WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Get value you can't argue with at Tesco with their

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<v Speaker 1>amazing club card prices. Have the perfect night in with

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<v Speaker 1>their finest frozen pizza meal deal. Get the finest frozen pizza,

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<v Speaker 1>chips and ice cream all for six euro. Like a

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<v Speaker 1>delicious spicy salami, hot honey and do you or Margarito

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<v Speaker 1>wood fired pizzas served up with their crispy junkie chips

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<v Speaker 1>and ice cream like sea sial de caramel or pistachio

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<v Speaker 1>for dessert.

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<v Speaker 2>Can't argue with that. Shelp in store or online Tesco.

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<v Speaker 1>Every little helps available in most stories, prices very in express.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, once again it's the lady eating berries off a

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<v Speaker 2>bush in the park alley. Ward. Here we are part

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<v Speaker 2>two of an episode six years in the making. Go

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<v Speaker 2>back to part one if you didn't start there, you'll

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<v Speaker 2>get all the basics. Do one and then you do

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<v Speaker 2>two in that order. Okay, So we are talking psychopharmacology, neurobiology, psychology, traumatology,

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<v Speaker 2>and so much more with one of the leading experts

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<v Speaker 2>in the field of psychedelics and hallucinogen research. So in

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<v Speaker 2>part one we learned about the chemical structure of hallucinaeens,

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<v Speaker 2>what receptors and networks of the brain they work in,

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<v Speaker 2>and if hallucinations or dreams, neuroplasticity, psychosis risks secret cia

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<v Speaker 2>shenanigans that killed even one of its closest allies. So

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<v Speaker 2>much more, and in this episode we're going to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about how hallucinogens are administered in the safest medical settings,

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<v Speaker 2>different strains of mushrooms, decriminalization status, some recent rulings. We'll

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<v Speaker 2>talk about cultivation dimensions, what's reality, how does one avoid barfing?

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<v Speaker 2>And so much more. But first, a huge thank you

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<v Speaker 2>to patrons of ologies who pay one dollar or more

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<v Speaker 2>a month and submit questions for the show beforehand. These

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<v Speaker 2>are wall to wall your questions. You can also support

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<v Speaker 2>ologies by wearing an Ology's shirt or a tote you

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<v Speaker 2>can tell a friend. Those shirts and totes are available

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<v Speaker 2>at ologiesmerch dot com or for zero dollars zero sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Feel free to leave us a review because they boost

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<v Speaker 2>the show so much and they make my day. Such

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<v Speaker 2>is this new one from Wildflower Soul, who were at

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<v Speaker 2>an animal shelter and while listening to the Cappy bearra

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<v Speaker 2>episode quote, it awakened a primal feeling in my guinea

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<v Speaker 2>pigs and they all started wheaking along like they were

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<v Speaker 2>Cappa bears. They were living their wild lives. Thank you,

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<v Speaker 2>everyone else lives short. Summer's here, cut banks, textra crush,

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<v Speaker 2>consult a doctor before doing any drugs. Let's get into it, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>So this very first question was all about access. Maureen

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<v Speaker 2>Flood asked how long until we reach the point of

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<v Speaker 2>being able to prescribe these to patients? Sarah Metsker and

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<v Speaker 2>Johnny Clark asked what is your professional opinion about legalization?

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<v Speaker 2>Kelly Dueling, Gregorious of thomsk Adam T Burns, Emma Scott,

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<v Speaker 2>and Brennan Hicks all wanted to know about legalization, and

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<v Speaker 2>Brenna wrote, just to speak, the FDA ruled against MDMA

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<v Speaker 2>for treatment of PTSD. Do you think this ruling will

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<v Speaker 2>affect the outcome of similar studies for shrooms? So let's

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<v Speaker 2>a your cues about set and setting, decriminalization, stone ape theory,

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<v Speaker 2>fMRI studies, neurodivergence, astrophysics, how to be a good trip sitter,

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<v Speaker 2>and my own experience following clinical guidelines for a big trip,

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<v Speaker 2>and more of your questions with a professor of Psychiatry

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<v Speaker 2>and Pediatrics at the UCLA School of Medicine and the

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<v Speaker 2>director of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the Harbor UCLA Medcenter,

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<v Speaker 2>co editor of the tome The Handbook of Medical Hallucinogens,

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<v Speaker 2>and psychedeliologist doctor Charles grow. A lot of people wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to know about access. People wanted to know, what's your

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<v Speaker 2>opinion on legalizing all hallucinogetic mushrooms? How do you feel

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<v Speaker 2>about Oregon recently legalizing it? Where are we at with it?

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<v Speaker 2>If someone wanted to do this, Like my psychiatrist is like,

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<v Speaker 2>just get a hold of some I so far I

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<v Speaker 2>haven't been arrested for talking about it, right right?

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<v Speaker 3>I knock what knock? Knock? Well.

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<v Speaker 4>Also, this whole situation maybe has changed in the last week,

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<v Speaker 4>given what we're learning about the MAPS hearing at FDA.

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<v Speaker 4>It was very, very negative. They were highly critical of MAPS.

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<v Speaker 4>So well, let's extend over to psilocybin.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know so MAPS side note stands for the

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<v Speaker 2>Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies and it's this nonprofit. It's

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<v Speaker 2>based in the US, and it focuses on research for

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<v Speaker 2>MDMA for PTSD, ayahuasca, for addiction in PTSD, medical cannabis, LSD,

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<v Speaker 2>and psilocybin for anxiety and depression. And just days before

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<v Speaker 2>we sat down to record this, an FDA panel rejected

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<v Speaker 2>research for MDMA aid to therapy for PTSD, which is

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<v Speaker 2>a huge blow to researchers and psychedeliologists, if you will,

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<v Speaker 2>And according to this recent New York Times article about it,

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<v Speaker 2>the panel wasn't convinced that the benefits outweigh the risks

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<v Speaker 2>in MDMASS therapy, and they cited these potential cardiovascular effects,

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<v Speaker 2>but also called into question how blinded the methodology is,

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<v Speaker 2>given that subjects can usually tell whether they have been

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<v Speaker 2>given a dud or whether they are chewing their cheeks

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<v Speaker 2>and rolling on molly in front of a guy in

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<v Speaker 2>a lab coat. So it was a nine to two

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<v Speaker 2>vote total bummer and other experts and cheerleaders of this therapy,

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<v Speaker 2>including some sexual assault survivors who showed up to speak

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<v Speaker 2>about how revolutionary the therapy was for them, have been

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<v Speaker 2>pretty disappointed. Now, it should also be noted that the

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<v Speaker 2>FDA doesn't regulate talk therapy at all, so it's a

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<v Speaker 2>tough thing to regulate. It's a tough thing to study. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>what does this mean for access to hallucinogenic or psychedelic therapies. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>criminalization varies not only country to country, but state to

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<v Speaker 2>state and city to city. Now Oregons do criminalization law

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<v Speaker 2>went into effect in January twenty twenty three, and Denver

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<v Speaker 2>has a green light, and California passed some resolutions in

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<v Speaker 2>Santa Cruz and Berkeley and San Francisco marking psychedelics as

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<v Speaker 2>the lowest law enforcement priority or like don't worry about

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<v Speaker 2>it now. Back in twenty nineteen, Oakland passed a similar

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<v Speaker 2>resolution stating that no city funds or resources can go

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<v Speaker 2>to the enforcement of laws imposing criminal penalties for the

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<v Speaker 2>use and possession of entheogenic plants by adults. So someplaces

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<v Speaker 2>more loosey goosey than others when it comes to eating

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<v Speaker 2>sixty million year old fungus that you can pick out

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<v Speaker 2>of a cow patty if you know what you're doing.

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<v Speaker 4>I am very interested in seeing what happens with Oregon.

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<v Speaker 4>My admonition to them would be be as careful as

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<v Speaker 4>you can, and pay attention to safety parameters and keep

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<v Speaker 4>an eye out for ethical improprieties, because that'll bring the

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<v Speaker 4>whole house down. These are such valuable experiences there, the

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<v Speaker 4>gifts of the gods. They come to us from the earth,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, and if use wisely in a proper context,

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<v Speaker 4>with proper oversight and in moderation, not taking that heroic dose.

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<v Speaker 4>Most people, I don't hope people. Most people, whether they

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<v Speaker 4>experience fairly well with a lot of important knowledge and insight.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting. If you'd told me when I was in

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<v Speaker 2>high school that there'd be weed stores everywhere and yoga

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<v Speaker 2>moms selling teach Sea tinctures, I would not believe it is.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's interesting to see how much the legalization of

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<v Speaker 2>marijuana in so many states might pave the way. However,

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<v Speaker 2>when is like MRC and fies are going to come

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<v Speaker 2>in and well, in the case of it.

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<v Speaker 4>The problem with marijuana legalizing is we now have to

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<v Speaker 4>also deal with the synthetic cannabinoids we need to deal with.

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<v Speaker 4>It's kind of the free based product wax.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 4>I've seen people get quite psychotic, especially young people who

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<v Speaker 4>were predisposed to manic depressive illness. They would get manic,

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<v Speaker 4>they get psychotic, and it wasn't was smoking just weed

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<v Speaker 4>per se.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, doctor Grobe said, there's also laboratory synthesized cannabinoid spice.

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<v Speaker 2>It's called which seems very on the nose, or there

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<v Speaker 2>are strains treated with a solvent to create a wax,

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<v Speaker 2>and their strength is often vastly underestimated in case you're

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<v Speaker 2>looking to elevate your heart rate or have a massive

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<v Speaker 2>panic attack if you or me. But when it comes

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<v Speaker 2>to psychedelics, So.

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<v Speaker 4>One thing I think that's desperately needed in Colorado and

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<v Speaker 4>Oregon is good public education is going to be open

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<v Speaker 4>to the public. There are going to be a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of people who don't know much of anything about this.

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<v Speaker 4>They need knowledge, they need to be instructed. Ideally, you

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<v Speaker 4>would have legally sanctioned centers to facilitate psychedelic experience in

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<v Speaker 4>the presence of trained and certified facilitators.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. Josie Rutherford and Jasmine Leo wanted to know about

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<v Speaker 2>potential negative effects like remembered trauma falsely or truthfully remembered,

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<v Speaker 2>and Brooklyn Baron, Laura Wood, April Carter, and Julia Lorraine asked,

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<v Speaker 2>in Julia's words, I'm so excited for this, Okay, can

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<v Speaker 2>you ask theologists about the incidents of psychosis induced by

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<v Speaker 2>psilocybin and also if there are ways to prevent it.

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<v Speaker 2>Some folks wanted to know, how would one know before

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<v Speaker 2>if they embark on this, if they would be prone

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<v Speaker 2>to psychosis or prone to.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, are you at high risk?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, you look at your own history, were there any

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<v Speaker 4>preceding episodes where reality testing was in question? Or what

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<v Speaker 4>about your biological family history, your biological genetic history. If

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<v Speaker 4>it's loaded with people with bipolar disorder, there I believe

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<v Speaker 4>is significant risk. Now that they may weather it just fine,

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<v Speaker 4>but they're at higher risk than the next person who

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<v Speaker 4>did not have such a history in his or her family.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you're looking for someone to evaluate if this

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<v Speaker 2>might be a good option for you, how does one

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<v Speaker 2>go about that? Now? Some patrons Jasmine Alexandra and Jelica

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<v Speaker 2>Stanley Eva Jisova and Kate Munker and Wailo asked if

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<v Speaker 2>it's safe to self administer, either unaccompanied or with a

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<v Speaker 2>friendly trip sitter, or are there other researchy means to

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<v Speaker 2>do it allow? I wanted to know where can you

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<v Speaker 2>find a trained medical doctor or clinical trial to join,

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<v Speaker 2>Oh God, or a sitter.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's a tough one to answer, because I guess

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<v Speaker 4>it's legal now in Oregon as far as I'm aware,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's approaching legality in Colorado. I'm not sure where

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<v Speaker 4>they are with that process. But outside of those two states,

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<v Speaker 4>like you you had to play your luck at knock

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<v Speaker 4>on open, Yeah, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Front meet someone in a parking lot.

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<v Speaker 3>Walk through the woods.

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<v Speaker 4>I saw this great you know Paul Stamitz, the famous

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<v Speaker 4>ethno mycologist. So I'm going to talk on a great

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<v Speaker 4>slide of a rural Oregon police station. And it was

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<v Speaker 4>this expansive front lawn and it was proliferating with with

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<v Speaker 4>with silicide mushrooms. So how did they get there? Whether

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<v Speaker 4>it was it the spirits directing the spores to settle

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<v Speaker 4>down there, or then you have some wise guy kids

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<v Speaker 4>who thought this would be a lot of fun to do.

