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Speaker 1: And I made my decision at the base of the

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Tarquin Rock, which is where they used to throw the

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criminals off. You'd get convicted of a crime and they

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drag you to the rock and throw you off. And

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if you look in the guidebook, it says that it

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is not wheelchair accessible, which isn't surprising and all. The

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guidebook also said good for kids.

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Speaker 2: Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask

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what you can do for your country.

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Speaker 3: Mister Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

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Speaker 1: It's the Ricassee podcast with Charnols, C W. Cook, and

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Stephen Hayward. I'm James Lilys today with doctor ray onn

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Slam about the events in New York plus Iraq plus

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supreme courts. More than enough for a podcast.

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Speaker 3: So thanks to this decision, we can now properly file

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to proceed with these numerous policies and those that have

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been wrongly enjoined on a nationwide basis, including birthright citizenship,

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ending sanctuary city fund, suspending refugee resettlement, freezing unnecessary funding,

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shopping federal taxpayers from paying for trans gender search.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Everyone is the Ricochet Podcast number seven hundred and

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forty seven.

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Speaker 4: Buckle up as.

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Speaker 1: They like to say on the Internet when they're about

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to tell you something. We've got some interesting things to

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talk about. I'm James Lalyx in Minneapolis, where it's very cloudy,

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very cool, but the Karellion atop the City Hall tower

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was playing Blue Skies, which was just a nice way

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to end the week. Steven Hayward I assumes in sunny California,

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Charles C. W. Cook is in some drenched and probably

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human beyond human belief Florida. Gentlemen, we span the nation.

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How are you today and what's in your mind?

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Speaker 5: Well, I think both for Charles and I, it's a

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banner day at the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 4: That's the end of the term.

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Speaker 5: All the lingering decisions we've been waiting for were released

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here this morning Friday. And Charles, I think you've actually

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read them because you had a three hour head start

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on me. But it sounds like it's a clean sweep

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for our side, and so I'll toss over to you

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and you pick out what you think is most notable.

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Speaker 6: Well, it wasn't quite a clean sweep. There was a

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case Consumers Research which was about the non delegation doctrine

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and Neil Gorsuch was so upset by the majority opinion

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and it joined in his upset by Alita and Thomas,

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and he wrote a thirty five page which I would

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recommend reading. I was disappointed by that. I can't say

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I was surprised by that, Steve, because the Court has

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not been good on non delegation questions since about nineteen

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thirty five, so we've got ninety years of precedent here.

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And then there was a case about the structure of

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an agency that has to do with Obamacare and was very,

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very complicated, and I instinctively sided again with Gorst, Chelita,

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and Thomas.

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Speaker 4: But on the big cases that everyone.

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Speaker 6: Normal was paying attention to, it was a clean sweep

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for the original and originalist adjacent sidon. The biggest case

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of the day, perhaps of the year, was one that

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started off as a challenge to President Trump's executive order

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on birthright citizenship, but somehow along the way became not

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a case about that or the merits of that question,

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but about nationwide injunctions. And six to three the Court

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decided that with a couple of caveats and with a

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standard that will need to be applied to be understood, properly.

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Nationwide injunctions in the way that they have been used

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for the last twenty or so years are gone.

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Speaker 1: John pod Horiz said that bunkerbusters were used twice this week,

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once in Iran and once in Emmy COMI parent Responding

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to Justice Jackson, I don't know if you've seen that.

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There is some delicious language in this. Before Charles goes

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on to tell us why this is a great thing,

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she said, we will not dwell on Justice Jackson's argument,

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which is at odds with more than two centuries worth

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of president not to mention the Constitution itself, we only

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observe this. Justice Jackson decries an imperial executive while embracing

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an imperial judiciary. I mean meow boll of friskies for

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the lady, that is anyway. So Charles tell us more

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about the We all hate the national injunctions because they

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seem like a drastic overreach of the Court's authority that

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anyone could just step in and say, Nope, executive can't

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do that. That's the end of it. I'm here in Hawaii.

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I say what it's going to be in the law

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of the land. You said that there were some things

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yet to be ironed out. Might those things mean that

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the injunctions still continue to be a thorn in the

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side and the paw.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm sometimes squishy if I have national injunctions. We've

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talked about this before. I don't if you were on

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that episode. But I am persuaded by the majority opinion.

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The only question the Court was authorized to look at

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is whether or not they're constitutionally permissible and how they

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interact with statute, and I think the majority got it right.

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There are points elsewhere in the opinion, James, in which

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Amy Coney Barrett is equally disparaging toward Jackson. She describes

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her at one point as having offered a startling argument

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that is completely unmored from the Constitution or American history.

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It is a taught force. So I think the Court

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did get this right. And as this goes, that's the

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only thing that matters, because the Court is the court

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and not a dictator. So there are a couple of

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caveats here. And I'm not a lawyer, so I'm understanding

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its as best I can, having read it through once.

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First off, anything that has to do with the Administrative

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Procedure Act is exempt because Congress included an exemption when

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it passed the law, so if there is litigation over

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APA claims, there can be a nationwide injunction. Second, there

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is I think called Rule twenty three that I don't

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perfectly understand, but Rule twenty three litigation could still yield

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a national injunction. Apparently it's quite hard to satisfy the

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provisions of Rule twenty three. But Justice Alito is worried

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that what will happen now is lower courts will just say, oh,

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it's a Rule twenty three issue and start doing the

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same thing that they've been doing all along. And of

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course this is obvious, but it needed to be said.

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The third exception is the Supreme Court itself, which is

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allowed to impose national injunctions because that's what it's there for.

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Here is my take on it, before I shut up.

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I think this was the right decision legally. I think

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it is also the product of congressional abdication. Congress is

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allowed to set a whole bunch of rules around this

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that it hasn't, so the Court was only asked to

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do this because Congress hasn't laid out in what circumstances

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national injunctions are permissible. It should now do that. I

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worry a little bit though, that unless Congress starts taking

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back some power from the president, that this is going

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to empower the executive branch even more than it has

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been empowered. Not criticism of the Court. Again, Jackson's obsessed

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with She shouldn't be. It's not her job to worry

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about that. But as a citizen, I want Congress now

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to say, all right, here are the things the president

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can and can't do. Because although Kavanar is clear at

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one point to say that the court should take emergency applications,

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you are in effect going to be left after this

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with a situation in which it will take a lot

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longer to litigate pretty important questions. And if you look

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at something like, for example, Joe Biden's obviously disastrously deliberately

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unconstitutional student loan order, by the time that that had

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been decided by the Supreme Court, he could have spent

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two or three hundred billion dollars.

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Speaker 4: So unless this.

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Speaker 6: Is accompanied by the Supreme Court's willingness to take cases

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quickly and Congress taking back its power from the executive

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I do worry that not just under Trump, but under

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the next Democratic president. Let's say president AOC, you could

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see some really disastrous consequences, but that's a Congress problem,

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not a Supreme Court problem.

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Speaker 1: That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. A AOC

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will be the vice president to Gavin Newsom. I just

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wanted to correct that, Steven, you're taking well.

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Speaker 5: I think I agree with Charles. I think the rule

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twenty three business connects to the whole class action. That's right,

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that's right classification. So yeah, I think you're right that

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judges will be quicker to try and quant class action status.

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Speaker 4: I do think that.

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Speaker 5: I mean I should need to go back and look

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at the numbers here, but I actually think the Supreme

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Court moved with great speed, greater than maybe they ever have,

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which is why i'd have to go back and look

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in history. But do you think of the cases that

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were taken up and decided in the last well, just

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take this one. You know it was about executive order

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Trump issued his first day in office back in January,

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so barely six months ago, and the Supreme Court scheduled

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an oral argument late. It was heard in what a

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month ago, six or eight weeks ago, and we have

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the decision today. And I think that was the Chief

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Justice or a majority of the Court anyway, saying we

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can't let this linger into the next term because it's

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just creating too much uncertainty. So they moved with really

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quite astonishing speed for the Supreme Court. You're not allowing

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it to filter through the DC Circuit or the other

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circuit courts of appeal, which would resulted in circuit splits

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and no decision at all. There was the you know,

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the executive immunity case, wasn't I think that was this term,

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wasn't it?

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Speaker 4: Anyway?

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Speaker 5: I think the Court is now stepping up to try

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and fill the gap for some of the lassitude of

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Congress that you rightly point out, Charles. And so right

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now you have Congress as a spectator to the judiciary

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and executive trying to work out a new equilibrium here

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on these things.

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Speaker 6: And it's probably very encouraging that that note in the

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decision was written by Kavanaugh, who is now the immediate

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in justice on the Court, rather than by Conress Thomas,

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because it did no perhaps of willingness to step in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so where do we go from here?

