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Speaker 1: We're Tame Lorenzo, and this is the Better Kitten Movie Club.

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Hello Kittens, Welcome back to another edition of the bi

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k MC, a supplemental edition of the Pop Style, Opinion

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Pest podcast where we take a look at one film

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per week and dissect it and come up with talking

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points and just make observations. It's not a review, it's

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it's meant to be an opening to a discussion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. What I love about it, I don't think I've

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mentioned this to you, is that it forces it towards

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things that probably I wouldn't watch. Well, that's nice, And

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it's nice because I discover a lot of great things,

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and you know, I hate other things. But it's nice

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because you get exposed to stuff that probably I wouldn't

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pick immediately.

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Speaker 1: This makes a good segue because this week's film is

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Blue Moon. Twenty twenty five's Blue Moon, from director Richard

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link Later, starring Ethan Hawk and Andrew Scott and Margaret

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Qualley and Bobby kind of Ollie and I, was critically

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acclaimed film last year. It was nominated for Best Screenplay

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and Ethan Hawk was nominated OSCAR nominated for Best Actor.

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Critics loved it, of course, and I went into it

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thinking I was also going to love it. I was

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really really looking forward to this one, and I gotta

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say I didn't like it at all. I really wrestled

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with this. I thought, why, you know, and I'm going

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to unpack a couple of reasons why I think I didn't.

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It didn't appeal to me. But I'm gonna tost to you,

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and I want your initial thoughts go ahead.

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Speaker 2: My initial thoughts had no idea what I was expected,

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what I was going to watch. Honestly, I knew a

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little bit about him, not much the main character, but

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and I had no idea that was going to be

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the setup. I mean, at some point, I'm like, all right,

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are we leaving this bar or what? Because it just

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got annoying. I was like, all right, this is okay.

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And then once you realize that, okay, we're not leaving

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this bar, So let me just pay attention to what

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he's saying, you know what I mean, because that's much

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the core of this whole thing is what he say.

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And once you understand that, I mean, I guess you

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just watched the movie for what it is. I like,

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certain parts got very annoyed and board with other parts

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and impatient, sometimes very impatient, because every now and then

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it got to you know, a point that was like,

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you know when you listen to someone telling a whole

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long story that you don't want to listen to it

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at all, and you're like, oh my god, just get

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to the end of it. I can't take this anymore.

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It felt like that every now and then.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that was link Later's intention. Yes, yes,

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was that he wanted to get across that Lorenz Heart

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was a lot. He was just a lot, a lot.

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Speaker 2: Apparently I was.

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Speaker 1: And I think I'm sorry, and I think that's why

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he just lets some of those those monologues just go on.

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And I agree with you, for I almost all of

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them go on way too long.

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Speaker 2: I read some people, friends of people who you know,

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were part of his life saying that he was very insecure,

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and that's what's that's how he acted most of the time.

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It was like you would talk non stop and he

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would make jokes. I mean, that was his way of

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dealing with his own insecurity and the way he felt

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about himself. So and he comes across because he can't

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stop talking.

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Speaker 1: And it, in fact, it felt a little bit uh

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one of the reasons I struggled with this, and I

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struggled with my reaction to Well, there there were a

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lot of reasons why I struggled with my reaction to it,

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but I'll start with this. I do not enjoy depictions

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of gay men that render us.

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Speaker 2: Pathetic, especially of a certain age.

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Speaker 1: I agree. I agree middle aged pathetic. Game In is

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a trope that I never want to see on screen again.

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And I get it. I looked, I wasn't. I mean,

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I know who Loren's heart was, I know what his

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work was, and I knew the bare bones of his life,

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but I did not know much. So I went and

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I looked. After the movie, I went and looked, you know,

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read some articles on him and everything. It's a very

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good article in the Atlantic from like twelve years ago.

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When I think the biography that this film is based on.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah so, and everything that the film depicts

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is true as far as I can tell, true to

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his personality, true to his life.

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Speaker 1: He he was a closeted man, a man who most

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of his contemporaries and friends believed to have been a

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closeted gayment. He's also been referred to as a voyeur,

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and I think that kind of explains that whole scene

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where she's telling him about her sex life and everything,

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which I hated that scene so much. He was an alcoholic,

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he spends time in sanitariums. It was serious. I mean,

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he was killing himself and all of that is on screen.

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And I would not argue that you shouldn't depict those things,

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but it's like how you depict those things and what

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you want to focus on in your biographical film. I

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think that's worth unpacking. Okay, so here's what I want

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to say. You can show all of this stuff. Obviously,

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it would actually be inaccurate of you to not show

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all of this stuff, to show how overwhelming his personality is,

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how he was weird about sex and weird about women,

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and you know, all of that, the alcoholism and everything,

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the attention seeking. Apparently all of that is very very true.

