Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the show. And Martin willis your host.
And as you can see in the background here those
of you watching YouTube, etc. That I am recording pre
recording during the day. Our guest is in Sweden. I
didn't want him on my show at nine pm our time,
which is very early in the morning for him. So anyway,
Class Fun, I'm so excited to have him on. He's
been on a number of times. I do believe the
first time he was on the show is back in
twenty thirteen. And just a little bit about Class Fun.
He's one of the most respected and influential UFO researchers
in Europe and he's definitely the leading authority on Swedish
UFO history. We've talked about the airships and all kinds
of very fascinating things. But he's been added for over
forty five years since the nineteen seventies. He's very respected.
He's very methodical, evidence based and a wonderful person. So
glad to have him back on the show. Before I
get started with him, just a couple of things. Here
is our blog this week, and let me just pull
that up and it is this is something I had
Mario Woods who's been on the show a number of times,
sent me a clip to a I'm trying to think
what year was nineteen nineties symposium on this. Now, this
is a nineteen forty UFO an Alien Encounter, written by
Charles Lear. He looked into it after I sent him
some information on this. So this is fascinating because you know,
when it comes to the modern UFO, you know, sightings
and encounters, we you know, just tend to think of
nineteen forty seven onward. And so this happened back in
nineteen forty There's all kinds of documents involved of him,
you know, just documenting everything as it happened. So again,
this is a pre recorded show, but I will tell you,
as I do often that when it comes to doing
a pre recorded show, I do not edit anything. This
is just like doing a live show. I will be
in chat also. This Thanksgiving is Thanksgiving here in the
United States. Still having a show here and it's going
to be at eight pm Eastern time, and that's going
to be with two professors Matthew Professor Matthew Sudaegis and
also Kevin Kanuuth, and they are going to be talking
about they get some funding for the unit from their
university to UFO research, which is fascinating anyway. So that's
coming up this Thursday. That will also be pre recorded
because it's Thanksgiving, so I'm going to be recording that
this evening and so but you can stay tuned for
that Thursday night at eight pm Eastern and without further ado,
Welcome class, So good to see you again.
Speaker 2: Oh it's nice to be back party in. I'm very
pleased to be with you again.
Speaker 1: I should say, well, thank you, thank you, And I
know we've talked I don't know, I think six or
seven times over the years. But you know, as I said,
you are such a respected person when it comes to
you know, Europe and this topic and your archives of
the AUF is that what is it called y.
Speaker 2: A if you archives?
Speaker 1: Yes, that's the biggest in the world. I had to
talk with David Marler recently and we were talking about that,
and you know, it's amazing what you have there. And
have you ever measured the linear feet or meters of
books you have there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's oh no, I should say it's four point
three kilometers. What would that be. It's not totally books, documents,
some films and pictures and paraphernalia. It's four thousand square
feet around.
Speaker 1: Around amazing, amazing, And as you see the people who
are watching this live on YouTube, you have you're right
in the background. Are you in that space right now?
Speaker 2: Or is this is my own home? It's like a
small af you. I have ten thousand books here and
the hundreds of files, so it's of a few as well.
Speaker 1: Now, let me ask you something because this kind of
goes along with talk I've had with Dave Marlin. There
are a lot of situations where there are longtime researchers
and you know, you take this case which happened to
you know, someone from Project Bluebook years ago, and there
are things you know ended up in like a dumpster
in a you know, an aestate sale and all that.
So do you have like leads from certain researchers that
are getting on in years and you know one of
has things along, how do you find your material?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. I bring back around two
three hundred kilos two point three ton of UFO stuff
and also paranormal stuff, I should say every year. That's
a huge it's many many palettes.
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, And.
Speaker 2: I mean it caused that contact with people all around
Europe and also in the US, but mostly in Europe
and in Great Britain of course, so I know when
people are pausing or when things are nearly going to
the dumpster. We have been too late, of course sometimes,
but we have also been right on time many many times.
We saved the Flying Sauce Review files many years ago,
which is one of the largest UFO files you can
find in the world. It's fantastic depositorial knowledge and we
have so many different countries. I went to Russia in
the early nineties and I save copies of the KGB
files there. So I'm constantly looking for stuff.
Speaker 1: And is this accessible to anyone that wants to do research.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. We have people coming every second week from
abroad and from Sweden. Every week. We had two guys
from France. Just the other week we had a guy
flying in from Tokyo once for three days looking at
our Japanese files. We have lots of researchers and we
work together with two different universities here in Sweden who
send their students to us, and one of the universities
have a be course in yourpology. This year we are
helping out with that as well.
