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Speaker 2: Okay, once again it's the lady eating berries off a
Speaker 2: bush in the park alley. Ward. Here we are part
Speaker 2: two of an episode six years in the making. Go
Speaker 2: back to part one if you didn't start there, you'll
Speaker 2: get all the basics. Do one and then you do
Speaker 2: two in that order. Okay, So we are talking psychopharmacology, neurobiology, psychology, traumatology,
Speaker 2: and so much more with one of the leading experts
Speaker 2: in the field of psychedelics and hallucinogen research. So in
Speaker 2: part one we learned about the chemical structure of hallucinaeens,
Speaker 2: what receptors and networks of the brain they work in,
Speaker 2: and if hallucinations or dreams, neuroplasticity, psychosis risks secret cia
Speaker 2: shenanigans that killed even one of its closest allies. So
Speaker 2: much more, and in this episode we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about how hallucinogens are administered in the safest medical settings,
Speaker 2: different strains of mushrooms, decriminalization status, some recent rulings. We'll
Speaker 2: talk about cultivation dimensions, what's reality, how does one avoid barfing?
Speaker 2: And so much more. But first, a huge thank you
Speaker 2: to patrons of ologies who pay one dollar or more
Speaker 2: a month and submit questions for the show beforehand. These
Speaker 2: are wall to wall your questions. You can also support
Speaker 2: ologies by wearing an Ology's shirt or a tote you
Speaker 2: can tell a friend. Those shirts and totes are available
Speaker 2: at ologiesmerch dot com or for zero dollars zero sense.
Speaker 2: Feel free to leave us a review because they boost
Speaker 2: the show so much and they make my day. Such
Speaker 2: is this new one from Wildflower Soul, who were at
Speaker 2: an animal shelter and while listening to the Cappy bearra
Speaker 2: episode quote, it awakened a primal feeling in my guinea
Speaker 2: pigs and they all started wheaking along like they were
Speaker 2: Cappa bears. They were living their wild lives. Thank you,
Speaker 2: everyone else lives short. Summer's here, cut banks, textra crush,
Speaker 2: consult a doctor before doing any drugs. Let's get into it, Okay,
Speaker 2: So this very first question was all about access. Maureen
Speaker 2: Flood asked how long until we reach the point of
Speaker 2: being able to prescribe these to patients? Sarah Metsker and
Speaker 2: Johnny Clark asked what is your professional opinion about legalization?
Speaker 2: Kelly Dueling, Gregorious of thomsk Adam T Burns, Emma Scott,
Speaker 2: and Brennan Hicks all wanted to know about legalization, and
Speaker 2: Brenna wrote, just to speak, the FDA ruled against MDMA
Speaker 2: for treatment of PTSD. Do you think this ruling will
Speaker 2: affect the outcome of similar studies for shrooms? So let's
Speaker 2: a your cues about set and setting, decriminalization, stone ape theory,
Speaker 2: fMRI studies, neurodivergence, astrophysics, how to be a good trip sitter,
Speaker 2: and my own experience following clinical guidelines for a big trip,
Speaker 2: and more of your questions with a professor of Psychiatry
Speaker 2: and Pediatrics at the UCLA School of Medicine and the
Speaker 2: director of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the Harbor UCLA Medcenter,
Speaker 2: co editor of the tome The Handbook of Medical Hallucinogens,
Speaker 2: and psychedeliologist doctor Charles grow. A lot of people wanted
Speaker 2: to know about access. People wanted to know, what's your
Speaker 2: opinion on legalizing all hallucinogetic mushrooms? How do you feel
Speaker 2: about Oregon recently legalizing it? Where are we at with it?
Speaker 2: If someone wanted to do this, Like my psychiatrist is like,
Speaker 2: just get a hold of some I so far I
Speaker 2: haven't been arrested for talking about it, right right?
Speaker 3: I knock what knock? Knock? Well.
Speaker 4: Also, this whole situation maybe has changed in the last week,
Speaker 4: given what we're learning about the MAPS hearing at FDA.
Speaker 4: It was very, very negative. They were highly critical of MAPS.
Speaker 4: So well, let's extend over to psilocybin.
Speaker 2: I don't know so MAPS side note stands for the
Speaker 2: Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies and it's this nonprofit. It's
Speaker 2: based in the US, and it focuses on research for
Speaker 2: MDMA for PTSD, ayahuasca, for addiction in PTSD, medical cannabis, LSD,
Speaker 2: and psilocybin for anxiety and depression. And just days before
Speaker 2: we sat down to record this, an FDA panel rejected
Speaker 2: research for MDMA aid to therapy for PTSD, which is
Speaker 2: a huge blow to researchers and psychedeliologists, if you will,
Speaker 2: And according to this recent New York Times article about it,
Speaker 2: the panel wasn't convinced that the benefits outweigh the risks
Speaker 2: in MDMASS therapy, and they cited these potential cardiovascular effects,
Speaker 2: but also called into question how blinded the methodology is,
Speaker 2: given that subjects can usually tell whether they have been
Speaker 2: given a dud or whether they are chewing their cheeks
Speaker 2: and rolling on molly in front of a guy in
Speaker 2: a lab coat. So it was a nine to two
Speaker 2: vote total bummer and other experts and cheerleaders of this therapy,
Speaker 2: including some sexual assault survivors who showed up to speak
Speaker 2: about how revolutionary the therapy was for them, have been
Speaker 2: pretty disappointed. Now, it should also be noted that the
Speaker 2: FDA doesn't regulate talk therapy at all, so it's a
Speaker 2: tough thing to regulate. It's a tough thing to study. Now,
Speaker 2: what does this mean for access to hallucinogenic or psychedelic therapies. Now,
Speaker 2: criminalization varies not only country to country, but state to
Speaker 2: state and city to city. Now Oregons do criminalization law
Speaker 2: went into effect in January twenty twenty three, and Denver
Speaker 2: has a green light, and California passed some resolutions in
Speaker 2: Santa Cruz and Berkeley and San Francisco marking psychedelics as
Speaker 2: the lowest law enforcement priority or like don't worry about
Speaker 2: it now. Back in twenty nineteen, Oakland passed a similar
Speaker 2: resolution stating that no city funds or resources can go
Speaker 2: to the enforcement of laws imposing criminal penalties for the
Speaker 2: use and possession of entheogenic plants by adults. So someplaces
Speaker 2: more loosey goosey than others when it comes to eating
Speaker 2: sixty million year old fungus that you can pick out
Speaker 2: of a cow patty if you know what you're doing.
Speaker 4: I am very interested in seeing what happens with Oregon.
Speaker 4: My admonition to them would be be as careful as
Speaker 4: you can, and pay attention to safety parameters and keep
Speaker 4: an eye out for ethical improprieties, because that'll bring the
Speaker 4: whole house down. These are such valuable experiences there, the
Speaker 4: gifts of the gods. They come to us from the earth,
Speaker 4: you know, and if use wisely in a proper context,
Speaker 4: with proper oversight and in moderation, not taking that heroic dose.
Speaker 4: Most people, I don't hope people. Most people, whether they
Speaker 4: experience fairly well with a lot of important knowledge and insight.
Speaker 2: It's interesting. If you'd told me when I was in
Speaker 2: high school that there'd be weed stores everywhere and yoga
Speaker 2: moms selling teach Sea tinctures, I would not believe it is.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting to see how much the legalization of
Speaker 2: marijuana in so many states might pave the way. However,
Speaker 2: when is like MRC and fies are going to come
Speaker 2: in and well, in the case of it.
Speaker 4: The problem with marijuana legalizing is we now have to
Speaker 4: also deal with the synthetic cannabinoids we need to deal with.
Speaker 4: It's kind of the free based product wax.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: I've seen people get quite psychotic, especially young people who
Speaker 4: were predisposed to manic depressive illness. They would get manic,
Speaker 4: they get psychotic, and it wasn't was smoking just weed
Speaker 4: per se.
Speaker 2: Now, doctor Grobe said, there's also laboratory synthesized cannabinoid spice.
Speaker 2: It's called which seems very on the nose, or there
Speaker 2: are strains treated with a solvent to create a wax,
Speaker 2: and their strength is often vastly underestimated in case you're
Speaker 2: looking to elevate your heart rate or have a massive
Speaker 2: panic attack if you or me. But when it comes
Speaker 2: to psychedelics, So.
Speaker 4: One thing I think that's desperately needed in Colorado and
Speaker 4: Oregon is good public education is going to be open
Speaker 4: to the public. There are going to be a lot
Speaker 4: of people who don't know much of anything about this.
Speaker 4: They need knowledge, they need to be instructed. Ideally, you
Speaker 4: would have legally sanctioned centers to facilitate psychedelic experience in
Speaker 4: the presence of trained and certified facilitators.
Speaker 2: Right. Josie Rutherford and Jasmine Leo wanted to know about
Speaker 2: potential negative effects like remembered trauma falsely or truthfully remembered,
Speaker 2: and Brooklyn Baron, Laura Wood, April Carter, and Julia Lorraine asked,
Speaker 2: in Julia's words, I'm so excited for this, Okay, can
Speaker 2: you ask theologists about the incidents of psychosis induced by
Speaker 2: psilocybin and also if there are ways to prevent it.
Speaker 2: Some folks wanted to know, how would one know before
Speaker 2: if they embark on this, if they would be prone
Speaker 2: to psychosis or prone to.
