WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.680 Today on the show, our focus is on the state 2 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:07.080 of education in India. We look at the demolition threat 3 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:10.919 hanging over Muhammad Ali Jahord University in Rampur and why 4 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:14.359 students say it puts their education and future at risk. 5 00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:18.920 We also turned to Utra Khand where two university examinations 6 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:22.760 have been canceled. But first we talk about a major 7 00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:26.679 reason why India's education system is failing the youth of 8 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:33.159 the country. Hi, I'm Atchasharma and you're listening to three 9 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:41.759 things the Indian Express New Show. For over a month now, 10 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:45.520 protesters from across the country have gathered under the banner 11 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:49.640 of the Cokro Junta party demanding the resignation of Education 12 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:53.759 Minister Thramindri Pradhan. The trigger, as most of you may remember, 13 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:57.399 was a leaked neat Yuji question paper. And this problem, 14 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.719 of course, is not new. Over the past debas, more 15 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.479 than one hundred and fifty competitive exams in India have 16 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:07.799 seen leaks, and an Indian Express investigation found that are 17 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:11.840 forty five major leak cases over two decades, only two 18 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.079 ended in conviction. In fact, two accused in one of 19 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:19.400 those cases are now sitting MLAs in Uttar Pradesh. Now 20 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:23.359 When it comes to the problems concerning India's education, one 21 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.799 issue that stands out is funding, especially how much of 22 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.159 the Union budget actually goes to education. So in this 23 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:33.680 segment we'll be discussing what this means for the protests 24 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:37.239 and what it says about the government's priority is going forward. 25 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:40.040 And for this we are joined by the Indian Expresses 26 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:42.959 Udit Misha, who reported on this data for the paper 27 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:47.079 other than your latest piece. You compare education's share of 28 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:51.200 the Union budget rather than the absolute amount allocated to it, 29 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:55.000 So can you tell us why is that distinction so important? 30 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:58.719 So my purpose was to look at the share, because 31 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:01.200 it tells you the priority is where is the stress 32 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:04.040 that the government is putting. Does it want to put 33 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:07.519 more emphasis on education or does it want to promote 34 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:10.599 more roads, more health? What is it trying to do? 35 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:13.199 That is why we are looking at the share, because 36 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:16.199 share is out of the same hundred percent, right, the 37 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:20.039 same regardless of how much nominally you spend, it's the 38 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:22.240 same one hundred percent out of which you are trying 39 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:25.120 to figure out what is the share of a particular department, 40 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:28.319 And that over time tells you whether the government is 41 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:31.479 emphasizing that expenditure on that particular. 42 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:32.800 Department or de emphasizing it. 43 00:02:33.159 --> 00:02:36.560 And that is where I've looked at data for education, health, 44 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:40.599 and roads and highways, just to illustrate the broader trend. 45 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:43.719 Right, and you've looked at longitudinal data that is over 46 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:46.919 the past decade. So what does the data actually tell us? 47 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:49.599 How has education's share of the budget changed? 48 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:54.360 Yeah, so, I mean we have found that typically a 49 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:57.919 criticism of Indian budgets has been that Indian governments have 50 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:01.159 not spent as much of the budget on. 51 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:02.400 Education and health. 52 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:05.039 You know, Academics have often said that we should be 53 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:08.560 spending you know, a much larger amount of the total 54 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:11.199 budget on health and education because we are a large 55 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:13.879 population and we are a developing country and we need 56 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:16.560 to invest in our people. Now, what the data is 57 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:20.000 showing is that over the last twelve years, say, the 58 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:24.039 share of education department in the total budget has fallen 59 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:26.759 from four point six percent, which is to say that 60 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:29.280 out of every one hundred rupees that a government spent 61 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:33.360 twelve years ago four rupees sixty per hours spent towards education, 62 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.520 that amount has fallen to two point five percent, which 63 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:39.639 is to say, of every one hundred rupees that a 64 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:43.000 government spends today, only two point two rupees fifty p 65 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:43.360 s I is. 66 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:44.560 Spent towards education. 