WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.520 Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy 2 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:06.799 in the True Story FM family of entertainment podcasts. Never 3 00:00:06.839 --> 00:00:10.679 wonder what bridges the gap between your favorite film genres, subgenres, 4 00:00:10.679 --> 00:00:14.919 and movements. CinemaScope is here to explore these connections, taking 5 00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:17.399 you on a thrilling odyssey through the ever evolving art 6 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:21.039 of cinema. I'm your host, Andy Nelson, and in each episode, 7 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:23.199 we embark on a deep dive into the forces that 8 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:25.679 sculpt the world of film, from the styles you know 9 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:27.839 and love, like Heist films are the French New Wave, 10 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:29.760 to the ones you may not be as familiar with, 11 00:00:29.879 --> 00:00:33.640 like Turkish Yeshelcham or Brazilian Nordsterns. My expert guests and 12 00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:38.039 I unravel the complex tapestry of storytelling, style, and innovation 13 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:41.079 that defines the world of film. As we unpackt the 14 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:45.039 myriad catalysts of change that shape these diverse styles. Whether 15 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:48.079 you're a student of film, a creative professional, or simply 16 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:51.560 a devoted movie enthusiast, cinema Scope is your gateway to 17 00:00:51.640 --> 00:00:55.520 a richer, more immersive film experience. Don't just watch movies, 18 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:59.600 understand them, appreciate them, and revel in their artistry with 19 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:06.799 Cinema Scope. Subscribe today. 20 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:12.000 What's up, Supernatural super Fans. I'm Chrissy Lenz and I'm 21 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:16.959 Nate mcwarter, and we're the host of Gang Gang That Dream, 22 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:22.719 a supernatural drinking game podcast. 23 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.239 It's the podcast where we make up drinking game rules 24 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.400 for our favorite episode of our favorite show, Supernatural. 25 00:01:31.640 --> 00:01:33.879 We recap the episode for you and let you know 26 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:35.560 how all the rules played out. 27 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:37.640 Then we let you know the drinking game rules for 28 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:39.879 the next episode so you can play along. 29 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:44.760 Plus members get every episode early and ad free. 30 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:46.920 With some extra bonus content chit chat at the end 31 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:49.000 of each episode as a member exclusive. 32 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:52.840 So download Gank That Drink, a Supernatural drinking game podcast 33 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:56.079 wherever the finest podcasts are available. 34 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:59.040 And or become a member at true story dot Fm 35 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:00.400 sash Gank Do Drink. 36 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:02.879 And when you're out there in the world saving people and. 37 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:06.319 Hunting things, you know the family business, keep. 38 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:09.080 The Gank that Drink motto in mind, be excellent to 39 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.879 each other and party aryon dudes. 40 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:32.080 Hello and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics Friends. 41 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:34.319 This is the first October in a number of years 42 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:36.840 where we haven't had a new show by Mike Flanagan, 43 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:39.280 and for those who don't know, Mike Flanagan is the 44 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:41.199 person who's given us great things in the last couple 45 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:43.840 of years, like the Haunting of Hillhouse and Blind Manner, 46 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.840 Midnight Mass, Midnight Club, and of course, most recently, the 47 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:50.960 Fall of the House of Usher and Danielle and I, 48 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:53.719 Danielle has been a frequent guest on this show, have 49 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:57.000 been talking about how important his stuff is and wanting 50 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:01.479 to talk about horror and how he approaches horror as 51 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:03.639 a way of talking about the kind of social issues 52 00:03:03.639 --> 00:03:06.159 that we love to talk about on this podcast. And 53 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:07.919 I was just getting ready for that. I remember that 54 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:13.759 Riki Hayashi, my co host on Star Wars, and as 55 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:15.280 we were getting ready for that or a remembered, of 56 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:18.280 course that Riki, our co host here, has for a 57 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:20.319 long time been reminding me that he's a big horror 58 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:22.479 fan and wants to do more in the genre of horror, 59 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:23.960 and so I thought, you know what, this is a 60 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:26.800 perfect time to bring both these folks together have a 61 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:29.919 conversation about Mike Flanagan, the flannagan Verse, if you will, 62 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:32.759 and sort of what he's doing with the horror genre 63 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:35.680 and how that is appealing to those of us in 64 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:40.840 the to talk about Mike Flanagan and what he's doing 65 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:43.800 with the horror genre. So Rieki, let me actually start 66 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:46.199 with you and let me just ask what is it 67 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:48.520 about horror that you really love and that really speaks 68 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:48.719 to you? 69 