Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
Speaker 2: What What's gonna happen?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 2: Help? Welcome to the Occult Rejects this episode, I got
Speaker 2: a couple of the rejects with me, and we got
Speaker 2: a Brandon new guest on today, and before we introduce her,
Speaker 2: we'll introduce the other rejects with us, and I got
Speaker 2: my boy, headless giant. What is going on, sir? I
Speaker 2: finally got to meet this man after about three and
Speaker 2: a half years. He got stuck spending three days with
Speaker 2: me in an event and I had a blast. And
Speaker 2: I have to even say, yo, you know, for real,
Speaker 2: for real, when I met the guy, it was just
Speaker 2: like it wasn't even weird. It was just like it
Speaker 2: was already my boy. Like it's hard to explain, like
Speaker 2: there was no uncomfortability at all. I was just like, yo,
Speaker 2: it's fucking endless finally, you know. And we got a blast.
Speaker 2: But thank you, man for jumping on. I know yesterday
Speaker 2: sucked to getting home soon as me. Yeah, it was horrible.
Speaker 2: I didn't get on about Tull thirty, but I appreciate
Speaker 2: you jumping on today. Man, What is going on?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I'm happy to be here, and so is Beans.
Speaker 1: He missed me for the last two weeks, so he's
Speaker 1: not gonna let me have a moment of relaxation here.
Speaker 1: But if you guys want to check me out, I'm
Speaker 1: on Twitter and I'm on Instagram. Just look up Headless
Speaker 1: Giant and you'll find me there. I had an awesome
Speaker 1: time this weekend. Hopefully we get a chance to talk
Speaker 1: about it or something on stream. That was an incredible time.
Speaker 1: And uh yeah, so check me out. I've got seven
Speaker 1: seven seven coming up tonight with you, so.
Speaker 2: Oh hell yeah, I totally forgot about that. I forgot
Speaker 2: it's Tuesday. Holy shit. Yeah, I keep on thinking it's Monday,
Speaker 2: like yeah, yeah, that's funny. Well, thanks for the reminder.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. What he said I would have received
Speaker 2: the Lincoln. I'd be like, what the fuck? Oops? Uh
Speaker 2: uh yeah, go check out holy stuff. And Matt, thank
Speaker 2: you so much for coming on my man. I always
Speaker 2: appreciate you making it on. I know you're over in
Speaker 2: Italy still right, correct, Yes, that's awesome man, that's awesome
Speaker 2: the Atlantic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, pretty happy to be here. Always nice to talk
Speaker 4: about the stuff that I like as well. So Tarat
Speaker 4: definitely is up there. And yeah, I mean, you can
Speaker 4: find me on many platforms always Matt more on nineteen
Speaker 4: so that's Instagram, X, YouTube, TikTok, Twitch, maybe some other pists.
Speaker 4: And there's also the Gray Lodge we do we host
Speaker 4: weekly spaces on X that's always on Fridays, and you
Speaker 4: can also find the videos there, the ones we save
Speaker 4: in post to YouTube on the True Gray Lodge dot com.
Speaker 5: With the v so true.
Speaker 4: And also my website kabala dot com that's k A
Speaker 4: A b A l a h dot com. Doing some
Speaker 4: late here readings before it change the stuff that I'm
Speaker 4: providing there, so if you want to do that, make
Speaker 4: sure to grab it quickly before it changes. But yeah,
Speaker 4: pretty hapy to be here in let's have a great
Speaker 4: comp all.
Speaker 2: Right, thank you man. I really appreciate your making it
Speaker 2: again as well, always like when you're here. And finally,
Speaker 2: the guest Sabrina Scott. She's in Tataro. She's an author,
Speaker 2: She's got a bunch of stuff that I'm sure we
Speaker 2: can all talk about today. Very excited to get you on,
Speaker 2: so please Sabrina, you know, let people know like what
Speaker 2: your deal is and where they can find all your
Speaker 2: amazing work.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Hello, so excited to be here and
Speaker 3: to finally, like E meet all of you. I feel
Speaker 3: like it's going to be a really fun little chat.
Speaker 3: So for anyone who doesn't know me, I guess I'm
Speaker 3: a professional witch and have been for more than a decade.
Speaker 3: And I've been reading cards for twenty five years, been
Speaker 3: into witchcraft for twenty five years. Grew up in a
Speaker 3: fun thing called spiritualism that means like seances, mediumship, table tipping,
Speaker 3: like transpossession, all that fun shit. Got to see that
Speaker 3: before I turned ten, so definitely has influenced a lot
Speaker 3: of my perspective on a lot of this kind of
Speaker 3: like witchy woo woo magical occult stuff. That's a little
Speaker 3: bit of a unique, fun little thing about me. Also
Speaker 3: doing a PhD in a science department about trauma and
Speaker 3: witchcraft and how witchcraft can be a healing thing for trauma.
Speaker 3: So it's a bunch of what I do. And if
Speaker 3: anyone is curious to check me out on the good
Speaker 3: old interwebs. Sabrina Mscott dot Com, Instagram, Sabrina M Scott.
Speaker 3: What else YouTube is slash Sabrina Scott because I guess
Speaker 3: there's not as many Sabrina Scotts on YouTube, so I
Speaker 3: was able to get it without the.
Speaker 2: M oh nice, it's yeah all right, yeah, and I'll
Speaker 2: definitely include all your links at the bottom as well.
Speaker 3: So awesome, thank you.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I know, like I guess, you know, I guess,
Speaker 2: you know, just to jump right into it. You know,
Speaker 2: you have started off young. You know you were probably
Speaker 2: as for what I get out of it, you were
Speaker 2: brought up into it. So if you don't mind, like
Speaker 2: you know, I guess as personal as as you mind
Speaker 2: getting uh, could you let us know like how that
Speaker 2: how that was? Normally I would ask my guests what
Speaker 2: what got you into this stuff? You know, you were
Speaker 2: born into it, so you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so we kind of yeah, unique upbringing, I
Speaker 3: suppose you could say. So. My mom was super big
Speaker 3: into spiritualism, so she was always into mediumship and stuff
Speaker 3: like that, as was her mother. So if we count
Speaker 3: down the lines, I guess technically I'm seventh generation with
Speaker 3: all of that stuff. And so it was really really
Speaker 3: cool to be able to grow up in an environment
Speaker 3: where I could basically compare like spiritual notes like with
Speaker 3: my mom to be like, all right, I'm picking up
Speaker 3: on this spirit like and I would hold it in
Speaker 3: my mind and really, right, Mom, what are you picking
Speaker 3: up on? And then she'd be like blah da da da,
Speaker 3: and like kind of rattle off, and I'd be like, yes,
Speaker 3: that's exactly what I'm getting. So, when we're talking about
Speaker 3: like building spiritual confidence and like spiritual skill building, it
Speaker 3: was really sweet to have access to that kind of
Speaker 3: evidential comparing notes type of thing from a really really
Speaker 3: young age. I think a lot of people struggle with
Speaker 3: that or struggle with confidence in terms of spirituality and
Speaker 3: like energy work skills and like is this real? Am
Speaker 3: I making this up? Like I've heard that from so
Speaker 3: many newer practitioners, and so is very blessed to kind
Speaker 3: of be able to have someone to bounce this stuff
Speaker 3: off of and just to have that kind of early confirmation.
Speaker 3: And so for anyone who doesn't know about spiritualism, it
Speaker 3: was found in the eighteen fifties upstate New York, which
Speaker 3: is actually where my mom lives. So it's like kind
Speaker 3: of an interesting little thing. So she's still like involved
Speaker 3: with the church, the og Spiritualist Church, and it considers
Speaker 3: itself a science of religion and a philosophy, and it's
Speaker 3: really big on proving the existence of life after death,
Speaker 3: like the continuation of the soul be a medium ship
Speaker 3: and healing and so growing up with that first and
Speaker 3: foremost like it really has influenced my perspective on things
Speaker 3: like taro witchcraft stuff like that and no shade like
Speaker 3: a lot of taro and witchy people. But I do
Speaker 3: feel like a lot of folks out there practicing would
Speaker 3: not know what to do if a spirit actually showed up,
Speaker 3: do you know what I mean? Like there is a
Speaker 3: lot of that, at least in like the witchy space,
Speaker 3: maybe not so much like the cultism space, if you
Speaker 3: know what I mean.
Speaker 2: You know, I get that. I mean I've even asked
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a little loft, but I mean
Speaker 2: it's kind of almost the same comparison. I've asked bigfoot people,
Speaker 2: what are you gonna do when you do finally see him?
Speaker 2: I'll probably fucking run.
Speaker 3: Hey, what do people say when you ask that?
Speaker 2: When you finally got them? Now, what are you going
Speaker 2: to do? When people were like I have people on
Speaker 2: the show, and some of them didn't even have an
Speaker 2: answer right away because they're like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, And so I guess I got
Speaker 3: to kind of see the real deal of it all
Speaker 3: from a really young age. So like the question of
Speaker 3: like is this real or am I delusional? You know,
Speaker 3: that question was never really a thing, just because I
Speaker 3: did get to have so much confirmation and evidence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's especially from a person that you trust totally.
Speaker 2: That was a thing that was even I mean, it
Speaker 2: wasn't one of the reasons why I had left the OTO,
Speaker 2: but like when I started having my experiences, I realized
Speaker 2: I was like, yoh, there's nobody even here I could
Speaker 2: talk to about this, because I tried to like kind
Speaker 2: of with a few people, and I was just like,
Speaker 2: it's a fox point for me to be here because
Speaker 2: like and then some of the just keeping a real
Speaker 2: some of the other people there, I felt like if
Speaker 2: I was as them, they run with some like wild delusion,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just just concox some crazy woo woo shit.
Speaker 2: And I just wasn't comfortable even talking to people. So
Speaker 2: it kind of sucked. I was like, well, why even
Speaker 2: be here now at this point?
Speaker 3: I don't what crazy woo would they say? Now?
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, probably like ah, it was like
Speaker 2: some a trial. It was just I had spoken to
Speaker 2: somebody I remember they were trying to tell me some
Speaker 2: weird ask the travel ship, and I was like, all right,
Speaker 2: I could kind of grasp that, but they were like
Speaker 2: getting like weird about it, and I was just like
Speaker 2: or I had people telling me like certain like specific
Speaker 2: Oh it was a certain like deity and this and that.
Speaker 2: I'm like, the fuck, I don't know. It was just
Speaker 2: hard to explain, it was. It was just hard toks.
Speaker 2: I was like, well, how did that come out of
Speaker 2: like what I was doing. It's just like I had
Speaker 2: my eyes closed, meditating in my chair and you're telling
Speaker 2: me about you know, fucking ayes Modius sometimes ship.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know, it's weird sometimes people's interpretations.
Speaker 1: The thing.
Speaker 2: You know, what the problem was is I was never
Speaker 2: even able to get out like exactly like it was
Speaker 2: before he was even done explaining myself. I was already
Speaker 2: getting answers, and I was like, see, like you should.
Speaker 2: You haven't even listened to the whole fucking thing yet.
Speaker 2: That's had I think was the major problem. You know
Speaker 2: what I'm saying. Yeah, it was just like you're already
Speaker 2: throwing answers out there before I even explained this whole
Speaker 2: fucking visual feeling scenario I went through No, Yeah, so
Speaker 2: it just wasn't comfortable. So you're lucky you had that experience,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, truly it's a blessing. I do think a lot
Speaker 3: of people there is life trying and figure that out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well there is a gulf between the magic community
Speaker 1: and the paranormal community that didn't exist all throughout history.
