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Speaker 6: What you are now listening to? True Murder The most
Speaker 6: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 6: have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK
Speaker 6: every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 6: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 6: your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good evening, terrifying
Speaker 6: things are happening to Kay Wedden, forty, single mom and
Speaker 6: high school teacher in Salisbury, North Carolina. Despite having no
Speaker 6: known enemies, Kay's home, car, and peace of mind are
Speaker 6: under atten throughout nineteen ninety three. Most chilling of all
Speaker 6: are the senseless attacks on only on her only son
Speaker 6: and the shot fired in the night through a wall
Speaker 6: of her house which narrowly misses his head as he sleeps.
Speaker 6: Kay's new love interest is the charming Victor Gunnerson. He's
Speaker 6: a handsome Swede who left his home country to seek
Speaker 6: political asylum in the US after being charged with the
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty six assassination of Sweden's Prime Minister Palmy. Victor
Speaker 6: was briefly held in custody, but subsequently released due to
Speaker 6: lack of evidence. The romantic connection between Kay and Victor
Speaker 6: is immediate and intense until Victor disappears without warning, leaving
Speaker 6: Kay baffled and sad. Kay leans on her loving, elderly
Speaker 6: mother Katherine Miller for solace until Catherine is brewly murdered
Speaker 6: inside her home by an unknown intruder. With nowhere else
Speaker 6: to turn, Kay reconnects with her ex fiancee, Elsie Underwood,
Speaker 6: a seasoned police officer particularly a depth at criminal investigations.
Speaker 6: Elsie assures k he will get to the bottom of
Speaker 6: the incessant and tormenting occurrences. When Victor's nude body is
Speaker 6: found two hours away in the snowy Appalachian Mountains, local
Speaker 6: Sheriff's detective Paula May is assigned to investigate his murder.
Speaker 6: What follows is an intense, hair raising investigation that will
Speaker 6: shock you from the bitterly cold beginning to the unthinkable end.
Speaker 6: The book that we're featuring this evening is First Degree Rage,
Speaker 6: The true story of the assassin and obsession and murder
Speaker 6: with my special guest, author and detective Paula May. Welcome
Speaker 6: to the program, and thank you very much for reading
Speaker 6: to his interview.
Speaker 7: Paula May, thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 7: Thank you so much. It's a fascinating book, and your
Speaker 7: first hand experience and access to this makes this all
Speaker 7: the more remarkable. Let's both Blue Ridge Mountain. Thank you.
Speaker 7: Let's go to the Blue Ridge Mountains of Appalachia. As
Speaker 7: you do, as you introduce us to the story here,
Speaker 7: tell us a little bit about your work, a little
Speaker 7: bit of your background where you were at this time
Speaker 7: in nineteen ninety three and Wataga County Sheriff's Department in Boone,
Speaker 7: North Carolina. Just tell us a little bit about your
Speaker 7: work there and a little bit about the community itself
Speaker 7: where it is.
Speaker 3: Sure the area is where I was born and grew up.
Speaker 3: Attended elementary school, high school, and college there at apple
Speaker 3: Wachistek University in the city of Bain. And while I
Speaker 3: was in college, I started working part time for the
Speaker 3: local sheriff's office there, and when I graduated with criminal
Speaker 3: justice degree, the sheriff hired me full time. I became
Speaker 3: a sworn officer and he sent me to training, and
Speaker 3: he did not have any female officers at the time.
Speaker 3: And as I began to become involved in child abuse cases,
Speaker 3: rape cases, and cases of domestic violence, there appeared to
Speaker 3: be a real need for female investigator in the sheriff's department,
Speaker 3: and so he hired me in the investigations division. And
Speaker 3: I had been working there for about six years, and
Speaker 3: it was a small division, so I investigated every kind
Speaker 3: of crime there was. I began to get involved in
Speaker 3: the more serious investigations, and eventually a lot of the
Speaker 3: murder investigations, all kinds of death investigations and violent crimes.
Speaker 3: And I was on call on this particular day in January.
Speaker 3: It was actually nineteen ninety four. So although the book
Speaker 3: talks a lot about the events of December of nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety three, I became involved in nineteen ninety four. It
Speaker 3: was January seventh, with the discovery of the body of
Speaker 3: a nude man who was found by some Department of
Speaker 3: Transportation survey workers who were looking for landmarkers in the
Speaker 3: woods there and came upon a pair of bear feet
Speaker 3: seeking up out of the snow.
Speaker 7: Now you originally don't know whose jurisdiction this is, because
Speaker 7: this might be US Park Service or the FBI's jurisdiction.
Speaker 7: Tell us how you proceed from that, what's the result
Speaker 7: of that, and who joins you in this investigation.
Speaker 3: That's correct. The location where the body was found was
Speaker 3: kind of in the corner of the woods there at
Speaker 3: the intersection of the Blue Rich Parkway, which is of
Speaker 3: course a federal highway, a scenic highway, and US for
Speaker 3: twenty one. So we we did not know on that
Speaker 3: moment of our arrival if we were going to be
Speaker 3: on federal property there or actually just on the county property,
Speaker 3: which while we were there, we would have all worked
Speaker 3: together initially at the crime scene anyway, assisting each other,
Speaker 3: but as far as the responsibility of the investigation that
Speaker 3: would follow, that would fall with the federal jurisdiction of
Speaker 3: the Park Service, and you know, I'm sure they would
Speaker 3: be assisted by the FBI, or the primary jurisdiction was
Speaker 3: ours would be ours, And as it turns out, the
Speaker 3: body was found just thirty nine feet off of federal property,
Speaker 3: so it was our responsibility for the investigation. I was
Speaker 3: the detective on call on that day, and it was
Speaker 3: a very cold, very cold, windy and snowy day, and
Speaker 3: I had not intended to do anything but stay in
Speaker 3: the office that day. But of course, you know, you know,
Speaker 3: the best laid plans of mice and men kind of thing.
Speaker 3: But so I ended up with the investigation.
Speaker 7: You talk about two and this is you mentioned this
Speaker 7: phrase a few times in the book, and I think
Speaker 7: it's important you talk about the line intervention in that
Speaker 7: this surveyor found the body. But it was very, very lucky.
Speaker 7: You say that it wasn't overlooked, and you attributed this
Speaker 7: as just one of the instances of the mind intervention
Speaker 7: in this, don't you Absolutely?
Speaker 3: And I can tell you that from beginning to end
Speaker 3: of that investigation, and of course not just that investigation,
Speaker 3: but absolutely God had led our footsteps through that investigation
Speaker 3: and he I'm a one hundred percent convinced the case
Speaker 3: would not have been solved otherwise because from the beginning
Speaker 3: of the discovery of the body, all the way to
Speaker 3: the end of the discovery of the amazing discovery of
Speaker 3: the physical evidence. I think that was Vaniell and have
Speaker 3: often said to speak, I think that was all divine intervention. Absolutely,
Speaker 3: it was also investigative work, Don't get me wrong, but absolutely,
Speaker 3: as he helped us all the way through, as he does.
Speaker 7: Now your long term sheriff, you have a relationship with them, Lyons.
Speaker 7: He said, let's get the SBI to help us. Not's
Speaker 7: North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation. So a person came
Speaker 7: temporarily sellers and agent sellers, but then the agent that
Speaker 7: was assigned was Steve Wilson, So Steve Wilson became part
Speaker 7: of your investigative team. What did you get from that
Speaker 7: original crime scene you talked about the victim being nude.
Speaker 7: You had found that the body had been there for
Speaker 7: some days, and some animal preditation had had occurred on
Speaker 7: the ear and the nose, things, you know, which is
Speaker 7: not uncommon. What did you comment before you tell me
Speaker 7: about what you could deduce you and your team could
Speaker 7: deduce from that crime scene itself? Initially? What did you
Speaker 7: deduced from the idea that this person in the winter
Speaker 7: was left nude in the snow.
Speaker 3: Well in the beginning, as only his feet were you know,
Speaker 3: visible coming out of the snow, we did not know
Speaker 3: at that point if this entire body was nude, because
Speaker 3: that was all that we could see. But obviously there
Speaker 3: was some animal activity on his left foot. He was
Speaker 3: laying on his back and both his feet were a
Speaker 3: thought of the snow, But there was some animal activity
Speaker 3: on his left foot and toes, and so that caused
Speaker 3: us to think he had been there at least, you know,
Speaker 3: for some time. But also because of the extreme cold temperatures,
Speaker 3: his body was very well preserved, whereas if it had
Speaker 3: been spring or summertime, the decomposition would have been a
Speaker 3: lot greater and there would be less evidence to obtain
Speaker 3: from the autopsy and so forth. But once we began
Speaker 3: to remove a little bit of the snow from him,
Speaker 3: and we we did try to preserve as much as
Speaker 3: we could of the dirt and the snow and things
Speaker 3: right around his body as we loaded him onto the stretcher,
Speaker 3: because we did not know if there were you know,
Speaker 3: other pieces of maybe trace and fiber evidence in that snow.
Speaker 3: But after we realized that he was nude, we did
Speaker 3: see that he had a watch and a ring on
Speaker 3: his left hand, So we felt at that point that
Speaker 3: it was unlikely to have been a robbery because those
Speaker 3: items appeared to be gold and appeared to be, you know,
Speaker 3: of some value. Also, it was clearly evident that he
Speaker 3: was shot twice in the head, once on the left
Speaker 3: temple and then on the right side of his neck,
Speaker 3: so it was very obviously a murder, not a suicide.
