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Host. 25 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:15.840 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 26 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:18.959 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 27 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:25.120 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker BTK. 28 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.840 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 29 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:34.000 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 30 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:37.560 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 31 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:50.079 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupansky for the 32 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:53.000 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 33 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:56.480 History and the authors that have written about them. To 34 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:00.319 his parishioners, Minister Matt Baker seemed to pious and a 35 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:03.560 good man to his wife Carrie. He was a devoted 36 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:07.879 husband and caring father, Always sonny and devacious. Carrie never 37 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:12.400 questioned their frequent relocations from one small Texas Baptist church 38 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:16.759 to another. Even when tragedy struck, Carrie remained strong until 39 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:21.479 one day, inexplicably, she took her own life. To friends 40 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:25.000 and family, However, Carrie's suicide made no sense and a 41 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:28.639 struggle with questions they couldn't answer. Why couldn't Matt hold 42 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:31.439 a job with any one church? Why did he cut 43 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:36.039 off all contact with Carrie's devastated parents soon after her death, 44 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:39.960 and who was the blonde companion he had began appearing 45 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:42.759 with just days after the funeral. But it would take 46 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:45.879 a team of investigators and dogged determination to bring Matt 47 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:51.280 Baker's dark secrets to light, revealing a shocking history of lies, infidelity, cruelty, 48 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:55.719 and sexual abcession that may have led a serial predator 49 00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:59.719 cloaked in God's word to commit murder. The book that 50 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:03.800 we're going to be featuring this evening is Deadly Little 51 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:07.840 Secrets with my special guest, journalist and author Katherine Casey. 52 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:10.319 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 53 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:13.879 for this interview. Catherine Casey, Well, thank you. 54 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:16.120 For inviting me. Dan, I'm really thrilled to be here. 55 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:19.560 Well, thank you very much. It's going to be a 56 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:22.919 great little interview here because it's a great book and 57 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:28.560 a very fascinating story. So first off, as I often ask, 58 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:33.759 what brought you to this story? What compelled you or 59 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:37.280 motivated you really, because it takes a lot of motivation 60 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:39.199 to write a book and a lot of work. What 61 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:43.400 fascinated you about this case or interested you about this 62 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:47.199 case that you decided to write about this particular case. 63 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:51.479 Well, I live in Houston, and this happened in Waco, Texas, 64 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:54.919 and I started following the newspaper articles. It was just 65 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:58.599 such a compelling case, the idea that this minister may 66 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:03.199 have killed his wife, and all of the clubs that 67 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:08.080 law enforcement committed in the investigation. It was just a 68 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:09.439 fascinating case to follow. 69 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:16.399 Right. So you're very familiar with this little part of 70 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:22.120 Texas being somewhat in the vicinity. Tell us where this occurs, 71 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:24.759 where Waco, Texas for those people that might not know, 72 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:27.720 and you give a history of so maybe even give 73 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:32.240 it a brief history of the really the most I 74 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:37.360 guess important event that happened in Waco, Texas that left 75 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:40.759 an indelible mark on America and probably the world. Tell 76 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:44.399 us about a little bit about Waco, Texas well. 77 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:47.920 Waco is in the Hill country. It's north of Houston, 78 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:52.639 north of Austin, in Rolling Hills. It's beautiful countryside, and 79 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:56.759 it's where David Koresh hold up with his followers Branch 80 00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:00.959 Davidians and where the FBI and HTF were held at 81 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:04.160 bay for so many days. Of course, that ended in 82 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:08.959 a horrible fireball that killed dozens and dozens of people 83 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:14.319 it's also the epicenter of the Baptist Church. It's where 84 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:20.399 Baylor University is. In Baylor is the university, the Baptist University. 85 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.519 And we're talking about a community of about one hundred 86 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:27.680 and twenty six thousand. Then, like you say, it's fairly 87 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:32.519 close to Austin and fairly close to San Antonio. And 88 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.680 so it's in this area, in this sort of pretty 89 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:40.279 well famous Texas area here, and so tell us a 90 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:42.480 little bit more about some of the roots of the 91 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:47.839 religious roots. How we talk about communities being deeply religious 92 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.279 or having a religious history, tell us a little bit 93 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:54.560 more about how deep the roots go religiously religious wise. 94 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:59.120 In Waco, this is a deeply religious city in the 95 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:03.160 middle of the Texas Bible bells. There are churches, mainly 96 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.600 Baptist churches, and just about every other corner, some huge, 97 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:10.759 some small, and people, you know, God blessed when they 98 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:14.720 see each other on the street, they're seeing saying grace 99 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:19.240 over their their meals and restaurants. People take religion their 100 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:25.439 patriotism very seriously here. It's very Middle America and very religious. 