Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pegana Show.
Speaker 1: How are you doing today, Thomas.
Speaker 2: And well, thanks as always for hosting me on this
Speaker 2: fine day. Yeah it's another's day, so good fortune and
Speaker 2: long life till the mom's up too.
Speaker 1: Which mine was still around likewise, Yeah, all right, so
Speaker 1: this is long awaited. A lot of people have asked
Speaker 1: for this. I'm excited about this. Start talking about the
Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War. Just start going. I'll interrupt if I
Speaker 1: have any questions. Let me let me start off with
Speaker 1: an easy one. When was the first time you started
Speaker 1: looking at the Spanish Civil War?
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it was pretty early on, because
Speaker 2: it's something that was mythologized, rewatch. I remember when I
Speaker 2: was like a teenager in college age, you know, like
Speaker 2: in my late team's early twenties. There was this great
Speaker 2: mythology spun around the communist side, which is euphemistically referred
Speaker 2: to as like the Republican side. I mean that it's
Speaker 2: like the who was arming and equipping and providing nkvd
Speaker 2: UH functionaries to slaughter people behind the lines. It was
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union doing that. Okay, you weren't. They weren't
Speaker 2: fighting and create like twenty first century Sweden, not that
Speaker 2: would be any great shakes either, but you know then
Speaker 2: oh and you know, we there were some Russians there too,
Speaker 2: so that that didn't make any sense. And the you know,
Speaker 2: as I got into before, before consumer internet was a thing,
Speaker 2: you know, like I've said, you had to rely basically
Speaker 2: on the resources of your local library. And I was
Speaker 2: blessed in that regards. I live in Chicago, Land or
Speaker 2: stuff like the Institute for Historical Review and uh, the IHR.
Speaker 2: They they were always putting out stuff related to condor relegion. Okay,
Speaker 2: I mean in part because there's a lot of like
Speaker 2: aviation buff old guys like buying your stuff, I assume,
Speaker 2: but it's also guys like Mark Weber or whatever I
Speaker 2: guess he goes by, you know, and uh, and some
Speaker 2: a lot a lot of their kind of best contributors
Speaker 2: and editors they were. They were always coming back to
Speaker 2: the War in Spain, you know, the Battle in Spain,
Speaker 2: how that how that shaped you know, conceptual horizons strategically,
Speaker 2: and how it was really you know, kind of the
Speaker 2: precursor to everything that followed. And it was uh, you know,
Speaker 2: like I said, I I think it was Sleen who
Speaker 2: said that, you know, Stalingrad is where left and right
Speaker 2: had geliens met to set all their differences. That first
Speaker 2: time that happened was in Spain. Okay, even on their
Speaker 2: visioness side, though, there's misconceptions, like I I'm going to
Speaker 2: get into some of that today. Like David Irving is
Speaker 2: kind of even though people view him as this kind
Speaker 2: of like art revisionists, in a lot of ways, he's not.
Speaker 2: And I mean I think he's he's he's the historian
Speaker 2: of the Third Reich, and he's just like a great individual,
Speaker 2: but he's he mischaracterizes the political uh situation there uh
Speaker 2: relative to the combatants. And I'll get into what I
Speaker 2: mean by that, but I mean it was basically, my
Speaker 2: interest in the Spanish War was concomitant with you know,
Speaker 2: my interest in the Third Reich in the Second World
Speaker 2: of War, because I came to realize that these things
Speaker 2: were inextricably connected as well as you know, it's like
Speaker 2: why there's a number there's a lot of conflicts where
Speaker 2: people try to finesse the true nature of the combatants,
Speaker 2: you know, owing the ideological prejudices. Like I mean that
Speaker 2: that was in my own lifetime. I mean that that
Speaker 2: happened in you know, nicaragu when I'll sell it or
Speaker 2: that's what like our dear friend Dan, he's an expert
Speaker 2: on that. You know, he's been taking the oral histories
Speaker 2: of of a nationalist veterans, uh in all Salvador. You know.
Speaker 2: That's why I hosted him on the pot and I
Speaker 2: hope to again. But you know, so I pretty quickly
Speaker 2: realized that it was imperative the kind of deep dive
Speaker 2: into into the Spanish War, but also Spain. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of a tragic character to Spain, and Spain is
Speaker 2: really I mean despite the fact, or maybe because of
Speaker 2: the fact, I you know, and I'm not saying it
Speaker 2: does not a value loaded statement that you know, the
Speaker 2: Vatican is in Rome, like Spain, Spain kind of lived
Speaker 2: out in the most kind of sanguinary ways, you know,
Speaker 2: like uh, like the Catholic historical experience, you know, whether
Speaker 2: it was you know, the centuries along Riconquista against Islam,
Speaker 2: which like other Europeans unless you count you know, people
Speaker 2: in the Bulk in the in the Balkans like weren't
Speaker 2: dealing with that, you know, like and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: just the uh the relationship of the the clergy to
Speaker 2: the monarchy. But all so I mean again ironically, and
Speaker 2: we'll get into this too in a minute. The reason,
Speaker 2: Machiavelli you constantly invoked the example of Ferdinand and Isabella,
Speaker 2: it is because Spain, despite the fact that they despite
Speaker 2: the fact that they remain kind of feudal in like
Speaker 2: their sensibilities. You know, even until the the early twentieth century,
Speaker 2: Spain was the first truly kind of Westphalian national state,
Speaker 2: like before Westphalia, you know, where you had a truly
Speaker 2: absolute monarch and the and the borders of Spain were
Speaker 2: national borders, you know. It wasn't it wasn't a confederation
Speaker 2: of palladies, you know, where there was uh, you know
Speaker 2: where there was some lame duck you know, secular prime
Speaker 2: minister or chancellor, you know, kind of like holding the
Speaker 2: illusion together like it really was like an absolute monarchy
Speaker 2: of a national state, you know, and not as like
Speaker 2: a puppet of the Vatican or anything like that. So
Speaker 2: there's always like weird dichotomies. So it has got interested
Speaker 2: in like Spain like on its own terms, because like
Speaker 2: I you know, I'm a student of political theory, you know,
Speaker 2: when I isn't.
Speaker 1: There isn't there also the in the history of Spain,
Speaker 1: after you have the uprisings to kick the Moors out,
Speaker 1: Spain falls under much like Russia would later a few
Speaker 1: centuries of Jewish influence to the point where Spanish Spanish
Speaker 1: are being made slaves are being made slaves of Jewish masters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was definitely that, that was definitely a very
Speaker 2: real phenomenon, and that didn't happen in Western Europe. That
Speaker 2: happened like Poland was basically a huge like Jewish sleeve colony,
Speaker 2: like Ukraine wasn't it might opinion still is today. And
Speaker 2: I mean not just knowing metaphoral terms, in real terms,
Speaker 2: particularly if you particularly you know, if you count pornography,
Speaker 2: which is which is literally white slavery. I mean it's
Speaker 2: not a u fromism. That's accurate, which is why that's
Speaker 2: what it used to be called. But uh, in Western Europe,
Speaker 2: like corrupt as the French uh uh, the Republic was,
Speaker 2: you know, as regards you know, being in bed with
Speaker 2: uh with the Jewish users and other uh you know,
Speaker 2: another another, an other another powerful people who were you know,
Speaker 2: operating and hymically to the inimical to the national interest.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like out and out the domination you
Speaker 2: know of people's you know, like like not just socially
Speaker 2: but physically. Yeah, I mean Spain was ground zero for
Speaker 2: that kind of thing in a way that was alien
Speaker 2: to Western Europe. I evertis Western Europe, but so yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean it was it was kind of like this,
Speaker 2: It was kind of like this collision of like the
Speaker 2: ancient and the very modern and you know, stuff like that.
Speaker 2: But to your point, you know about uh about you know,
Speaker 2: Spaniards and Jews, that that's going to require like a
Speaker 2: dedicated deep dive because it's just like too big for
Speaker 2: me to and I don't want to just like shoot
Speaker 2: from the hip on it today because if the I
Speaker 2: I didn't I didn't like prepare any notes or anything
Speaker 2: or just like refreshment recollection. I know a lot about
Speaker 2: the topic, but I got to be able to say
Speaker 2: dates and things in a linear order, and like I
Speaker 2: can't do it on the top of my head. It's
Speaker 2: not a robot or a savant. But but yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean that's that's important, and that's also you know, I mean, uh,
Speaker 2: it's just an ongoing and like the term you know,
Speaker 2: moranos or mono, like I don't. Uh, I don't, I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't know what the correct pronunciation is. You know,
Speaker 2: he's the one, uh the Ferdinand demanded that, you know,
Speaker 2: like all all Jews convert and like accept Catholicism, you know,
Speaker 2: as the national religion. You know, which again it's you know,
Speaker 2: the ironically or perhaps not, you know, Spain became the
Speaker 2: first truly like national state. But the point is like
Speaker 2: that wasn't just stuff that was That wasn't just Fernan
Speaker 2: trying to kind of score points with the clergy or
Speaker 2: something like this. This was imperative in Spain in a
Speaker 2: way it was not other places, or maybe not. Maybe
Speaker 2: imperative is not there word. This was a measure that
Speaker 2: had a context in Spain that it did in other places,
Speaker 2: even where there was you know, bed blood across ethno
Speaker 2: sectarian lines of a way that was any way that
Speaker 2: was uh, very pronounced. But I want to do two
Speaker 2: things today. I wanted to get just kinda briefly into
Speaker 2: you know, sociological features of Spain that relate to you know,
Speaker 2: political development that became critical variables in the War of
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty six thirty nine. I also want to deal
Speaker 2: with some like misconceptions about fascism itself, and about what
Speaker 2: the perspectives were of a in Berlin and in Moscow,
Speaker 2: and and and how Hitler viewed the situation strategically, and
Speaker 2: how Stolid did because this is wildly taken out of
Speaker 2: context by every virtually everybody, including some people who are
Speaker 2: very studied revisionists and should know better. But you know
Speaker 2: that said, I'll uh, let me, let me just let
Speaker 2: close out this window. Basically I'm gonna start. It's gonna
Speaker 2: seem like I'm jumping around a bit, but I believe
Speaker 2: this is the best way to present it, especially because
Speaker 2: you know, I'm starting something that's familiar. And also this
Speaker 2: is kind of the framing device as you if if
Speaker 2: if if that makes sense? When did uh basically Hitler
Speaker 2: and the the inner kind of core, the third or
Speaker 2: eych you know that being gearing Gebels, you know, Uh Hitler,
Speaker 2: they first kind of became uh, they first kind of
Speaker 2: became aware of Spain and strategic terms. It was July
Speaker 2: twenty fifth, nineteen thirty six. It seems like something out
Speaker 2: of a movie, but Hitler was actually attending an opera
Speaker 2: I think at UH by Ruth or bay royth like
Speaker 2: I I'm sure I'm portraying that pronunciation. But literally, at
Speaker 2: the intermission of this opera, it Canarious approaches a Madmial Canaris,
Speaker 2: who was, you know, a very conspiratorial individual and a turncoat.
Speaker 2: I mean it's been proven, you know, many times over,
Speaker 2: but he was. He was chief of the ABVIA, you know,
Speaker 2: the foreign intelligence service. And Canarius was strange because in
Speaker 2: some ways he seemed to be acting, you know, at
Speaker 2: critical moments in the in the interest of the Third Reich.
Speaker 2: You know, other times he was you know, working as
Speaker 2: UH just as actively the sabotage, it's strategic ambitions, beaven
Speaker 2: its survival. But that's a that's a subject to itself.
Speaker 2: But Canaras had actually introduced m Yeah Hitler to Franco's
Speaker 2: people and UH. Canari's UH. He approached Hitler during the
Speaker 2: intermation of this opera, and he brought him an urgent
Speaker 2: UH telegram, which was an appeal from UH to a
Speaker 2: Franco's emissaries, you know, asking them for immedia, asking the
Speaker 2: Third Right for immediate assistance. Specifically, Franco needed to transport
Speaker 2: the Moroccan legions were sympathetic, you know, if the nationalist
Speaker 2: caused from UH North Africa to the Spanish mainland, you know,
Speaker 2: to rapidly reinforce, and Hillar convened daring Arhard Milche Albert Kesselring,
Speaker 2: who I made the point, you know, kessel Ring was
Speaker 2: finally his final command was, you know, the defense of Italy,
Speaker 2: and UH he was never his forces were never defeated,
Speaker 2: you know, they the war ended. So I mean, the
Speaker 2: the Wehrmacht and the Loofaffa just just went home, you
Speaker 2: know it. But kessel Ring at that time was was
Speaker 2: the LUFA the chief of staff Milch, who was an
Speaker 2: absolutely brilliant guy in all kinds of ways. UH and
Speaker 2: in an operational term, see, he was second to none.
Speaker 2: But all of and this will become relevant later, all
Speaker 2: three of them said, yes, we've got intervened. Now. Hitler
Speaker 2: UH authorized a full scale LUFAFA intervention. All the men
Speaker 2: hasn't said, We've got to be careful here, you know,
Speaker 2: we're very We've got to be very careful about you know,
Speaker 2: the signals we send to the Soviet Union, to the UK,
Speaker 2: to France. Okay, Ultimately, UH getting deployed a bomber squadron
Speaker 2: under U von rich Toffen who along with von Toma,
Speaker 2: who commanded the ground element and we'll get into that later.
Speaker 2: We're uh they were both you know, top Uh, they
Speaker 2: were both top commanders, and there's someone overlooked and people
Speaker 2: who like the rank that acts as the generals and
Speaker 2: what have you. But Hitler's view was that, you know,
Speaker 2: there was a need to test uh, you know, German
Speaker 2: combined arms, you know number one, you know, and familiarize
Speaker 2: h familiar eyes uh you know, both Aaron ground element
Speaker 2: forces with with these new technologies. Secondly, there needed to
Speaker 2: be you know, the younger generation wasn't battle tested, you know,
Speaker 2: and there was that too. Garring's notion was, uh, Gearing
Speaker 2: at that time was still in charge of uh, you know,
Speaker 2: the the broad economic planning, you know, in a way
Speaker 2: that would later end up uh in the lap of disasters.
Speaker 2: He earned you that as well as Earhart and Mills,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of in a in a more limited way.
Speaker 2: And some would you know be uh you know conferred
Speaker 2: upon Albert Spear, you know, it was armaged minister. At
Speaker 2: this point. Garing was kinging of like the freer plans. Okay,
Speaker 2: Gearing coveted precious metals that Spain had stuff like tungsten
Speaker 2: stuff like copper. You know that that uh that he reasoned,
Speaker 2: uh could be bartered in direct exchange for military aid
Speaker 2: or you know, acquired fire sale prices. Okay a uh No,
Speaker 2: by all, a general war was underway in Spain. Okay,
Speaker 2: And at this point Milch kessel Ring Gerring said, we've
Speaker 2: got to be very careful about escaliefs unless we find
Speaker 2: ourselves in a general war with the Soviet Union. Okay.
Speaker 2: So this idea that the Soviet Union just you know,
Speaker 2: owing to socialism in one country. You know, the Soviets
Speaker 2: weren't really involved in Spain. Stalin was in Spain one
Speaker 2: hundred percent. He was in it to win it. On
Speaker 2: his side, he didn't want to yet provoke a war
Speaker 2: with the Third Reich. Okay. See, you've got something of
Speaker 2: a Mexican stand off beneath kind of you know, and
Speaker 2: an intended subterfuge. Okay. What Stalin meant by socialism in
Speaker 2: one country? You've got to understand the way the Russian
Speaker 2: Revolution developed, the way that Lenin envisioned the Bolshevik cause,
Speaker 2: you know, as a vanguard movement. The basic problem within
Speaker 2: kind of communist political theology, or rather the kind of
Speaker 2: conceptual view of you know, like the man doesn't make history,
Speaker 2: like history awaits you know, history gives man kind of
Speaker 2: the clarion call, you know. And you can't force revolutionary
Speaker 2: conditions too early. And uh, you know this idea that
Speaker 2: you know, one can just build quote build socialism in
Speaker 2: a backwards country like Russia, you know, and then you know,
Speaker 2: Russia can catch up to the rest of the world,
Speaker 2: you know, and then you know, when a general proletarian
Speaker 2: revolution starts, you know, sweeping the developed world, well Russia
Speaker 2: will be right there. I mean, this, this is this
Speaker 2: is not orthodox marcis Leninism. Okay, that's what Stalin was
Speaker 2: talking about. He wasn't saying, oh, I'm gonna glad hand
Speaker 2: with fascism because I don't want anyone to think I'm
Speaker 2: doing anything but looking inward. And you know, I'm not
Speaker 2: really a communist and I don't really have designs on
Speaker 2: Europe like that. This nonsense. Also at Base Spain was
Speaker 2: a political fight, Okay. Politics matters when you're dealing with
Speaker 2: a revolutionary fervor that is sweeping not just a key
Speaker 2: territory but literally the continent. Later during the Cold War,
Speaker 2: arguably the planet, but we're not there yet. The Third
Speaker 2: Reich had to go fight in Spain because Spain is
Speaker 2: where the Communists drew line. Okay, that was that that
Speaker 2: that that was eight hundred percent and vice versa. Like
Speaker 2: Stalin this Moscow, the Soviet Union and its entire claimed
Speaker 2: the mantle of you know, global leadership of the proletariat.
Speaker 2: That that would have totally evaporated. You know, if if
Speaker 2: if Stalin had not you know, set the communists whatever
Speaker 2: they needed to win, Okay, But at the same time,
Speaker 2: abiding the need, you know, to keep up appearances. You know,
Speaker 2: it's even more important to keep up appearances as you know,
Speaker 2: when when when when you're undermining you know, what you
Speaker 2: report to be your own commitment to peace and and
Speaker 2: and aversion to escalation. I mean when it Boss tweets,
Speaker 2: the appearance of the law is fundamental, like especially when
Speaker 2: it's being broken. I mean it's this shouldn't come as
Speaker 2: a this shouldn't seem like outlandish anybody, Okay, But that's
Speaker 2: that's that's uh, you know that that's there's there's so
Speaker 2: much dishonesty around the issue. That's why I emphasize that
Speaker 2: a lot of people point to Hitler made a statement,
Speaker 2: and I think you can find this in table talk,
Speaker 2: but I found citations and Irving. I found a citation
Speaker 2: and Irving's The war Path also in uh after in
Speaker 2: early in November December thirty seven, it's about a year
Speaker 2: Onward Hitler. Uh. Hitler had told Ribbon Trops chief of
Speaker 2: staff or his secretary that, uh, you know, like something
Speaker 2: that something effected, like an outright victory of Franco. You know,
Speaker 2: we actually might live to regret that because the guy
Speaker 2: is such a bastard, you know, ha ha. But he
Speaker 2: also said, you know, our interest is first and foremost
Speaker 2: is preventing a Communist victory, but also to maintaining maintaining
Speaker 2: existing tensions in the Mediterranean. You know, if uh, if
Speaker 2: the UK was being uh you know, it's weighed and
Speaker 2: out of the medicine, you know, uh. But also like
Speaker 2: you know, the Spanish, you know, essentially preventing like neutralizing
Speaker 2: the strategic benefit of the Strait of Gibraltar to the UK.
Speaker 2: There that that give Germany tremendous power, you know, not
Speaker 2: just in terms of the fact that well you know,
Speaker 2: the real name the Royal Navy would then you know,
Speaker 2: be at war in a in a te theater, but
Speaker 2: it would give Berlin, you know, bargaining power with respect
Speaker 2: to London. And at that point, obviously, you know, Hillar
Speaker 2: didn't view the UK as an enemy, you know. So
Speaker 2: the fact that Hillar would lament the fact that Franco
Speaker 2: is a bastard, he's a terrible ally, he's impossible to
Speaker 2: work with, you know, the fact that he would say,
Speaker 2: in a perfect world, you know, there'd be a guy
Speaker 2: who was more malleable, you know, in Madrid or fighting
Speaker 2: to take Madrid. But also you know, in a perfect world,
Speaker 2: you know, we'd be able to kind of keep keep
Speaker 2: keep the Royal Navy forever tied down, you know, by
Speaker 2: some kind of friendly regime on the Iberian Peninsula. Like
Speaker 2: that's not that doesn't that doesn't amount to some statement,
Speaker 2: like some literal statement of you know, gee, we made
Speaker 2: a mistake to back Franco. I mean, it's people have
Speaker 2: a real problem with literalist thinking in these days, but
Speaker 2: that they had aside, it's one of the things that arguably,
Speaker 2: when I say arguably, I don't mean, uh, I don't
Speaker 2: mean in my perspective, but you know, again, people who
Speaker 2: view the war in Spain is just kind of this
Speaker 2: like isolated occurrence where you know, the communists support for
Speaker 2: a you know, for the for the Republicans as they're called,
Speaker 2: was was just some kind of token, perfunctory gesture or
Speaker 2: that you know, the Third Reich wasn't really committed to it,
Speaker 2: you know, other than you know, for the very limited
Speaker 2: purpose of uh of of you know, cutting the combat
Speaker 2: teeth at Vermont. There really was a cross border momentum
Speaker 2: developing behind parties of the right. Okay, no, there was
Speaker 2: not a fascist International, but that would have been self
Speaker 2: defeating and all. So that's not got of the the
Speaker 2: claimed legitimacy that these rightist movements had didn't entail you know,
Speaker 2: some uh, some kind of bureaucratic party apparatus, you know,
Speaker 2: with an armed element, you know, that had some kind
Speaker 2: of like you know, abstract theory of history that sort
Speaker 2: of rationalized you know, uh, its existence. I mean, his
Speaker 2: entire claim was, you know, something primordial, perennial and based
Speaker 2: in you know, the uh, the mysteries of cultural and
Speaker 2: racial origins. Okay, to anyone who thinks that there was
Speaker 2: not you know, a zeitgeist that was facilitating the war
Speaker 2: in Spain. On both sides, the funeral of two men
Speaker 2: who died on the same day and whose funerals were
Speaker 2: held in kind in January. The team nineteen thirty seven
Speaker 2: to Romanian Nationals the name of Vassil or Vassil, Vassili
Speaker 2: Marine and Iron Mota. Ion Mota was Coachoriano's number two
Speaker 2: in the Iron Guard. They'd they traveled to Spain, initially
Speaker 2: with an Iron Guard delegation to present a Toledo sword
Speaker 2: to one of the Franco's generals. They ended up joining UH,
Speaker 2: the Nationalist side, and they were killed in action, and
Speaker 2: this became a rallying cry across Europe. It UH. These
Speaker 2: guys were reviewed as holy warriors in a in a
Speaker 2: Christian jahad against communism, you know, against UH, against against
Speaker 2: Jewish aggression and all the iterations. Yeah, against atheism, you know,
Speaker 2: all these things. That their bodies were interred or were
Speaker 2: on their way to interment. We're put in a mortuary train.
Speaker 2: It left Spain, it traveled through France and Belgium and
Speaker 2: reached Berlin in February. And everywhere they stopped they were
Speaker 2: met by you know, s s and s amen and
Speaker 2: national As Soldist party officials delgates to the Spanish falange. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, guys formal representatives of the Fascist Party in
Speaker 2: Italy obviously, you know, a huge iron guard contingent, you know,
Speaker 2: men from the action in France. Ay, this funeral train
Speaker 2: literally did an entire tour of Europe and uh was
Speaker 2: greeted by throngs of onlookers giving it the Romans loot. Okay,
Speaker 2: So I can think of nothing comparable in in in
Speaker 2: in the communist world before or after nineteen forty five.
Speaker 2: You know, I can think of thing. I can think
Speaker 2: of people who the Communists tried to glom onto, like
Speaker 2: Bobby Sands, which was very misguided because Sands certainly wasn't
Speaker 2: one of them. There are people like from the popular
Speaker 2: frent Liberation of Palestine, you know, years after the fact,
Speaker 2: they show up, uh, you know wearing uh, wearing Shay
Speaker 2: Rivera badges and stuff. Before it became like an idiot
Speaker 2: hipster thing in like the two thousands, it was. Uh,
Speaker 2: It's ironic because of like the the PFLP General Command
Speaker 2: and people like that. Would you know what would employ
Speaker 2: his visage. But there's nothing comparable. You know, this, This
Speaker 2: really was like a holy war of the right against
Speaker 2: you know, against what they perceived this jewelry against communism,
Speaker 2: you know, against against uh you know again against godless capital.
Speaker 2: That was uh, you know, that was that was that
Speaker 2: was supporting both those elements, you know, and that's why
Speaker 2: these fools who you know from the UK and and
Speaker 2: from the USA, like you know, I was, you know,
Speaker 2: there were people say like they were fighting, you know,
Speaker 2: for for freedom against tyranny. It's like, no, you were fighting.
Speaker 2: You were fighting alongside the Soviet Union and you're fighting
Speaker 2: as a Soviet Union as most brutal zenith, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, So you can't it's not your alibi,
Speaker 2: I think most important of ignorance, but it's you know,
Speaker 2: it has got to be said. And on the other
Speaker 2: side of it, I know, we got into this quite
Speaker 2: a bit. We were doing our Second World War series,
Speaker 2: but it uh as the UH, the the dictates that
Speaker 2: Stalin was uh issuing to the General Staff of the
Speaker 2: Red Army and the directives he was handing to the
Speaker 2: to the main what's called the Main Administration, main administration
Speaker 2: for political propaganda in the Soviet Army. You know, we
Speaker 2: got into some of these things, but they these all
Speaker 2: you know, on the eve of of war in May
Speaker 2: nineteen forty one, they were incessantly referencing the Spanish War,
Speaker 2: and you know, the UH like a literal quote from
Speaker 2: U from Army Commissar first rank Zaporos. That's I can't
Speaker 2: pronounce these like Georgian and Moldovan and Russian names, but
Speaker 2: his uh, he quoted uh Stalin is saying, literally, the
Speaker 2: situation is developing. Due to the situation is developing, we
Speaker 2: are compelled, in duty bound to take the initiative and
Speaker 2: dealing the first blow, beginning the war of attack with
Speaker 2: the objective of expanding the borders of socialism. You know.
Speaker 2: Quote the leader made it unmistakably clear that war is
Speaker 2: inevitable in the future. We must be prepared to the
Speaker 2: complete smashing of German fascism. I mean this, this goes
Speaker 2: on and on and on, you know. Like I said,
Speaker 2: we we got into this in depth before in our
Speaker 2: you know, earlier series. But it's and I'm sure some
Speaker 2: people will say that, like I rely too much at
Speaker 2: direct testimony and things, But if you're talking about intent,
Speaker 2: and you're trying to you're trying to piece together intent,
Speaker 2: particularly of at scale, you know, you're talking about you know,
Speaker 2: command authorities, in a state that ended up at war,
Speaker 2: you know, months or years subsequent to the statement. You've
Speaker 2: got to take those things basically at face value, you know,
Speaker 2: because number one, like who who what audience would they
Speaker 2: be speaking for? You know, these these these are the
Speaker 2: notes that were found later in some cases after the
Speaker 2: you know, decades later, at the opening of the Soviet archives,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's you're you're talking like like mer
Speaker 2: Smmer said, you know, if you're a general preparing for war,
Speaker 2: particularly in a system like the Soviet Union, where you know,
Speaker 2: there was a kind of totalitarian accountability where and and
Speaker 2: and and at that at the level of these these
Speaker 2: apparatrics in generals, they were constantly under surveillance and and
Speaker 2: misspeaking could cost you your life, you know, Like I
Speaker 2: there's a basic honesty to that that you can rely
Speaker 2: on in kind of absolute terms, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: what they say might be clouded by ideology, it might
Speaker 2: be misguided, but the idea that what amounts to these
Speaker 2: uh eyes only statements from Stalin, you know, to his
Speaker 2: political commissars, within the general, within the within within the
Speaker 2: what amounts the general staff of the Red Army that oh,
Speaker 2: they were just saying these things to give an appearance
Speaker 2: of preparateness and and keep the Germans on their toes,
Speaker 2: Like how how would the Germans even know of that?