Speaker 3: Of course, there was no weapon there and so forth,
Speaker 3: but there were no other identifying characteristics that we could
Speaker 3: see at that point, and we knew that within our
Speaker 3: own jurisdiction we did not have an active missing person
Speaker 3: report currently.
Speaker 7: Right, you had another bit of evidence, though what was
Speaker 7: important was two kinds of tape, so that you could
Speaker 7: conclude that the victim was bound with tape when he
Speaker 7: was shot. Tell us a little bit more about this
Speaker 7: tape discovery.
Speaker 3: Sure, absolutely, and it was Sheriff Lyons himself who found
Speaker 3: that tape, not the crime scene investigators, but as we
Speaker 3: were waiting for the State Bureau of Investigations to arrive
Speaker 3: with the field agent and then the crime scene team,
Speaker 3: which we requested because of the sheer, you know, size
Speaker 3: of the area that needed to be covered, we did
Speaker 3: try to locate anything that we could see before darkness fell,
Speaker 3: because this is in the in the evening on this day,
Speaker 3: the late afternoon, and so two or three feet away
Speaker 3: from the body, Sheriff Lyons was examining some of the
Speaker 3: area on the ground and he uncovered a length of
Speaker 3: tape and it was one strip of tape, but that
Speaker 3: particular strip, which was probably about eighteen inches long, that
Speaker 3: particular strip was made of both masking tape and black
Speaker 3: electrical tape, and the masking tape was underneath and the
Speaker 3: back of the masking tape where the adhesive compound is
Speaker 3: were adhered appear to be head, dark short hair, and
Speaker 3: tiny droplets of blood and also one very notable hole
Speaker 3: that appeared to be about a twenty two caliber bullet hole,
Speaker 3: which it was. And then eventually we were able to
Speaker 3: show that the hair and the blood all came from
Speaker 3: the body of the victim. So there was no evidence
Speaker 3: from that particular piece of tape as far as far
Speaker 3: as being able to link the suspect to that tape,
Speaker 3: with the exception of the electrical tape which later we
Speaker 3: found to match in twenty some different characteristics with electrical
Speaker 3: tape that was found in the suspect's residence.
Speaker 7: Okay, let's get back to what you found at this with.
Speaker 7: You have the tape, you also have that you get
Speaker 7: a call shortly after while you're looking through missing me
Speaker 7: ports in the county itself, you get a call from
Speaker 7: a Lieutenant Harrison from Salisbury Police Department, which is two
Speaker 7: hours southeast of Boone between Wiston, Salem and Charlotte. So
Speaker 7: this person has identified as forty one year old Victor Gunnerson.
Speaker 7: And as we mentioned in the introduction, what do you
Speaker 7: find out you and your team about this Victor Gunnerson
Speaker 7: and his past very interesting.
Speaker 3: Well, that was when I probably the first time I
Speaker 3: realized this was not going to be an ordinary almost
Speaker 3: i'd kay, because what I've learned from that initial conversation
Speaker 3: with Lieutenant Harrison was that they had a man whose
Speaker 3: physical description in general, the physical description that we had
Speaker 3: broadcast about our unidentified murdered body. And he said, of course,
Speaker 3: we don't know for certain if this is the same
Speaker 3: man or not, but as I'm talking to him on
Speaker 3: this phone call, he shares with me that if it
Speaker 3: is Victor Gunnerson. Victor Gunerson had been in his jurisdiction,
Speaker 3: the city of Salisbury in Rowan County, North Carolina, and
Speaker 3: had been there because he had fled the country of
Speaker 3: Sweden seeking political asylum, and in fact he had been
Speaker 3: arrested and charged with the assassination of Prime Minister Olof
Speaker 3: Palme in February of nineteen eighty six. What I learned
Speaker 3: subsequently was of course more details about that, but essentially
Speaker 3: he had been arrested fairly quickly after the assassination, and
Speaker 3: he was in custody and his wife or the wife
Speaker 3: of the prime minister, who was with them at the
Speaker 3: time he was shot, got a glimpse of the shooter space.
Speaker 3: And so when they presented her with a lineup which
Speaker 3: included Victor Gunnarson, she was unable to identify Victor Gunnarson
Speaker 3: from that lineup, and so they released him from custody.
Speaker 3: And then Victor Gunnarson ended up suing the government claiming
Speaker 3: false arress and so forth, and came to the United States. Right.
Speaker 3: That assassination, by the way, remains unsolved to this day.
Speaker 7: Now, let's get to Victor Gunnerson once. Obviously they find
Speaker 7: him in the woods, naked, and there's little evidence of
Speaker 7: to point to any perpetrator. Now you go to his apartment,
Speaker 7: what do you find with his apartment? And how do
Speaker 7: you proceed after going to that apartment? As you write
Speaker 7: in the book, you tell us the proper procedure is
Speaker 7: to reach out to all kinds of people, associates, neighbors.
Speaker 7: Tell us a little bit about how once you find
Speaker 7: out about Victor, how do you proceed with finding out
Speaker 7: more information about how he came to his demise.
Speaker 3: So there was a number of avenues that we initially
Speaker 3: explored from the very of course, we're trying to get
Speaker 3: the body identified, So we're speaking with inner Poll and
Speaker 3: other national and international organizations and law enforcement agencies to
Speaker 3: help us get dental records and fingerprints and so forth
Speaker 3: from Sweden to identify him. And at the same time
Speaker 3: we're talking with those authorities and learning more about him,
Speaker 3: his family, what happened with him in Sweden, and the
Speaker 3: assassination of the prime minister. So that was very intriguing
Speaker 3: to me dealing with all of those international agencies in
Speaker 3: a homicide investigation. But at the same time I also
Speaker 3: learned that Victor Gunnarson had been reported missing in December
Speaker 3: from his apartment in Salisbury, and because that he was
Speaker 3: reported missing to the local authorities there, they had been
Speaker 3: investigating the missing person's report. So there were officers who
Speaker 3: had already gone to Victor Gunnarson's apartment and although you know,
Speaker 3: they did not alter anything or so forth, but there
Speaker 3: have been other officers present there to give us an
Speaker 3: idea of what to expect before we ever went there.
Speaker 3: And so Don Gale, he was a major character in
Speaker 3: the book, was the Phield agent assigned to the UH
Speaker 3: to the case there, and Terry Agner was an investigator
Speaker 3: with the Rowan County Sheriff's office, So they were they
Speaker 3: were already involved and teaming up investigating from that end,
Speaker 3: just like Steve Wilson and I and the others were
Speaker 3: investigating from Watauga County. So we met up with him
Speaker 3: very quickly, and the four of us very quickly combined
Speaker 3: the efforts to you know, carry out the investigation. But
Speaker 3: to answer your question, once uh, we got inside a
Speaker 3: Victor's apartment, we found he was living on an inn
Speaker 3: apartment of a two story complex that he was on
Speaker 3: the second story on the end, with a set of
Speaker 3: steps right beside his apartment. We learned that his apartment
Speaker 3: door had not been shut and locked all of the
Speaker 3: all the way since he was reported missing. His only
Speaker 3: car was still in its parking spot where he always
Speaker 3: parked it, and in the same manner he always parked
Speaker 3: it because he never pulled in straight. It was a
Speaker 3: long car, uh the Lincoln, and he parked it diagonal
Speaker 3: and it was still parked that way. Inside his apartment,
Speaker 3: his passport, his keys, his wallet was still there, his shoes,
Speaker 3: his leather jacket that he wore all the time. Then
Speaker 3: it appeared that possibly from the way his bed was
Speaker 3: that he had been in bed and just pulled the
Speaker 3: covers back and gotten up out of the bed and
Speaker 3: speculating maybe that you know, he had gotten up to
Speaker 3: answer the door.
Speaker 7: What about the what did the officer note about the
Speaker 7: telephone and message in those days as an answering machine
Speaker 7: attached to a telephone.
Speaker 3: So initially the apartment manager and the custodian of the
Speaker 3: apartments and other people had noticed that the answering machine
Speaker 3: was on and he appeared to have several messages. But
Speaker 3: by the time that we and other law enforcement got
Speaker 3: in there, the cassette tape was missing out of his
Speaker 3: answering machine, and the answering machine was no longer working,
Speaker 3: and people that tried to call him and check on
Speaker 3: him before his body was ever found noted that all
Speaker 3: of a sudden's answer machine had changed and what they
Speaker 3: heard allowed them to allow them to not be able
Speaker 3: to leave a voicemail message right whereas they had before.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Now, in this investigation, like I had mentioned, you
Speaker 7: have to find out who could possibly know, So you
Speaker 7: look up the associates of everyone to find out if
Speaker 7: there's anybody that knows anything about this. Again, this is
Speaker 7: there's so much any mysteries to this, and you have
Speaker 7: read at the very beginning of this investigation, How does
Speaker 7: it come that you find out about Kay Wedden tell
Speaker 7: us about thoughts?