Speaker 1: Because they're going to these places that are haunted and
Speaker 1: they're summoning the spirits of talking to them. That's where
Speaker 1: they get all their magical practices from. You know, it's
Speaker 1: firsthand experience. But I think a lot of people have
Speaker 1: sort of lost sight of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know what, that's gonna make me sound
Speaker 3: kind of like a bitch, But I feel like some
Speaker 3: of the paranormal community people like don't fully get what's
Speaker 3: going on, like looking at it from like the witchy
Speaker 3: energy mediumship perspective, like there's I'm sure you're probably what
Speaker 3: I'm talking about, Like there's some of those big shows
Speaker 3: where they're on like a little in Paranormal Adventure and
Speaker 3: like looking at it like as an occultist, like as
Speaker 3: a magical practitioner, as an energy worker, as a medium
Speaker 3: I'm just like, oh man, people know what they're doing
Speaker 3: and it's like low key stressful to be like what
Speaker 3: are you doing? Like can I just come and teach
Speaker 3: you the ways? And then this is all going to
Speaker 3: go so much better and you're going to not be
Speaker 3: scaring yourself over the most basic shit like can we
Speaker 3: just all come hang out? Like let me show you
Speaker 3: guys the ways? And it's it's interesting, Like so I
Speaker 3: think you're right, Like there is that golf where like
Speaker 3: some witchy people or occult people could stand to get
Speaker 3: more of their hands dirty with going out there, and
Speaker 3: then the the paranormal people like could stand to learn
Speaker 3: a little bit more about what those of us over
Speaker 3: here in a cult mediumship, witchy energy land have to say.
Speaker 3: Like there is there's not a lot of people who
Speaker 3: are having that kind of cross cultural accomp station.
Speaker 2: I like how you mentioned, uh right, you got to
Speaker 2: go ahead? Hell's sorry, Well I was going.
Speaker 1: To say, you got to get them tickets to lily Dale.
Speaker 1: You know lily Dale. Something we still going on.
Speaker 3: It is, it's right there, You're just got to pay
Speaker 3: the entry fee to go chill. There's still doing their thing.
Speaker 2: I like, how you men go ahead, No, I.
Speaker 4: Got Chris to understand, like, how do you practice uh
Speaker 4: this spiritualism because we have it in Brazil's well probably
Speaker 4: a different like uh the tape from a different origin
Speaker 4: because I know from Brazil the guys came from friends.
Speaker 5: So it's like the car neck and whatever.
Speaker 4: There's like a bunch of if you mentioned the other ones,
Speaker 4: maybe probably some Anglo Saxon like if it started in
Speaker 4: New York as well. But like in Brazil we have
Speaker 4: the median ship, we have the tables and one. We
Speaker 4: have a lot of Heaton passes what they'll say like
Speaker 4: you go and take it past or whatever. But there's
Speaker 4: for like outside people, there's there's also a communication sometimes
Speaker 4: like you get like a letter read in order something
Speaker 4: like that, Like how different just to kind of start
Speaker 4: try to grasp in man.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd be curious to hear more about what the
Speaker 3: situation is in Brazil to really be able to be
Speaker 3: like an actually solid answer on that. But in terms
Speaker 3: of technique wise, like all of what you just mentioned
Speaker 3: sounds very aligned. But even within North America, like spiritualism
Speaker 3: does have like specifically spiritualism does have different little factions.
Speaker 3: So NFB see like the National Spiritual Association of Churches,
Speaker 3: which is kind of what I grew up around, and
Speaker 3: that would be the lily Dale version of spiritualism is
Speaker 3: really a bit different than non NSAC forms of spiritualism
Speaker 3: in North America, Like and there's so within the NSAC
Speaker 3: there's like there's rules, there's certain you know, stuff that
Speaker 3: is cool and certain stuff that is not cool. Like
Speaker 3: they're really big on keeping things kind of purest like
Speaker 3: no tarot, no tool know, nothing, like they just want
Speaker 3: it to be pure bodywork. And other let's say, forms
Speaker 3: of sputualism in North America are a little bit more
Speaker 3: like las A fair some of them are a little
Speaker 3: bit more Christian inflected, whereas NICC definitely is not. And
Speaker 3: so there are some kind of interesting little tensions there.
Speaker 3: I think this. I was talking to someone about this
Speaker 3: last night actually, I did another podcast interview and she's
Speaker 3: out in the UK, and she was kind of saying
Speaker 3: the same thing is going on out there in terms
Speaker 3: of the different spiritualist factions out Yonder kind of battling
Speaker 3: each other. So it seems like it all kind of
Speaker 3: comes from a very common route or common series of
Speaker 3: folks who are influencing the thought in the practice. But
Speaker 3: I'm sure there's there's always like little political infighting in
Speaker 3: terms of what's considered to be like the legit way
Speaker 3: to do it, and that's always going to be kind
Speaker 3: of different. But I would say that sounds like there's
Speaker 3: some similarities in terms of the practices and techniques for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's interesting that you mentioned that, for example,
Speaker 4: the day one, it's not necessarily religious, right, Is that right?
Speaker 4: Or or maybe less influenced, because what I mean, I
Speaker 4: think I understood you saying that there's like some that
Speaker 4: are more religious like Christian whatever focus, and some others
Speaker 4: maybe not that much.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would I would consider it religious, but
Speaker 3: I wouldn't consider it Christian.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's considered the.
Speaker 3: Thing to be their own religion. They've got their little
Speaker 3: principles and all of that. But I don't actually think
Speaker 3: and I could be wrong on this, but last I heard,
Speaker 3: I don't think you're actually allowed to have property in
Speaker 3: Lilldale if you accept Jesus. Like, they're very like, we're
Speaker 3: doing our own thing here, like that has nothing to
Speaker 3: do with Christianity, so they are very kind of protective.
Speaker 3: I would say about about that in that sence.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because in Brazil, like it's a very Catholic country,
Speaker 4: you know, for and portrayed guys and so on, so
Speaker 4: then it kind of got mixed with so the card
Speaker 4: next stuff was very very Christian, you know, it's like
Speaker 4: they even used the Bible and whatever in Jesus and
Speaker 4: so they talk about the same thing. But then it
Speaker 4: got synchronized with the African stuff and the native stuff.
Speaker 4: So then we have like this mix and the branches
Speaker 4: are from the prely Christian guys, and then the ones
Speaker 4: that mix with the African stuff as well, and then
Speaker 4: the ones with mixed with the natives. So then there's
Speaker 4: and then there's the whole shebang. Like you said, oh
Speaker 4: this is we can't do it or we cannot do it.
Speaker 4: We can use it, we cannot use it.
Speaker 5: But it's well at the end of the day, really, people.
Speaker 3: And you know what, like Brazil to me seems like
Speaker 3: such an interesting place spiritually because there's so many different
Speaker 3: influences kind of interacting and coming together and having that conversation.
Speaker 3: So Brazil from what I know, and please correct me
Speaker 3: if this is wrong, but it seems to be one
Speaker 3: of the main places that what they call in like
Speaker 3: the academic literature, like new religious movements Brazil. Like there's
Speaker 3: just so many different influences and stuff going on, So
Speaker 3: let's super interest thing to hear about from your perspective.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of mix, and like even for example,
Speaker 4: spiritualism came there and then a guy founded another thing
Speaker 4: called like a poma three I think.
Speaker 5: With people in English, and then it's like a whole
Speaker 5: another thing. And so yeah, it's like a new religion
Speaker 5: every week. Well, Matt, if I could jump in.
Speaker 1: So the one the Spiritualist society I went to was
Speaker 1: in Falls Church, Virginia, and I would say that they're
Speaker 1: more on the Christian side because they did have hymns
Speaker 1: and other you know Christian sort of paraphernalia going on
Speaker 1: before the service itself. But I think it served to
Speaker 1: sort of you know, focus and sort of get everybody
Speaker 1: in the same mindset to less so about you know,
Speaker 1: just the religious angle of it and more so about
Speaker 1: the focus though.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I've got no shade on Christians actually at all,
Speaker 3: Like it's just not og spiritualism.
Speaker 1: I would say, Well, a lot of this comes from
Speaker 1: the Native American influence, right, So the Native American influence
Speaker 1: was a big thing in the Christian churches at that
Speaker 1: time period because they had practices that they were bringing
Speaker 1: into their church that the white people had never seen before,
Speaker 1: and they're like, why can't we do that too? And
Speaker 1: so it's just sort of spread out from that sort
Speaker 1: of interaction, and I think it's you know, it represents
Speaker 1: something uniquely American that's now spreading across the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. Like as a part of my master's research,
Speaker 3: I did some looking into of the like Native American
Speaker 3: kind of indigenous influence with that, and there is a
Speaker 3: whole bunch of stuff to be said about that, a
Speaker 3: bunch of books as well. I could recommend, not off
Speaker 3: the top of my head, but there was a lot
Speaker 3: of kind of cross cultural conversation. And one thing that's
Speaker 3: really neat about lily Dale is like they do invite
Speaker 3: the local indigenous folks sometimes to come in and like
Speaker 3: give workshops. Like that was actually a theme one year
Speaker 3: I can't remember it, probably like ten fifteen years ago,
Speaker 3: where they did have a whole bunch of kind of
Speaker 3: spiritually inflected classes taught by like the Iroquois. I think
Speaker 3: this is I'm wrong, but so they do support that
Speaker 3: kind of cross cultural conversation I think always have around
Speaker 3: spirit contact and what does that look like and people
Speaker 3: channeling let's say Indigenous spirit guides as well back in
Speaker 3: the day was also a big part of the conversation
Speaker 3: back in the eighteen hundreds for sure. So that's your
Speaker 3: right to bring that up.
Speaker 2: I have even noticed, you know, we've had people come
Speaker 2: on to cover like Native Americanism or just like certain
Speaker 2: things that I'll cover. I'll be like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: this is like you know, the micmac medicine. Will you know,
Speaker 2: there's even like a freemasonry. There's stuff that I think
Speaker 2: they've even taken from Native American symbols, you know, some
Speaker 2: secret societies too, So that is interesting crossover.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: One thing I did want to bring up. It was
Speaker 2: kind of something that Headless or who kind of went
Speaker 2: into with the whole paranormal that is interesting with the
Speaker 2: whole seance stuff, you know, that is again you know,
Speaker 2: going back to like you know, a lot of my opinion,
Speaker 2: I was just gonna keep a real ghost adventures. You know,
Speaker 2: you got Zach Baggins is always doing this silly fucking
Speaker 2: shit and every other show, it's like, oh, ritual was
Speaker 2: done here, Oh sience was done here, ritual was done.
Speaker 2: You know, he's obviously my opinion, he's an a cultist anyway,
Speaker 2: but uh, he's he focuses on that shit, and he
Speaker 2: does make it seem rather fucking silly and stupid at times.
Speaker 2: But like if you start looking back, like back in
Speaker 2: the day, you know, the Council of Nine, there's even
Speaker 2: stories of like could you keep it real? The guys
Speaker 2: from Alcoholics Anonymous were even doing seances upstate New York.
Speaker 2: You know, you get people who are actually into the
Speaker 2: occult and they're doing seances. You know, spiritualists who were
Speaker 2: you know, or occultist who got kind of more into
Speaker 2: spiritualism and started doing seances. I don't think people like
Speaker 2: you're saying, like, really understand like what they're imitating when
Speaker 2: they're doing these things on the paranormal shows.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, which to me seems so odd because it's
Speaker 3: like all you gotta do is like do a little Google,
Speaker 3: read a.
Speaker 2: Book, you know, or are they just grifting.
Speaker 3: It's available and people are into that. It's just odd
Speaker 3: to me that they wouldn't do that one step further
Speaker 3: to be like all right, what else can I learn
Speaker 3: about this to make this process go a little bit
Speaker 3: more better?
Speaker 5: You know, Yeah, it's funny that you talk about this.
Speaker 4: I remember there's a guy in Brazil which got pretty
Speaker 4: big on RPG books and you know, like games and one,
Speaker 4: and he would put actual rituals in the thing, and
Speaker 4: then people would do and they would here, like you know,
Speaker 4: stuff in their home and like the lights flickering some
Speaker 4: kind of.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean, like you said, if they went at least
Speaker 5: in search for it, they would know what's going on.
Speaker 5: They're not just you know, doing it for random.
Speaker 4: So I'm actually curious to know from your practice with
Speaker 4: the tear if you try to use also, for example,
Speaker 4: that your experience with spiritualism, or you try to focus
Speaker 4: only on the cars, like do you separate that or
Speaker 4: for you there's no separation, like there's always for.