Speaker 1: Oh that's so great, so great, and you know, it
kind of just shows that, you know, the stigma is
softened worldwide, not just you know it has in the
United States. We consider it since twenty seventeen in the
New York Times article late twenty seventeen that things have
softened up as far as stigma. Of course, there's the
film that just came out. I did a review on
an Age of Disclosure. A lot of a lot of
people are talking about that, and you know, I mean,
for instance of someone that I work with in the
antiques and arts appraisals that I do, she and her
husband sat down and actually rented the movie, and you know,
they're like, oh my god, there's really something to this.
You know, you're not crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I
like to aspect to that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, many things has happened since last time we met
and talked down. It's easier now, I think here in Sweden.
It's been quite easy for many years for us in Europe.
For Sweden and a few are giving lectures every week
around Sweden and it's always full. Of the audience is
also always full. So I giving interviews every week with
newspapers TV radio, and I'm never ridiculed. They're always taken
me seriously.
Speaker 1: And that's that. Since we first started talking, you told
me that they always take you seriously, which I think
is great, you know, I mean, you know what I mean.
In the United States, you'd always hear the X Files
music in the back anytime they were talking about a UFO,
and you know, there was always you know, the chuckling
and all that. And I just uncovered on my YouTube
channel you can listen to the O'Hare incident the FAA
and you know there was a lot of like laughing,
oh UFO, you know like that.
Speaker 2: You know that.
Speaker 1: Of course I was back in two thousand and six,
but still, you know, I mean, that's what a lot
of people have had to deal with for or you know,
decades and decades.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: So when I opened, I told you about this blog
that I have. I told everyone about this blog. I
have nineteen forty an encounter do you have that you're
aware of, and all your filesand things some earlier, you know,
pre nineteen forty seven. A lot of things dating prior
to that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, lots of it, lots of it. We have
of course, the the ghost Flyer the nineteen thirties.
Speaker 1: What did I call them ghost ships? I think, yeah,
we don't know.
Speaker 2: We have the ghost rockets in nineteen forties rockets. We
also have the ghost flyer. We love the world ghost.
Here in Sweden we had a ghost flyer in the
nineteen thirties with hundreds and hundreds of sightings all around Sweden.
So yes, we have a lot of older material in
our files.
Speaker 1: Now I do remember class when to interview, even as
far back as the first time you said that theroduction
thing is very white. When it comes to reports in sweeteness,
that still the same way.
Speaker 2: It is the same. We have very very few reports
about abductions. We have quite a few reports as well
about entities humanoids. I just the other week talk to
a woman who in nineteen seventy one saw a very
very strange kind of humanoid, even two humanoids. They were
traveling on a train. She was bicycling. It's within the
middle of the day and she sees its train coming
in front of her and she stops because it's passing
her path and the very last carriage it's full of
scrap metal, and on the top of the scrap metal
she can see two entities looking for something. And suddenly
the two entities are appearing on the other end of
the carriage and standing in front of her, looking at her,
and she can see they have this very very tight suit,
and they have helmets on very very small heads, extremely
small heads, and the belt and they were holding their
hands at the belt and she felt, really she was
felt fear that she was not because she shouldn't be there.
And after that, those two humanoids were suddenly at the
other end of the scrap pile again, keeping on whatever
they were doing. And she was by sitting away from
the train. So it's a very very strange story. Wow,
very very special.
Speaker 1: Did she notice was anyone else witnessing this that she was?
Speaker 2: No, she was alone. She was traveling to a bookshop
and too get the book. And then she traveled back
and the train was gone, and of course the entities
were also gone.
Speaker 1: And did you actually interview this person in person or
was this over the phone or some.
Speaker 2: Type of Oh, it was several talks over the phone.
She lives quite far away from me, but I got
a very good impression of her. And she she said
that she had another friend that you were telling the
story too. When she came back home, and the friend corroborates.
So she was very, very excited when she came back
and told the story to her. So that's the only
corroboration I could get. I'm sorry to say.
Speaker 1: So, is this basically an outlier? I mean, were there
any other have any has anyone else ever you know,
reported something like this. It's very strange. With the small heads.
It's usually hear, you know, the very large heads, and
you know, depending, but it's very strange.
Speaker 2: It is strange. But I think the red thread that
goes all over the UFO enigma is that it is
not coherent. It's so diverse if you're looking into cases.