Speaker 3: Well, are you at high risk?
Speaker 4: Well, you look at your own history, were there any
Speaker 4: preceding episodes where reality testing was in question? Or what
Speaker 4: about your biological family history, your biological genetic history. If
Speaker 4: it's loaded with people with bipolar disorder, there I believe
Speaker 4: is significant risk. Now that they may weather it just fine,
Speaker 4: but they're at higher risk than the next person who
Speaker 4: did not have such a history in his or her family.
Speaker 2: And if you're looking for someone to evaluate if this
Speaker 2: might be a good option for you, how does one
Speaker 2: go about that? Now? Some patrons Jasmine Alexandra and Jelica
Speaker 2: Stanley Eva Jisova and Kate Munker and Wailo asked if
Speaker 2: it's safe to self administer, either unaccompanied or with a
Speaker 2: friendly trip sitter, or are there other researchy means to
Speaker 2: do it allow? I wanted to know where can you
Speaker 2: find a trained medical doctor or clinical trial to join,
Speaker 2: Oh God, or a sitter.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a tough one to answer, because I guess
Speaker 4: it's legal now in Oregon as far as I'm aware,
Speaker 4: and it's approaching legality in Colorado. I'm not sure where
Speaker 4: they are with that process. But outside of those two states,
Speaker 4: like you you had to play your luck at knock
Speaker 4: on open, Yeah, you.
Speaker 2: Front meet someone in a parking lot.
Speaker 3: Walk through the woods.
Speaker 4: I saw this great you know Paul Stamitz, the famous
Speaker 4: ethno mycologist. So I'm going to talk on a great
Speaker 4: slide of a rural Oregon police station. And it was
Speaker 4: this expansive front lawn and it was proliferating with with
Speaker 4: with silicide mushrooms. So how did they get there? Whether
Speaker 4: it was it the spirits directing the spores to settle
Speaker 4: down there, or then you have some wise guy kids
Speaker 4: who thought this would be a lot of fun to do.
Speaker 2: Just confiscated mushrooms just for like this is a good
Speaker 2: O's places. And last week we talked about how CIA
Speaker 2: operations to use LSD as a truth serum or in
Speaker 2: warfare disproportionately experimented on people of color, sometimes in cruel
Speaker 2: and inhumane ways. And in the paper Don't Kill My
Speaker 2: buzz Man, explaining the criminalization of psychedelic drugs, political scientist
Speaker 2: Conrad Sprowl of the University of organ explains that in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight, possession of LSD was banned by the
Speaker 2: US federal government. In nineteen seventy there was this Controlled
Speaker 2: Substances Act that classified LSD and other psychedelics as Schedule
Speaker 2: IE drugs, signifying that they had no medical potential and
Speaker 2: the highest possible potential for abuse, and then in nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy one through the un psychedelics were placed in the
Speaker 2: strictest category like above cocaine, alongside heroin. And these bands
Speaker 2: largely arose from this fallout with MK Ultra discussed in
Speaker 2: Part one, and this type of moral panic that was
Speaker 2: counter to the counterculture of the hippie or now boomer
Speaker 2: generation who were not keen to go fight in wars
Speaker 2: they did not agree with. They rebelled against that, and
Speaker 2: then this moral panic began. And Sprowl continues that no
Speaker 2: discussion of drugs in the US can be complete without
Speaker 2: addressing race, which has been entwined with drug rhetoric from
Speaker 2: the beginning. They write, and that the racialization of the
Speaker 2: drug problem and the resultant harmed to communities of color
Speaker 2: has only increased, with non white defendants convicted of drug
Speaker 2: crimes at massively disproportionate rates. Sprowl notes and In case
Speaker 2: you do not live in the United States, let me
Speaker 2: just remind you that our healthcare systems and our prison
Speaker 2: systems are for profit. So it does pay to do drugs,
Speaker 2: but it just pays somebody else.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 2: Mattzicato and Josie Brutherford, Aaron White, Megan Morgan all had questions.
Speaker 2: Douche rooms have to be grown in the wild and
Speaker 2: harvested or can they be farmed as such?
Speaker 4: No, they can be cultivated. In fact, the ones who
Speaker 4: developed the first procedure for this were the McKenna brothers. Yeah,
Speaker 4: back in the early mid seventies, So just.
Speaker 2: A quick side note. Terrence McKenna was this mystic and
Speaker 2: ethroboticist and after trips to the Amazon, stumbling into this
Speaker 2: field of psilocybin mushrooms. He worked with his brother to
Speaker 2: cultivate them using just home DIY equipment, and in nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy six they first published The Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide,
Speaker 2: which was this seminal handbook that changed the accessibility to hallucinogens.
Speaker 2: You could just grow them in the garage, and he
Speaker 2: took a lot of trips. He wrote a lot about
Speaker 2: mind expansion, some theories about time being fractals and the
Speaker 2: world and time ending in twenty twelve. Unfortunately he was
Speaker 2: not here to see that it's pretty much the same
Speaker 2: but worse, as he died of this aggressive rain tumor
Speaker 2: at the turn of the century in two thousand at
Speaker 2: the age of fifty three. But Timothy Leary said that
Speaker 2: he was one of the most important people on the
Speaker 2: planet because of Terence McKenna's work in cultivating them. And
Speaker 2: so I understand that there's like Golden Teacher, and there's penis,
Speaker 2: and even those are like different strains of mushrooms. Do
Speaker 2: any of them have an effect? Some people wanted to know,
Speaker 2: like Megan Morrian wanted to know how are dose is determined.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, you like to take a compound where
Speaker 4: there's some history of people having experience with it. That
Speaker 4: way you can gauge what the proper dose is. If
Speaker 4: it's super potent and will trigger a massive reaction that
Speaker 4: only you know, two grams of mushrooms, you want to
Speaker 4: contain the dosing. On the other hand, if they're old
Speaker 4: and they're kind of stale, yeah, and they've been exposed
Speaker 4: to the elements and they're not as strong, it may
Speaker 4: take you have to be careful about this, but it
Speaker 4: may take a higher dose.
Speaker 2: So if you've ever tried to dive into this world
Speaker 2: and you're like, what's with the golden penis teacher, I'm confused.
Speaker 2: Let's run it down right quick. So there are different
Speaker 2: strains of the same species of psilozepin mushroom, and the
Speaker 2: most common strains are Golden Teacher, which has a slim
Speaker 2: stock and an umbrella cap. It's said to be more gentle,
Speaker 2: kind of a more introspective experience. Penis envy is a
Speaker 2: very long looking shroom. Clearly it has a thick stock
Speaker 2: and a little phallic hat and according to one independent lab,
Speaker 2: the penis envy strain had double the potency of their
Speaker 2: Golden Emperor, which was a derivative of a Golden Teacher.
Speaker 2: So different strains can vary. And for Libytamco, who asked
Speaker 2: to the stocks versus the caps really have a difference
Speaker 2: in potency, I've heard the caps are significantly stronger. The
Speaker 2: research team found that the cap of the Golden Emperor
Speaker 2: mushroom was more potent than the stem, but it was
Speaker 2: the inverse for the penis envy strain that had a
Speaker 2: more powerful shaft. If you will, so tip of the
Speaker 2: cap to them for studying that and how they're cultivated
Speaker 2: can also make a difference, apparently. And there was this
Speaker 2: thing called this Psychedelic Cup competition. It was held last
Speaker 2: fall in Denver, of course, and different species and strains
Speaker 2: were awarded with things like the most enviable or potency,
Speaker 2: and one microbiologist shared the growing hack that water absorbing
Speaker 2: packs kind of like what you find at the bottom
Speaker 2: of like a beef jerky pouch, but bigger can help
Speaker 2: keep mushrooms more potent as water breaks down psilocybin, noting
Speaker 2: that blue streaks on your stocks means psilocybin's breaking down
Speaker 2: and you've kind of already lost it. What so yes?
Speaker 2: First time question asker Renee Wanger, who wanted to know
Speaker 2: is their shelf life and what happens if they go bad?
Speaker 2: How do they go stale?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Because I was I was microdosing with some old ones.
Speaker 2: It didn't feel much. I had a friend, we got
Speaker 2: some We're very well done. I gave a little bit
Speaker 2: to a friend again, please nobody arrest me, and she
Speaker 2: did like a gram and she was like, I was
Speaker 2: like tripping. She's like, I think these are really strong. Right,
Speaker 2: where does the potency go?
Speaker 4: Yeah, what are the conditions out of jag potency? Or
Speaker 4: Dave Nichols, who's kind of this eminent medicinal chemists or
Speaker 4: natural product chemists, maybe the world's leading scientists in this area.
Speaker 3: You know, he talks.
Speaker 4: If you want to keep them fresh, you keep them
Speaker 4: in a dark, cool environment. Oh, so that means if
Speaker 4: you expose them to sunlight, just leave it lying around,
Speaker 4: and it's maybe the climactic conditions are kind of hot
Speaker 4: and humid, it's likely going to lose some of its potency.
Speaker 2: And in a twenty twenty study stability of psilocybin and
Speaker 2: its four analogs and the biomass of the psychotropic mushroom
Speaker 2: Psilicybe cubensis, researchers stashed some shrooms in different conditions and
Speaker 2: found that after a week things were still pretty fresh.
