1 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:20,399 --> 00:00:24,039 Radio Hour. I'm Att Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,879 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:29,239 --> 00:00:32,280 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,479 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at fbr LST, 6 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,000 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,079 of course the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:50,200 Our guest today is Charlie Kemosi, Professor of Moral theology 9 00:00:50,439 --> 00:00:54,679 and Bioethics at the Catholic University of America, an author 10 00:00:54,759 --> 00:00:58,719 of Living and Dying Well, a Catholic Plan for Resisting 11 00:00:58,799 --> 00:01:02,600 Physician assists did Killing. Charlie, thank you so much for 12 00:01:02,679 --> 00:01:05,159 joining us, and it's a very important topic on this 13 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:06,680 edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 14 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 2: Thanks Matt. I'm a longtime fan of the Federalist Radiour, 15 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:12,400 so I'm glad to be beyond again. 16 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,079 Speaker 1: Well, we're very, very delighted to have you here. It's 17 00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:18,920 a tough topic to talk about. You've written extensively on 18 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,239 this topic and an extremely important topic because we live 19 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,959 in such a death culture. As a matter of fact, 20 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,120 you write the complex paradoxical relationship with death in the 21 00:01:32,159 --> 00:01:37,560 consumerist West is playing out in ways that are quite dramatic. 22 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:41,319 Our culture is now at a tipping point when it 23 00:01:41,359 --> 00:01:45,359 comes to physician assisted killing. I think I know exactly 24 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:47,519 what you mean, but please explain. Elucidated. 25 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,239 Speaker 2: So, especially as the culture is secularized, and especially as 26 00:01:54,359 --> 00:01:59,359 medicine as secularized, we've lost a sense of what actually 27 00:01:59,359 --> 00:02:02,359 makes people thataluble a foundational question like what is it 28 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,079 that gives us dignity, that gives us fundamental equality? And 29 00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:08,879 in light of that, what we end up with is 30 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,080 a situation where we kind of have the remnants of 31 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,599 a Christian ethic in many places we sort of still 32 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:19,479 hold on to it. I was on Tucker Carlson's podcast recently. 33 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,400 I use the example of cut flowers, right, like we 34 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,680 kind of You can cut the flowers from their foundations, 35 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,719 from their roots, and they can still be beautiful and 36 00:02:29,199 --> 00:02:31,800 vibrant for a while, but once you cut them from 37 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,680 that foundation, they're going to die. And what I see 38 00:02:34,759 --> 00:02:37,599 happening all over this country, and it hasn't happened fully yet, 39 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,639 is the fact the dying of this foundation of human dignity. 40 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,400 And so we can imagine that. You know, hey, if 41 00:02:44,439 --> 00:02:49,719 you are I've lost your autonomy, if you've lost enjoyable activities, 42 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,120 if you feel like your life is not valuable. In 43 00:02:53,159 --> 00:02:55,960 the Netherlands, they're talking about legalizing it for people who 44 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,120 are just quote unquote tired of life. Yes, tragic, tragic, right, 45 00:03:01,159 --> 00:03:03,199 And so certain states, as you may know, in the 46 00:03:03,319 --> 00:03:08,400 United States have legalized this, some including interestingly blue progressive states, 47 00:03:09,599 --> 00:03:12,240 rejecting and still holding on to this concept of human dignity. 48 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,719 But one of the central arguments I make in the 49 00:03:14,719 --> 00:03:17,919 book is unless we really hold on to that Christian 50 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,240 concept of human dignity, that it's a theological concept, we 51 00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:24,360 simply won't be able to push back on what's coming. 52 00:03:24,759 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: Well, you're right a lot about that. In fact, you 53 00:03:27,319 --> 00:03:31,039 have a book on the throwaway culture, throwaway society, and 54 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,400 that's I think that sums it up where we are 55 00:03:34,439 --> 00:03:41,719 in twenty twenty five. Everything is instant gratification through technology. 56 00:03:42,719 --> 00:03:49,080 AI is, you know, pushing us past our humanity. And 57 00:03:49,199 --> 00:03:53,360 the worst part of it all as you delve into 58 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:58,120 this is the death of the spirit, death of the 59 00:03:58,159 --> 00:04:05,240 spiritual connection that seems to be to me driving this 60 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,400 death culture. In the main. 61 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:14,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, because we're meaning making creatures, we're value laid in creatures. 62 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,360 We're not going to be able to get rid of 63 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:20,480 that part of ourselves. So when we extricate the spiritual, 64 00:04:20,639 --> 00:04:22,920 we extricate the theological. It's not as if we have 65 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,560 I mean, except for a very rare, disturbed person. It's 66 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,879 not as if people have no meaning or no values. 67 00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:32,800 In fact, what we've and you read the word consumerist, 68 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,240 I think that's probably the uniting factor in all these things, right, 69 00:04:36,759 --> 00:04:40,000 the sense of value coming from what it can produce 70 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,079 in the marketplace. And for those who want to consume, 71 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,120 if you have something to offer, then your life is valuable. 72 00:04:48,759 --> 00:04:50,759 If he has something to offer in that realm. If 73 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,439 you have nothing to offer, or if God forbid, you're 74 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,639 a net burden when it comes to that, then maybe 75 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,800 you have a a duty to die. A phrase that 76 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,480 we've heard in bioethics for many years now is the 77 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,199 right to die quickly becomes the duty to die. And 78 00:05:09,399 --> 00:05:14,040 if you ask people who especially in Oregon, who've had 79 00:05:14,079 --> 00:05:17,600 this for so long since the nineties, if you ask them, 80 00:05:17,759 --> 00:05:20,040 you know, what are the main reasons why you're a 81 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,920 questing physician? Assisted killing? I get into more of this 82 00:05:22,959 --> 00:05:25,879 if you like. But the bottom line is, you know, 83 00:05:26,079 --> 00:05:29,439 fear of pain and suffering is not really driving this 84 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,120 at all. One of the most important reasons people request 85 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,959 physician assistant killing is the fear of being a burden 86 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,240 on others, right, And this is consumerist language. This is 87 00:05:39,319 --> 00:05:43,639 language about you know, you know, my value comes from 88 00:05:43,639 --> 00:05:46,240 my not being a burden on you or the society. 89 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,759 But that's if anything, in Christianity, it's inverted, right. Those 90 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,839 who are quote unquote the most burdensome are actually have 91 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,279 the most value. Those those who are the most unlovable 92 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,959 are those were called to love the most and that 93 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,120 Christ's holy is present in them in a special way. 94 00:06:02,199 --> 00:06:04,920 And again, unless we can somehow capture this, and I 95 00:06:04,959 --> 00:06:08,000 think there is reason to think that we could, we're 96 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,000 just going to continue down this throwaway society that sees 97 00:06:11,079 --> 00:06:13,759 people as things to be discarded when they lose their 98 00:06:13,959 --> 00:06:16,360 consumers value, their value in the marketplace. 