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Speaker 1: Then?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I love Charles's argument.

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Speaker 1: That this actually no sort of deprives us of a

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tool that you can use to get these things in

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the Supreme Court faster. Should we just develop like Disney

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has a fast pass lane for certain cases.

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Speaker 5: Well, they have been doing the shadow docket business they

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called for a while now, where they do take cases

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and dispose of them quickly without necessarily a full oral argument,

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briefing and so forth. I think now in this particular case,

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once again, the executive order was about the birthright citizenship controversy,

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and they sidestep that. As we expected that, that was

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pretty clear that they weren't going to take up a

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substance of that. But now we'll have to. And so

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that case will be probably coming up next year and

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so a year from now, and there they can't I

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think repair to process and history. Well, I shouldn't have

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said that it won't be a process argument or a

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jurisdiction argument. They're going to have to rule on the

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substance of the teeth Amendment and that's going to be

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a big fight.

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Speaker 6: I think, James. One thing that is always important with

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court decisions to stress is that the Court is not

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expected to or allowed to come up with an answer

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that makes everything perfect. And you say, where are we Now,

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there are some downsides to this, even though I think

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it's the right decision. For example, it is offensive to

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our constitutional order to have circuit splits on matters that

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are really crucial. I mean, for example, let's suppose that

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your president, Gavin Newsom says that he intends to start

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confiscating firearms, and let's suppose that the Fifth Circuit says

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that's illegal under the Second Amendment, and there's no staturgy justification,

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but the Second Circuit says it's fine. What you have

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then is a situation in which it is o k

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for the federal government to confiscate firearms in New York

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but not in Texas, which, by the way, would be

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the sensible way of doing it, given out heavily armed

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everyone is in either place. Now, that is a problem, right,

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And if you take the country's history just after the

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Civil War as perhaps a more realistic example, it would

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be a problem if it were fine to discriminate racially

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in some parts of the country and not in others.

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But that is it seems to be the way that

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the system works until the circuit splits are resolved. But

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we aren't always going to like it. And I think

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what I just find so annoying about some of the

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responses to this that I've seen and about Jackson's descent

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is she seems to think, and those who have criticized

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his decisions seem to think that if there is any

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potential downside to any decision that is faithful to the law,

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it's the job of the Supreme Court to step in

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and prevent that.

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Speaker 4: But it's not.

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Speaker 6: We're going to have times in our life as American

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citizens where things are bad. So you know, one of

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the things that it leaves us with should be the

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expectation that we elect people who aren't bloody awful.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, And there we are a a new slogan for

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the conservative side. Sometimes things are going to be bad.

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I mean, it actually is the truth of the matter.

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And one of the ways you make them better is

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to get together with friends. And we'd like to remind

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you as always that Ricochet has meetups where people get

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together in person. And if you're thinking, you know, I

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just want to sit around other people and I don't

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want to do that and talk politics, you'd be surprised.

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How little will we talk about politics? Actually, it's everything

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under the sun. Because you meet people like minded you

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find you have similar interest hobbies and passions. It's a

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great fun. Last one I had was in New York.

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I got COVID. It was worth it. Matt Bauzer is

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holding the annual German Fest meetup that's July twenty fifth,

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twenty seventh in Milwaukee. And our old friend Randyandy Wandy Wivova,

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Sandy Rivo, Randy you know you love. He's assembling a

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group to meet in Detroit and that will be interesting

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seeing the revived state and status of some of the

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most beautiful skyscrapers in America. So go to ricochet dot com,

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check the member meet up panel, and if you're in

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the neighborhood, you know, show up or start your own

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and just see how Ricochet people come to you. We're

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like that. One of the things we're also like is that,

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you know, we want a little solace at the end

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of the day. Right, y'all got your checklists between the

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hours of nine to five, you got these things to do,

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this thing, that thing. Getting through that checklist can be

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hard every day and boarding and wrote butt but cozy Earth.

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They want you to have the time to prioritize you

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outside of those work hours. And you're five to nine show,

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we say Cozy Earth. Lets your thoughts turn.

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Speaker 4: To luxurious softness.

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Speaker 4: It's essential.

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Speaker 1: We need time for relaxation, for recharging and soaking in

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space that feels like a personal retreat where comfort and

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serenity come together naturally. Charles I believe he was under

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the instruction of his wife to purchase, to use Cozy Earth,

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and he is here to tell you briefly that they

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are the finest sheets on the planet.

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Speaker 6: Well, I was under the instruction in the sense that

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I was wanting to click to the mouse. But she

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gave me the instruction, she gave me the details, she

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gave me the color, she gave me the size. She

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was in charge of this, and quite rightly. But I

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terrific sheets. They are very comfortable. They are cooling, which

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matters an enormous amount. You already mentioned the weather in

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Florida and the humidity, and as I point out, every time,

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you really need to get sheets right because the amount

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that I spend that time on becuzy sheets as opposed

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to some other brand.

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Speaker 1: Well, the reason they're so good is that they use

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a baby. And they're not just soft. The weave fabric

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com code Ricochet Sleep Cooler, lounge, lighter, stay cozy. And

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we thank Cozy Earth for sponsoring this the Ricochet Podcast

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And thanks to Charles, we not only have the new

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Republican slogan sometimes things are going to be bad, but

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we have another slogan as well, you have to get

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your sheets right. So I can't argue with any of

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those things. Joining us now. Ryan Salam, president of the

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Manhattan Institute. In two thousand and nine, he co authored

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A Grand New Party with the Rosstatt, and his latest

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book is Melting Pot or Civil War. He can also

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find his writing in The Atlantic and National Affairs.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Hi guys, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I love New York. I'm tired of it after about

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three or four days. I say you win and I leave.

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Speaker 4: But I love New York.

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Speaker 1: And like everybody who grew up in the Midwest casting

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their eyes towards Gotham, I've always felt an attachment to

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it that seems irrational, emotional. But it's America in its

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most vigorous and proud form, and lately the choices that

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they make mystify us. But you think they can probably

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get past in Eric Adams, they can probably endure, you know,

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de Blasio. It's a strong place now, this guy. Basically,

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that's my question, and it's not even a question this guy.

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Speaker 2: So when you're thinking about Zoronmndani, we're tempted to think

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about the discontinuities because he seems so different, he's so

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much younger. He just you know, seems you know, so

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dangerous to many of us. The interesting thing are the continuities. Now,

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consider that New York City had a self described Democratic

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socialist mayor. His name was Bill de Blasio some years ago.

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Now consider also, when you're looking at the way New

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York City is governed, we are in the thick of

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a really profound affordability crisis. Is it something that is

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the product of a free market in housing. Decidedly not.

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It's the product of a crazy accretion of rules that

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essentially treats building private housing as though it is a

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kind of suspect activity, you know, borderline criminal. You know,

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it's just, you know, any number of things. So on

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one level, you know, I am tempted to get drawn

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into the discontinuity. This is a guy who says things

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that are incredibly alarming to me as a conservative. And

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by the way, I should stipulate, I'm speaking on my

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own behalf, not as a spokesperson for the institution I

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lead or anything like that. So just to make that

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crystal clear, I will say that this is someone who

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says totally alarming stuff all the time. But we should

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also just recognize that, like the proverbial frog and the

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boiling pot, it's not as though we're flipping a switch

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and we're going from robust free market capitalism to a

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bolivarian revolution by the Hudson. You're just really the conditions

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that created this were the accretion of failed policies, call

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them socialists, call them progressive, call them whatever you want

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that actually contributed to this real crisis.

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Speaker 1: You're right about the accretion of strange laws and bylaws

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and regulations that prevent good housing from being built, even

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at the same time that they can build the most enormous,

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waving in the wind pencil thin skyscrapers by Central Park.

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Now they can bail those, but they can't build regular

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housing for people and the rest of the city. This

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guy with his talk of rent control and the rest

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of it, and the usual progressive platitudes, Yeah, you can

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say there's continuity. There's somebody like Deblasio, But Deblasio struck

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me as both sort of lazy and incompetent and not

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particularly motivated to do the things that would destroy New York.

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This guy seems to have a fire under him, or

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is he just a striver who's got a good presentation

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and is going to use this tool set of ideas

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that appeal to the shoot to the Luigi Manjohni fan

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club in order to insert himself into the machine and

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profit thereafter.

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Speaker 4: Forever does he mean it?

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Speaker 2: If there were, it's all it's just a matter of

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what does he mean right? Because you know, here's the thing,

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you know, the reason why this person is a skillful

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politician is that he says different things to different audiences.