Speaker 2: You know, like it's I mean, I realize them preaching
Speaker 2: to the choir here, but that's that's important. And you know,
Speaker 2: the before UH, before ninety thirty nine, the last general
Speaker 2: deployment of UH of Soviet forces was was in Spain.
Speaker 2: And granted, like they didn't have an infantry element there.
Speaker 2: They had the end k v D on the ground,
Speaker 2: but they had you know, but they were there in
Speaker 2: substantial numbers number one. And also, I mean Soviet weapons
Speaker 2: were all over the battle theater, you know, So when
Speaker 2: they're referencing, when they're making when stalin is is is
Speaker 2: issuing edicts, you know about you know, the future war,
Speaker 2: which obviously he's talking about the Third Reich, you know,
Speaker 2: and when he's justscussing, when he's discussing tactical matters, identifying
Speaker 2: what he's used as like strong points and weak points,
Speaker 2: he's talking about the experience of Spain. Okay, I mean
Speaker 2: this that that can't be denied. Now back to Spain
Speaker 2: at long last, the war in Spain happened in Spain.
Speaker 2: Uh not accidentally, you know, and not uh, it's not uh,
Speaker 2: it's not a case of you know, revolutionary conditions owing
Speaker 2: to owing to some kind of you know, punctuating prices
Speaker 2: or ongoing emergency on the ground, you know, just kind
Speaker 2: of made it right for for radicalization. Spain didn't develop normally, okay,
Speaker 2: like we were talking before we went live, you know, uh,
Speaker 2: for centuries, uh, Spain was uh what was what was
Speaker 2: was occupied, like large areas of territory were were occupied
Speaker 2: by Mazlem elements. When that was finally defeated, the you know,
Speaker 2: I mean basically the uh the the intermittent war against
Speaker 2: against the the the Islamic Moors really began, I mean
Speaker 2: it was it was Viscoth warlords who began, you know,
Speaker 2: the reconquista in uh in like the seven hundreds, you know,
Speaker 2: and it like the territorial the territorial control of the
Speaker 2: Spaniards or the Moors, you know, like varied, depending uh
Speaker 2: on who had the upper hand in battlefield terms, as
Speaker 2: well as you know, who was forced to make political
Speaker 2: concessions at any given moment. But it can be viewed
Speaker 2: basically as you know, a centuries long process to liberate
Speaker 2: Spain from you know, from uh, from Heathen occupation, and
Speaker 2: it was finally realized by Ferdinand and Isabella in fourteen
Speaker 2: ninety two, which is a banner year. You know, it's
Speaker 2: Ferdinand and Isabella. Like we talked about a moment ago,
Speaker 2: I believe before Winna Lie. The irony is that Ferdinand.
Speaker 2: The reason why he was praised so effusively by Machiavelli
Speaker 2: and the Prince is that Ferdinand was in many ways
Speaker 2: like the first the first absolute monarch of a of
Speaker 2: a truly national state like Spain became a national state,
Speaker 2: you know, despite it's uh, even at that point, despite
Speaker 2: its backwardness. Okay, Now, Ferdinand had a remarkable mandate, and
Speaker 2: so would have subsequent monarchs had they, you know, had
Speaker 2: they been able to retain the coalition they get around him.
Speaker 2: But the uh that those successes, you know, were bought
Speaker 2: at a certain price. And if you're fighting in the
Speaker 2: centuries long Holy War against dar al Islam, the only
Speaker 2: way you can facilitate that is by giving the army
Speaker 2: basically unlimited access to the national coffers, and you got
Speaker 2: to insinuate the church into political affairs that otherwise would
Speaker 2: not be appropriate or constructive, and both of those things happened.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying bad things about the Roman Church at all.
Speaker 2: I'm saying this is reality. Okay. So the kind of
Speaker 2: prototype of U of state power in Spain was an
Speaker 2: absolute monarchy before it really happened anywhere else, sustained by
Speaker 2: a warrior aristocracy that it was beholden to, uh, a
Speaker 2: clergy that you know, had incredible power. You know. The
Speaker 2: thing is, though, like all this costs a tremendous amount
Speaker 2: of money, you know, and the solution during the Ricontista,
Speaker 2: particular in the later phases, it's like you gotta feed
Speaker 2: your army, like, okay, well, you know, we're gonna seize
Speaker 2: common land, you know, and uh, and we're gonna we're
Speaker 2: gonna you know, we're gonna put animals out the pasture there,
Speaker 2: you know, if we need like wool or you know,
Speaker 2: leather or anything else. You know, that's that's just what
Speaker 2: we're gonna do. You know. So it was kind of
Speaker 2: the it was kind of the fifteenth century equivalent of
Speaker 2: like imminent domain, you know, like being silly sounds like,
Speaker 2: but I'm not.
Speaker 1: And a lot of that land was not being used, Yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of that land was not being used at all.
Speaker 2: So no, but that and a lot of and a
Speaker 2: lot of these guys were happy to I mean they
Speaker 2: they wanted to purge Heathens from Spain, you know, for
Speaker 2: a lot more happy to allow access to it or
Speaker 2: to give it literally the crown. But the point is
Speaker 2: if you're if you're using it, you know, for commodities
Speaker 2: to feed and outfit the army, or you're using it,
Speaker 2: you know for this, like for this merino wool that's
Speaker 2: coveted you know, all through Europe so you can raise money,
Speaker 2: you know, so that you can put gold in the
Speaker 2: coffers of uh, you know, the sex and weapons developers
Speaker 2: that you need, you know, to fight the moors. Like
Speaker 2: nobody's nobody's using that land, you know, to to to
Speaker 2: build up uh, you know, to build up the Agraean economy,
Speaker 2: you know, and develop it and refine it and god willing,
Speaker 2: you know, create some career they generate on surplus X
Speaker 2: sport you know, like none of that is happening, you know,
Speaker 2: and it as uh as time went on, it created
Speaker 2: kind of a warfare state paradigm, you know, not in
Speaker 2: like a corrupt sense. Like now, what I mean is
Speaker 2: that you had this, you had this warrior aristocracy, which
Speaker 2: is like interstitially kind of bound up with the clergy
Speaker 2: who both relied on each other, you know, like not
Speaker 2: just for the sake of you know, the the optics
Speaker 2: of authority or something. You know, like if you're gonna
Speaker 2: if they were, if you're gonna wage a holy war,
Speaker 2: you better believe that, you know, the Roman Church better
Speaker 2: is going to war with you, you know, like on
Speaker 2: your side, and like their function is as important as
Speaker 2: you know, the men who wield the blade. I mean
Speaker 2: that this should be obvious, but we're not used to
Speaker 2: thinking that. We're not used to talking about Europeans fighting
Speaker 2: holy wars like in Europe. But you know, if you're
Speaker 2: gonna expect, if you're gonna expect peasants like give up
Speaker 2: land and give up like, you know, give up the
Speaker 2: certain security they have, you know, from that kind of tendency,
Speaker 2: and you're gonna expect like freeholders, you know, to give
Speaker 2: up what they own, you know, so that you know,
Speaker 2: these uh martial efforts, necessaries they may be, can can
Speaker 2: continue your luck with the situation where like nobles established
Speaker 2: a kind of becomes the order of the day. Okay,
Speaker 2: in a way it's not in in other societies, at
Speaker 2: least in Europe, like it becomes it takes on an
Speaker 2: outsized importance, is what I'm getting at, Okay, And that's
Speaker 2: exactly what happened, and that endured, you know, perpetually, like
Speaker 2: after after the Europeans like one Spain meck, you know,
Speaker 2: for for christiandom it uh be for me the point too.
Speaker 2: And Bebo's book is great because it's larded with facts
Speaker 2: and he makes some great points. He's got some conceptual prejudices,
Speaker 2: and but I rely on him a lot. He made
Speaker 2: the point that in the Middle Ages, from the Middle
Speaker 2: Ages until the end of the UH until the end
Speaker 2: of the eighteenth century, Spain lost something like half its population.
Speaker 2: You know. Some of that was just kind of like
Speaker 2: you know, the kind of uh yeah, you know, oh,
Speaker 2: changing patterns of fecunity and things. But part was because
Speaker 2: like Spain literally had to downsize because like it couldn't fee,
Speaker 2: it couldn't sustain the population that yone's had, you know,
Speaker 2: and you've got uh an empire that's rapidly growing, but
Speaker 2: its ability to feed its people is uh deterior reading
Speaker 2: I mean, at its height, the Spanish empire literally owned
Speaker 2: half the planet. Like people forget that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean even Spangler Spangler and like Pressianism
Speaker 1: and socialism is all about mid fifteen, sixteen hundred and
Speaker 1: seventeen hundred Spain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. So again
Speaker 2: it was, uh, it was, it was highly unusual. I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know if despite what people say, there's not
Speaker 2: there's not some there's not some template for empires developed,
Speaker 2: you know, Uh, I mean I realize it's mostly just
Speaker 2: like basic ass people saying like oh, history repeat itself.
Speaker 2: I mean, even even people are more sophisticated than that
Speaker 2: don't need to realize there's not there's not some like
Speaker 2: template or something. It's kind of like natural you know,
Speaker 2: developmental cycle. Other than other than I mean everything everything,
Speaker 2: everything dies at some point or comes to an end.
Speaker 2: That's not what I mean. I mean, I mean the
Speaker 2: concrete particulars you know of of how an empire requires
Speaker 2: its fortunes, you know, maintains it's a geminy and then ultimately,
Speaker 2: you know, loses its ability to to compete with its
Speaker 2: uh I don't compete with its enemy's order or to
Speaker 2: sustain its its own existence at scale. But this kind
Speaker 2: of warrior holy warrior ethos developed in Spain. But it
Speaker 2: was it's uh, it admits it. It came to exists
Speaker 2: among like a real kind of perennial destabilization. You know.
Speaker 2: It's Isabella like one of her one of her final
Speaker 2: kind of acts of state, like late in life. Dasis Narrows,
Speaker 2: who is uh this kind of legend. I mean you
Speaker 2: probably know this because I mean you're a kidlic guy
Speaker 2: and like a Latin dude. I don't know anything about
Speaker 2: since Narrows until like very recently. But he was he
Speaker 2: was like this kind of he was. He was he
Speaker 2: was like this pious friar. You know, he's kind of
Speaker 2: the guy who's credited. It was sort of a structuring
Speaker 2: of the Inquisition as it came to as it came
Speaker 2: to exist. And that's another thing that's grossing misunderstood by
Speaker 2: people kind of on both sides of the the political spectrum.
Speaker 2: We'll get into that too, but the uh, the uh.
Speaker 2: On the one hand, you had you had this kind
Speaker 2: of tendency towards revolt that was burgening in Spain, especially
Speaker 2: in some of these territories that you know had long
Speaker 2: been you know, like discreete principalities, you know, with with
Speaker 2: kind of unique cultural habits and and and political cultures.
Speaker 2: So there the ground, the proverbial soil was kind of, uh,
Speaker 2: it was kind of eager for for rebellion against central
Speaker 2: authority anyway. But at that time too, like the papacy
Speaker 2: in Rome was was viewed as highly corrupt, which it was,
Speaker 2: and so a lot of these like friars who actually
Speaker 2: were like, you know, radically pious, they they found themselves
Speaker 2: at odds with the papacy, who in turn, you know,
Speaker 2: called upon on you know, the the Castilian monarchy in Spain,
Speaker 2: they kind of restore the status quo. But the but
Speaker 2: the monarchy had to tread lately because a lot of
Speaker 2: these priests were kind of like more like literally more
Speaker 2: Catholic than the pope, you know, and the Castilion monarchs
Speaker 2: entire kind of their entire mandate to that kind of extraordinary,
Speaker 2: extraordinarily deep authority basically owed to their ability to you know,
Speaker 2: maintain like the confidence and and the absolute endorsement of uh,
Speaker 2: of the Catholic charity. You know. So it was it
Speaker 2: was central wasn't against regionalism. It was you know that
Speaker 2: that that weakened the structure that Ford and created. It
Speaker 2: was the odd dynamics at play between uh, the papacy
Speaker 2: and and you know, the cardinals in Spain itself and
Speaker 2: else where. It was there was a rising uh. There
Speaker 2: there was a there was a there was a rising
Speaker 2: uh against Charles the Fifth, who was Isabella's grandson. That
Speaker 2: was uh, that was uh, you know, provoked by like
Speaker 2: was viewed as like his his his abuse of of
Speaker 2: of public moneys and things. You know, it's just like
Speaker 2: typical sort of uh discontent you know with uh, I
Speaker 2: mean with with with rulers didn't well handle the forcenes
Speaker 2: of the country, like material and otherwise, but it took
Speaker 2: on it, It took on and outside and often like
Speaker 2: literally theological meaning like owing to you know, some of
Speaker 2: the some of the uh sociological tendencies at play. A
Speaker 2: lot of the country had been assimilated into the in
Speaker 2: the in the Castilian rule through like marriage, you know,
Speaker 2: so you had you had a Spanish halfspur line. You
Speaker 2: know that like found itself at odds with with or
Speaker 2: with with a lot of the peasantry, you know, owing
Speaker 2: to complicated reasons of bloodline and things that like wouldn't
Speaker 2: mean anything to an American, but had deep, deep significance
Speaker 2: to to uh, you know, the people in that time
Speaker 2: and place and pre even the days people like where
Speaker 2: they as meeting them. I'm not saying that derisively, but
Speaker 2: and there was times when you had an officer court
Speaker 2: who uh was sympathetic to you know, these kinds that
Speaker 2: like nascent middle class uprisings, you know in like eighteen
Speaker 2: thirteen and eighteen forty eight. You know, ultimately the pendulum
Speaker 2: swung the other way, you know, and which is where
Speaker 2: it kind of remained into the twentieth century. And if
Speaker 2: you'll notice that parallel between this kind of situation in
Speaker 2: Spain and the kind of situation you had in uh Chile,
Speaker 2: you know uh with uh with Pinochet and the officers
Speaker 2: contra like civil society, like you'd be right, like there's
Speaker 2: something there's something to how uh you know, Latin America
Speaker 2: like mirror Spain in the way that you know the
Speaker 2: UK like mirrors the United States in terms of political
Speaker 2: sociology and zeitgeist and other things. I find that fascinating.
Speaker 2: But it the uh, the uh like all these things
Speaker 2: like Spain was basically it was uh everything that the
Speaker 2: communists claimed about uh, you know, capitalists, like what they
Speaker 2: viewed is like you know, late capitalist failure was found
Speaker 2: in Spain, you know, and in their in their mind
Speaker 2: or in their propaganda. But I mean think I think
Speaker 2: they also believed it. You know, they said that, like,
Speaker 2: you know, the only reason why the only reason why
Speaker 2: the church retained, the Roman Church retains power in Spain
Speaker 2: is because, like the last the final recourse of the
Speaker 2: capitalists is the is to draw upon, you know, reactionary
Speaker 2: tendencies you know, within uh, with within the body politic,
Speaker 2: you know, who are vulnerable as such appeals, you knowing
Speaker 2: to this going to the punctuated disruption of their lives.
Speaker 2: You know. So it was like it was, I mean,
Speaker 2: I think, you know, I'm as saying like war arrives
Speaker 2: like the seasons, and there was matters of zeitgeist that
Speaker 2: you know, made Spain kind of the battlespace as as
Speaker 2: it happened. But there was also in more kind of
Speaker 2: and more and more kind of abstract terms, like abstract
Speaker 2: intellectual terms. It was like Spain was there was gonna
Speaker 2: be there was gonna be a bullshitic uprising in Spain,
Speaker 2: you know, and uh and and the the Soviet Union
Speaker 2: was gonna be was gonna be insinuated into that process
Speaker 2: as much as it could be without provoking a general
Speaker 2: war with you know, the Third Reich or something by
Speaker 2: proxy the UH. Ironically, though, and again, you know, into
Speaker 2: the twentieth century, Spain remained economically backwards. There was a
Speaker 2: basic hostility to commercial activity. Like it's like the Code
Speaker 2: of Hidalgo or whatever. It really it really didn't a
Speaker 2: certain it really didn't despise you know, money, you know,
Speaker 2: like it went beyond you know, content for usury and things.
Speaker 2: There were there's something not just unbecoming a nobleman or
Speaker 2: any or any man who's you know, an upright Christian
Speaker 2: of good race and breeding, you know, taking any interest
Speaker 2: in in money not derived you know from uh, from
Speaker 2: an estate or something. And it wasn't they they couldn't
Speaker 2: transition that into productive capital, you know, like say Prussia did.
Speaker 2: You know, So they're not despite what you know, despite
Speaker 2: what liberals claim, like their Marxist counterparts, you know, it's not.
Speaker 2: Capitalism isn't like this fundamentally like actually or axiomatically like
Speaker 2: liberalizing tendency. You know, like Prussia was arguably the most
Speaker 2: reactionary state that existed in the modern era, and they
Speaker 2: were remarkably capitalists. I mean they were they were abiding
Speaker 2: you know, the they were abiding the the economic victims
Speaker 2: of people Frederick List. You know obviously, you know, they
Speaker 2: had the correct paradigm of you know, commercial interest being
Speaker 2: subjugated to the national interests at all times. This idea
Speaker 2: that like well, you know, if you have you know,
Speaker 2: if you have like a basically kind of like you know,
Speaker 2: martial cast or if you have you know, a basically
Speaker 2: reactionary conservative elite, you know that they it's it's it's
Speaker 2: literally impossible for them to uh, you know, transition a
Speaker 2: medieval economy into a modern market, modern value added economy
Speaker 2: with you know, where where revenues are reinvested in a
Speaker 2: productive capital like this bullshit, because I that's that like
Speaker 2: that is literally a story of Germany and especially Prussia. Okay,
Speaker 2: but a it uh, there was a certain rigidity to
Speaker 2: things in Spain that that that just did not or
Speaker 2: could not happen, and it was exacerbated you know, like
Speaker 2: I said, the the the quote era of reform, you know,
Speaker 2: like the mid eighteenth century. I guess until like the
Speaker 2: Napoleonic the final Napoleonic UH defeat in eighteen thirteen, there
Speaker 2: was there was a you know, you had you had
Speaker 2: a nascent middle class or at least a wealthier uh,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of a freehold class, you know, who
Speaker 2: were attracted to the ideas of uh, of of these
Speaker 2: Enlightenment propagandas at least superficially that put uh, that put
Speaker 2: that put pressure on Charles the Third to issue reforms,
Speaker 2: which in turn reduced the Church's influence over the army,
Speaker 2: where a lot of officers were being you know, bought
Speaker 2: off by these reforms. And incidentally a lot of those
Speaker 2: officers had taken to Freemasonry. And that in large part
Speaker 2: is where you get the idea or the claim that like,
Speaker 2: you know, well, Masonry is this revolution from the middle
Speaker 2: kind of degenerate tendency that like hates Catholicism. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that that's correct or not. I'm just saying that's
Speaker 2: where it comes from. Okay, So don't I don't have
Speaker 2: people sending me hate email or something. But that in
Speaker 2: turn caused you know, like people who were you know,
Speaker 2: sympathetic to the ancient regime or who were committed to
Speaker 2: the kind of cast structure, and you know the uh,
Speaker 2: the kind of paradigm of a you know, an officer
Speaker 2: corps that works handing love with the army, both of
Speaker 2: whom are you know, beholden to an absolute monarch who
Speaker 2: uh in turn abides you know, their traditional privileges and benefits,
Speaker 2: like socially materially. So this is just like a This
Speaker 2: is just like a literally like a perfect storm of
Speaker 2: like dysfunctional tendencies. You know. It's and that's that's why
Speaker 2: when things jumped off in Spain, you know, finally in
Speaker 2: uh in nineteen thirty six, I mean, there was such
Speaker 2: there was such hostility, and that's all you know, I
Speaker 2: mean just I mean reciprocally, but it was also the
Speaker 2: it's easy to understand why even guys who weren't you know,
Speaker 2: diehard national socialists or like iron guard parisans, It's easy
Speaker 2: to see why people looked at it like, look, this
Speaker 2: is the communists are like, they're making an example here,
Speaker 2: you know, the the body everything they hate. They want
Speaker 2: to they want to annihilate Spain and the Spanish as
Speaker 2: a people, as a culture form. They want to annihilate
Speaker 2: the church in capacity to exist in the modern world,
Speaker 2: and and and then they were right, Okay. I mean
Speaker 2: that's why it became so critically symbolic. I would seem
Speaker 2: like I was jumping around a lot, and there was
Speaker 2: a lot of like, I hope it's useless backstory and lore,
Speaker 2: but I that's the way it came off. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I think you'll thank me as we get into this
Speaker 2: because I refer to things that. Okay, now, but we.
Speaker 1: Need that backstory because most people don't know the history
Speaker 1: of Spain. They yeah, they I assume they just think
Speaker 1: it is just another feudal country, country that went through feudalism,
Speaker 1: just like everyone else. And they don't realize the battles
Speaker 1: that actually battles that you would see coming in the
Speaker 1: future actually happened there.
Speaker 2: No one hundred percent. And I also like, as we
Speaker 2: go on, uh, there's just like too much to like
Speaker 2: fully cover here, Like you mentioned when we when we
Speaker 2: talked the other day, Like I'll get into why the
Speaker 2: Carlists were like fighting on the national side or the
Speaker 2: patriotic side. I'll get into other stuff, you know, like
Speaker 2: why like the Spanish ar Modus defeat, you know, like
Speaker 2: tanked everything. But we're gonna wait till we're like in
Speaker 2: that context and primarily though, I want to focus on
Speaker 2: you know, the third or I get war on Spain
Speaker 2: and like, you know, how the military situation developed. So
Speaker 2: I promise we'll dive into that very next episode.
Speaker 1: All right, do some plugs and Lendon, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: Man. You can find me on Twitter for the time
Speaker 2: being at Real Capital r E A L Underscore number
Speaker 2: seven h M A S seven seven seven. You find
Speaker 2: me a substick that's our primary home, No real Thomas
Speaker 2: seven seven seven Subsey dot com. I think in good
Speaker 2: progress towards the channel. I promise things are getting done,
Speaker 2: even if it doesn't seem like it. I've been trying
Speaker 2: to work my ass off money out of content, So
Speaker 2: I've been trying to get people a lot of content.
Speaker 2: I'm not being a murder like, oh I'm so great,
Speaker 2: but uh keep that in mind if it seems like
Speaker 2: I'm being idol or a nerd rather but uh I,
Speaker 2: uh I've gotten more confidence like in shooting video. Uh
Speaker 2: it just comes out of editing it and making it,
Speaker 2: you know, content worthy, and uh I I basically just
Speaker 2: got to decide on a format for you know, like
Speaker 2: my kind of like for for for Thomas TV, which
Speaker 2: I think is gonna be something like a video blog,
Speaker 2: but like I are are are are a video pod,
Speaker 2: but like I want to have like guests like sitting
Speaker 2: there with me, and like some people like down for that.
Speaker 2: Some people are like horrified to that prospect, but I
Speaker 2: think it'll be pretty lit man. But my point is,
Speaker 2: like I'm working on all of these things, and I
Speaker 2: really really appreciate everybody who gives me a platform, especially
Speaker 2: not not just Pee who's my dear friend, but like
Speaker 2: other people who just reach out.
Speaker 1: So thank you very much, Thomas, I appreciate it. Until
Speaker 1: episode two.
Speaker 2: Yes, sure, thank you.
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show.
Speaker 1: We are here for part two on the Spanish Civil
Speaker 1: War with Thomas seven seven seven. How are you doing, Thomas.
Speaker 2: I'm very well, thank you, but I wanted to talk
Speaker 2: about some today. This is going to be a recurring
Speaker 2: theme conceptually throughout the series. There's a military dimension to
Speaker 2: the Spanish War that's important and was impactful in just
Speaker 2: positive ways. There's a political aspect and kind of very
Speaker 2: concrete terms, especially relating to the Neutrality Act that had
Speaker 2: really kind of bound with the ability of the new
Speaker 2: dealers to act how they wanted in global terms. Frankly,
Speaker 2: then we got into that, and our Second World War
Speaker 2: series somewhat or a turn to that too in a
Speaker 2: dedicated capacity when it seems appropriate. But I'm sure that
Speaker 2: there's gonna be some people who say that this is
Speaker 2: over in my own conceptual prejudices, and I kind of
Speaker 2: hay Gaelian orientation and my tendency towards German storicism. But
Speaker 2: the the animating catalyst for the Spanish War was was Zeitgeist.
Speaker 2: You know, we got we got into that in the
Speaker 2: first episode. You know, I made the point that despite
Speaker 2: the a lot of historians make a point of the
Speaker 2: conspicuous absence of a fascist international, you know, contra a
Speaker 2: communist international, some of that's a Cold War hangover, when
Speaker 2: you know, you'd have you'd have progress, you know stuff.
Speaker 2: I don't like progressive historians, you know, with having to
Speaker 2: present the issue as well, see that, you know, this
Speaker 2: this was just you know, these are just capitalist states
Speaker 2: and crisis, and they they were they were just scrambling
Speaker 2: to sort of confabulate some iteration of what appeared to be,
Speaker 2: you know, a revolutionary tendency in its own right. You know,
Speaker 2: to sort of rob the momentum of the left. You know,
Speaker 2: that doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny anyway, But
Speaker 2: the fact that there was this kind of outpouring of
Speaker 2: support for the nationalist cause, you know, which really was
Speaker 2: the cabolic cause. You know, we'll get into that a
Speaker 2: little bit here today. I mean, you know, and like
Speaker 2: I said, I I make a lot I guess of
Speaker 2: prime symbolic events, you know, I mean, prime symbols dominate
Speaker 2: in human psychology, you know, especially at scale, you know, sociologically.
Speaker 2: You know that that's that's why iconic events, you know,
Speaker 2: defined civic memory. But also you know, that's why political
Speaker 2: symbols are so important, you know, particularly when there's there's
Speaker 2: mobilization catalysts, you know, like during the Inner Warriors. But
Speaker 2: you know, we talked about the we talked about the funeral,
Speaker 2: the funerals of the few, the common funeral of Ion
Speaker 2: Mota and that's the old Marine, you know, and how
Speaker 2: you know, delegates from pretty much every European state that
Speaker 2: had any kind of active right wing movement or anti
Speaker 2: communist movement, you know, they turned out to literally salute,
Speaker 2: you know, the the funerary train. You know when they
Speaker 2: were greeted, uh, everywhere they went by these cadres, and
Speaker 2: that's not something that's not something that could just be
Speaker 2: you know, cobbled together for for photo opportunities. You know,
Speaker 2: it was very authentic. And just the fact that there
Speaker 2: were Medians on the ground in the first place, you know,
Speaker 2: and then they're they're being greeted and saluted by you know,
Speaker 2: uh shoot Staffelman, you know, and you had Italian priests
Speaker 2: you know, like like like blessing them and things. And
Speaker 2: then and then there's even like secular like French fascists
Speaker 2: like action france as types like saluting them, you know,
Speaker 2: who had obviously like no, no, no truck with reactionary
Speaker 2: Catholicism as it was perceived, you know, on his own terms.