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:54.120 So I love horror, and I'm so happy we're finally 70 00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:58.240 here talking about it. The weird thing is I don't 71 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:02.000 I don't like horror, like a lot of the horror right, 72 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:06.759 Like I don't like blood and gore that much. Jump 73 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:10.759 scares are when they're done effectively, they're okay, but probably 74 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:13.840 overdone in the genre in general. So it's like, what 75 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:17.480 do I love about horror? It is actually like, as 76 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:21.720 a fan of science fiction, I feel like horror has become, 77 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:26.800 or maybe always has been, such a great reflection of 78 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:31.920 our society and like reflecting it back to us and 79 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:35.800 asking questions about, like what is going on in society 80 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:38.519 right now? Like what are people afraid of? Right? Because 81 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:41.920 that's like horror's fear. What are people afraid of? And 82 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:46.560 how can we create like whether it's like supernatural or 83 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:51.279 just like a human horror figure that represents that and 84 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:55.279 is killing people or scaring people in a way that 85 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:58.040 is fun as a movie or a TV show, but 86 00:04:58.160 --> 00:04:59.959 if you stop and think about it is a reflect 87 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.120 of our society, and that to me like the history 88 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:06.439 of horror, especially like for me, like starting around the 89 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:10.040 seventies and eighties, like you can trace back like all 90 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:14.079 of the scares going around in society and like thinking 91 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:17.319 about like, oh yeah, this is actually a representation of 92 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:21.079 like AIDS was a big one in the eighties, I 93 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:23.279 guess if you go back like more to the fifties sixties, 94 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:27.800 like sci fi horror crossover like obviously like nuclear proliferation, 95 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:33.120 proliferation and fallout, like in movies like them like The 96 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:38.040 Radioactive Monsters Gogita of course, which originally I do think 97 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:42.040 was was a horror movie. So yeah, like that that 98 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:44.759 to me, like I love horror because science fiction, I 99 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.560 think has gotten kind of away from social commentary, at 100 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:51.319 least in like television movies is often just like it's 101 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:55.199 the future and there's like lasers and spaceships, and there's 102 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:58.560 still good sci fi products that are asking questions and 103 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:01.959 presenting humanity back to us. But I think horror like 104 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.360 has has consistently been doing that, So that that is 105 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:07.199 to me what I love about the genre. 106 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.160 Nice and yelle, what about yourself. 107 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:14.560 Yeah, it's kind of on a similar thread to what 108 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:19.000 Riqui says. I love horror because it has so much 109 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:24.920 to reflect and teach about life and also about I think, 110 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:32.600 especially pain and grief and fear itself. Because whenever I'm watching, watching, 111 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:37.399 or reading a really really good horror story, I'm not 112 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:40.839 so much scared. I mean, yeah, it does make me 113 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:42.720 a little scared and a little you know, like it's 114 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:45.560 your adrenaline pumping a bit. But the best of them 115 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:48.800 leaves me more, I think, hopeful, and more with a 116 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:53.519 sense of understanding than it does terror. And I think 117 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.399 that's also why I cling so much to Mike Flanagan, 118 00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:59.439 but also when it comes to like books, to more 119 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:03.160 authors of authors of color, especially indigenous authors. I think, right, 120 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:05.480 some of the best, like some of the best horror 121 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:08.319 books I've ever read, have been written by indigenous authors, 122 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.439 because I think they understand that and they're aiming for 123 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:15.279 that sense of hope at the end instead of just 124 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.639 pure terror. And that's what makes horror to me so 125 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:21.439 good is that it's not afraid to go into the 126 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:23.680 depths of darkness because it knows it's going to find 127 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:27.040 its way back out in the end, and so that 128 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:30.639 I just really appreciate that that kind of power it has. 129 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:32.800 Yeah, I'm really with you there, and I haven't read 130 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:34.959 many of those books that you're talking about, but I 131 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:37.199 think one of the most exciting horror filmmakers today right 132 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:40.199 now is Jordan Peel, who did Get Out and then 133 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:42.120 Us and other things like that which are very much 134 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.879 about which are very much horror, but from