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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 4: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker BTK.
Speaker 4: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 4: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 4: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 5: Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupansky for the
Speaker 5: program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime
Speaker 5: History and the authors that have written about them. To
Speaker 5: his parishioners, Minister Matt Baker seemed to pious and a
Speaker 5: good man to his wife Carrie. He was a devoted
Speaker 5: husband and caring father, Always sonny and devacious. Carrie never
Speaker 5: questioned their frequent relocations from one small Texas Baptist church
Speaker 5: to another. Even when tragedy struck, Carrie remained strong until
Speaker 5: one day, inexplicably, she took her own life. To friends
Speaker 5: and family, However, Carrie's suicide made no sense and a
Speaker 5: struggle with questions they couldn't answer. Why couldn't Matt hold
Speaker 5: a job with any one church? Why did he cut
Speaker 5: off all contact with Carrie's devastated parents soon after her death,
Speaker 5: and who was the blonde companion he had began appearing
Speaker 5: with just days after the funeral. But it would take
Speaker 5: a team of investigators and dogged determination to bring Matt
Speaker 5: Baker's dark secrets to light, revealing a shocking history of lies, infidelity, cruelty,
Speaker 5: and sexual abcession that may have led a serial predator
Speaker 5: cloaked in God's word to commit murder. The book that
Speaker 5: we're going to be featuring this evening is Deadly Little
Speaker 5: Secrets with my special guest, journalist and author Katherine Casey.
Speaker 5: Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much
Speaker 5: for this interview. Catherine Casey, Well, thank you.
Speaker 6: For inviting me. Dan, I'm really thrilled to be here.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you very much. It's going to be a
Speaker 5: great little interview here because it's a great book and
Speaker 5: a very fascinating story. So first off, as I often ask,
Speaker 5: what brought you to this story? What compelled you or
Speaker 5: motivated you really, because it takes a lot of motivation
Speaker 5: to write a book and a lot of work. What
Speaker 5: fascinated you about this case or interested you about this
Speaker 5: case that you decided to write about this particular case.
Speaker 6: Well, I live in Houston, and this happened in Waco, Texas,
Speaker 6: and I started following the newspaper articles. It was just
Speaker 6: such a compelling case, the idea that this minister may
Speaker 6: have killed his wife, and all of the clubs that
Speaker 6: law enforcement committed in the investigation. It was just a
Speaker 6: fascinating case to follow.
Speaker 5: Right. So you're very familiar with this little part of
Speaker 5: Texas being somewhat in the vicinity. Tell us where this occurs,
Speaker 5: where Waco, Texas for those people that might not know,
Speaker 5: and you give a history of so maybe even give
Speaker 5: it a brief history of the really the most I
Speaker 5: guess important event that happened in Waco, Texas that left
Speaker 5: an indelible mark on America and probably the world. Tell
Speaker 5: us about a little bit about Waco, Texas well.
Speaker 6: Waco is in the Hill country. It's north of Houston,
Speaker 6: north of Austin, in Rolling Hills. It's beautiful countryside, and
Speaker 6: it's where David Koresh hold up with his followers Branch
Speaker 6: Davidians and where the FBI and HTF were held at
Speaker 6: bay for so many days. Of course, that ended in
Speaker 6: a horrible fireball that killed dozens and dozens of people
Speaker 6: it's also the epicenter of the Baptist Church. It's where
Speaker 6: Baylor University is. In Baylor is the university, the Baptist University.
Speaker 5: And we're talking about a community of about one hundred
Speaker 5: and twenty six thousand. Then, like you say, it's fairly
Speaker 5: close to Austin and fairly close to San Antonio. And
Speaker 5: so it's in this area, in this sort of pretty
Speaker 5: well famous Texas area here, and so tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit more about some of the roots of the
Speaker 5: religious roots. How we talk about communities being deeply religious
Speaker 5: or having a religious history, tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: more about how deep the roots go religiously religious wise.
Speaker 6: In Waco, this is a deeply religious city in the
Speaker 6: middle of the Texas Bible bells. There are churches, mainly
Speaker 6: Baptist churches, and just about every other corner, some huge,
Speaker 6: some small, and people, you know, God blessed when they
Speaker 6: see each other on the street, they're seeing saying grace
Speaker 6: over their their meals and restaurants. People take religion their
Speaker 6: patriotism very seriously here. It's very Middle America and very religious.
Speaker 5: And for those that don't know, and I was raised
Speaker 5: Roman Catholics, so I'm not so familiar. But is the
Speaker 5: would you say, just to clarify, Baptist church would be
Speaker 5: right wing or right or left of say, what would
Speaker 5: you consider conservative religious people? Which which way would it
Speaker 5: be a little bit more right of that or left
Speaker 5: of that?
Speaker 6: It would it would be conservative religious. It's very middle
Speaker 6: conservative Middle America. You know, it's it's an interesting community.
Speaker 6: It's had its history with David Koresh and that's really
Speaker 6: what it's known for. And people tend to stay in Waygo.
Speaker 6: Families are very tight and everything circles around the family
Speaker 6: and the church.
Speaker 5: Right now, tell us a little bit about first off,
Speaker 5: I guess if we could introduce some of the characters
Speaker 5: main characters in this fascinating story. Let's talk about Matt
Speaker 5: Baker and his parents and where they were in the country,
Speaker 5: and what was his background was, How was early life
Speaker 5: in Matt Baker's life and his parents? What was Matt
Speaker 5: Baker's background?
Speaker 6: Well, from the outside, it appeared that he grew up
Speaker 6: in a very devout family in Kerrville, Texas, which is
Speaker 6: just south of Austin, south of San Antonio a little bit,
Speaker 6: another beautiful small community in Texas. The family was very,
Speaker 6: very active in the Baptist Church, the primary Baptist church
Speaker 6: in Kerrville. They did missions together. His parents were foster
Speaker 6: parents and had approximately fifty foster children while Matt was
Speaker 6: growing up. Matt was always very active in missions and
Speaker 6: very active at the church.
Speaker 5: Now, what was there anything extraordinary unusual? What was what
Speaker 5: were his friends and people around him? What were their
Speaker 5: comments or general views about him around that time? In
Speaker 5: his high school age? What was he characterized as?
Speaker 6: Matt was considered to be kind of a nice guy.