Speaker 2: The changes in concentrations were negligible, but after two months
Speaker 2: and on of storage, nearly all of the alkaloids were reduced,
Speaker 2: and the bags that fared the best were stored in
Speaker 2: the dark at around twenty degrees celsius or room temperature.
Speaker 2: But don't store them too cold, because fresh mushrooms frozen
Speaker 2: to negative eighty degree celsius or negative one ten fahrenheit
Speaker 2: had the highest degree of chemical staleness, if you will. Also,
Speaker 2: I learned in this episode that psilocybin mushrooms have been
Speaker 2: around for about sixty five million years, kind of coinciding
Speaker 2: with the timeline of the great asteroid that killed the
Speaker 2: dinos and the KPg boundary layer and the alkaloids that
Speaker 2: trip us out may have been selected through evolution because
Speaker 2: of insect or gastropod munchers, but evidence on that is debated.
Speaker 2: What is not up for debate is that most people
Speaker 2: don't want a bad trip or a kaleidoscope of brain terror,
Speaker 2: and patron Maria Wanman said that they've heard horror stories
Speaker 2: about getting stuck in a bad trip, and Josie Rutherford, Kanyie,
Speaker 2: Connie Boboni, Tom Brady, and Kevin Wildermouth asked about the
Speaker 2: old set and setting meaning mindset and going into a
Speaker 2: good one and setting as in an environment that feels
Speaker 2: safe and secure, as well as raina'm Beck. At the
Speaker 2: sac seacrast scientists Abby and Maria Wayman. A lot of
Speaker 2: people also wanted to know about set and setting, but
Speaker 2: Raina wanted to know what happens during a bad trip
Speaker 2: or Abby wants to know does a bad first trip
Speaker 2: mean you're doomed to never have a good trip? Like
Speaker 2: what is set? And setting?
Speaker 3: What I teach?
Speaker 4: You know, I'm actually talking on occasion with some of
Speaker 4: the young psychiatrists at UCLA who are very interested in yes,
Speaker 4: and I tell them and I'm actually able to demonstrate
Speaker 4: it once and we did an experimental session with a patient.
Speaker 4: If someone starts to get very anxious, very agitated, and
Speaker 4: somewhat disoriented, like what happened with this a few months
Speaker 4: ago with a subject, the most helpful thing you can
Speaker 4: do you get their attention and you say, I know
Speaker 4: you're having a challenging experience right now, but you need
Speaker 4: to know this is time limited. That if we just
Speaker 4: wait for you know, some minutes or maybe a couple
Speaker 4: of hours, you will return to your normative sense of self.
Speaker 4: Because the scariest thing in a bad trip is oh
Speaker 4: my god, I've done something to myself. I will never
Speaker 4: be myself again, I will never find myself again. So
Speaker 4: it's important to dispel that. So we had this subject
Speaker 4: too was get you know, the model was it was
Speaker 4: open label, so we knew what they were getting. The
Speaker 4: first session, he got ten milligrams, as we.
Speaker 2: Covered in part one, on a big trip is about
Speaker 2: twenty five milligrams of straight synthesized standardized psilocybin in pill form,
Speaker 2: and a microdose, on the other hand, would be maybe
Speaker 2: three grams. So ten milligrams is between a giant and
Speaker 2: a tiny dose.
Speaker 3: This is a depressed patient.
Speaker 4: And a month later he got twenty five. And my
Speaker 4: junior associates were after the first session, which guy did great,
Speaker 4: they said, oh, this is this is a snap, but
Speaker 4: I said, no, wait for session two. Twenty five milligrams
Speaker 4: is going to be far more challenging, and it certainly was,
Speaker 4: and so he stood up. He's looking kind of frantic
Speaker 4: looking around. It looks like he's feeling trapped. And one
Speaker 4: problem was between where he was sitting and the door
Speaker 4: I was sitting, so he would have to go over me.
Speaker 4: I don't know want that to happened, So I figured time.
Speaker 3: For me to talk. So I gave him my wrap
Speaker 3: and it helped. It's gonna be okay.
Speaker 2: You'll see that.
Speaker 4: He calmed down, sat down a couple minutes later, big smile,
Speaker 4: and he said, this is great.
Speaker 3: Yes, I can see so much.
Speaker 2: You know, someone told me before mine. If you start
Speaker 2: to get scared, think of it like a sign to
Speaker 2: go toward that thing.
Speaker 3: Way, Yeah, curious, ask it.
Speaker 4: If you see something scary, like a monster or something,
Speaker 4: ask it, what can I learn?
Speaker 3: What can I be from encountering you? What can you
Speaker 3: tell me? What do I need to know?
Speaker 4: That's what Ralph Metzner used to teach. He was one
Speaker 4: of the most esteemed authorities in this area that I've known.
Speaker 4: He was a great friend. He died in I think
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen or so. He was a master at guiding
Speaker 4: people through these experiences and the way if you got
Speaker 4: into a scary place, don't run away.
Speaker 3: That'll just intensify the fear.
Speaker 4: Head towards it in a calm, deliberate way, and ask
Speaker 4: may I have your attention?
Speaker 3: And what can I learn? What do you have to
Speaker 3: teach me?
Speaker 4: And then it's remarkable what starts to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good allegory for life too. If something
Speaker 2: starts to intimidate you, it's maybe a sign if you're
Speaker 2: scared to do something or anxious about something. Looking at
Speaker 2: that of why am I scared of? This is always
Speaker 2: good now a lot of you shared the question will
Speaker 2: I cease being me in the moment or after? Why
Speaker 2: are they potentially life alterating in beautiful and sometimes dangerous ways,
Speaker 2: with patrons Luke La Femina asking will it actually make
Speaker 2: me unsad? And these changes were also on the mines
Speaker 2: of Chelsea Wick, Daniel Apdal, Natalie Roussoud, Maria Zuerrevleva Froudi, Mursam,
Speaker 2: tyson Quist, PAFKA thirty four, Linnen Hung and Carli Delson
Speaker 2: along with Jadine Lannon wanders to know what is psychedelic
Speaker 2: induced ego death?
Speaker 4: When people talk about what is that, well, ego is
Speaker 4: our sense of self and on some occasions, particularly early on,
Speaker 4: particularly with the high dose, people feel that their sense
Speaker 4: of self is fragmenting and they lose that sense of
Speaker 4: continuity with who they are and it's felt to be
Speaker 4: an integral part of the death rebirth process.
Speaker 2: And you can see our episodes on panatology and quasi
Speaker 2: thanatology if you have a lot of existential dread around death.
Speaker 2: We also have one on quantum montology with an astrophysicist
Speaker 2: who asks what Israel? And we have a scotohilology one
Speaker 2: with a dark matter expert. All of those really changed
Speaker 2: the way I viewed being alive and being dead, as
Speaker 2: did my trip. But what does a psychedeliologists think of
Speaker 2: these aspects? Kurdish Takahashi asked, is there any evidence of
Speaker 2: hallucinogenic therapy patients discovering connections to a spirit realm and
Speaker 2: bringing back divine messages for the betterment of humanity? Is
Speaker 2: there evidence of that? And Animel and jasmin Ley, they
Speaker 2: both wanted to know a few people asked about dimensions.
Speaker 2: Animel asked, you, mushroom trips open us up to other dimensions?
Speaker 2: What even is objective reality?
Speaker 4: Oh? Well, well, hopefully one question it too much because
Speaker 4: we all have to come back to normative consciousness and function. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so we don't want to get too carried away. And
Speaker 4: how strange and unusual this is. But you have a
Speaker 4: little glimmer. You have a period of time, you know,
Speaker 4: maybe some minutes, maybe some hours where you could look
Speaker 4: into the other side, and sometimes astonishing things happen, like
Speaker 4: you're approached by a deceased.
Speaker 3: Relative, close relative.
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe one where there was some unfinished business or
Speaker 4: some questions you needed to ask.
Speaker 2: Yeah, has it made you start a question, what is time?
Speaker 2: Is time even linear?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: I interviewed a quantum montologist who studies what Israel as
Speaker 2: an astrophysicist, and just about how much we don't know?
Speaker 2: And does your experience of watching other people and having
Speaker 2: gone through it yourself, does that make you question how
Speaker 2: much we know about reality?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 4: I mean there are some astrophysicists and the like who
Speaker 4: got their insight while along psychedelics. Kerrie Mullis who invented
Speaker 4: these genetic screens.
Speaker 2: Just to side note, Kerry Mulis is a seventy four
Speaker 2: year old biochemist who spent a lot of his undergrad
Speaker 2: hours at Berkeley making LSD in the lab, and he
Speaker 2: said that his trips were more impactful than any coursework
Speaker 2: he'd done. What happened to this guy?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: On LSD he visualized the mechanics of PCR testing and
Speaker 2: later won a Nobel Prize for it. In real life,
Speaker 2: that wasn't a trip.
Speaker 3: A very prominent individual.
Speaker 4: He was on a documentary basically saying I took LSD
Speaker 4: and that's when I saw this happening. Hmm. It's kind
Speaker 4: of like the discover of the Benzene ring, a nineteenth
Speaker 4: century German chemist Keckle who had a dream of a snake,
Speaker 4: and then the snake bites the tail of another snake,
Speaker 4: and they keep biting the tails until it's a six
Speaker 4: sided hexagon.
Speaker 2: Physicist Richard Feynman was also said to dabble. I'm sure
Speaker 2: he was not alone in his field nuts.