Speaker 2: But that's most important in America too, because really some historians,
Speaker 2: including Anthony Beevor, who I I think he's overall a
Speaker 2: very good historian, articularly I mean he's not a revisionist
Speaker 2: really at all, as far as court historians go. I
Speaker 2: think he's probably the best, you know, on the subject
Speaker 2: of the Second World War in the interwar years. But
Speaker 2: he you know, he uh, he's got he's got a
Speaker 2: tendency to kind of hit the mark but not really
Speaker 2: understand the sort of depth of significance of some of
Speaker 2: these prime symbolic events. And he hits the mark. What
Speaker 2: he talks about the Spanish War being you know, a
Speaker 2: precursor to the Second World War. I mean, he perceives
Speaker 2: even a guy like him who rejects, you know, the
Speaker 2: kind of historicism of a guy like Novelty and and
Speaker 2: you know, uh as well as you know the the
Speaker 2: the contrasy storicism of people like Osbam, But he doesn't
Speaker 2: identify you know, like a common uh nucleus of approximate
Speaker 2: causation there. But it it was deeper than just you
Speaker 2: know what kind of a kind of opening act of
Speaker 2: hostilities relating to you know, extent you know, geostrategic ambitions
Speaker 2: and and and intentions. Know it really it really was
Speaker 2: apocal and and ideological and a matter of zeitgeist as
Speaker 2: the why as the why why what animated Germany to
Speaker 2: intervene in Spain? Why the Soviets staked it the way
Speaker 2: they did, you know why you know, i uh, progressives
Speaker 2: in America and the UK, you know, who identify themselves
Speaker 2: as you know, on the side of the COO democracy movement,
Speaker 2: which which is incredibly misguided and deliberately it was a
Speaker 2: deliberate lie. And we're going to get into that. So
Speaker 2: that that's a question that at Bar is kind of
Speaker 2: like why Spain, Well, well, we think of, like speaking
Speaker 2: of civic myths, so can we think of we think
Speaker 2: of the kind of prime symbols The left likes to
Speaker 2: trot out as like the horrors of you know that
Speaker 2: which came before one of the big ones is the
Speaker 2: Inquisition or the Crusades. They can't really, they can't really
Speaker 2: expand upon what they mean by that, you know, like
Speaker 2: what inquisition, because there was three. There's the Portuguese Inquisition,
Speaker 2: there was the Italian, and there was the Spains. The
Speaker 2: Spanish Inquisition was the most politically significant. I'd say it
Speaker 2: was initiated by Isabella in fourteen seventy eight. You know,
Speaker 2: when we talked about ferd in Isabella like the irony
Speaker 2: of a of a of them like preceding the Westphalian state,
Speaker 2: you know by a century and a half. But but
Speaker 2: but Catholic Spain, like like like Ferdinand really did make
Speaker 2: Spain and national Catholic state sight unseen, you know in
Speaker 2: a in a way that is at odds with with
Speaker 2: Spain's kind of stagnant and traditionalist culture. I don't mean
Speaker 2: that punitively. That's just a fact. But the Spanish Inquisition
Speaker 2: endured for three hundred years. It's agreed upon now by everybody, Okay,
Speaker 2: by court, his story and revisionists or whatever. I could
Speaker 2: pull out citations, but I don't think it's an a assaria.
Speaker 2: If somebody really wants them now or on any topic
Speaker 2: we cover, I can provide them, but contact me directly.
Speaker 2: I'm not being autistic or something like. People do that
Speaker 2: to me, They're like, that's a bullshit, figure, where's your source? Well,
Speaker 2: I can source everything, but I'm not going to sit
Speaker 2: here and relay, you know, citations like a shithead. But
Speaker 2: between three thousand and six thousand people in three hundred
Speaker 2: years of the inquisitions Spanish Inquisition were put to death, okay,
Speaker 2: based on convictions. That's about two point seven percent of
Speaker 2: all cases. Okay. In one year, nineteen thirty six, the
Speaker 2: communists and their socialist allies in Spain slaughtered about six
Speaker 2: thousand priests and nuns, you know, just outright, they just
Speaker 2: massacred them. Okay. So within the first year of a
Speaker 2: three year conflict, more clergy people were categorically slaughtered by
Speaker 2: the Communists and their democratic allies. Then the total number
Speaker 2: of people put to death by the Inquisition or three
Speaker 2: centuries the Inquisition is what you're like taught, is this
Speaker 2: like event of abject horror in the strog of record.
Speaker 2: Like I'm not cadaic, so I don't I don't have
Speaker 2: some like direk dog in that fight other than the
Speaker 2: fact that this kind of thing is discussing to anybody
Speaker 2: who's a don't normal, But that really jumped out at me, Like,
Speaker 2: as I said that, deep diving into Cali history, I'm
Speaker 2: findingly like twenty five years ago, No, okay, not because
Speaker 2: like I believe that, like you know, the Inquisition was,
Speaker 2: you know, this kind of horror show or this kind
Speaker 2: of singular instance of brutality that's just unparalleled by anything comparable.
Speaker 2: I mean, I knew that court history was histriotic, I
Speaker 2: knew that they lied, but it's remarkable, like contra the
Speaker 2: violence that was instigated against you know, the CADLT clergy itself,
Speaker 2: you know within really it wasnt until a few years
Speaker 2: ago living memory, you know, the if you if you
Speaker 2: want to if you want to vilify the Roman Church,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of ways you can do it without
Speaker 2: opening yourself up to that kind of criticism. Okay, but
Speaker 2: I that's another example of some something like that particular myth.
Speaker 2: I was making the point that a bunch of people
Speaker 2: lament you know, the information age and the kind of
Speaker 2: corrupting influence of you know, this kind of like totally
Speaker 2: immersion like in screens. You know it there, it's more
Speaker 2: it's more of a liberation mechanism than it is you know,
Speaker 2: like one of then then then it's like a check
Speaker 2: called the psychic slavery. And there's just like one example, okay,
Speaker 2: like forty years ago you could band you better. The
Speaker 2: end position was the most horrible thing ever. And thank
Speaker 2: god that you know, the Democrats in nineteen thirty six,
Speaker 2: you know, stopped it from from oppressing women and slaughtering
Speaker 2: people and you know, like crucifying gay people. It's sitting
Speaker 2: on fire, like you get away with that, Okay, even
Speaker 2: people wh knew it wasn't true, they couldn't just like
Speaker 2: rebut you like with in seconds like from the phone
Speaker 2: in their pocket. Okay. And I was making the point
Speaker 2: that you know, we're not. We're not running an evangelical church,
Speaker 2: we're not missionaries. So I mean I I don't go
Speaker 2: out in the world and say to people like, see,
Speaker 2: like this is what you've been lied too. Look at
Speaker 2: the figures on my phone for the imposition, but for
Speaker 2: the people who are you know, interested in real history,
Speaker 2: you know, for the people who are charged for political
Speaker 2: or patriotic reasons, or just because like it feels like
Speaker 2: a calling me and like corny that sounds like I
Speaker 2: feel like being a revisionist is like my calling. That's
Speaker 2: like what God wants me to do. It. Uh, you
Speaker 2: don't feel so much like you're brushing up against the
Speaker 2: Leviathan and trying to correct these lies of history. And
Speaker 2: it's also even if you think yourself basic immune to zeitgeist,
Speaker 2: you're not okay. You're gonna internalize features of it, even
Speaker 2: if you're doing so in oppositional terms, because it's like
Speaker 2: the weather, you know, like Al's coming back, you know,
Speaker 2: like in Natural Born Killers, that might seem like a
Speaker 2: corny thing to site in a serious discussion, but it's
Speaker 2: actually a pretty profound film. I think owing in large
Speaker 2: part of the screenplay, there's this one part where I'm
Speaker 2: you know what he harrelse and he's like he's modeled
Speaker 2: on stark Weather. You know. He says to the guy
Speaker 2: he's supposed to be like Heraldo, who's played by Robert
Speaker 2: Downey Junior. He's like, you know, he's like, media is
Speaker 2: like weather, but it's man made weather, you know. And
Speaker 2: and that's true, you know, And the degree to which
Speaker 2: there was only the degree that there's a bully pulpit
Speaker 2: for historical claims and narrative, you know, the kind of
Speaker 2: brief window an absolute turns brief. I mean between when
Speaker 2: visual media you know, from the movie house and then
Speaker 2: you know, to the TV screen and then like the
Speaker 2: ubiquity of you know, the the cable media cycle that
Speaker 2: was edged out by Internet very rapidly after it reached
Speaker 2: the zenith. But there was a brief period of dizenith,
Speaker 2: you know, in the eighties into like the mid nineties,
Speaker 2: where we was just absolute okay, like it it was
Speaker 2: it could not be fucked with. It was like like
Speaker 2: you were like, if you were a visionist, you were
Speaker 2: a proverbial ninety pound weekling, and media was Mike Tyson
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty eight. Okay, like it there's just nothing
Speaker 2: you could do to it, okay, and even uh, even
Speaker 2: the climate was such that even even the people who
Speaker 2: are otherwise receptive you just come off like a crank okay,
Speaker 2: because you know, literally like the conceptual weather system you know,
Speaker 2: don't invoke the metaphor again, was completely at odds with
Speaker 2: what you were declaring, okay, and that the degree to
Speaker 2: which you know, Internet changed everything and cannot be overstated.
Speaker 2: And that's why that's why Twitter went early berzerk, you know,
Speaker 2: like a few years back, and that's why Meg now,
Speaker 2: like you run an Internet. I just went in an
Speaker 2: our center that searched for polio, like not even because
Speaker 2: I was in a discussion with a guy who does
Speaker 2: a lot of research on AIDS and on like idiolog
Speaker 2: itsiological like sources of disease. So I don't know, like
Speaker 2: learn about polio. I didn't type in like is polio
Speaker 2: fake or something. My first result is that there is
Speaker 2: a conspiracy theory that polio was created by the government
Speaker 2: or it's like I didn't ask that, you know, It's like,
Speaker 2: so they're showing their hand, like I could probably I
Speaker 2: could probably want to search like naval oranges or for
Speaker 2: like puppy dogs, and it would be like, you know,
Speaker 2: the Nazis massic puppy dogs because they were the most
Speaker 2: evil people ever or something like I should you not
Speaker 2: it's like that extreme. But the point is like it's
Speaker 2: not they're they're not even they're they're not even willing
Speaker 2: to you know, just kind of like deploy like lesions
Speaker 2: of uh of like disinfo people to like you know, Twitter,
Speaker 2: like or do Instagram. And it's interesting and so many
Speaker 2: people doing like screen capture to like get like concepts out,
Speaker 2: you know. And then I'm interested in how they're how
Speaker 2: they're gonna They're already shutting stuff down into auspices of
Speaker 2: you know, that's inappropriate for children or something. But it's
Speaker 2: that I don't want to go too far on the topic.
Speaker 2: But in the event, okay, so why is Spain and
Speaker 2: why did the Communists attack the clergy like this? I mean,
Speaker 2: like we know why, like in terms of you know
Speaker 2: why they hated the church and we know why you know,
Speaker 2: bullsheit at cadres if you like clergy people as standard
Speaker 2: bearers of of a counter revolutionary tendency of tremendous power,
Speaker 2: but just hand over fists like slaughtering clergy people. It
Speaker 2: seems like it's bad optics. Okay, now, for a long time,
Speaker 2: what the what the elk? What the alibi was of
Speaker 2: the left in Spain. It was a strange transition period
Speaker 2: after Franco died. Franco was elderly, but he died somewhat
Speaker 2: abruptly and as you might have imagined the especially in
Speaker 2: those days, you know, in nineteen seventy five, there was
Speaker 2: not a lot of news coming out of Madrid about,
Speaker 2: you know, the the kind of health of Franco, but
Speaker 2: also too like people like like ahead of state. Now
Speaker 2: he's got he's got like doctors, like a bosass figured
Speaker 2: of being literally like all the time, you know, like
Speaker 2: in those days, it was not like people even if
Speaker 2: you know, it was not clear, like what the state
Speaker 2: of somebody's health was always isn't There wasn't this uh,
Speaker 2: there wasn't this kind of a there There wasn't this
Speaker 2: kind of ongoing like revolutionary shift like there wasn't Portugal,
Speaker 2: you know, like uh like sales Ar among other things,
Speaker 2: averted a buddy civil war, I mean, as a topic
Speaker 2: for another pod or series entirely. But Franco dies suddenly,
Speaker 2: it becomes clear that people aren't gonna accept you know,
Speaker 2: like uh, you know, the the reinstitution of just a
Speaker 2: constitucial monarchy. It becomes clear that like even if Franco
Speaker 2: had a successor, he wasn't gonna be up that either.
Speaker 2: Spain's now like been in NATO for many years, you know,
Speaker 2: it was, it's been, it's been integrated, poor man in
Speaker 2: Europe as it may be. It's it had been integrated
Speaker 2: you know for decades into the ec it uh. But
Speaker 2: there were there was like in terms like the ideological culture,
Speaker 2: there was problems, you know, especially because you know, not
Speaker 2: just going to the Cold War, but it's you know,
Speaker 2: it's they weren't gonna I if they tried to pull
Speaker 2: like what South Africa did, you know, the Truth Reconciliation
Speaker 2: Committee or something like that, that things would have deteriorated,
Speaker 2: if not into you know, civil war like it would
Speaker 2: it would it would have permanently gridlocked you know, the government,
Speaker 2: the emergent government, and it would have had no legitimacy.
Speaker 2: But the kind of alibi was always well that was
Speaker 2: the Soviets doing that, you know, and the NKVD was
Speaker 2: doing that, and the or these were just you know outlie,
Speaker 2: these these are outliers. You know, these were violent people
Speaker 2: doing terrible things because this was like a bad time.
Speaker 2: Well interestingly, this was uh well.
Speaker 1: They they tried to blame they always blame it on
Speaker 1: the anarchists.
Speaker 2: That too, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the that was
Speaker 2: There was these anarchic cycle pass and you know, they.
Speaker 1: They were the one digging up the you know, the
Speaker 1: famous and taking pictures of them.
Speaker 2: But there was an incident, or there was a series
Speaker 2: of incidents, specifically from November seventh to December fourth, thirty six,
Speaker 2: there's this kind of a peak of of revolutionary violence, okay, uh,
Speaker 2: especially in the cities and uh like the provinces immediately
Speaker 2: abutting the ones uh containing the cities November seventh to
Speaker 2: approximate December fourth and thirty six, a bunch of political
Speaker 2: prisoners helping Madrid jails. They were just spontaneously evacuated, like
Speaker 2: the outlying provinces. And these people were these were all
Speaker 2: political prisoners, okay, like some of them had been imperisrated
Speaker 2: on grounds that they were anti social or something. But
Speaker 2: these these are trumped up charges. These weren't criminals, Okay,
Speaker 2: that I need to make that clear. They were. They
Speaker 2: were evacuated over these weeks on mass and and and
Speaker 2: they were they were executed. They were just exterminated. The
Speaker 2: man responsible at that time for jails in public order
Speaker 2: was a man named Solarius, Santiago Solarius. He was all
Speaker 2: of twenty one years old and man he thirty six,
Speaker 2: and that was part of his alibi, okay, upon return
Speaker 2: from exile with the that Franco, because everybody got you know,
Speaker 2: amnesty like the jury as well as like the facto.
Speaker 2: I mean, this was very much and then he spatter
Speaker 2: to live through it. We'll tell you, I'm sure this
Speaker 2: was very deliberate, you know, like we we've got to
Speaker 2: finesse these bad feelings and let the past become the past,
Speaker 2: you know, which under more ordinary circumstances would probably be
Speaker 2: a laudable What the what Solario's defenders claimed the churse, Well,
Speaker 2: this these are just false propaganda, you know, outright, this
Speaker 2: just didn't happen. But then it's evidence mounted it. Uh
Speaker 2: you know what uh what Solarios is people themselves claimed
Speaker 2: as well as kind of what the regime came to
Speaker 2: claim in like a soft pedaling kind of way, was
Speaker 2: that well, you know there were there were there were
Speaker 2: extraduicial killings that were wrong, but these were arbitrary and caprecious.
Speaker 2: You know, extradusial killings that were were isolated incidents. You know,
Speaker 2: they weren't categorical, they weren't organized well. In two thousand
Speaker 2: and four, historian a guy named Whereverte, Spanish historian UH.
Speaker 2: Kind of a right friendly guy, but like more of
Speaker 2: a conservative, you know, not he wasn't the guy who
Speaker 2: could be just kind of dismissed as some like right winger.
Speaker 2: I mean it's not really that's not grounds of objective
Speaker 2: grounds to dismiss somebody's findings anyway, But you don't say
Speaker 2: what I mean, like, this guy wasn't some idealogue with
Speaker 2: the you know, the kind of milk toast regime is
Speaker 2: the kind that you know can be only kind of
Speaker 2: regime in Europe after the Cold War? Would you can
Speaker 2: kind of dismiss the He began digging into the archives
Speaker 2: of UH, the UH, the Iberian Anarchist Federation and the
Speaker 2: National Confederation of Labor which united at some point prior
Speaker 2: to the onset of hostilities. And there are archives were
Speaker 2: house in Amsterdam where I believe and I'm not trying
Speaker 2: to sit Dutch people. But there's there's a lot of
Speaker 2: there was a lot of communist cadre and revolutionary party
Speaker 2: archives and sensitive documents housed in Holland. Okay, I don't
Speaker 2: know why that is, but that I don't that can't
Speaker 2: be disputed. Okay, that's why these documents are located there.
Speaker 2: Where Verite discovered the literal minutes of meeting, you know,
Speaker 2: between the Iberian Federation field commanders and the nationally federational
Speaker 2: labor like security element, and they literally described a classification
Speaker 2: protocol for who should be exterminated just on categorical terms. Okay,
Speaker 2: And these people who were evacuated, these political detainees, they
Speaker 2: all fell into that category. Right. These are people are
Speaker 2: identified as fascist sympathetic, you know, people who were you know,
Speaker 2: lay people in the calyp Church who had some role
Speaker 2: people just denounced, you know. And this was something of
Speaker 2: a mini scandal, I mean, not just in academic quarters,
Speaker 2: but because even even up two, you know, and unfree
Speaker 2: as occupied Europe is like Spain's kind of a different thing,
Speaker 2: not just because it's not directly occupied by America, but
Speaker 2: it's you know, it wasn't a direct combat into World
Speaker 2: War Two. It's you know, there was more. I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna go as far First of all, I'm not an
Speaker 2: expert in the culture at all, but and I'm certainly
Speaker 2: not gonna go as far as to say that, you know,
Speaker 2: Spain is a more kind of reasoned view of historical matters.
Speaker 2: But it's different, you know, that can't be denied. And
Speaker 2: as I've dived deeper into this, that becomes clear, Like
Speaker 2: the historical controversies of Spain, you know, so they're a
Speaker 2: buttle to this, uh evidence. There's a leftist historian named
Speaker 2: uh anghell Venas Venus claimed like, well, yeah, this happened
Speaker 2: these these dimnutes from the meeting, that not that not
Speaker 2: you know, a forgery. However, He's like, this was we
Speaker 2: were on we were being ordered to do this by
Speaker 2: the Soviet you know, like our predecessors, you know, they
Speaker 2: were being ordered to do this by the Soviet Union.
Speaker 2: And the man primarily colored build was a man named
Speaker 2: Alexander Orlov. Who's Elexander Orlov. Well he was the chief
Speaker 2: of the nkv D in Spain. Okay, so, okay, there's
Speaker 2: problems with an alibi for a lot of reasons. It's like, okay,
Speaker 2: if you're under let's say, let's say that's undredercent correct. Okay,
Speaker 2: so you're under duress. Why was there an nkv D
Speaker 2: in Spain? I mean like there was there literally was
Speaker 2: an mkv D office in Spain, you know, and it
Speaker 2: you know, uh, I mean that raises questions of its own.
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, well they got there somehow are he's saying,
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union invaded Spain. You know, you were powerless
Speaker 2: to resist them, you know, they they you invited the
Speaker 2: men to help you fight against a fascist coup that
Speaker 2: was burgen thing, but then they took over. I mean,
Speaker 2: this isn't it's not as this is preposterous, but I
Speaker 2: mean in some ways it's worse than what what the
Speaker 2: initial allegation was, you know. But it also it cuts
Speaker 2: against to your point, like the alibi for the preceding
Speaker 2: you know, sixty seventy years had been well that was that,
Speaker 2: that was these that was these anarchists who were pragically
Speaker 2: fascists themselves. They had nothing to do with us, and
Speaker 2: these were just crazy people. You know. It's like okay,
Speaker 2: so now not now you were acting under orders of
Speaker 2: the Soviets and not of the Soviets, but the n
Speaker 2: k v D. And like you had Russian officers who
Speaker 2: had you know, who are cadres who who had authority
Speaker 2: over your own people in the field, Like what is this?
Speaker 2: You know, like I weren't weren't you all a bunch
Speaker 2: of once you are a bunch of liberal democrats and
Speaker 2: you know, uh, and that's why and people love freedom
Speaker 2: like joined to go to go to go fight against
Speaker 2: the fascists. I mean, like it's this like, on the
Speaker 2: one hand, on i'd say this, I'd say that this
Speaker 2: guy is not particularly credible, but again it's that in
Speaker 2: some ways that's more incriminating than what than the prima
Speaker 2: fati inferenced one would draw from documents. But it also
Speaker 2: too when I a friend of mine made this point
Speaker 2: when he and I were discussing this, and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: he's he's got a law background, like guy who I mean,
Speaker 2: maybe this is our kind of like bias in common
Speaker 2: for how we approach evidence. But he's like, you know,
Speaker 2: he's like, there's a if you're that cavalier about like
Speaker 2: who you're gonna categorically annihilate? You know, we're talking about
Speaker 2: non combatants and we're not. We're not using euphemisms like
Speaker 2: these people are bandits or these are you know, partisans.
Speaker 2: You know, we're not we're not using the language of
Speaker 2: like me LII four and like saying, well, these people
Speaker 2: are insurgents, like conveniently like leaving out you know, like
Speaker 2: their age, sex or or overall health. You're just like
Speaker 2: literally talking about like, okay, people identified under these categories
Speaker 2: just poltical detainees, you know, there to be terminated, Like
Speaker 2: you're very very confident, uh that this is never gonna
Speaker 2: come to life. You know, it's basically you're you're not
Speaker 2: worried about being taken to task after you know, General
Speaker 2: Franco or you know, or his German allies roll over
Speaker 2: you and and then and then put you on trial
Speaker 2: for this or like you know, put two rounds in
Speaker 2: the back of your head as payback, or just because
Speaker 2: you know you're you've obviously you know, you're obviously an
Speaker 2: irredeemable partisan, you know. And his point was that these
Speaker 2: people had assurances from the Soviet Union from day one,
Speaker 2: like don't worry about it, We're not going to let
Speaker 2: you lose. And I think that's a correct interpretation, Okay,
Speaker 2: I couldn't prove it in a corel of law. But
Speaker 2: you know, one thing you don't find. You don't find
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union like issuing, you know, in ninety thirty nine,
Speaker 2: you know, issuing telegrams to to field commanders about like
Speaker 2: annihilating a non combatants at Cantyan. You don't find Heyrich
Speaker 2: Himmler saying like, you know, hey, by the way, you
Speaker 2: know these people this is a race war, and like
Speaker 2: these people are categorical enemies. So I'm gonna put on paper.
Speaker 2: I just think you should waste them all, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is remarkable for a lot of reasons. Okay,
Speaker 2: I can I ask you a question?
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think that the Soviet Union was planning
Speaker 1: on winning the war and staying there? I mean Orloff
Speaker 1: was the one who took all of the Spanish gold
Speaker 1: to Moscow, right, and they and they bragged, and Stalin
Speaker 1: bragged about how it was going to be a robbery.
Speaker 1: And then Orloff in thirty eight has to defect because
Speaker 1: Stalin starts his purge of you know, a certain religious group.
Speaker 2: Right. What I think is, I mean, you get the
Speaker 2: way the Soviet Union looked at the I basically agree
Speaker 2: with Suberov's hypothesis. I think jackham Hoffman makes a better
Speaker 2: case for it in purely strategic terms and like practical terms,
Speaker 2: pragmatic terms. Okay, Stalin had to show up to fight
Speaker 2: in Spain, otherwise he would have lost all credibility, as
Speaker 2: you know, like the Soviet people would have lost all credibility,
Speaker 2: as like you know that the vanguard of like the
Speaker 2: World Revolution and like as we discussed before, and it
Speaker 2: kind of currents wey capacity people misunderstand socialism in one country.
Speaker 2: And what Stalin was trying, what he meant by that
Speaker 2: in literal terms, and what he was trying to project
Speaker 2: by that in a sort of dog whistle away, Like
Speaker 2: he wasn't saying like we have abandoned the World Revolution
Speaker 2: or that like we are some kind of like antarctic
Speaker 2: inward looking state, like a giant North Korea. You have
Speaker 2: not saying those things at all. Okay, You've got to
Speaker 2: be pretty well versed to releasing the rudimentary capacity. You've
Speaker 2: got to understand like what orthan like Leninism is to
Speaker 2: understand what he was saying, and you've got to understand
Speaker 2: why the Soviet people like what on what basis they
Speaker 2: were claiming, you know, to to be like the first
Speaker 2: among nations, like in the Social Revolution. That's the connext
Speaker 2: with which to understand it. Spain was where like the
Speaker 2: battle lines were drawn. Spain is where you know, the
Speaker 2: Bolsheviks collided, you know with the true like reactionary enemy
Speaker 2: like the Soviets had to show up to fight. What
Speaker 2: I think Stalin thought he could do was he thought
Speaker 2: the NKVD people like or a of people like Eric Milk.
Speaker 2: He thought that basically like uh, you know, he could
Speaker 2: arm and equip uh the Reds other thing they needed. Uh.
