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No, we're not necessary void were 25 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:01.240 my low eighteen plus terms and conditions Plus says. 26 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.439 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 27 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:14.560 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 28 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:21.920 written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 29 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:25.640 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:30.280 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 31 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:42.640 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good evening. 32 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:47.040 Learn the terrifying truth behind the world's deadliest serial killers. 33 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:51.280 Serial Killers haunt our dreams and inspire the terrifying villains 34 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:54.280 of TV shows and horror movies. But how much do 35 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:58.000 you really know about the minds behind the world's deadliest killers? 36 00:01:58.519 --> 00:02:02.280 What drives these murderers to kill and kill again, and 37 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:05.200 what fuels our fascination with the true stories of their 38 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:11.039 horrific crimes. Now, forensic Psychologists, private investigator and crime writer 39 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:14.759 doctor Joni E. Johnston brings you the answers to these 40 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:18.680 questions and more. Serial Killers one hundred and one Questions 41 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:22.439 True Crime Fans Ask, dives into the case files of 42 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:26.719 the most infamous murders in history and answers the questions 43 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:30.919 true crime fans have been dying to ask. The book 44 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:34.319 that we're featuring this evening is Serial Killers one hundred 45 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:37.800 and one questions true crime fans ask with my special 46 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:42.039 guest journalists and author and doctor doctor Joni Johnston. Welcome 47 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:44.360 to the program, and thank you very much for this interview, 48 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:46.240 Doctor Jony Johnston. 49 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:47.560 Thank you so much. 50 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:47.759 Dan. 51 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:49.360 I am just delighted to be here. 52 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:51.800 I'm delighted to have you on. This is such a 53 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:55.520 fascinating book. First off, tell us a little bit more 54 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:59.599 about your background and how you came to want and 55 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:01.759 write this incredible book. 56 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:05.400 Well, I grew up with a mom who was, I guess, 57 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.439 a true crime buff before we even thought about true 58 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:11.080 crime buffs. She used to watch all those shows Mannics 59 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:15.080 and Ironside and Hawaii five O and all these shows, 60 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:17.360 and so I always watched her watch those that got 61 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:19.280 interested in that. And then when I was fourteen, we're 62 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:21.599 on a family vacation and I picked up the book 63 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:24.599 Helter Skelter, which is about Charles Manson and whose family, 64 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:28.000 and I just was, I don't know how to even 65 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:31.919 say it, like captivated by the story. I couldn't understand it. 66 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:34.039 Of course, I was horrified by it, and I was 67 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:37.280 also just intrigued in terms of why would somebody do 68 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:39.719 these things, especially to somebody that they don't even know. 69 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:43.159 And so I think that first piaqued my curiosity. And 70 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:45.120 then when I was a senior in high school, Ted 71 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:47.919 Bundy escaped from a prison in Colorado made its way 72 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:50.759 to FSU, which was about eighty miles from my house, 73 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:53.680 and I was around the same age at the time, 74 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:57.680 and so it was huge news and just horrifying to 75 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:01.599 the community. And I think that really solidified and turned 76 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:04.360 me from being somebody who would have always been interested in, 77 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:07.879 I think crime, into it, really becoming a profession and 78 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:09.280 deciding to go into it. 79 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:12.159 You say that you first worked right out of grad 80 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:16.560 school with victims of abuse and neglect, then later on 81 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:20.439 you worked at a maximum maximum security prison, So view 82 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:24.759 the entire gamut tell us a little bit about that experience, 83 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:27.920 but more so the parts of this book that you've 84 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.160 put together based on that experience. 85 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:33.319 I feel really fortunate that I've been able in my 86 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:37.399 career to work with both victims and family members of 87 00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:41.439 victims as well as perpetrators, because it really, I'm hoping, 88 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:44.720 has given me a well rounded perspective. So, yeah, I 89 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:47.560 started out my first year at a graduate school working 90 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:51.319 with families who had been court ordered into treatment for 91 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:55.519 some kinds of neglect, child abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, 92 00:04:55.800 --> 00:05:00.839 and really witness firsthand the devastation that that reeks on children, 93 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.959 also how resilient children are, all the things that can 94 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:08.079 make that trauma worse, things that can make that trauma better. 