very clearly 135 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:49.279 a black perspective, and to explain that in some other ways. 136 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:52.639 And I want to talk just a bit more about 137 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:56.079 this historical point because Riaki, I'm not sure if this 138 00:07:56.120 --> 00:07:58.120 is your experience, but it sounds like we're kind of 139 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:00.439 on the same page. I grew up in the age 140 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:04.160 where horror movies meant Freddy Krueger and Jason and like 141 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:06.600 the Friday the Thirteenth movies, the Nightmare and elm Street 142 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:10.319 the Halloweens, which I think were all about jump scare 143 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:13.120 and being as gory as possible and kind of like 144 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:17.600 gross out as possible, and that's what I always associated 145 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.600 horror with. I remember being at a panel at a 146 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.240 science fiction discussion con that I went to a number 147 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:26.240 of years ago and it really blew my mind talking 148 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:29.079 about how what you're saying rieky about the six seventies 149 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:30.600 and eighties, but even going all the way back to 150 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:33.960 the fifties. I hadn't known this, but apparently because horror 151 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:36.759 in the fifties was seen as so kind of it's 152 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.639 just where teenagers go to drive ins to have on 153 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:42.120 while they make out in cars and whatever, no one 154 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:46.000 paid attention to it. And that included the McCarthy commission 155 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:49.679 and all the Red Scare stuff, so things like Invasion 156 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:52.799 of the Body Snatchers, which is very much political commentary. 157 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:55.559 People started to realize they could get away with this 158 00:08:55.639 --> 00:08:58.000 stuff that McCarthy was going to cut and the blacklists 159 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:00.000 were going to hit them with in any other genre 160 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:03.919 if they did it in horror. And so yeah, I 161 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:06.200 love that historical tradition is still very much alive. And 162 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:09.200 I feel like that's exactly what Mike Flanagan does in 163 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:11.600 terms of in his show. And we'll go into some 164 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:13.360 of these specific questions, but in his shows, I think 165 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:17.200 we've seen everything explored from you know, family trauma to 166 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:20.320 the trauma of abuse, and how in both cases, like 167 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:25.320 the metaphorical idea of trauma, creating ghosts becoming literal to 168 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.840 religion as a scary concept in Midnight Mass and how 169 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:33.480 that all plays out to all the stories in Fall 170 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:36.240 of Usher, which are mostly about like human vice and 171 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:39.519 the idea of where the horrors really the terrible things 172 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:42.759 humans will do, and how that become expressed primarily for greed. 173 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:45.639 So yeah, I just think there's just Plannagan especially seems 174 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.360 really dedicated to this the idea of social commentary. 175 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:49.879 So yeah, let's let's go more into that. 176 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:51.759 And Danielle, you were starting that on that, if you 177 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:53.799 want to talk a little bit more about what it 178 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:55.559 is you think with Mike Flanagan is doing with the 179 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:57.679 horror genre that's so new and interesting. 180 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:02.320 Nat. Why was he does a podcast these days? I 181 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:05.759 forget what it's called, but it's where he and another 182 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:08.840 host go through kind of some horror films and they 183 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:10.919 talk I think with the directors of them and stuff 184 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:14.720 like that. And I think recently he talked about how 185 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:23.320 he no longer ends his horror films or shows with 186 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:27.919 a depressing ending. I think he said since before Hush. 187 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:31.879 He has a film called Hush, which is really really good. 188 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:35.679 I think it's on Netflix, but it just got released 189 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:38.919 physically as well. It has its first physical release this 190 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:42.559 past month, and he said that ever since then he went, 191 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:46.440 he dedicated himself to not ending his horror in a 192 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.639 depressing mode, because in his mind, horror has to end 193 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:52.679 with some element of hope in order for it to 194 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:57.399 be truly effective. And I absolutely agree with that because 195 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:00.399 it teaches a lesson. I think in that case, it 196 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:03.320 gives you something to take from it instead of just 197 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.080 taking a piece of you with it, I think. And 198 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:10.279 so I really like that, and I see with his 199 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:14.120 shows with everyone, we get more and more social commentary 200 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:17.480 slightly different versions of it too, which I think is 201 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:20.919 really great. And a lot of that comes from Mike 202 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:26.240 Flannagan's own experiences. Midnight Mass arguably, in my opinion, his 203 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:31.120 greatest of his series. It was pulled directly from his 204 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:36.200 own experiences in the Catholic Church. He grew up Catholic, 205 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:43.039 and a lot of Zach Guildford's character, a lot of 206 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:48.120 his like wonderings about philosophy and about life and religion, 207 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:52.879 are Mike Flanagan's own wonderings about it. And I think 208 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:56.600 also he used to be or he is, an alcoholic. 