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Speaker 1: All right, we are getting live here. Welcome everybody. I

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hope you can hear me just now clicking on. We

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want to make sure do the audio test. Make sure

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everybody can hear us. Fine, but I'm sure we're gonna

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be getting fussing, echoes, fussing. Can everybody hear me? Okay?

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Let it catch up here? Make sure they can hear us.

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Speaker 2: M delicious.

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Speaker 1: All right, everybody can hear me now if you would,

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we have father, a deacon and an eyas with us again.

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Give us a little sound check there. Make sure that

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they can hear you.

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Speaker 2: Okay, my sound check is happening right now. Hopefully it

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sounds good to everyone.

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Speaker 1: Can you guys hear him?

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Speaker 2: Complaints? Can you hear me?

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Speaker 1: They'll let us know here in a second. It always

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takes a second for the chat. Catchup. All right, everybody says,

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both are great. Thank you. By the way, I want

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to congratulate you on your technology stream. That was a

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great stream. I watched the whole thing. It was very

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relevant to the material that we cover at Jasonnalysis. I'm

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thankful to also have the Larchet book. I'd got to

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copy that from my priest a few weeks ago. So

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thank you to him, and I will I think I've

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added that to my reading list at Jays Analysis. If not,

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i'll do it, but I think it's.

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Speaker 2: On that great book. Great book.

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Speaker 1: For a long time, I've been wanting to do a

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stream Jerusalem and Athens because we keep coming back to

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the issue of in all the debates discussions with the

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Roman Catholics or whoever, we keep coming back to this

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issue of what is the correct relationship between revelation and

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human reasoning, between Jerusalem, Moses and this hate when this

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thing readjusts and autonomous reasoning. So I want to talk

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about that because that relates to philosophy, the medieval synthesis.

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I want to talk about logos and logi because a

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lot of people have a lot of questions about that.

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If we can, I'd like to talk about some of

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the things that you brought up in your stream that

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I didn't know. I didn't even I never knew as

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a apologies as in a Catholic I've never heard the

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objection that one of the reasons that they got rid

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of Mary Clergy was so that the church could get

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the money. That's a that's so obvious. I never I

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never thought about that. So I want to talk about

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a lot of those objections that you pulled up, and

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then a couple other ones you mentioned I'd never heard actually,

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so we'll do some of those, and then I want

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to talk about Amazon's synod. I've looked over the documents.

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I think many of us have if you haven't seen

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them Allso okay, it's not a big deal because we

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kind of I see it as kind of the next

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stage beyond Vatican two. And so for everybody out there,

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remember to subscribe to Norwegian News when he talks. I'll

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by the way, I forgot to know I did add

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his channel in there. I think his channel is in

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the yeah, gets in there. So everybody subscribe to our

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friend Norwegian News on YouTube. And then the second half

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of this talk will of course be for subscribers, So

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you have to subscribe to Jay's analysis or you can

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subscribe on the YouTube channel as well. Either way, it's

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the same material, it's no different, just two different ways

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to subscribe to the same content. So let's get into this.

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Let me ask you a question. Playing Devil's Advocate. I've

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answered this a lot on my streams and on my

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shows and podcasts and essays, what would you say to

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the person who says, you know, look, you come at us,

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say a Roman Catholic, or could even be a Protestant

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for that matter. In some cases, with this critique of Hellenism,

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and you're criticizing Hellenism, isn't orthodoxy just Hellenism itself. Doesn't

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it have a medieval synthesis of its own? Aren't you

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just being hypocritical and having a double standard by calling

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out the attempt to merge your revealed Hebrew theology supposedly

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with the ideas of the Greeks. I mean, isn't that

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what's going on when John says the word logos. I

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know we've touched on this a little bit last time,

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but I want to reiterate this because it's a big deal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So I'd say that it seems the primary

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difference is, and I mentioned this in my in my

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last talk talk, that are you guys getting an echo

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in an echo?

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Speaker 1: They shouldn't be getting one now because if you're talking,

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I'm on mute.

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Speaker 2: So okay, okay. You know, we've discussed that it's impossible

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for people to be one wrong one hundred percent of

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the time, and it's because we're made in the image

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of God, and so so what that requires is that

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for the Orthodox, we're still getting echo. People are saying,

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I don't I don't.

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Speaker 1: Know behind, so hold on, I'll see this every time.

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I don't know why it does this, And every time

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I fix it and I set the settings to be

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the exact same for the next installment, and then it

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does it again.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why, because it's the devil. Why.

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Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna fix so. I know you can't

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focus with the echo. I'm gonna fix it. Okay, I'm

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not talking to you, I'm talking to them. I get

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frustrated with these people.

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Speaker 2: The chat echoo.

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Speaker 1: Keep in mind people that the chat that I see

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is it's staggered, so I can't immediately see what's going

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into the chat. It's about thirty seconds to a minute

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behind what I see, So it takes me a minute

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to figure out where we're at. And then once we

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get it right, we'll roll. I know it's it's so

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let me think how this works. There's three different inputs.

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That's the problem. Let's because they can't hear me.

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Speaker 2: So can you guys hear me? When I'm can do

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you hear an echo everybody, and I'll wait one minute

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for your response.

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Speaker 1: All right, how about now, how do we sound?

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Speaker 2: How do we sound? Guys? Small echo, but I guess

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it sounds better for people perfect. I'm getting the thumbs up.

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Speaker 1: Okay. I think it has to do with Indie source.

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If Indie I source is turned up, it causes the echo.

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So if I have to let me make a note

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of that, so I remember, turn Indie source down.

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Speaker 2: Are you on mute jay?

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Speaker 1: Let's say if you would talk a little bit, make

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sure we can hear you.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's see if we are sounding good, sounding good,

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it's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know the echo. I know the echo is

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on his side. It's it doesn't have to do with that.

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It has to do with the way that it's set

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up when you're using Indie, So Indii causes it creates

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two different sources when you try to pipe in somebody

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through Skype. It's confusing. I don't even understand it. So

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I have to do this every time. So I think

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I just need to turn down the Indie source is

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the key. So I've got that noted for the future,

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for future, because that had the same problem last night.

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With Owen anyway, I'm sorry, father, dig go ahead. What

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do you say to the person who says, hey, look,

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we're all doing medieval synthesis. We're all just trying to

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merge with and talk the language of philosophy. Why is

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it such a big deal.

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Speaker 2: Again, So there's a distinction between the Orthodox using philosophers

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where they get things wrecked right, where they're speaking truth.

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As I said that it would be impossible for any

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one person to be wrong one of the time, and

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so obviously is Christianity is spreading through the Ah, through

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the Empire, within the Greek language, and people embraced Hellenism

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is saturated through the entire empire. The Church had a

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duty to use philosophy to show them the things of faith.

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Now that's quite different than using philosophers to point to

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the truths that are higher truths in the faith, than

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to actually take one's theology and marry it to a

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particular philosophy. Then you're committed. So for example, we see

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this synthesized and reach its pinnacle and aquinas in the Scholastics,

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and therefore you're admitted to certain type of Aristotelian evenimes

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neo Platonic language, potency, actuality that really ends up causing

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some theological problems. So it's not that again that we're

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fideist that we wouldn't use philosophy. The difference is embracing

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a whole metaphysics and forcing your theology into a philosopher.

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And as we talked, one of the primary problems that

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arises from this is the Greek understanding of being necessity

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and the divine is an impersonal, absolutely simple force that

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when you embrace that, if you can't separate from that,

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you're going to have some theological problems as we do. See.

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So I think for you and myself that this is

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what we're pointing out. We're not saying that we never use,

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you know, philosophy. We don't embrace the metaphysics the philosophical

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projects and then try to force our theology into those paradigms.

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The West has done that, and that's why we have

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theological problems in the West.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're right, we did touch on that last time.

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I've got a really simple example that I've used many

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times in my talks, and I want to reiterate it

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for viewers. I wanted to get your take on it.

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Fe free to disagree or qualified if you see it

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as it needs to be more nuanced. But if you

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want to illustrate this problem, let's take an example of

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something like saying, well, do you believe in one God? Now,

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a lot of people would say, yeah, I believe in

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one God. So let's take the phrase one God. Does

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that mean that because many different religions, many different groups

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would say I believe in a God or one God.

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That therefore the meanings across all these systems are synonymous. No,

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I mean, of course not right. So if I said

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I believe in one God, could I join forces with

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someone who believed that that one God was Satan? What

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about one God equaling Father? That would be our view,

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We believe in one God because of one Father, Paul says.

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Or what about a Greek philosopher Aristotle, perhaps Plato? The

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one quote God is just an abstracted monad thought thinking

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itself the one whatever. Right, So we can have a term,

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a phrase that means that has different meanings in a

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whole bunch of different context. Now, I know that's kind

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of a basic common sense idea, but unfortunately, especially in

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the Tomistic scheme, the idea of generic theism, the idea

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of classical apologetics. The tendency that we run into is

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the assumption that words are synonymous across systems. Right, And

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I think we did illustrate this. Yeah, they have a

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unifical meaning across systems. I'm not talking about Aquinas saying

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that we can't predicate unifically of God. I'm talking about

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system to system. Right, when the Satanist says there's a God,

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or if a I don't know, a Buddhist says there's

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a God, right, they all mean different things. So the

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phraise the we can't commit what's called the word concept fallacy.

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And that's what's key here. And I'm saying this because

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this is a problem that I've run into over and

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over and over so many times with the Thomas. It's

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a problem I had, and I've seen it come up

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this weekend debates and discussions. It's an issue I had

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when I was a Thomas and I was looking at

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orthodoxy and I kept wanting to say, well, look, we're

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all just saying the same thing. We use the same words.

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Why can't it just be that we're speaking the same language.

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But we got to just be clear on what we're

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saying and realize that we're all saying the same thing.

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And then I realized, oh, we're not saying the same thing, right.

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Speaker 2: And you know, this idea comes up in philosophy too

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with intentionality. Now an intentionality within philosophy, that doesn't mean

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I have an intention to do something, but it means

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words and thoughts that are about something and directed at something.

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And we can use the same words and hit different

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realities and entities. So, for example, what was a late father?

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Thomas Hopgot talks about love who's not? For love? Love

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is great love? What love? How love? Who? And what

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he's getting at. It is the same principle that you know,

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we have the secular culture of saying love wins. We

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have Crolyism saying love is the sum of the law.

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These are all the same words with entirely different meanings.

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For the secular world and the occult love means something

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like personal desire. For the Christian and the Orthodox, love

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is canotic, it's pouring out, it's sacric it's just the opposite.

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It's the inversion of surprise, surprise of the world. And

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so it's very important that we understand, well, what are

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we signifying what reality? The word isn't important. It's the

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concept that it's signifying. And Christ realizes us too when

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he says, who do you say that I am? Or

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you get the evangelicals say this all the time, I'm

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a believer? Is he a believer? Believer in what? Who?

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An historian? Jesus, the ary in Jesus the you know,

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take your pick. That everybody has a different gen So

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it's quite important to hammer these things out that. Obviously

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the word is equivocal in this sense, and it's important.

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So going back to this kind of generic notion of

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God that we'll all just mean the same thing. What's

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the analogy that man's blind and God's an elephant? Ridiculous metaphor,

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but we're all just trying to describe different in different

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ways because we're limited. Well, first of all, the problem

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with that is a denial of what's revealed in scripture.

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God is the Lord and he has revealed us himself

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to us. And that's what's so important about the Orthodox

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faith is where is our starting point? Is it in

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pagan man made specuative of philosophy, in which case, yeah,

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we are all blind and not only not feeling the elephant,

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we're just locked in our heads doing this metaphysicals and

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ontological speculation about and of course you're going to get

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all kinds of different descriptions. But when your starting point

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is the Lord God, who has revealed himself to us,

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then he tells you who he is, and he's not

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a generic monad. That God's being and this was the

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problem with the Greeks, is that God's being an existence,

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was through his ussia, his his substance, and that is

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Basil and the other Fathers explicate and explain that God's

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existence is contingent upon his hypostasis. It's God is hypostasis,

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the father hypostasis that gives his being, and not the

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other way around. That you see it as first and

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then let's try to work out personhood. And so when

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you embrace that type of philosophy, then of course you're

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going to come up and say things like, well, we're

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all just worshiping the same God and different stuff. And

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that's why Besil says you cannot conceive of God apart

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from trinity. There is no God apart from hypostasis. The

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Greeks never were able to develop a notion of personhood.

