uh really quite honestly, because I told him that I 285 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:26.720 would had been working with sad guys and I wanted 286 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:31.119 to go work an sad And they said, you don't 287 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:33.880 seem to understand, young case officer. 288 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.920 We you you're an any guy. You're going to be 289 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.559 an any guy. Okay. Uh? 290 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:45.240 Well, anyhow, Uh, for all of the things that we 291 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:48.839 can say bad about Sada Hussein, the fact that he 292 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:55.079 invaded Kuwait actually made my life much easier in one respect, 293 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.319 which was uh, they had a job for me, which 294 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.640 was a crummy what what I they thought was a 295 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:01.200 crummy job. 296 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:02.240 It was a great job for me. 297 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.440 I was in a desert shield, desert storm in the 298 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:09.359 eastern province of Saudi Arabia. There was no other agency 299 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:13.279 officer there that could work with the Saudis and work 300 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:17.359 with the military. So, uh, that's what I did. For 301 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:21.559 a better part of the year. I was the uh 302 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:24.119 you know, this is a classic sort of story. People say, 303 00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:27.480 how can this possibly be? But it's a classic. It's 304 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:31.400 kind of like the story, Uh, there's a there's an 305 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:34.759 old story about Texas Rangers, and there's a story about 306 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:36.960 in the in the twenties, there was a you know, 307 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:43.559 there was a a riot a in Waco, Texas and 308 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:47.839 it was a one riot, one ranger exactly, you know. 309 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:51.640 And so the idea is is that I was the 310 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:56.279 the agency l and O for eighteenth Airborne Corps, first 311 00:18:56.359 --> 00:19:01.720 Marine Expeditionary Force and UH eight the first tack Fighter Wing. 312 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:07.440 So I kept pretty busy during that time period. It's 313 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:12.680 mostly because of my background. It was mostly associated with 314 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:18.599 what at the time was called force protection but really 315 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:24.680 was counter terrorism counterintelligence stuff. And did that for until 316 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:29.359 I know, returned and then they by that time all. 317 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:30.279 Was forgiven and. 318 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:35.640 Mary's Division said we've got another job for you and 319 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.759 your wife because we're a Tanem couple, which makes life 320 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:41.440 kind of complicated. I had told them they could send 321 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.039 me anywhere in the world so long as there were 322 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:47.759 two jobs. So they said, we got a job for you. 323 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:52.000 And it was a It was actually a very very 324 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:52.599 cool job. 325 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.480 It was in a. 326 00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:59.920 Specialized it would have been called it was a specialized. 327 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.440 This is a long time before these kinds of things 328 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:08.960 happened before, where it was a station going after Near 329 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:17.319 East rogue state proliferators, terrorists and counterintelligence officers. So I 330 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:20.000 did that for four years, working my way up from 331 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:26.599 being a line case officer through to managing a team 332 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:32.039 hunting one of these rogue state well all the rogue 333 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:35.799 state intelligence services basically that we were working after, so 334 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:41.440 both their military and their civilian services. 335 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:43.920 Which was great. 336 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:49.200 It meant being on the road about twenty days a month, 337 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:53.519 so if you can do the math, it means, you know, 338 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:57.119 I was home on weekends and leaving every Monday. 339 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:01.400 And in this was a tandem a tandem tour. 340 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.640 So it was my wife. 341 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:10.640 If you're gonna ask my wife, it is what's what's 342 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:13.640 called the Reports and Requirements officer Now it's called now 343 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:20.160 they're called a CMOS. I guess right, and uh, you know, 344 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:22.720 the only reason to go out and do stuff, of course, 345 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:25.880 is to produce reports. By this time in my career, 346 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:29.480 I'd come to the realization that although every case officer 347 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.880 has to be a both a hunter and a handler, 348 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:38.240 I come every case officer, by their second tour, ought 349 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:42.119 to know which they're better at. And I'm a I'm 350 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.839 a better handler, quite honestly, And you can, I can, 351 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.079 I can basically squeeze intelligence out of just about anybody. 352 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:52.119 And can you tell us sort of you know, in 353 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.359 like case officer vernacular or whatever, what the difference between 354 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:58.559 a hunter and a handler is? 355 00:21:59.400 --> 00:21:59.720 Okay? 356 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:04.480 So so in you know, in the spy world, there 357 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:06.799 are two things that have to be done right. One 358 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:10.240 is produced intelligence, and that's done by people who are handlers. 359 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:14.559 You debrief people, you keep them on board. You make 360 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:20.799 sure that they are are productive, that they're safe, that 361 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:24.519 they understand what they're supposed to do for us, right. 362 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:29.440 But you're always you always need new. 363 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:35.640 Business because you know, guys uh decide somewhere along the 364 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:37.519 way they don't want to do it anymore, or they 365 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:40.640 want to retire, or they want to or they get caught. 366 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.519 So you always have to have new business. As well, 367 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:51.240 so the hunters end up finding and recruiting the new spies. Now, 368 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:58.240 most hunters prefer to just once they once they've recruited 369 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:02.200 a spy, they prefer go and recruit another spy because it's. 370 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:02.960 What they like to do. 371 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:09.000 And then, man, that's not to say that you can't 372 00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:13.000 in the CIA as a case officer, you must be 373 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:17.559 able to do both, right, But you know, pretty quick, 374 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:20.440 like I say, early on, you figure out what you're 375 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:22.799 better at, and I. 376 00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:24.640 Was. 377 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:27.240 I'm not doing it at all anymore, but I was 378 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:34.920 better at producing intelligence, taking the requirements, designing them so 379 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:40.119 that the debriefing makes sense, doing it in language, and 380 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.599 keeping the asset safe because that's our primary director, right, 381 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:50.960 I mean, more than anything else. The CIA is a 382 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:55.480 place where you were expected, more than anything else to 383 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:59.359 keep your asset alive and safe. Teach them how to 384 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.640 be safe, as they don't know. It's not their profession, right, 385 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:05.920 So it's it's our trade craft skills that we use 386 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:06.400 to do that. 387 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:13.440 And then afterwards you had a more conventional tour in 388 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:14.920 a South Asian country. 389 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.400 Yeah, I was, you know, I was a base chief, 390 00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:25.039 running you know, regular espionage operations. Uh, And I mean 391 00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:28.480 it was. It was a good tour. I mean, it 392 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:30.680 was an okay tour I did. I did two years 393 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.839 there and uh, I mean I can't really talk very 394 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:37.960 much about the cases, but I mean basically it was 395 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:43.720 classic spot assessed, developed, recruit, and handle and then manage 396 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:48.160 young case officers who are spotting, assessing, developing, and recruiting. Uh. 397 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:54.000 And it and as as was pretty typical of the time. Uh. 398 00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:56.680 You have to remember that we're talking about now. Now, 399 00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:01.640 we are talking about the post Cold War world. So 400 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:06.759 there's lots of different kinds of people who five years 401 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:10.240 earlier would have been great targets and are now our 402 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:15.160 allies or at least at least our neutrals. And then 403 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.119 but there's always going to be targets out there, and 404 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.160 of course if you and also you're always going to 405 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:27.359 be looking at local targets if you can. It depends 406 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:32.279 on the It all depends on the security environment. And 407 00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:36.920 I was in a pretty rigorous security environment, so we 408 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:39.079 didn't do a lot of that stuff. We did in 409 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:44.079 awful lot of third country national stuff. But you know, 410 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.599 I mean during all of that time there, actually just 411 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:50.599 before the conventional tour, during the other tour, I got 412 00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:54.519 grabbed up and opened up a provisional station. 413 00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:56.079 In the former Soviet Union. Wow. 414 00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:59.599 So that was another one of those classic sort of 415 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:02.839 stories of hey, who are we going to send to 416 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.759 this Oh, we'll just send this guy. Why, well, because 417 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:10.599 he's reliable, but he's also disposable, you know. I mean 418 00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:15.640 it just it is. When I was sent to there 419 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:17.599 was you know, a bunch of teams all going out. Right, 420 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:22.720 There's nineteen ninety two, the USSR had collapsed. All of 421 00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:26.960 these places are opening up, and I'm getting my in 422 00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:31.079 brief and I'm looking around with all the other guys 423 00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:31.680 that are there. 424 00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:35.519 There's nobody who was from Russia. 425 00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:39.880 House like, it's all of my pals who were in 426 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:43.799 like had been in Southeast Asia or Africa or any 427 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.680 or someplace like that. And you know, okay, you know 428 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:54.599 it turns out, of course, Afghan Persian is actually pretty 429 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:58.279 well translates across to the other side of the border. 430 00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:01.480 Not I mean, if I had spoken Russian it would 431 00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:04.279 have been great, but I didn't, But I could speak 432 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:09.480 Afghan Persian, and so you know, Afghan Persian works pretty 433 00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:11.400 well for COGICs. 434 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:12.480 It will. 435 00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:16.319 You can get along with Uzbeks, you can get along 436 00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:21.839 with Turkmen all those those southern Central Asian countries. 437 00:27:23.079 --> 00:27:24.480 Did they also send you Jr. 438 00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:26.559 On a job like that because they figure, oh, this 439 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.680 is an army guy, like he can sleep in the dirt, 440 00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:30.039 like use a rock as a pillow. 441 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:32.119 Like, you know, it's not that big a deal. 442 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:35.680 Well, it's that, I mean, that's true. But it's also 443 00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:39.880 because most of these places, right after the collapse of 444 00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:43.799 the Soviet Union were at civil wars, right, I mean 445 00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:47.640 so so yeah, a lot of the kinds of things 446 00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:50.720 I did there. And it wasn't for very long until 447 00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:54.319 the station was formalized, but you know, as a provisional station, 448 00:27:54.880 --> 00:28:00.599 it was really nineteenth century sort of intelligence. It was like, 449 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.119 gohst buy the land, go out and see every day 450 00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:07.000 you're like, walk out on the street, see who's shooting 451 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.599 at somebody else? Uh, you know, get in a car, 452 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:14.000 figure out where the shooting stops. Give us a better 453 00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:18.240 feeling for what's going on. It really wasn't an espionage tour. 454 00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:22.119 And and you know fair enough, I mean, my my successors, 455 00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:24.960 you know, or the people who opened up the station afterwards, 456 00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:29.400 they you know, they were able to to conduct conventional 457 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.319 espionage that just wasn't what they asked me to do. 458 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:35.359 And uh that was a good thing, because isn't what I. 459 00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:39.160 Do nowt out of curiosity. When you say that, like 460 00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:45.599 in all these former USSR Soviet Union countries that nobody 461 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:47.640 was from rush House or the people were't from rush House. 462 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:50.240 Is that because they were all drunk wondering what had 463 00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:53.119 happened to their career and their life with the Soviet Union. 464 00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.839 No, Actually it was because they were in Moscow, Okay, right, 465 00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:01.000 I mean they were they were doing U in Moscow 466 00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:06.839 or in Saint Petersburg, or in places where the KGB 467 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:09.559 was running away too, you know, I mean there was 468 00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:12.559 there were lots of There were lots of It was. 469 00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:18.880 The collapse of the USSR was a you know, it 470 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.279 was a catastrophe if you were a KGB agent, right, 471 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.759 I mean because even if you were only in the 472 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:30.599 First Chief Directorate, which was the Foreign Intelligence Service, you 473 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:33.240 couldn't say to you like your neighbors, oh I'm with 474 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:35.319 a I was with the KGB, because they're going to 475 00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:38.960 think about the other side of the KGB, which was 476 00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:44.079 the you know, the toutalitarian U terrorizing people stuff. So 477 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.240 there was a lot of work to be done in 478 00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:52.599 those places. It just wasn't going to be in the FSU, 479 00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:56.599 which is fine because turns out, of course, the FSU 480 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:00.279 turns out to have been a fascinating place for or 481 00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:04.160 the for the agency, and for State Department for that matter, 482 00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:07.119 and for the military. I mean, you know, one of 483 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:10.920 the things that if you read like Toby Harden's book, 484 00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:16.119 or if you read Doug Stanton's book about about the 485 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:21.160 operations in Afghanistan, the one of the odas Oda five 486 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:26.519 nine five had just come back from working with the Uzbeks. 487 00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:29.480 So I mean, you know, it turned out to be 488 00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:33.680 a really important It turned out to be a really 489 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:38.680 important thing to build a network of allies during that 490 00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:43.240 time period. I take no credit for that might because 491 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:47.240 they were just the guys who were eventually were in 492 00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:49.640 charge were still shooting at each other when I left, 493 00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:53.440 but but eventually, I mean, you got to start with 494 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:55.720 a footprint someplace, and that's what we did. You know, 495 00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:59.559 a lot of times it's the it's just the footprint, 496 00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.039 that's all you do. And you got to be ready 497 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:07.720 for the fact that it's not always you know, great 498 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:11.440 intelligence operations or great paramilitary operations. 499 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:13.720 Sometimes it's just spade work. 500 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:16.240 Right, and then after that you had a couple of 501 00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:17.599 state side tours. 502 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:21.720 Yeah, yeah, we did well, I mean the state side tours. 503 00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:27.119 I mean, so two things. By that time, I was 504 00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:32.119 relatively senior, so I was managing the teams, not necessarily 505 00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:35.960 a station, but flyaway teams, and we were just using 506 00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:41.319 the US as a start point to go after all 507 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:44.119 kinds of different sorts of targets all over the world. 508 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:47.559 My team wasn't the only one that did that, I mean, 509 00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:50.880 but that's that was the States that in the meantime 510 00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:53.559 while since I was you know, not doing a lot 511 00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:56.680 of that flying away some but not as much because 512 00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:59.359 I had to be home managing and talking to guys, 513 00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:02.640 making sure that they followed all the TDY rules, make 514 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:04.640 sure they don't get caught all that. 515 00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:07.759 So what I did was I. 516 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:13.920 Was responsible for working with the FBI on counter terrorism stuff. 517 00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:18.440 At the time, counter terrorism was this is the late 518 00:32:18.519 --> 00:32:22.480 nineties going into just before well I was. I was 519 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:29.039 in stateside for through nine to eleven. But the the 520 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:34.240 FBI had, you know a challenge because before nine to eleven, 521 00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:41.319 the idea was that the that counter terrorism was something 522 00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:47.559 that was really hard to prove and it was really 523 00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:51.920 hard to build networks the way the FBI is really 524 00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:55.119 good at building networks on other kind of criminal enterprises. 525 00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:55.799 I mean, the FBI. 526 00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:59.400 Don't ever think that if the FBI is after you, 527 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.039 you won't get I mean, I'm just here to tell 528 00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:04.319 you their work is exceptional. 529 00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:06.000 But it was a challenge. 