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He's able to hit different registers. You know, he's someone

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who is you know, granted you up until now accomplished

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relatively little in life. But he's someone who is charismatic,

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and he's someone who has a seductive ability to mirror

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to people what exactly it is they want to hear. So,

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you know, to the kind of revolutionary socialist crowd, they're

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very confident he's one of them, and he winks at them,

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and he kind of makes it clear that he's one

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of them. In all sorts of ways. This is someone

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who has really been a kind of professional anti Israel

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obsessive for his entire adult life, and yet he's also

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able to say, how dare you accuse me of being

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an anti semi. I will I will increase the amount

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of spending, you know, to fight hate crimes by eight x.

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You know, we're going to do this. We're going to

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do that. You know, it's this is his talent. It's

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the ability to be all things to all people. And

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there literally are the same nonprofit progressive establishment that is

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responsible for New York's dire state. These guys are reconciling

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themselves to him because you know, he represents another face

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for the same kind of failed policies with more aggressive

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agro language turned up to eleven. That's one version of it, right,

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Another version of it is that, you know, how do

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you actually kick the door down? People are calling him

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a socialist, and the problem with that label is that

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what people hear as they hear well sweet Sweden right,

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Norway right, Denmark right, when actually this is you know,

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you're looking at the ban Dung generation, you know, come

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back to life. When you're looking at is a kind

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of third worldist position. And you're also looking at someone

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who's a left wing populist. You know, if you're looking

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at socialism and Northern Europe, you're looking at we have vats.

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You know, middle class working class people pay really high

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consumption taxes and they, you know, and they get some stuff.

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You pay with one hand, you get something else on

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the other hand. Right, What this is instead is a

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kind of punitive egalitarianism. They raise taxes when they were

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flushed with revenue. They raise taxes because they want to

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raise taxes on the rich, even if it actually does

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huge damage to the working in middle class people because

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there's bigger you know, fish to fry. I mean, this

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is a different kind of agenda. But the problem is

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it's totally prodean. It's totally prodean. So it can be

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one thing one minute, it's going to be another thing

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another minute. It's going to be like, hey, Brad Lander

431
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has a million position papers here, and oh, it's ridiculous

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to catastrophize. It's ridiculous to think you've got to take

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him seriously, not literally.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: It is a classic populist playbook. And the democratic establishment

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is hollow, it is dead, it is bereft, It is

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completely lacking in talent and imagination and energy. And they

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were there for the picking.

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Speaker 6: Hey Ryan, nice to see you.

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Speaker 2: Nice to see you too, Charlie.

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Speaker 4: Here's my question.

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Speaker 6: I grew up in England, US, you know, and I

443
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had this conception of history that essentially guarantee that if

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things got really bad, people would be sensible, because I

445
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learned about the seventy and then I learned about Margaret

446
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Thatcher coming in and she fixed it. But now if

447
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I listened to my friends and family back home, they

448
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sound like people did in the seventies. New York seemed

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to me, especially when I lived there in the glory

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days twenty eleven and so on, to be of the

451
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same pattern that it had been awful in the seventies

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and eighties. But then New York has got sensible, and

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they brought in Giuliani, and then they kept electing Bloomberg,

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you know, not my favorite guy, but it's mayor of

455
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New York, pretty terrific. And then wow, they've gone to

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de Blasio and Eric Adams and now this guy probably

457
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And I wonder how you see it, because on the

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one hand, we tend to think as conservatives, if things

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get bad, then people will be sensible and they'll fix it.

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But then I look at Chicago, and Chicago's never done

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what New York did, and Chicago seems basically incapable of

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fixing itself. So are you worried that New York could

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be in the same place or do you do you

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think there's enough about New York, whether it's Wall Street

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or just the fact that it turns over all the

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time where it's just so dynamic. That means that even

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if this guy is awful and screws everything up, there'll

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be a backlash and you'll get sensible policies.

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Speaker 2: Again, the hard part is that when you're thinking about

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the electorate, you know, who are the individuals who are

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learning and how are they learning? You know, you always

472
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have to keep it in mind that we're looking at

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a dynamic, changing electorate. So, you know, the white population

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of New York City is not that much lower, perhaps surprisingly,

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00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,559
than it was you know, call it in nineteen ninety three,

476
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,920
nineteen eighty nine. What's different is that it's no longer

477
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,839
multi generational New Yorkers. You know, folks who are third

478
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,519
and fourth generation, you know Italian and Irish, you know

479
00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:51,160
working class, lower middle class, you know homeowners, and so

480
00:25:52,079 --> 00:25:54,799
it's a different group of people. So the white population

481
00:25:54,839 --> 00:25:57,960
in New York right now is much more college educated

482
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,720
than it had been before. You've got a lot of

483
00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:02,680
folks who are transplants. But you know, so that's one thing, right,

484
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,160
there's one narrative that, oh, you know, these guys, it's

485
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,799
these guys are rich and this kind of thing, and

486
00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:09,039
you know, it's luxury beliefs. And I actually think that

487
00:26:09,079 --> 00:26:11,319
there's a lot to that. My colleague Rob Henderson, you know,

488
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,160
is the is the one who's kind of, you know,

489
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,680
advanced this luxury beliefs thesis. But another part of it

490
00:26:15,759 --> 00:26:18,000
is this. So you know, if you're looking at the

491
00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:20,160
New York City housing market, and allow me to bore

492
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,880
you for a moment, you know, you've got about sixty

493
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,480
eight percent of the units are rental units, multi family

494
00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:30,119
rental units. Of those units, I believe it's about forty

495
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,559
eight percent are in the so called unregulated market, and

496
00:26:34,599 --> 00:26:37,400
then fifty two percent are rent control, rent stabilized. So,

497
00:26:37,559 --> 00:26:39,920
you know, people have observed that Cuomo seemed to win

498
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,680
in really poor neighborhoods and then in this tiny sliver

499
00:26:43,839 --> 00:26:46,839
of really rich neighborhoods precincts with a median income of

500
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,920
over let's say, tw hundred fifty thousand dollars a year.

501
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,640
You know, Cuomo did well in those two but in

502
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,039
that middle when you're looking at you know, people in

503
00:26:56,079 --> 00:26:59,240
neighborhoods with a median income. You know, look seventy five

504
00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:03,079
thousand dollars to two hundred thousand dollars or so. These

505
00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:07,440
people aren't poor. But it's a really interesting population because

506
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,160
if you think about the people in New York, the

507
00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:13,440
people who kind of make it here, it feels more

508
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,359
and more like you make it here if you have

509
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,440
a side deal, if you inherited a rent stabilized apartment,

510
00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:23,000
if you're living in Nischa housing, you know, and you

511
00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:25,039
have forever, which is not great, by the way, really

512
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,519
terrible and miserable. Public housing isn't great, but it's a

513
00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:29,839
place to live where you're not buffeted by the fact

514
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,319
that you know, rents went up this last year by

515
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,359
sixteen percent in the private market, you know the media,

516
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,559
and rent for a two bedroom apartment in New York

517
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:41,480
City right now it is fifty five hundred dollars. Wow,

518
00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:45,480
these numbers are completely staggering, Okay, And that's the problem

519
00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:46,680
is that, you know, if you're a new cumboer in

520
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,000
New York, you're a college kid, you didn't just move

521
00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:50,599
into it. You know, you didn't just going to find

522
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,839
one of the handful of rent regulated apartments that are

523
00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:56,519
on the market. Rent regulated apartments get passed down from

524
00:27:56,559 --> 00:28:00,119
generation to generation, right now, Okay, what you're dealing. You

525
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,559
moved into that unregulated sector, and then you've got I mean,

526
00:28:03,599 --> 00:28:06,160
there's so many dynamics to hear to who's living here. So,

527
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,200
you know, do you think that those guys were making

528
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,680
you know, it's they're making decent money, low six figures

529
00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:13,759
anywhere else in the country that would afford you a

530
00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:17,920
pretty great life, But in New York City it means

531
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,640
that you're on a knife edge. In New York City,

532
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,440
who means you're spending a third of your income on

533
00:28:21,519 --> 00:28:24,319
rent and you're living with roommates, you know what I mean,

534
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,960
the kind of indignities that you have to endure. And

535
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,480
then they look at the other, you know, kind of economy,

536
00:28:29,559 --> 00:28:32,319
the rich, glamorous economy that gets the attention in New York,

537
00:28:32,519 --> 00:28:36,720
the capital accumulation economy where you know, housing price appreciation

538
00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:39,160
is part of it. But then also just the people

539
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,559
who own assets, they own equity, they're not just collecting

540
00:28:42,599 --> 00:28:46,160
a professional salary and navigating the housing market. These are

541
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:52,200
the guys who are the most totally radical out there.