Speaker 6: He was kind of a small kid, had kind of
Speaker 6: bushy brown hair and really beautiful blue eyes. And really
Speaker 6: they thought that he was just this nice religious kid.
Speaker 6: He never got in any trouble that anybody knew of,
Speaker 6: and people dads were glad that their daughters dated him.
Speaker 5: Right now, when did religion become a bigger part or
Speaker 5: some form of focus for Matt? At what age do
Speaker 5: people notice that he was gravitating towards taking his religion
Speaker 5: a little more serious than the average person living in
Speaker 5: the community.
Speaker 6: Well, in the Baptist Church, people are baptized when they
Speaker 6: accept Jesus Christ. It's not like in the Catholic Church,
Speaker 6: where they're baptized at infants, and Matt was baptized at
Speaker 6: at quite a young age, which was six, and he
Speaker 6: seemed devout from the very beginning. He talked a lot
Speaker 6: about church, He talked a lot about God. He expressed
Speaker 6: the ambition to work within a church, maybe in a
Speaker 6: recreation program when he went off to Baylor, when he
Speaker 6: left Curville for Waco, and once he got to Waco,
Speaker 6: he continued in. They have a program to instruct future
Speaker 6: ministers and future church workers, and he continued on in
Speaker 6: that program.
Speaker 5: So he entered in This is around nineteen ninety. We'll
Speaker 5: say he began his career in his education.
Speaker 6: At Baylor University in Waco, and he was working part
Speaker 6: time at that point at the Baptist Church in Waco,
Speaker 6: the largest Baptist church. He was helping to oversee the
Speaker 6: youth program.
Speaker 5: Now in that first nineteen ninety because you did extensive
Speaker 5: interviews and you have information about people that were spoken
Speaker 5: to all along the way, it seems in his life
Speaker 5: as far as you could discover, what was nineteen ninety
Speaker 5: characterized by what were people's thoughts about him in school
Speaker 5: and what was he considered? How was he considered in
Speaker 5: that first year in nineteen ninety and were there any
Speaker 5: type of events whatsoever.
Speaker 6: Well, they were kind of at that point the split
Speaker 6: in Math's personality started to shine through. On one hand,
Speaker 6: when he was working as a trainer with the Baylor
Speaker 6: football team, he was one of those who bent farthest
Speaker 6: down on his knees during procession with his eyes closed,
Speaker 6: in his hands folded, and seemed the most enraptured. But
Speaker 6: then at other times, you know, the people talked about
Speaker 6: the fact that he grabbed a girl and kissed her
Speaker 6: at a party. And then something happened while he was
Speaker 6: at Baylor. He assaulted, I attempted to sexually assault a
Speaker 6: young woman in one of the bathroom showers. Fought him off,
Speaker 6: She only got a way from him by biting him
Speaker 6: in the shoulder, and she filed a complaint with Baylor University,
Speaker 6: but nothing was done.
Speaker 5: Was that Laurie Wilson.
Speaker 6: That was Laura Wilson.
Speaker 5: Laura Wilson Wilson partly so she filed a complaint and
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit more about how he could
Speaker 5: have evaded any kind of trouble with that. How did
Speaker 5: that work?
Speaker 6: Well, she was assured. I mean he literally dan chased
Speaker 6: her in the bathroom and assaulted her and pushed her
Speaker 6: up against a sink, and you know what may have
Speaker 6: continued on if she hadn't fought him off, and she
Speaker 6: did press. You know, she did go to authorities within
Speaker 6: the athletic program, and she was told he would be
Speaker 6: taken care of, but it wasn't. And they told her
Speaker 6: they convinced her not to go to the police herself
Speaker 6: because they said that they would handle us. But Baylor
Speaker 6: did nothing. Matt continued on at school. He said later
Speaker 6: that he had a brief talk with someone in the
Speaker 6: hierarchy at the university before he was allowed back in
Speaker 6: the next semester, and that they sided with him. The
Speaker 6: proof of the pudding was that he was allowed to
Speaker 6: continue on at Baylor.
Speaker 5: Right, especially in the capacity, and that he was. And
Speaker 5: it also it seems in retrospect always hindsight is much
Speaker 5: easier to do, but that this would have been a
Speaker 5: pivotal time to intercede on everyone's behalf right around them.
Speaker 6: Well, it might have changed history. It might have actually
Speaker 6: saved at least one life down in the road. People would
Speaker 6: have known who Matt Baker was. He would have had
Speaker 6: a record. Instead, he continued on as one of the
Speaker 6: chosen ones, one of the young men, you know, ministerial students.
Speaker 5: Now, let's get to Carrie Dolan and but and then
Speaker 5: we'll lead right up to how they came to meet
Speaker 5: each other and how that first that first impression, and
Speaker 5: how the relationship evolved. Tell us about Carrie Dolan and
Speaker 5: her early life, where was she from originally, and tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about her background.
Speaker 6: Well, Carrie's mom was kind of an army brad and
Speaker 6: it moved around the world with her with her family
Speaker 6: growing up, and the family had settled in central Texas
Speaker 6: and it was there actually Carrie was born in Salt
Speaker 6: Lake City. When Linda was married and her biological father,
Speaker 6: her father, died in a motorcycle accident, Linda moved back
Speaker 6: with Carrie to Waco and there met Jim Doolin and
Speaker 6: they started a family. They had a very close family
Speaker 6: along with all of Linda's sisters who lived in the area.
Speaker 6: So it it's just kind of this big family with luck,
Speaker 6: with aunts and uncles and lots of cousins. And Carrie
Speaker 6: was just this kind of happy kid growing up.
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Speaker 6: Plus you know, she loved to sing. The Julians had
Speaker 6: religion in their background. They were a religious family as well.
Speaker 6: They had a couple of ministers in the family and
Speaker 6: one of the uncles was a music music minister at
Speaker 6: a Baptist church down in Florida. So they went, you know,
Speaker 6: they centered their life to around in their face. And
Speaker 6: Carrie went away to Texas Tech at one point when
Speaker 6: she graduated from high school, and it was at Tech
Speaker 6: that things got just a little bit wild, not terribly wild,
Speaker 6: but a little bit. She belonged to a sorority, and
Speaker 6: she decided she wanted to come back and reclaim her roots.
