WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.840 --> 00:00:03.680 Hey, folks, no matter what you believe, religion is a 2 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:07.320 billion dollar industry, and your donations are funding it, from 3 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:11.480 megachurch pastors and private jets to televangelists begging for seed money. 4 00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:14.560 God never seems to have enough cash. And if your 5 00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:18.399 faith makes more than you know, just God's atm machine 6 00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:20.399 then and call in and tell us because the show 7 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:30.839 is starting right now. Hello everybody, and welcome to the 8 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.960 Atheist Experience. It's August second, twenty twenty six, and thanks 9 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:35.640 for joining us. 10 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:36.679 I'm objectively Dan. 11 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:39.759 I don't usually host this program, and I don't usually 12 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:43.079 host it with wonderful Seth Andrews, who's joining me today. Seth, 13 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:46.280 welcome as well too, to see you experience. 14 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:47.280 Good to see you again. 15 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:50.840 Yeah, it's good to be here, and I'm glad you 16 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:54.320 started with a compelling conversation. 17 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:56.799 About about how you know, dollar signs. 18 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.719 Seemed to be in so many eyes within especially the 19 00:00:59.799 --> 00:01:00.520 high your tier. 20 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.359 You know, you and I both know that when. 21 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:09.120 There is a myth that oh, pastors just preach because 22 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:11.400 they're trying to grift people, and that tells me you 23 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:14.799 don't know anything about every day Right Sunday go to 24 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:19.480 meet and pastors absolutely. The fair thing is to say 25 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:21.599 that they are on call twenty four to seven. Most 26 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:24.200 of them make a meager living. They do what they 27 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:27.359 do because they genuinely believe. Some have to have second 28 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:28.920 jobs to cover their bills. 29 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:29.280 Yep. 30 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:33.239 So there's this myth that everybody's Joel Ostein and Kreflo 31 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:38.599 Dollar and all the megachurches. But the fact is is 32 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:41.599 that a great many pastors do what they do at 33 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:45.439 great personal sacrifice because they genuinely believe. That's not who 34 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:48.959 we're talking about when we talk about the grifters and 35 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:51.879 the people who are you know, passing the plate because 36 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:54.680 God wants them to have a brand new Gulf Stream Jet. 37 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:58.760 Yes, what you and I said, You know, we both 38 00:01:58.879 --> 00:02:01.719 came from a Christian backround. We both know people who 39 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:04.799 are in it because they one hundred percent believe it. 40 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:08.319 They're doing what they think is right, and part of 41 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:12.039 running at church means paying for stuff, and they need money, 42 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:15.000 and that's that's the model that they choose. Whether or 43 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:16.719 not that's a good thing or not, that's up to 44 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:17.439 the individual. 45 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:20.159 I you know, we all have our own reservations about it. 46 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:20.719 For one thing. 47 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:22.680 You know, Hey, anything they take in they don't have 48 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:25.560 to report, right, So you better hope you trust the 49 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:27.639 person that you're giving money to because they don't have 50 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:31.800 any obligation to tell you what they're doing with that whatsoever. 51 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:34.520 And it happens all the time. These small time churches even, right, 52 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:36.840 will come up and say, hey, we're actually funding I 53 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:39.439 don't know, somebody's political campaign or something, right, and and 54 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:42.960 breaking stuff with that. So there's concerns to be had here. 55 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:45.120 But I would never say that anybody that's a believer 56 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:48.439 or anybody that's a pastor is absolutely only doing it 57 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:48.919 for the money. 58 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:50.560 Right, That's that's ridiculous, right. 59 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:54.159 But on the flip side, you have to understand that 60 00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:56.199 people actually do do it for the money. 61 00:02:56.199 --> 00:02:58.639 And I think a lot of people like don't want. 62 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.599 To believe that because there is this idea that while 63 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:03.560 you are in the faith, because you really believe it, 64 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:05.879 and that's just not true. I mean that's just been 65 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:08.840 shown time and time again by some of these people, right, 66 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:13.479 And if you don't recognize that, you are ignoring again 67 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:14.719 a billion dollar industry. 68 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:14.879 Right. 69 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:18.199 People do make money off this and will keep making 70 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:19.680 money off of this probably forever. 71 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:22.439 So you know, I'm not going alad you brought up that. 72 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:29.960 For many attack shelter and the opacity of many religious organizations. 73 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:33.520 Who are I mean if you holded the Johnson Amendment, 74 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:38.520 and this administration certainly doesn't are you know, we are 75 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:42.039 not supposed to see the bleeding of politics and religion. 76 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:48.120 But with parsonage exemptions, it is remarkable what you can 77 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:54.400 write off or hide or excuse as a ministry expense, 78 00:03:54.919 --> 00:04:01.280 a second home, that's a parsonage exemption, BMW vertible, a boat, 79 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:06.960 a vacation parsonage exemption. And the irs looks the other 80 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:10.319 way because if they go hard and say no, no, no, 81 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:13.120 you have to abide by all of the requisites of 82 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:15.120 the other five oh one c threes, then they can 83 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:18.399 be accused of being an enemy of religious liberty and 84 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:21.279 attacking Christianity and what is supposed to be a Christian nation. 85 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:26.279 But you know, I am I am shocked by how 86 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:29.360 the God who owns the cattle on a thousand hills, 87 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:32.519 according to the Bible, God owns everything, He owns the 88 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:35.720 land and everything that is upon it, and yet somehow 89 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:39.360 he's always in need. Yeah, he doesn't just make manner 90 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:42.759 from heaven fall in the form of dollar signs. He 91 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:45.279 doesn't just miracle into somebody's bank account. 92 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:47.839 He makes his. 93 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:53.360 Proxy servants, shepherds, beg or coin. 94 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:56.480 Yeah. Yeah, and it's a. 95 00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:59.360 Win win because hey, if you give me ten or 96 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.759 more percent of everything you make, God will bless you. 97 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:05.839 And that blessing could take any form and it might 98 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:08.000 not even happen until after you're dead. 99 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:12.199 That's a brilliant business model. Yeah, true, true, very true. 100 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:14.120 I have a specific story I want to talk to 101 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.879 you that blew my mind the first time I actually 102 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:20.480 heard it, which wasn't until I was an adult and 103 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:22.399 like really studying the Bible. But before I get to 104 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:25.639 that really quickly, I need to remind folks, in case 105 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:27.279 you're running, what the hell you're watching. This is the 106 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:29.839 Atheist Experience, which is a product of the Atheist Community 107 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:32.879 of Austin, a five o'h one c three nonprofit organization 108 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:36.199 that's dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, 109 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:38.439 and the separation of religion and government. And that means 110 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:41.079 you can give us tax free donations as many as 111 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.360 you want in fact, and know. 112 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:45.040 That it's not only for a good cause, but also 113 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:46.160 it helps you too. 114 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:48.839 But as you bread upon the water and then Shelby 115 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:53.160 returned unto you, pressed down, shacking together and running over right. 116 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:55.360 Exactly good stuff with that. 117 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:57.879 But just to our mind, folks, we are try streaming today, 118 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:00.319 so big shout out to our viewers on TikTok and 119 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.040 on YouTube mobile. If you are watching us on TikTok 120 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:04.800 and you'd like to talk to us, then you can 121 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:07.439 request to join and we'll bring you up on stage. 122 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:09.399 Just please make sure you are over the age of 123 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:13.319 eighteen before doing so. But we have open lines right now, 124 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.079 so we're ready to talk to you guys about you 125 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:17.360 know what you want to call it that It doesn't 126 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:19.519 have to be about how God wants all your money, 127 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:22.519 but that is what at least we are starting to 128 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:24.680 talk about here. The verse I wanted to talk to 129 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:28.639 you about, Seth was about Antonius and Sophira. You know 130 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:30.920 about this. This is in the Book of X. These 131 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:32.959 names bring a beal for you. You see a little 132 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:35.680 head nod there. I didn't know about this story. I 133 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:39.040 didn't really read the Book of X when I was younger. 134 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:41.199 I guess I don't know. It's kind of there and 135 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.279 there's some weird stories in there. I wish I've read 136 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:47.439 into it more. But I remember first very distinctly. Maybe 137 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:48.959 it wasn't my first time reading it, but the first 138 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:51.480 time I remember reading it when I was in college ministry. 139 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:54.839 The story is very interesting. This is in the Book 140 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:57.720 of x If you're not familiar with the Bible lore. Okay, 141 00:06:58.240 --> 00:06:59.839 that's after Jesus died. 142 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:00.279 Okay. 143 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:02.759 And so the apostles are and they're doing stuff, okay, 144 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:04.480 And these are like kind of some of their stories. 145 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:09.439 So there is these folks named Anonius and Sophira who 146 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:14.600 get killed, right, who are killed by the Holy Spirit 147 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:19.040 basically because they didn't give money to the church. 148 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:21.240 They withheld some stuff. Here's the averse here. 149 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:26.639 This is from Acts five, okay, Versus one through five. Here, 150 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:30.160 now a man named an Anonius, together with his wife Sephira, 151 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:33.279 also sold the piece of property with his wife's full knowledge. 152 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:35.639 He kept back part of the money for himself, but 153 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:38.079 brought the rest and put it at the apostles feet. 154 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:41.040 Then Peter said, Antonius, how is it that Satan has 155 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:43.279 filled your heart? That you have lied to the Holy 156 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:45.680 Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money 157 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.240 you ever see for the land. When Ananias heard this, 158 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:52.720 he fell down and died, and then Sophia came in 159 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:56.959 and she fell down at his feet and died. So 160 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:00.920 the implication being that they have held some money. I 161 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:03.959 don't know what disagreement was. Maybe they should have given 162 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:05.639 it and they didn't. That's what the story makes it 163 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.920 sound like. But straight up they get capped, seth, They 164 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:11.800 just die right there. 165 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:13.000 What the heck? 166 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:16.639 Well, you know, the Bible has a very multiple personalities 167 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:22.639 on the issue of multiple personalities on the issue of money. 168 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:27.160 So you know, the prosperity preachers say that God wants. 169 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:28.800 You prosperous, and one. 170 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:30.959 Of the ways to become prosperous is to continue to 171 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:34.600 give to the church monetarily. Why would it benefit you 172 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:37.639 to have money on this earth? You will be rewarded, 173 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:41.759 if not monetarily, but also spiritually crowns and you know, 174 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:44.919 the jewels in your crown and heaven, a bigger mansion, etc. 175 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:46.799 And then there are others who say, no, no, it 176 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.519 is a monetary thing. So if you give thousands of dollars, 177 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:54.159 eventually you will become a millionaire. But you know, the 178 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.000 Bible says the love of money is the root of 179 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:59.919 all evil, and it is harder for a rich man 180 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:02.159 it's easier for a camel to go through the eye 181 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:03.799 of a needle than the rich man to enter the 182 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:06.639 king heaven. By the way, I believe that reference is 183 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.360 traditionally meant that the eye of a needle was an 184 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:11.240 entrance into the city. 185 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:12.720 Yeah, that's an interpretation. 186 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:15.559 Yeah, A lot of people are like, well, it's impossible 187 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:17.440 for a camel to go through it, And I understand. 188 00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:21.200 I love that saying it was impossible for a rich person, 189 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:24.159 but the context of that is important. 190 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:27.480 I so that's a funny one set because I don't 191 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:30.240 know what's true on that or not. From what I understand, 192 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:33.240 that's one interpretation of it that there is there there 193 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:35.840 is this gate thing. I'd like to think that God 194 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:38.759 was one hundred percent serious and was like, no, you. 195 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:40.120 Rich people cannot go. 196 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:44.320 And then they like when rich don't became a thing, it's. 197 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:46.639 Like, well, you know, you can go. It's just it's 198 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:49.600 really hard though you ever go back. 199 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:53.039 I'm a sadist, Actually no, I wouldn't. I'm if I 200 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:55.159 would be a sadist if I played it on the air. 201 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:57.360 I'm a masochist because I do it to myself. 202 00:09:57.480 --> 00:09:58.039 So true. 203 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:01.039 Yes, I being a child of the eighties, lived through 204 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:04.440 the Gym and Tammy fay Baker thing with Heritage USA. 205 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:08.519 The televangelist Robert Tilton. Robert Tilton. If you have not 206 00:10:08.679 --> 00:10:12.799 seen the YouTube clips of Robert Tilton, the Dallas ted televangelist, 207 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:16.960 he would he would make all these wild promises and 208 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:19.759 then he would beg people to send them money sometimes 209 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:22.600 I think it was for holy water prayer clause, and 210 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:24.879 people would send in obscene amounts of money and made 211 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:29.039 him wealthy. And an investigative team from a news organization 212 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:33.080 went around his ministry and they found a dumpster behind 213 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:35.919 the building and it was full of all of the 214 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:38.120 crap that he said he was going to be like 215 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:40.440 sending out to people. It was just a total scam. 216 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:42.720 But he's yeah, okay, yeah, I do know about this. 217 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:45.919 And when he would speak, he would be like, yes, yes, 218 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:49.279 you know, and he would have and he hold these expressions. Well, 219 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:53.840 somebody who shares, apparently my base sense of humor went 220 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:57.120 back through dozens of hours of sermons and with every 221 00:10:57.159 --> 00:10:59.679 pause they just inserted flatulence noises. 222 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:01.240 And so if you go to. 223 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:05.159 YouTube and you type in Robert Tilton flatulence video, you 224 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:07.960 will be amused on the order of hours. And because 225 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:11.759 I'm apparently eleven years old, wildly. 226 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:13.720 That sounds like a classic edit. 227 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:18.399 That sounds like a mid two thousand YouTube like clip edit. 228 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:21.960 Classic. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's Jan Crouch at TBN. 229 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.360 Yeah, they're out there with the silver hair and they're 230 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:31.159 they're on this unbelievably gold gilded, gaudy television studio and 231 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.039 they're they're talking. They just sit around and ask people 232 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:35.639 to send them money. And then you find out that 233 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:39.559 Jan Crouch out one hundred thousand dollars coach RV just yeah, 234 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:40.679 her two dogs. 235 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.399 And you know, we do have that today. 