101 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:29.120 And for those that don't know, and I was raised 102 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:33.600 Roman Catholics, so I'm not so familiar. But is the 103 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:37.800 would you say, just to clarify, Baptist church would be 104 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:43.759 right wing or right or left of say, what would 105 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:47.240 you consider conservative religious people? Which which way would it 106 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:50.160 be a little bit more right of that or left 107 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:50.480 of that? 108 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:55.600 It would it would be conservative religious. It's very middle 109 00:06:55.759 --> 00:07:03.120 conservative Middle America. You know, it's it's an interesting community. 110 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:07.199 It's had its history with David Koresh and that's really 111 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:13.519 what it's known for. And people tend to stay in Waygo. 112 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:17.879 Families are very tight and everything circles around the family 113 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:18.519 and the church. 114 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:25.160 Right now, tell us a little bit about first off, 115 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:27.839 I guess if we could introduce some of the characters 116 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:33.360 main characters in this fascinating story. Let's talk about Matt 117 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:38.279 Baker and his parents and where they were in the country, 118 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:43.120 and what was his background was, How was early life 119 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:47.199 in Matt Baker's life and his parents? What was Matt 120 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:48.199 Baker's background? 121 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:51.360 Well, from the outside, it appeared that he grew up 122 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:55.720 in a very devout family in Kerrville, Texas, which is 123 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:58.800 just south of Austin, south of San Antonio a little bit, 124 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:06.720 another beautiful small community in Texas. The family was very, 125 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:10.839 very active in the Baptist Church, the primary Baptist church 126 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:15.319 in Kerrville. They did missions together. His parents were foster 127 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:20.839 parents and had approximately fifty foster children while Matt was 128 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:24.480 growing up. Matt was always very active in missions and 129 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:26.319 very active at the church. 130 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:35.919 Now, what was there anything extraordinary unusual? What was what 131 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:39.879 were his friends and people around him? What were their 132 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:44.320 comments or general views about him around that time? In 133 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:48.480 his high school age? What was he characterized as? 134 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:52.320 Matt was considered to be kind of a nice guy. 135 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:56.480 He was kind of a small kid, had kind of 136 00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:03.440 bushy brown hair and really beautiful blue eyes. And really 137 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:06.759 they thought that he was just this nice religious kid. 138 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:11.320 He never got in any trouble that anybody knew of, 139 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:18.919 and people dads were glad that their daughters dated him. 140 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:26.399 Right now, when did religion become a bigger part or 141 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:31.879 some form of focus for Matt? At what age do 142 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:36.879 people notice that he was gravitating towards taking his religion 143 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:39.759 a little more serious than the average person living in 144 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:40.360 the community. 145 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:44.240 Well, in the Baptist Church, people are baptized when they 146 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:47.440 accept Jesus Christ. It's not like in the Catholic Church, 147 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:50.759 where they're baptized at infants, and Matt was baptized at 148 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:53.440 at quite a young age, which was six, and he 149 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.159 seemed devout from the very beginning. He talked a lot 150 00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:59.360 about church, He talked a lot about God. He expressed 151 00:09:59.399 --> 00:10:03.399 the ambition to work within a church, maybe in a 152 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:07.120 recreation program when he went off to Baylor, when he 153 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.519 left Curville for Waco, and once he got to Waco, 154 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:17.080 he continued in. They have a program to instruct future 155 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:20.960 ministers and future church workers, and he continued on in 156 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:24.440 that program. 157 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:27.559 So he entered in This is around nineteen ninety. We'll 158 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:34.279 say he began his career in his education. 159 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.200 At Baylor University in Waco, and he was working part 160 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:44.200 time at that point at the Baptist Church in Waco, 161 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:47.440 the largest Baptist church. He was helping to oversee the 162 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:48.360 youth program. 163 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:54.519 Now in that first nineteen ninety because you did extensive 164 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:58.240 interviews and you have information about people that were spoken 165 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:01.879 to all along the way, it seems in his life 166 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:06.399 as far as you could discover, what was nineteen ninety 167 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:10.440 characterized by what were people's thoughts about him in school 168 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:14.519 and what was he considered? How was he considered in 169 00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:17.440 that first year in nineteen ninety and were there any 170 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:19.519 type of events whatsoever. 