209 00:11:56.679 --> 00:11:58.720 I think of recovering alcoholic and so a lot of 210 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:03.679 that went into it as well, well, and just such 211 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:07.919 care because of his personal experiences with it, but also 212 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:14.320 just just you know, general empathy for various parts of 213 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:19.519 society and wanting to show the issues that everyone faces 214 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:22.879 and how it doesn't have to be there. Their horror 215 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:24.679 can spring from that, but that doesn't have to be 216 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:27.200 all that there is. And so I view it as 217 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:31.559 both a warning but also yeah, just kind of like 218 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:32.120 hope at. 219 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:35.200 The end, just to make sure folks know that Guildford 220 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:37.519 he plays one of the one of the main protagonists 221 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:39.720 of Midnight Mass, but many of us will probably know 222 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:41.960 him best as Matt Saracen, and he that's always how 223 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:45.159 I referred him. That's the first big role he played. Ricky, 224 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:46.440 what about for you? A're gonna make some a little 225 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:48.039 more discussions and start just all that back and forth. 226 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.679 But I'm here for you. What was really about the 227 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:52.320 Mike Flannagan shows that drew you in? 228 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:56.519 It's funny, I've it turns out I have been a 229 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.799 fan of Mike Flannagan before I guess his rise to 230 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:04.240 One of my favorites of his is a movie called Oculus. 231 00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:08.399 It came out in twenty thirteen, and I didn't know, 232 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:11.200 like until recently that it was of Mic planning it. 233 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.360 But I remember watching it being like, yeah, I like this, 234 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:15.960 Like this is good. It never really like followed up 235 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:18.960 and like, oh, this is the guy that's doing all 236 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:22.799 of the things right now that I'm also watching and enjoying. 237 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:29.240 But you mentioned Midnight mass being your favorite, I to me, 238 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:33.799 the Haunting of hill House is it will always be 239 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.360 I think my favorite. Planning in it is one of 240 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:40.559 the few shows that we actually just like rewatch over 241 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.080 and over again, probably like around this time around Halloween, 242 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:48.799 because it's just so masterfully made in a way like 243 00:13:49.480 --> 00:13:52.720 a lot of people think of horror as jump scares, right, 244 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:56.879 and like once you know that they're coming, they're less scary. 245 00:13:57.080 --> 00:13:59.399 But then like in the genre, like it's such a 246 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.279 trope you can watch and be like oh, yeah, like 247 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:04.320 they're filming this in a way that a jump scar 248 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:06.039 is coming, so now it's not going to scare me, 249 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:08.519 and now you have kind of like the fake out 250 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:12.399 and the secondary jump scare. There's a jump scare in 251 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:17.320 this in this TV show Hillhouse, even when you know 252 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:21.080 it's coming, it's just like one of the most terrifying 253 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:24.360 things because of like how well it's filmed and how 254 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.559 well the tension builds to that moment. I just I 255 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.480 love the show. There's one episode I think it's the 256 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:35.559 Storm that that takes place in the funeral home, and 257 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:38.200 it's mostly like one take. I think it's like three 258 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:43.480 takes like come together very masterfully and it's amazing, like 259 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:46.000 and I've watched behind the scenes footage of like how 260 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:49.080 they filmed it. It is such a good episode, like 261 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:53.080 just the top five television episode of all time in 262 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:53.679 my opinion. 263 00:14:55.639 --> 00:15:00.840 Yeah, I think, Yeah, I agree. 