Speaker 3: Okay, it's Whedon, k Whedon, and so Don Gale and
Speaker 3: Terry Agner are the investigators in Salisbury. One of the
Speaker 3: first things that they made us aware of was the
Speaker 3: fact that they were investigating the homicide of a missus
Speaker 3: Catherine Miller. She was murdered inside her home, two gunshots
Speaker 3: to the head, She was seventy seven years old, no
Speaker 3: known enemies, and that homicide had occurred on December eighth
Speaker 3: of nineteen ninety three. And the one thing that linked
Speaker 3: Victor Gunnerson and his murder to the murder of Katherine
Speaker 3: Miller was the fact that Katherine Miller's daughter was Kay Whedon.
Speaker 3: Kay Whedon had also been dating Victor Gunnarson for about
Speaker 3: a week before he went missing, so she was the
Speaker 3: common denominator in both of those investigations. Jain so that
Speaker 3: immediately drew the attention of the investigators to her and
Speaker 3: began a series of many many interviews and conversations with
Speaker 3: Kay Whedon, also with her son, Jason Miller or Jason Wadon.
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, now, what did you find out initially from
Speaker 7: this about his behavior, his behavior but also his character.
Speaker 7: What did you find out right from the get go
Speaker 7: from speaking with Kay about this.
Speaker 3: Person, about Victor Gunnarson or about.
Speaker 7: Someone else, about when you talk about when you talk
Speaker 7: to Kay and when you talk to her about about
Speaker 7: about her boyfriend, about the person that she leaned on
Speaker 7: about the cop so okay, when she when she talks
Speaker 7: about that, when you were talking to her about her
Speaker 7: relationship with Underwood, what does she say about his character?
Speaker 7: What is right from the get go some of the
Speaker 7: things she has to say about the relationship.
Speaker 3: She said that her relationship with her former fiance's name
Speaker 3: was They'll see Underwood was very dysfunctional. It was very controlling.
Speaker 3: Underwood was very manipulative towards her, very threatening, and I
Speaker 3: heard very little that was positive about their relationship. Now
Speaker 3: at the beginning, and as we learned from talking with
Speaker 3: other women that had been involved with him in his past,
Speaker 3: at the beginning, he was very charming. He was he
Speaker 3: seemed like he had everything together and uh, you know,
Speaker 3: every every woman's dream.
Speaker 5: And the.
Speaker 3: Most interesting part to me about him when I first
Speaker 3: learned about him was the fact that he was a
Speaker 3: police officer and he was currently employed at in December
Speaker 3: of nineteen ninety three as a school resource officer for
Speaker 3: the City of Cauldbury.
Speaker 7: Right when you spoke with Kay Whedon as well, you
Speaker 7: talked about the relationship with Victor, as you discover that
Speaker 7: there was this relationship, tell us how she met Victor
Speaker 7: and the nature of the relationship, and then you spoke
Speaker 7: to her about that very last evening that they spent together.
Speaker 3: Okay. Kay was at the time an English teacher at
Speaker 3: the local high school, not at the high school where
Speaker 3: Underwood worked, but nearby, and she of course was a
Speaker 3: single mom. She was divorced, and she was raised and
Speaker 3: her teenage son Jason.
Speaker 5: And.
Speaker 3: As had been as she had done before, she had
Speaker 3: an exchange student in her home who was Jason, her
Speaker 3: son's age, and his name was Michel and he was
Speaker 3: from Denmark, I believe, And so there was a little
Speaker 3: trouble communicating at times. And one of Kay's girlfriends had
Speaker 3: said that she had a friend that was from Sweden
Speaker 3: and apparently they had a lot of things in common,
Speaker 3: and she wanted to introduce Ka to her friend, who
Speaker 3: turned out to be Victor Gunnarson, so that they could
Speaker 3: all get together and Michel you know, could have someone,
Speaker 3: uh that he could communicate well with and talk with
Speaker 3: and so forth. So a mutual friend introduced K to Victor,
Speaker 3: and apparently there was you know, sparks right away and
Speaker 3: uh mutual attraction and they started talking and had lengthy
Speaker 3: conversations and began seeing each other. And that was just
Speaker 3: over a week or so before Victor went missing, so
Speaker 3: they saw each other practically.
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Speaker 3: Three nine, you know, had long conversations on the phone
Speaker 3: and so forth. And the last time that Kay saw
Speaker 3: Victor was the night of Friday, December third, when she,
Speaker 3: her mother, and Victor had gone out to dinner at
Speaker 3: a local feafood restaurant, and then Victor had come over
Speaker 3: to her house and had spent the evening they uh.
Speaker 3: Jason came home a little later, and he and his
Speaker 3: friends and Kay and Victor were all sitting around the
Speaker 3: fire pit right outside Kay's home by the street, you know,
Speaker 3: just chatting and talking. And it was at that time
Speaker 3: that Kay noticed and had some conversation with Victor about
Speaker 3: the signet ring that he was wearing, which is the
Speaker 3: ring that he was still wearing when his body was
Speaker 3: discovered in Wataga County. But was here that night that
Speaker 3: they saw a car they recognized drive by, and Jason
Speaker 3: made the comment Monte Carlo to communicate to Kay that
Speaker 3: was Underwood driving by. Now Kay knew that she had
Speaker 3: been the subject of his stalking, of Underwood stalking for
Speaker 3: some time, but you know, was hoping that that was
Speaker 3: becoming a thing of the past and that he was
Speaker 3: no longer terrorizing her, but he was indeed still stalking her.
Speaker 7: Now, in your investigation, I know that the audience will
Speaker 7: be still not clear of what's going on in this story.
Speaker 7: But in your investigation, you talked to all kinds of people,
Speaker 7: including the former police chief or the police chief of
Speaker 7: Salisbury Police Department, and talk about Underwood, Lamont Ce Underwood
Speaker 7: and his stay there and some of the things that
Speaker 7: happened in his tenure as a police officer. So, as
Speaker 7: you write in the book, tell us what you found
Speaker 7: out about his career and again his career and his
Speaker 7: character as a police officer.
Speaker 3: Well, so the book begins with when I got involved
Speaker 3: in the case and then and so this is just
Speaker 3: exactly the order that things happened as far as the investigation.
Speaker 3: Once we realized that Underwood's name kept coming up and
Speaker 3: that he had become a suspect in the you know,
Speaker 3: in both situations, Captain Miller and Victor Gunnarson, we went
Speaker 3: back to the very beginning to Underwood's childhood and started
Speaker 3: investigating everything that we could find about him, and we
Speaker 3: learned that he had been abandoned by both his parents,
Speaker 3: he had stayed with some family members for a short time,
Speaker 3: and that it was a physically abusive and mentally abusive situation.
Speaker 3: They eventually pretty much dumped him off at the orphanage
Speaker 3: in the city of Winston Salem where he grew up
Speaker 3: once he turned eighteen. The day he turned teen, he
Speaker 3: left there and he attempted a brief military career and
Speaker 3: he got right back out, and so he went into
Speaker 3: a law enforcement career, and he started working at North
Speaker 3: Wilks for a police department as a reserve officer, and
Speaker 3: from and everybody that's in this area all you know,
Speaker 3: all these places are familiar. But he went from there
Speaker 3: to another agency, and another agency and another agency, and
Speaker 3: each time that he spent at each agency, he would
Speaker 3: eventually get into trouble over a woman or women, and
Speaker 3: some dysfunctional relationships, some very violent relationships where he would
Speaker 3: stalk them, he would beat them. One lady spent several
Speaker 3: days in hospital. But he terrorized them in many different ways,
Speaker 3: and probably the worst was the psychological because we find
Speaker 3: him spray painting graffiti on their homes or in one case,
Speaker 3: on the outside wall of this lady's church, something really
Speaker 3: ugly and derogatory, and it's always in red spray paint.
Speaker 3: And incidentally, red spray paint cans were found in the
Speaker 3: trunk of his patrol car at one of the departments.
Speaker 3: And so back then, and this is particularly something that
Speaker 3: gets under my skin, is the lack of documentation in
Speaker 3: the personnel files. We would get our court orders and
Speaker 3: we'd go there and we'd hear about these things happened, happening,
Speaker 3: and when we get to these agencies, would look at
Speaker 3: this personnel file and there is no documentation of these
Speaker 3: incidents there. So then we went and we would try
Speaker 3: to find find, you know, the sheriff, the chief or
Speaker 3: a supervisor and talk with them. And in many cases
Speaker 3: it was a time period where that kind of documentation
Speaker 3: just was not maintained, where they preferred to handle things
Speaker 3: face to face personally, and a sheriff, for instance, would say,
Speaker 3: you know, no need to write all that down, I
Speaker 3: just need to handle it, you know, man to man,
Speaker 3: and so he got very little discipline. He got a
Speaker 3: lot of lectures, but very little discipline, and if it
Speaker 3: got to be too eated, he would just move on
Speaker 3: to another la enforcement agency that carried him for nineteen
Speaker 3: years in law enforcement. I think he'd been eight years
Speaker 3: with the Salisbury Police Department before he was finally suspended.