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And I would argue, as you would as well, probably

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the West has never developed any sufficient or robust understanding

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a personhood. And for the Greeks, being was the unifying principle,

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the united the many in the universe. But there was

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the universe and cosmos. For the Greeks had a notion

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of necessity. And so this question arises within Christianity and Orthodoxy. Well,

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is God utterly free to create? And these are issues

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that you brought up with the problems with absolute divine simplicity.

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If all predicates are absolutely ontologically ident identical with God's essence,

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in what sense is he free as creator? His nature

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is Usiah would bind him. And so the Greeks were

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never able to work out this dichotomy between being is

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necessity and the cosmos and the freedom that lies in

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person of it. And this is what the Orthodox are

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able to do by saying that God is first and

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foremost person, and that his being himself the divinity is

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not through his usia, but through the hypostasis of the Father,

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and therefore he's utterly free. And you and I talked

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about this too. In what sense does hypostasis transcend nature

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or being? Ussia it's because is I might have a

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nice quote here from Basil at Saint Basil.

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Speaker 1: If I might add two, it's Epistol thirty eight that uh,

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if you if you've not read Basil's letter thirty eight,

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that's where he goes it to great length to distinguish

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usia and hypostasis. Uh. So I'm actually going to link

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that for everyone because this is, you know, probably one

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of the most important texting the Church Father is one

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of the most important letters. I mean, obviously everybody should

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be familiar with letter two thirty four because it deals

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with as and synergi distinction. But I'm gonna put this

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in description as well, and let me add two. So

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I've added that. I want to add as well that

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the if you want to read Edward Fesser, the famous

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tomester my Nosi festor Is. I mean, he has three

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essays on Plotinus's doctrine of simplicity, and if you read

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those essays, I've got a link there, you'll see that

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he says everything that I've been saying. There's no I've

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not been wrong on any of the critiques of Tomism.

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In fact, I've had it right the entire time. And

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I want to make a point too that what you're

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getting at here is that we could look at another

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diagram that might handy little diagrams here if we took

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the word hypostasis. If you read the Aeneids, Plotinus uses this. Okay,

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he uses this term. Now where exactly he got it

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is an interesting question. Perhaps he got it from Greek philosophers,

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perhaps he got it from New Testament writers. Right, we

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don't know. Maybe some philosophers or scholar knows. But let's

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keep in mind that what this means in this scheme

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is not what it means to us in Orthodox theology.

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And that's why when you read that letter Basil, you'll

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see that it doesn't mean the same. So, for example,

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in his scheme, if I recall I'm going from memory here,

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Plotinus thinks that you have the one, the one gives

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birth to the diad I think is the noose in

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his scheme. And then these two together, looking at one

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another and loving and reflecting on one another, produce the

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world soul, the anima mundi, which is the third principle.

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So you get this this succession of beings that that

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kind of comes into being the world soul or the news.

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I forget which one I had some article pulled up here,

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I can't remember one of the two links our world

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to that world. I think the noose links our world

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to the ideal realm. Anyway, it doesn't mean the same. Look,

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noose is another example here. Noose here does not mean

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what we think Noos is. Okay, Noos for us is

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not some second demi urge principle in the original triad

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of platonis. You see, so hypostasis doesn't mean the same thing.

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Noose doesn't mean the same thing. Right. These are terms

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that the same terms in Orthodox Christianity used in Platinas,

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but they have completely different meanings. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: By the way. By the way, I'm gonna grab more coffee,

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but keep talking because I am listening and the audience

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is going to see you, So feel free. I'm just

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gonna pour more coffee, but you won't see me.

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Speaker 2: Jay, while you're at it, could you grab me a

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cup of coffee too, and I will.

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Speaker 1: Important I'll splash it on the screen.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So it would be like.

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Speaker 1: It would be like Pat Robertson. If you just put

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your hands up to the screen, I'll pass the caffeine

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through the screen into your bloodstream. It'll be a miracle.

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Speaker 2: Hallelujah. So, as Jay pointed out in Saint Basil's Letter

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thirty eight that he talks about the substance, we see,

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the being of something never ex is in a naked state,

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without hypostasis, without a mode of existence. And so in

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this sense, this is exactly what Jay and I were saying.

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In what way does hypostasis or a person transcend nature being?

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And in this sense exactly that obviously being substance is

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dependent upon its archaean principle, which is hypostasis. And so

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it is the Father who is the cause of his

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being and the processions as well. It's his hypostasis, and

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that is and again, when Jay gets back, I think

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it would be nice to talk about how the Greeks

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use the term hypostasis and versus the fathers and why

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that change occurred.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great topic. So enlighten us on that.

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How does hypostasius come to change? Because we know by

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the way John Damascus will treat of this. And I

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actually just got a Metropolitan Herotheos's book on person Orthodox tradition.

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I've read a bunch of that. Now. John Damascus covers

371
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it in the Fount of Knowledge, and he covers it

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multiple places in exposition of Orthodox Faith. It's also dealt

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with very well in God history and dialectic, especially the

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way it's treated of in Volume one, which I want

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to touch on a few quotes out of this. When

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you make your point, so go ahead.

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Speaker 2: So if we go back to ancient Greek philosophy again,

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there arcade and first principle of all things is being

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or one or the logos and essence being. All of

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these things are considered to be general. Person was concrete,

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it is concrete. And so one of the problems that

382
00:26:24,319 --> 00:26:28,000
we have going back to ancient Greece, and it's carried

383
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out through the West, is this problem of dialectics and

384
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the inability to synthesize what appears to be contraries. And

385
00:26:42,599 --> 00:26:48,880
one of these was that again substance or usia is

386
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the general, unifying principle of nature. So it's abstract and

387
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it's general, whereas person is concrete in particular. And so

388
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:08,079
again you get this with Plato. What's his ultimate arcade

389
00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:10,960
the form of the good being, and then the form

390
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of the good which gives being too. The forms, but

391
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,960
that's all general, and so he was not able to

392
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work out any kind of individual concretization of the abstract idea.

393
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,039
So again we see these dialectics that are unable to

394
00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:33,359
be synthesized. And then obviously with Aristotle you get just

395
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:39,240
the opposite. You get an emphasis on the concrete individual man,

396
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:46,079
but you have a separation from the eternality of being

397
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:52,279
in the generals. So this poses and again with the

398
00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:58,079
notion of being or substance of the unifying principle of

399
00:27:58,079 --> 00:28:01,799
the cosmos, you get problems of necessity. So we've got

400
00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:06,960
two issues here going on. The inability to synthesize a

401
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:12,000
kind of arcane first principle of being with a concretization

402
00:28:12,279 --> 00:28:18,000
of the individual, the individual man, the individual book. Greek

403
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,039
philosophy isn't able to work that out, and subsequently as

404
00:28:22,079 --> 00:28:29,839
well necessity and freedom. And there's obviously a link because

405
00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:40,599
in Greek philosophy hypostasis stasis standing under is the idea,

406
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,759
and so hypostasis and Greek had the notion of substance,

407
00:28:45,279 --> 00:28:51,839
and obviously there's a link between hYP personhood and substance,

408
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,240
but it's never articulated and worked out and tell the

409
00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:58,119
fathers where they have to address these things. And so

410
00:28:58,319 --> 00:29:04,319
what you begin to see is a changing of those words,

411
00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:08,359
you start to get a little bit of some Tertullian Obviously,

412
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,000
it gets worked out much more in the Cappadocian Father

413
00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:15,880
of Saint Basil Saint Gregory, because they're having to address

414
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,680
these issues when critiques are coming in. And here this

415
00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:25,319
is why Saint Basil says that being cannot exist in

416
00:29:25,359 --> 00:29:32,880
a naked state nature, essence in the sense of essence

417
00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:36,960
cannot exist on its own, but always exists in the

418
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,759
mode of hypostasis, the person. And so in that sense,

419
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,279
person or hypostasis is primary. And then when you make

420
00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:49,440
that primary, is the father say it is the hypostasis

421
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,240
of the trinity that creates the world and creates being.

422
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,440
And so Platinus doesn't have this right. He has this

423
00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:02,519
kind of monad, and he tries to draw these kind

424
00:30:02,559 --> 00:30:05,680
of distinctions out and to create world spirit and this

425
00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:08,799
notion of creation, but they're unable to articulate it, and.

426
00:30:08,839 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: Ats that they have a lesser ontological status. And plotonis

427
00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:14,880
as well. I mean, the world's soul is like the

428
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,119
third tier down from the monad because the assumption in

429
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,440
the system, as Fessor points out, and as many have

430
00:30:20,519 --> 00:30:23,039
pointed out, the assumption in that system. This goes all

431
00:30:23,039 --> 00:30:25,000
the way back to what Parrell pointed out in God

432
00:30:25,039 --> 00:30:27,359
History and Dialectics. The assumption in that system is that

433
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:33,079
distinction entails not just composition or division, but also lesser

434
00:30:33,119 --> 00:30:36,480
ontological status. Right. The fact that we are distinct beings

435
00:30:36,519 --> 00:30:40,000
from the one requires us to go on our long

436
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,519
platonic mystic journey back to absorption into the one.

437
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:53,359
Speaker 2: And that's because for the Greeks again, utmost reality super

438
00:30:53,599 --> 00:31:04,119
ends right, supra existence is unity, right, and therefore any

439
00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:10,480
distinction or properties is always considered not only less being,

440
00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:14,799
but moving towards non being in non existence, and so

441
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,720
again you see this dialectics of opposition where it's like

442
00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:24,000
they cannot synthesize the one in the many. And this

443
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:29,200
is exactly what the Fathers do by changing the term. Again.

444
00:31:29,279 --> 00:31:32,319
It still has a link to being in the original

445
00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:35,400
sense in the Greeks, but now it's given a new

446
00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:38,920
meaning and provides a context in which being can exist

447
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,079
because it cannot exist in the mode of nakedness, right,

448
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:47,079
but always in the mode of person that you get

449
00:31:47,119 --> 00:31:52,119
the synthesis between the one and the many. That again,

450
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:53,880
and this is going to play out also in the

451
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,119
essence energies distinction too, right, How can you have one

452
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,319
in many?

453
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: Right? And it's also going to be useful to point out,

454
00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:06,880
as Saint Gregor Palamustas to barlay onm that the energies

455
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,279
are all in h hypostatized. They're also personal energies. They're

456
00:32:11,319 --> 00:32:16,640
never you know, generic, they're never they're never purely natural

457
00:32:16,759 --> 00:32:19,599
energies that come to us like New Age forces or

458
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,359
you know, the force in Star Wars or something. It's

459
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,359
always hypostatic, hypostatized because they're coming to us from the person,

460
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,440
because nature is always instantiated in the mode and the

461
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,680
tropos of persons. This is why, in perfect harmony with

462
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,200
what Basil says in the Letter thirty eight, this is

463
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,200
why Saint John Damascus can say in Book three that

464
00:32:41,319 --> 00:32:45,200
all the heretics, the root of all the heretics errors

465
00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:49,000
is in the confusion of nature and person. Says that

466
00:32:49,079 --> 00:32:51,599
on page two seventy two. If you have this volume,

467
00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:59,880
it's book three, chapter three of whatever volume they have.

468
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:02,119
And so then he goes from there to moving on

469
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:08,400
to talking about the person of the Father, right being

470
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the sole arcade of the trinity. This is another reason

471
00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:14,720
why we don't have the philioquay because we can't confuse

472
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,920
the father's hyposthetic property with the son. The son can't

473
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,279
take on the father's unique hyposthetic property. He goes on

474
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:26,920
to kind of illustrate and lay out in a more

475
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,559
clear way than he did previously, in what sense nature

476
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,160
is common amongst the father's son and spirit, and then

477
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,519
in what sense each of the persons are distinct. And

478
00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:39,519
this is important too for the philly Okuay. I didn't

479
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:41,720
really intend to get off into philly okuay, but it's

480
00:33:41,759 --> 00:33:45,160
just the way John Damascus takes it in his work.