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<v Speaker 2>Just confiscated mushrooms just for like this is a good

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<v Speaker 2>O's places. And last week we talked about how CIA

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<v Speaker 2>operations to use LSD as a truth serum or in

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<v Speaker 2>warfare disproportionately experimented on people of color, sometimes in cruel

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<v Speaker 2>and inhumane ways. And in the paper Don't Kill My

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<v Speaker 2>buzz Man, explaining the criminalization of psychedelic drugs, political scientist

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<v Speaker 2>Conrad Sprowl of the University of organ explains that in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty eight, possession of LSD was banned by the

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<v Speaker 2>US federal government. In nineteen seventy there was this Controlled

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<v Speaker 2>Substances Act that classified LSD and other psychedelics as Schedule

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<v Speaker 2>IE drugs, signifying that they had no medical potential and

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<v Speaker 2>the highest possible potential for abuse, and then in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventy one through the un psychedelics were placed in the

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<v Speaker 2>strictest category like above cocaine, alongside heroin. And these bands

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<v Speaker 2>largely arose from this fallout with MK Ultra discussed in

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<v Speaker 2>Part one, and this type of moral panic that was

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<v Speaker 2>counter to the counterculture of the hippie or now boomer

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<v Speaker 2>generation who were not keen to go fight in wars

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<v Speaker 2>they did not agree with. They rebelled against that, and

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<v Speaker 2>then this moral panic began. And Sprowl continues that no

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<v Speaker 2>discussion of drugs in the US can be complete without

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<v Speaker 2>addressing race, which has been entwined with drug rhetoric from

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning. They write, and that the racialization of the

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<v Speaker 2>drug problem and the resultant harmed to communities of color

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<v Speaker 2>has only increased, with non white defendants convicted of drug

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<v Speaker 2>crimes at massively disproportionate rates. Sprowl notes and In case

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<v Speaker 2>you do not live in the United States, let me

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<v Speaker 2>just remind you that our healthcare systems and our prison

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<v Speaker 2>systems are for profit. So it does pay to do drugs,

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<v Speaker 2>but it just pays somebody else.

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<v Speaker 3>Well.

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<v Speaker 2>Mattzicato and Josie Brutherford, Aaron White, Megan Morgan all had questions.

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<v Speaker 2>Douche rooms have to be grown in the wild and

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<v Speaker 2>harvested or can they be farmed as such?

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<v Speaker 4>No, they can be cultivated. In fact, the ones who

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<v Speaker 4>developed the first procedure for this were the McKenna brothers. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>back in the early mid seventies, So just.

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<v Speaker 2>A quick side note. Terrence McKenna was this mystic and

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<v Speaker 2>ethroboticist and after trips to the Amazon, stumbling into this

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<v Speaker 2>field of psilocybin mushrooms. He worked with his brother to

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<v Speaker 2>cultivate them using just home DIY equipment, and in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventy six they first published The Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide,

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<v Speaker 2>which was this seminal handbook that changed the accessibility to hallucinogens.

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<v Speaker 2>You could just grow them in the garage, and he

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<v Speaker 2>took a lot of trips. He wrote a lot about

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<v Speaker 2>mind expansion, some theories about time being fractals and the

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<v Speaker 2>world and time ending in twenty twelve. Unfortunately he was

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<v Speaker 2>not here to see that it's pretty much the same

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<v Speaker 2>but worse, as he died of this aggressive rain tumor

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<v Speaker 2>at the turn of the century in two thousand at

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<v Speaker 2>the age of fifty three. But Timothy Leary said that

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<v Speaker 2>he was one of the most important people on the

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<v Speaker 2>planet because of Terence McKenna's work in cultivating them. And

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<v Speaker 2>so I understand that there's like Golden Teacher, and there's penis,

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<v Speaker 2>and even those are like different strains of mushrooms. Do

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<v Speaker 2>any of them have an effect? Some people wanted to know,

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<v Speaker 2>like Megan Morrian wanted to know how are dose is determined.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, you know, you like to take a compound where

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<v Speaker 4>there's some history of people having experience with it. That

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<v Speaker 4>way you can gauge what the proper dose is. If

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<v Speaker 4>it's super potent and will trigger a massive reaction that

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<v Speaker 4>only you know, two grams of mushrooms, you want to

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<v Speaker 4>contain the dosing. On the other hand, if they're old

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<v Speaker 4>and they're kind of stale, yeah, and they've been exposed

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<v Speaker 4>to the elements and they're not as strong, it may

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<v Speaker 4>take you have to be careful about this, but it

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<v Speaker 4>may take a higher dose.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you've ever tried to dive into this world

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<v Speaker 2>and you're like, what's with the golden penis teacher, I'm confused.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's run it down right quick. So there are different

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<v Speaker 2>strains of the same species of psilozepin mushroom, and the

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<v Speaker 2>most common strains are Golden Teacher, which has a slim

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<v Speaker 2>stock and an umbrella cap. It's said to be more gentle,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of a more introspective experience. Penis envy is a

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<v Speaker 2>very long looking shroom. Clearly it has a thick stock

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<v Speaker 2>and a little phallic hat and according to one independent lab,

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<v Speaker 2>the penis envy strain had double the potency of their

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<v Speaker 2>Golden Emperor, which was a derivative of a Golden Teacher.

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<v Speaker 2>So different strains can vary. And for Libytamco, who asked

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<v Speaker 2>to the stocks versus the caps really have a difference

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<v Speaker 2>in potency, I've heard the caps are significantly stronger. The

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<v Speaker 2>research team found that the cap of the Golden Emperor

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<v Speaker 2>mushroom was more potent than the stem, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>the inverse for the penis envy strain that had a

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<v Speaker 2>more powerful shaft. If you will, so tip of the

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<v Speaker 2>cap to them for studying that and how they're cultivated

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<v Speaker 2>can also make a difference, apparently. And there was this

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<v Speaker 2>thing called this Psychedelic Cup competition. It was held last

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<v Speaker 2>fall in Denver, of course, and different species and strains

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<v Speaker 2>were awarded with things like the most enviable or potency,

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<v Speaker 2>and one microbiologist shared the growing hack that water absorbing

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<v Speaker 2>packs kind of like what you find at the bottom

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<v Speaker 2>of like a beef jerky pouch, but bigger can help

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<v Speaker 2>keep mushrooms more potent as water breaks down psilocybin, noting

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<v Speaker 2>that blue streaks on your stocks means psilocybin's breaking down

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<v Speaker 2>and you've kind of already lost it. What so yes?

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<v Speaker 2>First time question asker Renee Wanger, who wanted to know

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<v Speaker 2>is their shelf life and what happens if they go bad?

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<v Speaker 2>How do they go stale?

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<v Speaker 3>Like?

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<v Speaker 2>Because I was I was microdosing with some old ones.

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<v Speaker 2>It didn't feel much. I had a friend, we got

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<v Speaker 2>some We're very well done. I gave a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>to a friend again, please nobody arrest me, and she

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<v Speaker 2>did like a gram and she was like, I was

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<v Speaker 2>like tripping. She's like, I think these are really strong. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>where does the potency go?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, what are the conditions out of jag potency? Or

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<v Speaker 4>Dave Nichols, who's kind of this eminent medicinal chemists or

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<v Speaker 4>natural product chemists, maybe the world's leading scientists in this area.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, he talks.

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<v Speaker 4>If you want to keep them fresh, you keep them

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<v Speaker 4>in a dark, cool environment. Oh, so that means if

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<v Speaker 4>you expose them to sunlight, just leave it lying around,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's maybe the climactic conditions are kind of hot

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<v Speaker 4>and humid, it's likely going to lose some of its potency.

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<v Speaker 2>And in a twenty twenty study stability of psilocybin and

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<v Speaker 2>its four analogs and the biomass of the psychotropic mushroom

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<v Speaker 2>Psilicybe cubensis, researchers stashed some shrooms in different conditions and

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<v Speaker 2>found that after a week things were still pretty fresh.

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<v Speaker 2>The changes in concentrations were negligible, but after two months

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<v Speaker 2>and on of storage, nearly all of the alkaloids were reduced,

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<v Speaker 2>and the bags that fared the best were stored in

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<v Speaker 2>the dark at around twenty degrees celsius or room temperature.

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<v Speaker 2>But don't store them too cold, because fresh mushrooms frozen

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<v Speaker 2>to negative eighty degree celsius or negative one ten fahrenheit

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<v Speaker 2>had the highest degree of chemical staleness, if you will. Also,

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<v Speaker 2>I learned in this episode that psilocybin mushrooms have been

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<v Speaker 2>around for about sixty five million years, kind of coinciding

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<v Speaker 2>with the timeline of the great asteroid that killed the

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<v Speaker 2>dinos and the KPg boundary layer and the alkaloids that

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<v Speaker 2>trip us out may have been selected through evolution because

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<v Speaker 2>of insect or gastropod munchers, but evidence on that is debated.

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<v Speaker 2>What is not up for debate is that most people

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<v Speaker 2>don't want a bad trip or a kaleidoscope of brain terror,

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<v Speaker 2>and patron Maria Wanman said that they've heard horror stories

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<v Speaker 2>about getting stuck in a bad trip, and Josie Rutherford, Kanyie,

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<v Speaker 2>Connie Boboni, Tom Brady, and Kevin Wildermouth asked about the

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<v Speaker 2>old set and setting meaning mindset and going into a

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<v Speaker 2>good one and setting as in an environment that feels

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<v Speaker 2>safe and secure, as well as raina'm Beck. At the

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<v Speaker 2>sac seacrast scientists Abby and Maria Wayman. A lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people also wanted to know about set and setting, but

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<v Speaker 2>Raina wanted to know what happens during a bad trip

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<v Speaker 2>or Abby wants to know does a bad first trip

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<v Speaker 2>mean you're doomed to never have a good trip? Like

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<v Speaker 2>what is set? And setting?

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<v Speaker 3>What I teach?

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<v Speaker 4>You know, I'm actually talking on occasion with some of

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<v Speaker 4>the young psychiatrists at UCLA who are very interested in yes,

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<v Speaker 4>and I tell them and I'm actually able to demonstrate

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<v Speaker 4>it once and we did an experimental session with a patient.

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<v Speaker 4>If someone starts to get very anxious, very agitated, and

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<v Speaker 4>somewhat disoriented, like what happened with this a few months

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<v Speaker 4>ago with a subject, the most helpful thing you can

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<v Speaker 4>do you get their attention and you say, I know

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<v Speaker 4>you're having a challenging experience right now, but you need

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<v Speaker 4>to know this is time limited. That if we just

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<v Speaker 4>wait for you know, some minutes or maybe a couple

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<v Speaker 4>of hours, you will return to your normative sense of self.

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<v Speaker 4>Because the scariest thing in a bad trip is oh

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<v Speaker 4>my god, I've done something to myself. I will never

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<v Speaker 4>be myself again, I will never find myself again. So

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<v Speaker 4>it's important to dispel that. So we had this subject

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<v Speaker 4>too was get you know, the model was it was

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<v Speaker 4>open label, so we knew what they were getting. The

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<v Speaker 4>first session, he got ten milligrams, as we.

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<v Speaker 2>Covered in part one, on a big trip is about

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five milligrams of straight synthesized standardized psilocybin in pill form,

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<v Speaker 2>and a microdose, on the other hand, would be maybe

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<v Speaker 2>three grams. So ten milligrams is between a giant and

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<v Speaker 2>a tiny dose.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a depressed patient.

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<v Speaker 4>And a month later he got twenty five. And my

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<v Speaker 4>junior associates were after the first session, which guy did great,

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<v Speaker 4>they said, oh, this is this is a snap, but

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<v Speaker 4>I said, no, wait for session two. Twenty five milligrams

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<v Speaker 4>is going to be far more challenging, and it certainly was,

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<v Speaker 4>and so he stood up. He's looking kind of frantic

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<v Speaker 4>looking around. It looks like he's feeling trapped. And one

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<v Speaker 4>problem was between where he was sitting and the door

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<v Speaker 4>I was sitting, so he would have to go over me.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know want that to happened, So I figured time.

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<v Speaker 3>For me to talk. So I gave him my wrap

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<v Speaker 3>and it helped. It's gonna be okay.

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<v Speaker 2>You'll see that.

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<v Speaker 4>He calmed down, sat down a couple minutes later, big smile,

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<v Speaker 4>and he said, this is great.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, I can see so much.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, someone told me before mine. If you start

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<v Speaker 2>to get scared, think of it like a sign to

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<v Speaker 2>go toward that thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Way, Yeah, curious, ask it.

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<v Speaker 4>If you see something scary, like a monster or something,

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<v Speaker 4>ask it, what can I learn?

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<v Speaker 3>What can I be from encountering you? What can you

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<v Speaker 3>tell me? What do I need to know?

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<v Speaker 4>That's what Ralph Metzner used to teach. He was one

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<v Speaker 4>of the most esteemed authorities in this area that I've known.

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<v Speaker 4>He was a great friend. He died in I think

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<v Speaker 4>twenty eighteen or so. He was a master at guiding

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<v Speaker 4>people through these experiences and the way if you got

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<v Speaker 4>into a scary place, don't run away.

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<v Speaker 3>That'll just intensify the fear.

