WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:08.839 The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:10.000 an idea. 3 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:13.519 The population of atheists this country is going through the. 4 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:19.039 Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I 5 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:22.600 tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not. 6 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:24.600 Because I put my hand on a book and made 7 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:26.679 a wish. 8 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:28.839 And working together for a more rational world. 9 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:32.399 Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth, 10 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:34.719 Fusian wisdom will come to you that way. 11 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:43.520 Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the 12 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:52.799 Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. 13 00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:00.200 We talk a lot about the Bible being written by 14 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:03.960 men and how Christians are often saying, you know, it's 15 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:06.879 it's a pro woman book. And I want to get 16 00:01:06.879 --> 00:01:10.480 into that with the authors of a new book just released. 17 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:14.599 It's called Clearly Written by Boys, A Woman's Guide to 18 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:19.560 the Bible, written by Karis Burkowski and Dave Fitzgerald, and 19 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:22.079 they joined me here. So good to see you both. 20 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:25.239 Absolutely great to see you, Chris. 21 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:27.159 I know that you've done some writing in the past 22 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:30.280 about the man made nature of gods. I just did 23 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:32.640 a speech on this. I'm always referring to my previous 24 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:35.040 speeches and because you know how it is. You do 25 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:38.000 this long enough, and there's always a reference work in 26 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:41.439 the queue in the holster. But we see our gods 27 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:44.439 that look like us, and so this is this is 28 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:46.760 very familiar territory for you, right. 29 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:51.680 Well, yeah, I mean the first book was Why Men 30 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:54.519 Made God? And then this time when David came up 31 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.400 with the idea clearly written by boys, I just jumped 32 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:00.359 on it. I loved it because it's so much more 33 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:04.599 appropriate like that. The nature of that thinking behind why 34 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:08.479 it was written that way is far more like a 35 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:10.639 bunch of nineteen year old in celts than it is 36 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:12.039 about you know, mature men. 37 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:16.000 It is a biblical Mannosphere. Oh, we're going to talk 38 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:20.680 about that. David Fitzgerald, historical researcher, is a buddy. We've 39 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.120 known each other forever because we're always talking about his 40 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:28.560 heretical works, including Nailed Jesus, Mything and Action Playing God. 41 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:33.280 The Evolutionary History of World Religion is book on the Mormons, 42 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:37.560 you blasphemer going after God. 43 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.159 Yeah, it's fun, it's a living. 44 00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:46.680 Well all right, let's before we get into more unfamiliar territory, 45 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:49.599 because this is a well versed audience sewing in the 46 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:53.680 bimless misogynistic, and it was even the garden and blah 47 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:56.479 blah blah. But you guys take a much much deeper dive, 48 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:58.400 which is why I wanted to have the conversation. But 49 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:03.000 we got to talk about Eve. So Eve is tempted 50 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:05.879 by the snake. The snake's whispering in Eve's ear, she 51 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:11.120 whispers in Adam's ear. God is somehow surprised, and then 52 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:14.800 he gets pissed, and there are punishments. Now, the punishment 53 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:17.400 for Adam is to he's going to have to labor 54 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:22.120 on the land, but the punishment for Eve is a 55 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:25.199 labor of a different kind. Caros will start with you 56 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.680 even the garden. You want to get into some of 57 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:28.639 the problems there. 58 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:33.000 Well, first of all, her big punishment is because she's 59 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:37.960 seeking knowledge. I mean the serpent, which we kind of 60 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:41.800 talk a little bit about being a character out of 61 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:48.879 the old Great Goddess kind of stories, the pre biblical 62 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:52.719 belief system when the Great Mother was the birther of 63 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:55.560 all life on the planet and all of that. But 64 00:03:56.199 --> 00:03:59.599 the serpent whispers to her that she can gain knowledge. 65 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.080 Wants to gain knowledge, so she takes the apple. Well, 66 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:07.520 that's just can't be. That's just the biggest crime ever. 67 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:10.400 So you know that's what makes God meant so he 68 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:14.159 punishes her physically. She's going to have pain and suffering 69 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.680 and all that kind of stuff, and she's going to 70 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:20.560 be lusting after her husband. I'm not sure which interpretation 71 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:21.759 of those words we talked about. 