236 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:47.320 It's called streaming, right, And you know you don't have 237 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:48.679 to be The great thing is you don't have to 238 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:50.639 be a silver haired white guy to do it anymore. 239 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:52.799 You can come from any background as long as you 240 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:55.480 have an iPhone with an Internet connection, then also do that. 241 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:58.720 And I joke, but like obviously like streamers deliver I 242 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:00.879 think a different kind of I'm ice dream, right, So 243 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:03.799 it's like it's a different kind of content that's being delivered. 244 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:07.480 It's not just a promise of like being healed or whatever. Right, 245 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:09.720 But there are ones that do that too. I mean 246 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:13.360 they also exist. So I'm just saying being scammed is 247 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:14.480 more accessible than ever. 248 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.519 Right, So, you know, the beauty of the Internet is 249 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:18.879 that everyone has a voice. 250 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:23.240 Yeah, problem with the Internet is that everybody has a voice. Voice. 251 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:25.919 So being you buy into the prosperity thing when you're 252 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.000 a believer, like if you bless the kingdom, you will 253 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:31.759 be blessed tenfold, pressed down, shaken together, running over all 254 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:33.320 that stuff. Did you buy into that? No? 255 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:35.879 Never, my thankfully my parents. I never. 256 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:38.440 I grew up first twelve years of my life in 257 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:43.360 a Methodist church, and you know, conservative Methodist, but still Methodist, right, 258 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.360 So it's like I I was the probably the anathema 259 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:51.159 to my Baptist neighbors in Waco, Texas, but still enough 260 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:53.919 to the point where it was like, honestly, my upbringing 261 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.919 probably even though it was fairly conservative, probably more liberal 262 00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:57.679 than yours. 263 00:12:57.399 --> 00:12:59.240 And a lot of other people in our space. 264 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:02.000 I think a lot of people get into our space 265 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:06.120 because obviously they grew up in extremely problematic beliefs and backgrounds. 266 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.559 I was kind of just seeing that sort of around me, 267 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:11.360 but not as much in my church itself, right, I mean, 268 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:14.320 you know, growing up in Waco, you know there's a 269 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:16.759 little bit of history there, so you know, it was 270 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:19.159 definitely out there. But yeah, thankfully I was never too 271 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:20.440 much in the prosperity stuff. 272 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:22.279 How about you, were you to your family? You know, 273 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:25.399 we didn't focus a lot on money. 274 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:29.039 There was I think an ad We came from a 275 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:33.080 family of Jesus as a republican, free market capitalist. 276 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:34.600 Right, Yeah, that was my take. Yeah. 277 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:38.200 Yeah, you know, God, God wants small government and he 278 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:40.600 wants corporations to be able to do whatever they want 279 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.759 because of rugged American individualism hashta right, right, and if. 280 00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:46.440 You can go out, that's the American dream, right. 281 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.080 The American dream was not necessarily to go out and 282 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:54.120 find who you were and what you wanted to be 283 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:57.519 and have a life filled with love and purpose and 284 00:13:57.639 --> 00:13:59.559 satisfaction and fulfillment. 285 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:00.399 Yeah. 286 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:02.720 The people that who they we always spoke about to 287 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.919 achieve the American dream were the people who were making 288 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:07.879 at least seven, if not eight figures, yeah, or you know, 289 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.759 sort of famous household names, which tells you how embedded 290 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:17.480 some of this is into the culture. Yeah, but we 291 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:21.480 were also warned, you know, don't love money. Don't love money. 292 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:23.799 Money is good. Money is a resource. Money can help 293 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:28.840 but don't become infatuated. And you know, I have no 294 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.759 problem with somebody who wants to be prosperous, somebody who 295 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:33.879 works hard, takes risks, gets lucky. 296 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.159 I mean whatever. I don't have that kind of jealousy. 297 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:39.960 Now when we get into wealth hoarding in a world 298 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.639 with this much suffering, and so when you see the 299 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:47.200 Jolo Steins, right, yeah, mega pastor he is home is 300 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.000 a ten million dollar mansion. It's probably worth more in 301 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:53.200 the day's economy, it's probably double that fifty to seventy 302 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:55.919 million dollar net worth. The guy lives like a freaking 303 00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:00.519 rock star in a place with a wor with this 304 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:03.879 much suffering hell in his own state. You think of 305 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:06.600 all of the problems that could be alleviated, all the 306 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.840 hungry mouths, all the houses that you could build. And 307 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:12.600 I take that beyond the mega pastors. I am writing 308 00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:16.240 a piece now about the oligarchs, you know, the the 309 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.120 billionaires that we have that so many people admire. 310 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:22.600 Ah billionaires, that's the dream. 311 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:25.639 And I think, okay, well, for a five hundred million 312 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:30.120 dollar yacht that's being sailed around by a particular oligarch 313 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:34.399 in question, Yeah, who ons Amazon? I'm like Okay, well, 314 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:36.639 let's do the math. How many houses could that build, 315 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:39.639 how many shelters, how many meals would that how much 316 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:41.159 cancer research could we fund? 317 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:45.159 How much suffering could we alleviate? Yeah, and you. 318 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.600 Know, that's that's a problem, and it's a serious problem 319 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:53.279 in the prosperity gospel model, especially in the larger mega 320 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:57.320 churches within the Christian faith. It's really problematic. Yeah, I agree, 321 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.000 I agree. I like to think that my generation. 322 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:03.679 Doesn't give as much to the prosperity thing because we 323 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:06.080 don't have as much to give, right, But you know, 324 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:08.320 economic circumstances, you. 325 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:09.080 Know what I mean. 326 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:13.840 I think the thirty five and unders are really disenfranchised. 327 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:14.639 They're disconnected. 328 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:20.120 I don't think organized religion really appeals as much to you. 329 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:22.919 I mean, when I say your generation, I feel like Methuselah. 330 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:27.240 I'm like bank when I was Yeah. Yeah, no, it's true. 331 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:29.440 There's a lot of reasons. Internet's a big one. 332 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:29.759 You know. 333 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.840 We were definitely one of the most disconnected generations ever. 334 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.639 I think I think people that do have local communities 335 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:39.000 probably do it. You go to church a lot of 336 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.720 times because you have to, because it's your only social 337 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.039 network in your area. So a lot of people that 338 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:47.440 like were atheists on the lowdown, like myself for a while, 339 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:49.480 still went to church because that was your friend group 340 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:50.600 and that's what you kind of have to do. 341 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:52.919 And when in the Internet you don't have to do that. 342 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:55.919 You can find people on a discord somewhere that likes 343 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:57.879 the same I don't know, dungeons and dragons thing that 344 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:00.000 you're into or whatever. Right, So it's so there's there's 345 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:04.119 there's more options, but also you know, obviously less options 346 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:05.440 for physical spaces as well. 347 00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:08.279 It's a big conundrum. But we can rant and rave about. 348 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:10.599 I mean, I'd love to go on an anti capitalist 349 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:15.000 sort of Marxist like analysis with you, Seth. But you know, 350 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.759 this is the atheist experience, and this is a call 351 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:19.559 in show, and we have folks that do want to 352 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:21.279 talk to us. You want to talk to some people. 353 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:23.400 Oh yeah, I'm in. Just tell me what to do 354 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:26.319 and well let's do it. I'll bring them in. Right now. 355 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:31.640 We have someone who claims to be the perhaps infamous 356 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:35.640 Darth Dawkins who wants to talk to us. Darth Dawkins, 357 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:38.119 you are live on Atheists Experience. 358 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:41.599 Thank you. 359 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:45.480 Your name is certainly known in spaces and not always 360 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.880 well respected, at least from the space as I come from. 361 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:49.720 That's for sure. 362 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:56.519 Okay, constitute Well, well, wait a minute, I don't know 363 00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:58.799 if it's on our end or what, but we you 364 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:00.000 are super muffled right now. 365 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.000 If there's any way you could help us with that, 366 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:03.599 that'd be great. And I know the crew is looking 367 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:04.039 on our side. 368 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:05.200 Okay, I'm in an outdoor. 369 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:08.799 Okay, instantly, better, thank you? Go ahead? 370 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:13.440 Okay, all right, So your atheism constitutes the denial of 371 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:16.279 God's existence or a mere lack of belief. 372 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:20.039 I am an atheist. I do not believe. Now, there 373 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:24.680 are specific gods that I know do not and cannot exist. 374 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.359 Christian God's the easy one, right, we can reverse engineer 375 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:28.799 that and know. 376 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:33.839 But is there a God out there somewhere? I don't 377 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.640 believe it. I do know that. 378 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:40.519 There is not an omni God, an omni benevolent God, 379 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:42.440 an involved personal God. 380 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:43.880 I know that doesn't exist. 381 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:50.319 Could he anything about God? If God doesn't reveal himselves. 382 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:54.839 If a God exists but chooses not to reveal himself, 383 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.359 why do I care? God obviously doesn't care enough to 384 00:18:58.359 --> 00:18:59.200 reveal himself. 385 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:00.400 Well, that's we know. 386 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:01.799 That's not any benevolence. 387 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.519 I'm confuse with the premise was saying revealing themselves to 388 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:07.880 us personally, because. 389 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:09.000 Like I guess you could know. 390 00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:11.440 But God, if they reveal themselves to somebody else, that 391 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:16.319 somebody else talks about that experience somewhere, right, So that's 392 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:17.640 that's one kind of No, we. 393 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:19.680 Lose a connection here? Can you hear us? 394 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:20.079 Hello? 395 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:21.559 Hello? 396 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:23.920 Well maybe we're having some connection. 397 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:27.359 We'll put we'll put you back in our call Q 398 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:30.240 while we get that figured out because we can hear you. 399 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:31.480 But I guess I wasn't sure. 400 00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:35.039 I mean, do you know what? God does not exist? 401 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:36.640 I was the vibe I was hearing. 402 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:37.599 Yeah? 403 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.920 Or do you simply not believe? And that's a reductive question. 404 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:44.119 You got to talk about what do you mean by 405 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:45.960 God like a deistic watchmaker? 406 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:46.319 First? 407 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:48.920 Cause deity does it? Is it omnipotent that that have 408 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:53.000 limited powers? Is it eternal? Is it temporary? Uh? Or 409 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:55.440 is it a specific god from a certain religion, a 410 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.519 god with a proper name, you know? And of course 411 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.160 the Internet and these types of conversations often you know, 412 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.640 don't love nuance, but nuance is what is required. But 413 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:09.000 if is there a deity out there somewhere. I'm just 414 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:11.319 going to say I don't buy it. I am an atheist. 415 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:12.920 I do not believe that's. 416 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:14.920 A fair way to put it. I would do a 417 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.799 similar sort of answer. I think if I were asked 418 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:19.839 to me, he asked you, Spacidomy Seth, because you know 419 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:21.000 you're the man. 420 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:22.359 He wants to know it for you. He don't care 421 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:22.720 about me. 422 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.160 But if I were to answer an he were to 423 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:27.519 ask me, I would say something, yeah, like I don't 424 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.160 believe in it God from what I understand God to be, 425 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:32.400 if there is a God. I like to use the 426 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.640 term igtheist because there are some people that will say, well, 427 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:38.359 God is just nature. Okay, Well, if God's nature, I 428 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:41.079 believe nature is a thing. So I guess that means 429 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.559 I believe in God. But that's not what many people 430 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:46.240 say when they talk about God. God is whatever it 431 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:50.200 means to that individual at any given time in culture, right, 432 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:53.559 So it depends it depends on the God. But most 433 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.720 God claims no, I don't. I don't find them to 434 00:20:55.759 --> 00:21:00.400 be valid or local or real in any meaningful sense. 435 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.839 Did you notice Darthur used the masculine pronouns so obvious. 436 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.599 True Party apparently assume that God is a hymn, So 437 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.799 that's true. That's one of those things where I'm like, well, okay, well, 438 00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:12.039 how is that known? 439 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:13.279 How do you know that God. 440 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.440 Is not an it or a genderless thing or another 441 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:18.440 creature or you know, how do you know it's not 442 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:21.640 some sort of a centaur, you know, with god like powers. 443 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:24.599 So I think there's a legitimate case you can make. 444 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:29.720 Other the like serious theologians, as serious as theology can be, 445 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.039 have made the case that God is not a masculine being. 446 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:36.599 You know, that he is what some might call non binary, right, 447 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.559 which is which is an interesting thing to think about. 448 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:40.720 And of course you know, someone like me would use 449 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:43.400 it to piss somebody off, but you know, like I would, 450 00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:45.160 You know I would, I would say, yeah, I don't know, 451 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:47.599 what does that even mean to have a gender construct 452 00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:50.920 for a God that supposedly doesn't you don't have a 453 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:51.960 gender identity. 454 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:54.039 I've got to jump in. I know you're going to 455 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:55.799 have a call, but I I just got to tell 456 00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:55.960 you this. 457 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:03.359 So, okay, recently about white Jesus and how cultures throughout 458 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:07.960 the last two thousand years there Christ has largely looked 459 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:08.559 like them. 460 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:11.400 So we talked about how Jesus. I mean, the Jesus 461 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:13.480 that we see in white. 462 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:17.920 Bread, corn fed Protestant Heartland America is not a brown 463 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:24.039 skinned Middle Eastern dude. It's largely a blue eyed, kind 464 00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:26.240 of a sandy blonde haired white guy. 465 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:29.000 Well, what's that about? True? And so we talked about 466 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:30.400 how during the time of the. 467 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:34.119 Caesars, Jesus was represented as kind of this pure face, 468 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:36.880 looking like the Caesars, and when the Caesars became more bearded, 469 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:39.559 we saw that reflected. There's an Asian Jesus, there's a 470 00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:41.920 Native American Jesus, there's a Muslim Jesus. 471 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:43.480 There's an African American Jesus. 