Speaker 6: So after the year at Texas Tech, she moved back
Speaker 6: to Waco and was looking at continuing school there and
Speaker 6: eventually getting into Baylor, and she began working in the
Speaker 6: same program Matt did at First Baptist Church in Waco,
Speaker 6: and it was there that their paths crossed for the
Speaker 6: first time.
Speaker 5: Now, according to friends and people at the time that
Speaker 5: you interviewed, what was Carrie's impression of Matt Baker.
Speaker 6: Matt was a catch A lot of the girls in
Speaker 6: the program, A lot of the girls at Baylor thought
Speaker 6: that he was this really sweet, really devout, just great guy.
Speaker 6: And he talked a lot about wanting to go out
Speaker 6: and help people, carrying them a word of God out
Speaker 6: to the people. And Carrie had expressed to her mother
Speaker 6: the desire to get back to her roots, to get
Speaker 6: back to her religion, and to find a good Christian
Speaker 6: man to marry, and Matt appeared from what Carrie knew
Speaker 6: at that point, from what Matt showed the world, he
Speaker 6: appeared to fit the bill. So he was considered quite
Speaker 6: a catchup bailor.
Speaker 5: And he was also wanting to combine athletics in his
Speaker 5: career as well, if he had a deep interest in
Speaker 5: that as well. So again just you know saying young
Speaker 5: people too also have an interest in the physical So
Speaker 5: there was this physical attraction as well.
Speaker 6: Oh there was. I mean when they met, they were
Speaker 6: very attracted to one another. It seemed like from the
Speaker 6: beginning they became a couple, started showing up at church
Speaker 6: together in the morning and leaving in the evening together,
Speaker 6: and we're rarely seen alone. They were only dating for
Speaker 6: a couple of months when they announced that they wanted
Speaker 6: to get married.
Speaker 3: Now in the.
Speaker 5: Ensuing two months and before the announcement, and I you know,
Speaker 5: I could just imagine you in two months you make
Speaker 5: an announcement like that, I don't care who you are,
Speaker 5: as open minded as anyone. There would be some concern.
Speaker 5: But what was the general impression of from Carrie's family
Speaker 5: about Matt what. I know it's after the fact, but again,
Speaker 5: what did they say that their impression was of Matt
Speaker 5: and the relationship itself.
Speaker 6: You know, they didn't see the attraction. They looked at
Speaker 6: Matt and he seemed like kind of this odd, odd
Speaker 6: little guy, this kind of strange guy. And you know,
Speaker 6: he did some odd things like at family gatherings, instead
Speaker 6: of going on watching football with the with the men
Speaker 6: in the living room while the women talked and laughed
Speaker 6: in the kitchen, Matt would stand at the doorway to
Speaker 6: the kitchen and listen to the women talk. And some
Speaker 6: of Carrie's fans thought that that was strange, like he
Speaker 6: was listening in and monitoring her conversation. He was just
Speaker 6: kind of odd. And Carrie tent when she met Matt,
Speaker 6: dropped all of her friends. It was as if he
Speaker 6: monopolized all of her time.
Speaker 5: Right now, what was what was the impression from Matt's
Speaker 5: parents about what were their thoughts about the relationship.
Speaker 6: Matt's mom told me that she too was concerned that
Speaker 6: they were moving too fast. Both sets of parents wanted
Speaker 6: them to hold off. Matt's mom said that they liked Carrie,
Speaker 6: but they just thought it was too soon. But Matt
Speaker 6: and Carey were really determined. And that's August before school started,
Speaker 6: before Baylor started again, and Carrie began first at the
Speaker 6: community college and then went on to Baylor later. They
Speaker 6: married at the Dulan's home.
Speaker 5: So how did they get the parents to go along
Speaker 5: with this? This must have been some bit of convincing
Speaker 5: on both of their parts, because, like you say, you know,
Speaker 5: deeply religious, and what's the hurry? And everybody wants to
Speaker 5: make sure that this is something that they're very very
Speaker 5: serious about, especially in a religious community, that they take
Speaker 5: this institution, this step into marriage, very very seriously. How
Speaker 5: could he? Was he that charming? Were they that convinced?
Speaker 5: How could they persuade both families to sort of put
Speaker 5: aside their fears and go along with this.
Speaker 6: Well, Linda Doulan, Carrie's mom, told her that they were
Speaker 6: going to be on their own. They're going to have
Speaker 6: to pay their own brand. They wouldn't be paying her
Speaker 6: bills any longer. They were not going to keep up
Speaker 6: the payments on her car I mean, they really tried
Speaker 6: to slow it down. It wasn't that they didn't want
Speaker 6: Carrie to mar Mary Matt. They didn't want carry to
Speaker 6: marry anyone that quickly. But Carrie was just determined. And
Speaker 6: when Carrie was determined, she was forced to be dealt with.
Speaker 6: She had a lot of spunk and she was in
Speaker 6: love with Matt and she wasn't taking no for an answer.
Speaker 6: And Matt was just as determined. He called up his
Speaker 6: mother and said, listen, two can live as cheaply as one, uh,
Speaker 6: maybe cheaper than to you know, than to two people
Speaker 6: living separately. And you know, the families went along with it.
Speaker 5: Now, what was the marriage itself, the the what was
Speaker 5: it like? Were there any events? Tell us about the
Speaker 5: actual marriage ceremony.
Speaker 6: Well, the marriage ceremony was very uh, you know, very small,
Speaker 6: and it was at the Doolan's home, Carrie's uncle, I believe,
Speaker 6: it was married and he's a Baptist minister and she,
Speaker 6: you know, she had a beautiful white down and he
Speaker 6: was all dressed up. His shirt looked a little bit
Speaker 6: and the pictures I've seen his shirt was a little
Speaker 6: big around the collar. And they looked like two kids
Speaker 6: getting married, because they were kind of two kids getting married,
Speaker 6: and there was a lot of hope for the future.
Speaker 6: They were excited. Their families at that point had given
Speaker 6: into the marriage and they were excited for them, and
Speaker 6: they were hoping that there was a bright future ahead.
Speaker 6: But before long things started to crop up, and you
Speaker 6: know it was obvious that there were other issues.