I've been into this for more than fifty years, and
if I look into cases, they are so diverse. You
can get anything and everything. So well, why not small heads? Right?
Speaker 1: I Actually I was having a conversation with Greg Bishop
a while back, and you know, we both agreed that
the ones that are really weird, you know, just seem
even more credible. The things that you know that don't
make any sense. It seems like, you know, there's almost
like it's more credible sometimes in the average person talking
about a UFO sading. You know, it's just an opinion.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, but I agree with you. I can give
another story that is even stranger if you want to
hear it.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, I love to.
Speaker 2: Yes, I talked to She was only eleven years of
age at that time. It was in the nineteen sixty
nine seventy around there, and she was out playing in
the snow in the western part of Sweden. The sun
was shining. She was playing in front of her family's house,
and suddenly she saw to the right of her a
glimpse something coming down from the heavens, like small small
flakes of snow, as ssembling to build a house. This
house started to travel towards her, and she saw at
the porch of this house, which was very well built.
She said, there were two people standing, a man and
probably his wife. The man was holding his arm over
his wife's shoulders that were clad in old, very old clothes.
And when they passed her, they turned their heads and
they followed her with her eyes and the house posted
in front of her house, so you can see it
was very very near, just a couple of meters in
front of her, and then it disappeared to the left
and turned into snowflakes again that flew up into the
heavens and went away. Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't get much weirder than that one. You know,
you know you would. Now, here's just theories, you know,
because a lot of people say that, you know, there's
screen memories and things like that, you know, like these
type of things happen with the UFO encounter. Whether that's
real or not, I don't know. But when they talk
about these screen memories, like they thought they were looking
at a deer or or you know what I mean,
But maybe it was a UFO coming down and a
screen memory of making it look like something we'd be
familiar with, you know, a house and a couple and
all that. I mean, just the thought. I mean, I
have no idea, but that's a great one. Yeah, I mean,
who would make something up like that unless they were,
you know, eye on something. You know, really, that's really crazy.
Speaker 2: No. I believe her, I really believe her. I talked
to her quite a lot of times, but she didn't
understand it. She ran into the house and threw herself
at the bed and started to cry. She was so
shocked by what happened.
Speaker 1: Right right, So also there was something that there was
like scientists findings on these is it willow wisps? Or
are these lights?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: This phenomena? What was going on with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very interesting because in New Scientists October the
eleventh issue there was a report about the scientist who
had now conducted an experiment that could explain a part
at least of the will of the wisp mystery, because
so many people have seen those balls of light coming
out of water and marshes or whatever traveling in front
of them, and now these scientists has shown that small
bubbles of methane. Methane is of course created by molding
what you say, sea grass and whatever is on the
bottom of the lake, and when it yeah organics, of course,
when it collides with small bubbles of air, a small
small spark could ignite the methane. So when it appears
at the surface of the water, if you come up
as some glowing square. And this is very interesting because
in the winter of nineteen twenty one nineteen twenty two,
there was an extraordinary part of events in the western
part of Sweden, a lake called Lake Latnet, quite near
the border of Norway. They saw those bowls of light
coming up every night from this lake. So eventually a
scientist went there and he could the first night he
was there, he could see this huge ball of light
three meters in diameter, which is huge, taller than me,
twice the hey to me, and it was traveling and
dividing into smaller bubbles, traveling in between trees, creating long
elongated structures as well. And that is not possible to
explain right now. We could now understand that it could
be created by des ignition from the bubbles colliding, but
how could it be sustained for such such a long time.
Speaker 1: That is the mystery mm and plus forming that's very unusual.
And then you're saying going in between trees, that's you know.
And a lot of people who talked about seeing these
type of things are under the impression that they're intelligently controlled,
you know, that's what you hear. A lot of people
say they do believe the way it was reacting and acting.
I mean, that's I would say. Would you say that
the orbs, I guess you would call them as one
of the most reported sightings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, orbs. When I first got in touch with orbs,
it was from pictures taken by people with flash cameras
or with flashes in their mobiles, and of course that
is just small specs of water in the air or dust.
I can do a picture like that at any time.
I won't hear at my house. So that kind of
orbs that you can get on your camera. I'm not
very impressed of the warps. That more looks like the
will of the wisps orbs, and they are more interesting
and as you said, they look like they are intelligent
from time to time. So we don't really know. If
you read all eighteen hundreds newspapers from the US especially,
you can find piles of observations of balls of light
traveling for minutes, for more than minutes, which is very
hard to explain. And you have the ball lighting, of course,
which is not fully understood either. We don't understand why
ball lighting, this ball of light created bies. We think
lighting in the sky, how it can sustain itself for
so long time, It should evaporate in just seconds, but
it doesn't do that.