Speaker 3: It's just unbelievable to me, having been a policey for
Speaker 3: you know, the past ten years. We document everything, even
Speaker 3: in certainly in the investigations, everything is documented, and so
Speaker 3: there was a different time period and I realized that,
Speaker 3: but it just, you know, it would get under my
Speaker 3: skin that there was not a documentation of these things
Speaker 3: that for number one, were criminal in nature and should
Speaker 3: have taken his certification. But you know, a lack of
Speaker 3: documentation and a lack of discipline, you know, I just
Speaker 3: have a problem with that.
Speaker 7: There are women that you speak to in this to
Speaker 7: learn again about the behavior and character of Elsie Underwood,
Speaker 7: Lamont Underwood.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 7: There are women like Pam and Jeanie and Linda and
Speaker 7: Monica at different times in this investigation. What tell us
Speaker 7: about just in general, some of the conversations and information
Speaker 7: you garner from speaking to these people regarding his character behavior.
Speaker 3: Well, after the first couple of ladies that I spoke with,
Speaker 3: and they were all they were all educated women. They
Speaker 3: were they were not ignorant, they you know, they they
Speaker 3: were educated, they were intelligent. Uh, they're very attractive, they
Speaker 3: were very successful in their careers, and they all seem
Speaker 3: to have a very good support system as far as
Speaker 3: their family and their network. But after about the second one,
Speaker 3: all the stories were the same, only the faces and
Speaker 3: the names changed, but their relationships were described to me
Speaker 3: as all starting out the same way. Elsie was very charming,
Speaker 3: he was very polite, he was very sensitive and very caring,
Speaker 3: and then he became very controlling. So he could only
Speaker 3: maintain that facade for a short period of time. And
Speaker 3: each one of them he wanted to push into a
Speaker 3: serious relationship very quickly, and three of them into marriage
Speaker 3: very quickly, and of course those marriages did not could
Speaker 3: not last. But he would become very jealous, possessive, whether
Speaker 3: it was one of the girls going to the beach
Speaker 3: with her friends, and he just about came unglued because
Speaker 3: she had done that every summer, and that was a
Speaker 3: girls trip that they would take and enjoy perfectly innocent,
Speaker 3: but he would just he would go nuts if they
Speaker 3: did not get home after work at the time that
Speaker 3: he thought they should arrived home, he would go nuts.
Speaker 3: One girl in particular, she realized that he was watching
Speaker 3: her from across the lake at her house and was
Speaker 3: counting the grocery bags that she was carrying in her
Speaker 3: house and immediately calls her and ask her, why you know,
Speaker 3: who are you seeing? Why do you need so many
Speaker 3: bags of groceries, and just ridiculous things like that, And
Speaker 3: the more they tried to get away from him, the
Speaker 3: more angry and violent that he became.
Speaker 7: Right now in this investigation as well, there is the
Speaker 7: bullet wounds from that. There was an investigation to try
Speaker 7: to obviously try to determine what that murder weapon was
Speaker 7: and to find it, if possible, tell us about that
Speaker 7: that look or that investigation into that gun and what he.
Speaker 3: Right. So, Victor Gunnarson was shot with a twenty two
Speaker 3: caliber weapon and Captain Miller was murdered with two shots
Speaker 3: of thirty eight. And we knew specific makes and models
Speaker 3: that could possibly have fired those guns, and then other
Speaker 3: max and models that could not have fired those guns.
Speaker 3: But we knew from interviews and from other records that
Speaker 3: Underwood did have both of those weapons that could have
Speaker 3: been fired. But throughout the investigation, as you know from
Speaker 3: reading the book, those weapons disappeared very quickly after the
Speaker 3: murders and to this day have never been located. One
Speaker 3: in particular, he had kept from one of the law
Speaker 3: enforcement agencies where he worked, and so there's you know,
Speaker 3: there's records about that that gun. And then we have
Speaker 3: eyewitnesses people I talked to that saw the gun, that
Speaker 3: saw it at his house, or saw him with it,
Speaker 3: and so we knew with the you know, certainty that
Speaker 3: he had those each of those weapons up until the
Speaker 3: time of the murders.
Speaker 7: How do you proceed with this investigation once you get
Speaker 7: a clear picture that this is your suspect. Tell us
Speaker 7: more about tightening the news around this suspect. Again, it
Speaker 7: was not an easy or quick process. Tell us what
Speaker 7: you do next.
Speaker 3: It was not a quick process, and it was further
Speaker 3: complicated by the fact that he was a law enforcement officer.
Speaker 3: So as you can imagine, people employed at those agencies
Speaker 3: were reluctant to want to get involved in this investigation.
Speaker 3: Some were very defensive of him. Some believed there was
Speaker 3: absolutely no way that he could that he would be
Speaker 3: capable of committing such rrible acts. Others who knew him
Speaker 3: on a personal level were familiar with his personality quirks,
Speaker 3: and then with his following checking up on stalking of
Speaker 3: kay Whedon and so they knew more about his personality
Speaker 3: and they were although hesitant to say, yeah, I think
Speaker 3: he killed these people, they were more like, well, I
Speaker 3: think it's possible that he might have.
Speaker 6: But we did not.
Speaker 3: We weren't real roaded in the investigation who we weren't
Speaker 3: given false information. But it was a little difficult because
Speaker 3: people were reluctant to get involved in talk with us people.
Speaker 3: Other people were very forthcoming with their information. We talked
Speaker 3: to hundreds interviewed hundreds of people during this investigation, all
Speaker 3: four of us, and so every everybody might have a
Speaker 3: small piece of information, but they had a lot to contribute.
Speaker 3: But what we ended up with ultimately was a strong
Speaker 3: circumstantial case. We did not have any physical evidence. The
Speaker 3: first physical evidence that we found was when the lab
Speaker 3: contacted us and Well in February. We had conducted a
Speaker 3: search via a search warrant of Underwood's residence, and one
Speaker 3: of the items that we seized from his residence was
Speaker 3: some electrical tape from his utility room from his where's
Speaker 3: washing dryer were. And the first call we got with
Speaker 3: some physical evidence was John Bendura of the State Ree
Speaker 3: of Investigation in the crime Lab, and he had informed
Speaker 3: us that in twenty some different characteristics of the tape
Speaker 3: that the tape from Underwood's utility room matched the tape
Speaker 3: that Sheriff Lions found at the feet of the body
Speaker 3: at the crime team. So that was our first piece
Speaker 3: of physical evidence. But in talking with the prosecutor in
Speaker 3: Wataku County, the elected district attorney at that time was
Speaker 3: Tom Rouser, a brilliant prosecutor, and but he did not
Speaker 3: feel like that alone was a strong enough case that
Speaker 3: he wanted to take to a jury in a capital
Speaker 3: murder trial, so he wanted us to keep working. We
Speaker 3: ended up with putting a trap in trace and pen
Speaker 3: register on Underwood's phone, monitoring the numbers that came in
Speaker 3: and out of his home phone. We put a mail
Speaker 3: cover on his on his all his incoming and outgoing
Speaker 3: mail so that that those were copied, so that we
Speaker 3: could see he was who he was getting communications from
Speaker 3: that way, and then the lab had all of the
Speaker 3: evidence that they had fees for comparisons and purposes that
Speaker 3: came from the search for execution. And we had been
Speaker 3: in contact with John Bandura of the Lab Mini Comms,
Speaker 3: and he just was simply not finding anything in the
Speaker 3: evidence that would connect Underwood to the crime scene or
Speaker 3: to Victor Gunnarson's murder. And in fact, a couple of
Speaker 3: the items that were seized were the mats out of
Speaker 3: both of his personal vehicles, his for mats and the
Speaker 3: Trunck mats. And until he called us about what he
Speaker 3: found on that particular at that particular time, we did
Speaker 3: not have anything but the tape as far as his glevit.
Speaker 7: Now, before we talk about what he discovered, and again
Speaker 7: you note that as again an incident of divine intervention.
Speaker 7: But but before we talk about that, of all the
Speaker 7: people that you spoke to, what picture were you getting
Speaker 7: of where you should go with this investigation in terms
Speaker 7: of trying to get that bit of information that will
Speaker 7: be useful for Tom Rusher to be able to prosecute
Speaker 7: tell us of the because you talk about satellite imaging.
Speaker 7: So you guys went to all kinds of extent to
Speaker 7: try to be able to solve this case. Tell us
Speaker 7: a little bit more about the extent of this investigation.
Speaker 3: Well, there were many many things that we tried in
Speaker 3: the investigation, everything from satellite imaging, as you mentioned. At
Speaker 3: one point we even went to the police firing range
Speaker 3: where we actually dug up some of the roums that
Speaker 3: had been fired into the targets and the banks there
Speaker 3: at the firing range where he typically went to shoot,
Speaker 3: thinking that we could at least be able to show
Speaker 3: again circumstantially that where he had gone those rounds would
Speaker 3: match in different compositions, so forth the rounds that were
Speaker 3: fired into Victor Gunnarson and or Katherine Miller and that
Speaker 3: that was interesting and we got a lot of information,
Speaker 3: but nothing really specific that the kind of identifying information
Speaker 3: that we were looking for, so most of our information
Speaker 3: came from interviews. We did have another very compelling piece
Speaker 3: of information because the license plate of Victor Gunnarson was
Speaker 3: ran through the police system on the night of December third,
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three, the same night that kay Whedon had
Speaker 3: spent her last day with Victor Jennerson, Right, So what
Speaker 3: happened that at that time was that? And later we
Speaker 3: learned that Underwood and another person had driven by her
Speaker 3: house again stalking her. All of the person that was
Speaker 3: with him, he gave another preachse as to why they
Speaker 3: were going by there, But he had gone by, saw
Speaker 3: a strange car parked at her house, and most likely
Speaker 3: saw them outside of her house as they were talking
Speaker 3: with each other. And he had gone back to his house,
Speaker 3: called a buddy of his that worked with the sheriff's
Speaker 3: office and had him call and run that tag number,
Speaker 3: and that officer got the information as far as the
Speaker 3: name and address and so forth, and called Underwood and
Speaker 3: back and gave it to him that night, the night
Speaker 3: that Victor went missing.
