Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to Shirley. You can't be
serious podcast. I'm a huckleberry.
Speaker 2: When is this is?
Speaker 1: It is, ladies and gentlemen. We are here to discuss
two awesome movies three three awesome movies. Three awesome movies
that involve cowboys. Not many Indians, but Mexican Indians use
some of them.
Speaker 2: Keep calling me names. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: Does this mean we enough? If I thought we were
not friends, I could not bear it.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be a clote fans.
Speaker 1: My god, Welcome back everybody. We are here to discuss
Tombstone versus Young Guns one and Young Guns two. We'll
probably have a ranking at the end. I know I've
got my top one in mind. The finishers for second
and third place are going to be up in the
air for me. But okay, you remember watching these movies
for the first time?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yes, VHS party. As soon as Young
Guns came out, I picked it up on VHS. I've
watched it a thousand times. Yeah, Young Guns two, same thing.
I picked up the CD and then I picked up
the VHS tape, and then Tombstone was kind of beginning.
I don't think we were quiet in the DVD era
for me at least at that time. But I had
it on VHS and I watched all three of these
all the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, these were definitely VHS movies for me and I
Young Guns was kind of that same. I was experienced
that at the same time that I was experiencing the diehard,
you know phase, Like I was like, Okay, these are
these are my movies right now. And so I don't
really remember how I saw that one first, but I
remember when the second one came out. A buddy of
mine had seen it, and I was like, did you
like it? He goes, I think it was better than
the first one. I was like, oh dang, and I
went I agreed with him. I thought, I thought the
second one was better than the first one.
Speaker 2: And give me a final judgment already.
Speaker 1: No, that's how I felt when I was like, okay, okay, thirteen,
I mean that's okay, okay. I was thirty years ago,
all right.
Speaker 2: The bon jovie stuff pushed it over the top for you.
Speaker 1: Well, it was a big fact that not as that
Blaze of Gloria was a killer song. And then I've
got a fantastic burned in my you know, wonderful childhood
memories of a snowball fight that occurred between me and
my friends after we saw the movie Tombstone, where the
quotes were just flying, you know, the snowballs were flying,
and the quotes were flying too with them as well.
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. Yes, I love that.
Speaker 1: I'm yo Hukaberry. And then you.
Speaker 2: Know, Daisy, you know, Daisy.
Speaker 1: Law.
Speaker 2: Don't go around here, mister, I heard you the first time.
Speaker 1: All right, So enough about us. Should we jump in.
Speaker 2: Let's jump back in time to the year eighteen eighty one.
Speaker 1: You're so drunk you can't and nothing.
Speaker 2: In fact, you're probably seeing sample. I have two gums,
one fight chobyon.
Speaker 1: We are on the day after the anniversary of the
shootout at the OK Corral one hundred and forty years ago. Yesterday,
Wyatt and his brothers went to go confront the Clanton's
and mccloughy's and it did not get.
Speaker 2: Well, thirty bullets thirty seconds.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's not an exaggeration. If anything, thirty seconds
is probably overestimating. It was probably even less than that.
It's incredible, and some folks ended up dead. And you
know why, should such a short thing end up in
the annals of American history for another one hundred and
forty years. These kind of big deal shootouts were not
like this, like one gang against another gang just typically
didn't happen like this. It was usually one guy against
another guy, you know, the old high noon kind of thing. Sure,
so that's why it was such a big deal. And
then also it's really a big question at the time
who is in the right. I mean, history has certainly
painted a certain way, but the truth is the Clantons
and the Clary's they didn't have any they didn't have
any charges. They weren't criminals, they hadn't gotten anything against them,
whereas the Herbs had some stuff on them.
Speaker 2: Sure so, but you know, history is a you know,
it's interesting because there were two newspapers in Tombstone at
the time. You know, the newspaper we're going to lean on.
Our knowledge on this time period is based a lot
on what the newspapers told us, right, and so journalism
was not as I.
Speaker 1: Don't know that I would say it was not as anything.
The fact is that journalism was biased. It was either
going to be biased. One is, you know, maybe you
got biased sharks of the IRPs. Maybe you got biased
towards the cowboys. Maybe you got we're gonna sensationalize this
story so we sell more papers, get more advertising, and
maybe you know, we try to get the truth, and
we just try to tell the truth as we believe
it to be.
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 1: That's why it is.
Speaker 2: Now, well, yes it is, Yes, it is. One newspaper
in Tombstone sided with the Clintons, one side sided with Therps. Yeah, hey,
you know what else happened in nineteen eighty one?
Speaker 1: Let me see, Uh, somebody shot somebody. I bet Pat
Garrett shot Billy the Kid in the back allegedly.
Speaker 2: Allegedly you I'll make you famous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll jump on that when we get to young
guns too. Okay, let's start with young guys. It was
the first movie made, so let's jump in there.
Speaker 2: Hey, James killing us.
Speaker 1: If we're in a spirit, we'll totally can't see us. Right.
Speaker 2: Came out August twelfth, nineteen eighty eight. Now, I couldn't
find very much on how this movie came to be.
Speaker 1: This was a studio movie, so obviously those things were
in play. But yeah, like typically I've got a great story,
and I don't have a super good story on this one.
So here's what'm gonna do. I'm want to tell you
about the writer. Okay, so the writer's name was John
Fuscous is because should we say it now?
Speaker 2: Sure?
Speaker 1: So at the beginning of this year, John Fusco, the
guy who wrote Young Guns and Young Guns two and
Emilio Estevez said, we are developing young Guns three.
Speaker 2: Young Guns three.
Speaker 1: They're not young anymore. It's just gonna have to be
guns three.
Speaker 2: Did you see the movie poster?
Speaker 1: I did see the movie post to.
Speaker 2: See how the word young was shot up with bullets.