Speaker 5: How long before any before we'll say, Carrie saw some
Speaker 5: changes and some concerns and was she forthcoming with her
Speaker 5: family and the almost sister cousin. Was she sharing some
Speaker 5: of this information about her concerns? Tell us how long
Speaker 5: it took before she had some concerns before, and then
Speaker 5: how long before she expressed this to anyone.
Speaker 6: You know, Carrie really didn't express concerns about Matt. She
Speaker 6: bought into Matt. She believed in Matt's very persuasive, he
Speaker 6: could be very manipulative, he could explain things away. There
Speaker 6: were allegations right about the time of the marriage floating
Speaker 6: around about Matt having attempted to kiss or been inappropriate
Speaker 6: with some of the teenage girls at First Baptist in
Speaker 6: the rec program when he was there, and that he
Speaker 6: had made an improper suggestion to someone, an older woman
Speaker 6: who worked at First Baptist, and rather than listen to
Speaker 6: what was being said and considerate, Carrie immediately dismissed it.
Speaker 6: It was not her Matt. Her Matt wouldn't do that.
Speaker 6: That couldn't be true. Carrie believed in Matt, she loved him,
Speaker 6: and she chose to look the other way.
Speaker 5: Now, well, what were some of the issues that you
Speaker 5: alluded to that cropped up or came up as they
Speaker 5: soon after them that they tied the knot. What were
Speaker 5: some of these issues that seemed to be of concern.
Speaker 6: Well, the first one was the one I just mentioned,
Speaker 6: these allegations at first Baptist that he'd been inappropriate, made
Speaker 6: inappropriate advances towards some of the women there. And then
Speaker 6: time went on and other things happened. They were living
Speaker 6: in a townhouse that shared a parking lot with the
Speaker 6: townhouse behind them, and the teenage girl who lived in
Speaker 6: the opposite townhouse told her mother that Matt had grabbed
Speaker 6: her in the parking lot and kissed her and had
Speaker 6: made an advance toward her, and that got back to
Speaker 6: Carrie's ann's and Carrie's ann Carrie found out about it.
Speaker 6: But rather than you know, demand Matt explain now this
Speaker 6: is a second allegation in a short period of time
Speaker 6: against Matt, instead of demanding that Matt explained, Carrie went
Speaker 6: over and you know, shouted at and pleaded with the
Speaker 6: with the girl saying, how could you say that about Matt.
Speaker 6: That's not true. Don't say that about my husband, that
Speaker 6: can't be true. She just really believed in Matt and
Speaker 6: she loved him, and by that time she was pregnant
Speaker 6: they'd been married for a little while, and she was
Speaker 6: pregnant with her first daughter, so she had a family.
Speaker 6: She was planning a future with this man, and she
Speaker 6: was determined that he was going to be the guy
Speaker 6: she believed he.
Speaker 5: Was right now, how was he as a father?
Speaker 6: You know, he was a pretty good father. He pitched
Speaker 6: in and helped take care of the kids. Before long,
Speaker 6: Carrie was pregnant again. At that point, Matt was working
Speaker 6: at the y in Waco in a youth program there
Speaker 6: where there were more allegations made against him, and Carrie
Speaker 6: again ignored them or sided with Matt. She didn't ignore them,
Speaker 6: but she sided with Matt against the women making the allegations.
Speaker 6: But because really the math that Carrie saw was this
Speaker 6: religious husband who gave her a Bible in which he
Speaker 6: inscribed it and said that he hoped that this would
Speaker 6: be her. You know, she would write in this Bible
Speaker 6: as she went through life and put her thoughts in there,
Speaker 6: her deepest thoughts. He was the good father who helped
Speaker 6: take care of their daughters, the one who helped bathed
Speaker 6: the kids at night and read them stories. She saw
Speaker 6: this good man. She didn't see the others.
Speaker 5: Matt no when she did, and I don't say she
Speaker 5: confronted him, but when she did ask about these allegations
Speaker 5: that were so many of them, was he you know,
Speaker 5: classically I guess people might you know, might come up
Speaker 5: if he was really defensive, or if he got very
Speaker 5: very angry, or if he was you know, didn't want
Speaker 5: to answer the questions at all, And so what was
Speaker 5: his demeanor when she did ask him there, to ask
Speaker 5: him any questions.
Speaker 6: Matt always had an explanation, and they were on the
Speaker 6: surface if you didn't really take a look at what
Speaker 6: was happening and add it all up, you know, I mean,
Speaker 6: they were plausible explanations. The girls at the why he
Speaker 6: said that he was trying to counsel them, you know,
Speaker 6: I mean he's a minister. He said he was trying
Speaker 6: to or studying to be a minister at that point,
Speaker 6: that he was trying to counsel them about you know, entering,
Speaker 6: you know, being a teenager and about sexuality. And they
Speaker 6: took it wrong. They misinterpreted it was always the woman's fault,
Speaker 6: that it was never that he had actually done anything.
Speaker 6: And Carrie wanted to believe him, I mean, wanting to
Speaker 6: believe somebody is a very powerful influence in a relationship show,
Speaker 6: wanting Matt to be telling the truth, and she believed him.
Speaker 5: Now they have they're married. You said they were married
Speaker 5: at a young age. Approximate what age were they married
Speaker 5: at and what's the difference in their age?
Speaker 6: You know, there's just a few years apart, and I
Speaker 6: think Carrie was about nineteen, right.
Speaker 5: So now we're further along in the story here, maybe
Speaker 5: we can get it when they have the two they
Speaker 5: have the two children, and what situation are they at
Speaker 5: at that time once the arrival of the second child,
Speaker 5: and what's going on in his life now? Because there's
Speaker 5: so many allegations, are police ever involved with this? Have
Speaker 5: they been called?
Speaker 6: A police have never been called. He was let go
Speaker 6: at the y and he was denied unemployment benefits because
Speaker 6: he was fired for sexual harassment. He was fired for cause,
Speaker 6: But the police were never notified of anything until Laura Wilson,
Speaker 6: the first woman, the woman from Baylor that he accosted
Speaker 6: in the you know, in the restroom, filed a complaint
Speaker 6: with the Waygo Police department. But at that point it
Speaker 6: was past the statute of limitations, so the police couldn't
Speaker 6: do anything. So but they Carrie and Matt were both
Speaker 6: going to school. Matt was continuing on. Now people at
Speaker 6: Baylor knew about the allegation that Laura Wilson had made,
Speaker 6: but they allowed Matt to go ahead, not only finishing
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Speaker 1: No, it's necessary.