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<v Speaker 4>Head towards it in a calm, deliberate way, and ask

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<v Speaker 4>may I have your attention?

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<v Speaker 3>And what can I learn? What do you have to

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<v Speaker 3>teach me?

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<v Speaker 4>And then it's remarkable what starts to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a good allegory for life too. If something

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<v Speaker 2>starts to intimidate you, it's maybe a sign if you're

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<v Speaker 2>scared to do something or anxious about something. Looking at

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<v Speaker 2>that of why am I scared of? This is always

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<v Speaker 2>good now a lot of you shared the question will

402
00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:13.039
<v Speaker 2>I cease being me in the moment or after? Why

403
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:17.079
<v Speaker 2>are they potentially life alterating in beautiful and sometimes dangerous ways,

404
00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:21.119
<v Speaker 2>with patrons Luke La Femina asking will it actually make

405
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<v Speaker 2>me unsad? And these changes were also on the mines

406
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<v Speaker 2>of Chelsea Wick, Daniel Apdal, Natalie Roussoud, Maria Zuerrevleva Froudi, Mursam,

407
00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:32.240
<v Speaker 2>tyson Quist, PAFKA thirty four, Linnen Hung and Carli Delson

408
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<v Speaker 2>along with Jadine Lannon wanders to know what is psychedelic

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<v Speaker 2>induced ego death?

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<v Speaker 4>When people talk about what is that, well, ego is

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<v Speaker 4>our sense of self and on some occasions, particularly early on,

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<v Speaker 4>particularly with the high dose, people feel that their sense

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00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:53.079
<v Speaker 4>of self is fragmenting and they lose that sense of

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<v Speaker 4>continuity with who they are and it's felt to be

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<v Speaker 4>an integral part of the death rebirth process.

416
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.599
<v Speaker 2>And you can see our episodes on panatology and quasi

417
00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:06.599
<v Speaker 2>thanatology if you have a lot of existential dread around death.

418
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.920
<v Speaker 2>We also have one on quantum montology with an astrophysicist

419
00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:13.960
<v Speaker 2>who asks what Israel? And we have a scotohilology one

420
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:16.640
<v Speaker 2>with a dark matter expert. All of those really changed

421
00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:19.759
<v Speaker 2>the way I viewed being alive and being dead, as

422
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:22.920
<v Speaker 2>did my trip. But what does a psychedeliologists think of

423
00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:27.200
<v Speaker 2>these aspects? Kurdish Takahashi asked, is there any evidence of

424
00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:33.079
<v Speaker 2>hallucinogenic therapy patients discovering connections to a spirit realm and

425
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.200
<v Speaker 2>bringing back divine messages for the betterment of humanity? Is

426
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:40.720
<v Speaker 2>there evidence of that? And Animel and jasmin Ley, they

427
00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:43.440
<v Speaker 2>both wanted to know a few people asked about dimensions.

428
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:47.519
<v Speaker 2>Animel asked, you, mushroom trips open us up to other dimensions?

429
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.240
<v Speaker 2>What even is objective reality?

430
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.759
<v Speaker 4>Oh? Well, well, hopefully one question it too much because

431
00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:58.440
<v Speaker 4>we all have to come back to normative consciousness and function. Yeah,

432
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:00.079
<v Speaker 4>so we don't want to get too carried away. And

433
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.720
<v Speaker 4>how strange and unusual this is. But you have a

434
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:06.039
<v Speaker 4>little glimmer. You have a period of time, you know,

435
00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:08.680
<v Speaker 4>maybe some minutes, maybe some hours where you could look

436
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:12.400
<v Speaker 4>into the other side, and sometimes astonishing things happen, like

437
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.480
<v Speaker 4>you're approached by a deceased.

438
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:16.359
<v Speaker 3>Relative, close relative.

439
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.279
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, maybe one where there was some unfinished business or

440
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:22.400
<v Speaker 4>some questions you needed to ask.

441
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, has it made you start a question, what is time?

442
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:27.839
<v Speaker 2>Is time even linear?

443
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:28.039
<v Speaker 3>Like?

444
00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.440
<v Speaker 2>I interviewed a quantum montologist who studies what Israel as

445
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:34.119
<v Speaker 2>an astrophysicist, and just about how much we don't know?

446
00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:37.720
<v Speaker 2>And does your experience of watching other people and having

447
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.119
<v Speaker 2>gone through it yourself, does that make you question how

448
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:41.720
<v Speaker 2>much we know about reality?

449
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:42.519
<v Speaker 3>Well?

450
00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:46.559
<v Speaker 4>I mean there are some astrophysicists and the like who

451
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:52.720
<v Speaker 4>got their insight while along psychedelics. Kerrie Mullis who invented

452
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:54.640
<v Speaker 4>these genetic screens.

453
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:56.880
<v Speaker 2>Just to side note, Kerry Mulis is a seventy four

454
00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:59.480
<v Speaker 2>year old biochemist who spent a lot of his undergrad

455
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.680
<v Speaker 2>hours at Berkeley making LSD in the lab, and he

456
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:07.160
<v Speaker 2>said that his trips were more impactful than any coursework

457
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:08.880
<v Speaker 2>he'd done. What happened to this guy?

458
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:09.519
<v Speaker 1>Oh?

459
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:13.880
<v Speaker 2>On LSD he visualized the mechanics of PCR testing and

460
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:16.680
<v Speaker 2>later won a Nobel Prize for it. In real life,

461
00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:17.519
<v Speaker 2>that wasn't a trip.

462
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:20.119
<v Speaker 3>A very prominent individual.

463
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:25.880
<v Speaker 4>He was on a documentary basically saying I took LSD

464
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.880
<v Speaker 4>and that's when I saw this happening. Hmm. It's kind

465
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:32.839
<v Speaker 4>of like the discover of the Benzene ring, a nineteenth

466
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:37.880
<v Speaker 4>century German chemist Keckle who had a dream of a snake,

467
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:41.880
<v Speaker 4>and then the snake bites the tail of another snake,

468
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.359
<v Speaker 4>and they keep biting the tails until it's a six

469
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:47.039
<v Speaker 4>sided hexagon.

470
00:25:47.559 --> 00:25:50.839
<v Speaker 2>Physicist Richard Feynman was also said to dabble. I'm sure

471
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.160
<v Speaker 2>he was not alone in his field nuts.

472
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:56.519
<v Speaker 4>So that's interesting. So the physicists, I think they're very

473
00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:59.119
<v Speaker 4>engaged with this, and I'm sure some of the more

474
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:02.920
<v Speaker 4>prominent physicist had some first hand experience. It's Stephen Hawking.

475
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:05.319
<v Speaker 4>I don't know, but you never know. I know that

476
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:09.559
<v Speaker 4>Carl Sagan was quite impacted by psychedelics. His best friend

477
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:13.000
<v Speaker 4>growing up was Lester Grinspoone, a Harvard psychiatrist who wrote

478
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:17.119
<v Speaker 4>a great book called Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, published in nineteen eighty,

479
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:20.720
<v Speaker 4>and it was basically a compilation of all the psychedelic

480
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:24.680
<v Speaker 4>research that occurred up to that point. And Lester told me,

481
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:27.640
<v Speaker 4>and he also spoke publicly that his good friend Carl

482
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.960
<v Speaker 4>Sagan had had a number of psychedelic experiences which are

483
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:31.640
<v Speaker 4>of great values.

484
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:34.279
<v Speaker 2>Now that makes sense, that makes sense, and what if

485
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:37.119
<v Speaker 2>your brain is already a little different. Lizzy Booth wanted

486
00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.240
<v Speaker 2>to know how hallucinogens affect people with ADHD or other

487
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:45.799
<v Speaker 2>neurodivergent people. Mycologist Tony Wildman peregrine, Ava Haisova, rub eating

488
00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:48.920
<v Speaker 2>dog hair for a Living Kelly McCain and Aaron Donnie

489
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.440
<v Speaker 2>Muller for some question. Asker wanted to know a little

490
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.480
<v Speaker 2>bit as an autistic person. I'm fascinated by how physical

491
00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:57.960
<v Speaker 2>difference in the brain structure, such as reduced neural pruning

492
00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:03.119
<v Speaker 2>manifest and they say if those brain difference produced different

493
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:07.759
<v Speaker 2>effects and trips. I know you've studied MDMA and autistic people, anything,

494
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.400
<v Speaker 2>anything that you observed doing those studies In terms.

495
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.759
<v Speaker 4>Of well, I think we had some success in treating

496
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:19.839
<v Speaker 4>their incapacitating social anxiety. These are adults on the autism spectrum,

497
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:24.720
<v Speaker 4>very bright. A bunch of them had done well academically

498
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:27.279
<v Speaker 4>through high school and then went off to college and

499
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:31.519
<v Speaker 4>completely collapse and couldn't handle really the social scenes. Yeah,

500
00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:34.480
<v Speaker 4>the social pressure. So they went home and couldn't get

501
00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.279
<v Speaker 4>out of their room. We saw with our patients who

502
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:41.400
<v Speaker 4>received two experiences that they were able to move beyond

503
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:44.799
<v Speaker 4>that incapacitating social anxiety and function, get back out in

504
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:50.039
<v Speaker 4>the world, get degrees, get jobs, It was actually quite impressive,

505
00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:51.839
<v Speaker 4>and I think it really tells us that there's a.

506
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:55.920
<v Speaker 3>It opened me up to the neurodiversity.

507
00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:00.960
<v Speaker 4>Movement that we shouldn't necessarily pathologize right people with autism,

508
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:04.359
<v Speaker 4>that they just have a different style of understanding and

509
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.359
<v Speaker 4>of living in the world, and we need to be

510
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:08.119
<v Speaker 4>we need to learn from that.

511
00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:11.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. Yeah, And for more on this, you

512
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:14.480
<v Speaker 2>can see his twenty eighteen paper Reduction in Social Anxiety

513
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:19.119
<v Speaker 2>after MDMA assisted Psychotherapy with autistic Adults, a randomized, double blind,

514
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:23.119
<v Speaker 2>placebo controlled pilot study which found that participants in the

515
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:27.279
<v Speaker 2>MDMA group, which was administered twice during two eight hour sessions,

516
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:31.440
<v Speaker 2>showed a significant improvement on Leebuitz social anxiety scale scores,

517
00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:35.160
<v Speaker 2>and it held up or continued to gradually increase even

518
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:37.599
<v Speaker 2>six months from the trial. Is there any way to

519
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:42.720
<v Speaker 2>study if something changes structurally or chemically in people who trip,

520
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:45.839
<v Speaker 2>Like I imagine putting someone who's tripping on mushrooms in

521
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:49.480
<v Speaker 2>an fMRI machine would be a little bit challenging.

522
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:50.880
<v Speaker 3>For that would be very challenging.

523
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:56.839
<v Speaker 4>There's some scary stories about someone kind of getting very

524
00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:02.319
<v Speaker 4>anxious asking to be removed from the scanner. Then saying

525
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:04.400
<v Speaker 4>he didn't want to go back in, and getting a

526
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.119
<v Speaker 4>lot of pressure from the investigators that he did need

527
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:10.000
<v Speaker 4>to go back in because he would hurt science if

528
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:12.119
<v Speaker 4>he did it, and that that's not the guilt.

529
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:13.839
<v Speaker 3>Guilt tripped it back in.

530
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.240
<v Speaker 4>But I think that's a very challenging place. You know,

531
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:20.920
<v Speaker 4>you're you hear that clanking noise, you're you're immobilized pretty much.

532
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:26.279
<v Speaker 4>It's very claustrophobic. You know, psychedelics can be challenging under

533
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:28.279
<v Speaker 4>the most optimal condition putting them.

534
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:31.960
<v Speaker 3>In an MRI scanner. Yeah, it's not an optimal setting.

535
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:36.640
<v Speaker 2>Terrible. Emily Hebert, Hannah Harram DTL One of One, Caitlin Tindale,

536
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:39.839
<v Speaker 2>Julia s Trevor Ogborn, Josh Jones, Megan Morgan all had

537
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.960
<v Speaker 2>nausea or why does it affect my guts or body?

538
00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:45.880
<v Speaker 2>In rumbley tumbly ways, Joe Porfido wants to know, not

539
00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:48.640
<v Speaker 2>asking for a friend, but the nausea. I will sometimes

540
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.079
<v Speaker 2>consume with food and I think it helps. And Bethany

541
00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:55.160
<v Speaker 2>b had a culinary query asking can certain foods or

542
00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:58.000
<v Speaker 2>drinks eating them during a prior affect the way the

543
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:03.359
<v Speaker 2>experience goes. People asked about out why does pelocybin make

544
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:10.680
<v Speaker 2>people nauseated? And why does acid like something acidic change

545
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:12.160
<v Speaker 2>how it affects you.

546
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:16.319
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, I really haven't observed a lot that much

547
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:19.880
<v Speaker 4>in the way of GI symptoms people who've taken psilocybin.