Speaker 4: So that's interesting. So the physicists, I think they're very
Speaker 4: engaged with this, and I'm sure some of the more
Speaker 4: prominent physicist had some first hand experience. It's Stephen Hawking.
Speaker 4: I don't know, but you never know. I know that
Speaker 4: Carl Sagan was quite impacted by psychedelics. His best friend
Speaker 4: growing up was Lester Grinspoone, a Harvard psychiatrist who wrote
Speaker 4: a great book called Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, published in nineteen eighty,
Speaker 4: and it was basically a compilation of all the psychedelic
Speaker 4: research that occurred up to that point. And Lester told me,
Speaker 4: and he also spoke publicly that his good friend Carl
Speaker 4: Sagan had had a number of psychedelic experiences which are
Speaker 4: of great values.
Speaker 2: Now that makes sense, that makes sense, and what if
Speaker 2: your brain is already a little different. Lizzy Booth wanted
Speaker 2: to know how hallucinogens affect people with ADHD or other
Speaker 2: neurodivergent people. Mycologist Tony Wildman peregrine, Ava Haisova, rub eating
Speaker 2: dog hair for a Living Kelly McCain and Aaron Donnie
Speaker 2: Muller for some question. Asker wanted to know a little
Speaker 2: bit as an autistic person. I'm fascinated by how physical
Speaker 2: difference in the brain structure, such as reduced neural pruning
Speaker 2: manifest and they say if those brain difference produced different
Speaker 2: effects and trips. I know you've studied MDMA and autistic people, anything,
Speaker 2: anything that you observed doing those studies In terms.
Speaker 4: Of well, I think we had some success in treating
Speaker 4: their incapacitating social anxiety. These are adults on the autism spectrum,
Speaker 4: very bright. A bunch of them had done well academically
Speaker 4: through high school and then went off to college and
Speaker 4: completely collapse and couldn't handle really the social scenes. Yeah,
Speaker 4: the social pressure. So they went home and couldn't get
Speaker 4: out of their room. We saw with our patients who
Speaker 4: received two experiences that they were able to move beyond
Speaker 4: that incapacitating social anxiety and function, get back out in
Speaker 4: the world, get degrees, get jobs, It was actually quite impressive,
Speaker 4: and I think it really tells us that there's a.
Speaker 3: It opened me up to the neurodiversity.
Speaker 4: Movement that we shouldn't necessarily pathologize right people with autism,
Speaker 4: that they just have a different style of understanding and
Speaker 4: of living in the world, and we need to be
Speaker 4: we need to learn from that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, And for more on this, you
Speaker 2: can see his twenty eighteen paper Reduction in Social Anxiety
Speaker 2: after MDMA assisted Psychotherapy with autistic Adults, a randomized, double blind,
Speaker 2: placebo controlled pilot study which found that participants in the
Speaker 2: MDMA group, which was administered twice during two eight hour sessions,
Speaker 2: showed a significant improvement on Leebuitz social anxiety scale scores,
Speaker 2: and it held up or continued to gradually increase even
Speaker 2: six months from the trial. Is there any way to
Speaker 2: study if something changes structurally or chemically in people who trip,
Speaker 2: Like I imagine putting someone who's tripping on mushrooms in
Speaker 2: an fMRI machine would be a little bit challenging.
Speaker 3: For that would be very challenging.
Speaker 4: There's some scary stories about someone kind of getting very
Speaker 4: anxious asking to be removed from the scanner. Then saying
Speaker 4: he didn't want to go back in, and getting a
Speaker 4: lot of pressure from the investigators that he did need
Speaker 4: to go back in because he would hurt science if
Speaker 4: he did it, and that that's not the guilt.
Speaker 3: Guilt tripped it back in.
Speaker 4: But I think that's a very challenging place. You know,
Speaker 4: you're you hear that clanking noise, you're you're immobilized pretty much.
Speaker 4: It's very claustrophobic. You know, psychedelics can be challenging under
Speaker 4: the most optimal condition putting them.
Speaker 3: In an MRI scanner. Yeah, it's not an optimal setting.
Speaker 2: Terrible. Emily Hebert, Hannah Harram DTL One of One, Caitlin Tindale,
Speaker 2: Julia s Trevor Ogborn, Josh Jones, Megan Morgan all had
Speaker 2: nausea or why does it affect my guts or body?
Speaker 2: In rumbley tumbly ways, Joe Porfido wants to know, not
Speaker 2: asking for a friend, but the nausea. I will sometimes
Speaker 2: consume with food and I think it helps. And Bethany
Speaker 2: b had a culinary query asking can certain foods or
Speaker 2: drinks eating them during a prior affect the way the
Speaker 2: experience goes. People asked about out why does pelocybin make
Speaker 2: people nauseated? And why does acid like something acidic change
Speaker 2: how it affects you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I really haven't observed a lot that much
Speaker 4: in the way of GI symptoms people who've taken psilocybin.
Speaker 4: I've had subjects tell me that taking the synthetic psilocybin
Speaker 4: felt like a cleaner experience, like guess intestinal wise than
Speaker 4: eating a mushroom.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Where I hear much more about a GI effects is ayahuasca.
Speaker 2: Oh God, I have friends that have done that.
Speaker 3: That's very challenging.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's an important part of the process, and
Speaker 4: they don't look at it as vomiting, you know, which
Speaker 4: is bad. We'd look at it as we're conditioned to
Speaker 4: look at it as a bad thing. They look at
Speaker 4: it as a purge la perga, you know, where they
Speaker 4: will get rid of all the negativity and they visualize
Speaker 4: all the negative stuff they're they're getting out of their system.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I know someone who facilitates those and she talking
Speaker 2: about just like the sweet sound of people barfing into
Speaker 2: buckets means that they're like healing, and that's a real reframe.
Speaker 3: And that's great.
Speaker 4: But then what people need to understand is at a
Speaker 4: certain point when you're wretching repeatedly, you've already brought up
Speaker 4: everything there is to bring up, but you still have
Speaker 4: this wretch reflex. You got to use a little willpower
Speaker 4: to stifle it. Yeah, and to just settle back down,
Speaker 4: because you know you're on a loop. It's not of
Speaker 4: any value to you, and it's disruptive to other people around.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I remember encountering a little bit of nausea, and I
Speaker 2: remember having read like just tell yourself, like, it's okay,
Speaker 2: it's okay, body, we can keep this in. It's chill,
Speaker 2: it's medicine, don't worry about it.
Speaker 3: It's okay to let it out too, okay to let
Speaker 3: it go.
Speaker 2: I wonder too about animals. Francis Hirst, Rudebaker and a
Speaker 2: bunch of people Jamie Denny Ryde, the Tiger and Hazel.
Speaker 2: First time question asker wanted to know do animals react
Speaker 2: to psilocybin?
Speaker 4: Well, there's a book in the eighties early nineties by
Speaker 4: a UCLA psychologist named Ron Siegel, and that was the
Speaker 4: whole premise of the book, which was to make observations
Speaker 4: of animals in the wild, you know, accessing psychedelic plants
Speaker 4: and then making observations what happens. Siegel was a little controversial,
Speaker 4: but I forget the name of the loo up, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: Ron Siegel.
Speaker 2: That book was called Fire in the Brain, Clinical Tales
Speaker 2: of Hallucination. And just as a side note, Ron Siegel
Speaker 2: was considered by Oliver Sachs and many others to be
Speaker 2: one of the foremost experts on hallucinations, and as a
Speaker 2: psychopharmacologist living in la he was a witness in the
Speaker 2: trial against actor Robert Blake, who was accused of hiring
Speaker 2: someone to kill his wife, and sometime during the testimony,
Speaker 2: doctor Siegel discussed the use of drugs on mental states
Speaker 2: and casually revealed that he had been able to teach
Speaker 2: monkeys to smoke crack cocaine. So I guess brains just
Speaker 2: say yum, yum, yum, chemicals wherever you go. But what
Speaker 2: other risks are there? And we'll get to that right
Speaker 2: after the break. But first, each week we donate to
Speaker 2: a cause of the ologists choosing, and this week doctor
Speaker 2: Charlie Grove chose Human Rights Watch, which is a nonprofit
Speaker 2: composed of about five hundred people of over seventy nationalities
Speaker 2: who are country experts, lawyers, journalists and others who work
Speaker 2: to protect the most at risk from vulnerable minorities and
Speaker 2: civilians in wartime to refugees and children in need. So
Speaker 2: that is Human Rights Watch and a donation was made
Speaker 2: possible by sponsors. Apologies get value.
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Speaker 2: Okay, back to your questions about risks. This one was
Speaker 2: asked by Jocelyn Vincent, Kathleen Carson, Rube, Ashley Adair, Devin
Speaker 2: Naples and Aaron Wilgemouth. So let's take a lesson. Una
Speaker 2: Trevanovic wants to know, what are the risks associated? Like,
Speaker 2: is my producing safe for the brain? Like any I
Speaker 2: think people who are interested in this are like, what's
Speaker 2: the worst.
Speaker 1: That could happen?
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's good to approach this with a
Speaker 4: fair degree of caution, and we don't. We're still trying
Speaker 4: to learn about it, you know. So the worst that
Speaker 4: could happen is somebody getting disoriented, losing their sense of
Speaker 4: calm and containment, running out of the building into the street.