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But it wasn't until this morning, because we watched it

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last night, that I really I thought of two other films,

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one of which at the time we actually liked, which

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was Renees Elwegger's Judy, and then the Ana Deormist Maryland

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film Blonde. And in both of those instances, you can

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look at those films and say, well, yeah, technically, what

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is being depicted on screen here it's been attested to.

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Some of the Maryland stuff got a little fanciful, but

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the Judy stuff was, well, it's pretty much what it

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was like. But and this was our problem with Blonde,

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was it's about what you have decided to focus on

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in telling your story. So in Judy they focused on like,

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literally it was the same kind of movie. It was

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like literally her at the end of her life, absolutely

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a mess, dying and withering away. We actually enjoyed that

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film at the time, and I think that's partially because

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we were so shocked that Zelwicker could pull it off.

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But in the year's sense, I watched it a couple

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of times and I'm like, this is actually a brutal film. Similarly,

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with Blonde, you can say that most of what was

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depicted on there was probably true to Marilyn's life in

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some way, But the fact that you chose to make

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an entire film about how fucked up and how sexually

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abused she was, it's not an untrue portrayal, but I

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question why that'sh So that's where I am with this,

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where it's like all right, it's Loren's heart, and I

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think all of this is accurate. But I found it

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a deeply unpleasant film to watch. I thought it was

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mean spirited in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 2: I think, I think, yeah, I think I do. I

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see a lot of biopics now doing that kind of stuff.

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They picked one thing about the person and they focus

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on it. Which if it's someone famous that you know

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a lot about, then it's fine in a way. In

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a way, and if you accept it. Most people like

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the whole story from beginning to end, you know, for

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a biopic, but you know it's not always the case.

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But it's fine. You're allowed to do whatever you want

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as a director, as a creator. In this case, not

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a lot of people know about this guy at all, right,

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And that was my issue, And so I was like,

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all right. The whole time, I was like, I appreciate

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his sense of humor.

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Speaker 1: Here was some very witty lines.

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Speaker 2: He's clearly brilliant.

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Speaker 1: Brilliant does come across trouble.

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Speaker 2: I get all that. But I get all that, and

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I don't mind watching someone like that, because someone like

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that it's interesting as a character. But the whole time

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I was like, what is your point here, what's the

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point of your movie? Why?

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Speaker 1: What is this?

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Speaker 2: What story are you telling me here? Because I felt like,

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all right, I don't really see the purpose of this.

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We don't know much about this guy. I you know,

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slowly you find out who he is, and you know

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the whole thing with Richard Roger, and there's a lot

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of stuff missing that I had to go on and

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look and all like, oh, now that I.

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Speaker 1: Think it does presuppose that you know a lot of

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this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Most people don't.

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Speaker 1: It's a well theater buffs do well. And I do

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think this was a film made for theater.

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Speaker 2: Buffs, right, But that's not enough for an audience well, and.

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Speaker 1: That is part of the reason why I think I

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didn't react well to it. I should note here that

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director Richard link Later also directed Nouvelle Vague, which was

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a BKMC choice in our first month. I think it

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was like in April. Both of those movies came out

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in the same year, and if you take a step back, stylistically,

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they're very different, but they are doing the exact same thing.

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Nouvelle Vague was a film that was a loving homage

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to the people who created the New wave film movement

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in France as such, it was shot like a new

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wave film. Everybody talked like they were in a new

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wave film. Everybody looked like they were. He essentially made

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a new wave film about the new wave similarly, and

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that you know, it was all famous in it. You know,

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there were all these famous filmmakers and writers and critics

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that were popping up in the story. Similarly, in some ways,

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this is a love letter to the New York theater crowd.

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It's a love letter to the musical theater in some ways.

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And because of that, it stays like a play. It

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looks like a play, it reads like a prep play.

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And everybody's acting style is actually much more theat like

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Bobby kind of Alli, much more theatrical in this than

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he is in other roles, because he's essentially playing to

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the backstage of a theater. And I I'm not a

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theater person, not really. I'm a film person. One hundred

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percent of film person went to film school, loved movies,

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and nouvelle vogs just checked off a bunch of boxes.

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For me. I just loved every minute of it because

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I was getting the references and that sort of thing.

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Making a movie exactly. I'm on the outside of this.

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I mean, I'm not ignorant of the American theater, but

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it's I'm not a buff. I got the references. I mean,

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as soon as that kids showed up and you heard me,

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I said, oh no, and I before you were like

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what and I was like, that kid's gonna be Stephen Sondheim.

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I just know it.

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Speaker 2: And the credits. I mean, somebody said that they read

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the credits and at the end of the movie and

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they realized it.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even need to read the credits because actually

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the lines that they gave him were things that he

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had actually said.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I see.

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Speaker 1: About Lorenz's hearts come, but he said it years later

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when he was an adult. Right, So this film is

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a loving homage and it's very stagy, and it's meant

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to sort of be the thing that it's talking about.

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In other words, it's a play. It's a movie that

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looks like a play about people in the theater.

