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Speaker 1: You know, like the Gnostics or whatever. I just call

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him crazy. So you're you're you're a goober. You're an idiot,

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a goofball. That's about it. Jooshah Fat Julian Canadian two dollars.

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Sam Shamun apologized, okay on about what I mean. Josiah

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A leron twenty dollars, God bless you. The Calvioc turned

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Orthodox because of you and your examples. Santos humane is

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ten dollars. Sam apologized about five minutes ago. Okay, I mean,

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if we want to be on good terms, I'm open

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to that. I hope this doesn't divide people. We all

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keep walking. Respect everything that you do. CAUCUSUS two pounds

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or two euros. I never thought Sam would do this.

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Lord of Mercy MKG Canadian five dollars and forget. I'm

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all for forgiveness, but what is a bipolar apology worth?

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Sam needs help? Well, I mean I'm fine with I

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have to think about what would be the wisest course here.

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So Joey says we're two dollars. We need Jay on

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the Whatever podcast? Now guess what? So I did talk

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to Brian today from Whatever, it looks like what we're

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gonna do is We're gonna have a debate on whatever

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in about a month, and I think I'm going to

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debate not so Aerdite that debated Jim Bob and Jake Rattlesnake.

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There's also going to be a debate about the CI's

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relationship to ISIS and al Qaeda that I'll be debating

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a post a profit. But it looks like that'll have

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to be June because the first time we can do

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it him and me is like June. So I think

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in June we're going to try to do that, and

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then I'll be going on to perhaps other large podcasts

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on the West Coast in the next month. So we're

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trying to make that happen. Tain't nothing ten dollars. Did

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you see Dave Smith versus Doug Murray on Joe Rogan

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Israel debate. I was actually gonna play this tomorrow, so

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you see that Rogan. I've got like fifty clips for

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tomorrow's stream that I thought would be funny to watch.

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It was just going to be a chill string. Murray's

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entire argument was an appeal to thirty. He said, if

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you've not been to Israel, you can't speak that's what.

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That's what not so Aerdite's debate partner was saying in

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their debate right which they were debating patriarchy and feminism

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and all that guy, All that guy I wanted to

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say is that you can't talk about Israel. Haven't been there, Like,

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what does that have to do with patriarchy. Let's talk God.

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Ten dollars. Dick Toddus, Pope number nine. All the princes

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of the world shall kiss the feet of the Pope

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number ten. His name alone will be spoken in the

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church is number eleven. This is the only name in

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the world. Greg was going crazy. Oh I'm a pope, Gregory. Yes,

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So again, if you're not aware of this, here is

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Dick Tatus, Pope number nine. All the princes of the

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world will kiss the feet of the Pope number ten.

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His name alone is that which can be spoken in

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the churches, number eleven. It's the only name in the world.

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There is that. So we got a bunch of super

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chats here. I'm trying to get through these, and then

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we'll go to refuting allbrecks, low tier paper stuff, MKG

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two dollars. That's why anti Muslim conversions are suspicious no

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head to quest two dollars. The latest community post is apology.

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He says that you started if you're not innocent. Okay,

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I mean, I'm sorry that he took it as a feud,

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like for me to DM him. Okay, I didn't know

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that causes him to be so mad. Okay. Most people,

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you know, they might be tempted to look at their

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phone if they're on an interview and their board or something,

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But most people like I, I've not looked at my

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phone this entire live stream. So how am I supposed

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to know that it triggers him when somebody messages him

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on him on his phone? Quest outset Eddie five bucks

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or all worldviews circular? You said it before in debates.

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I think maybe because people hear the word circular and

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they think of the fallacy of circularity, it might be better,

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as FDA says, to refer to it as recursive or

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self referencing. Gilbert Valenzuela five dollars. My family and are

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being baptized a Saturday. The Orthodox Church says, probab, your

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hard work played a big part in my conversion from

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the Roman Catholic Church. Hey man, I appreciate that that's

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great to hear. Bad ghosts Face five dollars. For what

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it's worth, Sam is taking out his post and he

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posted apology. All right, So Sam called you a coward,

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he didn't apologize, okay, I mean, I don't know what

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san Diego Sanchez five dollars, Sam the paranormal, paranoral ORB

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guy won't go Orb Novus Orbo Forever Notorious Knives five dollars.

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Look at Sam's latest YouTube post, Bad ghost Face two dollars.

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Never mind Sid two dollars. It's called samifesting. I condom

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Matt three dollars. Solo Orbo Skima Bear five dollars. Hello,

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orb theory a colcavayable five dollars, should debate orthodox musclem Now,

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somebody asked me about this today, and I'm not familiar

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with who he is. He's calling you out on TikTok

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and has seventy thousand TikTok followers. I tried to build

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up my TikTok, but it's difficult. So I wonder if

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he has does he have like a YouTube or something,

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I mean, if we maybe we can set it up

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outside of TikTok. It's just a hassle to try to

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do stuff like that on TikTok, So does he have

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a Twitter that'd be easier for me outset Eddy two dollars.

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How do you go to the bathroom with carnivore die

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without fiber? You don't actually need fiber, by the way,

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if you drink coffee, that works well at annual five dollars.

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I tried to listening for Bible explanations, but I stopped

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because it's impossible to follow the topic when he stops

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to bash somebody every two minutes. As funny as that

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can be, but it's our five dollars. He's calling Jay

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out for a debate. Now, I look, just forget it man,

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one shot a seventeen twenty dollars what you said about

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Internet apologists not being qualified to teach theology. If you

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look at David Wood's recent debate with Alex, this came

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to mind. There were a few months that we had

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a team up where we had a Jay Dyer up there,

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and Alex would have gotten eviscerated. Yeah. I mean I've

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messaged at Alex O'Connor for a long time to try

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to debate, so it just gets ignored. Chris Crimson Specter

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two dollars. Cat hairs are now meauricles. That's a good

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one as ghost. Two dollars, Jay, will you debate Harlot's

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on the whatever? Well, the way that show works is

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typically you debate anybody. I guess, but I'm gonna mainly

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be debating not so aradit, but I'm sure I'll also

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be debating the other people in there. Jbpelty a two dollars,

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Sam is going live in a few Okay, I mean

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I don't like I've laid out my critiques. So there

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you go, dank naked five dollars. What is it? We're

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gonna get to the papsy stuff in a second. What

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is a good starting point to learn about Orthodox position?

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I'm not a Catholic. I want to learn more. Pamazansky's

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book is a great uh kanachisis text Orthodox Dogmatics by Palmazansky,

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So I would start there and then maybe moved to

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Lasky's Mystical Theology Eastern Church. Jay Rock seven to eleven.

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Who is Jeff Daherty?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 1: Well, he was some sort of evangelical ish pastor who

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then became a neo pagan and he debated Andrew So

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I haven't kept up with that guy. Accounts payable two dollars.

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I do not believe that Aposse Prophet is genuine in

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his conversion. You know time, I think will tell Joe

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five dollars. Sam didn't really apologize. He has a community

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post's apology for his audience. It says that you demonized him.

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I mean, where what's where's the demonizing? Where's the anything?

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All I did was ask him to debate, and you've

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got like meltdown. He doesn't have any evidence of me

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ever saying anything negative to him or bad about him

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or anything. I've literally always been respectful to him, and

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even after the drama when I asked him, when I

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asked him to come and set up something where we

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can have time responses. This is what I got.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna call you out. We're gonna get you. Don't

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worry about it now, girl, get.

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Speaker 4: Some more energies.

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Speaker 5: Maybe I'll help you. Like I said, thanks, I'm going

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to show them more round from way.

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Speaker 6: Down Jo David.

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Speaker 1: Like he's referring to my jokes about James White that

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it doesn't make sense. But account's payable two dollars. He

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has a YouTube channel called or Orthodox Muslim outset Eddie

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two dollars Jay, Do you say pop or soda? Nobody

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from Tennessee says pop. That's a Yankee thing. Let's see,

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I'm trying to keep up with all the super I

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think I've gotten. Let me see, there's probably some more

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super jets over here. Let's see we got two new members.

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Shout out to the members with the members content is

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linked and I added a couple of things to the

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members content too, by the way, pretty recently. All right,

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so let's get to this in this one.

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Speaker 4: This is a fun topic. You know, we covered the

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americ of the conception. Another one that often comes up

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with Protestant circles and Orthodox circles especially is the papacy.

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So I wanted to talk about that now. In the

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last video you mentioned that for you, though there are

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other factors that came in to your conversion from Protestantism

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to Catholicism, the papacy was a big one. Tell me why.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well, it really played a very big role, number

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one when I converted from Protestantism. But of course that's

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like considered that way Orthodox and Cathos then of course

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it becomes a whole different angle where you look at

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evidence for the papacy, and I began to look at

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the history of the papacy throughout the early Church, Pope

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Saint Clement of Rome very early on, and on and on,

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leading all the way up to and beyond Pope Saint

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Leo the Great, and I became ever more convinced of

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the incredible role of the pope throughout history. Now, of course,

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I may be get too far ahead of myself before that.

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Of course, as we know very well, the clear foundation

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of the papacy is the Scripture. It truly is, so

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that laid the groundwork for me. Scripture of course.

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Speaker 1: Well, the first out here that I would say is

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that I went through all this same stuff too, right,

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So I had the same ideology as a Protestant who

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started reading The Catholic Apologist in two thousand and one.

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I went heavy into it. I read tons and tons

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of the secondary literature, and then I decided I to

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have to get the church Father's set right. So you

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see that set piece that's behind Lofton there where the

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untouched church Fathers are basically immaculate because he hasn't actually

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read them. I actually started reading them a lot, and

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I was fortunate enough to have a job where I

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could read the Church Fathers for about ten years straight.

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So this put me in a position that a lot

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of people don't have. I was also doing university at

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the same time, and I had a very easy job

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for about ten years in my twenties, and so that

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Philip schaff Church Father's set was a lot of my

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time at work. And I initially had a similar situation,

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probably to Albrech, where I thought, Okay, it's either Roman

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Catholic or it's Protestant, right, that's what it's got to be, right,

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And there weren't a whole lot of internet options back

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in about two thousand and one two three where you

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could look into, you know, like the Orthodox sphere or

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something like that. What you guys have today didn't exist

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in two thousand and three. And probably maybe Albrecht was

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getting into this kind of stuff back then as well.

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I don't know what year he converted, but it might

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have been around the same time as my interest in

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church history and the Church Fathers and the question of

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the canon, you know, back in early two thousands. But

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the problem is that it's very much it's a thing

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that's based on a lot of assumptions, and there's a

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lot of to use the Loftonian term, there's a lot

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of nuance and context that Roman Catholics leave out of

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their favorite quote minds. And when I first encountered the

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quote minds through you know Butler and Daalgren and Hess's book,

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Stephen Ray's work or Scott Hans books. I have all those.

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I read all those guys. I was reading all that

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stuff in the early two t thousands, right, Jerrymattitics is stuff.

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I got to be personal friends with Jerrymattics. So I

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went from Bonson World to Roman Catholic Thomas World in

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two thousand and one two three. That's when I was

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really reading and converted. I was already believing the Roman

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Catholic stuff in two thousand and one, but I didn't

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have the I wasn't convinced enough to convert yet. So

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it took me till about two thousand and three before

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I converted. And by the way, I took the name Augustine,

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which is funny. When I was received in the Kelly Church,

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and so you know, I've been there, done that. I

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know this whole process. I know the thinking, but what

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happens is that you're tempted, I think, to make the

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decision on bad reasons. In other words, you're when you

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get deeper and deeper into these papal things and you're

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reading the objections and this and that. I remember one

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time in my twenties there was even like a week

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where I remember vividly, just non stop reading every day

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for a week about the papacy stuff, and I could

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not decide. I was reading William Webster's book, his trilogy

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about it. It's all these Protestant you know, quote minds

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against the papacy. I was reading all these papal apologetics,

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and I felt like, you know, at a certain point,

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I'm just gonna go with papacy because it just seems

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like things like the canon, things like you know this,

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that it just doesn't work in the Protestant world. But

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what happens to people who are new to the world

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of Rome, which was me back then, is that you're

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not yet acquainted with the masses of papal documents and

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texts that you will have to read. Right. So, just

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like we see with like the Hadiths, it's not just

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the Bible and the ex cathedral statements or the Bible

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and you know the Catechism of Trands or the Bible

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and Denzinger, right, I mean they don't even read Denzinger

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like I know Denzinger like the back of my hand.

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I could. I could demolish these guys going through Denzinger.

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But you don't know that yet, right. You think it's

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just this Protestant or Catholic choice. And then when you

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go into the world of Rome, you're confronted with an

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entirely new set of problems. Now you have to understand

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the post pre and post Vatican Two teachings. And this

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confronts every Roman Catholic at a very fundamental parish level,

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because many Roman Catholic parishes are pretty much Protestantized. You see,

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they have guitar masses, they have women that hand out

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the Eucharist, they have clown masses, they have all the

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most insane, wild liturgical abuses that you could think of.

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And then what happens is you try to make sense

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of this. You try to say, well, I don't have

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to I know already the cope, the wave of cope

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that you will go through. You will begin by saying

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I don't have to accept all of the Vatican two stuff.

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I can read it and interpret it in a conservative way,

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but then you haven't really been presented with reading the

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pre Vatican two encyclicals like Lamentabiley, Patchindi, Dominici Gracias, like

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Humanum Janus, like Mauri Voss, like Quanticura, like Mesticiko Porus,

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like southeiast Cognitium. I can keep going. You don't know

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those things yet. You haven't read the pre Vatican two

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papal doctrines extensively. Well, I started doing that right. I

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realized if I was going to understand Catholicism, I'd have

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to go to the Rock of Peter and his great

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successors in the last three centuries and their vast array

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of papal and cyclicals. So guess what I did. I

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read them all. I read thousands of pages of papal

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and cyclicals. I read all of the of the thirteenths

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and cyclicals. I read all the important Pisce to tenth

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and cyclicals. I read multiple maybe not all of them

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because they're not all translated into English. But I've read

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Pias to twelfth extensively. I've read Piss the eleventh extensively,

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and I've even gone back into the Butler the Alberigo

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two volume set that the Jesuits put out some decades ago.

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It's like a two hundred dollars set of the Ecumenical

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Council's original translations from the Jesuit scholars and Tanner and ALBERTA. Goo,

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I think, is it? And so I started reading the

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actually the Ecumenical Councils from the Roman Catholic vantage point, right,

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that's a very rare, unknown set. It's a two volume set.

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So I immersed myself in all this world. On top

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of the source documents, as well as getting Denzinger and

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reading it entirely all the way through, as well as

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having the Catechism of Trent as well as having the

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documents Attican two. I also got the secondary literature. That

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means I went through all of the traditional Catholic apologies.

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And so what happens for a lot of people who

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go into this world, who get to this stage is

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you begin to confront do you want to be a

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trad cat or you're going to defend the novasorto. Each

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of them has their respective challenges. I went the route

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of trad cat. I went to the SSPX, I attended

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to the Latin Mass for around eight to ten years,

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maybe nine years technically eight or nine years, and I

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was in that world very seriously, very intently. I even

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met with a guy about going into monastical life back

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in my twenties, so I was serious enough that I

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really wanted to think about monastic life. However, the thing

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that turned me off from monastic life was when I

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went to the diocese spiritual director for that. He was skittles,

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like flaming Skittles, and then I read that most of

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the Dominicans in the Roman Catholic world are flaming Skittles.

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Bye bye, I'm out. I'm so glad I never went

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that route. But the problem is that if you go

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this route, this delusion that these people are into, this

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is what you're going to have to choose between. Do

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you want to be a crazy tradcat. Do you want

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to be a Skittles novasorto? Do you want to be

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a do you want to go the route of the

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diocesan Latin Mass. Oh turns out Francis has been shutting

325
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those down, So good luck finding your way through the

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maze of this nightmare.

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Speaker 6: It was very clear extree me out of Protestantism. But then,

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of course, a lot of the claims that we can

329
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make for the papacy, we know very well the Orthodox

330
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will say, Okay, I can be on board with that. Yeah,

331
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but we know that that then changes when we go

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into history, and in my opinion, the evidence for the

333
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papacy on the Catholic side is much stronger.

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Speaker 4: Do you feel like on the Catholic side some of

335
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the evidence that has been put forward sometimes is reading

336
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too much into it. Not that there isn't strong evidence,

337
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but what I'm saying is impopular apologetic circles. Yeah, do

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you feel like some of the evidence that is put

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forward is not necessarily the best that we have off Yes?

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Speaker 1: For once, I agree with Michael lofton probably ever right.

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Speaker 6: I think that there is a tendency to grab papal

342
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sound bites, Peter sound bites where you will have a

343
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quote of Peters being the head of the cheech, or

344
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a Peter being the leader of the apostles, and we

345
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will utilize that as an evidence of the papacy. And

346
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as you know very well, Michael, a lot of those

347
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quotes the Orthodox can very well give an aim into

348
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and to add to that, Oriental Orthodox as well.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so actually from the outseter, I actually agree

350
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with this. So they've started off on surprisingly a pretty

351
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good foot here.

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Speaker 6: What separates us when it comes to how we view

353
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the papacy? I think that we need to go beyond

354
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mirror quote bites. Sure, but here's another thing. I think

355
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that once we do go beyond that, and we look

356
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at the context, in my opinion scripturely and in the

357
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early Church, there really is no other other position.

358
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Speaker 1: Now, okay, so I appreciate the admission that not all

359
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,319
of the you know, catchphrases Roma spoken cases closed right.

360
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We hear this all the time. There's a great post

361
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from Luigi pointing out that you look at the context

362
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of let's see, I think I saved it. Let's let's

363
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:40,680
pull up Luigi quote here. Yeah. So, as one example

364
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of this, right, we often hear the Romans spoken cases

365
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closed right, supposedly proving what exactly the final universal jurisdiction

366
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of the papacy. Well wait, wait a minute, Augustine in

367
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context says, let us suppose that the bishops who decided

368
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a case at Rome were not good judges. Wait a minute,

369
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how is that possible? If bat can one true, there

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00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,880
still remains a plenary Council of the Universal Church in

371
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which these judges might be put on their defense, so

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that if they were convicted of mistake, their decisions would

373
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be reversed. That's Augustine Letter forty three, paragraph nineteen. So no,

374
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,400
there's no When you take out of context statements like

375
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Rome is spoken cases closed, which would be Rome's decision

376
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,319
a particular situation, it does not follow that Rome therefore

377
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had universal jurisdiction and everyone accepted it and it's therefore

378
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case closed. That's not what it meant. And he seems

379
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,000
to be maybe conceding part of that. I don't know

380
00:24:36,079 --> 00:24:39,640
exactly which catchphrases he's talking about, but let's remember that

381
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Chi eighty, the Chi eighty document here, this is the

382
00:24:54,240 --> 00:25:01,559
pretty recent admission from the papacy about else the status

383
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,519
of the canons of Sartica and in what way Rome

384
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,200
was appealed to. This is the appellate structure. If you

385
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,720
watch the debate between Ubi and Ibarra, right, some of

386
00:25:12,759 --> 00:25:15,519
the material came up. And actually when I first debated

387
00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:18,720
aborrow years ago, I actually referenced this, and everyone sort

388
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,839
of laughed and poo pooed. What I said, but it's

389
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,480
actually admitted right here in paragraph nineteen. Over the centuries,

390
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,319
the number of appeals were made to the Bishop of Rome,

391
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,839
also from the East, in disciplinary matters such as the

392
00:25:31,839 --> 00:25:34,880
deposition of a bishop. Now this sumption, because it notes

393
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,160
that the appeals were disciplinary in nature, this doesn't say

394
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,319
from the outset that the appeals are to settle theological

395
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,240
doctrinal controversies. It says disciplinary matters such as the deposition

396
00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:51,720
of a bishop and attempts was made at the cans

397
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,319
of Sartica in three forty three to establish the rules

398
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,920
of procedure. So this is the appellate structure where you

399
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,839
have kind of appeals court system. Right Artica was received

400
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,799
at Trollo in six po ninety two, and the Canons

401
00:26:03,799 --> 00:26:06,119
of Sartica determined that a bishop who had been condemned

402
00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:10,039
could appeal to the Bishop of Rome, and that the latter,

403
00:26:10,079 --> 00:26:14,559
if he deemed it appropriate, could order a retrial. Now,

404
00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:18,119
does this say that the Bishop of Rome unilaterally makes

405
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:24,160
the decision that shuts the door? It closed? Case closed?