Speaker 1: It is very strange, very strange. And you know, I
know lights in the sky is the number one. They
always say that's the number one that you know that
people report and you know I mean, I see a
lot of times I see I've talked about on this
show that a lot of times I'll be in the
hot tub outside and looking up and you know, you
see a lot of you know, meteors and you know,
things like that that are always fun. And that's where
I had my UFO signing, was actually any hot tub
in California. But so, yeah, you're out there observing the
sky and you never know what you're going to see,
but a lot of times it is lights in the sky.
And you know, there's been a number of times that
I've seen something really quite interesting. But I'm always refraining
from saying that. I like to be able to keep
my credibility good, you know, so I'm really careful about
saying whether I had a UFO signing or not. But
I did see something pretty strange that was other than
you know.
Speaker 2: Another thing is that if you look at what kind
of pictures UFO groups are getting from the public, it's
ninety nine percent balls of light in the distance in
night time. I look through a couple of issues of
New Phone Journal. It's all specs of lights. It's not
a single picture of any craft or anything that could
make my heart pounds a little faster, and to UFO Sweden,
we get around one hundred and one or and fifty
pictures every year, and nearly every one of them are
just specs of light. So I think the UFO phenomena,
I think it's several phenomena really are scarce. It's not
very common, because if it was a common phenomena, you
should see pictures, good pictures. We don't.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's it's this before. If I had
a camera right next to me when I had my
UFO sighting, I probably wouldn't have thought to grab it.
I would now, but at that time it was like
a new paradigm, something in my life that I didn't
really think would be so, but I understand. I remember
when we had our first conversation. You told me that
you and your wife were driving back from something, a
party or something whatever it was, and you both experienced something.
And I think what you said is key to anyone
that has a UFO sighting. You asked her not to
speak about it, and you both went in separate rooms
and wrote down what you saw, maybe drew what you saw, whatever.
I think that is some of the best advice you
could give. To anyone out there who has a UFO
sighting with a witness next to you is not to
talk about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. We're sitting in the middle of the night,
was a post midnight or something like that, sitting there writing, drawing,
and after that we spoke to each other.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And you know it's the same you think
about all these major encounters that you have and when
the people are separated, you know. I was just thinking
today about the alleg ash incident that happened in Maine
in the late nineteen seventies and when and that was
a suppressed memory. They all had suppressed memories for about
ten years. And then I think it was Ray Fowler
maybe interviewed them. I can't remember who it was, I think,
but to make sure, you know, he said, don't talk
to each other. You know, but there's going to be
that contamination of you know, because of the way our
memories work. You know, if someone interjects, you know, their
thoughts into theirs, that can trickle over into your when
you're trying to recall something. So it's very important to
keep things separate if possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, we people want to not to
get angry with each other. We want to to be nice.
So if you say I saw a square and I
thought it was a triangle, you may not say that,
you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it may have been a square,
may have been a square.
Speaker 1: And you know you're bringing up another point too, is
there are so many people that I've talked to over
the years that they will be with someone and they'll
talk about it and one person did see a square
and the other person did see a triangle. One person
saws cigar and the other one saw a disc, you know,
or you know, I mean, or one person didn't see
anything at all, or even remember that they saw anything.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's it's you know, I don't know what
that's about, but it's interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's very much a human I think
we want to be like the other guy. We are
seeking people that things like us. We are. We are
getting into societies that are thinking like us, doing like us.
If I if I have, if I'm if I'm voting
to the right, I'm not seeking to go into a
leftist society, of course, I don't tell that. Not the party. Whatever.
We want to seek, what we are to be able
to be what we.
Speaker 1: Are right now, are there any sightings and all that
you are aware of when it comes to mostly Sweden
that we're considered like a high amount of witnesses, like
any mass type of sighting, as they say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one role I think I could say is that
the more witnesses we have, the more likely it is
that it's a mundane natural phenomena.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: If there are just a few, it's more problematic. So
the mass sightings we had in Sweden has always turned
out to be like crashing satellites or bowlights or things
like that.
Speaker 1: And what about There was a Now it may have
not been Sweden, but it was somewhere over in that
general direction where there was an upper atmosphere rocket failure
and it's the most incredible swirl in the sky. And
it was reported with you know what I'm talking.