Speaker 4: I was consulted on a case at a big East
Speaker 4: Coast university where a young guy I think he was nineteen,
Speaker 4: who would never evidently never taken a psychedelic and no
Speaker 4: psych history, got a hold of some mushrooms and on
Speaker 4: an impulse, took a substantial dose. He then went walking
Speaker 4: around the very crowded streets, crowded with people, really loud,
Speaker 4: lot of noise and construction going on, and just total
Speaker 4: hell be out there. And he had some friends with
Speaker 4: him who didn't really know what he was doing.
Speaker 2: Just jumping in with a trigger warning slash spoiler alert
Speaker 2: about a two thousand and three self harm incident that
Speaker 2: was later ruled by medical examiners to be an accident
Speaker 2: and not a suicide.
Speaker 4: So then he ended up going into the student library
Speaker 4: where a week before, another kid had gone up to
Speaker 4: a high floor and had jumped to his death. This
Speaker 4: kid didn't know the other one, but he knew the story,
Speaker 4: and he went into the elevator. His friends followed. He
Speaker 4: went up to the tenth floor, and he walked over
Speaker 4: to the railing and looked over it, and then his
Speaker 4: friends were getting very anxious, so they dragged him back,
Speaker 4: dragging him back to the elevator, but he broke free,
Speaker 4: and he just vaulted right over the railing and took
Speaker 4: a ten story dive.
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, that's the worst thing could happen, terribly?
Speaker 2: Is that a like evidence of psychosis?
Speaker 5: Is that?
Speaker 4: Do you think that's why he got disoriented? He got disoriented,
Speaker 4: he got very anxious, he lost his sense of self. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but you know, psychosis. It could have been a transient
Speaker 4: psychosis' reality testing was disturbed. But chances are if he
Speaker 4: had been in a setting where people knew what he
Speaker 4: was doing and they could contain him, that he could
Speaker 4: have gotten through that pretty quickly. Yeah, gotten to the
Speaker 4: other side and been calm and contained and not put
Speaker 4: himself in any seriously dangerous situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the trip sitting important there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, that's an important role. There's a lot of responsibility.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: For a seventy nine page guide on how to conduct
Speaker 2: a trip like the research psychiatrist do see the Yale
Speaker 2: Manual for Psilocybin assisted Therapy of Depression, which notes that
Speaker 2: beforehand the session preparation checklist is room decor like arts
Speaker 2: and plants and flowers, sheets, blanket pillow. They note it's
Speaker 2: good to have a water resistant sheet below cotton sheets
Speaker 2: in case of incontinence. It's also good to have a
Speaker 2: barf bucket, which they call an msspasin. They also recommend
Speaker 2: standard music system, ambient speakers, eye shades, having some lamps,
Speaker 2: some comfortable lighting, maybe throwing some art materials, and they
Speaker 2: also have rescue medications on hand, which can be anti
Speaker 2: anxiety drugs in case someone starts to freak out. Now.
Speaker 2: It also notes that the researchers and nursing staff greet
Speaker 2: the participant. They give standard medical and psychiatric assessments. They
Speaker 2: check the blood pressure and pulse. They evaluate the participant
Speaker 2: for suicidality. They conduct a urine toxicology and if appropriate,
Speaker 2: a pregnancy test and they ask the participant about any
Speaker 2: changes in their medications. Also, headphones or a speaker and
Speaker 2: an imask highly recommended. And to keep your thoughts moving,
Speaker 2: there's this five and a half hour Spotify playlist titled
Speaker 2: Imperial College of London Psilocybin Clinical Trial Playlist that I
Speaker 2: hear is very handy. Well one and only already Schmitz
Speaker 2: wants to know is it true that vitamin C he
Speaker 2: potentiates psilocybin's hallucinogenic effects?
Speaker 4: Not that I've ever I've never seen anything convincing on that.
Speaker 3: I know. There's anecdotal accounts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but nothing that it's like definitely doing well.
Speaker 4: There was interest in some vitamin B early on in
Speaker 4: the fifties. They thought maybe some vitamin bees were metabolites
Speaker 4: or had some kind of role in this.
Speaker 3: Humphrey Osmond was looking ato that, but nothing ever came
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 2: I understand that for placebo they'll administer niosin and people
Speaker 2: get nios in.
Speaker 4: Well that's a bit a B vitamin. Yeah, yeah, we
Speaker 4: did that as a placiba. I won't do it again.
Speaker 4: Are really worse side effects? Were both niasin reactions?
Speaker 3: Were they really? They were well?
Speaker 4: They're very sensitive, they're very fair complexion. They got bright red,
Speaker 4: face got real red, and they started itching all over. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it lasted for thirty forty miserable minutes.
Speaker 2: Now, Nysin is a b vitamin B three, and if
Speaker 2: taken in high concentrations, like over fifty milligrams, the small
Speaker 2: blood vessels of the skin can dilate and lead to hot, itchy, red,
Speaker 2: sweaty skin, and a feeling like ants are in your arms.
Speaker 2: According to one lady who drank a five hour energy
Speaker 2: drink during a college road trip and thought that she
Speaker 2: was dying, it's not subtle.
Speaker 4: We knew they were on placebo. It broke the blind.
Speaker 4: It wasn't an ideal placebo. I thought I needed a
Speaker 4: placebo condition, and there really isn't a good placebo condition. Yeah,
Speaker 4: Hopkins group likes to take very tiny dosages of the
Speaker 4: experimental medicine. But if there is anything too microdosing, then
Speaker 4: there might be somewhat of a therapeutic effect. Even taking
Speaker 4: a tiny dose as a placebo, I thought that was
Speaker 4: kind of confusing the situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, we use cornstarch.
Speaker 4: It's my favorite smart Although I'm doing something very different
Speaker 4: from my new study which is a multi site study
Speaker 4: and I'm putting together with some colleagues where we're going
Speaker 4: to treat people approaching the end of life in the
Speaker 4: palliative setting who are overwhelmed with demoralization. Demoralization is the
Speaker 4: target symptom.
Speaker 2: And what does that mean exactly?
Speaker 4: Just you've lost all sense of purpose, meaning has dissipated.
Speaker 4: You're in a terrible, unsolvable existential crisis.
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like I became way less afraid
Speaker 2: of death after I think that, I was just like, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: it's cool, I'll be fine.
Speaker 4: There's a long tradition amongst indigenous people where these plant
Speaker 4: compounds are administered to initiates to really explore different realms
Speaker 4: of consciousness, including you know, dying and envisioning or visioning
Speaker 4: people you've known, either yourself or you know through legend
Speaker 4: or myth envisioning that well.
Speaker 2: A lot of people wanted to know about the stoned
Speaker 2: ape theory, patrons and human apes. Nick and Melanie's on
Speaker 2: for so Questionsker who asked, I'm curious what your thoughts
Speaker 2: are about the stoned ape hypothesis. Is there any legitimacy
Speaker 2: to the hypothesis or is it all bunk. Does it
Speaker 2: have any truth to it? Is it bogus that.
Speaker 4: The apes in the wetlands were munching on mushrooms and
Speaker 4: they became so inspired with their experience that they had
Speaker 4: to convey it in some manner to another ape and
Speaker 4: thus began.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great theory. I don't think there's much proof.
Speaker 2: And also we should clarify that that's not a theory
Speaker 2: but rather a hypothesis by Terrence McKenna that language developed
Speaker 2: relatively quickly in humans because of enhancements to the linguistic
Speaker 2: centers in the brain from magic mushrooms and plant hallucinagens.
Speaker 2: But most scientists are like a little like they don't
Speaker 2: give it too much credence. Even some of doctor Grobe's
Speaker 2: own work is cited in essays attempted to offer proof,
Speaker 2: like this recent Psychology Today article that noted doctor Charles
Speaker 2: grow with the University of California lost in Lists and
Speaker 2: colleagues conducted to study in the early nineteen nineties exploring
Speaker 2: the effects of regular ayahuasca use in Brazil. They found
Speaker 2: that individuals who drank ayahuasca regularly scored higher on neuropsychological
Speaker 2: tests than controls. Who did not drink the sprew. But
Speaker 2: even the guy quoted in that article, Charlie or Pal
Speaker 2: Charlie Grob isntconvinced. Needs better evidence. What about neurological diseases
Speaker 2: like Alzheimer's Parkinson's, Katie Oldman wanted to know about interesting
Speaker 2: research on psilocybin and MS.
Speaker 3: Well, this is not being explored.
Speaker 4: I know a study looking at depression and people with Parkinson's,
Speaker 4: same with MS. And also, you know it's funny. Years ago,
Speaker 4: particularly regarding MDMA, we get into these endless debates about
Speaker 4: whether or not MDMA was neurotoxic, and I would argue
Speaker 4: strenuously that that was not the case. But now we're
Speaker 4: getting data that would indicate that psychedelics have neuroplastic effects. Really,
Speaker 4: so what are the implications there to people with neurologic disease?
Speaker 2: And for more on this, you can see the twenty
Speaker 2: twenty two study from Psychiatry to Neurology Psychedelics as a
Speaker 2: Prospective Therapeutics for Neurodegenerative disorders, which notes optimistically that recent
Speaker 2: studies with rodents revealed that psychedelics like psilocybins therapeutic effects
Speaker 2: might extend beyond treating major depressive disorder and substance use disorder.