Speaker 2: I believe we're privited by loss.
Speaker 1: He terms and conditions eighteen plus to get.
Speaker 6: Into the master's program there, master of Ministry. So he
Speaker 6: continued on. He got into a very prestigious program.
Speaker 5: At the school, and that prestigious program brought him what.
Speaker 6: Well it would have brought it. Eventually he had a
Speaker 6: master's degree, which you know, from Baylor University, so it
Speaker 6: was a big deal for him. He was being groomed
Speaker 6: to you know, work in a large Baptist church. He
Speaker 6: was charismatic on the pulp. People liked listening to him.
Speaker 6: He came across as one of the shining lights, one
Speaker 6: of the future stars.
Speaker 5: Right, And at what point did he meet this? If
Speaker 5: I'm jumping ahead, I might be when did he meet
Speaker 5: Vanessa Bulls? Well?
Speaker 6: Uh, the Baker's second daughter died after having been ill
Speaker 6: with cancer. And uh. And then they had a third
Speaker 6: daughter named Grace, and they were living in Hewett, Texas
Speaker 6: outside a Waco, and Matt was ministering in a small
Speaker 6: church called Crossroads, and Vanessa Bulls was the music minister's daughter.
Speaker 6: She was quite a bit younger than Matt and carey,
Speaker 6: beautiful young girl she had. She was divorced and had
Speaker 6: had a child, a baby, a little girl named Lily,
Speaker 6: who was just a few months old at the time.
Speaker 6: And as he had with others in the past, Matt
Speaker 6: began making overtures toward her, sexual overtures, and before long
Speaker 6: she was visiting him at their home on Fridays when
Speaker 6: Carrie was at work and Matt had the day off.
Speaker 5: Now let's go back, as I apologize, because we jumped ahead,
Speaker 5: and they'll confuse the audience a little bit. So I'll
Speaker 5: repair that somewhat. This is we just glossed over a
Speaker 5: little bit. But her daughter that dies ca Caassidy, right, Cassidy, Yes, Cassidy.
Speaker 5: Now Cassidy dies? How much? How this sunny disposition, this happy,
Speaker 5: go lucky woman that, even though she's saddled with this
Speaker 5: infidelity from her husband, still believes in her husband and
Speaker 5: doubts the word of these allegers. This person that was,
Speaker 5: like you say, described as a sunny disposition, a very
Speaker 5: happy person. This is important to to the trial and
Speaker 5: later to the story. How affected was she, How devastated
Speaker 5: was she and what was it? What was the overall
Speaker 5: effect in terms of devastation In terms for Carrie when
Speaker 5: her daughter, when the daughter died.
Speaker 6: She was angry, and she was hurt, and she was upset,
Speaker 6: and she was devastated. She was depressed for a little while.
Speaker 6: She had a very difficult time. Carrie Cassidy wasn't supposed
Speaker 6: to die. She had had some surgery, she'd been in
Speaker 6: the hospital for quite a while, but she came home
Speaker 6: with a pretty good prognosis and then died in the
Speaker 6: middle of the night one night, and Carrie was very upset.
Speaker 6: She was very despondent over her daughter's death.
Speaker 5: Was there any talk of was there any suicidal thoughts
Speaker 5: or in this depression? Was she prescribed any any antidepressants?
Speaker 5: And was it long term? Tell us about that it?
Speaker 5: Was there any any talk of suicide? Was there any
Speaker 5: Was she under a doctor's order of prescription for depressants
Speaker 5: antidepressants at that time? Tell us about that that kind
Speaker 5: of care.
Speaker 6: No, she had no ani depressants. She had briefly had
Speaker 6: a prescription for a sleeping pill, but didn't renew it.
Speaker 6: She went to a therapist and a grief therapist, grief
Speaker 6: counselor and talked through it, and a counselor in her
Speaker 6: note said that Carrie was never suicidal.
Speaker 5: And she must have recovered to a certain point. At
Speaker 5: least she had another daughter, Grace. They had another daughter, Grace,
Speaker 5: and there was no evidence that she had any postpartum
Speaker 5: problems or any problems around that time or after the
Speaker 5: child was born.
Speaker 6: She got blue around the anniversary of Cassidy's death every
Speaker 6: year and would have two or three bad days where
Speaker 6: she might stay home and not go to school. She
Speaker 6: was a teacher at that point, So she sometimes sat
Speaker 6: around and watched movies of Cassidy and thought about her.
Speaker 6: They would release balloons every year on Cassidy's the date
Speaker 6: of Cassidy's death. But no, for the most part, she
Speaker 6: was she was happy, especially once Grace was born. Grace
Speaker 6: really was kind of a helped she really helped carry heal.
Speaker 5: Right, right now, what was Matt Baker's reaction after his
Speaker 5: daughter died and what did how did he respond in
Speaker 5: terms of his behavior or what was his what was
Speaker 5: his condition like after his daughter died.
Speaker 6: Matt was stone faced through the entire episode. Nobody some cry,
Speaker 6: even the night of Cassidy's death in the emergency room
Speaker 6: at the hospital, when the nurses and doctors were crying,
Speaker 6: Matt wasn't. He was back up on the pulpit within
Speaker 6: a week. Carrie was very confused by all this. Couldn't
Speaker 6: understand how she could be so upset when Matt showed
Speaker 6: no emotion.
Speaker 5: And that did that was at a continuing issue with
Speaker 5: her from that time on, that that that I have
Speaker 5: that profound an effect on her, that that stayed with her.
Speaker 5: That conclusion, I think she.
Speaker 6: Always wondered why Matt hadn't shown more grief when Cassidy died,
Speaker 6: But once Grace came along and their lives went on.
Speaker 6: Matt was ministering at the church and he was working,
Speaker 6: and she was teaching. She taught in an elementary school
Speaker 6: in Waco, and they had these two daughters to raise,
Speaker 6: and as life can, but you know, goes on. People
Speaker 6: put these things aside and just try to deal with
Speaker 6: what's going on in their lives at the time, so
Speaker 6: it didn't become an overwhelming division between them. Known.
Speaker 5: Okay, so we're now we're backed up to him meeting Vanessa.