99 00:06:17,079 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: That's interesting on so many different levels, and you've had 100 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,079 a chance, and others in your field of bioethics have 101 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:30,360 had the opportunity to really explore this. Unfortunately, but this 102 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:35,560 is what we're dealing with. You know, generation plus of 103 00:06:35,639 --> 00:06:39,759 assisted killing in the state of Oregon. And I look 104 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:44,839 at what about a dozen assisted killing states in this country, well, 105 00:06:44,879 --> 00:06:49,000 at least eleven in the district of Columbia. Most of 106 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,399 these states are out west. Why do you think that is? 107 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that. I've noticed that too. 108 00:06:57,519 --> 00:07:00,319 It's also interesting to note, isn't I be curious about 109 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:05,800 your views on this? You know, these are generally, you know, 110 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,639 we sort of call them blue states or progressive states, 111 00:07:08,639 --> 00:07:11,439 but a number of blue and progressive states on the 112 00:07:11,439 --> 00:07:15,199 East Coast have not done this. In fact, they've rejected it. Connecticut, 113 00:07:15,279 --> 00:07:19,040 for instance, has rejected physician assistant suicide now for fourteen 114 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,360 years in a row. Maryland I think ten or eleven 115 00:07:23,519 --> 00:07:26,399 years in a row. New York until this year, had 116 00:07:26,439 --> 00:07:29,560 resisted it a decade as well. And Kathy Oakle has 117 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,600 not signed the Billy Head. It's interesting to see what 118 00:07:31,639 --> 00:07:35,040 she's actually doing here. But yeah, so back to your 119 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,279 original question, which is these You know, we had Oregon, 120 00:07:38,319 --> 00:07:41,279 we had Washington, and then we had the famous at 121 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:42,959 least in my world. I don't know if you remember 122 00:07:43,199 --> 00:07:46,480 your listeners will remember at the Brittany Maynard case, the 123 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,399 oh sure, the young woman who had a horrible brain tumor, 124 00:07:50,439 --> 00:07:55,079 and you know, everyone just rightly had terrible sympathy for her, Yes, 125 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,519 and she said I have to go to Oregon to 126 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,439 i myself essentially, and that prompted a well funded public campaign, 127 00:08:05,319 --> 00:08:09,000 assisted in part by Campassion and Choices formerly a Hemlock society, 128 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,439 to really use her in her story to change this, 129 00:08:14,639 --> 00:08:17,160 and California as a result did change it. And my 130 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,600 theory on this, and it's more of a hunch than 131 00:08:19,639 --> 00:08:23,360 a well researched theory, is that the kind of sort 132 00:08:23,399 --> 00:08:28,000 of independent minded, like autonomous, clear yourself up by your 133 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,079 own bootstraps image that the United States has sort of 134 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,960 overall is particularly present even in you know, in a 135 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,519 particular way in the West, right, people still have a 136 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,000 kind of Western ideal about that, even in deep blue states. 137 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,399 And of course that's the language that's used in most contexts, 138 00:08:46,639 --> 00:08:49,639 including I'm open minded to your listeners who may disagree 139 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,000 with me on this topic. By the way, you know, 140 00:08:52,159 --> 00:08:57,120 this idea that is regularly brought forth as the first 141 00:08:57,279 --> 00:08:59,799 argument is who is anyone to tell me what I 142 00:08:59,799 --> 00:09:02,360 can do with my body right and my life and 143 00:09:02,399 --> 00:09:05,559 my death right. This is just an individual's right to 144 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,240 decide however they want, you know, with regard to this, 145 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,559 and I think that's my Again, it's more of a 146 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,720 hunch than a well researched theory. My hunch is that 147 00:09:14,799 --> 00:09:17,879 out west that tends to play better, and on the 148 00:09:17,879 --> 00:09:21,360 East coast maybe there's a bigger sense of well, yes, 149 00:09:21,639 --> 00:09:23,559 that's true as far as it goes, but we also 150 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,440 have duties to the broader culture, and a lot of 151 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,039 these people who are going to feel coerced to do 152 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,279 this don't in fact have autonomy. This is the big 153 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,879 argument of the disability RICE groups. You say, well, you 154 00:09:34,919 --> 00:09:38,320 guys are talking about autonomy and freedom and choice. That's 155 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,480 not the experience of so many disabled people who in 156 00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:43,600 fact do feel like burdens, right, who are made to 157 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,480 feel like burdens in many ways. And they're the best. 158 00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:50,159 I mean, I don't see any example of any other 159 00:09:50,519 --> 00:09:54,120 any better resistor or physician assisted killing the disability RICE community. 160 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,200 They've just been absolutely heroic on this. 161 00:09:57,159 --> 00:09:58,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I couldn't agree with you more. I think 162 00:09:58,919 --> 00:10:04,240 that spirit of individuality that made this country so great 163 00:10:04,399 --> 00:10:08,919 also plays out in the argument of self governance, and 164 00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:12,399 to this degree, down where it should be to the 165 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:18,480 individual that said when they make the argument as the 166 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:23,279 individualistic do, and I couldn't agree with the more on 167 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,440 so many things and self governance, they make the argument, 168 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:30,320 who are you to tell me what I can do 169 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:36,440 with my body? That is where your book particularly comes in, 170 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:42,879 because the who in this is for Christians, our Lord 171 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,600 and our Savior and the God of all. That's really 172 00:10:47,639 --> 00:10:52,919 what it comes down to. But I think it's we've 173 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,080 lost so much of that because we've lost so much 174 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:57,720 faith in this country. 175 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, including very basic things that only a generation or 176 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,840 two ago would have been taken for granted, like even 177 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:09,399 to use a fancy academic word, the anthropology or vision 178 00:11:09,399 --> 00:11:13,120 of the human person has changed. Once theology exits, once 179 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,519 faith exits, because we talk and this is very much 180 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,519 present in the AI and transhumanist understanding of the human person. 181 00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:23,440 That's so nefarious in my view. We now talk about 182 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:28,279 having a body like we sort of have a smartphone, 183 00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:32,679 or we have a messenger bag, or we have a 184 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,879 wallet or something, as if it's this added thing that 185 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,279 is like interchangeable. I've heard the phrase meat lego gnosticism 186 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,000 use more and more to describe this, like we just 187 00:11:45,039 --> 00:11:47,399 have meat legos that we can move around, if we 188 00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:49,759 decided we're a different gender, or you know, if we 189 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,600 just you know, for any reason at all. Like it's 190 00:11:51,639 --> 00:11:53,720 just again, it's all about the individual who can do 191 00:11:53,759 --> 00:11:56,679 whatever they want with their body. But of course, if 192 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,279 you're a Christian, you believe that you don't have a body, 193 00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:02,320 that you are a body, right, that your soul and 194 00:12:02,399 --> 00:12:06,200 body are deeply connected in a way that, for tradition, 195 00:12:06,519 --> 00:12:10,039 ever since the ancient Church