548
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:23.279
<v Speaker 4>I've had subjects tell me that taking the synthetic psilocybin

549
00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:27.440
<v Speaker 4>felt like a cleaner experience, like guess intestinal wise than

550
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:28.680
<v Speaker 4>eating a mushroom.

551
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:29.519
<v Speaker 2>Oh interesting.

552
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:29.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

553
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.440
<v Speaker 4>Where I hear much more about a GI effects is ayahuasca.

554
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh God, I have friends that have done that.

555
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:37.279
<v Speaker 3>That's very challenging.

556
00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:39.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but it's an important part of the process, and

557
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.160
<v Speaker 4>they don't look at it as vomiting, you know, which

558
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.079
<v Speaker 4>is bad. We'd look at it as we're conditioned to

559
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:45.920
<v Speaker 4>look at it as a bad thing. They look at

560
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:49.079
<v Speaker 4>it as a purge la perga, you know, where they

561
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:53.000
<v Speaker 4>will get rid of all the negativity and they visualize

562
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.680
<v Speaker 4>all the negative stuff they're they're getting out of their system.

563
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I know someone who facilitates those and she talking

564
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:02.559
<v Speaker 2>about just like the sweet sound of people barfing into

565
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:06.960
<v Speaker 2>buckets means that they're like healing, and that's a real reframe.

566
00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:07.359
<v Speaker 3>And that's great.

567
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:10.160
<v Speaker 4>But then what people need to understand is at a

568
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:13.920
<v Speaker 4>certain point when you're wretching repeatedly, you've already brought up

569
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:16.480
<v Speaker 4>everything there is to bring up, but you still have

570
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:20.160
<v Speaker 4>this wretch reflex. You got to use a little willpower

571
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:23.920
<v Speaker 4>to stifle it. Yeah, and to just settle back down,

572
00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:27.839
<v Speaker 4>because you know you're on a loop. It's not of

573
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:31.559
<v Speaker 4>any value to you, and it's disruptive to other people around.

574
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:31.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

575
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:35.680
<v Speaker 2>I remember encountering a little bit of nausea, and I

576
00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:38.160
<v Speaker 2>remember having read like just tell yourself, like, it's okay,

577
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:41.200
<v Speaker 2>it's okay, body, we can keep this in. It's chill,

578
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:42.519
<v Speaker 2>it's medicine, don't worry about it.

579
00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:45.000
<v Speaker 3>It's okay to let it out too, okay to let

580
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:45.240
<v Speaker 3>it go.

581
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:49.119
<v Speaker 2>I wonder too about animals. Francis Hirst, Rudebaker and a

582
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:51.759
<v Speaker 2>bunch of people Jamie Denny Ryde, the Tiger and Hazel.

583
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:54.720
<v Speaker 2>First time question asker wanted to know do animals react

584
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:55.599
<v Speaker 2>to psilocybin?

585
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:01.200
<v Speaker 4>Well, there's a book in the eighties early nineties by

586
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:05.279
<v Speaker 4>a UCLA psychologist named Ron Siegel, and that was the

587
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:08.400
<v Speaker 4>whole premise of the book, which was to make observations

588
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:13.200
<v Speaker 4>of animals in the wild, you know, accessing psychedelic plants

589
00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:17.440
<v Speaker 4>and then making observations what happens. Siegel was a little controversial,

590
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:20.720
<v Speaker 4>but I forget the name of the loo up, Yeah, yeah,

591
00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:21.480
<v Speaker 4>Ron Siegel.

592
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:25.000
<v Speaker 2>That book was called Fire in the Brain, Clinical Tales

593
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:28.799
<v Speaker 2>of Hallucination. And just as a side note, Ron Siegel

594
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:31.240
<v Speaker 2>was considered by Oliver Sachs and many others to be

595
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:35.119
<v Speaker 2>one of the foremost experts on hallucinations, and as a

596
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:39.319
<v Speaker 2>psychopharmacologist living in la he was a witness in the

597
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:43.440
<v Speaker 2>trial against actor Robert Blake, who was accused of hiring

598
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.720
<v Speaker 2>someone to kill his wife, and sometime during the testimony,

599
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:49.960
<v Speaker 2>doctor Siegel discussed the use of drugs on mental states

600
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:53.039
<v Speaker 2>and casually revealed that he had been able to teach

601
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:55.839
<v Speaker 2>monkeys to smoke crack cocaine. So I guess brains just

602
00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:58.759
<v Speaker 2>say yum, yum, yum, chemicals wherever you go. But what

603
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:01.319
<v Speaker 2>other risks are there? And we'll get to that right

604
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:03.400
<v Speaker 2>after the break. But first, each week we donate to

605
00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:05.839
<v Speaker 2>a cause of the ologists choosing, and this week doctor

606
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:08.839
<v Speaker 2>Charlie Grove chose Human Rights Watch, which is a nonprofit

607
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:12.839
<v Speaker 2>composed of about five hundred people of over seventy nationalities

608
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:16.839
<v Speaker 2>who are country experts, lawyers, journalists and others who work

609
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:20.039
<v Speaker 2>to protect the most at risk from vulnerable minorities and

610
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:23.519
<v Speaker 2>civilians in wartime to refugees and children in need. So

611
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:26.160
<v Speaker 2>that is Human Rights Watch and a donation was made

612
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.319
<v Speaker 2>possible by sponsors. Apologies get value.

613
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:31.680
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614
00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:34.759
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615
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617
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618
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619
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620
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621
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.400
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622
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, back to your questions about risks. This one was

623
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:06.680
<v Speaker 2>asked by Jocelyn Vincent, Kathleen Carson, Rube, Ashley Adair, Devin

624
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:10.159
<v Speaker 2>Naples and Aaron Wilgemouth. So let's take a lesson. Una

625
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:14.199
<v Speaker 2>Trevanovic wants to know, what are the risks associated? Like,

626
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.679
<v Speaker 2>is my producing safe for the brain? Like any I

627
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.000
<v Speaker 2>think people who are interested in this are like, what's

628
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:20.719
<v Speaker 2>the worst.

629
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:21.039
<v Speaker 1>That could happen?

630
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:26.320
<v Speaker 4>Well, I think it's good to approach this with a

631
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:29.599
<v Speaker 4>fair degree of caution, and we don't. We're still trying

632
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:32.320
<v Speaker 4>to learn about it, you know. So the worst that

633
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:37.559
<v Speaker 4>could happen is somebody getting disoriented, losing their sense of

634
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:41.599
<v Speaker 4>calm and containment, running out of the building into the street.

635
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:44.920
<v Speaker 4>I was consulted on a case at a big East

636
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.960
<v Speaker 4>Coast university where a young guy I think he was nineteen,

637
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:53.039
<v Speaker 4>who would never evidently never taken a psychedelic and no

638
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:56.239
<v Speaker 4>psych history, got a hold of some mushrooms and on

639
00:34:56.360 --> 00:35:00.480
<v Speaker 4>an impulse, took a substantial dose. He then went walking

640
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:07.119
<v Speaker 4>around the very crowded streets, crowded with people, really loud,

641
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:11.000
<v Speaker 4>lot of noise and construction going on, and just total

642
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:13.840
<v Speaker 4>hell be out there. And he had some friends with

643
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:15.639
<v Speaker 4>him who didn't really know what he was doing.

644
00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:19.239
<v Speaker 2>Just jumping in with a trigger warning slash spoiler alert

645
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:22.440
<v Speaker 2>about a two thousand and three self harm incident that

646
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.440
<v Speaker 2>was later ruled by medical examiners to be an accident

647
00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:26.480
<v Speaker 2>and not a suicide.

648
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:29.519
<v Speaker 4>So then he ended up going into the student library

649
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:33.719
<v Speaker 4>where a week before, another kid had gone up to

650
00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:36.039
<v Speaker 4>a high floor and had jumped to his death. This

651
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:39.079
<v Speaker 4>kid didn't know the other one, but he knew the story,

652
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:42.280
<v Speaker 4>and he went into the elevator. His friends followed. He

653
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:45.400
<v Speaker 4>went up to the tenth floor, and he walked over

654
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:47.039
<v Speaker 4>to the railing and looked over it, and then his

655
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:50.039
<v Speaker 4>friends were getting very anxious, so they dragged him back,

656
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:52.679
<v Speaker 4>dragging him back to the elevator, but he broke free,

657
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:55.800
<v Speaker 4>and he just vaulted right over the railing and took

658
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:57.920
<v Speaker 4>a ten story dive.

659
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.199
<v Speaker 3>Oh gosh, that's the worst thing could happen, terribly?

660
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:03.679
<v Speaker 2>Is that a like evidence of psychosis?

661
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:03.880
<v Speaker 5>Is that?

662
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:06.840
<v Speaker 4>Do you think that's why he got disoriented? He got disoriented,

663
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.960
<v Speaker 4>he got very anxious, he lost his sense of self. Yeah,

664
00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:12.880
<v Speaker 4>but you know, psychosis. It could have been a transient

665
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:17.960
<v Speaker 4>psychosis' reality testing was disturbed. But chances are if he

666
00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:20.320
<v Speaker 4>had been in a setting where people knew what he

667
00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:22.960
<v Speaker 4>was doing and they could contain him, that he could

668
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.639
<v Speaker 4>have gotten through that pretty quickly. Yeah, gotten to the

669
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:28.960
<v Speaker 4>other side and been calm and contained and not put

670
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:31.599
<v Speaker 4>himself in any seriously dangerous situation.

671
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, the trip sitting important there.

672
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:38.559
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Yeah, that's an important role. There's a lot of responsibility.

673
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:38.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

674
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:42.280
<v Speaker 2>For a seventy nine page guide on how to conduct

675
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:45.400
<v Speaker 2>a trip like the research psychiatrist do see the Yale

676
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:49.679
<v Speaker 2>Manual for Psilocybin assisted Therapy of Depression, which notes that

677
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:55.000
<v Speaker 2>beforehand the session preparation checklist is room decor like arts

678
00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:58.840
<v Speaker 2>and plants and flowers, sheets, blanket pillow. They note it's

679
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.639
<v Speaker 2>good to have a water resistant sheet below cotton sheets

680
00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:05.239
<v Speaker 2>in case of incontinence. It's also good to have a

681
00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:09.679
<v Speaker 2>barf bucket, which they call an msspasin. They also recommend

682
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:13.960
<v Speaker 2>standard music system, ambient speakers, eye shades, having some lamps,

683
00:37:14.199 --> 00:37:17.519
<v Speaker 2>some comfortable lighting, maybe throwing some art materials, and they

684
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:21.079
<v Speaker 2>also have rescue medications on hand, which can be anti

685
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:24.039
<v Speaker 2>anxiety drugs in case someone starts to freak out. Now.

686
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:26.599
<v Speaker 2>It also notes that the researchers and nursing staff greet

687
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:30.519
<v Speaker 2>the participant. They give standard medical and psychiatric assessments. They

688
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:34.480
<v Speaker 2>check the blood pressure and pulse. They evaluate the participant

689
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:39.159
<v Speaker 2>for suicidality. They conduct a urine toxicology and if appropriate,

690
00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:42.079
<v Speaker 2>a pregnancy test and they ask the participant about any

691
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:45.840
<v Speaker 2>changes in their medications. Also, headphones or a speaker and

692
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:50.519
<v Speaker 2>an imask highly recommended. And to keep your thoughts moving,

693
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:54.079
<v Speaker 2>there's this five and a half hour Spotify playlist titled

694
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:58.079
<v Speaker 2>Imperial College of London Psilocybin Clinical Trial Playlist that I

695
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:02.119
<v Speaker 2>hear is very handy. Well one and only already Schmitz

696
00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:04.000
<v Speaker 2>wants to know is it true that vitamin C he

697
00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:06.760
<v Speaker 2>potentiates psilocybin's hallucinogenic effects?

698
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:11.800
<v Speaker 4>Not that I've ever I've never seen anything convincing on that.

699
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:14.360
<v Speaker 3>I know. There's anecdotal accounts.

700
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but nothing that it's like definitely doing well.

701
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:20.960
<v Speaker 4>There was interest in some vitamin B early on in

702
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:26.559
<v Speaker 4>the fifties. They thought maybe some vitamin bees were metabolites

703
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:28.000
<v Speaker 4>or had some kind of role in this.

704
00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:30.880
<v Speaker 3>Humphrey Osmond was looking ato that, but nothing ever came

705
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:31.119
<v Speaker 3>of it.

706
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.639
<v Speaker 2>I understand that for placebo they'll administer niosin and people

707
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:36.239
<v Speaker 2>get nios in.

708
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:38.760
<v Speaker 4>Well that's a bit a B vitamin. Yeah, yeah, we

709
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.519
<v Speaker 4>did that as a placiba. I won't do it again.

710
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:45.639
<v Speaker 4>Are really worse side effects? Were both niasin reactions?

711
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:47.800
<v Speaker 3>Were they really? They were well?

712
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:51.840
<v Speaker 4>They're very sensitive, they're very fair complexion. They got bright red,

713
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.039
<v Speaker 4>face got real red, and they started itching all over. Yeah,

714
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:57.519
<v Speaker 4>it lasted for thirty forty miserable minutes.

