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Speaker 1: S S.

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Speaker 2: S S.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. There have there have, there have, there have Yeah.

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Speaker 5: The career.

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Speaker 2: Success success success success success success.

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Speaker 6: Ssss success ss ss.

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Speaker 7: S S S S S S S S S S

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S S S S.

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Speaker 3: S s s s S s s S.

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Speaker 7: Second second.

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Speaker 8: Second second, second second.

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Speaker 9: We've learned so much.

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Speaker 10: If you've been on the Jaysonnalysis, right, A lot of

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you guys are new, I understand, that's cool. Glad to

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have you here, but some of you have been with

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me for the long haul. In fact, there are some

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who've been with Jays Analysis for ten years, reading it

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back in the day, and we've come a long way,

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come a long way. All right, Welcome, thank you, glad

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to see you all here. I got a room of

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almost two hundred nerds. I'm sure the nerds will file

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in then we can get up to about three hundred.

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Speaker 1: Den I will see.

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Speaker 9: You, boy, Jay in the house. You boy can't see me.

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Speaker 11: Thanks.

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Speaker 8: Boots shoot Shots, boots, Shop boots, shoots and Storm boots, boots,

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Stop boots, Stier sun was s.

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Speaker 9: All right, welcome and if you can try to avoid

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those clicking in the background, David, Yeah, all right, welcome

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you are here in another episode of Jay's analysis. Today

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we have our good friend, our brother David the real

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medwife back. David has delved deeply into the Chalcedonian issue,

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the issues of Pope Saint Leo and the so called

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Oriental Orthodox. We're going to look at that today. We're

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going to get into the topic of how the notion

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of hypostasis in nature is part of the confusion. How

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there's a development, you could say, in the understanding of

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those terms. We're not saying there's a development in doctrine,

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but there is a development in which terms will become

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precise in our theology over time. And David has done

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a lot of research into the actual writings of those

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in the opposing camps. And now this is relevant because

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there's a lot of a false acumenism in our day

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which assumes that, oh, well, all these positions are actually

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just the same. We're also in the same stuff, so

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there's no reason to fight anymore. And anybody who debates

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or fights over these issues is unloving and mean and

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has spiritual problems, which would mean that everybody at Chalcedon

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was unloving and mean and had spiritual problems, because of

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course they were debating these issues, and then for the

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next two hundred years, in the next two councils, it's

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actually the issues of Christology that get hashed out and debated,

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particularly the topics will be discussing today. We're going to

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cover a lot of those formative central texts and David

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has done what three part series. I think I made

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it through at least half or.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great jay this this stream. Some people might

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remember that we did the stream on Orientals as well,

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it was Florence as well. But what's different, what's going

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to be different about this stream is we're going to

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be diving more in dept. That stream was kind of

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dealing with the common misconceptions. This stream is going to

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be explaining pretty much the in depth Christology of Severus

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of Antioch, Philuxinus of Madbug, and other Oriental characters. And again,

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the reason why I even started doing this is it

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didn't sit right with me when I heard so many

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people say, oh, you know, for for sixteenth centuries, for

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like all this time we were actually believing in the

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believing in the same exact belief, but we just had

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terminological problems. And I saw a lot of different argumentations

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from copts, which made me say, Okay, I'm going to

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look into this. I'm going to research and see what

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both sides say, and the theology is really not the same.

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And when I made the video series, which by the way,

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if you want to watch like you can watch in

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any order, like if you want to start with part three,

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if you want to start with geophysicism in the photos,

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that's fine. You don't have to like watch it chronologically.

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When I started to upload the videos, one interesting thing

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that happened is that various different coptic priests have said

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that I don't really understand these issues. They said this

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on face, I don't really understand these issues, but none

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of them really explained how I don't understand these issues.

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And one of them, at least when they were pressed,

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they start to explain a little bit, but they showed

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that they didn't. They had no idea what they were

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talking about. So it really just seemed like, oh, he

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doesn't has no idea. He thinks we're different, but we're not.

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And just and this was back then, I only uploaded

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like the introductory parts. So we're going to be talking about.

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Speaker 9: Why are they always arguing? Why are they always arguing

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against us, by the way, if what we say is

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not different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. A lot of them like the way they act.

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A lot of them act like we had many people

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that were part the Oriental Communion and we asked them

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who they bishop were in the discord server and none

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of them really they didn't really want to say it.

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So there's a there's a sentiment, especially between a laity

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that like, oh, you know, we really are the same,

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and the clergy are to they don't care enough to

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actually talk about this. Farrington Peter Finks and he says

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that he studied this for thirty years, and he says

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that we're not different, but we don't accept Alkadon because

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they don't say the magic words exactly. So the stuff

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that we're going to be talking about is going to

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be dealing with the history. We're going to be going

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back to even fourteeny eight. I'm planning on giving like

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a short summary of what happened, because this is all

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going to be very relevant for people to understand what's

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going on. As we probably all know, they have a

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character calledness Stories In four twenty eight it becomes Patriarch

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of Constantinople. He says, stupid stuff like Mary is not

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the Mother of God and all that stuff. Saint Curle

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starts reading The Fathers, and one interesting thing to note

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while he's reading the Fathers is that he comes across

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and this is important to note because this explains why

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the term mea physics even came into play. Now, of course,

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if you watch the first part, we say that we

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don't do the word concept fallacy. The concept behind those

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words is what matters. So Saint Curle reads certain atonation

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letters when in reality they were written by a pollinarius.

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And there are various different people that make note of this.

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Timothy in his Ecclesiastical History, who's an Apollinarian disciple, says

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that the term mea physicis was made by a pollinarius

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in order to combat the innovation and heresies of the

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Cappadocian fathers and of Saint Antonatius and all these different

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people who in their eyes are preaching two natures. So

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I think this is kind of important to note. But

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he came across this term when he was researching about

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the Fathers, and he thought it was generally from Saint Antinasius.

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Now today we know that it's not from Saint Antonatius.

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It's a pollinarian forgeries, but it's important to note because

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this is really how the term comes to play. Then

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first council of emphasis happens. There's an historic council that's

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a split between Antwerk and Alexandri. This is very important

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because two years later, in four twenty three, there's a

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formula of reunion. There's a there's a reunion between Alexander

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and Antioch, two patriarchates that have different christologies. And one

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interesting thing and this is in letter turned nine and

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Saint Carrol that's going to be very relevant when we're

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talking about Pope Saint Leo is that he says that

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we know the theologians make some things of the evangelical

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and epostolic teaching about the Lord commonists pertaining to the

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one person and other things they divide as the two

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natures and attribute the word he wants to God on

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account of the divinity of Christ and the lovely ones

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on account of his humanity. So this is very relevant

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because Pope Saint Louis is the exact same thing in

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his tomb, but this is not acceptable for him, and

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we're going to get into how they defend this from

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Saint Carol, and then Saint Kurle argues against After the reunion,

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he argues against Theodore of Mopsuestia and the fifth secure

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Medical Council, will we condemn him as a heretic and

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he writes on the unity of Christ. He reposes, and

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then other stuff happens, so that there's a council in

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four forty eight under the presidency of Saint Flavian, he

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deposed Utichius, and then a year later Dioscurus says, oh, no,

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I have to save him because he doesn't teach. Oh

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he was rejected out of a because of Astorianizing patriarchs Ephesis.

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The second council happens. Saint Flavian, EBAs Theodore Dominus two

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of Antioch are all deposed. A year lady Saint louis excommunicated,

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so Dioscurus in one fell swoop just this excommunicating gets

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rid of three major patriarchs and other patriarchs as well.

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And so this is a big deal, right, This is

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a huge issue that's going on, and this context is

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important when we're talking about the Council of Kalkadon. And

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in four fifty one, the Council of Kalkadon happens and begins.

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And on the topic, by the way, j on the

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topic of all we believe in the same thing. If

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you look at the Troparia, if you look at the

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Tropario of Severus from the Coptic liturgy. What's really funny

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is that they refer to us as heretics. They refer

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to Calkeedonias as heretics. But now today, sixteenth centuries later,

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suddenly we believe the same thing, even though in their

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liturgy they refer to Calcadonius as heretics. As you think,

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this is like absolutely silly. We believe in the same thing,

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but apparently we are heretics. How how exactly? But so

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what are the oriental problem in the Council of Caltada.

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And if you watch the part two of my video

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series you will I deal with that with I deal

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with that argument extensively. So on one problem they have

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is that all you you first said that Christ is

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out of two natures, and then you insert into nature's right.

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And that's one of the arguments they use to say

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that there's a direction going to the way of news

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stories because he said the same thing. So this is

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an example of word concept fallacy. In here Nestorius used

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into natures. Therefore we cannot say into natures. And as

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a matter of fact, Severus I believe Saint Justinian uh

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cited Severus in saying this. Saint Justinian says that he

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makes he makes a point that Severus argues that all

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you know, when when the Father spoke of two natures,

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that was fine, but then came Nestorius, and now it's

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not fine. So Necessarius kind of poisoned the term in

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there eyes. And this is a great example of just

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the word consp fallacy, genetic fallacy. But the main problem

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with the tom of Leo, there's two problems. The one

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problem is that Pope Saint Leo talks about forms operating

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and seemingly independently in their eyes right, so he speaks

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of two forms of Christ, and they think that those

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two forms of Christ means two persons. The problem with

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that is because Pope Saint Leo has a vested understanding

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of christology. Forms mean essence, it doesn't mean hypostasis, it

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doesn't mean.

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Speaker 9: Any And listen, you see this in Augustine. Augustine does

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the same thing in his sections in the City of God,

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where he cites the Platonists, he cites God as the

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first form, which actually is a mistake in Orthodox theology

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of Augustine theology is actually incorrect here, but it shows

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it backs up what you're saying, because Augustine is using

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form in the sense of essence or nature. And there's

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a whole chapter in Brad shows the book on that exactly.

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Speaker 1: And and if you want to add, I use this

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quote in Michalkadan video Saint Gregor of Nissa. He says,

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the human nature does not give new life to Laster,

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so that itself. If Saint Leo said this, this will

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be deemed as heretical. But this is Saint Gregrif Nissa

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against Eunomius that says this. And then there's another quote

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from Pope Saint Leu in his tone where they argue, oh,

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you know, he asks which nature was on the cross? Well, actually,

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Saint Gregri Nissa again and against Eunomius says asks which

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form is beaten in the passion and which is glorified

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from eternity. So he's talking about the human form, meaning

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the human essence was beaten in the passion, which is

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exactly the same thing that Pope, Saint Leo says, So

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again these are arguments that Orientals use, but the responses

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are fairly simple. So again I'm keeping it simple. If

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you want the full explanation, you can look at part

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two again. So about about letter thirty nine of Saint

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Crole Severus and Phililitis. This is text four phil Alitis.

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So if you have this is from the Pauline Allen

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book on Severus of Antioch. Texts four Severus essentially says,

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in his defense of Saint Curle talking about dividing quote

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unquote divide in Christ's actions and attributing the divine wants

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the divinity, he says that he actually didn't mean it.

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I'm not kidding. He says, oh, he didn't mean it.

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He just made them anathematized their positions, and then he said, oh,

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he just let them praddle on like stupid kids. And

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he didn't actually mean it when he said that, which

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is again an example of rationalization in our view, and

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it has really bad implications on Saint Krole's view. I mean,

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if Saint kil didn't really mean what he said, doesn't

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that mean that he's fine with nestorianizing ideas. Will't that

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imply that he will be fine in Kalkadon because he

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didn't mean what he said. Again, this has bad implications

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for him. Another big issue they have is that kal

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Kadon accepted EBAs and Theodorit, which are two historian sympathizers. Now,

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in terms of theodor It, if you actually read his

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book Eeronistas, which was composed in four forty seven, there

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are numerous things that he says in Aeronistas, which is

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actually the things that Saint kill says. I'm not going

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to go over them, but you could. But again, I'll

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deal with those things and with Ibas. He has a

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bad letter about how he doesn't like Saint Kyle, but

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he doesn't really speak of theology. Not to mention, his

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acceptance was based on a reversal of the Council of

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Ephesus too, so it was based on reversing the effects

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of the Second Ficiene Council, which kal Kadan was based on.

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And not to mention again, his letter where he was

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condemning Saint Kilt was written for thirty three, back when

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he was a priest, not when he was a bishop,

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back when Saint Kyle himself was alive and there's another

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example of word concept faucy Jay. They will say a

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Hisstorius accepted the Kalakdonian Council. He said, oh, I believe

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in the same thing, which is funny. I mentioned this

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in the video. Arius does the same thing. It's the

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Council of Nicea. Ten years later, yes, he says, I

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accept the Council of Nicea.

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Speaker 9: So yeah, that was a great point that you made.

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I mean, just because someone claims to accept something, that

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doesn't mean that the council is therefore erroneous. I mean,

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that's a ridiculous argument. And by the way, Basil in

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his writings is constantly having to deal with the word

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concept fallacy. We deal with it constantly as well, with

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idiots like Jonathan Hill, who will say that because the

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term natural theology is used in Saint Maximus, therefore he

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means natural theology in the tonistic sense, which is ridiculous.

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And Bradshaw has entire sections refuting that notion. Again, Father

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Stanieloy has entire sections refuting the notion that we believe

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in in the tonistic version of natural theology. So again,

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word concept fallas he is at the root. It's a

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central problem here in this debate with the Nonchalcedonians because

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they're married, on the one hand to the phraseology of

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Saint Cyril, when Saint Cyril was himself not married to

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one definitional sense of this terminology. This is the problem

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with all of these heretics and all these people who

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don't have any ability to understand nuance is that they

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try to squish everything into a one dimensional notion. And

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once they do that, in their minds, they think they've

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got some kind of key to refuting everyone else, but

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it just actually makes them look ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: Not to mention, it's the same Jonathan Hill that sided

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it to coptics.

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Speaker 9: Right, Yeah, he'll sign with coptics. He'll find anybody who's

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in a disagreement with us to try to find common cause,

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because he's psychotic by the way, he's bipolar and he's

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on meds.

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Speaker 1: And not to mention, to prove that Sanco wasn't married

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to one phraseology, there's letter fifty three. There's his statement

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on Gleffire on the Pentitiic. But letter fifty three is

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very insightful because he says Christ is in and out

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of two natures. So he says exactly what Pope Saint

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Agatos says two centuries later, who also says that Christ

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is in and out of two natures, which is affirming

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the both formulas. Right, both formulas at Saint curl Usus.

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So we're actually not the devices, we're actually accepting the

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correct interpretation of both formulas. Really, the main debate is

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rejection of the Diophysite formula, which is by the way, patristic.

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And this is again as I proved Timothy the student

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of Apollinarias himself amidst this and another objection I've seen,

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and this is this is a silly objection. The word

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hypostatic union was not used in the Council of calcadan

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Therefore Calcadonis don't believe in hypostatic union. I mean, can

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you really believe this?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, this is so many stupid arguments. I mean, it's

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like you had some really good comebacks on this point

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in your videos. By the way, I think that was

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solid argumentation. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And it also shows right like the way people

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defending Kalkadon, it's not like they didn't appeal to a

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certain patriarch. They defended it's on the grounds of its theology,

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which is very important now I want to talk about.

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This is kind of like the basic issues in the

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Coptic Church. I've gone when I'm talking about the responses.

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I didn't make up these responses, like I heard these

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responses from other Coptic and Oriental Christians. So one response

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I've heard is about unleavened bread, and I think you

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can explain this as well. So the Armenian Church uses

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unleavened bread. The response I got, Jay is that, Oh,

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it's merely a jurisdictional preference. It's not that big of

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a deal. Can you explain to me, Jay, why that's

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why it's not merely a jurisdictional preference, Why it's such

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a big deal.

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Speaker 9: Well, the ancient Canon's actually forbid doing that, and it

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would be a movement back to judaizing. It would be

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a movement back to the Old Testament conceptions. That's the

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reasoning why in the early Canons it's not that practice

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is forbidden. So, and this is exactly why Armenians would

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do things like sacrifice the chicken at the door of

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the the church on whatever ceremony, because this is a

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They're they're tempted with judaizing it. That's why.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's another objection I heard the cousin marriages and

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the Egyptian Church. The argument I heard was it's merely cultural,

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so it's okay. But I heard a good response from

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my friend Nick who said marriage is theological right. You

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can't separate marriage and just make cultural marriage and theology like,

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you can't separate these two. These are two intertwined things.

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So it wasn't really enough. But by the way, for

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the audience, I mean, these aren't arguments that are like,

353
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they won't really one hundred percent direly prough all this

354
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church is wrong. It just showcases certain problems. We'll get

355
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to the real issues really soon. And it is the

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circumcision in the Coptic Church. As a matter of fact,

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if you look at Florence Bull of the Union with

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the Cops, this is their motivation for seeing that those

359
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that are circumcised are damned because people in the Coptic

360
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Church this circumcision. And as a response, the Roman Catholic

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Church said, oh, you know, if you do a circumcision,

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you're damned. Bull of the Union with Cops, No.

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Speaker 9: I mean this was already condemned, and things like Trollo

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and the Canons of Trollo. I mean this is already

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was already condemned by us as well, exactly. I mean,

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it's just ridiculous. How are you gonna go back to

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these practices which the New Testament obviously forbids, the Ancient

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Church forbids I mean obviously. And by the way, they

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are a Chumenists. This is another point that is often

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forgotten is that they will team up with Roman Catholics

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against Orthodox. They will team up they all the time. Yeah,

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so there, and they don't actually agree amongst themselves, these

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oriental communions, but they'll team up against Us with people

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who are far worse, like Roman Catholics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I see this generally. I've seen multiple apologists just refusing. Now,

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to their credit, I've seen certain people, one of them

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who I'm debating with, he actually does represent the position

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faithfully and he does attack like Roman Catholics as well

379
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Protestants too. But most of the people that I talked to,

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they only focus on Orthodox. They don't even talk about

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Roman Catholics. They only focus on Orthodox. And this has

382
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to be noted. There's like, really online, there's a lot

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of Oriental groups and most of these are like Western converts,

384
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they're most of them are caatic humans. And all they

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do is they're just trying to find like inquiries. The

386
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,000
Orthodox Church get them and just bombard them with all

387
00:35:45,119 --> 00:35:48,639
you know, Kalkadon, this is a historian. Here's like, here's this,

388
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this and this. Like you guys are an historian. You

389
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should come to the true Church. And they do this

390
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,119
a lot. But that has to be noted to get

391
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onto the real stuff. This is the this is the

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beautiful stuff theology. First, I would like to talk about terminology.