Speaker 7: Yes, incredible. Let's us as an opportunity. Paul had to
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Speaker 7: hundred dash five hundred. Now, Paula, we spoke about the
Speaker 7: news tightening around L. C. Underwood, and that by virtue
Speaker 7: of the fiber forensic specialist Bandura saying that he had
Speaker 7: found again you've cited as divine intervention, what does he
Speaker 7: find that ends up being the key to be able
Speaker 7: to convince Tom Ruscher that you do have enough evidence
Speaker 7: to be able to rest Finally, Elsie Underwood.
Speaker 3: When we executed the search warrant, and a number of
Speaker 3: items were skyed to check because I described and those
Speaker 3: mats from the both of Underwood's cars. One of the
Speaker 3: items that he had was a trunk mat from Underwood
Speaker 3: and Money car Love. It was a piece of carpet,
Speaker 3: you know, very common people have those in the trunks
Speaker 3: of their cars, and so he had taken it back
Speaker 3: to the lab. I believe it was eleven months that
Speaker 3: he had that particular item in the laboratory, and he
Speaker 3: had taken vacuumings. He had gone through with tapings to
Speaker 3: collect and pick up fibers and hair and debris whatever
Speaker 3: might be on that trunk map. Now we already knew
Speaker 3: before we had executed the first warn and seized those items.
Speaker 3: That shortly after the those murders occurred, Underwood had taken
Speaker 3: both of his cars, his personal cars, to a professional
Speaker 3: car wash and had the entire interiors and exteriors cleaned
Speaker 3: from both of those cars, including having them shampoo and
Speaker 3: vacuum his trunk mats, which most people don't do that usually,
Speaker 3: And so we thought that was odd. That said, the
Speaker 3: lab had those items, and they had gone through and
Speaker 3: they had tried to collect things from the from the
Speaker 3: carpeted trunk maps and had came up with nothing of significance. However,
Speaker 3: after eleven months of analyzing this evidence, John Bendura called
Speaker 3: and he said, you're not going to believe this. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 3: And he said that he was rolling the up to
Speaker 3: package to mail back to us because he had found
Speaker 3: nothing on that and he as he was rolling that
Speaker 3: mat up and holding it up under the light, a
Speaker 3: single hair caught his eye that he had not seen
Speaker 3: or removed from that trunk map, and so he pulled
Speaker 3: it out. He said, in fact, by the time he
Speaker 3: got finished, there were I believe seventeen hares in that
Speaker 3: trunk map that were so ingrained in the fiber of
Speaker 3: the trunk mat that the traditional methods of the tapings
Speaker 3: and the vacuumings had not pulled them loose, and he
Speaker 3: actually had to go through and at one point he
Speaker 3: even cut the fiber of the mat to pull the
Speaker 3: hair out without breaking it. And he had looked at
Speaker 3: them under a microscope and microscopically they were consistent with
Speaker 3: the head hair of Victor Gunnerson, which we had previously
Speaker 3: submitted to him. And it was not a definitive match
Speaker 3: because it wasn't a DNA match, but microscopically they were consistent,
Speaker 3: and we became very excited at that point. But that's
Speaker 3: what I mean by divine intervention. As far as his
Speaker 3: you know, his uh scientific abilities, he had, he had
Speaker 3: done everything physically possible to collect that evidence. But when
Speaker 3: he held it up to the lights, which of course
Speaker 3: that there's a lot of symbolism there, but when he
Speaker 3: held it up to the light, that's when he saw
Speaker 3: the hair that you know, that was the culmination of
Speaker 3: everything in the case for us.
Speaker 7: Ultimately, now you talk about the again, the jubilation or
Speaker 7: excitement about this new development, is it enough to make
Speaker 7: an arrest and tell us about speaking finally with Elsie Underwood, as.
Speaker 5: You do.
Speaker 3: Well, it was certainly uh, it was we had already
Speaker 3: surpassed the burden of proof as far as probable calls.
Speaker 3: We had that we had probable cause to make the
Speaker 3: arrested with the circumstantial evidence. However, this physical evidence plus
Speaker 3: the physical evidence of the electrical tape, you know, they
Speaker 3: were very strong and very compelling. But we wanted to
Speaker 3: do everything that we could, and we were hoping for
Speaker 3: a DNA match, but John Bandura said that there was
Speaker 3: not enough of DNA in those hairs to extract to
Speaker 3: make a DNA comparison. So along the way, some of
Speaker 3: the things that we had read were about mitochondrial DNA analysis,
Speaker 3: and mitochondrial DNA analysis had been used to identify the
Speaker 3: bones of the Russians art and we had heard about
Speaker 3: that in the news, and so we started looking into
Speaker 3: mitochondrial DNA analysis, which was relatively new at the time,
Speaker 3: and mitochondrial DNA for all the listeners out there that
Speaker 3: might not know comes from the maternal side of your family.
Speaker 3: And ultimately the FBI Crime Lab had gone online doing
Speaker 3: the mitochondrial DNA analysis. Dan had and Joe Dizino had
Speaker 3: called me one day of his Good Crime Lab and
Speaker 3: very similar to talking with John Bandura, told me that
Speaker 3: he had a mitochondrial DNA match on the from the hair,
Speaker 3: and that's taken from the actual shaft of the hair
Speaker 3: as opposed to the root end of the hair, where
Speaker 3: traditional DNA analysis can be taken from. But what made
Speaker 3: that so compelling for us was the fact that anybody
Speaker 3: on the maternal side of the family could have shared
Speaker 3: that same DNA But because Victor Gunnerson had came from
Speaker 3: Sweden and none of his other family members on the
Speaker 3: paternal side of his family had ever been to the
Speaker 3: United States, it basically eliminated everybody in this country except
Speaker 3: for Victor Gunnarson. So that was just like a perfect
Speaker 3: match for us. So when we took that information to
Speaker 3: Tom Racher, we had already made the risks. We had
Speaker 3: already decided to arrest Underwood on what we had at
Speaker 3: that point. But the mitochondrial DNA analysis was you know,
Speaker 3: I'm passing on the cake.
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Speaker 7: What you can conclude from also from that forensic specialist,
Speaker 7: is that the hair was deposited there again. This is
Speaker 7: one of the more vivid scenes in terms of somebody
Speaker 7: speculat what happened to Victor Gunnerson. Tell us how, yes,
Speaker 7: you speculated that those hairs got there again?
Speaker 3: I would think absolutely divine intervention. But we talked about
Speaker 3: it many times, and Victor Gunnerson in as he was
Speaker 3: kidnapped and placed into the trunk of Underwood's car, it
Speaker 3: was very evident that he was alive. There were scratch
Speaker 3: marks inside the lid of the of the trunk of
Speaker 3: his car. We know he was from the tape that
Speaker 3: he was bound at least to some degree. There was
Speaker 3: what we believe a footprint or shoe print on the
Speaker 3: under side of the trunk lid, and we believed that
Speaker 3: he laid there on that trip from Salisbury to Ataga
Speaker 3: County in the trunk of that car in the freezing
Speaker 3: cold weather, struggling, trying to free himself, trying to to UH,
Speaker 3: trying to move around, trying to do anything, and in
Speaker 3: so doing deposited those and the UH just wallowing around
Speaker 3: and struggling into the fiber of the carpeted trunk man.
Speaker 3: And despite Underwood's efforts to remove any trace of physical evidence,
Speaker 3: because of course he had been a detective, he was
Speaker 3: a police officer, he thought that he could commit the
Speaker 3: perfect crime. He was unsuccessful because there is a greater
Speaker 3: judge that we all have to answer to, and he's
Speaker 3: in control of such things. And there was no combating
Speaker 3: that knocking in that you know, that spiritual warfare, and
Speaker 3: and we had the victor on our sides, and certainly
Speaker 3: he came through for it with it for us in
Speaker 3: that particular investigation.
Speaker 7: Now you have this evidence, and like I mentioned, do
Speaker 7: you have the opportunity to speak to Elsie Underwood and
Speaker 7: hear what he has to say about everything, Because he
Speaker 7: complains about treat me, complains about the SBI agents. Continually
Speaker 7: throughout this book, he talks to all kinds of people
Speaker 7: as former police officer friends, and he does have police
Speaker 7: officer friends, people in law enforcement. He complains about his
Speaker 7: treatment unfair, He complains about the treatment by Kay and
Speaker 7: all these other women that cheated on him and betrayed
Speaker 7: him and everything. But what does what do you get
Speaker 7: from him in these conversations that's either incriminating or valuable
Speaker 7: for you to understand what had happened to Catherine Miller
Speaker 7: and to Victor Gunnerson.