472 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:45.880 And so I was saying, all right, fine, so let's 473 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.640 take one of the portraits of an African American Jesus, 474 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.079 black skin, and he's got the crown of thorns, and 475 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:53.759 he's hanging on the cross, or he's giving the sermon 476 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.599 on the mount or and there's a ton of art 477 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:58.279 that we see hanging in African American churches and homes 478 00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.119 and beyond, what about is make that? And I walk 479 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:05.000 into the first Baptist church or whatever in my hometown 480 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:08.799 of Tulsa, Oklahoma, how quickly would I get my ass kicked. 481 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:11.240 Yeah, because. 482 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:16.000 Humans have made gods in their own image. The ones 483 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:18.680 that validate us, the ones that validate what our biases 484 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.720 and opinions, are the ones that look and sound and 485 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:23.880 feel like what we think they should look and sound 486 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:26.880 and feel in so many cases, and I find that interesting. 487 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:28.720 Now A lot of people try to escape by that 488 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.000 by saying, well, my God's a personal god, so he 489 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:34.079 appears to me in a way that I can relate to. 490 00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:37.640 Yeah, But I think that's a surface excuse. 491 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:39.960 I think when it comes down to it, if it's 492 00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:42.759 the same, it's the same thing when Megan Kelly says 493 00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:47.960 Santa Claus is just white because someone had a black 494 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:48.559 Santa Claus. 495 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:57.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, what is it? 496 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.640 Non white Santa? Yeah? From you? 497 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:03.680 How does that cheat your Santa experience? 498 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:04.039 You know? 499 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:05.000 Yeah. 500 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.079 There's a movie and I remember this. This is one 501 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:08.720 of the last Christian movies I watch when I was 502 00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:10.039 a Christian. I don't know if you remember this. It's 503 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:11.559 called The Shack. I think it's what it's called. 504 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:11.880 Yeah. 505 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:15.480 Remember, I got in trouble because they depicted God in 506 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:19.039 three persons, and they Jesus was a Middle Eastern guy, 507 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:23.160 God was a black woman and the Holy Spirit was 508 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.279 an Asian woman, and people. 509 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:28.000 Really did not like those appearances. 510 00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:30.640 I guess which like, first of all, interesting choices, but 511 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:33.680 second of all, also who cares? Like I don't know, 512 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:38.160 like why does it matter if very strange, very strange, like. 513 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:41.519 Elon must say, I must make an AI Odyssey film 514 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:43.319 that is historically Yeah. 515 00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:45.799 That man, Wait a minute, I'm sorry. A thing that 516 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:47.799 was who was born of an egg? Was it? 517 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:49.680 A thing that was born out of an egg? And 518 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.079 this is cyclops? I mean, he's going to make a 519 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:54.880 film that is so white you can see it from space. 520 00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:57.559 You know, I'm You're not wrong, dude. 521 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.559 Man for a guy, you think billionaires will be too busy, 522 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:02.200 But I guess he's got enough time to run a 523 00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:04.640 dunk In companies and make a movie full of white 524 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:05.599 people at the same time. 525 00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:06.759 I don't know who who knows? 526 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:09.599 Anyway, Okay, I think we fixed our issues with Darth Dawkins. 527 00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:11.119 Actually so, I think we want to try to bring 528 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:13.480 it back on. Let's see if we can do that, 529 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:19.880 right now, Darth Dawkins, Yeah, I can here you Okay, great, 530 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:21.519 thanks so much. You're back on XP. 531 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:24.680 I heard I heard the beat twice. You guys muted 532 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:25.359 me twice. 533 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:28.839 Okay, I definitely did not mute you. But but okay. 534 00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:29.400 And explain to me. 535 00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:32.279 Explain to me why I heard the beat twice disconnecting 536 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:32.759 my micro. 537 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:34.599 I don't know, man, you seem to be having issues. 538 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:36.720 Why are you accusing me right off the bat? I 539 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:38.640 definitely didn't using you. 540 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:40.640 All I know is I heard the beat twice where 541 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:41.880 you shut my microphone off. 542 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:45.839 These these beams sound quite traumatic for you. 543 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:48.200 I I would like, I'm gonna say here, I am 544 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:49.799 going to mute you right now. Okay, here's what it 545 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:50.200 sounds like. 546 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:50.920 I mute you. 547 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.039 So I'm muting you right now because one, you're coming into. 548 00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:55.480 This way too hot. 549 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.519 Let's slow your role for a second and let's try 550 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:01.920 to have a common versation. I do not want to 551 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:05.160 start off with this energy. Okay, So you're argued. Now, 552 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:06.880 now I'm going to unmute you. You can tell me 553 00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:08.480 if it sounds the same or not. But I didn't 554 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:10.319 mute you before, regardless, So there you go. 555 00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:13.039 Okay, Well somebody did, Okay. 556 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:14.440 So I know nobody did. 557 00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:17.200 Actually, I think maybe you're having issues with your phone 558 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:17.880 because you had some. 559 00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:21.759 Issues because I heard, I heard your beat book going. 560 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:23.400 Do you want to argue about this? 561 00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:26.640 Or do you want to talk to an argument? 562 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:28.599 Why would we want to do it? I want to 563 00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:32.119 challenge at the beginning, we didn't even get anywhere yet 564 00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:33.200 where we mute you? 565 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:35.960 Because what's on your mind? What's your commenter question? 566 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:38.359 I would like to challenge. 567 00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:41.200 Would you're going to see a set position about the 568 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:44.960 partial or denial of God's existence and you say. 569 00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:47.119 You know that there's no benevolent God? 570 00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:50.400 How would you know what a benevolent God would or 571 00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:52.039 would not allow within. 572 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:54.279 His point to span out the ademptive history? 573 00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:55.079 How would you know that? 574 00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:58.920 How would I not know involvement or lack of harm 575 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.480 or help? How would I not know the difference between 576 00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:05.960 absence in a world of suffering and an intervention? 577 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:07.200 I don't understand that. 578 00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:09.200 Now I'll repeat the question. 579 00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:12.519 How would you know what a benevolent God would or 580 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:13.680 would not allow in. 581 00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:15.640 The short span of redemptive history? 582 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:16.400 How would you know that? 583 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:17.160 Well? 584 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:20.319 I think that's a convenient sort of a What you're 585 00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:23.920 saying is I the insect could not possibly understand the 586 00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:29.720 grand scale design by a godlike intelligence, which may in 587 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:33.000 fact be benevolent in the macro. But because I only 588 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:35.119 see right in front of my face and can't see 589 00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.799 the big picture, who am I to say benevolence is 590 00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:39.440 not happening? 591 00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:40.319 Is that what you're saying. 592 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:42.920 No, that's not an answer to my question. 593 00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:47.000 I'm asking you how you could I'm trying to what 594 00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:47.839 your question is. 595 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:49.599 It's a very simple question. 596 00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:53.440 How would you possibly know what a maximue benevolent God 597 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:56.279 would do or not do within. 598 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.319 A short span of redemptive history. 599 00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:59.079 How would you know that? 600 00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:02.000 I think it's I don't. I don't think this is 601 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:05.240 a tough one. I think to look around and see 602 00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:08.839 twenty five thousand people starving to death a day in 603 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:12.880 the eyes of a deity and there's no divine intervention, 604 00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:16.680 I could say that is the antithesis of benevolence. When 605 00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:19.720 I see a child rate like that is the antithesis 606 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:23.400 of benevolence. I look at I look at natural disasters, 607 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.839 I look at crap design all around this, the things 608 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.960 that are now formed, and I think, no, no, no, at 609 00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:34.680 benevolence would mean that answer, God would use god like 610 00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:39.039 powers to intervene and decrease suffering and increase flourishing. And 611 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:41.720 the absence of that tells me that if there is 612 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:43.039 a deity. 613 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:42.880 It is not. 614 00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:46.200 That's not an answer to the question I ask it is. 615 00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:50.079 You know, it's very gooding me is well, well let 616 00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:52.680 me let me let me give a shirt rebuttal okay, 617 00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:55.839 so they're just talking over me. Now, I understand that 618 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:59.720 you What you did was you reiterated that a benevolent 619 00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:02.200 god I wouldn't allow the death and suffering to the 620 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.880 extent that that we see it. All you did was 621 00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:06.599 reiterate the same part again. 622 00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:07.119 I'm going to. 623 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:10.759 Stop you because I understand the question you're saying, what 624 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:11.880 is my barometer? 625 00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:14.079 How would I measure benevolence? 626 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:16.559 Can I finish with that? Being interrupted? 627 00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:20.720 Well, I mean that's really me slow your role a 628 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:23.680 little bit, you know. I really think from maybe a 629 00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:28.079 vicodin and some Yanni music might benefit you. Yeah, to 630 00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:33.119 finish this call talk over me, but to understand the 631 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:34.960 concept of help and harm. 632 00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:37.240 As all right, Garth, I have been a mutue. Now 633 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:39.759 so that Seth can finish what he's saying. Okay, please 634 00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:40.480 Seth go ahead. 635 00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:43.680 Well, there's there are a number of things at angles 636 00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:45.240 that he may be going at but I think he's 637 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:49.480 trying to obfuscate what is really an easy uh or 638 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:53.640 an easy concept to understand. How do evolve human beings 639 00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:59.599 operating in a godfree context no benevolence, or how can 640 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:02.240 we know that benevolence was not eventually going to be 641 00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:06.359 a materialized or manifest or revealed in some way Because 642 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:07.720 our perspective is so. 643 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:10.039 Small, How would I know that or how would I 644 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:12.920 measure that? Yes, but I think that's what he's saying too. 645 00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:15.720 You were trying to clarify that. He didn't offer clarification, 646 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:17.160 But I think that's what he's saying. 647 00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:20.559 Yes, Yeah, he literally popped an O ring, And you know, 648 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:23.880 I find that it's not a good faith approach to 649 00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:27.440 the conversation. I don't think I'm being unfair when I say, 650 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:32.400 to understand what suffering is, understand what flourishing is, and 651 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:35.960 then to expect an omni good, a benevolent deity to 652 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:40.559 be alleviating alleviating suffering and increasing flourishing, and the absence 653 00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:42.359 of that tells me there is no benevolent God. I 654 00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:45.039 don't think that's an unreasonable position, and I don't think 655 00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:48.880 my barometer is invalid simply because I can't see all 656 00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:50.880 of the universe throughout space time. 657 00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:54.279 Yeah, and even if okay, maybe there's some big macro 658 00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:56.799 plan that doesn't stop you from seeing stuff on the 659 00:30:56.839 --> 00:30:59.000 micro like you said, like you're already seeing it, And 660 00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:02.319 I would argue that's still bad. Like just because maybe 661 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:05.400 there's some bigger plan or whatever that means, that doesn't 662 00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:08.359 mean that things happening on the small scale aren't bad. 663 00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:10.960 So yeah, it's it's it's a weird Sorry. 664 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:16.160 Tell me what benevolence would in any context require a 665 00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:17.160 school shooting. 666 00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:19.880 Yeah, yeah, I would love to know that too. I 667 00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:21.799 would love to know. But anyway, I'm going to unmute 668 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:24.920 Darth now, so maybe we can, maybe we can this conversation. 669 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:25.319 Let's see. 670 00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:28.519 Okay, you're unmuted dark On't again. You're using your abusive 671 00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:32.079 tactics of beuting me. Did not answer my question. I'd 672 00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:33.680 like to look about being interrupted. 673 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:35.240 It's not abusive. 674 00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:40.000 It's trying to have a conversation. Man, we were not conversating. 675 00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:44.160 If everybody's talking mutating, So I have to have a hierarchy, 676 00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:45.440 an order of things. 677 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.720 Surely you can undertuly understand that. But you muted me 678 00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:51.519 abusively again, Now, did not answer, it's. 679 00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:52.359 Really not abusively. 680 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:54.759 But okay, go ahead, can you stop interrupting it? 681 00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:54.960 Over? 682 00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:55.759 No, I will. 683 00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:58.000 I will interrupt you as much as I want. I'm 684 00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:01.599 the host of the show. What I'm like, you don't 685 00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:02.599 know my benevolence. 686 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:04.960 You're looking at things on the smaller scale right now, 687 00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:05.720 Darth Tawkins. 688 00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:08.519 But really I'm trying to do on a bigger level 689 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:09.000 of the guy. 690 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:13.200 Dan's streaming, his weaving a vowsand continents in a specific 691 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.920 way are actually beyond our ability to see in the 692 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:19.920 short term, and we need to know or believe, except 693 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.000 in the larger scale, that this is true omni benevolence, 694 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:23.960 and we should a bind that. 695 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:30.640 Yeah, go ahead, Darth So, Hello you there all almost second. 696 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.519 Yeah, So, what you guys are doing is you're being 697 00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:36.720 abusive and you're not letting me ask a question in. 698 00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:37.559 The form of a rebuttal. 699 00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:42.240 Now, seth So simply reiterated his plan of the incompatibility 700 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:46.920 with a maximumly benevolent god with death and suffering. He 701 00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:49.480 just simply reiterated he didn't tell me how he could 702 00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:53.880 know that it would be incompatible with a maximuly benevolent 703 00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.680 god who would have a plan of redemptive history where 704 00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:01.799 he temporarily allows death and suffering in order to fill 705 00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:03.119 a plan of redemptive history. 706 00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:06.960 So you didn't tell me no if I made Dan 707 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:10.519 hang on, go ahead, Darth Leek, tell me how a 708 00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:15.279 school shooting and murdered children fits into God's redemptive plan. 709 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:17.000 To my questions, Seth, are you going to answer? 710 00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:17.240 No? 711 00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.240 No, I want to know how does the school shooting, 712 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.759 how does the rape of the child, How does people 713 00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:26.960 drowning in a single day from a tsunami fit into 714 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.640 a benevolent redemptive plan? 715 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:29.480 My question? 716 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:31.119 You're dodging my question. 717 00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:36.240 No, I'm actually I'm asking you to tell me. 718 00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:37.640 Dodging my question. 719 00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:41.319 You are how many how many dead children does it 720 00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.079 take before we can say it's not benevolence? 