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Speaker 2: Everybody mentioned that it feels like a play. In fact,

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I asked you, I was like, was this a play before?

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Speaker 1: And I said it, I kind of wish it had

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been and stayed a play, because it probably would have

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worked better as a play than I feel it works

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as a movie.

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Speaker 2: I think it's an interesting look at how theater works

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and how people work in theater, you know, the whole

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thing about you know how, and the whole thing about

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Hollywood and the entertainment industry in general, that you are.

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I mean, this guy was extremely famous, He made a

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ton of money. He was considered a genius in his time, right,

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and then he dropped and then you know, started drinking

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and having troubles and and all of a sudden he's

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getting you know, Richard Rogers. He's replacing him with somebody else.

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So and they go on forever, and this guy, you know,

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ends up dead. So uh, it's a sad life. It's

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an interesting take on how how how it is with

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theater and cinema and all that. You know, you you

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are famous, you are at the star and then you're

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not anymore, and how that affects your life and all that,

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and and being Jewish, being gay, you know all that

241
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at the time very.

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Speaker 1: And I I'll get to that in a bit, I think, yeah,

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all right, So comparing this to Nuvelle Vague, the interesting

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thing about nu Valvage and I actually I think I

245
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voiced this at the time was that Link later seemed

246
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unable or unwilling to do or say anything too critical

247
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the people he was talking about. So it was extremely loving.

248
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And I was struck by this film because it reveled

249
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in all the worst parts of this man's life and personality,

250
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and in fact, it barely gave us a glimpse of

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anything good in his life. The opening shot of the

252
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film is him dying in an alleyway. That is a

253
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brutal way to open the biopic of an artist that

254
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you are supposedly, I don't know, elevating in some way.

255
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It's just such a brutally harsh way to open that film.

256
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And yes, that is how he died. I get it,

257
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and I get it as a filmmaking choice because it

258
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is hanging over the entire film. You've already watched him

259
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die in a gutter, so you're it just becomes all

260
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about his his degradation in it, and that that again

261
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,639
is my problem with this film. Again, you're allowed to

262
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do that. You are absolutely allowed to tell dark stories

263
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about artists who are allowed to talk. And when you

264
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take a step when I take a step back, I

265
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realized that, Okay, Richard Roger. I mean Lorenz Heart showing

266
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up at Sardi's on the opening night of Oklahoma. That's

267
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a story. I understand why this is where you have

268
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decided to focus it. I just and I did read

269
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up on it, and apparently he was there, and he

270
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,559
was there with his mother and he said something very

271
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nice and left, And that is the thing. I looked

272
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all of this up after I left, after I watched

273
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the film, and the film is completely fictionalized down to

274
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that girl does not exist. No, actually she no, they

275
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fucking lied about it.

276
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Speaker 2: Well, it isn't she.

277
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Speaker 1: They say at the end that this is based on

278
00:15:02,519 --> 00:15:05,759
letters between him and Lorenz Heart and Elizabeth Wyland. The

279
00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:08,159
only person who has ever seen these letters is the screenwriter,

280
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who claims to have bought them in it at an auction.

281
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No mention of her in any of Lorenz's Heart's other

282
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,759
writings stopped buy nothing. There is apparently a woman that

283
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,440
he exchanged one or two letters with. She was a

284
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,360
fan or something, and that was it. They don't even

285
00:15:25,399 --> 00:15:28,840
know that they ever met in person. And that fucking

286
00:15:28,879 --> 00:15:35,440
offends me because you created this creepy, bizarre obsession. Why

287
00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:38,200
why did you create this that didn't exist. I mean,

288
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and I did. I read up on his relationships with women,

289
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and they were sort of like that where he became

290
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,960
very obsessed with some woman, right, but they didn't love

291
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,000
him in that way. And maybe I'll unpack a little

292
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bit of this after the break, because some of the

293
00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:56,559
bad reactions I was having to this was I was like,

294
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is this because I see something of myself in this story?

295
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And in fact, on that note, why don't we take

296
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a quick break and then we'll come back. Right, we're back,

297
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So picking up on the I'm sorry I've acted like

298
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I'm surprised.

299
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Speaker 2: Give you the MinC.

300
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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're back, And I just want to pick up

301
00:16:14,919 --> 00:16:18,320
on my last point because I did sit there thinking

302
00:16:19,039 --> 00:16:22,120
and does this bother me so much? Because I'm recognizing

303
00:16:22,159 --> 00:16:26,240
some part of my closeted self in this story, and

304
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:32,360
certainly when I was closet I'm giving away too much

305
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,360
of myself here, but when I was closeted, I was

306
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,320
very much and I think this is true of a

307
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,799
lot of queer men and possibly of queer women as well,

308
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,639
But I don't want to speak to their experiences when

309
00:16:43,639 --> 00:16:46,360
you're in the closet or when you're trying to like

310
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,320
distract people from who you really are deep down. You

311
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:53,200
put on a performance. And this was very much me

312
00:16:53,399 --> 00:16:57,960
socially in my teens and twenties, which I was just joking,

313
00:16:58,039 --> 00:16:59,879
putting on and non stop talking.