95 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:11.360 But it really was such a tough beginning in some 96 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:14.480 respects to my professional career, because it's one thing to 97 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:16.519 read about it or research it. It's another thing to 98 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:19.720 really witness it on a regular basis. And I think 99 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.800 there was a point in my early career when I 100 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:26.439 just would feel such anger and rage toward these perpetrators 101 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.800 who were doing these horrible things. And at the same time, 102 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:33.560 I remember sometimes Dan going to testify in termination of 103 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:36.279 parental rights trials, you know, where these kids are going 104 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:38.839 to be permanently removed, and I would just be, you know, 105 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:41.720 very passionate and a crusader about going and testifying. And 106 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:43.839 then I'd go and I would see this mom or 107 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:46.920 this dad, mainly a mom who looks like a baby herself. 108 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:49.199 You know, I'm going to be like, you know, I 109 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:51.439 would have all this this all these feelings and this 110 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:52.959 anger and stuff, and you know, I would kind of 111 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:54.759 be like, where do I direct this? Because you can 112 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:58.839 see the kind of multi generational patterns of dysfunction and 113 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.720 violence and abused kind of kind of handed down. So 114 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:03.920 I do think sometimes, like I said, it was such 115 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:06.319 a blessing in a way to be able to witness 116 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:11.360 that side of crime and the very personal side of crime. 117 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:14.560 And then you're right, I did kind of come full circle. 118 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:18.360 Many years later, I worked in a maxim security prison 119 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.839 for a couple of years. I've spent probably fifteen years 120 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:26.879 evaluating offenders, oftentimes violent offenders. And what's interesting is that, 121 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.720 you know, I have seen a lot of things and 122 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:34.000 recognize that just as there's so many factors that you know, 123 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:37.000 affect victims in terms of the again, their ability to 124 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:40.959 recover from it, how they were victimized, why they were victimized, 125 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:44.360 the circumstances, I found the same thing with so many perpetrators. 126 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.720 That know, every perpetrator was unique and they had their 127 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:50.839 own story and it never excused what they did, but 128 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:54.279 it did help me understand I think that you know, 129 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:57.399 not all perpetrators obviously are the same, and there are 130 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:00.319 people in there who, you know, if life circumstans answers 131 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:02.000 were different. I don't think they would have ever ended 132 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:03.600 up there. And then there were people in there that 133 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:05.560 I felt like I would never want to meet in 134 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:09.000 a dark alley, So it really I think, you know. 135 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:11.920 I was teaching at a graduate program recently and I 136 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:14.680 really encouraged all the students. You know, if you're going 137 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:18.600 to be in forensic psychology, please consider making sure that 138 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:21.800 you work with everybody involved in that system, because I 139 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:25.600 think it does help you know understand the complexity of it. 140 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:30.439 You write about how this book is organized by questions. 141 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.959 Where were those questions derived from? You talk about your 142 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:38.079 Psychology Today blog, but tell us where other sources of 143 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:39.600 these questions came from. 144 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.959 Well, it's interesting the idea directly came from my reader. 145 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:45.000 So I've been writing a Psychology Today blog called the 146 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:48.800 Human Equation for over ten years now and just have 147 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:51.439 been very lucky to have so many great readers who 148 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:55.199 follow the column, and I literally would get people write 149 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.000 me all these questions, and a lot of them I 150 00:07:57.079 --> 00:07:59.120 knew from our research, and some of them I didn't. 151 00:07:59.399 --> 00:08:02.759 And I've kept this running tally of questions that people 152 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:05.079 have asked and as well as I guess myths and 153 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:09.040 miss misconceptions. So it's probably a combination of the research, 154 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:12.439 the misunderstandings that I saw in the media over and 155 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:15.560 over again, and then again the questions the readers asked me, 156 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:18.120 and then a couple of years ago, the beginning of COVID, 157 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:19.759 I thought, you know, this is a great time for 158 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:23.360 me to really sit down from my readers first and foremost, 159 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:25.120 and then just to make sure I know as much 160 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:28.560 as I can answer those questions in a very you know, 161 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:30.920 hopefully readable format. And that's just what I did. 162 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:34.320 You have all of these parts, could you tell us 163 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:36.440 the parts and what they represent? 164 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:38.360 Well the parts of the book. I did try to 165 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:42.240 like look for themes as I was going through, because 166 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:44.200 one hundred and one questions is a lot of questions, 167 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:46.159 and I thought, okay, how do we categorize these? And 168 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:48.720 so I just started out pretty much with the basics. 169 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:51.799 You know, what is a serial killer? How many are there? 170 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:54.279 You know, are there? Or some of the things that 171 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.159 we think about serial killers true For example, many of us, 172 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:01.000 particularly if we follow true crime, part of something called 173 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:05.840 the McDonald's triad, which is bedwetting, fire setting, and animal cruelty. 