Speaker 3: Well, by the time that I actually sat down with
Speaker 3: just just me and him and a room in the jail,
Speaker 3: I felt like I already knew him as much as
Speaker 3: I could ever know anyone else, because we had talked
Speaker 3: to so many different people, and they came from all
Speaker 3: walks of blot, all economic classifications, all ages, all you
Speaker 3: know and everybody. Picture they painted of Elsie Underwood was
Speaker 3: the same. Even though some would defend him as they
Speaker 3: described his personality, it was obviously the same end. He
Speaker 3: was very troubled, He was at times depressed, that he
Speaker 3: was extremely anger and angry, and that anger came out
Speaker 3: in every communication that we had with with anybody who
Speaker 3: knew Underwood. And like I said, I had gone from
Speaker 3: the time that he was born all the way through
Speaker 3: his personal history, his professional history, so that by the
Speaker 3: time that he and I were sitting in that room talking,
Speaker 3: and in fact I told him, I told him, you know,
Speaker 3: I already know you can't tell me anything about your
Speaker 3: life that I don't already know. And we talked about
Speaker 3: that for a little bit, and I said, I also
Speaker 3: know that you killed Victor Gunnerson and you killed Catherine Miller.
Speaker 3: And he said the only thing that wouldn't even come
Speaker 3: close to being a confession. And at that time he
Speaker 3: just looked at me and he said, well, and so
Speaker 3: he would never admit to what he had done. He
Speaker 3: could he had never his entire life taken responsibility for
Speaker 3: anything he had done to Kay or to any of
Speaker 3: those other women. And Bobie accused them of many things.
Speaker 3: As far as I could tell, none of them had
Speaker 3: ever wronged him. They had never done anything other than
Speaker 3: be good to him. Kay Whedon especially, she exposed to
Speaker 3: concern for him and cared for his safety long after
Speaker 3: I would have I would have, you know, said you
Speaker 3: know sin, but she endured a lot. She's she's a
Speaker 3: very strong person, she's a survivor, and there's a lot
Speaker 3: that could be said about k Wheden. But when I
Speaker 3: talked to Underwood that day, we had we had had
Speaker 3: some communications before because when we arrested him, and so
Speaker 3: for if we had talked that day, when he wanted
Speaker 3: to talk to me, he basically wanted to glean for me,
Speaker 3: and I guess being young and female, perhaps he thought
Speaker 3: maybe that he would could manipulate on me and obtain information.
Speaker 3: But I don't think that conversation went the way he
Speaker 3: thought it would.
Speaker 7: You continue with your team to find people that again
Speaker 7: tighten this news, but also find just more incriminating circumstantial
Speaker 7: evidence that puts him not only at Victor Gunnerson's, but
Speaker 7: you have evidence of Catherine murders, of Katherine Miller's murder
Speaker 7: as well, in terms of again circumstantial motive, opportunity and
Speaker 7: supporting people that seemed to be As this investigation continues,
Speaker 7: even though he's in prison, he still has people that
Speaker 7: are on his side. And then what's very fascinating is
Speaker 7: when you get to speak to these people, when you're
Speaker 7: team gets to speak to the police officers who had
Speaker 7: run those tags, and then you get the police officer
Speaker 7: to make some calls to talk to Elsie Underwood. So
Speaker 7: people are very cooperative once they know the truth about
Speaker 7: Elsie Underwood. Tell us about how you finally come to
Speaker 7: know and discover about Rex Weller.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's Keller, Rex Keller, but pardon no prom so
Speaker 3: before we got to the tear evidence. Before we had
Speaker 3: that on the anniversary of Catherine Miller's murder. And this
Speaker 3: was Don Gale's idea, and he had lots of creative ideas,
Speaker 3: he and Terry and Steve all did, but John was
Speaker 3: particularly creative, and he suggested that we air on the
Speaker 3: local news TV channel a recording that had been made
Speaker 3: to Kay Whedon threatened, threatened her and threatening her life
Speaker 3: and her son. And so we knew it was not
Speaker 3: the voice of Underwood, but we suspected the Underwood had
Speaker 3: had someone else make the call. So we did play
Speaker 3: that recording on the local TV news channel, and lo
Speaker 3: and behold, a man called and said, I know that voice.
Speaker 3: I know exactly who it is, And it turned out
Speaker 3: to be the federal probation officer of Rix Keller and
Speaker 3: he said, I have him on probation, I see him
Speaker 3: talk with him regularly, and I know for a fact
Speaker 3: that that is his voice. And so at that point
Speaker 3: we did not contact Keller right away. We did some
Speaker 3: background investigation a whole other just basically another entire investigation
Speaker 3: just on Keller alone, and we talked with his associates
Speaker 3: as well, people women that he had been involved with
Speaker 3: and so forth, and found out their personalities were very similar.
Speaker 3: And we talked about this a lot in you know,
Speaker 3: criminal psychology classes, about how people have a way of
Speaker 3: finding each other that behave or have a similar personality.
Speaker 3: And so ultimately, by the time that we came to
Speaker 3: talk to him, he had gotten out of federal prison
Speaker 3: and was getting his life in order. And understand he
Speaker 3: has done that now and has a family and so forth.
Speaker 3: But he was very cooperative with with us at that point,
Speaker 3: and he was actually a great witness against Underwood in
Speaker 3: the trial.
Speaker 7: You spoke to also, Jason, and it's very interesting, uh,
Speaker 7: when Elsie Underwood tries to direct the focus of police
Speaker 7: and and also friends to suspect Jason tell us about
Speaker 7: this seemingly rudicrous notion that.
Speaker 3: He espouses the people it was, But the more time
Speaker 3: that went by and he wasn't arrested, I believe he
Speaker 3: became more arrogant and thought himself to be more intelligent.
Speaker 3: But what I believe he was doing at a time
Speaker 3: was setting Jason up. Number one, to make Jason look
Speaker 3: like perhaps he had committed the murders, but more likely
Speaker 3: it was that he intended to harm or even murder Jason.
Speaker 3: He was resentful of anyone who that cave was attached
Speaker 3: to emotionally. Her mother and certainly her son to fell
Speaker 3: into that same category. But I believe that he was
Speaker 3: setting Jason up. The things that he was doing, sending
Speaker 3: anonymous letters, making a threatening phone calls, was under the
Speaker 3: guise of fictitious claimed that that Jason was involved in
Speaker 3: drugs and that he had drug debts, and that these
Speaker 3: mysterious drug dealers were, you know, threatening his life and
Speaker 3: we're going to come and get him, so that if
Speaker 3: Jason did turn up dead, the police would believe that
Speaker 3: it was because of drug activity. But none of that
Speaker 3: was true. We found no evidence of that in the
Speaker 3: investigation at all. And Jason was very young at the time.
Speaker 3: He did not even have his driver's license and his
Speaker 3: whereabouts were always accounted for. Kay was, you know, a
Speaker 3: very responsible parents, and so we knew that there was
Speaker 3: no truth to those allegations. But Underwood, when he would
Speaker 3: talk with people and they would later share with us
Speaker 3: his comments, Underwood would always disparage Jason and talk about
Speaker 3: how spoiled he was, how much of the discipline and
Speaker 3: behavior price what he was and so forth, and how
Speaker 3: Kay and Catherine Miller bathing him and so forth he was.
Speaker 3: He was very jealous of Jason. So, you know, children
Speaker 3: are very intuitive, and Jason was aware of Underwood's feelings
Speaker 3: towards him, and he was concerned about Underwood's lack of
Speaker 3: genuine caring for his mother, for k and so he
Speaker 3: did not care for him very much, and understandably so.
Speaker 7: He also. Underwood also wanted to put the blame for
Speaker 7: the vandalism on Jason, owing some dealers of drug dealers money,
Speaker 7: So he also tried to to direct blame towards Jason
Speaker 7: and his friends for that spray painting and that ugly
Speaker 7: vandalism as you call it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he didn't do a good job of convincing any
Speaker 3: one of that, but he did try to blame Jason.
Speaker 7: You get to talk to a woman named Beth Richardson.
Speaker 7: That's a fascinating conversation. And it's always interesting the first
Speaker 7: approach to some of these witnesses and then you tell
Speaker 7: them some incredible evidence, incredible things that they didn't know
Speaker 7: about him, and then the thing turns. So tell us
Speaker 7: about the conversation with richards and what she imparts to you.