715
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Now, Nysin is a b vitamin B three, and if

716
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:04.800
<v Speaker 2>taken in high concentrations, like over fifty milligrams, the small

717
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.679
<v Speaker 2>blood vessels of the skin can dilate and lead to hot, itchy, red,

718
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:12.639
<v Speaker 2>sweaty skin, and a feeling like ants are in your arms.

719
00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:15.239
<v Speaker 2>According to one lady who drank a five hour energy

720
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:17.559
<v Speaker 2>drink during a college road trip and thought that she

721
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:19.199
<v Speaker 2>was dying, it's not subtle.

722
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:21.719
<v Speaker 4>We knew they were on placebo. It broke the blind.

723
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:25.840
<v Speaker 4>It wasn't an ideal placebo. I thought I needed a

724
00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:29.920
<v Speaker 4>placebo condition, and there really isn't a good placebo condition. Yeah,

725
00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:33.320
<v Speaker 4>Hopkins group likes to take very tiny dosages of the

726
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:37.920
<v Speaker 4>experimental medicine. But if there is anything too microdosing, then

727
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:42.280
<v Speaker 4>there might be somewhat of a therapeutic effect. Even taking

728
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:45.639
<v Speaker 4>a tiny dose as a placebo, I thought that was

729
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:47.599
<v Speaker 4>kind of confusing the situation.

730
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:49.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. No, we use cornstarch.

731
00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:53.360
<v Speaker 4>It's my favorite smart Although I'm doing something very different

732
00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:56.440
<v Speaker 4>from my new study which is a multi site study

733
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.599
<v Speaker 4>and I'm putting together with some colleagues where we're going

734
00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:02.159
<v Speaker 4>to treat people approaching the end of life in the

735
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:08.079
<v Speaker 4>palliative setting who are overwhelmed with demoralization. Demoralization is the

736
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:09.400
<v Speaker 4>target symptom.

737
00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:10.840
<v Speaker 2>And what does that mean exactly?

738
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:16.760
<v Speaker 4>Just you've lost all sense of purpose, meaning has dissipated.

739
00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:21.239
<v Speaker 4>You're in a terrible, unsolvable existential crisis.

740
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:26.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I feel like I became way less afraid

741
00:40:26.519 --> 00:40:29.320
<v Speaker 2>of death after I think that, I was just like, Okay, well,

742
00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:30.719
<v Speaker 2>it's cool, I'll be fine.

743
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.920
<v Speaker 4>There's a long tradition amongst indigenous people where these plant

744
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:41.480
<v Speaker 4>compounds are administered to initiates to really explore different realms

745
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:46.599
<v Speaker 4>of consciousness, including you know, dying and envisioning or visioning

746
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:50.360
<v Speaker 4>people you've known, either yourself or you know through legend

747
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:53.599
<v Speaker 4>or myth envisioning that well.

748
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:55.880
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people wanted to know about the stoned

749
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:59.559
<v Speaker 2>ape theory, patrons and human apes. Nick and Melanie's on

750
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:02.400
<v Speaker 2>for so Questionsker who asked, I'm curious what your thoughts

751
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:06.039
<v Speaker 2>are about the stoned ape hypothesis. Is there any legitimacy

752
00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:09.199
<v Speaker 2>to the hypothesis or is it all bunk. Does it

753
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:11.760
<v Speaker 2>have any truth to it? Is it bogus that.

754
00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:17.119
<v Speaker 4>The apes in the wetlands were munching on mushrooms and

755
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:20.119
<v Speaker 4>they became so inspired with their experience that they had

756
00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:23.840
<v Speaker 4>to convey it in some manner to another ape and

757
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:25.400
<v Speaker 4>thus began.

758
00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:30.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's a great theory. I don't think there's much proof.

759
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:33.519
<v Speaker 2>And also we should clarify that that's not a theory

760
00:41:33.639 --> 00:41:37.400
<v Speaker 2>but rather a hypothesis by Terrence McKenna that language developed

761
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.719
<v Speaker 2>relatively quickly in humans because of enhancements to the linguistic

762
00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:44.440
<v Speaker 2>centers in the brain from magic mushrooms and plant hallucinagens.

763
00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:48.599
<v Speaker 2>But most scientists are like a little like they don't

764
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:51.519
<v Speaker 2>give it too much credence. Even some of doctor Grobe's

765
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:54.800
<v Speaker 2>own work is cited in essays attempted to offer proof,

766
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.280
<v Speaker 2>like this recent Psychology Today article that noted doctor Charles

767
00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:00.400
<v Speaker 2>grow with the University of California lost in Lists and

768
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:03.719
<v Speaker 2>colleagues conducted to study in the early nineteen nineties exploring

769
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:06.880
<v Speaker 2>the effects of regular ayahuasca use in Brazil. They found

770
00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:11.760
<v Speaker 2>that individuals who drank ayahuasca regularly scored higher on neuropsychological

771
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:14.840
<v Speaker 2>tests than controls. Who did not drink the sprew. But

772
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.880
<v Speaker 2>even the guy quoted in that article, Charlie or Pal

773
00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:22.360
<v Speaker 2>Charlie Grob isntconvinced. Needs better evidence. What about neurological diseases

774
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:25.719
<v Speaker 2>like Alzheimer's Parkinson's, Katie Oldman wanted to know about interesting

775
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:27.239
<v Speaker 2>research on psilocybin and MS.

776
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:29.239
<v Speaker 3>Well, this is not being explored.

777
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:33.039
<v Speaker 4>I know a study looking at depression and people with Parkinson's,

778
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:37.719
<v Speaker 4>same with MS. And also, you know it's funny. Years ago,

779
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:42.159
<v Speaker 4>particularly regarding MDMA, we get into these endless debates about

780
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:45.199
<v Speaker 4>whether or not MDMA was neurotoxic, and I would argue

781
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:48.599
<v Speaker 4>strenuously that that was not the case. But now we're

782
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:54.400
<v Speaker 4>getting data that would indicate that psychedelics have neuroplastic effects. Really,

783
00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:59.039
<v Speaker 4>so what are the implications there to people with neurologic disease?

784
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:01.000
<v Speaker 2>And for more on this, you can see the twenty

785
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:04.519
<v Speaker 2>twenty two study from Psychiatry to Neurology Psychedelics as a

786
00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:09.559
<v Speaker 2>Prospective Therapeutics for Neurodegenerative disorders, which notes optimistically that recent

787
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:15.119
<v Speaker 2>studies with rodents revealed that psychedelics like psilocybins therapeutic effects

788
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:19.280
<v Speaker 2>might extend beyond treating major depressive disorder and substance use disorder.

789
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.800
<v Speaker 2>For example, they write, psychedelics may have efficacy in the

790
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.719
<v Speaker 2>treatment and prevention of brain injury and neurodegenerative diseases such

791
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:33.960
<v Speaker 2>as Alzheimer's. Now preclinical work shows the ability to induce neuroplasticity,

792
00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:38.519
<v Speaker 2>so changing in the brain and synaptogenesis that deals with synapses,

793
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:43.920
<v Speaker 2>and psychedelics may also act as immunomodulators by reducing these

794
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:49.679
<v Speaker 2>levels of pro inflammatory markers, so neuroplasticity helping those synapses

795
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:54.760
<v Speaker 2>reducing inflammation. Current and future psychedeliologists no pressure, but we're

796
00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:57.880
<v Speaker 2>all counting on you if you can fit in your schedule.

797
00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:01.199
<v Speaker 2>Speaking of schedules, Sonia Bird, how do I figure out

798
00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:05.239
<v Speaker 2>the right microdosing? And other microdosing questions came from Brooklyn Baron,

799
00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:10.360
<v Speaker 2>Jasmine Alexandra Kaikishimoto, Christopher Blubaugh, vincent Pick, Jones Or Spence Felix,

800
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:13.119
<v Speaker 2>Kelly McCain, and Kevin Krost. What about when it comes

801
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:14.920
<v Speaker 2>to micro dosing, if people are like, I'm going to

802
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:16.880
<v Speaker 2>try it, I'm gonna do it anyway to the on

803
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:20.159
<v Speaker 2>or off. Like Marco Centura wanted to know once every

804
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:21.000
<v Speaker 2>two days.

805
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:24.239
<v Speaker 4>Like I've heard different regimens. I've heard like once every

806
00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:25.239
<v Speaker 4>four days.

807
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:26.880
<v Speaker 2>Does it just last in your system for a couple

808
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:27.360
<v Speaker 2>of days.

809
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:30.960
<v Speaker 3>Or yeah, if you look at blood measures it'll clear.

810
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:35.920
<v Speaker 4>But there's some experiential component than in all likelihood persists,

811
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:38.840
<v Speaker 4>and it's to build up a set every four days,

812
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:41.360
<v Speaker 4>build up at kind of a steady state level, and

813
00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:44.599
<v Speaker 4>see if that has any therapeutic components. But again I'm

814
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:46.400
<v Speaker 4>waiting for the research to come out on this.

815
00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:50.119
<v Speaker 2>Get we need more micro psychopharmacologists.

816
00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:50.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

817
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:52.159
<v Speaker 2>Right, that's like the bottom line.

818
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:52.679
<v Speaker 3>There you go.

819
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Several people wanted to know when it comes to becoming

820
00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:59.280
<v Speaker 2>a researcher in this field, right, where do you see

821
00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:01.800
<v Speaker 2>it going? Like legality wise, Well.

822
00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:04.079
<v Speaker 4>I'll tell you what my father told me. I tell you,

823
00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:06.880
<v Speaker 4>I'll tell you again. He said, son, you need to

824
00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:09.440
<v Speaker 4>get credentials. No one will listen to U because you

825
00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:13.400
<v Speaker 4>get credentials. And for me, being his son, there was

826
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:15.360
<v Speaker 4>only one credential he was returning to.

827
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:17.639
<v Speaker 3>I had to go to medical school, which.

828
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:20.719
<v Speaker 4>I was avoiding, but then realized I had a greater

829
00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:23.320
<v Speaker 4>goal to pursue and I went for it.

830
00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Did you ever ask the mushrooms like should I become

831
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:26.440
<v Speaker 2>a doctor or what.

832
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:30.800
<v Speaker 4>Man. Oh, back in those days, it was a long interlude. Yeah,

833
00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:33.559
<v Speaker 4>it was not the time, not the place, set and

834
00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:37.519
<v Speaker 4>setting were not optimal. So I just read, I just read. Yeah,

835
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:41.800
<v Speaker 4>I knew that it was a fascinating area. I's some

836
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.880
<v Speaker 4>limited experience in the late sixties in college, but then

837
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:47.760
<v Speaker 4>not again for another twenty years. But I read everything

838
00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:51.079
<v Speaker 4>I could, and then twenty years on I had a

839
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:54.280
<v Speaker 4>lot of opportunity to see for myself, and those are

840
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:57.480
<v Speaker 4>very viable. That being said, I haven't done anything since,

841
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:02.159
<v Speaker 4>you know, six years or so. Yeah, I don't feel

842
00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:05.000
<v Speaker 4>called to it. It's a calling people feel called, not

843
00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:06.760
<v Speaker 4>by their friends saying don't be.

844
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:09.800
<v Speaker 3>A will Smith. You know, it's a calling.

845
00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:14.960
<v Speaker 4>You feel an instinctive cathexist to some greater force in

846
00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:17.559
<v Speaker 4>nature or the spirit, realm, or whatever you want to

847
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:22.519
<v Speaker 4>call it, that here's this potentially remarkable experience, and you

848
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:25.960
<v Speaker 4>are lucky enough to live in a time and place

849
00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:30.920
<v Speaker 4>where you actually have access. And your predecessors, your ancestors

850
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:34.920
<v Speaker 4>for centuries, didn't have a clue that these compounds even

851
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:39.000
<v Speaker 4>existed because they were underground, They were totally secret, and

852
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:42.320
<v Speaker 4>people who practice using them were condemned with the harshest

853
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.239
<v Speaker 4>punishments of the inquisition. They would try to wipe out

854
00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:48.280
<v Speaker 4>the indigenous people in South and Central America. And about

855
00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:51.719
<v Speaker 4>the midwives in Europe, in Western Europe, Eastern Europe, who

856
00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:56.599
<v Speaker 4>knew about plants, medicinal plants. The images of the witches

857
00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:57.960
<v Speaker 4>flying on their broomstack?

858
00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:00.159
<v Speaker 3>Do you know what that's do?

859
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:03.079
<v Speaker 2>They we had a witch episode recently, but rubbing balm

860
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:04.440
<v Speaker 2>on the broomstick.

861
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:09.719
<v Speaker 3>And then inserting it, yeah, yeah, flying high, flying high. Yeah.

862
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:14.360
<v Speaker 4>But the authorities, all men, the church authorities and secular

863
00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:15.880
<v Speaker 4>authorities were horrified by this.

