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do it there. Thank you. Want to welcome everyone back
to the Peking Yana Show. Thomas, Hey, how are you doing?
Speaker 2: I'm doing very well.
Speaker 1: Thanks for hosting me, of course, well, this is a
subject that came out of a Twitter conversation, but it's
a subject that I've talked about a lot in the past,
and I know you have some very strong opinions on.
So let's get into this. Let's talk about the police.
Speaker 2: The thing to keep in mind is that modern policing
it's it's it's as structured like as we conceptualize it
here in the United States as a subject of recent vintage.
People seem to this idea. I mean, there's all kinds
of mythologies are on the modern state that somewhat deliberately
have been cultivated to try and seem it into people.
It's idea that these features are perennial, like structurally, I
mean as well as ethically when they're not. So when
you raise the issue with people that modern policing is
kind of run its core or so it's kind of
being phased out. Like people seem to think one of
two things. If they don't know me and are particularly
sophisticated on you know, political sociology and and things like that,
they have this idea that I'm I'm forwarding some some
you know, some minrapist argument like I want the police
to go away and they don't have a mandate. I'm
not saying that. I mean that that whether they're true
or not doesn't matter, or they think of suggesting that
this kind of lump and revolt, however contrived and you know,
cultivated by by by organized political interests, it's just going
to be like, you know, like public frust is going
to be such that, you know, police departments become so
kind of gilded and defanged verbally speaking, that they can
no longer implement the mandate, that mandate that they've been granted.
I'm not I'm not saying that either, Okay, Like what
I'm saying is that in structure terms, this is something
that's run its course, Okay. And increasingly police functions are
going to continue to collapse and do what in the
post Cold War era has been viewed as kind of
military and general security functions. Police services are going to
be increasingly privatized. You know, there's gonna be less and
less of a distinction between the domains where in armed
force enjoys legitimacy, either conditional legitimacy or an absolute sovereign capacity. Okay.
And this is an extricably bound up with the modern
state as it exists today being really rather obsolete, Okay,
But to understand and then to like kind of what
these exigencies are that are are presenting these kinds of
challenges to police departments, particularly big city police forces, not exclusively.
It's not just a matter of like you know, post
George Floyd sentiment and kind of political narratives like those
narratives were able to take a rude on grounds the
phenomenon I'm talking about, Okay, you know, and I think
this is all very ill understood. But you I think
the point a lot that the American system like really
mirrors the UK system, you know, politically and otherwise. The father,
quite literally of of modern policing was Robert Keel. He
was also kind of the founder of the modern Conservative
Party in Britain. Like the Tories existed before Peel's tenure
as Prime minister, and he was he was Prime Minister twice,
but he he kind of brought the party into the
you know, into the end of the modern age in
a lot of ways, okay, and controlling populations at scale,
particularly in a divided society, that's really kind of the
conditions president for a modern police department. Okay, and make
a mistake. The UK is a uniquely divided society and
it always has been. Okay, That's one of many parallels
between America and the UK. It's it's not just anglical
and cultural foundations. You know, there's divisions in the UK
that there's not in there weren't in in Germany when
Germany was uh, you know, in that brief period it was,
it was unified. But also with sovereign republic, there's there's
there's institutionalized divisions there that that don't exist in France. Okay,
And this this bears directly on on Peel's mandate and
and why he proceeded the way he did and devising
the first real urban police department. Peel was born into money.
His father, uh was a career politician, but he'd made
a fortune and textile manufacturing. So Peel and his whole
family they were kind of insinuated into the They both
had like one foot kind of in the old nobility.
And I think, uh, I think Peel was a there
was a there was a baronet and a barony in
his name, but he also very much was part of
the kind of nascent you know, industrial producer class. You know,
and his education and flid that too, you know. He
took a degree both in classics and in mathematics. The
first entered the House of Commons as a very young guy,
I think around twenty two years old, eighteen oh nine.
But where he really kind of made his bones, as
it were, as kind of a it's kind of a
political manager and fixer. It was his home secretary, you know.
In home secretary, especially in those days kind of at
the zenith of the empire, it was a very important role,
you know, and the mandate was very broad, and it
attracted not just ambitious men, but also a lot of
men who had ideas about you know, the sociological nature
and the mandate that the office carried with it, you know.
And he started out as kind of a conventional old
school Tory. Initially, he very much was behind the institutionalized
discrimination against Catholics. He did a one to eighty on that.
And this wasn't just for cynical reasons, because otherwise he
wouldn't have stuck to his guns from the way he
did on these kinds of matters of equity and social matters.