thought about this is called 196 00:12:10,039 --> 00:12:13,120 a hylomorphic connection. The soul is the form of the body. 197 00:12:13,399 --> 00:12:15,639 You don't have one without the other. And so when 198 00:12:15,639 --> 00:12:17,720 we talk about having bodies and you can do whatever 199 00:12:17,759 --> 00:12:20,399 you want with your body, it's a fundamental misunderstanding. It's 200 00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:25,000 also misunderstanding because the body that you quote unquote have 201 00:12:25,279 --> 00:12:29,320 isn't yours. It's a gift from God. Right, you are 202 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,720 given a gift, and it's not for you to do 203 00:12:32,879 --> 00:12:35,879 whatever you want with this body. Quite the contrary. Right, 204 00:12:35,919 --> 00:12:38,120 there are all sorts of things, and this is well 205 00:12:38,159 --> 00:12:40,679 played out in the abortion debate. There are all sorts 206 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,320 of things you can do with your body that are 207 00:12:42,919 --> 00:12:45,440 totally illegitimate because it isn't for you just to do 208 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,320 whatever you want with There are but again, we have 209 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,919 a culture where it's in some ways I think we 210 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,840 might be having a little bit of a revival. But 211 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,519 for decades now we've had a culture which has been 212 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,279 really hesitant to even have those kinds of discussions because again, 213 00:13:01,159 --> 00:13:03,679 you know, it's in every individual for themselves get to 214 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:12,919 decide this, and who are we to impose something onto them? 215 00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 3: Is your money actually working for you? The Watchdout on 216 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:19,399 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps 217 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,080 unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how 218 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,840 it affects your wallet. The purchasing power of the dollar 219 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:28,399 has dropped over the last thirty years by over fifty percent, 220 00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:30,799 yet the total return in the stock market is up 221 00:13:30,879 --> 00:13:34,120 eight hundred and seventy four percent. Make your money work 222 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,480 or watch it burn. Whether it's happening in DC or 223 00:13:36,519 --> 00:13:38,440 down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 224 00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:39,039 Speaker 2: Be informed. 225 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: Check out the watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 226 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:44,240 Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 227 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: It is interesting to me back to the notion of 228 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:56,200 where these laws exist, and like we said, many of 229 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,240 them in the western part of this country. But you 230 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:04,360 mentioned the Blue States I have, to date, for the 231 00:14:04,399 --> 00:14:08,399 most part, pushed back on these kinds of laws. Yet 232 00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:12,120 the Blue States are immersed in the death culture with abortion. 233 00:14:12,879 --> 00:14:16,799 What do you think is the disconnect there from one 234 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,840 to the other, because they certainly don't have that same sense, 235 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,399 it seems to me with the unborn. 236 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's a really interesting and important question. As 237 00:14:27,639 --> 00:14:30,919 a bioethicists who focuses a lot on both the beginning 238 00:14:31,639 --> 00:14:34,559 and end of life, I've thought about this a lot, 239 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,799 and I'm not sure I have a perfect answer to it, 240 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,279 but here's my best shot. I think what's going on 241 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,960 here is abortion is so personal for so many people. 242 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,879 There just been, as you know and have discussed on 243 00:14:46,919 --> 00:14:50,799 your show. I mean to call it a massive number 244 00:14:50,799 --> 00:14:53,480 of abortions that take place, since Roe really doesn't describe it. 245 00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:56,960 I mean, we're talking dozens of millions of abortions, right, 246 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,559 and so many people are yeah, yeah, that's the right virtually, 247 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:12,159 and and the kind of pain that abortion causes women, families, husbands, boyfriends, partners, hookups, 248 00:15:13,799 --> 00:15:17,799 parents is just so overwhelming that I think we have 249 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,399 I'm not the only one to call it abortion distortion. 250 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,600 I think abortion is just sort of uniquely a distorted 251 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:27,240 It produces a uniquely distorted discourse, such we can't even 252 00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:31,759 really have a coherent conversation about it, not because people 253 00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:34,120 are dumb or people, you know, I think there's just 254 00:15:34,159 --> 00:15:38,720 so much pain associated with it. It's just overwhelming. I 255 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,600 don't think many as many people have such a personal 256 00:15:41,639 --> 00:15:44,120 experience with these sets of issues. I mean many of 257 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,159 us and I just lost my dad last week. Many 258 00:15:48,159 --> 00:15:50,919 of us have experienced with people dying, but not as 259 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,759 much with you know, the the fight and the decision 260 00:15:54,799 --> 00:15:56,679 over physician assist a killing, in part because it's not 261 00:15:56,799 --> 00:16:01,279 legal in many states. So because the the discourse is 262 00:16:01,279 --> 00:16:04,600 not as toxified, it's not as filled with people hurting, 263 00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:07,399 people who just really find it difficult to engage. I 264 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,320 think because of their hurt and pain, we can have 265 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,480 a more coherent conversation about it. So, you know, when 266 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,320 people just lazily make the point my body, my life, 267 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,919 my choice, even progressives, even progresses in deep blue states 268 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:26,759 like Massachusetts, can say, well, that's fine, but actually that 269 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,080 sounds like a libertarian point of view, And what about 270 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,200 social justice concerns? Right? What about how this affects vulnerable 271 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,080 populations like disabled populations, What about older people who feel 272 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,919 like they might be forced to sort of get off 273 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,840 the train, right if they feel like they're being a burden. 274 00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:45,039 What about deeply disabled children. We've seen this. This isn't 275 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:46,840 quite an end of life issue in the same way, 276 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,000 but we've seen the debate over infanticide related to abortion, 277 00:16:50,039 --> 00:16:53,519 which is also related off into disability. Right, Like disabled 278 00:16:53,559 --> 00:16:56,600 children who survive abortions, how should we think about them, Well, 279 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,559 it's often related to the disability, right, it was spina 280 00:17:00,559 --> 00:17:04,039 bifitter or somebody with Down syndrome or something like that. 281 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,119 They tend to get put into this category. But it's 282 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,000 really the same kind of logic. It was the same use 283 00:17:09,039 --> 00:17:12,079 and throwaway logic. And I think that that is just 284 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,960 more resonant to people because they can see how, oh, 285 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,480 just letting powerful people make choices that's going to end 286 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:21,279 up hurting vulnerable people. And it's true in abortion, it's 287 00:17:21,279 --> 00:17:22,759 true at the end of life. But I think we 288 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:25,200 can have a better conversation at the end of life 289 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,559 than we can. It seems totally clear you have a 290 00:17:27,559 --> 00:17:29,680 better conversation about end of life issues than we can 291 00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:30,839 beginning of life issues. 