Speaker 3: Sure, it's your question. For me, I kind of blend
Speaker 3: it all and depending on the client, depending on what
Speaker 3: comes through. Some people's ancestors or whatever a little bit
Speaker 3: more chatty than others, and sometimes they're not there at all,
Speaker 3: which is always kind of interesting. But I don't sell
Speaker 3: my services really with that in mind. And the reason
Speaker 3: for that is, in my experience, a lot of people
Speaker 3: seeking mediumship and psychics and all of that, and they
Speaker 3: really want their dead uncle Bob to like come through
Speaker 3: and say something like They're often coming from this kind
Speaker 3: of desperation e energy that I don't find super useful,
Speaker 3: like who cares if dead uncle Bob still loves you?
Speaker 3: Like it's fine, but is that going to help you
Speaker 3: make better choices in your life right now? Like probably not,
Speaker 3: Like it's a nice kind of platitude. Realize that might
Speaker 3: sound a little bit intense, but that is kind of
Speaker 3: why I don't sell what I do in that way,
Speaker 3: even though behind the scenes, like energetically, often that is
Speaker 3: a part of what's going on. So whenever I am
Speaker 3: reading for someone like am I sticking to the cards
Speaker 3: as a baseline, absolutely, But there is also that kind
Speaker 3: of energy work, intuitive, medium ships, psychicy type of vibe
Speaker 3: that all of that is going to my process in
Speaker 3: different amounts depending on who I'm in front of.
Speaker 2: Nice nice as a case the case basis, I guess really.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Like some people's energy is easier to
Speaker 3: read than others. Some people are a little bit more
Speaker 3: forthcoming than others, and so there always is going to
Speaker 3: be a little bit of a different vibe depending on
Speaker 3: who I'm reading for.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you can get somebody who comes in it's
Speaker 2: just like is like puken, you know, basically just doesn't
Speaker 2: shut up and it tells you so much stuff. And
Speaker 2: you can probably get some person who comes in like
Speaker 2: is dealing with you. It's like a little nervous. It
Speaker 2: maybe doesn't talk you.
Speaker 3: As much, doesn't say anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's totally different to technique problem, Like.
Speaker 3: It doesn't happen as much anymore. But in the past
Speaker 3: I have had some people comp and say absolutely nothing
Speaker 3: just to kind of like test me out or whatever.
Speaker 3: And then once they could see that my ship was legit,
Speaker 3: then they were like they chilled out a little bit
Speaker 3: and were like okay, okay, okay, and then kind of
Speaker 3: opened up. So you do kind of get some of
Speaker 3: those sometimes too, where they just want to give you
Speaker 3: little tests and make sure that you're not full of shit,
Speaker 3: which is a little bit annoying, but it's okay, Like
Speaker 3: I always passed the test.
Speaker 1: So I got to ask you, what is your favorite deck?
Speaker 3: Oh my god, writerway smith O.
Speaker 2: G okay, nice nice? I like.
Speaker 3: I love that deck. It's just a vibe, like it's
Speaker 3: so good. I've got this is actually a really lovely
Speaker 3: gift from somebody. So it's like a pre digital printing
Speaker 3: of it. This is like actually from seventies and it's
Speaker 3: such a vibe, Like the colors are just so good. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I love this deck. It's absolutely my favorite. Like what
Speaker 3: I love about it too, is if you put it
Speaker 3: in front of someone who doesn't know literally a damn
Speaker 3: thing about tarrow, like they will be able to know
Speaker 3: that this card sucks, you know, they will be able
Speaker 3: to kind of get the vibe like no one is
Speaker 3: happy to see this, whether you know about the carrow
Speaker 3: or not. So I like that the imagery is so evocative.
Speaker 3: And my background is in illustration, so like I've done
Speaker 3: magazine covers all that, I've got two graphic novels out.
Speaker 3: So having good art that actually communicates the message that
Speaker 3: you want to have communicated for me is like the
Speaker 3: most important thing. Like I really really prioritize that when
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about what decks are the best, and like
Speaker 3: can I read with you know a deck that literally
Speaker 3: just had the name of the cards written on it,
Speaker 3: and that was it, Like sure, I could absolutely do that,
Speaker 3: but as an artist myself, like, this is just this
Speaker 3: is the vibe, how about y'all?
Speaker 2: I do. I'm a fan of a couple of them.
Speaker 2: I do like that deck and I started off at
Speaker 2: the Golden Dawn deck because of uh, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of associations on that card, which is another reason why
Speaker 2: I like the right Away deck because I think if
Speaker 2: somebody like, unfortunately it is just my opinion, you can
Speaker 2: pick up some Tarot decks and just like some people
Speaker 2: I think, will just be like, oh, it's just some
Speaker 2: cool art that I'm supposed to interpret. It's like, no,
Speaker 2: there's actually associations with this shit to actually you know,
Speaker 2: help help, you know, give you an idea what you're
Speaker 2: looking at. And you know, some decks don't have that
Speaker 2: at all, and you know, I'm afraid some people lose,
Speaker 2: you know, the deepness to these cards. So I like
Speaker 2: the ones that have a lot of the associations on
Speaker 2: it to kind of like, you know, it's planetary shits,
Speaker 2: this and that elemental. So yeah, I do like those.
Speaker 2: And I will say I do like Crowley the Toe deck,
Speaker 2: you know, I do like that one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's you bring up something really good. I
Speaker 3: think in terms of a lot of these kind of
Speaker 3: new decks not really having this symbol. And I do
Speaker 3: teach Taro to like total newbies, and one of the
Speaker 3: things I always tell them is, like, make sure that
Speaker 3: you choose the right deck, because sometimes you could be
Speaker 3: picking up on a deck that there is really no
Speaker 3: symbolism with that deck. It was just made by some
Speaker 3: random artists, bless their heart, who doesn't know a damn
Speaker 3: thing about Taro. And the art looks sweet. But the
Speaker 3: reason I think a lot of newbies who pick up
Speaker 3: those type of decks are have like a struggle in
Speaker 3: their process of learning Taro. It's actually not on them,
Speaker 3: like it's on the fact that the deck makes no sense,
Speaker 3: and that is something I would love like people know more,
Speaker 3: because like, yeah, as experts are people who know this shit,
Speaker 3: we can read anything. It's fine, But for a total newbie,
Speaker 3: like some of these decks are not going to make
Speaker 3: any sense because they're not designed by people who actually read.
Speaker 2: Good.
Speaker 1: And I even think I had to pull it out.
Speaker 1: I got the Muca Taro. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: guys have ever heard of Frog's muca, but right he
Speaker 1: started the art nouveau move these are inspired by his works.
Speaker 1: It's it's not by him, but they're they're pretty good. Uh,
Speaker 1: let me pull up another one here. Oh there's a
Speaker 1: good one, Ace of Cops just going. But yeah, that's
Speaker 1: definitely along the same lines. It's got to have some
Speaker 1: artistic relevance to you so that you can really get
Speaker 1: into the idea of the art and the motifs.
Speaker 2: I'm giddy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: I have three decks that I use for different reasons,
Speaker 4: Like the I like the mythic one with the Greek stories.
Speaker 5: It's pretty good for.
Speaker 4: Readings because I mean, most people in the West know
Speaker 4: the Greek stories, so I can just say, you know hercules,
Speaker 4: and then it's like, oh, okay, I know more or.
Speaker 5: Less what it is.
Speaker 4: Like what you mentioned with the writer White one, you know,
Speaker 4: you kind of just get it a little bit, even
Speaker 4: if the person ever heard about it. And the imagery
Speaker 4: is also super nice then for some magical work, every
Speaker 4: like the one from Cahus, which is like has all
Speaker 4: the kabala astrology, anything your relations and also the Ima
Speaker 4: just super chemical ressle that's.
Speaker 5: Also pretty nice for magic.
Speaker 4: It's also the one that I was initiated in when
Speaker 4: learning Kamala. So it's again it's pretty clear to understand
Speaker 4: and when doing with like when I do a reading
Speaker 4: and there's a bunch of smaller like the minor arre
Speaker 4: kind of then I really enjoyed the Egyptian one, which
Speaker 4: has also pretty good explanations for the miner a kind
Speaker 4: of like pretty specific numbers and correlations and imagery responsor.
Speaker 5: That's also pretty pretty.
Speaker 4: Nice and I completely agree with you, Like if a
Speaker 4: Tarot deck is not made with the intention of being,
Speaker 4: you know, a terror deck, then you can call it
Speaker 4: a deck.
Speaker 5: Maybe not a terror deck, like I've seen those, you know,
Speaker 5: like cold or whatever.
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah exactly, it's like oh cool, sure you can
Speaker 4: call that a creator own thing.
Speaker 5: But then that's not Terot. That's like absolutely, I guess.
Speaker 3: It was our deck then yeah, so it's not like
Speaker 3: an actual practical reading deck. And like as artists, I
Speaker 3: got a beef with our decks. But like, make sure
Speaker 3: people know what it is, because then those the newbies
Speaker 3: are gonna get get fucked.
Speaker 4: Up, yeah exactly, or like make it explicit if it's
Speaker 4: an oracle deck like that there's a system and whatever,
Speaker 4: but then okay, you you have the descriptions, it's something else, right.
Speaker 1: I've only felt like a tarot snob. One time, this
Speaker 1: woman pulled out a deck that was made by what's
Speaker 1: that place in the mall that's next to at Spencer's.
Speaker 1: It was a Spencer's gift deck that had all these
Speaker 1: Halloween things as the different suits. It was. It was
Speaker 1: really bad, like they had the wolfmn on. There is
Speaker 1: like the Emperor card and stuff.
Speaker 5: It was.
Speaker 2: It was pretty bad.
Speaker 3: There is an actual Halloween tarot and I actually have
Speaker 3: had a suit. It wasn't that one. Yeah, I did
Speaker 3: have a student once try to learn with that first,
Speaker 3: and I was like maybe not please please know.
Speaker 2: So if you don't mind, like what was what would
Speaker 2: be like? I guess when you were like kind of
Speaker 2: growing up, like when you're into this stuff, what would
Speaker 2: have been like I guess your normal practices, like what
Speaker 2: was your I guess magical daily life like or even
Speaker 2: what is it like now too, you know whatever.
Speaker 3: Honestly, it's it's pretty subtle these days, like I don't
Speaker 3: go too crazy. But when I was younger, it was
Speaker 3: a lot of spirit contact, spirit work, mediumship, whether that
Speaker 3: was just spirits chilling out ancestors. There was. There were
Speaker 3: like a few deities that I worked with back in
Speaker 3: the day. There were nature spirits, like land spirits, a
Speaker 3: dragon spirit that I was really vibing with as a kid,
Speaker 3: makes sense, I guess I was. It was a lot
Speaker 3: of mediumship and like animism and just connecting with place,
Speaker 3: connecting with the objects around me. It was a lot
Speaker 3: of stuff like that, Like I had a little all
Speaker 3: so ritual candles, the whole shebang, like pretty much what
Speaker 3: you're kind of thinking. But for me, the most important
Speaker 3: thing for me magically has always been the spirit contact
Speaker 3: piece and the energy work piece. Like I've never been
Speaker 3: super big in terms of like ceremonialism or you know,
Speaker 3: needing to do things in a particular exact OCD type
Speaker 3: of way, Like that's never really been the way that
Speaker 3: I've worked, Like I've always been a little bit more intuitive, spontaneous,
Speaker 3: like close to the ground, like riding the waves of
Speaker 3: the vibes has always been my thing. Like for me,
Speaker 3: that's always felt the most magical, the strongest experiences, the
Speaker 3: best results I've gotten have been when it's come from
Speaker 3: a kind of immediate need rather than like, all right,
Speaker 3: it's five PM. It's magic time, Like let's go. And
Speaker 3: no disrespect to folks who do that. I think like
Speaker 3: some folks need to or some people's minds work best
Speaker 3: in that kind of regimented way. But that's never really
Speaker 3: been how I've felt called to practice these days. I
Speaker 3: work with Santamente and also Saint Lucy and then my
Speaker 3: ancestor spirits as well, and the land also to some extent.