Speaker 1: So it's just kind of very creative. So everybody. It
actually on IMDb it says said to be released in
August of next year, we have the third part of
the Young Guns installment. I am excited to see what
they're going to do with it. I don't know what
everybody in how they how can they do possibly? And
I mean everybody's thirty something years older. What how you
do it? I don't know how you do it.
Speaker 2: How's the math work here?
Speaker 1: Well, how's the fact that most of them died work? Well?
I guess maybe they broached the fact that some of
them didn't really die. I mean, Charlie didn't really die
when they had him.
Speaker 2: Die, Charlie Javez doc.
Speaker 1: None of them died when they say they died in
the movie. So maybe that's it. Maybe that's the big
reveal at the beginning of the movie. Hey, it turns
out nobody's really dead.
Speaker 2: Wow, and they're still avenging John Tunstall.
Speaker 1: If you guys needs to help out with the script,
you can preach us at Shirley Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1: Okay. So John Fusco was born in Connecticut. He actually
was a musician. He left high school and decided to
travel the American South as a blues musician and blue
collar worker. He was trying to find some great old
blue songs so he could do the Led Zeppelin thing.
I guess, steal some blue songs, make them some rock songs.
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, He packed up his guitar and he
just took.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so he traveled around for a while. He
ended up being a part of a band. In seventy nine,
he joined and toured with the Dixie Road Ducks from
Northern Virginia, but soon he left. Both of those and
went to school to pursue screenwriting. Okay, he went to
NYU and he had writing mentors that you A couple
of them are going to recognize, Waldo salt Ring, Lardner
Junior and Lorenzo Simple. Really Yep. He ended up winning
back to back honors in the National Screenwriting competition in
his junior and senior year. He won the top prize,
which was a Nissan CenTra. So that's pretty cool. And
he got a contract with the William Morris Agency and
his thesis became the movie that I've talked about before,
the other Ralph Mancio movie of the eighties, Crossroads, of course,
about blues in the South.
Speaker 2: I could watch this movie. I've never seen Crossroads.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you do need to.
Speaker 2: I pride myself on being like an eighties movie gurer,
but I've never seen that.
Speaker 1: It's like, it's like Devil went down to Georgia eighty style.
It really is. It's good. It's such a good movie.
You got checked out. So anyway, the final scene of
Crossroads is a battle of guitar playing that takes place
in hell.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's interesting there you go, Okay, keep.
Speaker 1: Going, and so then he wrote Young Guns. That's all
I've got. I mean, I don't know what to say, Like,
I can't find anything else. I don't know how Christopher
Kane was picked to direct it. But we can talk
about Amelia Stevez. He's part of the brat pack. He
had done The Outsiders, he had done Breakfast Club.
Speaker 2: He had done a movie called That Was then This
is Now, uh huh with Christopher Kane.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that may have been how he got hooked
on because it seemed like Emelio Estevez was kind of
a driving force on this, although he wasn't the first
one that they wanted to play the part.
Speaker 2: They wanted Sean Penn as Billy the.
Speaker 1: Kid, not crazy. That'd have been a different movie.
Speaker 2: Listen, Emilio Estevez may not be the greatest actor they
ever walked down the street. Yeah, but he is a
perfect Billy the Kid.
Speaker 1: You know why Sean Penn didn't get the job, right. No,
he's in jail for punching out a photographer.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 1: Too busy?
Speaker 2: Too busy being married to Madonna at that.
Speaker 1: Year, I guess, so wow for defending her honor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember those days. Yeah, punched out a photographer.
Before we get into cast too far, I just listen.
We are doing historical movies today. Okay, we're not college professors.
We are just two guys with.
Speaker 1: Well I mean you are you are? Oh? Yes, I am.
Oh that's right, it's me. I can't. I always forget
which one of us is which.
Speaker 2: If you want a really good podcast on Billy the Kid,
Chris Weimer does America.
Speaker 1: Yes, Infamous America.
Speaker 2: And Legends of the Old West.
Speaker 1: And they are fantastic. They are really good man, and
our friend Dan lefeb has had him as a guest
on his two episodes on these movies, the Tombstone episode
and the Young Guns episode. They just covered Young Guns one,
not Young Guns two. But check those out if you
want an abbreviated version of what Chris has to offer,
and then check out his podcast for sure.
Speaker 2: So I'm just going to cover a brief history on
these characters.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So we really don't.
Speaker 2: Know tons of hard evidence about Billy the Kid. Okay,
probably the most famous Old West outlaw.
Speaker 1: Agreed, Yeah, yeah, he's probably top of the list.
Speaker 2: Okay, so most people think he was born in New
York City. Actually, his birth name was Henry McCarty. Yes,
when his mom got married at a young age, she
married a guy named Antrim, so he took the name
Henry Antrim. Other aliases, you may know him as William H. Bonnie,
uh huh, which I thought this was interesting. So his
whole life he was known as Henry the Kid right right,
Billy Bonnie. And it took a newspaper to finally put
the three magic words together. I believe it was the
Las Vegas, New Mexico Gaza or something. I can't remember
the actual newspaper they finally put together Billy the Kid.
Speaker 1: And man that's magic title?
Speaker 2: Is that incredible? Billy the Kid?
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So he was born in New York City, traveled through Indiana,
they made their way to Wichita, and they ended up
in Silver City, New Mexico. There was a silver boom,
Silver City, New Mexico.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Billy's mother died from a lung infection at the age
of forty five, and essentially at that point his teenager
he became an orphan, fell in quickly with the bad crowd,
as teenagers often do, was arrested early, I think eighteen
seventy five for stealing laundry from a clothesline, stealing from
a chinaman.