He sponsored the Catholic Relief Act of eighteen twenty eight,
which for all pradibal purposes repealed was coloquially known as
the Test Act, which had banned Catholics from basically all
manner of government service, as well as making sure they
didn't get officers commissions in the British Army that would
have put them in instead influence you know, policy in
in the in the outer Empire. This is very institutionalized. Okay,
that's not just something that Fanians say or that you know,
kind of like old school like you know, what remains
like you know, the kind of vestigial cadre of of
old school labor party types who you know who who
emphasized that is, you know, being like a key tenant
of the Tories as being this this party sectarian bigotry.
You know, it actually was. The the UK was Rabbi Leani
Catholic until the twentieth century. In a lot of ways
they still are. Obviously, the situation has come amplex in
in ways it wasn't because you know, it's it's no
longer a sovereign country and there's this kind of constellation
of ethnicities that that don't have any meaningful you know,
historical experience in the UK. But you know. Incidentally, the
reason why, like in the UK, you know, cops are
called Bobby's because you know of Robert Peel and then
also they're called Peelers, which is interesting. I think there's
you know, uh, the former kind of treats like like
almost it just like a mascot role. The ladder, you know,
kind of kind of suggests that they're ops, like you know,
it's I think it's kind of telling the nuances in
the English language that uh, I think I'm re subtle
and some people will allow, but you know, at the
end of the day, what I'm getting is what is
what what is peals, what appeals kind of progressive ideas
about you know, the treatment of Catholics. And to be
clear too, nonconformist Protestants were included in in these in
these test Acts, and we're technically precluded from like many
of the same roles and being available to a lot
of the same benefits and institutions as Catholics were. But
slowly but surely there were de fact when the jury
exceptions carved out, particularly as a situation in Ireland deteriorated.
But you know, there was a the law really from
from the time of of like the English Reformation, you
know until kind of the end of the nineteenth century,
Like in every way it was tailored to kind of
guarantee that this like Anglican hegemony, you know, like culturally, economically,
like in every conceivable way.
Speaker 1: Okay, can I let me interrupt. Yes, were the Jews
included in US?
Speaker 2: Yes, But it was complicated because like it wasn't like
a lot of it was unsaid in the case of
the Jews. And it's not like there was some party.
It's not like there was some like formal revolutionary cadre,
but that was like a Jewish fraternal organization that that
also you know, had the power to kind of like
impact like legislation in the commons. Like there was the
fact though, but this also that even that wasn't as
deep as people think. Before the white thing, before the
twentieth century, it was just kind of like a non factor.
That's not like this Israeli became the prime minister like
Grant did. Disraeli was he wasn't like Kissinger in terms
of his personality or in terms of his values, but uh,
he was kind of the Jewish Londoner who it sort
of shed his ethnosectarian skin in real ways, he wasn't
just some morno, you know. But that's a whole different issue,
and the way that was dealt with was a whole
different body of like custom and things that that didn't
have to do with you know, Christian sectarianism. It's it's
a totally iron thing, and we get into that, but
it's if we should do it in another series because
it doesn't really bear on this. But the uh, the
writing on the wall and what ultimately happened of course,
on the heels of World War One in Ireland, like
pel realized like there was gonna be a real problem
he or it's kind of like perfect storm of of
an increasingly radical labor movement that was also increasingly mobilized,
the threat of general strike at the core of the Empire,
which in turn could touch off a sort of wildfire
effect that would spread to you know, the Colored dominions,
and on top of that, you know, an open cientarian
revolt in Ireland and in London and in Liverpool and
in these major urban centers in the UK proper, like
the British Home Islands, I mean Ireland obvis is part
of the UK, then too wherein there were you know,
there were ghetto Wiis Catholics who you know, apprecia appreciable
numbers of them. This this could have been a real bloodbath,
figurative and literal. And it was a frailty that people
were aware of, like men in government and you know,
men insinuated not just into titled society type roles, but
who actually had clout and power. You know, they realized
that there was a real danger here and these people
had to be brought into the fold and made, if
not patriotic, made to believe in good faith terms, that
they had enough of a stake in the enterprise that
they wouldn't try to burn it down. And a modern
police force is devised by Peel and as well as
you know in America, like you know Peel's counterparts in
the post reconstruction era. You know, they they had the
same thing on their mind, you know, modern policing. It's
it's not just it doesn't just owe to the peculiar
exigencies of having to manage theretofore you know on uh
unthinkably highly scaled and complex urban environments which you know,
basically how is you know, one hundreds of thousands or
millions of workers that staff the national economy, like the
way to manage that sociologically and politically, and the way
to suppress the instincts towards revolutionary violence. They're you know,
intrinsic to these populations and the conditions they find themselves.