72 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:25.600 How it can be desire for your husband. Yes, you 73 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:27.160 shall rule over you. 74 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:30.839 No, I totally. I totally read it as you will 75 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:33.319 want to have sex, you will have sexual desire, and 76 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:35.360 this is part of Eve's curse. In fact, it was 77 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:39.920 how my sisters were taught about biblical womanhood in our 78 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:43.079 very evangelical home. So yeah, I mean that's how I 79 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:45.519 read it, Keras anyway, okay, but. 80 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:47.839 It's interesting how many different ways you can spin that, 81 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:49.920 and none of them are particularly good for women. 82 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:54.199 Okay. So, by the way, for the pedantic in the audience, 83 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:59.160 we know the Bible doesn't say apple, but Christian tradition apple, right, 84 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:01.879 we got even the apple. That's how we come to 85 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:04.120 I'm just I'm getting in front of it for you, Kiris, 86 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:07.439 because I know where you're going with that. You included 87 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:10.399 a poem in the first part of the book, and 88 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:12.560 I just want to read it. It's very short by 89 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:17.800 Daniel Coffin. It's titled If Adam Picked the Apple, and 90 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:21.360 it says there would be a parade, a celebration, a 91 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:25.639 holiday to commemorate the day he sought enlightenment. We would 92 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:28.720 not speak of temptation by the devil. Rather, we would 93 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:33.680 laud Adam's curiosity is desire for adventure and knowing we 94 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:38.639 would feast on apple inspired fair torts, Chutney's pancakes, pies. 95 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:42.079 There would be plays and songs re enacting his courage. 96 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.519 But it was Eve who grew bored, weary of her 97 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:50.079 captivity in Eden. And a woman's desire for freedom is 98 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:55.800 rarely a cause for celebration. Powerful stuff that. 99 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:59.040 Is so good. Where when we discover that poem, like 100 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:00.759 it's perfect fit. 101 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:05.519 Interesting that it's a sexual punishment for Eve, like for Adam. 102 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.240 You're gonna work your ass off, there will be weeds 103 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:12.839 on the land. Okay, fine, Eve, it's gonna hurt like 104 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.600 a mother to reproduce, and you're gonna have the hots 105 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:19.120 for your husband, who will rule over you. I just 106 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:20.199 mind that. Fascinating. 107 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:23.279 Yeah, And of course it's the it's the woman's fault 108 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:26.519 that men get horny for her because you know it's 109 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:29.680 it's woman's desire. Yet, you know, we don't hear much 110 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.240 about husband rape in history. We hear a lot about 111 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:34.600 spousal rape, you know, of wives. 112 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:38.160 I know it's going to be a subjective answer. And 113 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:43.920 we see a ton of female evangelical preachers leader figures 114 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:45.680 here in the twenty first century. But it's been the 115 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:48.680 case for the longest time. You know what comes to mind, 116 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:51.399 off Rod, We've got Joyce Meyer, we got Beth Moore, 117 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:55.600 we got Paula White, we got Victoria Ostein, et cetera. 118 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:58.959 Many of these people are just freaking celebrity, best selling millionaire, 119 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:03.800 celebrity pastors. How do you think these people reconcile their 120 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:08.079 leadership with two Timothy? You know the woman be silent thing, Karrots, 121 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:10.399 you're a woman, do you have any thoughts on that? 122 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.480 Well, they just figured out how they can use the 123 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.639 religion to buy into the patriarchy and get some power, 124 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:19.160 so they're going for it. 125 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:22.360 So you think they're using the system. 126 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:24.560 Religion as a tool, so they will use these women 127 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.680 as helpers to use it as a tool. 128 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:29.759 And honestly, at the end of the day, they're quistlings. 129 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.720 They're selling out their own sex for their own money 130 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:34.040 comfort power. 131 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:36.600 Because they're not just preaching to women. I don't think. 132 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:38.399 I think they're preaching to everybody. 