530 00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:09.559 And here I was a guy who had spent basically 531 00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:14.880 from nineteen eighty seven until I arrived in California in 532 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:19.359 nineteen ninety seven, I'd been a guy who had, you know, 533 00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:24.240 worked with on terrorist targets. That's what I did, and 534 00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:27.440 I was building a network of flyaway guys who were 535 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:32.440 doing counter terrorism missions. So I could go over the 536 00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:36.519 FBI and sit down with the FBI senior managers and say, Okay, 537 00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:38.799 here's here's how. 538 00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:39.400 We would do it. 539 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:42.240 I don't have any idea how you can do it, 540 00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:45.559 but at the very least I can tell you what 541 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:50.880 the bad guys are doing out there in their efforts 542 00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:55.519 to come here. So that was, you know, that was 543 00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:59.640 part of my work that I did just before nine 544 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:01.200 eleven jr. 545 00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:04.000 And then could yeah, take I mean, this is a 546 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:07.000 little bit of a segue, but maybe worthwhile we want 547 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.320 to take maybe just a moment to explain to people, 548 00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:12.280 because I think the public has this perception, largely because 549 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:15.760 of the movies, that the CIA has a very robust 550 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:19.880 and intrusive presence domestically in the United States. Could you 551 00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:21.920 explain how that works in real life, I mean, the 552 00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:24.920 realities of the limitations that you have as you know, 553 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:26.719 any sort of state side assignments. 554 00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:30.920 Well, sure, I mean, first of all, there is I mean, like, 555 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:34.280 as I said, the team that I was managing, they 556 00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:36.679 were I mean the only reason they were state side 557 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:39.880 is because we had great airports, right, I mean, that's 558 00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:43.480 that's what we did. We flew out from stateside to 559 00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:46.960 someplace else and that's great. 560 00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:47.639 I mean it was. 561 00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:52.039 I mean, let's face it, as the counter intelligence environment 562 00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:57.519 has become progressively more difficult, it's really hard to. 563 00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:58.280 Do some of the thing. 564 00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:00.280 In fact, it's impossible to do some of the things 565 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:03.039 that I did in Europe back in the early nineties. 566 00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:10.199 Can't do it because of what's called ubiquitous technical surveillance, right, right, 567 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:14.960 that had just that had just started in the end 568 00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.440 of the nineties, but it was already we knew that 569 00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:22.400 our work was going to be limited unless we did 570 00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:27.119 something like start and finish from the USA. 571 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:27.599 Now. 572 00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:33.760 In the meantime, our work with the FBI was exclusively 573 00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:35.960 and I can't speak for what it's like now, but 574 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:40.719 our work for the FBI was exclusively to help them 575 00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:45.519 understand the target set. We weren't allowed to talk to 576 00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:52.360 Americans at all, I mean at all unless The only 577 00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.000 time I ever talked to an American was when I 578 00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:59.599 was with an FBI agent, and we would talk to 579 00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:03.079 an AM He'd show his creds and I'd show my 580 00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:07.599 creds and there was no sneaking around. And that was 581 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:11.960 really rare because quite honestly, the FBI, if they're building 582 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:16.280 a case, they really don't want any complications. They want 583 00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:20.159 two special agents who are trained to do the right thing. 584 00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:21.199 And we're not. 585 00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:23.840 I mean, CIA guys aren't trained to do I mean 586 00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:26.920 we're trained, you know, to steal things and break things. 587 00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:32.480 I mean basically, right, that's our job abroad. And so no, 588 00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:38.519 there is not a robust CIA presence in konis continental 589 00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:43.079 United States. And what it is is maintained in a 590 00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:49.480 structure that is through our FBI partners. The FBI, by 591 00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:51.760 the mid nineties had what they call the Joint Terrorism 592 00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.599 Task Force which would have been in each of their 593 00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:58.679 field offices, So there would have been sheriff's deputies and 594 00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:04.320 police departments and and uh you know members of NCIS 595 00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:09.760 and members of OSI Air Force. Uh intelligence, Uh, well 596 00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:15.079 counterintelligence aren't. And we were just there to to provide 597 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:18.840 a context. If they wanted to talk about something that 598 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:22.679 was going on someplace else, we could use our electronic 599 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:26.880 capability to pull down that data. And the data are 600 00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:30.039 important when you're building the case, no question, But a 601 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:32.480 lot of times, at least in you know, post nine 602 00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:35.039 to eleven or pre nine to eleven, I didn't even 603 00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:40.119 know what the cases were. It was completely out of 604 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:43.119 my h you know, they wouldn't talk about it, and 605 00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:45.760 rightly so, because you know, if you want to put 606 00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:49.639 a guy in to if you want to try a 607 00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.079 guy for some kind of crime, the last thing you 608 00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:56.280 want to do is have in the discovery process some 609 00:37:56.599 --> 00:37:59.599 data that says, oh, yeah, and there was this shmoe 610 00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:00.400 from the the I. 611 00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:04.440 A right, the right, and you're you're living under a 612 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:06.719 cover and an alias and so on. So it's not 613 00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:08.800 like you can take the stand under oath under your 614 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:11.119 real name and offer testimony. 615 00:38:11.480 --> 00:38:15.679 Right, and we're still of course, is that as you 616 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.400 said in the you know, the movie presentation of what 617 00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:24.199 agency officers, what what we're like is a you know. 618 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:25.199 Is terrible. 619 00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:30.119 I mean, it's just absolutely terrible in a criminal you know, 620 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:34.199 in a criminal court. So we just didn't The FBI, 621 00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:37.400 you know, was was more than happy to be to 622 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:40.400 work with us, but work with us in a way 623 00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:45.079 that was consistent with what they needed to accomplish. Now, 624 00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:48.360 I won't you know, I don't want to leave this 625 00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:53.320 subject without saying, and the FBI would help us if 626 00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:58.679 they had a case that went overseas, if they didn't 627 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:02.639 have a you know, an overseas footprint, and they and 628 00:39:02.679 --> 00:39:04.880 they thought that they could help us while we were 629 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:08.800 working abroad. Then absolutely our partners in the FBI did 630 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:12.039 that too, right, So it was a it was a 631 00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:16.400 mutually beneficial partnership. But it wasn't something that my the 632 00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:18.400 guys were working for me were going to spend their 633 00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:24.159 time doing, because they were busy hustling new cases, producing intelligence, 634 00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:25.599 doing all that stuff. 635 00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:30.360 Right now, in terms of like working with the FBI 636 00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:33.679 when it came to overseas counter terrorism, because obviously the 637 00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:36.679 CIA doesn't have any arrest authority and the FBI did 638 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.920 if you know, they can show it, like, was it 639 00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:45.159 was it acceptable for you know, the titles the CIA 640 00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:47.719 worked under for for you guys to run your intelligence 641 00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:50.679 operation and then bring in the CIA or i mean 642 00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:53.199 the FBI, Like, how is that evidence? 643 00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:55.920 How is that like custody of evidence? 644 00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:59.039 And how how when you built your case were you 645 00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:01.280 sharing it with them? Were they allowed to use your 646 00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:03.559 information by US legal standards? 647 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:04.519 No? 648 00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:06.679 The answer, the short answer is no. 649 00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.840 That Actually, let me just say to both of you, 650 00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:13.960 you know it's important for you to know. I'm going 651 00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:18.920 to reveal a secret to you, right, So CIA Case 652 00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:24.159 Officer Class one hour one. The answer to all questions 653 00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:27.599 is it depends. Let's just so you know, right, And 654 00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:30.400 of course that's because we're always working with humans, and 655 00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:35.079 humans change over time. But in the case of the FBI, 656 00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.000 basically what you would be looking at in a case 657 00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:46.079 of overseas, the intelligence network that you build then becomes 658 00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:50.079 something that the that might be shared both with the 659 00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:57.079 FBI and with a local law enforcement edity that would 660 00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:01.000 be partnered with the FBI. So, so what's going on 661 00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:05.880 abroad is not about I mean, I mean and I 662 00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:08.400 was never involved in counternarcotics or any of that kind 663 00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:11.400 of stuff where we you know, where bad guys get 664 00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:14.519 grabbed and brought to the United States. I was involved 665 00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:19.239 in counter terrorism stuff, and what would happen would be 666 00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:23.559 the case would be built. Uh, we'd be producing great 667 00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:28.280 intelligence and then anything that we could share with the FBI, 668 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:31.639 that the share that the FBI could share with the service, 669 00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:34.440 or we could share with the service for that matter, 670 00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:37.440 if the FBI didn't what didn't have a footprint in 671 00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.920 the country that we were in, then we would because 672 00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:41.440 at the end. 673 00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:45.280 Of the day, uh, you know, I mean there's. 674 00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:53.840 The motto of the counter Terrorism Center, right, preempt, disrupt, defeat. 675 00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:59.239 So if you can disrupt the counter a terrorist network 676 00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:02.800 in a third country long before they are any threat 677 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:02.960 in the. 678 00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:06.199 United States, absolutely you do that. Right. 679 00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:09.719 And if that means bringing in a liaison service, if 680 00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:13.239 it means partnering between a liaison service and the FBI 681 00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:20.400 and a CIA entity, good great. Actually, so I hope 682 00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.599 that sort of answers That means it's complicated, right, I mean, 683 00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:27.079 it is complicated, and every case is different, That's why 684 00:42:27.079 --> 00:42:31.360 it depends. But the vast majority of the stuff that 685 00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:35.320 we were doing on counter terrors some cases was producing 686 00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:41.880 the intelligence that then could be passed to a liaison 687 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:46.280 service either directly with you know, because I was to 688 00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:47.840 give you a feeling for this, I was declared to 689 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.920 like I think my last count was twenty two different 690 00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:54.800 liaison services. So so you know, if you could pass 691 00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:59.679 the intelligence, you would. If it made more sense to 692 00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:02.599 pass the intelligence through the FBI, and the FBI was there, 693 00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:06.440 you would. I mean, it's it's all you know, it's 694 00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:09.159 one team, one fight in that sense, there's there's no 695 00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:10.719 real downside to that. 696 00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:15.119 Yeah, let's get into the run up into nine to 697 00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:18.760 eleven jr. Because you're already working counter terrorism, making these 698 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:22.440 trips overseas kind of like where were you at around 699 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:23.519 that period of nine to eleven? 700 00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:24.719 Where was your head at? What? 701 00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:24.599 What? 702 00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:27.719 What were the cases you were working? Was being laden 703 00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:29.639 in al Qaeda on your mind at that time? 704 00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:32.079 What? What was kind of your world at that point? 705 00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:33.440 Yeah? 706 00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:36.760 Well okay, so just prior to nine to eleven, I 707 00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:40.760 had I had made a couple of trips out to 708 00:43:41.079 --> 00:43:48.039 Uzbekistan uh for something I mean it was associated with 709 00:43:48.280 --> 00:43:50.519 but not focused on us. 710 00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:52.679 Have been laden, right, U? Some have been laden? 711 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:58.840 However, had become a for for counter terrorism center. Some 712 00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:02.159 have been lauden had been you know, like Target one. 713 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:08.920 Everybody knew that it was. It was absolutely part of 714 00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:13.039 our mission set. Now, a lot of what I was 715 00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:17.360 doing wasn't necessarily it was associated. We used to call it, right, 716 00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:25.039 it was Islamic extremism, and you know it and we 717 00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:28.599 you know, we knew it was al Qaeda, but a 718 00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:32.320 lot of the al Qaeda network wasn't in fact calling 719 00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:34.760 itself al Kaeda at the time. I mean, ben Laden 720 00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:39.800 had this headquarters in Kandahar. They had had training camps 721 00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:43.360 in other parts of Afghanistan. We were certainly doing what 722 00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:47.800 we could understand that and work against him. A lot 723 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:50.920 of the kinds of things that I was doing in 724 00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:56.840 in tash Kentworth was associated with rebuilding networks against Afghans 725 00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:01.639 or with with Afghans, so the Afghan resistance, and people 726 00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:05.239 don't I mean, people often ask me like, how in 727 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:09.119 the world could you put you know, nine to eleven happens. 728 00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:13.639 You know, two weeks later we've got a team inside 729 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:17.719 the ponds here and then you know, another week later 730 00:45:18.119 --> 00:45:21.480 you're flying out to tash Kent, and then two weeks 731 00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:24.800 after that the Team Alpha Team goes in, how can 732 00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:28.840 that possibly be? And the answer is, because we were 733 00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:35.000 running cases all the way through the nineties. It wasn't 734 00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:39.280 that we expected nine to eleven. It was what the 735 00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:43.880 CIA does is is you build a case, you run 736 00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:47.079 a case, you keep a case running. You get those 737 00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:51.679 folks used to seeing you with the understanding that sometimes 738 00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:56.360 the intelligence is good, sometimes it's bad, but generally speaking, 739 00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:06.519 it's that sustained relationship over the years. I mean, small joke. 740 00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:12.599 I gave this presentation to a bunch I've done this 741 00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:16.760 with a bunch of Special Forces groups, and I was 742 00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:20.639 given the presentation about this and I finished, and I'm 743 00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:23.280 walking out to get a cup of coffee, and the 744 00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:26.039 guys are walking out to get away from me, and 745 00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:29.480 I hear one of the younger Special Forces guys go like, 746 00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:33.400 who is that guy anyhow? And one of the older 747 00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:37.000 guys goes, man, you don't know that cat Man Jr. 748 00:46:37.159 --> 00:46:43.760 Is the forest gump of Afghanistan. Now I'm hoping, I'm 749 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:46.639 really hoping. In the largest scheme of things. That was 750 00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:50.039 because I had been to a lot of different kinds 751 00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:53.960 of stuff. Right I met with Masoud in the nineties. 752 00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:56.760 I had worked with a bunch of different guys in 753 00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:01.880 the resistance in the eighties, and so the idea was that, 754 00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:08.239 you know, I just maybe it was because I was stubborn, 755 00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:12.920 Maybe it was because I like working with Afghans, maybe 756 00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:15.360 it's because I had the language. But I kept doing it, 757 00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:17.760 and I wasn't the only one. I mean, by no 758 00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:21.480 means was I the only guy doing the same thing 759 00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:24.519 who were just stubborn and kept working the Afghans whether 760 00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:29.440 the United States government cared or not. And now the 761 00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:32.880 CIA cared, and our intelligence that we were producing at 762 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:36.039 the time in the nineties, you know, it was not 763 00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:39.800 it wasn't going to end up in the Presidential Daily Brief. 