Speaker 3: So it's a lot of just energy based stuff. Nice
Speaker 3: this It doesn't really look like you're doing too much,
Speaker 3: but you are.
Speaker 2: I get that. Yeah, do you get like a lot
Speaker 2: into like herbs and crystals and stuff or no, I
Speaker 2: don't know how much that stuff is incorporated into that stuff.
Speaker 3: Like I can fuck with that, but like it's not
Speaker 3: the biggest part of my practice. I would say, like
Speaker 3: I have some little things around is like cute sea
Speaker 3: little things, but I'm definitely not one of those people
Speaker 3: that's got like twenty crystals. It's like, all right, what
Speaker 3: crystal we use them for the magic today? Like that's
Speaker 3: never really been my thing. And like, again, no shade
Speaker 3: to folks you practice that way. I think it is
Speaker 3: to legit and I do believe that stones have energies
Speaker 3: and YadA YadA, but it's it's not a big part
Speaker 3: of my practice. I would say, like, I'm very like
Speaker 3: energetically focused in terms of how I work.
Speaker 5: One question that came to mind.
Speaker 4: I don't know if it works like this for you,
Speaker 4: but I know from some people that do work with
Speaker 4: like spirits or mediumship in this case, they would get,
Speaker 4: for example, not tips, but they would get like a
Speaker 4: job to be done, for example, like go and get
Speaker 4: the scandal on that time, on that whatever whatever, like
Speaker 4: very specific from the spirit. Do you know, get this
Speaker 4: other thing and mix it up and so on, So
Speaker 4: you do get those tides.
Speaker 3: Yeah sometimes for sure. Yeah sometimes, But if I'm getting
Speaker 3: those instructions, I'm following them for sure.
Speaker 5: Nice. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And then and then that becomes like I'm telling this
Speaker 4: because I've saw a Cobblest doing this kind of study
Speaker 4: where he would study what the guys are requesting, and
Speaker 4: then he would see like the astrological time and whatever,
Speaker 4: and it would.
Speaker 5: Make sense for ever work for what their requests.
Speaker 4: So like a person doesn't even have to know because
Speaker 4: the guys already not telling them this just make it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that you brought that up. And like,
Speaker 3: for me, that also highlights the importance of that trust
Speaker 3: between like the practitioner and then whoever we're working with spiritually,
Speaker 3: to be able to trust first of all, that we've
Speaker 3: got some good spirits on our team and it's not
Speaker 3: just like some sketchy, random spirit fucking us up. I
Speaker 3: think some people don't know how to discern that, which
Speaker 3: is interesting. But when we do have that spiritual relationship
Speaker 3: that is super strong, it becomes easier to trust some
Speaker 3: of these instructions that you're talking about and then having
Speaker 3: the faith in the whole process to actually execute on it,
Speaker 3: rather than to be like, oh, I'm getting this impression
Speaker 3: that I should get this at this time, but I'm
Speaker 3: just going to ignore that because I'm just making that up,
Speaker 3: which I have heard from some newer practitioners, especially that
Speaker 3: they're kind of afraid to go down that path and
Speaker 3: follow whatever that let's say, inspired speech happens to direct
Speaker 3: them be doing. That's definitely an interesting thing to bring up.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I completely agree with you.
Speaker 4: You've got to trust what you're listening to or like
Speaker 4: know how to differentiate because otherwise, yeah, I mean you
Speaker 4: also kind of trust it, right, Like you wouldn't do
Speaker 4: it because you don't trust.
Speaker 5: If I know the.
Speaker 4: Person's helping me is like an expert, it's like hiring
Speaker 4: a person in real life, right, if I'm hiring an expert, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm trusting with the guys talking involving him. You know,
Speaker 4: I'm hiring him because he's an expert. Yeah makes sense?
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, that's huge.
Speaker 1: Well, I think there's different styles to a lot of
Speaker 1: the contract work requires a lot of really highly segmented
Speaker 1: and uh specific forms, Whereas if you're just trying to
Speaker 1: get to know your local nature and everything else like that,
Speaker 1: you're already in that conversation. So tapping into that a
Speaker 1: little bit more is not going to require all those
Speaker 1: rituals and things.
Speaker 3: Absolutely well.
Speaker 2: I know you also with your pH d, Like, how
Speaker 2: does that tie into kind of like what you're doing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so okay, so TILDR. I'm doing a PhD in
Speaker 3: a Philosophy of Science department. So the other name for
Speaker 3: that feel does Science and Technology studies, So we basically
Speaker 3: look at science, what is it, how does it work?
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah. And so within that context, I am
Speaker 3: doing work on witchcraft and magic as a form of
Speaker 3: trauma healing, and so the tail dr on that, because
Speaker 3: it's like a lot of writing on it, is that trauma.
Speaker 3: We get there because we kind of are frozen and
Speaker 3: we we're kind of paralyzed, right. Trauma basically is a
Speaker 3: paralysis response, and that's why it's so persistent, That's why
Speaker 3: we kind of stay there a long time once we're there.
Speaker 3: And So what I think is really unique about witchcraft
Speaker 3: and magic is it inherently is about action. It's about
Speaker 3: doing something. It is like, you can't be paralyzed and
Speaker 3: do magic. Really like, you have to do something. You
Speaker 3: have to set an intention, you've got to go get
Speaker 3: the stuff, you've got to do the practice, you've got
Speaker 3: to act on it. Really and so my argument basically
Speaker 3: is that witchcraft and magic is specifically unique spiritually because
Speaker 3: it is so action oriented. It isn't really about past
Speaker 3: civity or accepting things as they are, which is distinct
Speaker 3: from a lot of other kind of spiritual tradition spaces,
Speaker 3: which is about acceptance, you know, whatever, whatever, all of
Speaker 3: that type of thing. We're just gonna like let the
Speaker 3: vibes be how they are. We're going to accept life
Speaker 3: as it is. We're going to be you know, very chill.
Speaker 3: And what I like about magic for trauma is it's
Speaker 3: possible to be like, all right, everything sucks, let's make
Speaker 3: it not suck. I don't want to accept the fact
Speaker 3: that everything sucks, Like, let's change some shit. And my
Speaker 3: argument basically is that there's an empowerment in that that
Speaker 3: can help dislodge that paralysis, freeze response that a lot
Speaker 3: of people get in trauma. Obviously, I think everyone should
Speaker 3: also metathorpy do all that normal sciencey shit, but if
Speaker 3: we are going to get engaged spiritually, my argument basically
Speaker 3: is that magic can really help people if they take
Speaker 3: it seriously.
Speaker 2: I totally agree with that. I think, you know, I've
Speaker 2: even said before, I think a lot of shadow work
Speaker 2: is very important, you know, the practice magic absolutely and
Speaker 2: like even for myself, like I guess at one point
Speaker 2: before I started, you know, I just getting into a
Speaker 2: little bit deeper. I was doing kind of like it
Speaker 2: was so much trauma based, but I was focusing on
Speaker 2: things that the ways that I thought are certain things
Speaker 2: were kind of engraved into me. I was not agreeing
Speaker 2: with anymore, and I wanted to change. So I was
Speaker 2: a lot of focusing on that too. So I'm assuming
Speaker 2: you very much the same.
Speaker 3: That's important, absolutely, I think it's super important, and I
Speaker 3: just think is crucial in the community at large. And
Speaker 3: what I do observe sometimes, unfortunately, is a lot of
Speaker 3: people that say teaching this stuff or presenting themselves to
Speaker 3: be experts at magic or whatever, who their life sucks.
Speaker 3: They seem miserable, and I'm kind of like, dude, like,
Speaker 3: where's your magic in all of this? Like, how is
Speaker 3: it that you haven't healed all of this shit yet
Speaker 3: and your life is a disaster. It does make me
Speaker 3: sometimes question people's practice, like if they're still mud after
Speaker 3: so long, because this stuff really is supposed to help people,
Speaker 3: like if you do it properly, like it really can
Speaker 3: elevate you out of some shit. So that to me
Speaker 3: is just always like a little bit interesting to observe.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I guess that, Keith, it was all.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 2: There's also times when I just from my experience, sometimes
Speaker 2: people do shadow work and it's like, I think you're
Speaker 2: kind of just feeding that team in now you're not
Speaker 2: really doing totally. Yeah, And I mean that's probably slippery
Speaker 2: slope with anybody. Really.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: That's cool when you when you like schedule to kind
Speaker 2: of be done for that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so hopefully summer twenty twenty six. So like the
Speaker 3: thing has been written like since July, it's just jumping
Speaker 3: through all the academic hoops. Like academics are very slow
Speaker 3: in terms of scheduling their stuff. Like hurting academics is
Speaker 3: kind of like hurting cats. Like it's very challenging. Like
Speaker 3: everyone is on like a very chilled out timeline. So
Speaker 3: at the moment, it's just like waiting for everyone else
Speaker 3: to kind of read it. And then we're going to
Speaker 3: have to invite two more kind of external examiners to
Speaker 3: jump on board, and then I'll have a really fun
Speaker 3: three to four hour oral example. I will get to
Speaker 3: prove that I am not done. So that's like how
Speaker 3: it goes. That'll be doctor Sabrina the Witch Doctor. So
Speaker 3: that'll be very fun. It'll be fun. Yeah, we'll see
Speaker 3: how it goes.
Speaker 2: And I know you got a bunch of books too,
Speaker 2: So when we get into some of that actually doing.
Speaker 3: That, I have many books.
Speaker 2: Yea, let's see.
Speaker 3: I'll show you guys, just for just for fun, these
Speaker 3: kind of heavy all right, this is all my things.
Speaker 3: So there's actually one Journal missing, So I've got four journals,
Speaker 3: two Tarot Journals, one Oracle Card Journal, and then one
Speaker 3: Magic Journal. Says the Magic Journal very fun cover. But
Speaker 3: otherwise I think my most interesting books are probably my
Speaker 3: graphic novels, which are these. So this is my first one.
Speaker 3: This actually got nominated for the Best Graphic Novel in
Speaker 3: Canada when it came out, which is which fun. So
Speaker 3: it was originally self puff. Now it's with Wiser And
Speaker 3: this is basically nice a magical philosophy type of book.
Speaker 3: So the guy who wrote the foreword is like one
Speaker 3: of the foremost environmental philosophers working right now. And basically
Speaker 3: I'm talking about witchcraft as a form of environmental knowing,
Speaker 3: Like what do we learn about the environment in the
Speaker 3: land from witchcraft and animism and all of that. So
Speaker 3: it's like very very vibey, and it's also very much
Speaker 3: like magic in the city, like magic in an urban setting,
Speaker 3: Like what does it mean to connect with witchcraft and
Speaker 3: magic when we are living like downtown in a big city,
Speaker 3: which is pretty much where I've lived for the last
Speaker 3: I don't know, twenty years. I haven't lived out in
Speaker 3: the burbs in a really long time, so how do
Speaker 3: we do magic amongst the skyscrapers. It's kind of what
Speaker 3: that's about. And then this is actually a part of
Speaker 3: the PhD, this graphic novels. This is like witchcraft and
Speaker 3: trauma kind of memoir type of stuff. This is specifically
Speaker 3: kind of my story and how how did I come
Speaker 3: to understand this shit? It's like three times longer than
Speaker 3: the other ones will try to show you, guys. So
Speaker 3: I did all the art and the writing and the
Speaker 3: design blah blah blah. So like, yeah, so I'm really
Speaker 3: proud of this one. So this came out this year,
Speaker 3: thank you. And then this is like a witchy one
Speaker 3: oh one And it was actually originally signed a Penguin,
Speaker 3: but then they were pressing me off, so I bought
Speaker 3: my rights back and just signed to self pub and
Speaker 3: I have absolutely no regrets. So this is kind of
Speaker 3: like more pros like technique based how to. So my
Speaker 3: mission with this was to write a non denominational energy
Speaker 3: how the fuck to do the stuff because a lot
Speaker 3: of people would read my first book and they're like
Speaker 3: they'd be like, all right, I bought it, and now
Speaker 3: what do I do? And so this book is kind
Speaker 3: of the answer to that. Question, and it can be
Speaker 3: used no matter what people believe, like if they're Christian, atheist, Buddhists,
Speaker 3: what they want to do magic like that's very much
Speaker 3: like energy work mechanics, pretty much as how I describe it.