Speaker 2: For example, they write, psychedelics may have efficacy in the
Speaker 2: treatment and prevention of brain injury and neurodegenerative diseases such
Speaker 2: as Alzheimer's. Now preclinical work shows the ability to induce neuroplasticity,
Speaker 2: so changing in the brain and synaptogenesis that deals with synapses,
Speaker 2: and psychedelics may also act as immunomodulators by reducing these
Speaker 2: levels of pro inflammatory markers, so neuroplasticity helping those synapses
Speaker 2: reducing inflammation. Current and future psychedeliologists no pressure, but we're
Speaker 2: all counting on you if you can fit in your schedule.
Speaker 2: Speaking of schedules, Sonia Bird, how do I figure out
Speaker 2: the right microdosing? And other microdosing questions came from Brooklyn Baron,
Speaker 2: Jasmine Alexandra Kaikishimoto, Christopher Blubaugh, vincent Pick, Jones Or Spence Felix,
Speaker 2: Kelly McCain, and Kevin Krost. What about when it comes
Speaker 2: to micro dosing, if people are like, I'm going to
Speaker 2: try it, I'm gonna do it anyway to the on
Speaker 2: or off. Like Marco Centura wanted to know once every
Speaker 2: two days.
Speaker 4: Like I've heard different regimens. I've heard like once every
Speaker 4: four days.
Speaker 2: Does it just last in your system for a couple
Speaker 2: of days.
Speaker 3: Or yeah, if you look at blood measures it'll clear.
Speaker 4: But there's some experiential component than in all likelihood persists,
Speaker 4: and it's to build up a set every four days,
Speaker 4: build up at kind of a steady state level, and
Speaker 4: see if that has any therapeutic components. But again I'm
Speaker 4: waiting for the research to come out on this.
Speaker 2: Get we need more micro psychopharmacologists.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, that's like the bottom line.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 2: Several people wanted to know when it comes to becoming
Speaker 2: a researcher in this field, right, where do you see
Speaker 2: it going? Like legality wise, Well.
Speaker 4: I'll tell you what my father told me. I tell you,
Speaker 4: I'll tell you again. He said, son, you need to
Speaker 4: get credentials. No one will listen to U because you
Speaker 4: get credentials. And for me, being his son, there was
Speaker 4: only one credential he was returning to.
Speaker 3: I had to go to medical school, which.
Speaker 4: I was avoiding, but then realized I had a greater
Speaker 4: goal to pursue and I went for it.
Speaker 2: Did you ever ask the mushrooms like should I become
Speaker 2: a doctor or what.
Speaker 4: Man. Oh, back in those days, it was a long interlude. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it was not the time, not the place, set and
Speaker 4: setting were not optimal. So I just read, I just read. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I knew that it was a fascinating area. I's some
Speaker 4: limited experience in the late sixties in college, but then
Speaker 4: not again for another twenty years. But I read everything
Speaker 4: I could, and then twenty years on I had a
Speaker 4: lot of opportunity to see for myself, and those are
Speaker 4: very viable. That being said, I haven't done anything since,
Speaker 4: you know, six years or so. Yeah, I don't feel
Speaker 4: called to it. It's a calling people feel called, not
Speaker 4: by their friends saying don't be.
Speaker 3: A will Smith. You know, it's a calling.
Speaker 4: You feel an instinctive cathexist to some greater force in
Speaker 4: nature or the spirit, realm, or whatever you want to
Speaker 4: call it, that here's this potentially remarkable experience, and you
Speaker 4: are lucky enough to live in a time and place
Speaker 4: where you actually have access. And your predecessors, your ancestors
Speaker 4: for centuries, didn't have a clue that these compounds even
Speaker 4: existed because they were underground, They were totally secret, and
Speaker 4: people who practice using them were condemned with the harshest
Speaker 4: punishments of the inquisition. They would try to wipe out
Speaker 4: the indigenous people in South and Central America. And about
Speaker 4: the midwives in Europe, in Western Europe, Eastern Europe, who
Speaker 4: knew about plants, medicinal plants. The images of the witches
Speaker 4: flying on their broomstack?
Speaker 3: Do you know what that's do?
Speaker 2: They we had a witch episode recently, but rubbing balm
Speaker 2: on the broomstick.
Speaker 3: And then inserting it, yeah, yeah, flying high, flying high. Yeah.
Speaker 4: But the authorities, all men, the church authorities and secular
Speaker 4: authorities were horrified by this.
Speaker 2: For more on indigenous perspectives on this, you can see
Speaker 2: the ethno Ecology episode and the witch Ology episode on
Speaker 2: Indigenous beliefs and the culture of witches and spells.
Speaker 3: And they murdered millions.
Speaker 4: This is in the millions, mostly women, mostly plant healers,
Speaker 4: the midwives.
Speaker 2: Is that the hardest thing about what you do is
Speaker 2: getting over really conservative views or fears or institutions that
Speaker 2: want to kind of stifle the research.
Speaker 3: I haven't run into that.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 3: It's funny.
Speaker 4: For years I was cautioned to keep my interest in myself,
Speaker 4: and then I was at John Hopkins for many years,
Speaker 4: and the chairman there didn't want to hear anything about it.
Speaker 4: So I kept my interest in myself. You know, every
Speaker 4: month I go to the medical library look at Index Medicus,
Speaker 4: what was new with psychedelics, hallucinogens or surgic you know,
Speaker 4: just to try to keep up that way. But it
Speaker 4: was seen as a career killer. This would be back
Speaker 4: in the seventies eighties. In the late seventies, we were
Speaker 4: all asked to present the research paper to our medical
Speaker 4: school class. So I found a paper of stan Groffs
Speaker 4: where he treated terminal cancer patients with anxiety and depression
Speaker 4: with LSD and DPT and had phenomenal outcomes, remarkable, one
Speaker 4: of the most moving papers I'd ever had ever read
Speaker 4: in the medical literature. So I chose that one. I
Speaker 4: distilled it down and I put together my talk. I
Speaker 4: thought I had a great talk. It was excinct at
Speaker 4: a point, it was fascinating, and I'm really excited looking
Speaker 4: forward to what are my classmates and what the professors what, well,
Speaker 4: how are they going to react to this?
Speaker 3: What are they going to say?
Speaker 4: What comments will they have, what questions will they ask?
Speaker 2: Against?
Speaker 3: Nothing?
Speaker 4: Complete silence, And then I realized, oh my, I'm not
Speaker 4: supposed to talk about this. So it really wasn't until
Speaker 4: I left Hopkins in the late eighties and came out
Speaker 4: to California and met some like minded psychiatrists, and.
Speaker 2: Like any researcher, having colleagues or a network of friends
Speaker 2: in the field can help the cause move along faster
Speaker 2: and smoother. I did an episode with James Burke of
Speaker 2: the British series Connections, and he told me in that
Speaker 2: some really great advice I think of all the time.
Speaker 2: One plus one equals three.
Speaker 3: Two.
Speaker 2: People can create things greater than the sum of their parts.
Speaker 2: It's bad math, it's a great philosophy.
Speaker 4: Marlene Duris, who was an anthropologist, you know, who really
Speaker 4: kind of helped me realize that it was still possible,
Speaker 4: even though decades had passed since I had my vision,
Speaker 4: I had my plan, and nothing could ever come of
Speaker 4: it because it wasn't the right time. By the early nineties,
Speaker 4: it was the right time. You had Rick Strausman and
Speaker 4: Universe in Mexico got permission in ninety one to study
Speaker 4: intravenous DMT. I got permission and two to study MDMA
Speaker 4: and normal volunteers, and then Debrimash and New Yors of
Speaker 4: Miami got permission the following year to study people on
Speaker 4: IBY game.
Speaker 3: That was the first opening.
Speaker 4: And then Francisco Morano at Arizona in the early two
Speaker 4: thousands did a very nice proof of concepts study using
Speaker 4: psilocybin for people with refractory OCD oh wow. And then
Speaker 4: Roland in Baltimore did a study looking at the degree
Speaker 4: to which psilocybin may facilitate a powerful altered state of consciousness,
Speaker 4: of powerful transcendent state, mystical state, which were according to
Speaker 4: the literature going back to the fifties and then into
Speaker 4: the sixties, that having a mystical experience or having a
Speaker 4: powerful transcendent or transpersonal experience would make it more likely
Speaker 4: that individual would have a very positive, longstanding therapeutic outcome.
Speaker 2: And I'm glad that that hasn't been that huge of
Speaker 2: a challenge for you career wise. Do you have any
Speaker 2: about the job? Do do you have anything?
Speaker 3: Is there something that sucks?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 4: Well, I have a straight job. I'm a mainstream psychiatrist.
Speaker 4: I'm the director of a large division of child lesson psychiatry.
Speaker 4: We have a lot of trainees. I really like kids,
Speaker 4: I was the oldest in a big family, so I
Speaker 4: grew up around kids. It was always fun, so it
Speaker 4: was a natural fit for me. And meanwhile, you know,
Speaker 4: really it was when I got to Harbor Harbor, UCLA
Speaker 4: in ninety three that I was really able to move
Speaker 4: forward with the MDMA study, the ayahuasca study.
Speaker 3: The next decade.
Speaker 4: It was a psilocybin end of life study, and now
Speaker 4: we hope to have another multi size psilocybin study.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Is there anything that's that's the hardest part of
Speaker 2: your job?
Speaker 3: My commute?