Speaker 2: About, Yeah, I know what they're talking about. It was
in Norway, but also in the north of Sweden, so
we could see it from the north of Sweden as well.
It was a Bulaga missile. It was a test from
a submarine, the Russian submarine. We knew about it because
the Russians had posted on the Internet that they were
doing experiments at that time, so it was easy to check.
And one of those missiles got the stray because it
got the leakage. It was starting to tumbling like this,
swirling around, and when it swirled around, it created a
very very nice pattern in the sky that looks like
it was drawn.
Speaker 1: It was beautiful.
Speaker 2: I looked fantastic. I mean, it's credible. It doesn't really
look real.
Speaker 1: Right, I'm going to see if I can find that
while we're looking, while we're while we're talking. But as
far as the let's talk a little bit about the
AFU and how was that funded and how did that
get started? I know you are you a co director
or something of that.
Speaker 2: I'm a director for a f you right now, But
I was not the co founder. It was a couple
of my my friends have founded it in ninety seventy three,
and we are funded by around fifty people who are
putting the money into this. And we also have this
a few shop and we had this white Weekend. We
have not Black Friday, we have White Weekend and we
sold for nearly five thousand dollars last weekend. We have
a loads of fantastic books and magazines that you cannot
find anywhere in the world surplus because we have so
many extra copies of stuff, so we are selling that
kind of income for us as well. But we have
no incomes from the community or the state or whatever.
It's only what we can achieve ourselves.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing. And I'm going to post the incident
I was talking about in the show notes, but here
it is up on the screen for those of you
who are watching. I don't know if that's exactly the one,
but yeah, it is. It is. That is rather beautiful.
Speaker 2: It's fantastic. It's like you're painting. But it was happening
in real time, and we got pictures on Sweden as well.
And one thing you should know, this was not the
first time. When I lived in Lulio, which it's quite
near the Polar Circle, we got reports quite often from
Russian rocket launches from Plesetsk, but at that time was
a secret cosmodrome and sometimes their rockets gone astrae as
well and created this swirl, so it was not unique.
It was one of several.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say about a month ago we had
this happened. See this image right here. This was over
Maine and all along the eastern seaboard everybody was seeing this,
but it was basically a launch from SpaceX I believe
it was, but but people were seeing it and it
was all over Facebook. That's the difference between you know,
the early times and now. If there's a mass sighting,
you know, you're going to get all these people that
will post on Facebook. And the problem is you go
back to the sighting we're talking about earlier, you know,
this one in particular, and there's probably a lot of
people that saw that that are were horrified and probably
never found out exactly what it is. It's probably a
percentage of people, yes they saw a UFO.
Speaker 2: They're still speculating about some kind of a time travel
tunnel or to be you know, but it's just a
Russian a Russian missile. And the picture you show me
from the US, I have several pictures exactly like that
from Sweden as well, because when you're launching from the
Vandenberg base in California, the first and second orbits are
pausing Sweden, and when they are losing the first stage
and the second stage is uniting. You can see it
exactly like that over Sweden as well.
Speaker 1: Amazing. Yeah, So yeah, I mean I was actually, oh,
last year, I was again in my hot t top down
in South Carolina and I was out and I saw
the what is it called Elon.
Speaker 2: Musk starting starting charlink.
Speaker 1: Of course, and I filmed it. I do have a
I did film it, but I mean I can totally
understand when someone looks up and they go, oh my god,
you know what is that? You know, it's really astounding.
It's amazing to see like one after another after another
after another, just you know, moving along. It's really crazy,
amazing what we can do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, Martin, I'm a member of the Eurouphonet,
which is European network of serious upologists, and a couple
of years ago we checked our statistics and it showed
that starlings were I think the most prominent thing that
people are reported to any country in Europe that year.
Speaker 1: Wow. Well yeah, so yeah, if you're out there. I
had a friend that was a good friend that's not
into UFOs, and he was he was visiting Sedona, of
all places where a lot of crazy things seem to happen,
and he thought for sure, he was all excited to
finally tell me that, you know, he actually saw a
UFO and then found out, you know, so a lot
of people, a lot of people do realize that, you know,
this is this is what it is before they you
don't go reporting it. But yeah, here's a here's a
good image of that right there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the perfect image of the Starlings.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the one I saw it seemed probably further away,
you know, but you could. You had to look really
hard to see it, you know. But I did get it.
I did catch it on the film. But anyway, so
I would like to talk a little bit more about
you know what I know, I started talking about it,
but at the af you is that what? I'm sorry?