393
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I'm going to dive much deeper into terminology in part one.

394
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I kind of events like very basic. So one thing

395
00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:12,800
we have to make sure, and I will avoid seeing

396
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the word nature as much as I can unless I'm

397
00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:19,880
quoting someone, because for us, nature obviously means essence, right,

398
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,039
it means essence. For them it means hypostasis, and in

399
00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:27,599
some cases it means essence as well, but only in

400
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terms of Trinitarian theology. So in Severus's Letters sixty five,

401
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,559
he says that we use the name nature sometimes generally

402
00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:40,039
of essence and sometimes specifically signifying the hypostasis of a man.

403
00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:43,400
And he goes on so generally speaking, he uses nature

404
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,679
to mean essence in tridology, because the Cappadocians did this,

405
00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:49,559
but in Christology he use a different scheme, he used

406
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:55,079
a different terminology, so we will be talking about that now.

407
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Of course, hypostasis for them doesn't mean person necessarily, because

408
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,119
there are two types of hypostasis. Itself means a conchritization

409
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,159
of essence, and that's like the antique like Nicee language

410
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,960
that they inherit. There's two types of hypostasis. There's non

411
00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:18,440
self subsistent hypostasis, which is something that a hyperstat that

412
00:37:18,519 --> 00:37:20,880
doesn't exist on its own. So the example of this

413
00:37:21,039 --> 00:37:24,320
will be the body. The body without the soul doesn't exist, right,

414
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,320
so it needs to be in the union with the

415
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,679
soul in order to exist. And the soul in this

416
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,400
example is self subsistent. It exists on its own, so

417
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,519
when it's separated from the body, the soul still exists, right,

418
00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:38,719
so it's self subsistence. So these things are very important

419
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,639
to note, and the body's soul analogy is very important

420
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:47,519
in dealing with christologies. It's key to this, and there's

421
00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:53,480
a structural similarity for example, and the historians will essentially

422
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:56,920
say that all hypostasis are self subsistent. So that's why,

423
00:37:57,079 --> 00:37:59,719
like when they're speaking of two natures and two hyper

424
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,760
states and they're trying to make a union out of

425
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,199
two hypostasis, because they are self subsistent, it still leads

426
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,639
to two persons theology. Right, So this is like the

427
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,280
basis of Saint CEUs argumentation is that you can't really

428
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,159
have a single personhood in a union of persons in

429
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:22,320
a prosopic union. For severs prosopone person will mean self

430
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,159
subsistent hypostasis because it exists on its own, and there's

431
00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:31,199
a very common like so in their critological scheme, Christ

432
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,400
is out of two hypostasis. There's a divine hypostasis, right,

433
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,880
that's self subsistent, and there's a non self substance in

434
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,000
human hypostasis, even though normally a composite human hypostasis is

435
00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:46,559
self subsistent. Because the human humanity of Christ doesn't exist

436
00:38:46,639 --> 00:38:51,320
outside of the union, it's non self subsistent. So it

437
00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:54,920
might this might raise a common question, a very simple question.

438
00:38:55,519 --> 00:38:59,440
So Christ is out of two hypostasis and he's one hypostasis,

439
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,239
and it's doesn't that mean that he changed or doesn't

440
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,320
that mean that there's a fourth person in the trinity.

441
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,039
Actually no, it doesn't lead to.

442
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, only if you mistake the notion of what nature

443
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and hypostasis is. Yeah.

444
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Speaker 1: So the way they will defend it they will say, well,

445
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,440
self subsistence is personhood, right, and so the humanity is

446
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,320
now self subsistent. There's no personhood in his humanity, but

447
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his divinity is where his personhood is because that's self subsistent.

448
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,079
And so that's how they can still defend that Christ

449
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,960
is still a divine person. But there is indeed a

450
00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:40,920
problem with that. And there's two problems. Actually. Number one

451
00:39:41,159 --> 00:39:44,320
is that this kind of subverts triological language. So from

452
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,480
one nature three hypostasis, it becomes one ussi and three

453
00:39:47,519 --> 00:39:52,000
prosopa in order to defend like the divine personhoods in

454
00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:57,960
the trinity. But also remember the soul is self subsistence.

455
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,679
So this is this is something that Josephair talks about

456
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,360
a lot in his book Got issued Out. He asked

457
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,559
this question like three four times in his book, and

458
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,679
he asks, what is you know is soul and hype?

459
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,159
Are they synonymous or are they distinct? The reason why

460
00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:18,159
he's asking against the soul is self subsistent and it's

461
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,000
union with the union with the body, and the soul

462
00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:24,280
will presuppose will mean that the soul will mean the personhood.

463
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,079
So will this lead to a direction of pollinarianism is

464
00:40:28,119 --> 00:40:30,400
an argument that Joseph fairly is and I think if

465
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:36,199
you are to defend Christ's personhood, Christ's divine personhood, then

466
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,760
necessarily in that same system, it will also lead that

467
00:40:39,559 --> 00:40:41,920
that personhood is a faculty of the soul as well

468
00:40:42,119 --> 00:40:44,119
in that system, and that will lead to some sort

469
00:40:44,119 --> 00:40:48,440
of pollinarianism, not exactly, but but the same mistakes that

470
00:40:48,559 --> 00:40:53,360
pollinarius makes. So this will be like the basic problems

471
00:40:54,519 --> 00:40:57,480
that Sever's faces in Christoche. Do you have anything to add?

472
00:40:57,599 --> 00:40:58,559
Or should I move on?

473
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 9: Now? You can go ahead, okay.

474
00:41:02,199 --> 00:41:05,039
Speaker 1: So there are also other arguments, some of these I

475
00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:08,519
already used. This one is from the aunties of Jerusalem.

476
00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:14,079
So or the distinct formulas that we have is that

477
00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:17,079
we say the crisis into natures and out of two natures,

478
00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:20,360
out of two natures signifying the singleness of his personhood,

479
00:41:21,159 --> 00:41:25,159
into natures signifying the duality of his essence, duality of

480
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:30,159
his essence's, duality of his energies, right, duality of his wills.

481
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,000
So these are the two formulas that we use that

482
00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:37,760
are in perfect conjunction with other one another. Now the

483
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,800
Orientals they reject it into Nature's formula. For them, it

484
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,840
is an historian formula because to say into natures, for them,

485
00:41:45,039 --> 00:41:49,480
nature means hypostasis. So that means, oh, you mean into hypostasis.

486
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,840
Someone might ask, well, what if they said nature meant essence.

487
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,320
We will get to that because that actually happens and

488
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,159
we will see how servers responds to that. But there's

489
00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:04,480
a common argument here is if Christ is out of

490
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,400
out of two natures, out of the hypostasis, but he's

491
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,880
not into natures. But at the same time, the natures

492
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,960
are not mixed, and they're not confused, and they're distinct. Right,

493
00:42:16,039 --> 00:42:19,039
So after the Union service will speak of them being

494
00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:24,880
we'll speak a lot prieties. So what propriety is. It's

495
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,719
kind of distinct from property. It's the color of prices,

496
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,920
like eye color is a propriety of the human hypostasis.

497
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,679
Heights eith right, these are like natural qualities.

498
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, what what you see here is also similar. I

499
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,400
want to stress too to the tendency of a pollinarianism,

500
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,519
which what a pollinarism and a pollinarianism did was to

501
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,519
mistake characteristics of what are proper to human nature, different

502
00:42:47,639 --> 00:42:50,920
features and faculties or properties of human nature, to mistake

503
00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:55,239
that for what hypostasis is. Hypostasis is also not just

504
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,599
the combination of all of the characteristics of human nature.

505
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,599
So the nature person distinction is crucial here. As Saint

506
00:43:01,679 --> 00:43:05,280
John Damascus says, all heretics result from a failure to

507
00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:09,159
distinguish between nature and person. All of the heresies, all

508
00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:11,320
the trinitarian all the Christological heresies are based on this,

509
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,639
which is based on dialectics. And we're going to see

510
00:43:13,679 --> 00:43:15,960
that dialectical tension in most of these guys that we

511
00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:19,800
talk about, especially Severus with his dialectical usage of Aristotle.

512
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,480
But what I wanted to distress is just that there's

513
00:43:22,519 --> 00:43:28,119
an important distinction between the characteristic properties of a nature

514
00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:31,320
and what a hypostasis is. And this is this mistake

515
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,039
that many many people make, including people in Orthodox circles

516
00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:37,400
as well, who just simply aren't studied on this or

517
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,679
don't know the nuances of this topic. And it's very nuanced.

518
00:43:42,679 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 1: So the main argument here from Leontius, I'll cut it short,

519
00:43:46,679 --> 00:43:49,000
is so you say Cristi is out of two natures.

520
00:43:49,079 --> 00:43:52,440
That's fine, that's good. But you say that his natures

521
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,480
are also distinct even after the union, and Severance will say, yes,

522
00:43:55,519 --> 00:43:58,880
of course they're different, right, they're different. Right, his humanity

523
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,079
is different from his divinion. But then the obvious objection

524
00:44:03,199 --> 00:44:06,280
here will be so they are distinct, but doesn't distinction

525
00:44:06,519 --> 00:44:10,480
mean multiplicity. Shouldn't that mean that after the unit there's

526
00:44:10,519 --> 00:44:16,639
still two natures? And this and again if the problem

527
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,400
here is that severis want's unity of nature, unity of

528
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,320
hypostasis out of two hypostasis. But the problem is, again,

529
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,039
if you're going to try to say that they're distinct

530
00:44:26,119 --> 00:44:29,920
even after their synthesis, even after the union, the problem

531
00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:34,079
is distinction implies multiplicity. It doesn't mean imply division. It doesn't.

532
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,199
In there view it does. But in our view we

533
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,920
will say it doesn't imply division. But it still has

534
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,239
to be distinct. And if it is distinct, if it

535
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,679
is distinct, then there needs to be two natures even

536
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,679
in that logic. And this is actually the argument the

537
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,559
Answer to Jerusalem uses in his book against the Monophysites,

538
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:54,320
where he tries to argue, well, you know, you still

539
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,760
should be arguing for two natures, because this is the

540
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,960
lat logical conclusion and a debates which we will get

541
00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:02,719
on later. But the debates that Servis has with Julian

542
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,480
of holocarnosis is actually very much based on this question.

543
00:45:06,679 --> 00:45:10,880
It's very much based on whether distinction causes multiplicity or not.

544
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:17,320
There's another proof of service of Antioch, meaning of Sarahciantich

545
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:22,039
believing that distinction implies division, and that is letter letter two,

546
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,360
Letters twenty two and twenty three. I will focus on

547
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,920
letter letter twenty three in this instance. But he says

548
00:45:31,559 --> 00:45:35,880
in this letter that that there is a holy Trinity

549
00:45:36,199 --> 00:45:39,639
that is divided and distinct in hypostasis, but it is

550
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,000
not divided in one essence. So what he's trying to

551
00:45:42,079 --> 00:45:44,360
say here is that he's really trying to protect the

552
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:50,320
capitolciin theology. But because he believes distinction implies division and composition,

553
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,239
something we talk about all the time, he has to

554
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,199
say that the hypostasis are divided in the Trinity, and

555
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,639
we won't say that he's willingly being tried to we don't.

556
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:06,800
I don't think his intention is triteistic, but nevertheless it

557
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:11,639
may lead to triteism. It does anticipate triteism in his

558
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,119
in his theology, if you actually understand the implications of

559
00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:20,679
the hyposthesis being divided. But but what I wanna, what

560
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,519
I want to focus on again is that for him,

561
00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:25,840
distinction implies division. Now to get onto the debate that

562
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,760
he had with Julian of Holycarnossus. This is very important

563
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:35,480
because Julian is an Aftartodocetist. He believes that Christ's humanity

564
00:46:35,639 --> 00:46:39,199
was impassable along with his divinity, and he believes that

565
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,679
the natures had a non different difference. So in greet

566
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:48,960
this withs so he says, oh, you know, the humanity,

567
00:46:49,199 --> 00:46:52,079
they are distinct, but at the same time they're not really.

568
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:53,199
Speaker 4: And his.

569
00:46:55,079 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 1: Argument was that if this his argument, he understood that

570
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,280
the distinction implied division, and he understood in the Severian

571
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,039
system that Christ had distinct conditions. Right in his humanity

572
00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:11,079
he was passable, but in his divinity it's impassable. Right,

573
00:47:11,119 --> 00:47:15,000
So there's two distinct conditions that Christ has, and so

574
00:47:15,159 --> 00:47:18,360
he thinks that, well, this necessarily means that the properties

575
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,480
are divided because they're distinct, and that will lead to

576
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,000
division of natures and persons, which leads to Nestorianism. And

577
00:47:27,119 --> 00:47:30,840
then this is the rationale that Julian has in accusing

578
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,320
Servers of Nestorianism ultimately, because Severus is trying to be

579
00:47:35,599 --> 00:47:39,079
ortholox in his system by saying that Christ is passable

580
00:47:39,119 --> 00:47:42,239
in his humanity. But ultimately Julian actually tries to be

581
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,599
consistent with that system, and he says, no, actually, that

582
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,559
is not possible, because if there's a distinction, that means division,

583
00:47:48,639 --> 00:47:51,199
that means there's a division that means there's a duality

584
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,280
in Christ. That means there are two natures in Christ.

585
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:55,280
And we can't accept that.

586
00:47:57,079 --> 00:47:57,760
Speaker 2: And so this is.

587
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: An example of a debate that he has. I think

588
00:48:02,559 --> 00:48:05,639
we will get onto that if I'm certain, yes, we

589
00:48:05,679 --> 00:48:08,400
will get onto that debate later when we're talking about energies.

590
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,159
This is text eleven in the Service of Antioch book

591
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,840
by Pauline Allen. This is text eleven, so you can

592
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,199
go read there for yourself. I'm not making this stuff up.

593
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,400
I read the text. I know what they're talking about.

594
00:48:21,519 --> 00:48:26,360
Now there's another debate that is important, and this is

595
00:48:26,519 --> 00:48:32,719
relevant too, into nature's meaning into essences. So there's John

596
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,880
de Gramarian. He is what we will call it Curic Calcadonian.

597
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:41,480
So he's one of the first curly Caulcadonian theologians in

598
00:48:41,599 --> 00:48:44,159
the scene, and he defends Kalkadon and he he he.

599
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:48,239
The theology that he proposes is the theology, generally speaking,

600
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,719
that we used today. He's different from the person of

601
00:48:52,039 --> 00:48:54,840
John Philipponos, by the way, who's a different person. They're not.

602
00:48:55,119 --> 00:48:57,840
They both call John de Gramarian, But this John de

603
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,639
Gremarian is not the same as the philosopher John Philipponos.

604
00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:06,280
So this debate is very insightful because John the Gramarian

605
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:11,000
has a very simple argument. His argument is essentially basically this.

606
00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 3: Look.

607
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: All we did in the Council of Kalkadon is that

608
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,320
we have the Capitolcian trinitarian terminology right where nature means essence,

609
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:25,000
hypostasis means person. Right, we have this trinitarian terminology with us.

610
00:49:25,559 --> 00:49:29,880
All we did is apply that terminology to Christology. And

611
00:49:30,039 --> 00:49:33,840
so when we say into natures, the only thing we're

612
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:38,239
really saying is that Christ is into essences. That's really

613
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,400
what we're saying. And so since you too also believe

614
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,440
that Christ is into essences, you uhoually accept Kalkadon. I mean,

615
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,199
the argument is very simple, and this is also vindicated

616
00:49:49,199 --> 00:49:52,559
because we just spoke about this. Sat Leo also form

617
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,480
meaning essence, right, so this vindicates Saint Leo as well.

618
00:49:59,119 --> 00:50:03,159
So Severus has two options here. He either says he

619
00:50:03,199 --> 00:50:06,199
either accepts the argument of John the Grammarian and he says, well,

620
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,519
you know, if it means two essences, then I guess

621
00:50:09,559 --> 00:50:11,239
you guys are right. I guess you guys are really

622
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,320
not that different from us. Or he can reject it.

623
00:50:15,599 --> 00:50:17,679
And as a matter of fact, what he does is

624
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,719
he precisely does that. He precisely rejects into Nature's to

625
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,599
mean into essences. And so this will go to everyone

626
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,039
who thinks that Orientals have the same theology with us.