721 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:45.200 Is no? 722 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:48.000 So you apparently are so vend up with the fact 723 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.559 that you didn't get to answer your His answer in 724 00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.240 the form of rebuttal, he's answering you are question in 725 00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:56.119 the form of a question, which is exactly what you did. 726 00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:57.680 So I don't know why you have an issue. 727 00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:00.759 Question so that you guys are dodging my question to Seth, 728 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:05.119 how could you know what plan a benevolent God would 729 00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:07.279 temporarily allow How could you know that? 730 00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:10.119 Well, you like to use the word maximally, and you 731 00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:12.599 skipped it this time. But I'll say it doesn't even 732 00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:15.599 have to be mad. I'll say marginally. I'll see, even vaguely, 733 00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:19.559 we know that an even vaguely benevolent god cannot exist 734 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:21.559 with this much suffering in the world. 735 00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:24.320 It doesn't make sense, Doroth, how do we know the 736 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:27.119 difference if there is a god, if you plan for 737 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:28.760 maximal suffer question. 738 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:31.880 I'm going to reiterate again. You did not answer the question. 739 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:36.599 You just simply reiterated the compatibility with the suffering. Well, 740 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:40.400 why don't you be fair to me? Okay, so I'm 741 00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:43.880 not being abusive here or behaving badly. I'm pointing out 742 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.639 that that's questionable. 743 00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:47.079 The excitation needed now. 744 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:50.599 But want you, I want you to explain to me, Seth. 745 00:34:50.679 --> 00:34:55.480 How you could know what a benevolent god's plan would be. 746 00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:57.639 Okay, you're going to ask me the same question. Yeah, 747 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:00.360 we don't. So that you don't, I have to say 748 00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:01.800 the same thing. And I am not to. 749 00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:05.360 Sit in this swirling eddy with you, and essentially, would 750 00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:06.159 you mute him for me? 751 00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:08.199 Yeah, of course, I'm happy to do that for you. 752 00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:10.400 Let me hang on, let me use my abuse of 753 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:12.679 muting powers to mute him real quick. 754 00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:14.599 So, yeah, he's going to ask me the same question 755 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:17.000 over and over, and it's I think it may be 756 00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:18.199 either a riff on how. 757 00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:21.119 Can you know that? It's more what's moral or immoral? 758 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.360 I don't think he's taking the objective moral standard angle. 759 00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:28.480 I think he's taking more of a macro big picture 760 00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:31.079 the mind of God. Who hath known the mind of God? 761 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:34.559 Mysterious ways? I am just an insect. How could I 762 00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:37.159 possibly even do there? Maybe I don't have the authority 763 00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:39.920 to do that, but it doesn't make any difference whatever 764 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.639 the context is that he is using to challenge me. 765 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:47.039 I think what this does is it is supposed to 766 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:51.000 strip me of the very valid right to be able 767 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.199 to say no. I understand what suffering is. I understand 768 00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:58.400 what waste is. I understand what's an efficiency at the 769 00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:03.039 very least is And a deity who gave a shit 770 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.320 would not operate in a way where, according to the 771 00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:11.039 Book of Isaiah, he would It would create evil so 772 00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:14.320 that he could contrast his good. A benevolent deity would 773 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:18.199 not have a model that included masked drownings and school 774 00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:22.679 shootings and sexual assault and murder and suffering and starvation 775 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:24.159 and all these types of things. 776 00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:27.920 And so the idea that, well, how could you possibly know? 777 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:30.719 With all You can act as indignant as you want, 778 00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:33.800 but it's not going to impress me. I spent thirty 779 00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:35.960 years in the faith, man, I've been there, so. 780 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:39.719 Yeah, And I would say to this too, like he's 781 00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:41.280 asked about, how do you know the same way I 782 00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:43.280 know about anything else in my life, whether it's good 783 00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:46.519 or bad? Is it promoting flourishing or is it promoting suffering? 784 00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:49.519 And I wouldn't even say. I wouldn't even stop at humans. 785 00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:53.920 Any conscious being that has a capacity to suffering or 786 00:36:53.960 --> 00:36:56.559 for suffering, right, is probably not a good thing. And 787 00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:00.320 a god that is doing that, it doesn't need me 788 00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:02.679 to conclude that what it is is good. If anything, 789 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:04.880 I don't know the difference between a god that's causing 790 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.840 maximal good or maximal suffering. How do we know in 791 00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:11.079 this universe based on this this weird metric of oh, 792 00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:13.280 we don't know the plan, Well, it could go either 793 00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:16.400 way if we don't know the plan. So Darth isn't 794 00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:19.960 really giving me a way out of this by just saying, oh, well, 795 00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:22.239 if it's a guy who's you know, got a bigger 796 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:24.480 picture here, that doesn't that doesn't give me any more 797 00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.159 confidence of knowing whether something is good or bad. 798 00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:30.800 Anyway, all right, let's try this one more time. You 799 00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:36.559 must seek darth. I'm meeting you now, so go ahead. 800 00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:40.760 Okay, so once again you Seth did not answer the question. 801 00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:44.800 What he did do was read, can I finish what 802 00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:45.320 I'm saying. 803 00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:49.920 I'm gonna sit behind go, go go. 804 00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:53.119 I'm going to confront you, and let's see if you're 805 00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:56.559 open to your position being protested. You did not answer 806 00:37:56.599 --> 00:37:57.159 my question. 807 00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:02.239 You Hello, hello, spin rapture here he was the only 808 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:02.920 one where. 809 00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:03.199 We cut out. 810 00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:05.480 You see your phones having issues. Man, I'm not even 811 00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:06.679 muting you for some of this. 812 00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:09.039 You're just not accusing you of muting me. 813 00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:13.440 Right now, my screen change. Okay, now listen carefully. Beth 814 00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:16.840 did not answer the specific question. What he did do 815 00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:21.079 for the third time was to reiterate the incompatibility with 816 00:38:21.159 --> 00:38:24.480 a maximly bean out of God, maximally benevolent God. 817 00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:27.079 With the amount of suffering that we see. 818 00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:31.159 He did not explain to me epistemologically how he could 819 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:34.519 know that a maximly benevolent God could not or would 820 00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:38.239 not ever implement a plan of creation and redemptive history 821 00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:40.599 where he permits the amount of suffering. 822 00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:42.880 I mean he did, and he said, Okay, it doesn't 823 00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:46.400 make sense. He said, why it doesn't make sense? Why 824 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:48.000 does schools shudn't happen? He's asking? 825 00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:51.880 He answered, this for you doesn't make sense. Now here's 826 00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:55.440 the problem with that response. When you say a proposition. 827 00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:57.480 Doesn't make sense, it means that you have to have a. 828 00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:00.960 Standard by which you refer to something that is in 829 00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:05.360 coherent by So how could you know that a god 830 00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:09.159 wouldn't do that other than your your speculations? How would 831 00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:12.320 you know that other than repeating the same plan of 832 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:17.239 the incompatibility with suffering and God's plan of creation. 833 00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:20.199 I can speak if you want, but I think you 834 00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:23.480 gave a standard. It was school shootings. School shootings was 835 00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:24.079 the standard. 836 00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:28.079 And they question, So that's not an answer to the question. 837 00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:30.360 How is it not you asked for a standard he 838 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:32.280 gave you once you know what's funny is I think 839 00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:35.119 Dan or or I don't know. Maybe you we could 840 00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:38.719 implement a plan that involved the creation of Cynthian beings 841 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:40.599 and we could bring the question, we could put together 842 00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:44.239 a model where there wasn't murder and rape and suffering 843 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:47.760 and your abuse and starvation and drownings. 844 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:48.800 And that you're dodging my question. 845 00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:51.159 Look, I don't know why you're so agitated. 846 00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:53.920 I mean, I may maybe this is how you burn 847 00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:56.440 calories on a Sunday afternoon. But I would encourage you 848 00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:00.880 to just take a breath and enhance your calm and man. 849 00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:03.519 Mocking me is not going to obscure the fact that 850 00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:06.920 you didn't tell me how you know that the amount 851 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:10.800 of suffering would be incompatible with a maximuly blog benevolent. 852 00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:11.800 Look, I realize it. 853 00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:14.519 You've carefully man and cured a question to make it 854 00:40:14.599 --> 00:40:16.440 sound deeper than it is. 855 00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:17.079 Question. 856 00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:18.679 It's a reasonable question. 857 00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:20.519 Let me know, would you like us to drop this 858 00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:23.079 call because I'm having to do that, you know, I. 859 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.440 Mean, are we going to go anywhere productive? I don't know. 860 00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:27.880 Might only answer the question. 861 00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:31.360 I can only address needless suffering so many different ways. 862 00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:34.440 Yeah, And to speak to the fact that we. 863 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:37.639 As human beings are not out of our depth to 864 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:42.079 say we understand what harm is, We understand the concept 865 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.280 of harm, and we know that plans can be implemented 866 00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:50.639 where harm is not required, and a deity that says, oh, 867 00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:53.559 you know what, I'm going to have school shootings as 868 00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:57.920 part of a larger macro plan for omni benevolence. I 869 00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:02.920 can say that's ridiculous, really offensive, And you don't get 870 00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:04.599 the point the finger at me and say that I'm 871 00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:07.760 dodging your question. Right, you're defending the god of school 872 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:10.280 shootings and you're pointing your finger at me. That's not 873 00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:12.079 going to work for you on this show. 874 00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:13.800 No, No, you did dodge the question. 875 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:15.159 You have dodged the question. 876 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:18.800 You aren't defending the god or brave. Can you stop 877 00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:20.440 defend the god. 878 00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:23.239 Or brape garth? Just take your time and defend it, 879 00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:24.039 you know what? 880 00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:26.159 You know what, So you guys are going to resort 881 00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:28.719 to being a You're going to drop again. 882 00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:33.440 It's a baby, all right? How many abused? 883 00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:33.960 Look? 884 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:40.119 What is that line? Who said? Was it thorough? Who said? Uh, 885 00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:41.400 maybe it was Emerson. 886 00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:43.039 You're afraid of Ralph? 887 00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:48.719 You can just drop him? Yeah, okay, let's yeah, I 888 00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:49.760 think it was Ralph Waldo. 889 00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:52.760 Emerson said, let me never fall into the vulgar mistake 890 00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:56.360 of dreaming that I am being persecuted whenever I am 891 00:41:56.400 --> 00:42:02.039 merely being contradicted, and that's what Dark was doing. We're like, no, 892 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:04.199 I don't buy that. No, this is crap, No, this 893 00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:07.440 makes no sense. No, we disagree, and he's like, you 894 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:09.400 abusive fasts. 895 00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:15.480 Yeah, how dare you have mute me on a callin show? 896 00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:20.000 Oh you porn tissue skinned victim. 897 00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:24.360 My deepest topologies skipped over the school shootings. But we 898 00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:25.199 gotta listen. 899 00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:27.239 When you mute somebody on a Collin show, you got 900 00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:28.000 to call it out right. 901 00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:29.800 You know what, if you'll pray for God to heal 902 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:32.480 the wounds that we have inflicted upon you with our 903 00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:35.599 vowels and consonants, perhaps you will find respite from the 904 00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:36.480 pain Dark. 905 00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:40.239 Yeah, it's like, the problem is you answered his question. 906 00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:43.119 You just gave an answer he didn't like. You know, 907 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:44.599 That's all it was. At the end of the day, 908 00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:46.239 he just gave an answer he didn't like. It didn't 909 00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:49.079 fall into his format. And guys like Darth are all about, well, 910 00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:51.320 you got to fit the script. You gotta fit the format, 911 00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:52.599 otherwise you're. 912 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:57.119 Invalid, stuck the deck against himself. By saying maximally I mean, 913 00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:03.159 he's saying maximally benevolent I thought, yeah, now you've really yeah, 914 00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:06.599 now you really stacked the deck against yourself. It's not like, oh, 915 00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:11.920 I'm benevolent, but you know, I'm moderately benevolent somewhat. 916 00:43:11.960 --> 00:43:15.920 But I mean, I know that's the whole thing. That's great, folks. 917 00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:17.599 We have open lines still. So if you want to 918 00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:20.480 talk to me and said you should do that, please 919 00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:23.320 call in, whether on TikTok or I want to call 920 00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:25.960 in through our show, you can do that. 921 00:43:26.039 --> 00:43:29.320 Numbers on the screen to do so. But yeah, I agree. 922 00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:33.280 So like I you know, the moral questions are probably 923 00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:36.320 one of the hardest ones for me to deconstruct, and 924 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:39.920 that is because my kind of Christianity was the kind 925 00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:42.599 of Christianity that said, you, God is what gave you 926 00:43:43.159 --> 00:43:45.559 in understanding what's right and wrong, and like depending on 927 00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:46.920 how you follow the Bible, that may or may not 928 00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:48.880 literally be true, right, because like if you believe there's 929 00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:50.800 that of a need, they literally ate a fruit that 930 00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:53.000 gave you the knowledge of right and wrong. Right, so 931 00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:56.320 you can follow that or like moral intuition, right, you 932 00:43:56.360 --> 00:43:59.199 can just say, well, that's the sign of like a creator, right. 933 00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:02.320 And so like Chians always they really don't understand a 934 00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:04.639 world where we can evaluate things as being right or 935 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:08.719 wrong without God being some sort of objective standard to that. 936 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:11.400 The problem is God's not an objective standard. God has 937 00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:13.679 never been an objective standard. It's always been an idea. 938 00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:16.559 And we don't even know what God is, then we 939 00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:19.039 can't even evaluate him as an objective standard. He's meant 940 00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:21.880 different things, that's had different values depending on the culture 941 00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.199 and context, and you know the world that you live in. 942 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:27.239 So I guarantee you if we talked to an early 943 00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:31.199 Christian from forty a d About what's right and wrong, 944 00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:35.320 they're going to disagree with most Christians on Earth today 945 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:39.039 on what that looks like, because your culture and the 946 00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:41.320 world that you live in matters. So you know, these 947 00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:43.559 kinds of questions they used to be more interesting to me. 948 00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:45.639 Now it's just well, it really is just kind of 949 00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:48.880 all relative at the end of the day at some point, right, Well, And. 950 00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:51.920 I don't know if this was his take, there may 951 00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:55.960 be some of that in there, but there is a 952 00:44:56.039 --> 00:45:00.360 thinking it's often called vertical morality or divine command theory, 953 00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:04.360 where if God does it, it's moral by default. So 954 00:45:04.599 --> 00:45:08.639 we are God's creation and because God's ways are not 955 00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:11.119 our ways, and he works in mysterious ways, and God 956 00:45:11.239 --> 00:45:13.840 uses the foolish things to shame the wise, and trust 957 00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:17.280 not in your own understanding, etc. Then whatever God does, 958 00:45:18.039 --> 00:45:20.880 if he lets you die in a house fire, if 959 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:24.199 he lets your children be stripped from you and a kidnapping, 960 00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:28.840 if if right horrible cancers and degenerative diseases, not whatever. 