Speaker 3: Well, while we were investigating, and I mentioned that we
Speaker 3: had the pen register and the trap and trace, we
Speaker 3: could see that he was having a number of phone calls,
Speaker 3: lengthy phone calls with someone in particular, and that turned
Speaker 3: out to be Meneth, and her phone number lent us
Speaker 3: to her. She was in the initial stages of a
Speaker 3: dating relationship with Underwood, I think, and her at a
Speaker 3: shagged dancing club, and so she still she at that point,
Speaker 3: in her defense, had not gotten a good taste of
Speaker 3: Underwood's personality or you know, his crazy jealousy, and so
Speaker 3: Don and another agent had gone initially and knocked on
Speaker 3: her door and approached her, and she was very ad
Speaker 3: a month to them that she was not going to
Speaker 3: talk to them, that she already knew all about them
Speaker 3: and how they were trying to frame Underwood. Because he
Speaker 3: had told her all about it. But you know, in
Speaker 3: her defense, all she had ever heard was his side
Speaker 3: of the story. And so basically Don and the other
Speaker 3: agent got the door slammed in their face. But Don
Speaker 3: had left his card in a number with Beth and said,
Speaker 3: you know, if you change your mind and you want
Speaker 3: to talk or whatever, you know, here's my number. Given
Speaker 3: a call, And Don didn't think that she was going
Speaker 3: to call because she was so mad when they got there,
Speaker 3: and I told Don, I said, shen't call. She's gonna
Speaker 3: call you back, and sure enough she did, and she said,
Speaker 3: I've been talking to my parents and maybe that's looking
Speaker 3: back at things. Maybe we'll just hear what you have
Speaker 3: to say, you know, just to you know, get the
Speaker 3: other side of the story. So at that point we
Speaker 3: decided it was a good idea maybe for me to
Speaker 3: go with Don and talk with her. So so Don
Speaker 3: and I went and met with her and her family
Speaker 3: and they just they had no idea, you know what,
Speaker 3: who else he was really or what he had been
Speaker 3: involved in. And at that point Elsie found out that
Speaker 3: we had talked with her. I guess because she had
Speaker 3: attempted to end the relationship at that point, and he
Speaker 3: was furious. I mean, he immediately paved and instead of
Speaker 3: calling him back immediately, we'd go back to the office
Speaker 3: and set up the recorder and so forth. And then
Speaker 3: Don called and we just listened to him rant And
Speaker 3: that conversation verbatim is in the book, and it's not
Speaker 3: a nice conversation, but it's typical Elsie and Don. He
Speaker 3: was he was calm all of the time, no matter
Speaker 3: what is going on, just sat there and nodding his
Speaker 3: head and you know, and listening to him and trying
Speaker 3: to respond. But Elsie won't. He didn't hear anything that
Speaker 3: Don has to say. And by the way, every conversation
Speaker 3: that's in the book, you know those everything that's been
Speaker 3: recorded that those are actual conversations. You know, that's not
Speaker 3: just something that you know, I'm illustrating. But so some
Speaker 3: of it is a little hard to read because some
Speaker 3: of it is you know, really there's a lot of
Speaker 3: anger there and not so much nice talk at times,
Speaker 3: but that is you know that the truth is that
Speaker 3: it is what it is. But that's Eventually I realized
Speaker 3: what was going on, and then a horrible thing happened
Speaker 3: that also turned out to be just a huge blessing
Speaker 3: because that's what the smoker. And the first thing she did,
Speaker 3: which Elsie knew very well, was when she would come
Speaker 3: home with the evening and walk into her apartment, she
Speaker 3: would light a cigarette up as she came in the door.
Speaker 3: But after she started pulling away from Elsie and had
Speaker 3: was learning what actually had happened from us, one day
Speaker 3: she comes home and her apartment is full of gas
Speaker 3: from her kitchen stove, from her gas and for whatever reason,
Speaker 3: again we know it's divine intervention that that's the one
Speaker 3: day she did not light up a cigarette when she
Speaker 3: walked into her house, or else Beth would not be
Speaker 3: here with us today. And we have no way of
Speaker 3: knowing or actually we have no way of proving that
Speaker 3: Elsie had anything to do with that. But you know,
Speaker 3: we're all fairly confident that he meant to kill her
Speaker 3: in that incident.
Speaker 7: Certainly, now you find the girlfriend of Rex Teller, Sherry Martin,
Speaker 7: Scher Martin, what does she have to say?
Speaker 3: Wow? Talking to her was it was like talking with
Speaker 3: all these women from Elsie's past all over again. One
Speaker 3: of the things that we did, one of the that
Speaker 3: in this investigation, that that took four years. We went
Speaker 3: to the federal prison and we listened to hours of
Speaker 3: recorded conversation between Taylor and other people, but the most
Speaker 3: the bulk of the conversations were between him and his girlfriend,
Speaker 3: and his degree of suspicion and jealousy and control was well, frankly,
Speaker 3: it was nauseating and it's just unbelievable. So by the
Speaker 3: time we talked to her, we already knew all of that,
Speaker 3: We knew how we talked to her, We knew what
Speaker 3: the how the relationship was going, and it was totally dysfunctional.
Speaker 3: And she was able to share since the cific incident
Speaker 3: with us, that she had already reported to the police
Speaker 3: of domestic violence of him assaulting her and her disabled
Speaker 3: and handicapped son, and it would just it was heartbreaking
Speaker 3: and hear heart ranching. But he was also extremely jealous and.
Speaker 7: Controlling, and she, again, just like these other women, cooperated
Speaker 7: once she knew what this investigation was and realized too
Speaker 7: that it would be a mistake to be involved with
Speaker 7: these people. And they all said to you, I don't
Speaker 7: want to testify. It didn't they every.
Speaker 3: Single one of them, and one lady in particular, had
Speaker 3: she came outside her family was inside and she told us,
Speaker 3: she said, my husband does not know that I was
Speaker 3: married for a short time to Underwood. Please don't tell him.
Speaker 3: Please don't get me involved in this case. I'll tell
Speaker 3: you what you want to know, but please just uh,
Speaker 3: you know, leave me out of this. And it was
Speaker 3: very typical. Now, after he was in custody and he
Speaker 3: was in jail, they were able to breathe a little easier,
Speaker 3: and the more time passed and the more they got
Speaker 3: to know and trust us, they did come forward and
Speaker 3: were prepared to testify. Unfortunately, the judge uh sided with
Speaker 3: the motion of the defense who claimed that their relationships
Speaker 3: were with LC were not relevant to the to the
Speaker 3: homicide that was being prosecuted, and so the judge did
Speaker 3: not allow their testimony. But they but they were there,
Speaker 3: and they they were very brave and they had prepared
Speaker 3: themselves and they were going to testify against them. But
Speaker 3: that in the end they did not have to.
Speaker 7: You talked about what was allowed than what wasn't, and
Speaker 7: so that was unfortunate. You didn't get that previous testimony
Speaker 7: from those women. But the judge did allow Rusher to
Speaker 7: introduce the the Katherine Miller murder and all of the
Speaker 7: related evidence, despite that he had not been charged for
Speaker 7: that offense. Thus, that is a major victory for the prosecution,
Speaker 7: isn't it?
Speaker 3: It was the four and four The evidence was was uh.
Speaker 3: I think that was very critical. All of the incidents,
Speaker 3: Victor's disappearance. Well, as it turns out, we believe that
Speaker 3: Victor was murdered about four days before Catherine Miller, and
Speaker 3: all of the incidents, everything that was occurring were so intertwined.
Speaker 3: It would have been very difficult to separate all of
Speaker 3: the evidence showing that he had murdered Katherin Miller from
Speaker 3: the from the Victor Gunnerson evidence. It's not impossible, and
Speaker 3: so we were very glad we did not have to
Speaker 3: try and take take all of that information apart.
Speaker 7: This was a capital so he was assigned to attorneys.
Speaker 7: One was experienced capital case attorney. You talk about the
Speaker 7: trial opening June twenty seventh, nineteen ninety seven, after three
Speaker 7: and a half years of work. Basically, the defense its
Speaker 7: contention was that L. C. Underwood was too disabled and
Speaker 7: he certainly couldn't do all the stuff involved in that murder. Essentially,
Speaker 7: that's what they had said as a defense. Tell Us
Speaker 7: what the prosecution laid out as the motive and the
Speaker 7: reason for this murder, well the.
Speaker 3: Motives, and by the time all the witnesses got to
Speaker 3: testifying that the motives were very obvious. He wanted to
Speaker 3: oscoleate k from anybody that was advising her to stay
Speaker 3: away from him, or that anybody that she could turn
Speaker 3: to for emotional support, such as her mother, and certainly
Speaker 3: any their men that she became involved with, which was
Speaker 3: obviously Victor Gunnerson.
Speaker 2: But the.
Speaker 3: Motive, as far as what the prosecutors introduced, was the
Speaker 3: same old story we hear very frequently in society, the insecurity,
Speaker 3: the pathological jealousy, and the lying and the violence and
Speaker 3: domestic violence. And that's one reason that I wanted to
Speaker 3: get the book published, because people need to understand that
Speaker 3: there are people out there who have these issues and
Speaker 3: they should not be ignoring the red flag when they instinctively,
Speaker 3: you know, when something comes up in a relationship that
Speaker 3: they should pay more attention to instead of just ignoring
Speaker 3: it sweeping it under the rug, they really should look
Speaker 3: into that. And that's something that Kay Weedon wants to do.
Speaker 3: She wants to get to talk with not just women,
Speaker 3: but other people who are victims by people who are
Speaker 3: capable of doing the things that Elsie Underwood has done.
Speaker 7: Yes, you also have something very interesting go on in
Speaker 7: the trial. You have these competent and appointed attorneys, but
Speaker 7: there is talk of a cassette tape. Tell us about
Speaker 7: this cassette tape controversy.
Speaker 3: Well, as you know, we did not. In the book,
Speaker 3: we did not, and to the investigation, we were not
Speaker 3: able to find the guns which we believe were the
Speaker 3: murder weapons in both Captain Miller and Victor Gunnerson chases.