They were part of redelicate balancing, and you couldn't just
treat these people, you know, like uh, like one might
you know, Cooley's revolting in in in India or something
like politically aside in the fact, you don't do that anyway,
you know, if if you live in you know, if
you live in like a Western society of the era,
but it's also politically it would not have been tenable,
you know, you know, for contexts prior to that, in
lieu of a police department, you know, there were night
watchmen going back to the medieval period who quite literally
post up you know, when the when the town gates
were closed to keep watch out for marauders or for
military enemies or or any or for fires, you know,
literally fire watch. And uh that was you know, essentially
a communitarian volunteer role for younger men. I mean, there
was some kind of stipend and compensation of a nominal sort,
but you know, it was basically derivative of a communitarian impulse.
And in the case of of the court, if there
was a wanted man, you know, before the King's bench,
or in America, you know, before the you know, who
was being hailed in the criminal court by the municipality,
there were constables in bailiffs who were on duty full time,
or you know, you deputize, you deputize a man of
good standing, sometimes even a man who was a lawyer.
You know, okay, you know, get a posse together and
go fetch this bastard, you know, bring him here, like
literally bring him into court. You know, there was so
I mean that that that essentially took care of it.
And you know, this idea that there's this kind of
permanently mobilized armed force that is insinuated into the community
but also outside of it that literally patrols in this
kind of permanent you know, it creates like a permanent
visible presence like that didn't exist before. And one of
the things that caused so many problems for the police
is that a little over a century on into this
like urban policing model, which not coincidentally was a concomonant
with you know, the war on drugs. The police became
this They ceased to be this communitarian element, and they
ceased to be this kind of symbolic sociological governing mechanism,
like they became this kind of secretive, hostile element that
cultivated its own alienage visa via the community that it
was responsible for regulating. You know. And this wasn't some
conspiracy We're getting a lot of ourselves. It owed the
realities of the Cold War. It owed you, you know,
the nature of criminality at scale in the late twentieth century.
It owed the inability of social problems to be resolved
by truly communitarian structures and as as authority, as official authority,
both localized as well as you know, in absolutely sovereign terms,
you know, that would chandl like a dominion over the
entire entirety and territorial territorial space of the country. You know,
they they didn't know what to do about these things.
So their fallback was on this enforcement mechanism that had
the widest and the deepest mandate perverbially speaking, you know,
to regulate human behavior and conduct at scale and to
bring to bear punitive sanctions on people who were unwilling
to comply with these edicts, be them like moral or
pragmatic or both, And that creates kind of a perfect
store of hostilities, you know. But we're not quite there yet,
but we'll get there as this goes on. To take
it back from it, to be clear too, about these
test Acts and these laws governing the rights of peoples
owing to their sectarian confession. This wasn't just superficial. It
wasn't just something that wasn't really enforced except on a
capricious manner when the authorities saw fit to, you know,
deprive somebody of of upward mobility for some discreete political
reason only to emergent crisis or something. I mean, this
was very much a staple of of of the sociological structure,
you know, and it basically people supported it. You know,
if you weren't taking communion in the Anglican Church, you
basically were excluded from public life, you know, and even
if you claimed uh to not be a practicing kid like,
even if you weren't if you were not actively engaged
with the Anglican Church, and if you do not have
a family pedigree, whether you were rich or poor or
neither that demonstrably was was Anglican. You were reviewed as
a as an accusant, okay, and you were reviewed as
somebody who is not to be trusted, and your neighbors
would probably whisper that you were some kind of secret Fenian,
even even if even if you were ethnically Irish, you know.
And again, like I said, nonconformists were included in these
measures too, But the Indemnity Act of seventeen twenty seven
alleviated some of these formal sanctions. But there's a there's
a complex history and kind of and like rather perverse
history between nonconformists and Anglicans that endoors really until recent
memory with the troubles. But that's I raised this because
that's my own heritage, and like I don't must they
like he Michael Jones, he's gotta have it when he
says Protestants, he's talking about Anglicans, and I I don't
appreciate that, and not sex not to have what something
is Anglicans, but because it's he's making a caricature of
of the issue and you know, kind of employing an
opportunity target and and trying to cast us, you know,
like like reformed people as uh like with this like
broad stroke, as if we're some kind of a junior
version of the the traditional Norman aristocracy or something and that,
and that's not remotely accurate. That's why I emphasize that
there's a guy, he's a really good story and his
name is Jonathan Jonathan Jonathan Charles Douglas Clark, and he
wrote a lot about I think he's still alive. He's not.