Speaker 3: And then this one came out this year a few
Speaker 3: months ago. Actually it's like my most cute sea book
Speaker 3: for sure. It's called The Witch at Home, very cute.
Speaker 3: And so this one is like magic in the mundane,
Speaker 3: and I'm basically explaining like typical stuff we do every day,
Speaker 3: like cooking, putting on our shoes, putting on moisturizer like
Speaker 3: stuff like that, and how can we understand that as
Speaker 3: as magical if we've got the right intention. So I
Speaker 3: really don't think magic has to be put on our
Speaker 3: witchy cloak and clap three times and get twenty candles.
Speaker 3: Like I love all that stuff, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 3: But like I think, like it seems basic, but I
Speaker 3: think it's like sneakly advanced as well. So that's that.
Speaker 3: And then I've got a book of poetry which is
Speaker 3: a little bit more dark and it is more like
Speaker 3: sexual assault healing type of poems, but there is like
Speaker 3: a magical element because I did work with witchcraft to
Speaker 3: kind of move past that. And so there is poems
Speaker 3: about those rituals in here too, for anyone for whom
Speaker 3: that would be healing, which I think is a lot
Speaker 3: of women unfortunately. So that's the repertoire. And I've got
Speaker 3: like four or five other ones planned. So we'll see.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, too.
Speaker 3: Many books in my brain, so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1: It's funny. My other favorite academic author, magician is a
Speaker 1: guy named Isaac Bonowitz. Okay, nineteen seventies. Yeah, he got
Speaker 1: his degree in magic and they're like, no, we're not
Speaker 1: doing that anymore. So it's been a long time, but
Speaker 1: it's sort of had that chasm there, but I think
Speaker 1: a lot more academics are going back to magic. Is like,
Speaker 1: you know, there's so much more stuff here that we
Speaker 1: missed the first time, calling it pseudoscience or whatever.
Speaker 3: Totally yeah, And I think there actually is a program
Speaker 3: I think in the Netherlands. You guys know what I'm
Speaker 3: talking about where you can actually get I think a
Speaker 3: master's and a PhD in like occult studies or something.
Speaker 3: Do you guys want to.
Speaker 1: Guy's going over there soon, So ask Matt. He's going
Speaker 1: to be uh, definitely researching that.
Speaker 4: Okay, then exactly like the thing that you're talking about that,
Speaker 4: I can see it.
Speaker 5: I can see it happened there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's cool as hell, So that's happening. And there
Speaker 3: is actually an interesting book. I haven't read it yet,
Speaker 3: but it's on my shelf. It's called I'm in the Academy,
Speaker 3: which I think is kind of about this whole type
Speaker 3: of thing, like that connection between occultism meant academics. It's interesting.
Speaker 1: Ours notoria. You know about that one. I did a
Speaker 1: whole book about spells on how to get the angels
Speaker 1: to occupy your brain so you can copy down these
Speaker 1: agent homes better.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like a real big one on memory
Speaker 2: old I think from the whole hundreds.
Speaker 4: Even if you think about before, right, like the Quadrivium, trivium,
Speaker 4: this kind of stuff like what they used to study,
Speaker 4: or the Masonic guys, the Freemasons, like yeah, they're basically academics,
Speaker 4: they were scholars and whatever.
Speaker 5: It just now it got kind of corrupted into this.
Speaker 5: Oh no, it's sony sites. Yeah cool.
Speaker 2: Well then even the other way where some people don't
Speaker 2: even incorporate science into it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they won't even worse.
Speaker 3: Honestly, I think academic study can always help people who
Speaker 3: are practicing magic. Like, it is interesting to me how
Speaker 3: many people are so anti academic study, and it's like
Speaker 3: whatever you believe, Like read the history book, like, read
Speaker 3: read the things, Like it's not gonna like fuck up
Speaker 3: your practice. It'll actually probably give you more interesting things
Speaker 3: to consider.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it might actually broaden it for you, make it moreach.
Speaker 2: I fall in love with it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I think there's always somebody to be gained
Speaker 3: from learning more, Like there's never something bad about that.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I've even said, well there's a ton go ahead.
Speaker 1: There's a ton of anthropology books out there about these
Speaker 1: native practices with a whole bunch of really interesting insights.
Speaker 1: So if you look up the ethnography of like voodoo,
Speaker 1: they've got tons and tons of books on this stuff.
Speaker 1: So it's it's an untapped resource when it comes to magic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like my Bookshelf over Yonder has like got a
Speaker 3: lot of that shit, And like I don't practice who
Speaker 3: or any of that stuff, but like reading about it
Speaker 3: academically I think is useful for anyone who is practicing
Speaker 3: any form of magic, like even if people have no
Speaker 3: plans to ever go down that route for themselves personally
Speaker 3: in their practice, Like it's you're right, like there is
Speaker 3: still so much to be gained from learning about like
Speaker 3: what does magic look like in different cultures? And how
Speaker 3: does that look?
Speaker 2: Even sometimes I just real quick sometimes I even think
Speaker 2: just seeing the cross cross symbolism can even help, like
Speaker 2: you get a better understanding.
Speaker 3: Too, absolutely yeah, because a lot of people are using
Speaker 3: similar mechanics, like not always like often.
Speaker 4: En Yeah, yeah, that's even if you don't use the
Speaker 4: same name, it's still magic, you know, like if you
Speaker 4: study car Jung and his stuff, it's purely alchemy and
Speaker 4: magic and they call it psychotropy.
Speaker 5: Okay, cool, you want to call it coming out good
Speaker 5: for you?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Absolutely yeah, that.
Speaker 2: Would be kind of like the really the shadow work
Speaker 2: of a magician. Mm hmmm.
Speaker 5: Exactly.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think a lot of people maybe not
Speaker 3: a lot, but like enough to be noticeable, are doing
Speaker 3: magic from that space of being unhealed or like really
Speaker 3: occupying the shadow space or whatever that is, and then
Speaker 3: that creates these unpleasant ripples for themselves and like whoever
Speaker 3: else I know, and Unfortunately, I have seen that a
Speaker 3: lot over the years, like in the larger magical occult community,
Speaker 3: like like the witch Wars, like the drama between everyone,
Speaker 3: like it just seems to me so unnecessary, like if
Speaker 3: we're all doing that work, like, why is this happening?
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's unfortunately, that's why you know, this
Speaker 2: is probably controversial and I don't know, Oh well, this
Speaker 2: is my opinion that could be a side effect of
Speaker 2: actually not doing the work, because unfortunately there's a lot
Speaker 2: of that. This was kind of something I kind of
Speaker 2: wanted to get into. I know you talked about it
Speaker 2: not too long ago on your show. I don't want
Speaker 2: to get into it too much, but I do like
Speaker 2: to bring up the point kind of I think this
Speaker 2: is why you even see people losing themselves and others
Speaker 2: and why, like I think people like Listen there the
Speaker 2: same probably some of the same reasons I did loss
Speaker 2: have no control. I want to control in my life.
Speaker 2: You know, I might have been fearful why I even
Speaker 2: got into this stuff, but at some point I'm going
Speaker 2: to have to probably work on myself and I'm if
Speaker 2: I'm worried about protesting about some the fucker I never knew.
Speaker 2: How am I fixing myself?
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: You know, if I'm worried about what the TV is
Speaker 2: fucking telling me to think, how am I working on myself?
Speaker 2: Mm hm? You know. And unfortunately that seems to be
Speaker 2: like almost like this growing thing of like some sort
Speaker 2: of let'll just keep it serious, like social justice warring,
Speaker 2: virtual signaling shit. Yeah, any way, I hate to say
Speaker 2: it is. I'm gonna keep it in eyes mostly just motherfuckers,
Speaker 2: completely inauthentic anyway.
Speaker 3: Yeah, now I agree completely, and I've gotten a lot
Speaker 3: of pushback for saying similar things as I'm sure you know,
Speaker 3: Like it is interesting to me how much that mindset
Speaker 3: that you've just described is infecting at least the Witchy space.
Speaker 3: Like I can't really speak to what that looks like
Speaker 3: and like the OTO or anything like that, because it's
Speaker 3: like not really my sphere, Like I have no idea,
Speaker 3: but in Witchy Land, where it is like a lot
Speaker 3: of women that has kind of taken over, a lot
Speaker 3: of the vibe is like this kind of such a
Speaker 3: justice war activism, and then you see like a lot
Speaker 3: of these women bullying each other. I've experienced people doing
Speaker 3: that to me, and like it is fucked up. I'm like,
Speaker 3: you guys, like, what is going on here?
Speaker 2: This is a show that's dropping in a few weeks.
Speaker 2: What I mean? Uh oh? I think this week that
Speaker 2: I did a few weeks ago on somebody else's show
Speaker 2: where I was like, legit told two or three times
Speaker 2: that I had white privilege, and I was like, Yo,
Speaker 2: what the fuck is going on right now? Because I
Speaker 2: didn't because I didn't agree with the OTO having meetings
Speaker 2: about George Floyd's situation, and like I'm sitting here and
Speaker 2: like I was really trying to be nice, and I'm like, Yo,
Speaker 2: I have somebody who's in front of me who does
Speaker 2: never even doesn't know anything about this organization telling me
Speaker 2: how it actually should be run. I'm like, like, how
Speaker 2: fascist is that? Actually? Like, who the fuck are you
Speaker 2: to tell the OTO how the fuck to run? They're
Speaker 2: based on the Book of the Law, not fucking CNN.
Speaker 2: George Floyd isn't in the Book of the Law. There's
Speaker 2: no George Floyd chapter. There's nothing in there tell you
Speaker 2: to watch fucking CNN and go protest, But you're what
Speaker 2: the fuck? It was just like I was just like,
Speaker 2: what is going on right now? And it's like, Yo,
Speaker 2: this that shit is a little too much.
Speaker 3: Man, It's a bit weird, honestly, And I think, to
Speaker 3: me it makes me concerned for not to get dark,
Speaker 3: but like for the future of democracy, because like if
Speaker 3: people are so easily believing exactly hook line and sink
Speaker 3: or whatever they're seeing by some like idiot on the
Speaker 3: news say like, have we lost all discernment? Have we
Speaker 3: lost like basic media literacy? Have we lost critical thinking skills?
Speaker 3: Like what the hell is going on here? Is like
Speaker 3: to me, this type of thing that like you're describing,
Speaker 3: like we should not be here as a society especially
Speaker 3: and this is controversial, Like but if you look at
Speaker 3: actually what happened with the whole George Floyd thing, like
Speaker 3: it's not exactly what people are presenting it to be,
Speaker 3: and the whole BLM organization is not exactly what people
Speaker 3: are presenting it to be. It's like a huge grift.
Speaker 3: And he died of like a drug overdose basically, and
Speaker 3: the other thing to again get too crazy, but before
Speaker 3: he passed in that manner, let's say the optics of it,
Speaker 3: there was a white guy who passed in a really
Speaker 3: similar manner, you know, with the knee and whatever.
Speaker 5: I forget the.
Speaker 2: Guys, I know what you're talking about. I know what
Speaker 2: you're talking about.
Speaker 3: I'm talking about and so it's like that got no coverage.
Speaker 3: But if that did get media attention, like could the
Speaker 3: optics of and the reality of exactly how the George
Speaker 3: Ford thing went down could have been different perhaps, And
Speaker 3: no one really wants to have that conversation because it's
Speaker 3: more complicated and more new. It's just more going on
Speaker 3: than the typical like all right, just believe this shit
Speaker 3: and then you know, go forth and protest, like it's
Speaker 3: very bizarre.