481
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,480
Because we don't want to We can only say things

482
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,119
about God that either are applicable to him in terms

483
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,599
of his unity, or they're applicable to him in terms

484
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,079
of the persons. So if we say sonship, right, that's

485
00:33:58,119 --> 00:34:01,759
an that's a property, a hypostetic property that's unique to

486
00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:05,599
the sun. But if we use the term love, that's

487
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,920
a attribute and energy and operation that's common to all

488
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,480
three persons. Now we might be able to say, as

489
00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:16,440
Gregor Palomos does, and as the counselor Blackernae does, that

490
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,920
there's a sense in which perhaps the spirit manifests eternally

491
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,639
love in a special way, but that doesn't mean that

492
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,039
he is more love or he's identified with an attribute

493
00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:30,760
those That's where you get all the confusions and nonsense

494
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,840
in the Roman Catholic scheme is they will collapse eternal manifestation,

495
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:38,320
the eternal processions into hypostatic properties. And this is a

496
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,199
very important This is something I never got as a

497
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,440
Roman Catholic, as a Tomis and it's because I didn't

498
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:48,320
make these proper triadic distinctions, because that's where it begins,

499
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,000
right in the triad in this theology. And by the way,

500
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:55,800
everything that's true in this sense in the triad is

501
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,239
then I mean obviously not saying that there's each ternal

502
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,719
energetic processions in the incarnation. I mean they do come

503
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,360
to us from the Father through the Son in the spirit,

504
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,199
but I mean it's not exactly the same. But what

505
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,119
I'm saying is that the way that we conceive of

506
00:35:10,159 --> 00:35:13,079
the relationship between Father, Son and Spirit, person and nature

507
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,679
is also going to be applicable to the incarnate Christ

508
00:35:17,079 --> 00:35:20,599
because all of the teachings and beliefs that we have

509
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,639
about the hypostasis in the trinity, it's going to be

510
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,280
consistent with one hypostasis entering into the mode of the

511
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,199
state of being incarnate. So we have to have a

512
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,800
doctrine which allows for that, if we have an absolutely

513
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,199
simple essence doctrine. Again, the way look at the way

514
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,960
that Fessor explains and explicates the standard Roman Catholic view

515
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,480
of simplicity. There's no way that one hypostasis in the

516
00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:51,719
trinity could enter into a mode of existence that the

517
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,639
other two do not, right, if that doctrine of simplicity

518
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,639
is true. So it all hinges on what we're talking

519
00:36:00,639 --> 00:36:05,360
about here with person nature making that distinction. Making in

520
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,960
distinction doesn't mean they're divided, right, So it's all it's

521
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,480
a distinction without confusion, without division, and it protects the

522
00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:19,519
father's soul causal role. Right. And then when we come

523
00:36:19,559 --> 00:36:22,440
to Christology, when we understand what Saint Cyril did so

524
00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:28,199
brilliantly with hinosis, which is where he compares the relationship

525
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,920
of the body and the soul and man, where he

526
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,480
says that that kind of of a union. It's not

527
00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:37,159
a perfect analogy, but it's a kind of useful analogy

528
00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:41,119
because here we have a human whose body and soul

529
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,039
it's a it's a true union. But we don't mix

530
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,960
and blend and confuse soul and body even though they're

531
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,079
truly united. And that's Cyril's analogy for what goes on

532
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,519
in the incarnation, in that the divinity and it's not

533
00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:58,559
just a generic divinity. This is why we can't have

534
00:36:58,639 --> 00:37:02,320
this roma caa the misunderstanding of the incarnation to think that, oh, well,

535
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,639
it's just the divine nature melding or uniting with the

536
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,639
human nature, and that equals Jesus. No, No, Jesus possessed

537
00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:15,159
his hypostasis from all eternity. He's the eternal Logos. That's hypostatic, right,

538
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,039
and then he assumes the human nature, and the human

539
00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:22,760
nature has for its hypostasis the person of the logos.

540
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,920
There's no human there's no created hypostasis in Christ at all.

541
00:37:26,119 --> 00:37:28,679
That's period and that's why Cyril is so important.

542
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: You have you noticed the same the same theological errors,

543
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,119
the same theological as philosophical errors that occur in the

544
00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:41,719
West as well. So either you get a collapsing and

545
00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:49,880
confusion of soul and body in forms of materialism or

546
00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:55,679
on the opposite of the spectrum substance dualism. And again,

547
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,480
if if you go back to kind of Chalcedonian formula

548
00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:03,960
completely united but distinct, that we don't have a problem

549
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,880
with that because we have a paradigm that allows us

550
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,320
to express this and to see this. And so obviously

551
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,679
one of the problems that we as Westerners before we converted,

552
00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:16,880
when you were a Roman Catholic, we were saying, I

553
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,840
wasn't able to grasp this is because the paradigm that

554
00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:27,480
if you embrace this sort of Greek Aristotilian paradigm where

555
00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:31,559
you're unable to make the proper distinctions, then you don't

556
00:38:31,599 --> 00:38:37,239
see it. And I mean we see this all across history,

557
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:44,519
for example, that our paradigms don't allow us to see

558
00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:49,039
certain realities. If we have the incorrect paradigm, we're limited

559
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,960
in that sense. And so that brings up a really

560
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,400
good point that we've got to make sure that we

561
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,840
have the right paradigms so that we can be able

562
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,159
to articulate and see the realities that are present around us.

563
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would just add that if if somebody

564
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:11,000
does want to dive deeper into this, Uh, this I've

565
00:39:11,039 --> 00:39:12,960
been reading is pretty good this week. There's some areas

566
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,920
where I don't think I don't think he's totally correct.

567
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:17,719
I think he's got a few things wrong. But person

568
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:22,039
in the Orthodox tradition is pretty good. Byzantine Christ is

569
00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:25,119
really good. It's very deep, very difficult. I just got

570
00:39:25,119 --> 00:39:26,840
a hold of this and I haven't I read a

571
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,760
little bit of it, but the concept of person and

572
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:36,639
Gregory of Nissa by Lucian Rescuescu, you would know more about.

573
00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:43,920
I don't know my Romanian but and then got what's

574
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,840
that one? Have you read God History and Dialectic?

575
00:39:48,119 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 2: No, that's a good I've read parts, but.

576
00:39:50,519 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, you like that anyway, So those and by the way,

577
00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:00,760
the the book, the John McGuckin book on is really

578
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,760
good for really laying all this out. So that's really

579
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,159
what cured me of my Calvinism was and errors and

580
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:13,199
even retaining Calvinistic ideas and to Rome Catholicism was the

581
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,400
mcguck and book on Cyril, because he really shows how

582
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,079
what in hypostatized means. And like you said, it's nature

583
00:40:23,079 --> 00:40:25,400
existing in the mode of person. But it's also not,

584
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,440
just as we said last time, just an instance of nature, right,

585
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,360
that's not what a person is. A person's just an

586
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,920
instance of nature. Then when it comes to the trinity,

587
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,480
we would be Sibelians, we would be modalists. We would

588
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,639
just say, well, the son is just an instance of

589
00:40:38,679 --> 00:40:41,360
the divine nature. The father is just a particular instance

590
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:42,840
of the divine nature. And that's not what it is.

591
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,719
There's a real distinction, a real say level up right

592
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:55,159
beyond what usia is. That is person that instantiates the nature,

593
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,639
all right, And this is how we can be truly

594
00:40:57,679 --> 00:41:01,280
trinitarian and truly have a distinction between the first the persons,

595
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,519
And as was pointed out last time, that's why the

596
00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:09,599
grace that we get is not just generic nature. We

597
00:41:09,679 --> 00:41:14,039
don't just participate in some uncreated generic energy. We participate

598
00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:20,360
in sonship. We participate in a hypostatic, uncreated grace. You see.

599
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,760
If it was just generic, then we wouldn't be made sons.

600
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,039
We would be made gods, you see. But we're not

601
00:41:28,119 --> 00:41:30,840
just making god. We're not making gods in a generic sense.

602
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,960
We participate in sonship obviously by ad option, because we're creatures.

603
00:41:36,599 --> 00:41:39,719
But that's why the grace is hypostatic. That's why it's

604
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,480
important to understand that uncreated grace, as secondary or Palma

605
00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:47,119
says to the barley mine, is in hypostatized and to

606
00:41:47,199 --> 00:41:52,559
say that does not mean that persons are therefore oh

607
00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:54,920
their intense like you said, you said it well last time, Oh,

608
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,480
they're intension with nature. Right, the person is so mysterious

609
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,920
and it goes so beyond nature that we just can't

610
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,880
even know it or talk about it. And therefore maybe

611
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,960
we should consider like perennialism or something, right, like all

612
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,199
the religions are teaching it. You know, that's where somebody

613
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,239
might try to take that kind of a mistake of

614
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,880
going too far in the mystery of personhood, that it's

615
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,679
it's totally you know, we can never say anything about it.

616
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's qualify that what we mean by that personhood

617
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:29,760
in hypostosis both how's the mystery and transcends nature. Is

618
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:35,159
that obviously not in the sense that you just explained

619
00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:43,360
and articulated there, but that again by nature. For example,

620
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,480
we'd like to say there are no metaphysical or natural

621
00:42:46,599 --> 00:42:53,840
laws that can encapsulate hypostasis in personhood, and therefore in

622
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:59,119
that sense it transcends because what laws are really nature

623
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,159
and being right the way that we work out metaphysics

624
00:43:03,199 --> 00:43:09,599
and the natural philosophy as well. And so one of

625
00:43:09,639 --> 00:43:12,239
the problems too, is that and this ties into your

626
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,800
comment about you better be careful if you don't make

627
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,480
these distinctions, because you'll run into Sabelianism. Is that for

628
00:43:20,559 --> 00:43:31,079
the Greeks, person lacked ontological content. This is why Prosopone

629
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,480
had this meaning of a mask. The real being was

630
00:43:35,599 --> 00:43:40,039
the Usa in the essence, and therefore the mass lacks

631
00:43:40,079 --> 00:43:43,679
any ontological content and has to be put on to give.

632
00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:52,679
In Orthodoxy it reverses that again that personhood in hypostatsis

633
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:58,880
is what gives being to Usia, because Usia, being in substance,

634
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,079
cannot exist in any can state. And this is why

635
00:44:01,119 --> 00:44:04,119
Saint Basil and the Fathers say that it is hypostasis

636
00:44:04,119 --> 00:44:09,639
that has created the universe and sustains it in not ousia,

637
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,079
not being. And if you don't make that distinction, you

638
00:44:13,159 --> 00:44:16,719
either go into Sibelianism or you can end up in

639
00:44:18,519 --> 00:44:20,440
Try Try Theism.

640
00:44:20,639 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, that on Not Three Gods talks about that.

641
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,280
And so we want to be careful too, because we

642
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:35,519
want to point out that the son's relationship to the

643
00:44:35,559 --> 00:44:39,400
father is one that is truly distinct. I mean he

644
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,440
is truly distinct from the father, not because he has

645
00:44:43,519 --> 00:44:47,039
a different nature. It's completely the same, the father communicates

646
00:44:47,079 --> 00:44:51,079
to the son the full divinity, but he really is

647
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,920
a different, distinct hypostosis. And so there's some sense then,

648
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:03,480
in which hypostosis each of the divine hypostaces fully instantiates

649
00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:09,480
or fully includes the divine nature. There's no lack there, right,

650
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,239
the son doesn't have any lesser divinity.

651
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,679
Speaker 2: But at the same Periodorus, right, you exist, they exist

652
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,599
inside each other, within each.

653
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: Other, right peracrid That's another way to prove this doctrine.

654
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,320
But just in the sense of each type of stasis,

655
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,760
it's itself possessing the fullness of divinity, right, it does.

656
00:45:29,079 --> 00:45:34,320
Yet at the same time, hypothesis is useful in distinguishing

657
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:39,360
the persons, because the father really does eternally beget a

658
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,880
son who is distinct from him, And even though they

659
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,639
share common natural properties together, as the spirit does, they

660
00:45:47,679 --> 00:45:49,800
really are distinct. And I think that a lot of people,

661
00:45:50,039 --> 00:45:52,719
as you've been pointing out, when they try to do

662
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:57,480
trinitarian theology, they will miss the mystery aspect of it

663
00:45:57,519 --> 00:45:59,480
in a real sense. Here I'm not saying mystery in

664
00:45:59,679 --> 00:46:02,079
a bad sense, but in the sense that we have

665
00:46:02,159 --> 00:46:05,679
to accept what revelation and tradition tells us in that

666
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,960
God is just as much one as he is three,

667
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,719
and he's just as much three as he is is one.