Speaker 1: Well, Clark Kent got away with it. Okay, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2: Right, So, because he was friends with the sheriff's son, right,
and we his parents do this sometimes you watch after
your kid, and because your kid is hanging with this
other kid, you want to make sure that kid is
on the straight and narrow. So the sheriff brought him
man put him in jail and in essentially a way
to scare himself straight. Right, So Billy wasn't really in
as much trouble as he perceived he was. And so
when he was let out for exercise, somebody turned their back.
And again, this is not the prison of today, right,
when you've got to feed prisoners and take care of them,
they would just assume you'd left. Right, Well, somebody turned
their back, and he shimmed up a chimney and up
and over the wall and out and gone, oh wow, okay,
So he shimmied up like a little kid, you know,
I mean, skinny teenager, crawled up at chimney and out
to freedom. So again, hanging out with the wrong crowd,
stealing horses from soldiers. You know, this is post Civil war,
I mean, just post Civil War. So he's playing cards
one night with a guy they called Wendy k Hill
like blows like the wind, Wendy calling Wendy because he
liked to tell these long, elaborate stories and everybody thought
he was full of crap. Right, Well, he started giving
the kid a hard time and calling him. He called it,
we know, he called him a pimp and a son
of a bit, and he was holding him down. They
got in a scuffle, yeah, and he had his knees.
He's saying he was hacking on him. He's hacking on it.
So he had him down, he had his knees on
his shoulders and was slapping him and embarrassing him.
Speaker 1: This is the Wendy slapping Billy, Wendy slapping Billy of
the kid who is like seventeen at this moment.
Speaker 2: And so what happens. He gets a hold of a
pistol somehow and shoots this guy and he commits his
first murder right self defense, probably yeah, once again, he
takes off, probably probably gets cleared and self defense. But
you know, you're young, you're seventeen, You're like, crap, I
just shot a guy. I'm gone, right, Okay. So serif sheriff.
So he takes off that happened in Arizona. He bails
on Arizona, goes to New Mexico. Okay, So when he
arrives in New Mexico, it's right as the Lincoln Wars
are getting ready to happen.
Speaker 1: So the Lincoln Wars, I'll throw in with it, all right.
So you've got John Tunstall, you've got Alex McSween, and
you've got the Murphy Dolan gang. Yes, right, Jack balances Murphy.
You don't really see Dolan, you get him like a
little glimpse of him in the back. But the truth
is a little bit different than what we see in
the movie. For one, John Tunstall was like twenty three
years old. He was younger than Doc, he was younger
than Charlie, he was younger. Yeah, he was younger than
everybody except for Billy the kids. So he wasn't like
this old mentor. He was a guy from England who
had come across to make his fortune. And he happens
to run into Alex McSween. It's fascinating story. So they
are in Santa Fe, New Mexico, in a hotel restaurant
and he overhears Alex McSween saying the words that, boy,
if somebody really had some grit, they could go down
to Lincoln County and make a lot of money, run
cattle and you know, competing against the Murphy Dolan Gang. Now,
Alex McSween had been the attorney for the Murphy Dolan Gang. Yes, like,
so he was like, oh, well, I can help out
because I know all the ins and outs of their organization.
I can tell you in today's world that will get
you in big trouble as a lawyer. Yeah, But back then,
I guess it just it was what it was. So
he knew the secrets of the Murphy Dolan Gang, he
knew how crooked they were, and he was like, I
would like to get someone who's a decent person in
charge here and taken over this thing, and I know
how their game works, so I can help you out.
So it was really him that was kind of pushing
John Tunstall into doing this.
Speaker 2: John Tussell had some family money, yeah, and he did
have some fortitude yeah, right, he had the balls to
go against the Murphy Dolan game. Yeah, And he was
quoted as saying that he wanted fifty cents of every
dollar spent in New Mexico. So John Tussell, it wasn't
that he wasn't ambitious or even greedy, right, He just
wasn't willing to murder people.
Speaker 1: Right. He would take up arms and he would defend
and that sort of thing, which was different than McSween.
McSween was anti violence completely like he, which is, you know,
ironic that he would be gunned down in the front
end part of his house while his house was burning.
Tunstall was one who would take up the fight, but
wasn't one to go instigate.
Speaker 2: Yes, so it is interesting before we really go any further,
almost everybody, at least the main people are based on
real people in Young Guns and Tombstone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the historical accuracy of these movies, given that they
are really good and Hollywood movies right, is really pretty impressive.
Speaker 2: It is impressed.
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact is there are just some really
cool things going on back in the eighteen eighties and
we got the benefit of being able to capture it
via Hollywood. Okay, guys, we're going to take a brief break.
We're coming to you with our Shirly showcase. We have
a special Patreon member who is joining us today to
tell us her opinion on one of our prior episodes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's Torontonian. Her name is Addie, and this is
what she has to say.
Speaker 3: Hey guys, this is Addie from Toronto, Ontario and I
really love your podcast, so thank you for asking me
to be a part of it.
Speaker 4: This is really exciting.
Speaker 3: I've listened to your podcast for a few weeks now,
maybe a month, but I really love it. I listen
to it every week. It's a great way to break
up the work day. It gives me a little bit
of joy in an otherwise boring work day. So thank
you guys for that. Your podcast is just kind of
really chill and fun and I love listening to you
guys talk. You guys are very knowledgeable and funny, and
it sounds like listening to two old friends sit around
and talk and laugh and it just gives you a
really good feeling. So I really love your podcast, So
keep doing what you're doing. So I've chosen your Bill
and Ted episodes, both of them, because I have to
talk about all three movies. And yeah, I just love
those movies so much. They're near and dear to my heart.
I got into excellent Adventure when I was about fifteen sixteen,
which was two thousand and five, two thousand and six,
so kind of way after the movies came out, but
they're still nostalgic to me and remind me of being
a teenager. I love them so much. I've made my
friend in high school dress up as Bill and me
as Ted because that's how much I love the movies
and still one of my favorite Halloween costumes of all time.