764 00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:43.119 It just wasn't. What it was doing is it was 765 00:47:43.159 --> 00:47:53.239 building that understanding of the complex web inside Afghanistan. So, yeah, 766 00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:55.440 we've been we'd focused on it for a long time. 767 00:47:56.199 --> 00:48:00.599 Did you during that time, especially after like the Russians 768 00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:03.960 left Afghanistan, when there was a period where was there 769 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:07.760 a time when you had to sell Afghanistan to management 770 00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:10.920 and say, we still need a presence there, we still 771 00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:11.800 need to know what's going on. 772 00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:16.920 Well, what you do you don't, I mean, the answer 773 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:19.360 is sort of kind of right, I mean, what you 774 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:25.440 do is you sort out if the if the seniors 775 00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:28.280 aren't interested in it. Used to be a joke in 776 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:31.360 the State Department. Actually one of the jokes this is 777 00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:34.400 in the in the seventies, and the joke was if 778 00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:37.519 you wanted to joke about somebody doing something that was 779 00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:41.639 absolutely of no interest to anybody. The argument that the 780 00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:45.639 line was, so, what's the political situation in Afghanistan? I mean, 781 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:48.599 that was literally what State Department officers said when they 782 00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:51.199 were when they were trying to tell one of their 783 00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:57.199 their junior officers, what you're talking about? Nobody cares about, right, 784 00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:02.280 But the good news about Afghanistan, well, it was a 785 00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:06.400 terrible news. But from a standpoint of the United States government, 786 00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:16.440 there was a very quick transition from you know, the 787 00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:21.000 the problems associated with a civil war, right, because that's 788 00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:23.639 what happened when the Soviets left, it was a civil war. 789 00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:28.760 But pretty quickly after that people were interested in Afghanistan 790 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:32.400 because it was the center of narco trafficking and then 791 00:49:32.599 --> 00:49:35.960 shortly after it being the center in narco trafficking, which 792 00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:40.639 it stayed throughout the entire Taliban era. It also became 793 00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:47.119 one of the centers of counter terrorism. So as a 794 00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:52.199 case officer and a manager of case officers, we always 795 00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:56.280 wanted to make sure that we weren't just doing something 796 00:49:56.519 --> 00:50:00.960 because it was something we wanted to do. You don't 797 00:50:01.159 --> 00:50:05.159 commit espionage because it's a cool thing to do. It's 798 00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:08.039 just not because you're putting a person at risk, whoever 799 00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:11.760 that is that's producing that intelligence. We're regardless of where 800 00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:16.280 they are, they are being put at risk. So you 801 00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:19.719 better have a reason behind it, you know. The truth 802 00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:26.119 is is that Afghanistan had sufficient reasons for all those 803 00:50:26.199 --> 00:50:30.239 years that you could always say, Okay, yeah, I know 804 00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:34.519 it's a country that has no economy, and I know 805 00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:38.079 that it really doesn't nobody really cares about it. But 806 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:43.039 it's the primary producer of black tar opium. Oh well, yeah, 807 00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:47.559 that's disruptive, so yeah, we want to do something about that. 808 00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:51.480 Oh by the way, it's where ben Laden's headquarters is now, 809 00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:55.239 and he's training people. Long before we thought he was 810 00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:58.360 training people to attack America, he was training people to 811 00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:02.840 attack people all over the world, basically the entire West, 812 00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:04.599 So it was not a real problem. 813 00:51:04.840 --> 00:51:09.960 So when nine to eleven happens, was all these images 814 00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:13.679 of Masad and the northern alliance bin Laden was this 815 00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:16.400 what immediately came to mind, And if you could, I 816 00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:18.679 think we talked about this with with Rick Prado a 817 00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:20.639 little bit, but if you could talk to us a 818 00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:23.000 little bit about what it was like inside CTC and 819 00:51:23.119 --> 00:51:24.000 SAD that day. 820 00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:29.639 I can't tell you because I was on TDY in California. 821 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.519 I was in California, I was driving, I was I 822 00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:38.599 was actually driving with my wife going to the FBI, 823 00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:42.280 and I got a phone call on the mobile phone 824 00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:46.760 saying from the regional boss saying, turn on the radio. 825 00:51:47.719 --> 00:51:52.199 And we're like, okay, you know, or we're in the 826 00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:56.280 middle of nowhere, We're probably she said, it doesn't matter, 827 00:51:56.559 --> 00:51:58.599 turn on any radio station. 828 00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:03.239 So that was, you know, as soon as nine to 829 00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:04.000 eleven happened. 830 00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:07.119 I mean we all, I mean basically all of us 831 00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:11.559 who had been doing the counter terrorism gig knew it 832 00:52:11.719 --> 00:52:16.159 was al Qaeda and it was designed and perpetrated by 833 00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:20.280 Ben Ladden. Now just because I mean, is what I thought, right? 834 00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:22.639 I mean, in the CIA, you got to make a 835 00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:25.719 very significant distinction between what you think and what you know. 836 00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:29.679 What you know is based on intelligence that you have 837 00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:33.199 either collected or somebody else's collected. It might be human, 838 00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:35.960 it might be Sigan, it might be something else. That's 839 00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:39.480 what you know. But all of us who have been 840 00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:45.039 working these targets for five years new or at least 841 00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:49.199 we thought, we certainly thought that it was ben Laden. 842 00:52:50.199 --> 00:52:50.920 So it took me. 843 00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:55.199 I mean, as we're driving, my wife turns to me 844 00:52:55.239 --> 00:52:58.400 and goes, you realize, you know, you're going to get 845 00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:00.880 on an airplane as soon as you can. They're going 846 00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:04.920 to call you back. And I was like, yeah, yeah, 847 00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:07.039 I know that. It wasn't like it was the first 848 00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:10.880 TDY I disappeared on. But you know, for a few days, 849 00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:15.119 I was able to close up some cases that that 850 00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:19.400 had been because you couldn't travel unless you drove someplace, 851 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:23.800 and so I traveled to a bunch of different FBI 852 00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:28.119 units that were working cases and try to help them 853 00:53:28.159 --> 00:53:31.360 work through what they're what they were doing because their 854 00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:33.239 world changed completely. 855 00:53:32.920 --> 00:53:33.360 Of course. 856 00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:36.719 And then as soon as the. 857 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:42.559 As soon as you could fly, I was called back 858 00:53:42.599 --> 00:53:49.280 to Washington and that's when I By that time, CTC 859 00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:55.960 Special Operations CTCSO had already been established, and I had 860 00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:57.880 a little sad face because I thought that I was 861 00:53:57.920 --> 00:53:59.599 going to go out with the team that went to 862 00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:01.880 the punch. I mean, I had helped set up the 863 00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:03.960 team that went to the pond ch here, I'd met Masu, 864 00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:08.119 I'd done all that stuff, and I get back and uh, 865 00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:10.840 they already gone. 866 00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:13.840 What was that that Jawbreaker? 867 00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:18.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly it was. It was actually, you know, 868 00:54:18.039 --> 00:54:21.079 officially titled the Northern Afghanistan Liaison. 869 00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:26.079 Team, and Jawbreaker was Nault three. So I'd been on 870 00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:26.719 Nault one. 871 00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:29.440 I'd had some of my guys, my flyaway guys, on 872 00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:35.199 Nault two, so I felt a little bit of of ownership. 873 00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:38.360 Well that was you know, slapped out of my head 874 00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:42.639 pretty quickly. Uh and uh, I was I was terrified 875 00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:43.280 that I was going. 876 00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:43.639 To end up. 877 00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:45.320 You know, I was back in the basement because that's 878 00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:48.280 where the the space was, and I thought, for sure, 879 00:54:48.880 --> 00:54:53.679 I'm going to be you know, doing uh all the 880 00:54:53.920 --> 00:54:56.559 all the kinds of stuff that that headquarters, all the 881 00:54:56.599 --> 00:55:02.280 important stuff, right, the logistics, the the management, but still 882 00:55:02.719 --> 00:55:05.079 not the cool guy stuff. And let's face it, you know, 883 00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:08.079 we all, given an opportunity want to be cool guys. 884 00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:12.239 So even at forty six, which is how old I 885 00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:16.039 was at that point in time. So but as soon 886 00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:18.599 as they started the as soon as you know I 887 00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:20.320 got my in brief. They were like, oh no, no, no, 888 00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:23.960 don't you worry. We're putting together another the first team 889 00:55:24.159 --> 00:55:27.159 that's going to go behind the lines, that's you, and 890 00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:32.320 Sad has already got the team assembled. Alex was my 891 00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:35.599 deputy and he was already assembling a team. Justin was 892 00:55:35.639 --> 00:55:39.599 there by the way, just a small sidebar to show 893 00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:42.880 how small the world is. Justin Sapp's dad was my 894 00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:48.559 instructor at the farm, so so you know it was 895 00:55:48.880 --> 00:55:52.159 it is a small world, Eddihow. The point is is 896 00:55:52.199 --> 00:55:56.159 that I start figuring out, Okay, we're going to go, 897 00:55:56.960 --> 00:56:01.440 how are we going to get in? And we can 898 00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:04.119 fast forward to that process. The only thing that's really 899 00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:07.400 fun or an interesting really the rest of it, it's 900 00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:10.719 just sort of administrative stories. But an interesting story is 901 00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:13.599 the day before I left, so I went out a 902 00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:18.920 day about actually a week early to Tashkent. Alex was 903 00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:23.360 assembling the team, assembling the weapons, assembling the como, assembling 904 00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:25.639 all of that, which obviously wasn't going to go on commercial. 905 00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:30.239 So he was assembling the equipment and the team that 906 00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:33.159 was going to go out on an agency bird. I 907 00:56:33.239 --> 00:56:35.559 went out commercial to tush Kent. But the day before 908 00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:39.480 I went out, it's a Sunday. There's you know, I mean, 909 00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:43.159 the team down in the basement that's managing CTCSO is 910 00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:48.079 working diligently, but it's basically an empty building. And in 911 00:56:48.599 --> 00:56:51.559 I'm sitting in front of a picnic bench because you know, 912 00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:55.000 it's a folding classic plastic picnic bench, because that's all 913 00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:57.920 there was in the basement. And I'm working through my 914 00:56:58.079 --> 00:56:59.719 notes and trying to figure out what we're going to 915 00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:05.280 do now next when incomes Director Tenant co for Black 916 00:57:06.079 --> 00:57:11.480 and Hank Crumpton. And I have known I've known Hank 917 00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:14.599 a little bit. I've known Koe for oh, I don't 918 00:57:14.599 --> 00:57:17.239 know at that point, fifteen years or so. I mean, 919 00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:21.719 it's a small world. So Director Tenant comes in. He's 920 00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:24.039 a big, burly guy. You've probably seen pictures of him 921 00:57:24.079 --> 00:57:28.199 at the very least, and he walks over to you know, 922 00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:30.719 the map that's at the table, and he goes, come here, Jah, 923 00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:32.599 I want to tell you what I want you to do. 924 00:57:33.239 --> 00:57:37.519 I'm like, yes, sir, I think I know. He says, why, 925 00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:38.840 I want to be clear. 926 00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:41.400 I want you to be clear about this, yes, sir, 927 00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:44.480 So he takes and because he's a big, burly guy, 928 00:57:44.559 --> 00:57:48.480 he takes a very large hand and puts it over 929 00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:54.119 all of northern Afghanistan and he says, Okay, Jair, listen, 930 00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:58.000 here's the deal. These are the five provinces of Afghanistan 931 00:57:58.039 --> 00:58:00.719 that you're responsible for. I want you to destroy the 932 00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:05.320 Taliban and capture or kill any Al Qaeda you could find. Yes, Sir, 933 00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:08.440 it was okay. Just wanted to be clear. He got 934 00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:11.400 up and left. That was it. That was my I mean, 935 00:58:11.679 --> 00:58:14.760 you know, in the army we talk about commanders in 936 00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:18.159 tent right, right. I mean, you can't ask for better 937 00:58:18.199 --> 00:58:20.800 commanders in tent right than that. 938 00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:24.400 In my opinion, Hey JR? Can you fix Afghanistan for us? 939 00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:25.599 If you could have that done by the end of 940 00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:26.400 the week, that'd be great. 941 00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:26.880 Thanks man. 942 00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:30.719 Luck Well, I mean, it wasn't only not all of Afghanistan, 943 00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:33.800 just five problems. I mean I have eight guys, right right, 944 00:58:33.800 --> 00:58:36.280 so you know, by the way, I mean, of course, 945 00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:37.840 at that point, I didn't know how it was going 946 00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:41.239 to get in. I didn't know what I was going 947 00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:44.159 to do when I got in. But he didn't care 948 00:58:44.199 --> 00:58:46.320 about that part because he was certain that I was 949 00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:49.559 going to make it work. Yeah, and you know, I 950 00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:53.679 guess if any of your your your listeners have read 951 00:58:53.719 --> 00:58:57.960 either Doug Stanton's book or Toby Harden's book. We were 952 00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:00.719 able to do that. Now, sadly we lost one of 953 00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:05.880 our guys while doing it, but we were able to 954 00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:11.840 accomplish that in probably much shorter time. I mean, when 955 00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:15.000 Alex and I talked about this, you know, we just said, 956 00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:16.360 you know, we're going to be in for a year. 957 00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:22.119 I hope you're prepared for a year. And I've told 958 00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:25.639 this to lots of people over time. This was a 959 00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:30.400 you know this, the success in the Fall of two 960 00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:33.760 thousand and one is a function of three things. 961 00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:34.360 Right. 962 00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:39.719 It's a function of a CIA network, it's a function 963 00:59:39.920 --> 00:59:44.880 of ODA capabilities, and it's a function of US air power. 964 00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:50.320 Now you might say, well, what about the locals. Absolutely, 965 00:59:50.360 --> 00:59:52.960 the locals are a centerpiece to this, But the locals 966 00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:56.400 had been fighting the Taliban for the better part of 967 00:59:56.639 --> 01:00:01.880 three years and making and having almost no success along 968 01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:05.199 the way. So it was the addition of those three 969 01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:14.480 resources working together in collaboration, but not necessarily you know, 970 01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:17.599 trying to do the same thing. Everybody was doing something different. 971 01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:22.320 Is how we were able to accomplish what got accomplished, 972 01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:25.679 and I mean we inserted on the sixteenth of October. 973 01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:30.119 ODA five nine five I think came in on the 974 01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:34.159 night of eighteen nineteen, so two days later, two and 975 01:00:34.199 --> 01:00:38.079 a half days later, ODA five three four came in, 976 01:00:39.400 --> 01:00:47.480 about two weeks later, the the the ODC came in 977 01:00:48.440 --> 01:00:53.559 about another week after that, and in the space of 978 01:00:54.199 --> 01:00:58.320 so we and we rolled into Mazar Sharief on the 979 01:00:58.480 --> 01:00:59.360 tenth of November. 980 01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:04.159 Yeah, could you tell us about your team at Alpha team, 981 01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:07.400 kind of your planning process and insertion and kind of 982 01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:08.239 how that played out. 983 01:01:10.360 --> 01:01:13.280 Well, yeah, I mean, like most agency stuff, it's just 984 01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:19.519 sort of informal. So I had I was in Tushkent 985 01:01:19.639 --> 01:01:22.679 for like a week ten days, well about a week 986 01:01:22.719 --> 01:01:26.199 before before Alex was able to come in. So I 987 01:01:26.280 --> 01:01:28.719 spent that time period doing a couple of different things. 988 01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:32.519 The first thing was to work with the both the 989 01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:36.559 station there and with the Uzbek service to get in 990 01:01:36.639 --> 01:01:42.000 contact with with Abdu Rashido Stamp because he was the 991 01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:44.760 one guy that we had up in the north that 992 01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:47.800 we that was working behind the lines that we knew. 993 01:01:47.920 --> 01:01:49.880 I mean, there were other guys working behind the lines, 994 01:01:49.920 --> 01:01:52.440 but he was the one that we knew. So I 995 01:01:52.519 --> 01:01:55.880 started getting into a conversation with him on satellite phone. 996 01:01:57.199 --> 01:01:59.400 And he's a character and a half. I mean mostly 997 01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:02.880 if you've read anything about him, you know that. And 998 01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:08.400 you know early on he uh. So I decided, because 999 01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:11.599 I knew that they had no encrypted comms, I wasn't 1000 01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:14.800 going to give my true names. So I decided I 1001 01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:18.440 was my my nom de guerre was going to be 1002 01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:23.039 Baba John, which just means grandfather. So we're talking back 1003 01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:27.480 and forth and he says, you know, Baba John, I'm ready. 1004 01:02:27.519 --> 01:02:29.800 I mean, we're ready for you, but we want to 1005 01:02:29.920 --> 01:02:33.079 want you to know it's a little different here in Afghanistan. 1006 01:02:33.199 --> 01:02:36.519 And I was like, yes, Commander, I kind of know that. 1007 01:02:37.079 --> 01:02:39.000 And he's like, well, no, let me just explain to you. 1008 01:02:39.320 --> 01:02:42.800 So what we call an armored personnel carrier, you call 1009 01:02:42.840 --> 01:02:46.920 a horse, and uh, you know, I was like, got 1010 01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:47.519 it right. 1011 01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:47.920 Check. 1012 01:02:48.880 --> 01:02:52.280 But so so I've so I know, I got a 1013 01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:55.239 guy at the other end. Now I got to get in. 1014 01:02:56.519 --> 01:02:59.519 So we have some resource, some agency resources there, but 1015 01:02:59.679 --> 01:03:03.000 nothing that will get us in deep enough to where 1016 01:03:03.039 --> 01:03:05.880 we want to go. And I've got a couple of 1017 01:03:05.920 --> 01:03:09.840 guys from the from the agency from s A D 1018 01:03:10.039 --> 01:03:14.800 Air branch, and I find that the at the at 1019 01:03:14.840 --> 01:03:18.559 the Toashkent Airport, actually the military side of the Tashkent 1020 01:03:18.639 --> 01:03:27.000 Airport is an old Soviet aircraft kind of looks it's 1021 01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:29.480 a it's a biplane sort of. 1022 01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:32.719 It's a Its use is in the old Soviet days. 1023 01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:36.199 It's used as a crop duster and moving people around 1024 01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:41.000 and so it's it's an Antonov too. It's been around 1025 01:03:41.039 --> 01:03:43.159 for a very long time. But I thought it was 1026 01:03:43.239 --> 01:03:45.840 kind of cool because it looked like a lifesander. Now, 1027 01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:48.320 for those of you who don't know what a lysander is, 1028 01:03:48.400 --> 01:03:52.400 it is the aircraft that virtually all of the s 1029 01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:55.119 OE and the OSS guys who didn't go in by 1030 01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:59.360 parachute into France went in by lysander. It's an it's 1031 01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:03.880 a high way stole aircraft. And I thought, how cool 1032 01:04:03.880 --> 01:04:04.440 would this be? 1033 01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:05.039 Right? 1034 01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:07.559 I mean, this is like right out, I mean we're 1035 01:04:07.599 --> 01:04:12.760 already CTCSO right, So, I mean, which is what ossso 1036 01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:15.760 SO is where they took the name from. So Okay, 1037 01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:19.199 I go to the our crew, our air branch guys, 1038 01:04:19.199 --> 01:04:21.280 and I go, what do you think? And they said, 1039 01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:23.440 I don't know, we'll go check it out. They come 1040 01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:26.599 back that afternoon. They said, we'll fly anything, but we 1041 01:04:26.679 --> 01:04:32.800 cannot fly that. That airplane does not that's not safe. 1042 01:04:33.519 --> 01:04:36.199 And that said a lot to me because I'd flown 1043 01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:40.400 a bunch of different air branch aircraft and a bunch 1044 01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:44.320 of different aircraft air branch pilots who will fly anywhere 1045 01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:49.159 and do just about anything, and I thought, who I 1046 01:04:49.159 --> 01:04:54.039 guess that didn't work out. So we're still puzzling over this, 1047 01:04:54.159 --> 01:04:57.119 and Alex gets in and we're doing all the other 1048 01:04:57.199 --> 01:05:00.159 sort of team and isolation stuff that an s F 1049 01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:02.440 team or a MARSC team would be doing, right, we're 1050 01:05:02.480 --> 01:05:08.039 doing you know, everybody's doing the checking weapons, checking comms, 1051 01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:10.440 everybody's cross checking. What are you going to be able 1052 01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:17.840 to do? We're getting our our our medic mark is 1053 01:05:17.920 --> 01:05:20.519 giving us sort of basic this is your medic kit, 1054 01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:23.519 this is my medic kit. This is what's going on. 1055 01:05:25.800 --> 01:05:29.199 And I'm just puzzling with Alex. I'm like, we got 1056 01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:31.880 to get in, but we can't walk in. I mean 1057 01:05:31.880 --> 01:05:35.519 there's this river and we can't drive in because we 1058 01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:38.400 can't cross the bridge because the Taliban owned the bridge. 