Speaker 2: Is that? What?
Speaker 1: Of course that's the documents. You mentioned that you have
a lot of repeats and things like that, and you
you offer them for sale, will you? Actually, you know,
there are some really good UFO books out there that
I know that people are looking for. And when you
say you have repeat copies, you probably have dozens of
repeat copies, right yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And not only UFOs, we have fantastic copies
of old paranormal literature from the eighteen hundreds, for.
Speaker 1: Example, eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and do you think there's since we're on this topic,
do you think there's a crossover, I mean speculating, do
you think there's some type of crossover between paranormal and UFOs?
Speaker 2: Again, I do think that. I don't think there is
a crossover. I can not exactly pinpoint what it is,
but you can see there are similarities. It's like something
is happening in the part of our world that is
meeting another part of our world. It's not really an
explanation as you can hear, but absolutely I can see
similarities between when people are meeting entities of other descriptions
as well and humanoids.
Speaker 1: And did you write me did you say you were
on with You were on with Jesse Michaels recently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a couple of months ago. First I went
on Norway together with Yes Theory and Jesse Michaels and
his team. We were filming together with UFO Norway. We
were out looking for a crashed ghost rocket that landed
on one day. Yeah, it landed on the lake in Norway.
We have so many examples, you know. This is just
one in nineteen ninety five, I think it was, and
it landed there in July and two witnesses, very good
a man and his son It was in July in
the middle of the day, around eleven o'clock and they
heard this sound and this craft, you must call it
a craft, came flying and then elongated with small things
on the side, turning, landing and sinking, which is the
modest oper andy of the ghost rockets. Really, we have
so many examples. And the thing, Martin, is that July
mid day, nice weather, many witnesses a small lake. That
is the prescription. So we have so many examples like.
Speaker 1: That, but nothing was ever found.
Speaker 2: No, we have been looking for for a few Now
we have another one in the north of Sweden. We
are going back there. I hope next year we have
this radar return. We can see that something is resting
in the mud couple meters down. We must look at
it with another kind of ground penetrating radar so we
can see it in three dimensions and then we can
tell if it's worthwhile to try to get it up
from the mud. So we have loads of things like
that around Scandinavia, mostly in Norway and Sweden.
Speaker 1: Now do you think have people speculated that this was
some type of secret military Yeah craft, but you would
never know until we actually, you know, find something.
Speaker 2: No, we never know and it's Eden. We always think
it's Russia and sometimes it is Russia. But I don't
think this was Russia. I don't think the ghost rockets
were from Russia because they have really tried to find it.
The military at the time, they really tried to find
ghost rockets at the point of crash and they never
never found anything except indentations in the seafloor at past
and see lilies, water lilies and the stones thrown up
on the shore and yeah, stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Mmmm hm. Now just changing gears a little bit here
is there? Can you think of one Swedish UFO incident
or case that you know more people in the world
should be interested in examining it and finding out more
information about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the well known cases for
the world. It's a very very big military operation in
the early nineteen seventies was called Operation Argues and it
followed up were Operation da Kople. There were people from
the customs, the border patrol, there were people from the
police and there were also military people and it was
because of craft were flying from Norway into Sweden. Sometimes
it was aircraft with no insignia on it landing on
very very difficult and very small, small parts of roads
in the forest. But they also saw more ufol like stuff.
And I talked to one military helicopter pilot who in
nineteen seventy five, it was seventh of November, if I
remember it right, he was on alert. He was an
alert because they should be able to intercept within minutes
when the radar saw anything flying from Norway, and at
that time late in the night, he got the alert
and he and his co pilot they lifted the flo
away to a point where this object was heading and
they were flying just I mean, it was fifteen yards
over the forest with the helicopter, and suddenly this object
came flying underneath the helicopter, over the tree tops. It
was snow on the ground. It was nearly full moon,
so they could really see it. It was elongated stuff
like a cigar, no exhaust, no cabin, no fins, nothing,
and the flew away from them. And just now, a
couple of months ago, I got told of the original documents,
which had been a top secret for many, many years
and were to be top secret for another twenty years.
But I got the clearance to read them and to
copy them, and there I found the radar picture of
the incident, and there you can see the helicopter and
this object intercepting. Wow, very very close to each other.
And it's also assessed in the report that the helicopter
and the unknown were nearly hitting each other. So that
was very interesting.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a great one. And they did did
they report any effects at all to you know, a
large times will report something like could be electromagnetic type
of situation with their equipment and things like that, any
type of reporting of anything like that.