I don't know how I'm gonna pick. It's impossible to
rank these movies because they're all so good. I love
them so much. Excellent Adventure, obviously, is where we meet
Bill and Ted, and you meet these two lovable characters
who are just pure fun and they're sweet and they're
nice and they just want to have a good time.
They're not like those typical rebellious rage against the machine,
range against the man rocker dudes.
Speaker 4: They just want to have a good time. They want
to make music.
Speaker 3: They're vibing, they're chilling, they're just living their life. And
they also have to save the world, so I guess
there's a little bit of conflict there, and it's just
a fun time.
Speaker 4: And then you have Bogus Journey, which.
Speaker 3: To me, I think while it is a complete departure
from Excellent Adventure, I think they take the formula from
Excellent Adventure change it into something completely different while also
remaining true to them, which I don't know if that
makes any sense, and I don't know if this is
an unpopular opinion, but I do love Bogus Journey. I
love William Sadler as Death. He is absolutely hilarious. And
I also love God gave rock and roll to you,
one of the greatest songs and forever will remind me
of Bill and Ted. And then you have Faced the music,
which honestly I think is fun, nostalgic. It was a
good throwback. It was completely for the fans, and I
think it was a great way to close off the trilogy.
I think Alex Winter and Keanu Reeves did an amazing
job and they just brought Bill and Ted back to
life while finally closing off their story in a satisfactory way.
Speaker 4: And I just loved it. And that's it. I mean.
Speaker 3: As for my ranking, I think I can only rank
them in the way they came out as one, two,
and three.
Speaker 4: But they're all so good and it really.
Speaker 3: Is truly impossible to rank them, but yeah, I guess
the only appropriate way to end this is to say,
be excellent to each other and party on.
Speaker 4: Dudes.
Speaker 3: Thank you guys for everything you do. I can't wait
to listen to more.
Speaker 1: Okay, awesome, I love it.
Speaker 2: I love that's she called us fun and chill.
Speaker 1: I'd like fun, I like chill, I like being described
as such. It is good. We really really appreciate the
warm words that you had for us. Addie. Thank you
very much.
Speaker 2: I think it's awesome that somebody so young likes these
eighties and nineties movies that we love.
Speaker 1: I know it sounds like she was born in like
the Lady eighties and still is digging on the stuff
that we grew up with. It's totally awesome.
Speaker 2: I know it's fantastic. Addie, Thank you so much. We
love hearing from you. Looking forward to interacting with you
in the future.
Speaker 1: And guys, if you want to be an executive producer
like Addie, be sure and check out our Patreon page.
It's patreon dot com slash Shirley Podcast. You can be
a Patreon member for as little as five bucks a
month and get some maybe cool prizes if you go
up from there. So definitely check that out. Thanks Addie.
All right, let's get back to it.
Speaker 2: So, Yes, William H. Bonnie actually lived, Jose Chavez, real
person Joside, Doc Scurlock, real person, Charlie Bowdrey, Dirty Steve
even was a real person with a real name.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Okay. So when Billy arrives in Lincoln County, the Murphy
Dolan store is the most powerful thing.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: They actually have a deal with the army. Remember this
is Civil war, just after the Civil War, and they
are running every So tons silomicch swing came to town
to put them out of business. Guess what, that's not
gonna be very popular.
Speaker 1: Let all fly around here, get.
Speaker 2: Yes. So, like the movie, Murphy Dolan assassinated John Tunstall. Yeah,
New Year's Day, New Year's Day and the group of
young men. It's not this father son relationship, right, or
even teacher student relationship, right. It's boss and regulators regularly.
Speaker 1: I mean they were already the regulators.
Speaker 5: Yes, we worked for mister Tunstall as regulators. We regulate
any stealing of his property. We're damn good too. Mister
Tunstell's got a soft spot for runaways. There looks vagrant types,
but you can't be any geek off the street. Gotta
be handy with the steel, if you know what I mean,
or you keep it's.
Speaker 1: Just after that happened, they became the deputized regulators.
Speaker 2: Gotta be handy with the steel, if you know what
I mean.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to talk about that line.
Speaker 2: I know we can't. So after his death, the regulators
got Lawrence and instead of like arresting people, they used
it as like hunting licenses, like we're gonna go kill
these guys.
Speaker 1: And speaking about historical accuracy. Dick Brewer was really like, no,
we need to arrest these guys. We don't need to
just gun him down. And Billy and basically everybody else
was like, nope, we're taking these guys out. They killed
our boss. We're taking them out.
Speaker 2: That great scene in Young Guns where they catch Baker
and Martin, they actually capture them at the at the
river Benda. We don't really know exactly what happened at
that moment. Right, three guys ended up dead. Baker yep,
McCloskey yeah, and Martin right.
Speaker 1: And McCloskey was the guy who had been deputized with
him as one of the regulators. But Billy, we don't
know what happened. But in the movie, Billy says he's
a trader. I know he's a trader. Has been with
the Murphy Dolan gang. Oh yeah, and you see him,
you know, shoot the guy in the forehead point blank.
It's pretty it's intense too. Yeah, that's all that.
Speaker 2: That's not what you did.
Speaker 1: What do you do? What do you do?
Speaker 2: He knows what he did that scene when he blows
that guy at the back of his head out right. Yeah,
they used a little squib and ground hamburger meat gruesome murder.
And so later on in the movie when Alex McSween
gets shot, they don't use any squibs because they're afraid
it is going to be rated r.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, worse. Yeah, like they were. There was
so much blood that they thought they were not going
to get any no kids watching this movie. Okay, So
over to Tombstone, Over Tombstone.