133 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.959 Right, Yeah, and yet, yeah, there's any number of Bible 134 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.560 verses you could throw at them for to not do that. 135 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:50.720 And yet somehow, the fact that they are as successful 136 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:56.399 as they are shilling for this toxic message that they're selling, 137 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:00.160 it's just heinous. It's really heinous, and it's it's just 138 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:03.839 another example of Christian hypocrisy. It's like they're all set 139 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:05.959 to throw a Bible verse at things they don't like, 140 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:10.319 stuff like this. It's explicitly forbidden in their own scriptures. 141 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:13.959 No problem with it, Keros. I know Dave's background. Did 142 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:15.720 you come out of a fundy faith or have you 143 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:17.319 always been smarter than me? 144 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:22.639 No? I was very much a good little Christian. My 145 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:27.240 sort of moment when I lost it was in confirmation class. 146 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:32.320 I was an evangelical Lutheran and we were in Confirmation 147 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:36.559 class and we were learning about transubstantiation and consinstantiation. You know, 148 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:40.000 where the priests is the magic words and then the 149 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:42.879 bread and the crackers turns into the body and blood 150 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.080 of Christ and then we're supposed to eat it. And 151 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:47.320 I freaked out in the middle of confirmation classes and 152 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:48.120 I'm not doing that. 153 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:49.039 That's cannibalism. 154 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:51.600 And that I got told to talk to him behind 155 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:55.600 after the class, and things just fell apart from there. 156 00:08:55.480 --> 00:08:57.919 That was the moment when I started looking at all 157 00:08:57.960 --> 00:08:59.080 of it and thinking, this is. 158 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:02.120 This is nonsense. 159 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:04.960 I hear a lot of stories like that, the curious 160 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:08.039 young Catholic and then the nuns sort of slapping among 161 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:10.320 the knuckles with the rulers, so to speak. You know 162 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:13.080 of scenario on well, you're too much trouble, and then 163 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.279 often they just get booted. You know what, we don't 164 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.559 like questions, have a nice life, We'll see you later. 165 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:20.600 Did that happen to you? 166 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:24.000 No. He kept trying to recruit me and I because 167 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:27.279 it was a very like it's a small town and 168 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:30.639 there was a tight Christian town, and I would have 169 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:33.559 been shunned at high school. I would like, everything would 170 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:35.360 have been a terrible thing if I said, no, I'm 171 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:38.000 not going to do confirmation and this is crap. So 172 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:40.480 I had to go along with it and just not 173 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:41.279 say anything. 174 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:43.559 I'll admit though, that I don't know much about the 175 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:48.879 Lutherans and their teachings about women. Was it subjugation teaching 176 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:49.919 in the Lutheran Church. 177 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:54.159 Not overtly, but it was still the man was the 178 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:57.159 ruler of the family and you know, closer to God. 179 00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:00.960 And we still had wear head coverings in church and 180 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:03.159 stuff like that back then. It's not so much anymore, 181 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:08.519 but it was pretty pretty traditional in those. 182 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:12.440 Ways, written by boys. This Bible, let's stay in the 183 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.279 Old Testament for a second, and I'll just let you 184 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:16.919 take it where you want. But I got to start 185 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:20.399 with Jezebel. So I walk into it a Sunday morning, 186 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.480 Sunday school classroom, say the word Jezebel. I'm guessing I'll 187 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:26.480 bet you twenty bucks. The first thing that pops into 188 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:32.240 the brain to the people in the room slot murderer. Right, Jezbel. 189 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:34.679 I'll start with you, I guess, Dave, you want to 190 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:38.679 tell me about Jezebel, Describe who Jezebel allegedly was and 191 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:39.840 what the story is here. 192 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:42.360 Well, we've got two Jezebel's. We can talk about the 193 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:44.960 one in the Bible that we get the most worst 194 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:47.279 person you can imagine, or we can talk about the 195 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:50.440 real person whose name was not Jezebel. By the way, 196 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:54.919 it's not even her real name, Ihabeil, who was not 197 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:56.960 only a real person, and you can't say that about 198 00:10:56.960 --> 00:10:59.759 a lot of people in the Old Testament, but she 199 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:05.960 her husband's family, their dynasty. They were the first royal 200 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:08.759 family that put Yahweh on the map as a god. 201 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:13.440 Before them, yahwas just one more storm God worshiped by 202 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:19.360 the ancient Judaeans and the ancient Israelites and Samaritans. So 203 00:11:19.559 --> 00:11:22.360 the ironies just start dog by them so fast. Jayhu, 204 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:25.279 who wiped them all out, killed them in the Bible. 