He's not. I mean, he's getting pretty old. I think
he's in his seventies now. But he was neither like
a Whig historian nor like one of these Marxists. So
he rejected both the kind of the kind of tory
what we view it was kind of like the neo
condish like progressive view of history and institutions as being
this kind of mallible institutions, you know, in the in
the Anglophone world, being this kinds of malleable things that
you know, through this kind of process of trial and
error and ongoing enlightenment quite literally, you know, social conditions
become more equitable in like the open society because of reality.
He rejects that nonsense outright, But nor is he like
one of these. He speaks a lot like hobbs Bough.
I mean he he I got into an argument, not
not not a hostile or punitive bloe, but I got
into an argument with somebody the other day who credited
Clark with with coining the the long century, that that
terminology or that signifier, and he did. He did speak
of the eighteenth century as the quote long eighteenth century
in similar terms at a hobs Bomb described the nineteenth century.
And undoubtedly they were familiar with each other's work products.
But you know, Clark wasn't really the Gaelien in the
terms that a hobbs Bomb was, but he obviously had
as like some of those conceptual prejudices. I don't say
prejudices and punitive terms. I mean, that's just very much
the way he kind of his view of historical time
is oriented, particularly as regards you know, minds as the
kind of prime move on in thistorical process. But the
point was that am looking aristocratic in Geminy that and
the challenge is emergent to its to gemony. That's really
the way to understand everything of a power political nature
that happened within and without the United Kingdom, like really
from the from the time of the War three Kingdoms,
you know, up until like World War One, Okay, and
I believe he's correct, and an adequately deep reading of
a hot with somebody like Carl Schmidt was very very
very adroit we you know, conveyed in in his writing,
not just in the concept of the political but in
the stuff he wrote directly on Hobbs, he's very much
making the same point, although obviously like his topical his
topical emphasies, you know, are are generally more focused on
on discrete features, you know, relating the kind of conceptual
jurisprudness and things and and kind of theoretical foundations that
you know, are intrinsic to the kind of British cultural
mind you know, and uh and such that there is
a British cultural mind. It's it's it's it's Anglican and
aristocratic and you know, so it's a real it's a
real phenomenon. Okay, And again too, like that's why the
emergence of a modern police element in the UK it
was different than in in Germany, whereby by and large, uh,
you know, the poets I have always been sort of
like an internal security element that was very much part
of the military. Okay, that that doesn't just owe to
the fact that, you know, the modern German state is
the house that Bismarck built, and that kind of conceptual perspective,
especially visa the police thing is very Prussian. I mean,
that's part of it. But I posit that that only
became that that was that only became a feature of
the Prussian cultural mind on grounds that basic imagineity that
was accomplished. Now granted, and yes, Germany's about one third
Roman Catholic, but uh, Bismarck's culture comp was tremendously effective
and basically rendering the German state and the civil service
that constituted that state at level of executive enforcement, the
same thing of decision making had become very Protestant by design.
And also sectarian challenges aside, and I don't minimize those.
I mean Germany was literally ground zero of the Thirty
Years War. This was not like a minor thing, but
there it was that despite the regional attachments to Germans,
and despite you know the kind of several populations who
are possessed of discrete cultural forms. You know, like I said,
Swabian is not a Prussian, is not a Bavarian, but
there is like a German identity, like a Deutsche like
racial identity, if you will. There is not a British race. Okay,
there's constituent elements of Great Britain, but I nobody would
argue to the contrary. I don't believe, okay. And that's
fundamentally important. And that's one of the reasons why again
it's it's not just it's not just some sort of
like anglophone conceptual bias abstracted from historical experience in the
UK and America. One of the common strains that is facilitated,
it's kind of enduring, like a mirroring between the two
political cultures, like always do both us and them being
like intractive, we divided societies and I will I will
die on that hill. Okay. Now bring it back to
Clerk's kind of point and how it relates to our
discussion topically after about eighteen thirty or so, despite the
fact that, yeah, the vast majority of not just aristocrats
but like upperly mobile middle class types in England but
also in the UK and in Ulster. Oh again, in Ulster,
it's a little more complicated. People basically believed in like
not just the divine right of the British crown. But
you know, they believe their hereditary nobility was basically doing
his job historical terms, you know, they believe the kind
of parameters of traditional authority from Tennessax, the six on word,
with the Anglican Church being a kind of theological and
aesthetical and cultural lynchpin of these things. They viewed that
it's basically a good thing. Like Nevertheless, there were political
variables that were very real that were undermining it, you know,
and a lot of these, a lot of these sociological
and sociopolitical factors were the same things that ultimately were
you know, culminated in like the eighteen forty eight revolutions,
you know, which in turn also you know, kind of
kicked off the decades on the process whereby revolutionary communism
kind of became the default perspective of the working classes,
you know, locally moderated as it may have been, by
traditional cultural praguice is or a vestigil attachment to the
national or local culture or just out now, you know,
like religious belief. You know that the fact remains that
in every punctuated way, there was cracks emerging within this structure.