Speaker 2: The Nationalists didn't really have a pot to piss in until
Speaker 2: uh Milch and Gary came to rescue, you know, after uh,
Speaker 2: after Canari's uh act is emissary for Franco's people, you know,
Speaker 2: and then and then the Reds had a problem. But
Speaker 2: you know, the view from Moscow was, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: the the kind of revolutionaries, you know, the Falanges, uh,
Speaker 2: the national Catholics, the Carlos, They're gonna get smashed. We're
Speaker 2: gonna mop up. And if we have to stack a
Speaker 2: million bodies up, a priest non as Falangist and anybody
Speaker 2: else who's not with the program will do that. The
Speaker 2: Germans are then gonna freak the fuck out, you know,
Speaker 2: uh and anything, especially because uh, you know Spain and
Speaker 2: France it already like openly declared you know, sympathy if
Speaker 2: not you know, allegiance, you know with the with the Reds,
Speaker 2: that was going to exacerbate, you know, like the war
Speaker 2: in the West that Stalin always believe was imminent. The uh,
Speaker 2: the Germans are gonna get bogged down like they did
Speaker 2: in nineteen fourteen, as like Germany bleeds white, like Stalin
Speaker 2: and the Red Army was gonna like smash from the
Speaker 2: through from the east. You know. That was like ideally
Speaker 2: would have happened, you know, but it wasn't. But just
Speaker 2: Stalin wasn't ready yet. And that's that's that's something that
Speaker 2: the non aggression pack owes to also because there's this
Speaker 2: odd situation where I mean once once the Vermont actually
Speaker 2: did deploy and like I said, we'll get into like
Speaker 2: Montoma's uh like ground element too, which is fascinating. Like
Speaker 2: the Germans were the Germans were fighting in Spain, it
Speaker 2: wasn't just you know, it was just like loof off
Speaker 2: like hot shots, like flying a handle with sorties, like
Speaker 2: you know, you had very much elements like going into
Speaker 2: ground action against the communists they were killing Russians, Okay,
Speaker 2: and vice versa. Potentially that's explosive, you know, but again
Speaker 2: too like a non aggression pack, only only as a
Speaker 2: context that you're careening towards war anyway, I mean like
Speaker 2: it Otherwise it doesn't make sense, but it I believe
Speaker 2: that was Stalin's notion. But it's also the uh, the
Speaker 2: Soviets for the durationem of their existence. I mean, people
Speaker 2: like like to look down in the Russians and like
Speaker 2: make fun of them and stuff, and I mean whatever,
Speaker 2: Like I I'm not gonna open up some kind of
Speaker 2: general general discussion about like the character of Russians or whatever.
Speaker 2: But they the Russians are serious people, man, and like
Speaker 2: they like whate their shortcomings are, like in war in peace,
Speaker 2: they're really really good at intriguing and they're really really
Speaker 2: good at insinuating their people into them into proxy uh
Speaker 2: elements that serve their interests and kind of like fortifying
Speaker 2: and shaping those interests the way they want them to develop. Okay.
Speaker 2: I mean examples are Legion. Okay, like right until the
Speaker 2: end they were doing this in in you know, in
Speaker 2: nicaraugu and I'll sell it or you know like they
Speaker 2: which frankly was incredible because that was that that would
Speaker 2: have been, that would have that would have been like
Speaker 2: the feather in their cap, you know, like, hey, we've
Speaker 2: got you know, we've we've got actual like us Lennon
Speaker 2: as client regimes. You know, I got on the American continent.
Speaker 2: There's nothing America can do about it, you know, without
Speaker 2: waging some kind of jungle war with you know, half
Speaker 2: of half the country is in the Panama zone. But
Speaker 2: he hasn't mad like That's that's what I believe the
Speaker 2: Soviet notion was. And when when the Reds got the
Speaker 2: first of all in Germany came in like in the
Speaker 2: with when it deployed in depth the way it did,
Speaker 2: I don't think Stalin got very worried. I don't think
Speaker 2: he knew that the Germans were capable of that. I
Speaker 2: don't think a lot of people did. And plus it
Speaker 2: was that's when Gering was like his best. Arguably he
Speaker 2: was an attic then and he but he he still
Speaker 2: had it together like Erard Millerts, who I think was
Speaker 2: the best. He was Eron Mills is one of the
Speaker 2: best field marshals the Germans had. The guy was like
Speaker 2: a literal genius, you know, and he later like he's
Speaker 2: the guy relieved the beleaguer Hrmacht and Norway and like
Speaker 2: literally saved the day, you know, like hevon Toma was
Speaker 2: one of the was one of the was one of
Speaker 2: the armies best freaking commanders. Like these guys, these weren't
Speaker 2: like second Raiders who were going to fight in Spain.
Speaker 2: And you know, these were these guys who like the
Speaker 2: Kareama like they hear on the Loofaffa, you know, like
Speaker 2: at that point, and they they they they had a
Speaker 2: they very much had a sense of h and they're
Speaker 2: very gung hole guys. You know, they're like, hey, we're
Speaker 2: going to fight the Rets. You know, We're not there's
Speaker 2: in some stupid war rope into against France because like
Speaker 2: we're always dealing with the French or something or it's
Speaker 2: not you know, it's not making meat and border dispute,
Speaker 2: like we're fighting the communists, Like this is it, you know,
Speaker 2: like this is this is uh, this is our chance
Speaker 2: to to smash these people, you know, like after they've
Speaker 2: been racking up victories, you know, for the last last
Speaker 2: twenty years. You know it, but it's hard to say.
Speaker 2: I mean, Stalin playthings close to the chest. I mean
Speaker 2: what Stalin did say, and like we've got into both
Speaker 2: in the last episode on the Spanish War. But you know,
Speaker 2: in our UH, in our Second World War series throughout
Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties, Stalin addressing UH, like particularly cadres and
Speaker 2: general officers in the Red Army and kind of like
Speaker 2: feeling them out, you know, as as a group, you know,
Speaker 2: to see like really if they were like battle ready,
Speaker 2: you know, in a general war against Germany. I mean,
Speaker 2: Germany's always like Russia's proble opponent, but you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, like in more concrete terms. But then it
Speaker 2: was after about it was about nineteen thirty seven, ninety
Speaker 2: thirty eight that like suddenly Stealins are talking about like,
Speaker 2: look like you know, our doctrine, our our political doction
Speaker 2: in our battle doctrine is anonymous, you know, like we
Speaker 2: we we never fight defensively, like we always fight on
Speaker 2: foreign soil unless like you know, we're we're affecting you know,
Speaker 2: like a fighting retreat because we're expstentially threatened, you know,
Speaker 2: like the uh, like you know, like the Bolshevik cause
Speaker 2: is inextricably linked, you know, to the to the Russian
Speaker 2: national ambitions. We started talking like a world word, you know,
Speaker 2: we started talking to uh, you know, like you started.
Speaker 2: He started issuing these like procles from on high, you know,
Speaker 2: just to Soviet people, you know about like we've got
Speaker 2: you know, we can we can withstand any hardship and
Speaker 2: you know we we we can never like lose lose
Speaker 2: our faith and in the Communist cause, like no matter
Speaker 2: how grim things are for us moving forward, It's like,
Speaker 2: what was he talking about? He's not He's not He's
Speaker 2: not talking about like breadlines getting longer. He's not talking
Speaker 2: about it being really cold, mixt winner you know, he's
Speaker 2: it's obvious what he's talking about. And it and Gearing
Speaker 2: it was thirty seven. I think when Gearing as uh,
Speaker 2: you know, he he went with like the loof off
Speaker 2: of like military liaison you know, to these to these
Speaker 2: to this aircraft factory in the you're alls, and like
Speaker 2: the single aircraft factory had like quadrupled the capacity of
Speaker 2: like all German aircraft factories combined. Like I mean, you
Speaker 2: don't you don't build something like that like unless they're
Speaker 2: mobilizing for war, you know, I mean it's so I
Speaker 2: mean taken together it and with storians, including Bevar, they'll
Speaker 2: always say like, well, of course the Soviet you know,
Speaker 2: the Soviets, they tried to cast the war. They could
Speaker 2: try to guess warfare generally is like a schoolyard fight, like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: you know, the Germans struck first. It's like, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's like saying that, like as like calling somebody who
Speaker 2: moves first and chess the aggressor okay, like it doesn't
Speaker 2: the Soviets, there's no such thing. If you've got if
Speaker 2: you've got five million men out their arms and you know,
Speaker 2: you're building military aircraft by the hundreds, like there's not
Speaker 2: there's not a defensive purpose for those. I mean, there's
Speaker 2: defense and an offensive war doesn't make sense anyway, but
Speaker 2: it all that matters and strategic planning, his capabilities, and
Speaker 2: what Stalin was doing was he was amassing he was
Speaker 2: amassing the mightiest military force the world has ever seen.
Speaker 2: And then made the point once once the stories developed
Speaker 2: the bomb, even after the devastation of World War two,
Speaker 2: I believe Stalin was the single most powerful man who's
Speaker 2: ever lived. Okay, people can't conceptualize that these days, I
Speaker 2: don't think. Okay, but that's what uh, that's what I think. Uh,
Speaker 2: that's that's what I think we might understand it was.
Speaker 2: But it's also you know, it bears noticing too that
Speaker 2: there was obviously, you know, like during uh uh you know,
Speaker 2: the Munich Soviet and during link the Weimar years. I
Speaker 2: know that, like Trotsky's forces had gotten spanked in Poland,
Speaker 2: and obviously the Soviets were like arming those cadres like
Speaker 2: cause you know, havoc in Germany. But it's not you
Speaker 2: know that the n KVD wasn't deploying to Munich, you know,
Speaker 2: like I mean, it wasn't like the Soviets were, regardless
Speaker 2: of the fact that you know, again, uh, Soviet Soviet
Speaker 2: control is invoked as an alibi by apologists for communist
Speaker 2: violence in Spain, regardless of that, and regardless of degree
Speaker 2: of culpability and relative or absolute terms between the Red
Speaker 2: Spaniards in between the Soviet cadres, the Soviet Union had
Speaker 2: an actual NKVD branch there, you know, they had it
Speaker 2: beyond like nominal like political representation just to be like
Speaker 2: relaying to Moscow the battlefield situation was, you know, like this,
Speaker 2: this was not normal for the Soviet Union, and I
Speaker 2: realized the Soviet news and the abnormal state. But in
Speaker 2: terms of its power, projection, tendencies and strategy, it this
Speaker 2: was an outlier in terms of how it usually behaved.
Speaker 2: So you know, again I I think like a lawyer
Speaker 2: in terms of the evidence I favor and in terms
Speaker 2: of the way I calculate intention, particularly in war and
Speaker 2: peace terms. But motive means and motive that means an opportunity.
Speaker 2: It tends to be how you convinced the try refect
Speaker 2: of scientier. The court room is not uh bound by
Speaker 2: formal logic or anything. But we're talking about human affairs.
Speaker 2: There is something to that, you know, whether you're talking
Speaker 2: about individual men or were at scale. And again I
Speaker 2: I I don't think this can be denied. And even
Speaker 2: even where their conspiguous absence of some of this, some
Speaker 2: of this data of an entry data. Again, the Soviets
Speaker 2: couldn't afford to not fight in Spain did over the
Speaker 2: Third Reich. But even more so for the Soviets, the
Speaker 2: uh did sit out World War One, and that interestingly,
Speaker 2: that that that contributed in in oblique ways to the
Speaker 2: political situation in the thirties, Spain was a weird state.
Speaker 2: Man Like. On the one hand, I mean, Spain had
Speaker 2: an African empire, you know, they had They couldn't be
Speaker 2: said that Spain wasn't like a place of high culture.
Speaker 2: But they became this, you know, and again like they
Speaker 2: literally were like the first truly like national state in
Speaker 2: Europe despite their kind of inextricable relationship to the Roman
Speaker 2: Church in political terms, but they were something they weren't
Speaker 2: are something of an inward looking people. You know, they
Speaker 2: weren't practicing a global politique or even really a European
Speaker 2: power politique, you know, like they there became an an
Speaker 2: unprecedented demand for Spanish goods during World War One because
Speaker 2: they were a neutral, but the influx of capital like
Speaker 2: caused all kinds of problems with they're already you know,
Speaker 2: kind of troubled currencies. It swelled the cities, which I
Speaker 2: mean is this the cities were were were you know,
Speaker 2: they were the repository of red sympathy. But it's not
Speaker 2: as clear cut as people think, man. I mean, there
Speaker 2: was national districts in Madrid and in Barcelona, and uh
Speaker 2: there was also I mean, there were there was a
Speaker 2: there were there's people, there's guys, there's Catalan secessionists. We're
Speaker 2: just like catching their wag into the Communists because like
Speaker 2: they they thought that, hey, if we fight and like
Speaker 2: issue this is our demand, you know too, like the cadres,
Speaker 2: they'll have to give it to us. I mean it
Speaker 2: was it was kind of a alligated pastiche. But another thing,
Speaker 2: guys like Beeborn mist understand it makes the point that
Speaker 2: he's like, well, you know, why, why why why Spain
Speaker 2: gets still behind the Gallic church and gets so outraged
Speaker 2: at the mask of a clergy. Only twenty percent of
Speaker 2: people went to church. It's like you can't you can't
Speaker 2: adjudicate like the kind of the conceptual spirit for like
Speaker 2: a better word of a country and a culture, like
Speaker 2: by how many people are like sitting in pews on Sunday.
Speaker 2: Like even the way the Communists framed their propaganda was
Speaker 2: like Catholic. It was like a perverted iteration of it.
Speaker 1: But I mean, the the Inquisition didn't end until eighteen fourteen,
Speaker 1: eighteen fifteen, and the Catholic Church was basically the courts
Speaker 1: up until then. You know, they weren't they weren't the executioners,
Speaker 1: but yeah, they were the court. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And it's also even a guy who like even in
Speaker 2: a guy the only time he'd been in church was
Speaker 2: like when he was baptized and like his mom's funeral
Speaker 2: like that, I would like view the world in like
Speaker 2: Catholic terms, And he'd look at the church as like,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of the the instantation of like, you know,
Speaker 2: God's authority on earth, you know, like it's not there's
Speaker 2: I don't know Bieber's background. I bet that like a
Speaker 2: lot of Tories is like a Church of England type
Speaker 2: and he he doesn't really understand like like faith. It's
Speaker 2: like a conceptual sort of orientation. He probably use Americans
Speaker 2: as like a bunch of rednecks like me who like
Speaker 2: read the Bible all day and or idiots, and he
Speaker 2: use Catholics as like well they some of them don't
Speaker 2: even go to church, like not not even not understanding that.
Speaker 2: It's like it's something that's like interstitially bound up with
Speaker 2: like your entire sense of culture, like you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: you understand this, but it's it didn't matter that, uh,
Speaker 2: it didn't it didn't matter that like most that that
Speaker 2: that most people weren't going to church. I mean it's
Speaker 2: but it's also too I mean even if I mean
Speaker 2: even if uh you know, the action French say, uh
Speaker 2: during their zenith, you know, they kind of they got
Speaker 2: they got kind of edged out by like later like
Speaker 2: fascist and nationalists, uh militias in France. But you know,
Speaker 2: they they always made the point that like we're we're
Speaker 2: like a secular movement, but that doesn't mean you can
Speaker 2: attack the Mother Church, you know. I mean they they
Speaker 2: were willing to go to war to like protect uh
Speaker 2: you know, the Roman Church as uh as like the
Speaker 2: state religion of of of like what they viewed as
Speaker 2: like you know, the the ideal like French Republic moving forward.
Speaker 2: You know, like I'm trying to say, like Italy, where
Speaker 2: a lot of people did go to church, but it'll
Speaker 2: like the Kingdom of Italy under a Duce was basically
Speaker 2: a secular society. You know, it didn't matter that like
Speaker 2: you know, half of Italians were like in church every Sunday,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, it's it was totally different. And
Speaker 2: it's you know, like I said, it's it's something of
Speaker 2: a it's something of a blind spot. It's it's somewhat
Speaker 2: political and like deliberate and ideological, but it's something it's
Speaker 2: part of it too. It's like a cultural blind spot
Speaker 2: in this thing like too like it. You know, it's
Speaker 2: been redacted from this druga record that there's a huge
Speaker 2: outpouring of uh support for the nationalists cause in Ireland
Speaker 2: and uh the regime there of vale Era, like he
Speaker 2: had a problem he had to finish public opinion when
Speaker 2: I mean Ireland, just like the cleared outright neutrality on
Speaker 2: the on the question m a lot of even a
Speaker 2: lot of voters, you know, uh in the Republic who
Speaker 2: are basically like liberals, like why aren't you going to
Speaker 2: defend the church? What's the matter with you? You know? And
Speaker 2: uh and the blue shirts, you know, Duffy's blue shirts
Speaker 2: mean two and three thousand men signed up to go
Speaker 2: fight on the nationalist side, like all irishmen, I mean
Speaker 2: Irons entire Ireland is a tiny country. That's significant, you know.
Speaker 2: And in America, Cathlic media they give up signatures of
Speaker 2: school kids, you know, like they they got something like
Speaker 2: a million and a half signatures, like kids like progo
Speaker 2: school kids you know, saying like mister Rosevelt, while let
Speaker 2: it while we we love our sisters and and and
Speaker 2: and freeze, why why letting them be murdered by communists?
Speaker 2: You know, I mean like that, and and obviously like
Speaker 2: New Geork types like I was just you know that
Speaker 2: that that's you know that that's that that's exploitative, and
Speaker 2: that's that's just you know, propaganda by by by atrocity story.
Speaker 2: But I mean it's what he's saying that this wasn't happening.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the the Gallix Church doesn't have
Speaker 2: its own army. Stalin's famously said that, Okay, I mean
Speaker 2: like if you uh, the the church militant, it has
Speaker 2: to defend it, you know, I mean, and that's it,
Speaker 2: you know, as well as like as other as well
Speaker 2: as other you know, as well as other patriotic elements
Speaker 2: and and Orthodox guys and and you know in German
Speaker 2: prads who you know, realized what the stakes were. But
Speaker 2: it's also during the Great during World War One, there
Speaker 2: there became h there became like a deep uh that's
Speaker 2: when the divisions originally uh kind of became like insurmountable.
Speaker 2: Like it wasn't until the nineteen thre already, it wasn't
Speaker 2: until like the night that even the nine thirty sixth election,
Speaker 2: you actually had candidates for parliament saying, you know, like
Speaker 2: we will not accept you know, like uh a nationalist
Speaker 2: victory at the polls, like, well we will go to
Speaker 2: war and vice versa. But the uh people uh military officers, UH, farmers,
Speaker 2: you know, people uh like clergy, people like laymen, we're
Speaker 2: activing the church, they tended to side with uh like
Speaker 2: kaiser Reich, you know, and uh and and these kind
Speaker 2: of and these guys like urbanite uh Franco file types
Speaker 2: like tend to decide with uh, you know, with with
Speaker 2: with London, Paris, which is interesting. It's uh. I mean
Speaker 2: I I was making the point that, like the war
Speaker 2: in Syria, one of the reasons, I mean, Sod's a
Speaker 2: hero anyway, I mean, he's just a great man. But
Speaker 2: it was imperative for people on the right, you know,
Speaker 2: to to back Syria anyway they could, you know, in theater,
Speaker 2: uh and as well as you know, people in a
Speaker 2: position to like send money to to uh you know,
Speaker 2: the the the Syrians defending themselves in their gene from terrorism.
Speaker 2: You know, because that that that that that that that
Speaker 2: was not to the same degree and not to the same.
Speaker 2: Not it's not impactful in the way the Spanish War was.
Speaker 2: But that's you better believe that was a was a
Speaker 2: war of zechdieist in ideology and thank god you thank god,
Speaker 2: you know, a sad defeated is Alamic terrorism. You know,
Speaker 2: that's brought to his brought to his own soil by
Speaker 2: by America and Israel. I mean, that's always the case.
Speaker 2: I mean, the you can tell, you can tell it
Speaker 2: was on the right the wrong side of the things
Speaker 2: by the by the Ukraine War. And that's like a
Speaker 2: more that that that's a ridiculous example because it's literally
Speaker 2: just like this, it's literally just kind of like a
Speaker 2: human trafficking like Zionis mafia like propped up by you know,
Speaker 2: these like degenerates in Washington, you know, and they're they're
Speaker 2: just like there's like provoking a conflict against like all
Speaker 2: strategic reason. But the point is, like anybody, you know,
Speaker 2: you better believed that's an ideological war and that you know,
Speaker 2: that's that that's like the designated battleground for you know,
Speaker 2: the uh between uh the opposing camps that constitute you know,
Speaker 2: both sides of the of the Zeitgeisser Press I would
Speaker 2: have been far afield today on on and what I
Speaker 2: wanted to talk about. I hope that was okay with people.
Speaker 1: I got, I got, I got, I got you off
Speaker 1: track with the uh with the question about the goal
Speaker 1: that no, no.
Speaker 2: No, no, that's an import that's that's a fascinating uh.
Speaker 2: That's like something like Frederick ForSight thro like John McCurry
Speaker 2: would have written about it. Took a fascinating little little
Speaker 2: side note. What I want to get into, Uh, I'd
Speaker 2: like to get a little bit deeper and like theory.
Speaker 2: I mean, I know it's like my wheelhouse, and I
Speaker 2: don't subject people to it. I think it's boring, But
Speaker 2: I want to get a little bit into like the
Speaker 2: mice for next time, and like how like the counter
Speaker 2: Reformation like impacted political thought, which ultimately made the kind
Speaker 2: of like being the nationalist coalition possible. But we'll get
Speaker 2: into like the actual onset of hostilities like in the
Speaker 2: next episode that well, well we'll vote. There's a little
Speaker 2: background time to what I just referenced, but then kind
Speaker 2: of get into like the military situation and how it developed.
Speaker 2: If that's okay by you, it's your.
Speaker 1: S That sounds great to me. Yeah, they're maestro. I'm
Speaker 1: getting ready to actually go over some of his writings
Speaker 1: on the Inquisition on my show.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's what I was thinking about, like specifically,
Speaker 2: but it's I mean, he he's a very like heterodox
Speaker 2: like Chavoc thinker in some ways, but in terms of
Speaker 2: al Catholicism, like in foreign politics especially you know, in
Speaker 2: them in from from really you know, like eighteen twelve,
Speaker 2: eating thirteen, like onward like it, they can't really be overstated.
Speaker 2: I mean you know that because you're a learning guy.
Speaker 2: But this was great, man, And again I really really
Speaker 2: appreciate you giving me the platform.
Speaker 1: All right to what we do every time. Get plugs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I'm still on I'm still on Twitter.
Speaker 2: Who knows for how long I shut down my telegram
Speaker 2: channel find beings and just becoming like a huge hassle.
Speaker 2: I know, I made everybody upset. I will launch another one,
Speaker 2: but I got to get things in order for some
Speaker 2: of my other projects. I've got to catch up on
Speaker 2: these long form manuscripts that I had a neglect because
Speaker 2: I've been you know, I mean, I've been busy with
Speaker 2: them stuff. It wasn't just as neglecting things, but the
Speaker 2: I am in fact shooting channel footage. It's an involved process.
Speaker 2: Actual like long episodes are probably only gonna come out
Speaker 2: want like bi monthly, but I'm going to start shooting
Speaker 2: like two and three minute videos like and will drop
Speaker 2: those weekly. Okay, But there's a lot that goes into
Speaker 2: what I'm not saying that play Martyr. I'm saying that
Speaker 2: to people. Don't think I'm being like slack and uh,
Speaker 2: season two of Mind Phaser, I I'm recording the next
Speaker 2: episode with my dear friend Giles tomorrow night. That's going
Speaker 2: to be the last episode of season one and season
Speaker 2: two with the pod is going to change substantially, but
Speaker 2: I believe everybody will approve of the ways in which
Speaker 2: it's changing. Like we're not We're We're gonna stick to
Speaker 2: the same as of topics. So there's other things I
Speaker 2: want to emphasize and you'll see, Okay, and I'll give
Speaker 2: it a write up on my substick so to kind
Speaker 2: of hit people to what I'm thinking. But yeah, and
Speaker 2: you can find me on substick at real Thomas seven
Speaker 2: seven seven dot substick dot com. And that's all I
Speaker 2: got for.
Speaker 1: Now, Thomas, until the next time, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man.
Speaker 1: Likewise, I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show.
Speaker 1: I'm here with Tom seven seven seven again Part three
Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War. How are you done?
Speaker 2: Very well man, thanks again for making this happen. I've
Speaker 2: been thinking a lot about the revolution in military affairs
Speaker 2: and what people trace its origins to. That's not just
Speaker 2: a discrete question of interest to military science types or
Speaker 2: you know, like war college types who you know, study
Speaker 2: this kind of thing for its own sake, not just
Speaker 2: to understand the things for the sake of posterity, but
Speaker 2: also you know, game future conflicts. But it relates in
Speaker 2: peculiar ways to the conditions that you know, power this
Speaker 2: decisions of an almost purely political nature, like the true
Speaker 2: the true revolution in military affairs was something that occurred
Speaker 2: on the command to control side, owing to the owing
Speaker 2: to the information age and the advent of it, I believe.
Speaker 2: But its origins lie in blitzkrieg or what some people
Speaker 2: commonly understand is blitzkrieg and how that doctrine came to develop.
Speaker 2: The best explanation of what the controversy is, there's Basil
Speaker 2: Ladell Hearts, who I think is something of a problematic historian,
Speaker 2: but he does flesh out what the kind of the
Speaker 2: key variables are in in you know, material to the
Speaker 2: the question. John Mierschein, I find him more accessible. Mirshmm
Speaker 2: is highly theoretical, but he's less deliberately esoteric than somebody
Speaker 2: like heart. And he presents these things, uh ironically because
Speaker 2: I think one of Meershimer's blind spots is the political
Speaker 2: conditions which underlie warfare at all times and what what
Speaker 2: the interplay is. I mean, he's very much a clouset
Speaker 2: whitsy and he's also very much, you know, a quantitative thinker.
Speaker 2: I mean, I got all like tremendous respect for him,
Speaker 2: but that part ways with him in basic terms in
Speaker 2: his understanding of the interplay of political and military affairs.
Speaker 2: But his book Conventional Deterrence, Okay, it made it was
Speaker 2: it was highly impactful during the late Cold War. I
Speaker 2: h people always asking me for sources and things, all right,
Speaker 2: The Journal of the Atomic Scientists. You can find most
Speaker 2: of that the archives for free if you dig deep, okay,
Speaker 2: on line. Now it's become kind of this like like
Speaker 2: you know, pointless kind of piecen like environmentalists kind of
Speaker 2: journal that no one takes seriously, but it had real relevance,
Speaker 2: you know, from the eyes of our era until you know,
Speaker 2: November ninetheteen eighty nine, frankly and the final phase of
Speaker 2: the Cold War. It started running a lot of informed
Speaker 2: pieces by people like Meerscheimer about the re emergence of
Speaker 2: of of conventional forces as you know, a key variable,
Speaker 2: you know, owing not just to to to emergent deeper parodies.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's just like a more you know,
Speaker 2: the the information revolution it led to just more complete
Speaker 2: understanding of you know, the interplay of of conventional and
Speaker 2: nuclear forces in in a few in a then future
Speaker 2: conflict with you know, then extant platforms. But this piece
Speaker 2: that I'm site, I'm referencing and generally a time of scientists.