864
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:18.920
<v Speaker 2>For more on indigenous perspectives on this, you can see

865
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:22.800
<v Speaker 2>the ethno Ecology episode and the witch Ology episode on

866
00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:26.280
<v Speaker 2>Indigenous beliefs and the culture of witches and spells.

867
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:29.000
<v Speaker 3>And they murdered millions.

868
00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:33.639
<v Speaker 4>This is in the millions, mostly women, mostly plant healers,

869
00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:35.280
<v Speaker 4>the midwives.

870
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:37.599
<v Speaker 2>Is that the hardest thing about what you do is

871
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:44.679
<v Speaker 2>getting over really conservative views or fears or institutions that

872
00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.360
<v Speaker 2>want to kind of stifle the research.

873
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:48.639
<v Speaker 3>I haven't run into that.

874
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:49.159
<v Speaker 5>I know.

875
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:49.760
<v Speaker 3>It's funny.

876
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:54.880
<v Speaker 4>For years I was cautioned to keep my interest in myself,

877
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:57.119
<v Speaker 4>and then I was at John Hopkins for many years,

878
00:47:57.559 --> 00:47:59.920
<v Speaker 4>and the chairman there didn't want to hear anything about it.

879
00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:02.840
<v Speaker 4>So I kept my interest in myself. You know, every

880
00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:06.880
<v Speaker 4>month I go to the medical library look at Index Medicus,

881
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:10.239
<v Speaker 4>what was new with psychedelics, hallucinogens or surgic you know,

882
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:12.719
<v Speaker 4>just to try to keep up that way. But it

883
00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:15.159
<v Speaker 4>was seen as a career killer. This would be back

884
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:18.280
<v Speaker 4>in the seventies eighties. In the late seventies, we were

885
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:20.960
<v Speaker 4>all asked to present the research paper to our medical

886
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.760
<v Speaker 4>school class. So I found a paper of stan Groffs

887
00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:26.840
<v Speaker 4>where he treated terminal cancer patients with anxiety and depression

888
00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:31.400
<v Speaker 4>with LSD and DPT and had phenomenal outcomes, remarkable, one

889
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:33.800
<v Speaker 4>of the most moving papers I'd ever had ever read

890
00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:36.239
<v Speaker 4>in the medical literature. So I chose that one. I

891
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:38.800
<v Speaker 4>distilled it down and I put together my talk. I

892
00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:40.639
<v Speaker 4>thought I had a great talk. It was excinct at

893
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:44.679
<v Speaker 4>a point, it was fascinating, and I'm really excited looking

894
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:48.760
<v Speaker 4>forward to what are my classmates and what the professors what, well,

895
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:49.800
<v Speaker 4>how are they going to react to this?

896
00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:50.679
<v Speaker 3>What are they going to say?

897
00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:53.119
<v Speaker 4>What comments will they have, what questions will they ask?

898
00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:55.519
<v Speaker 2>Against?

899
00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:56.559
<v Speaker 3>Nothing?

900
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:00.239
<v Speaker 4>Complete silence, And then I realized, oh my, I'm not

901
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:03.880
<v Speaker 4>supposed to talk about this. So it really wasn't until

902
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:06.400
<v Speaker 4>I left Hopkins in the late eighties and came out

903
00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:11.559
<v Speaker 4>to California and met some like minded psychiatrists, and.

904
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:15.880
<v Speaker 2>Like any researcher, having colleagues or a network of friends

905
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.480
<v Speaker 2>in the field can help the cause move along faster

906
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:21.440
<v Speaker 2>and smoother. I did an episode with James Burke of

907
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:24.119
<v Speaker 2>the British series Connections, and he told me in that

908
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:26.039
<v Speaker 2>some really great advice I think of all the time.

909
00:49:26.360 --> 00:49:28.320
<v Speaker 2>One plus one equals three.

910
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:28.800
<v Speaker 3>Two.

911
00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:31.599
<v Speaker 2>People can create things greater than the sum of their parts.

912
00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:34.000
<v Speaker 2>It's bad math, it's a great philosophy.

913
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:37.719
<v Speaker 4>Marlene Duris, who was an anthropologist, you know, who really

914
00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:41.719
<v Speaker 4>kind of helped me realize that it was still possible,

915
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:44.840
<v Speaker 4>even though decades had passed since I had my vision,

916
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:47.519
<v Speaker 4>I had my plan, and nothing could ever come of

917
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:50.880
<v Speaker 4>it because it wasn't the right time. By the early nineties,

918
00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:53.000
<v Speaker 4>it was the right time. You had Rick Strausman and

919
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:57.000
<v Speaker 4>Universe in Mexico got permission in ninety one to study

920
00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:01.760
<v Speaker 4>intravenous DMT. I got permission and two to study MDMA

921
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:04.320
<v Speaker 4>and normal volunteers, and then Debrimash and New Yors of

922
00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:07.119
<v Speaker 4>Miami got permission the following year to study people on

923
00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:07.760
<v Speaker 4>IBY game.

924
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:10.559
<v Speaker 3>That was the first opening.

925
00:50:11.199 --> 00:50:14.960
<v Speaker 4>And then Francisco Morano at Arizona in the early two

926
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:18.800
<v Speaker 4>thousands did a very nice proof of concepts study using

927
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:23.039
<v Speaker 4>psilocybin for people with refractory OCD oh wow. And then

928
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:26.920
<v Speaker 4>Roland in Baltimore did a study looking at the degree

929
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:31.639
<v Speaker 4>to which psilocybin may facilitate a powerful altered state of consciousness,

930
00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:36.599
<v Speaker 4>of powerful transcendent state, mystical state, which were according to

931
00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:38.760
<v Speaker 4>the literature going back to the fifties and then into

932
00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:41.719
<v Speaker 4>the sixties, that having a mystical experience or having a

933
00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:48.119
<v Speaker 4>powerful transcendent or transpersonal experience would make it more likely

934
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:53.239
<v Speaker 4>that individual would have a very positive, longstanding therapeutic outcome.

935
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:57.320
<v Speaker 2>And I'm glad that that hasn't been that huge of

936
00:50:57.400 --> 00:50:59.719
<v Speaker 2>a challenge for you career wise. Do you have any

937
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:02.199
<v Speaker 2>about the job? Do do you have anything?

938
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:03.280
<v Speaker 3>Is there something that sucks?

939
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:03.599
<v Speaker 5>Oh?

940
00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:06.760
<v Speaker 4>Well, I have a straight job. I'm a mainstream psychiatrist.

941
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:10.400
<v Speaker 4>I'm the director of a large division of child lesson psychiatry.

942
00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:12.880
<v Speaker 4>We have a lot of trainees. I really like kids,

943
00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:14.519
<v Speaker 4>I was the oldest in a big family, so I

944
00:51:14.599 --> 00:51:17.360
<v Speaker 4>grew up around kids. It was always fun, so it

945
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:21.039
<v Speaker 4>was a natural fit for me. And meanwhile, you know,

946
00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:24.519
<v Speaker 4>really it was when I got to Harbor Harbor, UCLA

947
00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:27.920
<v Speaker 4>in ninety three that I was really able to move

948
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:31.079
<v Speaker 4>forward with the MDMA study, the ayahuasca study.

949
00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:32.320
<v Speaker 3>The next decade.

950
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:35.000
<v Speaker 4>It was a psilocybin end of life study, and now

951
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:38.199
<v Speaker 4>we hope to have another multi size psilocybin study.

952
00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Is there anything that's that's the hardest part of

953
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:41.199
<v Speaker 2>your job?

954
00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:42.440
<v Speaker 3>My commute?

955
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:45.440
<v Speaker 2>Your commute. I was going to ask, well, what I found.

956
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:49.159
<v Speaker 4>I really it's imperative that I have people who have

957
00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:51.440
<v Speaker 4>got a lot of energy and are very well organized,

958
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:53.880
<v Speaker 4>because I'm I'm a bit all over the place, so

959
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:56.719
<v Speaker 4>I need people to keep me on on track. And

960
00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:59.039
<v Speaker 4>I had a wonderful resident who just moved back to

961
00:51:59.079 --> 00:52:01.519
<v Speaker 4>the East Coast, and I need to find someone who

962
00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:02.440
<v Speaker 4>could take her place.

963
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, maybe you'll get some emails out of this.

964
00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:05.639
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

965
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:08.480
<v Speaker 2>What about your favorite thing about what you do?

966
00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:11.000
<v Speaker 3>Oh, it's living the dream.

967
00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:11.280
<v Speaker 1>You know.

968
00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:14.079
<v Speaker 4>I always dreamed of doing this, and here I had

969
00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:17.679
<v Speaker 4>these remarkable opportunities. They just they just fell to me,

970
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:22.119
<v Speaker 4>and I'm very grateful that, you know, the universe has

971
00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:25.599
<v Speaker 4>been so kind to me, and I'm really excited about

972
00:52:25.639 --> 00:52:30.360
<v Speaker 4>the capacity these compounds have to have a therapeutic impact

973
00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:34.199
<v Speaker 4>on people whose conditions do not normally lend themselves to

974
00:52:35.079 --> 00:52:37.719
<v Speaker 4>positive effects from standard conventional treatments.

975
00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:38.159
<v Speaker 3>M H.

976
00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:41.000
<v Speaker 2>And I love also that there's a seven hundred page

977
00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:43.719
<v Speaker 2>textbook that people can find if they want to know

978
00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:46.639
<v Speaker 2>the compendium of like vetted information.

979
00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:49.320
<v Speaker 3>In my book. Yeah, Jim Grigsby of Colorado, we co

980
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:50.280
<v Speaker 3>edited a book.

981
00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Which is amazing.

982
00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:51.239
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

983
00:52:51.559 --> 00:52:53.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because there is research out there that I'm sure

984
00:52:53.800 --> 00:52:54.559
<v Speaker 2>people want to know.

985
00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:58.000
<v Speaker 4>That book has everything. Yeah, published by Gilford Press.

986
00:52:58.280 --> 00:53:01.760
<v Speaker 2>Got it. We'll link it everywhere. This has just been

987
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:04.440
<v Speaker 2>such a dream of mine. I've wanted to interview you

988
00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:08.199
<v Speaker 2>for so long, since before I even tripped out myself.

989
00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:10.800
<v Speaker 2>So this has really been an exciting episode.

990
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:14.199
<v Speaker 3>I enjoyed talking with you and maybe we'll meet again, Yeah.

991
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.440
<v Speaker 1>I hope. So.

992
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:20.559
<v Speaker 2>Ask tremendous experts, trippy questions and for more on doctor

993
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Charlie Grove's work in books, including his Handbook of Medical Hallucinogens.

994
00:53:25.239 --> 00:53:27.280
<v Speaker 2>You can see the links in the show notes, and

995
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:29.599
<v Speaker 2>there's more up on our web page at aliward dot

996
00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:33.400
<v Speaker 2>com slash Ologies slash Psychedelology, lots of links to lots

997
00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:36.280
<v Speaker 2>of studies. You can find us at Ologies on x

998
00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:39.679
<v Speaker 2>and Instagram. I'm at Ali Ward. Ali has just won

999
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:42.519
<v Speaker 2>l and I recently put up some new videos on

1000
00:53:42.599 --> 00:53:45.119
<v Speaker 2>Instagram and TikTok for a concept I'm are here on

1001
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:48.440
<v Speaker 2>called Holidays Observed with your pod mom Jared Sleeper, So

1002
00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:51.760
<v Speaker 2>please do go look for those. They're fun. Also, we

1003
00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:55.679
<v Speaker 2>launched a whole ass new show in its own feed, Smologies.

1004
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:58.880
<v Speaker 2>It's available wherever you get podcasts. Each week we release

1005
00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:02.119
<v Speaker 2>a new, g rated and shortened episode of Ologies. They

1006
00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:05.199
<v Speaker 2>are classroom safe, suitable for all ages and occasions, so

1007
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:08.159
<v Speaker 2>we moved Oursmologies to their own feed. Have at it.

1008
00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:10.679
<v Speaker 2>There's more of them if you're going on a family

1009
00:54:10.760 --> 00:54:12.639
<v Speaker 2>road trip. If you have friends with kids, please do

1010
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:14.599
<v Speaker 2>send them a link. Also, you can become a patron

1011
00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:16.679
<v Speaker 2>of Ologies at patron dot com slash Ologies for as

1012
00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:18.719
<v Speaker 2>little as a buck a month. Ologies merch available at

1013
00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:21.079
<v Speaker 2>the link in the show notes. Aaron Talbert admin's Ologies

1014
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:25.119
<v Speaker 2>podcast Facebook group. Aveline Mollich makes our professional transcripts. Noel

1015
00:54:25.239 --> 00:54:28.239
<v Speaker 2>Dilworth is our scheduling producer. Susan Hale is our managing

1016
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:31.920
<v Speaker 2>director and again Frankly a trip sitter every week do

1017
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:34.639
<v Speaker 2>it fact checking, extra research to Kelly ar Dwyer does

1018
00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:37.320
<v Speaker 2>the website and piecing together the fractals of audio are

1019
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:40.719
<v Speaker 2>Jake Chafee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio.