That really for the preceding you know, seven, eight, seven
or eighth centuries said had been essentially insurmountable and such
as threats to it were emergent, they were emerging from without,
and the standard bears of these threats were characterized first
and foremost by their absolute alienage. Okay, so this changed everything.
But you know, and Peel the degree to which he
quite literally drafted like a manifesto and like various policy
papers on what the mandate should be of an urban
police department and what its relationships should be to the
judiciary and the executive and the Crown, but most importantly
to the community that it served. He drafted some of
his allies in the government to produce this document known
as the Royal Commission on Constabulary Forces. And the report
didn't just it wasn't just emergent as some kind of
last minute policy declaration to appease you know, the official
opposition or something like. There had been a serious committee
corral to evaluate exactly how this kind of nascent police
force I would work with the poor laws as they
were called, you know, to what degree the police were
you know, to kind of like enforce these superficially paternalistic
but basically punitive, you know, uh, legislative mandates which conferred
upon the local executive the ability to quite literally like
place people under arrest for fratal purposes and put them
in poor houses. You know. Peal was hyper aware of
this potentiality, and he basically said, like, we can't, we
can't become the kind of like uniform warmed enemy like
of of the wretched and the poor, you know, or
of the or or of the work or or of
the working classes. You know, we can't just become to
be viewed as this kind of like permanent uh cadre
stripe breakers or something. So what he did was in
addition to that, in addition to this committee that you know
then as as I just mentioned from then of their
findings and the form of his broad based study to
the commons, he also drafted what came to be known
as the Pelion Principles. Okay, it sounds like the rules
one might have for like eating an orange or something,
but it's not. The nine pillion principles were want to
prevent crime and disorder as and this is key as
an alternative to repression by military force and as an
alternative to recourse to increasingly severe punishment. So basically, you know,
anything short of you know, some kind of seventeen eighty
nine situation, you don't just send in the red coats,
you know, to buttstroke and bayonet people. Nor do you
start you know, drawing and quartering people in the public
square like you know in the days of uh, you know,
medieval rebellions or whatever. You know, the people need to
view the police forces as working you know, like with them,
you know, towards accomplishing an equitable peace. You know. The
second Pelian principle was that the power of the police
to fulfill their functions and duties is absolutely dependent on
public approval of their existence, their actions and behavior in
the course of affecting custodial arrests. But also I can
approval of their mandate. You know, there's gotta be uh
that there's got there there There's gotta be some sort
of you know, direct uh connection between you know, these
constituencies and how they're represented and the commons and who
represents them, you know, and uh an ability of those
representatives like directly impact you know what what what you know,
what what priorities are as well as you know, as
well as the kind of brass tacks of of how
policing is conducted. You know, there's gotta be some kind
of formal accountability, you know, to recognize always the extent
to which cooperation of the public must be secured, and
how this diminishes and proportion in terms the necessity of
the use of physical force. And this is why traditionally,
like British police don't pay a heat. Okay, it's not
because the British are naive. It's not because they got
a culture that wasn't steeped in violence. Nor is it
like in old movies where you know there's some that
the British kind of don't know what the hell to
do if somebody shows up with a gun. Like look, Actually,
until recently firearms are pretty ubiquitous in the UK, and
until the later eighties you could procure a weapon as
a private person without a whole lot of hassle. The
British sending the army if they need to kill somebody, okay,
or if they need to like raid the hood and
do like a Bullson parade thing and like break heads.
The whole point of like the pelion on the police
is that they don't do that. You know, you don't
you know, you don't send you don't send a diplomatic
element and to negotiate with a gun on his hip. Okay,
that that's the ethos and this is key and that's
kind of like where America parted ways with the Pelion concept.