668
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,960
And this is the way that we avoid falling into

669
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,960
on the wrong side of that false dialectic right of

670
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,960
absolute divine simplicity over here, or perhaps we're so stressing

671
00:46:21,039 --> 00:46:24,119
distinctions that we, like you said, fall into tritheism. This

672
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,280
is the only way to really properly balance this. And

673
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,199
that's why the Fathers are so important, is because they

674
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:30,760
have hashed this out over many centuries.

675
00:46:33,119 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's another good point too. So what the ancient

676
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,559
Greeks don't have that Orthodox fathers were able to add

677
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,639
is again, personhood in hypostasis is not an adjunct to

678
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:52,280
be added to being, but rather like as a category

679
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:57,280
you add to a concrete entity. Because remember they're struggling

680
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:04,280
with this dichotomy between general being in concrete individualization of

681
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,119
the personhood. And therefore what the Fathers are able to

682
00:47:09,159 --> 00:47:17,719
do is say that being it is itself the hypostatus

683
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:22,039
of being. Personhood, like you said, it exists, so nature

684
00:47:22,199 --> 00:47:26,599
and being always exists in the mode and tropos of personhood,

685
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,480
and in that sense it's primary and it transcends, so

686
00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:33,119
not only in the sense that we have no metaphysical

687
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:38,960
or natural laws that can encapsulate and bring down personhood

688
00:47:40,639 --> 00:47:43,320
the way that we can with being in nature, but

689
00:47:43,559 --> 00:47:47,760
also in this sense that it's the primary archaic, the

690
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,400
first principle of being itself. And this explains to what

691
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,119
you were talking about with the essence energies distinction, that

692
00:47:57,519 --> 00:48:03,440
God's entergaea is his eternal actctivities are being. This is

693
00:48:03,519 --> 00:48:07,320
what in the West they don't get because they associate

694
00:48:08,079 --> 00:48:14,039
God's essay in the senseia is one. But we understand

695
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,320
and only through this distinction. This is why these distinctions

696
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,639
are so important to make hypostasis primary and as the

697
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,320
arkae is that it is the cause of being, and

698
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:30,400
therefore yes, you can only explain that. So what you

699
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,119
get is a consistent theology when you have the distinctions

700
00:48:34,159 --> 00:48:40,400
between essence and energies. So the energies are being not becoming,

701
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,960
so they're not creating grace, they're not becoming into being.

702
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,960
They're eternal in their God and they find their source

703
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,440
in the Arkae, the Father, the hypostatis in personhoods. So

704
00:48:55,039 --> 00:48:59,920
what we're going to argue again is it's consistent theology

705
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,159
all the way through and that we pick up on

706
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:08,440
the Greek words because we are christianizing the Greek pagan world.

707
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,519
Then so we have to use their concepts in language

708
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:18,719
without embracing their enterprise and their metaphysics. And then what

709
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,840
we do, through God's grace and the Holy Spirit, is

710
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:30,159
we're able to baptize those words in Orthodox Christianity in

711
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,760
order that we may solve the distinctions that the Greek

712
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:38,360
Hellenistic paradigms were unable to do. And so if you don't,

713
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:41,719
if you do not have this theology, if you're committed

714
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:48,920
to a scholastic embrace of Greek Hellenistic Aristotelianism or whatever

715
00:49:49,119 --> 00:49:54,000
other philosophy and ancient Greece, you're not going to be

716
00:49:54,039 --> 00:49:57,519
able to work these things out theologically, and you're going

717
00:49:57,599 --> 00:50:00,199
to have inconsistencies, which is exactly what we point out

718
00:50:00,199 --> 00:50:04,519
with Rome. It's not that they deny the incarnation, it's

719
00:50:04,559 --> 00:50:08,119
not that they don't deny the trinity, but given their

720
00:50:08,159 --> 00:50:13,039
principles and their commitments, there's inconsistencies exactly.

721
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. It reminds me of an argument that came up

722
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,920
not too long ago where somebody was essentially saying, look,

723
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:24,000
God perfect the law of laws of logic, law of

724
00:50:24,079 --> 00:50:28,199
non contradiction, the law of identity. They perfectly reflect God

725
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,599
and the mind of God in a one to one correspondence,

726
00:50:30,599 --> 00:50:33,800
such that God could never ever be beyond that. And

727
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,599
you're an idiot because you say God transcends logic, all right, Now,

728
00:50:37,679 --> 00:50:40,159
what I said God transcends logic. I was quoting Gregory

729
00:50:40,159 --> 00:50:43,000
Palamas who says that, and he's actually quoting Dionysius and

730
00:50:43,039 --> 00:50:46,639
the Divine names. He says that God transcends the logical categories.

731
00:50:47,039 --> 00:50:51,079
This doesn't mean God's irrational and illogical. It just means

732
00:50:51,079 --> 00:50:57,880
that God, because he's infinite, he transcends the conceptual human order. Right,

733
00:50:58,199 --> 00:51:00,199
there's a realm of the mind we could call the

734
00:51:00,639 --> 00:51:05,159
noetic realm. That's that's true. It's created by God. There's

735
00:51:05,159 --> 00:51:08,760
noedic energies when we think we're in this realm, right,

736
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,599
that's still a created realm. It's not a realm of

737
00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:16,119
the uncreated. We're not Platonists, right, So that's still a

738
00:51:16,159 --> 00:51:18,800
created realm, and we do have there is a sense

739
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,719
in which the logi does kind of come into to

740
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,119
overlap with that realm. You could say, as well as

741
00:51:25,119 --> 00:51:27,280
a created the physical realm. You know, I'm not trying

742
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,360
to make a distinction between the physical, but there is

743
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,079
a distinction between and the fathers, the noetic realm and

744
00:51:32,119 --> 00:51:35,559
the physical realm, all right, and the spiritual realm plays

745
00:51:35,559 --> 00:51:38,480
into the noedic realm as well. So I say that

746
00:51:38,599 --> 00:51:41,599
because there's a lot more nuance in our philosophy and

747
00:51:41,639 --> 00:51:44,400
our theology and our worldview that the realman Catholic scheme

748
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:45,960
doesn't have. So if somebody were to say to me,

749
00:51:46,079 --> 00:51:49,039
why would you dare say that God transcends logic? That

750
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:52,039
sounds like you believe God can contradict himself. That's not

751
00:51:52,119 --> 00:51:55,559
what we're saying. I'm not saying that. We're saying that, yes,

752
00:51:55,639 --> 00:51:58,599
the laws of logic are a reflection of the Divine mind.

753
00:51:58,639 --> 00:52:01,079
They are not a one to one correspondence to the

754
00:52:01,079 --> 00:52:03,960
Divine mind. That would make us platonists. That would make

755
00:52:04,039 --> 00:52:08,119
us Hellenis neoplatonists. Right, we would be like Pythagoras, thinking

756
00:52:08,159 --> 00:52:10,519
that numbers are God or something that's not true. We

757
00:52:10,559 --> 00:52:15,159
don't believe that. So it's very important to make the

758
00:52:15,159 --> 00:52:19,599
distinction between saying, on the one hand, yes, we do

759
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,800
have a kind of medieval synthesis. If you want to

760
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,679
call it that by what you termed baptizing these terms,

761
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:30,480
baptizing the language. I mean, if you think about the septuagen,

762
00:52:31,159 --> 00:52:33,840
that's what the subtuagen is. The Septusian is an attempt

763
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,159
to take the Hebrew revelation put it into the language

764
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,199
of the Greek diaspora so that they could understand it.

765
00:52:40,679 --> 00:52:45,679
But the key there is that they weren't baptizing pagan

766
00:52:45,679 --> 00:52:48,639
philosophers per se. Right. I mean, even in the Book

767
00:52:48,639 --> 00:52:53,360
of Maccabees there's apologetic treatises. You could argue against Greek

768
00:52:54,079 --> 00:52:57,079
the gayness of Greek wrestling that's actually argued against in

769
00:52:57,119 --> 00:53:01,719
the Maccabees. They bitch about the the gross gayness in

770
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,920
the Book of Maccabees that's going on in Hellenic culture, right,

771
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,320
So they're not melding with the pagan aspects of the culture.

772
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,840
They're taking the terms and the concepts of putting it

773
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,639
into that language. Anyway, long story short, I really like

774
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,440
that you pointed out that the cause if we understand

775
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,840
why does this matter? Who cares? Why does this? Because

776
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,599
if we understand that the cause of being in general

777
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,320
is personal and not just a super essential essence, that

778
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,440
we start with that we reason down from or reason

779
00:53:31,519 --> 00:53:34,360
up to in the tomistic analogious scheme, when we understand

780
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,760
that we're starting with I am, that I am, and

781
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:41,199
that that's personal, that leads us to understanding that reality

782
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:45,039
is personal, all reality is personal. God's personal, and in fact,

783
00:53:45,079 --> 00:53:49,679
the entire Greek project of impersonalism is undermined through this

784
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:51,400
apologetic and through this point.

785
00:53:53,559 --> 00:53:58,119
Speaker 2: And by the way, here's a good addition to in

786
00:53:58,159 --> 00:54:03,320
a very similar vein to saying that, well how, because

787
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,280
what we're saying is that yes, God is identified with

788
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:11,639
logos logic and also transcends it as well. This is

789
00:54:11,679 --> 00:54:14,760
the same sort of arguments that Clement of Alexander is

790
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,119
making when he says God is both won and he's

791
00:54:17,159 --> 00:54:20,159
not one. He's beyond the one you said.

792
00:54:20,119 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 1: Exactly, this is this is actually what I said to

793
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,719
that guy. I forgot to mention that the guy who

794
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:26,559
said that, I was like, well, is God one and three?

795
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:28,519
And if he's one and three at the same time,

796
00:54:28,599 --> 00:54:30,880
then he transcends the law of identity.

797
00:54:31,199 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely, great, great point. So that is just adding to

798
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:38,639
your argument there.

799
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: Uh, real quick, I wanna take a look at this chap,

800
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:48,639
this this little paragraph here from God history and dialectic.

801
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,480
And I always quote this because it's such a great

802
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,599
summation of the point that we're making here, and it's

803
00:54:55,039 --> 00:54:57,679
the one of Saint Basil versus the one of Platini's

804
00:54:58,159 --> 00:55:01,280
all right, toe in toe on, And basically he just

805
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,599
points out that if you read it, he says that,

806
00:55:03,679 --> 00:55:07,320
in addition to employing the term simplicity, we know that

807
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,639
the one is a reference to God. Right here Basil

808
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,360
does so in a unique sense that confounds any attempt

809
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:18,199
at a neoplatonic analysis. In the Greek, the one is

810
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:22,280
in Poltoni's system, referring to the neuter toe end right,

811
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,199
as evidenced by his use of the pronoun it to

812
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,119
describe the one. The one's an it. God is an it,

813
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:32,360
a thing, a substance. For Platonis, the one is that

814
00:55:32,599 --> 00:55:36,199
which exists, that thing which exists you see, or simply

815
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,480
it's translated as a being. Again, in the neuter toll

816
00:55:39,519 --> 00:55:43,159
on for Saint Basil, God is never referred to, but

817
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,880
in the masculine the one for him is whole ice.

818
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:50,960
I think that's correct. I'm not a Greek scholar, but

819
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,639
and referred to as him. Likewise, the one is he

820
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:59,679
who exists hole on this seemingly minor point will assume

821
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:01,880
crucise significance when we turn to the application of the

822
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,000
dogma to art in the iconography of the First and

823
00:56:05,039 --> 00:56:07,480
Second Europe. He's talking about the first millennium of the

824
00:56:07,559 --> 00:56:10,840
Church being Orthodox, as the second millennium in terms of

825
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,719
the West being Roman Catholic. And even more significant when

826
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:15,639
we look at the Second Europe as a process of

827
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,840
the application of the gnostic technique of assigning new meanings

828
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,280
to old terms. And then we'll come to understand the

829
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,400
tetragrammatim of Exodus as I am who I am. He's saying,

830
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,920
the Second Europe of Roman Catholicism will not interpret this

831
00:56:30,119 --> 00:56:33,719
as the personal god of Basil, but in the abstract,

832
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:38,000
impersonal essentialism of Plotinus. And that's exactly what we see

833
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:42,079
if you go through Jilson. When Jillson executes Exodus three fourteen,

834
00:56:42,159 --> 00:56:47,239
he says, this means I'm perfect super essence and being right.