Speaker 2: Your commute. I was going to ask, well, what I found.
Speaker 4: I really it's imperative that I have people who have
Speaker 4: got a lot of energy and are very well organized,
Speaker 4: because I'm I'm a bit all over the place, so
Speaker 4: I need people to keep me on on track. And
Speaker 4: I had a wonderful resident who just moved back to
Speaker 4: the East Coast, and I need to find someone who
Speaker 4: could take her place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, maybe you'll get some emails out of this.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: What about your favorite thing about what you do?
Speaker 3: Oh, it's living the dream.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: I always dreamed of doing this, and here I had
Speaker 4: these remarkable opportunities. They just they just fell to me,
Speaker 4: and I'm very grateful that, you know, the universe has
Speaker 4: been so kind to me, and I'm really excited about
Speaker 4: the capacity these compounds have to have a therapeutic impact
Speaker 4: on people whose conditions do not normally lend themselves to
Speaker 4: positive effects from standard conventional treatments.
Speaker 3: M H.
Speaker 2: And I love also that there's a seven hundred page
Speaker 2: textbook that people can find if they want to know
Speaker 2: the compendium of like vetted information.
Speaker 3: In my book. Yeah, Jim Grigsby of Colorado, we co
Speaker 3: edited a book.
Speaker 2: Which is amazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because there is research out there that I'm sure
Speaker 2: people want to know.
Speaker 4: That book has everything. Yeah, published by Gilford Press.
Speaker 2: Got it. We'll link it everywhere. This has just been
Speaker 2: such a dream of mine. I've wanted to interview you
Speaker 2: for so long, since before I even tripped out myself.
Speaker 2: So this has really been an exciting episode.
Speaker 3: I enjoyed talking with you and maybe we'll meet again, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I hope. So.
Speaker 2: Ask tremendous experts, trippy questions and for more on doctor
Speaker 2: Charlie Grove's work in books, including his Handbook of Medical Hallucinogens.
Speaker 2: You can see the links in the show notes, and
Speaker 2: there's more up on our web page at aliward dot
Speaker 2: com slash Ologies slash Psychedelology, lots of links to lots
Speaker 2: of studies. You can find us at Ologies on x
Speaker 2: and Instagram. I'm at Ali Ward. Ali has just won
Speaker 2: l and I recently put up some new videos on
Speaker 2: Instagram and TikTok for a concept I'm are here on
Speaker 2: called Holidays Observed with your pod mom Jared Sleeper, So
Speaker 2: please do go look for those. They're fun. Also, we
Speaker 2: launched a whole ass new show in its own feed, Smologies.
Speaker 2: It's available wherever you get podcasts. Each week we release
Speaker 2: a new, g rated and shortened episode of Ologies. They
Speaker 2: are classroom safe, suitable for all ages and occasions, so
Speaker 2: we moved Oursmologies to their own feed. Have at it.
Speaker 2: There's more of them if you're going on a family
Speaker 2: road trip. If you have friends with kids, please do
Speaker 2: send them a link. Also, you can become a patron
Speaker 2: of Ologies at patron dot com slash Ologies for as
Speaker 2: little as a buck a month. Ologies merch available at
Speaker 2: the link in the show notes. Aaron Talbert admin's Ologies
Speaker 2: podcast Facebook group. Aveline Mollich makes our professional transcripts. Noel
Speaker 2: Dilworth is our scheduling producer. Susan Hale is our managing
Speaker 2: director and again Frankly a trip sitter every week do
Speaker 2: it fact checking, extra research to Kelly ar Dwyer does
Speaker 2: the website and piecing together the fractals of audio are
Speaker 2: Jake Chafee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio.
Speaker 2: Nick Thorburn wrote the theme song and if you stick
Speaker 2: around until the end, I tell you a secret this week.
Speaker 2: It's a kind of a big one. If you stick around,
Speaker 2: I said, I would tell you a little bit about
Speaker 2: my own experience tossing three point four grams of relatively
Speaker 2: fresh and potent psilocybin mush rooms down my gullet in
Speaker 2: an effort to fix my brain. So after my dad died,
Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't the easiest time. I was going
Speaker 2: through depressed talking to my psychiatrist about antidepressants and anxiety
Speaker 2: stuff like that. And at the time I wasn't on
Speaker 2: an antidepressant or a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor or SNRI,
Speaker 2: which deals with NARP and effort as well. So talking
Speaker 2: to my psychiatrist, he notes this study showing that psilocybin
Speaker 2: therapy in a clinical trial was shown to be more
Speaker 2: effective than lexapro, and so I was like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 2: going to do this. I'm going to go for it.
Speaker 2: My psychiatrist sent me all this information on how to
Speaker 2: do it, how to conduct it myself. I have a
Speaker 2: friend who knows a pharmacist who grows these things very well,
Speaker 2: and I'm again the laws listening. It happened in Oregon,
Speaker 2: but I was really, really, really nervous to do it.
Speaker 2: I'd never taken any psychedelics like that. I think I
Speaker 2: probably had like a app of a mushroom once and
Speaker 2: like barely felt anything. So I was very worried about
Speaker 2: throwing up. I was very worried about having an absolute
Speaker 2: panic attack, because sometimes if I smoked too much weed,
Speaker 2: it's just like I suddenly get terrified of death. And
Speaker 2: I realized it all that lies before us are horrible
Speaker 2: experiences of pain and disappointment. So I was afraid of
Speaker 2: that happening. And I was reading the protocol about how
Speaker 2: you should journal ahead of time so that you set
Speaker 2: out your kind of intentions, you know, what shit you
Speaker 2: want to go through and examine or look at. I
Speaker 2: went whole hog. According to Gale, protocol, Imperial College of London,
Speaker 2: other methodologies like doctor Grobs read how they did the experiments,
Speaker 2: Headphones playlist. I talked about imask now. The day before
Speaker 2: I journaled about like what my intentions were, like why
Speaker 2: was I doing this? What kind of stuff did I
Speaker 2: want to clear out? And I wanted to get through
Speaker 2: this feeling that my worth was tied to how helpful
Speaker 2: I was or how much I was making other people happy.
Speaker 2: I wanted to get through this anxiety and this perfectionism
Speaker 2: that is always using like self criticism to make me
Speaker 2: work harder. I wanted to reconnect with happiness in my
Speaker 2: life and like allow myself to feel happy without fearing
Speaker 2: that like another shoe was going to drop, which is
Speaker 2: just anxiety. And I wanted to feel more open to
Speaker 2: trusting and not feel like, oh, if I, you know,
Speaker 2: get rejected by someone, or if I do one thing wrong,
Speaker 2: someone's going to be so mad at me forever. I
Speaker 2: wanted to just trust that people who loved me love
Speaker 2: me and that was okay. And so I also wanted
Speaker 2: to process my dad's death, and so I wanted to
Speaker 2: sort of like connect with how my family relationships are
Speaker 2: and really feel like I could be myself right, And
Speaker 2: so I journaled the day before. I said, I found
Speaker 2: these by the way. I found these in an old binder.
Speaker 2: I said that some of the things I was looking
Speaker 2: for was comfort and confidence and ease and openness. And
Speaker 2: I wanted to make better choices for my body. I
Speaker 2: love hiking and walking and running. I wanted to do
Speaker 2: more of it. I wanted to not work more than
Speaker 2: I work. And so I went into it with all that.
Speaker 2: And then the day of I was super nervous. I
Speaker 2: ate like a very light breakfast, got in pajamas. Jarrett
Speaker 2: was my trip sitter. I did have one or two
Speaker 2: Sanax pills on hand in case I freaked out. Turned
Speaker 2: out I didn't need them at all. So I'm not
Speaker 2: going to tell you how to obtain things legally. That
Speaker 2: seems pretty murky, but I will tell you that we
Speaker 2: had some. They were very potent. Great. We put them
Speaker 2: in a coffee grinder until they were dust, and then
Speaker 2: I put them in a glass of tangerine juice choked
Speaker 2: it down like it was metamucl or something. And so
Speaker 2: then I get in pajamas. I have the headphones, I
Speaker 2: have my mask. Jared's sitting in the foot of the
Speaker 2: bed and I get in bed and I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: I don't feel anything, which goes on for like forty
Speaker 2: five minutes, right, and then suddenly my hands started to
Speaker 2: feel kind of tingling, and I was like, oh okay.
Speaker 2: I started to feel like a little stony bologna, and
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, Jarreed's like put the headphones on,
Speaker 2: turn on the music. Da da dah. And so then
Speaker 2: I started to feel a little bit nauseous, and I
Speaker 2: remember hearing just tell your body, it's okay, this thing
Speaker 2: is here to help you. Don't barfit. You worked hard
Speaker 2: for this, don't barf it up. It's okay. It's a friend.
Speaker 2: It's a friend. It's a friend, like when your dog
Speaker 2: is like well and you're like, it's the mailman. They
Speaker 2: have a present for us. So did a little bit
Speaker 2: of that with myself. It passed, which was cool. I
Speaker 2: was super afraid of barfing, didn't at all. And then
Speaker 2: I put on the mask. I was listening to the music.
Speaker 2: It was like whoo, you know, like trippy spa music,
Speaker 2: but it kind of served like a music in a
Speaker 2: trailer where it just brings things along, it takes you
Speaker 2: by the hand and keeps your thoughts moving, which was
Speaker 2: really helpful, I think. And so the first thing I
Speaker 2: kind of remember is feeling like I was coming into
Speaker 2: like a train station and there was just like a
Speaker 2: sea of faces, like when you see old movies like
Speaker 2: Ben hur where there's a lot of people in a coliseum.