292 00:17:31,519 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: Interesting, I think the phrase quality of life continues to 293 00:17:35,519 --> 00:17:40,799 dominate that end of life discussion. Our guest today is 294 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,640 Charlie Kemosi, Professor of moral theology and bioethics at the 295 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,400 Catholic University of America and author of the new book 296 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,640 Living and Dying Well, a Catholic plan for resisting physician 297 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:01,160 assisted killing. You mentioned it before, and first and foremost, 298 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,839 our condolence is. My condolence is to you on the 299 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,400 passing of your father. I have been where you are 300 00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:11,440 standing today. I think I told you that in our conversation, 301 00:18:11,519 --> 00:18:15,319 our communications in the email. I have lost my parents 302 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:20,400 over time, and it's not easy. It's not an easy process. 303 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,119 But I think about you writing this book, this book 304 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:31,559 now just coming out, and the interesting gift perhaps, and 305 00:18:31,839 --> 00:18:35,240 I don't want to speak for you, but the gift 306 00:18:35,599 --> 00:18:41,200 of writing this book, you know, getting the concepts into 307 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,839 this book, the scripture into this book, and then living it. 308 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:48,359 If you could explain that experience, I think that would 309 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:49,000 be edifying. 310 00:18:51,279 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, Matt has been something else because I put all 311 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:57,920 of my time, not all of my time, but a 312 00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,839 huge amount of time and effort into writing this book 313 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,000 over a year, and right about the time the book 314 00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:06,480 is going to come out, my dad andwers his final 315 00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:12,079 few weeks of life. And in a way, I mean, 316 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,200 there are so many gifts. One important gift was I 317 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,640 had already thought through in a very intense way, so 318 00:19:20,759 --> 00:19:25,440 many things regarding death and what it means to lose somebody, 319 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,519 but also what it means to gain from death, and 320 00:19:29,599 --> 00:19:32,400 what it meant for my father to lose his earthly 321 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,519 life and gain something else. And even in this, in 322 00:19:36,559 --> 00:19:42,240 this life, you know, one of the crucial it's not 323 00:19:42,279 --> 00:19:44,400 the only question, but one of the crucial questions that 324 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,279 this whole discourse puts into sharp relief is is the 325 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,200 nature of suffering? Right? And again, as we've secularized and 326 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,599 we moved towards a more consumeris and even utilitarian understanding 327 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,920 of the good, suffering is really bad, right, It's only 328 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,160 something to be avoided. But in a Christian context, of course, 329 00:20:05,839 --> 00:20:09,359 the suffering and death of Christ is the paradigmatic example 330 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,759 of an event that changed all of the universe. Right, 331 00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:16,799 And and we when we suffer and we die, we 332 00:20:16,839 --> 00:20:20,200 participate in the suffering death of Christ as his sibling 333 00:20:20,279 --> 00:20:23,279 who has been baptized and has become a brother and 334 00:20:23,319 --> 00:20:28,880 sister in Christ. And this was on full display. This 335 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,599 is not some theologian just sort of spouting abstract stuff 336 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,680 in a podcast. I've lived this with my father over 337 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,759 the last few weeks. His suffering and death actually produced 338 00:20:39,759 --> 00:20:42,039 an I mean, drew him to Christ in a way 339 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,240 was really extraordinary. Even people in my family who are 340 00:20:45,279 --> 00:20:47,079 not strong believers could see it. 341 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:47,319 Speaker 3: Right. 342 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: He became a different kind of person. He in is different, 343 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,839 a different kind of life. He was a little bit 344 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:59,079 salty and a little bit confrontational and very aggressive, and 345 00:20:59,519 --> 00:21:01,279 he may may not have passed on some of those 346 00:21:01,279 --> 00:21:06,599 things to me, unfortunately, but in the last several weeks 347 00:21:06,599 --> 00:21:10,440 of his life he was incredibly kind, incredibly generous, and 348 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:16,759 incredibly gentle, not confrontational, totally centered on others. I mean, 349 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,000 I was with him in the hospital the last week 350 00:21:19,079 --> 00:21:20,960 when it was clear that things were not going well 351 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,200 and he was probably enter hospice soon, and he couldn't 352 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,279 really talk very much and much less asked questions. The 353 00:21:28,319 --> 00:21:31,279 only question he asked me during that several days I 354 00:21:31,279 --> 00:21:33,880 spent with the hospital was how is Maryanne doing? That's 355 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,119 my mom. So he was just deeply concerned about his 356 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,680 wife and how she was dealing with everything here. And 357 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,799 this is not a unique experience anybody, and I tell 358 00:21:43,799 --> 00:21:45,519 a lot of these stories in the book, anybody who 359 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:49,759 spends a signific amount of time with individuals and families 360 00:21:49,759 --> 00:21:52,519 who go through a good dying process. And that's important 361 00:21:52,519 --> 00:21:55,599 to know. It was not good my father died, was 362 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,839 not good that he suffered, but it was overall a 363 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:04,440 good death. This happens all the time. But there's really 364 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,640 only the only way it really makes sense, I think anyway, 365 00:22:08,279 --> 00:22:10,440 is if you put it in a theological key. Otherwise 366 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,319 it's really really difficult to make sense of. 367 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: It, no doubt about it. And you know that is 368 00:22:15,519 --> 00:22:18,920 the notion of your book here, you know, the core 369 00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:24,680 of it, how to Die Well. And it's an interesting 370 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,000 turn of phrase. I mean, I can just share with 371 00:22:27,039 --> 00:22:31,680 you my experience of back in late two thousand and 372 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:36,039 eight when my dad, love him dearly. I mean, he 373 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,839 was in a hospital. We were told that he had 374 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,400 maybe a couple of days, if not hours to live, 375 00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:48,000 and they were absolutely right about that. He had suffered 376 00:22:48,039 --> 00:22:52,039 and had pain for some time. And I just I 377 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:58,559 remember him when cousins and uncles were in the hospital 378 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:04,119 room and uh they were, you know, uh chatting and 379 00:23:04,519 --> 00:23:08,559 getting a little bit loud I know my dad always 380 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,480 loved conversing. He always loved being in places and talking 381 00:23:13,519 --> 00:23:17,319 to people. My mom said, quiet down, guys, quiet down, 382 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,319 Papa is trying to rest. And I heard him say 383 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:22,880 it was one of the last, one of the few 384 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,319 last things that he said. He said, no, no, I 385 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:31,519 love to hear their voices. And my dad taught me 386 00:23:31,799 --> 00:23:34,839 so many things in my life, but he taught me 387 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,640 how to die. Well, that's my own personal experience. What 388 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:39,240 is it? 389 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:46,279 Speaker 2: How is it? How do you die? Well? The complicated 390 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,720 question that has a complicated answer, and I essentially spent 391 00:23:50,799 --> 00:23:52,880 a book trying to answer it. Though it's not a 392 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,759 long book for those of them might want to buy it, 393 00:23:55,119 --> 00:24:02,240 under two hundred pages. I think the experience that at 394 00:24:02,319 --> 00:24:06,920 least I can glean from your father's death and mind 395 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,079 that are very similar is family was all around them. 396 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:17,759 And that was the case for us too. We had 397 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,480 kids and grandkids and spouses, and everybody would say, you know, 398 00:24:23,519 --> 00:24:26,359 when a different child or grandchild arrive, they'd say, oh, 399 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,559 this person's here, Dad, this other person is here, Dad. 400 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,359 And he was able to you know, it was hard 401 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,200 for him to talk, and he was in and out, 402 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,640 but you know, he was able to say, oh, thank 403 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,720 you for coming. Oh, I can't believe you're here. Was 404 00:24:38,759 --> 00:24:44,759 such a long way. And it sounds like your father 405 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,319 was also surrounded by family at the time of his death. 406 00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:51,839 That is unfortunately not a normative experience for many people. 407 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:58,680 And we pushed death out of our social consciousness and 408 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,559 sometimes our literal space. Is right, we just push people 409 00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:07,319 even into these horrific so called care homes run by 410 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:13,160 often companies that are purchased up by investors who are 411 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,400 using it purely as a money making opportunity, who hire 412 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:22,640 the minimum staff necessary to make money. And these people 413 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,839 often die and incredible loneliness, despair, sometimes in their own fezis, 414 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,440 sometimes with bed sores, sometimes with nothing to do really 415 00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:35,359 all day long, but watch a television that they can't 416 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:40,319 really hear very well or understand. And one of the 417 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,039 key points I make in the book is we have 418 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,079 to bring death back into the home. We have to 419 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,920 bring death back in the dying process, and so maybe 420 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,359 most importantly the dying process, and it used to be different. 421 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,359 One of the things I guess a lot of people knew, 422 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,119 but I didn't know. But writing the book helped remind 423 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,240 me of or learned for the first time. I don't know, 424 00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:06,319 was that when we use the phrase funeral parlor, which 425 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,359 actually there aren't a lot of funeral parlors as much 426 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:09,839 as they used to be. People don't even want to 427 00:26:09,839 --> 00:26:13,599 do that anymore. So I want to push death as 428 00:26:13,599 --> 00:26:17,319 far away from their social consciousness as possible. That comes 429 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,839 from a time in which the bodies were actually laid 430 00:26:20,839 --> 00:26:23,519 out in the parlor of the home, right right front 431 00:26:23,559 --> 00:26:29,200 of the home, where of course everyone in the whole family, 432 00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:31,880 from the youngest child to the oldest person in the family, 433 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,640 would engaged body, be around the body, welcome well wishers 434 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:42,000 and fellow mourners into the parlor to share stories and 435 00:26:42,039 --> 00:26:46,240 to hug and cry and just be there for each 436 00:26:46,279 --> 00:26:49,279 other right as a community. That's the kind of thing now. 437 00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:51,279 I don't know if we need to totally recover everything 438 00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:54,240 about that time, but the general point is death was 439 00:26:54,279 --> 00:26:56,880 not this thing that we pushed off into places where 440 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,640 we didn't want to confront it. I mean, it's an 441 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,680 astonishing it astonishing. I I don't know if this is 442 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,160 a good example to use, but I sometimes, you know, 443 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,400 geek out with Marvel movies and whatever, and I saw 444 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,279 the opening to the Deadpool and Wolverine movie. I don't 445 00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:13,599 know if you've seen it or any of your listeners 446 00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:17,559 have seen it, but it's this unbelievable orgy of death 447 00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:20,880 right and and it's and it's almost it is meant 448 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,039 to be sort of humorous. It's that it's that orgiastic 449 00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:25,799 of a of a I don't need to explain this 450 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,880 the thing, but that to have a culture that has 451 00:27:29,079 --> 00:27:32,359 that movie make I think it made a billion dollars right, Uh, 452 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,559 open to that, But then have a at the same time, 453 00:27:35,599 --> 00:27:40,200 a culture that cannot possibly imagine that that that that 454 00:27:40,279 --> 00:27:43,440 moment of laying out the body in a funeral parlor 455 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,400 and having neighbors come to pay respects is all by itself. 456 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,319 A major part of the problem here is people, once 457 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,759 confronted with death, imagine, well, I don't want any of that, 458 00:27:51,799 --> 00:27:54,079 and I don't want to inflict that on my family 459 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,279 or my community. I just want out. I just I 460 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:58,240 just want this other thing. 461 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: Well, Seinfeld, I think had perhaps one of the truest 462 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,640 jokes about all of that all time, doing his stand up. 463 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 2: For you Know. 464 00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:13,559 Speaker 1: One of the episodes of Seinfeld, he began by saying, 465 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,720 you know. According to a study, more people are afraid 466 00:28:19,599 --> 00:28:24,240 of public speaking than they are of death. And he said, 467 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,160 so based on that, you would rather be giving the 468 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,119 eulogy than you know, rather be in the coffin than 469 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:38,119 giving the eulogy. But that's not you know that it's 470 00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:41,279 there is something to that. But you're right, this fear 471 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,960 of death in a death culture, immersed by so much 472 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,359 death and dying. I mean, we just got through a 473 00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:54,799 killing season of COVID and it really brought that home. 474 00:28:54,839 --> 00:28:57,599 I think of as you mentioned movies, the beginning of 475 00:28:58,119 --> 00:29:00,599 Saving Private Ryan. You want to talk about an orgy 476 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,799 of death, you know that's not fantasy. You know, the 477 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,720 storming of Normandy was real and thousands of men perished 478 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,519 on that day. You know, in World War Two we've 479 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:21,880 lived through, you know, within our lifetimes, major events, cataclysmic events, 480 00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:26,640 death events. But with all of that in context, when 481 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,559 you said, in your right, and it's so sad, so 482 00:29:29,599 --> 00:29:34,279 many people languishing away in these nursing homes or hospice care, 483 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:39,640 whatever it is. And if there aren't in so many cases, 484 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,240 there aren't family, there aren't connections around. I know that 485 00:29:43,279 --> 00:29:47,119 there are a lot of people listening to our conversation 486 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,880 today saying, oh my goodness, I never want to go 487 00:29:50,119 --> 00:29:55,880 like that, And so that concept is behind this assisted 488 00:29:56,279 --> 00:29:59,839 killing idea, along with I never want to be a burden. 