835
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 2: And a lot of people don't realize this, that they

836
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,880
think of Quinas as thoroughly Aristotilian, but he has this

837
00:56:59,039 --> 00:57:06,880
neo Platonic influence on him. For example, not only in

838
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,760
what you cited there but that Aquinas comes up with

839
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:23,519
this idea and essa essensia that beings stands to essence

840
00:57:25,719 --> 00:57:36,159
as what is it? Form is to matter, so matter

841
00:57:36,239 --> 00:57:42,960
can't exist within itself the being gives that to Now

842
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:44,920
where are you going to find that an Aquinas, I

843
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:50,559
mean an Aristotle? What what gives being to the forms?

844
00:57:50,639 --> 00:57:57,000
What gives becoming to matter? You don't find this anywhere

845
00:57:57,119 --> 00:58:03,440
in Aristotle whatsoever? This is again some neoplatonic influence that

846
00:58:03,559 --> 00:58:07,679
so he's not just the hardcore Aristotilian. You can find

847
00:58:07,719 --> 00:58:13,559
a lot of places that he is actually very neo platonic.

848
00:58:14,119 --> 00:58:16,039
Speaker 1: Right, and and by the way, let me let me

849
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,760
pose another objection to you, hypothetical objection to from our

850
00:58:20,519 --> 00:58:22,400
from our haters. What would you say to the person

851
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,239
who says to me, yeah, exactly, father deacon. We know

852
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:31,519
that Aquinas is very influenced by Dynysius. In fact, he

853
00:58:31,639 --> 00:58:34,960
quotes Dionysius more than anybody else in the Suma. So

854
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,440
if you're going to argue that Aquinas is influenced by Neoplatonism,

855
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,480
then you Orthodox are are undercutting yourself because you think

856
00:58:42,559 --> 00:58:45,599
Dinysius is a saint. Well, Aquinus quotes him all the time.

857
00:58:45,719 --> 00:58:52,760
So you're saying that that therefore orthodox, he is Neoplatonism, right.

858
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously what we would say too, is that

859
00:58:59,199 --> 00:59:07,239
Aquinas and and quoting Dionysius, that he's not understanding it

860
00:59:07,239 --> 00:59:11,920
the same way that that that we would, and that

861
00:59:12,239 --> 00:59:18,199
we've worked very difficult, very hard to make these distinctions

862
00:59:18,239 --> 00:59:25,559
between neo Platonic thought and the terms and that that

863
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:26,360
we're using.

864
00:59:26,719 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me give let me give you one example.

865
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:30,800
So in two places, right off the top of my head,

866
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,480
I can think of where Dinysius and the Divine Names

867
00:59:34,519 --> 00:59:37,400
talks about the energies, he calls the names of God

868
00:59:37,519 --> 00:59:42,440
energies in two separate places. For us, they're uncreated energies.

869
00:59:42,679 --> 00:59:46,840
When Aquinas quotes and discusses the Divine Names, he does

870
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:51,280
discuss what Dynastius says. But just like with John Damascus,

871
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,480
he quotes John Damascus, he'll quote Dinasis, He'll say, the

872
00:59:54,599 --> 01:00:00,639
names are just distinguished in our human conceptions, they're not actual,

873
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:04,880
real distinctions in God or in reality. And we simply

874
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:09,880
depart from that and we say we think that Diagnosius

875
01:00:10,039 --> 01:00:14,320
really did believe that the energies were real, distinct energies,

876
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:18,360
and that that's true into Basil, and it's true into Maximus,

877
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,000
and it's true all the way into Saint Gregor Palamas.

878
01:00:22,599 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 2: Right, So they're not reading, they're not reading the same way.

879
01:00:26,559 --> 01:00:31,400
It's the same thing that comes up to with the

880
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:36,159
Bishop of Rome and the arguments that they make for Premissy.

881
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:42,159
They're so used to making arguments to the Protestants and

882
01:00:42,239 --> 01:00:45,559
that that will just be able to be transcribed straight

883
01:00:45,599 --> 01:00:49,159
over to Orthodox And it's like we and you can

884
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:53,800
cite all the passages from the Fathers, We agree with them,

885
01:00:54,639 --> 01:00:57,400
but you're reading it in a different way. You're reading

886
01:00:57,519 --> 01:01:01,320
in a very later development of Vatican wants in reading

887
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:05,760
your paradigm into the father. This is why paradigms are

888
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:10,480
so important, and it's why we don't. For example, I

889
01:01:10,519 --> 01:01:14,840
brought up in the last podcast that when you see

890
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:19,039
the Fathers arguing with heretics and the councils, for example

891
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:25,360
of Nicea with Arius, and Arius is a master of

892
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:29,400
citing scripture and knowing scripture. What you don't find is

893
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,239
that the Holy Fathers get down at the same level

894
01:01:32,639 --> 01:01:35,159
and just start matching scripture with scripture. Well, that's not

895
01:01:35,519 --> 01:01:42,639
the correct understanding. They operate in terms of presuppositional apologetics.

896
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:46,639
You do not have the correct starting point and paradigm

897
01:01:46,719 --> 01:01:52,199
to interpret these. And likewise, look, we have the same verses,

898
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:55,840
we have the same words, we have God, we have

899
01:01:56,320 --> 01:02:00,599
both having a sort of premiacy, but given your paradigm,

900
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,239
you're going to read those with entirely different meanings. And

901
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,960
so rather than getting down at the level of your opponent,

902
01:02:09,559 --> 01:02:13,639
we analyze things in terms of paradigms and starting points

903
01:02:13,719 --> 01:02:16,639
and make our critiques from there. Most people don't do that,

904
01:02:16,719 --> 01:02:18,199
and so they get very aggravated.

905
01:02:18,519 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 1: That's a great point in fact. Yeah, I mean, I'm

906
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,000
glad you likened that too. What goes on with with

907
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,840
the proponents of papal infallibility, because I noticed that in

908
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,920
the in the debate with Abara, because you know, Abara

909
01:02:31,039 --> 01:02:32,760
is going to put out these these ideas when he

910
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:34,840
wasn't citing forgeries, by the way, but he's going to

911
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:39,519
put out these ideas that are fine in orthodox way, Right,

912
01:02:39,719 --> 01:02:42,840
we wouldn't have a problem with an appellate structure, right

913
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:44,840
that there were appeals that that kind of went up

914
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:47,880
the but in his mind, oh well that's Vatican one,

915
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,480
that's your appealing to the guy who's infallible, right, what

916
01:02:50,559 --> 01:02:53,920
else would it be? Right? So, yeah, the assumptions are

917
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,480
read into these things, and there's a lot of nuance.

918
01:02:57,559 --> 01:02:59,280
It goes into a lot of these examples. There's a

919
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,719
lot of contact that's ignored, especially like you know, people

920
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:04,840
that go to Catholic Answers and they go to the

921
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,079
Papal premiscy page and they just kind of throw out

922
01:03:07,119 --> 01:03:10,119
all these, you know, machine gun the quotes from the

923
01:03:10,159 --> 01:03:14,079
Catholic Answers page on Papal premiascy without understanding that in

924
01:03:14,119 --> 01:03:16,440
a lot of these cases there's context and a lot

925
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:19,039
of these cases. Let's take Jesus himself, this is a

926
01:03:19,079 --> 01:03:24,800
really powerful one. Two chapters after Matthew sixteen, Jesus says

927
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,320
the exact same thing to the College of the Apostles. Right,

928
01:03:28,679 --> 01:03:32,800
So the keys text of Matthew sixteen eighteen remit and

929
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:35,960
retain sins. Two chapters later he says the exact same

930
01:03:36,039 --> 01:03:39,360
thing to all of the Apostles. Whoever sends you remit,

931
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,559
they're remitted. Whoever sends you retain, they're retaining. It's not

932
01:03:41,599 --> 01:03:44,840
specific to Peter in Matthew eighteen. So the point being

933
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:48,039
is that we can't take that one verse of Jesus

934
01:03:48,039 --> 01:03:51,880
and say, ah, that's the verse that means all of

935
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,159
the papal premiacy texts that I presuppose, and that's I'm

936
01:03:55,159 --> 01:03:58,440
going to read that into that text. And as I think,

937
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,840
who was I talking to a recently, somebody had a

938
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,679
great point recently that it was the French guy. How

939
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:09,320
often it then became this norm by especially Jesuit apologists

940
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,400
and so forth, to take literally start taking texts that

941
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:16,320
are prophecies of Christ and start reading those about Peter,

942
01:04:17,079 --> 01:04:21,480
like the Cornerstone of the Old Testament. Oh, that that's Peter. No,

943
01:04:21,559 --> 01:04:25,760
it's not. It's talking about Jesus, right, And that.

944
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:31,239
Speaker 2: Just shows two again why it's important that we point

945
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:36,639
out that the Latin project is the Greek project. That

946
01:04:36,679 --> 01:04:38,760
they were married in a race, so they're not just

947
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:43,719
pulling pieces out of the philosophy, but that the West,

948
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,679
all the wey, beginning with the pre Socratics, has a

949
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:52,440
problem with dialectics and either or dichotomy.

950
01:04:52,559 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, if something that one can't see.

951
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:01,159
Speaker 2: Right or here, if Christ is saying it to Peter,

952
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:03,320
he can't be saying it to the rest of the apostles.

953
01:05:03,679 --> 01:05:06,800
It's an either or, and you can go through all

954
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:10,960
of these theological errors and oftentimes point reduce it to

955
01:05:13,119 --> 01:05:16,320
this problem of dialectics that I've got to fit it

956
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:21,920
into either box. And again Protestantism inherits the exact same paradigm.

957
01:05:22,719 --> 01:05:25,519
This is why if you point out that there's only

958
01:05:25,599 --> 01:05:30,159
one church, it's the Orthodox Church, what are you going

959
01:05:30,199 --> 01:05:35,760
to hear, particularly from evangelicals. So you're saying, I'm not saved,

960
01:05:37,719 --> 01:05:43,280
that Salvation's is in or everything's read is an either or,

961
01:05:44,159 --> 01:05:47,159
because they don't have the paradigm to be able to

962
01:05:47,519 --> 01:05:52,159
make the nuances and synthesize what would otherwise appear to

963
01:05:52,239 --> 01:05:56,599
be contradictory or contrary.

964
01:05:56,719 --> 01:06:00,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, that's what I

965
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:03,639
saw so consistently, not just in the debates about the

966
01:06:03,679 --> 01:06:06,440
triad when it came to the Arians and the Trinity,

967
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,360
but eventually by the time of all the way up

968
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:12,159
into the dispute that Maximus has with Pearis. If you

969
01:06:12,199 --> 01:06:15,360
read the dispute with Pearis, you'll see that eventually what

970
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:19,199
he's arguing against is a kind of almost Jansenist view

971
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:24,360
that's subtly present amongst the mon Inenergists and the Monothelites

972
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,559
that the human will has to be in some natural

973
01:06:27,639 --> 01:06:30,880
tension with the divine will. So in Christ there couldn't

974
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,559
be a real symphonia in harmony of the two wills.

975
01:06:33,599 --> 01:06:36,360
There's got to be some like button heads going on here.

976
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:39,519
And so the Monothelites and the mono inergists argue that

977
01:06:39,559 --> 01:06:42,280
there has to be some sort of subsuming and overriding

978
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,280
of the human will to replace the natural human energy

979
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:48,400
in the will of Christ, so that the divine basically

980
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:52,800
just kind of controls it or something, you know. And granted,

981
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:54,559
some of the language of the Fathers can be difficult

982
01:06:54,559 --> 01:06:58,960
at times because sometimes actually from Athanasius to Maximus, you

983
01:06:59,039 --> 01:07:04,480
have the logos Sarks terminology, where the logos who's already

984
01:07:04,559 --> 01:07:08,639
possessing person at where's the humanity like a suit, where's

985
01:07:08,679 --> 01:07:12,320
he's in fleshed right, So that's not always wrong, And

986
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:16,000
as Bathrello's points out, you can even read an orthodox

987
01:07:16,119 --> 01:07:20,320
correct that's not Monophysite or it's not a Pollinarian view

988
01:07:20,719 --> 01:07:23,280
of the logos Sarks christology. There's nothing wrong with that

989
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,440
as long as we don't deny to the humanity the

990
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:29,840
fullness of humanity, right, as long as that's guarded against

991
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:33,559
that terminology is not wrong because it's used in John one.