1059 01:05:38.760 --> 01:05:43.239 And he was like, well, let me get down to Carshaknabat. 1060 01:05:43.480 --> 01:05:46.400 You know, I've still got some contacts down there. See 1061 01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:50.000 what I can do. Remember now, Alex was a was 1062 01:05:50.039 --> 01:05:53.440 a retired senior sergeant major. I mean he'd been a 1063 01:05:53.440 --> 01:06:01.239 sergeant major in like multiple units in uh in the military, okay, 1064 01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:06.199 multiple special forces units, multiple soft units. So he had 1065 01:06:06.239 --> 01:06:10.239 a couple of contacts. So I said, excellent, you know 1066 01:06:10.280 --> 01:06:13.119 we can I got you know, the the agency pilots 1067 01:06:13.159 --> 01:06:15.159 will fly you down there. That's not a problem. So 1068 01:06:15.199 --> 01:06:19.559 he goes down like the next day, he's magically said, hey, 1069 01:06:19.679 --> 01:06:24.320 we're good to go. Uh I've talked to John mulholland 1070 01:06:25.039 --> 01:06:27.679 and uh, we're you know, we're good to go. We 1071 01:06:27.800 --> 01:06:31.840 got we We're going to fly in on the the 1072 01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:33.559 night Stalkers are going to take us in. 1073 01:06:33.760 --> 01:06:34.920 I'm like sweet. 1074 01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:38.599 So we get down to we then we all fly 1075 01:06:38.719 --> 01:06:41.440 down to tash to kku Z and go into isolation. 1076 01:06:42.440 --> 01:06:47.079 And I go over to the night Stalkers and fold 1077 01:06:47.159 --> 01:06:51.679 up my map and I say, I take my little 1078 01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:55.079 fat finger like right out of Ranger school, point to 1079 01:06:55.760 --> 01:07:00.360 the place. I that's that's where that's where our uh 1080 01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:01.679 are Elsie is. 1081 01:07:01.679 --> 01:07:02.000 Going to be. 1082 01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:06.360 And they're like okay, and They're like, how do you 1083 01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:10.840 want to get there? I'm like, guys, you're the pilots. 1084 01:07:11.199 --> 01:07:14.440 I have no idea. I'm not gonna I'm certainly not 1085 01:07:14.480 --> 01:07:17.320 going to try to tell guys from Task Force one 1086 01:07:17.480 --> 01:07:20.639 sixty how to fly helicopters and where to go. All 1087 01:07:20.679 --> 01:07:24.000 I want to do I've pointed once again feels that's 1088 01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:27.519 where I want to go, and they're like, okay, any 1089 01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:28.559 other thing, anything else. 1090 01:07:28.639 --> 01:07:30.199 I said, well, I don't know if. 1091 01:07:30.119 --> 01:07:33.719 We're going to have a reception committee, but you're not 1092 01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:37.760 taking us back right this bird. Your birds are going 1093 01:07:37.800 --> 01:07:41.280 to be empty when you go home. We'll getting off 1094 01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:45.559 and if there's no reception committee, we'll figure out what 1095 01:07:45.559 --> 01:07:48.519 we're going to do at that point, and they looked 1096 01:07:48.519 --> 01:07:50.679 at me. Clearly, they looked at me, and they're like, 1097 01:07:51.400 --> 01:07:55.760 oh boy, sure, this guy's nuts, but you know what, 1098 01:07:56.199 --> 01:07:59.920 it's a mission. It's a really good mission. We're doing it. 1099 01:08:01.119 --> 01:08:04.440 So there was some weather issues, like there always is 1100 01:08:04.480 --> 01:08:07.039 in Afghanistan. So we were actually supposed to go in 1101 01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:10.519 first the night of thirteenth and then the night of 1102 01:08:10.519 --> 01:08:12.880 the fourteenth, and eventually the weather cleared up and we 1103 01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:17.760 ended up in the night of the sixteenth and so 1104 01:08:19.800 --> 01:08:22.359 that's how we got I mean, that's I have a 1105 01:08:22.399 --> 01:08:25.960 whole story about getting in, but I that maybe just 1106 01:08:26.079 --> 01:08:28.279 answers at least the front end of your question. Is 1107 01:08:28.279 --> 01:08:30.199 there something else you wanted to talk about as far 1108 01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:32.359 as kku z first. 1109 01:08:32.159 --> 01:08:34.920 Before before we move forward, I just want to ask 1110 01:08:34.960 --> 01:08:42.039 you because you were, like you were working Afghanistan in hindsight, 1111 01:08:42.159 --> 01:08:45.840 like in retrospect when people go through the records, and 1112 01:08:45.880 --> 01:08:49.039 I'm not talking about the you know, the hijackers here 1113 01:08:49.039 --> 01:08:52.920 in the United States, but was there ever any indication 1114 01:08:53.319 --> 01:08:58.399 or ever any any intelligence that like looking backwards, that 1115 01:08:58.399 --> 01:09:00.920 that people could have predicted. Was there any way to 1116 01:09:01.399 --> 01:09:04.000 tyl like Masud's death on the nine to what was 1117 01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:04.640 going to happen? 1118 01:09:05.479 --> 01:09:08.159 Or was it just a completely closed loop at that time? 1119 01:09:09.159 --> 01:09:14.840 I mean I wasn't involved in the headquarters analysis of that, 1120 01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:20.079 So I mean the short answer is I don't know, Okay. 1121 01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:24.800 I can say that certainly ben Laden made no secret 1122 01:09:24.840 --> 01:09:27.920 about the fact that he was going to attack Americans, 1123 01:09:28.720 --> 01:09:32.760 not necessarily America, but he had named US in nineteen 1124 01:09:32.840 --> 01:09:38.560 ninety eight as the main enemy, and of course he 1125 01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:43.000 had attacked the embassies, right, so he got the Nairobi 1126 01:09:43.039 --> 01:09:46.119 and the darbombings, and then he attacks the USS call 1127 01:09:47.239 --> 01:09:51.159 very clearly he was going to live up to his 1128 01:09:51.319 --> 01:09:57.239 statement that he was going to attack Americans. Now the 1129 01:09:58.000 --> 01:10:00.720 nine to eleven side of the house, I don't know, 1130 01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:06.279 I mean, I really don't know. I certainly don't have 1131 01:10:06.520 --> 01:10:08.680 any I mean, the stuff I was working with the 1132 01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:15.159 FBI was more focused on possible other kinds of infiltration. 1133 01:10:15.319 --> 01:10:19.319 Remember the nine to eleven hijackers are are Arabs, and 1134 01:10:19.399 --> 01:10:23.680 they were on legitimate visas, right and and really not 1135 01:10:24.319 --> 01:10:27.520 associated in any way, shape or form that we could. 1136 01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:31.199 I mean maybe in hindsight somebody's looking up and figured 1137 01:10:31.239 --> 01:10:34.439 it outright, but certainly not not from my perspective, right. 1138 01:10:34.479 --> 01:10:36.439 And I like in h and that's why I say, 1139 01:10:36.439 --> 01:10:39.800 like in hindsight, it's it's always easier or PC like 1140 01:10:39.880 --> 01:10:44.399 it seems obvious or whatever. But you know, I don't 1141 01:10:44.399 --> 01:10:48.279 think that people understand sort of the massive intelligence requirements 1142 01:10:48.600 --> 01:10:51.800 that are placed on you know, the CIA, the FBI, 1143 01:10:51.960 --> 01:10:54.760 the NSA, and you just can't collect on every single 1144 01:10:54.760 --> 01:10:57.479 individual in the world. I was just wondering if if 1145 01:10:57.520 --> 01:11:01.840 it had ever if I if especially in Afghanistan at time, 1146 01:11:02.199 --> 01:11:04.520 like if we had access to those camps if we 1147 01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:10.439 had sources, or if they were just so insular, insular 1148 01:11:10.479 --> 01:11:14.000 and isolated that that there was no way to sort 1149 01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:14.720 of predict that. 1150 01:11:15.880 --> 01:11:16.720 I have no idea. 1151 01:11:16.840 --> 01:11:20.039 Yeah, I mean, I really don't uh that that camps 1152 01:11:20.239 --> 01:11:25.680 were that Ben Lawden and his crew. Remember Ben Laden 1153 01:11:25.840 --> 01:11:29.199 was the figurehead, but he had a very sophisticated crew 1154 01:11:29.239 --> 01:11:34.000 of guys who understood counterintelligence. Why do they understand counter 1155 01:11:34.000 --> 01:11:37.279 intelligence because they had been on the run, they'd had 1156 01:11:37.439 --> 01:11:40.359 like half a dozen services trying to kill them for 1157 01:11:40.399 --> 01:11:42.119 almost a dozen years. 1158 01:11:41.960 --> 01:11:43.720 Right, right, And so. 1159 01:11:45.760 --> 01:11:49.600 How they protected their intelligence, how they how they protected 1160 01:11:49.640 --> 01:11:53.359 their operations is I just wasn't involved in it. 1161 01:11:53.399 --> 01:11:56.479 So I'm not even going to try and answer that question. 1162 01:11:56.640 --> 01:12:01.399 Well, the Afghans, like even you know, during warlike they 1163 01:12:01.479 --> 01:12:04.319 had fairly sophisticated counter as well, just because of their 1164 01:12:04.319 --> 01:12:07.159 dealings with the Russians, whether they were trained by Russians 1165 01:12:07.600 --> 01:12:11.520 or working against the Russians like they were not. You know, 1166 01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:15.199 you think of Afghanistan as a non you know, not 1167 01:12:15.239 --> 01:12:18.760 a very advanced country, not very technological, but they've been 1168 01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:20.319 doing this for ages. 1169 01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:25.560 Oh yeah, I mean this is part of the great game, right, 1170 01:12:25.840 --> 01:12:28.520 And I'll give you I'll just give you one little 1171 01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:32.159 tiny vignette that teaches you this kind of stuff. This 1172 01:12:32.279 --> 01:12:37.279 goes back to the eighties. So I was I. I 1173 01:12:37.439 --> 01:12:41.840 had a case that was that I had turned from 1174 01:12:41.920 --> 01:12:48.399 being a case about about combat operations into a penetration 1175 01:12:48.720 --> 01:12:54.479 of the Afghan Ministry of Defense, the DRA Ministry Defense. 1176 01:12:55.439 --> 01:12:58.720 And it was a complicated thing because we had to 1177 01:12:58.760 --> 01:13:05.199 do I mean, the communications network was unsophisticated. We were 1178 01:13:05.279 --> 01:13:10.119 getting intelligence I got. I was able to get a 1179 01:13:10.159 --> 01:13:14.720 document copy camera into Cobble. I was getting document film 1180 01:13:14.840 --> 01:13:17.840 out of Cobble. And the very first time that I 1181 01:13:17.880 --> 01:13:21.880 got one of those things, I was sitting there with 1182 01:13:21.920 --> 01:13:24.920 a guy who was managing I mean the Afghan who 1183 01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:29.760 was managing this network, and we're sitting drinking tea, and 1184 01:13:29.800 --> 01:13:32.279 of course we're eating you know, the classic sort of 1185 01:13:32.479 --> 01:13:36.840 pistachios and almonds and raisins and all that stuff Coot 1186 01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:38.920 exactly Mulber's. 1187 01:13:39.439 --> 01:13:44.760 And he said, so, how do you like the mix? 1188 01:13:45.039 --> 01:13:49.000 And I was like, okay, it's great. He said, is 1189 01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:50.159 it salty or sweet? 1190 01:13:51.359 --> 01:13:53.479 And you know, of course I'm thinking maybe this is 1191 01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:56.760 a rapport thing, right, So I'm saying, well, I find 1192 01:13:56.760 --> 01:13:57.680 it kind of salty. 1193 01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:04.039 And he said exactly. And that's our signal that. 1194 01:14:04.079 --> 01:14:08.239 The material that was shipped out and smuggled out through 1195 01:14:08.520 --> 01:14:16.880 three different smugglers was untouched because every one of the 1196 01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:21.880 guys in the network had to include something and each 1197 01:14:21.960 --> 01:14:25.800 of them knew what it was going to be. The 1198 01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:33.640 last one was a mix of twot raisins and salty nuts, 1199 01:14:34.199 --> 01:14:37.880 and I was like, dang, you know, this is like 1200 01:14:38.279 --> 01:14:42.439 right out of Rudyard Kipling. Yeah, you know, it was 1201 01:14:42.479 --> 01:14:47.119 really right. So, yeah, they understood, they still understand how 1202 01:14:47.680 --> 01:14:51.760 to do this properly. But in the case of the 1203 01:14:51.800 --> 01:14:55.079 al Qaeda guys, you know, Afghans weren't allowed into the 1204 01:14:55.119 --> 01:14:59.199 al Qaeda basis, right, I mean they at all. So 1205 01:14:59.760 --> 01:15:01.640 that would have meant that we would have had to 1206 01:15:01.720 --> 01:15:08.600 have recruited years before an Arab who was being vetted 1207 01:15:08.840 --> 01:15:11.279 for a mission that nobody knew about. 1208 01:15:12.319 --> 01:15:13.159 Yeesh. You know. 1209 01:15:13.520 --> 01:15:16.479 Yeah, that's that's asking a lot. 1210 01:15:17.319 --> 01:15:21.840 Yeah, So just real quick for the viewers out there, 1211 01:15:21.840 --> 01:15:23.279 I just wanted to plug our Patreon. 1212 01:15:23.359 --> 01:15:24.960 I know, they threw it up on the screen. 1213 01:15:25.079 --> 01:15:27.279 If you guys are interested in getting the episodes of 1214 01:15:27.279 --> 01:15:30.560 the Team House without advertisements in it, the link is 1215 01:15:30.640 --> 01:15:32.399 right down below and it's in the description if you 1216 01:15:32.399 --> 01:15:34.600 guys want to check it out, and we really appreciate 1217 01:15:34.640 --> 01:15:35.960 you supporting the stream. 1218 01:15:36.279 --> 01:15:36.800 So JR. 1219 01:15:36.840 --> 01:15:39.560 Tell us the story about the about the infiltration, then 1220 01:15:39.880 --> 01:15:41.760 behind enemy lines with one sixtieth. 1221 01:15:43.079 --> 01:15:45.960 The assertion was, I mean it was I mean, first 1222 01:15:45.960 --> 01:15:51.880 of all, by now we're like an hour in, you 1223 01:15:51.960 --> 01:15:54.640 realize I am basically not a cool guy. 1224 01:15:55.159 --> 01:15:55.479 Okay. 1225 01:15:55.760 --> 01:15:58.880 Now, Alex was a cool guy, and most of my 1226 01:15:59.000 --> 01:16:02.119 team was filled with cool guys. I mean real guys. 1227 01:16:02.199 --> 01:16:05.439 I mean guys who, uh you know, who had done this. 1228 01:16:05.560 --> 01:16:07.600 We had one who had you know, a ranger who 1229 01:16:07.640 --> 01:16:08.600 had been in Mogadishu. 1230 01:16:08.840 --> 01:16:09.000 You know. 1231 01:16:09.079 --> 01:16:12.359 I mean we're talking about people who had seen the elephant. 1232 01:16:12.479 --> 01:16:16.640 Is the way it's presented. Now, I'd had people shoot 1233 01:16:16.640 --> 01:16:19.039 at me, but it's a different thing. I mean, it 1234 01:16:19.159 --> 01:16:22.920 was an espionage thing as opposed to a cool guy thing. So, 1235 01:16:23.600 --> 01:16:26.960 uh we load onto it's you know, it's a classic 1236 01:16:27.039 --> 01:16:29.800 sort of story of we walk out it's the middle 1237 01:16:29.800 --> 01:16:34.079 of the night, and we load onto our two helicopters 1238 01:16:34.079 --> 01:16:34.319 we have. 1239 01:16:35.159 --> 01:16:36.680 Uh So, there's eight of us. 1240 01:16:36.680 --> 01:16:40.319 So there's four and four and a couple of Pelican 1241 01:16:40.359 --> 01:16:47.239 cases and our rucksacks and uh so the door closes. 1242 01:16:48.079 --> 01:16:52.000 John Mulholland h was was there. I think I think 1243 01:16:52.720 --> 01:16:55.279 Justin said I knew that John pulled him aside. I 1244 01:16:55.319 --> 01:16:57.199 didn't know what he said. You know, of course, you know, 1245 01:16:58.079 --> 01:17:01.600 Justin told you right, don't die, is what is what 1246 01:17:01.720 --> 01:17:07.880 John said. But so we close the doors, and you know, 1247 01:17:07.920 --> 01:17:11.119 the birds take off and and head into the darkness. 1248 01:17:11.520 --> 01:17:15.439 And I'm I've got headset just like this, uh sort 1249 01:17:15.479 --> 01:17:16.640 of except nicer. 1250 01:17:17.079 --> 01:17:17.439 Uh. 1251 01:17:17.479 --> 01:17:19.960 And so I'm doing you know, I'm talking to the 1252 01:17:20.039 --> 01:17:23.680 pilot and command and the crew. I don't have the 1253 01:17:23.720 --> 01:17:26.199 colms out. I can hear the colms out, but I 1254 01:17:26.239 --> 01:17:29.159 actually can't. They're not gonna let, you know, a guy 1255 01:17:29.239 --> 01:17:32.479 like me talk out. So the first thing that happens 1256 01:17:32.720 --> 01:17:36.239 is we're flying into the night, and all of a sudden, 1257 01:17:36.279 --> 01:17:37.520 I'm listening to the guys are. 1258 01:17:37.439 --> 01:17:39.479 You know, they're they're cool guys, and they're. 1259 01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:42.560 And and they've done a bazillion different kinds of ops, 1260 01:17:42.600 --> 01:17:45.359 so they're they're not in the least bit bothered. And 1261 01:17:45.399 --> 01:17:48.159 all of a sudden I realize they ain't talking much. 1262 01:17:49.800 --> 01:17:52.800 And then I look out my I'm I'm looking I'm 1263 01:17:52.880 --> 01:17:56.319 sitting on you know, looking out the left door. And 1264 01:17:56.359 --> 01:18:00.079 I realized we are about like, I don't know, it 1265 01:18:00.199 --> 01:18:03.600 seemed like within touching distance. Of course it wasn't. It 1266 01:18:03.640 --> 01:18:07.800 was probably forty feet from the tail of a of 1267 01:18:07.840 --> 01:18:11.279 an MC one thirty because we were refueling to get 1268 01:18:11.279 --> 01:18:16.760 into Afghanistan. And so you know, the guys are kind 1269 01:18:16.760 --> 01:18:19.520 of nervous about this because it's in the dark. They're 1270 01:18:19.520 --> 01:18:24.039 doing it with nods on and so, and we're right 1271 01:18:24.119 --> 01:18:30.640 on the Afghan border. So success, right, both birds refuel. 1272 01:18:31.119 --> 01:18:36.680 The MC one thirty pulls away, and some detached voice 1273 01:18:37.079 --> 01:18:41.319 from on high says, congratulations, gentlemen, you've just conducted the 1274 01:18:41.359 --> 01:18:45.239 first combat in air refueling for the regiment. 1275 01:18:45.600 --> 01:18:49.039 Good luck, And I thought, this is like right out 1276 01:18:49.079 --> 01:18:49.880 of a movie. 1277 01:18:50.279 --> 01:18:54.000 Later I found out that we had like aircraft stacked 1278 01:18:55.079 --> 01:18:57.079 up to the sky for this operation. It was the 1279 01:18:57.079 --> 01:19:00.600 only operation taking place that night, right, So we had 1280 01:19:00.880 --> 01:19:04.800 uh a jstars, we had the inner refueling, we had 1281 01:19:05.439 --> 01:19:09.159 three different C one thirties, we had we had fast movers. 1282 01:19:10.920 --> 01:19:13.159 We had a lot of aircraft with us. So anyhow, 1283 01:19:13.399 --> 01:19:16.039 as soon as that happens, the guys just dropped down 1284 01:19:16.199 --> 01:19:20.399 onto the deck and we cross over the Amu Daria 1285 01:19:20.479 --> 01:19:24.399 and head into Afghanistan in the pitch stark and you know, 1286 01:19:24.600 --> 01:19:26.960 it's it's up and down because there's a lot of 1287 01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:31.279 mountains there. So I'm looking at the watch and I'm 1288 01:19:31.399 --> 01:19:34.279 and i'm I'm listening to the guys talker. 1289 01:19:34.359 --> 01:19:36.680 They're the the. 1290 01:19:36.159 --> 01:19:39.199 The co pilot is telling the pile in command and 1291 01:19:39.239 --> 01:19:42.520 the crew sort of the countdown as far as how 1292 01:19:42.600 --> 01:19:44.199 long it's going to be before we. 1293 01:19:44.199 --> 01:19:44.920 Hit the LC. 1294 01:19:46.840 --> 01:19:53.199 And uh, what I'm thinking about is, uh, one thing, right, 1295 01:19:53.399 --> 01:19:57.319 just one thing, which is there are two door handles 1296 01:19:58.279 --> 01:20:02.560 on a black Hawk. One is the door handle that 1297 01:20:02.720 --> 01:20:06.119 opens the door. The other one is the door handle 1298 01:20:06.199 --> 01:20:10.720 that releases the door in an in an accident. Now 1299 01:20:11.319 --> 01:20:14.600 I know, I mean, I hadn't worked with one sixtyth, 1300 01:20:14.640 --> 01:20:16.800 but I worked with a lot of pilots of all sorts. 1301 01:20:16.920 --> 01:20:19.960 I realized none of them want to leave parts of 1302 01:20:20.000 --> 01:20:24.159 their airplane behind when we pull away. So I'm, you know, 1303 01:20:24.239 --> 01:20:27.359 I'm staring right at that making sure I grab it 1304 01:20:27.560 --> 01:20:32.079 right handle. And it's pitch black. I can't see, and 1305 01:20:32.159 --> 01:20:35.520 I don't have my k noods on. It's you're really black, 1306 01:20:35.560 --> 01:20:38.680 and and the guys are counting it down and they're like, OK, JIR, 1307 01:20:38.920 --> 01:20:45.039 We're one minute out. So so I said to the guys, well, okay, 1308 01:20:45.079 --> 01:20:47.399 I key the mic and I say, okay, guys, like 1309 01:20:47.560 --> 01:20:50.359 thanks to the ride. We'll see on the other side. 1310 01:20:51.359 --> 01:20:53.760 And I was just getting ready to take the headset off, 1311 01:20:53.800 --> 01:20:55.600 because that's the other thing you don't want to do. 1312 01:20:56.399 --> 01:20:59.239 It tells people right up front that you're not a 1313 01:20:59.279 --> 01:21:02.079 cool guy when you like get off the helicopter and 1314 01:21:02.159 --> 01:21:05.119 you still have the headset on your head, right, That's 1315 01:21:05.479 --> 01:21:10.079 that's not going to work. So okay, fine, Just as 1316 01:21:10.520 --> 01:21:12.720 I'm about to take the headset off, I hear the 1317 01:21:13.239 --> 01:21:16.079 pilot commands say hey JR. I think we're here, and 1318 01:21:16.159 --> 01:21:20.520 I look out over his shoulder and out there is 1319 01:21:20.600 --> 01:21:25.119 what looks to be like about two tennis courts lit 1320 01:21:25.239 --> 01:21:30.920 by about fifty sixty what light bulbs. Because I had 1321 01:21:30.920 --> 01:21:33.439 tried to talk ghost them into, you know, doing some 1322 01:21:33.479 --> 01:21:37.199 sort of American I mean, I had my ranger handbook. 1323 01:21:37.279 --> 01:21:39.720 I know how to set up an elsie, and I've 1324 01:21:39.720 --> 01:21:41.560 been telling him how to you know, do all the stuff, 1325 01:21:41.600 --> 01:21:44.920 and he was like, no, no, don't worry, it'll be 1326 01:21:44.960 --> 01:21:49.560 set up. And I'm like, okay, I guess I'm just 1327 01:21:49.600 --> 01:21:51.439 going to have to take your word for it, And 1328 01:21:51.479 --> 01:21:53.840 in fact it was absolutely set up. 1329 01:21:54.600 --> 01:21:59.079 So our bird lands. The second bird, of course, hovers over. 1330 01:22:00.079 --> 01:22:03.199 It's got the miniguns looking at any kind of because 1331 01:22:03.319 --> 01:22:06.720 we still don't know good guys, bad guys, could be 1332 01:22:06.760 --> 01:22:10.399 anybody might be a mistake. We're in the right place 1333 01:22:10.479 --> 01:22:13.880 for sure. I'm not worried about that one. So I 1334 01:22:13.960 --> 01:22:16.720 opened up the door, I grabbed the right handle, I 1335 01:22:17.399 --> 01:22:20.119 got the headset off. Now the agreement was I was 1336 01:22:20.119 --> 01:22:23.239 going to get out of the helicopter. Everybody else was 1337 01:22:23.239 --> 01:22:27.479 going to stay in the helicopter until we confirmed that 1338 01:22:27.520 --> 01:22:32.399 we had a real reception committee and not Taliban, Because 1339 01:22:32.520 --> 01:22:36.000 I mean, I was confident that since right over my 1340 01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:39.560 shoulder was a minigun, I was confident that it was 1341 01:22:40.000 --> 01:22:42.600 that if there was problems, I wasn't going to have 1342 01:22:42.640 --> 01:22:43.319 to worry. 1343 01:22:43.039 --> 01:22:44.439 About, like shooting it out. 1344 01:22:44.800 --> 01:22:47.199 But I didn't want everybody out of the helicopter while 1345 01:22:47.239 --> 01:22:50.720 a shootout was taking place. Right So I look out, 1346 01:22:50.760 --> 01:22:52.880 and what do I see in the dust the helicopter 1347 01:22:52.960 --> 01:22:58.199 course blazers still turning is like about fifty people who 1348 01:22:58.279 --> 01:23:01.039 looked like the sand people from Star Wars. 1349 01:23:01.800 --> 01:23:02.039 Right. 1350 01:23:02.319 --> 01:23:06.319 They're dressed in these long it's called Chapon's that just 1351 01:23:06.520 --> 01:23:09.520 it's the long jacket. They've got the you know, the 1352 01:23:09.560 --> 01:23:12.439 cumber bun. They got knives, and they got guns, and 1353 01:23:12.479 --> 01:23:17.119 they got turbans, and I could just barely see their 1354 01:23:17.119 --> 01:23:21.800 eyes and they start walking towards the helicopter. Now, you 1355 01:23:21.840 --> 01:23:24.720 guys know, and most of your audience probably knows, when 1356 01:23:24.760 --> 01:23:29.039 a Blackhawk is on the ground, hovering the front the 1357 01:23:29.079 --> 01:23:35.399 blade is only about six feet you know, forward, and 1358 01:23:36.119 --> 01:23:39.880 it is really a bad thing to start a an 1359 01:23:39.880 --> 01:23:43.039 insertion by, you know, a bunch of guys. 1360 01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:44.560 That are supposed to be helping you getting killed. 1361 01:23:45.560 --> 01:23:51.279 So I go running out there outside the blades and 1362 01:23:52.079 --> 01:23:55.520 I lean over and I put up you know, the 1363 01:23:55.600 --> 01:24:00.439 classics sort of all everybody in the world knows, stop 1364 01:24:00.720 --> 01:24:02.399 right the hands out stop? 1365 01:24:04.319 --> 01:24:05.399 And I say stop. 1366 01:24:07.199 --> 01:24:11.079 Of course, nobody can hear me because the helicopter, and 1367 01:24:11.279 --> 01:24:14.039 all of a sudden I realized, you know, everybody in 1368 01:24:14.079 --> 01:24:16.680 front of me is sort of bend over holding their 1369 01:24:16.680 --> 01:24:19.359 hands out. They're assuming it is some sort of you know, 1370 01:24:19.600 --> 01:24:22.159 take me to your leader sort of greeting, because after all, 1371 01:24:22.520 --> 01:24:26.800 we are aliens. And while they're not shooting at me, 1372 01:24:26.880 --> 01:24:28.880 So I turn around and give Alex a thumbs up, 1373 01:24:28.880 --> 01:24:31.520 and he starts to unload the bird. And as soon 1374 01:24:31.520 --> 01:24:33.760 as he starts to unload the bird, the guys start 1375 01:24:33.800 --> 01:24:37.680 walking forward again. And I bend over and I put 1376 01:24:37.720 --> 01:24:40.760 my hands out and yell stop, and they bend over 1377 01:24:40.920 --> 01:24:45.000 and put their hands out and stop. We could have 1378 01:24:45.039 --> 01:24:48.960 done this all night long, but I decided that it 1379 01:24:49.000 --> 01:24:52.079 was probably better for me to walk to the very 1380 01:24:52.119 --> 01:24:54.359 front grab the guy who looked like the leader. I 1381 01:24:54.399 --> 01:24:58.000 grabbed him by the collar of his chapon. I took 1382 01:24:58.039 --> 01:25:00.159 a knee. I pulled him down to take it me. 1383 01:25:00.640 --> 01:25:04.640 Everybody took a knee, and so the helicopters, you know, 1384 01:25:04.720 --> 01:25:09.119 we offload both birds. And for you know, anybody who's 1385 01:25:09.119 --> 01:25:12.239 been an assertion, whether it's day or night, when the 1386 01:25:12.279 --> 01:25:17.279 helicopters are gone, because you're hearing, has been affected by 1387 01:25:17.359 --> 01:25:20.159 this very loud noise of turbans. 