Speaker 5: And hell's come on with me.
Speaker 1: Hells coming with me over to Tombstone. So again we've
got I'll start with our writer again because from what
I've read, he is really the guy behind why this
movie was so good. Okay, he's his name's Kevin Jarry.
He started out as an actor on like Flipper, like
as a kid.
Speaker 2: Really, yeah, he was.
Speaker 1: He was one of the actors on Flipper, but he
was I was totally into Old West and Civil War history,
huge historical you know, just dove into that. And so
he decided to start writing things. And one of the
first things, one of the first screenwriting jobs that he
has is with a movie that you and I both
have talked about before. Okay, Rambo First Blood Part two.
Oh yeah, but Rambo, right, but when we talked about it,
it wasn't Kevin Jarry who had written it. It was yeah,
it was James Cameron exactly. And so I was like, what, okay,
And then even when I had read about James Cameron's script,
Sylvester Stallone was like, yeah, no, none of that was
actually James Cameron stuff. I pretty much did all of that.
So it sounds like Kevin Jari wrote something, and then
James Cameron tried to make that better, and then Sylvester
Stallone said this is still crap and readd the whole
thing anyway.
Speaker 2: That's kind of his m O.
Speaker 1: But yes, yeah, but interestingly, the director on Rambo First
Blood Part two. Yes is George Cosmotos, Yes, who will
come up here in just a little bit, right.
Speaker 2: Right, So who directed Tombstone?
Speaker 1: That's a good question.
Speaker 2: That is a good question.
Speaker 1: We will get to that in just a minute. Okay, Okay.
So Kevin Jari then does another script for this movie
called Glory, which ends up being a huge success historically
accurate and a huge success. It's like the breakout movie
for Denzel Washington. It made Matthew Broderick a real actor
instead of just one of the kid actors. I mean,
it was really well received. And so he's kind of
writing that ladder up and so he's like, Okay, the
next movie I want to do is Dracula.
Speaker 2: Really Yeah? What Yeah?
Speaker 1: He's like, I really want to get it right. I
want to get as much historically accurate as I can.
And so he's like he's diving into the history of
Flat the Impaler, He's going to Transylvan. He spends years
developing the script, and I think he meets Winona writer
at some point he's like, Hey, I think you'd be
great in this movie that I'm writing right now about Dracula.
WHOA And she's like oh, that sounds great. And then
later on she says something to Francis Ford Coppola, who's like, oh, no, no,
don't be in that one, being the one that I'm making. Oh,
and so they and this is something that happens a
lot in Hollywood. They will make two movies about the
same event at the same time, and it's really a
race to the box office. Does that sound familiar right now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it absolutely happened with Tombstone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. We had Tombstone come out, and then what
like six months later, whyet Rup came out?
Speaker 2: Yeah, whyet Arb with Kevin Costner and Dennis Quaid as
Doc Hollywood.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Doc Hollywood, Doc, Doc Hollywood is agreement.
Speaker 2: I can't believe.
Speaker 1: It's what Michael Jus performances. I think I liked it
best when he said, you're a daisy if you do
Doc Holliday. Yeah, my gosh, thank you very much.
Speaker 2: So, uh what podcast am I on here?
Speaker 1: And so he is devastated, right like the Francis Ford
Coppola is making Dracula and basically the studio says, sorry,
we're pulling the plug. I mean he was in like
Middle Europe at the time doing research and I like
to we'll pulling the plug. And so, like years of
his time down, the dream sucks. So he comes back devastated,
but he rallies and says, Okay, I'm gonna do an
Old West script. That's what I want to do right,
and I want to do it right. I want to
get it historically accurate. And so he enlists the help
of a guy named Jeff Moray and another guy named
Jim Dunham. All Right, He's like, I want to get
this as close to right as I can, and again
spends months years getting this script developed. And while he's talking,
Jim Dunham says to him, he says, Hey, I don't
know if you've read the Walter noble Burns book called Tombstone,
but if you're going to cover the confrontation scene between
Doc Holliday and Johnny Ringo, be sure to use the
line I'm your Hookleberry. That's my game.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So that line came from the book Tombstone by Walter
noble Burns.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So then later Kevin asked Jeff, He's like, you know,
I'm trying to find the motivation on these guys. I
can get the facts, but I'm not sure about the motivation.
And I can't figure out why Wyatt liked Doc And
Jeff said, I think it's because he made him laugh.
Speaker 2: I think that's genius. Oh yeah, the Alchemist's performance is
Doc hollo Day as Doc Holliday is phenomenal. Why whatever
do you mean?
Speaker 1: Maybe popas is not your game?
Speaker 2: Laughter?
Speaker 1: I know, let's have a spelling contest.
Speaker 2: And he's hilarious.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yes, I mean he he makes you laugh. He's
saying things in this deadband way without a smile, and
he's hysterical.
Speaker 2: If you haven't seen have you seen the documentary called
val I haven't seen it yet. Oh it's fantastic. And
in fact, I went back after watching that documentary, I
watched Tombstone and the Doors and Top Gun. Oh yeah,
his range is amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a tragedy. So another guy who's of importance,
this is this is some good stuff here that you
remember the character Texas Jack Vermilion. He's the guy with
like the longer hair when the Yeah, okay, so that
actor's name is Peter Shaiko. Okay, but he's also a
Western historian, like they stuck him in this part. But
really he's more. He's more behind the scenes kind of guy,
and so his job was to get the guns for
all of the characters, and so, like they because of
what happened with Dracula, Kevin Jarry didn't want anybody to
know what kind of script he was working on because
he didn't want anybody to come in and steal it
out from under him.
Speaker 2: Again like Kevin Costner.
Speaker 1: Exactly, okay, and so he's like keeping things secret, but
he has to, you know, get things from different people.