205 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.399 This he's God's guy, He's God's hero doing all this. 206 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.279 In real life, he was one of the golden calf 207 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.799 worshipers at Shiloh. That was his So he was a heretic. 208 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:38.200 So the irony that these guys hundreds of years at 209 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:42.240 least three hundred years later writing this story, are making 210 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:46.960 the people who put Yahweh on the map heretics, murderers, 211 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:51.600 bad guys, and their killer held up as God's anointed 212 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.360 when he was in fact a heretic himself. It's it's 213 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:55.919 mind blowing. 214 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.200 Well, when you say, in real life, how do you 215 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.279 verify that? Are there rather historical records that document the 216 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:02.919 character of Jezebel. 217 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:07.879 Absolutely, unlike most like ninety nine of everybody in the 218 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:11.159 Old Testament and of everybody we know and love from 219 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:15.480 Sunday School, Jezebel was a real person. And we have 220 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:20.759 Greek sources for her. We know her family, and we 221 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:24.200 know who she was married into. We have Assyrian records 222 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:27.000 about them and about the the guy who wiped out 223 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:31.039 their whole line. What her real what she was real 224 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:33.600 like as a person, will never know that because they 225 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:36.000 don't tell her story from her point of view. They 226 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:39.600 tell it from their point of view. And to them, 227 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:42.480 the biggest crime was that they were so successful, because 228 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:45.240 in real life they would have loved somebody who stood 229 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:47.200 for yahweh as much as that family did. 230 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.240 And in the first the first five sections, we take 231 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:54.000 five characters of women from the Bible and we have 232 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:55.919 them tell their story in. 233 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:57.200 Their own voice. 234 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.480 So we have Jezebel introduced as this fifteen year old 235 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:04.120 getting sent off to marry a king in a different kingdom, 236 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:09.039 and her whole story from there all told in her voice, 237 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:11.240 and then we go on and do a commentary about 238 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:14.039 all of the parts of that story so we can 239 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:16.440 wear a whole different character. Like all the things, all 240 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:19.600 the facts, still happen, but the how and the why 241 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:21.240 in the way are different. 242 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:23.279 Well, I noticed you did it with Adam and Eve 243 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:26.879 write off the bat, so clever to say, rather than 244 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:29.720 read chapter and verse, we're going to tell the story 245 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:32.840 and we're going to really humanize it and contextualize it 246 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:35.600 and paint a three D verbal picture. And to do 247 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:37.399 that with these characters is fascinating. 248 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:40.279 Yeah, and I think we were really faithful to telling 249 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:42.519 the story as it is in the Bible. We didn't 250 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:46.960 go off on preagey tangents, but we did make the 251 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:48.759 switch of telling it from her point of view and 252 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.480 having the character tell us her story. 253 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:55.320 I love the Genesis account where they're hiding from God 254 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.879 in shame God's wander around the garden like he's not 255 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:02.000 on to care. Wait a minute, I thought God could 256 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:04.159 see everything into it. How do you hide from God? 257 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:06.799 I don't understand that. It just makes no sense to me. 258 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:11.440 Delilah was another sort of Old Testament villain in a 259 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.840 lot of ways. Caros, I'll start with you tell me 260 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:15.360 about Delilah. 