1388 01:25:21.000 --> 01:25:23.479 It seems like there's absolute silence. 1389 01:25:24.159 --> 01:25:28.279 Yeah, there's just absolutely It's like you're you've got earplugs 1390 01:25:28.319 --> 01:25:28.840 in or something. 1391 01:25:30.159 --> 01:25:31.039 And uh. 1392 01:25:31.800 --> 01:25:34.720 I look over at the guy that I've grabbed and 1393 01:25:34.760 --> 01:25:39.159 he pulls down his Uh. He's he's got his turban 1394 01:25:39.239 --> 01:25:43.399 wrapped around his face. And I've got my goggles and 1395 01:25:43.439 --> 01:25:47.319 I pull my goggles up and he says, Baba John, 1396 01:25:47.720 --> 01:25:52.039 welcome to Afghanistan. We must have tea. So uh that 1397 01:25:52.399 --> 01:25:56.960 was our uh, the beginning of the adventure. And in 1398 01:25:57.000 --> 01:26:00.640 fact we did have tea, interestingly enough, and this just 1399 01:26:01.359 --> 01:26:06.399 people say, you know, these guys are you know, sophisticated 1400 01:26:06.439 --> 01:26:07.439 and unsophisticated. 1401 01:26:07.439 --> 01:26:08.520 There's big arguments about this. 1402 01:26:09.079 --> 01:26:12.239 Those them had decided he could have brought us in 1403 01:26:13.399 --> 01:26:18.479 to an Elsie on his turf, but instead what he 1404 01:26:18.520 --> 01:26:22.159 did is he brought us in on an Elsie on 1405 01:26:23.199 --> 01:26:29.960 his Shia allies turf to allow the Shia to feel 1406 01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:32.479 like they were to get the bragging rights for the 1407 01:26:32.520 --> 01:26:35.680 fact that they brought the Americans in. I thought that 1408 01:26:35.880 --> 01:26:40.479 was just pretty clever. So we ended up having tea 1409 01:26:40.640 --> 01:26:45.359 at the Adam madrasa run by the Shia leader Mahakek, 1410 01:26:46.159 --> 01:26:48.239 and then we loaded up into trucks and we went 1411 01:26:48.319 --> 01:26:52.720 to those dumbs headquarters, which was deeper into or closer 1412 01:26:52.720 --> 01:26:56.239 to the front lines, let's say. And then eventually, of course, 1413 01:26:56.239 --> 01:27:00.399 when we brought brought five nine five in used an 1414 01:27:00.439 --> 01:27:05.600 Elsie that was Dustan's Elsh right in front of what 1415 01:27:05.640 --> 01:27:07.720 we you know, where we were based out of which 1416 01:27:07.720 --> 01:27:10.119 we called the Alamo, which was you know, it was 1417 01:27:10.239 --> 01:27:12.880 very like a little Nativity scene. It was a you know, 1418 01:27:13.079 --> 01:27:16.359 we had a major It was a little stables that 1419 01:27:16.359 --> 01:27:18.199 had been abandoned and so there. 1420 01:27:18.039 --> 01:27:20.079 Was room of the inn for the Americas. 1421 01:27:21.239 --> 01:27:24.000 And so that's where we spent our next the first 1422 01:27:24.039 --> 01:27:24.800 few days. 1423 01:27:25.279 --> 01:27:28.079 And at this point, I assume you're getting the way 1424 01:27:28.079 --> 01:27:30.199 of the land, starting to assess everybody alive. 1425 01:27:30.760 --> 01:27:32.560 You're still there? What, Yeah, I missed you. 1426 01:27:32.880 --> 01:27:34.800 Uh, I was just asking. 1427 01:27:34.840 --> 01:27:36.439 I mean, at this point I assumed that you were 1428 01:27:36.479 --> 01:27:38.399 kind of getting the way of the land and assessing 1429 01:27:38.760 --> 01:27:41.239 the state of the Northern Alliance, the state of the Taliban, 1430 01:27:41.279 --> 01:27:43.600 and how you're going to live up to Director Tenants 1431 01:27:43.680 --> 01:27:46.840 directive to you know, take care of this broad Taliban 1432 01:27:46.880 --> 01:27:48.560 problem here in northern Afghanistan. 1433 01:27:49.920 --> 01:27:52.279 Well, you know, the great thing about Dustan is is 1434 01:27:52.319 --> 01:27:55.399 that you know, he was trained. He's a military guy, right. 1435 01:27:55.920 --> 01:27:59.039 He found it amusing that he he knew. How he knew, 1436 01:27:59.079 --> 01:28:00.800 I don't know, but he knew. He says, you know, 1437 01:28:00.840 --> 01:28:03.239 Baba John, I know in the eighties you were trying 1438 01:28:03.239 --> 01:28:05.520 to kill me. I think that's pretty amusing. Here we 1439 01:28:05.560 --> 01:28:10.840 are now together. So, uh, you know he he already 1440 01:28:10.880 --> 01:28:13.880 had a plant his baby. He rolled out the first 1441 01:28:13.960 --> 01:28:16.840 night right now, Dhostom, as near as I could tell, 1442 01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:20.000 never slept a whole night. If he ever slept more 1443 01:28:20.039 --> 01:28:22.800 than an hour the whole time we were rolling, I 1444 01:28:23.279 --> 01:28:26.439 never saw it. But so the first night he rolls 1445 01:28:26.439 --> 01:28:28.680 out this map that's the size of a you know, 1446 01:28:28.840 --> 01:28:34.039 a six or five x ten carpet hand drawn of Afghanistan. 1447 01:28:34.720 --> 01:28:37.960 And he says, look it, here's the deal. If we 1448 01:28:38.079 --> 01:28:43.960 take Mizaar Sharif, Kobble will fall. It's just that simple. Now, 1449 01:28:43.960 --> 01:28:47.680 I'm not going to argue with the guy, right, I'm thinking, well, 1450 01:28:47.800 --> 01:28:52.079 you know, historically that's true. When when when Mazarre Sharif 1451 01:28:52.159 --> 01:28:55.800 fell to Masud's guys, it was after you know, this 1452 01:28:55.920 --> 01:28:59.159 is after the Soviets left, the dra was done, and 1453 01:28:59.199 --> 01:29:02.279 in fact they were then able to roll in from 1454 01:29:02.840 --> 01:29:05.800 Jabal Saraje right into Cobble. So yeah, I get it. 1455 01:29:07.520 --> 01:29:12.119 But he had a you know, he said, so here's 1456 01:29:12.159 --> 01:29:18.640 who we're working with, and here's where they are, and 1457 01:29:18.680 --> 01:29:22.119 here's where we are, and we need you know, it's 1458 01:29:22.159 --> 01:29:25.319 a classic sort of warren Zevon right, without the lawyers. 1459 01:29:25.319 --> 01:29:31.279 We need guns and money, right, and so I'm like, well, 1460 01:29:31.520 --> 01:29:35.119 I've brought money, and he said, that's a good start, 1461 01:29:35.199 --> 01:29:39.960 you know, And shortly afterwards we start delivering guns and 1462 01:29:40.000 --> 01:29:44.119 bullets as well. Nine five comes in and as soon 1463 01:29:44.159 --> 01:29:46.960 as nine to five comes in, they're bringing in tea lamps, 1464 01:29:47.039 --> 01:29:52.439 so they're bringing in lasers, which is, you know, really 1465 01:29:52.479 --> 01:29:57.399 good because trying to do air strikes. Well, the United 1466 01:29:57.439 --> 01:30:00.439 States military at the time, now it changed over twenty 1467 01:30:00.479 --> 01:30:02.640 years of war, but the United States military at the 1468 01:30:02.640 --> 01:30:07.560 time were like, no, if you can't give me absolutely 1469 01:30:07.720 --> 01:30:12.479 the grid coordinate down to you know, a ten meters square, 1470 01:30:12.720 --> 01:30:16.760 we're just not going to drop any bombs. And we're like, well, 1471 01:30:16.800 --> 01:30:18.760 you know, that's going to be kind of hard because 1472 01:30:18.760 --> 01:30:20.640 we're sitting up in the mountains looking at these guys 1473 01:30:20.640 --> 01:30:23.840 with binoculars. But once nine to five and three four 1474 01:30:23.920 --> 01:30:29.520 came in with tea with soft lambs, it was it 1475 01:30:29.600 --> 01:30:32.119 was all over for the Taliban. But what was most 1476 01:30:32.159 --> 01:30:38.399 interesting about this was that the Taliban in the north, 1477 01:30:38.760 --> 01:30:41.479 I mean, there were there were serious Taliban bad guys. 1478 01:30:41.600 --> 01:30:44.520 I mean they're they're back in power and cobble, but 1479 01:30:44.680 --> 01:30:48.560 the vast majority of their foot soldiers were just that 1480 01:30:48.720 --> 01:30:51.000 they were foot soldiers. They were what the British would 1481 01:30:51.039 --> 01:30:56.239 call levies. They were either you know, kidnapped and told 1482 01:30:56.279 --> 01:30:58.119 that they were going to fight or die, or they 1483 01:30:58.119 --> 01:31:00.760 were given a small amount of money. And you know, 1484 01:31:01.560 --> 01:31:05.239 sixteen year old kid, you give him a Kalashnikoff, you 1485 01:31:05.279 --> 01:31:07.479 give him a Toyota High Loucks, and you say, you 1486 01:31:07.479 --> 01:31:10.159 can terrorize anybody in the neighborhood as long as she's 1487 01:31:10.279 --> 01:31:15.279 call yourself a Taliban. Generally speaking, he's going to say that's. 1488 01:31:15.079 --> 01:31:15.960 Cool, right. 1489 01:31:16.800 --> 01:31:22.840 But the thing about it is, hardly anybody, you know, truthfully, 1490 01:31:23.560 --> 01:31:29.239 hardly everybody's more than willing to kill for jihad, but 1491 01:31:29.479 --> 01:31:32.600 hardly anybody I ever met in Afghanistan wanted to die 1492 01:31:32.680 --> 01:31:37.640 for job. Some did, but not very many. So what 1493 01:31:37.760 --> 01:31:41.079 we were able to do with do Dostam was the 1494 01:31:41.119 --> 01:31:45.800 one who had the best connections. Was he call the 1495 01:31:45.840 --> 01:31:52.039 guys up on radios and say, hey, you know, you're 1496 01:31:52.079 --> 01:31:55.479 on the wrong side of the history here and I will, 1497 01:31:55.640 --> 01:31:58.520 in fact, I and I can pay you to be 1498 01:31:58.600 --> 01:32:02.199 on the right side. And the first time he tried that, 1499 01:32:02.199 --> 01:32:05.560 the guys would say, you know something, rude guy. 1500 01:32:05.600 --> 01:32:06.479 I was listening to him. 1501 01:32:06.520 --> 01:32:08.119 I was sitting right next to post them on the 1502 01:32:08.199 --> 01:32:11.479 radio and they're saying something rude to him and that 1503 01:32:11.640 --> 01:32:15.279 he would turn to Mark Nutch or whoever with nine 1504 01:32:15.319 --> 01:32:18.119 to five was there that day, and he'd say, see 1505 01:32:18.159 --> 01:32:20.479 that that's right over there, that's. 1506 01:32:20.319 --> 01:32:23.000 Where I am. That's the guy I'm talking to. 1507 01:32:23.680 --> 01:32:26.920 And so they'd put the soft lamb laser designator on 1508 01:32:26.960 --> 01:32:31.800 that and squish, you know, the guy would would go, 1509 01:32:32.359 --> 01:32:35.239 would be done. And then he'd call the guy next 1510 01:32:35.279 --> 01:32:37.279 to him to the right or the left of that 1511 01:32:37.439 --> 01:32:40.159 line and say, hey, mom, And you know, I was 1512 01:32:40.239 --> 01:32:42.880 just talking to Abdul and I offered him a deal 1513 01:32:43.319 --> 01:32:47.600 and he basically wasn't much interested. But you know, I'm 1514 01:32:47.640 --> 01:32:51.920 hoping that you have seen what happened to Abdul and 1515 01:32:52.000 --> 01:32:55.439 you'll come to our side. And pretty quick, that's exactly 1516 01:32:55.479 --> 01:32:59.760 what happened. A lot of the Taliban levies were like, 1517 01:33:00.439 --> 01:33:03.760 I'm not dying for these guys from Condahar. I'm from 1518 01:33:03.800 --> 01:33:07.640 around here, right and uh. And if I can, if 1519 01:33:07.680 --> 01:33:14.119 I can be financially successful as well as be on 1520 01:33:14.159 --> 01:33:15.560 the right side of history. 1521 01:33:15.800 --> 01:33:16.159 I'm in. 1522 01:33:16.880 --> 01:33:19.640 So that's basically what happened. And it was, you know, 1523 01:33:19.720 --> 01:33:24.319 one after another after another. Uh, slowly but surely, that. 1524 01:33:24.520 --> 01:33:28.520 As I said that mix, our work was to keep 1525 01:33:28.600 --> 01:33:34.880 the resistance guys fighting each other. Now, the Shia and 1526 01:33:35.439 --> 01:33:39.039 those times were close, they'd always been close, but the 1527 01:33:39.119 --> 01:33:42.600 Shia and those times weren't very close to the Tajiks Mahmadata, 1528 01:33:43.720 --> 01:33:51.000 so we had to constantly work on that. Meanwhile, we 1529 01:33:51.079 --> 01:33:55.960 needed to send a team to Bamyan so that another 1530 01:33:56.119 --> 01:33:59.439 SF team could come into Bamiyan, So that was we 1531 01:33:59.520 --> 01:34:05.399 split the team and sent h Justin and mike' span 1532 01:34:05.560 --> 01:34:10.600 and Mark in a jeep into the Bombia. That's you know, 1533 01:34:10.680 --> 01:34:13.399 so they went out, they went out and disappeared for 1534 01:34:13.560 --> 01:34:16.199 weeks because it was a long drive and they were 1535 01:34:16.239 --> 01:34:20.399 doing exactly what we were doing. And then we realized 1536 01:34:20.439 --> 01:34:23.319 that we were never going to get real success with 1537 01:34:23.399 --> 01:34:29.119 Ata until he had his own agency team and his 1538 01:34:29.279 --> 01:34:35.640 own uh Oda. So we split the team again and 1539 01:34:35.680 --> 01:34:40.560 that became then Bravo team, and that was three guys, 1540 01:34:40.560 --> 01:34:44.600 and then when Oda five three four came in, two 1541 01:34:44.640 --> 01:34:48.359 more ground branch guys and a medic came in and 1542 01:34:49.000 --> 01:34:54.159 helped set up that team. So in the space of 1543 01:34:54.560 --> 01:34:58.199 at the end of the first two weeks, we were 1544 01:34:58.239 --> 01:35:01.760 split all over there the country right we were in 1545 01:35:01.800 --> 01:35:05.680 all kinds of different directions. Three no, no less than 1546 01:35:05.680 --> 01:35:08.560 three at a time, but a lot of times two 1547 01:35:08.640 --> 01:35:12.640 or three guys going to do something. As I said, 1548 01:35:12.680 --> 01:35:15.760 we we uh you know, rolled into miss miss Archery 1549 01:35:15.880 --> 01:35:18.640 fell on the tenth of November and we rolled into 1550 01:35:18.760 --> 01:35:22.840 bizarre and uh it was like, uh, you know, it 1551 01:35:23.000 --> 01:35:26.680 was one of those things that you I mean, no 1552 01:35:26.800 --> 01:35:28.399 pictures were taken, but it was kind of like the 1553 01:35:28.800 --> 01:35:31.960 films you've seen of the liberation of Paris without the Champagne. 1554 01:35:32.600 --> 01:35:36.159 So you know, men and women throwing rose petals at us, 1555 01:35:37.119 --> 01:35:41.119 women you know, throwing their burkas underneath the jeeps so 1556 01:35:41.159 --> 01:35:47.359 that they would be driven forever destroyed. Uh, cheering crowds. 1557 01:35:47.640 --> 01:35:50.720 I mean, it was all liberation of Paris, except it 1558 01:35:50.760 --> 01:35:51.960 was the liberation of miss Archery. 1559 01:35:54.239 --> 01:35:55.600 It's incredible to think of. 1560 01:35:55.760 --> 01:35:56.239 I mean. 1561 01:35:57.640 --> 01:36:00.359 And from there, what was the next step was on the. 1562 01:36:02.119 --> 01:36:04.880 Well for us, the next step we still had a 1563 01:36:04.880 --> 01:36:08.439 couple of provinces to take care of, right, Uh so 1564 01:36:09.600 --> 01:36:12.520 the first province, the first set of provinces that we 1565 01:36:12.560 --> 01:36:16.159 had to take care of, were really not liberations but 1566 01:36:16.279 --> 01:36:19.520 just announcements. So Justin and I jumped in the jeep 1567 01:36:19.680 --> 01:36:24.359 with Dostam and we went to the three provinces. 1568 01:36:23.760 --> 01:36:24.439 To the west. 1569 01:36:25.119 --> 01:36:28.680 The first one, of course, was was his old province Chiles, 1570 01:36:28.760 --> 01:36:33.479 John sorry Pool was there, and then Maimanah as well. 1571 01:36:33.560 --> 01:36:37.199 So we did did basically a grand tour, saying, by 1572 01:36:37.239 --> 01:36:39.560 the way, the reason that Taliban are gone is because 1573 01:36:39.560 --> 01:36:43.760 they ain't coming back. They're they're done. And Dostam was 1574 01:36:43.800 --> 01:36:47.920 of course the big the big winner there and it 1575 01:36:47.960 --> 01:36:50.359 was his turf, so I wasn't surprised at that part. 1576 01:36:51.119 --> 01:36:56.600 Uh classic sort of uh you know story again, a 1577 01:36:56.640 --> 01:36:57.560 small bit of humor. 1578 01:36:57.880 --> 01:36:59.039 So we're driving. 1579 01:36:58.720 --> 01:37:01.600 Along, we were blast along on this highway that goes 1580 01:37:01.600 --> 01:37:06.439 from Missar Charief to Chevakan and uh, you know, I'm 1581 01:37:06.479 --> 01:37:09.119 still kind of nervous. I mean, there's still Taliban out there. 1582 01:37:09.600 --> 01:37:11.960 And Justin's to my you know, so I'm a lefty, 1583 01:37:12.079 --> 01:37:14.680 so I'm on the right seat looking out the window. 1584 01:37:15.199 --> 01:37:17.800 Justin's on the left seat looking out the window behind 1585 01:37:17.880 --> 01:37:21.319 Doos Dominus driver And all of a sudden and we've got, 1586 01:37:21.359 --> 01:37:23.840 you know, a truckloaded guys in front of us and 1587 01:37:23.880 --> 01:37:26.920 a truckload of guys behind us, and all of a sudden, 1588 01:37:27.319 --> 01:37:31.000 the trucks absolutely screech to a halt and go into 1589 01:37:31.079 --> 01:37:34.640 a herring bone, classic sort of military herring bone. All 1590 01:37:34.680 --> 01:37:39.800 the guys in the pickup trucks jump out and disappear, 1591 01:37:40.399 --> 01:37:43.479 and I'm like asking thhost. I'm like, what's going on. 1592 01:37:44.000 --> 01:37:48.319 He's like, Baba, John, don't worry. I'm like, yeah, okay, 1593 01:37:48.319 --> 01:37:51.680 but you know, I'm kind of worried. He's like, no, 1594 01:37:51.800 --> 01:37:54.880 don't worry. And all of a sudden, like in a 1595 01:37:55.000 --> 01:37:58.239 very short amount of time, all these guys come running 1596 01:37:58.359 --> 01:38:02.279 back into their truck. They come to our truck and 1597 01:38:02.319 --> 01:38:05.840 they start handing us melons and those some goes we 1598 01:38:05.920 --> 01:38:09.000 always stop here. This is the best the whole region. 1599 01:38:10.039 --> 01:38:14.199 And I was like, okay, you know, I guess you 1600 01:38:14.239 --> 01:38:18.479 know what, what the hell? But the last, of course, 1601 01:38:18.479 --> 01:38:26.159 the last big UH problem was UH was well, there's 1602 01:38:26.199 --> 01:38:30.479 two problems. There was There was UH some goan which 1603 01:38:30.640 --> 01:38:35.000 still had a Taliban in it, and Kundus. So Alex 1604 01:38:35.119 --> 01:38:39.000 took a team to Smogan and started working on the 1605 01:38:39.039 --> 01:38:44.279 distribution of resources money, guns, bullets and bring it in 1606 01:38:44.319 --> 01:38:49.479 an oda there and Kundu's was supposed to be well, 1607 01:38:49.640 --> 01:38:54.720 you know the problem was that dostm and Ata had 1608 01:38:54.760 --> 01:38:58.880 been convinced by Mulla Fozzle, the head Taliban guy that 1609 01:39:00.319 --> 01:39:03.760 the Taliban wanted to surrender, but if they didn't accept, 1610 01:39:03.840 --> 01:39:06.760 if if most of them Anata didn't accept the surrender, 1611 01:39:07.520 --> 01:39:09.359 then they were going to have to fight house to house. 1612 01:39:09.520 --> 01:39:12.039 And he said, neither one of you guys wants to 1613 01:39:12.079 --> 01:39:18.560 be the butcher of Kundus. Well, okay, so, uh, none 1614 01:39:18.600 --> 01:39:20.800 of us, not none of us Americans were all that 1615 01:39:20.880 --> 01:39:24.720 excited about any of this. But you know, it's it's 1616 01:39:24.800 --> 01:39:29.520 exactly what Lawrence said, right, it's better for the locals 1617 01:39:29.880 --> 01:39:33.399 to do what they do, you know, it's it's it's. 1618 01:39:33.359 --> 01:39:36.039 You know, for you to do it for them exactly. 1619 01:39:36.119 --> 01:39:38.840 So we're like, you know, what are we going to do? 1620 01:39:39.079 --> 01:39:43.159 I mean, we can't, uh, we can't. We don't have 1621 01:39:43.199 --> 01:39:46.680 an invasion for us. Right, We've got ODA five nine five, 1622 01:39:46.800 --> 01:39:49.800 We've got O d A five three four, and the 1623 01:39:50.119 --> 01:39:55.119 commanders that they're working with they want to arrange, you know, 1624 01:39:55.239 --> 01:39:56.239 go with the surrender. 1625 01:39:57.439 --> 01:39:59.000 Well, you know, both. 1626 01:39:58.800 --> 01:40:04.439 Doug Stanton and and Toby's books talk in detail about 1627 01:40:04.600 --> 01:40:09.279 the fact that it was a completely false surrender, and. 1628 01:40:10.720 --> 01:40:11.319 It was. 1629 01:40:12.960 --> 01:40:15.760 I mean from the standpoint, I mean it was horrible. 1630 01:40:16.079 --> 01:40:20.960 I lost a man, Afghan's lost some of our closest allies. 1631 01:40:21.520 --> 01:40:25.399 Dave almost was killed. We were almost killed out in 1632 01:40:25.479 --> 01:40:28.600 Kundu's because it was at ambush there too, though we 1633 01:40:28.640 --> 01:40:31.600 had AC one thirties on our side. So it didn't work, 1634 01:40:31.640 --> 01:40:33.319 you know, it didn't work out so well for the Taliban. 1635 01:40:33.680 --> 01:40:37.319 But the point is that, whether you like it or not, 1636 01:40:38.680 --> 01:40:45.399 it was an exceptionally sophisticated deception operation because they had 1637 01:40:45.560 --> 01:40:49.239 convinced the two major you know. 1638 01:40:49.159 --> 01:40:51.840 Afghan allies to. 1639 01:40:53.399 --> 01:40:55.680 Drive right into a trap that was going to kill 1640 01:40:55.760 --> 01:40:58.520 him right and would have killed him if it hadn't 1641 01:40:58.520 --> 01:41:01.119 been for AC one thirties and the fact. 1642 01:41:00.840 --> 01:41:04.560 That we had you know, we had the UH at 1643 01:41:04.560 --> 01:41:05.399 that point. 1644 01:41:05.560 --> 01:41:08.840 It was Max Bauers who was the battalion commander for 1645 01:41:08.960 --> 01:41:13.600 these guys, and UH Sergeant Major v Hill, Mario ve 1646 01:41:13.720 --> 01:41:18.399 Hill and their coms network with the authority to call 1647 01:41:18.439 --> 01:41:21.239 in airpower like right away. 1648 01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:24.439 Otherwise you wouldn't be talking to me today. 1649 01:41:24.920 --> 01:41:27.159 We still would have won the battle, but I'd be dead, 1650 01:41:27.640 --> 01:41:32.319 no question in my mind about that. And uh so 1651 01:41:33.560 --> 01:41:36.159 that's what happened. I mean, you know again, I would 1652 01:41:36.600 --> 01:41:41.520 point your your uh your listeners to reading either one 1653 01:41:41.560 --> 01:41:44.760 of those books because they go into significant detail about 1654 01:41:44.920 --> 01:41:48.960 about that, and it's it's a tough story to read 1655 01:41:49.079 --> 01:41:50.920 and it's not a great story to talk about. 1656 01:41:51.439 --> 01:41:51.800 Yeah. 1657 01:41:51.880 --> 01:41:55.319 Yeah, when we talked to both Toby and Justin, I 1658 01:41:55.359 --> 01:41:58.239 think that really came through about like SPAN's death and 1659 01:41:58.359 --> 01:42:00.600 just what a horrible day that was. 1660 01:42:02.319 --> 01:42:07.680 Yeah, and you know, I mean I so, Uh, Scottie 1661 01:42:07.680 --> 01:42:11.119 and I made it back for day two of that operation, 1662 01:42:12.000 --> 01:42:15.239 and Uh and Alex drove up from Sammagan. 1663 01:42:15.439 --> 01:42:17.159 So Alex and I went. 1664 01:42:17.119 --> 01:42:21.199 Were in the fort when Mark Mitchell the night that 1665 01:42:21.239 --> 01:42:25.119 Mark Mitchell won his Distinguished Service Cross with the with 1666 01:42:25.239 --> 01:42:29.800 the team. It was a pretty spooky thing. The Taliban, 1667 01:42:30.039 --> 01:42:32.199 or it wasn't Taliban, it was the al Qaeda guys. 1668 01:42:32.520 --> 01:42:36.279 We're using all of the resources that were available. I 1669 01:42:36.359 --> 01:42:41.800 had never really thought that you could direct fire direct 1670 01:42:41.960 --> 01:42:45.840 lay a one twenty two rocket, but I guarantee you 1671 01:42:46.479 --> 01:42:48.840 it was either that or they were using explosives to 1672 01:42:48.880 --> 01:42:51.920 send telephone polls over my head. I'm not sure which 1673 01:42:51.920 --> 01:42:56.279 it was. Either way, it was pretty scary. Yeah, but 1674 01:42:56.680 --> 01:42:59.239 you know again, AC one thirties won out the day 1675 01:42:59.560 --> 01:43:02.399 and the Air Force saved our lives. 1676 01:43:04.159 --> 01:43:06.039 Could you tell us a little bit more about like 1677 01:43:06.119 --> 01:43:09.880 how that came about well. 1678 01:43:09.720 --> 01:43:13.560 Okay, So so I get back to Scotty and I 1679 01:43:13.720 --> 01:43:18.359 came back from Kundu's. The guys who had been in 1680 01:43:18.439 --> 01:43:21.920 the fort that day, to include the SBS team had 1681 01:43:22.199 --> 01:43:25.800 were all coming back rolling in. They they well, they 1682 01:43:25.840 --> 01:43:28.920 looked exactly like what they were. They had been buried 1683 01:43:28.960 --> 01:43:33.159 alive because the Jadam had hit the fort and buried 1684 01:43:33.199 --> 01:43:36.920 him alive. They dug their way out, and they were 1685 01:43:36.960 --> 01:43:38.600 coming back trying to figure out what they were going 1686 01:43:38.640 --> 01:43:44.359 to do. And the the part of the fortress that 1687 01:43:44.560 --> 01:43:52.199 overlooked that truly overlooked where the where the the the 1688 01:43:52.279 --> 01:43:55.640 al Qaeda guys were was not where they had been, 1689 01:43:56.079 --> 01:43:58.880 and they didn't know quite how they were going to 1690 01:43:58.960 --> 01:44:04.239 get in there. And uh so Alex and I gotten 1691 01:44:04.279 --> 01:44:09.560 a jeep uh and drove over there and we you know, 1692 01:44:09.720 --> 01:44:12.840 shouted from the from the ramparts, Hey, we want to 1693 01:44:12.880 --> 01:44:15.159 come up, and they said, come on up. So we 1694 01:44:15.279 --> 01:44:19.640 climbed up the ramparts, went through a drainage hole and 1695 01:44:19.760 --> 01:44:23.479 came up to where our Afghan allies were. And I mean, 1696 01:44:23.520 --> 01:44:25.720 these are the same allies we've been with now for 1697 01:44:25.960 --> 01:44:28.920 six weeks. So they were all like, hey, Baba John, 1698 01:44:29.039 --> 01:44:34.000 good to see you. You know, bullets flying everywhere, and uh, 1699 01:44:34.239 --> 01:44:38.039 I'm like, okay, here's the deal. Uh, you know, if 1700 01:44:38.079 --> 01:44:41.840 you can hold these guys in place tonight, we're going 1701 01:44:41.920 --> 01:44:46.560 to bring in airpower. And they were like, absolutely, we 1702 01:44:46.600 --> 01:44:50.119 can hold these guys inside these walls. And they'd already 1703 01:44:50.119 --> 01:44:52.560 seen what airpower did, so you know it was they 1704 01:44:52.600 --> 01:44:56.159 were like, come on back. So then we you know, 1705 01:44:56.560 --> 01:44:58.840 climb over the walls, down through the drain pipe, up 1706 01:44:58.920 --> 01:45:01.399 you know again, jump the jump in the jeep, go 1707 01:45:01.520 --> 01:45:07.199 back to where everybody was set up and Mark and 1708 01:45:07.520 --> 01:45:14.800 a combat controller and one other guy. Then about nine 1709 01:45:14.840 --> 01:45:18.720 o'clock that night, we loaded the jeep back through you know, 1710 01:45:19.039 --> 01:45:21.520 same story, right up the walls, through the drain pipe, 1711 01:45:21.560 --> 01:45:25.880 up were the walls, and in and tell the commander, okay, 1712 01:45:26.359 --> 01:45:30.159 we're going to start bringing in airpower. And he was 1713 01:45:30.239 --> 01:45:34.600 like that's good because they found mortars. And just about 1714 01:45:34.600 --> 01:45:38.279 the time he got mortars out of his mouth, round 1715 01:45:38.399 --> 01:45:44.239 started landing on the parapet around us, and we were like, well, 1716 01:45:44.239 --> 01:45:47.039 that ain't good. I've seen good before, and that ain't it. 1717 01:45:47.760 --> 01:45:51.159 And I turned to Alex and said, you know, Alex, 1718 01:45:51.680 --> 01:45:54.479 I don't have my ranger tab the high under. I 1719 01:45:54.479 --> 01:45:56.520 mean if I did, I wouldn't be worried. But I 1720 01:45:56.560 --> 01:45:58.960 don't have it with me. So he was like, yeah, 1721 01:45:58.960 --> 01:46:00.800 I don't have my sf TA with me either, So 1722 01:46:01.479 --> 01:46:05.920 you know, we'll just we'll just stick here. And you know, 1723 01:46:06.000 --> 01:46:08.760 it's really up the Mark at this point and the 1724 01:46:08.800 --> 01:46:11.680 combat controller to do the job. I mean, there's no 1725 01:46:11.880 --> 01:46:14.840 sense in. I mean, we couldn't see the bad guys. 1726 01:46:15.279 --> 01:46:16.880 They could see us well, I mean we could have 1727 01:46:16.920 --> 01:46:19.399 gotten stood up on a paraprit shot our aks. 1728 01:46:19.439 --> 01:46:23.880 But like, why so Mark called. 