542
00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:55,880
They want to burn it down. And these people are

543
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,559
not the people. They don't remember New York City. And

544
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:01,000
they also by the way, you know, under Eric Adams,

545
00:29:01,039 --> 00:29:03,400
like in the last year, he's not perfect. Yes, crime

546
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,079
has gone down markedly in twenty twenty five. So weirdly,

547
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,440
the fact that some things were kind of okay and

548
00:29:09,559 --> 00:29:12,880
limping along actually meant that, you know, Zara Mangani could

549
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,960
come in and zero in on the fact that your

550
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,640
rent is a hell of a lot higher now than

551
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,279
it was when you first moved here five or ten

552
00:29:19,359 --> 00:29:19,759
years ago.

553
00:29:20,079 --> 00:29:20,799
Speaker 4: Why is Krimdell.

554
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,279
Speaker 2: Oh, there's a lot of complexity to that. You know,

555
00:29:25,359 --> 00:29:27,119
I have a lot of colleagues who thought very deeply

556
00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:30,039
about this. So, you know, part of it could be

557
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,240
pay you know, there are big national trends. They're big

558
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,240
and complex. You know. Part of it could be that

559
00:29:35,279 --> 00:29:37,279
we have a truly you know, we have a really

560
00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:40,559
excellent police commissioner right now, who is someone who has

561
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,400
been a public servant for a very long time. She

562
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,319
knows the police department extremely well, and to the extent

563
00:29:45,359 --> 00:29:48,119
that there was a kind of cronyism and laziness in

564
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,160
the department she's been really thoughtful about bringing that downe

565
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,880
and improving morale in the police force. If you look

566
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,200
at law enforcement around the country, morale has been a

567
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,440
real challenge, and that's been pronounced in New York. You know,

568
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,039
you have a huge number of folks have retired. You

569
00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:04,799
have people who are experienced NYPD officers who left to

570
00:30:04,839 --> 00:30:08,400
other jurisdictions. When you have competent, effective leadership, that can

571
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,680
make a difference. So again, there are many different factors.

572
00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:14,279
There are also real things cutting against us. You know,

573
00:30:14,319 --> 00:30:16,799
for example, we have a bunch of laws at the

574
00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:19,880
state level here in New York that are real outliers.

575
00:30:20,519 --> 00:30:22,160
You know, there are a ton of places that embrace

576
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,160
criminal justice leniency. They called it criminal justice reform. New

577
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,039
York actually really embraced policies that were really out there

578
00:30:31,119 --> 00:30:35,079
even by the standards of that rush towards leniency. And

579
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,240
so you basically have some you know, folks in law

580
00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:41,359
enforcement who are doing their best to manage that. And

581
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,920
then you have prosecutors. So I would say that the

582
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,599
prosecutors in two of our five boroughs are particularly bad.

583
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,440
In Manhattan and the Bronx. You've got other prosecutors who

584
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,240
are not great. They're not necessarily the people that I'd

585
00:30:53,279 --> 00:30:55,000
want to be there, but they at least live on

586
00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:57,759
planet Earth, which is helpful. So there's a lot of

587
00:30:57,759 --> 00:31:00,359
complexity to what's happened on the crime front. I do

588
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,000
think that, you know, there is more effective leadership right now.

589
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,079
And another thing, you'll hear a lot of people say, oh,

590
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,559
New York is actually the safest big city in America. Oh,

591
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,160
this is exaggerated, and actually, look there's something to that.

592
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,720
You know, New York City is an immigrant rich city.

593
00:31:16,319 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 6: Uh.

594
00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: You know, New York City is a place that's denser.

595
00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:22,200
You know, we do have some firewalls against crime, but

596
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,400
at the same time, disorder counts for a lot more

597
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,640
in New York City. Charlie Cook used to live here

598
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,640
and he, like me, was packed in like a sardine

599
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,039
on the subway. So if you have, you know, someone

600
00:31:32,119 --> 00:31:35,480
walking down the street, you know in the suburbs of Jacksonville,

601
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,400
who is you know, half naked, wearing short shorts and

602
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,880
you know, kind of ranting and you know, smelling like

603
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,279
he may or may not need a bath.

604
00:31:42,519 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 4: You know, that's exactly Charlie.

605
00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: Charlie can get on his golf court and then speed

606
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,720
up and then kind of go away. If you are

607
00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:53,400
on a subway with this person, uh, you know, then

608
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,680
that that's a different situation. And actually the value proposition

609
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,599
of New York City is density. It is the fact

610
00:31:59,599 --> 00:32:01,519
that you get to be kind of around other people.

611
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,160
You get the vitality that comes with that that can

612
00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:07,519
spoil rotten if you have, you know, people who are

613
00:32:07,559 --> 00:32:11,160
bad apples. That's why there is a natural, naturally authoritarian

614
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,279
element to effectively running a city like New York City.

615
00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:16,599
That's something that you know, Mike Bloomberg, for all of

616
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,000
his cosmopolitanism, understood it was you know, kind of a

617
00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:23,319
you know, an iron fist and a velvet glove. He

618
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,920
understood how that worked. By the way, build a Blasio.

619
00:32:26,039 --> 00:32:28,440
Early on he understood that if he was going to

620
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,319
demonstrate that a democratic socialist could run a city and

621
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,079
be the successor to Bernie Sanders, which was his great dream,

622
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,039
that you know, actually you could not let crime get

623
00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:41,400
out of control. He thought that right up until Democratic

624
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:45,559
party politics changed circa eighteen twenty nineteen twenty twenty. But

625
00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:47,599
you know, much more to say there.

626
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 5: So Rahan out here in California, we're a little bit

627
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,480
annoyed that the New York is so effectively challenging our

628
00:32:55,519 --> 00:32:59,480
monopoly on bad elected officials and progressive policy. Right, So,

629
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,599
and I wish I could have your equanimity about the scene.

630
00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:06,279
So a couple of questions, one on the substance of

631
00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:08,079
the mayor's office in New York and then one about

632
00:33:08,079 --> 00:33:10,160
the politics of this election campaign to come.

633
00:33:10,359 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: Just Steve, just want to say, no equanimity here. What

634
00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:15,000
I am as a realist and I want to love

635
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,200
everything that's going on squarely dead in the eye. So

636
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,759
people understand that things were rotting a long time before

637
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,119
the last seventy two hours when people stopped started paying attention.

638
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,119
But please, yeah, okay, yeah, well all right.

639
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 5: So you know one thing that I didn't know until

640
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,759
I learned this in graduate school forty years ago, is

641
00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:35,839
that municipal government is really odd in America. We have

642
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,160
what we call weak mayor systems and strong mayor systems,

643
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:41,640
and so it's always surprising for people to learn that

644
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,759
Chicago has a weak mayor system. And you say, well,

645
00:33:44,839 --> 00:33:47,119
Richard Daly was one of the most powerful mayors in

646
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,680
American history. Well, that's because he was such a skillful

647
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,079
politician and built a machine. New York has a strong

648
00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:55,319
mayor system. By that, I mean they've got the mayors

649
00:33:55,319 --> 00:33:59,359
I understand. It gets to set the budget with pretty

650
00:33:59,359 --> 00:34:01,400
strong authority over It gets to appoint the heads of

651
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,039
all the departments without necessarily the unlike Chicago, where the

652
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,240
pointees have to be ratified by the city Council and

653
00:34:07,279 --> 00:34:09,199
so forth. So you have a very strong executive in

654
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,880
New York. It was always tempered. Sorry for the history

655
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,280
lesson here, keep it short for listeners. It was always

656
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,000
tempered by the democratic machine that would cough up a beam,

657
00:34:18,559 --> 00:34:20,880
especially right. And it's been and you said itself, the

658
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,000
democratic establishment is in New York is dead. It's been

659
00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:27,920
dying ever since I think ed Koch probably. So now

660
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,840
we have this thirty two year old or thirty three

661
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,599
year old kid who's very charismatic, as you say, and

662
00:34:32,639 --> 00:34:35,039
he's going to be given some powerful keys to a

663
00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:35,920
powerful engine.

664
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 4: And you already mentioned that.

665
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,119
Speaker 5: Gatshi's said he's going to spend more money on hate speech. Well,

666
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,280
I don't doubt that he might well do that, but

667
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,039
I'm worried that it's really going to be the kind

668
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:48,079
of hate speech that we're worried about, meaning you know,

669
00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:50,320
the anti Semitic outbursts, seeing all.

670
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:51,079
Speaker 4: The rest of the place.

671
00:34:51,119 --> 00:34:53,199
Speaker 5: So anyway, I'm just extremely there's more of a comment

672
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,280
than a question, but it's designed a photic reaction. I

673
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,280
think that this is an order of magnitude more serious

674
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,199
than Deblasio's progressivism was.

675
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 4: How what do you think?