627
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:32,960
Severus had the possibility to speak of into essences in Christ,

628
00:50:33,559 --> 00:50:35,920
so basically have vv of the into nature's formula. And

629
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,880
he explicitly rejects this. This is in the third letter

630
00:50:41,039 --> 00:50:43,320
in Against the Grammarian. You can find this also in

631
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,400
the Paulin Allen book on Serrus of Antioch. I believe

632
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:52,360
this was text. I believe this was text eight, but

633
00:50:52,559 --> 00:50:54,559
don't quote me on that. I'm not one hundred percent

634
00:50:54,599 --> 00:51:00,800
to certain. But there's arguments. Okay, does he come to

635
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,719
the conclusion that into nature's means to a heretical conclusion. Well,

636
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,400
his argument, it shows showcases his inverse order theologist. So

637
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,639
he says, we understand substance, we understand essence to mean

638
00:51:13,159 --> 00:51:18,599
a compendium of hypostasis. So if in Christ two essences

639
00:51:18,679 --> 00:51:24,920
were united, then the problem is that these two abstract

640
00:51:25,079 --> 00:51:28,400
essences were united, meaning that the entirety of the Trinity

641
00:51:28,639 --> 00:51:32,159
and entirety of humanity was incarnated. This is nonsense. So

642
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,159
this is the argument that Serrus gives. The funny thing

643
00:51:35,199 --> 00:51:38,599
about this argument is that Nestorius uses the same exact

644
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:44,480
argument against Saint curl. Saint Curyle says that God the

645
00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:47,599
Word assumed assumed flesh. Then we find the exact part

646
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,440
this's answers. If God the Word became flesh, then all

647
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,320
the Trinity must have become flesh, since the trinity is

648
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,119
bound together as one nature. So this is the exact argument,

649
00:51:57,159 --> 00:51:59,559
and he means nature to mean essence. He used the

650
00:51:59,599 --> 00:52:03,800
same argument as in the story use did a century ago.

651
00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:09,599
And again this showcase the inverse or the theology, because

652
00:52:09,599 --> 00:52:12,480
they because you can only come to this conclusion that

653
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,360
these abstract essences are united. In our view, if you

654
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,480
start your theology with essence. Now, how now, what will

655
00:52:18,519 --> 00:52:21,599
be our response, What will we say if we came

656
00:52:21,679 --> 00:52:26,039
with this objection, we will say Christ possessed the fullness

657
00:52:26,079 --> 00:52:29,960
of the divine essence, but that doesn't mean that when

658
00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:32,519
he entered into a specific mode of being, that doesn't

659
00:52:32,559 --> 00:52:35,360
mean that the Trinity also entered into that specific mode

660
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,960
of being. So he possesses the fullness of the human essence,

661
00:52:38,679 --> 00:52:42,559
but that doesn't mean that when he does something, when

662
00:52:42,599 --> 00:52:44,239
he in terms of the mode of being the Trinity,

663
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,079
it also goes along the same with humanity. So two

664
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:51,039
nature's two essences can come into unity, but it doesn't

665
00:52:51,079 --> 00:52:54,119
affect the rest of the hypostasis in the sense that

666
00:52:54,159 --> 00:52:58,079
the rest of the hype states don't become hyposthetically incarnated

667
00:52:58,159 --> 00:53:01,960
with Christ. But this is a very i think, very

668
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:06,960
basic level mistake that Service makes, and again not many

669
00:53:07,039 --> 00:53:09,800
people really talk about this. And this is the one

670
00:53:10,159 --> 00:53:15,679
chance that anti Koncaddians had in trying to understand orteology,

671
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,960
and they completely rejected this. And so for all the

672
00:53:19,159 --> 00:53:22,960
humanists on both sides, this completely on both sides, This

673
00:53:23,159 --> 00:53:28,880
completely refutes the project that some people are trying to go.

674
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,239
Do you have any comments, Jay, or should I move

675
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:36,679
on to a mistake service makes about humanity being an energy.

676
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean again, we're going to see the constant

677
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:47,920
pattern of mistaking and characteristical properties of nature. So for us, body, mind, soul, will,

678
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:52,480
and energy is the signifier or operation proper to a

679
00:53:52,559 --> 00:53:56,320
certain nature. So when a nature acts, we can know

680
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,880
it by its energy. St Basils. So, for example, when

681
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,519
Basil argues for the full divinity of the spirit, he

682
00:54:02,599 --> 00:54:04,199
does so on the basis of the fact that the

683
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:06,880
spirit has the same uncreated energy as the Father and

684
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,280
the Son. Anybody who's read Basil's works knows that that

685
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,760
was a central key argument as to how he proved

686
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,800
the full divinity of the spirit. So we're going to

687
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,599
see this same pattern and Epizzol thirty eight at Basil,

688
00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:23,400
I would add, is very crucial to understand. I'm not

689
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,400
just saying for you before this whole debate, because it's

690
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,159
Saint Basil and the Cappadocians who will take us in

691
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:33,960
the direction that the later fathers at Chalcedon at Ephesus

692
00:54:34,559 --> 00:54:37,159
it should be at Ephysis Calcedon, and constant num one

693
00:54:37,199 --> 00:54:40,440
and two it should be two and three. They will

694
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,960
build on this theology. So our theology is going in

695
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:50,440
a consistent direction, where nature person will, the properties of

696
00:54:50,599 --> 00:54:55,320
nature that apply to human nature, body, mind, soul will,

697
00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:01,079
those terms will become very precise and cons In archeology,

698
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:05,320
energy will be very consistent. Right, Basil will argue the

699
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,360
same thing against Eunomius. I just want to stress that

700
00:55:08,559 --> 00:55:11,880
for us, the Cappadocians are crucial here, and I think

701
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,840
that it's it's very important that even though Severus and

702
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,360
certain people will cite the Cave dooceans, I don't think

703
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,639
that they really do them justice. And some of the

704
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,480
Orientals even seem to question the cave doceans, don't they.

705
00:55:25,199 --> 00:55:27,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a I'm not going to name the website,

706
00:55:27,639 --> 00:55:31,440
but there's an Oriental website that refers to like heresies

707
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,599
to be refuted. And one of the here sees that

708
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,639
we have is essence energy's distinction, So they think that

709
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,960
essence entity. Like, there's one website that is coming up

710
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:45,119
that's a coptic website refers to essenti's distinction as heretical.

711
00:55:47,159 --> 00:55:50,679
So yeah, there are some people that do that. A

712
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,519
response I got that was good is apparently Severus in

713
00:55:53,639 --> 00:56:00,039
some instances does apparently distinguish essence and energies. But we

714
00:56:00,079 --> 00:56:03,400
will actually get something relevant to that later like right now.

715
00:56:03,519 --> 00:56:08,480
But again, the significance of this debate that he had

716
00:56:08,559 --> 00:56:11,199
with John de Gramarion is that a lot of the

717
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:15,440
arguments John de Gramayon used was really talking about the

718
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:19,920
Cappadocian fathers, right. He used the Cappadocian fathers and used

719
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,400
him in a Calcadonian way in order to debate against Severus.

720
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,719
And I think I don't know if it's this letter

721
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,280
or a previous letter against John de Gramarion, but I

722
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,360
think Severus refers to him as a as a Nestorian

723
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,679
atheist Jew. I don't remember like what exact terminology he used,

724
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,480
but he like threw a lot of insults to John

725
00:56:41,519 --> 00:56:44,880
de Gramaryan. So this wasn't actually just like a minor

726
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,760
dispute that he had, Like he was very passionate about

727
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:52,039
these theological differences. He said that he said that John

728
00:56:52,159 --> 00:56:54,920
Gramarian was an Ammonite that was foreign to the laws

729
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,280
of Israel, basically implying that like his church is Israel.

730
00:56:58,519 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 2: Right, So.

731
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, like he's very like this isn't just something

732
00:57:03,039 --> 00:57:05,280
that like Severis wasn't like, oh, you know, this is

733
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,599
what I think, but I might be wrong. No, this

734
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,559
is something that I really do believe. And if and

735
00:57:10,679 --> 00:57:14,000
if we have a different point of view, then you're

736
00:57:14,039 --> 00:57:17,679
in history in eighties Jew and I really hate you.

737
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,639
Like this is the kind of view he has for this.

738
00:57:20,239 --> 00:57:22,679
So he's very adamant on protecting protecting this view, which

739
00:57:24,039 --> 00:57:26,079
the same we cannot say for the Coptics today, the

740
00:57:26,159 --> 00:57:28,840
same we cannot say for some Ecumenists, even in the

741
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,599
Orthodox camp today, in this regard, we can't I at least,

742
00:57:33,079 --> 00:57:35,360
even though he's referring to art side, I at least

743
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,679
admire the passion he has for his beliefs in that sense,

744
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,519
because I wish I saw that passionate other people, but

745
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:46,400
instead we see ecumenism. But speaking of Severis, there's an

746
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:49,159
interesting part in God History Dialectic. This is in well,

747
00:57:49,199 --> 00:57:51,519
this is in the volume one PDF. I don't know

748
00:57:51,559 --> 00:57:54,199
if the pages are different in the in the book itself,

749
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:59,840
but this is in page two twenty three. He just

750
00:58:00,119 --> 00:58:03,880
Ferrell says that Severus used the term energy in two senses, right,

751
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,440
So he does have a doction of energies, one as

752
00:58:07,519 --> 00:58:11,440
the source of act activity or operation, and two when

753
00:58:11,519 --> 00:58:14,679
he explains how the humanity itself is understood to be

754
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,400
the operational energy of the deity within the incarnation. So

755
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,519
to vindicate this, there are three sections. I'm going to

756
00:58:21,559 --> 00:58:23,400
read only one of them, but there's three sections in

757
00:58:23,519 --> 00:58:27,440
Severus's letter. One. This is to Ecumenicus where he actually

758
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,920
says this. So this is letter one to Ecumenicus Severus

759
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,159
of Antioch. He says that if then the Word changed,

760
00:58:33,199 --> 00:58:36,199
the manhood which he had hypostatic united to him, not

761
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,159
into his nature, for he remained at which he was,

762
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,079
but into his glory and operation, and things which manifestly

763
00:58:43,119 --> 00:58:45,079
belong to the flesh have come to belong to the

764
00:58:45,159 --> 00:58:48,000
Word in himself. How shall we allow that each of

765
00:58:48,079 --> 00:58:50,599
the forms performs its own acts. So he's referring to

766
00:58:50,679 --> 00:58:54,360
the tone of THEO obviously, but again three instances in

767
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,440
the first letter he says the same thing, like, how

768
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:00,519
the humanity is the operation or energy of the deity

769
00:59:00,599 --> 00:59:05,599
with an incarnation. So in the next page Pharaoh says

770
00:59:05,679 --> 00:59:09,760
two to the four. This entails two disturbing implications. Number one,

771
00:59:10,199 --> 00:59:12,400
is humanity energy of the deity of Christ in the

772
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,719
sense of the actual process of the deities operation? Why

773
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:19,400
extension is creation itself therefore God's energy, and therefore did

774
00:59:19,519 --> 00:59:22,119
God have to create as occurred in the originst problem?

775
00:59:23,159 --> 00:59:25,679
Or this is the second point is the humanity? But

776
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,760
the object of the operation of the deity. Does the

777
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,079
humanity not become, to use Servers's own words, a piece

778
00:59:32,119 --> 00:59:34,679
of wood or flint to be pushed about here and there,

779
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,800
or to use Saint Augustine's words, a lump to be

780
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:42,199
moved about by God from one state to another? As such?

781
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,320
Does God will it each and every moment to be

782
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,800
fearful in his humanity? Et cetera, and et cetera. And

783
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,519
then we will get on to this later. Actually about

784
00:59:50,599 --> 00:59:54,000
this and how this, how Pharaoh actually makes a good

785
00:59:54,119 --> 00:59:57,079
case about this? And is this not capable of being

786
00:59:57,159 --> 01:00:00,599
understood in doucty sense? In this regard one must recall

787
01:00:00,639 --> 01:00:03,079
it several speaks of operation energy as the eruption of

788
01:00:03,159 --> 01:00:06,119
the will. Does one arise at the classical amounophysid form

789
01:00:06,239 --> 01:00:09,440
of one energy, one will, which has two sets of manifestations.

790
01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:11,599
This is crucial because a lot of people make this mistake.

791
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,800
We will get to this more in debt, But a

792
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:19,079
lot of people will see, like diotelite statements from severus

793
01:00:19,119 --> 01:00:21,599
and they will think that, oh, that means he believes

794
01:00:21,639 --> 01:00:24,400
in two wills. Well not actually, because in all of

795
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:27,559
those statements he talks about it being displayed as two wills. So,

796
01:00:27,639 --> 01:00:31,079
for example, a statement I've heard severus says is that

797
01:00:31,239 --> 01:00:35,320
in the Crucifixion Christ displays two wills in sulvafic suffering,

798
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,239
and a lot of people use that to say, oh,

799
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,280
look we are diotelites. Well, actually, he says displays. That's

800
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,440
the key word. He displays. There's two manifestations of the

801
01:00:45,519 --> 01:00:48,639
one divine human tandric will. And again we will get

802
01:00:48,679 --> 01:00:51,840
to this very much in detail, how this exactly happens,

803
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,679
which will actually get to now exactly if you have

804
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:01,000
anything to add, we will get to services theology and

805
01:01:01,079 --> 01:01:05,639
how the Oriental theology leads to mono energies monotelicism. This

806
01:01:06,559 --> 01:01:07,960
is the contrast even began.

807
01:01:08,079 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 9: Right, This is the key thing to understand that the

808
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,920
track of this debate goes in a certain way. So

809
01:01:13,679 --> 01:01:16,360
it's really difficult to try to dive into this issue

810
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,079
and try to understand it or discuss it if you

811
01:01:19,239 --> 01:01:22,239
don't have the right entrance point, right, if you don't

812
01:01:22,239 --> 01:01:24,599
have the right place to come into the debate. If

813
01:01:24,639 --> 01:01:26,840
you come into debate at the time of Calcedon, you

814
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:31,840
won't know that this moves into the subject of two

815
01:01:32,039 --> 01:01:34,039
energies and two wills. And this is why I say

816
01:01:34,159 --> 01:01:37,920
Maximus will be so so crucial, because Maximus will have

817
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,159
a dispute with peis that I've talked about many times,

818
01:01:40,159 --> 01:01:41,559
and we're actually going to do a whole talk on

819
01:01:41,599 --> 01:01:43,360
this book. As I promised a long time ago. I

820
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:45,760
just forgot about it. And what we're going to see

821
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:49,360
is that there's a dialectic at work in the tension

822
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,920
between There's an assumed natural tension on the part of

823
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,000
people like Severus, between the human will and the divine will,

824
01:01:58,119 --> 01:02:00,400
whether in Man or in Christ. It's just assume that

825
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:02,559
there's going to be some natural tenson. You actually see

826
01:02:02,639 --> 01:02:05,440
that natural tension in Augustine as well. So I want

827
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:08,639
to stress to everybody the place to start on this topic.

828
01:02:10,719 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: It is.

829
01:02:11,679 --> 01:02:13,440
Speaker 9: It is relevant if you do want to get into

830
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,800
these topics, If you just dive in at Calston, it's

831
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,360
going to be difficult, it's going to be confusing. So,

832
01:02:20,079 --> 01:02:24,400
of course, as we have recommended for many years, one

833
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:26,480
of the great places to start is the dispute when

834
01:02:26,519 --> 01:02:30,000
the story is Saint Alexander and the Christological controversy of

835
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:35,039
the John McGucken book, and then we have I would recommend,

836
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:38,880
especially the Bradshaw book, because the latter chapters of the

837
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:43,199
Bradshaw Book are actually going to show the Augustinian underlying

838
01:02:43,199 --> 01:02:47,079
assumptions of simplicity that will not only underlie the Western

839
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,519
Latin tradition of the Triad and their errors on the

840
01:02:50,559 --> 01:02:52,960
Trinity and the Philly Oquay, but it's actually going to

841
01:02:53,719 --> 01:02:59,519
explain the Western notion of form and essence and simplicity,

842
01:03:00,239 --> 01:03:03,519
and this conditions the Christology. This is so important to

843
01:03:03,639 --> 01:03:06,840
understand is that the essence energy issue is not just

844
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:11,000
about the Triad. It's crucially about Christology. And this comes

845
01:03:11,079 --> 01:03:13,320
to the forefront of the debate at the sixth Council.

846
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,920
So when Saint Maximus argues this against Puris the Monothelite,

847
01:03:18,119 --> 01:03:23,360
who is the outworking of this metaphysicite Oriental sense of

848
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:26,079
the term right, because we can understand metaphysis in an

849
01:03:26,119 --> 01:03:28,800
Orthodox way. By the time that it's being debated in

850
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:33,519
Maximus's day Sat Maximus's day, the debate becomes about the

851
01:03:33,639 --> 01:03:36,159
natural tension between the human will and energy and the

852
01:03:36,239 --> 01:03:38,679
divine and so the debate, a lot of it will

853
01:03:38,679 --> 01:03:41,440
be about in this book Christ saying let this cup

854
01:03:41,519 --> 01:03:44,800
pass from me, and this will lead eventually to the

855
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,639
denial of the gnomic will. So Christ not possessing a

856
01:03:48,679 --> 01:03:53,119
gnomic will necessitates that he's a strictly speaking, divine hypostasis

857
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,400
who possesses a divine in human nature. Right, there's no

858
01:03:56,519 --> 01:03:59,960
created hypostasis in Christ, because if you possess a created hypostasis,

859
01:04:00,519 --> 01:04:02,639
the most likely there would be some notion of a

860
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,760
gnomic will. But the argument is often made that he

861
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,320
doesn't possess a gnomic will because he's a divine person.