406
00:26:24,319 --> 00:26:28,279
Does this say Rome is spoken cases closed? No, it

407
00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:31,279
says that the Biserrome can order a retrial to be

408
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,000
conducted in the bishop's providence. It's not even conducted in Rome,

409
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:42,599
It's conducted in the bishop in questions own province. Appeals

410
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,160
regarding disciplinary matters were also made to constantin Up. Remember

411
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,160
when I said this in the bar debate and they

412
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,680
all acted like I made this up. Oh, here's your

413
00:26:50,759 --> 00:26:56,519
own papal page, your own papal approved acumenist document admitting

414
00:26:56,599 --> 00:26:59,880
my point. And to other seas. Yeah, of course. If

415
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:04,200
I I was Maximus and I was disputing with the

416
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,599
Monothelites and I wanted to get the bishops on my side,

417
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,279
I'm gonna appeal to Rome and Constantinople and other seas,

418
00:27:13,319 --> 00:27:17,519
and Antioch and Jerusalem and everywhere. I want them all

419
00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:20,440
on my side. The fact that I appealed to Rome

420
00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:23,119
because it's the first see, it doesn't follow from that

421
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,599
that Rome is the only one that I would appeal to.

422
00:27:25,759 --> 00:27:28,839
This is the silly argument of the Roman Catholics, especially

423
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,119
a Barrow when I debated Borrow. Such appeals to the

424
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,759
major seas were always treated in a unilateral way. Oh,

425
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,839
it doesn't say that they were treated in a what

426
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:44,039
way synodical way. In other words, the Bishop of Rome

427
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,279
didn't out of hand autocratically determine the matter. It was

428
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:55,759
referred to a synod synodole. Why is Francis holding a

429
00:27:55,799 --> 00:28:01,960
synod on sinidelity? Because they're admitting our positions. This means

430
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,880
that Vatican one isn't true. Appeals to the Bishop of

431
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,640
Rome from the East expressed the communion of the church,

432
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,279
but the Bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority

433
00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:17,960
over the churches of the East. What does that tell

434
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:23,039
you right there? How is Vatican one true? When we

435
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,599
read that Vatican One, as you guys, I hope no,

436
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,720
teaches that the Bishop of Rome has universal, unilateral jurisdiction

437
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,680
over all of the world, and that he got that

438
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,119
from Peter. Vatican one doesn't say that it evolved. It

439
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:42,079
wasn't a development of doctrine. It's from Peter.

440
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,319
Speaker 4: It's most certainly one of those distinctive teachings that if

441
00:28:49,359 --> 00:28:53,799
you were to embrace it, it's like the only real

442
00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:57,799
option that you could go to is Catholicism. But you

443
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,279
then mentioned there, okay, but there is a certain form

444
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,240
of the papacy, if you will, that Orthodox can accept.

445
00:29:06,839 --> 00:29:10,799
How different do you think is maybe a high Orthodox

446
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,799
version of the papacy is compared to the Captain version.

447
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,839
Speaker 6: I think it is different enough that would warrant one

448
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,839
to convert to Catholicism. I truly do think it's that different.

449
00:29:24,039 --> 00:29:27,880
I think that we are living in a time where

450
00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:32,599
people are looking at the quotes of the papacy and

451
00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:36,880
people that are Orthodox, and they realize, well, this doesn't

452
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,480
quite jibe with the way my view of the Church

453
00:29:40,559 --> 00:29:45,359
is today. So they begin to read into history kinds

454
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,640
of words or teachings that they're they're kind of ripping

455
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,680
out of the context. For example, one incredible example, I

456
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,240
could think of the words of Pope Saint Leo the Great,

457
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:03,000
the tone of Leo at Calcdon. It's amazingly evident that

458
00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:06,559
Pope Saint Leo the Great viewed his position as out

459
00:30:06,599 --> 00:30:08,319
of papal supremacy.

460
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because this has already been debloomked by

461
00:30:14,359 --> 00:30:20,400
the vast history that Ubi and Ibarra have already had.

462
00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:25,079
So this is, I guess, playing on the ignorance of

463
00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:28,079
the Catholic audience that Ubi and Ibarra have already been

464
00:30:28,079 --> 00:30:31,960
debating this for years, right, And this led to an

465
00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:39,559
entire series of exchanges actually over many years, where Ubi

466
00:30:39,599 --> 00:30:45,359
shows that the tone of Leo was not regarded as

467
00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:48,839
ex cathedral. And if I recall, this is like years

468
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,319
of stuff going back. This was years ago, but he

469
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,839
just made this public a few months ago. If I recall, eventually,

470
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,519
I think Ibarra admitted that, Okay, maybe it's not an

471
00:31:01,519 --> 00:31:06,480
easy proof that the tone of Leo was ex cathedral.

472
00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:10,160
So Ibara, if I recall, walked this back, and here

473
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,079
you go, right here, here's Ubi's refutation of point one that, no,

474
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,079
the tone of Leo does not prove ex cathedral. In fact,

475
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,880
Chalcedon if you read something like Denny's book Papalism, it

476
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,759
notes that Calcedon spent two weeks invested. It's either a

477
00:31:27,799 --> 00:31:31,880
week or two weeks investigating the tone to see if

478
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,559
it lined up with the teaching of Saint Cyril. Oh

479
00:31:35,599 --> 00:31:38,880
wait a minute, you thought Leo was the theologian part

480
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,759
of excellence of Calceodon. No, actually, the tone was judged

481
00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:46,200
by the synod to be either in accord with or

482
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,920
out of accord with the teaching of Saint Cyril. So

483
00:31:50,079 --> 00:31:53,559
Cyril was the measure of Calcedon. And you can read

484
00:31:53,559 --> 00:31:56,720
that in the Denny text. And no, there's no ex

485
00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:00,400
cathedra argument out of the tone of Leo.

486
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 6: No way around that, right, the language is very clear,

487
00:32:03,759 --> 00:32:08,200
and to deny that to me is you're gonna be

488
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:08,599
doing metal.

489
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: So again, argument number one has already been extensively refuted

490
00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:18,200
in Ubi's refutation of Abara about Leo and Calcedon. Here

491
00:32:18,279 --> 00:32:23,240
again is the link. So argument number one was I

492
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:28,279
guess lazy on the part of all brect because he's

493
00:32:28,279 --> 00:32:30,759
just repeating what probably what he read in Abara.

494
00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, Leo most certainly held to what I would understand

495
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,279
to be the view of Vatican one supremacy. I don't

496
00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:40,079
think that.

497
00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:44,039
Speaker 1: That is okay. Did you hear that the Vatican one

498
00:32:44,160 --> 00:33:04,000
view of papal supremacy unilateral, declarative, ex cathedral definitive teaching

499
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:13,079
right according to Vatican One, and that universality is directly

500
00:33:13,119 --> 00:33:17,319
from Peter. It is directly to the papacy, does not

501
00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:21,559
come from the Church. It comes directly from Peter to Rome.

502
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,960
Why it's not Antioch and Alexandria, which also derived from Peter. Well,

503
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,799
the Romancalloy Church just says because Peter died there. I mean,

504
00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:32,279
it's just because it is, it's tradition. It's just because

505
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,119
although that we don't have any proof of that. I

506
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:40,079
mean proof that because he died there therefore the Keroism

507
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:46,359
extends to the Roman Church. We'll notice that, according to

508
00:33:46,599 --> 00:33:54,039
Lofton and Ulbricht, all of the permanent premissy existed from

509
00:33:54,039 --> 00:34:03,279
the earliest days up until now and it's unilateral. But

510
00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:06,720
wait a minute, what did Rome just admit in the

511
00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:10,840
Chi eighty document appeals to the Bishop of Rome from

512
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,400
the east expressed the communion of the church, but the

513
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,559
Bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the

514
00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:22,079
churches of the East. Oops disputable.

515
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 4: What I guess my concern is whenever I see some

516
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:31,159
Catholics pointing to the language at Calcedony where it says,

517
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:37,679
you know, Peter has spoken through Leo right, immediately thinking

518
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,119
that that automatically proved the Catholic view, or that the

519
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:45,599
Calcedonian fathers the Catholic view of the papsy. I'm not

520
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:49,039
saying that they didn't. But what I'm saying is, or

521
00:34:49,079 --> 00:34:50,760
I guess what I'm asking is, do you think that

522
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,280
that alone is enough to really I don't.

523
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, and this is true, right, because you have

524
00:34:56,519 --> 00:35:01,039
statements from pre Calcedonian church fathers that all of the

525
00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:06,320
bishops are Peter, right, Peter is a All the bishops

526
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,440
are images of little Peters. So this just the phrase

527
00:35:10,519 --> 00:35:16,719
Peter has spoken through Leo, doesn't prove Vatican ones claim

528
00:35:17,119 --> 00:35:24,000
that the Bishop of Rome is the singular, autocratic universal

529
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:27,920
head of the entire church who can universally ex cathedra

530
00:35:28,039 --> 00:35:32,159
pronounce dogmas. It doesn't prove that. So I appreciate again

531
00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:34,239
that they're at least admitting a couple of things here

532
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:39,039
about these catchphrase arguments. But these catchphrase arguments actually don't

533
00:35:39,039 --> 00:35:44,960
address number one, the contradictions right that we referenced earlier,

534
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,000
the contradictions in what Roman Catholic dogma is in thirteen

535
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:53,400
oh two, in when I'm sunk them right and when

536
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,719
I'm signed to them in thirteen oh two. You have

537
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,559
to believe in the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop

538
00:35:58,639 --> 00:36:03,920
to be saved in Vatican two. In terms of religious

539
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:19,079
liberty indignatatis humane. What's fundamental to the human being is

540
00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:26,559
religious freedom dignitatis humane. HM. That's interesting because I seem

541
00:36:26,599 --> 00:36:31,679
to remember a Roman Catholic document called the Syllabus of Errors.

542
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,079
Now Pius the ninth is the pope of Vatican two,

543
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:47,400
mean Vatican One where you have the definition of the

544
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,880
universal supremacy of the Roman Bishop. And it's interesting because

545
00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,760
in this document he talks about errors can earning the

546
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:16,599
temporal supremacy of the Church and the Pope. And what's

547
00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:19,159
funny about this is that as late as Vatican won,

548
00:37:20,159 --> 00:37:26,599
you had the papacy still defending the temporal supremacy of

549
00:37:26,599 --> 00:37:37,079
the Roman Bishop. So let's talk about number fifteen. Every

550
00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:39,440
man is free to embrace and profess the religion that

551
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:44,760
he guided by the light of reason and considers true condemned.

552
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,760
So this is the section of the Syllabus of Airs

553
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,199
of Pius the ninth. And by the way, this was

554
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,360
attached to Vatican one, this is condemned in paragraph fifteen.

555
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,719
Right the rights to freedom of religion, freedom of choice,

556
00:37:59,039 --> 00:38:02,280
man may and the observance of any religion whatsoever find salvation.

557
00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:07,440
Was what does no retaughtes say that Hindus find refuge

558
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,559
in God in Hinduism, Men find refuge in God with

559
00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:15,400
love and trust. Man may, in the observance of any

560
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:21,199
religion whatsoever, find eternal salvation condemned. So then we come

561
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,000
down to errors concerning the Church and her rights. The

562
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:28,880
Syllabus of errors. This specifically says the Church has not

563
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,719
the power of defining dogmatically that the Church is the

564
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,079
calogy Church is the true religion. Condemned. So, in other words,

565
00:38:35,119 --> 00:38:40,360
not having Catholic states, the Church does not have temporal power. Condemned.

566
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:48,559
The ministers of the Church and the Roman pontiff are

567
00:38:48,599 --> 00:39:00,320
to be excluded from temporal dominion condemned. So US of

568
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:12,840
Errors paragraphs nineteen to twenty seven uphold the classic medieval

569
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:21,119
doctrine of dictatus Pope him sank them in the last paragraph.

570
00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:23,440
You have to believe in the temporal supremacy to be

571
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,639
saved all the way up into the eighteen nineties, or

572
00:39:26,679 --> 00:39:30,280
excuse me, eighteen sixty four, it's reaffirmed a Vatican one.

573
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:36,360
The same positions are condemned. And what does Dignatati Himani do. Oh,

574
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:43,559
it turns out fundamental to humanity is religious liberty, and

575
00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:47,800
we don't really teach that papal temporal supremacy anymore. You

576
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,239
understand that, how could it be necessary for my salvation

577
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,239
to believe in the temporal authority of the Roman bishop

578
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,400
when religious liberty is true? Now, don't you see that

579
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:05,400
those are incommensurable the right to religious liberty and freedom.

580
00:40:05,559 --> 00:40:09,760
The Protestant doctrines of religious liberty and freedom fundamental to

581
00:40:10,199 --> 00:40:37,440
human liberty, something previously condemned. Where is it condemned? People

582
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:43,320
in single called Marai Vos eighteen thirty two liberalism and

583
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:50,119
religious indifferentism aka freedom of religion condemned. It is a

584
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:57,000
heresy of the Enlightenment. Liberty of conscience, freedom of worship,

585
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:04,239
freedom of the press. H oh condemned heresies? Uh oh

586
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:19,559
oh oh? Were there there is? Mauri Vos condemned. Liberty

587
00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:23,119
of conscience, freedom of conscience, freedom of worshiped, freedom of press,

588
00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:31,719
free speech condemned. What does voon can do? Say no,

589
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:40,280
it's actually the fundamental element of human nature. Human dignity

590
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:47,280
is fundamentally religious freedom. Murori Vos Liberty of conscience, liberty

591
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:52,400
of worship, freedom of worship, indifferentism condemned.

592
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 6: Do you know why?

593
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:04,079
Speaker 1: Because the papacy had mold and cyclicals against freemasonry, wherein

594
00:42:04,199 --> 00:42:09,119
they charge liberty, equality and fraternity as free Masonic doctrines.

595
00:42:14,119 --> 00:42:22,199
Vatican two accepts the liberalism condemned and Maururi boss yet

596
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,079
another example.

597
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 6: I think that you must supplement it with much more.

598
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,320
Number one, look at how was the tone of Leo

599
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:42,280
accepted or received right and then supplement that with how.

600
00:42:42,199 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: Did let's talk? Godfight dollars? William Albert says Jay doesn't

601
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,159
love Christ. That's all they have is this piety signaling right,

602
00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:52,880
That's what they have. Sam said Jay is racist and

603
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:58,639
says the N word. What's he talking about? So that's

604
00:42:58,639 --> 00:43:01,360
all they have is like just personal at time. I mean,

605
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,400
I'm just going to their arguments, that's all they have.

606
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,760
Thomas mc el hern two Canadian. I'm Protestant, but your

607
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,199
knowledge and videos are great. Thanks man. Terry seventy seven.

608
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,840
Can you suggest top five to ten books on the Papacy?

609
00:43:16,679 --> 00:43:22,320
Edward Ginny Papalism, Abgat's The Papacy, Michael Welton's Two Paths

610
00:43:24,159 --> 00:43:27,199
Papadacus Mayandorf Christian East in the Rise of the Papacy.

611
00:43:29,639 --> 00:43:36,400
I would start there. Demon cooked two dollars. Imagine being

612
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,760
a cringey nerd crying about which church is the true church?

613
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,559
Escape the matrix and get some money. So I guess

614
00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:49,199
we have a Tate fan Tristan five dollars. Andrew said,

615
00:43:49,199 --> 00:43:55,960
hey will host the debate. I don't know. I mean

616
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,639
sounds like they just want to play them and say

617
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:03,480
that I'm racist, Like this is like the weakest shit imaginable. Like,

618
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:06,559
so I'm actually going to their streams to refute their positions,

619
00:44:06,559 --> 00:44:10,159
and they're calling you racist. There will be no debate.

620
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,480
Jay has made his point. Sam crashed out on his

621
00:44:13,519 --> 00:44:15,719
friend and then he blasphemed God and made fun of

622
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,639
the divine energies. I mean, it's just weird, dude. I

623
00:44:18,679 --> 00:44:22,880
don't know what the like, what the point of the

624
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:23,960
energies thing is here.

625
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,760
Speaker 3: We're gonna call you out. We're gonna get you. Don't

626
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,559
worry about it now, girl, get some more energies.

627
00:44:32,639 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 5: Maybe will help you.

628
00:44:37,639 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: Go get more energies. Maybe they'll help you out. I mean,

629
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,039
does he not realize it's the New Testament teaching?

630
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:42,559
Speaker 5: I don't know.

631
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 6: You himself. And then if he viewed himself in this manner,

632
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,239
where was the uproar on the side of those that

633
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,679
accepted his tomb And the other thing, as well, as

634
00:44:56,679 --> 00:44:58,960
we know very well, is that Pope Saint Leo the

635
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,559
greats Tone was essentially saying the same thing as Cyril

636
00:45:04,159 --> 00:45:06,880
was saying in as.

637
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: In his Yeah, but you're leaving out the point that

638
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,400
they investigated the tone to see if it was what

639
00:45:12,519 --> 00:45:15,559
measured up to Cyril's teaching, so they didn't mention.

640
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 6: It christological position. So then when we see that, we

641
00:45:19,519 --> 00:45:22,840
realized that Pope Saint Leo the Great was in line

642
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,159
with the great Christological teachings, and we realized how much

643
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,039
the teachings that Calca impacted. Because let me be very

644
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:35,280
clear with you, today you can listen to a Protestant

645
00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:39,599
individual talking about Christology.

646
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: Now let's point out the absurdity of William Albrecks, because

647
00:45:44,039 --> 00:45:47,239
I'm pretty sure William Albreck holds the position that, like

648
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:53,480
Voice of Reason says, Ephesus was wrong in condemning Nestorius.

649
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,760
Doesn't he say this? I think he does, right, But

650
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,079
let me show you how stupid this position is right here.

651
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:04,280
So I'll play your Voice of Reason saying this. And

652
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:05,840
I don't know where they get this, like maybe they

653
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,559
get it from Jimmy Aikin, because I know Akin says this.

654
00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:14,320
But I'm gonna show you how dumb this is. Right

655
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:15,679
here's a Voice of Reasons saying this.

656
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,199
Speaker 7: Documents set up being used are uh seruitous. So the

657
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,280
church isn't protected in matters of fact, The church is

658
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:28,239
only protected only infallible and matters of morals, in the

659
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,679
same way that when the Council of Emphasis condemned the

660
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,760
stories is irritated. We don't know looking back that the

661
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,320
council was actually in the correct It turns out that

662
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,519
the story is wasn't in a story, but the council

663
00:46:40,599 --> 00:46:44,639
is still condemned the us as an Astorian documents up

664
00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:45,320
being used.

665
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: So notice he's made up an absurd distinction between councils

666
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,239
getting the dogma's right and missing and airing in matters

667
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,480
of fact. Let's see how that actually works with the

668
00:46:56,519 --> 00:46:58,480
anathemas of ephesis.

669
00:46:59,079 --> 00:47:03,159
Speaker 7: So it isn't protected matters fact. The church is only

670
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:07,519
protected only infallible in morals in the same way that.

671
00:47:07,559 --> 00:47:10,559
Speaker 1: Is going to become. So does he think that the

672
00:47:10,679 --> 00:47:14,800
condemnation and the anathemas against Nestorias aren't faith in morals?

673
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,599
That sounds stupid. This position is right because when I

674
00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:20,960
go to the anathemas, the twelve anathemas right here, like,

675
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,360
does he think that this is not faith and morals

676
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,519
they're just airing in fact? Does he not realize that

677
00:47:25,559 --> 00:47:29,199
all the anathemas are about the dual subject position of Nestorius,

678
00:47:32,039 --> 00:47:35,800
and they're all from Cyril and his theology right, because Cyril,

679
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:41,679
for example, argues from the Eucharist against uh Nesaurius. So

680
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,440
that would mean all of these arguments weren't just matters

681
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,360
of fact that we're wrong, they were also theologically wrong

682
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:53,280
because Cyril didn't need to make Eucharistic arguments against Nastorias.