Speaker 2: It's basically a condensed version of uh near Simmer's book
Speaker 2: Conventional Deterrence, which was published in nineteen eighty two, eighty
Speaker 2: two or eighty three, and obviously he the article it
Speaker 2: talks to from from you know, then current like from
Speaker 2: the headline's issues relating to the able Archer era and
Speaker 2: stuff and and the person to deployment and the UH
Speaker 2: the the Minuteman system and things. But the book Conventional
Speaker 2: Deterrence remains relevant because it's about the best statement of
Speaker 2: the controversy. The historians debate on the question of Blitzkrieg,
Speaker 2: Like basically it boils down to this, you know, was
Speaker 2: Blitzkrieg this revolutionary doctrine that was conceptualized in in purely
Speaker 2: theoretical terms before the Battle of France, specifically you know,
Speaker 2: whereby uh whereby people like Heinzkderian and uh people like
Speaker 2: uh Werner Gunn Fritz, were you know, understood that masked
Speaker 2: armor was gonna supplant conventional infantry, you know, as the
Speaker 2: as the the spare punt of of of of ground
Speaker 2: assault operations. Or was Blitzkrieg this kind of uh, you know,
Speaker 2: technique that developed owing to the unique exigencies of the
Speaker 2: modern battlefield conditions, and you know, as uh as as
Speaker 2: as as the French collapse and as the mainline resistance
Speaker 2: you know, kind of rapidly just evaporated at points where
Speaker 2: masked armor was employed. The great effect, you know, was
Speaker 2: was that just basically like you know, German battlefield commanders
Speaker 2: who who were strongly oriented towards what's called mission arrayed
Speaker 2: tactics anyway, and had an inherent you know, kind of
Speaker 2: tendency towards experimentation and flexibility. You know, they just adopted
Speaker 2: these things like in theater, and then you know, very organically, ah,
Speaker 2: a combined arms doctrine developed, you know, like owing to
Speaker 2: trial and error under the critical conditions of combat or
Speaker 2: you know, was was it again like just a just
Speaker 2: a a theoretical coup, you know, owing to kind of
Speaker 2: the latent uh brilliance of the German general stat And
Speaker 2: of course people favored the latter. That's really I mean
Speaker 2: that that sounds on it's face it might be particularly
Speaker 2: credible in like general terms. But the you know, the
Speaker 2: the Germans, the Prussian Army, and especially if you the
Speaker 2: Wehrmacht as the direct legacy of the Prussian Army, which
Speaker 2: I do and I'm not gonna be disputed. They invented
Speaker 2: the staff structure, Okay, the United States, the UK, France, Japan,
Speaker 2: everybody imitated the Prussian staff structure, where you know, you
Speaker 2: have a permanent general staff that constantly studies in games warfare.
Speaker 2: And they also pioneered war gaming as we know it, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, like discreet scenario building with coded variables too,
Speaker 2: you know, tailored to mimic likely battlefield conditions and things.
Speaker 2: So in the German case, it's a more credible postulate
Speaker 2: than it would be you know, as applied to there
Speaker 2: as applied to other military cultures in a speculative capacity.
Speaker 2: If you accept uh that blitzkrieg was a discreet doctrine
Speaker 2: that emerged, you know, from theoretical quarters of the Rmoncht,
Speaker 2: you also basically like like a concominant like claim they're
Speaker 2: in is that well, like Hitler sabotaged this by micromanagement
Speaker 2: or Hitler was basically like, you know, a siege oriented commander.
Speaker 2: You know, he was uh, basically cautious in critical capacities,
Speaker 2: you know, and uh, I basically agree with that, but
Speaker 2: not for the reasons most people do. If you learn
Speaker 2: the way Hitler behaved in in in a warlord role,
Speaker 2: he wasn't this crazy, reckless gambler like a lot of
Speaker 2: core historians or Hollywood like make it out, you know,
Speaker 2: quite the contrary. He was basically like a conservative German
Speaker 2: like siege commander, you know, and when objectives were reached,
Speaker 2: you know, he he was obsessed with protecting flanks and
Speaker 2: you know, constituting forces such that they could defend in depth,
Speaker 2: you know, if necessary. But in any event, one of
Speaker 2: the reasons why I think that the whole controversy was
Speaker 2: kind of a fool's errand it's because German armored doctrine
Speaker 2: it's testing ground was the Spanish Civil War. Okay, and
Speaker 2: von Toma, who uh, as we'll get into. He's an
Speaker 2: underappreciated German commander more so than some of the other
Speaker 2: general officers which revisionists, uh, you know have kind of
Speaker 2: discovered weren't higher praise than they were afforded other for
Speaker 2: political reason and just because they were like overlooked in
Speaker 2: favor of these more kind of dashing characters like Rommel,
Speaker 2: or like Drrian, or like went manach thing i'd put uh,
Speaker 2: I put Vontma. I consider him the same class as
Speaker 2: uh Rick Toffin, as Ferdinand Schorner with the last German
Speaker 2: Field Marshall ever. But he uh, he was a tactical genius,
Speaker 2: I believe. And that's the other reason I like that
Speaker 2: book by Hoffman Stalins Worb Extermination. It's not just because
Speaker 2: it's a it's great scholarship, but he makes that point
Speaker 2: in some of his other stuff too, that Ferdinand Schorners
Speaker 2: it was a great battlefield commander, but in any event,
Speaker 2: armor was dispositive. In the Spanish Civil War and the nationalists,
Speaker 2: you know, the the Franco's forces, I mean, if you
Speaker 2: want to think of them as nationalists, fascists, you know,
Speaker 2: the like about the constellation of of of uh of
Speaker 2: of just fascists who had general sympathy for you know,
Speaker 2: the for the church and and for the you know,
Speaker 2: and for the for the traditional regime political and social.
Speaker 2: But they like however you want to describe on it was.
Speaker 2: It was this kind of confederation of of of of
Speaker 2: different forces but sometimes competing loyalties and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: like we talked about before, before the loof Offa came
Speaker 2: to their aid, you know, not just to literally transport
Speaker 2: the forces and being they had across the entranean c
Speaker 2: to the battle space, but all you know, they they
Speaker 2: were they were in dire straits and one of the
Speaker 2: reasons why they were just out gunned was because, uh,
Speaker 2: the the enemy had uh twenty six tanks provided by
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union, and those tanks were obsolete by the
Speaker 2: admin of World War Two, but they were they were
Speaker 2: in someways perfectly suited to the combat on the Spanish battlefield.
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons I emphasized Von Toma, It's
Speaker 2: not just because I've got you know, sort of like
Speaker 2: a nerve's interest in the ground element of condor leadings.
Speaker 2: I think it's cool. But out of all the men
Speaker 2: that you know, Hitler and you know, the the OKW
Speaker 2: could have deployed, you know, to command that element, they
Speaker 2: chose von Toma. You know who was this guy who
Speaker 2: was a student of on Sikh, who was an incredibly
Speaker 2: progressive commander in terms of his understanding of combined arms
Speaker 2: and just an all around like really well rounded guy.
Speaker 2: You know. They didn't just drop you know, like some
Speaker 2: you know some some tried and tested you know, Prussian
Speaker 2: infantry commander, you know, and that's from van Tooma. Also,
Speaker 2: like he was he was knighted owing to uh you know,
Speaker 2: World War One, and I mean he was, he was,
Speaker 2: he was granted the title for heroism, you know, like
Speaker 2: he wasn't born an aristocrat. So I mean this was
Speaker 2: a guy who really really had a ship together in
Speaker 2: command roles, you know, but he he uh he one second,
Speaker 2: he fought on basically he fought literally not basically, he
Speaker 2: fought in every front of the First World War two,
Speaker 2: which was rare. He fought he joined the Bavarian Army
Speaker 2: an outside of hostilities. Uh. He fought on the Western
Speaker 2: Front and remittently finally fought the Battle of the Marn
Speaker 2: and was captured by American and French forces. If he
Speaker 2: gave a pow for the you know, the final two
Speaker 2: months of the war. But you know, he fought on
Speaker 2: the Eastern Front extensively and most men had not, with
Speaker 2: some exceptions, you know, spent like basically equal time like
Speaker 2: in the East and in the west, you know, like
Speaker 2: he fought in Romania. He fought throughout the Serbian campaign,
Speaker 2: you know, very well on a guy. He was awarded
Speaker 2: the the the Order of Max with Joseph by the
Speaker 2: Bavarian Army, which was like the you know, his equivalent
Speaker 2: of the Blue Max basically, you know, but it uh it,
Speaker 2: it was equivalent of the Knight's Cross. And that's why
Speaker 2: he that's why he got you know, the the the
Speaker 2: the honorific in his name. But he uh van Brauschich,
Speaker 2: who is kind of an under examined commander, I mean everybody,
Speaker 2: the falling out between him and Hitler, you know, in
Speaker 2: the wake of the very much being a hall stenter
Speaker 2: being halted in Moscow. It's kind of what he's most
Speaker 2: known for, as well as there's some strange intrigues he
Speaker 2: seems to have been involved in, you know, relating to the
Speaker 2: July twentieth plot. But other than that, he's kind of
Speaker 2: treated as a footnote, you know, because for the remainder
Speaker 2: of the war, like you know, he'd been he'd he'd
Speaker 2: been castured out, you know, owing to him. The fear
Speaker 2: is loss of confidence in him. But he was a
Speaker 2: farmer dynamic character in at least in the terms of
Speaker 2: you know, his profession and how he pursued it. Then
Speaker 2: people often acknowledge so he was uh, you know, he
Speaker 2: was he basically Van Brousa said, had you know, cultivated
Speaker 2: Ontoma's talents by by you know, asking of him they
Speaker 2: become an expert in arman warfare, which I assume Ontma
Speaker 2: had been kind of pursuing his own course of learning
Speaker 2: in that capacity anyway, I mean, just like going to
Speaker 2: the battlefield record and everything else. He ended up commanding, uh,
Speaker 2: he ended up commanding seventeen pans are later on in
Speaker 2: the Operation Barbarossa, he fought at the Battle of Moscow.
Speaker 2: Then he was trying. He received the Knight's Cross, the
Speaker 2: Iron Cross. Subsequently he was transferred to North Africa and
Speaker 2: he was captured at the in the aftermath of the
Speaker 2: Second Battle of l a Lamine. And that's why like uh,
Speaker 2: hearts like uh in the German General's Talk and like
Speaker 2: all the hearts like uh, you know, kind of books
Speaker 2: on on Hrmacht's leadership, like Montoma like features looms large
Speaker 2: because he was used frankly in the custody of of
Speaker 2: of the British army for years, you know, and he
Speaker 2: he developed something of a rapport with these guys, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean it, uh, which is interesting. So I mean
Speaker 2: some people would say, like, well, you know, that gives
Speaker 2: him kind of an outsized presence in the historical record.
Speaker 2: I don't really think so. And there's plenty of especially
Speaker 2: after the cessation of hostilities, I mean, after the day
Speaker 2: of defeat, there was plenty of There's plenty of surviving
Speaker 2: general officers who you know, could have been debriefed all
Speaker 2: day and they would have been happy to have that
Speaker 2: either a lot in lieu of the gallows or you know,
Speaker 2: being unceremoniously uh. You know, it's kind of like cast
Speaker 2: out as on persons. Plus to the British whatever we can,
Speaker 2: whatever we can say about them, they I mean, they're
Speaker 2: they're not a bunch of jokers when it comes to
Speaker 2: the capacity to evaluate military talent and command level. I
Speaker 2: think anybody would acknowledge that, regardless, regardless of their feelings
Speaker 2: about Old Blighty otherwise. But Ontoma ended up in Spain
Speaker 2: in October thirty six. The first shipment at German tanks
Speaker 2: was forty one ponzer Comwagen type one pans Are one tanks. Okay,
Speaker 2: and like the T twenty six tanks that they were
Speaker 2: deployed to combat, they were obsolete by you know, ninety
Speaker 2: thirty nine forty but it again for the for the
Speaker 2: Spanish uh battlefield, they they were perfectly suited. And also
Speaker 2: the Germans, as the pans Are two had already been developed.
Speaker 2: The pans Are one was being used largely as a
Speaker 2: training tank, like by the Wehrmacht because it, I mean,
Speaker 2: for various reasons and including it was it was just
Speaker 2: a simpler machine, you know, and it was uh you
Speaker 2: gotta understand too, like most men at this time, like
Speaker 2: it never even like driven a car, you know, so
Speaker 2: it's I even today, I mean with all the Advan
Speaker 2: and somebody would have and you know, learning how to
Speaker 2: fight in armor and you know, like a contemporary tank.
Speaker 2: I mean, imagine, imagine a guy who's never even bending
Speaker 2: like an automobile, you know, like it. It's and plus,
Speaker 2: fighting an armor is scary. It's claust aphobic. You're in,
Speaker 2: you're inhaling diesel fumes, it's loud as hell like in
Speaker 2: those days. Your visibility is compromised, like if you get hit,
Speaker 2: you're probably gonna burn to death or you know, get
Speaker 2: your face ripped apart by shrapnel. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 2: no joke, you know. So training an armor is not
Speaker 2: just like teaching somebody to fire a gun, or or
Speaker 2: to dry or to drive a shitty. I mean, I
Speaker 2: that should go without saying. But I maybe it's because
Speaker 2: I mean maybe it's because like I I don't like,
Speaker 2: I'm claust aphobic in a real way and my room
Speaker 2: went on. One horror is being burnt alive. But I
Speaker 2: I've always thought, uh, I've always I've always thought it
Speaker 2: would be uniquely uh scary to fight in that. And
Speaker 2: I don't generally have a fear of higher situations. But
Speaker 2: the total, uh, the total number of pans are ones
Speaker 2: to reach Spain was seventy two as regards forces and
Speaker 2: being by the end of I still between nine thirty
Speaker 2: six thirty nine of total one hundred and twenty two
Speaker 2: were deployed, you know, including like replacements and everything else,
Speaker 2: you know, like going to owing to attrition and going
Speaker 2: to you know, just a mechanical failure in things. But
Speaker 2: and like we mentioned, uh that the Nationalists were outgunned
Speaker 2: by the Soviet T twenty six, which were fitted with
Speaker 2: a forty five millimeters main gun, which was heavy heavy firepower,
Speaker 2: uh for the era the pans Are one, it's armament
Speaker 2: was two M thirteen light machine guns. It was a
Speaker 2: truly light tank, like in fact, like pie today's metric
Speaker 2: or even by the metric you know of uh of
Speaker 2: you know, by the by the metric of you know,
Speaker 2: four or five years later, even by the mid forties,
Speaker 2: it'd be a like it'd be a like it'd be
Speaker 2: a light armored vehicle. It wouldn't even be considered a tank,
Speaker 2: you know, and owing to these only this disparity of
Speaker 2: of arms and you know, fire power rather uh, like
Speaker 2: Spanish officers started agitating for the for the platform to
Speaker 2: be retrofitted with a BREDA twenty millimeter main gun. You know,
Speaker 2: Don Tomas strongly opposed this. You know, he said, you're
Speaker 2: gonna compromise the integrity of the hull. Uh, You're gonna
Speaker 2: literally have to drill holes that expose the gunner, you know,
Speaker 2: the being targeted at visual range. You know, it's it's
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a it's a it's a fool's errand
Speaker 2: you know, and it was and that's important, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean it's not the Spanish were thinking about this,
Speaker 2: you know, like you know, like like like like like
Speaker 2: a like an infantry commander would you know, like we
Speaker 2: we just need to match firepower. You know, it's Montoma understood. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of what goes into a lot
Speaker 2: of what goes into combined arms warfare, I mean always
Speaker 2: then and now, but also specifically, I mean, yeah, the
Speaker 2: German General staff has oriented towards you know, warfare is
Speaker 2: the advance of fire. But it's not you know, packing
Speaker 2: as much firepower onto onto onto a platform, I mean
Speaker 2: for its own sake, you know, because you're you know,
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's some kind of it's not going
Speaker 2: to caliber race with the enemy is misguided, but it's
Speaker 2: understandable why they would think that way. But interesting, what
Speaker 2: ultimately was agreed upon.
Speaker 3: Was UH.
Speaker 2: Montoma discovered and this was abided because he pretty rapidly
Speaker 2: won the confidence of the Spaniards. We'll get into that.
Speaker 2: Interesting that paradigm and kind of interplay the sociology of
Speaker 2: it in a minute. But UH, what was most effective
Speaker 2: was UH have one tank per section for per company size,
Speaker 2: like a tank section would be you know, about fifteen
Speaker 2: ten to fifteen panthers, like one for every one. UH.
Speaker 2: One retrofitted thirty millimeter gun or twenty millimeters main gun
Speaker 2: for every fifteen ten to fifteen panthers. Was what made
Speaker 2: it most effective because you know they could you wouldn't
Speaker 2: you wouldn't sacrifice you know, the your defensive armor, you know,
Speaker 2: but you could bring the fight power to bear that
Speaker 2: was required you know, in in in killing enemy tanks
Speaker 2: or you know, assaulting hardened targets. But UH was also
Speaker 2: revolutionary was Comps Group TOMA as it came to be.
Speaker 2: It was reinforced by the three tank companies were reinforced
Speaker 2: by an anti tank section. You know, because they think
Speaker 2: of eight anti tank guns, the early models, which again
Speaker 2: this is another this this platform popped up in the
Speaker 2: Second World War some but it was basically, you know,
Speaker 2: obsolescent because they didn't have the power to kill you know,
Speaker 2: the main battle tanks like the TV four, it was
Speaker 2: the Ponzer abdur Khan and uh. One of the things
Speaker 2: people today, unless they're kind of students of World War
Speaker 2: two or like private service type guys, the advent of
Speaker 2: a main battle tank you know, which is uh, you know,
Speaker 2: which which can function you know, somewhat like an assault gun,
Speaker 2: you know, has the power to kill enemy tanks, you know,
Speaker 2: like going to its only its penetration capabilities and things,
Speaker 2: you know, like having that in on one platform. Like
Speaker 2: that's that that's a post RUAR two innovation. I mean
Speaker 2: it can't. It started coming about during the Second World War.
Speaker 2: But you know, your tanks, your assault guns are dedicated
Speaker 2: you know, anti tank platforms. They these were like discrete,
Speaker 2: discreetly purposed set pieces. Which is interesting. But but Tom
Speaker 2: was deployed as an obst latnant, which is a lieutenant colonels. Approximately,
Speaker 2: Franco appointed him quote tank tank inspector, which seems on
Speaker 2: its face largely symbolic of a title, especially when you
Speaker 2: consider that there wasn't a dedicated tank element, you know,
Speaker 2: armored element in the Spanish army, because there wasn't in
Speaker 2: any army really except you know, France and Germany, and
Speaker 2: then in both cases it was nascense in Italy too.
Speaker 2: But Uh, this he Ventoma enjoyed tremendous authority, and there's
Speaker 2: a lot of surviving correspondence in the form of telegrams
Speaker 2: between von Toma, Franco's staff, Franco himself. One of the
Speaker 2: primary liaisons between between on Toma and Uh and the
Speaker 2: Spanish high command was Uh, a German guy who'd come
Speaker 2: up through the ad there, but he joined up with
Speaker 2: the Phalangeis outfit and he was fighting in Spain against
Speaker 2: the communists before you know, the Reich even deployed forces,
Speaker 2: and he ended up working as Montoma's interpreter. It's hard
Speaker 2: to find out a lot about him, but he's a
Speaker 2: fascinating character. If I can find out more about him.
Speaker 2: Adolf Klaus was his name, I'll include it. But he
Speaker 2: became onntma's official interpreter and despite the inherent tentions, frankly,
Speaker 2: there was something of a classic culture is like stant
Speaker 2: not just because Montoma was kind of the consummate like
Speaker 2: Teutonic officer, like very uncompromising, very rigid, you know, very
Speaker 2: very much a task master. The Spanish army was tough,
Speaker 2: like nobody would say that it was not, and I
Speaker 2: mean frankly, they would not have undertaken this crusading as
Speaker 2: the Communists facing the kinds of odds that were extant,
Speaker 2: like were they not very game tough men, but they
Speaker 2: were all fucked up. Their army was not at all professionalized.
Speaker 2: You know, you still had a lot of aristocrats in
Speaker 2: in in the officer ranks who felt entitled the things.
Speaker 2: You know, it was rife with corruption, you know. Uh,
Speaker 2: there was all kinds of favoritism you know that had
Speaker 2: nothiing to do with uh, with an actual battlefield performance
Speaker 2: and suitability for command. There's vestigial trappings that code of
Speaker 2: Hidalgo and on Toma issued a scathing report when he'd
Speaker 2: only been in country a couple of months. Among other things,
Speaker 2: he came to notice that although there's many volunteers, like
Speaker 2: for the tank branch, a bunch of other men, it's
Speaker 2: simply been ordered there by Spanish commanders who wanted to
Speaker 2: get rid of them. You know, so I will send him.
Speaker 2: This guy's a trouble maker. Were like I don't like him,
Speaker 2: or like maybe I want to even screw his wife
Speaker 2: or something. I know, I'll send him, to send him
Speaker 2: to the Cound of Religion. And von Toma pulled no punches,
Speaker 2: and he uh, he threatened to leave. He threatened to
Speaker 2: in his words, uh, you know, just just just like
Speaker 2: resign command and leave. And he was able to convince
Speaker 2: Franco or more properly, I mean, I mean Franco was
Speaker 2: a Franco new what side his bread was buttered on.
Speaker 2: He recognized he needed the Germans and he needed Vontoma.
Speaker 2: But the whoever in the high command were, you know,
Speaker 2: his primary points of contact, he was able to finesse
Speaker 2: them to you know that. Look like, whoever the men
Speaker 2: you send me, they've got to be the constant the
Speaker 2: Ponzer group. They've got to be comfortable with a variety
Speaker 2: of functions and roles of a type that you are
Speaker 2: not habituated to and probably are probably are our occupational
Speaker 2: functions of first impression, you know, like I said, they
Speaker 2: had to be psychologically tough and fortified to deal with
Speaker 2: the inherent difficulties of fighting and armor. They uh, he
Speaker 2: said that just in in in raw, like staff needs
Speaker 2: or personnel needs. You know, when Thomas said there there
Speaker 2: had to be at least fifty volunteer troops posted at
Speaker 2: all times to the tank school, you know, the tank
Speaker 2: training around on Tone was overseeing twenty five dedicated gunner trainees,
Speaker 2: twenty five dedicated drivers you know, being uh you know,
Speaker 2: after a after their initial training subjective, they should then
Speaker 2: undertake a four week course, a combat training course, upon
Speaker 2: completion of which they could be immediately posted a front
Speaker 2: as needed as replacements to be a constant rotation of
Speaker 2: tank crews you know, who are highly trained in every
Speaker 2: every function of armored warfare. You know, the the to
Speaker 2: get her, you know, they they were habituated and they'd
Speaker 2: be accompanied by their officers or n CEOs you know
Speaker 2: that had overseen them during the training cycle. And Montmo
Speaker 2: insisted upon this too. This is a general postulate that
Speaker 2: was to become doctrine squad CEOs who are who would
Speaker 2: be NCOs in the Spanish Army I believe, you know,
Speaker 2: like senior n c os and company commanders who would
Speaker 2: be officers they they when told says they had to
Speaker 2: always be present with their squad and company actively leading
Speaker 2: the men from the front. This was not this could
Speaker 2: you know? This was not negotiable. And he concluded this
Speaker 2: report by stating openly that if the tank section cannot
Speaker 2: make up for the casualties that you know they're going
Speaker 2: to suffer with troops and commanders and n c os
Speaker 2: who were both tactically and technically proficient, that we're going
Speaker 2: to lose the war. You know, It's just there's no
Speaker 2: two ways about it. You know, this war is going
Speaker 2: to be one or lost with the ground element, and uh,
Speaker 2: it's gonna be one by proper deployment of the of armor. Okay,
Speaker 2: And now I hope it's coming into focus. Why I
Speaker 2: subjected the listeners to that extended introduction about the revolution
Speaker 2: and military affairs and Meersheimer's postulates they're in and the
Speaker 2: you know that what's what can be thought of as
Speaker 2: the Blitz Greek controversy. Okay, because what I am positing
Speaker 2: is in rebuttal to both of those perspectives, as I'm
Speaker 2: sure people are discerning. I'm not any kind of military
Speaker 2: expert at all. Okay, but I do know something about history,
Speaker 2: and I do know something about you know, the Vermont,
Speaker 2: all right, and I think, uh, I know something about
Speaker 2: military science as much as uh, you know, like a
Speaker 2: layman who's not like a game theorist or like a
Speaker 2: prior service officer type. Can you know, people are welcome
Speaker 2: to take me to task for this, and I mean it,
Speaker 2: you know, I make myself available anybody who wants to
Speaker 2: debate these things that I propose. But you know, like
Speaker 2: I said, I'm relying upon the direct testimony of the
Speaker 2: participants to these events and uh you know the uh
Speaker 2: and relying upon you know, the conditions leading to the
Speaker 2: outcome of disengagement. You know, it's I don't think it
Speaker 2: can be said that I'm speculating. Lontma also, and again
Speaker 2: this is something that people generally only discussed from the
Speaker 2: iconics the Battle of France. I realized the first open
Speaker 2: ended deployment of the Fairmacht was in Poland. But Poland
Speaker 2: didn't have a meaningful uh you know, tank section. So
Speaker 2: we're talking about you know, modern combined arms between you know,
Speaker 2: between forces where it's like a general parody. You know,
Speaker 2: technological as well as numerical are our r analysis begins.
Speaker 2: In nineteen forty Lontma directed that tank companies can only
Speaker 2: could not operate in isolation from one another. They had utilized,
Speaker 2: they had utilized massed firepower and advance of fire and addition,
Speaker 2: the transport company and the supporting mobile workshop and maintenance company.
Speaker 2: You know, they had to be maintained at optimal capabilities
Speaker 2: and deployed to the front at all times and support
Speaker 2: the assault element, you know, regardless of the drain that
Speaker 2: this is gonna you know, place on on the regular
Speaker 2: infantry and on you know, the corp of engineers and
Speaker 2: anybody else. You know, this is yours, this is your
Speaker 2: assault element. This is the share punk of your assault element.
Speaker 2: You know, it has to take absolute priority and that yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: we take that for granted today. But again this is
Speaker 2: this is nineteen thirty six in Spain. Okay, armored armored
Speaker 2: warfare as we know it doesn't exist yet, you know,
Speaker 2: and this is four years this is three three years
Speaker 2: and some months before the Battle of France. Okay, so
Speaker 2: this is remarkably sick. I spoke a moment ago about
Speaker 2: there's a lot said, especially because you know, relations were
Speaker 2: not always particularly amiable. You know, between the Germans and
Speaker 2: their Latin allies, whether we're talking about you know, the
Speaker 2: Italians of the Spaniards. A lot of people insinuate that
Speaker 2: there was a kind of like ugly racial prejudice at
Speaker 2: work there. I think that's overstated what came to be
Speaker 2: known perhaps kind of you know. I mean, it's what
Speaker 2: came you know as a Tomorrow affair, which seems to
Speaker 2: overstate the significance of it, you know, by characterizing it
Speaker 2: as with some sort of scandal. On December thirty first,
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty eight, but Tolma sent an urgent telegram to
Speaker 2: Infantry Colonel Ricardo from that this the tamer he was
Speaker 2: the primary liaison with Franco's high command or the equivalent
Speaker 2: of a general staff okay, and in some basic capacity,
Speaker 2: and uh, this was going into the final phase of
Speaker 2: the war. Vntoma demanded know on certain terms to be
Speaker 2: infeigned beforehand of any change of an operational or logistical nature,
Speaker 2: or any personnel related matter or policy. And this had
Speaker 2: all these things that to be subject to his view
Speaker 2: or approval, you know, And he reiterated, I, you know,
Speaker 2: I was appointed by Franco his tank inspector. You know,
Speaker 2: and is is a demand is not immediately obeyed, I
Speaker 2: will withdraw my contribution. In his words, So again this
Speaker 2: is him threatening to throw his hands up and resign.