67 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:48.520 So what we find is that the emphasis on education 68 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:51.960 over every one hundred rupees that the government spends has 69 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:55.199 come down. And for health, we find that this number 70 00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:59.400 is largely stagnant. It has remained at around two rupees 71 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:02.639 for a three hundred rupeces that the government spends for 72 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:07.039 roads and highways, which is a very stark case, it 73 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:09.919 has gone up from less than two rupees or two 74 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:12.840 percent one point eight percent roughly to five point eight 75 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:15.159 percent now in twelve years, which is to say that 76 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:18.639 it has troubled. So the government spending three times more 77 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:23.319 relatively on making roads and highways. And now this tallies 78 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:26.959 very well with the notion or the understanding that this 79 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:30.079 government has had where it has tried to focus on 80 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.399 physical infrastructure, that creating more physical infrastructure, which is also 81 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:37.800 needed in India, will create jobs, which it will also 82 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:41.319 boost the productive capacity. More roads means more commerce can 83 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:44.800 happen and can happen at a cheaper price. But it 84 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:49.879 seems like the increased expenditure on roads and highways seems 85 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:53.000 to have come at the cost of things like education 86 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.199 and health, health staying stagnant in terms of the share, 87 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.519 and education actually getting reduced well almost half in terms. 88 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.199 Of the share that it had in the overall expenditure. 89 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:08.439 Okay, so education share of the budget has fallen, But 90 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:11.480 on ground, why should a student care? What does that 91 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:12.480 actually mean for them? 92 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:16.319 So, you know, often enough you would have heard that 93 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:20.079 governments often say that they don't have enough money to 94 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:25.560 perhaps provide certain services, like in India, many citizens would 95 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:29.120 say that we don't have better health care better say 96 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:34.680 public transport, or public housing or education. And the source 97 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.079 of all of that is that governments don't have the 98 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:41.319 money now in any developing economy, especially with the you know, 99 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:44.000 when we are living in a neighborhood where we are 100 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:47.560 also having defense issues with our neighbors, there are all 101 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.240 kinds of competing demands for the government. You know, it 102 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:53.319 has to figure out how much to spend on say defense, 103 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:55.959 and how much to spend on education versus how much 104 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:59.600 to spend on healthcare. But money is very central to 105 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:04.399 whether the governments can provide any service or not. Can 106 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:07.879 you have good public health care system where government can 107 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:12.600 provide you cheap, reliable health care. It will depend essentially 108 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:16.600 on the money that it allocates. If that money is 109 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:20.680 getting reduced in relative terms and more is being spent 110 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:25.399 on other things, then citizens cannot really expect that they 111 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:29.720 would get better health care or better education. Public education 112 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:33.279 will get undermined, and this will reflect in things like 113 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:39.160 fewer schools, fewer teachers or less motivated teachers, fewer libraries 114 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:41.439 or less well stocked libraries. 115 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:42.600 So this is the. 116 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.040 Reason why readers or listeners should care of how much 117 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.639 money is being spent on education or health. 118 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:51.759 I know that the example you gave if roads have 119 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:54.959 received a much larger share of the budget, is that 120 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:58.199 necessarily a bad thing, because the government could argue that 121 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:03.600 infrastructure ultimately creates jobs and generates the resources needed to 122 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:05.040 invest in education later. 123 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:08.240 So there is no one way to understand this, but 124 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:11.319 it is important to note that, first of all, whether 125 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:14.639 you spend more on roads or on education does have 126 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:17.279 an impact on the number of schools you make and 127 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.560 the salaries you pay, or the facilities you provide, or 128 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:25.480 the curriculum, all kinds of investments that come specific to education. 129 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:28.759 The other thing is that you can go up round 130 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:29.439 about and. 131 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:33.000 Say that more roads will create more jobs but creating 132 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:36.240 more jobs might require more skilled people. If you do 133 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:39.279 not have well educated skilled people, there is a chance 134 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:43.319 that the person making the road may actually employ a machine. Right, 135 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:47.279 So just spending more money to make more roads may 136 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:50.680 not necessarily have a straightaway. 