314
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Speaker 2: That's what he did.

315
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Speaker 1: So I do recognize that part of myself in him,

316
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:10,200
and in my teens and early twenties at least, I did,

317
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,920
like a lot of closeted gay men, developed sort of

318
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,119
obsessions with women that I thought were going to save

319
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,720
me from my gayness. None of it ever went anywhere,

320
00:17:17,759 --> 00:17:19,599
and certainly not to the extent of that weird thing

321
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:22,359
that we saw on screen. But you know, you get

322
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,000
these little weird gay boy crushes on girls that you

323
00:17:25,039 --> 00:17:28,559
think are going to save you, high school girls, college girls. Again,

324
00:17:29,319 --> 00:17:36,480
I get it. I can even identify with, for instance,

325
00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:40,960
watching someone surpass you, you know, and I think everybody

326
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,519
can see, can you know understand that feeling? So there

327
00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:48,359
were parts of me in him and in his performance

328
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,480
that I felt like I needed to unpack in order

329
00:17:50,559 --> 00:17:53,200
to deal with why I hated it so much. And

330
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,400
then I realized, well, wait a minute, I was never

331
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,839
a middle aged man doing these things. I was like

332
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,920
a very very young man. So no, this doesn't feel

333
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,160
like me at all. It feels a little bit like

334
00:18:04,519 --> 00:18:06,119
some of the stuff I went through when I was

335
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,880
in the closet. But my negative reaction is it doesn't

336
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,079
come down to, oh, I saw parts of myself in

337
00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,680
the story and I was uncomfortable with it. Although I

338
00:18:15,759 --> 00:18:17,920
did work on unpacking that to make sure that was

339
00:18:18,039 --> 00:18:21,599
not the case. I really dislike how they traded him

340
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:28,839
in this story. All I could think was regardless, like, yes,

341
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,000
all of this is true, and on some level, if

342
00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:34,680
you're doing a picture about him, you do need to

343
00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:38,160
show these parts of him, otherwise you're not doing a

344
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,599
true story. But I'm reiterating my points now and I'll

345
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,720
drop this. But my problem with this was that's all

346
00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:48,359
they showed. All they showed was how creepy he was

347
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,240
around like that young piano player. That I really got

348
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,079
mad at that scene in the bathroom. I'm like, oh, Okay,

349
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,200
we have a middle aged, creepy gay man in a

350
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,480
bathroom with a cute young guy. You didn't have to

351
00:18:58,519 --> 00:19:00,920
have this scene, but the implication of that scene are

352
00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:07,119
very fucking clear. Anyway, I will drop that. I will say,

353
00:19:08,079 --> 00:19:11,039
let's let's introduce a new topic. Andrew Scott won an award.

354
00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:12,559
I can't remember the acting award. I think it was

355
00:19:12,559 --> 00:19:14,960
a British Acting Award for his part, and he was

356
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,119
the best part in the movie.

357
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,519
Speaker 2: He's very good. And the only thing that I don't

358
00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:23,039
like is that they again because they need to explain things.

359
00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:26,279
They need to tell the audience what happened. Uh, they

360
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,279
they switch on a dime, their their their conversation.

361
00:19:30,559 --> 00:19:32,640
Speaker 1: Well that's the theatrical part of it, where it's like,

362
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,759
none of these conversations are natural. The people don't talk

363
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:36,119
like that.

364
00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:38,720
Speaker 2: Like they go from like yes, remember when we did that?

365
00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:41,119
To oh my god, you were drinking all the time, and.

366
00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:44,599
Speaker 1: Then affectionate like ten seconds I was going to play right.

367
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,960
Speaker 2: The switch was so sharp that I was like, whoa

368
00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:50,200
that that doesn't make sense in a conversation.

369
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,319
Speaker 1: That's you know, I'm glad you brought that up. I

370
00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:55,079
actually forgot about that part of it again. And at

371
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,720
the act if they're up on a stage, right, those

372
00:19:57,759 --> 00:20:02,319
sorts of character turns. You know, conversations in plays will

373
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,960
ramble and go all over the place and and people

374
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,519
will get angry and cry and lay it. But when

375
00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:12,000
you do that on screen in these short lived, you know, vignettes,

376
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,000
it looks weird. It's like no one's having a normal

377
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,279
emotional reactions some of the stuff that he said. People

378
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,519
are just kind of like gently smiling, and I'm like, no,

379
00:20:20,599 --> 00:20:22,799
he just said something really fucked up, Like why are

380
00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:23,200
you all?