And what we'll get into like why that is probably
not till part two though, but number five of the
Pellion principles to seek and preserve public favor and partial
service to law, independence of policy, and without regard to
the justice or injustice of the substance of those laws,
but without pandering the public opinion. And uh, you know
in in the UK and historically you know how like
in Robinhood, like the big villain is the Sheriff of Nottingham.
Like a sheriff didn't used to be like a local policeman,
but he did basically have like the executive power of
the county with you know that that like concentrated in
his office. And there's a big concern that these rules
can't become politicized. That you're talking about, you know, the
ability to affect the studio, arrest and hail people into court,
you know, by way of like a permanent constabulary, like
there had to be some kind of accountability, but it
couldn't become just like another political office, you know, and
that's uh I still plated in the early days, the
UK did a pretty good job of this, even if
it's you know, something that's not that they can't really
be sustained, you know, and in the absence as we
saw with mister Trump, regardless of anybody feels about Trump,
the man, you know, you've got You've got a perfect
example in the SBI where it's like you have a
law enforcement agency with tremendous power whose mandate disappeared decades ago.
It's like, what what do they become? Like they've basically
become this they become this kind of like hatchet for
hire for entrenched political interests, and that's that's highly corrupting,
you know, aside from the fact that it's it's unconstable
that you know, the taxpayer is expected to you know,
continue to fund this apparatus, it's that you know, there
really is like a there there really is a deleterious
influence of a police organization that has become like especially
owing to you know, the the vaporation of it's mandate
has become really nothing more than a a a cipher
for you know, for political right, for political capture. The
six plion principle is to use physical force only when
the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to
be insufficient. And again too, I know it's a lot
of people and and like a fair amount of of
flat foots like follow my content. I just we'll just fine.
I was kind of surprised, excuse me to discover that.
But uh, I hear police a lot, you know, talk
about how like, well, you know, the British policing is
broke as fuck. They you know, they they're too averse
to force. And maybe they are. I'm not I'm not
like weighing in on that in absolute terms, but it's
something that precludes the kind of current totally dysfunctional kind
of culture of police thing like post Floyd, post the
political theater, you know, post political theater premised one on
the Floyd incident. It it just goes back to, you know,
literally an inception. And that's one of the reasons why
Operation Banner played out the way that it did, you know,
and we'll get into some of that. I don't I
don't want to turn this into the discussion about the
troubles because it's outside the scope. But there are aspects
that are relevant to the discussion. But you know, my
my point is people who view you know, particl I mean,
there's a goulings going on here, and I don't want
to I don't want to get into the topic here
now because I'm a versus the topic, although it's quite unpleasant,
but because it's outside the scope discussion of the the
grooming gangs and and and sexual assault of vulnerable people,
particularly young girls and kids by by these hostile like
alien elements. The reason why that's happening, oh, is to
negatively political factors of you know, the post Nuremberg era.
That that that doesn't owe to like the bridge police
being in you know, unreasonably averse to force or something.
But instances where there is on display a comparative reluctance
you know, to apply deadly force or to go in
heavy as people think of it in terms of police work,
you know, and in applying less lethal measures. That that
that's a different thing, and and it precedes you know,
the current era, and it's it's ideological shibles and things.
The last uh, the last few are kind of brass
tech stuff, the last few of the Peler principles of accountability.
But the key one is to uh is quote, to
maintain in all times of relationship with the public because
reality to the historical tradition that the police are the
public and the public are the police. Community policing that
phraseology as well as the ethos that underlies it as
a direct import from the United Kingdom, and it's essential.
Like regardless of kind of how you fall on the
matter of what pains good policing or what like, that's
not important. I mean it's important, but I mean for
purposes of this particular aspect of the discussion, there does
need to be like a communitarian aspect to the police.
Otherwise it's not workable. And honestly, that is that is
the future as the process that we talked about at
the top of the hour, you know, kinda emerges in
earnest and policing becomes truly a localized function once again.
That that that's that's essential to local sovereignty and and
essentially the maintenance of i've anything approaching law and order.
And I made the point again and again you're gonna
see moving forward, there's not gonna be I mean, I
realized I'm dating myself with this reference. But there's I
did not foresee like a Thomas Chitthham Civil War two
scenario that people would bang in nearly nineties. And I
Thinkam is a great guy, and for context, he was
writing about this stuff in the wake of things like
the La riots, where like some kind of open ross
and Kreeg is really like in the running, which is terrible.