992
01:07:33,719 --> 01:07:39,480
He's the logos became enfleshed, right. So what I'm saying

993
01:07:39,519 --> 01:07:41,679
is that there are many places where we can find

994
01:07:41,719 --> 01:07:45,119
similarities of philosophic language. We have to be careful and

995
01:07:45,199 --> 01:07:47,760
nuanced with the language, but all the way up into

996
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,800
the Sixth Council and the debates there, we can see

997
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,800
the assumptions of dialectics at every point, whether it's in

998
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:58,800
the Trinity, whether it's in Cyril and his debates with Thestorius,

999
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:04,199
or whether it's the Fifth Council and the Postcusceledonian Cyrillic debates,

1000
01:08:04,239 --> 01:08:06,960
then the Neo kirillions that won out in the Fifth

1001
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:10,239
and sixth Council, we can see that we're dealing with

1002
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:14,000
this constant assumption that there can never be a harmony.

1003
01:08:14,079 --> 01:08:16,680
There's always going to be this kind of tension. Jesus

1004
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:21,640
can't have, you know, truly human will, because that would

1005
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,840
mean that if he does, he's fighting against God, and

1006
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:28,000
that's not possible. But the assumption is that he is

1007
01:08:28,079 --> 01:08:30,920
human will would fight against God. It doesn't fight against God.

1008
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:40,279
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, great point.

1009
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:42,640
Speaker 1: You mentioned a couple of things that I want to

1010
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,359
get to before we take super chats, and then we're

1011
01:08:45,399 --> 01:08:47,239
going to do more of this talk. We're going to

1012
01:08:47,279 --> 01:08:49,359
get into the Amazon Synod. We're going to talk about

1013
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:53,920
how a lot of the theology and presuppositions in my view,

1014
01:08:54,239 --> 01:08:56,800
and I don't know all of your views on this,

1015
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,079
will get your take on it. You may disagree or

1016
01:08:59,079 --> 01:09:01,600
you may agree. I think what we see is a

1017
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:04,840
long train of theology that's led to where we are

1018
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,840
with the Amazon Synod in the roalman caalvoc Realm. Vatican

1019
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:10,840
two is just a stage in this long process. I

1020
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,319
think that we're going to be vindicated on that analysis.

1021
01:09:13,319 --> 01:09:15,520
So we'll get to that in the second part. So

1022
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:17,520
if you want to hear the rest of this talk,

1023
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:19,800
this is a half and half, you'll want to subscribe

1024
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,880
either here on YouTube or over at Jay's analysis in

1025
01:09:23,039 --> 01:09:26,199
the subscription section, through PayPal, credit card, or whatever you

1026
01:09:26,199 --> 01:09:29,920
want to use. So let's take some of these super

1027
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:34,079
chats before we get to that part two. Bruder Klaus,

1028
01:09:34,159 --> 01:09:36,960
thank you for becoming a member to the website. Appreciate

1029
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:40,960
that much, appreciate it. You'll look under the community tab

1030
01:09:41,039 --> 01:09:45,920
there for the posts for members. Beys Chungus one ninety

1031
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:49,039
nine do you have any thoughts on the aerial toll houses.

1032
01:09:49,079 --> 01:09:51,239
Thank you for the great show. I think that, yes,

1033
01:09:51,279 --> 01:09:53,600
there's something to the toll houses. I don't think that

1034
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:55,479
we have to go into an extreme of like every

1035
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:59,520
little literally every little detail of there being eight or

1036
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:01,520
ten or two, twenty three or one thousand and you

1037
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,399
got to pay all these debts and every but there

1038
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:08,279
is definitely something to the return of the soul after death.

1039
01:10:08,319 --> 01:10:10,159
We pray for people have your death. I don't know

1040
01:10:10,199 --> 01:10:11,960
what your take on that is, if you want to answer.

1041
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:18,319
Speaker 2: That, Ah, that's exactly my take too. We don't have

1042
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:24,520
to be with the Fordham crew and Aristotle p that

1043
01:10:25,159 --> 01:10:30,600
a rejection of the toll houses again, is it not

1044
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:36,720
this false dialectics again that I either have to accept

1045
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:42,399
it and this insane detail and have this whole you know,

1046
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:47,520
robust theology built around it, or I reject it. That No,

1047
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:51,359
it's again, this is a mystery, but it's a tradition

1048
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:52,720
in the Orthodox Church.

1049
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:54,039
Speaker 1: And so.

1050
01:10:55,680 --> 01:11:02,199
Speaker 2: From Holy Men again is Orthodox, not Scholastics. And so

1051
01:11:02,239 --> 01:11:05,840
the proof in the pudding when it comes to truth

1052
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:11,279
is holiness. And so I look to people that are

1053
01:11:11,319 --> 01:11:16,359
particularly holy because I trust them and all of knowledge

1054
01:11:16,399 --> 01:11:19,319
is based on trust, and so we have to see

1055
01:11:19,359 --> 01:11:22,960
are we trusting the right people? And how am I

1056
01:11:23,119 --> 01:11:27,840
justified in making that trust? And for us Orthodox it

1057
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:32,640
is the mind is polluted and diseased, and is Saint

1058
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:38,319
Isaac the Syrian says, it's through the news and asceticism

1059
01:11:38,359 --> 01:11:40,960
that we begin to cleanse the mind so that it's

1060
01:11:41,039 --> 01:11:46,920
able to see correctly speak correctly. And that's our anthropology.

1061
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:54,119
And so because they have credentials, because they're holy, and

1062
01:11:54,159 --> 01:11:56,560
that's good enough for me without having to go into

1063
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:01,399
the exact detail of what exactly you know is absolutely

1064
01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:05,399
truer about it in what detail? I think that's to

1065
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:07,640
get distracted from the issue.

1066
01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:11,279
Speaker 1: Roll thingk stakes five bucks, Thank you for the show.

1067
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:14,640
What's your response to people that say Judaism, Islam, and

1068
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,680
Christianity believe in the same god, the God of Abraham.

1069
01:12:18,199 --> 01:12:20,199
I would say that in a sense, perhaps you could

1070
01:12:20,199 --> 01:12:23,640
say that that's true because for example, in Judaism, yes

1071
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:27,039
they still have aspects of revelation, but you could view

1072
01:12:27,079 --> 01:12:30,319
it kind of like a cult, like the Jovah's witnesses

1073
01:12:30,399 --> 01:12:34,000
have aspects of revelation, right, but they don't have they

1074
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:36,960
have a corrupted you know, New World translation version of

1075
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:40,760
the Bible. So it's corrupted, it's it's not authentic, it's

1076
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:44,600
it's corrupt. And so in the same way, yes, in

1077
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:48,000
a sense, do we worship Allah well in the Arabic

1078
01:12:48,159 --> 01:12:52,760
translations of our liturgies and Orthodoxy that use the term Allah.

1079
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:55,359
But is that equated to like we talked about earlier,

1080
01:12:55,359 --> 01:12:57,079
And if we have the term I believe in Allah,

1081
01:12:57,079 --> 01:12:59,159
I believe in one God? Is that the exact same?

1082
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:01,239
Do we mean the same thing just because we're using

1083
01:13:01,239 --> 01:13:05,560
the same syllables and vowels. No, Because when we say

1084
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:08,840
who we mean who is our one God? It's the

1085
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:11,319
Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. And the only way

1086
01:13:11,359 --> 01:13:15,399
to him is John fourteen six through Christ in the spirit, right,

1087
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:18,640
So you have to be trinitarian. So no, I mean

1088
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:22,000
in one sense with the limited aspects of truth that

1089
01:13:22,039 --> 01:13:24,800
are in Judaism and Islam, because they do have some

1090
01:13:25,159 --> 01:13:30,600
aspects of revelation. Yes, But also no, because just like

1091
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:34,840
Jehovah's witness, they have aspects of the revelation like we do,

1092
01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:38,199
but they corrupt it to the extent that it's it's

1093
01:13:38,279 --> 01:13:39,880
not selviffic, is my view.

1094
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:45,880
Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely, So they can say true things about God

1095
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:50,479
because is and I'm so glad you gave a shout

1096
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:55,239
out here to our man from Romania, one of the

1097
01:13:55,239 --> 01:13:59,720
best theologians, Demetri stan OLOI, and both j and I

1098
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:05,399
rec men especially chapter one on natural revelation, and that

1099
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:11,840
we don't make this dichotomy strong dichotomy the the West does,

1100
01:14:12,359 --> 01:14:23,199
and saying natural revelation versus supernatural revelation supernatural, that we

1101
01:14:23,279 --> 01:14:29,600
receive supernatural revelation through nature, and so yes, I would

1102
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:32,800
imagine just as the Greek philosopher's you can get things right.

1103
01:14:33,239 --> 01:14:37,319
But are we talking about the same God. Well, if

1104
01:14:37,319 --> 01:14:40,359
you think about what Saint Basils says, you cannot conceive

1105
01:14:40,399 --> 01:14:44,279
of God apart from trinity, then no, we're we're not.

1106
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,119
So I think it's perfectly fine to say as you

1107
01:14:47,199 --> 01:14:49,680
did in a way yes, in a way no, And

1108
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,479
then I can provide the distinctions. You can say true

1109
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:58,279
things about God, but you don't end up, in your intentionality,

1110
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:02,760
end up hitting and talk helping, you know, and worshiping

1111
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:07,399
the same God because you have to have this necessary

1112
01:15:07,399 --> 01:15:08,800
component of trinity.

1113
01:15:09,359 --> 01:15:11,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean think about you know, like a like

1114
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:14,399
a Joe's witness could say, well, I believe in God

1115
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:17,039
the Father, and I believe that there's Jesus Christ, and

1116
01:15:17,079 --> 01:15:21,359
I believe that there's a spirit. Okay, that sounds good

1117
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:24,319
in terms of the terms, but when you ask them

1118
01:15:24,359 --> 01:15:26,600
what they mean, they don't mean anything close to what

1119
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:30,159
we mean, so it's completely different. Net Cup for has

1120
01:15:30,199 --> 01:15:32,760
focused five bucks. Thank you for this. Do you have

1121
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:37,319
any favorite hagiographies or biographies. I'm currently reading Father sur

1122
01:15:37,399 --> 01:15:40,880
from Rose is massive biography right now. It's very good.

1123
01:15:42,119 --> 01:15:45,279
I've read a lot of the biographies of church fathers.

1124
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:49,680
Those are really good. That's probably my area where I've

1125
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:52,680
put most of my time in terms of hagiography. If

1126
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:54,399
you go to the liturgy, you know you'll hear a

1127
01:15:54,399 --> 01:15:56,159
lot of the hagiography. So, but I don't know of

1128
01:15:56,159 --> 01:16:00,479
a specific book personally. Do you have a specific book

1129
01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:02,920
he'd recommend on just the Lives of the Saints?

1130
01:16:05,039 --> 01:16:10,039
Speaker 2: Yeah? Where is that book? What's We actually got a

1131
01:16:10,039 --> 01:16:15,800
really nice one on women's saints that was that I

1132
01:16:16,239 --> 01:16:19,840
bought for my wife. That's an excellent one. I can't

1133
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:27,560
remember it offhand. What another? And then you have into

1134
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:34,800
obviously you have individual books like Elder Patios. Sorry about

1135
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:35,800
my mess back here.

1136
01:16:36,079 --> 01:16:39,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, Herman Middleton has a good book on the elders.

1137
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:46,439
If you know Hermann. Herman's book is Vessels of what

1138
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:49,039
is it, Vessels of the Spirit. I think that's a

1139
01:16:49,039 --> 01:16:50,520
good book on the elders.

1140
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:57,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely recommend Elders mount Athos by hero Monk Isaac.

1141
01:16:58,479 --> 01:17:04,640
That's an excellent one. They're trying to see. Well, I'm

1142
01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:06,640
not going to waste you guys time by coming through

1143
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:10,600
my library training to find but perhaps I could post

1144
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:16,000
some some links to recommended books on that issue. So

1145
01:17:16,119 --> 01:17:16,680
great question.

1146
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:23,319
Speaker 1: Let's see Bruder. Wait, no missed one. Richard rawl five bucks.