381
00:20:23,559 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 2: I understand why. They're like, like, he's thinking, do you

382
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,039
want to do that that? You know? Do you want

383
00:20:28,039 --> 00:20:31,160
to do that? You know Connecticut Yankee again? And then

384
00:20:31,279 --> 00:20:33,480
we had more songs and he's like, sure, well let's

385
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,920
do and it's an interesting conversation, kind of mala conversation.

386
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:38,319
All of a sudden, it's like, yeah, but you're not

387
00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:40,400
gonna drink, You're not gonna show up, and I'm gonna

388
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:41,039
have to call you a mother.

389
00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:43,519
Speaker 1: The switch is so because they want to pack in

390
00:20:43,759 --> 00:20:44,720
every bit.

391
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,319
Speaker 2: Of that, because they want to tell you what happened. Yeah,

392
00:20:47,519 --> 00:20:50,400
and uh it feels like yeah, it doesn't feel sometimes.

393
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,519
Speaker 1: It feels like a Wikipedia entry. It doesn't feel But

394
00:20:53,559 --> 00:20:56,519
my point of bringing up Andrew Scott is that I

395
00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:00,240
think that was the movie, a movie with those two

396
00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:04,559
men that night, interacting with each and I think you

397
00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:06,480
could have had a ninety minute movie out of that

398
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,880
it's and that's basically the second act. Second act is

399
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,240
Richard Rodgers' first act is Lorenz Heart alone at the bar,

400
00:21:13,559 --> 00:21:16,519
just rambling, and then the third act is him and

401
00:21:16,559 --> 00:21:24,240
Margaret Quality in the cloakroom. And the first act starts off.

402
00:21:24,279 --> 00:21:26,559
I mean, he is a force of nature, Ethan Hawk.

403
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,440
It is a performance of the agent. He's no denying that.

404
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 2: That's a massive piece of character study.

405
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 1: I agree, and he is fully committed and bringing everything

406
00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:39,440
he has to it. I will not deny that that

407
00:21:39,519 --> 00:21:42,599
is a hell of a performance. However, as we noted,

408
00:21:43,559 --> 00:21:47,440
everything goes on too long. Yes, the interactions don't seem

409
00:21:47,559 --> 00:21:51,759
very natural, and it's just intensely stagy to a point

410
00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:56,000
where I just found it irritating. Then Rogers shows up

411
00:21:56,519 --> 00:21:59,440
and suddenly the energy is completely different, and the two

412
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,240
actors bouncing off each other made for a much more

413
00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:08,440
interesting movie. Right then that scenario ends and we're in

414
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,240
the cloakroom with Margaret Quality, and I got so pissed

415
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,160
from this point on because I was like, all right,

416
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:20,000
this is awful. It was sort of an escalating arc

417
00:22:20,079 --> 00:22:22,359
where it was a rocky beginning and then the second

418
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,680
act was really really great, and then you crash, and

419
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,200
I'm like, why am I and that scene again? A

420
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,119
lot of these acts seem to go on a little

421
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,519
bit too long. Why did that scene go on so long?

422
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,839
What annoyed me is And I know you want to

423
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,240
say margaret quality is you don't think she's a good actress.

424
00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:43,319
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't. I'm tired of seeing I know or

425
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,160
people are not good because they're not good. I just yeah,

426
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,519
she's okay, and she's okay, and I don't think she

427
00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:52,480
was right for the port. Well.

428
00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: Here I'm sitting there. It's this interminable monologue she gives

429
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,759
about losing her virginity, and all I could think was,

430
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,680
no twenty year old girl in nineteen forty three talks

431
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,039
like this. She sounds like she was born in nineteen

432
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:10,720
ninety nine. She sounded really sexually, like she understood sex really,

433
00:23:10,759 --> 00:23:13,920
really well. She was very sort of cynical about being ghosted.

434
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,359
And I'm like, I'm not suggesting that women back then

435
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,519
were complete idiots about sex or anything, but it's not

436
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,759
our all affect all of the words out of her mouth.

437
00:23:23,759 --> 00:23:26,000
I'm like, I do not buy that this girl was

438
00:23:26,039 --> 00:23:32,039
born in nineteen twenty three. Beautiful dress, Actually, what I

439
00:23:32,039 --> 00:23:33,720
loved about that dress was that I think it looked

440
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,839
a little cheap on her, yea, yeah, And I think

441
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,400
that that was a choice. You know, it wasn't perfectly fitted.

442
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,160
She looked gorgeous in it. You could understand why she

443
00:23:42,319 --> 00:23:45,119
is gorgeou Yeah, she looked gorgeous in it. But I

444
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,279
actually did like that her costume was a little cheap.

445
00:23:47,319 --> 00:23:52,519
I think I love that. Yeah, that's thoughtful costume design. So, uh,

446
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:55,440
all right, what else? I love Bobby kind of Ollie.

447
00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:58,839
He was good, he was Yeah, just I think he's

448
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,079
so much fun to watch. Actually, he just that's the

449
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:01,680
kind of role.