Speaker 2: You could read that as him being a prima donna
Speaker 2: of a sort. I think he was entirely serious. I
Speaker 2: don't think that can be disputed. And again you're looking
Speaker 2: at this army, which you know in the Spaniards, which
Speaker 2: again has some very core of very game tough men,
Speaker 2: but it's unbelievably and most comically corrupt, you know. Uh,
Speaker 2: and it's only kind of held together at the level
Speaker 2: of a general officers by people like Tom Marie, who
Speaker 2: were you know and later surrouno sooner who will get
Speaker 2: into it. Was a great man. But uh, you know,
Speaker 2: cracking the whip on these people was uh what was essential?
Speaker 2: You know. It doesn't owe to some kind of like
Speaker 2: Teutonic racism against you know, Latins or something, which, uh,
Speaker 2: that kind of interpretation has become increasingly common. I've noticed,
Speaker 2: you know, even in like military history, which is supposed
Speaker 2: to be just kind of like hard and fast accounts
Speaker 2: of the facts, you know, and the uh, the quantifiable
Speaker 2: side of things. I think that's bullshit. You know, I mean,
Speaker 2: that's why I but it's also there's what came of
Speaker 2: of uh the Thomery memo was or telegram by Tomac Gott.
Speaker 2: Whatever he wanted, he got everything he wanted, you know,
Speaker 2: and he he basically became the de facto you know,
Speaker 2: commander armored forces for nationalist Spain, you know. And that's
Speaker 2: that goes to short of the degree to which the
Speaker 2: Wehrmacht was the key to you know, uh nationalist victory
Speaker 2: in the war. It wasn't you know, the loof Off
Speaker 2: made a tremendous contribution. And and like we discussed, you know,
Speaker 2: in the previous two episodes, Erhart Milch was was it
Speaker 2: was a was a military genius and an incredible commander
Speaker 2: and one of the greatest air commanders of all time.
Speaker 2: I take nothing away from that, but it was you know,
Speaker 2: wars are won, you know, by by the ground element, Okay,
Speaker 2: they are, and this was essential to that effort. And
Speaker 2: we're not just talking about, you know, with without von Tolma,
Speaker 2: like there is no there is no there is no
Speaker 2: Spanish armored element. You know, you're throwing your you're throwing
Speaker 2: Spanish industry at these t twenty six tanks, they're being
Speaker 2: cut to pieces. You know, is the fact not only
Speaker 2: that he was able to constitute you know, armored force
Speaker 2: or before there had been nothing, but he managed to
Speaker 2: do this really with a handful of of pans or ones,
Speaker 2: armed with a couple of light machine guns and not
Speaker 2: particularly durable armor. And he was able to convince a
Speaker 2: much of proud Spaniards to basically like hand him like
Speaker 2: absolute authority over the over the entire enterprise. That's that's
Speaker 2: nothing sort of remarkable. I don't don't think it could
Speaker 2: be contested, but there's uh, subsequent and particularly in like
Speaker 2: the final months of the war in ninet thirty nine,
Speaker 2: they developed this kind of like genuinely amicable cordiality, at
Speaker 2: least as far as you can discern through the language
Speaker 2: barrier and through their you know, brevity of of these
Speaker 2: written communicats and telegrams between Montona and tamer But the uh,
Speaker 2: the rest of these Spanish officers too, who initially had
Speaker 2: a you know, been not out and out hostile because
Speaker 2: they realized the various situation and that they needed they
Speaker 2: needed the Germans. But you know, they certainly Spaniards are
Speaker 2: a proud people. If nothing else and it was a
Speaker 2: better pill for them to swallow a seed control a
Speaker 2: Veramacht officer in that way, although there's no shame in that,
Speaker 2: you know, the Vermont was the best and they're they're
Speaker 2: the greatest of all time. By the end of the war, ultimately,
Speaker 2: Spanish tankers they were undergoing a sixty day course basic
Speaker 2: course for all personnel, you know, those uh, those who
Speaker 2: were trained to be drivers as well as those training
Speaker 2: to be gunners. It was thirty days of theoretical training,
Speaker 2: thirty days of practice duration and then UH intensive combat
Speaker 2: training and then deployment to the front as needed. So
Speaker 2: there's a constant you know, like as has discussed a
Speaker 2: moment ago, there was a constant flow of replacements, you
Speaker 2: know who UH had at least cohesion within the squad
Speaker 2: of a KI and that only comes from you know,
Speaker 2: living and UH fighting together ordinarily because they'd gone to
Speaker 2: the training cycle. And a lot of these men were
Speaker 2: combat veterans too, just not of you know, obviously, not
Speaker 2: of fighting an armor. You know, some were, some had
Speaker 2: no no prior experience, but they were the minority. But
Speaker 2: the UH what's fascinating too is that the UH, the
Speaker 2: anti tank element that Montou insisted upon that particular assault gun.
Speaker 2: It was a three point seven centimeter assault gun. It
Speaker 2: was manufactured by Ryan Medel Borsing, and it rapidly became
Speaker 2: ubiquitous like that itself, that like that making lott of
Speaker 2: itself as well as reverse engineered knockoffs in the in
Speaker 2: this in the Red Army, in the in the US Army,
Speaker 2: the Japanese imitated it, uh, the the the Wehrmacht faced
Speaker 2: them in the in the Benlux countries when they went
Speaker 2: through Holland. The Italians deployed it, you know, as late
Speaker 2: as uh as late as forty three, like around the
Speaker 2: time the Celeronal landings. So again, like even even though
Speaker 2: these uh pretty much every pretty much every weapons platform
Speaker 2: we've described again it was like obsolescent, but they had
Speaker 2: been a World War Two. But these were perfectly suited
Speaker 2: to the Spanish battle space, and it was uh, it
Speaker 2: was the experience of these platforms they're you know, in
Speaker 2: heavy combat over years that led to the development of
Speaker 2: you know, successor technologies. And I find that fascinating, and
Speaker 2: you know, that's why, like I said, there's plenty of
Speaker 2: historians who posit that the the Second World War actually
Speaker 2: started in Spain from a historicis's gonna hit the Ali perspective,
Speaker 2: I've got more than a little bit of sympathy for
Speaker 2: that perspective. But it's also military objectives were oddly bound
Speaker 2: up with policy objectives in the twentieth century in a
Speaker 2: way that was not conceivable before or since. And it
Speaker 2: wasn't just that, you know, the German rech and Hitler
Speaker 2: himself had a concept of Laban's wrong and racial posterity
Speaker 2: and the need to develop Europe into a superpower, the
Speaker 2: age of the superpower. It arrived. That was part of it,
Speaker 2: but it owed everybody, from Werner Sombart to George Sorell
Speaker 2: to uh Ernest Younger made the point, you know, sometimes obliquely,
Speaker 2: sometimes very directly that just the nature of labor and
Speaker 2: production and technics in the first half of the twentieth
Speaker 2: century just lent itself to warfare and organized violence at
Speaker 2: scale just became something like potentialities therein like led to
Speaker 2: it being a tactic of first recourse, you know, whether
Speaker 2: you're talking about the internal situation of states or whether
Speaker 2: you're talking about you know, resolving irridentist claims as we're
Speaker 2: always you know, an ongoing issue in a European cabinet politics,
Speaker 2: you know, there's not I made the point again and again.
Speaker 2: It's fascinating that the German contribution to the Enlightenment, kind
Speaker 2: of their only full embrace of rationalism was in military science.
Speaker 2: To Clausalis, But war is not just diplomacy by their
Speaker 2: means or politics by their means. There's always a political
Speaker 2: aspect of warfare. But going to war do unders solve
Speaker 2: political problems, you know, in fact, it almost never does.
Speaker 2: The twentieth century, in a rare capacity, there was a
Speaker 2: perfect congruence between military power and the ability to realize
Speaker 2: high political objectives, and that is kind of the moral
Speaker 2: of the story here, if there is one. I realized
Speaker 2: that this was a very heavy, uh, kind of technical discussion,
Speaker 2: but it's important to understanding the German contribution to the war,
Speaker 2: and I wanted to this is this is my dedicated
Speaker 2: Condo Relegion episode. We'll get into the Flange and we'll
Speaker 2: get into the ideology of the Spanish nationalist and we'll
Speaker 2: get into kind of the development of the situation there
Speaker 2: in the next episode. But I wanted to get this
Speaker 2: out of the way. Plus I hope people find it
Speaker 2: interesting because I I mean, admittedly, one of my primary
Speaker 2: research areas is the Third Reich. But even were that
Speaker 2: not the case, that this positive variable in the Spanish
Speaker 2: Civil War was the intervention of condo religion or by
Speaker 2: condo religion. So I think, uh, I think it's just
Speaker 2: material on its own terms.
Speaker 1: Today has been a long day. Give plugs and we'll
Speaker 1: get out of here.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, you can find me always on substeck at
Speaker 2: real Thomas seven seven seven dot subsec dot com in
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks and launching season two of the
Speaker 2: Mind Phaser podcast, and when I do, all the season
Speaker 2: one episodes will be available for free. A lot of
Speaker 2: things are gonna change in my content brand. I think
Speaker 2: everybody will find that to be a positive change. I've
Speaker 2: got a lot going on. I'm still on Twitter, uh,
Speaker 2: but I am trying to disengage from there a bit.
Speaker 2: As I've said, I've uh, I know, I said about
Speaker 2: a week ago, I was gonna drop a statement of
Speaker 2: my substack about moving forward, like how things is gonna
Speaker 2: work relating to you know, I'm gonna make a lot
Speaker 2: more stuff free. But also, like I said, I there's
Speaker 2: some projects I kind of want to plug that I
Speaker 2: I had to put in the back burner, like going
Speaker 2: to frankly like ill health and stuff. But that's back
Speaker 2: on track. I'll explicate that on my substack by this weekend.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to take up Peach time when his
Speaker 2: show to do that. But thanks again for the invitation
Speaker 2: today and always, man, I hope everybody found this to
Speaker 2: be constructive and stimulating well.
Speaker 1: And I just want to encourage people to go to
Speaker 1: Thomas's substack and subscribe. I mean I I went there,
Speaker 1: read one free article and subscribed and immediately started promoting
Speaker 1: Thomas's work on Twitter. And then Thomas was nice enough
Speaker 1: to come on the show and what is this U
Speaker 1: forty episodes later.
Speaker 2: No, yeah, that's a fantastic endorsement. Man. I mean not
Speaker 2: just because you're a serious guy and you're my friend,
Speaker 2: but no, I really really appreciate getting me a platform,
Speaker 2: and otherwise I would not have nearly the audience that
Speaker 2: I have. And plus, I mean, like I said, I
Speaker 2: think I hope people we'll get something else, and I
Speaker 2: think they do because feedback has been you know, formally positive,
Speaker 2: and it's not It's not always the case with things
Speaker 2: I do. So yeah, I can't thank you enough, as
Speaker 2: well as the people who tune in and you know,
Speaker 2: were mean engaged. That's just great.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thomas, thank you. I want to welcome
Speaker 1: everyone back to the Pecanas Show, part four of the
Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War series. I'm going to turn it over
Speaker 1: to Thomas seven seven seven and just let him go.
Speaker 1: Let me just ask how you doing.
Speaker 2: Thomas, and very well? Thanks. What I want to talk
Speaker 2: about today? It might seem as I'm jumping around a
Speaker 2: lot on the topic, and forgive me for that, but
Speaker 2: there's some things that I sort of want to tie in,
Speaker 2: not just to our earlier series, revisionist series that we've done,
Speaker 2: but also people have been asking questions that I want
Speaker 2: to kind of address now, you know, one of which
Speaker 2: is to us just two things. People ask me why
Speaker 2: I'm so critical of Franco, because the Franco somewhat revered,
Speaker 2: and part of that owes the frankly kind of the
Speaker 2: lingering kind of a lingering Cold War hangover, you know,
Speaker 2: especially after Spain sort of normalides, and you know, not
Speaker 2: it was brought into the the e C at least
Speaker 2: in a rudimentary way, I mean ship back then it
Speaker 2: was the European It was the e c S, the
Speaker 2: Cold and Steel Community, you know, by Eisenhower. It wasn't
Speaker 2: until much later that Spain was assimilated in the NATO.
Speaker 2: But the Franco regime is always it's uh. And I
Speaker 2: mean even before that officially assimilated and formally assimilated in NATO,
Speaker 2: there was a lot of you know, during command post
Speaker 2: exercises and stuff, you know, like Spain would you know,
Speaker 2: be included in a basic way there was Spain was
Speaker 2: kind of viewed as you know, the good guy, uh,
Speaker 2: like quasi fascist regime during the Cold War. And I
Speaker 2: think that a lot of scholarship, like otherwise pretty based
Speaker 2: and pretty correct, you know, right when it's dollarship. You know,
Speaker 2: that was written in like the seventies and in the eighties.
Speaker 2: You know, I think people internalize that. And also you know,
Speaker 2: their their kind of view of Franco is of you know,
Speaker 2: the Flange movement and you know the heroics of of
Speaker 2: the war and you know kind of reliegion and all
Speaker 2: of that. You know, they they they don't realize kind
Speaker 2: of how perfect it is and and and machiavellian Franco was.
Speaker 2: And I think that could be justified if if what
Speaker 2: Franco accomplished with some sort of enduring political culture, you know,
Speaker 2: that of that that served you know, the Spanish as
Speaker 2: a people, you know, and as as a race, you know,
Speaker 2: in historical terms and things, But that that's not at
Speaker 2: all what he accomplished. I mean, Franco at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, accomplished nothing. I'd say that he was
Speaker 2: a detriment you know, over the over the long term.
Speaker 2: But you know, so people ask, I want to get
Speaker 2: into a little bit like what exactly you know, Franco's
Speaker 2: sensibilities were on political matters, you know, pritically at the
Speaker 2: most critical junctures, you know which and the most critical
Speaker 2: obviously would would be the the warriors that the Second
Speaker 2: World War, I mean not the Spanish War. But also
Speaker 2: people ask me like what what exactly was the nature
Speaker 2: of the relationship, you know, between Madrid and Berlin and
Speaker 2: and Madrid and the rest of the Access Alliance, and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I've made the point that Serrano soon there
Speaker 2: was a great man, and he was very you know,
Speaker 2: he was he was very very pro axis. You know,
Speaker 2: he he wanted to formally join the Access Alliance. And
Speaker 2: we'll get into who soon there was in a minute,
Speaker 2: but so I kind of want to get into that
Speaker 2: today and then we'll pivot in the next episode and
Speaker 2: talk about, you know what the Falange movement was proper
Speaker 2: and ye pick up as a follow up, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: to the ear each a episode we just did. But
Speaker 2: for now, for today, that's that's what I want to cover.
Speaker 2: And plus it's like on my mind, I was, I
Speaker 2: was researching this a bunch, like owing to some other
Speaker 2: stuff I'm writing. So, I mean, it's convenient too, There's
Speaker 2: only so much time in the day, and while it's
Speaker 2: like fresh in my mind, That's kind of what I
Speaker 2: wanted to get into. David Irving who I I mean,
Speaker 2: it goes out saying I've got a huge esteem for him.
Speaker 2: Irving lived in Spain and one of his one of
Speaker 2: the one of his wives was a Spanish woman. I
Speaker 2: think his first wife was a Spanish woman, and he
Speaker 2: famously said life and quote life in Spain during the
Speaker 2: Franco years was very cheap, very simple, and very unthreatening.
Speaker 2: There's little criminality, no drugs and no street muggings. The
Speaker 2: roads were primitive, the life was quiet, and the sunshine
Speaker 2: meet up for everything. I mean that was kind of
Speaker 2: In some ways that's like a very English like backhanded compliment.
Speaker 2: In other ways it's you know, it's it's a very
Speaker 2: on the nose suggestion that you know, Spain was just
Speaker 2: remained a backwater, you know. I mean, I realized there
Speaker 2: was a Spanish miracle and uh, you know, conspiracy conspiracy
Speaker 2: minded types like say like oh that was Opus day,
Speaker 2: you know, laundering money through Spain under rospices of economic development.
Speaker 2: I don't even I don't have any opinion on that.
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't get to know interesting Catholic fights,
Speaker 2: and I'm not a biggest I don't. I don't tear
Speaker 2: down the Catholic Church, you know, at every opportunity like
Speaker 2: some revisionists do, pite the contrary, but regardless anyone's feelings
Speaker 2: on that, I mean, Spain was not exactly lighting the
Speaker 2: world on fire, okay, like in the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies,
Speaker 2: you know it it Uh, it remained kind of an splendid,
Speaker 2: splendid isolation. It was I think about almost as kind
Speaker 2: of like a right wing version of of like the
Speaker 2: Tito model, you know, like obviously like there there wasn't
Speaker 2: I mean that there, I realized that Spain's you know,
Speaker 2: had and has like you know, violence, separatist movements, and
Speaker 2: it's ethnically diverse. But you know, obviously it's it's nothing
Speaker 2: like the hostility between between populations like in the Balkans.
Speaker 2: But you know, Tito's whole notion was to keep you know,
Speaker 2: just kind of keep things frozen and keep this kind
Speaker 2: of quarantine almost like prophylactic armor like over you know,
Speaker 2: the the the nation of the Constitute of Yugoslavia like
Speaker 2: contrivances it may have been as a state. You know,
Speaker 2: it kept the Soviet Union out, it kept America out,
Speaker 2: it kept everybody out, you know, kept the Germans out,
Speaker 2: the bundesh and even even Germany was very much tethered
Speaker 2: to the Balkans and not in geostrategic terms, you know,
Speaker 2: as we talked about before. It's why Helmet Cole immediately
Speaker 2: recognized two Jamon's independent Croatia. But the point is, uh,
Speaker 2: such that Franko accomplished anything. I mean, he basically yeah,
Speaker 2: he basically just uh you know, he basically just just
Speaker 2: just put Spain under like lock and key, like you know,
Speaker 2: in every concee sense, like figuratively and literally, but again
Speaker 2: that's not that doesn't generate anything sustainable. So what what uh?
Speaker 2: What exactly happened between Germany and Spain? Rib and Troup
Speaker 2: was you know, as foreign minister was primarily charged with
Speaker 2: finessing the Franco regime, you know, to join the war effort.
Speaker 3: It uh, And can ask a question before you all
Speaker 3: this this this is something that people would ask were
Speaker 3: they in any kind of shape to join?
Speaker 1: I mean they just went through three at three and
Speaker 1: a half years of hell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we're going to get into that. Like Franco ahead,
Speaker 2: Franco had a list quite literally ever increasing material demands,
Speaker 2: with material and political demands that had to be met
Speaker 2: for Spain to join the war effort. Owing to that
Speaker 2: very reality, however, it fairly quickly became clear that he
Speaker 2: was not negotiating in good faith. You know. The the
Speaker 2: the extent of these demands was such that they just
Speaker 2: they could not be met, you know, and that was
Speaker 2: the whole point. But we'll get into that in a minute.
Speaker 2: But what what the Reich needed the Spain? The Reich needed, uh,
Speaker 2: the Reich needed unconditional access to Gibraltar. The Reich needed
Speaker 2: the Spanish to join in Africa and abandon you know,
Speaker 2: the uh, the uh, the uncompromising claims they were making
Speaker 2: on French Africa as well, particularly not exclusively Morocco. Finally,
Speaker 2: Spain basically needed to needed to do avail itself as
Speaker 2: as as part of Fortress Europe as uh. You know,
Speaker 2: France that had done admittedly like post defeat, and France
Speaker 2: plays into this equation more than people might think. Okay,
Speaker 2: the UH, France and Germany despite what people claim, like
Speaker 2: there was not like VC France and then free France.
Speaker 2: I mean it's uh. Obviously the Gaul was uh, you know,
Speaker 2: the Allies were suggesting that you know, de Gaul was
Speaker 2: the true like you know, French president in exile and
Speaker 2: that you know, Peten's regime was illegitimate. But Peten was
Speaker 2: literally a national hero, okay, and the French accepted the
Speaker 2: fact that they were defeated. You know, I posted up
Speaker 2: the other week or the other day of my timeline
Speaker 2: footage of uh. You know, the Germans like you know
Speaker 2: allowing uh, allowing the defeated French like full honors and
Speaker 2: allowing to like march past you know, the Wehrmacht like
Speaker 2: as they were like saluted, you know, and in full
Speaker 2: regalia and everything. I mean, this was very much of a
Speaker 2: Westphalian paradigm at work. Okay, you know this idea that
Speaker 2: you know, France just hated Germany with this kind of
Speaker 2: like hell bent passion, and you know, the v regime
Speaker 2: was was was completely contrived and was a fiction like
Speaker 2: that's not true. And furthermore, the British immediately uh began
Speaker 2: attacking French forces in Africa. You know, they killed thousands
Speaker 2: of people, you know, not French touristmen, civilians. I mean
Speaker 2: we'll get into that too. But essentially, what the Reich
Speaker 2: needed in the West, they needed France and Spain somehow
Speaker 2: come to terms, you know, on sovereign claims in Africa.
Speaker 2: Spain had to you know, cooperate operationally and politically with
Speaker 2: you know, a Gibraltar operation, and you know, Spain had
Speaker 2: to fortify and you know, prepare for prepared to resist
Speaker 2: any Anglo American assault a Spanish or Portuguese coastal soil
Speaker 2: and those those you know, those were basically like what
Speaker 2: the fears and ambitions were. But even then, as things
Speaker 2: had developed, I mean with respect to you know the
Speaker 2: pattern of hostilities between combatants, you know, regardless of ideology,
Speaker 2: because you know, the war in the West was very
Speaker 2: different than the war in the East. There were certain
Speaker 2: complexities present there, even in purely geostrategic terms. This what
Speaker 2: I just outlined is what would have what would have
Speaker 2: been required, Okay, you know, notwithstanding the idiosyncracies the actually
Speaker 2: were perceived of, you know, the respective regimes in place
Speaker 2: and in Vase, in Berlin and in Madrid. It uh.
Speaker 2: On September nineteen forty was uh when Hitler first directed
Speaker 2: Ribbon traup, you know, to push as hard as he
Speaker 2: could for the Spanish to cooperate with you know, Gibraltar
Speaker 2: offensive and to you know, encourage him to join what
Speaker 2: he called the Grand Coalition. Hitler said to Ribin Trump
Speaker 2: and on certain terms every aspirant would have to be
Speaker 2: left and the quote heavy belief that his wishes would
Speaker 2: be largely fulfilled. Rybond Troup wrote in his own notes
Speaker 2: that to accomplish this would require quote fraud on a
Speaker 2: grand scale. Raymond Tropp wasn't saying, like, oh, Hitler you know,
Speaker 2: was uh was you know, anticipating, you know, perpetuating such
Speaker 2: a fraud. Like what he was saying was that Hitler's
Speaker 2: dreaming because this can't be realized, going to the going
Speaker 2: to the unwillingness of the of the the parties, to
Speaker 2: the you know, to you know, to the situation, you know,
Speaker 2: and their and their unwillingness to you know, compromise on
Speaker 2: issues that might appear to be of secondary importance from
Speaker 2: you know, where Hitler was sitting in Berlin, but you know,
Speaker 2: was of paramount importance to you know, to them, and
Speaker 2: looking at it too, like it wasn't just a prestige
Speaker 2: thing what Spain and France were looking at in Africa.
Speaker 2: I mean these particularly with the you know, the uh,
Speaker 2: the realization of strategic air power. But yeah, uh, these
Speaker 2: were extential matters of of of security, you know, to
Speaker 2: the states that orded the Mediterranean. So I mean that
Speaker 2: that should be that should be clear. And plus to
Speaker 2: the you know, the Spain in France were not. There
Speaker 2: wasn't the there wasn't the ongoing you know kind of enmity,
Speaker 2: you know, only the kind of the tragedy of strategic
Speaker 2: situation that there was between Germany and France. But France
Speaker 2: and Spain weren't natural allies by any means, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not it's not as if there's some
Speaker 2: sort of you know, common bond owing to you know,
Speaker 2: Latin heritage and the Roman Church or something. It did
Speaker 2: it Really it was just absence, even between Portugal, even
Speaker 2: between sales there's Portugal and Franco Spain. I mean that
Speaker 2: didn't exist, you know, I mean it wasn't that might
Speaker 2: seem strange on some level the people who live, you know,
Speaker 2: in kind of the globalized twenty first century, but at
Speaker 2: the same time, like it doesn't, you know, Europe, a
Speaker 2: lot of these a lot of these political cultures were
Speaker 2: still mired and kind of like the War in States period,
Speaker 2: you know, which endured in Europe until nineteen fourteen. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, and not you know, in a in a
Speaker 2: real sense. I'm talking about abstrac postules here. Something. There's
Speaker 2: that to keep in mind too. Even a Franco was
Speaker 2: more worldly. And even if the ten was you know,
Speaker 2: a younger man and not you know, this kind of
Speaker 2: inflexible you know, Octageneerian Field Marshal I. I don't think
Speaker 2: it would have been any easier to accommodate them, you know,
Speaker 2: these kind of competing egos and demands. The uh what
Speaker 2: Hitler's plan was at the Berghoff. You know. He his
Speaker 2: timetable was this, he was going to contact a former
Speaker 2: French ambassador, Poncet or Poncet, who Hitler had always had
Speaker 2: a good rapport with. He was gonna feel him out
Speaker 2: about a personal meeting with the ten and basically use
Speaker 2: him as kind of like his unofficial emissary. He would
Speaker 2: would visited to pretend, he would make his pitch to
Speaker 2: contain that, you know, the United Kingdom, regardless of the
Speaker 2: outcome this war, is going to leave France out to dry.
Speaker 2: You know, they've humiliated they've humiliated France not just at
Speaker 2: the car but also by you know, assaulting and sinking.
Speaker 2: It's a navy in uh Algeria. You know, it's it's you.
Speaker 2: You have to accept the situation as it is that
Speaker 2: you know, France and London are at war and you
Speaker 2: know Germany is really, uh the only port you have
Speaker 2: in a storm. And once he got a war guaranty
Speaker 2: from Paten, he would take that to Franco and UH
Speaker 2: ask Franco to advocate if not moderate Rich demands to Morocco.
Speaker 2: Take that to pretend and used as the basis for
Speaker 2: future collaboration, which seems somewhat hair brained, but again, a
Speaker 2: lot of what Hitler got done was based on personal
Speaker 2: relationships and the fact that he was able to finesse
Speaker 2: these relationships into actual policy commitments. Something this precedent for this,
Speaker 2: and what Hitler had accomplished in the proceeding, you know,
Speaker 2: several years, including after September nineteen thirty nine, you know,
Speaker 2: so this was not just a pipe dream, and people
Speaker 2: can't just dismiss it out right as oh, you know,
Speaker 2: that was just Hitler being crazy, because everyone knows Hitler
Speaker 2: went crazy, you know, after after you know, the Battle
Speaker 2: of Moscow or something or whatever they like to say.
Speaker 2: But Hitler interestingly too Pierre Leval, who was the Prime
Speaker 2: Minister of France, he ended up being the prime mini
Speaker 2: from nineteen forty two to forty four, April forty two
Speaker 2: to August forty four, you know, and he'd served previously
Speaker 2: in the in the same role in the Third Republic
Speaker 2: from thirty one to thirty two, and then i think
Speaker 2: from ninety thirty five to thirty six thirty seven. So
Speaker 2: again that and Hitler and Laval had had a basic
Speaker 2: rapport or there their respective liaisons, did you know. But
Speaker 2: again I raised this because it becomes somewhat significant later.