1729 01:46:23.520 --> 01:46:29.880 In the the AC thirties they made two runs. This 1730 01:46:29.960 --> 01:46:32.079 is about the same time that the guys are shooting 1731 01:46:32.079 --> 01:46:34.880 mortars at us and the one twenty two's and just 1732 01:46:34.920 --> 01:46:37.119 about anything they could find. They were doing direct lay 1733 01:46:37.119 --> 01:46:37.960 on us. 1734 01:46:39.279 --> 01:46:40.479 And finally I. 1735 01:46:40.520 --> 01:46:45.920 Remember Mark talking to the aircraft and saying, guys, I 1736 01:46:45.960 --> 01:46:48.159 know you have to rotate back through right. 1737 01:46:48.199 --> 01:46:48.439 You do. 1738 01:46:48.960 --> 01:46:53.600 You're doing your rotation because the all the guns are 1739 01:46:53.600 --> 01:46:56.079 on the left side of the aircraft. But you just 1740 01:46:56.119 --> 01:46:59.119 need to know you need to finish this this time 1741 01:46:59.159 --> 01:47:02.560 because the last couple of rounds, mortar rounds are only 1742 01:47:02.680 --> 01:47:06.479 landed about like fifty meters from us. They've got they're 1743 01:47:06.640 --> 01:47:10.000 walking the mortars in on us. Now, I didn't hear 1744 01:47:10.039 --> 01:47:11.640 what Mark. I mean, I heard what Mark said. I 1745 01:47:11.640 --> 01:47:15.199 don't know what the Air Force guy said, but absolutely 1746 01:47:15.239 --> 01:47:20.560 they came roaring in. And for those of you who 1747 01:47:20.680 --> 01:47:26.680 remember it, if you've ever seen the final scene from 1748 01:47:26.800 --> 01:47:30.319 Apocalypse now when the arc light comes in and the 1749 01:47:30.520 --> 01:47:35.279 entire sky turns orange, well, to this day, I don't 1750 01:47:35.319 --> 01:47:37.760 know what they hit. I think they hit the cheese 1751 01:47:37.880 --> 01:47:41.279 charges and then that kicked off all the other kind 1752 01:47:41.319 --> 01:47:42.920 of mortar rounds and everything else. 1753 01:47:43.119 --> 01:47:46.640 The entire the entire end of. 1754 01:47:46.720 --> 01:47:50.560 The fortress where the bad guys were just exploded into 1755 01:47:51.520 --> 01:47:55.600 into fire. So I turned to the Afghan commander and said, 1756 01:47:56.159 --> 01:47:59.079 you know, I think our work here is done. We're 1757 01:47:59.079 --> 01:48:02.520 going to go come back tomorrow, and I need to 1758 01:48:02.520 --> 01:48:06.840 find Mike. We still, I mean until, I mean, I 1759 01:48:07.079 --> 01:48:13.000 wasn't willing to say that Mike was Kia until we 1760 01:48:13.720 --> 01:48:17.159 knew he was Kia. Because Mike had been such a 1761 01:48:18.520 --> 01:48:21.960 power in so many different ways and so good at 1762 01:48:21.960 --> 01:48:24.800 what he did. I thought, even if he was wounded, 1763 01:48:25.479 --> 01:48:29.119 and he could have easily crawled into a space and hidden, 1764 01:48:29.520 --> 01:48:31.760 and then the guys would never have found him. 1765 01:48:32.199 --> 01:48:36.640 So until we actually found Mike's remains. I mean, I was. 1766 01:48:36.640 --> 01:48:41.880 Really committed to to hoping. Of course, you know now 1767 01:48:41.960 --> 01:48:45.279 we know from Dave's debrief and everything else, that didn't 1768 01:48:45.319 --> 01:48:50.039 work out that way. But anyhow, we left the next day. 1769 01:48:50.399 --> 01:48:52.840 The whole team now is crawling in because we think 1770 01:48:52.880 --> 01:48:55.359 we're just going to edit go into the fortress and 1771 01:48:56.680 --> 01:49:01.199 you know, do our post blast analysis. I would climb 1772 01:49:01.279 --> 01:49:04.079 into the fortress doing the same thing again, and the 1773 01:49:04.079 --> 01:49:07.840 commander goes, I say like, so, why aren't you down 1774 01:49:08.079 --> 01:49:12.000 in the area. He says, well, it turns out that 1775 01:49:12.239 --> 01:49:15.920 and then just as he said, you know that, you know, 1776 01:49:16.199 --> 01:49:19.199 two mortar rounds hit on the parapet again. He says, yep, 1777 01:49:19.399 --> 01:49:23.520 they're still firing mortars at us. I'm like, oh, great, 1778 01:49:24.039 --> 01:49:27.640 well it's daylight. And he said, yeah, we're going to 1779 01:49:27.720 --> 01:49:30.199 bring in We've got a we've got a t Sist two. 1780 01:49:30.359 --> 01:49:33.359 We're going to bring in a tank, and we've got 1781 01:49:33.479 --> 01:49:36.439 troops all along the parapet. We're just going to start 1782 01:49:36.479 --> 01:49:40.039 opening up on these guys. And and you know, it takes. 1783 01:49:40.199 --> 01:49:46.279 It took all that day and they still ended up, 1784 01:49:46.319 --> 01:49:48.600 you know, the guys, the al Kainda guys retreated into 1785 01:49:48.640 --> 01:49:51.960 the what's called the pink House, which was it was 1786 01:49:52.039 --> 01:49:57.520 pink and then what was really clever. I would never 1787 01:49:57.560 --> 01:50:00.520 have thought of this, but the Afghan thought of it. 1788 01:50:00.840 --> 01:50:04.680 They brought in a fire truck and started to flood 1789 01:50:04.720 --> 01:50:08.960 the Pink House. And remember this is November, late November, 1790 01:50:09.680 --> 01:50:14.479 it's cold at night, and by the next day the 1791 01:50:14.520 --> 01:50:19.279 guys were hypothermic. They were no longer combatants, and they 1792 01:50:19.279 --> 01:50:23.199 were pulled out of the pink House and grabbed. And 1793 01:50:23.640 --> 01:50:27.880 then by that time a good chunk of Dostom's team 1794 01:50:28.159 --> 01:50:32.119 were there. Dostom was still in Kundu's dealing with the 1795 01:50:32.159 --> 01:50:36.520 Afghans there, but they put him into trucks and they 1796 01:50:36.520 --> 01:50:41.600 took him to Sheppergun And that's basically the last of 1797 01:50:41.640 --> 01:50:46.119 the story, except when the medic in nine to five 1798 01:50:47.039 --> 01:50:53.359 identified John Walker Lynn. Then they brought him back to 1799 01:50:55.760 --> 01:50:59.560 actually to the Turker School where we were headquartered. I 1800 01:50:59.680 --> 01:51:04.800 made sure that my guys didn't didn't talk to or 1801 01:51:04.840 --> 01:51:08.800 do anything with Mike Span with John Walker Lynn for 1802 01:51:08.880 --> 01:51:10.920 two reasons. One, I was afraid they would do him 1803 01:51:10.920 --> 01:51:16.399 harm right, but more more importantly, having worked with the FBI, 1804 01:51:16.760 --> 01:51:20.760 I knew that if any of us were involved in 1805 01:51:20.800 --> 01:51:25.399 this at all, the defense team would immediately say that, 1806 01:51:25.640 --> 01:51:28.960 you know, we were somehow perfidious, and so. 1807 01:51:29.399 --> 01:51:30.359 We didn't do anything. 1808 01:51:31.439 --> 01:51:34.720 Admiral Kallan understood it as well, because he'd been you know, 1809 01:51:34.760 --> 01:51:37.239 Seal Team six commanders, so he'd had a lot of 1810 01:51:38.239 --> 01:51:43.239 work in this weird world of counter terrorism and criminal 1811 01:51:43.439 --> 01:51:47.920 enterprises all that, and so he just put guards on 1812 01:51:48.039 --> 01:51:51.800 the room that that John Walker Linn was there until 1813 01:51:51.880 --> 01:51:57.039 they could fly in from At that point, they flew 1814 01:51:57.119 --> 01:52:01.119 him in from Tashkent, some Army ce I D guys 1815 01:52:01.640 --> 01:52:04.359 and then the Army c I D guys matched up. 1816 01:52:04.359 --> 01:52:06.680 They also had some n CIS guys there, and they 1817 01:52:06.840 --> 01:52:08.880 put him on a bird and took him out of there, 1818 01:52:09.000 --> 01:52:11.720 and that was that was the last I saw them, Jr. 1819 01:52:13.000 --> 01:52:16.600 You know, the John Walker Lynn, the so called American 1820 01:52:16.640 --> 01:52:19.119 Taliban amazingly out of prison now. 1821 01:52:19.680 --> 01:52:23.359 Uh yeah, he's taken up some writing, a little bit 1822 01:52:23.359 --> 01:52:24.399 of writing, and. 1823 01:52:24.960 --> 01:52:27.800 Has accused the CIA and the Army of committing work 1824 01:52:27.880 --> 01:52:28.960 crimes out there. 1825 01:52:29.000 --> 01:52:31.079 And I'm just curious what you think. 1826 01:52:30.960 --> 01:52:34.039 Of of John Walker's account of how that went down 1827 01:52:34.119 --> 01:52:36.000 out there that those few days. 1828 01:52:36.640 --> 01:52:38.960 You know, I I honestly I haven't followed any of that. 1829 01:52:39.319 --> 01:52:43.359 I mean I'm sorry, I can't. I can't stomach the guy. Yeah, 1830 01:52:43.920 --> 01:52:46.359 you know, and uh, you know, the only thing that 1831 01:52:46.439 --> 01:52:47.760 I know about that guy. 1832 01:52:47.840 --> 01:52:49.359 Is after the fact. 1833 01:52:49.560 --> 01:52:51.920 I talked to some of the FBI guys who did 1834 01:52:51.920 --> 01:52:54.960 the initial interview with him, and they showed me some 1835 01:52:55.000 --> 01:52:58.520 pictures and they said, they showed me the pictures of 1836 01:52:58.640 --> 01:53:01.920 when he was first, you know, first brought out and 1837 01:53:02.039 --> 01:53:05.520 interviewed and he I think you've seen some of those 1838 01:53:05.520 --> 01:53:09.000 pictures because they've become part of the of the story. 1839 01:53:09.399 --> 01:53:13.520 But anyhow, like half of his face looks really dirty 1840 01:53:14.079 --> 01:53:17.560 and the other half looks sort of dirty. And the 1841 01:53:17.720 --> 01:53:22.279 FBI guys I talked to said, well, that's because that's 1842 01:53:22.319 --> 01:53:25.680 what happens when you you know, have a good stock 1843 01:53:25.720 --> 01:53:29.680 world on an AK forty seven and all that carbon 1844 01:53:29.840 --> 01:53:33.920 from those from those rounds start start, you know, comes out. 1845 01:53:33.960 --> 01:53:38.199 Because AK forty seven's for everybody who's ever fired one, 1846 01:53:38.359 --> 01:53:40.439 you know, they're sort of I mean, they're designed to 1847 01:53:40.479 --> 01:53:42.880 be loose so that they can be so that they 1848 01:53:42.880 --> 01:53:45.479 can be shot in any environment. That's why they are 1849 01:53:45.520 --> 01:53:51.640 so popular all over the world. But it was you know, 1850 01:53:51.800 --> 01:53:55.600 carbon from the so I have not followed John Walker 1851 01:53:55.640 --> 01:53:57.600 lint I mean, I'm sorry, I can't. I can't brain 1852 01:53:57.640 --> 01:54:00.600 myself to do it. I'm an old guy, the geezer. 1853 01:54:01.359 --> 01:54:06.399 Uh he he is a trader, uh the end, you know. 1854 01:54:06.520 --> 01:54:09.239 I mean, I'm not going to judge anything else about him, 1855 01:54:09.319 --> 01:54:12.199 And what he wants to talk about now is between 1856 01:54:12.279 --> 01:54:15.279 him and he's a he's a mom, so it's between 1857 01:54:15.319 --> 01:54:16.479 him and his god, you know. 1858 01:54:17.319 --> 01:54:25.199 Really fair enough j R. 1859 01:54:26.319 --> 01:54:31.880 But on a saturer note, how how did you guys 1860 01:54:31.920 --> 01:54:37.840 get our resolution on on Mike's span and evacuate his remains? 1861 01:54:38.359 --> 01:54:41.159 Well, we we went in, I mean after that, after 1862 01:54:41.239 --> 01:54:44.159 the the guys had been pushed into the pink house, 1863 01:54:44.960 --> 01:54:48.279 but before they were pulled out, we walked at the 1864 01:54:48.279 --> 01:54:52.119 the Afghans. Of course, you know, see a good chunk 1865 01:54:52.159 --> 01:54:55.239 of the of the folks who were who were actually 1866 01:54:55.279 --> 01:55:00.479 the fighters are fighters on the ramparts were Shia, right, 1867 01:55:00.560 --> 01:55:02.920 they were because it was the Shia that had been 1868 01:55:03.760 --> 01:55:07.159 had had well Bazaars Reef was a Shia talent before 1869 01:55:07.159 --> 01:55:10.560 the Taliban took over. So they were always the guys, 1870 01:55:10.600 --> 01:55:13.720 and they knew Mike very very well. Mike had been 1871 01:55:14.239 --> 01:55:19.600 Mike and Justin and Mark had been our focal points 1872 01:55:19.640 --> 01:55:23.359 with the with the Shia resistance and then with the 1873 01:55:23.359 --> 01:55:29.520 Shia when we started to rebuild. So they went in 1874 01:55:30.800 --> 01:55:36.359 on their own, found him UH and brought him out 1875 01:55:36.399 --> 01:55:39.840 in a stretcher, and so we didn't have to go 1876 01:55:39.920 --> 01:55:43.199 searching for him. They had already brought him right out 1877 01:55:43.640 --> 01:55:47.520 to the entrance of where the big gun fight had 1878 01:55:47.560 --> 01:55:54.600 taken place. And UH then we UH recovered Mike. We 1879 01:55:54.680 --> 01:56:00.359 had a you know, a classic American UH uh bag 1880 01:56:00.439 --> 01:56:03.680 that put him in, brought his remains to the UH, 1881 01:56:05.399 --> 01:56:09.800 brought his remains to the the Turker School, put him 1882 01:56:09.920 --> 01:56:14.520 in a space where we could do a quiet time 1883 01:56:14.560 --> 01:56:19.840 with him. And then that night half the team UH 1884 01:56:20.840 --> 01:56:23.479 loaded up with Mike's remains, loaded up and do a 1885 01:56:23.600 --> 01:56:27.920 C forty seven and flew back to Kku. 1886 01:56:28.039 --> 01:56:31.439 Z Alex was on that. 1887 01:56:31.840 --> 01:56:34.960 You know why half the team well, you know we 1888 01:56:35.119 --> 01:56:38.920 had not been we had you know, we hadn't been relieved. 1889 01:56:39.520 --> 01:56:43.880 We were still doing stuff across the board. So it 1890 01:56:44.039 --> 01:56:49.119 was half the team needed to go because half, I mean, 1891 01:56:49.279 --> 01:56:53.520 Mike was buried, buried before I even got back to Konis. 1892 01:56:54.039 --> 01:57:00.359 But we needed half the team needed to stay to 1893 01:57:00.359 --> 01:57:02.880 continue to work the stuff that we were doing, which 1894 01:57:03.000 --> 01:57:10.199 was building something resembling a legitimate not government exactly, but 1895 01:57:10.399 --> 01:57:14.000 at least in a legitimate order, and also hunting down 1896 01:57:14.039 --> 01:57:17.079 the last of the Taliban and the al Qaida guys 1897 01:57:17.640 --> 01:57:20.479 who were now on the run in samagan. 1898 01:57:21.840 --> 01:57:21.960 Jar. 1899 01:57:22.159 --> 01:57:23.159 How when you. 1900 01:57:23.079 --> 01:57:26.439 Talk about like building not the legitimate governmentybe a legitimate 1901 01:57:26.439 --> 01:57:27.319 coalition or whatever. 1902 01:57:27.960 --> 01:57:29.239 How tough was that? 1903 01:57:29.399 --> 01:57:34.600 Because even though these warlargs like Dustom and that they 1904 01:57:34.640 --> 01:57:39.239 were fighting the Taliban, they they were all there wasn't 1905 01:57:39.279 --> 01:57:42.199 like a national identity for them. They were also fighting 1906 01:57:42.199 --> 01:57:44.800 for themselves and would just as easily turn on each 1907 01:57:44.840 --> 01:57:46.960 other if they thought they could get away with it. 1908 01:57:47.319 --> 01:57:48.800 How was that for you? 1909 01:57:49.039 --> 01:57:53.720 Trying to orchestrate that or manage manage those relationships. 1910 01:57:54.479 --> 01:57:56.399 It was something that of course, you know, this goes 1911 01:57:56.439 --> 01:57:59.159 back to experience in the eighties, right. I learned a 1912 01:57:59.199 --> 01:58:01.840 long time ago that there comes a point in time 1913 01:58:01.880 --> 01:58:04.439 where you can't you can you need to be polite, 1914 01:58:05.119 --> 01:58:06.760 but you need to draw a line in the sand. 1915 01:58:07.600 --> 01:58:11.079 And I made it pretty clear to the guys early on, actually, 1916 01:58:11.319 --> 01:58:14.319 uh well before we had entered Massaari Shrief. Let's just 1917 01:58:14.319 --> 01:58:22.840 say that if they didn't cooperate, we were all going home. 1918 01:58:24.119 --> 01:58:28.479 There'd be no more money, no more guns, no more odas, 1919 01:58:29.039 --> 01:58:32.880 no more anything. And then if so, you know, and 1920 01:58:33.079 --> 01:58:35.720 if that was what they were they were committed to do. 1921 01:58:36.239 --> 01:58:37.680 We weren't going to get in the way of it, 1922 01:58:37.920 --> 01:58:40.840 but we certainly weren't going to help them, and so 1923 01:58:43.000 --> 01:58:45.520 they took it to heart. I mean, they didn't have to, 1924 01:58:46.119 --> 01:58:47.760 I get. I mean, I don't know if I was 1925 01:58:48.680 --> 01:58:53.520 uh blunt or if I was you know, just looked 1926 01:58:53.560 --> 01:58:56.960 sincere or what. But it was like one on one 1927 01:58:57.000 --> 01:59:00.960 with these guys. Uh. I've had guys in the past 1928 01:59:01.000 --> 01:59:03.319 when I was doing this. I mean say, you know, 1929 01:59:03.840 --> 01:59:06.760 really with just like you're surrounded by bad guys and 1930 01:59:06.800 --> 01:59:09.319 you're saying it like it's our job. 1931 01:59:09.520 --> 01:59:10.760 It's what we do. 1932 01:59:11.000 --> 01:59:14.680 Right, it's all you have too, Yeah, well it is. 1933 01:59:15.000 --> 01:59:17.199 And it's not like they're going to kill me because 1934 01:59:17.239 --> 01:59:20.920 that would also you know, and and the relationship. So 1935 01:59:21.479 --> 01:59:24.880 they could grumble about it, but they had seen what 1936 01:59:25.840 --> 01:59:30.800 was what was successful now, you know is and what 1937 01:59:30.840 --> 01:59:33.000 we said right up front was look at once, we're 1938 01:59:33.159 --> 01:59:34.199 once the talibant. 1939 01:59:34.279 --> 01:59:35.439 We're only here to. 1940 01:59:35.479 --> 01:59:38.479 Get these guys out of here. It's really up to 1941 01:59:38.560 --> 01:59:41.439 you to figure out what you're going to do next. 1942 01:59:42.239 --> 01:59:44.319 And uh, you know. 1943 01:59:46.479 --> 01:59:49.680 My own I mean, I've only done Afghanistan Afghan since 1944 01:59:49.880 --> 01:59:52.039 nineteen eighty six, so I'm not going to pretend that 1945 01:59:52.119 --> 01:59:56.119 I am like a real you know, cultural expert, like 1946 01:59:56.199 --> 01:59:58.960 you know, from Harvard or Yale, because I'm just a 1947 01:59:59.039 --> 02:00:01.960 kid who, you know, blue collar kid who just lived 1948 02:00:01.960 --> 02:00:03.359 with these guys for years. 1949 02:00:03.600 --> 02:00:06.479 But there is no such thing as an Afghan. 1950 02:00:06.720 --> 02:00:11.079 Right right, There's there's absolutely no such thing as an Afghan. 1951 02:00:11.399 --> 02:00:13.520 The only Afghan I ever. 1952 02:00:13.439 --> 02:00:19.800 Met was Amarula Salid, who was, you know, the last 1953 02:00:19.880 --> 02:00:22.680 vice president of Kalb but before that, he was the 1954 02:00:22.720 --> 02:00:27.720 head of the National Defense you know, the the. 1955 02:00:26.399 --> 02:00:27.800 National Directorate of Security. 1956 02:00:28.239 --> 02:00:32.279 And before that he was one of of Masud's guys. 1957 02:00:32.479 --> 02:00:34.640 I mean, he was actually a very close to Maud 1958 02:00:35.119 --> 02:00:37.560 and was one of the guys that traveled with Masoud 1959 02:00:37.600 --> 02:00:40.239 when Maud was going back and forth between the Panshir 1960 02:00:40.279 --> 02:00:44.720 and dou Chambay. To me, folks, he's the only Afghan 1961 02:00:44.760 --> 02:00:47.880 I ever met who was an Afghan. All the rest 1962 02:00:47.880 --> 02:00:50.800 of them, all of the rest of them are tadjiks 1963 02:00:51.000 --> 02:00:55.039 Uzbek's Hazara push tunes and there's two different I mean 1964 02:00:55.359 --> 02:00:57.760 and that you know, people say push things but you 1965 02:00:57.800 --> 02:01:02.000 know the truth is that the push dune of let's say, 1966 02:01:02.479 --> 02:01:07.119 Jalalabad can barely understand what the push dudents in Condahar say, 1967 02:01:07.560 --> 02:01:10.279 and neither one of them can understand what the push 1968 02:01:10.359 --> 02:01:13.920 dudents from Memors say. I mean, it's not a country. 1969 02:01:15.560 --> 02:01:18.840 National geographics done, the maps. You know, they had a flag, 1970 02:01:19.399 --> 02:01:22.279 and so by definition Americans think that they're a country. 1971 02:01:22.359 --> 02:01:27.279 But you know, they are neither a nation. Oh they 1972 02:01:27.279 --> 02:01:30.000 were a state certainly, but they were not a nation state, right, 1973 02:01:30.319 --> 02:01:34.279 and the folks in the north nor I mean, remember 1974 02:01:34.720 --> 02:01:38.920 when the winter comes, you can't drive from Kabble to 1975 02:01:38.960 --> 02:01:43.119 Missouri Shrief, right, the roads are closed. There's no way 1976 02:01:43.119 --> 02:01:46.239 to get through the Hindu kush. Even today they have 1977 02:01:46.279 --> 02:01:50.840 to fly. So what we had to do was convince 1978 02:01:50.920 --> 02:01:56.319 all these guys that, regardless of what they thought of 1979 02:01:56.359 --> 02:01:59.640 each other, and they didn't like each other, that's for sure, right, 1980 02:02:01.159 --> 02:02:05.920 that that they needed to collaborate, cooperate if they wanted 1981 02:02:06.079 --> 02:02:06.960 the country back. 1982 02:02:07.880 --> 02:02:08.640 And they did. 1983 02:02:08.880 --> 02:02:12.159 I mean, I don't just because they grumbled doesn't mean 1984 02:02:12.159 --> 02:02:14.680 that they didn't do their job. They did their job 1985 02:02:15.319 --> 02:02:19.479 in ways that were you know, exactly what you could 1986 02:02:19.479 --> 02:02:20.039 have asked for. 1987 02:02:20.359 --> 02:02:24.640 Right, What was the next phase for Alpha Team after 1988 02:02:25.039 --> 02:02:28.279 that whole incident, after Mike's band's death and resolving the 1989 02:02:28.279 --> 02:02:31.479 situation at the prison. I mean, as you said, you 1990 02:02:31.520 --> 02:02:33.720 were continuing to do things. The mission wasn't over. So 1991 02:02:33.800 --> 02:02:35.039 what was the next step. 1992 02:02:36.199 --> 02:02:38.560 Well, the next step was to you know, to build 1993 02:02:39.119 --> 02:02:42.800 to work with all three of our Afghan allies to 1994 02:02:42.840 --> 02:02:47.560 make sure that there weren't Taliban, uh, you know they 1995 02:02:48.000 --> 02:02:50.239 I guess the only term I could think of is 1996 02:02:50.239 --> 02:02:52.399 is a term from you know, from World War Two. 1997 02:02:52.439 --> 02:02:54.279 We wanted to make sure there were no war wolves 1998 02:02:54.439 --> 02:02:57.680 out there, right, that not everybody was worried in forty 1999 02:02:57.680 --> 02:03:00.560 five that there were Nazi war wolves out there hiding out, 2000 02:03:00.640 --> 02:03:01.680 just waiting to come. 2001 02:03:03.079 --> 02:03:07.439 So we did that. We Uh, we were involved with. 2002 02:03:07.479 --> 02:03:10.880 The ODA that was down in Salmangan, working with us 2003 02:03:10.920 --> 02:03:13.520 Mailei's totally different culture as well. 2004 02:03:14.279 --> 02:03:19.239 Uh. And then that you know, for me, my job. 2005 02:03:19.119 --> 02:03:24.279 Towards the end was to be sort of uh the 2006 02:03:24.439 --> 02:03:28.399 intelligence diplomat. I worked a lot with Admiral Kaland as 2007 02:03:28.399 --> 02:03:31.439 we built airfields, and we worked with the commanders trying, 2008 02:03:31.840 --> 02:03:34.399 you know, the three leaders to try and make sure 2009 02:03:34.439 --> 02:03:38.239 that they continue to collaborate and cooperate, dividing up the city. 2010 02:03:39.000 --> 02:03:41.720 How you do police work, you know, I mean I 2011 02:03:41.720 --> 02:03:44.880 don't mean like a police force, but you know, making 2012 02:03:44.920 --> 02:03:49.560 sure that there aren't checkpoints that are hostils with each 2013 02:03:49.560 --> 02:03:54.119 other across the town, all that stuff. And then you know, 2014 02:03:54.239 --> 02:03:58.239 our allies started to roll in and uh so, I 2015 02:03:58.279 --> 02:04:00.800 mean we had lots of ally guys already. I mean 2016 02:04:00.800 --> 02:04:04.079 the Brits were our shoulder to shoulder with us, but 2017 02:04:04.159 --> 02:04:08.000 I mean the the other allies, the Jordanians, special forces 2018 02:04:08.000 --> 02:04:12.760 came in, the French aviation folks started to come in. 2019 02:04:13.800 --> 02:04:18.159 Eventually Christmasare Schrief was was run by a German unit. 2020 02:04:18.960 --> 02:04:24.359 Uh So that at the very end the job was 2021 02:04:24.479 --> 02:04:27.640 just there were there were five of us left, and 2022 02:04:28.000 --> 02:04:31.920 uh the five of us carved up every day a 2023 02:04:31.960 --> 02:04:34.720 little piece here, a little piece there, trying to do 2024 02:04:34.920 --> 02:04:38.199 all of those things until we were relieved in place 2025 02:04:38.359 --> 02:04:42.079 in the mid in mid December, and you know, did 2026 02:04:42.079 --> 02:04:46.920 the did the handshakes with our the really the new team, 2027 02:04:47.680 --> 02:04:50.439 and introduced them to all the other, you know, the 2028 02:04:50.520 --> 02:04:52.439 guys that we've been working with all this time. And 2029 02:04:52.479 --> 02:04:59.079 then we boarded a an agency uh twin otter and 2030 02:04:59.560 --> 02:05:03.840 left CA or left Bazaars Reef and headed back to Kkuz. 2031 02:05:04.840 --> 02:05:07.520 And you had a few more years left at the 2032 02:05:07.560 --> 02:05:11.039 CIA before retiring in two thousand and seven. I believe 2033 02:05:11.079 --> 02:05:15.319 you finished as the Deputy of Operations of CTC. 2034 02:05:16.399 --> 02:05:18.439 No, well, I mean I did. 2035 02:05:18.560 --> 02:05:21.720 I mean, first of all, you know that wasn't my 2036 02:05:21.800 --> 02:05:24.760 last trip to call, right, I mean or Afghanistan. I 2037 02:05:24.800 --> 02:05:28.000 made like five different trips TV wise for lots of 2038 02:05:28.000 --> 02:05:32.279 different kinds of projects over time as we worked with 2039 02:05:32.359 --> 02:05:32.760 the station. 2040 02:05:33.119 --> 02:05:34.600 Now by that time the station set up. 2041 02:05:34.640 --> 02:05:39.279 It's a big station, but there were certain things that cooperation, collaborations, 2042 02:05:39.319 --> 02:05:40.039 some other stuff. 2043 02:05:40.039 --> 02:05:42.520 There's some training that I was involved with. 2044 02:05:45.600 --> 02:05:52.239 After in two thousand and four, I was pulled back 2045 02:05:52.279 --> 02:05:56.000 to headquarters after seventeen years kicking and screaming, but orders 2046 02:05:56.079 --> 02:05:58.880 or orders, and I went back into the basement. Of course, 2047 02:05:59.079 --> 02:06:02.279 it only goes I was. I was given an office 2048 02:06:02.279 --> 02:06:05.359 in the basement to do some other stuff that was 2049 02:06:05.479 --> 02:06:08.399 nothing to do with Afghanistan. And then I ended up 2050 02:06:08.479 --> 02:06:13.600 as a h the chief of ops for a geographic 2051 02:06:13.640 --> 02:06:18.039 division for about six months and then I got promoted. 2052 02:06:18.159 --> 02:06:22.720 Shocked everybody myself included, and I got grabbed up to 2053 02:06:22.760 --> 02:06:25.840 go to CTC CGC is a big place, right, I 2054 02:06:25.840 --> 02:06:28.840 mean there were at that point in time, there's over 2055 02:06:29.239 --> 02:06:30.760 not quite four thousand. 2056 02:06:30.479 --> 02:06:33.600 People in the CTC mix. 2057 02:06:33.680 --> 02:06:35.640 Now, that doesn't mean that there were four thousand people 2058 02:06:35.640 --> 02:06:38.800 working in headquarters. There are four thousand people doing the 2059 02:06:38.840 --> 02:06:43.039 CTC mission. Are you still there? 