174 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:08.000 At an early age, we used to think that that 175 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:10.679 was like the you know, the crystal ball of who's 176 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:12.840 going to become a serial killer. It's become much more 177 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:15.240 complicated as we know. So the first part was just 178 00:09:15.320 --> 00:09:18.440 kind of like this basic kind of definitions demographics, and 179 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:20.120 then I kind of started looking again at some of 180 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:22.919 the serial killer psyche. You know, what are the motives 181 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:27.120 of serial killers? Are their common backgrounds, is it nature 182 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:30.120 versus nurture, those kinds of things. And then I, you know, 183 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:31.960 looked at some one of my favorite topics, which is 184 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:34.679 female serial killers. For some reason, have kind of an 185 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:37.759 interest in female still killers. And I also think that, 186 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:42.120 you know, we as a country tend to be somewhat ethnocentric, right, 187 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:44.519 you know, we kind of tend to focus, which is 188 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:46.879 probably two of every country. You're You're focused on what's 189 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:51.279 happening here, and yet there are some very interesting serial 190 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:53.159 killers from around the world, and so I wanted to 191 00:09:53.159 --> 00:09:55.559 be sure that I included those, and then you know, 192 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:58.600 and looked at modern day serial killers. It's just amazing 193 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:01.279 to me, especially you know, during the past couple of years, 194 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:06.120 we've seen so many programs and documentaries and shows about 195 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:08.840 kind of the serial killers of the seventies and eighties. 196 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:11.840 So we've seen you know, John Wayne Gacy, We've seen 197 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:14.679 Ted Bundy, We've seen Richard Ramirez, and yet there are 198 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:17.600 a lot of stori killers, less of course than the 199 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:20.120 heyday of serial killers in the seventies and eighties, but 200 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:22.759 there are serial killers today, and so I wanted to 201 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:24.759 be sure and kind of go, hey, even though we're 202 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.159 very lucky that the number and prevalence of serial killers 203 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.279 does seem to have decreased, don't think that they aren't 204 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:33.759 out there and that they're still happening. So I wanted 205 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:36.000 to be sure that I covered at some of them, 206 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:37.879 and then I want to just spend some time just 207 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:40.559 talking about kind of I guess, coming full circle again 208 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:42.759 and talking about some of the you know, the friends 209 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:46.039 and the families and the impact of that, and also 210 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:49.759 some of the heroic stories, because it's amazing how many 211 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:52.679 stories there are of courageous victims you managed to get 212 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:55.480 away or who are willing to testify and look that 213 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:57.720 person in the face who did horrible things to them. 214 00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:00.559 And there's even at least one case where the family 215 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.759 was responsible for capturing the serial killers. I just want 216 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:06.159 to be sure and just say, hey, you know, victims 217 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:08.840 are survivors, and sometimes they're more than that. 218 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.879 You right that since nineteen hundred there have been three 219 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:18.200 thousand identified American serial killers responsible for close to ten 220 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:22.159 thousand deaths. What have you found about the prevalence of 221 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:26.559 serial killing in the US as opposed to other countries, 222 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.320 and tell us a little bit more expand a little 223 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:32.799 bit more about some of the myths that we have 224 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:34.399 about the serial killers. 225 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:38.080 Right to start, well, certainly this proble will come as 226 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:42.159 surprise to nobody that the United States leads the world 227 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:45.200 in terms of the number of serial killers that have 228 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.399 been identified and captured. And I want to make sure 229 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.000 I underline that because there's I think there's probably no 230 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:54.320 question that there have been more serial killers in the 231 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:56.960 United States, but we also tend to be better at 232 00:11:56.960 --> 00:11:59.639 catching them, and so there's a little bit of a 233 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:03.559 cavity out there that, yeah, we definitely lead by a lot, 234 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:06.840 you know, a real lot. I think the UK is second, 235 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.720 and then South Africa's third, and they are way way, way, 236 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:13.159 way way down in comparison to US. So but there 237 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:15.200 is again there's a whole issue that we tend to 238 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:18.279 be better at catching them. So you know, there's all 239 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:20.200 kinds of theories as to why that's the case, because 240 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:22.320 if you look at violence in general, we tend to 241 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.559 fall in the middle as a country, so we're not 242 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:27.320 like necessarily the most violent country in the world, but 243 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:30.879 we just for some reason have the most serial killers. 