1020
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:43.119
<v Speaker 2>Nick Thorburn wrote the theme song and if you stick

1021
00:54:43.159 --> 00:54:49.239
<v Speaker 2>around until the end, I tell you a secret this week.

1022
00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:51.519
<v Speaker 2>It's a kind of a big one. If you stick around,

1023
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:53.320
<v Speaker 2>I said, I would tell you a little bit about

1024
00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:57.880
<v Speaker 2>my own experience tossing three point four grams of relatively

1025
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:01.639
<v Speaker 2>fresh and potent psilocybin mush rooms down my gullet in

1026
00:55:01.719 --> 00:55:08.039
<v Speaker 2>an effort to fix my brain. So after my dad died,

1027
00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:11.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, it wasn't the easiest time. I was going

1028
00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:16.960
<v Speaker 2>through depressed talking to my psychiatrist about antidepressants and anxiety

1029
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:19.119
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that. And at the time I wasn't on

1030
00:55:19.239 --> 00:55:23.280
<v Speaker 2>an antidepressant or a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor or SNRI,

1031
00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:26.039
<v Speaker 2>which deals with NARP and effort as well. So talking

1032
00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:29.800
<v Speaker 2>to my psychiatrist, he notes this study showing that psilocybin

1033
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:32.400
<v Speaker 2>therapy in a clinical trial was shown to be more

1034
00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:34.800
<v Speaker 2>effective than lexapro, and so I was like, Okay, I'm

1035
00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:36.079
<v Speaker 2>going to do this. I'm going to go for it.

1036
00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:40.519
<v Speaker 2>My psychiatrist sent me all this information on how to

1037
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:42.840
<v Speaker 2>do it, how to conduct it myself. I have a

1038
00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:48.000
<v Speaker 2>friend who knows a pharmacist who grows these things very well,

1039
00:55:48.559 --> 00:55:52.840
<v Speaker 2>and I'm again the laws listening. It happened in Oregon,

1040
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:55.880
<v Speaker 2>but I was really, really, really nervous to do it.

1041
00:55:55.920 --> 00:55:58.960
<v Speaker 2>I'd never taken any psychedelics like that. I think I

1042
00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:01.119
<v Speaker 2>probably had like a app of a mushroom once and

1043
00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:04.440
<v Speaker 2>like barely felt anything. So I was very worried about

1044
00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:07.000
<v Speaker 2>throwing up. I was very worried about having an absolute

1045
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:09.039
<v Speaker 2>panic attack, because sometimes if I smoked too much weed,

1046
00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:12.039
<v Speaker 2>it's just like I suddenly get terrified of death. And

1047
00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:14.599
<v Speaker 2>I realized it all that lies before us are horrible

1048
00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:17.719
<v Speaker 2>experiences of pain and disappointment. So I was afraid of

1049
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:21.239
<v Speaker 2>that happening. And I was reading the protocol about how

1050
00:56:21.320 --> 00:56:23.639
<v Speaker 2>you should journal ahead of time so that you set

1051
00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:27.119
<v Speaker 2>out your kind of intentions, you know, what shit you

1052
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:30.159
<v Speaker 2>want to go through and examine or look at. I

1053
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:35.280
<v Speaker 2>went whole hog. According to Gale, protocol, Imperial College of London,

1054
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:40.440
<v Speaker 2>other methodologies like doctor Grobs read how they did the experiments,

1055
00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:45.079
<v Speaker 2>Headphones playlist. I talked about imask now. The day before

1056
00:56:45.239 --> 00:56:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I journaled about like what my intentions were, like why

1057
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:49.480
<v Speaker 2>was I doing this? What kind of stuff did I

1058
00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:51.599
<v Speaker 2>want to clear out? And I wanted to get through

1059
00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:55.320
<v Speaker 2>this feeling that my worth was tied to how helpful

1060
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:57.679
<v Speaker 2>I was or how much I was making other people happy.

1061
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:01.320
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to get through this anxiety and this perfectionism

1062
00:57:01.800 --> 00:57:05.320
<v Speaker 2>that is always using like self criticism to make me

1063
00:57:05.480 --> 00:57:09.159
<v Speaker 2>work harder. I wanted to reconnect with happiness in my

1064
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:11.679
<v Speaker 2>life and like allow myself to feel happy without fearing

1065
00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:14.079
<v Speaker 2>that like another shoe was going to drop, which is

1066
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:17.719
<v Speaker 2>just anxiety. And I wanted to feel more open to

1067
00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:20.519
<v Speaker 2>trusting and not feel like, oh, if I, you know,

1068
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:23.599
<v Speaker 2>get rejected by someone, or if I do one thing wrong,

1069
00:57:23.719 --> 00:57:26.159
<v Speaker 2>someone's going to be so mad at me forever. I

1070
00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:28.400
<v Speaker 2>wanted to just trust that people who loved me love

1071
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:31.199
<v Speaker 2>me and that was okay. And so I also wanted

1072
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:35.840
<v Speaker 2>to process my dad's death, and so I wanted to

1073
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:39.599
<v Speaker 2>sort of like connect with how my family relationships are

1074
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:43.599
<v Speaker 2>and really feel like I could be myself right, And

1075
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:47.760
<v Speaker 2>so I journaled the day before. I said, I found

1076
00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:49.320
<v Speaker 2>these by the way. I found these in an old binder.

1077
00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:51.719
<v Speaker 2>I said that some of the things I was looking

1078
00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:56.400
<v Speaker 2>for was comfort and confidence and ease and openness. And

1079
00:57:57.039 --> 00:58:00.440
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to make better choices for my body. I

1080
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:03.039
<v Speaker 2>love hiking and walking and running. I wanted to do

1081
00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:05.280
<v Speaker 2>more of it. I wanted to not work more than

1082
00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:08.119
<v Speaker 2>I work. And so I went into it with all that.

1083
00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:10.920
<v Speaker 2>And then the day of I was super nervous. I

1084
00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:13.880
<v Speaker 2>ate like a very light breakfast, got in pajamas. Jarrett

1085
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:16.679
<v Speaker 2>was my trip sitter. I did have one or two

1086
00:58:16.760 --> 00:58:19.159
<v Speaker 2>Sanax pills on hand in case I freaked out. Turned

1087
00:58:19.159 --> 00:58:20.760
<v Speaker 2>out I didn't need them at all. So I'm not

1088
00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:22.679
<v Speaker 2>going to tell you how to obtain things legally. That

1089
00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:24.480
<v Speaker 2>seems pretty murky, but I will tell you that we

1090
00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:26.840
<v Speaker 2>had some. They were very potent. Great. We put them

1091
00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:28.679
<v Speaker 2>in a coffee grinder until they were dust, and then

1092
00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:30.920
<v Speaker 2>I put them in a glass of tangerine juice choked

1093
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:33.400
<v Speaker 2>it down like it was metamucl or something. And so

1094
00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:37.599
<v Speaker 2>then I get in pajamas. I have the headphones, I

1095
00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:39.599
<v Speaker 2>have my mask. Jared's sitting in the foot of the

1096
00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:42.599
<v Speaker 2>bed and I get in bed and I'm like, okay,

1097
00:58:42.639 --> 00:58:44.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't feel anything, which goes on for like forty

1098
00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:47.119
<v Speaker 2>five minutes, right, and then suddenly my hands started to

1099
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:49.559
<v Speaker 2>feel kind of tingling, and I was like, oh okay.

1100
00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:52.000
<v Speaker 2>I started to feel like a little stony bologna, and

1101
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:54.320
<v Speaker 2>I was like, okay, Jarreed's like put the headphones on,

1102
00:58:55.039 --> 00:58:56.920
<v Speaker 2>turn on the music. Da da dah. And so then

1103
00:58:57.159 --> 00:58:58.800
<v Speaker 2>I started to feel a little bit nauseous, and I

1104
00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:01.599
<v Speaker 2>remember hearing just tell your body, it's okay, this thing

1105
00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:04.679
<v Speaker 2>is here to help you. Don't barfit. You worked hard

1106
00:59:04.760 --> 00:59:06.679
<v Speaker 2>for this, don't barf it up. It's okay. It's a friend.

1107
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:08.400
<v Speaker 2>It's a friend. It's a friend, like when your dog

1108
00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:10.360
<v Speaker 2>is like well and you're like, it's the mailman. They

1109
00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:12.519
<v Speaker 2>have a present for us. So did a little bit

1110
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:14.639
<v Speaker 2>of that with myself. It passed, which was cool. I

1111
00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:18.039
<v Speaker 2>was super afraid of barfing, didn't at all. And then

1112
00:59:18.320 --> 00:59:20.199
<v Speaker 2>I put on the mask. I was listening to the music.

1113
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:23.079
<v Speaker 2>It was like whoo, you know, like trippy spa music,

1114
00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:27.480
<v Speaker 2>but it kind of served like a music in a

1115
00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:30.199
<v Speaker 2>trailer where it just brings things along, it takes you

1116
00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:32.559
<v Speaker 2>by the hand and keeps your thoughts moving, which was

1117
00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:35.719
<v Speaker 2>really helpful, I think. And so the first thing I

1118
00:59:36.039 --> 00:59:39.039
<v Speaker 2>kind of remember is feeling like I was coming into

1119
00:59:39.119 --> 00:59:40.880
<v Speaker 2>like a train station and there was just like a

1120
00:59:40.960 --> 00:59:44.840
<v Speaker 2>sea of faces, like when you see old movies like

1121
00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:47.280
<v Speaker 2>Ben hur where there's a lot of people in a coliseum.

1122
00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:47.880
<v Speaker 4>It was like that.

1123
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:50.360
<v Speaker 2>It was just like faces that were all like hey,

1124
00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:52.920
<v Speaker 2>you made it, and it was like, holy shit, these

1125
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:56.039
<v Speaker 2>are all my ancestors. This is bonkers. Where'd everyone come from?

1126
00:59:56.119 --> 00:59:58.159
<v Speaker 2>How do you guys know what's coming? They're like, hey,

1127
00:59:58.440 --> 01:00:02.159
<v Speaker 2>you're here, and I was like, whoa this is I

1128
01:00:02.239 --> 01:00:03.639
<v Speaker 2>got a lot of people to catch up with. This

1129
01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:05.960
<v Speaker 2>is so cool. And then one of them started leading

1130
01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:08.320
<v Speaker 2>me down into this labyrinth. Everything was kind of like

1131
01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:11.320
<v Speaker 2>brown Stone clay and they were like, let me show

1132
01:00:11.320 --> 01:00:12.519
<v Speaker 2>you around, Let me show you around, and there were

1133
01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:14.480
<v Speaker 2>people scattered waving as I was going by, and I

1134
01:00:14.599 --> 01:00:16.159
<v Speaker 2>was like, Oh, this is the trip. And then for

1135
01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:18.559
<v Speaker 2>a second I did get scared at something. There was

1136
01:00:18.639 --> 01:00:22.440
<v Speaker 2>like some kind of foreboding, scary feeling, and I remembered

1137
01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:26.280
<v Speaker 2>hearing when that happens, stop and ask what is this here?

1138
01:00:26.360 --> 01:00:28.639
<v Speaker 2>To teach me? Like go at it with curiosity and

1139
01:00:28.760 --> 01:00:30.239
<v Speaker 2>to have like, oh no, this thing's gonna suck my

1140
01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:32.760
<v Speaker 2>brains out. And so I think that I can't remember,

1141
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:35.440
<v Speaker 2>but I think that that thing that I encountered was

1142
01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:38.280
<v Speaker 2>just like are you sure you should? And I had

1143
01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:39.960
<v Speaker 2>to tell the thing like no, I think we're good here.

1144
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:43.440
<v Speaker 2>Thank you though, And gosh, I remember being in like

1145
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:47.119
<v Speaker 2>a Lisa Frank like rainbow. This all, by the way,

1146
01:00:47.639 --> 01:00:50.639
<v Speaker 2>had phones and eye shades on, so this was all

1147
01:00:50.719 --> 01:00:52.800
<v Speaker 2>like in my mind's eye. I wasn't looking at anything,

1148
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:55.320
<v Speaker 2>so I was having kind of like lucid dreams of

1149
01:00:56.159 --> 01:00:59.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of bridges and like a beautiful Japanese garden

1150
01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:02.199
<v Speaker 2>that was all and rainbows. And then I started talking

1151
01:01:02.239 --> 01:01:06.199
<v Speaker 2>to dead people. That was pretty nanas Like Dad came through.

1152
01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:07.440
<v Speaker 2>He's like, hey, what's up.

1153
01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:07.880
<v Speaker 5>You made it?