683
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,599
That's how stupid this is. Right when it talks about

684
00:47:56,639 --> 00:48:01,239
the life giving flesh. Right, if anyone does not confess

685
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,440
that the flesh of the Lord is life giving and

686
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,760
belongs to the Word of God the Father, that's talking

687
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,320
about the Eucharist, right. If you read Cyril the two

688
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,039
Letters to sicx senses, Cyril talks about the Eucharist giving

689
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:18,440
us and being a life giving thing, and he also

690
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:23,559
teaches the energies doctrine right explicitly, so he doesn't even

691
00:48:23,639 --> 00:48:32,440
understand that denying ephesis condemnation of Astorias doesn't just preserve

692
00:48:32,639 --> 00:48:37,679
the teaching of dogma and not fact in the council

693
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,840
some arbitrary thing he made up. It actually undoes the

694
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,840
entire argumentation of the anathemas because Cyril didn't then correctly

695
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,760
understand Nestorious position and all the anathemas. That's how stupid

696
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:54,320
this is. And by the way, I'm pretty sure Albrecht

697
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:59,119
holds that position that the Nestorians aren't really Nestorians all

698
00:48:59,119 --> 00:49:01,920
the way. I think Shamun does too, which is just idiotic.

699
00:49:02,519 --> 00:49:06,079
They don't even know what the anathemas are about. They're

700
00:49:06,159 --> 00:49:10,599
Cyril's theology against Nastorius's theology. So if it's wrong, then

701
00:49:10,639 --> 00:49:14,320
you deny Ephesus. And he just said Chalcedon lines up

702
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,480
with ephesis. Yeah, but you think emphasis made a mistake,

703
00:49:16,559 --> 00:49:20,199
dun't he look at the wide ranging.

704
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,559
Speaker 6: Effect it's had. But then look at the claims Pope

705
00:49:23,559 --> 00:49:25,920
Saint Lee of the Great and made for himself. Yeah,

706
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,840
he clearly viewed a lot of He viewed the power

707
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,400
of those keys is being given to the successor Saint.

708
00:49:32,159 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 4: Peter, and he thought that he exercised them in a

709
00:49:35,079 --> 00:49:38,920
unique way. Not that he wouldn't say that other bishops,

710
00:49:40,119 --> 00:49:42,639
you know, aren't successors to Saint Peter. He I think

711
00:49:42,639 --> 00:49:44,280
he would, But that.

712
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: Isn't They are accusing you of calling Sam a bald inward.

713
00:49:49,079 --> 00:49:53,119
I've never done that. William has a fake account calling

714
00:49:53,159 --> 00:50:02,840
you racial slurs. I mean, that's bizarre. Sue them. These

715
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,119
are just mentally ill people. Man, Me and Eugene five dollars.

716
00:50:06,119 --> 00:50:11,199
The Black delegation did not give Shamoun a pass as

717
00:50:11,199 --> 00:50:13,480
there's goes two dollars, you know, Father Damien Quilt, I

718
00:50:13,519 --> 00:50:20,199
do not everyone is going to the Lake of Lava.

719
00:50:20,519 --> 00:50:23,440
The moon landings are not are real or they are fake.

720
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,000
I do not like takes. This is a matrix attack.

721
00:50:27,079 --> 00:50:35,159
Oh that doesn't make any sense. So Samuel Joseph, imagine

722
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:40,480
if you had joined Sam's petty little stream and just

723
00:50:40,519 --> 00:50:43,719
said nothing and said, man, I'm sweepy. I gotta go

724
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:49,800
to sweet Sam and Willow are live right now. This

725
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,199
is a debate for the boys. I will moderate Josh

726
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,320
Jehoshah fat Z five dollars. I want to thank you

727
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,039
for your content. I going to Orthodox Church for the

728
00:50:58,079 --> 00:51:01,800
first time. I have yet to find anything false about Orthodox.

729
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:09,000
He started off as a dispensationalist. Now I'm here make

730
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:17,000
sure I'm hitting all the super juds.

731
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 4: Mean that he wouldn't claim a unique version of papal

732
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,480
succession for the Bishop of.

733
00:51:19,519 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 6: Rome, and I think, Michael, that point is the number

734
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,199
one the one we have to focus on, because what

735
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,639
I hear very often in popular apologetics is oh, well,

736
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,679
Peter is the only one that got the keys, so

737
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,159
of course the pope has a special role. Then they

738
00:51:35,159 --> 00:51:36,880
failed to realize.

739
00:51:41,599 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: So uh, I think if I if I hop on there,

740
00:51:56,119 --> 00:52:01,320
they're amazable immediately gonna lose it, right, So I don't

741
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:10,800
trust them to Like I'm thinking about it, I don't know.

742
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,639
I understand what you're saying about a fake, fake account

743
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,880
calling people the ND word that I don't. That doesn't

744
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:21,440
make any sense. What does that mean? He's fighting a

745
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,880
fake Jaydier account? Oh you mean they're like having a

746
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,480
fake debate. So it's for them, it's just like a

747
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:34,679
clown show. I don't understand. What's they're having a fake debate?

748
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,039
What are you talking about supporting Israel? Does he make

749
00:52:43,079 --> 00:52:48,599
any sense? I'm going to debate a post prophet? What

750
00:52:48,639 --> 00:52:49,239
does that mean?

751
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:56,079
Speaker 4: So?

752
00:52:56,639 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: Where is their stream? Let's see on on Skype? Let

753
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:33,800
me see if I can get on Skype. Let me

754
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:35,400
find the profile here.

755
00:53:35,480 --> 00:55:27,519
Speaker 8: Let's see just one second the five games.

756
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,119
Speaker 1: I'm calling it a skype.

757
00:56:56,559 --> 00:56:57,159
Speaker 6: No answer.

758
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: The easiest way to do this would be for them

759
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,199
to answer on the phone, and then we can have

760
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:19,760
this today that way. It's very simple. But I'm going

761
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:21,960
to stick to the doctrines. So I don't know why

762
00:57:22,039 --> 00:57:24,760
he I mean, they want they want me to hop on.

763
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:26,719
Let's do it. I'm not going to end my stream

764
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:31,360
to go to their stream. We can both have this

765
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:39,519
discussion right here. Oh wait a minute. It has to

766
00:57:39,519 --> 00:57:41,639
be on a neutral platform. I thought they told me

767
00:57:41,679 --> 00:57:46,199
to just come to their stream. I mean this is

768
00:57:46,199 --> 00:57:56,039
a neutral platform. Okay, so come to my stream. I

769
00:57:56,079 --> 00:57:58,559
call in to his stream on his sky But now

770
00:57:58,559 --> 00:58:09,119
it's now it has to be on a neutral platform.

771
00:58:09,239 --> 00:58:11,840
I'm gonna call one more time. Let's do it. I'm

772
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:15,239
calling in right now. Would be really easy. Let's do it.

773
00:58:32,519 --> 00:58:34,559
All he's got to do is have the discussion right now,

774
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:59,960
so you won't answer. I'm not gonna I'm not leaving

775
00:59:00,159 --> 00:59:02,920
my stream to go to his stream when we could

776
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,119
do it this way and it would be both of

777
00:59:05,199 --> 00:59:08,920
us having. He can continue streaming, I can continue streaming.

778
00:59:09,519 --> 00:59:13,639
I can't continue streaming if I go to his stream yard.

779
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:21,920
Or he can just send me a stream yardard link in.

780
00:59:23,119 --> 00:59:29,639
He can send me the stream yard link in Skype.

781
00:59:34,039 --> 00:59:39,800
Send me the link here here. I can continue streaming.

782
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:58,239
Send me the link here. See, like I told you,

783
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,559
the whole reason that he went on this collapse mode,

784
01:00:04,119 --> 01:00:08,039
it was because he doesn't want to actually have that debate.

785
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:13,360
He's always saying he wants to be teachable and corrected,

786
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,639
and so I the whole thing is because I invited

787
01:00:18,719 --> 01:00:22,559
him and his handler to come discuss on my channel

788
01:00:22,599 --> 01:00:30,679
with time responses, and the solution would be send me

789
01:00:30,719 --> 01:00:33,519
the link and we can stream it at the same time.

790
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:38,480
So all he's got to do is send me the

791
01:00:38,519 --> 01:00:40,440
Link'll y'all, let's do with this. I don't want to

792
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,920
stop streaming. I'm not that way. He can have his stream,

793
01:00:44,039 --> 01:00:45,840
I can have my stream, and we can both talk

794
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,760
on a device. You see. So you notice he won't

795
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,559
answer the phone. They told me to come to his stream.

796
01:00:52,639 --> 01:00:56,679
I'm doing it, and he won't answer the phone. He

797
01:00:56,719 --> 01:00:58,800
calls you a cult leader while he was looking at

798
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,559
memes about you. Yeah, he won't debate the issues. So

799
01:01:01,719 --> 01:01:04,719
look here you have it. Everybody can see Sam Shimun

800
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,400
doesn't want to actually debate the issues when that's what

801
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:12,440
I'm bringing up, and he would rather play mean games

802
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,719
and like make fun of people or whatever whatever with me.

803
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,320
So you can't defend these issues, like I'm sorry that

804
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,519
you had a meltdown over me just simply asking you

805
01:01:21,559 --> 01:01:32,159
to come and have a conversation about it. He says,

806
01:01:32,199 --> 01:01:34,760
you're an ortho slut and you want join I'm trying

807
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,199
to join his stream right here. I called three times,

808
01:01:38,599 --> 01:01:45,000
send me the link, and he's not answering because he

809
01:01:45,039 --> 01:01:51,039
knows he doesn't want to have this actual debate. If

810
01:01:51,039 --> 01:01:54,079
he wants to go on the Crucible, we can go

811
01:01:54,119 --> 01:02:12,400
have a debate on the Crucible right now. How's that

812
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:24,039
go to Crucible? Then it would be a neutral platform

813
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:26,880
if we both streamed it from our phone. So if

814
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:28,760
he wants to leave, he wants to boot me, he

815
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,079
can do that. I'm still streaming. I don't have to

816
01:02:32,119 --> 01:02:35,280
go to his stream. He doesn't have to go to mine.

817
01:02:35,679 --> 01:02:39,320
Very simple, simple solution, or we'll go to the Crucible.

818
01:02:42,079 --> 01:02:43,840
I guarantee you he doesn't want to debate me on

819
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,880
the Crucible right now. I guarantee you won't. He won't

820
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:53,760
do it. They said you called in on stream yard.

821
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,039
I didn't call on stream yard. I called right here.

822
01:02:58,639 --> 01:03:01,800
They said you were sending message. I'm not on stream yard.

823
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:06,360
They don't I don't have the stream yard link. There's

824
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:10,440
me calling him three times on Skype that Skype send

825
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:16,519
me the link here. I don't have the link inverted

826
01:03:16,519 --> 01:03:19,760
big toe Jay is one of percent Sigma Energy orb.

827
01:03:21,719 --> 01:03:23,679
They're acting like you went to the live chat and

828
01:03:23,719 --> 01:03:25,960
called him a bad word. That's not me, man, How

829
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,320
am I doing that when I'm on here? Is he

830
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:31,559
that stupid? He falls for any profile that has like

831
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:43,599
it's not me, dummy, I did en joined his live stream.

832
01:03:43,639 --> 01:03:45,960
Sam is saying that you posted in his back channel.

833
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,320
I don't have his back channel. I am on Skype.

834
01:03:48,599 --> 01:03:53,800
That's not me, dummies. Do you know what Skype sounds like?

835
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:08,519
And to mind two dollars, Protestants need to take a

836
01:04:08,519 --> 01:04:11,280
back seat. I'm watching a schism in real time. This

837
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,239
is not a schism because there's only one church and

838
01:04:14,519 --> 01:04:18,480
it's not the made up Apostolic churches that he has

839
01:04:18,519 --> 01:04:23,400
in his head. I don't like your Sam because you

840
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:30,079
bass Protestants. However, Sam is acting like an old cringe vagina.

841
01:04:30,639 --> 01:04:34,679
He said that he won't answer because you only want

842
01:04:34,679 --> 01:04:38,760
to talk. Now that William left his stream, tell him

843
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:40,920
and William to go onto the crucible. Let's do it

844
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:57,239
right now. Bring William to the crucible. Now, bring William

845
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:02,039
to the Crucible now, So every excuse he's making, I'm

846
01:05:02,039 --> 01:05:05,559
giving him a way out. He won't do it one

847
01:05:05,599 --> 01:05:10,000
to one on the freaking phone. He won't do it

848
01:05:10,039 --> 01:05:12,960
one to one on the phone on stream yard. He

849
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,039
won't do it one to one on the Crucible. Okay,

850
01:05:16,079 --> 01:05:18,079
bring William to the Crucible. I'll debate you both. I'm

851
01:05:18,119 --> 01:05:31,400
not at all worried about this issue. It's like Sam

852
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:33,960
has resorted now to only calling you slurs. Well that's

853
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,039
because he didn't want a debate to begin with. He

854
01:05:36,079 --> 01:05:39,880
never wanted a debate. He just wanted a spurgout because

855
01:05:40,519 --> 01:05:44,000
he can't actually defend these positions. So again, tell him

856
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:49,960
and all brect they can debate me, me versus them

857
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:59,480
two on the crucible. So all he has is nasty talk.

858
01:05:59,559 --> 01:06:01,920
There you go, oh, like, this is the guy that

859
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:06,559
you want to go with if you're a Roman Catholic

860
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:09,639
And this is the fruits of Rome. Man, this is

861
01:06:09,679 --> 01:06:12,280
what you guys get with Roman Catholicism. Is this stuff

862
01:06:24,119 --> 01:06:27,840
I want to remind you, this is he He thinks

863
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:30,880
the energies of God, the uncreated energies, are something that

864
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,840
you just joke about. He doesn't even know that they're

865
01:06:34,719 --> 01:06:36,119
the basis for the Theophanies.

866
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:40,639
Speaker 3: We're gonna call you out. We're gonna get you. Don't

867
01:06:40,639 --> 01:06:44,440
worry about it now, girl, get some more energies.

868
01:06:44,559 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 5: Maybe will help you you.

869
01:06:55,159 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 3: Like I said, thanks for the received queer bait.

870
01:06:57,039 --> 01:06:58,639
Speaker 5: I'm gonna show them who ran from William.

871
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:00,039
Speaker 6: Damn gar.

872
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm running from William. I'm literally telling them to

873
01:07:05,239 --> 01:07:15,000
go to the crucible right now. All right, let's get

874
01:07:15,039 --> 01:07:18,039
back to this. Since this is they're not gonna He's

875
01:07:18,079 --> 01:07:20,599
not gonna do it.

876
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 6: That the language lends itself to the fact that we

877
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:27,159
recognize that the keys were received by the other bishops

878
01:07:27,159 --> 01:07:30,159
as well by the other apostles, but Saint Peter, in

879
01:07:30,199 --> 01:07:33,320
a very special way received them. And how are they

880
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:35,679
able to utilize those as well when they are in

881
01:07:36,159 --> 01:07:40,920
union with the pope, with Saint Peter, the successor of

882
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,360
Saint Peter. I think that that's the one area where

883
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:44,239
they get tripped up.

884
01:07:44,719 --> 01:07:47,119
Speaker 4: I think so, And I'm glad you brought up this point,

885
01:07:47,119 --> 01:07:50,119
because it is true that the other apostles received the

886
01:07:50,119 --> 01:07:53,000
case of kingdom as well. Sometimes I think we overseail

887
01:07:53,039 --> 01:07:55,920
our position by saying that only Peter received.

888
01:07:56,039 --> 01:07:56,119
Speaker 3: No.

889
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:58,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, the rest of the apostles also received the case

890
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:00,880
of the kingdom. But that does mean that we can't

891
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:03,559
say that Peter received them in a unique way, no doubt,

892
01:08:03,719 --> 01:08:06,480
or that we could maybe speak about the apostles receiving

893
01:08:06,519 --> 01:08:07,880
the keys of the Kingdom through Peter.

894
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 1: They want to talk about the biblical case for the papacy.

895
01:08:15,559 --> 01:08:19,239
In the Bible, Jesus breathes on all the apostles. It

896
01:08:19,279 --> 01:08:22,319
doesn't come on Peter first and then to the apostles

897
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:29,279
at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit comes down on all of them.

898
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:31,399
It doesn't go to Peter and then Peter give the

899
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:34,279
Holy Spirit to the rest of the apostles at Pentecost.

900
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:36,600
I'll look at that he ran away, so he had

901
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:40,800
the opportunity to come on to the crucible. Rachel says,

902
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:44,359
for five dollars, the crucible is on standby, ready and waiting.

903
01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:49,920
If Sam accepts. I sent him multiple calls and multiple opportunities.

904
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:57,039
I called it. We could have had that. There's no

905
01:08:57,119 --> 01:09:00,760
reason not to have it multi streaming at the same time. Right,

906
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:08,239
All he has to do is hop on and he

907
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:10,279
thinks I'm over there like watching his stream, like, oh,

908
01:09:10,319 --> 01:09:12,600
I'm gonna wait until I'm gonna wait until William leaves,

909
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:15,800
and then I'll call him. Dude, you and William can

910
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:17,520
go on the Crucible and we'll do it right now.

911
01:09:20,239 --> 01:09:28,840
Sam just ran away. Well, what did you expect? All

912
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:31,279
he wanted to do was bitch and wine and lose it.

913
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:33,760
None of them want to talk about the actual issues.

914
01:09:34,039 --> 01:09:37,800
That's it. That's all they want to do as well.

915
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,359
Speaker 6: And I think that language there is probably the clearest

916
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,880
if we emphasize that. But the other thing that people

917
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,720
they get tripped up on Michael is the fact that they'll.

918
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:51,199
Speaker 1: Say, Okay, wait, he brought William back and into the stream.

919
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:55,199
I sat there calling him and asking him to do it.

920
01:09:55,279 --> 01:09:59,840
That's so ridiculous. I mean, do you have a bed time?

921
01:10:00,119 --> 01:10:00,199
Speaker 5: Like?

922
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,960
Speaker 1: Did you have a coof you? Like, I'm awake. Let's

923
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:06,439
go to the Crucible. I'll just fire up some more coffee,

924
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:07,800
let's debate all night, let's do it.

925
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:11,319
Speaker 6: Apostles receive the Well, then why do we need why

926
01:10:11,359 --> 01:10:13,079
do we need to Saint Peter? You need to see

927
01:10:13,119 --> 01:10:16,520
Peter because they were able to utilize them by being

928
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:19,319
in union with the head of.

929
01:10:19,199 --> 01:10:21,720
Speaker 1: The Why do we need a Saint Peter? Let's hear

930
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:25,279
this brilliant response again. Why do we need a Saint Peter?

931
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 6: Why do we need to Saint Peter. You need to

932
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:32,159
see Peter because they were able to utilize them by

933
01:10:32,199 --> 01:10:33,760
being in union with the head.

934
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 1: They were able to utilize them by being in union

935
01:10:37,039 --> 01:10:40,199
with the head. You need a Saint Peter because they

936
01:10:40,199 --> 01:10:42,399
were able to utilize them by being in union with

937
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:48,039
the head. So a pragmatic argument that doesn't tell me

938
01:10:48,079 --> 01:10:51,119
that Vatican One is in the text. It doesn't actually

939
01:10:51,119 --> 01:10:53,479
tell me in the text that Peter is the head.

940
01:10:54,279 --> 01:10:57,319
We in the Orthodox Church call him Corphaeus, the mouthpiece

941
01:10:57,359 --> 01:11:04,039
of the apostles, but the single unilateral head. Where was

942
01:11:04,079 --> 01:11:06,319
that in anything that we've seen so far. We've seen

943
01:11:06,359 --> 01:11:12,159
a reference to Leo, we've seen a admission that you

944
01:11:12,199 --> 01:11:17,720
can't just use catchphrases. I've not yet heard an actual

945
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,880
argument for the papacy yet. So let's see when we

946
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:26,199
get that Sam got jay diarrhea. Wendy Torretz. The Muslims

947
01:11:26,239 --> 01:11:30,079
are having a field day with Sam manifesting. I mean,

948
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:36,319
all of this is ridiculous because I sent him one

949
01:11:36,399 --> 01:11:39,600
message at the beginning of the day when he was

950
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:43,279
doing his stream asking him if him and William want

951
01:11:43,319 --> 01:11:46,159
to come and have a timed response on my channel,

952
01:11:47,079 --> 01:11:49,319
and he just lost it for he had a total

953
01:11:49,359 --> 01:11:55,600
meltdown over nothing and it's just crazy. And then he

954
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:58,359
goes into like mocking the divine energies. It's just crazy, man,

955
01:11:58,359 --> 01:12:02,399
it's weird. Jay, here's two dollars. You did it for

956
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:09,600
the chat. You're a g makeing sure I didn't miss

957
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:14,479
super chats. Let me let make it back anyway. So

958
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:16,560
we're having a fun like again, let's get back to this.