Speaker 2: No. Nothing. The pilot said to me, I pulled my
feet up because it's also close. I don't think it
should have helped him in any way, but he did that.
It was so so close, he said. They landed and
the security personnel from the military came and debriefed them,
which was an ordinary procedure this operation. And they asked afterwards,
what did we see and they got the answer it
was a UFO, so they didn't really know what it was.
You can see it on radar. We have the witness
report and we have the documentation. So it happened.
Speaker 1: Now. You mentioned Russia a few times today, and you
know that's I do believe it's the largest land mass
for the former Soviet Union anyway. But so are you
in touch with any Russian uthologists?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And Ukraine. In Ukraine as well, it's harder now
to get in touch with the Russia and you follow
just because they they have great problems to do their work.
One of them left Russia for many, many months because
he didn't want to be enlisted and sent to Ukraine.
He went back and I think he managed to stay
away from being sent to the front. I really hope. So.
I haven't heard from him for a while now. But
the EU followed in Russia is not as as good
as it has been in the early nineteen nineties. When
we traveled to Moscow, I met so many youthologies that
we're giving that we're publishing, magazines, that we do research.
They had libraries, they did a lot of things. It's
very much harder now to do that for them.
Speaker 1: Well, when I've been there several times and I did
my show from there each time i'm there, which is
getting up in the middle of the night to do
it live. But I had a hard time reaching out to,
you know, a Russian ufologist that you know, I didn't
get a lot of response when I tried to reach
I finally found someone, a really good researcher in the
URL Mountain areas, and I wanted to talk you know,
a little bit about Diatlov Pass, you know, not that
I think that was UFO related, but it was still
a fascinating incident that happened there. But anyway, you know,
the only ones that I got ahold of that were
able to talk to were you know, had a problem
with English, like they couldn't you know, talk English. Well,
so that's a little bit of a setback. But I
would wear my podcast UFO shirt and I get you know,
comments from someone, you know, a few people that were
in I.
Speaker 2: Traveled with a fellow friend from uf Sweden who while
speaking influently in Russia, and he had worked in Russia
for many years. So it's not easier for us we
could speak to anyone. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I want to tell you this is I've
told this on this story, this story on this show before,
but I think you would find it interesting. So I'm
riding along at the time with my Russian girlfriend at
the time, with her and her father, and she's telling
him in Russian that she you know that I do
this show on UFO is basically so he starts telling
this story and he's telling in Russian, and she's translating
it to me, but he's acting like it's no big deal.
But he's saying that he was going through like a
mountain pass and all of a sudden his car stall
and everybody's car stall, and they all pull over to
the side of the road and they're getting out and
people lifting up their hood of the car and trying
to figure it all out, and they're all looking at
each other, and all of a sudden, without any sound
at all, this cigar shape thing comes through the pass
above them. There's portholes all over this thing, and it's
just passing through without a sound, and everybody's staring up
like looking at it. And the thing passes through, and
then someone's car starts, and everybody jumps in their car,
and they all started up the car and they drove off.
Nobody talked to each other, And I mean, I just
think that's this is by someone's not into the UFO
topic and just telling this story nonchalantly. Pretty amazing. So
it happens everywhere. And you know, when I brought up Russia,
I brought it up because it is a land mass,
so is China, and you know, you just don't hear
a lot of you know, there's a couple of you know,
really interesting ones you do hear about, but you don't
hear about it a lot. And I wonder if you
hear a lot more about those type of situations in
your position, like incidents in China and incidences and places
like Russia, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been much more, much more seldom now than
before because of the situation. Mm hmm. It's they think,
and they're probably are right that they are eaves dropped
and they are telephone or listening to so they don't
say that much when you when you call them, and
they don't trust the authorities to speak freely anymore.
Speaker 1: So, getting back to the scientific findings, was did they
really come out with anything you know that was changing
opinions on what they were discovering? By what exactly did
they come up with it? I know you mentioned it
could have been like swamp gas basically, right, do.
Speaker 2: I mean the operation I told you about or what
do you think about? Yeah?
Speaker 1: The the I know was the I can Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's a very very solid science. When
it comes to the very small bubbles and the very
small lights that can emanate from the water and going
up in the air, that for sure, it can be
done now. But they have not been able to produce
these big ones to three meter ones three odd ones,
which I told you about earlier. Nobody knows how to
do that. And the same goes with the ball lighting.