450
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he was good and just gave enough.

451
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: I don't think it asked much of him.

452
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, like just enough to make you like him and

453
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,559
laugh with him. And yeah, I mean, I the whole

454
00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:14,200
thing with Oklahoma was hysterical.

455
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: I mean his comments about Oklahoma. Theres been more of that, right,

456
00:24:19,759 --> 00:24:22,319
like him being a bitch to Richard Rogers about the

457
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,720
exclamation point on the end, Like that was fun And

458
00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:27,640
it still got your point across that this was a

459
00:24:27,759 --> 00:24:29,160
very bitter, self loathing man.

460
00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:31,519
Speaker 2: And I don't think it was also very clear that

461
00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:34,359
he was invited to work on that project, and he

462
00:24:34,519 --> 00:24:35,559
decided not to decide.

463
00:24:35,759 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: Don't I think the film sort of makes it sound

464
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,440
like he was fired from it, And in fact, my

465
00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:42,759
understanding is he said, I just don't want to do that.

466
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 2: He just didn't believe it could be a play, a

467
00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:48,680
music or whatever, and so he dropped it. And then

468
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,640
he just, you know, Richard decided to go with Oscar. Yeah,

469
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,200
so that's the whole thing. But they started together actually,

470
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,119
and then you know.

471
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah they started in like nineteen ninety or something

472
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:00,960
like that.

473
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 2: So they forget, they don't mention that, and if you

474
00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:06,200
don't know much about him, it's like, all right, what happened?

475
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,279
What really happened here?

476
00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah?

477
00:25:08,759 --> 00:25:11,319
Speaker 2: Uh, it felt like they just walked in the past

478
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,559
a long time ago. And yeah, anyway, I hated.

479
00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:20,599
Speaker 1: I mean, I get it. It's Sardi's, so various literary

480
00:25:20,599 --> 00:25:22,960
figures and New York figures are going to pass through.

481
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,000
But they had that thing with eb White, the author,

482
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,720
and that's fine, Like he shows up. I thought the

483
00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:33,519
performance was fine. They gave him the performance was really good. Actually, yeah,

484
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,279
I had to go look the actor up because I

485
00:25:35,319 --> 00:25:37,000
was like, the hell is that actor? And he's the

486
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:43,240
he plays Kiera Knightley's brother in Atonement. Oh wow, the

487
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,240
guy playing the piano on the raft and everything. Yeah,

488
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,640
it's the same actor. He's aged obviously, I thought he's

489
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,000
aged more than Kiera Knightley, as.

490
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,599
Speaker 2: I thought, well, anyway.

491
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: Anyway, my point there is I was like, okay, ab White,

492
00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:01,720
and then then I don't even if you're gonna get

493
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,960
the reference. Eb Wright White wrote Stuart Little, the book

494
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,039
about the little boy who was a mouse. Yes, and

495
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,200
what's his name? Lorenz Heart starts talking about the little

496
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,839
mouse in his apartment and he's named him Stuart, and

497
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,839
is it Stuart with a W? And and then suddenly

498
00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:19,720
E B. White's taking out a notebook and I'm like,

499
00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:20,759
I know I need to do this.

500
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 2: I know, I know.

501
00:26:22,279 --> 00:26:24,799
Speaker 1: Is there any evidence that Lorenz Heart? Even though E B.

502
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,960
White like, why are we doing? And then the same

503
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,720
thing with Stephen Sondheim, It's like, all right, you just

504
00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:32,640
need to pack all of these figures into it and

505
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,559
have them say or do things, because it's like this

506
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,960
weird thing. Yet where it's like this like those animatronic

507
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,440
presidents and at Disney World, where everybody just says, I'm

508
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,720
going to say Stephen Sonheim thing. I'm gonna say, an

509
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,759
eb white thing. You know, it's I just didn't. I'm

510
00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:51,079
shocked that the critics love this film as much as

511
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:51,640
they did.

512
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:53,039
Speaker 2: Well critics like to.

513
00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:55,279
Speaker 1: I'm also shocked that no one ever made an issue

514
00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:57,799
with the fact that I mean, granted, I don't have

515
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,359
a problem with straight men playing gay, but like I

516
00:27:01,559 --> 00:27:05,599
noted earlier, Ethan Hawk is a six foot tall you know,

517
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,839
non Jewish straight man playing a five foot tall and

518
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,240
like they put him in, I found the makeup distracting.

519
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,839
You could see his real hairline under the comb over.

520
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,519
They didn't shave him well enough, so I found that

521
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,640
really distracting. The attempts to make him look short were

522
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,519
borderline insulting, Like they made him look crippled. They made

523
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,799
like he couldn't reach the top of the bar and everything.