1147
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:26,279
Justin Marter said states in his oratory address to the

1148
01:17:26,279 --> 01:17:29,920
Greeks that many times over Plato and Aristotle took from

1149
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:31,920
Moses in the Old Testament when you went to Egypt.

1150
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:33,359
Do you have any thoughts on this? This is actually

1151
01:17:33,399 --> 01:17:36,000
an argument that comes up commonly in the Church fathers

1152
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:39,680
and their apologetics. I think that's entirely plausible. I don't

1153
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:42,680
know if we know for sure, but yeah, I could

1154
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:48,039
easily see Plato and Aristotle being influenced by Isaiah or

1155
01:17:48,079 --> 01:17:50,079
the prophets, or you know, something like that. Maybe they

1156
01:17:50,119 --> 01:17:53,199
read Moses. It's entirely plausible. I don't know if hey

1157
01:17:53,239 --> 01:17:55,800
Mody knows for sure, but what do you think on that?

1158
01:17:58,239 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I'm trying to remember where I just

1159
01:18:00,199 --> 01:18:03,680
read something. It was in response to this kind of

1160
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:09,680
critique what Tatulian asked, what has Athens to do with Jerusalem?

1161
01:18:10,199 --> 01:18:15,119
And that you particularly get this within evangelicals, that Greek

1162
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:20,199
philosophy perverted the New Testament and all this different stuff.

1163
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:26,000
And the counter argument to that was, in fact, there

1164
01:18:26,159 --> 01:18:34,439
is some evidence that the Greeks themselves were introduced ideas

1165
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:40,319
of revelation from Moses and the patriarchs of old in

1166
01:18:40,359 --> 01:18:41,119
the Old Testament.

1167
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. I've made an argument many times. It's entirely plausible,

1168
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:48,119
and I may have heard it from a Bible professor

1169
01:18:48,199 --> 01:18:49,880
many years ago when I was at Bible College. I

1170
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:52,640
can't remember where I've first heard this, But you know,

1171
01:18:53,039 --> 01:18:56,159
the Jews went to Egypt. Joseph is raised up to,

1172
01:18:56,399 --> 01:18:59,199
you know, right underneath Pharaoh in the Book of Genesis,

1173
01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:08,439
and then you know, we know that the Egyptians embalmed

1174
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:13,079
and buried there they're dead. So it's entirely possible that,

1175
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:17,119
you know, we get the impression that because Joseph marries

1176
01:19:17,159 --> 01:19:25,079
Pharaoh's daughter. Presumably she converted. Presumably people in Egypt converted.

1177
01:19:25,199 --> 01:19:28,079
We know that when the Jews left Egypt there were

1178
01:19:28,079 --> 01:19:32,000
many converts who actually went with them, Exodus says, so

1179
01:19:32,039 --> 01:19:35,880
it's entirely possible. It's entirely plausible that the theology of

1180
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:40,000
the Jews did also influence Egypt. We know there was

1181
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:42,479
overlap there. I mean, it says Moses learned and knew

1182
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:44,800
all the mysteries of the Egyptians, so there was some overlaps,

1183
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:47,760
some interchange there. That's entirely plausible. Maybe that's why the

1184
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:53,880
Egyptians had a period of monotheism. But I don't know

1185
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:56,840
that anybody knows for sure. But I believe the Genesis account,

1186
01:19:56,920 --> 01:19:59,640
so I believe that that, you know, Joseph really did

1187
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:02,359
do what he did. Needs it, Amy Polino twenty bucks.

1188
01:20:02,399 --> 01:20:06,399
Thank you, Amy, always shouting out getting them fat super chats.

1189
01:20:06,479 --> 01:20:10,520
Much appreciated. Amy straw hat Bear five bucks. How how

1190
01:20:10,560 --> 01:20:15,359
do you read notes? Do you read note intensive or

1191
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:21,560
eyes to words solely or it depends. I'm a slow reader,

1192
01:20:22,279 --> 01:20:26,039
as you can see. I do it with intense crazy

1193
01:20:26,039 --> 01:20:28,439
sticky notes. And when I write my notes in the

1194
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:30,720
sticky notes, and in the book it helps me remember.

1195
01:20:31,039 --> 01:20:32,640
So that's how I do it. But do you want

1196
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:35,000
to share any tips on how you read?

1197
01:20:37,119 --> 01:20:39,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like your I'm going to start adopting your

1198
01:20:40,119 --> 01:20:41,000
sticky tabs.

1199
01:20:44,119 --> 01:20:47,720
Speaker 1: By the way. One reason that I wish I had

1200
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:51,119
for all these years, I you know, have thousands of books.

1201
01:20:51,119 --> 01:20:53,520
I've collected many many books, and I wrote in them all.

1202
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:56,520
And now I regret it because a lot of the

1203
01:20:56,560 --> 01:20:59,039
books that I have are rare and out of print,

1204
01:21:00,079 --> 01:21:03,720
all marked up, so they will be worth a lot less.

1205
01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:06,199
Not that that's that big of a deal, but they

1206
01:21:06,199 --> 01:21:07,760
would be worth a lot more if I'm not written

1207
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:08,159
in them all.

1208
01:21:09,039 --> 01:21:12,159
Speaker 2: What I'd like to do is get a piece of

1209
01:21:12,199 --> 01:21:16,640
paper out and then illustrate that with cartoons. And so

1210
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:19,039
I just doodle out and drop. And I'm kidding.

1211
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:24,359
Speaker 1: That I thought you were serious. Sounds like that's not

1212
01:21:24,439 --> 01:21:25,000
a bad idea.

1213
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:28,439
Speaker 2: We're like, wow, what a great idea. I'm ia try

1214
01:21:28,439 --> 01:21:28,680
that I.

1215
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:30,920
Speaker 1: Would draw a little, fat, little aquinas when I'm reading

1216
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:37,359
through the Suma and like he's talking in little bubbles, and.

1217
01:21:35,039 --> 01:21:39,840
Speaker 2: That actually might not be a bad idea that I

1218
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:43,279
feel terrible if I write in pen because I so

1219
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:48,439
I'll do in pencil, and then I feel like, you know,

1220
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:53,039
if I can always go back in a race some

1221
01:21:53,159 --> 01:21:57,359
of those things. So I'll tend to highlight certain relevant

1222
01:21:57,399 --> 01:22:01,640
areas and then I kind of go through stages. So

1223
01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:05,560
once I have certain areas highlighted that stand out to me,

1224
01:22:06,239 --> 01:22:10,159
then I'll transcribe that into kind of more detailed further notes,

1225
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:12,920
and eventually what I try to do is start to

1226
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:15,840
write stuff out, just solidify. I don't know if that's

1227
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:18,479
the best method, and the reason why is because everybody's

1228
01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:22,800
different they use. There's not a one size fits all

1229
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:26,319
because we learn in different ways. But that's kind of

1230
01:22:26,359 --> 01:22:27,279
my motors operandi.

1231
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:31,279
Speaker 1: I'm definitely a more visual learner, so my mind pictures

1232
01:22:31,319 --> 01:22:34,000
the page and I think about what the page look like.

1233
01:22:34,159 --> 01:22:37,800
So that's how it works for me. Let's see who's next.

1234
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:43,119
Brewder Klaus upgraded his membership from silver to gold. Much

1235
01:22:43,199 --> 01:22:48,880
appreciated brewder Claus. I'll have to put the sign into

1236
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:51,520
the archives for the gold members on YouTube so that

1237
01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:54,159
you can sign in on Jay's analysis to the archive.

1238
01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:57,119
Franklin Chan ten bucks, thank you for all the great work. Jay.

1239
01:22:57,159 --> 01:23:01,039
Thank you. Franklin Chan longtime supporter much to you, much

1240
01:23:01,119 --> 01:23:04,840
love to Amy and Polino and the long time jasonnalysis

1241
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:08,479
NERD supporters Drunken Warlock ten Bucks. A question for both

1242
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:11,319
of you, what is your famous favorite book on the

1243
01:23:11,359 --> 01:23:14,960
saint or saints? Well, as we said a minute ago,

1244
01:23:15,119 --> 01:23:21,680
he gave, we gave a couple hagiography examples. Uh, my

1245
01:23:22,119 --> 01:23:25,920
favorite book would probably still be something theological. So I'm

1246
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:30,119
trying to think of what would be the most important book.

1247
01:23:32,239 --> 01:23:34,840
I think on the Incarnation by Saint Nathanasius is very

1248
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:37,840
very important. I mean it's such a great, you know,

1249
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:46,119
thirty page encapsulation of the whole of our theology. That's

1250
01:23:46,119 --> 01:23:48,760
a good one. I don't know of one specific book

1251
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:52,439
on a saint or saints. I guess since my patron

1252
01:23:52,479 --> 01:23:56,079
is Daniel, the Book of Daniel holds a very prominent

1253
01:23:56,119 --> 01:23:58,840
place in my heart. Do you have any more thoughts?

1254
01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:05,399
Speaker 2: Ont did you know that yesterday on the new calendar

1255
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:09,520
was the feast day for Dionysius the arapea guy. And uh,

1256
01:24:10,359 --> 01:24:14,079
we had a young adults Orthodox group and I have

1257
01:24:14,359 --> 01:24:18,680
a text on I mean remember the author on Dionysius

1258
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:22,800
arape guy. I love Dionysius that and so I would

1259
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:26,680
recommend that also my favorite and I remember reading that

1260
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:31,000
as a freshman in college. Was affamacious on the incarnation.

1261
01:24:34,119 --> 01:24:39,199
That's good. Did they want more of a biography to

1262
01:24:39,279 --> 01:24:42,399
feel I tend to well, I like biographies too, So

1263
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:46,960
it's it's hard. You know, there's biographies and then there's

1264
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:48,960
the hardcore theology. I love them both.

1265
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:53,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's a you know, if you go back

1266
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:58,000
drunken Warlock, you could hear some of the previous statements

1267
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:02,439
about books on the Saints seven me becomes a silver member.

1268
01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:05,840
Thank you, Shot seven, much appreciated. Look under the community

1269
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:08,840
tab for the uh we've been working through. I post

1270
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:11,720
one about every day or two of the archived material

1271
01:25:11,760 --> 01:25:15,319
content on YouTube, so you'll find those under the community tab.

1272
01:25:15,399 --> 01:25:19,880
Traditional Christian also became a silver member. Thank you again.

1273
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:22,720
Look under the community tab. Much appreciated. Glad to have

1274
01:25:22,760 --> 01:25:25,880
you as a member. Orthodox Pilgrim fifty bucks. Wow, thank

1275
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:28,840
you man, much appreciated. Thank you, he says, keep the

1276
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:32,680
discussions going. You are reaching people. Well, that's good. God's

1277
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:38,159
peace to both of you. Remember everybody subscribed to Norwegian News.

1278
01:25:38,239 --> 01:25:41,920
I've got his channel linked in the description. Definitely follow

1279
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:44,960
his work. Neo Crusader has become a Gold member. Wow.

1280
01:25:45,039 --> 01:25:49,840
Thanks man Again. I'm going to put the log in

1281
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:53,600
stuff for you guys after this talk on the community

1282
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:56,159
tab so that all the Gold members can also now

1283
01:25:56,239 --> 01:26:01,560
access the archives. It is Nelysis and Warlock two dollars again.

1284
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:05,840
Do you have an orthodox view on concealed carry firearms?

1285
01:26:06,199 --> 01:26:09,720
I believe that firearms are I don't. I don't think

1286
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:13,159
there's any I mean, people from Fordham University would tell you,

1287
01:26:13,159 --> 01:26:16,119
you know, but no, I think that self defense is biblical.

1288
01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:19,319
I've always heard it was biblical. I never heard anybody

1289
01:26:19,319 --> 01:26:22,039
say it's not. Do you have any differing view on that?

1290
01:26:24,079 --> 01:26:26,800
Speaker 2: Well, that's a good lithemus test. Find out what Fordham's

1291
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:28,279
saying and do the opposite.

1292
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:32,199
Speaker 1: That's funny. Yeah, I mean I saw one of those

1293
01:26:32,239 --> 01:26:36,119
guys saying, please please take away everybody's guns. So they

1294
01:26:36,119 --> 01:26:38,800
were there was the argument was, I'm not kidding, it

1295
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:42,119
was Byzantium didn't have guns. You couldn't have guns in

1296
01:26:42,159 --> 01:26:46,960
Byzantian as. If these people care anything about a Byzantine civilization,

1297
01:26:47,079 --> 01:26:47,720
give me a break.