I do not see that happening at scale. What is happening,
I mean, I mean it's already underway, is the kind
of secession of discrete communities, some which are deliberate communities,
some of which have just kind of ossified around common
cultural imperatives and identitarian signifiers, just like owing to accident
of you know, historical developments and sociological realities. But as
communities kind of become more and more self contained, you know,
like we've talked about before, there's there's gonna be even
greater and more layered complex interdependence of an economic and
financial nature. But politically people are seceding. You know, You're
gonna see communities that are like nine nine point nine
percent black that that are like nine nine point nive
percent white, you know that that are like the same
as for Raza or for like Eveian people or other.
And similarly, there's gonna be communities that owing either ideological
commitment or inability or unwillingness to establish you know, a
deliberate living pattern at relative scale. You know, there are
gonna be like mixed race communities that you know maybe
or maybe even you know, community such that are situated
in the afore mentioned according to the afrementioned criteria, like
going to something like vestigial attachment to American civic myths.
But regardless, like any policing element is gonna be a
reflection in that community. You're not gonna have like white
or Spanish guys going to police who live fifty miles away,
like commuting into some black code to polices and like
vice versa. Like that's done. That's dead. You know, it's
not the liabilities attendant to police work are just going
to kind of force those sorts of developments. But also
people aren't going to be willing to do the job
anymore from a position of communitarian alienage. Okay, But also again,
you know, like what was the what was the purpose
appeals model for policing, which in turn also had strong
relevance here, you know, again owing to the basic social
divisions which characterize both societies. What kind of derailed that
really was? Uh really, it was kind of like the
collapse of the city these as low guy as like
worker Barris. For the national economy, it was the Cold War.
It was uh, you know, the earliest uh birthpaygs of
globalism when they really when they literally were like two
systems competing for global hegemony. That's really what underlay the
war on drugs. Like I watched the film drug Store
Cowboy the other day, which is actually a really good film.
I really liked that movie. It's got Kelly Lynch, it's
got James Raemar, it's got Matt Dylan, it's got Weymouth
Burrows in this weird cameo. But it's kind of a
it's very much kind of a black comedy, but it's
also a serious treatment of of of of like narcotic addiction.
And it's also kind of like a you know, like
a crime movie. But Burrows plays this uh heroin and
morphine addicted priest. It's kind of like the grand old
man of this community of addicts that's perpetually ripping and running.
And he talks about the settings around nineteen seventy three,
and he's talking about, you know, I foresee a global
police state apparatus premised on the moral panic over use
in narcotics. And yeah, there was an aspect to that,
but the war on drugs is peak like Cold War,
I think, okay, and everything else aside. It totally and
completely changed policing. It changed the way, it changed what's
considered evidence. It changed the way we conceptualize a criminal offense.
It changed the way the police view the community that
they are charged with regulating, and vice versa. It changed
people's attitude towards violence and when the police have a
defensible mandate to apply it, I mean, it made the
role something other than what it had been there too,
for it was that much of a a categorical paradigm shift. Okay,
and the we're on drugs is coming to an end two,
which is really really interesting and very important, you know,
especially considering that agree to which you know, many aspects
of the public health crisis are being driven by addiction
to two, it's the obvious. But where uh, we're coming
up on the hours. We want to stop now. I'm
sorry to be a party pooper, but if I change
gears now, like I'll have to stop like in the
middle of a what I think is an important point,
and I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1: Then I will hold my questions until the next time
that we prefer.
Speaker 2: You can we can do them now if you want,
or we can wait.
Speaker 1: Well, let me let me just throw one in there. Yeah, man,
it seems it seems like in the United States policing
was taken over by the Irish. How did that happen?
Speaker 2: A few different way at least in Chicago. Bostin's a
bit different in Chicago. And to get into this, and
Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, which is a great book, like
even if even if you don't accept Sinclair's you know,
view on political economy and and and historical processes and things.
But when the Jungle opens up, there's still like a
vestigel like German American kind of civic elite in Chicago,
you know, but they're slipping. Basically, the first unions were
Irish immigrants, and the first mob here was Irish, you know,
the Copone gang like went to war basically with like
with with the Irish, you know that. I mean, yeah,
it was the north side of the South, so I
truly are different, and there wasn't some like rigid homogeneity
between the gangs. But it was basically like you know,
Capone's Italians like going to war with the Irish. Okay,
So the Irish were running the street and the Irish
and and you know, the Irish are running the the
labored unions. So by consequence, you know, you had to
give the you had to give the Irish the police
department if you wanted to be able to regulate both
of those things, you know. And then from there, like
the Irish here they were able to capture they were
able to capture the the synagapparatus for you know, like
seventy years. The Irish are I'm not I'm not like
transhing the Irish. I mean, depending on how you define
things like I am Irish, like I don't really I
think if you're not running cap like, you're not really
a petty. But my point is, I mean, I that's
one of the reason I make fun of them so much,
just because it's kind of like an in house rivalry.