524
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,720
It was like this, this is going way too far,

525
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,039
and some of these shots look goofy as hell, like

526
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,799
Lord of the Rings did this better almost thirty years ago,

527
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,519
and I could think, was, you know, you could have

528
00:27:43,599 --> 00:27:45,880
found a short Jewish guy to play this part. But

529
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,079
link later and Hawk have made like seven films together,

530
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,400
And in fact, I was reading up on this link

531
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,319
Later they've been working on this film for like fifteen years,

532
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,599
and link Later said, you're too young to play the part.

533
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,759
They wouldn't wait for you to like what which is

534
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,960
funny because Ethan Hawk is about ten years older than

535
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,799
Loren's heart was when he died. I just yeah, I

536
00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:10,920
wanted to like this film because and I really was

537
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,119
taken aback because the critics love it. It's like ninety

538
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,880
eight percent on Rotten Tomatoes or whatever. But no, I

539
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,519
I there's not much about this film that I can

540
00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:26,000
point to and say, well, that part was good. One

541
00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:29,960
or two performances and that's it. Like, I don't like

542
00:28:31,279 --> 00:28:33,920
much and even like I can talk about Ethan Hawk's

543
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,920
performance like, oh my god, he's really committed. But at

544
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:43,200
the same token, it's gimmicky, it's twitchy, and it's relentless.

545
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,640
I did read a comment online saying that watching this

546
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,640
film was like a root canal, and I was like,

547
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,799
that's exactly what it felt like. It just was. And

548
00:28:50,839 --> 00:28:53,640
it's not a long film. It's like an hour and

549
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,240
forty minutes long. It felt in termina well.

550
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: Uh, personally, and you know that because you get annoyed

551
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,119
with me. I am very patient to listen to people.

552
00:29:01,839 --> 00:29:04,039
You know, I'm very impatient when it comes to listening

553
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:07,160
to people. And so when someone talks like that, non

554
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,160
stop telling a story, I mean, I'm the same. I

555
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,279
get very impatient. I just could you want to talk?

556
00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:16,319
Could you get to your point? And so? And I

557
00:29:16,359 --> 00:29:18,759
think that has to do a lot with a format,

558
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:21,880
which is a movie. If I was sitting in a

559
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,000
movie theater, I mean in aater.

560
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: Theater, I agree, Monologe, watching.

561
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:31,319
Speaker 2: You play, I'd be more disciplined and more ready to

562
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,079
take all that.

563
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,599
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a reason most movies do not have

564
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,759
people turn to the camera and give long monologues the

565
00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:40,599
way they do in the theater. It's because the experience

566
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,319
of watching something on screen is very different from watching

567
00:29:44,359 --> 00:29:46,000
something live play out in front of you.

568
00:29:46,119 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: I go back to what I said in the beginning,

569
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,759
Like I started watching the movie and I was like,

570
00:29:50,759 --> 00:29:52,319
all right, he's going to a bar, and I'm like,

571
00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:55,240
all right, we're not leaving this bar. And I was like,

572
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,960
all right, I guess we're not leaving this bar. So

573
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,519
then you kind of like get adjust yourself to that situation,

574
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,559
right that, Yeah, and you know, like all right, I'm

575
00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:05,480
just gonna have to watch him talk NonStop, you know,

576
00:30:05,519 --> 00:30:05,839
at a.

577
00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: Bar and be terrible to everyone around town.

578
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,119
Speaker 2: So once you accept that, then I was able to

579
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,079
enjoy it a little more. But yeah, I think it

580
00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:17,359
would be perfect for a play, not a movie.

581
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: I think had they done the entire second act as

582
00:30:20,519 --> 00:30:23,559
the film itself right, got rid of Margaret Qualley, got

583
00:30:23,599 --> 00:30:25,599
rid of the long monologues, and just had it being

584
00:30:25,799 --> 00:30:29,079
you know, Rogers and Hart on the night Oklahoma opened,

585
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,279
that's a movie. But all the other stuff they shoved

586
00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:35,480
into this, I mean, I don't know. They just seemed

587
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,960
so determined to degrade this man as much as possible

588
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,799
on screen, and that's what really bothered me about it.

589
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,559
Speaker 2: The other thing that I think it's kind of a

590
00:30:46,599 --> 00:30:50,559
disservice here. I think the director you know, didn't do

591
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:55,480
well here is that he died after they did the Connecticut.

592
00:30:55,759 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: He died the night it open. That's the night he.

593
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: Died, denied it open, he felt bad, he fell ill,

594
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,319
and then later he was sticking to a husband and die.

595
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,359
But I think we missed at that part that he

596
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,599
actually accepted that offer, went on and did it.

597
00:31:10,079 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: No, And that's fine that you missed this but there

598
00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:15,119
was a title card at the end that says that

599
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:15,920
he did write.

600
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: Okay, but I would like to see that as a movie,

601
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:20,160
to see what you're so add more to it, Yeah,

602
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:21,440
not just know about it.