244 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:33.840 And then talking about myths, I think there are a 245 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:36.519 lot of myths about steal killers. I've kind of alluded 246 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:38.919 to one that they all have this kind of triad 247 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:42.320 that we can identify them early on. I think another 248 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:46.919 pretty common myth is this kind of evil genius myth 249 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.919 that stial killers are just super super smart and they 250 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:53.399 get away with our crimes because they're just cunning and 251 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.960 they just can kind of outsmart everybody. And we know 252 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:58.720 that there are some outliers, and there have been some 253 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:02.080 very very smart killers, but if you look as a group, 254 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:07.080 they aren't particularly smart. We tend to find serial killers 255 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.360 overrepresented at the end of the spectrum, so you have 256 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:15.519 more probably gifted serial killers than the normal population, but 257 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.240 you also have a lot more serial killers who are 258 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:20.519 at the lower end of the spectrum. So that tends 259 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:23.559 to be kind of an interesting finding. But certainly this 260 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:27.480 idea that Hannibal Lecter, you know, is the poster child 261 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:31.679 for serial killers is really really a myth. And I 262 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:34.080 guess the last thing I would mention in terms of 263 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:38.600 a misconception is and I think it's because, you know, 264 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:42.919 the media tends to focus on sexually motivated serial killers, 265 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.000 and those kinds of killers tend to get the most 266 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:48.960 coverage and the most press. And again that's you know, 267 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:52.519 our you know, Richard Ramires or the dating game killer, 268 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:55.519 or the Gary Ridgeway, the Green River killer, and there's 269 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:58.000 a bunch we can name. Those are all sexually motivated 270 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:00.759 serial killers. And I think it's important to realize that 271 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:03.399 there are lots of different motives that drive serial killing, 272 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:06.039 and money, for one thing, is a huge motive in 273 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:10.200 a significant number of serial killers. Revenge can be, psychosis 274 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:14.159 can be. So our perception of who is a serial killer, 275 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.240 I think is somewhat narrow. When you look at the definition, 276 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:18.080 it's much broader. 277 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:22.639 You also discussed the latest research as well that what 278 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.240 causes someone to become a serial killer. Obviously we have 279 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:31.399 no idea, but we as you right, we are learning. 280 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:32.360 We are learning. 281 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:34.559 You said there's no single recipe. 282 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:35.840 What have you learned? 283 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:38.360 Well, there is no single recipe. I mean what we 284 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.600 think is if you are trying to put together a 285 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:45.039 recipe in terms of, okay, how can we develop a 286 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.440 serial killer or create one? You would probably put things 287 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:51.000 in the mix, like somebody who has a GEP genetic 288 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:57.200 predisposition to psychopathy. You would also put in some childhood trauma, 289 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:01.399 most often parental abuse or neglect. It would be helpful 290 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:03.919 probably to throw in a head injury. They might have 291 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:07.519 some difficulties and adolescents some kind of formative sexual experience. 292 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:10.679 You're talking about sexually motivated serial killers, and so you're 293 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:15.320 kind of developing all these ingredients that are more prevalent 294 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:20.759 in you know, still killers as opposed to the average population. 295 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.519 But again they are exceptions to every rule. So you 296 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:26.720 can find serial killers who seem to have not only 297 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:29.200 a normal childhood, but some of them seem to have 298 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:32.080 almost an idyllic childhood, and if they turn out that way. 299 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.320 So I think we know some ingredients, But what we 300 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:38.159 don't know, I think is that perfect recipe. I think 301 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.360 because it's just more complex than that, and there always 302 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:44.159 seems to be this kind of X factor, you know, 303 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:47.399 that we don't quite figure out. Because Tanna, it's like 304 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:51.919 for every person who has a terrible childhood, and I've 305 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:55.759 met people who just really had nightmare childhoods who became 306 00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:00.000 not only very empathetic, but they became crusaders for us. 307 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:04.360 There are people with similar experiences. So what does that mean? Right? 308 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:08.240 It means that most people who are abused, even horribly 309 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.919 don't become murderers or violent or serial killers. So why 310 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:14.799 does this put person become this way? And that's I 311 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:17.240 think the part that we're trying to really tease out 312 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:18.039 and understand. 313 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.559 You include a story that's completely perplexing, despite what you 314 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:25.840 just said, and use this example of the Stainer family. 315 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.919 When young Steven, seven years old, is abducted by predator 316 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:35.840 Kenneth Parnell and convinced that his family doesn't want him anymore, 317 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:38.919 he takes care of him, and taking care of him 318 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:44.320 means continued sexual assault until he decides to abduct the 319 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:46.440 five year old. Tell us a little bit more about 320 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:48.440 this story that you include. 321 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.440 That is one of the most interesting stories to me, 322 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:54.960 not only in the book, but just in general. How 323 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:58.279 can you have a family where you have a victim 324 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:02.159 of a child predator who I mean, this is an 325 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.519 extreme example, you're right, of this sexual predator abducts this 326 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.920 young boy off the street, convinces him that his family 327 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:11.920 doesn't want him, basically threw them away, gave him to him. 328 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.200 He's with him for years, you know, is subjected to 329 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:20.200 all these terrible things. And yet when apparently, you know, 330 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:24.480 Stephen is the predator, Parnell I think starts thinking that, 331 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:26.839 you know, Stephen has kind of aging out of his 332 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:31.319 sexual interest range, and so he decides to abduct another victim. 