137 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.000 Impact the way you imagine. 138 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:55.240 It is also important that you can make a highway 139 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.160 and you can make a rural road. And you may 140 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:02.240 find that highways can be made through highly mechanized ways. 141 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:05.600 You know, big machines can make highways, whereas maybe smaller 142 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.000 rural roads might require more human labor. So even for 143 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:12.399 creation of job, you know, you could choose to spend 144 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:15.839 money in a way which creates more roads but less 145 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:19.639 job or more jobs and you know, smaller roads. So 146 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:24.480 this holy issue gets more nuanced. But broadly speaking, spending 147 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:27.480 less on education for a country like India, which is 148 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:30.759 the most populous country on the planet, as well as 149 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:34.559 one which is one of the youngest and which has 150 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:38.679 a population that needs education and high quality education to 151 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:42.200 be part of a economy which is, you know, buffeted 152 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:46.279 by technological change, we need to empower our citizens and 153 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.759 young people to be part of that story, of that 154 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:53.799 growth story. If we do not spend that money. There 155 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:56.519 is a very good chance that those who are making 156 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:01.320 roads or other goods in the economy may choose more 157 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:05.519 capital solutions, more machines than human beings, and that will 158 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:06.759 create a problem for us. 159 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:11.559 But also does spending more money automatically lead to a 160 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:12.840 better education system. 161 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.600 So on the whole one could say that, yes, spending 162 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:19.679 more would help matters. It's maybe necessary, but not a 163 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:22.519 sufficient condition. Let me put it that way. As we've 164 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:27.200 seen in many instances where roads have sunk, new roads 165 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:29.879 that were built have sunk, new highways have sunk, or 166 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:32.399 bridges have collapsed. You can spend a lot of money, 167 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:34.720 but if you've not taken care of how you make it, 168 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:38.200 the quality, and if there is corruption behind it, those 169 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:40.799 things may not actually survive. And you may have spent 170 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:42.759 a lot of money and still not end up with 171 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:45.840 a all whether road or a good quality road. It's 172 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:48.799 the same for education also, if your curriculum is not good, 173 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:52.720 if you have not put other things in order, Like say, 174 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:55.159 you may spend a lot of money making schools, but 175 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:58.200 you may not be spending enough money on curriculum or 176 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:01.759 giving fee to the salaries for your teachers if they 177 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:04.759 are not motivated. If the conditions are not good, then 178 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:08.639 that can create suboptimal outcomes. So, as I said, spending 179 00:10:08.679 --> 00:10:11.759 more money is the first stop. There is no necessary 180 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:15.440 guarantee that it would necessarily mean better outcomes, but more 181 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:19.399 often than not, it typically aligns with better outcomes, just 182 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:22.639 like having a higher GDP or a higher GDP growth 183 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:26.399 is overall more aligned with more prosperity in the country. 184 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:29.480 I know that the unders we're seeing now addressing the 185 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:33.600 repeated exam leaks or shortage of faculty, can those be 186 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:36.840 linked to lower public investment too? Or are those separate 187 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:37.679 issues altogether? 188 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.840 At the heart of the whole point with money is 189 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:44.960 that you know, can you get better outcomes by using money? 190 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:48.679 Can you attract the best talent right at all stages? 191 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.720 Can you have the best equipment? Can you really fund 192 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:55.559 your agencies because ultimately somebody or the other is going 193 00:10:55.639 --> 00:10:57.759 to do that work, so can you get the best 194 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:01.440 people for the job. While government spends, they have to 195 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:04.600 compete in a marketplace where private sector is also there. 