Speaker 2: And you know what, Like I what I realized, like
Speaker 2: near the end of when I was like kind of
Speaker 2: getting badgered. At one point, I was even like, sorry,
Speaker 2: I was born white and grew up in Long Island.
Speaker 2: I don't even know how much of this is getting edited.
Speaker 2: I'm really interested to see what's coming out. But like
Speaker 2: at one point it was basically I don't want to
Speaker 2: get too specific, but like people, basically her husband is
Speaker 2: brown and she's afraid of ice. So I'm like thinking
Speaker 2: in my head, so all of this comes down to
Speaker 2: you feeling fucking powerless and scared and instead of doing
Speaker 2: the fucking work and stopping being living in fear. You're
Speaker 2: gonna make every other motherfucker around you think the way
Speaker 2: you should and scream for you. That's black magic, in
Speaker 2: my fucking opinion.
Speaker 3: Yep. And a lot of people unfortunately are perhaps like
Speaker 3: due to lack of strength in themselves or like a
Speaker 3: lack of personal integrity. I don't know, like don't stand
Speaker 3: up to it, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm also white, you know, like my dad is Fromming,
Speaker 3: and it's like I have zero shame about that, like
Speaker 3: nor will I ever. And the fact that there is
Speaker 3: this weird manipulative thing going on right now, like where
Speaker 3: people are being pressured to feel shame, to perform shame.
Speaker 3: It's very fucked up. I really it end like soon.
Speaker 2: But because I was told everything is political, and I
Speaker 2: was like what I was like, Yo, I said, I
Speaker 2: haven't talked about that ship really on my show in
Speaker 2: a longe fucking time, because all it does is cause
Speaker 2: fucking decisive you know, division, And I was like, you
Speaker 2: all ship on both fucking sides, I said, I think
Speaker 2: both sides fucking suck. You know, we're all getting sucked
Speaker 2: by then. But it's just like I don't know, it's
Speaker 2: just like why am I being told I have to
Speaker 2: incorporate politics into my own show?
Speaker 3: You and like coming from the academy too, it's like
Speaker 3: the way that all this shit is being talked about,
Speaker 3: like it has its origins in academia and a lot
Speaker 3: of people don't realize that. But like this whole like
Speaker 3: critical race theory, like intersectionality, all of that stuff that
Speaker 3: comes from the academy, and like that's fine as like
Speaker 3: an academic exploration and discussing ideas and we're going to
Speaker 3: throw some stuff around and see how it lands. But
Speaker 3: when that becomes orthodoxy out like I r L in
Speaker 3: like governmental organizations and whatever, like, people become pressured to
Speaker 3: just adopt the ideology. It becomes a new religion basically,
Speaker 3: and if you're part of the religious cult, then you
Speaker 3: get shunned, ostracized whatever it is.
Speaker 1: Behavior When is when has politics ever not been magic?
Speaker 2: I even said that. I was like, in my opinion,
Speaker 2: if you're if you're a magician and you're playing with politics,
Speaker 2: you're a fucking slave or I said something along that line,
Speaker 2: and like you would you know automatically if you're a magician,
Speaker 2: I ain't even fucking with that. It's pure slavery. I
Speaker 2: was like, there's enough people out there pushing hate. I'm
Speaker 2: good on that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, the guy up there and making the actual Yeah.
Speaker 2: Then at one point, at one point, I wanted to
Speaker 2: get real fucked up and I was gonna be like, Yo,
Speaker 2: some white motherfuckers got his neck blown off? Aren't you
Speaker 2: fucking happy right now? Like, let's keep it real. You
Speaker 2: know you got some motherfucker that you probably hated. You
Speaker 2: gotta watch him die on fucking TV. You're not good
Speaker 2: for a few weeks, like you guys just sa I'm
Speaker 2: never happy with anything. More and more and more and more,
Speaker 2: it's fucked.
Speaker 3: Like I cried when that happened, and like I'm fucking.
Speaker 2: Sick that that sh was re played over and over
Speaker 2: and over again.
Speaker 3: It was fucking traumatized, right, so fucked and like the
Speaker 3: other thing with that too, Like I did a whole
Speaker 3: bunch of podcast episodes about that, and actually a few
Speaker 3: YouTube lives about that.
Speaker 2: I noticed that you did.
Speaker 3: I was going off. I was not stoked on how
Speaker 3: a lot of people respond to that, like being happy
Speaker 3: that he passed and all of this ship.
Speaker 2: No, I didn't like him. I didn't like him. I
Speaker 2: didn't give a fuck about that dude, And I just
Speaker 2: don't think what happened to him. If that was real,
Speaker 2: it was even fucking cool. I honestly thought he was
Speaker 2: fucking annoying, to tell you the truth, But he doesn't
Speaker 2: deserve to die.
Speaker 3: I don't know all this stuff, but like I had
Speaker 3: no beef with him, to be honest. But what did
Speaker 3: start making the waves in the witchy community was that
Speaker 3: apparently a few days before that happened, like apparently some
Speaker 3: witches put a hex on him, like some ex at
Speaker 3: sea witches or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I saw that ship. I saw some shit
Speaker 2: like that, right.
Speaker 3: And so that's part of what I was talking about
Speaker 3: on my podcast, was like I don't give a ship
Speaker 3: how much you don't like somebody like I truly don't care,
Speaker 3: Like we don't want to be hexting just because we
Speaker 3: don't like someone's politics. Like maybe I'll disagree, I don't know,
Speaker 3: but like for me, I'm just like.
Speaker 2: What the Fuckymember? I remember what I was like, I
Speaker 2: was like kind of just like getting into it. I
Speaker 2: had already been interested in magic and practicing, but like
Speaker 2: I sort of like kind of starting to creep like
Speaker 2: the internet now, and this is like Facebook I was
Speaker 2: looking at and I started coming across groups and I
Speaker 2: joined some of them, and all of a sudden, like again,
Speaker 2: this shows you how I was not even into politics,
Speaker 2: don't even fucking know there's an election coming up, and
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I see people like getting together
Speaker 2: to like fucking sway the election away from Trump, and
Speaker 2: I was like, like, what the fuck up? People? What
Speaker 2: and you know, no offense In my head, I'm like, yo,
Speaker 2: these motherfuckers actually think they're doing something like come on,
Speaker 2: like this is this you.
Speaker 3: Imagine thing that's where you want to put your magical energy.
Speaker 2: This is a structured tempotantrum.
Speaker 3: It's absolutely like it's arrogant, like it's entitled, it's childish,
Speaker 3: like how old are we all right now? Do you
Speaker 3: know what I mean? Like to me, like if that's
Speaker 3: where someone is putting their magical effort, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: you're so fucked up and unhealed right now, like you
Speaker 3: should be directing all of that vibe back into yourself.
Speaker 3: And like, I do think this is important because there
Speaker 3: is so much assumption, at least in like WITCHI Landia
Speaker 3: that like all witchy people are let's say, left wing.
Speaker 3: Like I got invited to be like an external reader
Speaker 3: for some new book on like feminist witchcraft or whatever
Speaker 3: by this publisher, and so like, I don't know what
Speaker 3: they thought they were signing up for when they got
Speaker 3: me to do it, because I'm like the most contrarian
Speaker 3: person in the sphere really, and so you know, like
Speaker 3: my feedback on this book was basically like this is bullshit,
Speaker 3: Like not all witches are left wing, you know, woke
Speaker 3: activists who want a hex Trump. Like I'm sorry, but
Speaker 3: the book was arguing that, like that that's a part
Speaker 3: of witchcraft inherently to be a far left activist. Like
Speaker 3: there was not even any mention that perhaps some witches
Speaker 3: are conservative or even centrist, God forbid.
Speaker 2: Like there was just a really good point.
Speaker 1: Margo Adler started chiseling the uh, you know, the epitaph
Speaker 1: a long time ago, but I think feminism really did
Speaker 1: do a lot to destroy the whole wick slash whatever movement.
Speaker 1: It just sort of it kind of hit the wall after.
Speaker 2: That, you know.
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah, I've got so much I could say about that,
Speaker 3: for sure, but it's it's.
Speaker 2: Unfortunate and I'll even say there was people that I
Speaker 2: was You see, this is another thing. I really didn't
Speaker 2: even know much about politics or even certain phrases until
Speaker 2: I was like in the OTO, because like there were
Speaker 2: certain people that I knew that would kind of start
Speaker 2: bitching about certain things, like I think they did. He
Speaker 2: somehow made the Deacon roll like available for non binary people,
Speaker 2: and they were like, yo, some dude was were like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck you know? I mean so much like that.
Speaker 2: It's just like this whole ritual is based off energy,
Speaker 2: and like, what the fuck did you just do with that?
Speaker 3: Me?
Speaker 2: I'm like, I really didn't even know what the fuck
Speaker 2: any of the ship meant to be totally honest with you,
Speaker 2: as I'm hearing this stuff, so I really didn't pay
Speaker 2: much mind to it. But like they were dudes that
Speaker 2: I realized due to like this stuff happening, they were
Speaker 2: extremely far right. And I still was like, Yo, you're
Speaker 2: fucking crazy too, motherfucker. You know. So I'm just gonna
Speaker 2: say no matter which way it streamed you when I
Speaker 2: wasn't cool with it, you know. So you know, I
Speaker 2: just want to put that out of there, and people
Speaker 2: think I'm a fucking nazi because I was just tired
Speaker 2: of the liberalism. But no, I was tired of fucking
Speaker 2: either one. Actually, you know, I was tired of hearing
Speaker 2: the fucking extreme pushback from the fucking stupid shit. I
Speaker 2: was just like, oh man, this is silly. Now, what
Speaker 2: the fuck are we're talking about? This isn't magic.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it doesn't take barely anything to be called the
Speaker 3: Nazi these days too. You know, like you could just
Speaker 3: disagree with someone on some basic thing, you get.
Speaker 2: Called the Nazi for not believing somebody else fucking one
Speaker 2: hundred percent and acting like them. It's like, how the
Speaker 2: fuck is this go? The Nazi.
Speaker 3: Very aware it's ironic. It's ironic for sure.
Speaker 2: I'll over here try to fucking just stay by myself,
Speaker 2: like and bother nobody like what the fuck man I was?
Speaker 2: I was even telling some other people. I was like, yo, like,
Speaker 2: I'm the type of like, you don't want me to
Speaker 2: start getting involved in that shit, because I'll be the
Speaker 2: motherfucker you see on TV and it called just driving
Speaker 2: through a fucking protest. You want me to get all
Speaker 2: rah rah rah, You'll fucking see if you push me
Speaker 2: that far. Let me be the cool, chill guy who
Speaker 2: talks about magic. That's where I could do the best
Speaker 2: to help people. I'm not going to do good behind
Speaker 2: balls because I decided to play politics and just fucking
Speaker 2: went nuts. You know, I'm no good to anybody that way. Sorry.
Speaker 2: I know my strengths and I know my weaknesses. I
Speaker 2: stick to magic.
Speaker 3: Speaking in prison.
Speaker 2: I've actually and I've been in prison too, so that's
Speaker 2: another thing I don't want to go back either.
Speaker 3: I've never been. I've never been. Just everyone knows, no shade.
Speaker 3: But I actually have gotten emails from family members of
Speaker 3: prisoners who are like, hey, my dad is super into witchcraft.
Speaker 3: He is it okay if he wants to know, if
Speaker 3: it's okay if he uses your book Witchbody to teach
Speaker 3: his fellow inmates about witchcraft. And I was like, that
Speaker 3: is the coolest thing ever, Like absolutely, yes, he has
Speaker 3: my permission to do that, Like that's totally fine. And
Speaker 3: the message back was like, thank you so much, because
Speaker 3: literally every other witchy author that we've asked this to
Speaker 3: is either not replied or said no, which I find
Speaker 3: like so bizarre, Like why not, Like I see no shade, No,
Speaker 3: nothing wrong with that, Like if they want to work
Speaker 3: on their practice and have spirituality behind bars, Like, how
Speaker 3: does that negatively impact me in any way? I just
Speaker 3: thought it was great and I've actually tarot read for
Speaker 3: someone in prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Actually, so I got a phone call and it was
Speaker 3: so I don't know how they did this. Maybe you
Speaker 3: can let me know, but I guess they smuggled somehow
Speaker 3: a cell phone.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: Literally he was just calling me and like it was
Speaker 3: a normal phone call and I was just like pulling
Speaker 3: cards and it was like, oh, you can't see your kids. Wait,
Speaker 3: why can't you see your kids? It was like halfway
Speaker 3: through the reading, and he was like, oh, I'm in prison.