He's looking for guns in the situation, and finally he
gives Peter Shariko an idea of that they're making a
movie to shootout at the OK Corral, right, Okay. He's like,
I need the guns for these guys. And he's like, okay,
no problem. I know that Doc Holliday carried a seven
and a half inch colt and Kevin Jarry's like, uh no,
it's too big. He's like, what I thought you said
you want to be historically actor. He goes, I do,
but I also wanted to be able to twirl the
gun a little bit. And that's too big, right, And
he's like, okay, well that was also Ringo's gun. He's
like oh yeah, I want Ringo to do a lot
of twirling. So can you change both of those two
like a four and a three quarter inch or something
like that. He's like, all right, fine, as what we do.
And so that's what they end up with is the
shorter guns they can do their fancy twirling right. And
then it happens again, like he's like, Okay, well, what's
what gun is Sheriff bi Han going to have. He's like, listen,
he was a dapper guy. I think that probably he's
going to get the most recent gun that's out there
for sheriffs at the time, since he's a sheriff and
there was this four inch sheriff's model. And Jerry again says, no,
I want him to have like a dainty gun. I
want like those tiny guns. He's like. So he goes
to this place in Orange County called Little John's, which
has the old West guns, you know, like the high
end guns that you can get, and the guy John
that Little John's John is like, hey, we we've got
an auction coming up. You should check it out. I
think there'd be some stuff you'd be interested in. He's like, okay,
He's like, here's the catalog. He starts flipping through the catalog.
They have the original B hand gun, like the actual
gun that Sheriff Behn owned is coming up for auction
and it's the exact model that Peter Sireko was trying
to convince Kevin jar to use. So he's like, I
need to take this, and he drives all the way
back to Jarr's house and he just holds it open
for him in front of him, and Jarr's like, okay,
we can use that gun.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So who did We've touched it already. You
know who Kevin Jarry wanted to play wi at.
Speaker 2: Ar Kevin Costner. Yeah, that's what I mean, what happened
with that thing?
Speaker 1: Okay? So Kostner had been in Silverado in eighty five,
which is I mean, you look at the eighties, there
are very few Western movies that are inequality, right, but
Silverado is one of them, and it was Kevin Costner's
breakout performance, right, And then obviously he ends up doing
very well in the genre.
Speaker 2: Later on he moves on to baseball.
Speaker 1: Well, but I mean he's still he's got open range,
he's got dances with wolves, I mean it's he's good
at doing the cowboys stuff.
Speaker 2: He is doing. It's baseballs and cowboys.
Speaker 1: Cowboys reminds me when he shows up to one of
the producer's house, he's in the bomber jacket and the
baseball cap and it's supposed to be talking about a
wider script and all he's got is a bottle of
Stowly vodka. He's like, please tell me, you guys have
some orange juice. And all he did was sit there
and make screw drivers all day. The scrived it all
sidebar anyway, so he calls up Kevin Costner, and there
are a lot of conflicting stories about how this actually
all played out, but the clear thing is that Kevin
Costner says, no, no, thank you. What we get from
both Kevin Costner and from Kevin Jari is Kevin Costner
had already been working on a He had this idea
for like a big mini series about Wyat's life, and
so he was like, I don't want to do this.
I want to do mine. Mine's good and yours is okay, right,
which he also said he didn't read it, so it
didn't really make any sense. But anyway, he's out before
you move on from Kevin Costner, gohead.
Speaker 2: You know what role Kevin Costner stole from Kurt Russell.
Speaker 1: Yes, we've talked about it in our previous episode on
Bulderham Versus Major League.
Speaker 2: I find that fascinating. Kurt Russell really wanted the part
of Crash Davis in Bull Durham, right, Kevin Costner took
it right.
Speaker 1: Kurt Russell was a professional baseball player, I know, I know,
and he did get the part.
Speaker 2: Kevin Costner was not the best player in his high
school team, right, and so you got to think that
there's some satisfaction Kurt Russell taking over this movie and
just killing Kevin Costner at the movie theater.
Speaker 1: Apparently it was Apparently on the set there were two
things you didn't talk about in front of Kurt Russell.
One was machine Rain and the other was Kevin Costner.
Speaker 2: Really.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now they ended up doing twenty thousand miles to Graceland. Yeah, exactly?
How about that they made up? I guess, you know,
I became drinking buddies or whatever would bury the hatchet.
So Kevin Jari has written this epic, awesome, historically accurate
script and he is slated to direct. Okay, Okay, so.
Speaker 2: This is interesting. We're getting into it now, right.
Speaker 1: So he's picking out people, right. One of the actors
that gets the script is a guy that we've talked
about also, Michael Bean. Yeah, and so he Michael Bean's like,
I would like to be Doc Holliday please because that
looks like an awesome part, right, And they're like, okay,
we'll let him know, and they're like, okay, Val Kilmer
is probably gonna do that. When he's like, well, crap, okay,
I'm not a wait the guy who Vlkilmer is against
the guy who Doc Hollidays against Johnny Ringo. Can I
have that part? And they're like, yeah, you can, you
can have that part. Okay. So he meets with Kevin
Jarr and this is interesting. Kevin Jari tells him that, like,
this is like a piece that he's writing for his girlfriend.
Lisa's aym Like, he's like, I want her to be Josie.
She was into movies with Rob Low and James Spader.
She was kind of, you know, on the fringe of
being somebody interesting. But he wanted her to be play
the part of Josie in this one. Yeah. So he
tells that to Michael Bean. Michael Bean's like, yeah, this
is great. This guy's got passionate about the script. I'm
excited to be a part of it. And he ends
up writing to Tucson with Powers Booth and he says,
Powers Booth is hilarious. Just told stories the whole time,
told about how when they were shooting Extreme Prejudice he
lost the weekend with Nick Nolty. And when he says that,
he's like, I was it was Friday afternoon. I was
going to his trailer to say bye, you know, have
a good weekend, bye bye, well bye, And he says
in the next thing that I knew it was Monday
morning and they were knocking on the trailer door and
he was up ready to go to this film again.