196 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:08.000 So it's also about attracting best talent. So it might 197 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:11.960 be very difficult to conclusively say whether more money necessarily 198 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:16.960 helps or doesn't, But more money is necessary for all 199 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:19.720 the other things to fall in line. If you are 200 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:23.519 not going to spend as much and progressively as the 201 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:27.679 data is showing, starve a department like education or funds 202 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.399 not spend as much. Like your total budget might be 203 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:32.879 going up by ten percent and year on year and 204 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:35.879 education might be going up only by five percent. You 205 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:40.039 are effectively dragging your feet on that issue and it 206 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.919 will create problems, It will hold back from improvements. So 207 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:47.080 that is the point to be made right now. 208 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:51.039 Another thing that you highlighted earlier was that the governments 209 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:55.320 often argue that the focus today is shifting from education 210 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:59.679 to skills. So does the budget data support that claim? 211 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:04.120 Yes, So, I mean it's fairly sobering the data. I've 212 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:06.600 put it in the piece. Also, if you look at 213 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:09.000 the Ministry of Skill Development, which was carved out as 214 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:13.080 a separate ministry in twenty fifteen sixteen because of a 215 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:17.200 very well recognized need that our education is different from 216 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:20.639 the skilling needs that we have and often there is 217 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:24.000 too much emphasis on higher education and then producing some 218 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:27.639 class of people who are perhaps not as employable in 219 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:30.799 the private sector, so because they lack the skills. So 220 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:34.320 a new department was made a Ministry of Skill Development. 221 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:37.480 But if you look at the budget allocation to Ministry 222 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.120 of Skill Development as again as a percentage of the 223 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:45.200 total allocation, those numbers are abissimally low. It started off 224 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:49.759 with something like zero point zero five or six percent 225 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:52.759 of the total budget, which is to say that up 226 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:56.519 to a first decimal digit it is zero and it 227 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:59.639 has largely stayed in that range. Even in the last 228 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:03.799 and which ended in March, the total expenditure as a 229 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:07.600 share of on total expenditure on skill development as a 230 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:09.120 percentage of the total. 231 00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:10.720 Budget was zero point zero five. 232 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:14.360 So it is abessimally low if we really are serious 233 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:19.440 about skilling India's youth and making them capable and employable 234 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:21.720 and part of a India growth story. 235 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:24.120 So then data is fairly. 236 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:27.440 Damning that you know, it is not actually aligned with 237 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:31.399 the aspirations that people might have or the overall recognition 238 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:36.720 that everybody has that India has to empower, educate and 239 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:41.919 scale its people for the growth to really give good results. 240 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.679 It's no point growing at seven or eight percent if 241 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:47.440 your economy is not creating good quality jobs and people 242 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:48.879 are not able to take part in it. 243 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:52.720 I know that we often see debates about how countries 244 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.720 like Finland or close of home China have transformed themselves 245 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:01.399 through education. So how does India's public space compare internationally 246 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:05.639 and also how does this budget debate fit into the 247 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:07.960 broader landscape of the ongoing protests. 248 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:13.240 So while the current protests happening in jun Monther might 249 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:18.039 have been triggered by the leaks in the NEAT exams 250 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:22.039 and other examinations, there is now a greater call for 251 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.799 overhauling India's education and taking a closer. 252 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:26.039 Look at it. 253 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:29.279 And it is true that India never spent as much 254 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:33.799 as it was supposed to on education. Academics across over 255 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:36.679 time have said that, you know, India should be spending more. 256 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.200 Even the education policies that have come out over time 257 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:45.720 have demanded higher shares of public spending on education. And 258 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:48.639 as we've shown in this data, instead of going up, 259 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:51.960 it has actually come down in very significant ways. The 260 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:56.080 important thing to understand is that we can compare India's 261 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:59.840 numbers internationally, but it is important to understand that India 262 00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:04.080 is not exactly comparable with every international country. For example, 263 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:05.879 if you were to look at say Japan or a 264 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:09.519 Germany and compare it with India. Those are economies of 265 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:14.039 comparable GDP, you know, overall economic output, but might have 266 00:15:14.200 --> 00:15:18.279 much I mean, they have much smaller populations, fewer kids 267 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:21.480 to educate, and might have a very different structure of 268 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.879 their economy. So how we spend our money and how 269 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.519 much we spend has to be determined by the number 270 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:30.960 