171 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:23.759 Well, they were kind of at that point the split 172 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:27.879 in Math's personality started to shine through. On one hand, 173 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:30.559 when he was working as a trainer with the Baylor 174 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:33.759 football team, he was one of those who bent farthest 175 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.240 down on his knees during procession with his eyes closed, 176 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:40.679 in his hands folded, and seemed the most enraptured. But 177 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:44.399 then at other times, you know, the people talked about 178 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:47.600 the fact that he grabbed a girl and kissed her 179 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:51.399 at a party. And then something happened while he was 180 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:56.639 at Baylor. He assaulted, I attempted to sexually assault a 181 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:00.960 young woman in one of the bathroom showers. Fought him off, 182 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:03.279 She only got a way from him by biting him 183 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:08.679 in the shoulder, and she filed a complaint with Baylor University, 184 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:11.679 but nothing was done. 185 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:13.759 Was that Laurie Wilson. 186 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:15.600 That was Laura Wilson. 187 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:20.720 Laura Wilson Wilson partly so she filed a complaint and 188 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:24.120 tell us a little bit more about how he could 189 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.519 have evaded any kind of trouble with that. How did 190 00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:27.960 that work? 191 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:35.120 Well, she was assured. I mean he literally dan chased 192 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:38.039 her in the bathroom and assaulted her and pushed her 193 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:45.200 up against a sink, and you know what may have 194 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:49.080 continued on if she hadn't fought him off, and she 195 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:52.679 did press. You know, she did go to authorities within 196 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:54.639 the athletic program, and she was told he would be 197 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:57.960 taken care of, but it wasn't. And they told her 198 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.559 they convinced her not to go to the police herself 199 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:04.320 because they said that they would handle us. But Baylor 200 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:08.200 did nothing. Matt continued on at school. He said later 201 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:11.440 that he had a brief talk with someone in the 202 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:14.000 hierarchy at the university before he was allowed back in 203 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:17.279 the next semester, and that they sided with him. The 204 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:19.399 proof of the pudding was that he was allowed to 205 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:20.919 continue on at Baylor. 206 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:28.480 Right, especially in the capacity, and that he was. And 207 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.080 it also it seems in retrospect always hindsight is much 208 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:35.080 easier to do, but that this would have been a 209 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:40.559 pivotal time to intercede on everyone's behalf right around them. 210 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:43.480 Well, it might have changed history. It might have actually 211 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:47.080 saved at least one life down in the road. People would 212 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.320 have known who Matt Baker was. He would have had 213 00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:52.679 a record. Instead, he continued on as one of the 214 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:57.399 chosen ones, one of the young men, you know, ministerial students. 215 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:06.320 Now, let's get to Carrie Dolan and but and then 216 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:09.639 we'll lead right up to how they came to meet 217 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:13.440 each other and how that first that first impression, and 218 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:18.039 how the relationship evolved. Tell us about Carrie Dolan and 219 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:21.840 her early life, where was she from originally, and tell 220 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:24.000 us a little bit about her background. 221 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.639 Well, Carrie's mom was kind of an army brad and 222 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:30.159 it moved around the world with her with her family 223 00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:33.960 growing up, and the family had settled in central Texas 224 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:37.919 and it was there actually Carrie was born in Salt 225 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:42.200 Lake City. When Linda was married and her biological father, 226 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:46.399 her father, died in a motorcycle accident, Linda moved back 227 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.440 with Carrie to Waco and there met Jim Doolin and 228 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:54.840 they started a family. They had a very close family 229 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:59.080 along with all of Linda's sisters who lived in the area. 230 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:01.960 So it it's just kind of this big family with luck, 231 00:15:02.200 --> 00:15:07.000 with aunts and uncles and lots of cousins. And Carrie 232 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.559 was just this kind of happy kid growing up. 233 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:12.320 She hello, it is Ryan and I was on a 234 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:14.360 flight the other day playing one of my favorite social 235 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.279 spin slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over 236 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:19.159 the person sitting next to me, and you know what 237 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:22.000 they were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, 238 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:24.480 I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba 239 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:26.919 Casino's home to hundreds oft casino style games. 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And 251 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:06.080 Carrie went away to Texas Tech at one point when 252 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:10.639 she graduated from high school, and it was at Tech 253 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.320 that things got just a little bit wild, not terribly wild, 254 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:15.799 but a little bit. She belonged to a sorority, and 255 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:19.080 she decided she wanted to come back and reclaim her roots. 