1298
01:26:48,399 --> 01:26:52,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And that was actually, uh, that was

1299
01:26:52,560 --> 01:26:59,479
civil law and that was not canon law. Interesting and

1300
01:26:59,640 --> 01:27:03,560
also I think it was military grade weapons, so that's

1301
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:05,840
not going yeah.

1302
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:08,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, you're right, as if in Byzantium, if

1303
01:27:08,279 --> 01:27:10,640
somebody came in and attacked your family, you're just supposed to,

1304
01:27:11,159 --> 01:27:16,000
okay that my family, who I'm supposed to do anything.

1305
01:27:16,319 --> 01:27:21,199
Speaker 2: Orthodoxy doesn't believe in passivism, right, we pray for I

1306
01:27:21,279 --> 01:27:25,399
pray for our military. I'm not saying the military always does.

1307
01:27:25,560 --> 01:27:29,880
In principal, military is good and supported by the Orthodox Church.

1308
01:27:29,920 --> 01:27:32,319
Now doesn't mean that your particular military is doing good

1309
01:27:32,359 --> 01:27:34,800
things or anything like that. So that's an important distinction.

1310
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:38,800
But what we see is in principle there's nothing wrong

1311
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:43,000
with and we have tons of passages from the Fathers

1312
01:27:44,119 --> 01:27:48,960
and liturgy too that to take up your sword even

1313
01:27:49,039 --> 01:27:56,279
outside of military work as well. Now as for clergy,

1314
01:27:57,600 --> 01:28:01,159
we take on a different role. So so it might

1315
01:28:01,199 --> 01:28:03,239
be one thing to go hunt or target practice or

1316
01:28:03,279 --> 01:28:06,760
something like that, or hunt for food, but because we

1317
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:11,000
take on the role of Christ and Marredom that we

1318
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:14,640
as clergy would not use guns for self defense. We

1319
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:19,079
would lay our lives down. But for the lady, Yeah,

1320
01:28:19,079 --> 01:28:21,720
there's absolutely no no conflict.

1321
01:28:22,119 --> 01:28:24,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point too, that this is something

1322
01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:28,199
that's distinct and Orthodoxy like you don't in the Middle Ages,

1323
01:28:28,199 --> 01:28:31,319
in the Latin tradition, you have like these warrior bishops

1324
01:28:31,359 --> 01:28:33,640
and cardinals who would like go out into battle and

1325
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:35,720
this is weird, weird stuff like that. There's not we

1326
01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:40,039
don't have that orthodoxy. Early drunken warlock became a member.

1327
01:28:40,119 --> 01:28:44,319
Thank you man, welcome skullduggery nerd bear of the reprehensible

1328
01:28:44,359 --> 01:28:47,600
five dollars? Is it pot? Is it difficult to keep

1329
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:50,439
fast days on the carnivore diet. I'll let you handle

1330
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:53,399
that because you just covered this in your stream yesterday

1331
01:28:53,439 --> 01:28:55,199
when people were asking you how do you do it?

1332
01:28:55,239 --> 01:28:56,880
And I think you gave a great example in terms

1333
01:28:56,920 --> 01:28:57,640
of economium.

1334
01:28:58,840 --> 01:28:59,159
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1335
01:28:59,199 --> 01:28:59,479
Speaker 1: Again.

1336
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:04,279
Speaker 2: So what's wonderful about Orthodoxy and unique too, is that

1337
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:09,239
we don't have this pharasitical legalism. We have the law,

1338
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:12,399
and you must always understand that the laws and means

1339
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:15,039
to an end. And Christ says the sum of the

1340
01:29:15,159 --> 01:29:18,479
law is love of God with all your heart, mind

1341
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:21,399
and soul, and love of neighbor is self. And so

1342
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:25,119
if you ever see that the law comes into contradiction

1343
01:29:25,359 --> 01:29:30,279
with the ends in which it's to obtain, it is

1344
01:29:30,359 --> 01:29:34,880
the bishop who has the discretion and authority how and

1345
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:37,840
how much to apply the law. And so this is

1346
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:42,119
the principal economia that's not present outside of the Orthodox Church.

1347
01:29:42,439 --> 01:29:45,079
And this is why you get this kind of pharasitical legalism.

1348
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:49,720
And so again, every priest that I've talked to, if

1349
01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:52,359
you go first and foremost, you need to go to

1350
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:56,479
your father, confessor, your priest and discuss these things with

1351
01:29:57,079 --> 01:30:01,439
don't listen to lady Lady asks any clergy Lad, You're insane.

1352
01:30:01,479 --> 01:30:04,000
They have all kinds of crazy ideas. Okay, we have

1353
01:30:04,039 --> 01:30:07,199
a hierarchical structure. We go to you know, we're trained

1354
01:30:07,199 --> 01:30:11,079
for a reason. Go talk to your priest about certain

1355
01:30:11,119 --> 01:30:14,079
health concerns. In that well, Father, what am I supposed

1356
01:30:14,079 --> 01:30:17,920
to do during the fast if I'm eating only animal products?

1357
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:21,880
There's other ways too fast. I've never come across a

1358
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:25,079
priest that says, I'm sorry. You have to commit to

1359
01:30:25,119 --> 01:30:27,359
the letter of the law, even if it destroys the

1360
01:30:27,479 --> 01:30:31,079
ends to which it's your health, or that it's trying

1361
01:30:31,079 --> 01:30:36,920
to obtain an achieve And so priests will give the

1362
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:40,840
blessing and they'll have you fast in other ways, and

1363
01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:43,479
we get so caught up and thinking that fasting only

1364
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:44,399
applies to food.

1365
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:47,000
Speaker 1: This is a great point you made too. Yeah, fasting

1366
01:30:47,079 --> 01:30:49,760
isn't just oh, what's the what's the food? What's the food?

1367
01:30:50,039 --> 01:30:53,399
You talked about how this is a time for not

1368
01:30:53,439 --> 01:30:57,000
talking too much. It's a time for meditation, contemplation, it's

1369
01:30:57,000 --> 01:31:02,640
a time for alms. Yeah. Absolutely, that was a great point.

1370
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:05,399
That's that's forgotten because we just focus on whether we're

1371
01:31:05,399 --> 01:31:06,960
eating or not right.

1372
01:31:08,079 --> 01:31:08,199
Speaker 2: Right.

1373
01:31:10,159 --> 01:31:12,000
Speaker 1: And by the way, I would say everybody, if you

1374
01:31:12,039 --> 01:31:16,319
didn't hear Father Deacon's stream on technology, go to his

1375
01:31:16,399 --> 01:31:19,359
channel and watch that. It was really good. Na kept

1376
01:31:19,399 --> 01:31:22,600
for us focus became a member goal. Thank you for that. Again.

1377
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:26,039
I'm gonna post the log in for the archives. If

1378
01:31:26,079 --> 01:31:28,359
you're a silver member, if you just joined, you get

1379
01:31:28,399 --> 01:31:30,960
access to all the ones that I've posted so far.

1380
01:31:31,039 --> 01:31:33,600
They're going up one by one. There's no other way

1381
01:31:33,640 --> 01:31:38,960
to do it since YouTube granted me the member's feature.

1382
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:41,279
But of course, remember if you don't want to do

1383
01:31:41,319 --> 01:31:43,079
it that way, you can always go to Jay's analysis

1384
01:31:43,119 --> 01:31:46,680
and purchase a membership there as well. So for hour two,

1385
01:31:47,279 --> 01:31:49,359
he and I will continue this topic. We're going to

1386
01:31:49,439 --> 01:31:52,399
talk about Amazon synod and what's coming up and what's

1387
01:31:52,399 --> 01:31:56,840
going on there. That will be for subscribers. It'll be

1388
01:31:56,920 --> 01:32:00,560
posted later on either later tonight or tomorrow, and then

1389
01:32:01,239 --> 01:32:04,239
in another hour, probably about seven thirty or eight, I

1390
01:32:04,359 --> 01:32:07,720
will live stream on my twitch because I'm having I

1391
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:09,399
just want to build up the twitch a little bit

1392
01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:11,960
as a backup. You know, you never know what's going

1393
01:32:12,039 --> 01:32:15,960
to happen. I'll put my twitch here in the chat

1394
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:18,560
for anybody who wants to. I'm gonna be playing what's this.

1395
01:32:18,640 --> 01:32:21,279
It's this medieval game what's it called? Plague of Innocence

1396
01:32:21,319 --> 01:32:24,199
where you're trying to escape during the plague. So it's

1397
01:32:24,239 --> 01:32:27,439
been fun so far. We'll be talking philosophy, theology there

1398
01:32:27,479 --> 01:32:31,000
as well a lot of weird medieval Latin stuff going

1399
01:32:31,039 --> 01:32:35,319
on in this Plague of Innocence game. So head over

1400
01:32:35,359 --> 01:32:37,319
to my twitch. I'll be there in an hour after

1401
01:32:37,479 --> 01:32:40,319
Father Deacon and I finish up the second half, but

1402
01:32:40,399 --> 01:32:43,720
that will be available to subscribers. Let's see we got

1403
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:47,479
another membership, Diego. Thank you, Diego much appreciate it. Glad

1404
01:32:47,479 --> 01:32:51,520
you're here. Drunken Warlock asks another question, what do you

1405
01:32:51,560 --> 01:32:55,079
think about pre marital kissing? I will let Father Deacon answer.

1406
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:59,079
Speaker 2: That better talk to your Priest's.

1407
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:02,960
Speaker 1: Number one easy way out of that one, Yeah.

1408
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:08,159
Speaker 2: The easy way, but it's it's because again, the priest

1409
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:12,520
is the your father confessor, and your priest is the

1410
01:33:12,560 --> 01:33:18,359
one who administers medicine, and everybody has different situations that

1411
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:22,439
must be contextualized and so again, and it's the same

1412
01:33:22,439 --> 01:33:26,760
thing that goes with the bishop's applying canon law is

1413
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:29,520
that they see this within context. There's not a one

1414
01:33:29,600 --> 01:33:32,800
size fits all as far as the prescription of the

1415
01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:37,199
medicine for healing the soul. So for example, if somebody

1416
01:33:37,359 --> 01:33:41,600
has a serious problem with lust or something like that,

1417
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:43,840
the priest might say, you know what, I don't want

1418
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:47,319
you to do that. And that's why it's so important

1419
01:33:47,359 --> 01:33:51,840
to develop a healthy relationship in confession and outside of

1420
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:55,800
confession with your priest and discuss these concerns with your

1421
01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:58,840
priests so that they can give you the appropriate medication.

1422
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:02,439
And what I'd also add too, is that on this

1423
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:06,920
kind of medical analogy, that a lot of people will

1424
01:34:06,920 --> 01:34:14,199
have multiple priests as confessors, and that's equivalent to doctor shopping.

1425
01:34:15,359 --> 01:34:19,880
That you might get contradictions in the medicines that are applied,

1426
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:24,039
and so you stick with one that doesn't mean that

1427
01:34:24,079 --> 01:34:27,439
you can't later go find a spiritual father, but there's

1428
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:30,880
issues that come up. I have people write me that

1429
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:35,479
I have two priests that are giving me contradictory suggestions

1430
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:38,319
and prescriptions on and it's like, well, that's a perfect

1431
01:34:38,359 --> 01:34:41,479
reason why you need one spiritual father at a time.

1432
01:34:45,279 --> 01:34:49,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, great points there. Okay, that's all for now.

1433
01:34:49,159 --> 01:34:51,640
So again we're going to continue this and then I'll

1434
01:34:51,640 --> 01:34:54,079
be at my Twitch channel in one hour, maybe a

1435
01:34:54,119 --> 01:34:56,399
little over an hour, and we'll be doing plagy of innocence.

1436
01:34:56,399 --> 01:34:58,119
If you guys want to chat with me, joke around,

1437
01:34:58,199 --> 01:35:02,560
ask some questions, I'll be there. Thank you. Norwegian Noos

1438
01:35:02,600 --> 01:35:06,079
Father Deacon Ananias follow him as we said on his channel.

1439
01:35:06,079 --> 01:35:08,399
There it's it's listed and if you want to hear

1440
01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:11,600
the second part, you'll want to subscribe to Jay's analysis

1441
01:35:12,520 --> 01:35:15,560
and we will continue with the Amazon discussion.