Speaker 3: But Underwood had not offered us a reasonable explanation from
Speaker 3: where the guns for where the guns were. He knew
Speaker 3: that we knew that he had them, and then all
Speaker 3: of a sudden he did not have them, that he
Speaker 3: would not come in or cooperate or offer us any
Speaker 3: kind of reasonable explanation as to where they were other
Speaker 3: than had given him to his what he called his
Speaker 3: brothers or his step brothers in Ohio, and they were
Speaker 3: actually no relation to him, but he had uh he
Speaker 3: had gotten close to this couple at the orphanage. And
Speaker 3: so what cassette, the cassette that was being referred to
Speaker 3: was something that Keller told us about that he and
Speaker 3: Elsie Underwood had created, which was a recorded conversation in
Speaker 3: which Keller was pretending to be one of those so
Speaker 3: called brothers acknowledging receipt of the guns from Underwood to
Speaker 3: offer an explanation as to what happened to them. And
Speaker 3: we never got our hands on that tape. We knew
Speaker 3: of its existence, and at one point we knew that
Speaker 3: Underwood's attorneys, most likely the attorneys he had hired in Fastbury,
Speaker 3: not the ones appointed in the capital murder case, had
Speaker 3: that tape, but the joy the judge ordered that the
Speaker 3: defense had it, they were to produce it, and so
Speaker 3: in the middle of the murder trial it stops. Then
Speaker 3: his attorneys are basically having to answer to the judge
Speaker 3: and a hearing as to back to sept tape, because
Speaker 3: had they had we been able to produce that and
Speaker 3: and they had it, then they would have been withholding,
Speaker 3: you know, evidence in a murder trial and would have
Speaker 3: been in a heap of trouble. But as it turns out,
Speaker 3: they came in with their own attorney who told the
Speaker 3: judge that that they were not commenting on whether that
Speaker 3: tape existed, but that it was not at that time
Speaker 3: in their possession and they could not produce it, and
Speaker 3: so the judge kind of let it go.
Speaker 7: At that point, I kind of summarized what happened in
Speaker 7: the trial in terms of the defense thinking that they
Speaker 7: didn't really need to provide evidence, and as common filed
Speaker 7: the motion to dismiss, and of course the judges dismissed that,
Speaker 7: but they just said basically that you know that he
Speaker 7: was too disabled to be able to do this, and
Speaker 7: so the prosecution had the onus basically to come out
Speaker 7: and explain their entire case to a jury. Now, this
Speaker 7: being a capital case is mitigating and aggravating circumstances towards that, right.
Speaker 7: What happens at this in regards to that with the
Speaker 7: jury with the death penalty, what happens.
Speaker 3: It was capital case, and the prosecutors, Tom Bracher and
Speaker 3: his assistant Jerry Wilson, both extremely capable and did a
Speaker 3: great job. They made very compelling arguments, and the jury
Speaker 3: did come back with eleven to one for the death penalty.
Speaker 3: Only one juror just cannot commit and as it turns out,
Speaker 3: how to say, member in another criminal case that caused
Speaker 3: him to be sympathetic towards the defendant, information that we
Speaker 3: were not aware of during jury's selection, and otherwise he
Speaker 3: would have we've gotten the death penalty, but that he
Speaker 3: did not because it was not unanimous and it was
Speaker 3: eleven to one. Then he was sentenced to wife imprisonment
Speaker 3: for the murder of Victor Gunnarson's first degree murder and
Speaker 3: an additional forty years for first degree kidnapping, hence the
Speaker 3: name of the book, first degree rage.
Speaker 7: And this is a consecutive sentencing, so not any of
Speaker 7: this doesn't count concurrent sentencing. This is consecutive sentencing.
Speaker 3: That's correct, It was consecutive.
Speaker 7: You talked about again, a dramatic part of the trial
Speaker 7: to a great degree is Kay Whedon. Yes, of course,
Speaker 7: realizing now what a fool she was, beyond naivety would think,
Speaker 7: because of course we have the benefit of the hindsight,
Speaker 7: so we know we're almost yelling at Kay.
Speaker 3: What are you doing? What do you?
Speaker 6: Don't do this?
Speaker 7: Don't do that. It's incredible. But how did she fare
Speaker 7: at the trial and what did you say to her afterwards?
Speaker 3: I've talked with k many times before and after the trial,
Speaker 3: and she is a friend of mine because you know,
Speaker 3: I felt like I went through all of that with her,
Speaker 3: and you know, she felt like, you know, I'm someone
Speaker 3: who understood because I knew what she had gone through
Speaker 3: that Kay Whedon has suffered a lot, and it is
Speaker 3: easy to criticize her judgment, but she's a very compassionate person.
Speaker 3: And when Osie Underwood would do things like fake a
Speaker 3: suicide attempt and call her up and fire the gun
Speaker 3: off in the phone, you know, she would go and
Speaker 3: check on him, and she would make sure that police
Speaker 3: were there and that he was okay. She went in
Speaker 3: above and beyond, not necessarily because she was naive, but
Speaker 3: because she's a compassionate and caring person, and she wanted
Speaker 3: to assure his safety, even though she didn't want to
Speaker 3: be in a relationship with him. You know, she didn't
Speaker 3: want anything to happen to him. And at this point,
Speaker 3: no one was dead. Victor Gunnarson had not been kidnapped
Speaker 3: and murdered, and her mother was still alive and well
Speaker 3: and just living, you know, right down the street. So
Speaker 3: you know, we don't think of other people in terms
Speaker 3: of they're apt to commit the very worst, And she
Speaker 3: had no way of knowing what how much people was
Speaker 3: in Elsie's heart, but she not only suffered those kind
Speaker 3: of things from him, but there were many times when,
Speaker 3: for instance, one parent of one of Jason's friends asked
Speaker 3: them not to let Jason come over there anymore because
Speaker 3: things were happening decay. They didn't know if she was
Speaker 3: in danger, but they didn't want Jason over there, putting
Speaker 3: their family and their son in danger. And so Kay
Speaker 3: is just like astounded at, you know, being ostracized by
Speaker 3: some of her friends. And so there's a lot more
Speaker 3: things going on, and a lot more things she endured
Speaker 3: other than just at the hand of LC. She's being terrorized.
Speaker 3: She's she doesn't believe that her son is involved in drugs,
Speaker 3: but somebody is targeting them for some reason. She can't
Speaker 3: imagine that is LC. And in particular, Elsie was at
Speaker 3: her house with her when she would get a phone
Speaker 3: call or to he had orchestrated that, but she wasn't
Speaker 3: aware of that. So she's thinking there's no way that
Speaker 3: he could have done that. And in many cases like this,
Speaker 3: once the victim falls under the spell of these kinds
Speaker 3: of people, they their vision is limited as far as
Speaker 3: being able to see or predict, you know, what they
Speaker 3: might do, and so I'm a little bit of kay
Speaker 3: and other women like that. You know, it's just like
Speaker 3: a domestic violence situation. Why don't they just leave? Why
Speaker 3: don't they just leave? But it's like one lady told me,
Speaker 3: after being in a marriage of domestic violence for twenty
Speaker 3: five years, she said, after you get told every day
Speaker 3: of your life for twenty five years that you're stupid
Speaker 3: and helpless, after a while you start believing it. And so,
Speaker 3: you know, I hate that victims find themselves in those
Speaker 3: situations there, but usually these people are, you know, pretty
Speaker 3: smooth operators. They're very convincing at first, and then good
Speaker 3: people just want to believe the best about other people.
Speaker 3: And that's not always a good assumption to make. That's
Speaker 3: not always a good judgment to exercise.
Speaker 7: And the thing is too, what he used is again
Speaker 7: a little bit different than some psychopathic individuals' personalities would
Speaker 7: use on their their loved ones or people that they
Speaker 7: claimed love. But he started off with a really good,
Speaker 7: sob story of his upbringing, and so he used that
Speaker 7: his whole life to get that kind of sympathy from people,
Speaker 7: and he used it constantly to plead and beg and say,
Speaker 7: look at this is just a product. He said that
Speaker 7: with Kay over and over again, that this was a
Speaker 7: product of his upbringing and he was trying to work
Speaker 7: on and he was getting medication, and he used every
Speaker 7: lie he could to say mother had cancer. He was
Speaker 7: spending all his money on her cancer. So he made
Speaker 7: himself to be a martyr. But as you write in
Speaker 7: the book, most of these people just couldn't stand it
Speaker 7: after a while. He just drove people away with his
Speaker 7: crying and always his persecution complex that this guy had throughout.
Speaker 7: But it is fascinating to see that that k should
Speaker 7: have been able to see some things that as we're
Speaker 7: reading this book book, like I say, it's very very
Speaker 7: obvious that he has something to do with her mother's
Speaker 7: murder and then with the disappearance of this person she
Speaker 7: just started a relationship with. However, we get the benefit
Speaker 7: of that story. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 7: Paula for coming on and talking about first degree rage,
Speaker 7: the two stories having. This is a Wild Blue Press release,
Speaker 7: so this book can be found everywhere on Amazon and
Speaker 7: Barnes and Noble and everywhere else. So thank you very
Speaker 7: much for this, and I hope to speak to you
Speaker 7: again soon
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, thank you, thank you, good night,
Speaker 3: good night.