Speaker 2: Why does that not so?
Speaker 1: Michael Bean arrives at the reading, right, they are all
there and tuson to do the reading together. He's pretty
much the whole cast is there, and he says he
and Bell Kilmer are sizing each other up from the
get go, right, but he says, I had not taken
the time or I hadn't found the time to learn
the correct pronunciation of the Latin right. He said, Val
not only knew how to pronounce it, he knew what
it all meant. Ah, And he was like, yeah, I'm
losing this battle. And like as soon as he has
that thought, somebody projectile vomits all over the table. And
reading it's over, he's like, okay, I got some time
to catch up here. So at the beginning, Kurt Russell
is saying, hey, this is a great script, but it's
too long. We need to cut twenty pages of this,
and Kevin Jarry was like, no, we're not going to
cut it. I've got this. This is my dream piece,
this is my whole life. I'm not going to let
this happen, right, And what ends up happening is Kevin
Jarry making like this john Ford esque super long, stately
and slow, old kind of western right, and it sucks. Yeah,
he's doing these long shots and I mean not only
long in time, but like far away, so you don't
have coverage, you can't do good, you don't have your
editing options to do this, and so that's frustrating the producers.
And then he is being like my way or the
highway to everybody, cast and crew, and he's a first
time director. This is the first movie he's ever directed,
and he's like, Kurt Russell, shut up, shut up, you
can go to him. You think sorry, After like four weeks,
everybody is despising Kevin Jarry, and Michael Bean says, like,
four weeks in, I pull onto my trailer. I'm like, listen, dude,
Filmmaking is a collaborative art, right, you can't just not
listen to everybody. But he said it was too late,
fired him on f D and so the last thing
that he sees is Kevin Jarr with like this soul
crushing look on his face in the hotel with his
bags packed out the door.
Speaker 2: Oh man, that's fascinating, though I've never heard that story.
Speaker 1: So your original question, who directed it? Well, once this
is done, they don't even know if the movie's going
to keep going or not. Right, they've been shooting for
four weeks. They decide they're not going to use any
of Kevin Jarry's shots. They're going to start basically over
from scratch. And so Kurt Russell and one of the
producers named Jim Jacks, they get together and start working
on the script and they cut out the twenty pages
and Kurt Russell has said what I did to maintain
the script and still cut out these huge chunks was
to cut my own part. Yeah, that's interesting. But like
Robert Burke, he was fifth built, like he was built
above Bill Paxson and Sam Elliott. Yeah, but you don't
hear any lines from him because they cut all of
those parts, and so that became a little bit strange.
They brought in the guy we talked about a little
while ago, George Kus Mottos. Huh, Well, people just said
he was a jackass, like he was overbearing. They actually
had to pay, like the studio had to pay forty
thousand dollars in fines because of his abusive conduct. Michael
Bean said he saw he saw this happen, like when
they were shooting the opening wedding party scene. Yes, because
Mottos says to one of the Hispanic extras standing next
to Michael Bean, tell that Mexican with the big tis
to take two steps forward, and this guy.
Speaker 2: Got in trouble.
Speaker 1: What are you talking about, right? Yeah, And he says
what has been said that is true is that he
didn't really direct this. Michael Bean said he had said
three words to the guy. He said hello to him
at the beginning and at the end he said off like,
it was not a good relationship that this guy had
with the cast. But Kurt Russell was really the guy
doing this stuff. If you look at the Wikipedia page,
you're not going to get this information. What you're going
to get from Wikipedia was I'm quoting here. The new
director brought a demanding and hard nosed sensibility. Yeah, no,
he didn't.
Speaker 2: This is fascinating.
Speaker 1: He was a jerk.
Speaker 2: I really wanted you to say that, Michael Bean. His
last two words were well back.
Speaker 1: So when posed with the question to Michael Bean, He's like,
did Kurt Russell really direct this? And Michael Bean said, well,
it indirect me And I don't mean that insensitively. I'm
not saying he's a bad guy. The film wouldn't have
happened but for him getting involved and taking over and leading, right,
he said, But he understood that we were all quality
actors and he let us do our job, and that's
how this movie got made.
Speaker 2: The cast of Tombstone is really, I mean, super strong.
Speaker 1: It's top notch.
Speaker 2: I mean you got Kurt Russell, yep, you got Val Kilner, yep,
you got ours Booth and Michael Bean you've got Dana Delaney,
You've got Stephen Lange, underrated bad guy, Bill Paxson, Sam Elliott,
Charlton Heston, Charlton Heston, Charlton freaking Hasten.
Speaker 1: Oh, Johnny Ringo had a scene with Charlton Helston's character
Henry Hucker, but it was filmed by Kevin Jari, so
they had to cut it.
Speaker 2: Well, I got some names for you, Okay. So the
cast is phenomenal, right, I mean the brothers, I mean
Kurt Russell, Bill Paxon, Sam Elliott. I mean I believe
that those guys would walk down and clubbed me with
the heel of their gun, you know, absolutely all right.
So one of the original thoughts about casting Doc Holliday,
Ye William Dafoe, that woun entire how about that? You
know why he didn't get no because Buena Vista was
too scared because he had just kind of recently been
in Last Tentpation of Christ m For those of you
who hasn't seen that or don't remember that, that was
very controversial movie about the life of Jesus. Right, Mickey
Rourke was discussed to play Johnny Ringo. Okay, at that time,
I could see it. Maybe Robert Mitcham was supposed to
be old Man Clanton, like the Robert Mitcham.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, Robert Mitcham was the one that had done
the narrating, right well, yeah, it was that was him
narrating the beginning.