264 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:03.679 Oh, I was just gonna say I wanted to add 265 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:09.120 really quickly to my midnight Mass discussion because I forgot 266 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:14.080 is that he mentioned because the element of religion in it, 267 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:16.919 and I talked a little bit about how Mike Flanagan 268 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:19.360 drew from his own experiences as growing up in the 269 00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:23.879 Catholic church. But also I feel like there's a stereotype 270 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:27.639 with religion and horror that there's the expected like possession 271 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:31.679 because that's been used for decades with it, and the 272 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.120 kind of like mystical aspects of it and everything. And 273 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:37.480 one thing I appreciate so much about Midnight Mass is 274 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:42.480 that it doesn't have that. It's more it leans into 275 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:46.440 something different, something, in my opinion, a lot deeper, and 276 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:48.759 a lot that resonates a lot more with people who 277 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:53.200 also grew up in the Catholic Church. That pools this 278 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.480 I think unsettling feeling that a lot of us have 279 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.799 had to the surface and examined it in a way 280 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:05.559 that the possession trope doesn't really His possession is expected, 281 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:07.759 and I mean to an extent, it's part of the 282 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:12.559 Catholic teachings and everything. But what he does with the 283 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:17.240 horror that he chooses to use instead is slightly less expected, 284 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:20.039 but even more meaningful and powerful, I think, And so 285 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:22.519 that's also why I appreciate it so much of all 286 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:22.960 his work. 287 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:26.120 I think that's a great point. And I wanted us 288 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:28.320 to start jumping into the individual series, and so let's 289 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:31.039 actually start by talking about Midnight Mass, because it's one 290 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:34.039 that I think also really resonated with me, and I 291 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:37.080 think really is one that is kind of foremost in 292 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:40.559 a lot of people's minds for his stuff. And so 293 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:42.200 for those who haven't seen it, who haven't seen it 294 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:44.279 in a while, I'm going to try to make this 295 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:46.240 somewhat spoiler free, but I'm gonna give you just kind 296 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:49.360 of some of the overall outline of the plot. The 297 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:52.240 show is about a small island off the coast of Maine, 298 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:55.000 and this is somewhat intentional. If you're thinking, oh, that 299 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.200 sounds like a Stephen King reference, Mike Flannagan is on 300 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:00.200 record is being a very big Stephen King fan. He 301 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.080 actually just made a movie based on some Stephen King stories, 302 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:05.559 and so I think it's very intentional. This is a 303 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:08.599 small New England town where there's kind of one church 304 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:10.839 in town. Everyone's Catholic and that's kind of the center 305 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.240 of the whole town. And the town has been dying 306 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:15.400 for some time. People are moving to the mainland. A 307 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:18.039 lot of the industries that help keep the town businesses 308 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.000 going for a long time have failed. And into this 309 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:25.519 situation there comes a young priest, and the priest is 310 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:27.200 kind of new and full of ideas. 311 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:28.720 The old priest, who is. 312 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:30.599 Kind of really beloved but very much kind of like 313 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:33.039 you know, had been there for a million years. He 314 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:37.720 has retired and so now the town is kind of 315 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:39.759 all swept up because this young priest comes in with 316 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:42.200 all this energy and he's kind of making the Catholic 317 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:46.240 Church seem fun and passionate and powerful and not as 318 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:49.519 angry as it used to be, and he's showing that 319 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:53.880 like miraculous things are possible, and even getting to the 320 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:58.720 point of literal miracles starting to occur, and over the 321 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:01.240 course of the story you come to realize that there's 322 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.559 actually a lot of corruption happening and a terrible price 323 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:10.039 being paid to make what is possible possible, And over 324 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:10.559 the course. 325 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.000 Of the story you come to realize that really. 326 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.960 This is a story about corruption, and that the dream 327 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:20.039 of the easy fix and of like everything being saved 328 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.559 and wonderful can be corrupting and can blind us to 329 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:26.400 the actual consequences of things that are happening, and that 330 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:30.160 there are terrible, terrible consequences to what this priest is doing. 331 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.880 And it becomes just this really beautiful story about how 332 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:38.200 all that can unfold and how, in particular in the 333 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:40.400 Catholic Church, these things can play out. 334 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:41.519 And while it's a. 335 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:44.680 Supernatural story, it's a horror story. It's very much a 336 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:48.559 metaphor about the role that religion, and especially the Catholic 337 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:50.880 Church can have in a lot of communities. 