862
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:14,039
So the neo cyrillic defense is what wins out after

863
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:17,719
the Calcedonian debates. So there's two three centuries afterwards of

864
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:20,559
debate after Chalcidon as to what these terms in these

865
01:04:20,599 --> 01:04:23,880
words mean. And again, the solution to all of this,

866
01:04:24,159 --> 01:04:26,920
in my view, all this stuff, with the debates with

867
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:30,480
the Orientals, is just simply understanding the consistent patterns of

868
01:04:30,559 --> 01:04:34,679
how we understand those words. It's beginning to be crystallized

869
01:04:34,719 --> 01:04:38,480
in the times of Athanaceous and into the Cappadocians. I'm

870
01:04:38,519 --> 01:04:40,679
not saying it wasn't true before that. It's just beginning

871
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:43,760
to be crystallized as to what hypostasis means, as to

872
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:49,639
what hypostatized means. It's particularly Leonchious of Jerusalem who really

873
01:04:50,199 --> 01:04:53,719
codifies in the Karellian sense, the notion of what in

874
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:57,320
hypostatized means. And that's why this comes to dominate after

875
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:00,800
that period, right after the time of Leonchius into the

876
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,960
Six Council. The confession of Saint Sophronius is all saying

877
01:05:04,039 --> 01:05:07,239
what we say, right, So that's how we get to

878
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:11,199
this notion that Christ possesses two wills two energies because

879
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,679
energy is as Saint John Damascus all the way back

880
01:05:13,679 --> 01:05:16,960
to the Cappadians, Energy signifies the type of nature. If

881
01:05:17,039 --> 01:05:19,840
Christ possesses a human and divine nature, then he has

882
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:23,559
to always possess two wills and two energies, even though

883
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:27,800
they're not intension, they're always in symphonia. They're working together

884
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:31,239
in Christ. That's the Orthodox view. So the human will

885
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,559
is deified by the divine will and energy, as the

886
01:05:34,599 --> 01:05:38,360
Fifth and Six Council specify. As exposition of Orthodox Faithbook

887
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:44,119
three specifies, Christ communicates to his humanity the divine glories

888
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:48,559
of the uncreated energies. That means it raises and deifies

889
01:05:48,599 --> 01:05:51,960
as human nature, but it doesn't lose its natural properties.

890
01:05:52,199 --> 01:05:56,000
So there's always a human created aspect to Christ. Even

891
01:05:56,039 --> 01:05:59,719
though it's deified. It's never destroyed, it's never divided, it's

892
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:03,360
never absolved. It always retains its natural properties even though

893
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,559
it's deified. So when Jesus is resurrected, it's the same

894
01:06:06,679 --> 01:06:09,639
body that he had before he was resurrected, but it's deified.

895
01:06:10,239 --> 01:06:12,239
So in the same way, this is the model not

896
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:16,519
just for Christology, it's the model for the essence, energy distinction,

897
01:06:16,639 --> 01:06:19,119
how God relates to and interacts with the world. It's

898
01:06:19,199 --> 01:06:22,679
the basis for Maximus's logos logi doctrine, right, because the

899
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,559
logi interpenetrate all reality. They are the bases of all

900
01:06:25,639 --> 01:06:28,920
created reality, being the patterns and ideas and archetypes in

901
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:31,639
the divine mind in the logos. That's why all things

902
01:06:31,639 --> 01:06:35,400
are made through the logos. Again, the logi or uncreated energies,

903
01:06:35,599 --> 01:06:37,400
and the same thing is going to be applied here

904
01:06:37,519 --> 01:06:41,000
in Christology, in the debate between the wills and the natures. Right,

905
01:06:41,199 --> 01:06:45,079
there's a balance here, there's a synergy here, and everything

906
01:06:45,119 --> 01:06:48,079
that David's telling you comes to the forefront in this

907
01:06:48,199 --> 01:06:50,960
dispute with puis all the stuff that I just said

908
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,400
about the logi, the uncreated energy, that's all in this

909
01:06:53,519 --> 01:06:56,159
debate right here. That's the whole locus of this debate.

910
01:06:56,519 --> 01:06:59,239
This is what's cited at the sixth Council when Pope

911
01:06:59,239 --> 01:07:02,000
Saint Agatha's his letter about Christ possessing two wills and

912
01:07:02,039 --> 01:07:05,440
two energies, when San Sophronius writes his letter about Christ

913
01:07:05,519 --> 01:07:09,119
possessing two wills and two energies. This book here is

914
01:07:09,199 --> 01:07:11,679
the source for this. So what David is going to

915
01:07:11,719 --> 01:07:14,079
tell you right now is crucial to the solution of

916
01:07:14,159 --> 01:07:17,519
this whole issue. Yep.

917
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,639
Speaker 1: Because what I'm going to be talking about now, as

918
01:07:19,719 --> 01:07:23,239
John of Pephesus, who is also to my knowledge also

919
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:27,800
part of the anti Calcadonian team, he says that Severus Philoxenus,

920
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:31,480
these people are really the creators of the monoty that movement.

921
01:07:31,559 --> 01:07:35,960
So an objection that we hear genuinely is that a

922
01:07:36,159 --> 01:07:39,880
Pires was a Calcadonian. He's your problem. That's like a

923
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:43,280
Muslim saying like arianism is your problem. I mean, it

924
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:46,840
doesn't really make any sense. It's a problem for us

925
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:50,360
because monotilitism is wrong. But in their theology many of

926
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,679
their fathers actually teach that. But again I can feel

927
01:07:53,719 --> 01:07:55,639
for the anti calocus in the sense of, well, how

928
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,000
like can you demonstrate how it is monotilaw is, how

929
01:07:59,039 --> 01:08:01,960
it is monel energies right, actually precisely, if that's what

930
01:08:02,039 --> 01:08:04,239
we're going to be doing right now. So I'm going

931
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:06,800
to start with a quote from Severus in his Harmon

932
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:10,000
one hundred and twenty five. He says that hypostasis does

933
01:08:10,079 --> 01:08:12,800
not deny Genus or Ussi or abold the shit, but

934
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:16,600
it sets apart and limits in particular icons the one

935
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:20,279
who subsists. Now, what does this really mean if you're

936
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:24,159
talking about Ceverus's system And I also talked about this

937
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:27,720
in the first stream. He believes that reality exists in

938
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,920
three planes. So there's a trinitarian realm, there is the

939
01:08:32,119 --> 01:08:35,520
intelligible realm, the realm of the angels, right, and then

940
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,479
there's a material world that we inhabit in right now.

941
01:08:40,399 --> 01:08:44,399
So it's key to understand that for him, like the

942
01:08:45,119 --> 01:08:48,880
unity of the hypostasis of Christ, it's not like two

943
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:51,880
material substances that are mixed. Right, they each operate in

944
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,560
their own reality. They're in synthesis, which is what we

945
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:57,079
will also say it is a synthesis. Saint Kill himself

946
01:08:57,119 --> 01:08:59,319
says that the union is a synthesis. So in that

947
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:02,159
point we agree it Severus that there is a synthesis.

948
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:05,439
But because of his system, which is based on Plato,

949
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:09,680
based on Platonism, and he's trying to basically christianize that system,

950
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,600
I will say like he's attempting to at least christianize

951
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,119
the system, unlike like trying to hellenizing it. But the

952
01:09:16,199 --> 01:09:20,079
problem is that in his system, these two natures, these

953
01:09:20,119 --> 01:09:23,600
two hypostasis, they operate in their own realms. So the

954
01:09:24,079 --> 01:09:26,800
vills operate in their own reality. So the divine will,

955
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,680
the way it operates, it operates in the trinitarian realm.

956
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,640
The problem here is is that CEUs himself says, I

957
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:39,840
believe in hormily which one is eighty one. I believe

958
01:09:40,239 --> 01:09:43,399
harmily eighty one, where he talks about that the human

959
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:46,880
will is an iconic representation of the divine will, just

960
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:49,279
as the body is the iconic representation of the soul.

961
01:09:49,279 --> 01:09:51,800
So there's a synonymity here. So right, just like how

962
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:55,319
the soul animates the body, so does the divine will

963
01:09:55,399 --> 01:09:58,920
animate the human will. And this is precisely what we

964
01:09:59,039 --> 01:10:01,920
mean by monoetulit in severus, it is the divinevill that

965
01:10:02,039 --> 01:10:06,880
animates the human will and gives it life. It's it's

966
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:10,800
because that the human will is non self subsistent. It

967
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:13,439
needs the divine will in order to exist, just like

968
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:17,319
how the human hypostasis is non self subsistent. It requires

969
01:10:17,399 --> 01:10:21,319
the divine hypostasis in order to exist. So this applies

970
01:10:21,399 --> 01:10:24,520
to energies, and it also applies to the wills. And

971
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,079
if you can, and if you if you're not convinced,

972
01:10:27,119 --> 01:10:28,800
you might say, ah, you know, that seems like a

973
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:32,159
different argument. Well, let's hear from Severus himself. This is

974
01:10:32,199 --> 01:10:34,920
from text twenty six, his letter to John de Huguminos.

975
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:40,159
He says that and he quotes from Saint Dionistius areopaguide, which, again,

976
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:44,479
to be fair to Severus, he is quoting these people,

977
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:48,880
and he considers Saint Dionistius as an authentic apostle. So

978
01:10:49,039 --> 01:10:52,199
to his credit, he tries to be patristic, and he

979
01:10:52,279 --> 01:10:56,239
tries to be logical with the Kappadocins. But here's what

980
01:10:56,399 --> 01:10:59,199
he says. He says that, as we have already written,

981
01:10:59,279 --> 01:11:02,000
this is to John the Hegumenus text twenty six of

982
01:11:02,119 --> 01:11:05,479
the Service of Antioch book from Paul and Allen, as

983
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:08,479
we have already written extensively in other writings, we have

984
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,840
understood and understand the statement of the old Holy Deonist

985
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:16,199
Hystereopa Guide, who says, when God became human, he performed

986
01:11:16,239 --> 01:11:19,760
for us a new divine human tantric activity as meaning

987
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:23,199
one composite activity. But this is what this, here is

988
01:11:23,279 --> 01:11:25,560
what he says that we will disagree with heavily. So

989
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:28,159
so far it's good, but then he says, in our

990
01:11:28,319 --> 01:11:31,479
eyes it cannot be understood other than as a rejection

991
01:11:32,159 --> 01:11:36,439
of every duality. So here he is very obviously saying

992
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:40,520
that we don't accept the duality of wills. And there's

993
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,399
also numerous quotations that we have that we will get

994
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:47,000
to where he believes that separate civil So this is

995
01:11:47,279 --> 01:11:53,399
this obviously strongly implies that Service rejects dietelicism, and this

996
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:58,520
is his basis right. The tom of Leo was actually

997
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:01,439
very crucial in the six Segumentical Council because precisely it

998
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:05,880
spoke of two forms of operating, and two bills and

999
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:09,960
two energies operating. And this is actually very this is

1000
01:12:10,039 --> 01:12:12,239
the main part that he disagrees. So he disagrees with

1001
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:15,319
the tom of Leo not because of the two forms,

1002
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:19,600
but because the two forms have their own energies, have

1003
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:21,920
their own operations and their own wills. So this is

1004
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:26,520
from against Julian. This is text thirteen in the pauland

1005
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:30,840
Allen book, when when he's responding to Julian of Holycarnassus

1006
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:34,279
who says that Christ has a non different difference, right,

1007
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:39,960
he says, so, so Julian accuses servers of believing in

1008
01:12:40,039 --> 01:12:43,479
two properties. Right, He said, oh, you believe in two properties,

1009
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:46,800
you believe in two natures, you believe in two operations

1010
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:50,399
and all that stuff. You're like the Calcedonians. And Sarah's

1011
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:53,600
response in reply to these things, we shall say, in short,

1012
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,720
one simple true word. Show us that we have written

1013
01:12:56,840 --> 01:13:00,760
somewhere that Christ exists in two natures and into properties.

1014
01:13:01,199 --> 01:13:04,079
But you cannot say so, for in every place each

1015
01:13:04,159 --> 01:13:07,479
person discovers that our loveliness and anatomatizes those who divide

1016
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:10,760
the one Christ and the duplication of natures and after

1017
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:14,079
operations and their properties. Right, So notice how he talks

1018
01:13:14,119 --> 01:13:18,239
about dividing the Christ into two operations in the duplication

1019
01:13:18,319 --> 01:13:22,159
of operations of the natures. And this also, this statement

1020
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:26,720
is very crucial because he also implies again in a

1021
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:31,119
duplication of natures. Remember, for him, nature's hypostasis in a

1022
01:13:31,199 --> 01:13:34,000
duplication of natures and of their operations and their properties.

1023
01:13:34,039 --> 01:13:36,880
Now what's the problem. So for him, hypostasis is where

1024
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,319
energy and will resides. But there's a very simple objection

1025
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:43,720
to that. And you we talked about numerous times if

1026
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:51,720
if energy was proper to hypostasis, then they triteism, right exactly.

1027
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,359
So again this theology in another sense, we can show,

1028
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:56,920
we can see that this theology kind of leads to so.

1029
01:13:56,960 --> 01:14:00,560
Speaker 9: I mean typically the Orientals to reply to them, I mean,

1030
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:02,960
they just have to divide, they have to reject that.

1031
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,800
Uh that predicating back right into the triad, that there's

1032
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:10,239
a that there's a similarity between uh, nature, person and

1033
01:14:10,279 --> 01:14:12,079
will and the triad and the way that nature, person

1034
01:14:12,159 --> 01:14:14,279
and will function in anthropology and christology.

1035
01:14:14,359 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 1: Right, yep, Uh, I missed that kind of job. I'm

1036
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:23,279
sorry this is going to be yir, but I missed that.

1037
01:14:23,359 --> 01:14:26,079
Can you repeat that again, I missed that do they?

1038
01:14:26,279 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 9: So You've interacted with a lot of those guys one

1039
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,039
on one more than I have, And I'm asking a

1040
01:14:31,159 --> 01:14:33,760
question in terms I've wrote the theology that we're talking about,

1041
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:35,359
but I'm not interacted with a lot of these guys

1042
01:14:35,359 --> 01:14:38,439
in terms of like debates and discussions. What I'm asking

1043
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:40,720
is is that do they? I mean, it seems to

1044
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:43,039
me that they would have to deny that there is

1045
01:14:44,079 --> 01:14:49,960
a reading back or reflexive predication between the triad and Christology.

1046
01:14:50,039 --> 01:14:51,800
In other words, wouldn't they just have to say, well,

1047
01:14:52,399 --> 01:14:54,640
in the triad, it's not that way. We have one

1048
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:58,920
will in God, one energy, three hypostases, but in terms

1049
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:01,439
of the incarnation it's not that way. It's different.

1050
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. Usually when I or like my friends who got

1051
01:15:06,119 --> 01:15:08,600
the whole got these arguments from me, like when they

1052
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,960
make these arguments against Orientals, they they literally do not

1053
01:15:12,079 --> 01:15:14,960
give an answer, which is very strange. So one instance

1054
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:18,279
that was pretty funny is that a friend of mine

1055
01:15:18,319 --> 01:15:21,920
we're talking about, like, you know, why do you why

1056
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:25,399
do you reject duality in Christ and and and the Oriental?

1057
01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:30,039
He replied with, well, duality presupposes separation, right because there's

1058
01:15:30,079 --> 01:15:32,920
a distinction here. And then my friend obviously went on

1059
01:15:33,039 --> 01:15:36,239
to say, well, but the persons in the trinity are distinct,

1060
01:15:36,279 --> 01:15:38,800
does that mean the Trinity is divided? Not Actually severe

1061
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:41,800
says yes in the sense of hypostasis, but he literally

1062
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:43,920
got no answers from that. So yeah, there is there

1063
01:15:44,039 --> 01:15:51,600
is like different applications of Christology and Trinitarian theology. It's

1064
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:56,119
kind of like double theology in that sense. And so far,

1065
01:15:56,239 --> 01:16:00,039
I haven't really gotten any responses because usually again and

1066
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:03,399
most of these people, they will adamantly try to make

1067
01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:05,960
their position the same as ours, right, they will try

1068
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:09,560
to adamantly be diotelites, even though as you can see,

1069
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:12,399
their father's reject diotelitism. I mean, he says there is

1070
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:16,199
no duality in Christ. Theandric will right. So the synthetic

1071
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:21,279
bill is one. So I haven't really heard any proper responses,

1072
01:16:21,399 --> 01:16:24,920
and you're gonna have a hard time hearing a proper

1073
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:28,760
response usually because either they don't know of these things

1074
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:34,720
this is pretty like high level or actually that's pretty

1075
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:37,279
much most of the reason, or they just want to

1076
01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:40,359
pretend to be like us. So that these are the

1077
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:44,960
main problems that occur in these debates. I'll continue on

1078
01:16:45,079 --> 01:16:47,880
with some of the quotations of Servius. This is Serius

1079
01:16:48,039 --> 01:16:52,039
letter forty seven. He says, considering the general benefit of

1080
01:16:52,079 --> 01:16:54,399
a union of the Holy churches and demanding an open

1081
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:57,359
anatom of the things done as Kulcadon against the Orthodox

1082
01:16:57,479 --> 01:17:00,079
faith and of the wicked tom of Leo, and of

1083
01:17:00,199 --> 01:17:02,920
those who speak of two natures after the union, and

1084
01:17:03,039 --> 01:17:05,159
the operations of these and their properties.

1085
01:17:05,319 --> 01:17:05,439
Speaker 3: Right.

1086
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 1: So again, obviously he's not referring to two natures after

1087
01:17:09,039 --> 01:17:11,079
the union, as to me in essence, right. If he

1088
01:17:11,199 --> 01:17:14,199
meant that, then that will be even worse, because then

1089
01:17:14,239 --> 01:17:18,239
he will be Utichian. But he means nature's nature to

1090
01:17:18,279 --> 01:17:21,760
be hypostasis here, and the operations of the hypostasis of

1091
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:26,680
these and their properties. There's another example, letter thirty nine.

1092
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:31,119
I'm not going to read the entire thing, Actually, I wiel.

1093
01:17:31,279 --> 01:17:33,399
It's also a man who accepts the right confession of

1094
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:35,359
the edict if it is enough for him, and he

1095
01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:37,800
does not add the exact words which remove the heresy,

1096
01:17:38,399 --> 01:17:40,800
opens the door to impiety through the ambiguity of the

1097
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:43,199
written words, and falls under the synthesis of the Holy

1098
01:17:43,279 --> 01:17:45,880
gregory in that he is doing detriment to the truth.