256 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.279 So after the year at Texas Tech, she moved back 257 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:26.799 to Waco and was looking at continuing school there and 258 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:31.240 eventually getting into Baylor, and she began working in the 259 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:35.840 same program Matt did at First Baptist Church in Waco, 260 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:38.720 and it was there that their paths crossed for the 261 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:39.279 first time. 262 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:48.080 Now, according to friends and people at the time that 263 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:52.080 you interviewed, what was Carrie's impression of Matt Baker. 264 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:55.840 Matt was a catch A lot of the girls in 265 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:58.720 the program, A lot of the girls at Baylor thought 266 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:04.000 that he was this really sweet, really devout, just great guy. 267 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:07.240 And he talked a lot about wanting to go out 268 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:10.559 and help people, carrying them a word of God out 269 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:15.000 to the people. And Carrie had expressed to her mother 270 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:18.200 the desire to get back to her roots, to get 271 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:21.119 back to her religion, and to find a good Christian 272 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.079 man to marry, and Matt appeared from what Carrie knew 273 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:28.519 at that point, from what Matt showed the world, he 274 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:32.359 appeared to fit the bill. So he was considered quite 275 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:33.200 a catchup bailor. 276 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:39.920 And he was also wanting to combine athletics in his 277 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.240 career as well, if he had a deep interest in 278 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:46.200 that as well. So again just you know saying young 279 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:48.799 people too also have an interest in the physical So 280 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:50.839 there was this physical attraction as well. 281 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:53.559 Oh there was. I mean when they met, they were 282 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.480 very attracted to one another. It seemed like from the 283 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:01.839 beginning they became a couple, started showing up at church 284 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:04.759 together in the morning and leaving in the evening together, 285 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:08.440 and we're rarely seen alone. They were only dating for 286 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:11.039 a couple of months when they announced that they wanted 287 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:11.680 to get married. 288 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:15.319 Now in the. 289 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:20.440 Ensuing two months and before the announcement, and I you know, 290 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:23.039 I could just imagine you in two months you make 291 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:25.200 an announcement like that, I don't care who you are, 292 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.720 as open minded as anyone. There would be some concern. 293 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:33.480 But what was the general impression of from Carrie's family 294 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:38.599 about Matt what. I know it's after the fact, but again, 295 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.200 what did they say that their impression was of Matt 296 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:43.880 and the relationship itself. 297 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.960 You know, they didn't see the attraction. They looked at 298 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:50.359 Matt and he seemed like kind of this odd, odd 299 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:54.240 little guy, this kind of strange guy. And you know, 300 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:59.480 he did some odd things like at family gatherings, instead 301 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.039 of going on watching football with the with the men 302 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:04.720 in the living room while the women talked and laughed 303 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.359 in the kitchen, Matt would stand at the doorway to 304 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.400 the kitchen and listen to the women talk. And some 305 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.440 of Carrie's fans thought that that was strange, like he 306 00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:17.000 was listening in and monitoring her conversation. He was just 307 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.839 kind of odd. And Carrie tent when she met Matt, 308 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.519 dropped all of her friends. It was as if he 309 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:26.359 monopolized all of her time. 310 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:34.359 Right now, what was what was the impression from Matt's 311 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:37.000 parents about what were their thoughts about the relationship. 312 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:41.599 Matt's mom told me that she too was concerned that 313 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.559 they were moving too fast. Both sets of parents wanted 314 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:48.920 them to hold off. Matt's mom said that they liked Carrie, 315 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.359 but they just thought it was too soon. But Matt 316 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:57.759 and Carey were really determined. And that's August before school started, 317 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:01.279 before Baylor started again, and Carrie began first at the 318 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:04.839 community college and then went on to Baylor later. They 319 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:06.839 married at the Dulan's home. 320 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.880 So how did they get the parents to go along 321 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:16.160 with this? This must have been some bit of convincing 322 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:19.480 on both of their parts, because, like you say, you know, 323 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:23.400 deeply religious, and what's the hurry? And everybody wants to 324 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:26.079 make sure that this is something that they're very very 325 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.799 serious about, especially in a religious community, that they take 326 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:35.039 this institution, this step into marriage, very very seriously. How 327 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:38.359 could he? Was he that charming? Were they that convinced? 