Speaker 2: But it's also like Laval again, he he was serving
Speaker 2: you know the quote VC government, which supposedly was you know,
Speaker 2: this illegitimate regime. I mean, this was not uncommon. I mean,
Speaker 2: he was one of the most he was one of
Speaker 2: the more prominent you know, cabinet ministers who it's off
Speaker 2: in the same role that he had before. It's like
Speaker 2: the idea this was just some kind of like you know,
Speaker 2: client regime that you know had no kind of like
Speaker 2: organic legitimacy or something is nonsense. But Hitler, uh, Hitler
Speaker 2: sent out feelers to Laval as well for the purpose
Speaker 2: of h and Laval didn't have any formal office at
Speaker 2: this point, for for the purpose of getting a personal
Speaker 2: audience with Patent, which was no easy thing. And again
Speaker 2: you know, it tells you too like Hitler's approaching Paten,
Speaker 2: you know, carefully, and he's treating him with all the
Speaker 2: honor and respect of a field marshal. But also as
Speaker 2: you know, with sovereign had a state, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: like think about this, and especially Hitler, who was definitely
Speaker 2: more kind of cultured and diplomatically cautious than people allege,
Speaker 2: but who is not exactly you know, a man who
Speaker 2: favored a for nests over or action sometimes brute action
Speaker 2: and the threat of it. You know, it's like if if,
Speaker 2: if the VC regime is this completely artificial regime, Like
Speaker 2: why isn't a Hitler just directing the Tan to do
Speaker 2: whatever he orders? You know? I mean it's that right there.
Speaker 2: I mean kind of shoots the pieces the the narrative
Speaker 2: of you know, VC being artificial or you know, France
Speaker 2: just either like not existing after you know, cessation of
Speaker 2: hostilities in nineteen forty, or you know being this is
Speaker 2: completely astro turf like artificial edifice, you know. And I
Speaker 2: bring it up to people again and again, and.
Speaker 1: I mean you went, you went over in in the
Speaker 1: World War two series that when American troops landed in Africa,
Speaker 1: who were the first people firing upon them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was the French and it was well it's
Speaker 2: old too. Yeah, I mean Darlan, who was the you know,
Speaker 2: who was the Martinette or I don't even know what
Speaker 2: you'd call him, procurator, you know, maybe I mean, here's
Speaker 2: the military leader of a French Africa and yeah, he
Speaker 2: Darlan considered VF to be the legitimate government of France,
Speaker 2: and he considered France to be at war with the
Speaker 2: United States of America. So yeah, I mean it doesn't,
Speaker 2: it doesn't. Yeah, you got you gotta look at France
Speaker 2: as one of these not obviously they were not formally
Speaker 2: part of the access to alliance and there wasn't that
Speaker 2: kind of command and control integration, you know that uh,
Speaker 2: you know, such was the case with you know, like Romania,
Speaker 2: but or Italy. But they definitely were on the side
Speaker 2: of the axis where the rubber I'm at the road
Speaker 2: and the key theater of engagement such that you know,
Speaker 2: France was still capable of projecting power to protect its
Speaker 2: its core interests. And yeah, exactly that was in that
Speaker 2: was in Africa. Now what did lebal say and is
Speaker 2: uh response to Hitler? This very much emboldened to Hitler
Speaker 2: with respect to you know, his Mediterranean strategy and his
Speaker 2: ultimate goal of you know, bringing Frank go into the fold.
Speaker 2: After his meeting with the ten, like Laval said, you know,
Speaker 2: Britain the dragged France into an unwanted war then abandoned
Speaker 2: her you know then you know, made war honor for
Speaker 2: smirching her honor and killing her people at the Nurse
Speaker 2: el Kabur a breached catapult. That was July ninety forty,
Speaker 2: that's where the British assaulted destroyed the French fleet, killing
Speaker 2: over twelve hundred people like French servicemen and civilians. And
Speaker 2: then more recently in September as we in the as
Speaker 2: we mentioned in the port of the car in French
Speaker 2: West Africa, and again several hundred not just servicemen but
Speaker 2: French civilians were killed. But friend force is held, you know,
Speaker 2: and Lavelle promised, uh to return, you know, to see this,
Speaker 2: you know, to seek audience with the ten and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, return of the answer in two days time.
Speaker 2: And uh that's uh, that's exactly what he did. October
Speaker 2: twenty third, Hitler believed ninety forty two days subsequent. Hitler
Speaker 2: believed that Franco's willingness would absolutely depend on the tenor
Speaker 2: of uh of of of the approach to it. Uh
Speaker 2: like what is yeah, like, what is meant by that?
Speaker 1: Is that.
Speaker 2: Spain at least had to have they had to believe
Speaker 2: at least that Hitler was advocating for the legitimacy their
Speaker 2: claims in Africa and the Mediterranean and treating Spain like
Speaker 2: something of a great something of a great power, like
Speaker 2: however preposterous that might seem. And I think in that regard,
Speaker 2: like Hitler had Franco's number, and it wasn't just uh,
Speaker 2: it wasn't just for sake of appearances, like the way
Speaker 2: you know it was. It wasn't just like some people speculate,
Speaker 2: and I mean Franco was a limited guy and and
Speaker 2: and kind of a buffoon like a lot of people
Speaker 2: I've read it speculated like, well, you know, this was
Speaker 2: only for domestic you know, consumption, because Franco didn't have
Speaker 2: an actual mandate anyway other than from this kind of
Speaker 2: coterie of officers and you know, and uh and phialangists
Speaker 2: who are who are a minority within the party, I
Speaker 2: might add, you know who kind of agreed to cooperate
Speaker 2: every sensation of hostilities. I don't believe it to be
Speaker 2: true at all. I think, uh, as time went on,
Speaker 2: and as we'll get into and as I mentioned this,
Speaker 2: before we went live, Franco's demands we were deliberately like
Speaker 2: so up tos and so unreasonable that you know, it
Speaker 2: was it was kind of his way out of joining
Speaker 2: the war, but these demands, like you know, Franko's obsession
Speaker 2: with Morocco, you know him, you know, saying you wanted
Speaker 2: like equality of status like in you know, in terms
Speaker 2: of maritime passage and the Mediterranean. Like he meant all
Speaker 2: these things like on their own terms, like over stupid
Speaker 2: that might seem. And he uh, he actually viewed Spain
Speaker 2: as some like serious major power, you know, and again
Speaker 2: like raposterous? Is that? Uh? As that might seem. As
Speaker 2: it happened, Hitler met with UH. Hitler and the UH
Speaker 2: Ribbent troup and the UH the diplomatic contingent was the
Speaker 2: diplomatic contingent respectively, of the Reich and of National Spain
Speaker 2: met UH before Hiller got his audience with the ten
Speaker 2: on October twenty third, ninety forty. It was the h
Speaker 2: in the frontier town of Hindai, Hindi, France. I'm sure
Speaker 2: I'm butchering the pronunciation. Hitler was president, obviously, Franco was president,
Speaker 2: so is von Ribintrov, and so is Toronto. Sooner. Sooner
Speaker 2: was the newly appointed foreign minister who was surrounding Soonior.
Speaker 2: He was Franko's brother in law, but more importantly, he
Speaker 2: was president of the traditional of the quote traditionalist Spanish
Speaker 2: felanx and of the councils of the National Syndicalist Offensive.
Speaker 2: What that was is that was the that was the
Speaker 2: only legal party in Spain, and it was it had
Speaker 2: come about by merging of the Palange and the Integralist
Speaker 2: Catholic Traditionalist Union. Okay, part of the kind of optics
Speaker 2: the Franco regime where they claim to both represent the
Speaker 2: Church and represent the Falanges, which was a fiction if
Speaker 2: anybody knows the history of these Tennessees, and we'll get
Speaker 2: into that next episode. And there was a revolt of
Speaker 2: the Phalange against uh against Franco's dictatorship, and that ultimately
Speaker 2: the kind of the kind of enduring ripples of that
Speaker 2: ultimately led to Snare's dismissal because Snaire actually was a
Speaker 2: dedicated Falangist, you know, and had he not been related
Speaker 2: to the Cuddillo, he would not have found himself in
Speaker 2: this role. There's a cruel irony here too, because the
Speaker 2: Acabam Ribbon shrow Up and surrounding Snare came to quite
Speaker 2: literally hate one another, and they'd had quite a lot
Speaker 2: of contact during the Spanish Civil War and beyond and
Speaker 2: Ribbin Trump was beside himself and soon Era was appointed
Speaker 2: Foreign Minister, and Ribin Trump was uh the anniversary of
Speaker 2: his death, I think it was last year when the
Speaker 2: university was death rolled around. I remember talking on Twitter
Speaker 2: and in some other on some other platforms with people
Speaker 2: they were asking me what my take on Ribbin Troup was.
Speaker 2: There were some incredible diplomatic coups that Ribbon Troff pulled off,
Speaker 2: and he had some remarkable insights in at key junctures.
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, he was an
Speaker 2: international businessman, okay, in business a diplomats and and uh,
Speaker 2: no matter what, the most prestige posting before he became
Speaker 2: the Foreign Minister was his ambassador of the United Kingdom.
Speaker 2: And no matter who had been in that role, you know,
Speaker 2: he would he wouldn't He wouldn't have made any any headway, okay,
Speaker 2: because you know, for reasons that should be obvious to anybody,
Speaker 2: but that we covered extensively in our earlier series. But
Speaker 2: Raymond Troup was incapable of of of coming to terms
Speaker 2: with people who he developed a relationship characterized a personal
Speaker 2: animus opposite. And this was the case of soon Air
Speaker 2: and like you know, and Like I said, Sooner, not
Speaker 2: only was he Uh a dedicated philangist, he was he
Speaker 2: was he was incredibly pro Axis. The previous September, the
Speaker 2: month prior UH Sooner visited Berlin, he'd sought out Ribin
Speaker 2: Troup at the Foreign Ministry to discuss how Spain could
Speaker 2: enter the war on the Axis side. Like now, mind
Speaker 2: you like, Sooner knew that Franco was dragging his feet.
Speaker 2: He knew what Hitler's demands were, and he knew that
Speaker 2: those demands were sound and strategic as well as political terms.
Speaker 2: He also knew that, you know, part of Franco's strategy,
Speaker 2: it would be the issue demands that could would would
Speaker 2: not reasonably be met either because you know, realistically, you know,
Speaker 2: forces and being weren't there we're you know, and and
Speaker 2: and those that were like that, you know, food stuffs, petroleum, weapons, aircraft,
Speaker 2: you know that which was in being you know, Berlin
Speaker 2: would never part with because it was an unconstable demand.
Speaker 2: But soon they're honestly visited the Foreign Ministry in good
Speaker 2: faith to try and realize terms by which uh, you know,
Speaker 2: Franco would be painted into a corner. In my belief,
Speaker 2: in my opinion, you know such that you know, the uh,
Speaker 2: the Reich would contribute, you know, everything that possibly could
Speaker 2: to facilitate Spain's entry into the war. So I mean
Speaker 2: soon Air and Ribbon Trump wanted the same things and
Speaker 2: uh they uh they but they couldn't they, you know
Speaker 2: that they couldn't overcome this this kind of personal animus
Speaker 2: what uh Ribbon Trump reported and Raybon Troup was something
Speaker 2: of a haughty two ton of uh you know, a
Speaker 2: caricatures sort And again that's another reason I think he
Speaker 2: should not have been in the role that he was.
Speaker 2: But soon There uh said that, you know, Caudillo demands
Speaker 2: you know, all of French, Morocco and Algeria, you know,
Speaker 2: for Laban's wrong. But this could probably be finesse if
Speaker 2: you know he was offered Portugal because geographically speaking, in
Speaker 2: Soonor's words, Portugal has no right to exist quote and
Speaker 2: this apparently raged Ribbon Throp. You know, like, who the
Speaker 2: hell is this Spandard think he is? You know, Spain
Speaker 2: is a is a ship country. It's you know, he's
Speaker 2: talking like he's you know, he's talking to me like
Speaker 2: we're peers. And you can almost see like if you
Speaker 2: read about these personages like you almost you almost like
Speaker 2: feel this like outraged ribbon trop But I mean again,
Speaker 2: if you're a diplomat, you've got to stay cool no
Speaker 2: matter what. But again, part of the tragedy of this
Speaker 2: is that a man like soon Air Well, I think
Speaker 2: it was a real hero in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: But you know this, uh, this kind of a you know,
Speaker 2: this this kind of self important, pompous Latin guy, and uh,
Speaker 2: this kind of you know, supremacist to time type like
Speaker 2: people like that are gonna mix like oil and water,
Speaker 2: you know. And you can just see just kind of
Speaker 2: by like like the words jump off the page, and
Speaker 2: when when you read of this meeting, how you know,
Speaker 2: just like what a disaster it must must must have been. Additionally,
Speaker 2: Srono wanted to he wanted he want to guarantees of
Speaker 2: military and economic support, you know, uh immediately to like
Speaker 2: you know, this wasn't he said he wanted to go
Speaker 2: back to Madrid, you know, with with the concrete offer
Speaker 2: of what you know, Hitler was willing to provide, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of like down to the letter, you know, and uh,
Speaker 2: this is not that's not the way that that's not
Speaker 2: that's not the way diplomacy has done either you know
Speaker 2: it's and uh this would be the cost again of
Speaker 2: uh of you know, joining the war and specifically you know,
Speaker 2: immediately planning for an operation. This trilter apparently Ymntroft hit
Speaker 2: the roof and he said that he'd approached the Fear
Speaker 2: and talk about maybe letting uh Spain maintained territorial rights
Speaker 2: to uh one of the Canary Islands, but that's it,
Speaker 2: you know. He said that Spain's never going to have
Speaker 2: Morocco that you know, France is an essential ally and
Speaker 2: you're not. You know, this is paraphrase, you know, and uh, finally,
Speaker 2: Riven trop said that you know the aid you're gonna
Speaker 2: get is you know, you're you're gonna become a dedicated
Speaker 2: you know, destination from German manufacturers. You know, we're gonna
Speaker 2: put your people to work, you know, as we see fit,
Speaker 2: you know, to sustain in the war economy. But you know,
Speaker 2: basically you're a coolie, you know, go back. He basically
Speaker 2: told him, like, go get his fucking shinebos and you
Speaker 2: know the uh he literally insulted him by you know,
Speaker 2: not just portraying Spain as you know, like a future
Speaker 2: satellite state, but as like a second rate one at
Speaker 2: that as uh this came is apparently a great shock
Speaker 2: to soon error because it uh. I mean again, like
Speaker 2: these guys weren't rob and Troup had done business in
Speaker 2: America and like actually up until you know, the the
Speaker 2: evil World War one and uh and then subsequent he'd
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in Canada, So I mean
Speaker 2: he was worldly, but uh like not neither of these
Speaker 2: men should have been negotiating anything of uh of of
Speaker 2: of of the nature that they were charged with, you know,
Speaker 2: like I Sigafreed Cash, I Uh, SIGRed Cash wasn't a diplomat,
Speaker 2: but he he was slated to be the gall lighter
Speaker 2: of the Moscow UH Commissariat, you know, had it come
Speaker 2: to fruition, and he uh he was. He was the
Speaker 2: military liaison uh to uh the independent State of Croatia.
Speaker 2: I mean, I just think he's an interesting guy. But
Speaker 2: I in in counterfactual terms, I was thinking about that,
Speaker 2: like Sigarey Cash, like should have been the man negotiating
Speaker 2: with Spain and uh it should have been a man
Speaker 2: from the traditional uh, from the traditional aristocracy of the
Speaker 2: church or the church like negotiating with with Cash. You know.
Speaker 2: Again it's a. It's a it's it's a splendid example
Speaker 2: of two men who basically agree on everything in terms
Speaker 2: of like ideology and politics, who you know, could not
Speaker 2: agree on like what day it was? It uh, And
Speaker 2: it becomes Franco's private correspondence to soon error, you know,
Speaker 2: and his telegrams to him, but specifically like his private letters.
Speaker 2: So I mean, you know that these were intendingly for
Speaker 2: Sator's eyes. He was uh, he was a Frank was
Speaker 2: a fusively praising Hitler as a wise man, you know
Speaker 2: and like a great man. And you know he was
Speaker 2: dismissing Ribbon trow up as you know Ri Ribond Trump
Speaker 2: is you know, he's a fool. He he's uh, he
Speaker 2: heels to appreciate you know, what we can offer the
Speaker 2: axis and you know these kinds of things, you know.
Speaker 2: So again it's and if it's some like go to
Speaker 2: show you how essential to I mean, if you're if
Speaker 2: you're ahead of state, particularly if you're a world ord
Speaker 2: as Hitler was by this point, you've got to be insulated.
Speaker 2: I mean not just for you know, reasons of literal
Speaker 2: physical security, but you know, because every anybody and everybody
Speaker 2: is going to be you know, trying to sway your
Speaker 2: opinion and make demands on you and things. I mean,
Speaker 2: you just you know, you basically have to communicate through liaison.
Speaker 2: But it goes to show you, like how how important
Speaker 2: it is that the man in that role or in
Speaker 2: those roles you know, in in discreete capacities, you know,
Speaker 2: really really have to you know, be be able to
Speaker 2: check their ego at the door. You know, if there's
Speaker 2: there's no reason why like this, this could not have
Speaker 2: developed into a real you know, a real strategic uh
Speaker 2: you know, alliance, you know, in operational terms, I mean
Speaker 2: uh he uh, even after when a protege as soon
Speaker 2: are a guy named Pedro Gamero del Castill in nineteen
Speaker 2: forty one January nineteen forty one, he reached out to
Speaker 2: the press secretary of the German embassy in Spain, Hans Lasar,
Speaker 2: and he he begged him basically, he's like, look, you know,
Speaker 2: tell Berlin that a Serrano soonnor government in other words,
Speaker 2: like Franco could be sidelined or killed. You know, a
Speaker 2: Serrano sonir government, you know, it was soon are at
Speaker 2: the helm and live with the Cardillo would commit absolutely
Speaker 2: the access powers, you know, and This was incredibly risky,
Speaker 2: you know that he was that he was talking about
Speaker 2: these things in a basically above board capacity with a
Speaker 2: German diplomatic representative. But I mean it goes to show
Speaker 2: you Spain was a house divided. And it goes to
Speaker 2: show you too how you know that the true Falange
Speaker 2: like pro access element in Spain, like we're holding out
Speaker 2: hope still that you know, Spain would join the access
Speaker 2: as a you know, as a as a full partner.
Speaker 2: It Uh, it's unclear whether Wizarre ever reached Hitler or
Speaker 2: reached like the right Chancery and if he did like
Speaker 2: what he said when it was said to Hitler when
Speaker 2: it was like not the not by not by Castillo bout,
Speaker 2: Hitler said, Uh. To Walter Hewle later on was uh,
Speaker 2: he said that you know, soon air and not you know,
Speaker 2: trying harder and doing whatever he could dissuay the Cordillo
Speaker 2: was quote the great bigger of the new Spain and uh,
Speaker 2: you know Hitler, the man always who always took the
Speaker 2: long view. Whatever else he canna say about him, you know,
Speaker 2: he realized more than anybody that you know, Spain's fortunes
Speaker 2: were inextricably tethered to Germany's and if the axis went down,
Speaker 2: that that was the end of Spain. You know, it
Speaker 2: didn't matter that Franco was able to create a little
Speaker 2: like you know, Garrison Uh uh, you know Disneyland, like
Speaker 2: fascist Disneyland for thirty years subsequent that, you know, his
Speaker 2: lasting legacy, that that of Frankoin, I mean is amounts
Speaker 2: to exactly zero. Soon There uh and uh Castile proposed
Speaker 2: they were the ones who proposed the Blue Division, you know,
Speaker 2: after the honest of hostilities with the Soviet Union on
Speaker 2: June twenty second, ninety forty one. And uh, you know
Speaker 2: it's clear that uh, it's it's clear. Soon There realized
Speaker 2: the opportunity that he'd missed or or or was cossing
Speaker 2: his own failure. Two days after Barbarossa in June twenty there,
Speaker 2: twenty four. I've seen it cited, as I've seen both
Speaker 2: citations of the date. He Uh, he delivered a famous
Speaker 2: uh kind of stump speech, uh, from the balcony of
Speaker 2: what had been for largest party headquarters, called Russia is
Speaker 2: capabal forgive me portuing Spanish, I don't speak Spanish at all,
Speaker 2: but translates as Russia is guilty and it's essentially you know, uh,
Speaker 2: bellicos epologia for you know, why why why Spain needs
Speaker 2: to join you know, the war effort, where the flange
Speaker 2: need to join the war effort, you know, like all
Speaker 2: all true patriots need to slay that you deal Bolshevic beast,
Speaker 2: you know. So he was, uh, he was. He was
Speaker 2: like like many people, you know, like many great men.
Speaker 2: You know, he was complicated. And again that's part of
Speaker 2: the tragedy is that Serrano was basically a heroic type
Speaker 2: and a great patriot, and you know, kind of circumstances
Speaker 2: intervened to uh prevent him from realizing you know, what
Speaker 2: he wanted to do. H accomplished for the sake of
Speaker 2: Spain and you know, the national Socialist cause and everything else.
Speaker 2: But back to forgive that, tangent I had to kind
Speaker 2: of flesh out who soon there was, to make clear
Speaker 2: like what the stakes were of the of the summit
Speaker 2: between Hitler and Franco, but also you know, to kind
Speaker 2: of understand, you know, how the personage is directly engaged,
Speaker 2: you know, determine the outcome of this negotiation. The basic
Speaker 2: object was to resolve you know, outstanding disagreements uh over
Speaker 2: the over over conditions for Spain to join the Access
Speaker 2: Powers in their war against Hi.
Speaker 1: Okay, Jimmy a favor you cut out. You cut out
Speaker 1: there when you when you first started, you were going
Speaker 1: to say right now, you cut out like like five
Speaker 1: seconds ago. Can you can you restart that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, No, it's the UH to bring it back
Speaker 2: to the summit between you know, Hitler and Franco at
Speaker 2: the object of that meeting it was to resolve, you know,
Speaker 2: the outstanding disagreements over over what conditions had to be
Speaker 2: met for Spain to join the Axis Powers in the
Speaker 2: war against the British Empire. Okay, because obviously, you know,
Speaker 2: this is October nineteen forty, the German Reich in the
Speaker 2: Soviet Union or not yet at war. Okay, France has
Speaker 2: been soundly defeated. The British were defeated at you know two.
Speaker 2: I mean, but you know, on to the war at
Speaker 2: all costs crusade. You know, they're refusing to negotiate, and uh,
Speaker 2: Hitler doesn't want to go through a sea lion. I
Speaker 2: think Sea Lion was always just fertig ruse. But that's
Speaker 2: another question. But the nail in the coffin of the
Speaker 2: British Empire, you know, would be the seeear of Gibraltar.
Speaker 2: You know, the Royal Navy would then be shut out
Speaker 2: of the Mediterranean. They'd lose Africa, you know, they'd they'd
Speaker 2: be they they'd be they'd be a garrison, uh state
Speaker 2: on their home islands, you know, and the U boat
Speaker 2: fleet could do the rest. Really Okay, the meeting endured
Speaker 2: for seven hours. Uh. The Spanish wouldn't waiver, and there rather,
Speaker 2: Franco wouldn't waiver and uh demands that Hitler described as extortionate.
Speaker 2: His demands were. Franco's demands were the handing over of
Speaker 2: Gibraltar to Spain once the British were defeated. Uh this,
Speaker 2: you know, the seating of French Morocco and part of
Speaker 2: French Algeria to Spain. The attachment of French Cameroon to
Speaker 2: the Spanish colony of Guinea. So basically, you know, French
Speaker 2: Africa becomes Spanish Afriga Okay, and finally German supplies of food, petrol,
Speaker 2: arms and ammunition uh as needed, you know, to relieve
Speaker 2: the critical economic and military situation to your point, faced
Speaker 2: by Spain after the Civil War. And you know, and
Speaker 2: subsequently as needed, you know, for long term development. Now,
Speaker 2: Hitler couldn't disturb relations with with with France, Okay. I mean,
Speaker 2: as we just talked about, that was the key that
Speaker 2: was really the key to you know, victory in the West. Okay,
Speaker 2: the key that the key to n SIG was the
Speaker 2: defeat of the Soviet Union. But you know, the Barbarossa
Speaker 2: hasn't happened yet, and ideally, you know, if the war
Speaker 2: in the West can be won, uh first, I mean
Speaker 2: that's obviously ideal, even if this was always a secondary
Speaker 2: theater and you know, a war that the Germans did
Speaker 2: not want to fight. These are the UK and you know,
Speaker 2: the Mediterranean and Northern Africa. But the strategic landscape is
Speaker 2: what it is, Okay, something that's important that doesn't nullify uh,
Speaker 2: you know RHS Stofle's claim, and I mean Hitler's notion,
Speaker 2: I mean the notion of Hitler himself that you know,
Speaker 2: the like final like final victory is conquering is is
Speaker 2: when Moscow falls. Okay, But I just wanted to reiterate
Speaker 2: that for Claire. But uh, the only way that this uh,
Speaker 2: the only way that this uh that this alliance, uh
Speaker 2: that this Mediterranean alliance can work, is uh like like
Speaker 2: Frances the Lynchkin. Okay, for reasons where we discussed Franco
Speaker 2: is making that impossible for you know, for for France
Speaker 2: to come to terms based on what he is demanding.
Speaker 2: And Hillar was beside himself. But also he just didn't
Speaker 2: he he didn't understand the abject uh you know, kind
Speaker 2: of stubbornness. I mean he he view it's never deliver,
Speaker 2: really sabotage the proceedings, and I believe that's true. Uh
Speaker 2: said in Mussolini that he would rather have three or
Speaker 2: four teeth extracted than go through that again, that being
Speaker 2: negotiation or attempted negotiation with Franco soon Air, who was
Speaker 2: again he was uh not habituated to being a diplomat
Speaker 2: and uh he was apparently something of a boisterous, you know,
Speaker 2: an impassionate person and a military man as as well
Speaker 2: as uh, you know, a revolutionary type. He uh he
Speaker 2: continually interrupted and in a way that apparently Hitler viewed
Speaker 2: as totally tactless and stiff like that meane Hitler very
Speaker 2: angry as a kind of as a kind of would
Speaker 2: any sort of like old world Habsburg German. But Hitler
Speaker 2: especially it was. You know, it's basically like, look, if
Speaker 2: you're a definitely representative, even if you're a foreign minister,
Speaker 2: you know when heads a state or talking, you don't
Speaker 2: see anything, you know, I mean so it's just every
Speaker 2: every conceivable sort of aspect of this of this affair
Speaker 2: just came uh you know, a yasco you know, a
Speaker 2: a literal comedy of errors. But uh, Hitler kept at
Speaker 2: it even uh even and even even through you know,
Speaker 2: when dinner was served and even afterwards, and uh it
Speaker 2: uh you know it it came to nothing. And that was.
Speaker 2: That was the last summit. There was the last summer
Speaker 2: between Franco and UH and the fere and really like
Speaker 2: any any official representatives of of of their respective office,
Speaker 2: you know, it's the the Blue Division deployed, you know,
Speaker 2: to the Eastern Front. You know, they fought valiantly, particularly
Speaker 2: at Leningrad. But I mean that, uh, that was that.