2060 02:06:43.199 --> 02:06:46.520 Yeah? That you lose you okay, yeah, okay. 2061 02:06:46.560 --> 02:06:51.479 So anyhow, the operations office, so I was I was 2062 02:06:52.039 --> 02:06:56.359 one of the two deputy chiefs of operations, and then 2063 02:06:56.399 --> 02:06:59.079 we had a chief of Operations and he had a 2064 02:06:59.079 --> 02:07:03.119 deputy So I was partnered with Doug Wise. So Doug 2065 02:07:03.159 --> 02:07:06.600 and I, uh split And you've had Doug on on 2066 02:07:06.600 --> 02:07:08.840 on the on the on the podcast. 2067 02:07:08.840 --> 02:07:10.680 He's coming back in a few weeks. 2068 02:07:10.920 --> 02:07:11.039 Uh. 2069 02:07:11.119 --> 02:07:13.600 We got on scheduled for the twenty second. 2070 02:07:13.439 --> 02:07:16.920 Yeah, excellent. 2071 02:07:17.039 --> 02:07:20.119 Well, anyhow, he and I divided up the day to 2072 02:07:20.239 --> 02:07:24.920 day management of CTC in half. So, uh, I ended 2073 02:07:25.000 --> 02:07:27.279 up with a you know, a bunch of different parts 2074 02:07:27.399 --> 02:07:33.399 of CTC and then the the Uh, the CTC director 2075 02:07:34.239 --> 02:07:41.079 wanted to have a a syops program, a robust syops 2076 02:07:41.119 --> 02:07:44.199 program going after countering violent extremism. 2077 02:07:45.159 --> 02:07:45.560 Uh. 2078 02:07:45.600 --> 02:07:49.000 So I wanted to call it the you know, political 2079 02:07:49.000 --> 02:07:49.920 warfare Department. 2080 02:07:50.239 --> 02:07:54.199 No, that wasn't going to work. That sounded too political. 2081 02:07:54.760 --> 02:07:59.960 Uh So we ended up calling it the Strategic Communications Department, 2082 02:08:00.119 --> 02:08:03.439 and I was listed just so I could go over 2083 02:08:03.479 --> 02:08:05.640 the State and not be laughed out of a building. 2084 02:08:06.000 --> 02:08:11.520 They listed me as a deputy director of CTC for 2085 02:08:11.560 --> 02:08:16.560 Strategic Communications. So I spent the tail end of the 2086 02:08:16.640 --> 02:08:22.119 last eighteen months of my career managing teams that were 2087 02:08:22.159 --> 02:08:25.720 all over the world. Is again kind of, you know, 2088 02:08:25.760 --> 02:08:28.159 the same sort of story over and over again that 2089 02:08:28.279 --> 02:08:32.760 were working on what is what would have been called 2090 02:08:32.880 --> 02:08:37.680 in the old OSS days black propaganda, and you know, 2091 02:08:37.760 --> 02:08:42.000 and black propaganda is designed to undermine the morale of 2092 02:08:42.079 --> 02:08:47.960 the bad guys, as opposed to psyops or strategic communications 2093 02:08:48.000 --> 02:08:51.800 that the military and the State Department were doing, which 2094 02:08:52.000 --> 02:08:55.119 was to bring guys onto our side, right, to convince 2095 02:08:55.159 --> 02:08:57.159 people on our side. 2096 02:08:56.880 --> 02:08:59.880 And also that the bad guys don't know where they 2097 02:09:00.079 --> 02:09:02.720 information is coming from, as opposed to like say the 2098 02:09:02.760 --> 02:09:05.479 Broadcasting Board of Governors, where it's very clearly coming from 2099 02:09:05.520 --> 02:09:06.359 the United States. 2100 02:09:06.399 --> 02:09:08.720 What you guys are doing is concealed. 2101 02:09:09.680 --> 02:09:11.960 And what we're doing, I mean what basically what we're 2102 02:09:12.000 --> 02:09:16.079 doing is telling them, in a sense, a modified truth, 2103 02:09:16.119 --> 02:09:22.680 which is your leaders are making themselves rich while you 2104 02:09:22.840 --> 02:09:27.600 guys are being asked to be martyrs. Yeah, you know, 2105 02:09:28.000 --> 02:09:29.520 and which is all true. 2106 02:09:29.600 --> 02:09:32.840 Yeah, that's not really modified truth. That's kind of the truth. 2107 02:09:33.399 --> 02:09:34.119 That is the truth. 2108 02:09:34.119 --> 02:09:36.439 But it has to come from some place that doesn't 2109 02:09:36.439 --> 02:09:37.359 say United States of. 2110 02:09:37.319 --> 02:09:39.520 America doesn't have CIA all over it. 2111 02:09:39.880 --> 02:09:42.720 Right, that's right. So we did. 2112 02:09:42.760 --> 02:09:45.479 We did a variety of different, very creative things. I 2113 02:09:46.000 --> 02:09:49.640 take I mean no credit for this other than getting 2114 02:09:49.680 --> 02:09:50.840 money to make it happen. 2115 02:09:51.000 --> 02:09:52.640 I mean the I had a. 2116 02:09:52.680 --> 02:09:58.479 Team of exceptionally smart folks, and then because I knew 2117 02:09:58.520 --> 02:10:02.720 I was going to leave soon, have Alex to take 2118 02:10:02.720 --> 02:10:06.039 over for me. So we ended up at the end 2119 02:10:06.199 --> 02:10:08.079 of I ended up at the end of my career 2120 02:10:08.600 --> 02:10:11.600 with Alex as my deputy again, which was great. And 2121 02:10:11.640 --> 02:10:13.640 then he took over my job when I left. 2122 02:10:13.880 --> 02:10:17.239 That's pretty cool. So retired in two thousand and seven. 2123 02:10:17.359 --> 02:10:19.239 And tell us a little bit about what your life 2124 02:10:19.279 --> 02:10:22.079 has been like post retirement. I'm sure your your wife 2125 02:10:22.159 --> 02:10:23.760 is happy to have you at home a little more 2126 02:10:23.760 --> 02:10:27.119 often and getting into writing. 2127 02:10:27.199 --> 02:10:29.800 Your pretty very prolific writer. 2128 02:10:30.880 --> 02:10:36.119 Yeah, well, let's start with you know, I this this trade, 2129 02:10:37.680 --> 02:10:42.079 this blend of intelligence and special operations. It's it's very 2130 02:10:42.079 --> 02:10:45.960 addictive and it's very hard to just go cold Turkey. 2131 02:10:46.640 --> 02:10:53.359 So for years I worked very hard with the Army 2132 02:10:53.439 --> 02:10:56.840 and the Special Operations community to try and do some 2133 02:10:57.079 --> 02:11:00.680 training for them, cultural training. I'm an anthropology by training, 2134 02:11:01.760 --> 02:11:04.960 so cultural training on how to work with the locals. 2135 02:11:05.119 --> 02:11:07.319 I mean, obviously Robin Sage, they teach how to work 2136 02:11:07.319 --> 02:11:10.359 with the locals, but I'm like down in the tactical 2137 02:11:10.520 --> 02:11:13.359 this is how I worked with the locals, as well 2138 02:11:13.399 --> 02:11:18.319 as how to work with the CIA, because working with 2139 02:11:18.359 --> 02:11:22.439 the CIA is a challenge because it's another culture entirely. 2140 02:11:24.000 --> 02:11:27.399 And you know, it might seem easy when you're in 2141 02:11:27.439 --> 02:11:29.840 a forward operating base and you've got a base chief 2142 02:11:29.880 --> 02:11:33.079 and maybe one it's another thing entirely when you're going 2143 02:11:33.119 --> 02:11:38.279 to fly into a station, an established station, and you're 2144 02:11:38.279 --> 02:11:41.119 going to be talking to people who are interested in 2145 02:11:41.199 --> 02:11:46.600 conventional intelligence operations because that's their job. So I spend 2146 02:11:46.640 --> 02:11:49.199 a lot of time working on that and still do 2147 02:11:49.319 --> 02:11:54.439 a little bit of that. And then about five years 2148 02:11:54.479 --> 02:12:00.920 ago I started writing. And it seems more profic than 2149 02:12:01.119 --> 02:12:02.800 it is because Mike. 2150 02:12:02.720 --> 02:12:09.479 Four had to go through two years with the sensors. 2151 02:12:09.920 --> 02:12:14.239 Oh really, and then and then uh, it's the sequel. 2152 02:12:14.359 --> 02:12:18.319 Friend or foe was twenty eight months with the with 2153 02:12:18.439 --> 02:12:23.359 the sensors, and then eventually what happens is I guess 2154 02:12:23.399 --> 02:12:25.720 I just warmed down or they just figured out I'm 2155 02:12:25.720 --> 02:12:29.319 not going to quit. And I also crack that, you know, 2156 02:12:29.439 --> 02:12:32.800 got the code, right, I got the code. I understand 2157 02:12:32.880 --> 02:12:37.199 how to write to make sure that the sensors legitimately. 2158 02:12:37.239 --> 02:12:38.159 I mean, I'm I. 2159 02:12:38.199 --> 02:12:41.520 Signed a document in nineteen eighty five, right, they could 2160 02:12:41.720 --> 02:12:46.760 they could watch everything I wrote forever. So it isn't 2161 02:12:46.840 --> 02:12:52.680 like I don't understand that it's the rules. 2162 02:12:52.960 --> 02:12:53.479 I get it. 2163 02:12:54.119 --> 02:12:56.840 But it seems like if you look at like, you know, 2164 02:12:56.840 --> 02:13:02.560 like nine books since twenty nineteen. Well, no, actually I 2165 02:13:02.600 --> 02:13:07.680 started writing Mike four in twenty and fourteen, okay, finished it, 2166 02:13:07.760 --> 02:13:12.359 finished it in fifteen, and then had to find get 2167 02:13:12.439 --> 02:13:15.800 through the sensors, and then after the sensors had to 2168 02:13:15.840 --> 02:13:20.039 go through and find a publisher. So meanwhile, while I'm 2169 02:13:20.039 --> 02:13:23.720 doing all that, I'm still writing. So it looks like 2170 02:13:24.359 --> 02:13:28.439 I'm creating these things. Now, those people who have read 2171 02:13:28.479 --> 02:13:30.720 it will say it's sort of slap dash anyhow, But. 2172 02:13:30.720 --> 02:13:37.680 I mean the point is that it is. The publication 2173 02:13:37.920 --> 02:13:40.680 date doesn't reflect what happens. 2174 02:13:40.840 --> 02:13:41.560 That makes sense. 2175 02:13:42.199 --> 02:13:45.720 So I was just going to say for audience, who 2176 02:13:45.760 --> 02:13:50.119 doesn't know, because we've had people on who've written autobiographies 2177 02:13:50.199 --> 02:13:54.319 and whatnot, and we've talked about the pre publication review 2178 02:13:54.359 --> 02:13:57.560 board at the CIA that has to review their stuff 2179 02:13:57.600 --> 02:14:00.520 and make sure it's not classified. But you might not 2180 02:14:00.640 --> 02:14:03.399 know in the audience that even if you write fiction, 2181 02:14:04.640 --> 02:14:07.359 they have to go through it and check it to 2182 02:14:07.439 --> 02:14:10.399 make sure that you haven't spilled any secrets in your fiction. 2183 02:14:10.600 --> 02:14:13.720 Correct, correct, and you know and fair enough. 2184 02:14:13.840 --> 02:14:17.720 I mean, at the end of the day, you know, 2185 02:14:17.760 --> 02:14:21.359 there's an entire you know, there's an entire part of 2186 02:14:21.439 --> 02:14:26.119 the CIA that does open source intelligence and it you know, 2187 02:14:26.399 --> 02:14:29.279 for years and years and years, the KGB was doing 2188 02:14:29.359 --> 02:14:32.479 open source intelligence on all of their officers who were 2189 02:14:32.479 --> 02:14:36.000 in North America. That's what they were doing. So yeah, 2190 02:14:36.079 --> 02:14:41.640 the pre publication is a fair requirement. I think what 2191 02:14:41.800 --> 02:14:45.920 happened to me was that I hit it at a 2192 02:14:46.000 --> 02:14:51.520 time just about the time that a bunch of very 2193 02:14:51.600 --> 02:14:58.000 senior people legitimately wanted to write essays and articles and 2194 02:14:58.079 --> 02:15:02.439 books about their careers. Whereas so what would happen would 2195 02:15:02.439 --> 02:15:04.520 be I mean, I don't know this for sure, but 2196 02:15:04.760 --> 02:15:08.359 my guess is my fiction kept getting back down to 2197 02:15:08.399 --> 02:15:11.960 the bottom of the pile. Because, let's face it, if 2198 02:15:12.000 --> 02:15:16.079 a former director wants to write an editorial that's going 2199 02:15:16.119 --> 02:15:16.600 to the New. 2200 02:15:16.560 --> 02:15:20.520 York Times, that's a whole lot more. 2201 02:15:20.359 --> 02:15:25.239 Important than me writing about a fictional character who is 2202 02:15:25.279 --> 02:15:29.399 a special operator, right, I mean, it's just totally different. 2203 02:15:29.760 --> 02:15:33.760 So Jared, please, I'm I'm going to talk about your 2204 02:15:33.800 --> 02:15:37.319 other series and I'll ask you questions about it, but 2205 02:15:37.359 --> 02:15:39.720 please tell us. We haven't had a chance to read 2206 02:15:39.720 --> 02:15:41.960 this one, so please tell us about Mike four. It's 2207 02:15:42.079 --> 02:15:45.560 it's there are six books in the series. 2208 02:15:45.239 --> 02:15:48.319 Seven now and it's not another one just came. 2209 02:15:48.199 --> 02:15:52.880 Out, and it's about a family whose history and Special 2210 02:15:52.920 --> 02:15:55.319 Operations intelligence goes back to World War Two. 2211 02:15:55.359 --> 02:15:55.720 Correct? 2212 02:15:56.720 --> 02:15:57.199 Correct? 2213 02:15:57.439 --> 02:16:01.600 So the basic story is, Mike Fuur is the call 2214 02:16:01.680 --> 02:16:05.319 signed for a female special operator who is on a 2215 02:16:05.319 --> 02:16:06.479 surveillance detachment. 2216 02:16:07.079 --> 02:16:09.560 Okay, leave it at that. 2217 02:16:09.840 --> 02:16:13.239 For those for folks who know what we're talking about, 2218 02:16:13.319 --> 02:16:17.439 they know, but that's what the that's what the Policy 2219 02:16:17.479 --> 02:16:20.439 Review Board wanted it to be called. 2220 02:16:20.880 --> 02:16:22.279 So fair fair enough. 2221 02:16:22.760 --> 02:16:26.640 So she's in a surveillance detachment, very successful and but 2222 02:16:27.119 --> 02:16:31.560 very aggressive. Now you might say why a female character, Well, 2223 02:16:31.600 --> 02:16:36.600 partly because I met a ton of female operators and 2224 02:16:36.680 --> 02:16:41.239 a ton of agency females, and you know, you'd look 2225 02:16:41.280 --> 02:16:44.639 around in the fiction try and find some in fiction. 2226 02:16:44.879 --> 02:16:45.040 Right. 2227 02:16:45.559 --> 02:16:51.159 Anyhow, she is this the daughter of a tandem couple, 2228 02:16:51.639 --> 02:16:58.000 and she's the granddaughter of an OSS commando SO who 2229 02:16:58.040 --> 02:17:01.280 also then becomes a CIA off so very senior and 2230 02:17:01.399 --> 02:17:04.879 ends his career CIA officer. She doesn't want to be 2231 02:17:04.879 --> 02:17:08.799 in the family business, so she you know, goes through 2232 02:17:08.799 --> 02:17:14.600 selection and ends up in this surveillance detachment in Jalalabad. 2233 02:17:15.159 --> 02:17:19.079 She ends up walking into an ambush and it becomes 2234 02:17:19.200 --> 02:17:22.719 a what is known in the wounded warrior world as 2235 02:17:22.879 --> 02:17:29.200 BTK below the knee amputee and just like many btks 2236 02:17:30.120 --> 02:17:34.840 from Iraq Afghanistan, the Army, after she is healed as 2237 02:17:34.920 --> 02:17:38.440 much as a BTK can be healed, says to her, Okay, 2238 02:17:38.479 --> 02:17:42.360 here's the deal. You can either get one hundred percent 2239 02:17:42.399 --> 02:17:45.200 disability and start a new life, you know, go back 2240 02:17:45.200 --> 02:17:50.760 to college, go do something else, or you can stay 2241 02:17:50.760 --> 02:17:55.479 in the fight as an intelligence officer. And we're going 2242 02:17:55.520 --> 02:17:57.959 to send you to the farm and you're going to learn, 2243 02:17:58.559 --> 02:18:01.520 you know, CIA tradecraft, and you're going to be one 2244 02:18:01.559 --> 02:18:07.440 of our that is the Special Operations Community Intelligence officers. Well, 2245 02:18:07.920 --> 02:18:11.000 you know, Mike Forrest spent her whole life trying to 2246 02:18:11.280 --> 02:18:16.719 dodge the family business. But given a choice between staying 2247 02:18:16.760 --> 02:18:18.559 in the fight or not staying in the fight, she 2248 02:18:18.680 --> 02:18:22.200 chooses to stay in the fight, and she ends up 2249 02:18:22.959 --> 02:18:30.959 working in a team that is a Special Operations Intelligence, 2250 02:18:31.079 --> 02:18:37.360 human intelligence counter terrorism collection team. Now people say why 2251 02:18:37.760 --> 02:18:41.040 a BTK. One of the training programs I was in 2252 02:18:42.639 --> 02:18:45.680 after I retired was down at Fort Wachuka and I 2253 02:18:45.920 --> 02:18:49.959 was doing, you know, my cultural stuff, but we were 2254 02:18:50.000 --> 02:18:50.680 doing it out. 2255 02:18:50.879 --> 02:18:53.399 This is back in the day when Iraq and Afghanistan. 2256 02:18:53.520 --> 02:18:56.719 The guys who were doing intelligence had to be able 2257 02:18:56.799 --> 02:19:00.479 to get out into the literally out into the field. 2258 02:19:00.760 --> 02:19:05.559 So I was working students one after another and evaluating 2259 02:19:05.600 --> 02:19:08.719 them after the fact. It's a five day, six day program, 2260 02:19:09.239 --> 02:19:14.799 and you know, because I was an outsider, at the 2261 02:19:14.920 --> 02:19:17.399 end of that program, I would give them a one 2262 02:19:17.440 --> 02:19:20.840 on one. Hey, this worked well for you, this didn't 2263 02:19:20.879 --> 02:19:25.079 work so well. And like you know, I learned through 2264 02:19:25.559 --> 02:19:28.719 all the leadership training I've ever given and ever taken 2265 02:19:29.079 --> 02:19:33.680 that you know, it's it's really good to unkey the 2266 02:19:33.719 --> 02:19:36.440 mic and listen for a while. Now those of you 2267 02:19:36.479 --> 02:19:38.920 who have been listening to me for now two hours 2268 02:19:39.319 --> 02:19:42.719 are wondering about that. But nevertheless, so I went to 2269 02:19:42.799 --> 02:19:47.120 one of these guys and I said, so you have 2270 02:19:47.280 --> 02:19:50.399 anything you want to say, because he had done very 2271 02:19:50.399 --> 02:19:52.159 well and I didn't expect him to say anything more 2272 02:19:52.159 --> 02:19:55.520 than thank you and go. He's like, man, this is tough. 2273 02:19:55.959 --> 02:20:00.680 This was really hard, and I was like, dude, it's 2274 02:20:00.719 --> 02:20:03.879 supposed to be hard. That's the whole point. And that's 2275 02:20:03.879 --> 02:20:06.319 when he rolled up his pants leg and showed me 2276 02:20:06.399 --> 02:20:10.200 that he was a BTK. I had walked this guy 2277 02:20:10.440 --> 02:20:16.840 all over southern New Mexico and he had never said 2278 02:20:16.879 --> 02:20:21.600 anything and had done his job on his own, all alone, 2279 02:20:21.920 --> 02:20:25.159 face to face with me giving him a hard time. 2280 02:20:26.200 --> 02:20:28.840 And it was at that point I realized. 2281 02:20:29.840 --> 02:20:31.959 That is one you know, this is in the eighty 2282 02:20:32.000 --> 02:20:33.639 second when you say that that guy's as hard as 2283 02:20:33.680 --> 02:20:37.719 woodpecker lips. Yeah, you know, I mean he was one 2284 02:20:38.079 --> 02:20:44.360 hard character. Well, years later, when I'm trying to figure 2285 02:20:44.399 --> 02:20:50.120 out how I'm going to move this character from this 2286 02:20:50.360 --> 02:20:53.120 side of the house to that side of the house, 2287 02:20:54.879 --> 02:20:58.719 it only seemed fair to make sure that there was 2288 02:20:59.360 --> 02:21:04.479 a person there who was a BTK who said right 2289 02:21:04.559 --> 02:21:09.920 up front, I'm not a victim. I am a person 2290 02:21:10.319 --> 02:21:13.920 who is still in the fight, and I will remain 2291 02:21:14.000 --> 02:21:16.280 in the fight until I retire. 2292 02:21:16.920 --> 02:21:17.559 And you know, the. 2293 02:21:17.520 --> 02:21:20.719 Special Operations community, the Army as a whole is filled 2294 02:21:20.719 --> 02:21:24.559 with people right now who are gravely who were gravely 2295 02:21:24.600 --> 02:21:27.719 injured in a rocker Afghanistan and are still in the fight. 2296 02:21:27.799 --> 02:21:30.959 And God bless them for that, because most folks don't 2297 02:21:30.959 --> 02:21:34.159 even know that they're that they are wounded warriors because 2298 02:21:34.200 --> 02:21:38.520 they don't tell anybody, They don't ask for any any pity. 2299 02:21:38.840 --> 02:21:42.440 They just want to do their job. So that's that's 2300 02:21:42.520 --> 02:21:45.360 Mike four goes through a bunch of different stuff. There's 2301 02:21:45.680 --> 02:21:49.559 seven in the series. Six of them are about Mike four, 2302 02:21:50.120 --> 02:21:53.559 and one of them is entirely focused on a prequel 2303 02:21:53.680 --> 02:21:54.840 about her grandfather. 2304 02:21:55.280 --> 02:21:57.840 Because through the series you. 2305 02:21:57.840 --> 02:22:03.879 Find out that there's a vendetta between a Russian family 2306 02:22:03.920 --> 02:22:08.319 of spies and an American family of spies, and book 2307 02:22:08.399 --> 02:22:15.319 four reveals, actually Book three reveals that the origins of 2308 02:22:15.360 --> 02:22:16.000 that vendetta. 2309 02:22:16.799 --> 02:22:20.879 So, guys, so check out if you I mean, check 2310 02:22:20.879 --> 02:22:23.879 out the Mic Force series. I'm going to talk about 2311 02:22:24.000 --> 02:22:28.159 a school for the Great Game which to me is 2312 02:22:28.319 --> 02:22:33.079 a mix of Kipling Hopkirk The Great Game. 2313 02:22:33.719 --> 02:22:38.760 Uh uh, it's got. 2314 02:22:38.680 --> 02:22:42.760 It's steampunk, like it says, it's a steampunk rise novel, 2315 02:22:43.200 --> 02:22:46.440 but it's also like a Philip K. Dick like alternate 2316 02:22:46.719 --> 02:22:51.680 alternative history or alternate history. It's it's a fascinating book 2317 02:22:51.840 --> 02:22:56.799 that draws on real history of the world. It's basically 2318 02:22:56.840 --> 02:23:00.760 The Great Game, but more in a steampunk environment where 2319 02:23:00.799 --> 02:23:05.760 it's a little bit of Ian Fleming, where mysticism and 2320 02:23:05.799 --> 02:23:09.239 mentalism actually exist. I mean, it's a fascinating book. Where 2321 02:23:09.280 --> 02:23:10.200 did this come from? 2322 02:23:10.600 --> 02:23:13.959 Because there's two of these, there's actually I'm working on 2323 02:23:14.000 --> 02:23:14.520 the third one. 2324 02:23:14.799 --> 02:23:17.680 We're in will I on a regular basis. 2325 02:23:17.680 --> 02:23:19.360 You know, my wife's an artist, and all of the 2326 02:23:19.440 --> 02:23:21.399 illustrations in that book. 2327 02:23:21.079 --> 02:23:21.879 Are from her. 2328 02:23:22.200 --> 02:23:22.920 Oh cool, So. 2329 02:23:24.760 --> 02:23:27.520 But you know, I'll regularly say to her. 2330 02:23:27.559 --> 02:23:30.239 Recently, I'm saying like, I'm going back to my office 2331 02:23:30.239 --> 02:23:35.040 and back to nineteen fifteen, because book three is set 2332 02:23:35.120 --> 02:23:38.559 in World War One. So what I'd like to tell 2333 02:23:38.600 --> 02:23:42.159 people about this series is, if you can imagine Rudyard 2334 02:23:42.239 --> 02:23:49.280 Kipling's Kim meeting stan Lee's Doctor Strange. Yeah, yeah, that's 2335 02:23:49.440 --> 02:23:50.239 the story. 2336 02:23:50.840 --> 02:23:54.559 But there's Ian fleming that there's there's Her Majesty's Secret Service. 2337 02:23:55.440 --> 02:23:57.959 Oh well yeah, well, well here's the here's the deal. 2338 02:23:58.000 --> 02:24:00.920 I mean, when in the eighties, when I was in 2339 02:24:01.120 --> 02:24:04.120 f you know, doing the Afghan stuff. One of the 2340 02:24:04.120 --> 02:24:07.159 things that I really believe in is if you're going 2341 02:24:07.239 --> 02:24:12.719 to do this trade, you have to understand history. Whatever 2342 02:24:12.879 --> 02:24:16.319 culture you're working against, you have to understand history. So 2343 02:24:16.760 --> 02:24:20.680 the good news is when the Brits left the subcontinent, 2344 02:24:21.600 --> 02:24:25.479 they left behind the print plates for all of their 2345 02:24:25.520 --> 02:24:29.120 old books, and so you could buy in books you 2346 02:24:29.159 --> 02:24:33.479 still can buy in bookstores memoirs of you know, twenty 2347 02:24:33.600 --> 02:24:36.479 years on a Kiber, this and that and the other thing. Well, 2348 02:24:36.559 --> 02:24:41.239 a lot of those books include these statements that, you know, 2349 02:24:41.559 --> 02:24:47.479 the guy dyes his skin with walnut oil and puts 2350 02:24:47.520 --> 02:24:51.799 on the local garb and disappears in the crowd. Well listen, bullshit, 2351 02:24:51.840 --> 02:24:54.920 trust me. Yeah, I mean exactly. I mean, I speak 2352 02:24:54.920 --> 02:24:57.760 the language pretty darn good. I grew a beard that 2353 02:24:57.840 --> 02:25:00.879 looked like zz top. But let me tell you, I 2354 02:25:00.920 --> 02:25:05.000 didn't fool any locals, right except maybe at a distance 2355 02:25:05.479 --> 02:25:09.000 where if they were looking to shoot somebody. 2356 02:25:07.959 --> 02:25:09.920 They might not shoot me first. 2357 02:25:10.159 --> 02:25:12.239 They'd shoot me eventually they were not going to shoot 2358 02:25:12.239 --> 02:25:13.719 me first. 2359 02:25:14.000 --> 02:25:15.159 So okay, fine. 2360 02:25:15.399 --> 02:25:18.680 So but I thought to myself, Okay, well I know 2361 02:25:18.799 --> 02:25:23.360 it's not true, but what if it was true. Well, 2362 02:25:23.399 --> 02:25:27.120 if it was true, somebody would have to teach these 2363 02:25:27.159 --> 02:25:32.200 guys to do this stuff. So I created the school 2364 02:25:32.680 --> 02:25:35.600 right where they were being taught how to disappear into 2365 02:25:35.639 --> 02:25:43.040 the crowd, how to run their operations against the Russians. 2366 02:25:44.000 --> 02:25:48.280 Now by the second book, they're Russians and the Brits 2367 02:25:48.319 --> 02:25:51.399 are allies, and they're running their operations against the Germans, 2368 02:25:52.040 --> 02:25:56.600 as they are in this new book too. But it's 2369 02:25:56.639 --> 02:25:59.680 a fun book. It takes a lot longer to write 2370 02:26:00.239 --> 02:26:05.479 because I put real people into the story, and those 2371 02:26:05.520 --> 02:26:08.639 real people kind of have to be where I say 2372 02:26:08.639 --> 02:26:13.559 they are, right, because most folks are going to wonder 2373 02:26:13.600 --> 02:26:17.479 about who are these people? And in today's world of 2374 02:26:18.559 --> 02:26:21.920 Google and Wikipedia, people are going to really quick no 2375 02:26:22.520 --> 02:26:26.000 if I was completely off base, right, So I do. 2376 02:26:26.639 --> 02:26:28.000 I do a fair bit of research. 2377 02:26:28.040 --> 02:26:30.760 But of course, as I said, I bought a whole 2378 02:26:30.799 --> 02:26:33.360 bunch of books from that time period and brought them 2379 02:26:33.360 --> 02:26:35.520 back to the States. My office has got probably five 2380 02:26:35.600 --> 02:26:39.079 hundred books of background stuff that I can use. 2381 02:26:39.360 --> 02:26:42.639 It just means I have to be a student again. 2382 02:26:43.200 --> 02:26:43.680 That's all. 2383 02:26:43.840 --> 02:26:46.239 Well, what's so fascinating about it? 2384 02:26:46.280 --> 02:26:49.399 Is it like in a lot of like in some ways, 2385 02:26:49.399 --> 02:26:52.319 if you took out the fictional elements, the characters, the 2386 02:26:52.559 --> 02:26:57.120 you know that, you know, the steampunk, you know, the 2387 02:26:57.639 --> 02:27:00.879 you know, the magic or whatever, it's a history book. 2388 02:27:01.079 --> 02:27:03.799 Like there's so much rich history in it. 2389 02:27:03.840 --> 02:27:07.000 About Afghanistan, about like there are so many things and 2390 02:27:07.040 --> 02:27:08.479 I'm like, oh my gosh, like you know. 2391 02:27:08.479 --> 02:27:09.479 You're talking about the possible. 2392 02:27:09.520 --> 02:27:11.319 Oh yeah, I mean when I'm talking about the Waziris 2393 02:27:11.360 --> 02:27:14.200 and the Mansuits, and that's absolutely the Waziris and the 2394 02:27:14.200 --> 02:27:18.399 Marsuits were regularly causing trouble up on the and the Fata. 2395 02:27:18.479 --> 02:27:19.040 Well you know. 2396 02:27:19.200 --> 02:27:23.280 And and the thing about the mysticism is interesting. I 2397 02:27:23.440 --> 02:27:28.840 got that from there was a h An adventurer, a 2398 02:27:28.840 --> 02:27:32.680 Belgian adventurer that went up into Tibet in the thirties. 