Speaker 3: I was like, hold on what the book?
Speaker 2: Can not believe said? Dude paid to rent the cell
Speaker 2: phone in prison. I mean, that's cool. It's just wild's wild.
Speaker 3: It was wild, like and it was fun and I
Speaker 3: you know, I gave him, you know, my advice and
Speaker 3: all that, like it's all cool. But I was really
Speaker 3: touched by that actually, like because he was a genuine dude,
Speaker 3: Like he wanted to better his relationship with his kids,
Speaker 3: and I have nothing bad to say about that. And
Speaker 3: here he is like trying to get a reading in prison,
Speaker 3: Like good for I will.
Speaker 2: Say when I was in prison, I was exposed to
Speaker 2: a ton of occultism. Hmmm, just like how books. Uh
Speaker 2: there was books on like uh, there was a ton
Speaker 2: of Crawley books in there. There would be books on
Speaker 2: like different forms of ideas of magic, conspiracy books, David
Speaker 2: Ike books. You know, people into like like thinking that
Speaker 2: from like the plates and ship like that, like really
Speaker 2: any off the wall Dwight doctor Dwight York type ship.
Speaker 2: We started getting into like you know, five percent of shit,
Speaker 2: including aliens and twusting that shit. And then you know,
Speaker 2: the Muslims had their own like you know, mathematics and
Speaker 2: all that. You'd have those types of stuff in there,
Speaker 2: you know, Wes in there. There there was Satanists in there.
Speaker 2: There was there was actually I think a few Thelamites,
Speaker 2: but I really I knew of it and even did
Speaker 2: read Crowley stuff in there. But I wasn't like fucking
Speaker 2: with them too much. I just you know, but I
Speaker 2: knew there was a people do any.
Speaker 3: Magic in prison? Or like, how did your practice look
Speaker 3: like when you were in there?
Speaker 2: I you know, I wasn't really practiced. I didn't start
Speaker 2: actually start doing ritualistic work. I was basically just reading
Speaker 2: everything m hmm. I just start doing that until I
Speaker 2: got out. Yeah. But yeah, there was a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2: It was really weird. Actually, like when I talk about
Speaker 2: the Council of Nine and that will say on ship
Speaker 2: that was in a book that I found I read
Speaker 2: in prison.
Speaker 3: It was just crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there was just a lot of a lot
Speaker 2: of occult stuff in there, and it's very uh so,
Speaker 2: like I I it's just makes sense. I guess that
Speaker 2: maybe somebody would actually, you know, call you because there's
Speaker 2: people reading that ship in prison. Some of the stuff,
Speaker 2: some stuff I do have. I have wondered though. It's like, yo,
Speaker 2: is this ship getting dropped off in here so people
Speaker 2: believe some of the silliest shit possible. Mmmm. He saw
Speaker 2: it was just like off the wall, this whole Reptilian
Speaker 2: agundant whatever. But there's there's just something, you know, there's
Speaker 2: all sorts of wild, weird stuff in prison. It's interesting.
Speaker 3: That is interesting. Honestly.
Speaker 2: I remember the first time, the first time I ever
Speaker 2: even heard of Beheld the Pale Horse was in prison,
Speaker 2: and the big thing about it was that supposed he
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed in prison. So that's why, like even my
Speaker 2: bunky was like, oh, it was fucking book. I got
Speaker 2: there and he's like, we're not supposed to have this,
Speaker 2: and it was like some gang members, some high up
Speaker 2: gang member from the fucking uh to the Disciples, the
Speaker 2: gang to Gangster Disciples. Coolest motherfucking though. He was like
Speaker 2: he was like, yo, he was like reading this shit
Speaker 2: and he was like blowing his mind. You know, he
Speaker 2: was like, I fucking knew the government was fucking us.
Speaker 2: Like it was like this revelationary book to this kid.
Speaker 2: It was so funny to watch, like you read it
Speaker 2: and like get mind blown over it. Yeah. It was
Speaker 2: just wanting to see some like hardcore gangster kid like
Speaker 2: just like acting like himself, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, that was the first time I heard of it.
Speaker 2: It was like funny. Of course in prison, that's just interesting.
Speaker 3: That's so interesting. Magic book club in prison you knew,
Speaker 3: not me. I did not know that, but it makes
Speaker 3: sense now.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know a lot of things too, though.
Speaker 2: People get shit sent in and then they just leave
Speaker 2: it there. That's basically how the library was at Four Takes.
Speaker 2: I mean most of that is oldes books left over
Speaker 2: from people I left books there. I donated books to them.
Speaker 3: When I left, so apparently at least one of my
Speaker 3: books is in there somewhere.
Speaker 2: That is awesome, that's cool. The ship nice and which
Speaker 2: do you know which one was? I don't want to
Speaker 2: ask speakaus you know, yeah, I actually don't know.
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, like it's in my email somewhere, but honestly,
Speaker 3: I can't remember my head. Yeah, somewhere America on the
Speaker 3: other side of the wire.
Speaker 1: Because it turned out being Nick were at the same
Speaker 1: for it. I was just in the army and he
Speaker 1: was in the jail.
Speaker 2: But yeah, you know, the prison that I went to
Speaker 2: was Fort Dix in New Jersey, and it is an
Speaker 2: actual active army base too, So like I was literally
Speaker 2: in prison and he was on the other side of
Speaker 2: the fence and training. I was like, we realized at
Speaker 2: one point where I was like, what the fuck that
Speaker 2: he be saying? Right, that's.
Speaker 1: Interesting too, Right, So in basic training they let you
Speaker 1: choose which church you go to, and me and a
Speaker 1: couple of the other Witchier people they were like, well,
Speaker 1: we're wicking, we got to go out in the field.
Speaker 1: So they let us go out of the field with
Speaker 1: our tarot cards on Sundays.
Speaker 2: Did they give you tobacco? Oh? Oh wait, you weren't
Speaker 2: in prison, that's right. I'm thinking we give you tobacco.
Speaker 3: That's cool though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had people were like can we go with them?
Speaker 1: We just want to sit in the field. We don't
Speaker 1: want to go to church or anything. So we got
Speaker 1: a lot more members that way.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 2: That's even another thing. I think even there, they had
Speaker 2: some sort of Native American thing and I'm almost positive
Speaker 2: there was some wicked thing that allowed them to have
Speaker 2: tobacco too for their services. So that was like a
Speaker 2: way that you see like tobacco going around getting sold.
Speaker 2: H yeah, yeah no, but I'm just saying, like I
Speaker 2: think I remember it even came like the like the
Speaker 2: Wickens were even i think even acknowledged in this prison
Speaker 2: and given like tobacco for the ritual ship. So I
Speaker 2: mean there, Yeah, there was a lot of shit going
Speaker 2: on at that place.
Speaker 3: That's interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: I like read a book about like prison magic.
Speaker 1: I would I think ethnography right there, prison magic, you.
Speaker 2: Know who probably actually has shit on that and then
Speaker 2: that to promote the guy I'm wondering, Damien Echles, I
Speaker 2: mean that guy was in prison for fucking how long?
Speaker 2: He says he was still practicing magic in there.
Speaker 5: Hm hmmm.
Speaker 2: So you know who Damien Nichols is, Sabrina. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean it could be a controversial character, but you
Speaker 2: know whatever, I'm just saying he was in prison for
Speaker 2: a long time and supposed to sp.
Speaker 1: Doing magic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if he was in prison, sometimes I question what
Speaker 2: sh it's real and what's not with this stuff anymore?
Speaker 2: But uh yeah, anything else that you would like to uh,
Speaker 2: you know, at least maybe promote or anything that you
Speaker 2: could talk about.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I could talk forever about whatever you
Speaker 3: guys want. But to promote I guess, yes, tarot things.
Speaker 3: I'm very good actually at doing the tarot. So if
Speaker 3: anyone does want to get a reading listening to this,
Speaker 3: you know where to find me the Internet. It's kind
Speaker 3: of my big thing. Otherwise, this might sound a bit odd,
Speaker 3: but I'm doing a lot of life coaching right now, okay,
Speaker 3: and like interestingly, almost all of my clients are men. Actually, no,
Speaker 3: all of my life coaching clients right now are men,
Speaker 3: and so it's like life coaching with spirituality and magic
Speaker 3: stuff kind of rolled in there. So it's a lot
Speaker 3: of teaching people virtual spiritual stuff they can kind of
Speaker 3: do to get their shit on track, which has been
Speaker 3: honestly such a fucking fun time. And like I love
Speaker 3: working with men, like so there's like I mean, business, decisive, respectful, No,
Speaker 3: they show up with an agenda, like a little itinerary
Speaker 3: of things I want to get into, Like I fucking
Speaker 3: love it. Like it's so interesting as ten years ago
Speaker 3: my clients are pretty much ninety five percent women, and
Speaker 3: now it's like completely flipped. And I don't really know
Speaker 3: why that happened, Like I didn't change anything per se
Speaker 3: about myself or whatever, So I don't know, but it's
Speaker 3: been great, Like it's been really really fun to work
Speaker 3: with folks.
Speaker 2: In that way. I could see from my experience from
Speaker 2: being like in the OTO or just being like around
Speaker 2: the witch Grift community or other like orders. When you
Speaker 2: start getting into like more of the ceremonial shit, you'll
Speaker 2: definitely see a much more a male uh population. And
Speaker 2: as you start getting closer to less of that and
Speaker 2: more I think towards witchcraft, much more women. So I
Speaker 2: don't know if it's the whole thing of being structured.
Speaker 2: Maybe the women don't want that and the guys are
Speaker 2: just very much like I'm regimented. Just this this, this, this,
Speaker 2: and that's how it works.
Speaker 3: It's it's been interesting.
Speaker 2: I have noticed that myself not saying either be the
Speaker 2: ones right or wrong. I think you probably need a
Speaker 2: little bit both.
Speaker 3: But you know absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's been
Speaker 3: a fun time. So it's been a lot of what
Speaker 3: I've been doing these days. And I guess you promote
Speaker 3: like my books, I've got a lot, they're on Amazon.
Speaker 3: I don't know, like at least one of them will
Speaker 3: be a good present for yourself or someone else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And you did all the art yourself correct,
Speaker 2: literally all of it. That is impressive too, Like there
Speaker 2: has to be time consuming.
Speaker 3: Oh for sure. Yeah, So like it'll take me a
Speaker 3: lot longer to do a graphic novel than like a
Speaker 3: prose book. Like a prose book, I can spit out
Speaker 3: pretty quickly, but a graphic novel, like the drawing takes
Speaker 3: way longer than the writing. Yeah, incredibly laboring and so
Speaker 3: for sure. And I'll get like a little like pain
Speaker 3: in my elbow from like painting for so long. It's
Speaker 3: it's a lot, but wow, but it's fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be definitely, I guess, like a lover
Speaker 2: of passion that stuff if you keep doing it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I've always been an artist and I can't
Speaker 3: imagine never painting again, you know. And like I used
Speaker 3: to be a commercial artist, so it's like magazine cover
Speaker 3: stuff like that, like art for other people's commercial situations,
Speaker 3: and so now it's just all illustrating my own writing.