261 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:20.879 Oh, well, we have Delilah meeting Samson at at the fair. 262 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:24.000 So well, they're sitt in the marketplace and she's with 263 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.399 her her girlfriends, and she's looking at this hot guy 264 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:27.960 and she's going, yeah, I. 265 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:30.879 Know he's a bad dude. I think I can wrap 266 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:31.519 am out. 267 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:33.240 She likes the bad boys. 268 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:35.399 He likes the bad boys. 269 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.759 So she starts walking across towards him, and he sees 270 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:41.559 her coming and he's looking at her like, oh, yeah, honey, 271 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:46.759 I think so. And so it's just all effects of 272 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:48.519 the you know, like that when they kill him and 273 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:50.039 all the things they do to him and everything, but 274 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:54.559 it's all told from her perspective. And so she's having 275 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.879 fun with this story and all those times where where 276 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:02.200 they tell her to find out how to tie them 277 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:04.879 up with things that he can't break out of, and 278 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:07.919 and we have like sex gigs like where they're times 279 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:09.559 and stuff like it's different. 280 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:15.519 It's old Testament sex tape. These are words I never 281 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:19.159 would have put in the same sentence myself. Hey, if 282 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:21.080 you want to jump on here, I was going to say, 283 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:23.000 do you want to jump on Delilah? Let me rephrase it. 284 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:26.399 Would you like to talk about Delilah from your perspective? 285 00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:29.039 We don't just tell the story. I mean we do 286 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:31.200 tell the story, and that's super fun, but then we 287 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:34.080 give commentary after it. It's like, yeahs are always saying, oh, 288 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:36.279 you're taking out of context. Oh well, let's give the 289 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:38.840 context then, and when you do, you find that the 290 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:41.759 story is even worse than we already think. I mean, 291 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:45.200 we all sort of know that the Bible's misogynistic, we 292 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:47.879 all sort of know that the Bible puts women down. 293 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:50.000 But when you actually do a little bit of a 294 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:53.440 deeper dive into just how these stories were written, why 295 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:57.600 they're written, and what's happening, you know, in the context 296 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:01.240 of these stories, it's even worse. It's even worse. And 297 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:03.399 that's true whether you're talking about Old Testament or are 298 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:04.639 they're talking about the New Testament. 299 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.360 More on some of the lesser known women in the 300 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:09.559 Old Testament, and then we got to get into the 301 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:12.000 New Testament with Jesus and Paul and some of the 302 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:16.600 tragic attitudes and writings about women. I will continue with 303 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:28.480 my special guest next next up on the conference Roster Nashville, Tennessee. 304 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:32.000 It is Nanocon. What a lineup for that. Matt de 305 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:36.360 la Hunty promised Backland Hemmet, Metta, Glenda Jordan, Forrest Valkei, 306 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:40.799 and so many others. Also in August, the World Humanist 307 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.039 Congress Baja con those are both in Canada. The Unholy 308 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:48.440 Trinity Reunion that's in Fort Worth, Texas the last Saturday 309 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:54.039 in August. The FFRF National Convention in Milwaukee October sixteenth 310 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:58.000 through the eighteenth, and then Rocket City Reason Huntsville, Alabama, 311 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:02.480 October twenty third through the twenty fifth. Details links everything 312 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:08.680 you need the Thinkingatheist dot com slash events. Authors of 313 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:13.799 the book clearly written by boys Keris Berkowski and Dave Fitzgerald. 314 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:16.960 You got a couple of illustrators. You want to introduce 315 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:18.200 your illustrators for me? 316 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.960 Yeah. One of them is David Hayward, who's a cartoonist 317 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:24.759 and a lot of the people that are on this, 318 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.079 they're watching you right now. I might actually know him 319 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:29.920 because he's called the Naked Pastor. He used to be 320 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.200 a minister and now he does cartoons and they're they're 321 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.359 sort of religious themed and with things that we take 322 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.680 two pages to describe, he can put in one cartoon 323 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:40.039 and there it is, right in your face. 324 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.559 And he was so on board right from the get go, 325 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:44.559 sin As we told him aout the project. He was, Yeah, 326 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:47.200 the board and his cartoon just nail it. I mean 327 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:50.319 so many stuff was just absolutely perfect. 328 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:55.200 Well, Hayward's interesting to me, right because he's a Christian, right. 329 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:58.720 It was, he's a deconstructing Christian. If not you fully 330 00:17:58.839 --> 00:17:59.559 because I was going. 331 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:04.079 To say, cartoons go hard at the Bible, the foundational 332 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:08.839 text of Christianity, and he's given shit to the Bible 333 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:10.720 all the time, and I thought, this is this is 334 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:11.480 a weird believer. 