You know, you can create very very small pieces of
ball lighting that is sustained for milliseconds, but the real world,
when you look at the real world observations, they are
there for minutes. And I saved the ball lighting archive
that was nearly going to the dump many many years ago,
and I read this one hundred and seventy five or
whatever it is, and they are so fascinating, you know,
so fascinating. They are really behaving like they were intelligent.
But I don't think they are really, but they behave
like that. So I love ball lighting. It's a fascinating phenomenon.
Speaker 1: Right right, And what about earth lights? Do you know
what I mean by those?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. If you have a lot of
tetonic you know, situations there where those would be created.
But is there any reports of what people think are
the earth.
Speaker 2: Lights not here in Sweden and you know, has it
all any Norway? When yes, where you can see so
many strange lights?
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I talked to you Oni Gita Hauger with the scientists
really covers has dollar now and he tells me that
you never see any lights coming down, always see lights
coming up from the ground.
Speaker 1: That's very interesting. I never realized that part of it.
I know, my good friend Chris Leito went there. I
think he's gone there a couple of times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it Hastall and a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: Oh you did. He's a great guy.
Speaker 2: He's a great guy, real a great guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So yeah, that's that's interesting. And they have
these things called sprits. Have you ever heard of those?
That's like lightning coming up. Yeah, that's another phenomenon. So
a lot of these things, you know, maybe just phenomenon
that we don't quite understand and can't really replicate.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've written several books about unusual natural phenomena,
and there are so many not fully understood phenomena out there.
So I'm wide open for there could be things in
nature that we don't understand that could explain the part
of the UFO phenomena. M.
Speaker 1: Now, was there something about Swedish police files? Is that something?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so can you talk a little bit about that.
We have about four minutes left, that's all.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was able to find and also been able
to get copies of top secret formally top secret Swedish
police fight for the security police and from the nineteen
forties and fifties of the nineteen sixties, it's still classified
and you can see there that they were very very
much interested in the UFO stuff. They sent people to
investigate even lights in the sky. They put quite a
lot of money and time into investigating UFO sightings, which
is interesting. I'm not sure if they do that today.
I think they have other things to do in Sweden
right now, but historically seen it's very very interesting to
see that they had are several policemen sent to interesting
observations and documenting them in mine detail. M hmm.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I've had people like Seth Shostak
from SETI disagree with me, but I think when you
have the observers like policemen or pilots or you know,
someone that's they're trained observers and to me. I think
those sightings are fascinating. And you know, it just goes
to in my book that you know, a lot of
things are just plain unexplainable.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I spent some time with the sad Shotstach a
couple of years ago. He's a nice guy. Yes, he
doesn't really know that much about UFOs, of course, but
that's right. And he tried to find a signal from
space for fifty years. The only thing he found was
on microwave oven and some satellite that behave badly. So
it's quite sad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, you know, it's better than doing nothing,
I suppose, But I think it's kind of ironic that
the funding comes in for something like that but not
for you know, what's going on that so many people
are you know, so many people are seeing in our skies,
you know. And I had a debate with him, you know,
years ago when he was very good. He was very
ready for debating the topic. But again, you know, he
doesn't know a lot. He just I asked him, this
is the thing. I said, well, what would change your
mind that these UFOs are really coming here and they're
coming here from somewhere else? And he said a wing
in the Smithsonian. That was his answer. Full of material,
full of crash saucers. But anyway, that's a whole other thing.
Just yeah, we have just one minute. Has there ever
been any report of any crashed and retrieved UFOs in Sweden?
Speaker 2: Lots of them of course of the Ghost rocket Oh yes,
they crashed all of them. Nearly the retrievals. The only
retrievals had been also during the Ghost rocket wave in
nineteen forty six. They found stuff, but titos ordinary stuff.
It post nothing, nothing like crafts.
Speaker 3: So no als is no, yeah, I know, yeah, okay, great,
So if you would throw out where people can find you,
the website and all that, and I'll have that in
the show notes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's CC's UFO dot C or AFU dot.
Speaker 1: Very easy. Yeah, excellent, Klass, you don't disappoint. It's so
great to have you back again, and let's stay in
touch and until we meet again.
Speaker 2: Absolutely Martin, all right, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: All right, everyone, so don't forget this Thursday, Thanksgiving will
be back. Let me put this up.
Speaker 2: How do you like that?
Speaker 1: We'll be back with Professor Kevin Knuth and Matthew Shadegus
and should be a great show, so thank you all
for being here tonight and remember to keep your eyes
to the sky.