Speaker 5: So tell us again how they met and how their
Speaker 5: relationship evolved, and again tell us a little bit more
Speaker 5: about that.
Speaker 6: Well, Vanessa was this beautiful young girl, young woman who
Speaker 6: was the music minister's daughter at Matt's church. And Carrie
Speaker 6: was very active at the church. She was there all
Speaker 6: the time with the youth groups, working with the women's clubs,
Speaker 6: and she made Vanessa at the same time too. And
Speaker 6: the Christmas after Vanessa began coming to the church, which
Speaker 6: would have been five, Matt went up to her at
Speaker 6: one point and said something on the she was talking
Speaker 6: on the phone. She was divorced and she was telling
Speaker 6: a friend that she was going to start dating again
Speaker 6: or some guy wanted to date her and Matt. When
Speaker 6: she hung up the phone, Matt said to her, you
Speaker 6: should you know, you should do that? And he said,
Speaker 6: she said what, And he said, date your minister, And
Speaker 6: she said something on the order of you know, does
Speaker 6: your wife know? And he said no, carry doesn't have
Speaker 6: a clue.
Speaker 5: And who did she tell us to?
Speaker 6: Ultimately, well, far down the road she told us to
Speaker 6: authorities and then testified to it in the courtroom.
Speaker 5: Okay, now, so he suggests an affair, and so how
Speaker 5: do they again, you said, even go to the family home?
Speaker 5: Is he professing love? Is this a sexual affair? What
Speaker 5: is Is there any talk of any kind of goals?
Speaker 1: Is he?
Speaker 6: Uh?
Speaker 5: Is he discontent with his own marriage? What's I mean?
Speaker 5: These are deeply religious people's houses going on. How are
Speaker 5: they justifying it between them?
Speaker 6: Well, Matt told Matt was Vanessa's minister and told her
Speaker 6: that it was okay, that God didn't mind, and and
Speaker 6: Vanessa and Matt started spending more time together. They were
Speaker 6: spending these fridays together. At first, she said that he
Speaker 6: was helping her through her divorce, but it became sexual,
Speaker 6: and he told her early on that if if he
Speaker 6: fell in love with her, if they fell in love,
Speaker 6: that he would get rid of Carrie.
Speaker 5: And what did he mean? What did he mean by
Speaker 5: not get Before.
Speaker 6: Along, he started talking about ways to get rid of
Speaker 6: Carrie with Vanessa, and they included things like staging a
Speaker 6: drive by shooting, or putting something into her milkshakes and
Speaker 6: giving a tour to drink.
Speaker 5: Now, let's go back a little bit. Who how is
Speaker 5: Vanessa listening to this information? She didn't She doesn't have
Speaker 5: this kind of background, whereas nobody really has this kind
Speaker 5: of background. So how is she listening to this is
Speaker 5: a tongue in cheek? Is she thinking he's bravado? Is
Speaker 5: she thinking he's exaggerating? Is there some alcohol involved here?
Speaker 5: I mean? What does she think? And why does she
Speaker 5: think this is sounding reasonable to her?
Speaker 6: Well, she's not going to authority, she's not telling Carrie
Speaker 6: that this is going on. She's taking no action to
Speaker 6: stop match. She became a sounding board for him as
Speaker 6: he planned his wife's murder. At one point he started
Speaker 6: talking about staging suicide, and at that point he claims
Speaker 6: that Carrie had once attempted suicide so everyone would believe
Speaker 6: that she had done it, that she was despondent about Cassidy.
Speaker 6: The anniversary of Cassidy's death is coming up, so the
Speaker 6: timing is good. Vanessa said later that she told him
Speaker 6: that nobody would ever believe it, but he said, oh no,
Speaker 6: they would believe it, you know. She said that he was.
Speaker 6: He told her that he was going to type the
Speaker 6: suicide note, and she said, well, nobody will believe that
Speaker 6: she typed a suicide note. And Matt said, well, everybody
Speaker 6: will believe it. Carrie types everything.
Speaker 5: So is there any reason why she doesn't just leave
Speaker 5: this guys? This guy? How does she rationalize this in
Speaker 5: her mind at that time, Like a lot of people
Speaker 5: make up a lie and say, well, listen, I scared,
Speaker 5: I was afraid for my own life. But how does
Speaker 5: she rationalize why at that moment she didn't go to
Speaker 5: authorities or leave him or talk him out of it,
Speaker 5: or is there any justification for that?
Speaker 6: You know, I don't see a justification for that. She
Speaker 6: did nothing to stop him, She made no effort to
Speaker 6: do anything to protect Harry at all. She listened while
Speaker 6: Matt planned a murder. She was telling friends at the
Speaker 6: time that she thought maybe Matt would be a good
Speaker 6: father for her daughter. Now, how she could not have
Speaker 6: thought that if he was willing to murder one wife,
Speaker 6: he might not be willing to murder too, I don't know.
Speaker 6: But the bottom line here is she did nothing to
Speaker 6: stop him.
Speaker 5: Was she involved in the plan? You say she was
Speaker 5: like a sounding board, But did she say that there
Speaker 5: was some point where she thought, Okay, he's going to
Speaker 5: go through with this. Because you mentioned the anniversary. So
Speaker 5: the anniversary is April or is it March for her
Speaker 5: daughter dying, Cassidy dying.
Speaker 6: I believe it's March twenty third.
Speaker 5: I don't have it right in front of me, but
Speaker 5: I believe, yeah, yeah, it's near the end of March
Speaker 5: or April. Because Okay, so he's discussing this a little
Speaker 5: bit previous to this anniversary and telling her that it's
Speaker 5: a good idea. So how much so he lays out
Speaker 5: give us what he lays out to her in terms
Speaker 5: of the entire idea of how he's going to pull
Speaker 5: off this suicide, this murder and portray it as a suicide.