1099
01:17:46,319 --> 01:17:49,239
But if besides the edict, he both confesses one incarrtent

1100
01:17:49,319 --> 01:17:51,920
nature of God the Word and anathematizes those who speak

1101
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:54,640
of two natures after the union, and the operations and

1102
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:57,600
properties of these, and all the impiety that was confirmed

1103
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:01,039
with Kalkadon. He has removed the danger that is expected

1104
01:18:01,079 --> 01:18:05,520
from the ambiguity. So this is letter thirty nine. Another

1105
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:09,079
this is the final letter that I will read. This

1106
01:18:09,279 --> 01:18:13,600
is his letter to Ecumenicus, Letter one. Accordingly, good doctrine

1107
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:15,960
is contained an end of the Syrian king. For it

1108
01:18:16,079 --> 01:18:19,279
anathematizes those who divide the one son who has hyperstack

1109
01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:22,439
united to flesh, into two natures, and the operations and

1110
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:25,000
properties of the same two natures. So again this is

1111
01:18:25,439 --> 01:18:28,399
the main difference that they have with the tom of Leo.

1112
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:32,920
It's not really about nature per se, about the energy's

1113
01:18:33,279 --> 01:18:38,239
bills and all that jazz. That's really the real difference here.

1114
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:42,800
Speaker 9: Human will becomes an iconic representation of the divine will,

1115
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:46,159
and it's subjected to it. There's a dialectical definition of

1116
01:18:46,279 --> 01:18:53,239
will and choice here. This is a critique that for

1117
01:18:53,359 --> 01:18:56,960
all makes in the section on energy will an agency

1118
01:18:58,119 --> 01:19:01,439
in the and the point there is to say once

1119
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:04,560
again that this whole position is predicated on dialectics. There

1120
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:10,479
has to be some natural tension between created and uncreated,

1121
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:15,239
between human will and divine will, between grace and nature.

1122
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:18,840
Speaker 1: And we will talk exactly about that. So that's enough

1123
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:23,119
about Servius for now. I will introduce Pix Sinnes of

1124
01:19:23,199 --> 01:19:26,079
Madbuck into this. So he was a bishop of modern

1125
01:19:26,119 --> 01:19:29,359
day Montbisch. He was a contemporary of Severus of Antioch,

1126
01:19:30,159 --> 01:19:32,560
and he's a huge deal. So if the vest has

1127
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:36,920
Saint Augustine, Saint Jerome, and Thomas Aquinas as their faces,

1128
01:19:37,079 --> 01:19:40,399
then Orientals, at least in their mind, their faces will

1129
01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:43,840
be Saint Kirol of Alexandria, Severus of Antioch, and Philix

1130
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:45,960
Cinnus of Mabock. They will be like the faces of

1131
01:19:46,079 --> 01:19:51,479
Oriental theology. The thing about Felix Sennus of Madboch is

1132
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:56,560
his theology is even more explicitly heretical. So if you

1133
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:59,399
look at page sixty eight and sixty nine in the

1134
01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:03,319
book Three Monophysite Christologies, Seras of Fantic, filix Is of

1135
01:20:03,359 --> 01:20:07,119
Mabig and Jacobo Sarug. This book was written by ROBERTA. Chestnut,

1136
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:12,039
Page sixty eight and sixty nine. Felix Senda says, Felixids

1137
01:20:12,079 --> 01:20:15,760
believes in materialism, so he preaches materialism. He believes that

1138
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:19,000
the body is the densest, the soul is lighter, and

1139
01:20:19,159 --> 01:20:21,840
God is the lightest being of false so he believes

1140
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:29,239
in some form of materialism. Having made that, note what

1141
01:20:29,479 --> 01:20:34,479
he says in hormily in harmony twelve, he believes that

1142
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:36,920
the body and the soul have two vills at war

1143
01:20:37,039 --> 01:20:38,560
with each other. So this is the body soul right,

1144
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,479
human body and soul. So the body has a has

1145
01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:45,520
a vill and the soul has a will. And this

1146
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:47,760
raised an obvious question, right, how is it that we

1147
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,399
have one vill as human beings? Then if body and

1148
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:52,479
the soul has a vill and they are involved with

1149
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:55,680
each other, well, it's dialectics of opposition. The vills are

1150
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:58,359
in a synthetic union where they battle over each other.

1151
01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:01,960
And if the body then right, if the bodily vill wins,

1152
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:05,600
it's adultery. If the soul wins, it's a good union.

1153
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:09,159
And this isn't harmonly twelve of Philoxenus of Mambog. He

1154
01:21:09,359 --> 01:21:11,680
also goes on to say that the bodily will doesn't

1155
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:14,920
merely lust after food or sexual satisfaction or any of that.

1156
01:21:15,159 --> 01:21:17,960
This is not what the body will is. It's literally

1157
01:21:18,039 --> 01:21:22,880
about everything about the world. So philosophy, science, rationality, argumentation, debates.

1158
01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:26,199
These are all lusts of the body. They're all part

1159
01:21:26,239 --> 01:21:29,520
of the bodyvill and the soul lusts after the things

1160
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:32,319
of the spirit. Right, So for the spiritual realm, this

1161
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:34,560
is what the So it's like the soul is like

1162
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:38,800
this hyper pietistic, and the body is this like I

1163
01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:42,239
will always debate it like this crazy debate maniac guy.

1164
01:21:43,199 --> 01:21:47,399
If we were if we were personifying these two bodybuil

1165
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:52,520
body soulvills and these two as Philoxenis himself says, I

1166
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:56,439
post I told either screenshot Jay if you're showing that.

1167
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:00,680
In Harly ten eleven and twelve, he consistently says that

1168
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:04,319
the body and the soul are by nature opposed to

1169
01:22:04,359 --> 01:22:06,600
each other. So by nature they're opposed to each other,

1170
01:22:07,119 --> 01:22:10,560
according to Philix Sinus of mad Bog, So this is

1171
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:13,039
how humanity is from. And again, why are we talking

1172
01:22:13,039 --> 01:22:15,720
about body and soul? Well, it deals with anthropology, but

1173
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:19,399
it also deals with Christ himself, right, it also deals

1174
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:22,600
with this also applies to Christ himself and his body

1175
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:26,840
and his soul. Now, some people might say, oh, you know,

1176
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:31,000
this is too far. We don't we reject that. Okay,

1177
01:22:31,039 --> 01:22:34,239
they'll say this is too far, we don't agree with everything.

1178
01:22:34,279 --> 01:22:37,199
Philoxin says, well, that's a problem because Severus and philox

1179
01:22:37,199 --> 01:22:39,359
Sinnus were good friends. They knew each other, they knew

1180
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:42,680
what they believed, they knew each other. So we will

1181
01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:46,520
say philox Innes doesn't have he doesn't have a different christology.

1182
01:22:47,119 --> 01:22:51,199
He compliments. I will say Severus's Christology, because as I said,

1183
01:22:51,239 --> 01:22:54,079
they're both in the same team. They both they both

1184
01:22:54,239 --> 01:22:59,439
very well know each other. But to repeat on the

1185
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,119
on the on the human will, on how the human

1186
01:23:02,159 --> 01:23:05,520
will is formed. Again, the human will is synthetically formed,

1187
01:23:06,079 --> 01:23:08,720
just like how the divine and human will are synthetically formed.

1188
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:11,640
We call this the tiandric vill and these are in

1189
01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:14,479
opposition with each other. And just like that, the divine

1190
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:17,399
will and the human will are also by nature in

1191
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:21,439
opposition to one another. There's an example. So there's an

1192
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:25,319
example of Service of Antioch where he speaks of again

1193
01:23:25,399 --> 01:23:28,159
Christ displaying two wills in sulif excepting He then goes

1194
01:23:28,199 --> 01:23:31,680
on to say that that Christ, in his humanity, was

1195
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:35,239
very fearful and Philix Sinistan's service both agree that he

1196
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:37,640
was more fearful than a normal human. Bul right, he

1197
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:40,840
was incredibly fearful, but at the same time he had

1198
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:43,840
divine courage. And what Saint Maximus will say in response

1199
01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:48,319
to this is that fear and courage are both human emotions, right,

1200
01:23:48,399 --> 01:23:51,119
So there these both pertain to the human will of Christ.

1201
01:23:51,359 --> 01:23:53,880
They're not in dialectical tension, right. The human will wasn't

1202
01:23:54,319 --> 01:23:57,279
scared and the divine will was. We'll say, oh, you

1203
01:23:57,319 --> 01:23:59,920
know whatever, it's fine. There wasn't any tension like that

1204
01:24:00,119 --> 01:24:02,840
between those two. But in their view, in the Oriental view,

1205
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:09,359
there is a tension. And what's really important again, this

1206
01:24:09,479 --> 01:24:12,159
will is synthetic, just like how christ will is synthetic.

1207
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:15,800
A huge implication, and we can see from Servius himself

1208
01:24:16,720 --> 01:24:20,880
and most likely Filoxcentus, they both reject epicatus stasis, and

1209
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,479
that's obviously because they want to follow the fathers, right,

1210
01:24:24,520 --> 01:24:26,159
so we can credit them for that. They're trying to

1211
01:24:26,199 --> 01:24:29,359
remain orthodox. But the problem is in their theology. If

1212
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:32,399
the divine will in Christ animated the human will, then

1213
01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:35,439
how is it that in the recapitulation, how is it

1214
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:40,079
that Christ is not gonna animate or human wills. Again,

1215
01:24:40,119 --> 01:24:43,359
how is it that because in Christ the human will

1216
01:24:43,479 --> 01:24:47,039
was subsumed and was dominated by the divine will, then

1217
01:24:47,119 --> 01:24:50,439
that logically follows the same should be happening in the Esctan. Therefore,

1218
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:54,119
universalism should actually be true. Isn't that truth? Shouldn't In

1219
01:24:54,199 --> 01:24:59,720
the Oriental view, universalism be the consistent theological truth instead

1220
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:06,079
of whatever version of apricateastasis they have. So someone Stephen

1221
01:25:06,159 --> 01:25:10,199
barstud Highly even takes this one step further and he

1222
01:25:10,319 --> 01:25:15,520
says that and he's a heretic according to the Oriental position,

1223
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:17,920
but his view is very interesting because I think it's

1224
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:21,359
logically consistent. He says that not only will we all

1225
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:24,119
be said, but we will all be consubstantial with God himself.

1226
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:28,439
So again, this position is heretical in the Oriental Church.

1227
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:31,199
So this is not an attack against Oriental churche. But

1228
01:25:31,239 --> 01:25:34,560
I'm just saying that this is what logically should follow

1229
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:36,840
if you have this doctrine of phils, this is what

1230
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:40,439
should be happening. Because if, again, if in Christ, the

1231
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:43,640
divine will dominates the human will, then who's to say

1232
01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:45,720
the same won't be happening to us. That's why we

1233
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:48,239
have a synergy of the human and divine wills. We

1234
01:25:48,279 --> 01:25:51,239
don't have an opposition, because the moment you have an opposition,

1235
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:56,479
there are many different theological problems that come out of that.

1236
01:25:58,359 --> 01:26:01,880
So that's Wold. And if you look at Jacob of Saruk,

1237
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:05,800
just a small chapter on him on Hills, he himself

1238
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,720
like he absolutely believes that there's one nature of one veil,

1239
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:12,039
one energy. Like he's very open about that. And he's

1240
01:26:12,079 --> 01:26:15,159
a saint in the Truth is an important scene, not

1241
01:26:15,279 --> 01:26:18,640
theologically speaking, but as a general saint, he is very

1242
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:21,520
important in the communion. So do you have anything to

1243
01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:22,520
add about Vill's j.

1244
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:27,159
Speaker 9: Because that will be that it's important to understand that

1245
01:26:28,479 --> 01:26:31,439
the movement and action and property will can't be defined

1246
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:36,439
after the fall a post Lapsarian doctrine of a defining

1247
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:41,359
free will. It's part of what affects the western Augustinian definition.

1248
01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:44,000
So you don't have an Augustine, for example, any notion

1249
01:26:44,239 --> 01:26:48,560
of the ability to choose between multiple goods. And this

1250
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:52,359
actually comes into the debate with the Monothelites in terms

1251
01:26:52,399 --> 01:26:56,000
of Paris and the way that Saint Maximus will debate

1252
01:26:56,039 --> 01:26:58,840
with heroes. He'll actually make the argument that if there's

1253
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:02,560
only one sense that we are directing our gaze towards,

1254
01:27:03,279 --> 01:27:08,720
then the originistic definition of free will being defined as

1255
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:12,880
a choice between good and evil is by necessity married

1256
01:27:12,960 --> 01:27:15,560
to the notion of turning the gaze away from the one,

1257
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:18,399
the essence of the One. This is another reason why

1258
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:20,520
we can't hold to the beatific vision. So this is

1259
01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:23,680
absolutely connected to what we're talking about in terms of Christology,

1260
01:27:24,239 --> 01:27:26,920
because in the Esketon, we're not just staring into the

1261
01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:29,279
beatific vision of the essence of God. That's why the

1262
01:27:29,319 --> 01:27:31,920
Eastern fathers nowhere teach this. They teach that we see,

1263
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:34,920
as Saint Maximus says, the many things around God in

1264
01:27:34,960 --> 01:27:38,520
the Esketon the vision of God, and the Esketon is

1265
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:42,000
the vision of the uncreated logie, and so that's a

1266
01:27:42,079 --> 01:27:44,840
direct experience of God. But it's also the ability to

1267
01:27:45,399 --> 01:27:48,600
retain free will. How do we retain free will if

1268
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:51,359
there's no evil? Because evil? Free will is not defined

1269
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:54,720
dialectically between a choice of good and evil. That's only

1270
01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:57,479
characteristic of the fallen state. When we're not in the

1271
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:00,640
fallen state anymore, there's the ability to chew use and

1272
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:04,239
to move the will as a choice between multiple goods,

1273
01:28:04,399 --> 01:28:06,520
and so all of the church fathers will define free

1274
01:28:06,560 --> 01:28:08,880
will as the ability to make choices this thing or

1275
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:11,119
that thing. But if there's only the essence of God,

1276
01:28:11,279 --> 01:28:14,640
then you can't potentially or possibly actually choose or will

1277
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:16,960
anything other than the essence of God. This is very

1278
01:28:17,039 --> 01:28:19,800
crucial because absolute define simplicity is not just a doctrine

1279
01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:23,159
of denying the essence synergy distinction, and also applies to Christology.

1280
01:28:23,239 --> 01:28:27,079
It makes Christology impossible. It leads to the dialectical tension

1281
01:28:27,199 --> 01:28:30,199
in people like Severus in the way that they define simplicity.

1282
01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:34,039
Severus will actually use the neoplatonic definition of what simplicity

1283
01:28:34,199 --> 01:28:37,439
is when he talks about what these natures are in themselves,

1284
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:41,399
and so he makes them reducible into one dimensional categories

1285
01:28:41,399 --> 01:28:44,439
in terms of what nature is or is supposed to be,

1286
01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:47,880
especially in the incarnation. And so this has an effect

1287
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:51,600
on one's doctrine of free will and choice. And so

1288
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:54,600
in the Esketon, all those positions that believe in the

1289
01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:57,479
beatific vision in the Roman Catholic Latin sense, they all

1290
01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:01,039
deny free will. In the Escaton redefine it to say, well,

1291
01:29:01,079 --> 01:29:03,439
your will is truly free now because you don't make choices,

1292
01:29:03,479 --> 01:29:07,840
you only choose the essence of God. That's a complete rejection,

1293
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:10,159
in denial of what all the church fathers taught free

1294
01:29:10,199 --> 01:29:12,880
will was. Did Christ possess free will when he was incarnate?

1295
01:29:12,920 --> 01:29:15,159
Of course he did. Did he only will one thing?

1296
01:29:15,239 --> 01:29:16,800
Did he only will the essence of God? I mean,

1297
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:20,279
it's ridiculous, right, No, Christ, just as God can can

1298
01:29:20,399 --> 01:29:22,920
freely will to do different things. God freely chose to

1299
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,439
create the world. Christ freely walked around and willed to

1300
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:28,960
do what he did, and he freely willed in both

1301
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:32,039
of his natures right, the human will and will were

1302
01:29:32,119 --> 01:29:33,439
freely operating.

1303
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:37,520
Speaker 1: Sorry I interrupted you, ja, but I was gonna I

1304
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:40,680
was gonna add. The oriental response to this, The oriental

1305
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:43,880
view will be that since God is good, like he's

1306
01:29:44,000 --> 01:29:46,720
marebely good, then there is no kind of like there

1307
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:49,439
is free will. But because God is good, the feeble

1308
01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:52,239
aspect is only in the human wild, if that makes sense.

1309
01:29:53,199 --> 01:29:56,479
In contrast to like how they will view this, this

1310
01:29:56,720 --> 01:30:13,000
builds question mm hmm, go ahead, all right, I'll go ahead.

1311
01:30:13,000 --> 01:30:17,960
I guess in this I think I dealt with wills.

1312
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:20,079
I want to kind of talk about to move on.

1313
01:30:20,279 --> 01:30:25,439
I want to move on to Phillixinus's eucharistic problems. I

1314
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:27,960
mentioned this in the first stream as well with Jay.