328 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.880 How could they persuade both families to sort of put 329 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:43.559 aside their fears and go along with this. 330 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:49.000 Well, Linda Doulan, Carrie's mom, told her that they were 331 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:50.480 going to be on their own. They're going to have 332 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:53.160 to pay their own brand. They wouldn't be paying her 333 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:56.119 bills any longer. They were not going to keep up 334 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.000 the payments on her car I mean, they really tried 335 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:02.119 to slow it down. It wasn't that they didn't want 336 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:04.319 Carrie to mar Mary Matt. They didn't want carry to 337 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:10.119 marry anyone that quickly. But Carrie was just determined. And 338 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:13.119 when Carrie was determined, she was forced to be dealt with. 339 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:16.519 She had a lot of spunk and she was in 340 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:19.119 love with Matt and she wasn't taking no for an answer. 341 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:22.160 And Matt was just as determined. He called up his 342 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:26.039 mother and said, listen, two can live as cheaply as one, uh, 343 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.759 maybe cheaper than to you know, than to two people 344 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:35.359 living separately. And you know, the families went along with it. 345 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:42.359 Now, what was the marriage itself, the the what was 346 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:45.559 it like? Were there any events? Tell us about the 347 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:47.240 actual marriage ceremony. 348 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.400 Well, the marriage ceremony was very uh, you know, very small, 349 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.440 and it was at the Doolan's home, Carrie's uncle, I believe, 350 00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:02.720 it was married and he's a Baptist minister and she, 351 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:05.039 you know, she had a beautiful white down and he 352 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:07.039 was all dressed up. His shirt looked a little bit 353 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:10.079 and the pictures I've seen his shirt was a little 354 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:13.400 big around the collar. And they looked like two kids 355 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:16.079 getting married, because they were kind of two kids getting married, 356 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:19.119 and there was a lot of hope for the future. 357 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.920 They were excited. Their families at that point had given 358 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.039 into the marriage and they were excited for them, and 359 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:27.359 they were hoping that there was a bright future ahead. 360 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:32.240 But before long things started to crop up, and you 361 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.759 know it was obvious that there were other issues. 362 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:41.759 How long before any before we'll say, Carrie saw some 363 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:48.799 changes and some concerns and was she forthcoming with her 364 00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:54.400 family and the almost sister cousin. Was she sharing some 365 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:57.480 of this information about her concerns? Tell us how long 366 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:00.880 it took before she had some concerns before, and then 367 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:02.799 how long before she expressed this to anyone. 368 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:07.960 You know, Carrie really didn't express concerns about Matt. She 369 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:12.039 bought into Matt. She believed in Matt's very persuasive, he 370 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:17.279 could be very manipulative, he could explain things away. There 371 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:21.400 were allegations right about the time of the marriage floating 372 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:26.920 around about Matt having attempted to kiss or been inappropriate 373 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.359 with some of the teenage girls at First Baptist in 374 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.559 the rec program when he was there, and that he 375 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:37.480 had made an improper suggestion to someone, an older woman 376 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:43.000 who worked at First Baptist, and rather than listen to 377 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:46.680 what was being said and considerate, Carrie immediately dismissed it. 378 00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:49.200 It was not her Matt. Her Matt wouldn't do that. 379 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:53.200 That couldn't be true. Carrie believed in Matt, she loved him, 380 00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:55.799 and she chose to look the other way. 381 00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:00.200 Now, well, what were some of the issues that you 382 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.400 alluded to that cropped up or came up as they 383 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:08.039 soon after them that they tied the knot. What were 384 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:12.319 some of these issues that seemed to be of concern. 385 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:15.759 Well, the first one was the one I just mentioned, 386 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:20.440 these allegations at first Baptist that he'd been inappropriate, made 387 00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:24.240 inappropriate advances towards some of the women there. And then 388 00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:28.000 time went on and other things happened. They were living 389 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.000 in a townhouse that shared a parking lot with the 390 00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:35.640 townhouse behind them, and the teenage girl who lived in 391 00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:40.279 the opposite townhouse told her mother that Matt had grabbed 392 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:45.200 her in the parking lot and kissed her and had 393 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.759 made an advance toward her, and that got back to 394 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:53.240 Carrie's ann's and Carrie's ann Carrie found out about it. 395 00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:59.680 But rather than you know, demand Matt explain now this 396 00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:02.200 is a second allegation in a short period of time 397 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:06.240 against Matt, instead of demanding that Matt explained, Carrie went 398 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:11.720 over and you know, shouted at and pleaded with the 399 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:15.680 with the girl saying, how could you say that about Matt. 400 00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:17.920 That's not true. Don't say that about my husband, that 401 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:23.119