489 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,839 I never want to suffer is up there too, and 490 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,400 I never want to languish in one of these places. 491 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,759 So I have an option here. How do you how 492 00:30:10,759 --> 00:30:12,960 do you go up against that? Because that is a 493 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,119 very understandable human response. 494 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. I explicitly focus on that very argument throughout 495 00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:24,960 the book that and it's one of in some ways, 496 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,240 it's the motivation for writing the book, because I am 497 00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:31,559 the first person in line to make physician assisted killing 498 00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:34,039 a legal and that we need to work politically to 499 00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:38,799 accomplish that. But there's there's a demand, not just a 500 00:30:38,839 --> 00:30:42,119 supply question here too. We have to focus on the demand, 501 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,000 and what you just described is the primary going to 502 00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:46,480 If it isn't now, it is going to be the 503 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,559 primary demand. People look into their future, especially if they're 504 00:30:50,599 --> 00:30:53,119 part of the growing number of dozens of millions of 505 00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:56,240 people diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's or other kinds of dementia, 506 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,279 and they're going to say, wait a minute, I'm going 507 00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:02,200 to lose my faculties. I'm going to be crapping in 508 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,039 my underwear. I'm going to have no one around me 509 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,839 who cares. I'm going to be an understaffed facility. I'm 510 00:31:09,839 --> 00:31:11,559 going to be put in front of a television or 511 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,359 at best, maybe a robot that we're now starting to 512 00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:17,759 see so called robot care, especially in the age of AI, 513 00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:19,640 where we're going to fool these poor people into thinking 514 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,680 they're actually having a conversation with someone. I can understand. 515 00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:27,680 I'm the hope. It's clear. I'm the strongest opponent of 516 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,680 assisted killing that you can imagine. But I can understand 517 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,640 why someone would see that future and say that's not 518 00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:36,720 for me. What else you got? And if this is it? 519 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,440 So we have to we really have to find a way. 520 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,000 I mean, we should do it. We should be doing 521 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,880 this anyway, regardless of any fight over physician assisted killing, 522 00:31:46,359 --> 00:31:48,240 but especially in light of the fight over a physician 523 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,160 assist the killing. We need to fundamentally rethink how people 524 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,680 who age enter the dying president, the dying process, and 525 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,559 then die, how that all works out in terms of 526 00:31:59,599 --> 00:32:03,720 welcome them into our communities. Well, Francis, whatever you think 527 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,880 of them, had a really really important understanding of how 528 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,720 this works, and you mentioned it earlier, throw away culture 529 00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:12,680 versus a culture of encounter and hospitality. That the antidote 530 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,359 to throwaway culture is a counterculture of encounter and hospitality. 531 00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:19,440 And sometimes that means welcoming people into your home and 532 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,240 being in homes that are that aren't what we're normally 533 00:32:23,319 --> 00:32:27,039 used to, this sort of antiseptic, you know, hyper consumerist 534 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,319 home that that can't even imagine a person dying it, right, 535 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:32,960 that's so far from anything that anybody would ever experience. 536 00:32:33,359 --> 00:32:35,640 But I got to tell you that again, going back 537 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,079 to this experience I just had. My dad died at home. 538 00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:43,119 He died surrounded by his children, his wife, and his grandchildren, 539 00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:46,839 and it was a holy moment. It was a wonderful moment. 540 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,559 In some ways it was a horrible moment, but in 541 00:32:48,559 --> 00:32:51,519 some ways it was an incredibly sacred, beautiful moment. And 542 00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:55,640 that house will always bear those memories that that that 543 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,000 that you know, whenever I enter that house, that that 544 00:32:58,119 --> 00:32:59,599 I will be thinking about that moment. 545 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I can certainly understand that. Mine was our 546 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:07,839 situation was in the hospital. I had an aunt who 547 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,920 died surrounded by her family and her home during COVID, 548 00:33:11,519 --> 00:33:14,400 and so I have experiences but I watched my dad 549 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,559 die and I never thought I could do that. I 550 00:33:18,599 --> 00:33:21,200 never thought I was that type of person. But my 551 00:33:21,279 --> 00:33:23,039 mom and I were in the room, we were the 552 00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:28,279 only ones when he passed. And as heartbreaking as that 553 00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:33,519 was for me, understandably, I think we all can understand 554 00:33:33,519 --> 00:33:38,680 that I have taken it as a great, great gift. 555 00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:43,319 There was something so important in that moment, something so 556 00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:50,079 beyond this world of consumerism, so beyond the temporal. It 557 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,720 was really, you know, a moment that I was with 558 00:33:54,920 --> 00:34:00,960 him and with God, and that is something that will 559 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,200 never ever leave me all of my days on earth. 560 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,599 But we are seeing more and more of the death 561 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:17,679 culture in America, so much more acceptable, and it's even 562 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,400 worse elsewhere you mentioned it earlier. In the Netherlands, we 563 00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:27,000 are seeing a movement of assisted killing, physician assisted killing 564 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:36,079 that includes it includes killing someone or helping someone die 565 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,960 who is depressed, someone who just is tired of living. 566 00:34:41,039 --> 00:34:45,400 And that is a really really dangerous place to be. 567 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,920 Where do things stand on that front? And do you 568 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,559 see that moving more and more into this country? 