961 00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:33.599 If if you are punished or some horrible thing happens 962 00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:37.760 to you and your life is ruined, It's God's will 963 00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:42.679 and it cannot be called immoral. If God does it, 964 00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:46.519 it is just simply the moral thing. And his standard 965 00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:50.159 is totally different and lives apart from the standard that 966 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:54.119 we apply to everything and everyone else. And one sinister 967 00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:58.239 thing that fundamental Christianity and other funding religions do is 968 00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:01.559 they try to strip us of asserting the authority to 969 00:46:01.639 --> 00:46:04.559 say that's wrong and that's a moral A great example 970 00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:07.880 is the Abraham Isaac story. And I'll have this conversation 971 00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:11.360 with about believers. I'll say it's kind of a setup, 972 00:46:11.400 --> 00:46:16.400 but you know, Christianity is lung Judaism. The Abrahamic faiths Oh, yes, yes, 973 00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:19.360 do you believe that Abraham was a hero of the faith. Yes, 974 00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:22.239 Abraham hero of the faith, And I say, look, if 975 00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:27.519 God told you to take your son to an altar 976 00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:31.480 and stab your son until he was dead as an 977 00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:33.480 act of obedience, would you do it? 978 00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:34.519 Now? 979 00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:38.159 They will blink and squirm and say, well, it was 980 00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:41.079 a different time and he didn't actually and God the angel. 981 00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:45.239 But we suddenly worldvism is a good defense. 982 00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:48.159 That was different at the time, and ignore that Abraham 983 00:46:48.280 --> 00:46:49.880 was fully prepared to go through it to the point 984 00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:51.840 where his hand had to be grabbed to keep the 985 00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.000 eye from going down. But whenever we talk about well, 986 00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:57.719 can we then say that it's an immoral act? They say, well, 987 00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:03.639 you know God created aber and Isaac. God's plan demanded it. 988 00:47:03.719 --> 00:47:07.440 We can't call it immoral. Man, that's a dangerous place 989 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:07.679 to be. 990 00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:09.039 That's yeahangerous. 991 00:47:09.079 --> 00:47:12.679 You can have all kinds of atrocities and insanities with that. 992 00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:16.920 Yeah, that's true. That reminds me of a conversation I 993 00:47:18.440 --> 00:47:22.800 asked Frank Turk himself at Baylor University. He did a 994 00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:27.079 lecture there, and I asked him about this passage in numbers. 995 00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:29.840 I know you're familiar about it, where you know there's 996 00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:32.199 a guy that picks up sticks on a Sunday and 997 00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:34.159 as a result, he gets stoned to death for it, 998 00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:37.159 And I asked him if that was an act of 999 00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:39.440 I can't remember my exact wording, but it was something 1000 00:47:39.559 --> 00:47:41.760 like if it was a good thing basically, right, was 1001 00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:44.719 this was this good? Because I mean, it was God's 1002 00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:47.239 law to do that at the time, so they had 1003 00:47:47.239 --> 00:47:49.679 the right to do that. And I got this defense, 1004 00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:51.760 like you said of like, well, you know it was 1005 00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:53.719 the law of the time and now that's the old 1006 00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:55.639 law and we're in the new covenants. 1007 00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:59.000 Like, well, but that's not what that doesn't answer that, right, 1008 00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:00.679 Like was it a act or not? 1009 00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:04.719 Because if it wasn't a good act, we have to 1010 00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:08.360 consider God's laws maybe not being good, right, Like I 1011 00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:10.920 don't think that's good. I don't think people should be 1012 00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:14.599 stoned to death really period. But let alone, you know, 1013 00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:17.119 big enough sticks on a Sunday is not a big deal, 1014 00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:19.519 but it was a big deal to that time and culture, 1015 00:48:19.559 --> 00:48:21.480 because you know that's what browny is. 1016 00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:23.039 It's kind of tight and time and culture. 1017 00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:26.960 But well, obviously a maximally benevolent deity would have well, yeah, 1018 00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:31.079 people owned for the heinous act of big picking on 1019 00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:32.559 a on the Sabbath. 1020 00:48:33.400 --> 00:48:34.920 It was so it was so we could read it 1021 00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:36.760 in the modern day in the Bible and get scared. 1022 00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:38.239 It is true. It is true? 1023 00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:40.480 Well, you know another and I saw this done by 1024 00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:43.280 a couple of Muslims in the Netherlands where they grabbed 1025 00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:47.039 the Holy Bible and they put a curanic cover on 1026 00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:48.880 it and they went out to people and they're like, 1027 00:48:48.920 --> 00:48:51.679 did you read this atrocious story? And they read about 1028 00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:54.280 slavery and the beating of slaves and the stoning of 1029 00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:57.920 disobedient children or whatever the stories were, and man and people, 1030 00:48:58.039 --> 00:48:58.800 the Christians that. 1031 00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:01.039 They were speaking to, were like, that's barbaric. 1032 00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:04.440 How can anyone possibly believe that in this modern day? 1033 00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:05.639 It's so perfect? 1034 00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:08.559 And they pulled the Kuran cover off and it says 1035 00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:11.000 Holy Bible, and he shows them chapter and verse and 1036 00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:14.719 you can see them their brains melt, just literally and 1037 00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:18.840 they went many of them some were honestly disbelieving and 1038 00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:21.000 like that's terrible, but a few of them. 1039 00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:24.039 You could see him flip and he became defense. 1040 00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:29.920 Well it was a context and translation time, and his 1041 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.280 ways are not my ways in Moray, you know, And 1042 00:49:32.599 --> 00:49:36.480 it immediately became like they were defending instead of trying 1043 00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:37.360 to have a conversation. 1044 00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:39.599 About it. So yeah, yeah, of course you got to. 1045 00:49:39.719 --> 00:49:41.679 I mean, that's just something about the brain that you 1046 00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:43.800 know gets into that defensive mode when it comes to 1047 00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:45.320 your deeply hell believe Would you have. 1048 00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:45.760 Been that way? 1049 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:46.119 Like it? 1050 00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:48.079 Let's say I'm an atheist and you were the believing 1051 00:49:48.199 --> 00:49:50.239 Methodist and I came to you and I showed you 1052 00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:52.000 a bunch of stuff in the Bible. Do you think 1053 00:49:52.199 --> 00:49:54.000 you would have gone because I think I would have. 1054 00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:55.760 In fact, I know I would have. I would have 1055 00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:58.719 gone into a defensive posture. Yeah, and all the reasons 1056 00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:00.920 why the nonsensical made sense. Do you feel like you 1057 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:01.639 would have done that? 1058 00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:02.239 Well? 1059 00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:03.920 I think it depends on what time in my life, 1060 00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:06.320 because I didn't read the Bible all the way until 1061 00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:09.239 I was an adult, right, So it's like, you know, 1062 00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:11.199 as a teenager, maybe I would have said that as 1063 00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:14.400 I got older and I deconstructed when I was in college, right, 1064 00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:17.960 So you know, I think maybe I would have said, 1065 00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:21.440 there's probably more context to this that I don't know, Right, 1066 00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:22.880 I would have just been like, I don't know, but 1067 00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:25.039 there is an answer, I just don't know it. I 1068 00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:26.800 think that's probably where my brain would have went to. 1069 00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:29.440 But of course you know, you do the work and 1070 00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:31.480 you figure it out. It turns out maybe there is 1071 00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:32.639 an answer, but it's not so good. 1072 00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:33.280 That's why, you know. 1073 00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:35.199 I've talked with Catholics and they're like, oh, yeah, problem 1074 00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:39.920 of evil. Thomas Aquin has figured that stuff out centuries ago. Man, 1075 00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:41.360 you don't have to worry about that. Yeah, I know 1076 00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:43.960 his answer. I just don't think it's good, Like I just. 1077 00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:46.400 You know, but you know, John Lofton wrote a whole 1078 00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:46.920 book on this. 1079 00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:49.440 It's called The God of Needless Suffering, and I thought 1080 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:51.639 you had some really good points. He did a blog 1081 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:55.079 article version of it, kind of a synopsis that I 1082 00:50:55.159 --> 00:50:58.519 actually read. I just read the whole thing on the podcast. 1083 00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:02.199 This was three or four or five years and I think, 1084 00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:04.760 you know, many people call it the problem of evil, 1085 00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:07.079 but I think needless suffering is probably a slightly better 1086 00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:07.760 way to phrase it. 1087 00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:10.599 And it's a valid. 1088 00:51:10.280 --> 00:51:13.960 Challenge to this idea of not just omni benevolence, but 1089 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:17.199 any kind of benevolence in a creature with God like 1090 00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:21.159 powers who apparently is interested in us, and if that 1091 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:24.599 deity would allow the God who is not the author 1092 00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:28.599 of confusion allowing this much confusion, and the God who 1093 00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:30.960 is the God of peace, perfect peace, who is allowing 1094 00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:34.559 and even enabling and creating this much suffering. I think 1095 00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:37.239 it's perfectly valid to say no, now, I don't see 1096 00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:41.000 any benevolence. In fact, there's probably malevolence there. What if 1097 00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:43.519 God is to say this, who has the magnifying glass 1098 00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:47.239 and is just frying us like insects and the body 1099 00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:48.320 being right? 1100 00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:49.960 Yeah? I try to develop this idea earlier. 1101 00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:51.400 I don't know how clear it was about this, but 1102 00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:53.559 just to try to reiterate, like, I don't know how 1103 00:51:53.599 --> 00:51:56.000 we can determine whether a maximally good or a maximally 1104 00:51:56.039 --> 00:51:58.280 evil God currently exists right now, because I do see 1105 00:51:58.280 --> 00:52:00.360 a lot of suffering, and any defense you can make 1106 00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:03.840 towards a maximally good God right now, you could make 1107 00:52:03.880 --> 00:52:06.360 towards a maxley evil god. You could say, oh, yeah, 1108 00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:08.480 the good stuff that you're seeing right now, that's just 1109 00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:11.000 the micro that's the part of the you know, that's 1110 00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:13.800 the that's the little parts for the big macro plan 1111 00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:16.000 of suffering. I mean, how do you how do you 1112 00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:16.880 differentiate that? 1113 00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:19.119 Right? I don't know how you do it, but. 1114 00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:22.239 And how would you be able Let's say someone put 1115 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:24.760 both scenarios side by side and say tell me. 1116 00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:27.280 This is God or a double to. What would the 1117 00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:30.719 difference be, right? Yeah, the difference be so good. 1118 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:33.559 Stuff there, folks, We're still we have open lines. I 1119 00:52:33.559 --> 00:52:35.480 want to talk to some people. I know you guys 1120 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:37.320 want to talk to Seth Andrews. I always want to know. 1121 00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:43.400 Seth is awesome. Awesome guy. You you got to officiate 1122 00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:44.840 my wedding last year. 1123 00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:47.079 Now, yeah, last night is one of the gigs that 1124 00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:49.480 really are never expected to be able to do. And 1125 00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:51.599 I just love and it was an honor to be there. 1126 00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:55.519 I am outdoor wedding, which is goutsy the schedule and 1127 00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:57.079 outdoor wedding, yes, and we. 1128 00:52:57.159 --> 00:52:59.719 Had some technical issues from that so your mic was 1129 00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:01.159 not working right, which I regret. 1130 00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:03.159 But you know what I heard every word you said. 1131 00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:06.880 It's all uptown problems, dude, It's all you know, first 1132 00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:10.039 world problems. I know what's funny about and I'm doing. 1133 00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:12.960 I'm actually officiating a wedding. I don't want to say 1134 00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:14.800 the name because I. 1135 00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:18.320 Describate citizens and stuff. Yeah, you probably don't want to 1136 00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:18.679 take but. 1137 00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:22.880 I just got invited next year to officiate the wedding 1138 00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:25.119 of an Oklahoma congressman. 1139 00:53:25.400 --> 00:53:29.480 Oh yeah, yeah, all right, Olahoma, Yeah, Oklahoma. 1140 00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:30.519 That's that's impressive. 1141 00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:33.360 I was like, really, so that's pretty cool. But you know, 1142 00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:36.119 it's funny a lot of times when I go in 1143 00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:41.599 and I'm invited to be a secular efficiant, there will 1144 00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:44.199 be highly religious people on the family tree. 1145 00:53:44.599 --> 00:53:45.599 Yeah. Who here. 1146 00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:48.920 They're not bringing in a preacher, They're bringing in who 1147 00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:50.119 what's his name? 1148 00:53:50.599 --> 00:53:51.039 Google. 1149 00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:53.599 Definitely had a little bit of that with my family. 1150 00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:54.760 I'm not gonna lie. 1151 00:53:56.199 --> 00:53:57.760 Who who's coming in. 1152 00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:01.159 I did a wedding in Kentucky must have been five years, 1153 00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:03.800 six years ago, and I'm just talking while we wait. 1154 00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:04.920 For the call. Yeah, yeah, for sure. 1155 00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:07.079 But plus I'm one of those guys who I just 1156 00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:08.639 like shows or people, band or anyway. 1157 00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:11.920 Again, I can talk to Seth for two hours a week. 1158 00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:13.159 We're catching it, you know. 1159 00:54:13.559 --> 00:54:19.599 So anyway, the family of the groom, I mean they 1160 00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:27.440 were hardcore Jesus is a Republican, conservative capitalist, you know, 1161 00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:30.880 they were just and they were fundy Bible believers. 1162 00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:31.800 Yeah. 1163 00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:33.840 And they found out I was coming and they're like, uh, 1164 00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:35.480 you bringing a. 1165 00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:36.639 Right, what's going on? 1166 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:40.559 And they had real trepidation about it, and like, no, 1167 00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:42.960 this is who we want. This is who's officiating the 1168 00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:46.079 winning And they're like, uh, it's your choice, are you sure? 1169 00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:48.639 And I showed up and I'm telling you, by the 1170 00:54:48.760 --> 00:54:54.119 end of the weekend, we were like pals. They all 1171 00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:57.119 of the preconceptions they had about what the evil atheist 1172 00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:01.079 is right or the godless is well. I show up 1173 00:55:01.159 --> 00:55:04.320 in Goodwill. I'm walking around the room meeting everybody. We're 1174 00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:07.119 swapping stories, talking about our families were out there setting 1175 00:55:07.159 --> 00:55:10.280 things up. The service itself is not an agenda driven thing. 1176 00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:13.800 It was about the couple. It wasn't about religion, politics anything. 1177 00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:17.039 At the end, we're all having a ball. I'm helping 1178 00:55:17.079 --> 00:55:19.480 to move chairs and tables when it's done, to take 1179 00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:21.840 everything down, and they were just like wow. 1180 00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:23.440 And my flight got canceled. 1181 00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:27.599 And the same family that was weird about me officiating said, 1182 00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:29.119 you are not going to a hotel. 1183 00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:34.119 You are staying in our home tonight. And it's interesting 1184 00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:34.599 when you. 1185 00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:38.960 Humanize things in the walls start to come down, and 1186 00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.400 in some cases I think that's when conversations can begin. 1187 00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:43.480 But if nothing else, I know. 1188 00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:47.960 I messed up their categories because they had this preconceived idea, right, 1189 00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:48.760 and they. 1190 00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:50.159 Were nervous and after it was over. 1191 00:55:50.199 --> 00:55:52.320 They're like, hey, that wasn't bad at all. 1192 00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:53.239 That's true. 1193 00:55:53.760 --> 00:55:56.320 You really had to remind yourself. I have a buddy 1194 00:55:56.360 --> 00:55:58.400 of mine. He was actually he was the best man 1195 00:55:58.400 --> 00:56:01.800 at that wedding. I think the only Christian in my 1196 00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:06.559 wedding party. Actually, and I've known this guy since since 1197 00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:08.679 we used to be in church camp. Like we were 1198 00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:11.719 church camp counselors. Okay, so we go back and uh, 1199 00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:15.400 like he is, like if every Christian was like him, 1200 00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:18.239 I would not be on the internet talking about stuff truly, 1201 00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:20.480 because like, he's a good guy. I know, I know 1202 00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:22.039 him in and out, and he's got some takes I 1203 00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:26.239 disagree with, but I've never judged his heart on things. 