338 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:56.440 Yeah, I agree, and that's I really like you pointing 339 00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:59.599 out that it is realized more on corruption, because it 340 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.480 does at a certain point, like I mean, it is 341 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:07.079 manipulation up until a certain point when it becomes I think, 342 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:12.000 willful corruption, and the people are faced with what has 343 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:15.440 been done to them, and a lot of them choose 344 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.279 to keep going anyway, and some of them don't, but 345 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.519 a lot of them do, and and I think that 346 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:25.559 that was a really powerful way to show this. I 347 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:30.240 also think that Zach Gilford's character whose name I can't remember, 348 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:32.000 I want to say Tommy, but I. 349 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:34.799 Can't remember what you. 350 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.799 Riley, Riley, Yeah, that's it. That's it, Riley. 351 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:42.519 Just to end up quickly, because I know there are 352 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:47.119 many versions of Catholicism, and all of them I think 353 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:49.359 share a lot of this, And Danielle, as a Catholic 354 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:51.519 person yourself, I want to hear more about your perspective 355 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:53.920 on it. But I'll also say that from being around 356 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.000 a lot of that community, though a part of it, 357 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:59.680 I know that Irish Catholicism is a very particular kind 358 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:02.559 of thing, Mike Flannagan, and that's my clinical experience. And 359 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.039 if you want to tell me a character is Irish, 360 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:07.519 I don't know. Much more of an Irish name than 361 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:10.359 Riley Flynn. So just kind of putting out that was 362 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:14.279 very much lampshaded. Is like, this guy's Irish, Irish American. 363 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:15.960 Yeah. 364 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:21.160 Yeah, And but with Riley, there's a particular scene that 365 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.200 I don't I don't really want. I don't know if 366 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:26.359 we should like just tell the specifics of what happens. 367 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:31.920 But Riley. Riley is an alcoholic and a recovering alcoholic. 368 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:36.119 He's back on the island from prison after a horrific 369 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:41.440 accident that he caused while he was drunk, and a 370 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:45.599 lot of his storyline is him coming to terms with 371 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:49.799 how he can live with what he did, and whether 372 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:51.839 he wants to live with what he did or not, 373 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.920 and how faith plays into that, how how his perspective 374 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:02.119 on life plays into it, like this this event as 375 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:07.119 it should have drastically changed his life, and a lot 376 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:11.079 of his monologues are around that, around uh, philosophy and 377 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:15.880 and faith, and his last, the last monologue he gives, 378 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.359 is to be one of the most powerful ones. I 379 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:20.599 think they all are. I think all of Riley's monologues 380 00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:22.720 are probably some of my favorite monologues that I've ever 381 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:27.039 that I've ever watched, uh, but the last one especially 382 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:31.279 is just it's incredibly beautiful and it's a lot about 383 00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:35.680 what we're willing to sacrifice for our faith and what 384 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:40.039 we're not, and what we're willing to sacrifice for our 385 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:45.200 lives and what we're not. And as I'm no longer Catholic, 386 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:57.200 but I guess I technically always are if you've confirmed no, no, yeah, technicalities, 387 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:02.200 but you know, having grown up in it, like I 388 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.599 could tell instantly, I knew that Mike Flanagan. I knew 389 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:08.079 who Mike clanagan was because of his work. I didn't 390 00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:09.839 know so much of him at the point of watching 391 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.680 Midnight Mass for the first time that I knew he 392 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.519 was Catholic. And when I watched it, like from the 393 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:18.559 first episode, I turned to my partner and I said, 394 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:23.200 the person who made this is Catholic. There is no 395 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.119 way that someone who didn't grow up and not just 396 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:29.000 a converted Catholic, someone who grew up Catholic. There's no 397 00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:31.799 way that someone who didn't grow up Catholic made this show. 398 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:36.200 Absolutely no way. Because I've seen shows in movies and 399 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:40.200 read books that involve Catholicism that are by people who 400 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:43.680 either came to Catholicism later in life, left it really 401 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:45.599