Speaker 2: The reason why he's the narrator and not in it
is because he told off the horse and broke his back.
Oh gosh.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: And also longtime Western actor Glenn Ford was supposed to
be Marshall White. Hmmmn, I mean you talk about I
mean Rob Mitcham and Glenn Ford and Charlton Heston the
cast freaking unbelievable. But I wanted to point out Michael
Bean and Bill Paxton had been in The Lords of
Discipline together. Yeah, and they had also been in Terminator.
Speaker 1: This is I'm going to tell the story now. This
is actually the fifth movie that they were in together. Fifth, yeah,
he said. But Michael Bean said it was weird. They
would faction off like the herps. The actors playing the
IRPs would go do their own thing, and the actors
playing the cowboys would go do their and they they
formed their own clicks. He's like, I've been in this
five movies with Bill Packson and we barely spoke the
entire time, like we had dinner one night and ended
it early.
Speaker 2: That's crazy, man, that's crazy.
Speaker 1: But I mean I can see it, like the I
can see the camaraderie of the Cowboys. I can see
the brotherly love of the IRPs. That something to it,
you know, hang out with the people that you're supposed
to be close with in the movie to create that yond.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like the Greasers and the Soshi, right,
the Jets and the Shark. So those five movies are
Lords of Discipline, Yeah, Terminator, Yeah, Aliens splashback to her
Aliens episode, Yeah, Navy Seals and Tombstone Yeah boom. All right,
you ready talk cast on young Guns.
Speaker 1: So before we move on to the casting of Young
Guns and Young Guns too, I got a couple of
interesting cast members for you. Are you ready for this?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the part of Billy Claiborne in Tombstone played
by Wyatt the Third And I know you don't know
this because I asked you beforehand, Ed Ed Bailey the
guy at the beginning, Yes, why Ed? Does this mean
we are not friends? Yeah? Played by mister frank Stallone.
Speaker 2: I did not even recognize him.
Speaker 1: I know, right, I saw that and I was like,
who was who was Frank Stallone in this? And I'm
like him, I'm like, oh my gosh, if you, you know,
take away the feathered hair and you stick a mustache on.
Speaker 2: But yeah, when you sus you said that, I'm like,
absolutely in a great part.
Speaker 6: Does a great job, que the more than over music,
Frank Stallone?
Speaker 1: All right, that's all I got. That's all I got
on the cast, so we can keep going.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 1: I will have to say, it's interesting that we just
did that and we did not talk about Dana Delaney
at all.
Speaker 2: Let's hey, okay, let's talk about Dan Lane.
Speaker 1: Okay. Now, remember this part was supposed to go to
Kevin Jerry's girlfriend Lisa's name. Obviously that didn't happen. They
mixed that idea.
Speaker 2: Okay, you have Kurt Russell, Val Kilmer, Charlton Asta, Yeah,
Stephen Lane, Powers Booth, Michael Ban, Bill Pass. The cast
was outstanding. What do you think about Dan Delaney?
Speaker 1: So what I'm reading, I'm going back to when I
texted you. Okay, so last night at I'm sorry, this morning,
at two of five am, I texted you I'm really
thankful for the love story parts of Tombstone so that
I know when I can get up to leave and
get something to eat or look up something on IMDb. Awful.
Speaker 2: The love story I told you is really an anchor
around the neck of Tombstone.
Speaker 1: Really is.
Speaker 2: It doesn't sink the movie, but it drags in. I
don't think they have any chemistry at all.
Speaker 1: I'm in the I'm in the kitchen microwaving, and I'm like, better, look,
it's still not over. I got I got out on
her stage performance. I got out on the accidental meeting
as they're riding horses. So I saved myself the agony
of that.
Speaker 2: By the way, we forgot to mention Billy zaying yeah
and Jason Priestley Jason Priestley.
Speaker 1: What, Yeah, So Jason Priestley, there's something there. I'm gonna
touch that real quick since she s brought it up.
So Jason Priestley was friends with the cowboys and had
gotten deputized by the sheriff, right right, Well, his character
is Billy Breckinridge. Billy Breckinridge wrote a book about whyaet
Art and it was not a flattering book like it
was the other side, and his widow did everything she
could to stop it, but it became one of the
most famous books about Wyatt Art and it was not
a rosy colored picture of him. Wow. Yeah Wow.
Speaker 2: Back to Dana Delaney, Yes, sorry, okay, they gave us
nothing with her. You and I talked.
Speaker 1: About there's no passion at all in this thing, no
passion at all, And you've got a little bit of
like sexiness when she's in there taking the photograph.
Speaker 2: Is there sexiness?
Speaker 1: You have a little bit of an attempt at sexiness
whenever she's in there taking the photograph right before the
shootout at the OK Corral.
Speaker 2: Which let's just talk about. Yeah, to me, that was
very interesting that actually happened right.
Speaker 1: Like she's in that dark lacy thing. Yes, you sent
me a picture today.
Speaker 2: You can look it up on the internet. Yes, you
get better look of Josie Erp than you do Dan
de Delaney, absolutely, And Josie Rp was bringing the heat
back then. Man for a woman.
Speaker 1: I can see why he was like distracted, was sure, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2: So danan Delaney can be sexy in this movie. Munch nothing, no, nothing.
Speaker 1: Okay, guys, we're gonna have to stop now. We will
come back next week for part two of Tombston Versus
Young Guns one and two. Be sure to tune in
and hit your subscribe button so that you don't miss
the episode when it comes out on Tuesday, where we
get into some of the coolest facts behind these business.
Speaker 2: When we come back, Hell's coming with us. You don't
Hell come in with me.