959
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:19,840
Because they're like, the way they're gonna do this, they're

960
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:21,920
gonna play this is that they're gonna make all this smoke.

961
01:12:22,279 --> 01:12:24,479
They're gonna make all this drama. They're gonna whine and bitch.

962
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:27,880
They're not gonna talk about the actual issues. And they're

963
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:29,720
not gonna they do. That's the last thing they wanted

964
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:31,680
to actually to be the issues, or else they would

965
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:33,560
just hop on the crucible. We can we can sell

966
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,399
it right now. We can hop on the crucible. We

967
01:12:36,399 --> 01:12:40,119
can pound it out through the entire night what the

968
01:12:40,199 --> 01:12:46,760
issues are. But I don't know, maybe leather Daddy here

969
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,760
has got to go pound it out some other way.

970
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:52,359
Speaker 6: I don't know of the apostles of the band of

971
01:12:52,399 --> 01:12:55,079
the Apostles, that being Saint Peter. I think they tend

972
01:12:55,079 --> 01:12:56,520
to forget that, and the fact.

973
01:12:56,319 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 9: That, well, you know, the officers bishop, well continue, We're

974
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:04,159
told directly next chapter one twenty when the office is

975
01:13:04,239 --> 01:13:06,600
desolate of the bishop, it uses the Greek.

976
01:13:06,359 --> 01:13:09,399
Speaker 6: Episcopos or episcopy. I forget the exact Greek word there,

977
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:15,840
that will be fulfilled. He'll be filled. Yeah, Thus bishops continue,

978
01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:18,800
and we realize that that's very clear.

979
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 1: For Sam says that you have a lisp. I'm pretty

980
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,760
sure his leather daddy buddy has them the lisp of

981
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,439
all lisps, and more of a lisp than James White.

982
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:31,079
I don't have a lisp, by the way, So, uh,

983
01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:35,479
Sam is copying my James White joke, which is funny.

984
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:37,680
Come up with your own jokes, dude.

985
01:13:38,359 --> 01:13:42,239
Speaker 6: Saint Peter, those that would follow him, and I've noticed

986
01:13:42,239 --> 01:13:45,760
a tend to really, whether it be Evangelical or Orthodox,

987
01:13:46,119 --> 01:13:47,319
tend and not understand.

988
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:51,039
Speaker 4: That, you know, for those that say, as you mentioned there,

989
01:13:51,159 --> 01:13:53,880
that okay, well, why do we need a Saint Peter,

990
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:58,520
why do we need a head it? My thing is

991
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:01,359
it's like saying why do you need a why do

992
01:14:01,359 --> 01:14:04,399
you need a head on the body?

993
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,720
Speaker 1: Again, In the Orthodox view, Christ is the head and

994
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,319
he directly governs the church through the power of the

995
01:14:11,319 --> 01:14:15,000
Holy Spirit. So we don't need an Old Testament high

996
01:14:15,079 --> 01:14:19,039
priest earthly head because the Old Testament high priest office

997
01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:22,279
in the New Testament is explicitly referenced and fulfilled in

998
01:14:22,319 --> 01:14:26,279
the person of Christ. So Christ is quite literally the

999
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:30,920
living head of the Church, and every bishop underneath Christ

1000
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:35,279
is another little head of the church, you see. But

1001
01:14:35,399 --> 01:14:39,359
it doesn't follow from this analogy of head to body

1002
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:43,640
that there has to be an Old Testament high priest head.

1003
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:47,079
You see, when the high priest, as everyone knows via

1004
01:14:47,199 --> 01:14:50,399
Hebrews Hebrew seven, is fulfilled in the person and the

1005
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:56,079
ascension of Christ. So the Roman Catholic position is actually

1006
01:14:56,199 --> 01:14:59,199
a lack of faith in the power of the Holy

1007
01:14:59,199 --> 01:15:02,039
Spirit to govern in the church. Now, an easy way

1008
01:15:02,039 --> 01:15:05,600
to refute this is it's Benedict the sixteenth that admitted

1009
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:10,399
that the Orthodox Church has maintained the faith for the

1010
01:15:10,439 --> 01:15:16,600
last thousand years. It's a famous Benedict quote. Well, then

1011
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:20,119
we don't need the papacy to maintain the faith, you see.

1012
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:25,680
So the Orthodox confession that the Holy Spirit is the

1013
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:29,520
governor and guiter of the Church. Thus we don't need

1014
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:34,880
the physical, literal, high, priestly judaic head of the church

1015
01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:39,239
is proven by the admission of Benedict that the Orthodox

1016
01:15:39,319 --> 01:15:42,239
Church has maintained the faith four thousand years about the pope.

1017
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:47,960
Speaker 4: Body can't exist without a hey, it cannot, yes.

1018
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:50,239
Speaker 1: But Christ is the head. So this false analogy does

1019
01:15:50,279 --> 01:15:54,119
not prove that the Bishop of Rome is the vicar

1020
01:15:54,199 --> 01:15:56,479
of Christ on earth, the earthly head. It's just that's

1021
01:15:56,520 --> 01:16:01,000
the thing in question, and it's not been proved so far.

1022
01:16:01,079 --> 01:16:04,319
They've only really made a pragmatic argument the pope will

1023
01:16:04,319 --> 01:16:07,159
provide unity and he can be ahead. But these are

1024
01:16:07,159 --> 01:16:08,319
not good arguments so far.

1025
01:16:08,359 --> 01:16:10,479
Speaker 4: It seems like there does have to be that center

1026
01:16:11,079 --> 01:16:14,279
of authority, the center of unity. Yet really even be

1027
01:16:14,279 --> 01:16:17,319
able to identify a particular communion, you have to have that.

1028
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:22,520
Speaker 1: So it seems that I don't know how if a

1029
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:26,279
center head of authority and unity is needed to recognize

1030
01:16:26,319 --> 01:16:29,560
the church or to recognize that unity. How did any

1031
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:32,520
Christians who converted in the first, second, and third century

1032
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:36,720
who didn't have access to Rome know the faith. Did

1033
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:39,119
they just go and say are you the church in

1034
01:16:39,159 --> 01:16:42,479
commune with Rome, then you must be the true church.

1035
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:47,279
What if they didn't know anything about Rome? Like, do

1036
01:16:47,359 --> 01:16:50,319
they actually think that all of the churches in the first, second,

1037
01:16:50,359 --> 01:16:55,199
third century were catechizing people like Vatican One? And if

1038
01:16:55,199 --> 01:16:58,520
they weren't, then they didn't need to know about the

1039
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:02,319
bishop bishopic of if they were converting in Jerusalem or

1040
01:17:02,319 --> 01:17:07,159
in Corinth or Ephesus or anywhere else. Do you see

1041
01:17:07,159 --> 01:17:11,520
the point when you read the early catechetical lectures or

1042
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,239
when you read say, John Damascus is on the Orthodox faith?

1043
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:18,479
Why does John Damascus, a doctor of the Catholic Church,

1044
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:22,039
write an entire systematic theology with no reference to the

1045
01:17:22,079 --> 01:17:27,439
papist Here, Peter, he didn't recognize the obvious number one

1046
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:30,760
rock center of the faith of the church when he

1047
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:35,319
wrote an entire systematic theology or did he just simply

1048
01:17:35,399 --> 01:17:38,000
not have in his mind the Vatican One mindset? Like

1049
01:17:38,039 --> 01:17:39,520
these people do could.

1050
01:17:39,319 --> 01:17:42,600
Speaker 4: Function without Ahead? Now, yeah, what people will say is, well,

1051
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:46,920
Jesus is the head. What do you say, respondse, yeah, so.

1052
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:51,760
Speaker 6: Without a doubt, we recognize Christ. It's ahead, We recognize

1053
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:53,079
Christ holds the key.

1054
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:56,760
Speaker 1: Nobody says, but yeah, the Holy Spirit doesn't really do

1055
01:17:56,920 --> 01:17:59,880
that good in governing the church. So we need the

1056
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:05,439
the Questak. We need the ruler of all rulers. We

1057
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:08,560
need the king of kings.

1058
01:18:08,399 --> 01:18:08,880
Speaker 6: The Pope.

1059
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:12,239
Speaker 1: You think when you're king of kings, you think it's Jesus. No, No,

1060
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:14,800
the Pope is the king of kings on earth. You see,

1061
01:18:15,119 --> 01:18:21,159
he has all temporal dominion and authority, and all kings

1062
01:18:22,279 --> 01:18:27,720
must submit and kiss his feet. The Pope alone, shall

1063
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:30,840
all the princes of the world kiss his feet? Is

1064
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:33,359
that what Jesus was setting up when he set up

1065
01:18:33,359 --> 01:18:36,279
a church, which, by the way, they reference Chalcidon. The

1066
01:18:36,359 --> 01:18:40,920
Canons of Chalcedon forbid any cleric from being a worldly

1067
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:47,560
magistrate or a civil leader. No member of the clergy

1068
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:52,279
can be a prince or a magistrate of the state

1069
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:56,760
because the separation of powers dictatus pape is a rejection

1070
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:12,239
of Chalcedon. Let's see Orthodox for nisis five dollars. It

1071
01:19:12,319 --> 01:19:14,880
is not freeful to speak with Sam. He was spitting,

1072
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:20,399
he was calling Orthodox dogs. He found old Theoria articles

1073
01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:24,720
against Orthodox ethos. So now he's mad at Father. Hears

1074
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:36,039
just losing it Sam Jordan and five dollars. Sam is

1075
01:19:36,119 --> 01:19:38,399
ending his stream. Now that the crucible people are offering

1076
01:19:38,399 --> 01:19:43,079
a platform that's neutral. Of course, Nicholas two dollars, I

1077
01:19:43,159 --> 01:19:45,960
just joined the stream. What's going on? I'm refuting the

1078
01:19:46,039 --> 01:19:52,520
Roman Catholic position of Sam and Albrick. Two dollars. Sam,

1079
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:58,039
he won't call you. You're desperate for reviews. Yeah, I'm desperate

1080
01:19:58,039 --> 01:20:02,640
for views and them on two dollars. Protestants need to

1081
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:06,199
take a back seat. I already read that. Let's see

1082
01:20:11,359 --> 01:20:13,680
Dre God the passport King ten dollars. This is a

1083
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:16,640
rare currence where Muslims and Protestants are not part of

1084
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:20,640
an insane clown show. Where's the cloud show? Other than

1085
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:24,000
like I'm actually I'm responding to the actual arguments Gray

1086
01:20:24,039 --> 01:20:27,359
stream Jay, this is dedicated to the papacy and it's

1087
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:29,560
long overdue. Well, I've actually done a whole bunch of

1088
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:37,720
papacy streams, oaklock something sks and d two dollars. Sam

1089
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:40,000
said nothing but foul discussing things about you and all

1090
01:20:40,039 --> 01:20:46,600
the Orthodox there you go, all because of one DM

1091
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:49,600
that I'm asking him to come and have a friendly exchange.

1092
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:52,800
That's it, that's it. That's what ignited all of this

1093
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:58,159
because I disagreed with his take on Protestant and Catholic

1094
01:20:58,439 --> 01:21:06,840
models of the Trinity ISA eighty seven two dollars. Sam

1095
01:21:06,880 --> 01:21:13,760
Chamun was indefensible tonight. What a shame. Yeah, retro reister

1096
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:16,439
gaming five a's Jay God bless you mate, love your

1097
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:25,960
channel shivalib get so and so on to debate with you.

1098
01:21:28,399 --> 01:21:30,960
I don't think he wants to debate with me. This

1099
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:32,880
is not Tolsch Schamun. It's about somebody else. I don't

1100
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:36,840
think that guy's interested. But maybe we'll see Brent. Five dollars.

1101
01:21:37,039 --> 01:21:40,880
If anyone is manifesting anything, it is Sam Shimun Roman Catholics.

1102
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:46,159
This is the fruit of your rotten church. This vindicates Orthodoxy. Unfortunately,

1103
01:21:46,279 --> 01:21:49,680
this is verty big too. Five dollars. Sam said that

1104
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:51,800
you are a pure scum, you are the son of Satan.

1105
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:53,119
Speaker 6: You are.

1106
01:21:54,800 --> 01:22:01,720
Speaker 1: Gay. I mean I'm married, he's not, so I don't

1107
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:07,880
That doesn't make any sense. BLK and Sam and William

1108
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:09,800
fell for a fake account and they thought it was

1109
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:12,880
really you. This is one of the stupidest, our funniest

1110
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:19,920
clips of the year, arguing.

1111
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:19,840
Speaker 5: That but.

1112
01:22:21,359 --> 01:22:25,560
Speaker 6: Peter, Saint Peter is the vicarious rock that has got

1113
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:30,319
to be recognized Number one that takes nothing away from Christ.

1114
01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:32,520
But the fact of the matter is, Michael, is that

1115
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:36,800
Christ set up a visible church with a visible hierarchy

1116
01:22:37,159 --> 01:22:39,119
and invisible head.

1117
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:41,760
Speaker 1: And yeah, but none of that, that's a non sequitor.

1118
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:46,159
So the thing in question is whether Peter is the

1119
01:22:46,199 --> 01:22:50,039
sole autocrat head of the church, and we haven't actually

1120
01:22:50,119 --> 01:22:54,760
heard a proof of that or a specific argument other

1121
01:22:54,920 --> 01:22:59,520
than practical appeals. Well, you need it for unity, but

1122
01:23:00,199 --> 01:23:03,039
where's the evidence of that biblically, where's the evidence of

1123
01:23:03,079 --> 01:23:06,399
that in the patristic sense, because we haven't had an

1124
01:23:06,399 --> 01:23:10,039
actual argument for that. All we've had is well, Leo

1125
01:23:10,159 --> 01:23:14,279
thought as Tom had authority, okay, but that's not ex cathedra,

1126
01:23:15,039 --> 01:23:17,279
and it was investigated to see if it was in

1127
01:23:17,279 --> 01:23:20,319
line with what Cyril taught. So we've not had much

1128
01:23:20,359 --> 01:23:21,319
substance yet.

1129
01:23:21,239 --> 01:23:24,720
Speaker 6: When you kind of use that as a you know,

1130
01:23:25,000 --> 01:23:27,159
fallback and say, well, you know, Price is a leader.

1131
01:23:28,319 --> 01:23:31,920
We agree that the church has always agreed. But how

1132
01:23:32,039 --> 01:23:35,319
is the visible hierarchy mentioned in scripture? And it's very

1133
01:23:35,319 --> 01:23:37,920
clear how it is mentioned. We hearken in the Matthew

1134
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:41,000
chapter sixteen all the time, but there are other pastes

1135
01:23:41,119 --> 01:23:43,840
Luke chapter twenty two, John.

1136
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:47,920
Speaker 1: Twenty Let's look at Luke twenty two. And let's see

1137
01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:51,640
if anywhere in Luke twenty two we find anything equivalent

1138
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:58,640
to Vatican one, because it ain't there. So remember this

1139
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:06,439
is proofs for the papacy from the premiere papists, leather

1140
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:29,600
Daddy Albrecht. Here, let's see where all Brett goes with.

1141
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:34,319
Speaker 10: Us one Judge twenty one. And the language is very

1142
01:24:34,319 --> 01:24:37,159
strong there. Saint Peter's were literally told in the Greek

1143
01:24:37,199 --> 01:24:40,119
that he said, shepherd in a very special role.

1144
01:24:40,159 --> 01:24:41,039
Speaker 6: What kind of shepherd?

1145
01:24:43,159 --> 01:24:49,239
Speaker 1: All the apostles are called shepherds? Where is the special role? Right?

1146
01:24:49,399 --> 01:24:55,800
That's attributed to Vatican one's level of this? All right,

1147
01:24:55,800 --> 01:25:04,640
so let's see what do you say, John twenty one.

1148
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:14,000
So we have the the denials of Peter, right, and

1149
01:25:14,039 --> 01:25:19,000
then Jesus is pointing out to Peter that even though

1150
01:25:19,079 --> 01:25:22,319
you denied me those three times, I am forgiving you,

1151
01:25:23,039 --> 01:25:25,960
and I am telling you and giving you this commission.

1152
01:25:27,680 --> 01:25:33,119
Feed my lands, feed my tend my sheep, feed my sheep.

1153
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:39,920
Where in any of that which is a restitution, a

1154
01:25:40,079 --> 01:25:44,199
kind of redemption for Peter's three denials? Where in any

1155
01:25:44,239 --> 01:25:48,800
of that is the Vatican one claim that the Bishop

1156
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:55,720
of Rome exercises universal, temporal and spiritual power autocratically over

1157
01:25:55,760 --> 01:26:03,880
the entire church. Where is that, Oh, because Jesus said,

1158
01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:07,159
ten my sheep. So you begin to see that the

1159
01:26:07,319 --> 01:26:13,800
entire presupposition of these people is to read into the

1160
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:18,600
texts these bizarre, outlandish interpretations that have nothing to do

1161
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:24,079
with what's in the text. That actually progresses too. Dictatus

1162
01:26:24,079 --> 01:26:27,079
Pope in ten ninety. You understand they have to defend

1163
01:26:27,079 --> 01:26:32,399
this because it's not just dictatas Pope. Unam simtem dogmatizes

1164
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:41,439
the same thing. A couple centuries later. The Roman Church

1165
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:45,399
is founded by God alone. The Roman pontiff alone is universal.

1166
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:50,439
He alone can depose and reinstate all bishops. Totally different ecclesiology.

1167
01:26:50,479 --> 01:26:58,000
The first thousand years UH number nine. The pope alone,

1168
01:26:58,039 --> 01:27:00,760
of all the princes in the world, shows his feet.

1169
01:27:02,199 --> 01:27:04,239
The Pope's name is the only name in the world.

1170
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:06,880
The papacy is the only name that can be spoken

1171
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:18,239
in the churches the Roman Church. The papacy is judged

1172
01:27:18,239 --> 01:27:25,279
by no one and may be judged by no one.

1173
01:27:26,439 --> 01:27:29,760
So in ten ninety Dictatus Pape of Gregory the seventh

1174
01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:34,399
becomes the seeds for developing into unam sanctam in thirteen

1175
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:36,680
oh two, which doesn't just say that you have to

1176
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:38,920
be in communion with the Bishop Rome to be saved.

1177
01:27:39,279 --> 01:27:42,000
It says you must also believe in the full temper

1178
01:27:42,319 --> 01:27:45,279
temporal power and supremacy the Roman bishop to be saved

1179
01:27:45,319 --> 01:27:49,239
as well. And as we saw the Roman calogy church

1180
01:27:49,279 --> 01:27:52,319
doesn't teach that. Now, this is what these people are

1181
01:27:52,319 --> 01:27:59,319
defending from Jesus telling Peter, feed my sheep. You can't

1182
01:27:59,359 --> 01:28:05,960
make this up. So Jesus saying feed my sheep literally

1183
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:09,079
is supposed to translate into a thousand years later. You

1184
01:28:09,159 --> 01:28:11,520
are the king of all the kings in the world.

1185
01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:20,880
You should have standing armies, as the Medici popes did.

1186
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:23,920
It's ludicrous.

1187
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:30,159
Speaker 6: Over the flock. Yeah, So my comment would be that

1188
01:28:30,479 --> 01:28:35,239
we have got that chep, we have that business as lead,

1189
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:38,960
and my hope would be that all of these other

1190
01:28:39,039 --> 01:28:41,000
churches have that as well. But in order to have

1191
01:28:41,039 --> 01:28:43,720
that they would have to become Catholic. Those people would

1192
01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:44,960
have to become Catholic.

1193
01:28:45,239 --> 01:28:48,199
Speaker 4: Some people would say, but okay, you know, I understand

1194
01:28:48,199 --> 01:28:52,840
what you're saying. But it seems like Vatican One and

1195
01:28:52,920 --> 01:28:59,039
its language and claims about the pope, it just seems anachronistic,

1196
01:28:59,119 --> 01:29:02,079
they would claim. They would say that, look, this speaks

1197
01:29:02,119 --> 01:29:05,520
about an authority to the papacy that just did not

1198
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:08,840
exist in the first millennium. What would you say to

1199
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:11,680
those who would claim that this kind of authority doesn't

1200
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:12,760
exist in the first millennium?