676
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:09,519
Speaker 2: So here's the dilemma for people who oppose Zorn Mom, Donnie, Okay.

677
00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:17,000
The dilemma is that there is a symbiotic relationship between

678
00:35:17,079 --> 00:35:20,480
people who are saying that you know, basically you know,

679
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,840
not that you're saying this Steve, that people are going

680
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,639
to get shot in the streets. You know what I mean,

681
00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:26,639
they're going to be firing squads in Central Park, which

682
00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:28,320
is not what you're saying. But there are a lot

683
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,320
of people might you know, look, I am alarmed. I

684
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,400
am alarmed by many many things. I don't know. If

685
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:36,920
you want me to talk your ear off, I'm happy

686
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,840
to do it, you know, for the next you know,

687
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,239
twelve hours about basically, you know, kind of what this

688
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,480
gentleman has said, what he evidently believes about Israel, the

689
00:35:47,519 --> 00:35:50,039
threat that you know, kind of this kind of third

690
00:35:50,119 --> 00:35:56,239
worldist brand of socialism represents to peace and security in

691
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,440
a very diverse city, in a city that is home

692
00:35:58,559 --> 00:36:02,199
to a population of close one million Jewish Americans, you

693
00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:06,400
know there's a lot that's extremely combustible. So make no mistake,

694
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,920
I am not dismissing that one bit. I think it's

695
00:36:11,039 --> 00:36:13,880
dire and I think it's dangerous. What is even more

696
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,760
dangerous is what has happened more broadly, if you're looking

697
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,239
at national democratic politics, this is the reality that the

698
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,480
people who are running against Zora Mondania did democratic primary

699
00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:27,840
did not seem to understand. If you look at the

700
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,800
views of democratic primary voters nationally and in New York

701
00:36:32,199 --> 00:36:36,559
about Israel, about capitalism, about a great many other basic

702
00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:40,960
realities of life, it is not what it had been

703
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,159
in nineteen ninety five. So because of that, what it

704
00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:49,280
means is that certain attacks that people made because they

705
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,760
believe them, because they're right, because they are legitimate attacks

706
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,760
to make their legitimate criticisms, did not land. Not only

707
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,400
did not they not land, but there are people who

708
00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:01,119
are fueled by the fact that when something seems like

709
00:37:01,119 --> 00:37:04,159
an establishment stitch up, when it looks like all of

710
00:37:04,199 --> 00:37:08,320
the shadowy, powerful forces are uniting against you, what does

711
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,440
that mean? So that is something that is extremely important

712
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:12,440
to keep in mind. And by the way, you said

713
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,199
the never establishment is dead, that's actually not quite what

714
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,639
I meant. What I'm in is at their bereft of ideas.

715
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:19,360
I think there are a lot of folks who are

716
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,719
still there. And by the way, the establishment in New

717
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,559
York City for a while has been a non profit

718
00:37:24,679 --> 00:37:29,480
progressive establishment. And this nonprofit progressive establishment represented by someone

719
00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:32,360
like Brad Lander, they've taken off one mask and they're

720
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,960
putting on another mask, and that now they're trying to

721
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,800
get behind Mandani and they're kind of deeply interconnected. And

722
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,159
so what they're going to try to do is have

723
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,960
another new breath of life, which is that well, we've

724
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,599
been thoroughly irradiated and discredited and kind of this way

725
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,199
you would be in a fair world, right, except they

726
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:51,679
actually still hold all the levers of power. They're still there,

727
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,280
and now what they're seeing is that, ah, this is

728
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,199
another opportunity to be in touch with a TikTok generation.

729
00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:01,400
So this is the contradiction here, And you know, is this,

730
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,800
you know, going to be Havena on the Hudson Okay,

731
00:38:05,039 --> 00:38:08,719
On the other hand, is it a corrupt, broken nonprofit

732
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,639
progressive establishment that actually caused the affordability crisis, that actually

733
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,800
they were the ones who went it was fashionable to

734
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,199
say defund the police. Did now they say Department of

735
00:38:18,199 --> 00:38:20,639
Community Safety and then the idea that they could to

736
00:38:20,639 --> 00:38:23,239
have a new breath of life by us saying that actually,

737
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,760
this is totally different from what came before. I don't

738
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,119
know if we want to let people off the hook

739
00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:30,199
that way, Steve, That's that's the kind of an awkward question here.

740
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 5: Well, all right, I've been thinking back to a parallel

741
00:38:34,519 --> 00:38:37,000
from here in California from a very long time ago.

742
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,719
It's amazing Hut's forgotten a new deal history that in

743
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,280
nineteen thirty four Upton Sinclair won the Democratic primary to

744
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,519
be governor, and it's set the same kind of headlines

745
00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:49,840
you're seeing in the Wall Street Journal this week. Panic

746
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,159
in the business community, hysteria in Hollywood, and it took

747
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,599
weeks for people to gin up the app. Oh, by

748
00:38:55,639 --> 00:38:58,320
the way, he's running against the mediocre Republican incumbent who's

749
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,000
kind of roughly the equivalent of Eric Adams. It's a

750
00:39:03,039 --> 00:39:05,000
great story that says, I say, it doesn't make the

751
00:39:05,039 --> 00:39:08,199
history books. Everyone always talks about Roosevelt being worried about

752
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,519
Huey Long, but they were worried about Upton Sinclair being

753
00:39:10,559 --> 00:39:12,639
elected governor of California.

754
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:19,159
Speaker 4: Went in a in a jungle primary. Oh that's pretty good.

755
00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:19,880
I gotta borrow that.

756
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:21,599
Speaker 5: I should write an article I think for your city

757
00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:24,039
General Y Haunt about that the lessons of that campaign,

758
00:39:24,079 --> 00:39:27,000
because what ultimately turned it around, and it took weeks

759
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:28,400
for people to say, what are we gonna do about

760
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,239
this guy? He's world famous, he's popular. By the way,

761
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,960
it was called the EPIC campaign that was short for

762
00:39:34,119 --> 00:39:37,960
End Poverty in California. Sounds a lot like like a

763
00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:41,840
Bond dobby. And what it took was Hollywood stepped in.

764
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,400
It was uh, Louis B. Mayor was the ringleader. And

765
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,239
by the way, you know, just as Hollywood is today.

766
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,360
The writers and actors loved Upton Sinclair rights, but it

767
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,639
was the owners of the studios and some of the

768
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,000
business interests, and what they did was went back through

769
00:39:55,159 --> 00:39:58,599
you might say, the equivalent of Sinclair's Twitter feed. Right,

770
00:39:58,679 --> 00:40:00,639
He'd said a lot of crazy stuf for years and

771
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,599
used it very effectively against him and ended up re

772
00:40:03,679 --> 00:40:07,119
electing this mediocre Republican Okay, so we're hearing all these machinations.

773
00:40:07,159 --> 00:40:10,559
Now that's well, maybe Andrew Cuomo shouldn't drop out, Maybe

774
00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:13,239
she'd run as an independent. Maybe we'll get Curtis Sliwa

775
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,039
to drop the Republican line and make Adams the Republican

776
00:40:17,079 --> 00:40:20,039
nom you know, all kinds of things like that. So

777
00:40:20,079 --> 00:40:22,079
it's going to take a while, I think to see

778
00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:25,400
any opposition. But my suspicion is, even if Wall Street

779
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,440
puts up a lot of money and the sort of

780
00:40:28,519 --> 00:40:31,000
non or I'll put it this way, the for profits

781
00:40:31,039 --> 00:40:34,440
segments of the Democratic establishment try to draw a line,

782
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,719
I could actually see that helping mom Dommy, because he's,

783
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,480
you know, like you say, charismatic, is going to have

784
00:40:39,519 --> 00:40:42,639
a lot of national interest and attention, and if he wins,

785
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,119
he'll probably get off to a big, flashy start. And

786
00:40:46,199 --> 00:40:49,360
my prediction is he's his name will be immediately floated

787
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,239
as a Democratic candidate for twenty twenty eight for president.

788
00:40:53,079 --> 00:40:56,079
So would you have any prognostications or expectations of how

789
00:40:56,119 --> 00:40:56,920
this might unfold.

790
00:40:57,119 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 2: You've given me a lot to work with here, So yeah,

791
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,440
so thirty three years old, you know, I don't know

792
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,480
about you know, kind of there there are a lot

793
00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:12,360
of different uh, you know, bumps in the road before

794
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,760
you get to twenty twenty eight, I made the Deblasio

795
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,320
comparison right, which understandably, you know, we recoil from him.

796
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,400
He's a different figure. But you know, one difference is

797
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,440
that Bill de Blasio was a Red Sox fan. Bill

798
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,239
de Blasio is not someone who lived and breathed New York.