1204 00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:30.760 And that's really important because it's you're right. Even on 1205 00:56:30.840 --> 00:56:33.599 our side of the space, it's easy for us to 1206 00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:36.199 put people in the categories, even though we like to 1207 00:56:36.199 --> 00:56:37.880 think that we're nuanced and we like to think, oh, hey, 1208 00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:39.559 well I've talked to everybody under the sun. 1209 00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:41.559 I'm Seth Andrews. Look at me. I'm cool. But you know, 1210 00:56:41.679 --> 00:56:43.679 I mean all that's true. 1211 00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:47.400 But you know, you know, we still meet people and 1212 00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:49.599 they can still surprise us, which is great, and that's 1213 00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:52.280 another reason why I like doing Collins shows because I 1214 00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:54.920 still get surprised on stuff. Yeah, we hear some of 1215 00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:57.320 the same stuff, but we do hear some surprises. Just 1216 00:56:57.360 --> 00:56:59.199 earlier on Truth One, I was talking to somebody about 1217 00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:01.760 their pre cognition via dreams and. 1218 00:57:01.719 --> 00:57:03.119 You know, well that's more of a truth one thing. 1219 00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:05.480 But you know it's fun. You can see some fun stuff. 1220 00:57:05.239 --> 00:57:07.599 You think about. You know, do we share we made 1221 00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:09.480 disagree in beliefs. Do we share values? 1222 00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:11.280 Right? And that's why. 1223 00:57:11.840 --> 00:57:14.480 Like when I Natalie and I were married, she identified 1224 00:57:14.599 --> 00:57:19.440 as a Christian, and people were like, how how could 1225 00:57:19.480 --> 00:57:24.320 you at all marry someone who identified as a Christian? 1226 00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:28.079 Now she me she wasn't really it. She grew up Christian, 1227 00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:30.320 went to Christian church. But I mean it wouldn't have 1228 00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:33.360 worked if she was hardcore. Yeah, culturally Christian maybe right 1229 00:57:33.559 --> 00:57:36.440 now she I think she's just like everything. She thinks 1230 00:57:36.440 --> 00:57:39.320 there's maybe something out there. And you know, we got 1231 00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:42.320 We've got a Buddhast statue downstairs, and there's a voodoo 1232 00:57:42.400 --> 00:57:43.679 doll we keep for fun. 1233 00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:46.079 And there's baby we got one of thosettle baby. 1234 00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:47.880 Jesus's for laughs. I stuck it on the count. I 1235 00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:50.800 mean just thirty one flavors, but we don't do anything religious. 1236 00:57:50.840 --> 00:57:53.960 But even when she identified with a religious label, we 1237 00:57:54.039 --> 00:57:57.800 shared values. Our our values were the same, and that 1238 00:57:57.960 --> 00:58:00.400 was the difference. And you're right that we in the 1239 00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:03.719 free thought movement atheists we like to think we're above 1240 00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.320 it all and that we can't be reductive and we 1241 00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:08.599 can't be humanized, and we can't be tribal, and we 1242 00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:11.519 can't be biased, and we can't be just wrong. Yeah, 1243 00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:16.079 and yeah, we're all animated meat man. We are all 1244 00:58:16.159 --> 00:58:19.480 higher primates. We're all true you know. We we can 1245 00:58:19.559 --> 00:58:23.679 all be guilty of reductive thinking and treating people in 1246 00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:27.239 terms of memes instead of human beings. 1247 00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:29.639 Yeah. Yeah, and you know, I think we have to 1248 00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:30.360 be aware of that. 1249 00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:33.559 We can all we can all have bad ideas about 1250 00:58:33.559 --> 00:58:34.159 good people. 1251 00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:34.960 Yeah. 1252 00:58:35.159 --> 00:58:37.280 Yeah, you know it hurts me sometimes even more than 1253 00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:39.960 Oh I used to be a Christian and I was 1254 00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:42.119 hurt in this space. I mean, obviously, you know, we 1255 00:58:42.119 --> 00:58:43.760 we know a lot of folks in the stories. It's 1256 00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:46.000 I was in an atheist space and I got hurt 1257 00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:50.440 in that space. That hurts me more because I feel 1258 00:58:50.440 --> 00:58:54.400 a duty of care as somebody who you know speaks online, right, 1259 00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:57.840 I feel like I have to help cultivate and be 1260 00:58:58.039 --> 00:59:00.280 the example that I want to be, so I don't. 1261 00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:03.880 I don't particularly, I don't always. It's fun sometimes I'm 1262 00:59:03.880 --> 00:59:06.760 not gonna laugh, but I don't really like to get 1263 00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:09.400 heat with people when we talk to people. Okay, if 1264 00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:11.840 you're coming to Agro, you get what you're what's coming 1265 00:59:11.840 --> 00:59:13.199 to you. Okay, I don't know what to do about that, 1266 00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:15.400 but you know, I don't want to make an example 1267 00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:18.280 of people and say this is why all this group 1268 00:59:18.320 --> 00:59:19.119 of people are stupid. 1269 00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:20.920 Okay, That's that's not what I'm here for. 1270 00:59:21.039 --> 00:59:24.159 I'm here to help people understand where you're coming from 1271 00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:27.199 and where I'm coming from and why we're here, right 1272 00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:29.239 because it was a little journey to get to where 1273 00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:30.280 we are here. 1274 00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:33.320 And if we can build that understanding, that's great. 1275 00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:35.159 And if somebody has an experience that's going to change 1276 00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:37.840 my mind about something which people have done through this 1277 00:59:38.360 --> 00:59:42.360 shows like this, then that's great as well. I want 1278 00:59:42.400 --> 00:59:45.519 that to be the goal, not a you know, here's 1279 00:59:45.559 --> 00:59:47.800 why all Christians are dumb, and here's why you're smarter 1280 00:59:47.880 --> 00:59:50.119 and better than other people for not believing it. If 1281 00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:53.039 that's what this movement is, then I want out, Okay, 1282 00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:54.159 I don't want anything to do with that. 1283 00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:58.079 Right. Well, I'm you know, I'm prepping material. I'm speaking 1284 00:59:58.119 --> 01:00:00.599 at Baja Kan and Sarnia, and I'm doing an event 1285 01:00:00.679 --> 01:00:03.960 in Huntsville and October, and I'm working on a speech 1286 01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:06.639 and I'm not sure if I'm ready to I'm trying 1287 01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:09.480 to decide how much grief i want, well, how much 1288 01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:11.199 grief I want in my email inbox. 1289 01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:13.039 But it's going to be I'm going to. 1290 01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:15.079 Start with a lot of the bad arguments that religious 1291 01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:17.880 people use about atheists. And we've heard it all, you know, 1292 01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:20.800 they misrepresent and they talk they don't even understand what 1293 01:00:20.840 --> 01:00:24.719 they're saying. But then I want to segue into here 1294 01:00:24.800 --> 01:00:27.079 are so many of the things that I see in 1295 01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:30.719 atheist spaces said about the religious that are just wrong. 1296 01:00:31.159 --> 01:00:34.840 A religion is a mental illness. I just want to 1297 01:00:34.880 --> 01:00:36.519 crawl through the monitor every time. 1298 01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:36.880 I see that. 1299 01:00:37.039 --> 01:00:41.920 So, yeah, I saw somebody post a meme that said, 1300 01:00:42.039 --> 01:00:44.480 why is it so peaceful on Sundays because all the 1301 01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:48.599 evil people are at church? I'm sorry, are you seriously 1302 01:00:48.679 --> 01:00:50.880 saying that all the Christians are evil? 1303 01:00:50.920 --> 01:00:52.280 I mean, it's just ridiculous. 1304 01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:54.840 There is one that said The reason that we are 1305 01:00:55.400 --> 01:00:58.840 more educated is because we use more than just one book. 1306 01:00:59.119 --> 01:01:02.360 And it shows that this giant, vast library is if 1307 01:01:02.360 --> 01:01:03.760 this is a resource. 1308 01:01:03.320 --> 01:01:05.559 This we because I totally read every book in that 1309 01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:06.679 library for sure. 1310 01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:08.519 Yeah, hashtag irony. 1311 01:01:08.840 --> 01:01:11.760 They didn't stop to check that the image was actually 1312 01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:15.440 from a religious college. Oh wow, it's so I'm just 1313 01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:16.239 I want to go through. 1314 01:01:16.960 --> 01:01:17.199 Yeah. 1315 01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:22.000 I just think we are not immune. Yes, totally got 1316 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:26.599 to be. We've got to do better. We do have 1317 01:01:26.639 --> 01:01:27.800 folks that do want to talk to us. 1318 01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:28.360 All right, cool. 1319 01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.559 I'm very glad because Seth is a very interesting person. Guys, 1320 01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:35.519 please talk to Seth. Okay, not like Darth Thawkins was, 1321 01:01:35.559 --> 01:01:38.199 but you know, any literally any outer way, ad me 1322 01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:41.480 more than two thank you before we do get to 1323 01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:43.280 this next person, can I want to bring this up 1324 01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:44.800 because I didn't get to bring it up earlier. 1325 01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:46.039 I'm doing that thing where. 1326 01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:48.400 You had a topic of conversation like fifteen minutes ago, 1327 01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:50.800 and you're going back into it. Okay, so this is 1328 01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:54.159 ADHD talking. Okay, have you heard about this this thing? 1329 01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:57.400 You know, I went to Japan from my honeymoon and 1330 01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:00.960 somebody told me about this. There's these this guy that 1331 01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:04.079 claims he found the tomb of Christ in Japan. Do 1332 01:02:04.119 --> 01:02:09.559 you know about this? You know about this is real? No, 1333 01:02:09.639 --> 01:02:11.800 it is real. He claims he discovered the two And 1334 01:02:11.840 --> 01:02:13.800 I have the article of from Wikipedia, of course, in 1335 01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:18.320 nineteen thirty five, while he was serving a village there, 1336 01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:20.440 and this is what it says. On the side, it 1337 01:02:20.440 --> 01:02:24.199 says Christ's grave. When Jesus Christ was twenty one years old, 1338 01:02:24.239 --> 01:02:27.800 he came to Japan and pursued divinity for twelve years. 1339 01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:30.679 He went back to Judea at age thirty three and 1340 01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:33.760 engaged in his mission. However, at that time, people in 1341 01:02:33.840 --> 01:02:36.679 Judea would not accept Christ preaching. Instead, they arrested him 1342 01:02:36.679 --> 01:02:39.719 and tried to crucify him on a cross. His younger brother, 1343 01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:43.920 Issu Kiri casually took Christ's place and in his life 1344 01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:45.760 on the cross. And then it goes on to talk 1345 01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:50.000 about how Christ actually escaped crucifixion and went to Japan 1346 01:02:50.119 --> 01:02:52.159 and lived to the age of one hundred and six 1347 01:02:52.199 --> 01:02:52.960 and that's his grave. 1348 01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:55.960 So I just think that's awesome. That's super cool. Isn't 1349 01:02:55.960 --> 01:02:56.320 that great? 1350 01:02:57.320 --> 01:03:00.360 Like the Mormon story of Jesus after the reserd direction, 1351 01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:03.719 before he went up to Heaven, he visited Palmyra, New York. 1352 01:03:04.280 --> 01:03:06.000 Yeah, yeah, that's great. 1353 01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:08.519 It's like Assassin's Creed lare right there or something. I 1354 01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:10.800 don't know, it's awesome. I want that to be true. 1355 01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:14.119 I hope that Jesus Christ was well, first of all, 1356 01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:16.440 did exist, and also, you know, left your day to 1357 01:03:16.440 --> 01:03:18.559 go to Japan until the age of one hundred. 1358 01:03:17.920 --> 01:03:21.280 And he lived a long and rich, happy life. Yeah, 1359 01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:23.679 we just we never figured that out. And now, like, 1360 01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:26.559 that's awesome. That would be a great ending to a 1361 01:03:26.679 --> 01:03:30.400 Christianity story. Oh man, okay, so the call that was 1362 01:03:30.440 --> 01:03:32.719 coming in earlier, Oh, maybe there's another coming in the queue. 1363 01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:36.079 Another one got terminated, so we we we're gonna keep 1364 01:03:36.119 --> 01:03:36.719 chatting here. 1365 01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:37.159 I think. 1366 01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:39.320 I think that's what's happening, right. 1367 01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:41.159 I don't mind a bit. I can flap my gums 1368 01:03:41.199 --> 01:03:44.519 all day, you know. Yeah, and two hosts in a room. 1369 01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:46.800 You know, it's almost like when I was I forgot 1370 01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:49.000 where I was, but I had Forest Valcai and Gotsi 1371 01:03:49.119 --> 01:03:51.480 Gibbon in the same room and we were just sitting 1372 01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:55.159 and you just start talking and blink and it's two 1373 01:03:55.239 --> 01:03:55.920 hours later. 1374 01:03:56.159 --> 01:03:58.719 Yes, oh my god, yes, And then you think. 1375 01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:01.239 God, I wish i'd had microphon in here this whole time. 1376 01:04:01.400 --> 01:04:03.400 I remember being at a table with it was you, 1377 01:04:03.679 --> 01:04:06.760 guts it, Gibven, who else was there? This was at 1378 01:04:07.480 --> 01:04:10.039 a convention we went to and and y'all too like, 1379 01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:12.480 first of all, guts it given you talk. Just mentioned 1380 01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:17.159 the word ape and you'll lose te minutes of your life. 1381 01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:19.400 And it's a good fifteen minute to lose. 1382 01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:21.440 I'm not saying it's bad, but man, like, you know, shit, 1383 01:04:21.559 --> 01:04:23.440 that's her thing, and it's like, I don't know you 1384 01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:25.280 you also being there, I don't know. 1385 01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:27.400 We have very interesting people in our space, it is 1386 01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:27.840 for sure. 1387 01:04:28.400 --> 01:04:31.280 I think used the word genius and she would hate 1388 01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:32.079 that I'm using it. 1389 01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:36.800 But really she, I mean, she is one of them. 1390 01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:38.679 Oh you're saying she's calling her genius. I thought you 1391 01:04:38.719 --> 01:04:40.519 meant she didn't like the word genius in general. 1392 01:04:40.880 --> 01:04:43.159 No, no, no, no, I mean, gosh, she would totally 1393 01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:46.079 blush and she would differ and say, no, Robert Sepalski 1394 01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:47.639 or somebody else youh. 1395 01:04:47.320 --> 01:04:47.840 Blah love it. 1396 01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:53.920 But her level of knowledge and expertise and just her acumen, 1397 01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:57.840 her ability to connect dots and translate them into something 1398 01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:01.079 where you and I can play along is one of them, 1399 01:05:01.239 --> 01:05:04.920 she enforced, both are some of the best science communicators 1400 01:05:04.920 --> 01:05:07.320 that I have ever met. We did an event together, 1401 01:05:08.039 --> 01:05:10.719 all three of us, on stage in Tulsa this last March, 1402 01:05:11.360 --> 01:05:13.840 and I was like, here, I am on stage with 1403 01:05:13.880 --> 01:05:17.920 two PhD you know, candidates, and I'm the guy who 1404 01:05:18.039 --> 01:05:20.639 thought that a donkey spoke Hebrew in. 1405 01:05:20.599 --> 01:05:24.280 The book numbers, you know, just like you know. 1406 01:05:24.440 --> 01:05:26.599 But then I have to then I have to realize, no, 1407 01:05:26.719 --> 01:05:29.320 I have a part to play and I have to contribute. 1408 01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:33.960 But you get them talking biology, primatology, whatever, and buggle up, 1409 01:05:34.039 --> 01:05:37.440 have a seat, drink something, because it's going to be 1410 01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:37.840 a while. 1411 01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:39.679 Yeah, it's true, it's true. 1412 01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:43.519 Definitely more interesting conversations than most conversations I had in church. 1413 01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:45.760 I am confident in that. 1414 01:05:46.639 --> 01:05:48.480 But okay, on that note, I think we we we 1415 01:05:48.519 --> 01:05:50.519 got our stuff together on our side here, so I 1416 01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:56.079 have somebody available next in I think here. 1417 01:05:55.920 --> 01:05:57.000 Oh, well, it's backwards you. 1418 01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:00.559 No, I'm sorry, guys, I'm sorry, I'm tea in today 1419 01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:04.519 because it's not we're getting stuff figured out on our side. Okay, 1420 01:06:04.559 --> 01:06:07.480 there's some things happening, but again, just flapping my gums 1421 01:06:07.519 --> 01:06:08.840 with said. 1422 01:06:08.480 --> 01:06:12.519 You did you like when I was raised in a 1423 01:06:12.559 --> 01:06:16.760 fundamental Christian home in school and I'm a private Christian school. Right, 1424 01:06:17.400 --> 01:06:19.960 we knew evolution was a lie of the devil. 1425 01:06:20.440 --> 01:06:22.800 Yeah that was me, but no one knew. 1426 01:06:22.559 --> 01:06:25.519 What evolution really was, Like we've never read the on 1427 01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:29.360 the Origin of Species, We've never taken a legit biology class, 1428 01:06:30.199 --> 01:06:32.920 so we were just taught to make fun of it, like, 1429 01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:36.320 oh well, I ain't no monkey, and then we were 1430 01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:39.119 taught to dismiss and laugh at it. But we never 1431 01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:43.039 actually found out what it was that we disagreed with 1432 01:06:43.159 --> 01:06:44.559 before we disagreed with. 1433 01:06:44.480 --> 01:06:47.000 It, right, yeah, yeah, I uh so. 1434 01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:50.559 My so again just weird for my origins because my 1435 01:06:50.639 --> 01:06:54.000 dad used to be Catholic and he became a Protestant 1436 01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:55.960 when he buried my mom's Yeah, I wonder how that, 1437 01:06:56.400 --> 01:06:58.760 you know why that happened, but you know told him 1438 01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:02.239 now now yeah is real. Yeah, So I guess they 1439 01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:05.639 compromised and started going to the Methodist Church, which Methodism, 1440 01:07:05.719 --> 01:07:08.000 in case you don't know, has some like Catholic over 1441 01:07:08.199 --> 01:07:10.280 like they got bishops and stuff, right, like, they got 1442 01:07:10.280 --> 01:07:13.679 some stuff in there. So being a Methist in Waco 1443 01:07:13.920 --> 01:07:16.360 meant that I guess I didn't realize people saw me 1444 01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:18.320 as the enemy, but I was right. I don't know 1445 01:07:18.320 --> 01:07:20.320 if there was something people ever told me out loud, 1446 01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:23.440 but you know, Guaco, you've been there. David Alivera has 1447 01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:25.480 a great joke about Waco. He says there's more Christians 1448 01:07:25.559 --> 01:07:28.719 than people, which is which is very true. And you 1449 01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:31.360 know Stone's toss away, you're hitting three church windows. 1450 01:07:31.400 --> 01:07:33.840 Okay. So I didn't know that I was the enemy. 1451 01:07:33.880 --> 01:07:34.400 I didn't know. 1452 01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:36.119 That that was the thing until I was at least 1453 01:07:36.119 --> 01:07:39.079 a teenager. And I actually started going to a Baptist 1454 01:07:39.199 --> 01:07:42.119 church in my teenage years, and it was only because 1455 01:07:42.440 --> 01:07:45.000 the boy Scout troop that I went to met at 1456 01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:47.639 that church, and so I just kind of started to 1457 01:07:47.639 --> 01:07:49.480 know people there more and it became easier and I 1458 01:07:49.519 --> 01:07:51.199 went to like the youth group there and stuff right, 1459 01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:54.679 and that's when I realized a big difference in my theology. 1460 01:07:54.719 --> 01:07:56.880 So I also didn't know what evolution. 