2399 02:27:33.239 --> 02:27:35.639 Oh and he came and he came. 2400 02:27:35.520 --> 02:27:39.559 Back and wrote this book about all those things that 2401 02:27:39.600 --> 02:27:43.840 I'm talking about, right, all the the you know, the 2402 02:27:43.840 --> 02:27:48.680 the uh being able to jump long distances and being 2403 02:27:48.760 --> 02:27:54.079 able to be untelepathy and all that stuff. Now another 2404 02:27:54.799 --> 02:27:57.600 you know short you know, reality story. I have a 2405 02:27:57.639 --> 02:28:00.000 friend who I worked with for years and years and years, 2406 02:28:00.000 --> 02:28:05.239 Special Forces guy was also an Olympic kayaker, and years 2407 02:28:05.319 --> 02:28:09.360 later he was hired by National Geographic to be a 2408 02:28:09.520 --> 02:28:12.879 scout for them. They were going to sport a sponsor 2409 02:28:13.399 --> 02:28:16.440 a team that was going to try and and and 2410 02:28:16.600 --> 02:28:20.959 whitewater raft, so rafting on the headwaters of the Ganges 2411 02:28:21.040 --> 02:28:27.399 all the way from Nepal down to Calcutta. Well, you know, 2412 02:28:27.559 --> 02:28:32.479 my friend Wick, he uh, and he's a writer as well. 2413 02:28:32.520 --> 02:28:35.520 He's he's now, of course we're all geezers, so we 2414 02:28:35.600 --> 02:28:36.959 can't be adventurers anymore. 2415 02:28:37.040 --> 02:28:37.799 We have to write. 2416 02:28:37.920 --> 02:28:41.680 But he was doing this and he was you know, 2417 02:28:41.719 --> 02:28:44.680 of course he doesn't speak Nepali uh, and he doesn't 2418 02:28:44.680 --> 02:28:47.479 speak kindy. So so what he did was on his 2419 02:28:47.520 --> 02:28:51.319 first leg of the whitewater, he hired a young man 2420 02:28:51.399 --> 02:28:55.280 who was from the University Katmandu, spoke good English uh 2421 02:28:55.399 --> 02:28:59.920 and was a comparative religion guy, which in University cat 2422 02:29:00.040 --> 02:29:05.479 And who meant he was comparing red hat white hat Buddhism. 2423 02:29:05.600 --> 02:29:09.600 But anyhow, Wicks, you know, spending his time with this 2424 02:29:09.719 --> 02:29:14.760 guy and at one point he says, after some weeks 2425 02:29:14.799 --> 02:29:16.360 and he's made friends with the guy look at He says, 2426 02:29:16.399 --> 02:29:19.360 I don't want to insult you, but I've been reading 2427 02:29:19.440 --> 02:29:25.079 for years about the fact that, you know, Tibetan monks 2428 02:29:25.559 --> 02:29:31.399 could could you know, astral project from one monastery to 2429 02:29:31.520 --> 02:29:35.479 another monastery, and you know all that stuff. I've read 2430 02:29:35.479 --> 02:29:37.639 this book about this guy who says he's seen all 2431 02:29:37.639 --> 02:29:42.840 this stuff, like really, And the young man said, you know, yeah, absolutely, 2432 02:29:43.040 --> 02:29:45.760 there's you got to separate facts in fiction, right, I mean, 2433 02:29:45.840 --> 02:29:50.159 it's our religion is our religion, and we believe these 2434 02:29:50.200 --> 02:29:53.559 things and some of these things, he says personally, and 2435 02:29:53.600 --> 02:29:56.559 then he he you know, raises his hand. He says, 2436 02:29:56.959 --> 02:30:00.559 I've never seen a monk Levita anymore than up the 2437 02:30:00.719 --> 02:30:06.479 height of my shoulder, and and wiccoes, all right, then 2438 02:30:07.520 --> 02:30:08.799 that answers the question, you know. 2439 02:30:09.440 --> 02:30:11.520 So so I just. 2440 02:30:11.559 --> 02:30:14.680 Put that stuff in because it's fun, it's you know, 2441 02:30:15.239 --> 02:30:17.840 and it gives me an opportunity to get some of 2442 02:30:17.879 --> 02:30:21.600 the characters out of jams. Sure that would they would otherwise, 2443 02:30:22.280 --> 02:30:25.680 you know. And and partly it's true that if you 2444 02:30:26.840 --> 02:30:31.079 are able to, i mean, disappearing in the crowd is 2445 02:30:31.079 --> 02:30:36.760 one thing. But there's plenty of stories of modern stories 2446 02:30:37.239 --> 02:30:43.159 about snipers disappearing into ground that nobody would expect they 2447 02:30:43.159 --> 02:30:46.719 could disappear too, right, And that's because. 2448 02:30:48.479 --> 02:30:50.920 What well, I mean, it's it's because. 2449 02:30:52.239 --> 02:30:58.319 They understand how the adversary's mind works. So if you 2450 02:30:58.559 --> 02:31:03.360 look like something that the adversary expects to see, then 2451 02:31:03.479 --> 02:31:07.159 you are. You're not invisible in the sense of doctor 2452 02:31:07.159 --> 02:31:11.840 Strange invisible, but you are invisible to your adversary. 2453 02:31:11.319 --> 02:31:12.799 Because I don't see you. Right. 2454 02:31:13.760 --> 02:31:16.639 It's also like it's just a fun element to the story. 2455 02:31:16.799 --> 02:31:19.360 Let's jump into the user questions here. Let's try to 2456 02:31:19.360 --> 02:31:20.840 get through these for JR. 2457 02:31:22.079 --> 02:31:24.159 Okay, Jerry, thank you very much. 2458 02:31:24.559 --> 02:31:28.159 Do you have knowledge about operations some moom back in 2459 02:31:28.280 --> 02:31:29.799 nineteen ninety in Iraq? 2460 02:31:31.200 --> 02:31:35.000 No, I mean, I'm not a I'm a Central Asian guy, 2461 02:31:35.239 --> 02:31:36.600 So I'm sorry, I can't. 2462 02:31:37.120 --> 02:31:38.159 I can't speak on. 2463 02:31:38.280 --> 02:31:41.479 Iraq at all. My I made two trips to Iraq, 2464 02:31:42.040 --> 02:31:46.040 and neither one of them were in that time period. 2465 02:31:46.159 --> 02:31:47.879 I mean I made two trips in the Rock because 2466 02:31:47.920 --> 02:31:53.000 I had some of my black propaganda team there, so 2467 02:31:53.280 --> 02:31:58.159 I was in Bagdad and Ramadi a couple of times. 2468 02:31:58.239 --> 02:32:01.760 But no, sorry, I I'm not trying to dodge it. 2469 02:32:01.840 --> 02:32:02.639 I just don't know anything. 2470 02:32:02.639 --> 02:32:04.280 About it, and you know, as you weren't trying to judge. 2471 02:32:04.319 --> 02:32:05.040 It's totally cool. 2472 02:32:05.120 --> 02:32:08.319 We get it, John Verre, but we know you John Pierre, 2473 02:32:08.319 --> 02:32:09.280 thank you very much. 2474 02:32:11.079 --> 02:32:14.000 Keeping people safe. Last year was reported that the agents. 2475 02:32:13.719 --> 02:32:17.399 Made to call out on the loss of too many informants? 2476 02:32:17.639 --> 02:32:22.120 Is the is the cause the tougher environments or the 2477 02:32:22.239 --> 02:32:23.879 lack of talented handlers? 2478 02:32:24.360 --> 02:32:26.440 And I'm going to add on to this order, is 2479 02:32:26.479 --> 02:32:29.520 there do you think that there are other issues? 2480 02:32:31.000 --> 02:32:34.879 Well, first of all, right, the whole idea of what's 2481 02:32:34.920 --> 02:32:41.079 called uts right, ubiquitous technical surveillance makes it exceptionally hard 2482 02:32:41.600 --> 02:32:44.719 to do the old kind of trade craft I did. 2483 02:32:45.319 --> 02:32:45.479 Right. 2484 02:32:47.159 --> 02:32:49.440 Then you add to that, how are you going to 2485 02:32:49.520 --> 02:32:52.840 communicate with these folks if you can't see him face 2486 02:32:52.879 --> 02:32:55.879 to face? Well, then you then you enter another piece 2487 02:32:55.920 --> 02:33:00.760 of Now you're into another world where cyber operations and 2488 02:33:00.840 --> 02:33:05.000 cybersecurity and everything else. So I think that what happens 2489 02:33:05.239 --> 02:33:09.600 is we go through it is and I don't want 2490 02:33:09.639 --> 02:33:12.559 to make light of it because it's people's deaths, But 2491 02:33:13.360 --> 02:33:18.319 it is a competition, just like it's a competition between 2492 02:33:19.200 --> 02:33:25.239 stealth aircraft and air defense. You're constantly competing with your 2493 02:33:25.280 --> 02:33:29.479 adversary who's trying to get better to defeat you, and 2494 02:33:29.520 --> 02:33:32.399 then as they start to defeat you, you have to 2495 02:33:32.399 --> 02:33:36.360 figure out new mechanisms, new means to get through it. 2496 02:33:36.479 --> 02:33:40.760 So I think probably the answer is the technology is 2497 02:33:40.920 --> 02:33:46.879 moving so quickly now that it's really hard to do 2498 02:33:47.200 --> 02:33:49.719 the job that I mean, you couldn't do the job 2499 02:33:49.760 --> 02:33:53.360 that I did. Really, honestly, the sort of trade craft 2500 02:33:53.399 --> 02:33:55.719 I used might as well be you might as well 2501 02:33:55.760 --> 02:33:57.760 be talking about the nineteenth century. 2502 02:33:57.440 --> 02:34:05.440 Right, Yeah, Rowdy's incoherent rambling. 2503 02:34:05.479 --> 02:34:08.200 Thank you very much for your donation. Very good podcast. 2504 02:34:08.399 --> 02:34:08.719 Thank you. 2505 02:34:09.200 --> 02:34:11.120 I spent a good bit of last night actually doing 2506 02:34:11.120 --> 02:34:13.760 some more research on early two thousand and one operations. 2507 02:34:14.520 --> 02:34:17.520 Interesting listening to someone who is on the ground watching 2508 02:34:17.520 --> 02:34:21.719 it all unfold. And thank you very much Jr. For 2509 02:34:21.840 --> 02:34:26.680 being here and for sharing your experiences with us and 2510 02:34:26.760 --> 02:34:27.479 with our audience. 2511 02:34:27.559 --> 02:34:30.159 Like, well, it's my you know, I won't say a 2512 02:34:30.200 --> 02:34:33.000 pleasure because it reminds me of a death of a teammate, 2513 02:34:33.120 --> 02:34:36.639 but it is nice to be able to now, twenty 2514 02:34:36.719 --> 02:34:40.239 years later, be able to talk about something and tell people, 2515 02:34:41.040 --> 02:34:46.920 how to explain to people how complicated it is. It's 2516 02:34:46.959 --> 02:34:51.200 not it's not easy to do this stuff, and it 2517 02:34:51.280 --> 02:34:56.200 requires time on target. Yeah, you know it, two thousand 2518 02:34:56.239 --> 02:34:59.079 and one didn't happen because of two thousand and one. 2519 02:34:59.120 --> 02:35:01.719 It happened because of we were doing in the nineteen eighties. 2520 02:35:02.040 --> 02:35:04.799 Right, And you could say the same thing about what 2521 02:35:04.920 --> 02:35:05.719 happened in Iraq. 2522 02:35:05.799 --> 02:35:08.440 You could say the same thing today. Probably. 2523 02:35:08.479 --> 02:35:10.520 I mean, I don't know anything about Ukraine except what 2524 02:35:10.600 --> 02:35:13.559 I read the newspaper. But my guess is some of 2525 02:35:13.559 --> 02:35:19.920 those successes are probably associated with a partnership between the 2526 02:35:20.040 --> 02:35:23.360 Ukrainians and some part of the United States government. 2527 02:35:23.520 --> 02:35:27.200 Right, just say it, right that the foundation has been there, 2528 02:35:29.680 --> 02:35:32.520 Sassar an Omen, thank you very much for the donation. 2529 02:35:33.040 --> 02:35:36.120 Thanksteam House. Your content never disappoints. Thank you that with 2530 02:35:36.239 --> 02:35:41.040 We're all broke my heart in your opinion? Does this 2531 02:35:42.120 --> 02:35:46.559 so this is your opinion. It doesn't have to be 2532 02:35:46.600 --> 02:35:48.559 based on anything you do or don't know. Does CEI 2533 02:35:48.680 --> 02:35:51.920 have plans in supporting the resistance Afghanistan? 2534 02:35:52.000 --> 02:35:52.200 Yeah? 2535 02:35:52.200 --> 02:35:55.760 Would you think about would you think that the agency 2536 02:35:55.799 --> 02:35:57.639 would have plans in supporting the resistance there? 2537 02:35:57.680 --> 02:35:59.239 Or do you think that would probably just pull up? 2538 02:35:59.319 --> 02:36:01.879 I mean again, it's been years and years since I've 2539 02:36:01.920 --> 02:36:04.360 been I haven't been in the building and only that 2540 02:36:04.520 --> 02:36:06.719 as a guest, and that was five years ago. So 2541 02:36:06.879 --> 02:36:11.440 I mean, so that's again, let's go back to what 2542 02:36:11.479 --> 02:36:18.440 I said before. In nineteen eighty nine, theoretically we stopped 2543 02:36:18.559 --> 02:36:23.680 being in contact with Afghans? Did we stop? Were we 2544 02:36:23.959 --> 02:36:27.959 and we like stop the whole program? Did we stop 2545 02:36:28.600 --> 02:36:29.760 working with Afghans? 2546 02:36:29.840 --> 02:36:30.079 Well? 2547 02:36:30.120 --> 02:36:38.159 No, you know, now it's complicated by the way that 2548 02:36:38.360 --> 02:36:42.680 everything has happened in Afghanistan. But you know, in nineteen 2549 02:36:42.799 --> 02:36:46.959 ninety one and ninety two, we were still contacting Afghans 2550 02:36:47.000 --> 02:36:50.799 in the middle of a civil war. In nineteen ninety eight, 2551 02:36:50.959 --> 02:36:55.000 I was still contacting Afghans when the Taliban were in charge. 2552 02:36:55.639 --> 02:37:01.639 So I can't imagine that there aren't people in the 2553 02:37:01.719 --> 02:37:09.280 agency working this problem set. However, I want to reinforce 2554 02:37:09.360 --> 02:37:13.120 to your to your to the folks who write and 2555 02:37:13.200 --> 02:37:16.280 to you guys. I don't know, right, I'm a geezer. 2556 02:37:16.680 --> 02:37:20.920 I am long out of practice. I mean, it was amazing. 2557 02:37:21.040 --> 02:37:23.440 I tell people. When I tell people I was riding 2558 02:37:23.479 --> 02:37:26.559 on you know, on horses at forty six, they roll 2559 02:37:26.639 --> 02:37:30.399 their eyes at that. You can imagine. You can imagine 2560 02:37:30.479 --> 02:37:34.239 at sixty seven how useless I would be in that game, 2561 02:37:34.319 --> 02:37:37.079 so nobody is much interested in what I have to 2562 02:37:37.159 --> 02:37:37.760 think or say. 2563 02:37:38.239 --> 02:37:41.840 Yeah, Stuart, oh, thank you very much for the donation. 2564 02:37:41.920 --> 02:37:44.120 We really appreciate it. Jr. 2565 02:37:44.319 --> 02:37:46.920 Thanks for telling the stories of the accomplishments of you 2566 02:37:46.959 --> 02:37:47.719 and your team. 2567 02:37:47.959 --> 02:37:48.719 Makes me proud. 2568 02:37:50.239 --> 02:37:53.920 Well, thank you very much for saying that. It's the 2569 02:37:55.319 --> 02:37:58.360 that time period was something that was really something and 2570 02:37:58.399 --> 02:38:01.600 it wasn't just remember we were Alpha Bravo, but it 2571 02:38:01.719 --> 02:38:04.479 was I mean, if you haven't read the books, I mean, 2572 02:38:04.600 --> 02:38:09.000 Foxtrot and Condihar is about uh Echo and Fox Fox 2573 02:38:09.040 --> 02:38:13.079 Trot teams. Uh, there's there's a you know, there were 2574 02:38:13.719 --> 02:38:16.159 a bunch of I mean, Fox Trott was probably the 2575 02:38:16.239 --> 02:38:20.040 last of the teams that was behind lines. Uh, but 2576 02:38:20.079 --> 02:38:22.079 there were teams. I mean we were we were just 2577 02:38:22.239 --> 02:38:25.079 two of all those others. And I would have to 2578 02:38:25.120 --> 02:38:28.280 actually get my fingers and count on my toes to 2579 02:38:28.319 --> 02:38:31.239 try and figure out how many. But because I'm I'm 2580 02:38:31.280 --> 02:38:33.559 not real good about the alphabet and all that. But 2581 02:38:33.959 --> 02:38:36.360 I'm just saying there were a lot of guys out 2582 02:38:36.360 --> 02:38:40.520 there who committed to this and did very much the 2583 02:38:40.520 --> 02:38:43.120 same sort of stuff we all fought in this battle, 2584 02:38:43.559 --> 02:38:47.520 along with the odas, along with the Rangers who went 2585 02:38:47.559 --> 02:38:51.319 into Condohar early on along with the you know this 2586 02:38:51.879 --> 02:38:55.000 special boat Service guys that you know were with me 2587 02:38:56.159 --> 02:39:00.520 for weeks. Uh, so you know it's it's a good thing. 2588 02:39:01.479 --> 02:39:03.440 Scotchy, thank you very much for the genation. 2589 02:39:03.920 --> 02:39:07.920 How does black propaganda work when the enemy enemy knows 2590 02:39:08.040 --> 02:39:10.760 who it's coming from. I want to have more effective 2591 02:39:10.840 --> 02:39:13.399 trash talk in video games. 2592 02:39:14.639 --> 02:39:17.040 Well, the enemy can't know where it's coming from. That's 2593 02:39:17.079 --> 02:39:19.600 the whole point, right, So what you do in black 2594 02:39:19.639 --> 02:39:24.319 propaganda is, let's I'll just give you a generic example. 2595 02:39:25.000 --> 02:39:30.879 So if I well, I mean, you don't have to 2596 02:39:30.920 --> 02:39:32.719 do a generic example. We could do what the Russians 2597 02:39:32.760 --> 02:39:37.799 to talk about what the Russians did in sixteen, So 2598 02:39:37.920 --> 02:39:46.760 they created fictional Americans to reside on the web to 2599 02:39:46.920 --> 02:39:50.840 say whatever they wanted to. Because they were fictional, they 2600 02:39:50.840 --> 02:39:56.799 could say whatever. And the idea was to create controversy, 2601 02:39:57.239 --> 02:40:04.319 to create hostility on the web. So sometimes those fictional 2602 02:40:04.360 --> 02:40:09.479 Americans were pro Hillary, sometimes they were pro Donald Trump. 2603 02:40:10.079 --> 02:40:16.639 Sometimes they were neither. And they were doing wedge issue stuff, 2604 02:40:16.680 --> 02:40:22.319 whether it was gun control or abortion or Christianity or 2605 02:40:22.360 --> 02:40:28.600 whatever that in today's world, it's really it's not easy, 2606 02:40:28.639 --> 02:40:34.360 but it is much easier to create fictional characters than 2607 02:40:34.399 --> 02:40:38.520 it's ever been before that are that are that appear real, right, 2608 02:40:38.600 --> 02:40:43.440 I mean with with Ai especially, you can look like 2609 02:40:44.479 --> 02:40:47.840 or that that fictional character can absolutely look like he's 2610 02:40:47.879 --> 02:40:51.920 writing to you right now, uh huh. And and the 2611 02:40:52.000 --> 02:40:54.280 time stamp is going to be right, and the IP 2612 02:40:54.440 --> 02:40:56.879 address is going to be right, all of that stuff. 2613 02:40:56.920 --> 02:41:02.040 So I would say to your to the it's about 2614 02:41:02.280 --> 02:41:05.639 making sure that they that you are not who you 2615 02:41:05.680 --> 02:41:06.159 say you are. 2616 02:41:06.520 --> 02:41:10.799 So Scott, you need some sock puppet accounts exactly when 2617 02:41:10.840 --> 02:41:12.959 you're trash talking and gaming, you need to create some 2618 02:41:13.000 --> 02:41:16.520 sock puppet accounts to create controversial topics. 2619 02:41:16.600 --> 02:41:19.760 I got one last question from Isaac. It's a little 2620 02:41:19.799 --> 02:41:22.719 bit of a long one, but he says, dear mister Seeger, 2621 02:41:23.040 --> 02:41:25.079 I'm twenty nine years old in my second year of 2622 02:41:25.200 --> 02:41:28.600 university getting my bachelor's and Computer information Systems. After that, 2623 02:41:28.639 --> 02:41:31.600 I want to get my master's in cybersecurity. When I'm done, 2624 02:41:31.639 --> 02:41:33.639 I want to apply for the agency. I would be 2625 02:41:33.680 --> 02:41:36.920 happy doing clandestine services, being a case officer or cyber 2626 02:41:36.959 --> 02:41:39.799 ops officer, but I want to work, do the work 2627 02:41:40.040 --> 02:41:42.200 like you did, and go into ground branch but I'm 2628 02:41:42.239 --> 02:41:45.280 afraid of hitting the same roadblocks as when I tried 2629 02:41:45.319 --> 02:41:47.479 to enlist. I could not enlist in the army because 2630 02:41:47.559 --> 02:41:50.639 I didn't qualify for medical waivers, even though I'm not 2631 02:41:50.719 --> 02:41:54.879 medically restricted at all. The recruiter described to me that 2632 02:41:54.959 --> 02:41:56.959 a MEPs doctor did not want to take the chance 2633 02:41:57.000 --> 02:42:00.879 on me. Also, I had a record for misdemeanor, which 2634 02:42:00.879 --> 02:42:03.440 has been resolved for a long time. What can I 2635 02:42:03.479 --> 02:42:05.479 do to make the agency see me and increase my 2636 02:42:05.600 --> 02:42:08.520 chances of getting in? Do they care if people were 2637 02:42:09.520 --> 02:42:13.520 never honorable students because I'm not. Does even asking questions 2638 02:42:13.680 --> 02:42:16.040 a lot format like this hurt my chances? 2639 02:42:16.719 --> 02:42:17.959 What do you think? JR? 2640 02:42:18.840 --> 02:42:25.040 Okay, First things first, nobody in either the CIA or 2641 02:42:25.079 --> 02:42:27.639 the FBI is going to look at anybody who's still 2642 02:42:27.760 --> 02:42:32.319 an undergraduate. What we want to see is a person, 2643 02:42:32.479 --> 02:42:35.479 and again I've worked with FBI recruiters just as much 2644 02:42:35.479 --> 02:42:38.120 as I've worked with CIA recruiters. What we want to 2645 02:42:38.159 --> 02:42:41.280 see as a person who has finished school and then 2646 02:42:41.440 --> 02:42:47.399 gone to do something else. Because let's face it, when 2647 02:42:47.440 --> 02:42:53.239 you're in college, you probably don't meet nasty people. You 2648 02:42:53.319 --> 02:42:58.000 may think they're nasty professors, but you don't meet challenging 2649 02:42:58.360 --> 02:43:01.159 nasty people, and you're going to be in the CIA 2650 02:43:01.399 --> 02:43:06.440 or the FBI, You've got to understand that perspective. 2651 02:43:06.879 --> 02:43:07.559 So start with that. 2652 02:43:07.920 --> 02:43:12.000 So basically, what they want to see is four year 2653 02:43:12.040 --> 02:43:17.079 degree followed by some work. Actually they'll be fine with 2654 02:43:17.360 --> 02:43:21.360 a two year degree followed by some work. Doesn't have 2655 02:43:21.479 --> 02:43:25.280 to be military, work, doesn't have to be could be anything. 2656 02:43:25.360 --> 02:43:26.680 I mean, it just needs to be work. 2657 02:43:27.879 --> 02:43:30.879 Then the other part of this, which is important to realize, 2658 02:43:30.920 --> 02:43:38.959 it's totally different from my world. Everybody applies online. Everybody, 2659 02:43:39.200 --> 02:43:44.879 and so tell the truth when you apply, show them 2660 02:43:44.879 --> 02:43:50.000 what you have done, and then hope for the best. 2661 02:43:50.360 --> 02:43:55.200 Because it's a it's a it's a rigorous selection process, 2662 02:43:55.959 --> 02:44:00.200 and it is you know, the vetting process starts with 2663 02:44:00.840 --> 02:44:03.639 checking to see if what you put online is true. 2664 02:44:04.680 --> 02:44:06.000 Anybody who might. 2665 02:44:07.360 --> 02:44:10.399 Try to make their resume better than it really is 2666 02:44:11.520 --> 02:44:15.040 probably is immediately going to get rejected. So just tell 2667 02:44:15.079 --> 02:44:18.559 the truth, do your job, get it, go to school, 2668 02:44:19.840 --> 02:44:25.479 go to a graduate school. While you're in graduate school, 2669 02:44:25.520 --> 02:44:29.120 get a job that would be associated with your with 2670 02:44:29.239 --> 02:44:34.200 your career, and then apply. What's the worst that can happen, right, 2671 02:44:35.079 --> 02:44:38.200 you know, I mean really, but it's not a secret. 2672 02:44:38.280 --> 02:44:41.600 You just go online to CIA dot gov or FBI 2673 02:44:41.719 --> 02:44:44.799 dot gov. It's right there, the applications right there. 2674 02:44:44.920 --> 02:44:45.200 Do it. 2675 02:44:45.479 --> 02:44:48.520 And in your case, you did apply, you got rejected, 2676 02:44:48.600 --> 02:44:50.879 and then later on, when you weren't even looking, they 2677 02:44:51.440 --> 02:44:54.079 called you. So it's sort of it's one of those 2678 02:44:54.079 --> 02:44:57.280 things where just because you get told no the first time, like, 2679 02:44:57.360 --> 02:45:00.479 keep living your life and gaining the experience, keep doing things. 2680 02:45:01.040 --> 02:45:03.879 Absolutely, and I can understand now looking back on it, 2681 02:45:03.920 --> 02:45:07.040 why they weren't interested in me in nineteen seventy eight 2682 02:45:07.159 --> 02:45:10.040 because I'd gone to graduate school and I had just 2683 02:45:10.159 --> 02:45:16.159 started working period. Right I was in Wyoming working, but 2684 02:45:16.639 --> 02:45:19.399 I hadn't really proven that I could actually hold a 2685 02:45:19.520 --> 02:45:22.159 job all that well. I mean i'd proven that I 2686 02:45:22.159 --> 02:45:24.799 could go to school. Well that's great, lots of people 2687 02:45:24.920 --> 02:45:29.280 go to school. And you're right, it wasn't until after 2688 02:45:29.360 --> 02:45:31.159 I had been in the army. And of course it 2689 02:45:31.280 --> 02:45:36.639 was just literally dumb luck. But that you know sometimes, 2690 02:45:37.040 --> 02:45:41.559 you know, Louis Pasteur said something that I like to 2691 02:45:41.639 --> 02:45:45.280 use this quote a lot, which is fortune favors the 2692 02:45:45.319 --> 02:45:53.159 prepared mind. Okay, so if you're prepared, then when luck 2693 02:45:53.280 --> 02:45:57.200 does strike, you know, I mean, you're more likely to 2694 02:45:57.280 --> 02:45:59.920 succeeed than if the guy who hasn't thought it through. 2695 02:46:01.440 --> 02:46:05.840 Yeah, JR, I really appreciate you taking the time. I 2696 02:46:05.840 --> 02:46:08.959 know I've kept you like way long, almost like three 2697 02:46:09.000 --> 02:46:12.959 hours here tonight. Again, really appreciate your time and telling 2698 02:46:13.000 --> 02:46:16.959 the story. I hope people check out the mic for series, oh. 2699 02:46:16.840 --> 02:46:18.959 And and the school for the Great Game. Guys, this 2700 02:46:19.040 --> 02:46:23.479 is a really enjoyable read. If like yeah, I am. 2701 02:46:23.440 --> 02:46:25.840 Enjoying that, they'll link to the books is down the 2702 02:46:25.840 --> 02:46:28.360 description of this video so you can find it right there. 2703 02:46:29.200 --> 02:46:32.239 Next week, we're going to have a one to sixtieth 2704 02:46:32.280 --> 02:46:36.280 guy on he flew MH forty seven's for one sixtieth. 2705 02:46:37.079 --> 02:46:40.639 Excited to talk to him on Friday next Friday. We're 2706 02:46:40.719 --> 02:46:43.040 also a bit at the end of an era here. 2707 02:46:43.200 --> 02:46:46.120 We're moving studios, so by the end of this month 2708 02:46:46.159 --> 02:46:48.799 you're going to see episodes in our new studio. This 2709 02:46:48.879 --> 02:46:50.239 place is going to be shut down. 2710 02:46:51.159 --> 02:46:53.639 Jack and I were just looking at emails or earlier 2711 02:46:54.000 --> 02:46:56.280 we've been We've been in here for like four years altogether. 2712 02:46:56.399 --> 02:46:59.479 Yeah yeah, yeah, so and Jack the Smith, thank you 2713 02:46:59.600 --> 02:47:00.520 very much for the donation. 2714 02:47:00.559 --> 02:47:02.799 We deeply appreciate it. JR. 2715 02:47:03.079 --> 02:47:05.479 I would love I know, you split your time between 2716 02:47:05.559 --> 02:47:08.319 two different locations. When the next time you come through 2717 02:47:08.360 --> 02:47:11.639 the Greater New York metropolitan area, like sometimes this fall 2718 02:47:11.719 --> 02:47:13.920 or this winner. I'd love to have you in our 2719 02:47:13.959 --> 02:47:17.799 new studio because you're also a bit of a historian, 2720 02:47:18.239 --> 02:47:20.200 and I would love to have you just sit down 2721 02:47:20.200 --> 02:47:24.600 and discuss the history of CIA paramilitary operations or just 2722 02:47:24.680 --> 02:47:28.319 CIA in general, because you have so much information about 2723 02:47:28.360 --> 02:47:31.440 that and you've studied it so closely, you're so passionate 2724 02:47:31.440 --> 02:47:34.680 about it. I'd love to continue this conversation, you know 2725 02:47:34.840 --> 02:47:35.879 later on in this year. 2726 02:47:36.879 --> 02:47:39.479 Well, I'll be happy to Justin's already invited me to 2727 02:47:39.479 --> 02:47:41.520 come to New York and talk to him as well, So, 2728 02:47:42.200 --> 02:47:44.760 you know, I think we'll make it, make it work. 2729 02:47:44.840 --> 02:47:45.719 I'm not sure when. 2730 02:47:46.079 --> 02:47:49.559 Uh uh, you know, that's a that's the great thing 2731 02:47:49.600 --> 02:47:51.719 about being a mere wretched federal pensioner. 2732 02:47:51.799 --> 02:47:53.399 I don't actually have a schedule. 2733 02:47:54.120 --> 02:47:56.399 Maybe maybe we can have both you and Justin come 2734 02:47:56.440 --> 02:47:58.399 in at the same time. That would be amazing. 2735 02:47:58.760 --> 02:48:02.520 Yeah, uh, okay, guys, well it's been my pleasure and 2736 02:48:02.639 --> 02:48:05.440 uh and and good luck as you move studios. 2737 02:48:05.440 --> 02:48:06.159 That's pretty cool. 2738 02:48:06.280 --> 02:48:08.719 Yeah, thank you. We're really excited about it. And all 2739 02:48:08.760 --> 02:48:10.959 the things that to come. It's gonna be awesome. 2740 02:48:11.719 --> 02:48:12.079 JR. 2741 02:48:12.159 --> 02:48:15.360 Thank you again, and everybody else out there. We'll see 2742 02:48:15.399 --> 02:48:19.760 you next Friday. Have a good weekend okay out here. 2743 02:48:20.440 --> 02:48:21.200 Thank care, JR. 2744 02:48:21.280 --> 02:48:22.040 Thank you JR.