Speaker 6: Well, as I said, he talks about different options like
Speaker 6: to drive by shooting. He starts talking about putting something
Speaker 6: in Carrie's milkshake. There are emails that go back and
Speaker 6: forth between Carrie and Matt at the time. One of
Speaker 6: those emails references Matt saying that he's going to make
Speaker 6: her another milkshake. This time was not so much chocolate
Speaker 6: in it. I get it sounds as if he gave
Speaker 6: her a milkshake she didn't like, perhaps one that there
Speaker 6: was something in. So the plan is kind of formulating,
Speaker 6: it's kind of percolating, and by then Matt is getting
Speaker 6: on the computer and he's looking for drugs that he
Speaker 6: can buy over the internet. The computer of evidence would
Speaker 6: later show that he was going back and forth between
Speaker 6: pornography websites, looking at peorn on his BAP on his
Speaker 6: church computer from the Baptist church, and looking for amby
Speaker 6: and presumably to give his wife right.
Speaker 5: Now leading up to this, in this last a few days,
Speaker 5: almost a week before this murder, tell us some of
Speaker 5: the just if there's any particular spectacular or interesting events
Speaker 5: just previous to this, and then maybe we could lead
Speaker 5: up to the actual event.
Speaker 6: Well, there was a rift developing between Carrie and Matt.
Speaker 6: Matt didn't want to have relations with Carrie for the
Speaker 6: first time in their marriage. He wasn't interested in her sexually.
Speaker 6: He was pushing her away and she felt that so
Speaker 6: alls that show that this rift developed within the marriage.
Speaker 6: There was a lot of arguing. Matt claimed that he
Speaker 6: blamed her, blame Carrie for Cassidy's death. There was a
Speaker 6: lot of strong emotion during that week before and Carrie
Speaker 6: went to She found some ground up pills in Matt's briefcase,
Speaker 6: and on some levels she must have known or she
Speaker 6: suspected that they may have been he may have planned
Speaker 6: to use them on her, because she then went to
Speaker 6: a therapist and said, I think my husband's trying to
Speaker 6: kill me, but then said, oh, no, that can't be true.
Speaker 6: Matt would never do that. She also wrote in her
Speaker 6: Bible and asked God to protect her and said, I
Speaker 6: don't know what Matt has planned, but she was afraid.
Speaker 5: Now, what if any concerns from her mother or her
Speaker 5: relatives or sister or siblings. Was there any concern around
Speaker 5: this time? Was there any contact with them? Did she
Speaker 5: reveal anything to them beforehand that there even to say
Speaker 5: that her marriage was troubled? Tell us about that? What
Speaker 5: did they know or think? Just previous to this faithful event.
Speaker 6: Well, they knew. Linda, Carrie's mom, knew that Carrie and
Speaker 6: Matt were having problems, and after the email in which
Speaker 6: Matt blamed Carrie for Cassidy's death, he then Carrie went
Speaker 6: to her mother and said, I think maybe we're going
Speaker 6: to have to get a divorce because I can't live
Speaker 6: with somebody who thinks that i'm you know, that it's
Speaker 6: my fault that our daughter's dead. And Linda, at that time,
Speaker 6: not knowing what was really going on in the marriage,
Speaker 6: not knowing how frightened Carrie was, said no, not divorce,
Speaker 6: go for counseling. Try counseling. She's looking at her daughter,
Speaker 6: she's looking at what she thinks is a good marriage,
Speaker 6: and there are two little girls involved, the two daughters.
Speaker 6: She's trying to help them keep the marriage together. At
Speaker 6: that point, what was the.
Speaker 5: In what way was Carrie supposed to be the murderer
Speaker 5: of her daughter or responsible for their daughter being for dying?
Speaker 5: What was what was?
Speaker 6: It wasn't Yeah, it wasn't murdering her daughter. It was that, Uh,
Speaker 6: she had watched Cassidy suffer so long, after all of
Speaker 6: the operations and everything that at one point she had
Speaker 6: prayed and said, Lord, just you know, don't let her
Speaker 6: hurt anymore. Make it over for her, if you know.
Speaker 6: And Matt, on the other hand, said that he had
Speaker 6: prayed that Cassidy would grow up and be cured and
Speaker 6: be healthy and you know, live a full life. So
Speaker 6: he said it was Carrie's fault that God had answered
Speaker 6: Carrie's prayer and not his.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's uh, that's a manipulation too.
Speaker 6: But he was using Yeah, he was using religion, and
Speaker 6: he was using God in order to make Carrie feel guilty.
Speaker 5: Yep. And then raj and justify what he was orday
Speaker 5: doing himself, cry for away. Yeah, okay, So nobody really knew,
Speaker 5: really there was people that was there anyone that knew
Speaker 5: that he was having this affair outside? Did anybody know this?
Speaker 6: No, Some of the neighbors had noticed Vanessa's car driving
Speaker 6: up and going into the garage on Friday afternoons, but
Speaker 6: they didn't really know what was going on. Nobody put
Speaker 6: you know, put it together. So no one really knew
Speaker 6: about the affair, although I think Carrie suspected it in
Speaker 6: one of her emails when he didn't answer her email
Speaker 6: right away. She said something on the order of, oh,
Speaker 6: I thought you might be busy with your girlfriend. So
Speaker 6: I think she was sensing a lot but was trying
Speaker 6: to convince herself it wasn't real.
Speaker 5: Right now, this is April seventh, two thousand and sixth
Speaker 5: just the after noon before Carrie died. Take us back
Speaker 5: to that afternoon and then the incident itself and describe
Speaker 5: it for us, please.
Speaker 6: Well, she'd had a really good day. She had an
Speaker 6: interview for a job at the middle school. She'd always
Speaker 6: wanted to teach middle school, and she had just aced
Speaker 6: the interview. I mean, she had done beautifully, and she
Speaker 6: heard that she was one of the contenders for the
Speaker 6: slot that was opening up. She was very excited. So
Speaker 6: she went home about three o'clock in the afternoon in
Speaker 6: a really good mood. Within two hours, she showed up
Speaker 6: at the why for Kenzie's swim practice, looking very angry,
Speaker 6: very upset, actually looking like she could be ill. There
Speaker 6: was a lot of tension between her and Matt. Matt
Speaker 6: was there along with both of the girls, and it
Speaker 6: appeared that something had happened during that period of time,
Speaker 6: and Carrie just didn't look well. She looked very upset,
Speaker 6: So they were at swim practice and they left and
Speaker 6: they got home about seven o'clock that night. And the
Speaker 6: next thing that happened was a little bit after midnight
Speaker 6: when Matt called nine one one.
Speaker 5: And what did he say to nine one one operators?