1461 01:07:56.719 --> 01:07:58.559 Was, but I was kind of like neutral towards it 1462 01:07:58.679 --> 01:08:00.960 until I got to High Scholl and I learned it 1463 01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:02.639 and I was like, oh, okay, I get it. I 1464 01:08:02.679 --> 01:08:04.679 don't see what the big deal was this, This stuff 1465 01:08:04.719 --> 01:08:06.960 makes sense to me. And then I go to church 1466 01:08:07.079 --> 01:08:09.199 and that's when I first was hearing like, oh, yeah, 1467 01:08:09.239 --> 01:08:11.079 this you know in the Baptist Church, they're like, no, 1468 01:08:11.159 --> 01:08:11.840 absolutely not. 1469 01:08:11.920 --> 01:08:13.840 You know, there's Adam and Eve and everything else is 1470 01:08:13.880 --> 01:08:14.159 a lie. 1471 01:08:14.239 --> 01:08:16.560 And I don't know. That's when that cognitive distance really 1472 01:08:16.600 --> 01:08:19.960 starting for me. But yeah, no, evolution was not a problem. 1473 01:08:20.039 --> 01:08:22.760 It was a problem for the people around me definitely, though. 1474 01:08:22.800 --> 01:08:24.960 For sure. You know, it's like I just bought it. 1475 01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:26.279 Oh well, we're you. 1476 01:08:26.279 --> 01:08:29.039 Know, we're the product of a cosmically conjured dirt man 1477 01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:32.079 and rib woman in an enchanted garden with talking reptiles, 1478 01:08:32.199 --> 01:08:35.079 and I'm okay with that. But this idea that you know, well, 1479 01:08:35.119 --> 01:08:37.880 we are evolved creatures, but it was really misrepresented. 1480 01:08:37.920 --> 01:08:40.960 I mean, my theologian father had a master's degree in 1481 01:08:41.079 --> 01:08:42.159 diffity or something. 1482 01:08:42.479 --> 01:08:44.359 Yeah, and I remember him once when I first had 1483 01:08:44.439 --> 01:08:47.359 become an apostate. He was like, so you believe a 1484 01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:51.520 horse can give birth to a rabbit. And I thought, 1485 01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:56.840 you know, this reveals to you a fundamental of not misunderstanding, 1486 01:08:56.880 --> 01:09:01.039 a misrepresentation of how works. 1487 01:09:01.359 --> 01:09:01.560 Right. 1488 01:09:01.880 --> 01:09:05.800 And I also think that many people believe that if 1489 01:09:05.840 --> 01:09:08.279 we are just an animal, or if we are not 1490 01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:14.039 superior to all other things, somehow that cheats the human experience. 1491 01:09:14.079 --> 01:09:16.720 It cheats our worth and value, and it as someone 1492 01:09:16.720 --> 01:09:20.319 who is finally, you know, realized how wrong I was 1493 01:09:20.359 --> 01:09:24.279 about all those funding mythologies and accepted the science of evolution, 1494 01:09:24.920 --> 01:09:29.039 I actually feel better, Like I feel more connected, I'm 1495 01:09:29.079 --> 01:09:32.680 more in awe of the natural world, and and I 1496 01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:34.680 feel a sense of kinship, you know. 1497 01:09:34.800 --> 01:09:37.159 And so you'll go ahead. 1498 01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:39.560 Sorry, I was just going to say I was told 1499 01:09:39.600 --> 01:09:42.319 it was a cheat, and I feel the exact opposite. 1500 01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:43.840 I feel like it was a gift, you know. 1501 01:09:43.960 --> 01:09:44.600 I know. 1502 01:09:44.960 --> 01:09:49.079 Yeah, that's so interesting because I know other content creators 1503 01:09:49.119 --> 01:09:52.680 like yourself, who grew up in a more fundent, like 1504 01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:56.680 fundamental tradition like you did, that have that same sort 1505 01:09:56.680 --> 01:10:02.560 of sort of reaction to you know, the evolution and 1506 01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:04.720 nature and things like that, right where it's like, yeah, 1507 01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:07.760 this was such a big hang up that now you've 1508 01:10:07.760 --> 01:10:09.600 come to peace with it, but it gave you a 1509 01:10:09.640 --> 01:10:12.760 lot of pause, Whereas with my background, it wasn't a 1510 01:10:12.760 --> 01:10:15.239 hang up at all. I was just a Christian and 1511 01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:18.119 I didn't know. I couldn't tell you whether there was 1512 01:10:18.159 --> 01:10:20.279 like a real Adam and Eve or not. I wasn't 1513 01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:24.439 too sure about that. But I didn't have to deconstruct evolution, right, 1514 01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:28.319 I didn't have to deconstruct my entire knowledge basis of 1515 01:10:28.359 --> 01:10:31.479 like what I believe scientifically, right, definitely some science stuff, 1516 01:10:31.520 --> 01:10:35.439 but not like, not that level. And I think that's 1517 01:10:35.520 --> 01:10:38.600 just so fascinating how much of a difference of an 1518 01:10:38.640 --> 01:10:41.199 impact that can have on you after you've you know, 1519 01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:44.479 you've learned to tell the difference between again, like what's 1520 01:10:44.640 --> 01:10:46.960 real and what's not real when it comes to evolution, right, Like, 1521 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:50.279 it's not a duck's turning into people or whatever, it's 1522 01:10:50.319 --> 01:10:53.840 just a series of you know, the long term causal events, right. 1523 01:10:54.239 --> 01:10:58.119 Well, and then when you see religious organizations, denominations, institutions 1524 01:10:58.279 --> 01:11:02.159 confronted with the overwhelming abboutch of evidence saying this is real, 1525 01:11:02.239 --> 01:11:04.680 then they have to adjust. So the Catholic Church is 1526 01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:08.439 the obvious one. They're like, okay, fine, evolution is real. 1527 01:11:08.479 --> 01:11:12.600 It's usually a guided evolution model, and it does makes 1528 01:11:12.600 --> 01:11:15.920 sense to me, but yeah, somehow it's we evolved and 1529 01:11:15.960 --> 01:11:20.319 it looks exactly like the neatory world would act except God. 1530 01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:24.199 And then then you put the apologist in and they 1531 01:11:24.239 --> 01:11:27.520 have Sometimes they'll move the creation model around so that 1532 01:11:27.600 --> 01:11:29.239 it means all kinds of different things. 1533 01:11:29.239 --> 01:11:29.960 So wait a minute. 1534 01:11:30.039 --> 01:11:32.479 Was it a literal six day creation where the actual 1535 01:11:32.520 --> 01:11:35.680 days was the day like millions of years? Was it guided? 1536 01:11:35.680 --> 01:11:37.439 Did he just start and let everything go? Was it 1537 01:11:37.479 --> 01:11:39.199 a watchmaker thing? Was it something else? 1538 01:11:39.640 --> 01:11:40.680 And you know, you can. 1539 01:11:40.600 --> 01:11:43.600 Put a bus load of apologies together on the same 1540 01:11:43.640 --> 01:11:46.720 field trip and they'll probably be arguing within the first 1541 01:11:46.800 --> 01:11:51.720 ten miles of the trip right basics of their faith. 1542 01:11:51.800 --> 01:11:53.439 And I find that telling very. 1543 01:11:53.439 --> 01:11:55.000 Yeah, that is selling something. 1544 01:11:55.159 --> 01:11:57.800 A word you used earlier, which I mean I often use, 1545 01:11:57.880 --> 01:11:59.920 but some somehow the way you said it just made 1546 01:11:59.920 --> 01:12:02.720 me reflect on it a little bit. You describe when 1547 01:12:02.960 --> 01:12:05.520 your relationship to your father, You're like, you know, when 1548 01:12:05.560 --> 01:12:07.960 I became an apost state, which makes it sound so 1549 01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:09.920 serious when you put it that way, right, doesn't it 1550 01:12:09.960 --> 01:12:12.359 when you put a label on it like that, When 1551 01:12:12.399 --> 01:12:13.600 a lot of people's just like, yeah, I. 1552 01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:14.760 Went to church for a little bit and then it 1553 01:12:14.840 --> 01:12:16.720 stopped going. It was a big deal. 1554 01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:19.279 Like, yeah, most people know my story, but for the 1555 01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:24.399 five that don't, I mean mom and dad hardcore theologian level. 1556 01:12:24.640 --> 01:12:27.680 I mean, my mother wrote a Greek New Testament study 1557 01:12:27.720 --> 01:12:30.119 guide which was used at the college level. They wrote 1558 01:12:30.159 --> 01:12:33.439 sermons for pastors they met at a Christian college. They 1559 01:12:33.479 --> 01:12:37.560 were the most serious religious people I had ever met. 1560 01:12:37.600 --> 01:12:40.600 There was no religious small talk. It was Bible literalism. 1561 01:12:40.880 --> 01:12:43.960 It was Christian school, Christian music, Christian friends, Christian church, 1562 01:12:44.039 --> 01:12:49.000 Christian everything. And when I was a Christian radio host 1563 01:12:49.119 --> 01:12:51.880 and a Christian video producer, I served churches all around 1564 01:12:51.880 --> 01:12:53.800 the country that they felt like that I was doing 1565 01:12:53.800 --> 01:12:56.199 God's good work and they were so proud, right, he 1566 01:12:56.960 --> 01:12:59.800 was ministering the gospel and playing to his gifts, and 1567 01:12:59.840 --> 01:13:01.600 we or we could not be prouder. 1568 01:13:02.119 --> 01:13:04.279 Well, what's the worst nightmare of. 1569 01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:08.439 Two people like that, a guy like me then deconstructing 1570 01:13:09.920 --> 01:13:15.960 and becoming a frontline, very public atheist activist. And it 1571 01:13:16.119 --> 01:13:20.479 shattered them. It just broke these two people, and and 1572 01:13:20.560 --> 01:13:23.840 it broke our relationship. And uh, it's one of the 1573 01:13:23.880 --> 01:13:26.640 reasons that I continue to do what I do because 1574 01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:28.960 I hear a lot from a lot of people, and 1575 01:13:28.960 --> 01:13:32.199 and they realize how conditional the love was that they 1576 01:13:32.199 --> 01:13:35.720 were receiving from a lot of people. And I think 1577 01:13:36.920 --> 01:13:42.399 they felt a sense of shame for hurting their families. 1578 01:13:43.359 --> 01:13:46.439 And I'm like, well, that's that's not your fault, Like 1579 01:13:46.800 --> 01:13:49.680 your your desire to live an authentic life first of all, 1580 01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:54.560 would not anger any maximally benevolent deity. 1581 01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:57.079 Yeah right, yeah, it. 1582 01:13:57.039 --> 01:14:00.600 Wouldn't that that deity maximally benevolent would be like, awesome, 1583 01:14:00.800 --> 01:14:04.119 you're doing your best. I appreciate that you got it wrong. Okay, 1584 01:14:04.159 --> 01:14:06.720 no problem, enter into your rest, here's your mansion, have 1585 01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:12.640 a nice life. But I think they carry upon themselves 1586 01:14:12.680 --> 01:14:16.159 this idea that well, I have to keep the peace. Well, 1587 01:14:16.600 --> 01:14:21.439 if you are muting your own values and derailing your 1588 01:14:21.479 --> 01:14:24.880 own authentic journey to keep other people from being uncomfortable, 1589 01:14:24.920 --> 01:14:27.880 that's not peace. That may be an absence of conflict, 1590 01:14:28.279 --> 01:14:31.159 but it's not peace. That's not the same. And everybody 1591 01:14:31.199 --> 01:14:33.920 around you gets to be their authentic self. They're loud 1592 01:14:33.920 --> 01:14:36.199 and proud about what they think, and they expect you 1593 01:14:36.279 --> 01:14:38.159 to sit on your hands or reverse course, to do 1594 01:14:38.199 --> 01:14:40.159 it their way. And a lot of what I do 1595 01:14:40.479 --> 01:14:44.680 is I think fueled by my own experience, my own 1596 01:14:44.760 --> 01:14:48.720 loss of relationships, and the day that I thought, you know, no, 1597 01:14:48.960 --> 01:14:52.800 I got one life. I got one shot, and I'm 1598 01:14:52.840 --> 01:14:54.840 going to try to live it authentically. And the people 1599 01:14:54.840 --> 01:14:57.279 who get it get it, and those who don't there's 1600 01:14:57.319 --> 01:14:58.119 the door, and. 1601 01:14:58.239 --> 01:15:02.640 That's tough, do you know, right, I definitely definitely tough. 1602 01:15:02.680 --> 01:15:05.359 But I know for a fact that you have inspired 1603 01:15:05.720 --> 01:15:09.560 so many people with your own story, and I think 1604 01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:12.560 the world in our community truly is better for I mean, 1605 01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:14.600 I could glaze Seth all day, but but but really, 1606 01:15:14.720 --> 01:15:18.359 Seth is a great voice in our space, and I'm 1607 01:15:18.399 --> 01:15:21.479 proud that I get to know you personally, you know, 1608 01:15:21.560 --> 01:15:22.399 and and and get. 1609 01:15:22.239 --> 01:15:23.960 To work with you on stuff. It's it's it's it's 1610 01:15:23.960 --> 01:15:25.640 been really cool being able to do that. 1611 01:15:26.199 --> 01:15:29.560 So thanks for for being so brave and telling your 1612 01:15:29.560 --> 01:15:30.880 story and doing what you do, man. 1613 01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:33.359 Because I don't you feel brave. Mostly I just feel 1614 01:15:33.399 --> 01:15:34.960 like we're dated now. 1615 01:15:35.039 --> 01:15:36.439 But you know, it was a big deal back when 1616 01:15:36.439 --> 01:15:38.039 it first started, right, I mean when you were when 1617 01:15:38.039 --> 01:15:39.720 you were getting into this, I'm sure it was pretty 1618 01:15:39.760 --> 01:15:40.319 nerve wracking. 1619 01:15:40.520 --> 01:15:40.720 It was. 1620 01:15:41.119 --> 01:15:44.159 It was sleepless nights, and there was no organization like 1621 01:15:44.199 --> 01:15:46.960 Recovering from Religion where you could go in and have 1622 01:15:47.439 --> 01:15:50.800 a listening here, and there are very few online resources. 1623 01:15:50.840 --> 01:15:53.479 I think there was like talk Origins and Atheist Axis 1624 01:15:53.479 --> 01:15:56.760 and a few forums. You know, yeah, but I felt 1625 01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:00.920 very very alone, and and you know, you can really 1626 01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:03.560 see how a lot of people who are going through 1627 01:16:03.560 --> 01:16:07.800 these struggles, cognitive struggles, logical struggles. They know in many 1628 01:16:07.840 --> 01:16:11.039 ways that their fundy faith is focus. 1629 01:16:11.800 --> 01:16:13.479 But you can understand. 1630 01:16:13.000 --> 01:16:16.399 Why they don't want to take those last few steps 1631 01:16:16.439 --> 01:16:22.000 into even agnosticism, why they wear Christianity like a pin 1632 01:16:22.079 --> 01:16:26.880 on their lapel, and because there goes your support system. 1633 01:16:27.359 --> 01:16:29.880 What about your family? Well, what about your spouse who's 1634 01:16:29.880 --> 01:16:32.479 a believer? Will they freak out and say now I 1635 01:16:32.479 --> 01:16:34.000 don't want you to see your kids and you end 1636 01:16:34.079 --> 01:16:36.000 up in court and then your marriage is over? And 1637 01:16:36.039 --> 01:16:38.000 what's that word of them? What if your boss is 1638 01:16:38.039 --> 01:16:41.600 a believer? And who am I? Like? I went through that, 1639 01:16:41.680 --> 01:16:44.399 who if I'm not a believer? Who am I? Right 1640 01:16:44.960 --> 01:16:47.479 after I realized that did buy Christianity, I had to 1641 01:16:47.479 --> 01:16:48.960 go back, point by point through. 1642 01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:50.119 All my other value systems. 1643 01:16:50.159 --> 01:16:52.199 I was like, all right, well, now that I'm not 1644 01:16:52.319 --> 01:16:55.199 filtering everything through my God glasses, how do I feel 1645 01:16:55.239 --> 01:17:00.840 about things like the death penalty and drugs? 1646 01:17:00.840 --> 01:17:03.279 Deconstruction? Man, which that probably wasn't word. 1647 01:17:03.119 --> 01:17:05.680 You used at the time, but I had to figure well, 1648 01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:08.439 what now that I'm not being told what I think? 1649 01:17:09.039 --> 01:17:11.760 What do I think? And that is a process, man, 1650 01:17:12.039 --> 01:17:12.880 It's took forever. 1651 01:17:13.239 --> 01:17:15.920 Absolutely, folks. I just want to say thank you guys 1652 01:17:16.000 --> 01:17:18.880 for dealing with us. While we've had some tech issues 1653 01:17:18.880 --> 01:17:21.039 on our site, it sounds like we have everything figured out. 1654 01:17:21.039 --> 01:17:23.359 Now we've got calls and they want people to talk 1655 01:17:23.399 --> 01:17:25.319 to us of SETH. Maybe we should do what the 1656 01:17:25.319 --> 01:17:28.800 original premise of the show, it tails, and actually talk 1657 01:17:28.840 --> 01:17:30.560 to people I can talk to. First of all, I 1658 01:17:30.560 --> 01:17:33.920 have regrets about our conversation. It's always great, but you know, 1659 01:17:34.760 --> 01:17:36.479 with yeah, let's do it. 1660 01:17:36.520 --> 01:17:39.399 Let's do it. Okay, I'm switching gears here. 1661 01:17:39.439 --> 01:17:42.279 I want to talk to Oh my goodness, we have 1662 01:17:42.319 --> 01:17:45.920 some good ones. Let's talk to Aaron, who's calling in 1663 01:17:45.920 --> 01:17:48.199 from Texas. First, Aaron, I think you were waiting the 1664 01:17:48.199 --> 01:17:51.640 longest here. You're live on the eighth this eightheist experience. 1665 01:17:51.680 --> 01:17:53.239 Oh my god, what's up. How's it going? 1666 01:17:53.600 --> 01:17:56.520 Hey, guys, thanks for taking the call. I just wanted 1667 01:17:56.560 --> 01:17:59.560 to if we're talking, we're getting back on topic, like 1668 01:17:59.600 --> 01:18:02.399 on the UH at the top of the marquee, I 1669 01:18:02.399 --> 01:18:04.239 can speak to that. I did want to say some 1670 01:18:04.680 --> 01:18:09.880 some stuff on the Tails about about evolution. I when 1671 01:18:10.039 --> 01:18:14.920 I was I was already deconverted at this point, but 1672 01:18:15.319 --> 01:18:19.119 for me, it was very eye opening to learn that 1673 01:18:19.680 --> 01:18:25.439 because I wasn't looking at evolution the model seriously enough 1674 01:18:25.680 --> 01:18:30.039 and considering its ratification seriously enough. And also the things 1675 01:18:30.039 --> 01:18:33.119 that I assumed about my theology and when when I 1676 01:18:33.199 --> 01:18:36.079 was a believer. Maybe this was towards the end of it, 1677 01:18:36.119 --> 01:18:37.760 Maybe it was, Maybe it was part of part of 1678 01:18:37.760 --> 01:18:40.239 the deconversion towards the end. You know, it's never like 1679 01:18:40.279 --> 01:18:44.760 one thing, but seeing the incongruity between my theology and 1680 01:18:44.800 --> 01:18:49.039 the and the reality of evolution, Uh, there was never 1681 01:18:49.399 --> 01:18:51.640 If there's never an Adam and Eves, then why did 1682 01:18:51.720 --> 01:18:53.640 Why should I be grateful that we tortured that guy? 1683 01:18:54.800 --> 01:18:55.039 Yeah? 1684 01:18:55.399 --> 01:18:56.479 Yeah, just symbolism. 1685 01:18:56.520 --> 01:18:58.880 Then that means that why why did we torture a guy? 1686 01:18:59.399 --> 01:19:01.359 And then we're happy about it? Well, what do we 1687 01:19:01.640 --> 01:19:03.640 say from if this is symbolism and. 1688 01:19:05.119 --> 01:19:07.359 If evolution is real, then. 1689 01:19:07.279 --> 01:19:10.560 There never was a first sin, because there would need 1690 01:19:10.600 --> 01:19:11.960 to be a day that there was a first day 1691 01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:13.960 there was a human to be held responsible for that. 1692 01:19:14.560 --> 01:19:15.319 Yep, And we. 1693 01:19:15.279 --> 01:19:17.439 Didn't get a day one of having a human being 1694 01:19:17.479 --> 01:19:20.319 because we're in this drift of life that we call 1695 01:19:20.439 --> 01:19:23.359 human today, which will be called what later on? Who knows? 1696 01:19:23.359 --> 01:19:23.640 Who knows? 1697 01:19:23.680 --> 01:19:26.520 What they're going to call what we are today later on? Right, absolutely, 1698 01:19:26.600 --> 01:19:30.119 at what point were our ancestors killing each other and 1699 01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:32.760 then a day crosses and you guys are human now 1700 01:19:32.960 --> 01:19:35.680 and this is now fucked up in a sin and 1701 01:19:35.760 --> 01:19:37.199 you're going to need some salvation for it. 1702 01:19:37.279 --> 01:19:38.640 But we got I agree with you, Aaron. 1703 01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:40.640 This is the one thing I agree with Young Earth 1704 01:19:40.680 --> 01:19:44.760 Gracious about, which is that evolution kind of throws original 1705 01:19:44.800 --> 01:19:47.000 sin out the window and makes kind of the whole 1706 01:19:47.000 --> 01:19:49.640 Bible narrative that makes sense, right? I know Catholics have 1707 01:19:50.039 --> 01:19:51.840 some kinds of answers to it. They don't make sense 1708 01:19:51.880 --> 01:19:53.560 what we already talked about that It just it kind 1709 01:19:53.560 --> 01:19:55.479 of doesn't work. What does guided evolution mean? What does 1710 01:19:55.520 --> 01:19:57.479 the entire story mean? What about all these times where 1711 01:19:57.479 --> 01:20:00.359 they kept track of the individual dates of how old 1712 01:20:00.439 --> 01:20:02.680 Methuselah was and everybody else in the Bible? Right, Like, 1713 01:20:02.920 --> 01:20:06.439 what was all that tracking for? It wasn't for literal times. 1714 01:20:06.479 --> 01:20:09.840 I guess you could say their theological dates or whatever ages. 1715 01:20:09.880 --> 01:20:11.159 But you know you can. 1716 01:20:11.079 --> 01:20:14.439 Only get that so far, right until you just don't 1717 01:20:14.439 --> 01:20:17.039 have a history anymore, you just have stories, right, So yeah, 1718 01:20:17.039 --> 01:20:20.199 I agree with you, it doesn't make sense, and it's 1719 01:20:20.239 --> 01:20:22.399 really tough to understand everything. 1720 01:20:22.640 --> 01:20:25.159 But most Christians I have known have said to me 1721 01:20:25.439 --> 01:20:30.600 that that at least when we get into reasonable conversations. 1722 01:20:29.239 --> 01:20:31.159 About about like, there's a lot of. 1723 01:20:31.199 --> 01:20:35.000 Christians that will concede that they believe in evolution, they 1724 01:20:35.039 --> 01:20:37.880 believe in a long history of the universe. They do 1725 01:20:38.039 --> 01:20:41.560 not see then they don't hold up their story against 1726 01:20:41.600 --> 01:20:44.279 the reality of history and then say, well, when. 1727 01:20:44.119 --> 01:20:44.760 Did what happen? 1728 01:20:45.279 --> 01:20:47.359 Yeah, and what exactly does that mean? 1729 01:20:47.439 --> 01:20:50.119 Because your belief is some crazy stuff. 1730 01:20:50.199 --> 01:20:54.439 Not to have those answers, like those incongruencies settled, you know. 1731 01:20:54.920 --> 01:20:58.159 I understanding agree, Yeah, on the same. 1732 01:20:58.039 --> 01:21:00.359 Page there, man, I don't know you're preaching to the choir, 1733 01:21:00.680 --> 01:21:02.119 but I don't know what else you want from me 1734 01:21:02.199 --> 01:21:03.880 on that other than yeah, I totally agree. 1735 01:21:04.199 --> 01:21:06.479 I guess I think Seth agrees too. I agree. 1736 01:21:07.039 --> 01:21:10.520 Yeah, I did want to I did want to say 1737 01:21:10.520 --> 01:21:13.840 about the about about giving God your money, the yeah, 1738 01:21:14.600 --> 01:21:18.279 go for when your when your orientation is life in 1739 01:21:18.319 --> 01:21:23.520 life is about uh being dutiful and you know, like serving, Well, 1740 01:21:24.239 --> 01:21:29.000 you're not starting from a standpoint of loving yourself, knowing yourself. 1741 01:21:29.600 --> 01:21:33.399 You are called to be obedient and to serve that 1742 01:21:33.439 --> 01:21:37.319 can get you into as wild and extreme of financial 1743 01:21:37.359 --> 01:21:40.640 bleedout as your group can get creative in their needs. 1744 01:21:40.800 --> 01:21:43.600 You know, uh, you you could be with your faith 1745 01:21:43.680 --> 01:21:46.439 one building project away from being wiped out for a 1746 01:21:46.479 --> 01:21:52.000 retirement because because you've already decided that well being is 1747 01:21:52.359 --> 01:21:55.439 something that God will take care of for you, not something. 1748 01:21:55.119 --> 01:21:56.680 That you look at for yourself. 1749 01:21:57.319 --> 01:22:01.399 And so yeah, that the model gets. 1750 01:22:01.279 --> 01:22:04.079 You vulnerable, keep you vulnerable. Right, that's a good insight. 1751 01:22:04.239 --> 01:22:09.359 Yeah, No, Christianity really isn't about self reflection in that sense. Right, 1752 01:22:09.399 --> 01:22:12.640 It's not really about knowing yourself. You already know yourself, 1753 01:22:12.680 --> 01:22:15.039 you're sinful. What else is there ney to know? You 1754 01:22:15.039 --> 01:22:16.039 need to get right with God? 1755 01:22:16.159 --> 01:22:16.399 Right? 1756 01:22:16.800 --> 01:22:20.800 Yeah, that's an interesting thing, and that's probably why fundamentalists 1757 01:22:20.800 --> 01:22:24.439 also probably have problems with things like psychology and therapy 1758 01:22:24.479 --> 01:22:26.600 and things like that, because when you realize, oh wait, 1759 01:22:26.640 --> 01:22:29.199 it's actually good to have healthy like personal boundaries with 1760 01:22:29.239 --> 01:22:32.079 people or to understand yourself better, and why you may 1761 01:22:32.119 --> 01:22:35.000 have some issues because people actually struggle with things differently, 1762 01:22:35.119 --> 01:22:38.039 and suddenly your model of why people do the things 1763 01:22:38.079 --> 01:22:41.600 that they do is a bit more towards naturalist reasons 1764 01:22:41.720 --> 01:22:45.039 rather than everybody sins because somebody eight and apples six 1765 01:22:45.119 --> 01:22:48.279 thousand years ago, right, So yeah, that totally makes sense. 