799
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,559
He didn't really kind of come across to people as

800
00:41:31,599 --> 00:41:35,039
someone who just really loved the city. And when you

801
00:41:35,079 --> 00:41:38,440
look at you know, Mike Bloomberg, you know, he was

802
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,760
not beloved by the city's you know, kind of progressive cadreds,

803
00:41:42,159 --> 00:41:44,800
but you know, he was someone who didn't have to

804
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,519
be in that job, and he's someone there was a

805
00:41:46,559 --> 00:41:49,039
certain kind of affection for him. If you look at

806
00:41:49,039 --> 00:41:51,679
Mam Donni, Mam Donnie does seem to actually like New York.

807
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,440
You know, he's someone who actually, you know, he loves

808
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,639
the Halal carts. He loves that. You know, there's something

809
00:41:56,639 --> 00:42:01,480
about him that seems earnest and approachable. And also, you know,

810
00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:03,719
he's thirty three, so he has a lot of time.

811
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,400
And you know, I think that if you want a

812
00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:10,239
scenario where a guy like this can become a really

813
00:42:10,599 --> 00:42:14,360
you know, formidable threat, you know, on a national scale.

814
00:42:14,679 --> 00:42:17,000
I actually don't think it would be rushing to a

815
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,199
twenty twenty eight presidential bid. And my suspicion is that

816
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:21,960
he gets that. And I think that when you're looking

817
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,760
at the fact that AOC was a very critical mover

818
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,159
in getting behind him, I think that there's a line,

819
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:28,719
and I don't think he's going to be looking to

820
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,719
jump that line. When you look at this world of

821
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,599
hard left political organizing, when you look at the DSA,

822
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,039
when you look at the people that they look to

823
00:42:37,599 --> 00:42:42,880
as their you know, standard bearers, their inspirations, they believe,

824
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,039
you know, in building a discipline movement. You know, this

825
00:42:47,079 --> 00:42:49,679
guy knocked on over one and a half million doors.

826
00:42:49,679 --> 00:42:51,960
He did not do that by himself. He did that

827
00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:54,320
with an army of volunteers, tens of thousands of them.

828
00:42:55,119 --> 00:43:00,199
And I think that, you know, the I suspect the

829
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,559
moves are to basically co oct that nonprofit progressive establishment.

830
00:43:04,639 --> 00:43:07,960
As you're governing cadres, you know, you take the helm

831
00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:11,800
of certain key institutions, the commanding heights. The Department of

832
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,920
Education employs an awful lot of people. It's educating eight

833
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,039
hundred thousand plus students. You know, that's going to be

834
00:43:18,039 --> 00:43:21,000
something very important when you have a grand ideological project

835
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,400
with the NYPD. I'm not sure exactly where they're going

836
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,800
to land, but there are a few different places when

837
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,599
the kind of people who are the people that you

838
00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:32,719
know that I think of a civil terrorist in the streets,

839
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,639
people who claim to be protesting but who are in

840
00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:38,800
fact intimidating and engaging in you know, basically manipulating the

841
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:43,679
fact that we are now not enforcing various laws, you know,

842
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,760
to create menacing protests. When those people feel as though

843
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,480
they have an ally in city hall, well maybe they

844
00:43:49,519 --> 00:43:52,239
behave differently, right, maybe you know, kind of this is

845
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,280
going to be really interesting and complex because it could

846
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,719
be that he's a total imbecile and that he you know,

847
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,840
there's going to be a crisis day one and this

848
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,239
streets are going to be you know, a flame, and

849
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,559
then you know, kind of that's that. Another possibility is

850
00:44:05,599 --> 00:44:08,599
that the city is already you know, it's already a

851
00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:11,719
slow burn, it's already a death by a thousand cuts,

852
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,639
in which you basically are driving out private capital. Okay,

853
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,840
you know you're driving out you know the kind of

854
00:44:18,159 --> 00:44:20,880
working class, middle class moderates. Okay, you're trying to kind

855
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,840
of like raise the temperature to do that. It's the

856
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,079
curly effect that doesn't necessarily hurt you if what you're

857
00:44:27,079 --> 00:44:30,000
looking to is consolidate power over a city government that

858
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,440
has three hundred thousand employees. So you know, there are

859
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,320
many different ways this can play out. But I uh,

860
00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:39,599
and by the way, what where I thought you were

861
00:44:39,639 --> 00:44:42,679
going is that you can imagine. I think you can

862
00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:45,519
imagine a spirited Eric Adams campaign, and we can talk

863
00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:48,039
a bit about that. But I think that you know,

864
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,719
you can call it. You know, is Momdani the odds

865
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,239
on favorite? Of course he is. But I also think that,

866
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,719
you know, we should learn from having seen crazy things

867
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,880
happen that other crazy things can happen too.

868
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:00,159
Speaker 5: Well.

869
00:45:00,199 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: If Trump gets the economy back on its feet and

870
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,679
everything comes along and industry is resure like General Electric

871
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:07,960
announcing they were going to do today, then people will

872
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:09,760
feel in twenty twenty eight as though they have the

873
00:45:10,639 --> 00:45:13,599
permission to indulge in luxury beliefs because things are going someway.

874
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,199
Or if everything is cratered by twenty twenty eight, then

875
00:45:16,199 --> 00:45:18,599
they'll think, well, we have no other choice. Let's give

876
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,760
repudiation of capitalism to try and see how that goes.

877
00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:24,559
So yeah, who knows, and it will be interesting. I

878
00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:26,599
do know this. I am. As I said at the

879
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:29,280
beginning of this. I love Manhattan. I wanted to thrive.

880
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,360
You know, However, if he crashes the office market, it's

881
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,079
entirely possible that they will not build the Commodore tower,

882
00:45:37,159 --> 00:45:40,440
which means that it won't overshadow the Chrysler building, which

883
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,960
is something that I worry about. And why I worry

884
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,079
about that sitting here in Minneapolis, I don't know, only

885
00:45:45,119 --> 00:45:46,559
that I sort of want to be able to go

886
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:49,280
there and see that magnificent inspire from every angle, and

887
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,599
I'll be blocked out by Commodore. And I hate the

888
00:45:51,599 --> 00:45:54,119
new JP Morgan building. I gotta say, what do you think?

889
00:45:55,599 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 4: You know?

890
00:45:56,079 --> 00:46:00,559
Speaker 2: I just love capital investment, I love and employers who

891
00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:02,800
want to create jobs in New York City. Yep. And

892
00:46:03,119 --> 00:46:05,039
you know that's that's where I.

893
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: Stand, all right, from an esthetic standpoint, we will have

894
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,599
to well, you know, we'll see, but yes, no, I

895
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,440
love the commitment that it represents, just like all the

896
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,360
rest of it. And will New York be still standing

897
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:16,960
in two or three.

898
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:17,679
Speaker 4: Years, of course it will.

899
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:19,039
Speaker 1: Will it be as interesting a place?

900
00:46:19,079 --> 00:46:21,599
Speaker 4: Well, we'll talk to you again then about that.

901
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: We thank you for joining today. We'll have you on

902
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,199
to talk about the book, which we didn't get around to.

903
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,519
But melting pot or civil war seems to be the

904
00:46:28,599 --> 00:46:32,519
question that's in front of everybody these days. So give

905
00:46:32,559 --> 00:46:34,000
that a pickup, and you can read his writing in

906
00:46:34,039 --> 00:46:35,679
the Atlantic and National Affairs as well.

907
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,639
Speaker 4: Ryan sol I'm thank you for joining us today.

908
00:46:37,679 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: Thanks guys, And we didn't get it. We didn't get

909
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,119
in the book. Hey, excuse me for interrupting here for

910
00:46:42,119 --> 00:46:43,760
a second, but you know, we're talking about the effects

911
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,039
of all these things on business. Maybe you got one,

912
00:46:46,119 --> 00:46:49,079
and maybe you started your business because it was your passion.

913
00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:51,440
I'm talking to you listening to this saying, hey, yeah

914
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,119
that's me. I started a business. I was passionate about it.

915
00:46:54,159 --> 00:46:57,760
But you know what, maybe you fell into HR hell

916
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,840
as your business got going. No, nobody's an expert in

917
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,039
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918
00:47:03,079 --> 00:47:05,639
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919
00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:07,679
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920
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,079
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921
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922
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923
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924
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925
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926
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927
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928
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929
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931
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932
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933
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934
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943
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sponsoring this the Ricochet Podcast. Well, it's been a consequential week.