of people we have and what are we trying to 271 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:33.639 educate them for. You know, what are we trying to 272 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:35.960 skill them for? So it has to be a more 273 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:40.440 holistic approach instead of just looking at just an amount 274 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:43.600 of money. While it should be clear that we should 275 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:47.240 be increasing our public spending on education, there should not 276 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:50.919 be a one to one correlation between what other countries 277 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:53.440 are doing because we are in a different stage of 278 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.919 our development. We have far more kids in our economy, 279 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:01.679 much younger population, much larger, younger popular and also the 280 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.559 shape and structure of our economy. What are we trying 281 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:07.120 to skill them for. So all those things have to 282 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:10.320 be kept in mind when you're deciding something like this. 283 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.519 And next we turn to a story from Uttar Pradesh 284 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:21.840 where the future of thousands of students hangs in the balance. 285 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:26.240 Students of the Muhammad Ali Jahor University in Rampur have 286 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:30.120 been staging an indefinite sit in protest outside the campus 287 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:34.720 after the Ramput Development Authority ordered the demolition of thirty 288 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:38.960 eight university buildings. The students say the move puts not 289 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:42.639 just their education but also their future and careers at 290 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:46.279 risk and are demanding that the order be withdrawn. The 291 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:50.000 demolition order has also drawn criticism because it is the 292 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:54.240 only university in the Muslim majority district of Rampur. To 293 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:57.399 understand what led to this demolition order and what it 294 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:00.960 means for the students, my colleague Aharakan Nanda speaks to 295 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:04.279 the Indian Expresses, Malchi said, who has been reporting on 296 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:04.799 this for. 297 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:08.160 The paper malt, can you first tell us a bit 298 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:12.200 about the Mohammad Ali Johori University. What kind of significance 299 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:14.480 does it hold for the people of the region. 300 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:19.319 See, this university was basically established by an act in 301 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:22.920 two thousand and five. It was during Mulayan Singh led 302 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.119 Samajuwadhi Party gument Nuta Padesha at that point of time, 303 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:32.839 but before the university could actually start establishing or creating infrastructure. 304 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:35.960 In two thousand and seven, again the elections were their 305 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:39.400 NBSP government came to par so this university kind of 306 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:42.559 went into the back burner. But the establishment of the 307 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:46.720 campus and everything is started when in twenty twelve Samajwadi 308 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:49.880 Party government again came to par and A Clasia became 309 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.799 the Chief Minister, so the rest of the developments and 310 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:55.559 everything is started. At that point of time, the university 311 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:58.839 becomes significant because in Rampur per Se, which is a 312 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:02.960 minor de dominated region, there's no other university beat private 313 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:07.400 or the government. Recently, in Muradabad one university has been opened, 314 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.759 but last year its campus is still under construction. So 315 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:13.079 at that point of time and up till recently, there's 316 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:16.119 no other university in Rampur as such. And even though 317 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:19.799 this was a private university, but as the students say 318 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.440 that they used to get a lot of consitions in 319 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.319 admissions in this particular university, and especially they mentioned that 320 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.279 it was significant for the girls student because usually the 321 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:32.640 parents of the neighboring areas would not allow the girls 322 00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:35.640 to go too far off districts just to study. So 323 00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:39.359 even though they are colleges within Rampur who are affiliated 324 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:42.519 to other universities, because there's no other university within the 325 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.079 district as such, yeah, and tell. 326 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.480 Us about the order. What did the rdsay regarding the demolition? 327 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:49.599 Yeah? 328 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:53.480 See on June twenty eight. Recently, the Rampu Development Authority 329 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:57.119 had given notice to the university to explain why they 330 00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:00.279 do not have the maps approved for thirty eight out 331 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:03.599 of forty building of theirs. So these are different buildings. 