333 00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:34.279 And here's this person who's gone through all this for years, 334 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.079 and you're right, he decides I'm not letting this happen 335 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.839 to somebody else and has the courage to literally rescue 336 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.160 this five year old. And of course, is you and 337 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:46.039 I both know the irony of this. Not only is 338 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:48.839 here's somebody who's been victimized for years who becomes the 339 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.799 savior of another child and uses that experience to do that, 340 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:56.359 but now has a brother, Carrie, who becomes a serial 341 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.200 killer himself. And that is just really it's almost like it, 342 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:01.799 you know, if it was a fiction movie or a 343 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:04.000 fiction book, you just be like, this is ridiculous, this 344 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:04.839 can ever happen. 345 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.920 Absolutely. You also discuss many people believe that mental illness 346 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:14.839 has a bigger role in serial killing than you have found, 347 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:18.519 but also the role of psychopathy. Tell us a little 348 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:19.799 bit about what you found. 349 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:22.079 Yeah, a couple of things. The whole mental illness issue 350 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:23.880 is kind of a hot button for me, and I 351 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:26.039 think it is a hot button just because you know, 352 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:30.400 whenever you see a horrific murder, whether it's a mash shooting, 353 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.160 whether it's you know, a serial killer, whatever, what is 354 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:36.400 the first headline, right is this mentally ill person has 355 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:39.359 gone off the rails and done these horrible things. And 356 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.039 I think the first question is how do we define 357 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:45.039 mental illness? You know, most of us define mental illness 358 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:50.599 as are things like depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, sit what 359 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.640 we call severe mental illnesses. And if you look at that, 360 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:58.319 very few serial killers have ever had that, or been 361 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:01.559 diagnosed with that, or exhibited symptoms consistent with that. There 362 00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:04.599 have been a few, but again that's there was a 363 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.160 man named Herbert Mullins, for example, who clearly was psychotic, 364 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.400 developed the delusion that there was going to be these 365 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:14.279 that could be these horrible earthquakes in San Francisco that 366 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:16.799 were going to destroy the whole city and just kill 367 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:19.920 thousands of people. And the only way to prevent that 368 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:23.640 was to make human sacrifices, basically, and so he began 369 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:26.680 killing people in his mind, thinking he was, I guess, 370 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:30.440 sacrificing a small number for the greater good. And a 371 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:33.119 colleague of mine interviewed him not only around the time 372 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.839 that he was arrested, but several years later, and this 373 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.880 clearly was somebody who was under the influence of a 374 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.400 severe middal illness, and genuinely, even you know, twenty thirty 375 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.119 years later, continue to believe that he had done the 376 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:49.240 right thing. That is incredibly, incredibly rare. Now, when you're 377 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:53.160 talking about do most serial killers meet some kind of 378 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:57.799 diagnostic criteria where if you include things like a personality disorder, 379 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:00.680 which you know most of us would not consider necessarily 380 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:03.839 a serious mental illness, yes, you're going to find an 381 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.519 overrepresentation of a personality disorder. If you're talking about sexually 382 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.279 motivated serial killers, you're going to find a greater prevalence 383 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:15.759 of paraphilias, you know, sexual sadism and those kinds of things. 384 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.119 So I'm not saying that, you know, most serial killers 385 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.319 are free of any mental health symptoms if you include 386 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.839 all these other things. But we tend to. You know, 387 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:27.519 when we read things about somebody being mentally ill, we 388 00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:29.680 do tend to jump to these ones that we're all 389 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:34.960 aware of. And again, the relationship between those specific diagnoses 390 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:40.119 like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety, etxetera, posteumatic stress disorder, 391 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:44.839 the relationship between those diagnoses and serial killing is almost zero. 392 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:51.039 Yes, you write about a poster child for psychopathy, Peter Woodcock, 393 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:55.319 and this is also the was other questions about our 394 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:59.599 serial killers ever rehabilitated. Tell us about this Peter Woodcock 395 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:02.200 story and what it demonstrates. 396 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:04.599 Well, I think, you know, I do want to to 397 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.720 talk a little bit about psychopathy, because you know, psychopathy 398 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:09.680 is obviously something I think that's gotten a lot of 399 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:13.119 buzz in the literature, in the in the any of 400 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.000 the late literature, we always I'm always reading stories like 401 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:22.160