1201
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:16,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you mean the argument. You mean the argument

1202
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:21,520
that the papal document itself makes in eighty paragraph nineteen

1203
01:29:22,199 --> 01:29:24,760
appeals to the Bishop Rome from the East expressed the

1204
01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:26,520
community of the church, but the Bishop Rome did not

1205
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:29,279
exercise canonical authority of the Church of the East. You're

1206
01:29:29,319 --> 01:29:33,640
talking about your papacies argument that this wasn't the case

1207
01:29:33,680 --> 01:29:36,119
that it's admitted. Is that what you're talking about.

1208
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:39,920
Speaker 6: One, even though it's very early on, you clearly have

1209
01:29:40,079 --> 01:29:43,279
seeds of that in Pope Rome, without a doubt, where

1210
01:29:43,319 --> 01:29:46,520
he's what he's talking when he's talking to the flock,

1211
01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:50,119
he's doing it in the authoritative manner. He clearly views

1212
01:29:50,199 --> 01:29:52,760
himself as that head of the church.

1213
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:55,640
Speaker 1: But no Clement of Rome, by the way, is no

1214
01:29:55,720 --> 01:29:58,920
longer even used by Roman Catholic apologists. And if you

1215
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:02,680
read the the Sashensky book that just came out, there's

1216
01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:06,319
an entire chapter on Clement on this very point, and

1217
01:30:06,399 --> 01:30:08,960
even the Roman Catholic world has ceased from trying to

1218
01:30:09,079 --> 01:30:12,279
utilize Clement in that way. This is an older apologetic

1219
01:30:12,279 --> 01:30:14,960
approach that was popular maybe one hundred years ago, but

1220
01:30:15,079 --> 01:30:18,600
it's fallen out of use because it doesn't really prove

1221
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:21,479
what the Roman Catholics wanted to prove. Right, So, if

1222
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:24,199
Clement writes a letter and says to a church far

1223
01:30:24,239 --> 01:30:27,119
away that because he presides in love and he has

1224
01:30:27,119 --> 01:30:30,359
these recommendations, none of that has anything to do with

1225
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:34,239
just like John twenty one, with the claims of vatican Ie.

1226
01:30:35,079 --> 01:30:39,239
And so this is just like the classic low tier.

1227
01:30:39,399 --> 01:30:43,760
It's like Catherine answers level quote mining that even Roman

1228
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:47,880
Catholics don't use anymore. So again, Sashensky's chapter on Clement

1229
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:48,439
disproves this.

1230
01:30:49,479 --> 01:30:52,159
Speaker 6: We go beyond. It's very clear in the language of

1231
01:30:52,199 --> 01:30:54,600
seeing her in as that there is a certain model

1232
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:57,399
that is set up in a certain way. So if

1233
01:30:57,439 --> 01:31:00,439
we look in early church history and we look at

1234
01:31:00,439 --> 01:31:02,880
the claims of some of these popes, for instance, I

1235
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:06,680
brought up Pope Saint Pope Saint Leo the Great, and

1236
01:31:07,279 --> 01:31:12,079
we go onward. Even at classic example, read the language

1237
01:31:12,119 --> 01:31:14,279
of the second Council in Nicia.

1238
01:31:14,399 --> 01:31:18,520
Speaker 4: There's no way, very strong, right, and that's added agumenical council.

1239
01:31:18,520 --> 01:31:20,920
Speaker 6: That's this is very very strong.

1240
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:24,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it did they not realize that the Pentarchy

1241
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:28,920
had already been accepted at Nicia two, like prior even

1242
01:31:28,920 --> 01:31:31,560
prior to Nicia too, the Pentarchy had already been accepted.

1243
01:31:32,239 --> 01:31:35,359
And flowery language, as we saw in the debate between

1244
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:39,319
Ibara and Ubi, doesn't again doesn't get you anywhere because

1245
01:31:39,319 --> 01:31:42,600
the same flowery language is used of the emperor and

1246
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:48,439
the empress. For example, the emperor is called the he

1247
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:53,159
whom the gates of Hell cannot prevail against. Oh, so

1248
01:31:54,319 --> 01:31:57,079
does that mean that he's equivalent to Peter? So in

1249
01:31:57,159 --> 01:31:59,840
other words, it's a double standard. Right, The same argument

1250
01:31:59,840 --> 01:32:03,399
has brought forward when this was the point Luigi made

1251
01:32:04,399 --> 01:32:09,479
to Voice of Reason. Right, So it's a double standard.

1252
01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:11,720
So just because you see that flowery language like that,

1253
01:32:12,239 --> 01:32:14,600
they'll pick and choose and they'll say, well, when it's

1254
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:17,359
used of the emperor, it doesn't count. But when it's

1255
01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:19,640
used to the Bishop Rome, that's the only time it counts.

1256
01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:21,600
That's a double standard.

1257
01:32:22,359 --> 01:32:25,640
Speaker 6: Incredibly strong. So if we have that kind of language,

1258
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:28,880
this is fort millennium. Uh, this is the first millennium.

1259
01:32:29,119 --> 01:32:31,920
And if we have that kind of language there, the

1260
01:32:32,039 --> 01:32:35,399
Church is agreeing upon that kind of language, then there

1261
01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:37,239
is a foundation.

1262
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:42,840
Speaker 1: Now it's a non sequitor. So because the first the

1263
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:45,800
flowery language is there in some of these examples, which

1264
01:32:45,840 --> 01:32:50,039
is selectively chosen to ignore the flowery language that's said

1265
01:32:50,119 --> 01:32:52,560
identically of the emperor. By the way, I understand, I'm

1266
01:32:52,560 --> 01:32:56,520
not arguing that the emperor is the bastion of the

1267
01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:59,279
gates of Hell, right, I'm not arguing that the emperor

1268
01:33:00,199 --> 01:33:02,600
is what will keep the church from falling to the

1269
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:04,680
gates of Hell. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying

1270
01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:08,800
the same phraseology is used of the Emperor, and the

1271
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:12,720
Roman Catholics ignore it because it doesn't fit their model

1272
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:15,760
and their usage, because they would then have to admit

1273
01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:19,359
that there's flowery language that's used a lot in those centuries.

1274
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:22,119
Let me give you another example. If you read Basil's letters,

1275
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:27,600
when he talks about how Rome was useless in the

1276
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:31,439
Malitian Schism, when he refers to the Church of Antioch,

1277
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:35,680
Basil says, Antioch the head of the church, the head

1278
01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:39,760
from which the body desires and seeks its knowledge and

1279
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:43,880
it's whatever all this flowery language, nobody believes the Church

1280
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:47,279
of Antioch is the head of the Church. You have

1281
01:33:47,359 --> 01:33:49,760
the same language in Pope Saint Gregory the Great where

1282
01:33:49,760 --> 01:33:53,800
he calls the See of Peter Rome, Alexandria and Antioch

1283
01:33:54,039 --> 01:33:56,840
as late as Pope Saint Gregory the Great. So that

1284
01:33:56,880 --> 01:33:59,239
doesn't fit their model though, you see, because they have

1285
01:33:59,279 --> 01:34:02,560
a selective usage where they pull out the quote that

1286
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:07,479
fits the model, ignore the contrary evidence, not to mention

1287
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:12,000
the contradictions against the Vatican One idea of indefectibility, like

1288
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:16,479
popeias or a pope being deposed. They'll set that aside

1289
01:34:16,479 --> 01:34:21,600
for a minute. That's ignored because what's useful is the selective,

1290
01:34:22,000 --> 01:34:24,800
flowery language that fits the narrative of Vatican One being

1291
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:26,960
read retroactively into these passages.

1292
01:34:29,079 --> 01:34:34,239
Speaker 6: We love them and the orient Orthodoxy, and they're gonna say, hey, well,

1293
01:34:34,239 --> 01:34:36,359
we weren't there at and I see it too, so

1294
01:34:36,439 --> 01:34:39,199
what about us. So the way to answer that, in

1295
01:34:39,239 --> 01:34:43,960
my opinion, is to look at beforehand. Sure, and if

1296
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:45,920
you look at beforehand, if you look at in the

1297
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:49,199
Syriac fathers, they have strong language when they talk about

1298
01:34:49,239 --> 01:34:52,359
the papacy as well. And there's look, Michael, there's no

1299
01:34:52,439 --> 01:34:54,880
way around the language of the Bible. Yeah, it's very

1300
01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:57,319
clear the model that is laid out there, and that

1301
01:34:57,359 --> 01:35:00,439
model is at very clear of the papacy the way

1302
01:35:00,479 --> 01:35:01,840
the Captain Church points it up.

1303
01:35:02,000 --> 01:35:07,319
Speaker 1: Now, come on, So far we've heard Matthew sixteen, we've

1304
01:35:07,359 --> 01:35:11,199
heard Luke twenty one about the Luke twenty two about

1305
01:35:11,239 --> 01:35:17,560
the denials, and John twenty one about feed my flock.

1306
01:35:18,359 --> 01:35:23,720
That's all we've heard. And he just says the papacy's clear.

1307
01:35:24,439 --> 01:35:28,880
You haven't demonstrated anything from Vatican one in the Bible,

1308
01:35:29,319 --> 01:35:31,439
nor have you demonstrated anything for Vatican one in the

1309
01:35:31,479 --> 01:35:34,439
Patristic text yet. And by the way, you've not addressed

1310
01:35:34,479 --> 01:35:35,600
any of the objections either.

1311
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:38,640
Speaker 6: By the way, nobody I mean, I mean.

1312
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:43,600
Speaker 1: Like Honorius, Virgilius, et cetera, which are classic problem texts

1313
01:35:43,600 --> 01:36:00,279
for the papists. And let me remind you of Ybarra mmh.

1314
01:36:01,439 --> 01:36:14,039
Let me see it definitely, So try to pull up.

1315
01:36:15,720 --> 01:36:21,079
I'm not sure if I'm logged in, I could say

1316
01:36:21,479 --> 01:36:25,319
what the hell was that? IM trying to find my clip.

1317
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:31,439
Let's see if it's on X. See if we can

1318
01:36:31,479 --> 01:36:34,760
find it over here. You'll see why I'm pulling this up.

1319
01:37:20,239 --> 01:37:24,359
There's a clip I uploaded where Abara doesn't have an

1320
01:37:24,399 --> 01:37:30,359
answer and the freaking search on here is terrible.

1321
01:37:33,079 --> 01:37:45,439
Speaker 11: It's on my TikTok. Let me just play it this way.

1322
01:37:46,159 --> 01:37:50,399
Speaker 1: So we're gonna show from Ibarra, who's far better than

1323
01:37:50,399 --> 01:38:12,159
Albrecht at this point, how bad the augmentation is here. Okay,

1324
01:38:12,159 --> 01:38:13,840
here we go, who.

1325
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:17,239
Speaker 2: Never departed from the traditions of the fathers and directed

1326
01:38:17,279 --> 01:38:19,239
the Church of God in utter tranquility.

1327
01:38:20,319 --> 01:38:22,880
Speaker 1: Do you think that's correct? Not literally?

1328
01:38:23,199 --> 01:38:23,399
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1329
01:38:24,319 --> 01:38:26,159
Speaker 1: Oh so wait a minute. So we have a quote,

1330
01:38:26,199 --> 01:38:31,279
a patristic quote that this certain situation, I can't remember

1331
01:38:31,279 --> 01:38:33,920
if it's talking about the emperor or what, but it's

1332
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:37,279
saying that this bishopric or this in this situation, they

1333
01:38:37,760 --> 01:38:40,439
always kept to the faith and never departed. Right. So

1334
01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:44,079
this is the same language that's used in the ballet

1335
01:38:44,159 --> 01:38:44,720
or Bagatho.

1336
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:45,079
Speaker 6: Right.

1337
01:38:45,960 --> 01:38:48,560
Speaker 1: So I understand that Ubi's making the argument to a

1338
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:53,039
borrow that flowery language, even in your view, doesn't prove

1339
01:38:53,239 --> 01:38:57,479
the papacy, because you admit, when the flowery language of

1340
01:38:57,560 --> 01:38:59,800
never departing from the faith is used of the emperor

1341
01:38:59,880 --> 01:39:02,119
or of the other bishoprics, it doesn't count.

1342
01:39:02,439 --> 01:39:05,680
Speaker 2: You hear that who never departed from the traditions of

1343
01:39:05,720 --> 01:39:09,119
the fathers and directed the Church of God in ultra tranquility.

1344
01:39:10,279 --> 01:39:11,239
Do you think that's correct?

1345
01:39:12,239 --> 01:39:16,199
Speaker 1: Not literally? Oh, flower, language doesn't automatically prove it. Let's

1346
01:39:16,199 --> 01:39:20,920
see where this goes. It's not literally correct, but when

1347
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:26,199
the papacy works for the Roman Catholic it's literally correct.

1348
01:39:27,159 --> 01:39:29,560
Speaker 2: By the mid fifth century, how many popes have had

1349
01:39:29,800 --> 01:39:31,800
like heretical views.

1350
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:37,079
Speaker 12: Yeah, this is a hotly debated issue. So, I mean,

1351
01:39:37,119 --> 01:39:40,039
there's questions related to the pontificate of.

1352
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:41,279
Speaker 1: Liberius and Felix.

1353
01:39:43,119 --> 01:39:45,399
Speaker 12: But you know there's there's both sides.

1354
01:39:45,479 --> 01:39:50,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, Theodora. Oh so wait a minute, the papacy has

1355
01:39:50,439 --> 01:39:56,800
had heterodox people in its chair. What about that doctrine

1356
01:39:56,840 --> 01:40:01,359
called indefectibility. I'm pretty sure there was a promise of indefectibility.

1357
01:40:01,720 --> 01:40:06,000
That's part of the Vatican One mindset and ethos of

1358
01:40:06,039 --> 01:40:09,640
what the papacy is. Well, you understand the pope is

1359
01:40:09,760 --> 01:40:13,239
indefectible until he defects. That's literally the Romaicelli position. And

1360
01:40:13,279 --> 01:40:14,960
you just heard admit that.

1361
01:40:15,399 --> 01:40:19,720
Speaker 2: Mention this letter. Yes, for that Holy see speaking rom

1362
01:40:20,239 --> 01:40:23,640
has precedence over all churches in the world for many reasons,

1363
01:40:23,680 --> 01:40:26,119
and above all for this that is free from any

1364
01:40:26,159 --> 01:40:30,239
taint of heresy, and that no bishop of heterodox's opinion

1365
01:40:30,319 --> 01:40:33,800
has ever sat upon its throne, but has kept the

1366
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:37,600
grace of the apostles undefiled. Do you think he's correct?

1367
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:41,000
Speaker 1: I mean, so that's pretty strong, flowery language.

1368
01:40:41,399 --> 01:40:46,239
Speaker 12: Uh oh, unless he elsewhere condemns another pope.

1369
01:40:46,720 --> 01:40:48,880
Speaker 2: So, as you mentioned, maybe he didn't know. I mean,

1370
01:40:48,880 --> 01:40:50,720
he's out in the sounds like he's out in the

1371
01:40:50,720 --> 01:40:55,960
boondocks when he riots, I can the constitutions of the

1372
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:56,920
church be destroyed?

1373
01:40:58,640 --> 01:41:01,479
Speaker 12: Constitution, the police, You're just done through the churches, right?

1374
01:41:01,479 --> 01:41:03,079
Speaker 2: And these guys are talking about when the Holy spirits

1375
01:41:03,119 --> 01:41:06,119
down through the church is always, always, always, so I mean, okay,

1376
01:41:06,159 --> 01:41:09,199
so in one case remaining, oh thank you. So in

1377
01:41:09,239 --> 01:41:13,159
this case, I mean, when taking too account that there

1378
01:41:13,199 --> 01:41:16,159
had been heretical popes, I mean, I don't see how

1379
01:41:16,199 --> 01:41:18,840
you can maintain that the always there should be the exception.

1380
01:41:19,039 --> 01:41:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know. So oh, always the papacy was

1381
01:41:24,039 --> 01:41:26,119
always the rock and never taught error.

1382
01:41:26,720 --> 01:41:28,399
Speaker 2: Right, right, And these guys are talking about, with the

1383
01:41:28,399 --> 01:41:30,600
Holy spirits down through the church is always, always, always.

1384
01:41:31,039 --> 01:41:33,920
So I mean, okay, so in one case remaining, oh

1385
01:41:33,960 --> 01:41:38,279
thank you. So in this case, I mean, when taking

1386
01:41:38,319 --> 01:41:40,479
too account that there had been heretical popes, I mean,

1387
01:41:41,239 --> 01:41:43,439
I don't see how you can maintain that they always

1388
01:41:43,439 --> 01:41:44,680
there should be the exception.

1389
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:45,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know.

1390
01:41:45,520 --> 01:41:49,239
Speaker 12: I mean, look, I believe Honorius was a condemned heretic.

1391
01:41:49,520 --> 01:41:57,520
Speaker 1: Oh so the papacy isn't indefectible. It's indefectible until it defects.

1392
01:41:57,600 --> 01:42:00,239
So you understand that the bar right there denied the

1393
01:42:00,239 --> 01:42:02,880
indefectibility of the Roman See do you.

1394
01:42:02,920 --> 01:42:06,640
Speaker 2: Think in the case of Saint Silverius, he was deposed

1395
01:42:06,680 --> 01:42:09,960
by bel Sorrus, He's sent to Justinian, finds out says

1396
01:42:10,319 --> 01:42:12,680
you have to give a guy trial. He's handed over

1397
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:18,159
to Virgilius. Virgilious he was a horrible person. I don't

1398
01:42:18,159 --> 01:42:20,439
know when sounds of it, He's horrible. I mean, how

1399
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:22,560
does that work out? If Virgilius is the pope, but

1400
01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:24,880
he's judging a former pope. That means that the deposition

1401
01:42:24,920 --> 01:42:28,159
of the former pope had to be valid if Virgilius

1402
01:42:28,199 --> 01:42:31,600
is a pope. If if the deposition is not invalid

1403
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:34,119
and Virgilius is judging him, then you still have the

1404
01:42:34,119 --> 01:42:36,359
situation of a pope being judged by non pope.

1405
01:42:36,920 --> 01:42:39,279
Speaker 12: I'll be candid with you, this is something that I

1406
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:42,600
have not really had a satisfactory answer to.

1407
01:42:43,359 --> 01:42:47,039
Speaker 1: Oh so when we have the real hardcore problems the

1408
01:42:47,079 --> 01:42:50,840
top apologist, I don't know, man, I don't have the answer.

1409
01:42:50,960 --> 01:42:54,640
So there's Abara, who's way more advanced than this goofball

1410
01:42:55,319 --> 01:42:56,359
doesn't know the answer.

1411
01:42:57,239 --> 01:43:01,600
Speaker 6: That the way the papacy looks at the time, they're

1412
01:43:01,640 --> 01:43:04,399
not saying, well, the papacy has to look like this. Yeah,

1413
01:43:04,439 --> 01:43:07,279
in the one hundreds, the church has been persecuted. You know,

1414
01:43:07,640 --> 01:43:09,960
the church has developed, doctrine has developed.

1415
01:43:10,000 --> 01:43:12,680
Speaker 1: There's no argument about Oh so wait a minute, now,

1416
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:19,680
remember Vatican One Pastor attornis uh uh satist cognitium. They

1417
01:43:19,760 --> 01:43:24,439
actually argue that the prerogatives and the powers of the

1418
01:43:24,520 --> 01:43:28,199
Roman bishop were always there and always known and recognized

1419
01:43:28,279 --> 01:43:32,840
by the rest of the church from the earliest days. Well,

1420
01:43:32,840 --> 01:43:35,600
but it is persecuted, so it's not really there. You

1421
01:43:35,600 --> 01:43:37,520
don't really see it. They're not able to do it,

1422
01:43:39,039 --> 01:43:42,159
and it develops. So wait a minute, is it always

1423
01:43:42,199 --> 01:43:46,319
there and clear from the earliest days? According to the

1424
01:43:46,439 --> 01:43:49,720
Vatican one and Lee the thirteenth people teaching or was

1425
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:53,359
it not clear? And it developed over time into unum

1426
01:43:53,399 --> 01:43:57,239
sanctum and the pope is the king of kings and

1427
01:43:57,319 --> 01:44:01,439
has a bank run by the roth Charles the Battican Bank.

1428
01:44:01,760 --> 01:44:03,880
Which one is it? Is it a development or was

1429
01:44:03,920 --> 01:44:06,920
it always there? Those are mutual exclusive claims.