944
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,480
What else can we talk about? Anything happened in any

945
00:48:32,559 --> 00:48:38,079
place else? I think we sent a plane that dropped

946
00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:40,719
the something on a manhole and then sent five precision

947
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:45,039
guidance venitions after it. And well, if you, of course

948
00:48:45,159 --> 00:48:48,760
listen to what CNN was telling us, low impact didn't

949
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:50,440
really do anything, set them back about a day and

950
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,519
a half. Steven Charles, your thoughts on the ear on strike.

951
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,639
Speaker 4: Wait, wait, James, did you just say manhole?

952
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 5: I mean it's there, please the personnel access covers.

953
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: Now, Ah, you're right here. I'm using gendered language again.

954
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,360
That was what an old style guy.

955
00:49:07,159 --> 00:49:10,039
Speaker 5: I still call him that too. No, well, look, I

956
00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:12,719
don't really have anything. I don't know, either original or

957
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:14,280
consequential to say.

958
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 4: I'm pleased that we.

959
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: And that has stopped us all, that has stopped us

960
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,440
all when exactly here.

961
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 5: Exactly right? Yeah, yeah, I mean I have to say that. Well,

962
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,599
first of all, a general comment that may upset Charlie

963
00:49:26,639 --> 00:49:29,920
a little bit. The whole progress of Trump so far

964
00:49:30,159 --> 00:49:33,320
seems to be reminding me, you're giving off an eighties feel,

965
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,239
you know, when Reagan came in and things just started

966
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,360
going well. And there are some parallels including, you know,

967
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,840
when the Israelis bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor in what

968
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,280
June of nineteen eighty one and upset everybody, but privately

969
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,119
everyone was saying it was great. But here we now

970
00:49:47,199 --> 00:49:51,280
know that Trump practiced active deception in several ways.

971
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,159
Speaker 4: Right. You know, we said, well, I'm going to wait two.

972
00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:55,079
Speaker 5: Weeks to make a decision, when in fact the decision

973
00:49:55,119 --> 00:49:59,039
had already been made, and the news has come out

974
00:49:59,079 --> 00:50:00,599
late in the week that there was a lot more

975
00:50:00,639 --> 00:50:03,679
coordination between Trump and net and Yahoo, and a lot

976
00:50:03,679 --> 00:50:06,519
of deliberate misinformation fed out to the media to mislead

977
00:50:06,519 --> 00:50:09,599
the Iranians. Topped all top with the fact that we

978
00:50:09,679 --> 00:50:12,440
sent a whole lot of planes or conspicuously toward Guam,

979
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,280
which was thought to have been an effort to mislead

980
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,599
the Iranians, but I think might have had the secondary

981
00:50:18,599 --> 00:50:20,880
purpose of telling the Chinese, you know what, we're paying

982
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,000
attention to your increased harassment of Taiwan and the Philippines.

983
00:50:24,039 --> 00:50:26,199
So I don't know, Trump seems to me to be

984
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,400
dealing from a load of aces these days. And then

985
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,599
you know, lay here in the week NATO members say, okay, well,

986
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:38,320
increased defense spending to five percent of GDP, and another

987
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,440
headline that, oh, European country is saying what tariffs and

988
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,199
barriers can we give up and trade with the United

989
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:46,280
States to please Trump?

990
00:50:46,679 --> 00:50:48,119
Speaker 4: That looks to me like a guy who's on a

991
00:50:48,199 --> 00:50:50,280
roll morning in America.

992
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: The strike with the strike with the equivalent of the

993
00:50:54,199 --> 00:50:57,360
Granada invasion. And I don't say that lightly. That was

994
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,320
just one of those things that said, hey, we actually

995
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,079
can do something like this without crashing all our helicopters

996
00:51:02,079 --> 00:51:06,920
in the desert and the faint towards Guam is you noted,

997
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,800
may indeed have been a reminder, nice little three gorgeous

998
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,239
damn you have there if anything happened to it, which

999
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:14,719
of course I don't think we would do, because the

1000
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,440
loss of life would be absolutely fantastic. But you never know,

1001
00:51:18,559 --> 00:51:21,000
you never know, Charles, You thought.

1002
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 4: Why would that upset me, Steve? Oh, only because I know.

1003
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 5: You you're disdained for Trump is transparent and well worn,

1004
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:31,360
well argued.

1005
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,639
Speaker 4: I respect it, but in.

1006
00:51:34,559 --> 00:51:38,519
Speaker 6: Many quarters, sure, but I think I'm fair minded in

1007
00:51:38,559 --> 00:51:41,239
evaluating what he does, and I think what he did

1008
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:42,400
here was good.

1009
00:51:42,519 --> 00:51:43,599
Speaker 4: I am of the view.

1010
00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 6: That Congress is necessary, but that's a view that takes

1011
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,559
issue with seventy five years of American president all with Trump.

1012
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,960
Trump did nothing here that wouldn't have been done by

1013
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,679
Obamba or Bill Clinton or Harry Truman. This was a

1014
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:02,719
good decision I thought was well executed. I'm interested to

1015
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,320
see what happens next. I'd love to know who is

1016
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,519
right in the international community and their evaluation of how

1017
00:52:08,599 --> 00:52:11,599
much damage this did. But at the very least, it

1018
00:52:11,679 --> 00:52:14,719
seems that this is set back the program by months,

1019
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,199
if not years, and given that we were in the

1020
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:22,880
middle of a conflict that Israel began, justifiably, I think

1021
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,639
it was correct of the United States to piggyback and

1022
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,960
make sure that all three of the facilities were set

1023
00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:36,800
back or hopefully completely destroyed. This is, you know, something

1024
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:38,800
we would not have got under President Harris, and we

1025
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:39,719
should acknowledge that.

1026
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,280
Speaker 1: No, but it's interesting that people are saying that President

1027
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,880
Trump is all of his disinformation and lying in two

1028
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,239
weeks and the rest of it has lost credibility. Now

1029
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,840
nobody can really believe what he says, which is just

1030
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,519
a sort of reflexive anti Trump nonsense you hear from

1031
00:52:53,559 --> 00:52:55,880
time to time. I mean, I've been on this podcast

1032
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,639
many a year, and it's no secret that I have

1033
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,840
different opinions on the man and his character and the

1034
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:02,360
rest of it. But it doesn't matter in the end.

1035
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,960
What matters are the actions, and what matters are the

1036
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:10,920
consequences of the actions. And I thought this was just great.

1037
00:53:11,199 --> 00:53:14,880
I mean, the display of American power and precision is

1038
00:53:15,159 --> 00:53:20,159
awe inspiring, you know. And people equate this somehow with

1039
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,400
as though we'd loaded everything up and attacked a Tehran

1040
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,760
daycare center. I mean, this is a very specific application

1041
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,480
of American morals as well as anything else, and that

1042
00:53:29,519 --> 00:53:32,079
appalls people who say, why just you know, Israel can

1043
00:53:32,199 --> 00:53:35,559
have nukes but Iran kent. Yes, that's absolutely true. That's

1044
00:53:35,639 --> 00:53:39,000
absolutely the way it works the country is that it

1045
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:43,000
is a liberal democracy that grants free rights to all

1046
00:53:43,039 --> 00:53:45,159
sorts of people, regardless.

1047
00:53:44,559 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 4: Of their ethnicity.

1048
00:53:45,559 --> 00:53:51,159
Speaker 1: That is a tech superpower that is remarkable in its ingenuity. Yes,

1049
00:53:51,559 --> 00:53:54,280
those people who pose no threat to the Western civilization,

1050
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:55,840
they get to have nukes.

1051
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,199
Speaker 4: And these guys over.

1052
00:53:57,039 --> 00:53:59,079
Speaker 1: Here, a few of whom believe that the twelfth the

1053
00:53:59,079 --> 00:54:00,760
mom is going to clamber out of a well at

1054
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,480
some point and caused the infidels to go up and smoke.

1055
00:54:03,639 --> 00:54:05,599
Speaker 4: They do not, I don't know.

1056
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 6: Wrong, it doesn't past the background check. Progressive instinctive, they

1057
00:54:10,519 --> 00:54:14,079
understand this. Israel and Iran both went through a background

1058
00:54:14,159 --> 00:54:17,280
check for these weapons, and Israel passed and Iran failed.

1059
00:54:17,519 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: That's a very good point because somebody who on TikTok

1060
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,760
was saying, so, I don't know why the conservatives are

1061
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,760
so upset, really, I mean, it's not you know, guns

1062
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,400
don't kill people. People kill people, so you know, nuclear

1063
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:28,519
weapons don't kill people.

1064
00:54:28,559 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 4: It's like, you know it.

1065
00:54:29,679 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: Well, yes, I mean, in a sense that's exactly what

1066
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,800
we're saying, is that these are not the people that

1067
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,679
you want toss in AR fifteen too. So there's that apparently, though.