1315
01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:33,760
So there are two. So Christ, for Philoxinus exists as

1316
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:36,800
God by nature and as a man by miracle. So

1317
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:41,359
there's like two different modes of existences. There's a miraculous

1318
01:30:41,439 --> 01:30:45,119
existence that that he exists out by the virtue of

1319
01:30:45,159 --> 01:30:50,239
his will and his natural existence as God. Now this

1320
01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:54,520
is relevant because this goes into the eucharistic theology. And

1321
01:30:54,640 --> 01:30:58,399
so as an example I used is, let's say that

1322
01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:01,760
you're an atheist and you're anti Caan Church, and phillix

1323
01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:03,600
Sinus is right there like looking at you, and you

1324
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:06,359
take the Euchrist. Your atheist, you don't believe in anything,

1325
01:31:06,399 --> 01:31:09,119
but you somehow manage to take the Eucharist, and you

1326
01:31:09,279 --> 01:31:12,319
come back to Philixinus and you're like, hey, I took

1327
01:31:12,359 --> 01:31:14,920
the Euchrist and you said that I was. You guys

1328
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:16,760
say that I was going to get that, but nothing

1329
01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:20,000
happened to me. And philix sins will respond to that, well, yes,

1330
01:31:20,119 --> 01:31:23,079
because you don't have faith. You don't have faith, so

1331
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:26,720
the way you observe the Euchrist, that's just mere bread

1332
01:31:26,760 --> 01:31:29,880
and wine. But if you had faith. Right, the mode

1333
01:31:29,960 --> 01:31:33,039
which the Euchrist will exist via those who have faith

1334
01:31:33,920 --> 01:31:36,439
is that it will really be the body and blood

1335
01:31:36,479 --> 01:31:41,359
of Christ. Now, this in a sense makes some sense,

1336
01:31:41,880 --> 01:31:43,840
but the problem is that if you apply this to

1337
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:45,960
Christ then there are some problems. Right. For example, if

1338
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:48,920
you don't have faith, then is Christ God? And this

1339
01:31:49,119 --> 01:31:52,520
kind of makes people make enables a question to be

1340
01:31:52,640 --> 01:31:57,159
asked to philixins and leads to certain rabbit holes. That's

1341
01:31:57,399 --> 01:32:01,520
pilix Sinnis himself will reject, but his understanding of being

1342
01:32:01,600 --> 01:32:04,119
by nature and being by faith, and there's kind of

1343
01:32:04,239 --> 01:32:09,000
two levels, two modes of being, enables problematic conclusions. So

1344
01:32:09,159 --> 01:32:12,720
the argument I'm making here is that if the Euchrist

1345
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:16,039
changes depending on how you view the Eucharist, then naturally,

1346
01:32:16,119 --> 01:32:19,079
by that logic, Christ should be changing depending on how

1347
01:32:19,199 --> 01:32:21,279
you view Christ. Right, So if you look at the

1348
01:32:21,279 --> 01:32:26,199
Euchrist without faith, obviously Philoxenus will say, well, obviously as

1349
01:32:26,239 --> 01:32:29,399
bread and wine. But if you have faith, that will

1350
01:32:29,399 --> 01:32:31,239
be the body blood of Christ. So if Christ was

1351
01:32:31,359 --> 01:32:35,199
in front of us, will Christ will be? Will he

1352
01:32:35,319 --> 01:32:38,000
be a mere human being? If I didn't have faith? Well,

1353
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:41,800
this this is some kind of like a relativistic understanding

1354
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:46,359
of reality and to finance. This is kind of like

1355
01:32:46,439 --> 01:32:50,159
the end. But I would like to talk about Jacob

1356
01:32:50,199 --> 01:32:53,319
of sarug who's by the way to a as a

1357
01:32:53,399 --> 01:32:55,840
small as side. He is in the two thousand and

1358
01:32:55,880 --> 01:32:58,479
four Roman Martyrology, so he's a saint in the Latin

1359
01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:03,720
rights as well. So good job in Roman Catholics. But

1360
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:07,279
and he's an anticocatoon right, he wasn't in communion with

1361
01:33:07,439 --> 01:33:11,039
Orthodox Church. So there's some really problematic things that Jacob says.

1362
01:33:11,079 --> 01:33:15,119
I'm going to list some of them in Harmony fifty three.

1363
01:33:16,119 --> 01:33:20,479
He says that the disciples ask Jesus. He's talking about Judas, right,

1364
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:23,760
the disciples ask Jesus, who has gone out of the

1365
01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:26,680
sphere of the sphere of the light of our Lord

1366
01:33:27,039 --> 01:33:29,199
to go and mix with the darkness in a great,

1367
01:33:29,239 --> 01:33:32,479
great movement. So there are multiple senses in mixture is used.

1368
01:33:33,159 --> 01:33:38,039
And most of the time, if you're talking about philoxiniesen Severus,

1369
01:33:38,079 --> 01:33:40,560
when they speak of a mixture, they don't mean it

1370
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:42,800
in a heterodox sense, right, They don't really mean it

1371
01:33:42,880 --> 01:33:46,439
in a heterodox sense. It's they're limited by their own terminology.

1372
01:33:47,279 --> 01:33:51,640
But Jacob, in that sense, when he's speaking of Judas's

1373
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:54,880
essence mixing with the darkness. He is first of all,

1374
01:33:55,039 --> 01:33:57,720
saying that evil has a real existence, that it's not

1375
01:33:57,800 --> 01:34:00,960
a mere privation, but it actually exists. But at the

1376
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:04,000
same time, Judas is essence mixed with evil, and that's

1377
01:34:04,520 --> 01:34:09,199
and this is actually a Gnostic idea that Jacob uses.

1378
01:34:09,600 --> 01:34:11,680
And as a matter of fact, like I'm not going

1379
01:34:11,760 --> 01:34:14,840
to talk about every single nasticizing thing that Jacob says,

1380
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:18,119
but if you read the book ROBERTA. Chestnuts Treatment off

1381
01:34:18,159 --> 01:34:23,199
side Christologist Severus of Antioch, Felixus of madbook Jacob of Sarrug,

1382
01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:26,159
if you read the section about Jacob of Surug, there's

1383
01:34:26,279 --> 01:34:29,319
many different things that are nasticizing. Does that mean that

1384
01:34:29,439 --> 01:34:32,600
he is gnostic? I don't think he is by intention,

1385
01:34:32,920 --> 01:34:35,319
but the stuff that he says has a lot of

1386
01:34:35,359 --> 01:34:39,520
gnostic messagery. So he refers to Christ, he refers to

1387
01:34:40,039 --> 01:34:44,119
the Mother of God, to Mary as as some sort

1388
01:34:44,119 --> 01:34:46,079
of an envelope, like he's some sort of like a

1389
01:34:46,199 --> 01:34:52,279
sacred secret envelope that is hidden from people and these

1390
01:34:52,359 --> 01:34:54,840
small minor gnostic teams. Again, so I won't say that

1391
01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:58,720
he's gnostic theologically speaking, but there's another.

1392
01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:02,800
Speaker 9: Thing that he says as it Severus or Jacob Jacob.

1393
01:35:03,039 --> 01:35:06,800
Speaker 1: I don't think Jacob is intentionally being gnostic, but a

1394
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:09,079
lot of the teams that he talks about is definitely

1395
01:35:09,239 --> 01:35:09,760
like I think.

1396
01:35:11,279 --> 01:35:13,960
Speaker 9: I mean, the crazy part about Severus that struck me

1397
01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:19,840
was the discussions about the uh, the unknowability of the

1398
01:35:19,920 --> 01:35:21,560
Father and that you have to have this sort of

1399
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:22,680
ascent in Christ.

1400
01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:24,560
Speaker 7: And then this is the.

1401
01:35:24,920 --> 01:35:28,439
Speaker 9: Neoplotonic doctrine of a cent actually of emanation everything.

1402
01:35:29,439 --> 01:35:32,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, in Letters sixty five he actually talks about how

1403
01:35:32,159 --> 01:35:35,159
the sun is. I believe this is cited in the

1404
01:35:35,239 --> 01:35:38,920
Chestnut book as well. In Letters sixty five, Syrus talks

1405
01:35:38,960 --> 01:35:42,760
about how Christ is the object of the contemplation of

1406
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:46,199
the Father. So there's some aspect of logos theology here,

1407
01:35:46,359 --> 01:35:50,079
like world logos theology. But it's also the same thing

1408
01:35:50,159 --> 01:35:51,800
that Arian said, right, I mean, and a lot of

1409
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:56,119
gnostics said to justify the createdness of Christ again, and yeah,

1410
01:35:56,199 --> 01:35:58,479
that team also exists in Serius, and again it's in

1411
01:35:58,560 --> 01:36:02,319
Letters sixty five. Very it's it's a long letter where

1412
01:36:02,359 --> 01:36:06,039
he deals with multiple questions. Some of them are triological questions,

1413
01:36:06,079 --> 01:36:09,000
some of them are dealing with theopaschism. Some of them

1414
01:36:09,039 --> 01:36:12,520
are dealing with other theological stuff. But I believe in

1415
01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:16,680
the first part he kind of talks about that that

1416
01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:19,279
Christ is the object of the contemplation of that. Does it?

1417
01:36:19,359 --> 01:36:22,000
Don't the Roman Catholic say the same thing? Or am

1418
01:36:22,039 --> 01:36:22,760
I wrong? Good day?

1419
01:36:23,199 --> 01:36:24,439
Speaker 9: How did you phrase it? Say it again?

1420
01:36:26,640 --> 01:36:31,359
Speaker 1: The Chestnut book speaks of Christ being the object of

1421
01:36:31,479 --> 01:36:34,520
the contemplation of the Father, so he is the object

1422
01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:35,960
of Father's contemplation.

1423
01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:42,800
Speaker 9: Sometimes that's in some of the logos apologist speak this way.

1424
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:46,119
I think Tretoline speaks that way there. Some of that

1425
01:36:46,239 --> 01:36:48,000
could be in the Cappa Docians off the top of

1426
01:36:48,039 --> 01:36:54,640
my head, but yeah, we have I have to look

1427
01:36:54,640 --> 01:36:57,560
at the actual texts. But it depends. So maybe not

1428
01:36:57,720 --> 01:37:00,439
that terminology itself, because you could find and some of that,

1429
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:04,800
and the early apologists will make usage of that, but

1430
01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:06,720
then they sort of make a lot of mistakes. People

1431
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:08,600
like tation and people like that, So we have to

1432
01:37:08,640 --> 01:37:10,399
be really careful that or have to see the exact

1433
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:15,079
the way that they do appropriate the psychological analogy of

1434
01:37:15,199 --> 01:37:18,840
mind and will the father mind will breath. This kind

1435
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:21,319
of stuff is pretty common even in the Eastern Fathers

1436
01:37:22,079 --> 01:37:25,000
but the problem is that they still couch it within

1437
01:37:25,720 --> 01:37:30,600
the context of Orthodox theology and Christology, whereas in Roman Catholicism,

1438
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:33,520
or in what we're seeing here, because you get a

1439
01:37:33,680 --> 01:37:38,000
and oftentimes a smushing of nature into person, of properties

1440
01:37:38,039 --> 01:37:41,520
into essence, of energy into essence. That's where it starts

1441
01:37:41,520 --> 01:37:45,439
to become problematic because now we're getting we're confusing the

1442
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:48,560
energies of the Godhead with the persons. Right, So the

1443
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:51,560
Spirit is the love of God in a strict identity.

1444
01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:55,960
You see, the logos is quite literally the reason of

1445
01:37:56,000 --> 01:37:58,600
the Father and not the manifestation of the reason of

1446
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:01,920
the Godhead. Because reason, if we're talking to the divine

1447
01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:04,520
mind here. Okay, mind is a property of nature. So

1448
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:09,840
all three hypostases possess the divine mind. So the Son,

1449
01:38:10,079 --> 01:38:14,000
in a unique mode manifest He manifests in his unique

1450
01:38:14,039 --> 01:38:16,479
mode the mind of God, as does the Spirit, and

1451
01:38:16,560 --> 01:38:20,000
as does the Father. But we wouldn't identify the logos

1452
01:38:20,079 --> 01:38:22,760
with the mind of God in a strict identification. Does

1453
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:24,720
that make sense? So you see the same problem here

1454
01:38:24,880 --> 01:38:27,039
is just once again in a lot of these errors

1455
01:38:27,079 --> 01:38:29,199
and heresies, whether it's Roman Catholics and whether it's these

1456
01:38:29,239 --> 01:38:36,079
guys the mistake is to reduce essences or natures, or

1457
01:38:36,279 --> 01:38:41,039
beings or persons to their properties or to their faculties.

1458
01:38:43,319 --> 01:38:45,800
Speaker 1: All right, And the final thing that I was going

1459
01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:51,359
to add is is about another concept that Jacob speaks.

1460
01:38:51,399 --> 01:38:55,079
This is very interesting because he says, I believe thiss.

1461
01:38:55,079 --> 01:38:59,119
In Hobbily one twenty five, he says, before the created things,

1462
01:38:59,199 --> 01:39:01,960
the father sealed the image of his son, and ford

1463
01:39:02,199 --> 01:39:04,520
formed him and showed how he will shine among the

1464
01:39:04,600 --> 01:39:07,439
earthly beings. The father looked at the image of his

1465
01:39:07,600 --> 01:39:11,359
son and formed Adam. Because of this, he said, he said,

1466
01:39:11,479 --> 01:39:14,000
let us make man in our image, in this image

1467
01:39:14,039 --> 01:39:16,680
of the child of Mary, the only begone. So we

1468
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:18,439
will say that we have made an image of God.

1469
01:39:18,520 --> 01:39:22,640
But Jacob actually Harmly hundred and twenty five is saying

1470
01:39:22,680 --> 01:39:25,279
that we're made in the image of Christ. We particularly

1471
01:39:25,359 --> 01:39:28,880
made the image of the incarnate Christ. So God sees

1472
01:39:28,960 --> 01:39:32,079
the future, sees the Christ, and sees Christ in the

1473
01:39:32,199 --> 01:39:37,520
future and forms your image based on him. And I

1474
01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:39,600
would say this is interesting, but it also denies that

1475
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:41,600
we're made in the image of the triune grad. So

1476
01:39:41,680 --> 01:39:47,560
this has a huge problem in the theologist. Jacob and

1477
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:52,840
I will say this all of this stuff will be

1478
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:54,920
pretty hard for me to recap. But all of this

1479
01:39:55,000 --> 01:39:58,680
stuff is pretty much what I had to talk about today,

1480
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:01,520
unless you have something else to add in, something else

1481
01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:04,359
that you want me to talk about, which we can

1482
01:40:04,560 --> 01:40:05,880
or if we could go to the super chants. What

1483
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:06,439
do you say, Jay?

1484
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:09,439
Speaker 9: Yeah, I want to remind you by that if you

1485
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:12,920
want more on this, you can subscribe to David's channel.

1486
01:40:13,399 --> 01:40:16,760
He has a really extensive analysis in his most recent

1487
01:40:17,800 --> 01:40:21,199
three part series of these issues. I would again stress that,

1488
01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:24,119
so if you do have Got History Dialectic, Volume one,

1489
01:40:25,119 --> 01:40:28,199
this discussion of what we're talking about takes place on

1490
01:40:28,319 --> 01:40:32,880
about page two twenty five, roughly up to the end

1491
01:40:32,920 --> 01:40:36,600
of the book, where he talks about these faculties and

1492
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:40,359
these energies and these wills being in opposition. But that

1493
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:43,880
is a pretty advanced approach if you're new to this topic.

1494
01:40:44,039 --> 01:40:46,720
I want to stress that the place to begin the

1495
01:40:46,800 --> 01:40:50,039
Christological debates, I wouldn't even say jump to Pope Saint

1496
01:40:50,119 --> 01:40:54,319
Leo's tome. It helps to have this in your mind.

1497
01:40:54,359 --> 01:40:57,640
This is the best introduction to the issues and the

1498
01:40:57,680 --> 01:41:02,680
debates within the storia is because Arianism and Astorianism kick

1499
01:41:02,840 --> 01:41:06,439
off the problems that David is talking about, right, because

1500
01:41:06,479 --> 01:41:10,560
it's Cyril who will use the miaphysis formula, which we

1501
01:41:10,640 --> 01:41:13,600
would read in an orthodox way to mean not a

1502
01:41:13,720 --> 01:41:16,800
denial of the retaining of the two properties of the

1503
01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:22,520
two natures. I would also recommend after the Syrial book,

1504
01:41:22,960 --> 01:41:25,760
or you could start with this one, please read the

1505
01:41:25,840 --> 01:41:27,640
Bradshaw book if you really want to get into these

1506
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:29,920
topics and read the whole book. Don't read the first

1507
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:32,720
half of it just about Aristotle, because he will get

1508
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:39,439
up into the conclusions of these issues, all the way

1509
01:41:39,520 --> 01:41:44,800
into Augustine and into Aquinas and the contrasting of Palamas

1510
01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:49,239
and Aquinas, and the contrasting of Saint Maximus in terms

1511
01:41:49,279 --> 01:41:51,319
of the logos and the logi, and how that's not

1512
01:41:51,479 --> 01:41:53,359
the same thing as what you get in the Latin tradition.

1513
01:41:54,319 --> 01:41:58,479
Bradshaw one of the authorities on these topics, right, He's

1514
01:41:59,399 --> 01:42:02,279
everything you've ever heard me say is really just echoing

1515
01:42:02,319 --> 01:42:05,600
what Bradshaw has said. And Bradshaw is going to vindicate

1516
01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:08,000
all the stuff that David just said. Now he's not

1517
01:42:08,119 --> 01:42:10,199
talking about the oriental issues. But what I'm trying to

1518
01:42:10,239 --> 01:42:14,399
tell you is that the philosophical assumptions that underlie the

1519
01:42:14,479 --> 01:42:17,880
debate of all the Orientals in the Monophysite blah blah blah,

1520
01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:19,720
all that stuff up into the Mono Thelites and the

1521
01:42:19,760 --> 01:42:23,399
Mono Innergists is the same philosophical assumptions that this book

1522
01:42:23,479 --> 01:42:26,520
is about, all the way up into Severus. So these

1523
01:42:26,560 --> 01:42:29,880
are crucial texts. They're very key. And if you read

1524
01:42:29,920 --> 01:42:32,680
these texts and you understand them, I highly recommend it.