1430
01:44:06,920 --> 01:44:11,560
Speaker 6: You see doctrine developing. It is not the same thing

1431
01:44:11,680 --> 01:44:14,960
as saying that doctrine has been created and there is

1432
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:17,159
no example of this his Oh really?

1433
01:44:17,279 --> 01:44:17,600
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1434
01:44:17,720 --> 01:44:21,920
Speaker 1: What about the idea that the Roman bishop has full

1435
01:44:22,159 --> 01:44:25,600
temporal authority over all kings and it is himself a

1436
01:44:25,720 --> 01:44:29,319
king of kings. And if you don't believe that, your

1437
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:33,680
dannd where in the first thousand years is there a

1438
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:37,439
doctrine of that? You must believe in the temporal supremacy

1439
01:44:37,439 --> 01:44:39,760
of the Roman Bishop to be saved. Oh, it doesn't exist.

1440
01:44:40,359 --> 01:44:41,800
That refused the very thing he just said.

1441
01:44:43,880 --> 01:44:47,039
Speaker 4: You know, the unfolding of the doctrine in industry is

1442
01:44:47,039 --> 01:44:49,840
another thing too. So it's a good point. You bring

1443
01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:52,239
up the wordy in orthodox A. Yeah, well they do

1444
01:44:52,319 --> 01:44:56,439
accept ephesisure. What's interesting there is you have at emphasis

1445
01:44:56,880 --> 01:45:00,279
Phillip the leg at the representative of the Pope making

1446
01:45:00,279 --> 01:45:03,159
some pretty serious claims in front of the Council fathers

1447
01:45:03,520 --> 01:45:06,279
about the Bishop of Rome. That is really the seeds

1448
01:45:06,279 --> 01:45:09,000
of Vatican Willing in my estimation, Yeah, no doubt he

1449
01:45:09,159 --> 01:45:10,239
makes them openly.

1450
01:45:10,479 --> 01:45:13,680
Speaker 1: Oh so wait a minute, remember Vatican I and post

1451
01:45:13,720 --> 01:45:17,039
returners in Scatheast Cognito teach that the powers and prerogatives

1452
01:45:17,039 --> 01:45:19,279
of the Roman bishop were always there from the earliest days,

1453
01:45:19,319 --> 01:45:22,880
recognized by all. But now we have at ephesis the

1454
01:45:23,000 --> 01:45:26,720
seeds of the papacy. So understand that when you admit

1455
01:45:26,960 --> 01:45:32,880
that these doctrines and these ecclesiology type structures evolve, you're

1456
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:38,760
admitting the evolution of doctrine, which allows for a position

1457
01:45:39,039 --> 01:45:45,359
of in nineteen twenty eight condemning interfaith gatherings to nineteen

1458
01:45:45,399 --> 01:45:47,960
sixty eight, sixty nine, seventy. Now it's the work of

1459
01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:51,119
the Holy Spirit. If doctrine evolves, the Holy Spirit can

1460
01:45:51,159 --> 01:45:54,439
contradict himself followers accepted.

1461
01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:58,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, there's no doubt about that. So you bring

1462
01:45:58,359 --> 01:46:01,479
up a very good example there, because the church is

1463
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:05,560
not broken off at that time in emphasis. So to me,

1464
01:46:06,520 --> 01:46:09,800
the best that they can do is try to claim

1465
01:46:09,840 --> 01:46:11,840
that maybe later on that that wasn't accepted. It was

1466
01:46:11,880 --> 01:46:14,680
accepted there though there was no doubt about it. There

1467
01:46:14,720 --> 01:46:17,000
is no doubt that it was accepted there.

1468
01:46:17,079 --> 01:46:21,520
Speaker 1: So what do we But again, the flowery language or

1469
01:46:21,560 --> 01:46:25,079
the strong language of legates at Ephesus, this comes up

1470
01:46:25,279 --> 01:46:30,119
in the I think it was the Yeah, let's remind

1471
01:46:30,159 --> 01:46:35,640
everybody of this classic. Right, So the the translator of

1472
01:46:35,720 --> 01:46:40,560
these texts, right, they had him on reason and theology,

1473
01:46:41,760 --> 01:46:47,000
Father Price, right, So let's remind these two people in

1474
01:46:47,079 --> 01:46:50,119
terms of the source that they're going to Richard Price.

1475
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:56,920
What does Richard Price say about this argument of Chalcedon

1476
01:46:57,199 --> 01:46:59,800
and Ephesus. Let's see what he says, because he doesn't

1477
01:46:59,800 --> 01:47:02,520
say what they say, but he's who they rely on.

1478
01:47:02,760 --> 01:47:03,079
What's this?

1479
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:13,880
Speaker 4: Why did the bishops in Calcidon feel they needed to

1480
01:47:14,000 --> 01:47:17,560
judge THEODOREA if Leo had already reinstated him.

1481
01:47:18,159 --> 01:47:28,800
Speaker 13: Oh, well they didn't. They didn't recognize Roman jurisdiction in

1482
01:47:28,840 --> 01:47:30,239
the eastern provinces.

1483
01:47:30,239 --> 01:47:31,159
Speaker 1: Whoa you?

1484
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:36,920
Speaker 13: So there's reinstating for them was not decisive. The decision

1485
01:47:37,039 --> 01:47:51,119
has to be made in the east. The the Odora's

1486
01:47:51,119 --> 01:47:55,119
position at the council is an interesting one. Uh when

1487
01:47:55,319 --> 01:47:56,880
the uh.

1488
01:47:57,399 --> 01:47:59,960
Speaker 1: So you see why this was not what they wanted

1489
01:48:00,079 --> 01:48:04,079
on this stream. They invited Richard Price On who translated

1490
01:48:04,239 --> 01:48:08,439
the Ecumenical Council acts in the sessions and all that, right,

1491
01:48:09,439 --> 01:48:12,760
and they got a question that didn't fit their made

1492
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:17,800
up narrative. Right. And Richard Price is admitting, because he's

1493
01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:21,199
enough of a scholar and he's honest with the texts,

1494
01:48:21,319 --> 01:48:25,880
that the East didn't care about Roman authority and the

1495
01:48:25,920 --> 01:48:29,319
Roman bishop in some sort of unilateral way. It's the

1496
01:48:29,359 --> 01:48:33,119
exact same thing that Rome's eighty document says right here

1497
01:48:33,119 --> 01:48:36,439
in paragraph nineteen. The Bishop of Rome did not exercise

1498
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:39,199
canonical authority over the churches of the East. Let's hear

1499
01:48:39,239 --> 01:48:43,039
Father Richard Price again, the very guy that these guys

1500
01:48:43,119 --> 01:48:43,760
rely upon.

1501
01:48:44,279 --> 01:48:48,039
Speaker 4: You understand, the bishops and calcid On feel they needed

1502
01:48:48,039 --> 01:48:55,279
to judge Theodora if Leo had already reinstated him.

1503
01:48:55,520 --> 01:49:03,039
Speaker 13: Well they didn't, for they didn't recognize Roman jurisdiction in

1504
01:49:03,079 --> 01:49:04,560
the Eastern provinces.

1505
01:49:05,000 --> 01:49:08,439
Speaker 1: Oh oops, doesn't fit the narrative. Just ignore it.

1506
01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:11,720
Speaker 6: Talk about the orient Orthodox. That to me is a

1507
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:16,960
problem for them because they reject the papacy. But it

1508
01:49:17,039 --> 01:49:20,680
becomes an even greater problem for the Eastern Orthodox because

1509
01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:23,680
we have so many examples, especially at the Second Council

1510
01:49:23,720 --> 01:49:27,079
of Nicea, and this is what I would.

1511
01:49:26,840 --> 01:49:30,000
Speaker 1: Ask Before he goes into this, I should point out

1512
01:49:30,039 --> 01:49:34,119
that from the Orthodox perspective, the power and prerogatives of

1513
01:49:34,159 --> 01:49:39,800
the Roman bishop are something that unfortunately evolved. So I'm

1514
01:49:39,800 --> 01:49:44,760
not saying that actual theology develops. I'm saying that the

1515
01:49:44,800 --> 01:49:48,079
power and prerogatives of the Roman bishop developed over time,

1516
01:49:48,199 --> 01:49:51,520
and you do get stronger and stronger statements about the

1517
01:49:51,560 --> 01:49:54,479
power and prerogatives of the Roman bishop. So even by

1518
01:49:54,520 --> 01:49:57,079
the time of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, when they had

1519
01:49:57,079 --> 01:49:59,960
already accepted pentarchy, you tell that to a Roman calogy,

1520
01:50:00,039 --> 01:50:01,680
they think that you're making that up. They don't even

1521
01:50:01,720 --> 01:50:06,880
realize that their own popes accepted the pentarchical structure by

1522
01:50:06,920 --> 01:50:10,840
the time of the sixth and seventh Council. They're assuming

1523
01:50:10,960 --> 01:50:15,439
that the statement from the Bishop of Rome necessarily makes it.

1524
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:15,600
Speaker 3: So.

1525
01:50:16,039 --> 01:50:19,479
Speaker 1: Well, that would only be true if the Roman Catholic

1526
01:50:19,960 --> 01:50:22,720
Vatican One position was true, which is the thing in question.

1527
01:50:22,840 --> 01:50:26,600
So you notice, because these people are evidentialists and they're

1528
01:50:26,760 --> 01:50:30,119
very sort of low tier, not very sophisticated when it

1529
01:50:30,119 --> 01:50:33,760
comes to epistemology. They just assume that you just quote

1530
01:50:33,800 --> 01:50:36,239
mine and pick out the evidences, and if you stack

1531
01:50:36,359 --> 01:50:40,600
up enough evidences, then it ninety two percent proves maybe

1532
01:50:40,640 --> 01:50:45,960
the papacy in its seed form. But that's misunderstanding the

1533
01:50:46,239 --> 01:50:50,439
paradigm question here. From the Orthodox paradigm, just because the

1534
01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:53,640
Roman bishop starts accruing to himself more and more power,

1535
01:50:54,319 --> 01:50:56,680
which you clearly see in when I'm signed them and

1536
01:50:57,159 --> 01:51:01,760
Dictatus Pope, it doesn't mean that it's good or necessarily so.

1537
01:51:02,840 --> 01:51:06,000
From the Orthodox perspective, the Bishop of Rome is like

1538
01:51:06,039 --> 01:51:08,920
any other bishop. He can be a heretic. You've heard

1539
01:51:08,960 --> 01:51:13,199
Ibara admit that there were heretic popes. There's no special

1540
01:51:13,279 --> 01:51:19,479
prerogative that makes that guy immune to these problems. So

1541
01:51:19,600 --> 01:51:23,199
the fact that a pope, as we get into the seventh, eighth,

1542
01:51:23,199 --> 01:51:27,920
and ninth century, makes more outlandish claims, makes more outlandish

1543
01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:32,399
temporal power claims, doesn't prove anything other than that you're

1544
01:51:32,399 --> 01:51:37,840
just presupposing the papal position. But they don't actually think

1545
01:51:37,880 --> 01:51:40,880
that way, right. They think that if the pope has

1546
01:51:41,000 --> 01:51:45,159
more and more outlandish claims, that proves the papacy. Well,

1547
01:51:45,239 --> 01:51:48,000
only if the papacy in the Vatican One position is true.

1548
01:51:48,159 --> 01:51:50,680
Is that the case, But that's the thing in question.

1549
01:51:51,880 --> 01:51:55,800
Speaker 6: Which church most resembles that church of the second Coast

1550
01:51:55,840 --> 01:51:57,399
of nice in language?

1551
01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:00,640
Speaker 1: And oh, really, you're sure you want to go that route?

1552
01:52:00,680 --> 01:52:04,720
Because the Second Council of Nicea is about icons, and

1553
01:52:04,960 --> 01:52:09,640
the iconographic theology of that council lays down patterns and

1554
01:52:09,720 --> 01:52:14,720
structures that are not allowable outside of the canons of

1555
01:52:14,720 --> 01:52:18,359
what's appropriate for worship. In fact, there's a council that

1556
01:52:18,520 --> 01:52:23,000
reaffirms Nicea two in eight forty three. It's called the

1557
01:52:23,039 --> 01:52:26,880
Triumph of Orthodoxy in the East because it's the final

1558
01:52:26,960 --> 01:52:31,119
victory of Nicea two over the Iconoclasts, and that produces

1559
01:52:31,159 --> 01:52:35,600
a gigantic document called the Sonoticon, which condemns all kinds

1560
01:52:35,640 --> 01:52:42,199
of things, including the outlandish violations of worship and errors

1561
01:52:42,279 --> 01:52:46,319
in the Roman Catholic system. Eventually, this develops in a

1562
01:52:46,439 --> 01:52:49,000
lower D sense of developed. I don't mean that the

1563
01:52:49,039 --> 01:52:51,680
doctrine change, but I'm saying that canon law is the

1564
01:52:51,680 --> 01:52:56,039
application of the principles at different times and in different ways.

1565
01:52:56,279 --> 01:52:59,319
For us, canon law can be flexible. It has to

1566
01:52:59,359 --> 01:53:02,880
be can't be immutable. There has to be changes and

1567
01:53:03,239 --> 01:53:08,399
applications of canon law because cities go away. Times change.

1568
01:53:08,399 --> 01:53:11,920
For example, you have canons that say that clergy can't

1569
01:53:12,000 --> 01:53:17,680
ride on a horse, right, eventually clergy can ride horses

1570
01:53:17,720 --> 01:53:20,319
because we don't have nobility anymore. So horse riding was

1571
01:53:20,359 --> 01:53:23,239
something for the nobility, and priests weren't supposed to be

1572
01:53:23,319 --> 01:53:26,359
engaging in the actions of a civil servant and the nobility.

1573
01:53:26,760 --> 01:53:29,960
So that's why that canon was there. So canons are

1574
01:53:30,000 --> 01:53:33,920
a tricky thing because they're not necessarily infallible or immutable

1575
01:53:34,039 --> 01:53:38,279
or eternal. Their applications of the principles of divine revelation

1576
01:53:38,399 --> 01:53:40,680
to the time and to the place. And I don't

1577
01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:43,159
think anybody believes that unless they're sort of crazy, that

1578
01:53:43,600 --> 01:53:46,119
all the canons are infallible and eternal. It's just not

1579
01:53:46,199 --> 01:53:51,560
even a possible position. And that's different from the Creeds

1580
01:53:51,640 --> 01:53:55,119
or the confessions or the dogmatic statements of an ecumenical council.

1581
01:53:57,319 --> 01:54:01,359
And I would argue the anathemas are also. You can't

1582
01:54:01,399 --> 01:54:04,279
deny the anathemos like voice of reason. And these guys

1583
01:54:04,319 --> 01:54:09,560
do to try to make Mystorius into something acceptable in

1584
01:54:09,560 --> 01:54:11,520
the Roman Calolic Church, but they actually do, they actually

1585
01:54:11,520 --> 01:54:15,319
accept Nestorius in the Romancolic Church. It's crazy. But again

1586
01:54:15,479 --> 01:54:17,960
you notice that it's all premised on the idea that

1587
01:54:19,159 --> 01:54:23,039
the system can evolve, and what we have today in

1588
01:54:23,079 --> 01:54:27,640
the modern Roman system is somehow identical to the seed

1589
01:54:27,720 --> 01:54:30,520
forms of the Church in the first thousand years, when

1590
01:54:30,720 --> 01:54:41,800
every ecumenical council has canons that refute the Vatican one mindset.

1591
01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:44,239
Now wait a minute, Jay, I thought you said that

1592
01:54:45,880 --> 01:54:49,359
the canons are flexible. That's correct. The argument is not

1593
01:54:49,479 --> 01:54:54,880
that ecumenical canons are infallible and thus refute the premiacy

1594
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:58,479
of the Roman bishop. The point is that in every

1595
01:54:58,479 --> 01:55:03,039
ecumenical council there are canons past that show that the

1596
01:55:03,079 --> 01:55:06,520
council didn't have the mindset of Vatican one, because it

1597
01:55:06,600 --> 01:55:09,960
contradicts the mindset of Vatican one in every acumenical council.

1598
01:55:10,199 --> 01:55:12,520
But you notice the Roman Catholics have left out all

1599
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:16,960
of that evidence, and they've selectively chosen the things, and

1600
01:55:17,000 --> 01:55:19,479
in this talk they haven't even done any that. They've

1601
01:55:19,520 --> 01:55:23,239
done little to no argumentation. They've cited three Bible verses

1602
01:55:23,800 --> 01:55:31,119
and two councils and they haven't addressed any objections. And

1603
01:55:31,159 --> 01:55:35,800
I'll give you right here this essay that I did

1604
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:38,600
or excuse me that Seraphim, who's now a deacon. It

1605
01:55:38,720 --> 01:55:41,000
might be a priest by now, but this was a

1606
01:55:41,039 --> 01:55:44,800
buddy of ours from the discord, who is now a clergy.

1607
01:55:44,920 --> 01:55:48,720
By the way, from twenty eighteen. I think he wrote

1608
01:55:48,760 --> 01:55:55,239
this in twenty eighteen. I posted in twenty twenty, So

1609
01:55:55,359 --> 01:55:57,680
my computers might be freezing here.

1610
01:56:04,960 --> 01:56:06,560
Speaker 6: It would be without a doubt.

1611
01:56:12,039 --> 01:56:18,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, you and I see it too, also argue no

1612
01:56:18,119 --> 01:56:21,600
doubt I would even know Vigilious and the way he

1613
01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:23,560
views himself with the Fifth Council.

1614
01:56:24,520 --> 01:56:29,560
Speaker 1: You just heard Ubi stomp Ibarra on Virgilia. So here's

1615
01:56:30,159 --> 01:56:38,000
Loten appealing to Virgilius. And what did They're better? And

1616
01:56:38,039 --> 01:56:40,600
Ibarra is way more advanced than either of these goofballs.

1617
01:56:40,640 --> 01:56:43,640
What did he Borro say about Virgilius never departed from

1618
01:56:43,680 --> 01:56:46,720
the traditions of the fathers and directed the Church of God?

1619
01:56:46,760 --> 01:56:51,199
Speaker 2: And do you think in the case of Saint Silverius,

1620
01:56:51,760 --> 01:56:54,840
he was deposed by Bill Sorrius, he's sent to Justinian,

1621
01:56:54,880 --> 01:56:57,800
finds out says you have to give the sky a trial.

1622
01:56:57,840 --> 01:56:58,560
Speaker 4: He's handed over.

1623
01:56:58,640 --> 01:57:04,279
Speaker 2: To Virgiliusius was a horrible person. I don't know from

1624
01:57:04,239 --> 01:57:06,319
the sounds of it is horrible. I mean, how does

1625
01:57:06,359 --> 01:57:08,479
that work out? If Virgilius is the pope, but he's

1626
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:10,720
judging a former pope. That means that the deposition of

1627
01:57:10,760 --> 01:57:13,399
the former pope had to be valid if.

1628
01:57:13,279 --> 01:57:14,439
Speaker 4: Virgilius is a pope.

1629
01:57:14,439 --> 01:57:18,560
Speaker 2: If if the deposition is not invalid and Virgilius is

1630
01:57:18,640 --> 01:57:20,600
judging him, then you still have the situation of a

1631
01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:22,119
pope being judged by non pope.

1632
01:57:22,680 --> 01:57:23,760
Speaker 6: I'll be candid with you.

1633
01:57:23,920 --> 01:57:27,000
Speaker 12: This is something that I have not really had a

1634
01:57:27,079 --> 01:57:28,359
satisfactory answer to.

1635
01:57:29,239 --> 01:57:35,680
Speaker 1: So the best top papacy apologist can't explain the very

1636
01:57:35,760 --> 01:57:39,399
thing that Lofton just said is the best argument for

1637
01:57:39,439 --> 01:57:43,119
the papacy? Are you serious or one of the best.

1638
01:57:43,039 --> 01:57:46,760
Speaker 4: Fourth council Leo? He most certainly thought his son was

1639
01:57:46,800 --> 01:57:50,079
a definitive prior to an ecumenical council.

1640
01:57:50,359 --> 01:57:54,680
Speaker 1: Nobody didn't, though, And the quote that we just saw

1641
01:57:54,920 --> 01:58:00,520
from Richard Price refutes that. You see, And I wonder

1642
01:58:00,560 --> 01:58:02,600
if they still have the Price thing up. They might

1643
01:58:02,600 --> 01:58:05,079
have taken it down just because it doesn't fit with

1644
01:58:06,159 --> 01:58:15,560
Lofton's narrative. Right, So you hear you heard what Lofton said, Right?