569 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's hard to imagine that it won't 570 00:34:55,039 --> 00:35:01,599 because the logic is pretty clear. Once you say This 571 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,760 is about your autonomous right to do whatever you want 572 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,079 with yourself, with your body, with your life, and with 573 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:10,199 your death, and no one can judge anything about that. 574 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,920 Only you, the master of your universe, can decide anything 575 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,760 about this. Well, then any sort of limitations just logically 576 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,719 don't make any sense. Right. Most of the laws in 577 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,400 the United States that permit this in various states have 578 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,440 a limit of six months. The doctors have to say 579 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,679 you're going to die within six months or two or 580 00:35:32,679 --> 00:35:36,639 three or whatever the particular law is. But that's totally arbitrary. 581 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,760 And early on, relatively early on, Oregon said that is arbitrary. 582 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,039 We want extend it to twelve months. And guess who 583 00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:46,960 opposed it. It was Compassionate Choices. It was the former 584 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,280 Hemlock Society, not because they had any principal objection, but 585 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,840 they didn't want it. You and I on podcasts like 586 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,239 this or others to be able to say, once you 587 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,519 put this in place, there's no stopping it. And so 588 00:35:57,639 --> 00:36:02,039 they've been so they've been so smart, they've been so 589 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,840 on message on point here. But when we look at 590 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,199 the Netherlands, and especially when we look at Canada, oh 591 00:36:09,199 --> 00:36:11,880 my gosh, what's gone what's going on in Canada is 592 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,960 in such an incredibly short time. I mean, there was 593 00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:18,119 just this wonderful I know people can have opinions about 594 00:36:18,119 --> 00:36:20,679 the Atlantic, but there was this wonderful article in the Atlantic, 595 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,480 I think, just two or three days ago, an incredibly 596 00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:26,519 reported out piece that guys deeply into what's going on there, 597 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,400 and it is just offul. I encourage all the listeners 598 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,960 to look this up. One in twenty people now die 599 00:36:33,039 --> 00:36:36,519 in Canada be a physician assistant killing That is That 600 00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:39,760 is stunning. That is a number that we simply cannot 601 00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:43,679 just state and let pass. That is a gut punch 602 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,320 to humanity. And I don't remember the exact date that 603 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,239 it was our year that it was legalized. I think 604 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:50,719 I'm just sort of winging it here. It may have 605 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:56,440 been twenty sixteen, but it's relatively the recent, not like Oregon, 606 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,239 which has had it since the nineties. And so all 607 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,159 of this has been going on in Canada in less 608 00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:05,239 than a decade. Now, I mean, forget forget the numbers 609 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,360 for a second. Just think about some of these stories. 610 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,039 There was this poor woman, she's in public housing, and 611 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:14,800 this shows the asinine arguments about autonomy and this is 612 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,760 not about autonomy. This is about vulerble populations. If she's 613 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,960 in public housing, she can't afford housing because he's in 614 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,400 public housing. Right, That's that's her context. She says, there's 615 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,199 something going on in my housing, right, I have there's 616 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,639 toxic toxic paint, or I'm having some kind of overwhelming 617 00:37:32,679 --> 00:37:35,159 reaction to whatever is going on in this house. I 618 00:37:35,159 --> 00:37:39,280 can't live in this house. I need different housing. The 619 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,360 Canadian authority says, well, I'm sorry, we can't give you. 620 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,920 We can't give you new housing. This is your housing. 621 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,840 But if it's too much for you to bear, you know, 622 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,440 you can request physician assistant kill. Right. Oh man, oh 623 00:37:52,639 --> 00:37:56,000 you believe that all? It's hard to believe that. 624 00:37:56,199 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to believe that that would be 625 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,760 a commune catered option to someone who is living in 626 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:03,800 poor housing. 627 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,679 Speaker 2: I mean, and then so when when privileged populations? And 628 00:38:10,039 --> 00:38:13,840 to be clear, and in this populist moment, I think 629 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,039 this is really important to mention the overwhelming majority of 630 00:38:18,039 --> 00:38:20,559 people who are pushing for this are not people who 631 00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:23,000 can even imagine living in public housing. Right, they have 632 00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:26,920 a totally different life. Right. Here's another here's another example. 633 00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:30,599 A sixty six year old truck driver ended up in 634 00:38:30,639 --> 00:38:32,920 the hospital and he needed because of his back, he 635 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,159 needed a special mattress. They were unable to get him 636 00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:42,719 a special mattress. He developed a terrible bed sore, so bad, 637 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,679 like a bedstre unlike anything. The team that was taking 638 00:38:45,679 --> 00:38:48,960 care of him quote unquote taking care of him because 639 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,280 should never lest somebody get a bedstor like that. No, 640 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,599 it was just incredibly painful. But he said he didn't 641 00:38:56,639 --> 00:38:59,559 want to be a burden on folks, and he requested 642 00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:04,079 and got assist to killing physician. Assistic killing has been 643 00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:09,320 available in Canada for things like here, one person got 644 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:10,719 in and the only thing that was put on their 645 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:16,119 paper was hearing loss. There's a huge debate and it's 646 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,159 not clear what's going to come from this debate about 647 00:39:18,159 --> 00:39:21,960 whether mental illness like depression or some other kind of 648 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,840 illness would be enough. And again back to this point 649 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,880 that it doesn't fit along typical right left conservative progressive lines. 650 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,800 The Toronto Star, which is the largest and most progressive 651 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,079 newspaper in Canada, described are you ready for this? They 652 00:39:36,079 --> 00:39:39,760 describe all of this as hunger games, social Darwinism, and 653 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,719 they are right, and yeah, they are right. It is 654 00:39:43,519 --> 00:39:46,280 our neighbors to the north have hunger games, social Darwinism 655 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,840 on full display, and nobody knows what to do about it, 656 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,519 because again, the case is not any principal case. It's 657 00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:55,519 not based on any principle other than if you want 658 00:39:55,519 --> 00:39:59,320 to kill yourself, you should be able to. And that's 659 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,039 produced a total disaster that is breathtaking. 