1525
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:36,520
Please read the David Bradshaw book. The Frail book is great,

1526
01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:39,199
but it's a little more advanced, right, And if you

1527
01:42:39,239 --> 01:42:41,560
don't want to go into that, just read the Dispute

1528
01:42:41,600 --> 01:42:43,960
with Purists. You'll see all the stuff that you've heard

1529
01:42:44,079 --> 01:42:46,520
me say for all these years, all this stuff I

1530
01:42:46,640 --> 01:42:50,000
constantly repeat. I mean, it's all right here. I'm not

1531
01:42:50,119 --> 01:42:52,399
making this stuff up. I mean, David, let me ask

1532
01:42:52,439 --> 01:42:56,000
you a question. So a year ago, when you and

1533
01:42:56,079 --> 01:42:58,039
I started interacting a lot on my discord and we

1534
01:42:58,119 --> 01:43:00,359
were having a lot of these discussions. I'm not just

1535
01:43:00,439 --> 01:43:02,119
trying to tellt myself, but I wanted to get your

1536
01:43:03,359 --> 01:43:07,199
account of this. Now that you have doved, dived, diven,

1537
01:43:08,079 --> 01:43:12,079
you've jumped into this issue for the last year, would

1538
01:43:12,119 --> 01:43:15,720
you say that you see the symphony of the topics

1539
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:19,000
that I originally was arguing with you, not that you

1540
01:43:19,079 --> 01:43:21,920
were disagreeing, but trying to explain to you a year ago.

1541
01:43:22,279 --> 01:43:24,600
Does it not seem to cohere? Do the issues not

1542
01:43:24,720 --> 01:43:28,159
make sense? Does it not? Does it not make sense?

1543
01:43:28,239 --> 01:43:32,479
Speaker 1: Now? Obviously it does. I mean one of the first

1544
01:43:32,600 --> 01:43:34,800
I could give you an example when it came to

1545
01:43:34,920 --> 01:43:37,680
the essence and ES's distinction. A mistake I made, for example,

1546
01:43:37,880 --> 01:43:39,880
is that I looked at like the issue so much

1547
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:44,159
how to mine essence energies distinction the fathers. But once

1548
01:43:44,239 --> 01:43:47,479
you read the Fathers, for example, the principle, you talk

1549
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:52,319
a lot about distinction, not meaning composition or division. I

1550
01:43:52,479 --> 01:43:56,520
see it in any like in Christology regularly right as

1551
01:43:56,600 --> 01:43:59,479
opposed to the things you talk about or the things

1552
01:43:59,560 --> 01:44:02,960
that the Orthodox Church fathers talk about. I don't see that,

1553
01:44:03,079 --> 01:44:06,000
for example, intomism. I don't see any toomism in the

1554
01:44:06,079 --> 01:44:08,359
Church Fathers. I do see a lot of the stuff

1555
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:10,279
that you told me you were talking about.

1556
01:44:10,720 --> 01:44:12,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, there's a whole section in here about how the

1557
01:44:13,119 --> 01:44:15,880
logi are not the same thing as Augustine's exemplars, and

1558
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:20,399
Augustine's exemplar doctrine passes directly into Thomas Aquinas. Yes, Thomas

1559
01:44:20,439 --> 01:44:24,399
Aquinas has differences with Augustine on the doctrine of illumination.

1560
01:44:24,479 --> 01:44:27,159
They have two different notions of divine illumination. It doesn't

1561
01:44:27,159 --> 01:44:29,399
really matter because the Doctor of simplicity is exactly the

1562
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:34,479
same and so therefore the exemplar doctrine of the Latin

1563
01:44:34,600 --> 01:44:36,920
Church is not the same thing as the Logi doctrine,

1564
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:40,159
and so therefore natural theology in the Tomistic sense is

1565
01:44:40,239 --> 01:44:42,880
not and cannot be the Orthodox position.

1566
01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:48,520
Speaker 1: Exactly. And what I was going to add, but I

1567
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:49,479
wanted to thank you, David.

1568
01:44:49,520 --> 01:44:54,159
Speaker 9: So let's now that you've dived into these issues, would

1569
01:44:54,199 --> 01:44:56,439
you agree Where would you start if you wanted to

1570
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:59,000
really research the topic, Like what have you found to

1571
01:44:59,079 --> 01:45:02,760
be the most kind of beneficial, advantageous.

1572
01:45:02,079 --> 01:45:09,079
Speaker 1: Works and in regards to Oriental like Anticulcidonian theology, Okay,

1573
01:45:09,199 --> 01:45:12,520
in terms of disputing like in terms of disputes, obviously,

1574
01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:14,279
start with the Father and McCain book. That's what I

1575
01:45:14,359 --> 01:45:18,600
started with. After reading that, I think I read God

1576
01:45:18,720 --> 01:45:22,119
History Dialected to get more scope, but it's kind of unrelated.

1577
01:45:22,159 --> 01:45:24,600
A lot of arguments that I got is from God

1578
01:45:24,720 --> 01:45:28,520
History Dialected. But I will say, it depends on what

1579
01:45:28,680 --> 01:45:31,239
you're worried about. So for example, if you want to

1580
01:45:32,199 --> 01:45:35,520
if you're worried about specific points, like in my case,

1581
01:45:36,319 --> 01:45:39,119
when I start to understand Orthodox theology a lot more,

1582
01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:42,359
what I did, for example, is that I looked into

1583
01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:45,279
certain characters like Theodore It of Cyrus. For example, I

1584
01:45:45,399 --> 01:45:48,920
read Ernistus by Theodore It of Cyrus, and that really

1585
01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:51,640
helped me a lot, because I saw the things that

1586
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:54,119
Saint kill said in him, and it really helped me

1587
01:45:54,159 --> 01:45:57,039
a lot. If you want like direct, if you want

1588
01:45:57,079 --> 01:46:02,079
diaphysicism in the Church Fathers and this currently Calcadonian argumentation,

1589
01:46:02,399 --> 01:46:04,960
I will recommend you to check out Leonti's of Jerusalems

1590
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:06,960
against them onoph Sizes. I did a book review of

1591
01:46:07,079 --> 01:46:10,800
that in part three of the of the video series.

1592
01:46:12,399 --> 01:46:15,399
If you want to understand sever in theology like what

1593
01:46:15,600 --> 01:46:18,239
Servus himself says, I think you can go to first

1594
01:46:18,279 --> 01:46:22,199
hand sources if you understand the terminology. So the best

1595
01:46:22,239 --> 01:46:24,239
book you can get is that Robert the Chestnut book

1596
01:46:24,279 --> 01:46:26,960
The trem on off site Christologies. You can get Serrus

1597
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:31,640
of Antioch book on Servius of Antioch by Paulin Allen.

1598
01:46:31,640 --> 01:46:34,600
If you want to read him directly. If you want

1599
01:46:34,680 --> 01:46:37,960
to read about the Council of Kalkadon, I would have

1600
01:46:38,079 --> 01:46:41,600
said the Defense of the Kalkadon the Defense of the

1601
01:46:41,640 --> 01:46:43,840
Council of Calculu in the East by Patrick Gray will

1602
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:47,359
be great. The problem is there's only like three books

1603
01:46:47,399 --> 01:46:50,399
available online and the cheapest one is like seventy seven dollars,

1604
01:46:50,439 --> 01:46:52,880
so I don't think that's possible. That's why I'm probably

1605
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:56,720
going to try the book review of that sometime. But

1606
01:46:57,520 --> 01:46:59,279
if you want to read about the Counts of Calculu,

1607
01:46:59,319 --> 01:47:01,239
you can read the Acts of the Council of Kalkadon.

1608
01:47:03,399 --> 01:47:06,000
And oh yeah, there's also I didn't read it yet,

1609
01:47:06,640 --> 01:47:10,600
but I think The Byzantine Christ by Demetrius Patrellos is

1610
01:47:10,640 --> 01:47:15,319
also relevant to this basically any any if you look

1611
01:47:15,359 --> 01:47:18,279
at my announcement stream, I cite all of the books

1612
01:47:18,319 --> 01:47:21,119
that I read and I will be using in in

1613
01:47:21,279 --> 01:47:23,640
the in the future, in the future videos I will

1614
01:47:23,680 --> 01:47:25,960
be making, which I made like all of them basically

1615
01:47:26,079 --> 01:47:30,159
right now, including this one. Those books are what you

1616
01:47:30,359 --> 01:47:33,399
should be looking for, I think, and it's very important

1617
01:47:33,439 --> 01:47:40,039
to understand these clearly Culcadonian theology and theological theological points

1618
01:47:40,079 --> 01:47:42,680
because it will help, It will actually change the debate

1619
01:47:42,800 --> 01:47:45,279
for you. For me, the first time I heard arguments,

1620
01:47:46,079 --> 01:47:50,399
I thought they meant nature is is Ussia, and that's

1621
01:47:50,439 --> 01:47:52,359
what I kind of I was kind of complacent. I

1622
01:47:52,520 --> 01:47:55,199
was like, oh, you know, it's so silly that they

1623
01:47:55,239 --> 01:47:57,680
will believe that Cristi is only divide haha. And then

1624
01:47:58,520 --> 01:48:03,560
understanding these things, understand this debate, help me really get

1625
01:48:03,640 --> 01:48:07,119
the debate. And that's the best thing you can do,

1626
01:48:07,760 --> 01:48:11,520
because many people, except for me and Jay, I think

1627
01:48:11,680 --> 01:48:14,600
like they won't really be helpful in this regard. There

1628
01:48:14,680 --> 01:48:19,720
you will either hear like arguments that are that are

1629
01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:24,359
straw men that don't represent the oriental position will or

1630
01:48:24,479 --> 01:48:27,000
you will hear arguments saying, oh, be actually believe the

1631
01:48:27,039 --> 01:48:29,359
same thing. So basically two groups of people that don't

1632
01:48:29,359 --> 01:48:32,520
really understand what's going on will say all of this stuff.

1633
01:48:33,079 --> 01:48:36,039
And so the books that I mentioned in parts here,

1634
01:48:36,159 --> 01:48:40,119
ultimately you should read all of them, I think, but

1635
01:48:40,279 --> 01:48:43,359
if you want in order, if you're like completely, if

1636
01:48:43,439 --> 01:48:46,840
you don't have any knowledge, the Alexandra book by far

1637
01:48:46,920 --> 01:48:52,920
John McGuckin is great. And then I will say for me,

1638
01:48:53,079 --> 01:48:56,640
I mean the Goddess to Dialectic book was really it

1639
01:48:56,760 --> 01:48:59,439
wasn't as advanced as I think it will be. I

1640
01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:01,800
kind of understood a lot of this stuff, but maybe

1641
01:49:01,920 --> 01:49:04,880
that's because I kind of expected some of the stuff

1642
01:49:04,920 --> 01:49:06,520
to be said there, old lady. But I think that

1643
01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:10,239
will also like, because if you don't understand general Christology,

1644
01:49:11,119 --> 01:49:14,920
you're going to have a very hard time read getting

1645
01:49:14,960 --> 01:49:17,680
some of the arguments that many for Saints make. Now

1646
01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:19,720
let's say, yes, book would be great.

1647
01:49:19,840 --> 01:49:23,039
Speaker 9: Yeah, I would say if you want a introduction to

1648
01:49:23,560 --> 01:49:26,119
the bigger picture here, And I'm thinking about doing a

1649
01:49:26,279 --> 01:49:29,760
lecture just on this because I found my old notes.

1650
01:49:29,840 --> 01:49:32,079
I took about one hundred pages of notes ten years

1651
01:49:32,119 --> 01:49:37,399
ago on multiple works that relate to this topic. So

1652
01:49:37,439 --> 01:49:40,960
I actually have a whole folder here. It's just nothing

1653
01:49:41,039 --> 01:49:43,600
but my one hundred pages of notes that I took

1654
01:49:43,720 --> 01:49:49,640
on the Pelicon series. The Pelicon series is great, so

1655
01:49:49,960 --> 01:49:54,039
it covers we're mainly only concerned with like the first

1656
01:49:54,199 --> 01:49:56,439
you know, thousand years and then into the Middle Ages,

1657
01:49:56,479 --> 01:49:59,640
so we're not really concerned with modern Protestantism in modern theology.

1658
01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:02,319
The two in this it's a five volume series, but

1659
01:50:02,439 --> 01:50:04,319
the first three of the Pelicons that are really good.

1660
01:50:04,840 --> 01:50:06,920
So I think in the near future. We will also

1661
01:50:07,119 --> 01:50:10,840
do an analysis from one hundred pages of notes I took.

1662
01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:15,720
And then if somebody wants another, let's say I had

1663
01:50:15,760 --> 01:50:20,399
another introductory Yeah, another introductory book to these topics is

1664
01:50:20,479 --> 01:50:24,800
also Pelican's Christianity and Classical Culture, right, And so yes,

1665
01:50:24,920 --> 01:50:27,760
he will talk a lot about natural law. He will

1666
01:50:27,840 --> 01:50:31,039
talk a lot about the principles of nature, as does

1667
01:50:31,079 --> 01:50:33,840
Saint Maximus. But does that mean the same thing as Thomism, right,

1668
01:50:33,960 --> 01:50:36,119
So no, it's not word concept fallacy. So if you

1669
01:50:36,159 --> 01:50:40,239
want maybe a broader perspective to start with these topics,

1670
01:50:40,359 --> 01:50:42,600
these are the books that I would recommend. And then,

1671
01:50:42,640 --> 01:50:46,880
of course, don't forget the Saint Justinian himself has a

1672
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:48,960
great work on the person of Christ.

1673
01:50:50,279 --> 01:50:51,640
Speaker 1: Yes, that's actually a good point.

1674
01:50:53,079 --> 01:50:56,640
Speaker 9: So those are all are all good. And then let's

1675
01:50:56,680 --> 01:50:59,479
look at some of the super chats that.

1676
01:50:59,520 --> 01:50:59,960
Speaker 7: We have here.

1677
01:51:01,560 --> 01:51:05,239
Speaker 9: I got stacks of books falling over here. All right,

1678
01:51:05,319 --> 01:51:13,199
let's see we've got a few here. Robert Taylor five dollars,

1679
01:51:13,720 --> 01:51:17,640
not the previous Robert Taylor, the different Robert Taylor. I

1680
01:51:17,720 --> 01:51:21,439
read the Hoffman's Cult Renaissance Church of Rome, and he

1681
01:51:21,560 --> 01:51:25,399
complements orthodox ecclesiology and iconography yeah, well, this is the

1682
01:51:26,840 --> 01:51:29,920
ecclesiology and iconography of the first millennium is what you

1683
01:51:30,000 --> 01:51:32,720
see in the Seventh Ecumenical Council. So actually, if you

1684
01:51:32,800 --> 01:51:36,840
read the Sonoticon of Orthodoxy, it's a great refutation of

1685
01:51:37,359 --> 01:51:42,279
seeing how the Roman Catholic Church canonically departed from what

1686
01:51:42,439 --> 01:51:45,720
we have in the Seventh Synod. And again, somebody should

1687
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:50,439
find out if Uniates affirm the Sonoticon, because that would

1688
01:51:50,439 --> 01:51:52,960
be another great argument if I can find this out.

1689
01:51:53,720 --> 01:51:56,880
If Uniates do affirm the Sonoticon of Orthodoxy from the

1690
01:51:56,920 --> 01:52:02,119
Seventh Synod, then yeah, that's just one of many, many

1691
01:52:02,319 --> 01:52:06,399
Roman Catholic contradictions. But yes, I do think occult Renaissance

1692
01:52:06,439 --> 01:52:09,159
stretch of Rome showed me a lot of things that

1693
01:52:09,239 --> 01:52:11,199
I missed about the Renaissance. So it's a really good

1694
01:52:11,239 --> 01:52:17,880
analysis of the second millennium. His severe lack, of course,

1695
01:52:18,159 --> 01:52:22,920
is not knowing about the first millennium, as is unfortunately

1696
01:52:22,960 --> 01:52:27,520
the case with many Roman Catholics. So he says blessed Lin,

1697
01:52:28,720 --> 01:52:32,119
and he is citing the book saying Rome defected in

1698
01:52:32,199 --> 01:52:35,640
the thirteenth century. Yeah. I mean, you could have different

1699
01:52:35,760 --> 01:52:38,239
arguments as to exactly where to pinpoint the date, because

1700
01:52:38,239 --> 01:52:42,119
it's more of a long flowering of a movement all

1701
01:52:42,119 --> 01:52:45,159
the way back to the time of Augustine. Again, I'm

1702
01:52:45,319 --> 01:52:49,159
really I'm tired of debating this issue. So read the

1703
01:52:49,199 --> 01:52:51,560
Bradshaw book. The chapter on Augustine is really good. It

1704
01:52:51,720 --> 01:52:54,920
just really solidifies it in a just a really clear

1705
01:52:55,000 --> 01:52:57,760
way in a brief chapter. So we shouldn't have to

1706
01:52:57,840 --> 01:53:00,119
keep debating these topics. It's pretty easy to understand if

1707
01:53:00,159 --> 01:53:03,760
you read these works. But so there's a development. It's

1708
01:53:03,800 --> 01:53:07,319
not necessarily we're not saying Gustin is evil. He made

1709
01:53:07,359 --> 01:53:10,079
some mistakes, as did Saint Gregor Nissa other people. Saint

1710
01:53:10,119 --> 01:53:13,319
Maximus correct mistakes and errors that sing Gregor Nissa made,

1711
01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:16,920
So there's nothing wrong with us. We don't follow one dude.

1712
01:53:17,000 --> 01:53:23,199
We follow the consensum, consensus, patrum right consensus of the fathers.

1713
01:53:23,880 --> 01:53:27,560
So I would say, go easy, don't rush into these topics,

1714
01:53:27,680 --> 01:53:31,039
take your time, it'll become evident. And yes, there is

1715
01:53:31,079 --> 01:53:33,960
a good historical critique of the Renaissance in that book.

1716
01:53:35,039 --> 01:53:37,680
Franklin Chan nineteen ninety nine. Thank you for all your work, Jay,

1717
01:53:37,720 --> 01:53:39,399
and thank you for your great guest.

1718
01:53:39,479 --> 01:53:39,560
Speaker 4: Well.