1068
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,119
I mean the native thing is interesting as well. But

1069
00:54:41,199 --> 00:54:44,119
it's also I think today when we're doing this is

1070
00:54:44,159 --> 00:54:48,000
the seventieth anniversary of America getting involved in the Korean War,

1071
00:54:48,119 --> 00:54:50,159
and I always cast my mind back to that and

1072
00:54:50,199 --> 00:54:54,480
think of the people who were still remembering the bruising

1073
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,760
conflict of World War Two and the thought of getting

1074
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,719
into another and the thought of it being as attracted

1075
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:04,599
as it was. But yet the only lasting cultural impact

1076
00:55:04,599 --> 00:55:07,360
that it seems to have given us is Mash, which is,

1077
00:55:08,039 --> 00:55:11,519
you know, basically a Vietnam parable. He doesn't occupy the

1078
00:55:11,519 --> 00:55:14,159
same sort of space in the American imagination that Vietnam

1079
00:55:14,639 --> 00:55:15,760
or World War Two is.

1080
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 4: Why do you think that is?

1081
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,679
Speaker 5: Well, I'll give you a couple of theories, partly reflecting

1082
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,119
what my dad used to talk about in the Korean War,

1083
00:55:23,159 --> 00:55:25,360
which he was called up for out of the Navy reserves,

1084
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,320
having fought throughout the entirety of World War Two in

1085
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,639
the Navy, and he stayed in the reserves because a

1086
00:55:30,679 --> 00:55:32,840
lot of people that coming out of World War Two,

1087
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,159
when their formal service ended, you know, it was one

1088
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,480
hundred bucks a month, whatever it paid. And my dad

1089
00:55:37,519 --> 00:55:39,519
was a flyer, so it was a chance for him

1090
00:55:39,559 --> 00:55:41,960
to keep his flying current when he was a person

1091
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:43,679
with you know, no means at that time, and so

1092
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,679
it was nice to be able to fly on Uncle

1093
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,840
Sam's dime. But he said that when suddenly the war

1094
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,239
started and they called up the reserves to send to Korea,

1095
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,519
a whole lot of the reserves said, hey, wait a minute,

1096
00:55:53,679 --> 00:55:56,320
we didn't think this meant going back to war, right,

1097
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,079
and there was a lot of people trying to get

1098
00:55:58,119 --> 00:55:59,800
out of it and so forth. Anyway, my dad went

1099
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:04,159
and began in Korea, and I think that you had

1100
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,920
going for them then. Was you hinted to this, James?

1101
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,840
There was the recollection that you know, we did pretty

1102
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,000
well in World War Two. It was long and difficult,

1103
00:56:12,079 --> 00:56:14,360
but we won that, and so we had the track

1104
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,559
record you might say, of winning conflicts, and you know,

1105
00:56:17,639 --> 00:56:20,960
Korea became very unpopular by degrees, to the point where

1106
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,559
I think Truman's approval rating in fifty two, which is

1107
00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:25,880
one reason he didn't stand for reelection, was something you know,

1108
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,079
in the high twenties or something dismal, and I think

1109
00:56:29,119 --> 00:56:29,960
the parallel here.

1110
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:31,559
Speaker 4: It's not perfect, it never is, but.

1111
00:56:31,639 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 5: You know, there's this lingering unhappiness on all sides about

1112
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,199
how badly things went, you know, fifteen twenty years ago

1113
00:56:39,199 --> 00:56:42,920
in Iraq and Afghanistan. And therefore you saw, you know,

1114
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:44,840
we talked about this once before a lot of our

1115
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,199
I guess i'll use the term paleocon friends like Dan

1116
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,760
McCarthy and others saying absolutely Trump cannot back Israel and

1117
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,840
get into this war in any fashion because it means

1118
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,480
regime change in twenty years of occupation of Tehran and

1119
00:56:57,519 --> 00:57:00,920
other nonsense like that, I think it's pretty clear that

1120
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,280
Trump has no intention of doing that, although he has

1121
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,599
teased the idea of regime change, which I think is

1122
00:57:05,639 --> 00:57:08,039
a more important question than how bad the damage is

1123
00:57:08,079 --> 00:57:10,960
to Ford out elsewhere. So I mean, I think that's

1124
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,360
I think the pendulum goes back and forth. Right, For

1125
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,519
the First Gulf War in nineteen ninety ninety one, we

1126
00:57:16,519 --> 00:57:19,599
were told that that finally ended the Vietnam syndrome, but

1127
00:57:19,639 --> 00:57:22,079
then the Vietnam syndrome came back ten years later with

1128
00:57:22,119 --> 00:57:23,679
the Iraqi Afghanistan syndrome.

1129
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,119
Speaker 4: So you know, here we are.

1130
00:57:25,199 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 5: I think the lasting effects of this will be good,

1131
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,119
although that you know, depends on events as always.

1132
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:35,159
Speaker 1: Well, with Afghanistan and Iraq, we won. We just hung

1133
00:57:35,199 --> 00:57:37,760
around and did skid things. I mean, we want that

1134
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,079
wasn't a case of protracted a year after year slog

1135
00:57:40,119 --> 00:57:45,039
after slog. Afghanistan was a fairly fairly fast walkover, and Iraq.

1136
00:57:44,719 --> 00:57:46,159
Speaker 4: Too as well.

1137
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 1: Of course, the whole pacification and depatification and the rest

1138
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:50,599
of that stuff's a little bit more complicated with that's

1139
00:57:50,599 --> 00:57:52,760
another podcast, Charles, anything else you want to tell.

1140
00:57:52,679 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 4: Us before we go out?

1141
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: Is there a British equivalent to the Korean experience in

1142
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:58,599
this century?

1143
00:58:00,719 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1144
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:07,039
Speaker 6: The British famously stayed out to Vietnam, which gave British

1145
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:13,440
people and military personnel and eighties a different view of war.

1146
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:20,639
But the British have the same political trauma over the

1147
00:58:20,679 --> 00:58:24,199
Second Iraq War that the Americans have, and so they've

1148
00:58:24,239 --> 00:58:25,440
been brought into line.

1149
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:25,719
Speaker 4: Now.

1150
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,719
Speaker 1: Well, that is true, but as we know, things change,

1151
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:34,320
minds are focused elsewhere quickly, and we'll see what the

1152
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:36,400
rest of the year has to go, he says, obviously

1153
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,079
wrapping things up. We'd like to thank Cozy earth Boy.

1154
00:58:39,159 --> 00:58:41,320
We would, and we'd like to thank Bamboo Hr as well.

1155
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:43,480
Responsoring this show, you can do yourself a favor by

1156
00:58:43,559 --> 00:58:46,280
availing yourself with their fine products and making your life better, easy,

1157
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,719
and more comfortable than all those things. You also might

1158
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:51,480
want to go, Oh, I'm not even to say it,

1159
00:58:51,599 --> 00:58:53,559
Why do I even bother? I was going to tell

1160
00:58:53,559 --> 00:58:55,039
you to go to Apple Podcasts or any of the

1161
00:58:55,039 --> 00:58:56,920
place where you can possibly rate a podcast and give

1162
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:58,760
us five stars, but I'm so tired of telling you,

1163
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:00,760
I'm not going to tell you to do that, because well,

1164
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:03,159
if you did, you know, would surface the show a

1165
00:59:03,159 --> 00:59:05,960
little bit more, get us some more subscribers, and perhaps

1166
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:08,440
get people to go over to ricochet dot com and

1167
00:59:08,519 --> 00:59:11,360
see exactly where this stuff comes from. And if they

1168
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:13,559
did that, they would find not only a front page

1169
00:59:13,559 --> 00:59:16,239
that is bursting with interesting pieces, but a member site,

1170
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,840
a member page that you've got to pay a couple

1171
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,079
of you know, shiny quarters to get to. But that's

1172
00:59:21,079 --> 00:59:23,480
where a community has been formed. That is the thing

1173
00:59:23,519 --> 00:59:24,960
you've been looking for all your.

1174
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:25,719
Speaker 4: Days on the web.

1175
00:59:25,719 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: Forget Facebook, forget your Twitter, forget your Bumble, forget your

1176
00:59:28,719 --> 00:59:31,360
blue Sky. Go to ricochet dot com and sign up

1177
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:32,800
right now. But I'm not going to say any of

1178
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,039
that because I'm tired of it. I am not, however,

1179
00:59:35,079 --> 00:59:37,920
tired of talking Steven and Hayward. But it's Steven En

1180
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,360
Hayward and Charlie En Cook. But it's time. But it's

1181
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,280
time to go, and I've said too much. Thank you

1182
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,440
for listening, and we'll see everybody in the comments at

1183
00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:46,920
Ricochet four point zero.

1184
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 4: Bye bye