1154
01:01:07.960 --> 01:01:10.280
<v Speaker 2>I was like, Dad, what's up. We had a long

1155
01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:14.239
<v Speaker 2>conversation about how much injustice there is in the world

1156
01:01:14.440 --> 01:01:16.559
<v Speaker 2>and how he was proud of me for trying to fight,

1157
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:19.360
<v Speaker 2>which was really great to hear, even if my brain

1158
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:22.599
<v Speaker 2>just made it up. I also talked to a brother

1159
01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:25.880
<v Speaker 2>in law who had died, a long conversation about how

1160
01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:28.760
<v Speaker 2>we were both like childless but an aunt and an

1161
01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:31.400
<v Speaker 2>uncle who were happy to take care of our nieces

1162
01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:35.079
<v Speaker 2>and our nephews and not to worry about not having kids.

1163
01:01:35.159 --> 01:01:38.559
<v Speaker 2>I had this really wild sort of like processing of

1164
01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:41.119
<v Speaker 2>the fact that I am not going to bear kids

1165
01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:43.239
<v Speaker 2>and probably won't raise them. If you listen to my

1166
01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:48.639
<v Speaker 2>mystery surgery a few months ago, I got nothing in

1167
01:01:48.719 --> 01:01:51.559
<v Speaker 2>there that makes babies, had them all taken out. I've

1168
01:01:51.559 --> 01:01:54.760
<v Speaker 2>been having health problems with that for over a decade. Anyway,

1169
01:01:55.119 --> 01:01:58.679
<v Speaker 2>I was having these like these really great conversations with

1170
01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:02.599
<v Speaker 2>some sort of voiceless voice being like, hey, don't worry

1171
01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:05.280
<v Speaker 2>about it. Some people are here to further their DNA

1172
01:02:05.800 --> 01:02:08.119
<v Speaker 2>and to keep that going. That's okay. You're here to

1173
01:02:08.199 --> 01:02:09.760
<v Speaker 2>make stuff and put it in the world, which is

1174
01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:11.920
<v Speaker 2>going to help other people raise their kids. So don't

1175
01:02:11.960 --> 01:02:14.760
<v Speaker 2>worry about it. That's not your legacy. DNA is not

1176
01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:16.679
<v Speaker 2>your legacy. That's also why you have so many great

1177
01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:20.280
<v Speaker 2>like female friends who understand what it's like to want

1178
01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:23.920
<v Speaker 2>to make things and maybe not prioritize motherhood. So I

1179
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:26.079
<v Speaker 2>was like, that actually really helps. Thank you so much

1180
01:02:26.119 --> 01:02:34.000
<v Speaker 2>for that. So long conversations without words and crying. Never

1181
01:02:34.199 --> 01:02:36.480
<v Speaker 2>cried so much in my life, but like happy tears,

1182
01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:39.239
<v Speaker 2>like when you watch videos of someone coming home from

1183
01:02:39.280 --> 01:02:42.280
<v Speaker 2>a trip and their dog loses their mind recognizing them

1184
01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:43.960
<v Speaker 2>and is so happy. It was like that kind of crying,

1185
01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:49.039
<v Speaker 2>soaking handkerchiefs, kleenecks, just crying in bed. And at one point,

1186
01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:50.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, Jared, He's sitting at the end of the

1187
01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:53.639
<v Speaker 2>bed during the beginning of this, but my dad and

1188
01:02:53.679 --> 01:02:56.360
<v Speaker 2>I in this mystical realm, we're talking about Jared and

1189
01:02:56.519 --> 01:02:59.599
<v Speaker 2>how much he was so helpful and how much love

1190
01:02:59.639 --> 01:03:01.920
<v Speaker 2>he showed when my dad was in hospice and we

1191
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:03.719
<v Speaker 2>were talking about, like what a great guy. And then

1192
01:03:03.719 --> 01:03:05.079
<v Speaker 2>at one point I had to be like, hey, Derek,

1193
01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:07.639
<v Speaker 2>can you leave actually because it's just awkward because we're

1194
01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:10.039
<v Speaker 2>like talking about you. And he was like, Okay, let

1195
01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:11.719
<v Speaker 2>me know if you need anything. At one point I

1196
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:13.480
<v Speaker 2>did have to go to the bathroom and I was like, hey,

1197
01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:15.719
<v Speaker 2>can you help me? And I made very very sure

1198
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:17.679
<v Speaker 2>not to look in the mirror. I heard that bad

1199
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:20.679
<v Speaker 2>things happen when you do, although I did peek under

1200
01:03:20.719 --> 01:03:22.719
<v Speaker 2>my eyemask and all I could see was I looked

1201
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.039
<v Speaker 2>like someone who had just been on a twenty hour

1202
01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:28.559
<v Speaker 2>flight with turbulence. It wasn't a good look. But I

1203
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:31.199
<v Speaker 2>remember being like, that's what I should look like right now. Anyway,

1204
01:03:31.280 --> 01:03:34.159
<v Speaker 2>got back to bed. The whole thing lasted like six hours.

1205
01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:38.599
<v Speaker 2>I started to come down from it, and it felt

1206
01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:42.800
<v Speaker 2>really glowy and peaceful, and I remember sitting on the

1207
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:45.320
<v Speaker 2>couch and sort of telling Jared about it, just how

1208
01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:48.599
<v Speaker 2>much I realized I'm so lucky to be able to

1209
01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:52.639
<v Speaker 2>do my dreams and I can let myself be happier

1210
01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:56.119
<v Speaker 2>about that. Also, just what a waste of energy and

1211
01:03:56.320 --> 01:04:00.639
<v Speaker 2>molecules and hormones anxiety is. So here's the deal. When

1212
01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:02.039
<v Speaker 2>I came out of it, I was like, all of

1213
01:04:02.119 --> 01:04:04.639
<v Speaker 2>my problems in life are solved. I've never felt more

1214
01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:09.320
<v Speaker 2>peaceful and confident and centered and grounded and full of love. Right,

1215
01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:12.440
<v Speaker 2>here's the thing that lasts for a bit, right, that

1216
01:04:12.599 --> 01:04:15.639
<v Speaker 2>lasts for weeks months. But then when things start to

1217
01:04:15.679 --> 01:04:18.760
<v Speaker 2>get challenging and you start to forget all those thoughts

1218
01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:20.800
<v Speaker 2>and how they felt in your body and your mind,

1219
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:23.360
<v Speaker 2>and you start picking up old habits, then that can

1220
01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:27.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of dissipate. And so it's a reminder you have

1221
01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:31.039
<v Speaker 2>to actively remember that what you learned or what you saw,

1222
01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:33.000
<v Speaker 2>what you've got a chance to feel that good for

1223
01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:35.000
<v Speaker 2>a bit. What do you have to do to put

1224
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:37.599
<v Speaker 2>those things in place, whether it's like having better boundaries,

1225
01:04:37.639 --> 01:04:41.480
<v Speaker 2>whether it's having more confidence in yourself, whether it's looking

1226
01:04:41.599 --> 01:04:44.159
<v Speaker 2>on people who are difficult in your life with more

1227
01:04:44.239 --> 01:04:48.199
<v Speaker 2>empathy or with maybe less empathy, depending on the relationship.

1228
01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:51.599
<v Speaker 2>So it's like you learn how good things can feel,

1229
01:04:51.719 --> 01:04:55.599
<v Speaker 2>and how like your essence is a competent and full

1230
01:04:55.679 --> 01:04:58.039
<v Speaker 2>of love and all of these things, and then it's

1231
01:04:58.159 --> 01:05:00.840
<v Speaker 2>just a matter of on the outside world doing all

1232
01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:03.280
<v Speaker 2>those things that get you to that place. And so

1233
01:05:03.400 --> 01:05:08.039
<v Speaker 2>that was my experience of it for me, super super transformative.

1234
01:05:08.079 --> 01:05:11.480
<v Speaker 2>I have thought of that trip every single day for

1235
01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:14.480
<v Speaker 2>the last couple of years. It's definitely one of the

1236
01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:18.159
<v Speaker 2>most impactful experiences of my life. I'm so glad that

1237
01:05:18.239 --> 01:05:23.679
<v Speaker 2>I didn't take sacred ethno botanical medicines in a setting

1238
01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:27.639
<v Speaker 2>that was cavalier. I think that they have a lot

1239
01:05:27.719 --> 01:05:29.840
<v Speaker 2>that they can teach you about how your own mind works,

1240
01:05:30.199 --> 01:05:33.000
<v Speaker 2>So just can those thoughts and that reframing can get

1241
01:05:33.039 --> 01:05:35.320
<v Speaker 2>to you in a much deeper way. Anyway, that is

1242
01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:38.320
<v Speaker 2>my story about it. Super transformative. I think about it

1243
01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:40.920
<v Speaker 2>all the time. I'm not afraid of death. I feel

1244
01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:45.199
<v Speaker 2>like whatever happens to you, your molecules become something else,

1245
01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:48.119
<v Speaker 2>your atoms become something else. Maybe I'll be a frog,

1246
01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:51.159
<v Speaker 2>maybe I'll turn into a plane. That would be a

1247
01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:54.679
<v Speaker 2>random choice, but it could happen, who knows. But whatever happens,

1248
01:05:54.719 --> 01:05:58.599
<v Speaker 2>you're just we're here for a relatively short time. Everyone's

1249
01:05:58.679 --> 01:06:00.480
<v Speaker 2>just a tiny little baby that wants to be loved.

1250
01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:03.639
<v Speaker 2>A lot of anger and fear can make people get

1251
01:06:03.679 --> 01:06:07.199
<v Speaker 2>a bit off track. But the really important thing is

1252
01:06:07.239 --> 01:06:09.119
<v Speaker 2>that you have to be much more kind to yourself,

1253
01:06:09.159 --> 01:06:11.280
<v Speaker 2>and when you are that way, you will be kinder

1254
01:06:11.360 --> 01:06:16.239
<v Speaker 2>to others. So that's my big rainbowy mystical trip. I

1255
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:18.760
<v Speaker 2>can't stress enough that it's really important to talk to

1256
01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:21.199
<v Speaker 2>a doctor and do a ton of research. Make sure

1257
01:06:21.239 --> 01:06:25.920
<v Speaker 2>that you're not at risk for anything like psychosis or anxiety,

1258
01:06:26.280 --> 01:06:31.760
<v Speaker 2>cardiovascular stuff. Do not go into this lightly, is my suggestion.

1259
01:06:31.960 --> 01:06:35.079
<v Speaker 2>If you decide to do something like this. Also journal before,

1260
01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:39.679
<v Speaker 2>journal after. Just be very careful and no matter what,

1261
01:06:40.559 --> 01:06:42.519
<v Speaker 2>just try to take some of those lessons about being

1262
01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:45.840
<v Speaker 2>kinder to yourself and just like appreciating nature and time

1263
01:06:46.159 --> 01:06:48.840
<v Speaker 2>and all the things that are good around you. And anyway,

1264
01:06:48.920 --> 01:06:51.360
<v Speaker 2>I hope this helps, as I say, do the thing,

1265
01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:56.559
<v Speaker 2>make the project, do the art, text the crush, cut

1266
01:06:56.639 --> 01:06:59.599
<v Speaker 2>your hair, wear ugly shoes. If you like them, you

1267
01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:02.480
<v Speaker 2>are aren't anybody else, and that's great, so you don't

1268
01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:05.599
<v Speaker 2>have to be anyway. I hope you've enjoyed this two parter,

1269
01:07:06.280 --> 01:07:09.079
<v Speaker 2>this extra long secret. If this is your first episode

1270
01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:11.719
<v Speaker 2>of listening to ologies, the secrets are not usually this long.

1271
01:07:12.159 --> 01:07:15.719
<v Speaker 2>If you've listened to the end, congratulations for sticking it

1272
01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:19.840
<v Speaker 2>out with me, and sleep tight. We all love you. Byebye.

1273
01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:33.920
<v Speaker 5>Pacidermatology, homeology, crypto zoology, lithology, technology, meteorology, paratology, technology, seriology, selenology.

1274
01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:42.719
<v Speaker 3>That sounds intense.

1275
01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:43.960
<v Speaker 2>Get value.

1276
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:46.440
<v Speaker 1>You can't argue with at Tesco with their amazing club

1277
01:07:46.519 --> 01:07:49.199
<v Speaker 1>card prices. Have the perfect night in with their finest

1278
01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:52.199
<v Speaker 1>frozen pizza meal deal. Get the finest frozen pizza, chips

1279
01:07:52.239 --> 01:07:55.119
<v Speaker 1>and ice cream all for six euro like our delicious

1280
01:07:55.119 --> 01:07:58.119
<v Speaker 1>spicy salami, hot honey and do ye or Margarito wood

1281
01:07:58.119 --> 01:08:01.280
<v Speaker 1>fired pizzas, served up with their speed chunky chips and

1282
01:08:01.440 --> 01:08:04.239
<v Speaker 1>ice cream like sea Salt de caramel or pistachio for dessert.

1283
01:08:04.679 --> 01:08:08.079
<v Speaker 1>Can't argue with that shop in store or online. Tesco

1284
01:08:08.599 --> 01:08:11.480
<v Speaker 1>Every Little Helps available in most stores, Prices varying.

1285
01:08:11.559 --> 01:08:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Express