332 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:09.200 These include hostels, faculty blocks of the Islamic Studies, law study, 333 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:13.680 law faculty, science, paramedics, different faculty blocks that are there, 334 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:17.599 including a museum as well as a library. So the 335 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:21.119 plea that the Rampu Development Authority had given while issuing 336 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:25.000 the notice was that the university had taken approval for 337 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:28.640 two maps out of forty buildings that were found on spot, 338 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:31.920 but for rest thirty eight they could not find any 339 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:35.799 map approval. So RID had given notice to the university 340 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:40.000 for that, and then they had called the university representatives 341 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:43.119 as well as the representatives of the trust which had 342 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:46.480 formed the university. So in the plea, the trust officials 343 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:50.039 had said that when the university was formed and when 344 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.880 the construction of these buildings, because the officials say that 345 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.599 most of these buildings were constructed before twenty sixteen. So 346 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.160 the trust made a plea that when it was done, 347 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.400 the construction was mostly last the major construction took place 348 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:05.359 at that point of time. The RDA was not into 349 00:20:05.559 --> 00:20:08.359 what idea was into existence. Was this particular region did 350 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:11.519 not come under the jurisdiction of RDA, so RDA has 351 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.880 no authority to ask for a map. So RDA had 352 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.559 called the university authorities again for a one to one 353 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:21.200 meeting and they were given a chance for a personal hearing. 354 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:25.079 But the pleas of the university were not found satisfactory, 355 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:27.440 as the DA said, because they had taken at that 356 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.480 point of time even before because urd this particular ada 357 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:33.960 came into the jurisdiction of RDA in twenty twenty four. 358 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:37.359 Even before that, the two buildings had taken permission from 359 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:40.359 the Jilla Panchayad, which was the authority at that point 360 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:42.759 of time, so they could have taken it for the 361 00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:45.319 rest of the buildings also from the same authority, which 362 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:48.559 they did not. So, not finding the plea of the 363 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.319 trust of satisfactory, the RDA finally decided to issue a 364 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:57.440 demolition order, which was passed on July fifteenth, and they 365 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:00.480 were given a twenty days time to respond. We actually 366 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.319 asked to either demolish these buildings on their own or 367 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:05.720 RDA would do it. And in case rd would do it, 368 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:07.519 the university would have to be at the cost of 369 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:08.519 the entire demolition. 370 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.119 Right, and now we understand that the students of the 371 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:17.240 university are sitting in protest against disorder, So tell us 372 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:18.400 what are their demands. 373 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.279 Yes, about three days after the notice, students sat on 374 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.440 protest outside the gate's main gate of the university and 375 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:28.759 they have been sitting on protests since then. These students 376 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:32.119 have made differently the major really that the students are 377 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:35.400 giving by demolished because these are huge infrastructure. They're saying, 378 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:38.359 in case university did not follow the norms or something 379 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.400 was lacking, it could be made to do so, it 380 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:43.200 could be imposed. Fine, if some name has to be changed, 381 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:46.559 it could be changed. But the major question remains why demolished. 382 00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:49.720 So that has been the major demand of the students 383 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:52.759 that the university premises should not be demolished, because thirty 384 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:55.960 ered buildings would mean that most of the university campus 385 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.160 would be demolished, because the two remaining buildings remained to 386 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.920 be one edmin and the other one being just the 387 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:06.079 medical college. So rest all the faculty buildings, everything would 388 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.200 be demolished. So the students are requesting that the demolition 389 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:13.000 should not take place and if required, the required changes 390 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.599 of fine could be imposed and or some have even 391 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:18.359 requested that government could take over the university. But they 392 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:20.839 have been making a request that it should not be demolished. 393 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:25.519 Right and what kind of political reactions has this situation garnered? 394 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.960 What has this Maajwadi party said about it? 395 00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:31.279 Yeah, I see, initially there was not much of a 396 00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:35.119 response and even after the demolition noticed even the family 397 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:38.720 members of the Splidasamka was the founder of the university, 398 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:41.880 they were kind of looking into the legal option and everything. 399 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.839 So it's only after three or four days major reactions 400 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:48.640 started coming in. Just this Thursday, SPED delegation went to 401 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:52.240