But uh, I'm not banishing the Irish when I say this,
but they're they're a conspiratorial people, very tribal, very uh,
very in group focused, very prone to intrigues. Okay, and
the best way under the national economic schema. You know
that existed in earnest from the eighteen seventies until you know,
really until the Kennedy era. You know, they that that
was how you captured cloud, you know in the cities.
So that that's how I knew, uh the guy, I
don't want to name drop him because I I think
he's retired now. I mean, I think about this the
other days, like I'm getting so old, but I went
to law school and I'm getting buddies with the like
where I went to Los Cool. This guy named Corboy.
He's this big shot like king of Torchs type lawyer.
He founded this scholarship at John Marshall Chicago. Or like
any Chicago policeman or woman can like get a full
ride if they can like get into John Marshall. So
I got to know like some of these flat foots,
including the guy who went on to become a haunch
with a re turnover police. And I got to know
him pretty well because like he drive me home I
mean we we had class on the weekends. We were
both going to law school. At night. He was working,
as he was, he was working as a cop. Then
he worked the West Side, you know, I was I
was working a couple of different jobs, including this gym and Edgewater.
But so you go to class at night and then
on Saturday morning we had like lawyering skills. It was
basically legal writing. And uh, he'd meet me at the
Skokie Swifts l station and then we'd drive to the
Loop and then every class he'd drive me back it's
the Skogie Swift and then I'd go home to Evanston. So,
like I got to know him, went pretty well. And
he was the third generation cop. Like his brother was
a cop, his dad was a cop, his grandfather been
a cop, you know, and it's, uh, it was interesting.
And and he married a lady who was very nice.
And he'd met her at is U where a lot
of cops used to go to college. I don't know
what today, but there their police science program was kind
of a feeder system for Chicago bed. But he married
a lady and like her dad was a cop, you know.
But that point, being like a I got some insight. Uh,
because I'm like a normal shore guy, and so there
was plenty of Irish around like where I grew up.
But you know, they were they weren't the kinds of
guys who become policemen, you know, like uh, the other
kinds of guys who were like lawyers and stuff and
like accountants like their dads. I mean, you know, it's
the prosperous serious that's not some kind of like flex
and like my family because like my dad, like my
dad's like a fucking genius, but he's like he's like
this academic guy and basically like a game theory guy.
We were kind of like we were like the poor people.
I'm sure, and like you guys you did it is
this first guy I know, like helping me. You know,
he's like, but don't do it. Hees you won't make
any money. It's like you want your opinion. But yeah,
that was that was kind of a tangent man, sorry
with it, and I forgive my I finally were being sick, man,
but I still got some congestion. Forgive me. I realized
I don't sound well, So forgive me for.
Speaker 1: It, no problem, uh, and drop some plugs and uh
I'll end.
Speaker 2: This, You'll end it. All that struck me as funny
as sorry, I'm trying to be a cob. You can
always find me. The best place to find me is
on substick. I'm on hiatus from the pod until the
first week in February, but there's other good stuff that's
popping up there and I promise season via the Pod
is going to be lit and tremendous. It's real Thomas
seven seven seven dot substack dot com. My website is
kind of a one stop location for a bunch of
my content. It's number seven h O M A S
seven seven seven dot com. I'm on social media at
Capital r e A L Underscore number seven h O
M A S seven seven seven. I'm on Instagram, I
on Telegram. But yeah, uh, there's big things on the
horizon and I think I think the subs will very
much appreciate and approve of these things. And I want
to give ever since I'm want to thank everybody for
supporting the brand. People have really we We've gotten like
a glut of new subscribers lately. It's it's just great,
you know, and your support makes this possible. I cannot
thank you enough and in a week, I'm going to
the inauguration and a bunch of the fellas and girls
are gonna be out there. I'm gonna I'm gonna stream
from out there, and I'm gonna try and capture some
worthwhile footage and b roles. So there's had to look
forward to also. But that's that's what I got, all right, man.
Speaker 1: So the next time, thank you. M. S.