Speaker 4: It was like that.
Speaker 2: It was just like faces that were all like hey,
Speaker 2: you made it, and it was like, holy shit, these
Speaker 2: are all my ancestors. This is bonkers. Where'd everyone come from?
Speaker 2: How do you guys know what's coming? They're like, hey,
Speaker 2: you're here, and I was like, whoa this is I
Speaker 2: got a lot of people to catch up with. This
Speaker 2: is so cool. And then one of them started leading
Speaker 2: me down into this labyrinth. Everything was kind of like
Speaker 2: brown Stone clay and they were like, let me show
Speaker 2: you around, Let me show you around, and there were
Speaker 2: people scattered waving as I was going by, and I
Speaker 2: was like, Oh, this is the trip. And then for
Speaker 2: a second I did get scared at something. There was
Speaker 2: like some kind of foreboding, scary feeling, and I remembered
Speaker 2: hearing when that happens, stop and ask what is this here?
Speaker 2: To teach me? Like go at it with curiosity and
Speaker 2: to have like, oh no, this thing's gonna suck my
Speaker 2: brains out. And so I think that I can't remember,
Speaker 2: but I think that that thing that I encountered was
Speaker 2: just like are you sure you should? And I had
Speaker 2: to tell the thing like no, I think we're good here.
Speaker 2: Thank you though, And gosh, I remember being in like
Speaker 2: a Lisa Frank like rainbow. This all, by the way,
Speaker 2: had phones and eye shades on, so this was all
Speaker 2: like in my mind's eye. I wasn't looking at anything,
Speaker 2: so I was having kind of like lucid dreams of
Speaker 2: a lot of bridges and like a beautiful Japanese garden
Speaker 2: that was all and rainbows. And then I started talking
Speaker 2: to dead people. That was pretty nanas Like Dad came through.
Speaker 2: He's like, hey, what's up.
Speaker 5: You made it?
Speaker 2: I was like, Dad, what's up. We had a long
Speaker 2: conversation about how much injustice there is in the world
Speaker 2: and how he was proud of me for trying to fight,
Speaker 2: which was really great to hear, even if my brain
Speaker 2: just made it up. I also talked to a brother
Speaker 2: in law who had died, a long conversation about how
Speaker 2: we were both like childless but an aunt and an
Speaker 2: uncle who were happy to take care of our nieces
Speaker 2: and our nephews and not to worry about not having kids.
Speaker 2: I had this really wild sort of like processing of
Speaker 2: the fact that I am not going to bear kids
Speaker 2: and probably won't raise them. If you listen to my
Speaker 2: mystery surgery a few months ago, I got nothing in
Speaker 2: there that makes babies, had them all taken out. I've
Speaker 2: been having health problems with that for over a decade. Anyway,
Speaker 2: I was having these like these really great conversations with
Speaker 2: some sort of voiceless voice being like, hey, don't worry
Speaker 2: about it. Some people are here to further their DNA
Speaker 2: and to keep that going. That's okay. You're here to
Speaker 2: make stuff and put it in the world, which is
Speaker 2: going to help other people raise their kids. So don't
Speaker 2: worry about it. That's not your legacy. DNA is not
Speaker 2: your legacy. That's also why you have so many great
Speaker 2: like female friends who understand what it's like to want
Speaker 2: to make things and maybe not prioritize motherhood. So I
Speaker 2: was like, that actually really helps. Thank you so much
Speaker 2: for that. So long conversations without words and crying. Never
Speaker 2: cried so much in my life, but like happy tears,
Speaker 2: like when you watch videos of someone coming home from
Speaker 2: a trip and their dog loses their mind recognizing them
Speaker 2: and is so happy. It was like that kind of crying,
Speaker 2: soaking handkerchiefs, kleenecks, just crying in bed. And at one point,
Speaker 2: you know, Jared, He's sitting at the end of the
Speaker 2: bed during the beginning of this, but my dad and
Speaker 2: I in this mystical realm, we're talking about Jared and
Speaker 2: how much he was so helpful and how much love
Speaker 2: he showed when my dad was in hospice and we
Speaker 2: were talking about, like what a great guy. And then
Speaker 2: at one point I had to be like, hey, Derek,
Speaker 2: can you leave actually because it's just awkward because we're
Speaker 2: like talking about you. And he was like, Okay, let
Speaker 2: me know if you need anything. At one point I
Speaker 2: did have to go to the bathroom and I was like, hey,
Speaker 2: can you help me? And I made very very sure
Speaker 2: not to look in the mirror. I heard that bad
Speaker 2: things happen when you do, although I did peek under
Speaker 2: my eyemask and all I could see was I looked
Speaker 2: like someone who had just been on a twenty hour
Speaker 2: flight with turbulence. It wasn't a good look. But I
Speaker 2: remember being like, that's what I should look like right now. Anyway,
Speaker 2: got back to bed. The whole thing lasted like six hours.
Speaker 2: I started to come down from it, and it felt
Speaker 2: really glowy and peaceful, and I remember sitting on the
Speaker 2: couch and sort of telling Jared about it, just how
Speaker 2: much I realized I'm so lucky to be able to
Speaker 2: do my dreams and I can let myself be happier
Speaker 2: about that. Also, just what a waste of energy and
Speaker 2: molecules and hormones anxiety is. So here's the deal. When
Speaker 2: I came out of it, I was like, all of
Speaker 2: my problems in life are solved. I've never felt more
Speaker 2: peaceful and confident and centered and grounded and full of love. Right,
Speaker 2: here's the thing that lasts for a bit, right, that
Speaker 2: lasts for weeks months. But then when things start to
Speaker 2: get challenging and you start to forget all those thoughts
Speaker 2: and how they felt in your body and your mind,
Speaker 2: and you start picking up old habits, then that can
Speaker 2: kind of dissipate. And so it's a reminder you have
Speaker 2: to actively remember that what you learned or what you saw,
Speaker 2: what you've got a chance to feel that good for
Speaker 2: a bit. What do you have to do to put
Speaker 2: those things in place, whether it's like having better boundaries,
Speaker 2: whether it's having more confidence in yourself, whether it's looking
Speaker 2: on people who are difficult in your life with more
Speaker 2: empathy or with maybe less empathy, depending on the relationship.
Speaker 2: So it's like you learn how good things can feel,
Speaker 2: and how like your essence is a competent and full
Speaker 2: of love and all of these things, and then it's
Speaker 2: just a matter of on the outside world doing all
Speaker 2: those things that get you to that place. And so
Speaker 2: that was my experience of it for me, super super transformative.
Speaker 2: I have thought of that trip every single day for
Speaker 2: the last couple of years. It's definitely one of the
Speaker 2: most impactful experiences of my life. I'm so glad that
Speaker 2: I didn't take sacred ethno botanical medicines in a setting
Speaker 2: that was cavalier. I think that they have a lot
Speaker 2: that they can teach you about how your own mind works,
Speaker 2: So just can those thoughts and that reframing can get
Speaker 2: to you in a much deeper way. Anyway, that is
Speaker 2: my story about it. Super transformative. I think about it
Speaker 2: all the time. I'm not afraid of death. I feel
Speaker 2: like whatever happens to you, your molecules become something else,
Speaker 2: your atoms become something else. Maybe I'll be a frog,
Speaker 2: maybe I'll turn into a plane. That would be a
Speaker 2: random choice, but it could happen, who knows. But whatever happens,
Speaker 2: you're just we're here for a relatively short time. Everyone's
Speaker 2: just a tiny little baby that wants to be loved.
Speaker 2: A lot of anger and fear can make people get
Speaker 2: a bit off track. But the really important thing is
Speaker 2: that you have to be much more kind to yourself,
Speaker 2: and when you are that way, you will be kinder
Speaker 2: to others. So that's my big rainbowy mystical trip. I
Speaker 2: can't stress enough that it's really important to talk to
Speaker 2: a doctor and do a ton of research. Make sure
Speaker 2: that you're not at risk for anything like psychosis or anxiety,
Speaker 2: cardiovascular stuff. Do not go into this lightly, is my suggestion.
Speaker 2: If you decide to do something like this. Also journal before,
Speaker 2: journal after. Just be very careful and no matter what,
Speaker 2: just try to take some of those lessons about being
Speaker 2: kinder to yourself and just like appreciating nature and time
Speaker 2: and all the things that are good around you. And anyway,
Speaker 2: I hope this helps, as I say, do the thing,
Speaker 2: make the project, do the art, text the crush, cut
Speaker 2: your hair, wear ugly shoes. If you like them, you
Speaker 2: are aren't anybody else, and that's great, so you don't
Speaker 2: have to be anyway. I hope you've enjoyed this two parter,
Speaker 2: this extra long secret. If this is your first episode
Speaker 2: of listening to ologies, the secrets are not usually this long.
Speaker 2: If you've listened to the end, congratulations for sticking it
Speaker 2: out with me, and sleep tight. We all love you. Byebye.
Speaker 5: Pacidermatology, homeology, crypto zoology, lithology, technology, meteorology, paratology, technology, seriology, selenology.
Speaker 3: That sounds intense.
Speaker 2: Get value.
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