335 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:12.400 Weird. 336 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:12.640 Yeah. 337 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:17.240 Yeah, he's very pro LGBT and his Jesus is very 338 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:20.039 pro LGBT, and that's that's kind of cool to see 339 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:20.839 that happen. 340 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.279 I mean I like him, I really do admire and admirers. 341 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:26.519 Okay good yeah, yeah yeah. As soon as we told 342 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:28.200 him about it, he was right on board. So we've 343 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:30.319 got sixty five of his cartoons in the book. 344 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:34.160 And you're second illustrator, Kathleen or kat Hardy. 345 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:38.119 The second illustrator is a female, and she has drawn 346 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:42.160 portraits of the seven I guess women that we really 347 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:43.920 talk about the five at the beginning that we tell 348 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:47.400 their story and then Mary both Mary's very magnalate and 349 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:50.640 married mother of Jesus, so we would give her a topic, 350 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:53.920 like we asked her to do a Mary mother Mary, 351 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:57.480 and so she sent us one usual you know Mary 352 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:01.160 with the downcast eyes or you know, like the usual sweet, 353 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:03.759 modest Mary. And we said no, no, no, no, no, no no. 354 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:07.880 We told her what else to do. So she did this, 355 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:10.119 and yeah, that's much better. 356 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:11.440 She's got to be looking up. 357 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:18.880 A So how many Mary's are there in the New ten? 358 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.200 There's Magdalene, and then there's the other Mary and the Mary. 359 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:25.240 Matter of mean, how many Marys am I talking about? Here? 360 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:29.400 We focus on two of them, Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene, 361 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.599 but even though there are multiple versions of those two 362 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:37.240 women as well. And it's it's ironic because in a 363 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:39.960 way we have many Mary's, in another way, we have 364 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:43.000 almost no Mary of any of them. If we didn't 365 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:45.519 have the Book of John, we wouldn't know anything about 366 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:47.880 Mary Magdalen really. If we didn't have the Book of Luke, 367 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:52.279 we wouldn't know anything really about the Virgin Mary. It's 368 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:55.160 it's so amazing that we've got these tiny little slivers 369 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.759 in the Bible, and yet it's blown up since to become, 370 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:03.640 you know, a whole cot industry of Mary Magdalene and uh, 371 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:05.880 the Da Vinci code, all that stuff, you know it. 372 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.480 It was like the legend, the medieval legends of Mary 373 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:11.000 Magdalene just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger, bigger. 374 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:14.000 And we talk about the fact that the real Mary Mage, 375 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:17.519 if it was a real, real anything in there. Mary 376 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:21.240 Magdalen was a disciple, and she was a She gave 377 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.519 them money, she helped them, she did all this kind 378 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.519 of stuff. And then this one pope gets confused and 379 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:31.119 configures he's he conflates her with the woman the sinner, 380 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:35.519 you know whatever, and and from then on she becomes, uh, 381 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:38.680 this despicable Harlotte who's. 382 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:44.640 Trying to be forgiven and just totally messes her up. 383 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:46.240 And so we talk a lot about that. 384 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:49.759 So back to the Old Testament. Everybody knows there's a 385 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:53.440 book of Ruth. Nobody knows anything about Ruth like Hell 386 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:53.920 is Ruth. 387 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:57.160 Oh we have great But with that, she tells her 388 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:01.559 own story too, and so okay, she's doing the with 389 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:04.640 it thou goist and she's so sweet and innocent and everything. 390 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.440 And we talk in the commentary, we talk about, well, 391 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.119 what's really going on in the country at that time 392 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:13.319 and how would she have been treated after marrying somebody 393 00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:17.920 from outside of her land and now he's dead and 394 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:19.880 she doesn't have a man to look after her. 395 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:24.160 So Mary Naomi wants to go away, so she wants 396 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:26.240 to go with her because what the heck guess is 397 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:26.839 she gonna do? 398 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:31.559 And then we get her back in Judea and she 399 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:34.480 meets Boaz in the grain field, right, and she goes 400 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:38.160 back and tells Naomi, and Naoi gives her this sole planable, 401 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:40.319