1719
01:53:39,760 --> 01:53:42,079
Speaker 9: Yes, David has done a tremendous amount of work he

1720
01:53:42,199 --> 01:53:45,520
has learned at a lightning speed the last year on

1721
01:53:45,680 --> 01:53:48,640
these topics. So definitely subscribe to David's channel down there

1722
01:53:49,000 --> 01:53:52,399
and you will get some based solid Christology there and

1723
01:53:52,560 --> 01:53:55,199
hopefully we can have I think David wants to. Is

1724
01:53:55,279 --> 01:53:56,560
trying to get a debate going?

1725
01:53:56,680 --> 01:53:56,760
Speaker 1: Right?

1726
01:53:56,840 --> 01:53:58,119
Speaker 9: Are you trying to get a debate with somebody?

1727
01:53:58,920 --> 01:54:01,840
Speaker 1: Yes, I just got a debate. If it's a person

1728
01:54:01,960 --> 01:54:08,159
on Twitter seven Zella's will be debating on Bright Saturday,

1729
01:54:08,359 --> 01:54:12,159
on Bright's Week. I decided to debate him because he

1730
01:54:12,319 --> 01:54:15,720
represents the position very well and I think he knows

1731
01:54:15,760 --> 01:54:18,720
his stuff, unlike many of the people in my part

1732
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:24,000
two I said, I declared a debate to Farrington, but

1733
01:54:24,159 --> 01:54:27,399
on Facebook he said stupid stuff like, oh, I studied

1734
01:54:27,439 --> 01:54:29,960
this stuff for thirty years and we believe in the

1735
01:54:30,000 --> 01:54:32,039
same thing. So I'm not taking seriously if he's going

1736
01:54:32,079 --> 01:54:35,000
to say stuff like that. But yeah, I'll have a

1737
01:54:35,079 --> 01:54:40,079
debate in two months about this exact issue, so tune

1738
01:54:40,119 --> 01:54:43,279
in for that. It's going to be great, all right.

1739
01:54:43,359 --> 01:54:45,359
Speaker 9: EML says for ten dollars, Thank you, by the way,

1740
01:54:45,359 --> 01:54:49,199
Franklin for that. I'm much appreciated. mL says for ten dollars.

1741
01:54:49,720 --> 01:54:53,560
In the disputation with Puis, I think it's paragraph four

1742
01:54:54,840 --> 01:54:58,560
Maximus claims that the distinctions in Christ are effectively virtual.

1743
01:54:59,159 --> 01:55:01,079
I don't have book in front of me, but I've

1744
01:55:01,079 --> 01:55:03,199
struggled with that. Well, this is just similar to the

1745
01:55:03,319 --> 01:55:07,880
notion that that we've talked about in the past, with

1746
01:55:08,159 --> 01:55:11,000
Saint Cyril saying the same thing. He's just echoing. And

1747
01:55:11,119 --> 01:55:13,319
this is a response to people who think that because

1748
01:55:13,359 --> 01:55:17,680
you make a distinction, that therefore it's a division. So again,

1749
01:55:18,079 --> 01:55:22,199
remember the dictum that making distinctions does not entail composition

1750
01:55:22,359 --> 01:55:26,319
or division. Sometimes a distinction might entail composition. For example,

1751
01:55:26,359 --> 01:55:29,119
we make a distinction between body and soul and humans.

1752
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:32,359
In humans, body and soul is composite. Right, It is

1753
01:55:32,479 --> 01:55:35,720
a composite thing because it's a creation that is brought

1754
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:37,680
together when God creates us. Right, we have a body,

1755
01:55:37,720 --> 01:55:41,479
we have a soul, and so in humans, though in

1756
01:55:41,600 --> 01:55:45,000
the way that we actually are, it's uniteed. Right, the

1757
01:55:45,079 --> 01:55:47,880
body suffuses the soul, the soul suffuses the body. In

1758
01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:50,520
the argumentation of many of the Church fathers. So when

1759
01:55:50,560 --> 01:55:53,920
we talk about making a distinction, right, and we say

1760
01:55:53,960 --> 01:55:56,960
that it's a virtual distinction, that doesn't mean that the

1761
01:55:57,000 --> 01:56:00,600
distinction isn't also real. It's in the context of in

1762
01:56:00,760 --> 01:56:04,399
theology making the distinction, right. Saint John Damascus makes the

1763
01:56:04,439 --> 01:56:06,920
same argument in the Exposition of Orthodox Faith, where he

1764
01:56:06,920 --> 01:56:10,159
says that just because we make a virtual distinction does

1765
01:56:10,239 --> 01:56:12,720
not mean that we make a division. It also doesn't

1766
01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:16,680
mean that there isn't a real distinction. Right, So you

1767
01:56:16,800 --> 01:56:19,399
can say both that there's a virtual distinction and a

1768
01:56:19,479 --> 01:56:20,119
real distinction.

1769
01:56:21,960 --> 01:56:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Can I add something on that show.

1770
01:56:24,000 --> 01:56:26,359
Speaker 9: I'm gonna pull up the paragraph that he that he's mentioning,

1771
01:56:26,399 --> 01:56:26,840
but go ahead.

1772
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. This is relevant with Saint Curle when he's

1773
01:56:30,760 --> 01:56:34,319
talking about like the two nature into Nature's formula being acceptable.

1774
01:56:34,399 --> 01:56:36,520
So for Saint Kurle, for example, if you make a

1775
01:56:36,640 --> 01:56:40,680
distinction in concrete, it leads to Nestorianism because you're making

1776
01:56:40,720 --> 01:56:44,039
a concrete distinction and you're separating them, right, And so

1777
01:56:44,159 --> 01:56:47,520
he says that we make this distinction in according to

1778
01:56:47,520 --> 01:56:49,319
the eyes of the soul. Now, this doesn't mean a

1779
01:56:49,399 --> 01:56:53,359
mere conceptual distinction inside our heads. This is still based

1780
01:56:53,439 --> 01:56:57,920
on reality, but it is the wavy understanding distinction is

1781
01:56:57,960 --> 01:57:00,479
what is highlighted here, and this is exactly what the

1782
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:03,239
Kalcadonian definition. Boy, it does when they say that Christ

1783
01:57:03,359 --> 01:57:06,640
is into natures, it says according to the intellect, which

1784
01:57:06,640 --> 01:57:08,960
is exactly what Saint Chrios is in his second letter

1785
01:57:09,039 --> 01:57:13,560
to Seqensis. So again, this claimed that Kalkadon believes in

1786
01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:17,640
this story in theology is patently false. It's absolutely yeah.

1787
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:20,640
Speaker 9: I mean, if you couldn't make distinctions after the incarnation,

1788
01:57:20,800 --> 01:57:22,760
which is what some of them argue, then you couldn't

1789
01:57:22,760 --> 01:57:26,000
have John Damascus having a whole chapter explaining what happens

1790
01:57:26,119 --> 01:57:29,600
in the descent of Christ into Hades, because he makes

1791
01:57:29,720 --> 01:57:34,239
all of these very precise distinctions about how the human

1792
01:57:34,520 --> 01:57:37,880
soul was severed from the human body and descended into Hades. Right,

1793
01:57:37,920 --> 01:57:39,840
Does that mean that he's dividing Christ? Of course not.

1794
01:57:40,840 --> 01:57:43,159
Is it a virtual distinction yes? Is it also a

1795
01:57:43,239 --> 01:57:45,720
real distinction, yes, So we don't have to set up

1796
01:57:45,760 --> 01:57:47,960
either oars as if there's only one or the others.

1797
01:57:48,000 --> 01:57:50,880
So I'll read one eighty four. Different actions have different effects,

1798
01:57:51,000 --> 01:57:54,119
not on one effect, as was demonstrated by the example

1799
01:57:54,199 --> 01:57:56,079
the sword being hardened by fire. If the operation of

1800
01:57:56,079 --> 01:57:58,800
the sword and that fire are mutually united. And yet

1801
01:57:58,840 --> 01:58:00,960
we observe that the fire's effect is burning the iron,

1802
01:58:01,520 --> 01:58:03,319
and the irons effect is cutting, even though they are

1803
01:58:03,359 --> 01:58:06,039
not distinguished in the burning cut or in the cutting burn,

1804
01:58:06,239 --> 01:58:08,199
just as the effect of heaven or earth. Then it

1805
01:58:08,319 --> 01:58:10,760
is not possible to say that there is one work

1806
01:58:10,920 --> 01:58:14,159
unless there is only one action. If thou has maintained

1807
01:58:14,199 --> 01:58:17,119
that the effect of one energy is several distinction distinct

1808
01:58:17,159 --> 01:58:20,520
works by Christ, then thou must maintain one action. Or

1809
01:58:20,560 --> 01:58:22,920
if thout is teach an innumerable number of actions, then

1810
01:58:22,960 --> 01:58:25,880
thou must also teach that the energies are innumerable. But

1811
01:58:25,960 --> 01:58:28,119
our inquiry is not about the works, whether we're discussing

1812
01:58:28,199 --> 01:58:32,560
things external to Christ, but about things within Christ himself.

1813
01:58:32,600 --> 01:58:34,520
That is to say, about the natural principles of the

1814
01:58:34,680 --> 01:58:38,279
essences of Christ, whether he remained defective from the union

1815
01:58:38,399 --> 01:58:40,560
or not. If he was defective, then it is possible

1816
01:58:40,640 --> 01:58:43,520
for a nature that is defective in a natural energy

1817
01:58:43,560 --> 01:58:46,359
to genuinely exist. If it is not defective, then the

1818
01:58:46,520 --> 01:58:48,840
energy is either understood to be a component or a

1819
01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:51,359
principle of the essence, or it is acquired from those

1820
01:58:51,399 --> 01:58:53,720
things external to him. If the energy is proper to

1821
01:58:53,880 --> 01:58:56,840
nature and it's not acquired from external sources, then it

1822
01:58:56,920 --> 01:59:00,800
is possible for nature to exist, then as possible either

1823
01:59:00,840 --> 01:59:02,680
for a nature that exists without actions or the converse

1824
01:59:02,720 --> 01:59:05,039
to be true. Nature can neither be conceived nor can

1825
01:59:05,159 --> 01:59:07,479
exist without energies proper to it. To believe this is

1826
01:59:07,479 --> 01:59:10,399
to believe that He operates in each nature naturally, and

1827
01:59:10,479 --> 01:59:14,119
that there are not natures that are altered thereby. So

1828
01:59:14,239 --> 01:59:16,399
I don't see unless it's in a footnote, it's not

1829
01:59:16,560 --> 01:59:22,279
one eighty four. But again just because don't think in

1830
01:59:23,319 --> 01:59:25,520
either ors. Just because he says there's a dis like

1831
01:59:25,760 --> 01:59:29,079
we would say that there's a nature person distinction in God. Right,

1832
01:59:29,359 --> 01:59:31,560
Does that mean we're dividing God because we make a

1833
01:59:31,600 --> 01:59:37,159
distinction between nature and person? No, And so after the incarnation,

1834
01:59:37,319 --> 01:59:42,560
can we still make conceptual distinctions about Christ? Absolutely? Does

1835
01:59:42,600 --> 01:59:46,119
the fact that there's conceptual distinctions mean that he's blended

1836
01:59:46,159 --> 01:59:48,840
in a monofsite sense and that there aren't two nature? Still? No,

1837
01:59:49,199 --> 01:59:54,479
because the union is hypostatic, it's hyposthetized. So hopefully that's helpful.

1838
01:59:54,800 --> 01:59:57,720
Let's see. But if you want to put in the chat,

1839
01:59:57,760 --> 01:59:59,560
because it's not one eighty four, if you want to

1840
01:59:59,560 --> 02:00:02,680
pick out the specific paragraph that you that you think

1841
02:00:03,439 --> 02:00:05,199
it might be in where you're talking about. I can

1842
02:00:05,239 --> 02:00:09,760
read that paragraph telegram five bucks. Can you set your

1843
02:00:09,800 --> 02:00:13,119
telegram to public? It's on private, nobody can find it,

1844
02:00:13,319 --> 02:00:16,600
including potential people interested in orthodoxy. Yeah, I'll have to

1845
02:00:16,640 --> 02:00:19,159
do that. I didn't realize it was private, So I'll

1846
02:00:19,199 --> 02:00:20,520
look in there and figure out how.

1847
02:00:20,399 --> 02:00:20,720
Speaker 5: To do that.

1848
02:00:22,119 --> 02:00:24,439
Speaker 9: All right, So those are the super chats. I don't

1849
02:00:24,439 --> 02:00:27,520
see if we got any more. We didn't have surprised

1850
02:00:27,520 --> 02:00:31,359
we didn't have orientals in here, like making arguments and claims.

1851
02:00:33,079 --> 02:00:35,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of expected then. But maybe they'll do

1852
02:00:35,880 --> 02:00:36,720
it on Facebook.

1853
02:00:36,960 --> 02:00:41,239
Speaker 9: Yeah, people nobody wants people. Yeah, people won't directly debate

1854
02:00:41,319 --> 02:00:43,159
or interact everything. Everything that has to do everything in

1855
02:00:43,239 --> 02:00:47,319
some sort of like passive aggressive shooting from the you know,

1856
02:00:47,680 --> 02:00:50,119
behind the screen. Like they won't just ever have a

1857
02:00:50,239 --> 02:00:51,520
full on discussion or debate.

1858
02:00:53,880 --> 02:00:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people offerate. That's why I decided

1859
02:00:56,760 --> 02:00:58,359
to do the debate, because I said, you know, this

1860
02:00:58,439 --> 02:01:00,479
is the only guy that does it, so I might

1861
02:01:00,520 --> 02:01:04,640
as well give him a chance and we'll I'll have

1862
02:01:04,720 --> 02:01:09,439
a debate about this topic in two months. Hopefully I'll

1863
02:01:09,479 --> 02:01:12,039
get a better performance. I'll give it the best performance

1864
02:01:12,039 --> 02:01:13,520
I can give during a debate. It's been a while

1865
02:01:13,560 --> 02:01:17,840
since I did that, but shamelessly plugging myself in here again.

1866
02:01:18,600 --> 02:01:20,319
If you like this stuff, if you want to see

1867
02:01:20,319 --> 02:01:24,039
more of it, you can always follow my channel. You

1868
02:01:24,119 --> 02:01:28,720
can again, if you're interested about Kolkada but you're not

1869
02:01:28,920 --> 02:01:32,039
really interested about diaphysicism in the Church Fathers, you can.

1870
02:01:32,319 --> 02:01:34,960
You don't have to watch the videos in a chronological order.

1871
02:01:35,039 --> 02:01:38,039
You can watch it anytime in any like. If you

1872
02:01:38,079 --> 02:01:39,960
want to watch part three first and then part two

1873
02:01:40,039 --> 02:01:44,000
and then part one, that's fine. That's fine. So yeah,

1874
02:01:44,119 --> 02:01:48,600
that's all I have to say. I think awesome.

1875
02:01:49,079 --> 02:01:51,720
Speaker 9: All right, thank you guys. We'll have another stream tonight.

1876
02:01:52,239 --> 02:01:55,079
Our friend Mark Hackard is coming back. We haven't talked

1877
02:01:55,119 --> 02:01:57,520
to Mark in a long time, and he's put out

1878
02:01:57,560 --> 02:02:00,920
some pretty bomb articles lately. One of them is out

1879
02:02:01,560 --> 02:02:05,960
on the Jeff stein Efry stuff. So we're gonna be

1880
02:02:06,000 --> 02:02:11,000
discussing that tonight, Espionage geopolitics with the expert Russia analyst

1881
02:02:11,119 --> 02:02:14,800
Mark Hackard, geopolitical commentator analysts. You've seen him on art

1882
02:02:14,920 --> 02:02:18,279
and other sites Sold the East and Mark is also

1883
02:02:18,359 --> 02:02:21,439
putting out a new article as well on the controversial

1884
02:02:21,520 --> 02:02:25,319
issue of Uribezmanov. How do we understand and take the

1885
02:02:26,279 --> 02:02:30,319
off sided. Uri Bezumanov talks, Well, we're gonna be looking

1886
02:02:30,399 --> 02:02:34,880
at that, We're gonna be looking at defectors, espionage, geopolitics

1887
02:02:35,239 --> 02:02:38,560
tonight when Mark Hackard joins me to discuss those topics.

1888
02:02:39,239 --> 02:02:42,479
And but you know, we're just crazy conspiracy theorists here.

1889
02:02:42,680 --> 02:02:46,960
We don't actually interview experts, people with graduate degrees in

1890
02:02:47,000 --> 02:02:50,479
these topics. You know, I didn't just write my master's thesis,

1891
02:02:50,920 --> 02:02:54,079
most of it on this topic. No, we're all just

1892
02:02:54,239 --> 02:02:57,199
crazy conspiracy theorists. We don't actually know what we're talking about.

1893
02:02:57,399 --> 02:02:59,840
There's no such thing as conspiracy. There's no espionage, there's

1894
02:02:59,880 --> 02:03:01,119
no I think none of this actually relates to the

1895
02:03:01,199 --> 02:03:04,479
Orthodox world, even though now everybody knows it in relationship

1896
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:08,079
to the Ukraine. In that situation, it's all fake, it's

1897
02:03:08,159 --> 02:03:13,960
not real, it doesn't exist, and we're just crazy conspiracy theorists, crazies. Well,

1898
02:03:14,079 --> 02:03:17,319
we're gonna get crazy tonight with Mark Hackard, So join

1899
02:03:17,399 --> 02:03:20,880
me tonight. I think about let's see eight or nine

1900
02:03:21,039 --> 02:03:23,680
Central somewhere in there. I'll have the show page up

1901
02:03:23,720 --> 02:03:25,319
here in a little bit. But thank you David, much

1902
02:03:25,359 --> 02:03:28,600
appreciate it. Thank you Jay all right, Everybody, have a

1903
02:03:28,600 --> 02:03:28,920
good night.