1645
01:58:17,640 --> 01:58:24,239
We know it's so obvious that Chalcedon Chalcedon thought Leo

1646
01:58:24,760 --> 01:58:30,159
was authoritative and he had full temporal power and supremacy.

1647
01:58:30,199 --> 01:58:31,359
Let's hear it once more.

1648
01:58:32,159 --> 01:58:35,199
Speaker 4: Why did the bishops in Chalcedon feel they needed to

1649
01:58:35,279 --> 01:58:39,279
judge Theodora if Leo had already reinstated him.

1650
01:58:39,560 --> 01:58:43,800
Speaker 1: So why are the bishops of Chalcedon separately judging this

1651
01:58:43,880 --> 01:58:48,439
individual called Theodora? It's over the Nestorian question, even though

1652
01:58:48,479 --> 01:58:55,039
they knew that Leo had already pronounced a condemnation. If

1653
01:58:55,960 --> 01:59:00,319
Leo had ex cathedra papal power and authority, they would

1654
01:59:00,399 --> 01:59:05,319
not rejudge something that Rome has spoken cases closed, right,

1655
01:59:06,479 --> 01:59:09,600
And what does their scholar that they're relying on here

1656
01:59:09,680 --> 01:59:11,760
with all of these translations of the council.

1657
01:59:11,560 --> 01:59:22,800
Speaker 13: Said, Well, they didn't they didn't recognize Roman jurisdiction in

1658
01:59:22,840 --> 01:59:23,880
the Eastern Prophnce.

1659
01:59:24,000 --> 01:59:28,079
Speaker 1: Oh oh, oops, I guess it's not Vatican One at

1660
01:59:28,079 --> 01:59:29,039
the time of Calcedon.

1661
01:59:29,159 --> 01:59:33,720
Speaker 4: Is it ruling on the matter? And what's even more interesting,

1662
01:59:33,720 --> 01:59:37,840
he is he overturns a canon of the Council of Calcedon.

1663
01:59:39,079 --> 01:59:43,039
Speaker 1: Oops. Oops, it's not what he does.

1664
01:59:45,239 --> 01:59:49,760
Speaker 4: By the authority of Saint Peter a council.

1665
01:59:50,159 --> 01:59:53,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the Roman Catholic revisionist story of what

1666
01:59:53,279 --> 01:59:56,520
Canon twenty eight of Calceildon is about. When you actually

1667
01:59:56,600 --> 02:00:00,600
look at what Leo says, Leo does not say, I

1668
02:00:00,680 --> 02:00:04,000
reject this because I'm the pope. I rejected because of Rome.

1669
02:00:04,600 --> 02:00:11,640
Canon twenty eight of Calceldon that Constantinople one had already

1670
02:00:11,760 --> 02:00:20,439
enacted by the way out of Connunia with Rome made

1671
02:00:20,800 --> 02:00:27,039
Constantinople second after Rome. So it placed new Rome second

1672
02:00:27,239 --> 02:00:36,359
after old Rome. All right, so here it is, and

1673
02:00:37,119 --> 02:00:41,319
why did Leo reject this? It had nothing to do

1674
02:00:41,720 --> 02:00:46,720
with Vatican one papal prerogatives. The real reason why, if

1675
02:00:46,760 --> 02:00:50,439
you actually read into the subject matter, is that Leo believed,

1676
02:00:51,000 --> 02:00:58,000
somewhat correctly, you could argue that Canon twenty eight of Calclodon,

1677
02:00:58,079 --> 02:01:01,840
which is actually a canon from Constantinople one, at this

1678
02:01:01,960 --> 02:01:05,279
time Rome had not yet accepted Constantinople one. Keep that

1679
02:01:05,319 --> 02:01:09,119
in mind. Leo believed that it violated the rights and

1680
02:01:09,159 --> 02:01:12,560
the privileges of Canon six of Nicia. So if you

1681
02:01:12,640 --> 02:01:15,119
go back to Nicia, Canon six says, let the ancient

1682
02:01:15,199 --> 02:01:18,880
customs in Egypt, Libya and Libya and Patapolis prevail. The

1683
02:01:18,920 --> 02:01:22,680
Bishop Alexandria has jurisdiction in all these since his like

1684
02:01:22,840 --> 02:01:26,520
is customary for the bishop of Rome and likewise Antioch.

1685
02:01:26,640 --> 02:01:30,880
So notice the jurisdiction of Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria is

1686
02:01:31,000 --> 02:01:34,039
all likened to be similar. By the way, there's nothing

1687
02:01:34,079 --> 02:01:39,279
about universal autocratic, unilateral jurisdiction here. And when you bring

1688
02:01:39,279 --> 02:01:41,319
it up to the Roman Catholics, well, it's an argument

1689
02:01:41,479 --> 02:01:44,119
from solnce because they just all knew it. It's not there,

1690
02:01:44,199 --> 02:01:47,000
but they knew it. So again they ignore the country

1691
02:01:47,000 --> 02:01:49,079
evidence and just assume it and say that it's an

1692
02:01:49,119 --> 02:01:52,039
argument from silence, which is what it borrow says. Now,

1693
02:01:53,199 --> 02:01:57,319
Leo thought that to say that Constantinople now was the

1694
02:01:57,359 --> 02:02:02,359
second to see after Rome in this listing of canonical

1695
02:02:02,399 --> 02:02:08,039
privileges would be to violate Canon six of Nicea. So

1696
02:02:08,279 --> 02:02:11,399
it had nothing to do with the authority of the

1697
02:02:11,479 --> 02:02:16,880
Roman bishop. It's rather that this canon, that is Canon

1698
02:02:16,880 --> 02:02:24,359
twentia of Calcildon, was a restatement of a canon from

1699
02:02:24,439 --> 02:02:36,479
Constantinople one. Constantinople one tried to make for the East.

1700
02:02:37,319 --> 02:02:58,720
In the East saw this as a ecumenical council. They

1701
02:02:58,800 --> 02:03:14,600
tried to make the UH the place of Constantinople second right.

1702
02:03:15,479 --> 02:03:29,399
And if you go to UH Nicia. It's different in

1703
02:03:29,479 --> 02:03:32,079
terms of the canonical structure. Right, so it differs from

1704
02:03:32,199 --> 02:03:46,119
Nicea in the canonical structure. So here you see, here's

1705
02:03:46,920 --> 02:03:54,720
here's Constantinople one. Right, here's Canon three. Because it is

1706
02:03:54,800 --> 02:03:59,399
new Rome. Let the Bishop of Constantinople enjoy the privileges

1707
02:03:59,439 --> 02:04:02,439
of honor after the Bishop of Rome. Does this say

1708
02:04:02,439 --> 02:04:07,760
anything about papal prerogatives unilateral jurisdiction. No? No, it says

1709
02:04:07,800 --> 02:04:12,800
the privileges of honor right after the Bishop of Rome,

1710
02:04:13,680 --> 02:04:19,000
and let the patriarchal Constantinople be number two. See so

1711
02:04:19,920 --> 02:04:24,840
Leo says that's not fair to the canonical structure listed

1712
02:04:24,840 --> 02:04:30,279
at Chalcedon. That's why Leo rejects it. Right, has nothing

1713
02:04:30,319 --> 02:04:34,279
to do with Vatican one papal powers. He just doesn't

1714
02:04:34,359 --> 02:04:39,560
accept it because the papacy did not accept Constantinople one

1715
02:04:39,600 --> 02:04:43,720
at this time. Constant Noble one is the Trinity Council.

1716
02:04:44,199 --> 02:04:47,800
It's the council that was held out of communion with Rome,

1717
02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:57,439
which dogmatize the Cappadocian doctrine of the Trinity. The decree

1718
02:04:57,479 --> 02:05:00,239
of that council says you must follow the two of

1719
02:05:00,279 --> 02:05:05,079
Saint Gregory of Nissa to be orthodox in your trinitarian theology.

1720
02:05:05,520 --> 02:05:07,359
And by the way, the Roman Church does not follow that.

1721
02:05:08,359 --> 02:05:15,359
So constantinople One is not accepted as an ecumenical council

1722
02:05:15,479 --> 02:05:19,800
until centuries after Leo by the West. Do you hear me?

1723
02:05:19,960 --> 02:05:25,840
The papacy later accepts constantinople One even though it was

1724
02:05:25,840 --> 02:05:29,079
called out of commune with Rome. It's presiding St. St.

1725
02:05:29,079 --> 02:05:30,840
Meldio's died out of commune with Rome.

1726
02:05:31,640 --> 02:05:32,720
Speaker 6: Oh, it just.

1727
02:05:32,720 --> 02:05:37,079
Speaker 1: Happens to magically retroactively be an ecumenical council once Rome

1728
02:05:37,119 --> 02:05:41,439
accepts it, and it dogmatizes the Trinity. So you understand

1729
02:05:41,479 --> 02:05:44,399
that what they're talking about, they actually understood this. It

1730
02:05:44,479 --> 02:05:47,720
actually destroys the Vatican One via the Papacy because it's

1731
02:05:47,760 --> 02:05:53,199
admitting that this original controversial canon comes from a council

1732
02:05:53,680 --> 02:05:59,800
that defines and dogmatizes the Trinity outside of communion with Rome.

1733
02:06:01,680 --> 02:06:05,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, no doubt, which, if you think about it, the

1734
02:06:05,520 --> 02:06:08,399
proceeding has been set at the Council of Jerusalem in

1735
02:06:08,600 --> 02:06:13,000
X chapter fifteen. Now, nobody's going to doubt or argue

1736
02:06:13,279 --> 02:06:15,359
that the head of the church in Jerusalem.

1737
02:06:14,920 --> 02:06:18,119
Speaker 4: Was James Nobody, of course, But who is the one

1738
02:06:18,159 --> 02:06:18,680
that makes the.

1739
02:06:18,640 --> 02:06:24,239
Speaker 6: Decision and James of course after James. Of course, James agrees,

1740
02:06:24,920 --> 02:06:27,319
But it is Saint Peter who does it. And that's

1741
02:06:27,359 --> 02:06:31,479
a big, big factor because you look at the commentary

1742
02:06:31,520 --> 02:06:34,840
in X fifteen by Saint Jerome and he's noting the

1743
02:06:34,960 --> 02:06:38,319
very same thing, calling Peter Saint Peter the prime mover

1744
02:06:38,720 --> 02:06:39,399
of the Council.

1745
02:06:39,600 --> 02:06:42,720
Speaker 1: So well, first of all, the fact that Jerome says

1746
02:06:42,720 --> 02:06:49,239
that that also doesn't translate into Vatican Ones claims and

1747
02:06:49,279 --> 02:06:55,439
there's nothing in this that tells us that because so

1748
02:06:55,479 --> 02:06:58,840
hold on. So they're admitting that it's presided over by James.

1749
02:06:59,319 --> 02:07:02,479
But they're saying, but Peter makes all the decisions. What

1750
02:07:02,560 --> 02:07:07,680
does it actually say at the decree here it pleads

1751
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:13,239
the apostles and the elders with the whole church to

1752
02:07:13,319 --> 02:07:19,800
send this out. Does it say anything about papal decree?

1753
02:07:20,000 --> 02:07:23,279
There is no papal decree model here. In fact, it's

1754
02:07:23,319 --> 02:07:26,359
so bad for them they actually have to say that, well,

1755
02:07:26,399 --> 02:07:30,439
Peter spoke at the beginning, and Jerome thinks that he

1756
02:07:31,279 --> 02:07:36,359
was important at the council. But they just admitted that

1757
02:07:36,399 --> 02:07:44,079
it was presided over right by James. Now let's see

1758
02:07:44,119 --> 02:07:46,920
what their argument is. The apostles and the elders came

1759
02:07:46,960 --> 02:07:51,039
together to consider this matter. There's a dispute. Peter spoke

1760
02:07:51,079 --> 02:07:54,960
and said, men of God, you know that God chose

1761
02:07:55,000 --> 02:07:58,840
me to be the mouth of the gentiles. God knows

1762
02:07:58,920 --> 02:08:02,000
the heart and acknowledge them by giving them the Holy Spirit.

1763
02:08:02,039 --> 02:08:06,800
Just seated us, so we should receive them without much fuss.

1764
02:08:07,359 --> 02:08:13,119
Then all the multitude kept silent, and Barnabas and Paul

1765
02:08:13,239 --> 02:08:20,239
declared the wonders that they had done. So Peter speaks,

1766
02:08:20,760 --> 02:08:25,560
Barnabas and Paul speak, Everyone's silent, and then after everyone

1767
02:08:25,680 --> 02:08:32,239
was silent, James answers. So the focal point of this section,

1768
02:08:34,199 --> 02:08:37,319
just because Peter begins talking, that doesn't prove anything. How

1769
02:08:37,319 --> 02:08:42,239
does that prove Vatican won? In fact, if I'm going

1770
02:08:42,319 --> 02:08:48,319
to argue from the reverence, it's everyone becoming silent when

1771
02:08:48,439 --> 02:08:55,880
James speaks. James has the final say, not Peter. They didn't.

1772
02:08:55,920 --> 02:08:59,199
He just admit that James was presiding. Why would James

1773
02:08:59,199 --> 02:09:03,840
preside when Peter has the superiority. It should be Peter's presiding.

1774
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:21,920
So James has the final say so right here, and

1775
02:09:21,960 --> 02:09:24,319
then we get the Jerusalem Decree, where in the Jerusalem

1776
02:09:24,319 --> 02:09:30,119
Decree do you see anything like the unilateral papal decrees

1777
02:09:30,760 --> 02:09:34,000
that you see in the later eras of the church.

1778
02:09:43,960 --> 02:09:48,079
Why didn't the letter just say Peter spoken cases closed?

1779
02:09:48,359 --> 02:09:52,319
Remember they argue Peter has spoken through Leo Rome has

1780
02:09:52,359 --> 02:09:56,239
spoken cases closed. Why didn't they just say Peter has

1781
02:09:56,279 --> 02:10:03,880
spoken cases closed? What's even the need for a synod? Anyway?

1782
02:10:04,760 --> 02:10:11,399
Speaker 6: We're not infected with Peterson when we begin to quote

1783
02:10:11,439 --> 02:10:15,319
passages from the Bible and then quote commentary on the

1784
02:10:15,359 --> 02:10:16,920
way the fathers viewed those passages.

1785
02:10:17,399 --> 02:10:25,000
Speaker 1: And yeah, but if you read Denny's book Papalism, he

1786
02:10:25,079 --> 02:10:28,600
has an entire chapter pointing out that the majority interpretation

1787
02:10:28,760 --> 02:10:32,600
of Matthew sixteen is not that it's Peter. So once again,

1788
02:10:32,840 --> 02:10:39,079
the majority, the consensus, which is largely I think there's

1789
02:10:39,119 --> 02:10:42,399
like sixteen or so that think that it's Peter himself.

1790
02:10:42,880 --> 02:10:46,800
The majority is no, it's Peter's confession or it's something else, right,

1791
02:10:47,159 --> 02:10:51,680
Peter's faith in that case, Well, we don't care about

1792
02:10:51,680 --> 02:10:56,399
the majority. You see, so selectively quote mining again and

1793
02:10:56,520 --> 02:11:00,079
ignoring the contrary or the majority is precisely what they do.

1794
02:11:00,479 --> 02:11:04,600
Speaker 6: It's important because we see a kernel of how that

1795
02:11:04,800 --> 02:11:05,880
leadership was.

1796
02:11:06,800 --> 02:11:10,520
Speaker 1: Oh so you see it's not actually Vatican One, which

1797
02:11:10,600 --> 02:11:13,199
was supposed to be there from the outset, believed by all.

1798
02:11:13,279 --> 02:11:16,199
It's now the seeds and the kernels once again. So

1799
02:11:16,319 --> 02:11:19,479
when there's not evidence, it's the seeds. But at the

1800
02:11:19,520 --> 02:11:21,960
same time they say it was always there. It was

1801
02:11:22,039 --> 02:11:30,279
clear Henry twenty eight seventeen. Side note, new monastic lore dropped.

1802
02:11:30,279 --> 02:11:31,840
I don't know what that means. Harry Supponis went o.

1803
02:11:32,039 --> 02:11:35,359
The philly Oquay downs downgrades the Holy Spirit, and it

1804
02:11:35,439 --> 02:11:38,079
encourages all these papal heresies. Yes, not an accident that

1805
02:11:38,159 --> 02:11:41,920
once the Phillioquay becomes more and more accepted in the West.

1806
02:11:42,800 --> 02:11:46,640
It's it's the same thing with the rise of the papacy, right,

1807
02:11:46,680 --> 02:11:51,439
the papacy coming to power is exactly when they begin

1808
02:11:51,720 --> 02:11:55,560
their rejection of the Father as the sole archae in

1809
02:11:55,600 --> 02:11:59,760
the Godhead. Papal supremacy is a demonic usurping of the

1810
02:11:59,800 --> 02:12:04,439
world of spirit. Yeah, exactly, Charard's book on that. That's

1811
02:12:04,439 --> 02:12:07,000
really good church papacy schism. That's pretty much the whole

1812
02:12:07,239 --> 02:12:14,960
argument for the most part. Let's talk God, please search

1813
02:12:15,039 --> 02:12:16,840
up and I'm gonna I'm not gonna play those clips.

1814
02:12:17,199 --> 02:12:22,000
Joshua Ward five dollars. William wants to debate the ingredients

1815
02:12:22,039 --> 02:12:25,279
of your male enhancement pills. They say that you sell

1816
02:12:25,479 --> 02:12:29,439
fake pills. They're not male enhancement pills. They're pills that

1817
02:12:29,520 --> 02:12:32,840
relate to adaptogens and workouts, so it has nothing to

1818
02:12:32,840 --> 02:12:36,800
do with mail enhancement. They're not fake pills. You can

1819
02:12:39,239 --> 02:12:43,640
go get them and see for yourself. I mean, it's

1820
02:12:43,680 --> 02:12:46,359
a multimillion dollar company. How would it be fake pills.

1821
02:12:46,439 --> 02:12:50,520
John Milner thirteen ninety nine, Canadian Christ is God Jordaan

1822
02:12:50,640 --> 02:12:59,960
five dollars. Brother Sam said, God is my witness Jay.

1823
02:13:00,000 --> 02:13:03,039
He is calling me a bald inward in my studio.

1824
02:13:03,239 --> 02:13:06,640
The clips are all over Twitty's that's fake, man. I mean,

1825
02:13:06,680 --> 02:13:11,399
I'm sitting in here livestream with you. That's all fake.

1826
02:13:12,039 --> 02:13:15,600
Sisiphost Canadian ten dollars. Set up a debate on a

1827
02:13:15,640 --> 02:13:17,399
neutral platform. I'll try to get him to come to

1828
02:13:17,399 --> 02:13:24,640
a neutral platform tonight. You're betting on all Brick not

1829
02:13:24,720 --> 02:13:28,000
being available. Yeah sure, yeah, I'm scared, even though I

1830
02:13:28,039 --> 02:13:30,960
showed you at the beginning of the stream five years

1831
02:13:30,960 --> 02:13:32,760
ago where I tried to set up debates with William

1832
02:13:32,800 --> 02:13:34,880
Albreck and he would just postpone it for six months.

1833
02:13:34,880 --> 02:13:40,039
Every time I do it, Cosmicgoulo five dollars. I realized

1834
02:13:40,039 --> 02:13:41,760
that William was not very good when he did a

1835
02:13:41,840 --> 02:13:45,119
video on Purgatory and Palomas and Descythius. He tried to

1836
02:13:45,119 --> 02:13:49,279
say the Orthodox don't teach what Palamas says. Okay, whatever,

1837
02:13:50,199 --> 02:13:54,399
that's crazy, glitchy two dollars. I just got here chat

1838
02:13:54,520 --> 02:13:56,560
yes or no. I don't know what that means. Common

1839
02:13:56,560 --> 02:14:00,840
sense ten dollars. Jane Ever said that we need to

1840
02:14:00,840 --> 02:14:04,680
debate right now. Yeah, it just says. I'll show you

1841
02:14:04,720 --> 02:14:17,479
what it says. I sent him two different messages. I'll

1842
02:14:17,479 --> 02:14:32,000
show you what I sent him on here. So here's

1843
02:14:32,039 --> 02:14:40,399
this meltdown material here, what's this? This is two different

1844
02:14:40,439 --> 02:14:44,119
messages here. One says, how are Protestants going to be

1845
02:14:44,119 --> 02:14:46,479
better off defenders of the Trinity than the Orthodox? So

1846
02:14:46,520 --> 02:14:49,359
that's the initial thing that I took issue with. Then

1847
02:14:49,359 --> 02:14:51,279
I said, how about you and Albert come debate me

1848
02:14:51,319 --> 02:14:54,720
on the energies and the triad okay? And then I

1849
02:14:54,760 --> 02:14:58,079
sent him a letter to thirty four Basil and then

1850
02:14:58,119 --> 02:15:01,079
I said we can have a friendly exchange. Whoa, Oh

1851
02:15:01,119 --> 02:15:04,680
my gosh, I'm unreal. And I sent the exact same

1852
02:15:04,720 --> 02:15:08,159
thing on Twitter, except for maybe a couple words different.