660 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,280 Speaker 1: I mean it sounds to me. I think about Associate 661 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,559 Justice Potter Stewart, you know, describing obscenity. You know it 662 00:40:12,599 --> 00:40:17,599 when you see it. That's sin, that is abject evil. 663 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,440 I know evil when I see it, And I think 664 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,159 that progressive newspaper in Canada surprisingly hit it right on 665 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:28,159 the head. 666 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 2: This is just it is. 667 00:40:32,199 --> 00:40:35,079 Speaker 1: It is sad and tragic on so many different levels. 668 00:40:35,119 --> 00:40:38,400 It also speaks to I think two things in Canada. 669 00:40:39,119 --> 00:40:48,559 It's assisted physician assisted killing system wholesale and also the 670 00:40:48,599 --> 00:40:53,800 warnings of socialism to the United States of America because 671 00:40:54,159 --> 00:40:56,800 they can't even get a mattress for this poor guy. 672 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,920 He's got such a bad bed sore because they can't 673 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,199 find him a mattress that they're suggesting that he kill 674 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:10,280 himself or that he has assistance killing himself. How how 675 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:16,719 much farther can we possibly go in dehumanizing life and 676 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,239 death in this world? 677 00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:22,159 Speaker 2: Well, I mean this takes us full circle to the 678 00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:25,440 beginning of the conversation. I think there is very little. 679 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,199 There's no place that we're going to be unafraid to 680 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:37,519 go if we lose the foundational theological values and assumptions here. Right. 681 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,760 You know, on the one hand, you might say, well, 682 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:43,840 what is who cares about a sixty six year old 683 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,320 truck driver who's bedridden and has this incredible bed story 684 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,760 as an agonizing pain and it goes all the way 685 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:51,599 down to his bone, and we have no idea how 686 00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:54,159 to deal this, And maybe if he just wants out, 687 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:59,760 we should not deny him that. Right, you know, there 688 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,360 are are And by the way, we're now getting to 689 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:08,039 the point where, you know, the opinion in places like 690 00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:10,639 in public opinion in places like Canada are are now 691 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,360 changed as a result of this. Only, like I said, 692 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,599 less than a decade. Listen to this. Eighteen to thirty 693 00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:22,800 four year olds. Sixty percent of people in that eighteen 694 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,840 to thirty four year old range in Canada agreed that 695 00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:30,960 physician assistic killing should be available simply because of disability. 696 00:42:31,559 --> 00:42:35,079 Forty one percent forty one percent that it should be 697 00:42:35,119 --> 00:42:37,800 available just on the basis of poverty alone. So if 698 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,480 you are just poor, forty one percent of eighteen to 699 00:42:41,519 --> 00:42:44,039 thirty four year olds in Canada think physician assistic killing 700 00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:47,119 should be available for you. Now, again, you don't get 701 00:42:47,159 --> 00:42:52,480 to that depraved society unless you've really lost the plot 702 00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:54,639 when it comes to what human dignity is all about. Right, 703 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,280 the poor are Christ to us? Right? Christ tells us 704 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,639 that poor person that's me, that marginalized person, that's me. 705 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,519 You don't help that person, you're refusing to help me. 706 00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:08,519 You choose to help the person you are helping me. 707 00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:11,840 And by the way, there's going to be an account 708 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,079 to given of how you did in this regard, right, 709 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,199 Matthew twenty five sheep in the goats, Right, And not 710 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,559 only are we not seeing Christ those folks, we consider 711 00:43:21,599 --> 00:43:28,960 them to be totally disposable. And so again, and I 712 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,599 don't know what you think about this, but I'm sensing, 713 00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:34,199 at least in Catholic world, I think also in some 714 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,239 other contexts. I don't know if it's too early to 715 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,559 call it a revival, but something very interesting happening with 716 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:47,920 young people. The percentage of people going to the highest 717 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,760 percentage of people going to mass every week, going to 718 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,599 church every week in Catholic world is Generation Z right 719 00:43:57,079 --> 00:44:01,800 or Generation Alpha, and it's young people. And I have 720 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,400 a lot of hope about this because that's in my view. Again, 721 00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:09,679 I'm open to change my mind about this, but from 722 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,280 where I sit, the only way out of this is 723 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,679 to rediscover theological under the theological grounding of human dignity, 724 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,159 which goes right down to our founding documents. Right our 725 00:44:19,199 --> 00:44:22,599 founding documents in this country are explicit that we are 726 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:27,000 created equal right and endowed by our creator with our rights. 727 00:44:27,199 --> 00:44:30,119 So it shouldn't be at all controversial to say that 728 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,960 theological understanding of human dignity is at the heart of 729 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,440 who we are as a nation. It is, it has been, 730 00:44:35,639 --> 00:44:39,840 and it could be again. But until we're explicit about this, 731 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,440 until we say, hey, we explicitly need to recover these 732 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,840 theological foundations, it's hard to know where the bottom of 733 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,719 this is. I don't think we've certainly not reached the 734 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:50,360 bottom yet. 735 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 1: Well, at least there is some encouragement because I feel 736 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,639 exactly the way you do. I do feel, and I've 737 00:44:57,639 --> 00:45:01,760 felt this for the past years. There is a yearning. 738 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,400 There is a longing to move beyond the disposable in 739 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,440 our culture, in our Western society, to get back to 740 00:45:10,519 --> 00:45:14,159 something foundational. There is a huge void missing in the 741 00:45:14,199 --> 00:45:17,920 lives of so many people, particularly are young, because they 742 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,719 have been immersed in a movement in the United States 743 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:28,599 and Western cultures for a long time to move away 744 00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:33,920 from the foundational, from the creator. And I think we 745 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,519 are in a world of hurt on so many levels, 746 00:45:36,559 --> 00:45:41,559 particularly in our devaluing of human beings when it comes 747 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:46,760 to living, dying, and death in general. Thanks to my 748 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:52,440 guest today, Charlie Kemosi, author of Living and Dying Well, 749 00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:57,400 a Catholic plan for resisting physician assisted killing. It is 750 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,880 available now and it should be available everywhere. It is 751 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,480 a fascinating look into where we stand today. You've been 752 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,639 listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm 753 00:46:09,679 --> 00:46:13,880 Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be 754 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,599 back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of freedom 755 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:28,599 and anxious for the fray.