603
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: Again, this goes down to what they choose to show,

604
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,039
and they chose to show him as just degraded and

605
00:31:27,119 --> 00:31:31,039
self loathing and off putting in a creepy There is

606
00:31:31,279 --> 00:31:38,400
charm in this performance, but I think it they they

607
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,319
didn't sell the charm. Everything I've read about him talks

608
00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:44,240
about how much fun he was and how charming he

609
00:31:44,359 --> 00:31:46,960
was and how funny he was, and you get bits

610
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,279
of that in this performance, but for the most part,

611
00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:51,440
it is, like I said, like a root canal. And

612
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,920
even the other actors are playing the scene like, okay,

613
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,319
you're going on a little too long. And that's the

614
00:31:58,319 --> 00:31:59,240
part that bothers me.

615
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,519
Speaker 2: The same. He said, I'm very we are very familiar

616
00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:05,359
as a queer man. We are very familiarly with the

617
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,319
type of character. You know, this man, this type of man, gay,

618
00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:11,880
very intelligent, Yeah, funny.

619
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: He actually reminded me of someone we know on Fire Island.

620
00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:16,960
Actually bitter, Yeah, and funny.

621
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,799
Speaker 2: But you can only take it so much. Yeah, so

622
00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:24,559
when you transport that to a movie, yeah, when you

623
00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:26,640
make that a movie, it's a little too much.

624
00:32:26,759 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: It is, and like I said, it just felt mean spirited.

625
00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:34,000
I just could not shake that. I don't think that

626
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,400
was their goal. I think they thought they were doing

627
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,519
a loving homage, but they focused so much on the

628
00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:44,160
worst parts of his character and his life that that

629
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,319
didn't give you much reason to He was an asshole

630
00:32:47,319 --> 00:32:49,920
to everybody in the movie. He was creepy to everybody

631
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,920
in the movie. I just didn't get that charm that

632
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,160
they clearly thought they were getting across and he was.

633
00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:58,440
I actually think if you had a short Jewish guy

634
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,640
playing that role, I think he would been able to

635
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,079
deliver that kind of charm. There's a line like I

636
00:33:04,119 --> 00:33:07,880
didn't know going into it that Lorenz Heart was Jewish, and.

637
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: The whole thing with the piano player.

638
00:33:09,079 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: I mean, he gives that line to the piano player

639
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,440
where he's like, oh, no one could ever guess that

640
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,319
you're Jewish, which is funny, but I was like, well,

641
00:33:15,319 --> 00:33:17,960
that's a little offensive. And then I find out later

642
00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:20,160
after I was that he would. But you don't get

643
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,440
that because ethan Auk does not come across I'm sorry,

644
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,160
he doesn't. He just doesn't. Every once in a while

645
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,119
he would deliver a line and I was like, oh,

646
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,119
I guess he's Joeys. I like, but it just never

647
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,119
came out. And I feel like, if you were a

648
00:33:36,359 --> 00:33:41,119
New York musical theater jew, i'd ever heard Lorenz Heart speak.

649
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,680
But I'm pretty sure all of that came out in

650
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,839
his speaking voice, because men of that generation and time,

651
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,920
they all spoke a certain way. So I can't recommend

652
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,559
this film. I just don't love it.

653
00:33:54,039 --> 00:33:57,559
Speaker 2: I guess you'd have to to like a theater to

654
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:58,319
appreciate it.

655
00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,119
Speaker 1: I agree with that.

656
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,759
Speaker 2: I did like. I liked it. It got very annoying

657
00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:05,759
every now and then because the monologue would go forever.

658
00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:08,440
It would go on forever, and I'm like, all right,

659
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,159
can we just wrap this up? That story that isn't

660
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:15,880
that interesting? But in general it was. Anyway, I thought

661
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,000
his performance was incredible. I have to say, maybe he

662
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,320
doesn't look Jewish, maybe he's too tall and all that,

663
00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:25,159
but I thought his delivery was impressive. I mean, I

664
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,519
thought so. And he was funny sometimes he's so funny,

665
00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:33,480
especially when he's talking about Oklahoma with derekle Anyway, can.

666
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,039
Speaker 1: You recommend it?

667
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 2: If you like theater, if you like the history of

668
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,599
theater and musicals and all that. I think you'd appreciate.

669
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: It a little alright, and then didn't like it. I

670
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,800
can't recommend it, so, but I'd love to hear people's

671
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,440
thoughts on it, right, So please let us know. We're

672
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,239
gonna have a post on our site along with this,

673
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,960
so love to hear your thoughts. We'll be back next So.

674
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,119
I don't even have the films picked for August yet.

675
00:34:57,159 --> 00:34:59,320
I should be doing that today. Maybe we will have

676
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,440
something up to but I don't know what we're watching

677
00:35:01,519 --> 00:35:04,960
next week. It'll be a surprise and we'll be back

678
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,760
next week with the PSO podcast with whatever crosses our

679
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,840
eyes across our desk. So until then, take care of yourself,

680
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,280
love you mean it. Bye bye bye