1853
02:15:09,800 --> 02:15:12,760
So that's what called That's what caused today's flip up.

1854
02:15:20,840 --> 02:15:24,880
When he called in, they played dumb William ran and

1855
02:15:24,960 --> 02:15:29,079
accused Jay of calling only because he left. Try to

1856
02:15:29,159 --> 02:15:34,279
keep up. I holify, I heal a five five dollars,

1857
02:15:34,439 --> 02:15:37,720
Eric five dollars. This is what happens when Sham Chamun

1858
02:15:37,840 --> 02:15:44,159
lets the hul comania run wild himself. Brother mL hated

1859
02:15:44,199 --> 02:15:50,880
Kummunism three dollars. At forty nine minutes of his stream,

1860
02:15:51,000 --> 02:15:53,119
you can see the real reason why he's mad. Go

1861
02:15:53,199 --> 02:15:57,640
watch it before he deletes it. I don't know. I'm

1862
02:15:57,640 --> 02:15:59,840
not gonna I don't I don't even follow or keep

1863
02:15:59,880 --> 02:16:02,399
up with this stuff like these people are they think

1864
02:16:02,439 --> 02:16:04,680
that I'm like following and watching all their stuff, Like

1865
02:16:05,760 --> 02:16:08,479
I watched Sam Schmun here and there, mainly clips. I

1866
02:16:08,479 --> 02:16:11,479
don't follow his live streams. I was interested in today's

1867
02:16:11,520 --> 02:16:14,680
live stream because he was talking about Protestant and Catholic

1868
02:16:14,760 --> 02:16:19,399
doctrine views of the Trinity. Models of the Trinity. Roland

1869
02:16:19,800 --> 02:16:21,920
William is ready to debate. Are you ready? I mean

1870
02:16:22,039 --> 02:16:25,079
I thought we're gonna do it tonight. Forty two attack

1871
02:16:25,119 --> 02:16:27,439
three dollars. Favorite part of tonight. All of us Catholics

1872
02:16:27,479 --> 02:16:30,880
in the chrispal chat want Andrew to moderate. I thought

1873
02:16:30,920 --> 02:16:35,559
we were going to do it. Beny Canadian two dollars

1874
02:16:35,840 --> 02:16:39,399
time stamp. He is live. This must be old. Look

1875
02:16:39,399 --> 02:16:41,799
you miond go love your cell p oh dollars? Am

1876
02:16:41,799 --> 02:16:46,200
I am? I own opinion. The only thing that the

1877
02:16:46,360 --> 02:16:50,719
ORB could be is an uncreated energy. It's from God. Yeah,

1878
02:16:50,760 --> 02:16:54,559
I'm sure that's what it is. If at Jay versus

1879
02:16:54,559 --> 02:16:57,319
All Break debate happens, it must be blood sports. Well

1880
02:16:58,520 --> 02:17:01,719
I don't. That guy is the worst. And I say

1881
02:17:01,799 --> 02:17:03,319
the reason I say is the worst first of all

1882
02:17:03,360 --> 02:17:05,120
is that you see the tear of the apologetics we

1883
02:17:05,159 --> 02:17:10,440
get here right. It's just literal, low tier quote minding.

1884
02:17:10,440 --> 02:17:17,760
That's about all it is. And the reason he's such

1885
02:17:17,799 --> 02:17:23,280
a nasty individual is that years ago on a live stream,

1886
02:17:24,520 --> 02:17:26,280
he started saying this stuff like he was going to

1887
02:17:26,319 --> 02:17:28,760
fight me in real life, and I clipped it. I

1888
02:17:28,799 --> 02:17:31,639
have the screenshots. And then he says, I never said that.

1889
02:17:31,719 --> 02:17:33,200
I never said that. I mean he was saying it

1890
02:17:33,200 --> 02:17:34,600
in the chat. He's like he wants to fight in

1891
02:17:34,639 --> 02:17:37,600
real life, which is so ridiculous because we were talking

1892
02:17:37,600 --> 02:17:42,040
about doing a debate, because again in twenty nineteen and

1893
02:17:42,120 --> 02:17:44,959
twenty twenty, I tried to schedule debates with him and

1894
02:17:45,000 --> 02:17:47,159
he would just postpone it for six months every time.

1895
02:17:47,920 --> 02:17:51,639
So here we are five years later, six years later,

1896
02:17:52,079 --> 02:17:55,120
and he's claiming that I'm scared to debate him. It's

1897
02:17:55,120 --> 02:17:58,360
the same point that UBI made, is that UBI also

1898
02:17:58,520 --> 02:18:02,280
tried to work out with All Bricked, and you just

1899
02:18:02,360 --> 02:18:06,600
get this, you know, tap dancing play that like it's

1900
02:18:06,680 --> 02:18:10,159
like I don't have time to run through this game

1901
02:18:10,200 --> 02:18:13,600
with you, like we've already tried to do this. If

1902
02:18:13,639 --> 02:18:14,840
you go back to the beginning of the stream, the

1903
02:18:14,840 --> 02:18:16,680
first thing I talked about, I showed you his old

1904
02:18:16,719 --> 02:18:18,959
messages where he would say, oh, I need six months,

1905
02:18:19,000 --> 02:18:21,040
so give me another six months, give me another six months,

1906
02:18:21,680 --> 02:18:23,479
and it just got old. I just finally moved on.

1907
02:18:27,040 --> 02:18:30,079
And then I called Albert one day because I had

1908
02:18:30,159 --> 02:18:33,440
I used to have his phone number, and he went

1909
02:18:33,520 --> 02:18:35,680
melted down at all. He lost it on me and

1910
02:18:35,719 --> 02:18:39,159
said that there is no discord. This is like twenty

1911
02:18:39,479 --> 02:18:42,600
twenty somewhere in there in twenty twenty one, so that

1912
02:18:43,079 --> 02:18:45,040
I don't have a discord. It's all made up I

1913
02:18:45,079 --> 02:18:48,000
paid bots to go in there. There is no no

1914
02:18:48,040 --> 02:18:50,680
one is converting to Orthodoxy. This literally, this is what

1915
02:18:50,719 --> 02:18:53,959
he said. And then he gave my phone number to Lofton,

1916
02:18:54,719 --> 02:18:57,719
and then Lofton sent me a fake lawsuit threat. So

1917
02:18:57,799 --> 02:18:59,760
this is what we're dealing with. This is the people

1918
02:18:59,760 --> 02:19:04,120
that were talking about here. Juliana Talant five dollars, sir,

1919
02:19:04,239 --> 02:19:06,879
thank you for all that you've done with your lectures,

1920
02:19:06,879 --> 02:19:09,719
presentations and debates. When I ask you some questions about

1921
02:19:10,280 --> 02:19:14,239
they're troubling me. PS. Great victory for the devil for

1922
02:19:14,319 --> 02:19:18,000
the trash of Sam Shamun. It's so sad. Common sense

1923
02:19:18,040 --> 02:19:21,200
one hundred dollars. You handled this very well. You're often

1924
02:19:21,200 --> 02:19:23,799
accused of being mean, but I've lost respect for Shamun.

1925
02:19:24,079 --> 02:19:30,600
These are all bogus accusations. Fwintes admits that his debate

1926
02:19:30,639 --> 02:19:34,399
with you is the worst, but seeing this, he did

1927
02:19:34,639 --> 02:19:37,680
the most with what he had. Stay strong, be humble,

1928
02:19:38,040 --> 02:19:39,680
God bless you and your family. Well, thank you for

1929
02:19:39,719 --> 02:19:42,840
that generous super chat. I appreciate that. SS twenty one

1930
02:19:42,879 --> 02:19:47,079
five dollars. See what John Christism says about Acts fifteen.

1931
02:19:47,440 --> 02:19:51,719
Ibarra has a paper on it that basically refutes himself.

1932
02:19:52,120 --> 02:19:55,600
That's interesting. Everybody should look up chrystalstom on Acts fifteen.

1933
02:19:55,639 --> 02:19:58,040
I don't have my church father's set here at this house,

1934
02:19:58,680 --> 02:20:02,319
so I can't look it up. But if you if

1935
02:20:02,319 --> 02:20:04,079
there's a link on new admit you guys can send

1936
02:20:04,079 --> 02:20:08,559
it to me. Store ninety six five dollars. Shout out

1937
02:20:08,559 --> 02:20:11,920
to my dog block Party Vintage who is now forts

1938
02:20:11,920 --> 02:20:17,079
certified Carrie s MW nine three dollars if possible, not

1939
02:20:17,120 --> 02:20:20,920
too much. Could you summarize your position on what we're

1940
02:20:21,360 --> 02:20:24,680
we're critiquing the papers position all night tonight v N

1941
02:20:24,799 --> 02:20:27,879
two dollars. You are a genius, big fan. Keep it up,

1942
02:20:27,920 --> 02:20:28,840
thanks man, I appreciate that.

1943
02:20:29,360 --> 02:20:32,200
Speaker 6: And of course it becomes much more fleshed out through

1944
02:20:32,239 --> 02:20:35,040
church history. And you bring up a great example there

1945
02:20:35,079 --> 02:20:38,120
with the striking down of the canon. Yeah, that is

1946
02:20:38,200 --> 02:20:42,799
a tough one to overcome there, because somebody that did

1947
02:20:42,840 --> 02:20:46,639
not believe they had that authority vested in them from

1948
02:20:46,799 --> 02:20:50,840
Christ would not have even had the audacity.

1949
02:20:51,440 --> 02:20:54,920
Speaker 1: It was such a thing. But the do it, well,

1950
02:20:54,920 --> 02:20:59,200
that's a false equivalence because that's asking me a non sequitor.

1951
02:20:59,280 --> 02:21:04,879
Because you just heard Richard Price say that the Eastern

1952
02:21:04,920 --> 02:21:09,200
Bishops didn't accept everything that the Roman bishops did because

1953
02:21:09,200 --> 02:21:12,559
they didn't recognize Roman jurisdiction in the East. So the

1954
02:21:12,639 --> 02:21:15,479
fact that someone doesn't accept something that doesn't prove that

1955
02:21:15,520 --> 02:21:19,159
they have papal supremacy. I mean, if the Eastern bishops

1956
02:21:19,159 --> 02:21:21,520
are rejecting something that the West is doing, does that

1957
02:21:21,559 --> 02:21:25,440
mean the Eastern bishops have papal supremacy? Does rejecting something

1958
02:21:25,520 --> 02:21:29,399
prove papal supremacy? It just means that Calcidon that Leo

1959
02:21:29,559 --> 02:21:33,520
didn't accept Constantinople one. But guess what the East did.

1960
02:21:34,120 --> 02:21:37,440
So at the time of Leo, you have differing numbers

1961
02:21:38,239 --> 02:21:41,680
and views of what the councils have been. Right. If

1962
02:21:41,719 --> 02:21:46,120
you're in the East, you believe that there's nicea constantinople

1963
02:21:46,159 --> 02:21:51,319
I ephesis and now Chalcedon. If you're Leo, you believe

1964
02:21:51,360 --> 02:21:57,399
in Nicea ephesis Calcedon. So they don't even accept the

1965
02:21:57,440 --> 02:22:00,680
same councils. Now, guess what who in up being right

1966
02:22:00,719 --> 02:22:06,760
in this situation. Rome a few centuries after Leo accepts

1967
02:22:06,799 --> 02:22:08,760
constant the number one, So the East was right the

1968
02:22:08,920 --> 02:22:13,760
entire time. This all refuses what they're saying. Let's move

1969
02:22:13,760 --> 02:22:16,639
on to their coverage of Francis. Let's see what they

1970
02:22:16,680 --> 02:22:17,520
say about frank.

1971
02:22:19,440 --> 02:22:22,120
Speaker 4: It just seems like that there, you know, there's a

1972
02:22:22,159 --> 02:22:25,040
point of disconnect there now. So in other words, they're

1973
02:22:25,040 --> 02:22:27,959
their hang up is that? Okay? I can see this historically,

1974
02:22:28,040 --> 02:22:29,959
but I just don't know about Paul Francis.

1975
02:22:31,120 --> 02:22:33,079
Speaker 6: The number one thing I would say is I have

1976
02:22:33,200 --> 02:22:36,200
never been the biggest fan of Pulp Francis ever, But

1977
02:22:36,280 --> 02:22:39,680
he is the Vicar of Christ. Sure, here's a valid pope.

1978
02:22:40,040 --> 02:22:44,200
Here's the pope. And in his defense, Michael, I think

1979
02:22:44,200 --> 02:22:47,319
he gets ripped out of context so much. I really

1980
02:22:47,399 --> 02:22:47,760
really do.

1981
02:23:28,399 --> 02:23:34,159
Speaker 1: Fifteen sixty eight gay priests are punished with death in

1982
02:23:34,200 --> 02:23:41,959
this document. Now you can bless couples of the same

1983
02:23:42,000 --> 02:23:45,479
sex in the Roman Catholic Church. This is the Vatican,

1984
02:23:46,239 --> 02:23:53,360
this is Francis's fiducia. Supplicans and the Romancalolics say, well,

1985
02:23:53,360 --> 02:23:55,559
but up at the top it says that you can't

1986
02:23:55,600 --> 02:23:58,319
bless the gay marriage and the bubble. It doesn't matter

1987
02:23:58,360 --> 02:24:00,799
what it says up at the top. All that means

1988
02:24:00,840 --> 02:24:07,680
is that the document contradicts. There you go, So what

1989
02:24:07,719 --> 02:24:09,280
was the point. I'm starting to get tired because it's

1990
02:24:09,360 --> 02:24:14,200
late at night, right, So what was the point of this, Francis,

1991
02:24:14,239 --> 02:24:16,479
I'm showing you another contradiction that disproves them.

1992
02:24:16,559 --> 02:24:16,680
Speaker 6: Right.

1993
02:24:16,799 --> 02:24:23,879
Speaker 1: Francis says, the Gospel is contrary to death penalty. Right,

1994
02:24:27,840 --> 02:24:30,760
I'm showing you how crazy and contradictor of the Roman

1995
02:24:30,799 --> 02:24:37,120
Catholic system is. Pope Francis Vatican News. The death penalty

1996
02:24:37,159 --> 02:24:41,319
is inadmissible. It is contrary to the Gospel. Here he says,

1997
02:24:41,360 --> 02:24:48,840
it's contrary to nature. Right. The CDC Congregation of the

1998
02:24:48,879 --> 02:24:52,280
Douction fe has made changes to the death penalty. It

1999
02:24:52,360 --> 02:24:56,360
is no longer admissible. But wait a minute. In fifteen

2000
02:24:56,920 --> 02:25:05,280
sixty eight under Paya, that's the fifth you were punished

2001
02:25:05,319 --> 02:25:08,799
with death if you were a Skittles priest. Do you

2002
02:25:08,840 --> 02:25:17,079
see that punishable by death in fifteen sixty eight. Now

2003
02:25:17,239 --> 02:25:21,520
fast forward to Fiducia supplicons of Francis two years ago.

2004
02:25:21,680 --> 02:25:25,239
The blessings of the same sex couples is now within

2005
02:25:25,280 --> 02:25:29,159
the horizon of the Roman Catholic Church. I'm not talking

2006
02:25:29,200 --> 02:25:34,239
about marriage, but you know what it says here as couples,

2007
02:25:34,280 --> 02:25:41,680
they can be blessed. It's just not marriage. Skittle's priest

2008
02:25:41,760 --> 02:25:47,079
put the death fifteen sixty eight. Now the death monality

2009
02:25:47,120 --> 02:25:49,959
is the country of the Gospel and skittles. Couples can

2010
02:25:49,959 --> 02:25:53,239
be blessed. So here's what Sam Chamoun and William Albreck

2011
02:25:53,360 --> 02:26:01,840
want to convert you to. There you go, I'm mute, dude,

2012
02:26:01,879 --> 02:26:04,120
Thank you, Jay, You're muted, Eric Vigilant Data Loss and

2013
02:26:04,200 --> 02:26:08,120
Jordan Johnson it's because I'm getting tired, so I'm getting

2014
02:26:08,159 --> 02:26:13,719
a little sleepy here, Noel, I'm Mirandez two dollars. God

2015
02:26:13,719 --> 02:26:17,440
wants I'm muted, Logos Logic three dollars. Is this your

2016
02:26:17,479 --> 02:26:20,239
first time on the internet? Si two dollars. I'm mute.

2017
02:26:20,280 --> 02:26:22,079
See maybe I should just unmute because you guys send

2018
02:26:22,120 --> 02:26:30,479
super chats when I'm muted. Ultra violence two dollars. I

2019
02:26:30,479 --> 02:26:33,479
always thought Shimun had a weird, unwarranted level of confidence,

2020
02:26:33,520 --> 02:26:35,760
but I couldn't put my finger on it. Clearly has issues.

2021
02:26:36,040 --> 02:26:39,040
He can meet you like some Dawa Nube bizarre behavior,

2022
02:26:39,559 --> 02:26:46,079
Windy Torrents, I'm mute. Jordan Johnson five dollars. I will

2023
02:26:46,079 --> 02:26:48,479
fight Albrick. He reminds me of a father in law.

2024
02:26:48,559 --> 02:26:56,079
I'm six four, two forty. There's no need to fight

2025
02:26:56,079 --> 02:26:58,040
anybody who just had to refute these stupid positions.

2026
02:26:58,040 --> 02:27:01,760
Speaker 10: Now on the other side to be gives.

2027
02:27:01,840 --> 02:27:03,319
Speaker 1: So I want to keep I want to remind you guys,

2028
02:27:04,120 --> 02:27:08,520
who's the person who asked to debate the theological subject matter?

2029
02:27:08,719 --> 02:27:08,799
Speaker 5: Me?

2030
02:27:09,360 --> 02:27:12,479
Speaker 1: Who's the person that did a stream about the theological

2031
02:27:12,520 --> 02:27:13,159
subject matter?

2032
02:27:13,280 --> 02:27:13,360
Speaker 3: Me?

2033
02:27:14,000 --> 02:27:17,079
Speaker 1: Did anyone else do that? Or did they just lose

2034
02:27:17,120 --> 02:27:18,280
their minds and melt down?

2035
02:27:20,920 --> 02:27:23,079
Speaker 6: Do I think he can be more precise? Sometimes I do,

2036
02:27:23,440 --> 02:27:26,120
I truly do. But I don't think Pope France this

2037
02:27:26,159 --> 02:27:28,840
is heretical. I think I know he's the pulp. He's

2038
02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:32,760
about successor Saint Peter uh, and I think that there's

2039
02:27:32,799 --> 02:27:33,760
a lot of good he does.

2040
02:27:34,079 --> 02:27:37,959
Speaker 1: Okay, so a lot of platitudes. Where was any actual

2041
02:27:38,000 --> 02:27:45,559
defense of any controversial statements or explanations? So he this

2042
02:27:45,639 --> 02:27:49,200
is presuming questions for Catholics. Right, So every one of

2043
02:27:49,239 --> 02:27:53,319
these little sections is what about that? I can one?

2044
02:27:53,760 --> 02:27:55,520
What about the head of the church? Right, it's all

2045
02:27:55,559 --> 02:27:59,639
sort of questions. What about Pope Francis? Does he have

2046
02:27:59,680 --> 02:28:03,879
an a? He just states his own psychological belief, his

2047
02:28:03,959 --> 02:28:09,440
own self reporting that he believes Francis is the pope. Okay,

2048
02:28:09,520 --> 02:28:12,040
well that's great, but how is that an argument?

2049
02:28:12,639 --> 02:28:16,159
Speaker 6: See? I truly do. I really do think first off,

2050
02:28:16,879 --> 02:28:17,920
we villainize him