Speaker 6: He said that he had just been gotten home, that
Speaker 6: he was out writing a movie and putting some gas
Speaker 6: in the car, and he found his wife and it
Speaker 6: looked like she'd committed suicide, and that there was a
Speaker 6: note and it said something like she was sorry. And
Speaker 6: the nine one one operator gave him instructions on what
Speaker 6: to do in order to give her CPR, and he
Speaker 6: claimed to be doing that, pulling her off the bed,
Speaker 6: putting her on the floor, and then starting to pound
Speaker 6: on her chest while they were waiting for them and
Speaker 6: the police to show up. And on the phone call,
Speaker 6: Matt can be heard talking the whole time, talking about how, yes,
Speaker 6: he's working on these compressions. He's, you know, trying to
Speaker 6: revive his wife. He's saying things like she's throwing off
Speaker 6: and everything, or there's liquid coming out of her mouth
Speaker 6: and coming out of her her nose. And then the
Speaker 6: next thing he says is, oh, the police are here, Well,
Speaker 6: they had just driven up out front. And what they
Speaker 6: didn't find was Matt working on Carrie. What they found
Speaker 6: was Matt standing on the front porch talking on the phone.
Speaker 6: And who is he talking to the police operator?
Speaker 5: And what was the idea that if he was using
Speaker 5: if he was talking on the telephone, it would be
Speaker 5: pretty hard hard to do that CPR, wouldn't it.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, he had a a cordless phone. He didn't
Speaker 6: have it on speaker, and it would have been pretty
Speaker 6: hard to have hauled Carrie off of the bed while
Speaker 6: he's got the phone perched next to his ear without
Speaker 6: dropping the telephone. And he claimed that she was nude
Speaker 6: at the time, and he had dressed her. The call
Speaker 6: was only I think it's four minutes long, and it's
Speaker 6: very difficult to dress a dead body. And he claimed
Speaker 6: that Carrie was in the bed nude, that he not
Speaker 6: only pulled her off the bed, but he dressed her
Speaker 6: and gave her CPR all before the police showed up.
Speaker 5: And then the idea though his claim that she was
Speaker 5: vomiting French fries. And then he said when questioned, well,
Speaker 5: she had maybe three French fries. And then the examiner
Speaker 5: medical examiner said, well, there wouldn't have been any French fries.
Speaker 5: So there was a lot of not even even before
Speaker 5: you interviewed him, there was a lot of questions about
Speaker 5: his behavior, his story, and his especially that nine one
Speaker 5: one call and what he did or didn't do.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it would turn out that a lot of really
Speaker 6: everything Matt said wasn't plausible. The condition of Carrie's body
Speaker 6: didn't match his story. He claimed have only been gone
Speaker 6: for forty five minutes, but the EMTs found a body
Speaker 6: that was cooling. Bodies only lose about one degree per
Speaker 6: hour right after death. Well, Carrie's body was cooling already,
Speaker 6: it should have still been warm. They found libidity in
Speaker 6: our lower extremities, you know that purplish hue from the
Speaker 6: blood settling after the heart stops. That normally takes quite
Speaker 6: a while in a health the person. There were just
Speaker 6: a lot of things that didn't make sense, but the
Speaker 6: police ignored them or didn't see them and didn't communicate
Speaker 6: that to the justice of the peace. The suicide note
Speaker 6: was typed and unsigned, and what.
Speaker 5: Did the suicide note say? Specifically?
Speaker 6: It basically said that she was very sorry, but that
Speaker 6: she wanted to be with Cassidy and that she was leaving.
Speaker 6: You know that she knew Matt would take good care
Speaker 6: of their daughters and asked him to continue to be
Speaker 6: the good guy, the good father he had always been.
Speaker 6: It was very self serving and talked a lot about
Speaker 6: where the great guy Matt was.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and also they said another unusual thing was that
Speaker 5: in this final note that she would have found it
Speaker 5: odd that she wouldn't mention or say anything about her
Speaker 5: only sibling, which was Adam, so.
Speaker 6: Her brother odd as well too, very strange.
Speaker 5: Now you say police just wrapped up this story. That Again,
Speaker 5: another one point I wanted to make too, is that
Speaker 5: he had said that they tried to loud that she
Speaker 5: was depressed and that she was on medication and on xanax,
Speaker 5: and so tried to bolster his story. But the medical
Speaker 5: examiner found no antidepressants in her system, and there was.
Speaker 5: It was found that she actually didn't have a prescription
Speaker 5: for xanax or any other antidepressant. Isn't that correct?
Speaker 6: No, she didn't. She'd been given one that day, but
Speaker 6: when she'd gone to the doctor that week, she was
Speaker 6: suffering from anxiety attacks. I think because she did understand
Speaker 6: that Matt was trying to hurt her and that you know,
Speaker 6: she was in trouble, but she never actually had the
Speaker 6: prescription fulfilled filled and she didn't have with any drugs.
Speaker 6: There weren't any an depressants or anything in her body.
Speaker 6: There was no xanax. What was in her body was ambient.
Speaker 5: Right now, after this apparent suicide, how does Carrie's family
Speaker 5: react and what is there idea about the suicide? Are
Speaker 5: they giving it any any consideration at all? And then
Speaker 5: what happens as a result of the police wrap up
Speaker 5: and their viewpoint on Matt and the suicide.
Speaker 6: Well, the police made a there was a big error
Speaker 6: maid that night and autopsy was not ordered. That that
Speaker 6: was a big problem. The body was immediately sent to
Speaker 6: the mortuary. The police and the Justice of the peace,
Speaker 6: who could have ordered an autopsy. Neither one of them
Speaker 6: looked at all of you, you know, recognized all the
Speaker 6: alarm going off, and they sent the body to the
Speaker 6: funeral home instead of to a medical examiner. So, when
Speaker 6: Linda and Jim found out that Krrie Community had supposedly
Speaker 6: committed suicide, they were devastated, but they heard that it
Speaker 6: was a clear cut case and they believed that it
Speaker 6: was probably true. They didn't. They didn't understand how they
Speaker 6: could be true because Carrie wasn't depressed, Carrie was doing
Speaker 6: very well in life. Carrie was in a good place,
Speaker 6: So they didn't understand how it could have could be true,
Speaker 6: but they accepted it and part of the reason was
Speaker 6: of course that Matt had their granddaughter,