Speaker 3: Like that's kind of more my focus these days. And
Speaker 3: I love the blend of images and writing. And I
Speaker 3: think with something like witchcraft and magic, it does make
Speaker 3: sense to have a visual component because most of these
Speaker 3: books about magic there isn't necessarily always a visual So
Speaker 3: part of what I do with my graphic novels is
Speaker 3: to at least depict, like what does that process feel
Speaker 3: like for me? Because if you just look at someone
Speaker 3: practicing magic, it doesn't usually look like there's anything going on,
Speaker 3: Like it looks like they're like sitting peacefully in front
Speaker 3: of a candle or something like, which is totally fine,
Speaker 3: but to basically be able to depict what that spiritual
Speaker 3: experience feels like, like going on a spiritual journey to
Speaker 3: do this or that, or a spirit contact or YadA,
Speaker 3: YadA like For me, the graphic novel opens up a
Speaker 3: lot of possibilities in terms of communicating, like what does
Speaker 3: magic feel like experientially? At least from my perspective.
Speaker 1: That's great. Somebody somebody a cult to suck at art
Speaker 1: like specific I.
Speaker 2: Don't even attempt it. I don't even attempt the ship
Speaker 2: no way stick figures.
Speaker 1: So it's nice to see what that's really on top
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that.
Speaker 4: Do you my best ever very nicely mention that because
Speaker 4: we on the Tutor's spaces we do on the Great Launch,
Speaker 4: we talk a lot about like uh, movies or books
Speaker 4: or you know, uh, drawing the Enemy what ever that
Speaker 4: does exactly this that you mentioned, Like, they'll they'll use
Speaker 4: some kind of esoteric thing.
Speaker 5: To explain the story, and then if someone is just
Speaker 5: watching it for the story, they won't necessarily know it.
Speaker 4: But if you know the thing, it's like obvious that
Speaker 4: they're using some kind of magical thing, and so you
Speaker 4: get it. It's a very nice hyper repertoire that you
Speaker 4: can build as well for your own practical things, because yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean ceremonial magic. That's the thing people don't understand
Speaker 4: as well, like ceremonial magic, it's not about the actual
Speaker 4: things that you're wearing in swam because that by itself
Speaker 4: doesn't matter.
Speaker 5: Like yeah, sure i can wear some sword and whatever.
Speaker 4: And speak stuff, but if I'm not applying the stuff
Speaker 4: with my mind and emotions and everything, then yeahspoint.
Speaker 3: So absolutely, yeah. I think a lot of people like
Speaker 3: don't realize that if they're newer to the space, like
Speaker 3: they do think that there is just like this magic
Speaker 3: esthetic or this witchy esthetic and you just have to
Speaker 3: perform the aesthetic, like the kind of hairy potterification of
Speaker 3: craft aesthetics, and like you're good, that's all you have
Speaker 3: to do. But like you're right, like it is all
Speaker 3: mine based half the time.
Speaker 2: And I even into that. I even fell into that myself.
Speaker 3: So you know, yeah, I'm like speaking of art and
Speaker 3: creativity too, Like for me, the practice and the process
Speaker 3: of creating art or writing, like it's very similar in
Speaker 3: terms like to my magical practice in terms of like
Speaker 3: the energy flow and like the arc of like channeling
Speaker 3: something like touching into a particular energy current and then
Speaker 3: just riding the wave and letting it come through. Like
Speaker 3: for me, there is a similarity there ritualistically, which I
Speaker 3: think is probably the same thing for quite a few
Speaker 3: like occulty artist type folks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty much, there we go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 5: Is not your work?
Speaker 3: Oh cool?
Speaker 2: I love this, Like right behind you, he's note a
Speaker 2: couple of pieces. It's getting better. Even made his own
Speaker 2: easel out of like a fucking branch.
Speaker 3: I've like never used an easel in my life. I
Speaker 3: just paint flat.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, okay, you were saying your elbow before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's it's a wet medium that
Speaker 3: I use. It's like India ink, So if I painted,
Speaker 3: it would have Pollock type of vibes, which is not
Speaker 3: exactly what I'm going for.
Speaker 4: And it's kind of kind of crucial for anyone trying
Speaker 4: to improve on Magic and Storm to have some kind
Speaker 4: of artistic doesn't have to be you know, painting could be, music,
Speaker 4: could be anything like just making stuff with that kind
Speaker 4: of creative part of the brain, like more right side brain.
Speaker 5: It also helps getting into states, so it's pretty cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Even cooking or something like that, something where
Speaker 3: it need to like follow that intuitive flow. I think
Speaker 3: sports like physicality, like sports something like that, like a
Speaker 3: form of movement that can also be like or even dance.
Speaker 3: I guess that that can be creative too.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: I mean you have to be creative to be good
Speaker 4: at the sport, right, Like if you're playing basketball or something,
Speaker 4: you cannot do the same shot over and over. People
Speaker 4: pick up on that, so you have to come up
Speaker 4: with new ways and you kind of have to get there,
Speaker 4: and that getting there is the same getting there when
Speaker 4: you're doing magic.
Speaker 3: So totally it's like there's a flow state that we
Speaker 3: have to access.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, I totally agree that it's almost like
Speaker 2: the same thing is like for me as a ceremonial magician,
Speaker 2: it's like when I get into that flow state during
Speaker 2: the ritual, it's just going, you don't know, I can
Speaker 2: see what you're saying. It's almost like a physical meditation.
Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah. Ye, Honestly, I think like a lot of
Speaker 3: magic e folks are very like brain dominant or like
Speaker 3: up here dominant, which is why I always like tell
Speaker 3: my students, like, do something physical that you have to
Speaker 3: like touch reality, like whether that is like painting, cooking,
Speaker 3: going to the gym, playing soccer, like I don't care,
Speaker 3: Like do something that gets you in touch with the bodies,
Speaker 3: Like the body is the vessel of magic and spirit
Speaker 3: and all of that, like as much as it is mental,
Speaker 3: like there is that like body as instrument of magic,
Speaker 3: thing like body as sensor. And so the more embodied
Speaker 3: people are, I think, the better everything kind of tends
Speaker 3: to go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I totally agree. I think, you know, kind
Speaker 2: of taking care of your bodies should be something that
Speaker 2: more people will porate into.
Speaker 3: And it's interesting that that's not really the case. I
Speaker 3: find a lot of people are just happy to stay
Speaker 3: in the mental and completely neglect to the physical, whether
Speaker 3: it's like eating bad, never working out like whatever.
Speaker 2: It is very interesting and I've done that mistake myself
Speaker 2: too throughout my career, your magical career. Stopped going to
Speaker 2: the gym as much as focus and more on that.
Speaker 2: You know, I did notice a little bit more changes
Speaker 2: and myself went back to the gym and realized I
Speaker 2: was like, wow, I actually feel better. I was left
Speaker 2: stress because like even though I'm meditating for me, even
Speaker 2: though to the gym, like I was saying before, I
Speaker 2: think it's a physical meditation to an extent totally, you know,
Speaker 2: And it's like that I could go to the gym
Speaker 2: in the morning and like leave and it's like my
Speaker 2: day would be good if I didn't go. I could
Speaker 2: realize I'm a cranky motherfucker. Now later it's like, I,
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't get like, you know, I didn't
Speaker 2: exert all that energy through the weights instead of my.
Speaker 3: Mouth, you know, totally, and like there is a channeling
Speaker 3: of energy aspect to them too, like like like there
Speaker 3: is like to be that. I think it's so interesting.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people in the occult space
Speaker 3: are kind of like a bit more art se, let's say,
Speaker 3: and not everyone is super grounded in the physical and
Speaker 3: the gym is magical I think for sure.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, very I think it's al chemical for me.
Speaker 2: I believe it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: I'll definitely after the show, if you don't mind, you
Speaker 2: send me like all the links that you have. I
Speaker 2: think you might just have a link tree or something
Speaker 2: that has all your stuff. Okay, all right, but uh yeah,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on. This is really fun.
Speaker 2: I'd definitely like to get you back on and chop
Speaker 2: it up with maybe some more topics or some other specifics,
Speaker 2: but definitely had a great time having you on. Thank you.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thanks you so much, thank you for inviting me. This
Speaker 3: has been honestly a blast my snowy afternoon. You guys
Speaker 3: are all awesome friends, super fun.
Speaker 2: Yes, well again, thank I don't I think we talked
Speaker 2: about it off, but thank chat GPT because I threw
Speaker 2: in a whole bunch of a cold podcasted there. I
Speaker 2: was like, yo, pull out the best guests and like
Speaker 2: the best topics like that these oldies shows have had,
Speaker 2: and it spits you out among other people that I
Speaker 2: already knew of. So I was like, oh, okay, all right,
Speaker 2: let's get her on.
Speaker 3: I love it. Yeah, the same question and see if
Speaker 3: it mentions me. I want to see, like chat GPT
Speaker 3: big me up, like, let's see, it'll be funny.
Speaker 4: You know what.
Speaker 3: I've actually got some terrat clients recently from chat GPT
Speaker 3: recommending me too, which is very interesting.
Speaker 2: Oh nice, wow, nice new Google. Yeah, so I can't
Speaker 2: complain that's interesting.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: I wonder sometimes if that even happens when people typing
Speaker 2: your shit in there already and it starts already, you know,
Speaker 2: like that you exist.
Speaker 3: I'm sure it happens to people finding your show too.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is interesting shit.
Speaker 2: But uh yeah, I'll definitely get all your links and
Speaker 2: include them all. Thank you again, like I said, for
Speaker 2: coming on. It was a great chat, like it'd be definitely.
Speaker 2: Can I think talk to you about some other stuff
Speaker 2: in the future real quick before we end it. Matt
Speaker 2: also let to let everybody know what is going on
Speaker 2: with you.
Speaker 5: Yes, so again. Can find me on many socials.
Speaker 4: That's always at Metmoor nineteen on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, Twitch,
Speaker 4: maybe some other place. There are the Gray Lodge spaces
Speaker 4: every Friday on Twitter. That's gonna be also on our website,
Speaker 4: the True Gray Lodge with the v so true dot
Speaker 4: com so the True Grade Lodge dot com and my
Speaker 4: website Cabala dot com. That's k A A B A
Speaker 4: l a h dot com. If you want any type
Speaker 4: of strategy reading, moralogy reading, machra reading, energy reading, or
Speaker 4: just some match corporation, you can find me there. I'm
Speaker 4: gonna do those a little bit more of this same
Speaker 4: year and thinks they're going to change up next month,
Speaker 4: so enjoy while it's open there. And there's always the
Speaker 4: little apps and stuff that yeah, always updating it and
Speaker 4: improving so I feel like that.
Speaker 5: Just make sure to go to the website. Thanks again, Nick,
Speaker 5: it was blast and stuff that you spoke to much
Speaker 5: and yeah, nice stuff.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Matt. I appreciate you making it and Headless
Speaker 2: my man. Everybody know where they can find your stuff
Speaker 2: and remind him about these shows.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. You can find me on Twitter and on Instagram
Speaker 1: and on YouTube. Check out the Headless Giant. I have
Speaker 1: Alchemy Mondays with Arrows I've got coming up tonight, We've
Speaker 1: got seven seven seven with me and Nick. We'll go
Speaker 1: through the Kabala of Alistair Crowley and then on Thursdays,
Speaker 1: send us your emails at Headless Giant Podcast at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com and we will read your occult slash esoteric
Speaker 1: slash paranormal stories as we go over our favorite symbols
Speaker 1: throughout all of history. So check us out. And also
Speaker 1: on Sundays, I've got the Trialogues with Ethan Indigo and Ricardo.
Speaker 1: I've had some substitutes hopping in well. I've been on vacation,
Speaker 1: so check those out as well.
Speaker 2: Thank you, nice, Thank you very much, and Sabrina again,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on. It was an
Speaker 2: awesome chat. Definitely look forward to maybe having you on
Speaker 2: after you get this PhD, you know, hopefully you get
Speaker 2: that good Yes, yes, yes, no, no no, but I'm
Speaker 2: just saying, like I like to have you, like to
Speaker 2: hear you come back on and say you have it.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying. That would be great. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's awesome. Yes, we'll definitely keep in touch. And again,
Speaker 2: thank you all, And that's the end of another recult Rejects.
Speaker 2: Until the next one. Everybody be well later.