1766 01:22:48.279 --> 01:22:50.359 I think that's a good insight you guys have. 1767 01:22:50.319 --> 01:22:53.800 Any what did you guys think boundaries were before? Like 1768 01:22:54.399 --> 01:22:57.560 I definitely understand why boundaries now and how to avoid 1769 01:22:57.600 --> 01:23:01.039 getting like taking advantage of financially, but yeah, I didn't 1770 01:23:01.039 --> 01:23:03.520 have good boundaries context for boundaries were terrible before. 1771 01:23:04.039 --> 01:23:05.920 Speaking for myself, and I want to hear Seth's answer, 1772 01:23:05.960 --> 01:23:08.600 but yeah, I did. Part of my deconstruction was just 1773 01:23:08.800 --> 01:23:11.720 figuring that out and having good boundaries and you know, 1774 01:23:11.760 --> 01:23:13.880 not to get too personal, but even with my own family, 1775 01:23:13.920 --> 01:23:17.319 when I started to become more involved in activism and stuff, 1776 01:23:17.319 --> 01:23:20.199 figuring out boundaries around that, you know, they they told 1777 01:23:20.239 --> 01:23:22.239 me that you can't say this, you can't talk about this, 1778 01:23:22.399 --> 01:23:24.720 and it's like, well, I'm an adult actually, and I'm 1779 01:23:25.239 --> 01:23:27.880 I'm going to do these things and you may not 1780 01:23:28.039 --> 01:23:30.039 like my decisions, and that's just what it means to 1781 01:23:30.079 --> 01:23:33.560 be a person, you know. So yeah, definitely Christianity did 1782 01:23:33.560 --> 01:23:35.840 not teach me good boundaries of anything. 1783 01:23:35.840 --> 01:23:36.720 It did the opposite. 1784 01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:40.359 It told me to be trusting of people that had 1785 01:23:40.680 --> 01:23:44.399 a power dynamic over me, right, in ways, some more 1786 01:23:44.520 --> 01:23:45.319 justified than others. 1787 01:23:45.399 --> 01:23:47.760 Right, So it's it's it's a it's a bad thing 1788 01:23:47.800 --> 01:23:48.119 for sure. 1789 01:23:48.159 --> 01:23:49.800 I think that's part of the reason why people have 1790 01:23:49.840 --> 01:23:54.319 so many stories about things going wrong in a church environment, 1791 01:23:54.359 --> 01:23:56.960 because those lines definitely get blurred. 1792 01:23:57.039 --> 01:23:59.560 But yeah, I said, I mean, I imagine you feel 1793 01:23:59.560 --> 01:24:00.000 pretty simple. 1794 01:24:00.720 --> 01:24:04.600 Well, if you look at literal Christianity, according to the Bible, 1795 01:24:04.920 --> 01:24:08.640 it's an authoritarian religion. So there's a model where you 1796 01:24:08.840 --> 01:24:11.840 are to respond to authority that has been placed over you. 1797 01:24:12.279 --> 01:24:15.399 And the parental model is a great example. Honor thy 1798 01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:18.359 father and thy mothers. So the way it goes, and 1799 01:24:18.439 --> 01:24:20.199 the way it went for me was even when I 1800 01:24:20.239 --> 01:24:23.000 was a man in his late thirties, I was supposed 1801 01:24:23.000 --> 01:24:26.119 to honor my mother and father, which meant what every 1802 01:24:26.119 --> 01:24:29.319 time they send me a text, sermon or an email, 1803 01:24:29.479 --> 01:24:32.039 or or they call, or they say whatever they want 1804 01:24:32.039 --> 01:24:34.039 to say about how I'm going to hell and I'm 1805 01:24:34.079 --> 01:24:36.760 embarrassing the family and blah blah blah, I'm supposed to 1806 01:24:36.760 --> 01:24:41.399 simply abide it because respect your elders, Honor thy father 1807 01:24:41.520 --> 01:24:42.119 and thy mother. 1808 01:24:42.199 --> 01:24:42.960 They are your parents. 1809 01:24:43.000 --> 01:24:45.399 I'm your mother, I'm your father, and a lot of 1810 01:24:45.399 --> 01:24:49.800 that kind of authoritarianism is baked into these types of models, 1811 01:24:49.880 --> 01:24:51.720 and it's not just religious. You can find them in 1812 01:24:51.760 --> 01:24:56.840 any high control culture. The pastor's shepherd model fits there 1813 01:24:56.880 --> 01:24:59.479 as well. And I had to come to a point 1814 01:24:59.479 --> 01:25:02.760 where I'm like, no, actually, just because we share some 1815 01:25:02.920 --> 01:25:06.720 DNA in a specific way, or because you're older, or 1816 01:25:06.760 --> 01:25:09.560 because you raised me, and I appreciate the sacrifices you made, 1817 01:25:09.560 --> 01:25:12.720 blah blah blah, but you don't get to step into 1818 01:25:12.760 --> 01:25:15.479 the over the threshold of my private life and then 1819 01:25:15.560 --> 01:25:19.239 dictate who I am, what I think, what my values are, 1820 01:25:19.399 --> 01:25:22.159 how I take this journey. And it was tough because 1821 01:25:22.199 --> 01:25:26.279 I'll tell you, family members give themselves permission. Religious authority 1822 01:25:26.319 --> 01:25:29.399 figures give themselves permission. There are a lot of people 1823 01:25:29.479 --> 01:25:32.119 in our lives that give themselves permission to do and 1824 01:25:32.159 --> 01:25:34.800 say things that we would never abide from anybody else. 1825 01:25:35.279 --> 01:25:37.600 And to be able to say no and draw that 1826 01:25:37.720 --> 01:25:40.520 hard line and say if you cross this, there will 1827 01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:44.279 be consequences. You know, respect, I think starts with self respect. 1828 01:25:44.720 --> 01:25:48.239 Once I realize that I'm not saying the journey was 1829 01:25:48.399 --> 01:25:52.680 easier emotionally, but it was clearer, The decisions were clear, 1830 01:25:52.720 --> 01:25:54.520 and it was easier to be able to live an 1831 01:25:54.520 --> 01:25:56.640 authentic life without guild and shame. 1832 01:25:57.119 --> 01:26:00.000 Yeah, for sure, Aaron, I totally want to hear you respond. 1833 01:26:00.159 --> 01:26:01.720 I'm gonna have to cut you off, though, because we're 1834 01:26:01.720 --> 01:26:03.159 getting close to the end and I want to make 1835 01:26:03.159 --> 01:26:04.800 sure we get at least one other caller in. 1836 01:26:05.159 --> 01:26:06.680 So I'm just gonna say thank you so much for 1837 01:26:06.760 --> 01:26:07.119 your call. 1838 01:26:07.239 --> 01:26:10.279 I hope you got some of the conversation you're looking for, 1839 01:26:10.520 --> 01:26:12.600 and I hope you have a good rest of your Sunday. 1840 01:26:12.880 --> 01:26:14.479 But I'm going to try to move things on very 1841 01:26:14.520 --> 01:26:17.560 quickly because making up for some lack of time without 1842 01:26:17.600 --> 01:26:19.520 calls seth. I want to try to at least one 1843 01:26:19.560 --> 01:26:21.399 more call with you if we have time for that, 1844 01:26:21.279 --> 01:26:23.439 and that cool with you, Let's do it, Okay, moving on, 1845 01:26:23.840 --> 01:26:25.880 this is a really interesting one. I'm going to talk 1846 01:26:25.920 --> 01:26:29.159 to Alison, who's calling in. I think this is Missouri. 1847 01:26:29.760 --> 01:26:32.960 Alison wants to talk to us about how math is 1848 01:26:33.000 --> 01:26:37.279 what people consider a god. Very interested in this premise, Allison, 1849 01:26:37.319 --> 01:26:37.840 what do you got? 1850 01:26:39.119 --> 01:26:39.239 Hi? 1851 01:26:39.760 --> 01:26:39.840 So? 1852 01:26:39.960 --> 01:26:44.239 Yeah, I recently I've always been table at math. I 1853 01:26:44.359 --> 01:26:48.920 recently was looking into the Doublestit experiment, which got me 1854 01:26:49.079 --> 01:26:50.319 heavily interested. 1855 01:26:49.920 --> 01:26:51.880 In see radical physics. 1856 01:26:51.640 --> 01:26:54.439 Then why I looked into that? Then more I realized 1857 01:26:54.960 --> 01:26:57.640 math is the only thing that trad be considered the God. 1858 01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:00.960 And I think math is the best counter argument to 1859 01:27:01.199 --> 01:27:04.720 most seists because it can be plugged in the face 1860 01:27:04.800 --> 01:27:07.439 of God. Why is there something that stood nothing well 1861 01:27:07.439 --> 01:27:09.800 because of math? Why are there laws of physics? 1862 01:27:09.840 --> 01:27:10.479 What that's about? 1863 01:27:10.960 --> 01:27:12.439 What is there outside of the universe? 1864 01:27:12.640 --> 01:27:14.479 Math? You can replace anything. 1865 01:27:14.520 --> 01:27:16.840 Math is outside of time and space. Math is the 1866 01:27:16.840 --> 01:27:18.239 only thing that truly exists. 1867 01:27:18.600 --> 01:27:22.560 Can Can you define what you mean by God? Yeah? 1868 01:27:22.680 --> 01:27:26.000 Okay? So by God I would mean I don't know. 1869 01:27:26.119 --> 01:27:28.000 That's actually kind of hard in this sense. 1870 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:33.479 I would say today God is something that is all powerful. 1871 01:27:33.640 --> 01:27:37.479 It so and by all pawerful, I mean this praphic 1872 01:27:37.520 --> 01:27:39.880 is the wrong word. Nothing can happen without it. It 1873 01:27:40.000 --> 01:27:44.239 is the reason for all things as well as it exists. 1874 01:27:44.319 --> 01:27:47.039 It's not bound by space of time. If the universe 1875 01:27:47.039 --> 01:27:49.560 needs to exist today, it would still be completely unfaced. 1876 01:27:50.720 --> 01:27:52.560 Okay, I don't know. 1877 01:27:52.600 --> 01:27:55.000 I don't know if philosophers or people who study math, 1878 01:27:55.000 --> 01:27:57.159 and people who have PhDs and more letters in front 1879 01:27:57.159 --> 01:27:59.399 of the name than me actually agree on the idea 1880 01:27:59.439 --> 01:28:04.079 that math actually exists as like an idea like independent 1881 01:28:04.119 --> 01:28:06.039 of people like I think the jury is still out 1882 01:28:06.079 --> 01:28:09.439 on that whether it's just an abstract thing or if 1883 01:28:09.479 --> 01:28:12.159 it like concretely exists so like to even call it 1884 01:28:12.199 --> 01:28:16.479 god or to give it any more like credence, then 1885 01:28:16.760 --> 01:28:20.279 it's it's a way of you know, solving problems and 1886 01:28:20.359 --> 01:28:23.399 describing the universe kind of gives me pause, Like why 1887 01:28:23.479 --> 01:28:26.239 call it god? Why not just say you know, we 1888 01:28:26.520 --> 01:28:28.960 know things because of math and just leave it at that. 1889 01:28:29.720 --> 01:28:30.920 Well, my problem got. 1890 01:28:30.800 --> 01:28:34.079 Would be that now I again, like you just said, 1891 01:28:34.159 --> 01:28:35.199 people with me weigh more. 1892 01:28:35.159 --> 01:28:38.520 Leves in front of the name. I'm an educated affirm. 1893 01:28:38.319 --> 01:28:42.119 But from my looking into the both sides that argument, 1894 01:28:42.479 --> 01:28:45.399 I think that both sides use math in a different way. 1895 01:28:46.439 --> 01:28:49.680 When I say math, I usually mean true math, not 1896 01:28:49.840 --> 01:28:53.199 what we do. I consider what we do like algebra 1897 01:28:53.479 --> 01:28:55.600 and geometry and arithmetic and all. 1898 01:28:55.600 --> 01:28:56.199 That as well. 1899 01:28:56.399 --> 01:28:58.680 Hang on, wait, let's math too, though. I don't know 1900 01:28:58.680 --> 01:29:01.239 why you're saying that's not true math, right. 1901 01:29:02.439 --> 01:29:06.039 My thought is that's not actually math, that's our attempt 1902 01:29:06.039 --> 01:29:06.920 to understand math. 1903 01:29:07.319 --> 01:29:09.560 I don't know what that means. How is that our 1904 01:29:09.600 --> 01:29:12.239 attempt on mean math? Why is that not just math? 1905 01:29:13.800 --> 01:29:18.279 So my thought is that the way that like pianists, 1906 01:29:18.399 --> 01:29:22.680 orbit or anything that gravity, everything is dictated by something 1907 01:29:23.439 --> 01:29:26.319 that's something is actual math, and what we call math 1908 01:29:26.840 --> 01:29:30.039 is our attempt to understand what that is. And I've 1909 01:29:30.039 --> 01:29:33.640 been looking into Indepparently some of the greatest mathematical minds 1910 01:29:33.720 --> 01:29:36.000 ever said that we are children played with blacks when 1911 01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:37.079 it comes to actual math. 1912 01:29:39.279 --> 01:29:42.920 I mean, I just I don't know what to do 1913 01:29:43.000 --> 01:29:44.239 with this, Sam, I don't know. 1914 01:29:46.239 --> 01:29:46.479 Well. 1915 01:29:47.119 --> 01:29:50.159 When I hear math used in this particular context of 1916 01:29:50.239 --> 01:29:52.680 this conversation, it seems to be a sense of agency, 1917 01:29:52.920 --> 01:29:58.199 like God agency. What I understood, math is simply a 1918 01:29:58.239 --> 01:30:00.680 tool that we use to measure the proper of our 1919 01:30:01.199 --> 01:30:07.880 natural world. So I don't see mathematics as having agency. 1920 01:30:08.520 --> 01:30:11.279 And when we talk about the orbits of the planets 1921 01:30:11.279 --> 01:30:14.600 and the nature of the cosmos, we're simply talking about matter, 1922 01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:17.680 the laws of physics, et cetera. Yeah, but I don't 1923 01:30:17.680 --> 01:30:21.439 think any of those things require agency. There's cause and effect, 1924 01:30:22.119 --> 01:30:26.560 something happened. But I don't think mathematics as God. When 1925 01:30:26.560 --> 01:30:31.359 I think of God, I think of a some entity 1926 01:30:31.439 --> 01:30:37.319 with godlike powers, property, intelligence, and agency, purposefully sending us 1927 01:30:37.359 --> 01:30:41.800 to a specific destination I think math is a tool, right, 1928 01:30:42.279 --> 01:30:43.840 but math is not an agent. 1929 01:30:44.239 --> 01:30:45.960 And yeah, I want to add on to that, Seth, 1930 01:30:46.000 --> 01:30:48.840 because this sounds like a situation where we're confusing the 1931 01:30:48.880 --> 01:30:52.119 map for the territory a little bit, right, Like, I 1932 01:30:52.159 --> 01:30:55.760 don't know if math again exists in the abstract as 1933 01:30:55.840 --> 01:31:00.239 a literal object in nature. I think it's more like 1934 01:31:00.279 --> 01:31:03.039 you said, it's a tool, it's a descriptor. I don't 1935 01:31:03.039 --> 01:31:06.119 know if that means that you know, the Earth orbits 1936 01:31:06.119 --> 01:31:09.560 the sun literally because of math as some sort of divine, 1937 01:31:10.079 --> 01:31:13.319 sort of platonic abstract. I think it's it's more just, 1938 01:31:13.640 --> 01:31:17.159 you know, a way that we're describing a relationship between 1939 01:31:17.199 --> 01:31:22.680 two bodies, planetary bodies. Right, So I don't know, Alison, 1940 01:31:22.680 --> 01:31:23.199 what do you think? 1941 01:31:23.600 --> 01:31:23.800 Well? 1942 01:31:23.840 --> 01:31:26.560 I think that I can really agree math pass agency 1943 01:31:26.600 --> 01:31:29.800 and I should have taught with God. The chance is 1944 01:31:30.880 --> 01:31:33.800 math is the only thing concerner of the God. But 1945 01:31:33.840 --> 01:31:36.159 it has no will, desire or anything. 1946 01:31:36.199 --> 01:31:38.640 It just simply is. But not my thoughts. 1947 01:31:38.720 --> 01:31:43.439 So I think so math being an immovable constant, and 1948 01:31:44.600 --> 01:31:47.720 let's call it reliable. A reliable constant would mean it 1949 01:31:47.720 --> 01:31:52.479 would be the most godlike thing in lieu of an 1950 01:31:52.520 --> 01:31:54.720 actual deity is that right. 1951 01:31:54.800 --> 01:31:56.960 I think it's really exists. It could be in any 1952 01:31:56.960 --> 01:32:00.640 way considered to be God. But okay, comes down to 1953 01:32:01.359 --> 01:32:05.520 two different use of the word math. And I get 1954 01:32:05.520 --> 01:32:07.439 that because I'm counted on a lot when talking about this. 1955 01:32:07.640 --> 01:32:11.119 It's this this mouth, which is like algebra and all 1956 01:32:11.119 --> 01:32:13.520 of that, which is the tools. 1957 01:32:13.199 --> 01:32:14.920 We use, and those are tools, and. 1958 01:32:14.960 --> 01:32:18.319 Okay, decide how bodies interacting everything. What I'm talking about 1959 01:32:18.399 --> 01:32:21.439 is actual interaction is going on themselves. 1960 01:32:21.720 --> 01:32:24.239 Yeah, just to wrap this up because unfortunately we don't 1961 01:32:24.279 --> 01:32:26.319 have a lot of time. Allison, if you're using this 1962 01:32:26.560 --> 01:32:28.680 to talk to people about it, my take is you 1963 01:32:28.680 --> 01:32:31.520 should not do this because I think you're talking to 1964 01:32:31.560 --> 01:32:36.079 two fairly educated people who are still having trouble understanding 1965 01:32:36.159 --> 01:32:38.960 even the basic premise of this argument here, and that 1966 01:32:39.479 --> 01:32:42.279 might be a key in letting you know that maybe 1967 01:32:42.279 --> 01:32:44.399 this needs to be workshopped a little bit more before 1968 01:32:44.439 --> 01:32:47.960 you go on using this, because I don't want the 1969 01:32:48.079 --> 01:32:50.960 Christians to look at atheists and think that we don't 1970 01:32:51.000 --> 01:32:53.800 know what the hell we're talking about because you're bringing 1971 01:32:53.880 --> 01:32:56.720 up some things about math being God that they can't understand, 1972 01:32:56.720 --> 01:32:58.880 because I can't understand it fully either. 1973 01:32:58.880 --> 01:33:01.199 At the point I mean my problem, maman, I'm not 1974 01:33:01.760 --> 01:33:02.880 it might be as opposed. 1975 01:33:03.000 --> 01:33:03.640 You just don't know. 1976 01:33:03.800 --> 01:33:06.159 You know, there's a difference between being right and being 1977 01:33:06.199 --> 01:33:09.720 convincing right and right now, I'm not convinced about this idea, 1978 01:33:09.960 --> 01:33:11.560 so maybe it's. 1979 01:33:11.399 --> 01:33:14.079 Not under the workshop something to chew on though. Thank 1980 01:33:14.119 --> 01:33:15.800 you very much, thank. 1981 01:33:15.640 --> 01:33:16.319 You for your feedback. 1982 01:33:16.359 --> 01:33:19.439 And it was more I use it in response to 1983 01:33:19.520 --> 01:33:21.600 when people start trying to plug God the things off 1984 01:33:21.600 --> 01:33:23.520 the rock and plug mouth into the same thing. But 1985 01:33:24.239 --> 01:33:27.680 I think, yeah, I get that it doesn't make sense 1986 01:33:27.720 --> 01:33:30.239 to most people because I came over the thought in 1987 01:33:30.279 --> 01:33:33.399 a very manic episode. So it's my manic thoughts. I 1988 01:33:33.439 --> 01:33:34.920 need to like streamline them. 1989 01:33:35.279 --> 01:33:35.800 I gotcha. 1990 01:33:35.920 --> 01:33:39.119 Well, just again, be careful when you use these analogies 1991 01:33:39.119 --> 01:33:41.840 because people like really, they get hung up on that 1992 01:33:41.880 --> 01:33:44.640 God word and they will argue with you to death 1993 01:33:44.720 --> 01:33:47.640 about what that means. Right, So you know, maybe a 1994 01:33:47.640 --> 01:33:50.520 different strategy is in order. We're talking about these things. 1995 01:33:50.560 --> 01:33:52.479 But appreciate you sharing the idea, and I hope you 1996 01:33:52.520 --> 01:33:56.439 have a great rest of your Sunday. And with that, folks, 1997 01:33:56.439 --> 01:33:58.399 we got to start wrapping things up. I want to 1998 01:33:58.439 --> 01:34:02.479 thank my special awesome guests. Seth Andrews for joining us. Seth, 1999 01:34:02.520 --> 01:34:05.479 thanks so much for being on the show today. If 2000 01:34:05.479 --> 01:34:07.520 people want to find more of your stuff, where should 2001 01:34:07.520 --> 01:34:07.760 they go? 2002 01:34:08.079 --> 01:34:09.039 Oh, I'm easy to find. 2003 01:34:09.119 --> 01:34:12.159 I just got to my website Seth Andrews dot com. 2004 01:34:12.199 --> 01:34:13.680 You'll find links to the stuff I do. 2005 01:34:14.079 --> 01:34:16.920 And I host a couple of podcasts and written a 2006 01:34:16.960 --> 01:34:19.560 few books and just whatever Seth Andrews dot com. 2007 01:34:19.560 --> 01:34:20.920 But it was always good to hang out. 2008 01:34:20.960 --> 01:34:23.760 It's, you know, it's fun to it's fun to have 2009 01:34:23.880 --> 01:34:25.800 conversations about conversations. 2010 01:34:25.800 --> 01:34:26.880 And I think that was a lot of. 2011 01:34:26.840 --> 01:34:29.880 What happened today, even beyond the calls and and I'm 2012 01:34:30.039 --> 01:34:32.560 I'm honored to have been invited. So thanks to everybody 2013 01:34:32.600 --> 01:34:34.479 for letting me play in the big kids table here. 2014 01:34:34.640 --> 01:34:37.880 Oh absolutely, it's always great having you real quickly, folks, 2015 01:34:37.880 --> 01:34:40.920 do before you go, just a quick reminder our back 2016 01:34:40.960 --> 01:34:44.720 cruise and that's happening this year is August fifteenth, it's 2017 01:34:44.760 --> 01:34:47.600 two weeks away. So we still have tickets on sale 2018 01:34:47.680 --> 01:34:50.119 now and they're going fast. Over two thirds of our 2019 01:34:50.159 --> 01:34:52.720 available tickets I have already been sold. If you're in 2020 01:34:52.760 --> 01:34:54.520 case you're not are familiar, it's you know, we all 2021 01:34:54.520 --> 01:34:56.520 get to hang out on a boat on a river 2022 01:34:56.720 --> 01:34:59.439 down in Austin and it's awesome. We also have a 2023 01:34:58.880 --> 01:35:02.600 special guest lecture that Friday, and we're gonna have all 2024 01:35:02.640 --> 01:35:06.039 of our ACA shows, including Atheists Experience filmed live at 2025 01:35:06.039 --> 01:35:08.359 the free Thowt Library that Sunday. So our guest that 2026 01:35:08.399 --> 01:35:11.479 week and will be genetically Modified Skeptic, the Antibot Thinker, 2027 01:35:11.560 --> 01:35:15.680 Godless Engineer, Secularity Kelly Laughlin. Of course myself will also 2028 01:35:15.760 --> 01:35:18.640 be there, so look forward to more announcements in the 2029 01:35:18.680 --> 01:35:20.640 next couple of weeks for any other hosts that are attending, 2030 01:35:20.640 --> 01:35:23.720 but tickets for that are available ACA Dot Show slash 2031 01:35:23.880 --> 01:35:25.560 Back Cruise. I also need to give a huge shout 2032 01:35:25.600 --> 01:35:27.359 out to the crew that helped make the show happen 2033 01:35:27.720 --> 01:35:32.680 and are helped out with some amazing, amazing production today. 2034 01:35:32.720 --> 01:35:36.319 So thank you crew for doing what you do. Really 2035 01:35:36.399 --> 01:35:39.079 appreciate it, and they really are beautiful people, aren't they. 2036 01:35:40.079 --> 01:35:42.359 If you want to you got to be born with that. 2037 01:35:42.600 --> 01:35:43.560 You can't just fake. 2038 01:35:44.039 --> 01:35:44.520 I agree. 2039 01:35:44.880 --> 01:35:46.880 If you want to be one of these attractive crew 2040 01:35:46.920 --> 01:35:49.720 members and be a guest on all of our shows, 2041 01:35:50.159 --> 01:35:51.960 or maybe even become a host, We're always looking for 2042 01:35:52.000 --> 01:35:56.159 more people, so email volunteer at Atheist Hyphencommunity dot org 2043 01:35:56.640 --> 01:35:59.479 to get involved. And one special shout out again to 2044 01:35:59.600 --> 01:36:02.760 blind Life, our backup host who was very frantically waiving 2045 01:36:03.439 --> 01:36:04.319 for many of our. 2046 01:36:04.159 --> 01:36:06.840 Calls and also gave you a quick. 2047 01:36:06.600 --> 01:36:08.600 Message on something by like typing it on his phone 2048 01:36:08.680 --> 01:36:10.279 and then showing it with the camera, which was a 2049 01:36:10.319 --> 01:36:12.720 good technique to get my attention to keep blind one 2050 01:36:12.840 --> 01:36:16.279 me for doing that, and man's that's it. That's what 2051 01:36:16.319 --> 01:36:19.920 we got, you know, Seth, thanks again for coming. Any 2052 01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:22.720 any final thoughts before we wrap things up today. 2053 01:36:22.680 --> 01:36:26.520 No, I think, honestly, I enjoy the idea of talking 2054 01:36:26.560 --> 01:36:29.600 about issues in relation to is the REGD a smarther 2055 01:36:29.680 --> 01:36:34.239 spirits ghost supernatural? I do think though, that if there 2056 01:36:34.319 --> 01:36:38.520 is a maxim only benevolent God, that deity would not 2057 01:36:38.760 --> 01:36:43.399 need an apologist like one of our the pithy insect 2058 01:36:43.520 --> 01:36:48.920 earthlings to explain him. It's almost like when someone hands 2059 01:36:48.960 --> 01:36:52.399 you an apologetics book that explains the Bible. I'm like, 2060 01:36:52.800 --> 01:36:54.920 why do I need a book that explains the book? 2061 01:36:55.199 --> 01:36:57.239 Why does there rather the book by the other guy? 2062 01:36:57.439 --> 01:36:59.720 Disagree with your book that explains the book? And I 2063 01:36:59.800 --> 01:37:03.880 just think an omni benevolent, maximally benevolent Deity would have 2064 01:37:03.920 --> 01:37:06.720 already cleared it up where there would be no ambiguity, 2065 01:37:07.439 --> 01:37:11.399 furious minds would have been satiated, and the conversation would 2066 01:37:11.439 --> 01:37:14.960 be over. And you know, so, I find that it's 2067 01:37:15.000 --> 01:37:18.199 interesting when you find that people have decided God has 2068 01:37:18.199 --> 01:37:21.039 appointed me to defend him as a weird position to take. 2069 01:37:21.119 --> 01:37:23.039 God should be able to do his own dirty work. 2070 01:37:23.079 --> 01:37:25.720 But it's been fun hanging out with everybody. I'm heading 2071 01:37:25.760 --> 01:37:27.720 out to the tennis court and to go play a 2072 01:37:27.840 --> 01:37:30.159 match and hopefully not suck. And I will see you 2073 01:37:30.159 --> 01:37:32.560 back here on the next time we do the thing. 2074 01:37:32.680 --> 01:37:36.720 Okay, sounds great, seth sounds great, folks, Thanks again for watching. 2075 01:37:37.359 --> 01:37:39.680 We'll see y'all next Sunday. Y'all have a good one. 2076 01:37:39.880 --> 01:37:40.920 Thanks later. 2077 01:38:01.520 --> 01:38:29.960 Ellen. Watch Talk Eathan Live Sundays at one pm Central 2078 01:38:30.119 --> 01:38:32.760 and call into the show at five one two nine 2079 01:38:32.880 --> 01:38:36.520 nine one nine two four two, or connect to the 2080 01:38:36.560 --> 01:38:39.880 show online at a c A dot show slash Call