Speaker 2: You know, there was no Franco is no nearer uh
Speaker 2: you know, joining the axis than he had been at
Speaker 2: you know prior to the meeting soon Air. You know,
Speaker 2: if anything, he probably sabotaged the proceedings in some small
Speaker 2: way or possibly even a major way by his you know,
Speaker 2: kind of uncouth conduct, however well intentioned it might have been,
Speaker 2: you know, and it was Uh. Hitler went on uh
Speaker 2: to meet Patent on the twenty fourth October. He readed
Speaker 2: pretend as the victory of Verdune, you know, saluted him,
Speaker 2: you know again, like treating him like, you know, with
Speaker 2: all not just with all the honors do a field
Speaker 2: marshal a little bit, you know, as also as the
Speaker 2: president of France, you know it uh, you know, but
Speaker 2: he had nothing he had you know, he had nothing
Speaker 2: to offer, you know. In the French, the patience perspective was,
Speaker 2: you know, we're already at war with the UK, Like
Speaker 2: what more do you want from us? You know, And
Speaker 2: I mean, for the record, you know that continued throughout
Speaker 2: the war. You know, I don't need to remind people,
Speaker 2: you know who another history that the final defenders of
Speaker 2: of uh, the CHS Thug and the fear of Bunker
Speaker 2: were uh, you know, the French off and SS you know,
Speaker 2: Charlot Meine. You know, but it was it was a
Speaker 2: you know, he just reiterated, you know containing you know,
Speaker 2: it's the France can only afford the role of non
Speaker 2: belligerent and official capacities, you know, over the time being,
Speaker 2: you know, otherwise otherwise you know, and defend as you
Speaker 2: know what we can in Africa, you know, from the
Speaker 2: common enemy. But you know, beyond that, there's there's there's
Speaker 2: nothing to be done unless you know, Spain's willing to
Speaker 2: come to terms.
Speaker 1: And uh, that.
Speaker 2: Was that kind of the final kind of the final
Speaker 2: chapter was in the final they're the nailing the coffin. Rather.
Speaker 2: A month subsequent, November twenty eighth, nineteen forty, Ribbon Troup's
Speaker 2: ambassador in Berlin, the foreign the German ambassador to to Madrid,
Speaker 2: to Spain in Madrid Eperlin, he relayed that Frank was
Speaker 2: now willing to proceed with East of Pursy preparations for
Speaker 2: Spain's proposed entry into the war if you know Hitler
Speaker 2: was willing to you know, if Hitler was willing to
Speaker 2: now come to terms, you know, in some way that
Speaker 2: you know, both men could live with. Hitler took this
Speaker 2: to mean that this meant that Franco was willing to
Speaker 2: enter the war immediately, you know, pending uh, the satisfaction
Speaker 2: and conditions precedent. On December fourth, he sent Canarist to
Speaker 2: Franco with a personal letter proposing that German troops formally
Speaker 2: enter Spain and you know, prepare uh to assault Gibraltar,
Speaker 2: which six was six hundred miles from the frontier. Okay,
Speaker 2: so we're talking. You're talking about a real deployment across
Speaker 2: across you know, the Spanish heartland, which is no small thing.
Speaker 2: But again it I mean, considering, considering, you know, the
Speaker 2: course of negotiations, this would not this was not an
Speaker 2: outlandish request. And let's forget that. You know, German forces
Speaker 2: spent three years fighting, you know, on Spanish soil to
Speaker 2: you know, guarantee the existence of Franco and his people,
Speaker 2: you know, and subsequently the government that they now you know,
Speaker 2: they now they now enjoyed in Madrid. So this, uh, this,
Speaker 2: this was perfectly well placed in customary you know terms
Speaker 2: as well as you know, the commonly accepted sort of
Speaker 2: rights and privileges of of allies. You know. Franco afforded
Speaker 2: Canarius along audience on December seventh, nineteen forty as an
Speaker 2: auspicious day. Auspicious day, you know, one year prior to
Speaker 2: Harbor Pearl Harbor exactly. Franco said to Canaris that for
Speaker 2: economic reasons relating to you know, the terrible cost of
Speaker 2: the Civil War. Spain could not be ready to assault
Speaker 2: the UK by January tenth. Spain could only and Spain
Speaker 2: could only join the war. Furthermore, if Britain was on
Speaker 2: the on the brink of collapse, you know, any kind
Speaker 2: of attrition contest, you know, Spain just could not commit
Speaker 2: to that, which again was just you know, uh, it
Speaker 2: was it was. It was, it was, it was, It
Speaker 2: was just. It was just. Frank was favorite method once
Speaker 2: again of finding a way to to you know, to
Speaker 2: not to not commit to the alliance while uh wrong
Speaker 2: footing his enemy and in some in some way how
Speaker 2: we're transparent, that might have been it. Uh. Hitler's rebuttal
Speaker 2: response uh to the Canaris meeting was, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: just again you know too, to reiterate, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: the that Gibraltar was essential that you know, unless uh,
Speaker 2: unless the United Tignam was deprived of its access to
Speaker 2: the Mediterranean, you know it, Uh, it would soon prevail
Speaker 2: in North Africa. Hitler had no illusions about that, and
Speaker 2: ultimately that would be the end of Spain. And you know,
Speaker 2: he reminded him too that without the help of you know,
Speaker 2: himself and Mussolini either would be no nationalist Spain today,
Speaker 2: nor they be any Cardillo, you know, and he said
Speaker 2: that Franco's vacillating, added to dude, was uh not befitting
Speaker 2: a general officer, which seemed to stink deep because uh
Speaker 2: Franco proceeded to angrily denounce not Hitler himself, but he
Speaker 2: gained close. He told Canarious that he never vacillated. Uh
Speaker 2: you know that he he he was always committed to
Speaker 2: the cause. But that you know, Spain has been bled white,
Speaker 2: you know, because the fight against Bolshevism, you know, occurred,
Speaker 2: you know, on their territory first and foremost. And you know,
Speaker 2: how dare you're going to question the sacrifice of Spanish
Speaker 2: manhood and all. But the theory was right and Franco
Speaker 2: was wrong. And I mean it's that simple. I and
Speaker 2: again too, I mean aside from that, I mean, all
Speaker 2: all this which is obvious kind of who's cobol and
Speaker 2: who you know was responsible for the inability of you know,
Speaker 2: any any kind of real concourd to emerge between uh,
Speaker 2: you know, Germany, Italy, uh, Spain and France. It's clear that,
Speaker 2: I mean, Franco was a unless one puts, you know,
Speaker 2: self preservation above all other goods. It's it's obvious that
Speaker 2: Franco was really kind of a pox on on the
Speaker 2: house proverbial house of of of all patriotic forces. Then
Speaker 2: UH so mobilized and engaged against uh, you know, the
Speaker 2: Bolsheviks and UH and their allies in Britain. This the
Speaker 2: situation was a complicated by Mussoli jumping the gun and
Speaker 2: informing Hitler that he intended to assault Greece, which in
Speaker 2: turn obviously would have given the UK a pretext to
Speaker 2: occupy Crete and then you know, to bring UH their
Speaker 2: strategic bombers within striking distance of the Mediterranean theater. I mean,
Speaker 2: there was there was other things too that were rendering
Speaker 2: this the timetable, uh you know, and that we're putting
Speaker 2: pressure on you know, that the strategic timetable for any
Speaker 2: sort of remedial action to be taken with respect to
Speaker 2: Gibraltar or anywhere else the Mediterranean.
Speaker 1: So go ahead was in Hitler really at that point
Speaker 1: had just asked Mussolini to make sure that the Suez
Speaker 1: Canal was secure.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And there was an ongoing there was an
Speaker 2: ongoing uh you know, controversy as to you know, to
Speaker 2: what degree the uh, the North African campaign should be
Speaker 2: prioritized and to what degree then you know that this
Speaker 2: this was before uh you know Rammel had uh had
Speaker 2: had you know, struck these great victories out and you
Speaker 2: know in uh in the North African theater. I mean
Speaker 2: initially it was initially the avercorre deployed, you know, to
Speaker 2: relieve you know, the Italians who were you know, failing
Speaker 2: in every conceivable capacity and operational terms, you know, and
Speaker 2: then later when uh, you know wrong. I think it's
Speaker 2: somewhat over overly praised because he's a romantic figure and plus,
Speaker 2: you know, people look at him as a good guy
Speaker 2: because he he he was wrongfully implicated in the July
Speaker 2: twenty plot, but he was nonetheless implicated and you know
Speaker 2: the sad stoppo, you know, forcing to commit suicide. But
Speaker 2: he it was uh, you know, it was it was
Speaker 2: Rommel's you know, uh, you know, Prussian commitment to missionary
Speaker 2: and attactics like Ritt Large, which kind of you know,
Speaker 2: which kind of made North Africa into like a into
Speaker 2: like a you know, a real battle theater because of
Speaker 2: the fact is that he kept succeeding. But yeah, the
Speaker 2: the Uh. That that was basically the Italian armies. That
Speaker 2: that's what that that, that's what their responsibility was, you know,
Speaker 2: vis a vis the UH, the Access Alliance and that UH.
Speaker 2: And yeah, the Italian army in North Africa was problematic.
Speaker 2: I think the Italians fought pretty heroically on the Eastern Front,
Speaker 2: but the UH and in the Balkans there their mountain troops.
Speaker 2: We were real game and real tough. But the the
Speaker 2: Italian forces in Africa were not. They were not good,
Speaker 2: and they were a liability in a lot of ways,
Speaker 2: with some exceptions. I don't I don't want like Italian
Speaker 2: people to get mad or something. You think I'm saying
Speaker 2: something bad about them, I'm not. But the Italian army
Speaker 2: had had.
Speaker 1: You've already pissed off the Spanish.
Speaker 2: So I mean, yeah, I don't wanna I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's said, I don't want a whole form of Latin
Speaker 2: people who are a man at me. But the UH,
Speaker 2: you know, that was that was uh, that was that
Speaker 2: and a lot of this too. I mentioned, Uh. I
Speaker 2: mentioned Walter.
Speaker 1: Right as you said I mentioned and then you cut out.
Speaker 1: So what did you say?
Speaker 2: I said, I mentioned Walter Walter? Hewell, a minute ago. Uh.
Speaker 2: A lot of this testimony comes from hewell, you know,
Speaker 2: and what he what he documented in his diaries and things,
Speaker 2: and hewell was he was a career diplomat, and after
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three he became chief at the East Asian
Speaker 2: disc of the Foreign Ministry, and then during the war
Speaker 2: he became special liaison between the Foreign Ministry and the FEAR,
Speaker 2: and he and Hitler became quite close. And Hewill was
Speaker 2: an interesting guy, kind of like an unassuming guy, like
Speaker 2: the kind of guy who is a great diplomat. Like
Speaker 2: if if Hewell could have been negotiating with soon ere,
Speaker 2: there would have been a very different outcome, I believe.
Speaker 2: But my point is that uh, hewles Uh, he's a credit.
Speaker 2: He is a credible source on this, and he he
Speaker 2: really had no observing these things in his like private
Speaker 2: diary where he was talking to himself, you know, like
Speaker 2: here there really would be no reason why to finesse
Speaker 2: these things. And frankly too, I mean again, I don't think,
Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think anybody really looks good
Speaker 2: or reasonable in this MILEU except the Hitler himself, you know,
Speaker 2: Like I'm sure that take makes people mad too. But
Speaker 2: speaking within you know the bound irrationality of uh of
Speaker 2: you know, the strategic planning, you know, based on the
Speaker 2: conditions confronted you know, by all combatant states on the
Speaker 2: acts of side as of October nineteen forty. And you
Speaker 2: know this that this should not had developed the way
Speaker 2: it did. But it goes to show you the human factor,
Speaker 2: you know, and people and there you know, idiosyncrasies and
Speaker 2: personality and and everything else. I mean it is, UH
Speaker 2: is like like like sabotages the best laid planned in
Speaker 2: nations more than any any army could, you know, much
Speaker 2: of the time. And like that's not just some dumb cliche,
Speaker 2: but that's uh, that's the story of UH. This is
Speaker 2: the story of you know, the Cordillo and the Furor,
Speaker 2: and you know the conspicuous absence of Spain and you
Speaker 2: know on the on the battlefields of World War two
Speaker 2: save for the Blue Division later the Blue Legion when
Speaker 2: they were reconstituted, who were very who fought heroically again,
Speaker 2: But you know, that's that's why. And that's all I got.
Speaker 1: Par too good, Let's do plugs and get out of here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I realized I haven't been plugging my website.
Speaker 2: I do have a website now. It's number seven h
Speaker 2: M A S seven seven seven dot com, which is
Speaker 2: Thomas seven seven seven dot com. It's kind of like
Speaker 2: a one stop not kind I mean, it's a one
Speaker 2: stop place for all my content, okay, And I still
Speaker 2: gotta like tweak some stuff that, like my Twitter feed
Speaker 2: like shows up there in the timely manner, but pretty
Speaker 2: much all like that video stuff I do like here
Speaker 2: with Pete and other things, you know, shows up here,
Speaker 2: like my podcast, you can like access it there, you know,
Speaker 2: just like one off streams I appear on and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, you can find it there. And I'm gonna
Speaker 2: sucks it up and like fix some of the glitches.
Speaker 2: And but I mean you can go here now and
Speaker 2: it's like up and running, okay. But the stuff that
Speaker 2: doesn't work particularly well yet, that's getting worked out. Uh.
Speaker 2: You can still find me on Twitter if you request
Speaker 2: to follow me, I will let you follow me. I
Speaker 2: I just rubber stamp, but as it were, but I've
Speaker 2: got to have my tweets protected because otherwise, like a
Speaker 2: bunch of freaks like Zert rush me and get me banned,
Speaker 2: which just happened like twelve times I'm not just talking
Speaker 2: you shit. You can find me at substack if you
Speaker 2: can find my podcast, it's a real Thomas seven seven
Speaker 2: seven that subseck dot com. And that's pretty much where
Speaker 2: up on. Like a lot of things are happening now.
Speaker 2: I know I've been saying that for a minute, but
Speaker 2: I am a one man operation. Like with my dear
Speaker 2: friend and editor Rake, we're a two man operation. But
Speaker 2: I'm I'm working on the second season of Mind Phaser,
Speaker 2: at which time the first season episodes will all become free.
Speaker 2: But there's a help alot going into that. There's a
Speaker 2: hell blot going into like the video we're shooting and
Speaker 2: I've got a helpot of footage, but I gotta make
Speaker 2: it into something and it's damn time consuming. Just please
Speaker 2: continue to bear with me, like I'm getting shipped together.
Speaker 2: But it's and it will be dope, but it's just
Speaker 2: taking time. That's all I got.
Speaker 1: Well until part five. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Thomas.
Speaker 2: I likewise, man, thank you.
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peas Show.
Speaker 1: We had a little delay in between episodes because Thomas's
Speaker 1: life is exciting.
Speaker 2: How you doing, Thomas, I'm doing well. Man. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: apologize for that. I want to, Like I was telling
Speaker 2: Pete before we went live, a huge amount of people
Speaker 2: reached out out of genuine concern and that's incredible man,
Speaker 2: you know it's really that. I mean not just because
Speaker 2: that you know makes anybody feel good. You know they
Speaker 2: have friends that love them, But that's the essence of
Speaker 2: the social capital I'm talking about all the time. It
Speaker 2: is like building you know, not just pragmatic networks for
Speaker 2: you know, like political action things, but in day to
Speaker 2: day life, like you know, when crises emerged, you know,
Speaker 2: as they always do it on personal terms because someone's
Speaker 2: being terrorized by the regime. You know, there there's there's
Speaker 2: a network of people that organically like springs into action,
Speaker 2: you know, and that so that that's been that's kind
Speaker 2: of the silver lining, man like if there if there
Speaker 2: was one, because that you know that the structure very
Speaker 2: much kind of like came into focus, you know, owing
Speaker 2: to owing to o into something that I mean, frankly,
Speaker 2: in the broad scheme like was not a big deal.
Speaker 2: But it's when it's going on, it's fucked up and
Speaker 2: you like disappear off the earth if you get arrested
Speaker 2: because they take away all your means of communication. So
Speaker 2: I just I didn't I'm not trying to eat up
Speaker 2: the clock. I just I just wanted this is a
Speaker 2: good opportunity to kind of like address our friends direct.
Speaker 2: But today, I this is this is the last episode
Speaker 2: where I'll approach it and what appears perhaps to be
Speaker 2: kind of a scattershot topical orientation, and we'll get into
Speaker 2: like the nuts and boats, the battlefield situation and how
Speaker 2: it resolved in the next episode. But to understand the
Speaker 2: Spanish War, and frankly too, understand the path that Franco
Speaker 2: struck out as regards to the fear and the third rite,
Speaker 2: as well as you know Spain and it's gewo strategic
Speaker 2: situation generally, you've really you've got to understand how unusual
Speaker 2: the state and as society Spain is. You know, it's
Speaker 2: a complete outlier. And what I mean by that is
Speaker 2: this even you know, I disagree. I take a strong
Speaker 2: exception to people who they're trying to identify, you know,
Speaker 2: and people with people, and then a lot of a
Speaker 2: lot of people who abide kind of Meersheimer's perspective do this.
Speaker 2: And I only reference that because generally I agree with
Speaker 2: those people on certain matters, and this is one of
Speaker 2: those cases where I don't. But you know, they posit
Speaker 2: that there's this kind of school, there's this discreete you know,
Speaker 2: sort of school of political thought, particularly strategic matters, you know,
Speaker 2: of realism, and that you know, there's some there's some
Speaker 2: sort of straight line, basically linear trajectory between these cities,
Speaker 2: you know, all the way through the people at Kings
Speaker 2: of Burnham and this nonsense. However, the first really modern
Speaker 2: political theorist was was Machiavelli. Okay, and there's a reason
Speaker 2: why Machiavelli he identified he had identified and Isabella as
Speaker 2: the first true like you know, are architects of the
Speaker 2: modern state, you know. And then then and this proceeded,
Speaker 2: this proceeded not just with failure, but the thirty years
Speaker 2: were itself by one hundred years. You know. So there's
Speaker 2: there's this lyrid economy of Spain, because Spain, you know,
Speaker 2: in living memory, it's always views either the sick man
Speaker 2: of Europe or this kind of you know, backward state comparatively,
Speaker 2: or the state that's you know, compromised in terms of
Speaker 2: its social sociological architecture, you know, by by reactionary tendencies
Speaker 2: and you know, things that are more characteristic of the
Speaker 2: developing world, you know, than they are uh that, than
Speaker 2: they are Europe, you know, America and North Asia. But
Speaker 2: Spain was a century ahead of the curve and its
Speaker 2: political development, you know, even amidst uh these arguably, you know,
Speaker 2: conditions have impoverished you know, material and social capital. And
Speaker 2: that's a curious question because to a lesser degree and
Speaker 2: in different capacities. You know, Russia was like that too.
Speaker 2: You know, there was this tremendously evolved intellectual uh climate
Speaker 2: in Russia. I mean, and it had horrible outcomes. Okay,
Speaker 2: I mean that's that's why communism and found such fertile ground.
Speaker 2: But you know, again, right, Russia was decades ahead in
Speaker 2: terms of in terms of in terms of the in
Speaker 2: terms of the intellectual paradigms. It was playing with a
Speaker 2: state craft. But in terms of material capital and the
Speaker 2: conditions that allow, you know, for material capital to truly
Speaker 2: flourish and you know, and provide technological development, those things,
Speaker 2: those things were absent. And that also you know, Spain,
Speaker 2: unlike most empires space to say, Spain, the Spanish Empire
Speaker 2: didn't become rich. It probably in it's in the terms
Speaker 2: we understand health and money. This Spain, the Spanish Remora
Speaker 2: zine that was was was the well these empire that
Speaker 2: ever existed. Okay, you know, it spanned his planet. It
Speaker 2: was able to challenge the Royal Navy, you know it
Speaker 2: it was just it was just like it was. It
Speaker 2: was a juggernaut basically. You know, it was just incredibly powerful.
Speaker 2: But it's social art sector didn't really become more complex
Speaker 2: with that. You know, it's it's wild we overstated or
Speaker 2: people to talk about this, you know, the middle class
Speaker 2: like it's this ambassador class, and like it can finesse
Speaker 2: these intrinsic you know, alleged hostilities you know, between a
Speaker 2: master and serf, from between like aristocrat and peasant, or
Speaker 2: between uh you know, proletarian and and and and a
Speaker 2: high bourgeoisie and and that's nonsense. But there is like
Speaker 2: something of a causal nexus there. I think it's more
Speaker 2: just that, you know, as social theological architecture becomes more diversified,
Speaker 2: owing to the increased complexity of economic activity and behavior
Speaker 2: at scale, that there just becomes more and more kinds
Speaker 2: of threads of complex integration and interdependence between institutions and
Speaker 2: people's and that appears from without you know, if you
Speaker 2: want to like turn into an event diagram as this
Speaker 2: kind of middle class you know, being embassed, you know,
Speaker 2: playing in an ambassador role, but regardless of you know,
Speaker 2: the chicken or the egg and how that resolves in
Speaker 2: one's own mind or in real terms. That that didn't
Speaker 2: happen in Spain, Okay, you have this historically divided society
Speaker 2: and they, you know, finally when the nineteenth century arrived.
Speaker 2: You know, the Spanish didn't Spain had a totally earerent
Speaker 2: experience in the nineteenth century than everybody else did, you know,
Speaker 2: like the long Piece, they didn't experience that. Instead of
Speaker 2: the experienced incredibly you know, chaotic circumstances. They were punctuated
Speaker 2: by crisis after crisis after crisis after crisis, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, way eighteen fourteen, you know, they were occupied
Speaker 2: by Napoleon. You know, they didn't just they weren't just
Speaker 2: you know, they weren't just part of you know, the
Speaker 2: alliance that at the Battle of Nations or something. You know,
Speaker 2: they they were they were under occupation for for for
Speaker 2: close to a decade, you know, and from there it.
Speaker 2: You know, like we talked about in a week or
Speaker 2: two ago, really the only kind of punctuated, uh, military
Speaker 2: crises in the nineteenth century in Europe were localized. You know.
Speaker 2: There was like the Franco Prussian War, it was the
Speaker 2: Crimean War, but neither one of those, you know, really
Speaker 2: were as impactful like outside of a theater level. And
Speaker 2: there's the eighteen forty eight revolutions, but that that that
Speaker 2: that was nothing like nineteen seventeen or like or like
Speaker 2: seventeen eighty nine. You know. But in the case of Spain,
Speaker 2: they they're they they came to civil war. Conditions were
Speaker 2: emerging in eighteen twenty two, eighteen twenty three, and French
Speaker 2: military intervention ended that eighteen twenty seven, there was the
Speaker 2: Catalan insurrection. You know, in these and these and these
Speaker 2: uh these uh these secession oriented you know, the political
Speaker 2: movements on sundry in Spain like always had always had
Speaker 2: traction in peculiar ways. Eighteen thirty three, eighteen forty it
Speaker 2: was the first Carlist War, which was incredibly bloody, you know,
Speaker 2: eighteen fifty nine, you know, the Moroccan orb independence pops
Speaker 2: off eighteen seventy to eighteen seventy six, there's the Second
Speaker 2: Carlist War. During this whole time, Spain was fighting in
Speaker 2: in in the Americas, you know, because of these Hispanic
Speaker 2: American colonial revolts, you know, eighteen sixty eighteen eighteen sixty
Speaker 2: eight to eighteen seventy eight, there's the Ten Years War
Speaker 2: in Cuba and the subsequently Spain literally fought America, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean this, this is the uh, the degree, the
Speaker 2: degree with in Spain and the Two Cuban and the
Speaker 2: Two Cuban Wars lost over one hundred thousand kia. You know.
Speaker 2: No European power absorbed that much military attrition. There were
Speaker 2: loss as much territory and so rapid its time frame
Speaker 2: as Spain did in the nineteenth century. You know. Uh,
Speaker 2: I'd say what happened in Spain at reduced scale and
Speaker 2: adjusting for strategic conditions of the of the of the
Speaker 2: power political landscape, what happened in Spain was as catastrophic
Speaker 2: as what happened to the Soviet Union? Are you believing
Speaker 2: more so? That Spain was quite literally violently ripped apart,
Speaker 2: you know, and it was this is how the this
Speaker 2: is what gave birth to the Spanish Revolutionary Left. Okay,
Speaker 2: the Spanish Revolutionary Left was always more savage, more sanguinary,
Speaker 2: more aggressive, more unwilling to compromise than than anybody except
Speaker 2: probably the Bolsheviks who succeeded them, and uh you know
Speaker 2: in the Jacobans, who inspired every every radical tendency subsequent.
Speaker 2: But in eighteen twenty one is kind of viewed as
Speaker 2: the year that the Spanish revolutionary Left came about. What
Speaker 2: they were, the big the kind of seminal moment in
Speaker 2: uh in a subsequent to you know, ferinand and Isabella,
Speaker 2: you know, creating the Spanish national state was the Constitution
Speaker 2: of eighteen twelve. And I'm sure gonna butcher this pronunciation,
Speaker 2: but these liberal reformers, like some of them are quite radical,
Speaker 2: you know, who are most responsible for structuring and authoring
Speaker 2: of that constitution or they were called Doquianistas or Dosinistas.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's a hard or soft seat,
Speaker 2: but they were pretty pretty rapidly moderated after they got
Speaker 2: their weight, and they tried to implement a parliamentarian structure,
Speaker 2: you know, of true sort of power sharing arrangements at
Speaker 2: interval that by which you know, due process would be
Speaker 2: abided regardless of the outcome of parliamentary elections. Okay, this
Speaker 2: is the last time any faction in the left ever
Speaker 2: abided that. And by eighteen twenty one, the disinfection from within,
Speaker 2: you know, essentially the young Turks who came known as
Speaker 2: the Exaltados. Their whole notion was, look, you know that
Speaker 2: the prize in political contest, you know, within the state
Speaker 2: are the state itself. Okay, if you know, if if
Speaker 2: we're gonna you know, if every if every three or
Speaker 2: six or eight or ten years, you know, we're gonna
Speaker 2: we're gonna briefly capture, you know, we're gonna really capture
Speaker 2: you know, legislative majorities and things, you know, and then
Speaker 2: just rush to you know, implement as much relief to
Speaker 2: you know, to uh, to our class comrades as as
Speaker 2: as as possible. But then immediately, you know, hand the
Speaker 2: range of state over to our enemies and watch that
Speaker 2: be undone. You know, we're that that's that's uh, that's
Speaker 2: beyond a fool's Errand you know, it's it's some it's
Speaker 2: a it's gonna and and it's it's beyond and even
Speaker 2: pointless some you know, sort of acceptance of the status
Speaker 2: quo because that like obviously over time that simply grinds down,
Speaker 2: you know, the revolutionary uh impetus like in in the
Speaker 2: minds of of anyone who participates in the system, because
Speaker 2: you know, a definition the system exists and neutralized, you know,
Speaker 2: not just like like like reformist tendencies, let let alone
Speaker 2: revolutionary ones. Okay, So exultatos, we're now willing to surrender
Speaker 2: the ground, you know, for the sake of due process
Speaker 2: or or or constidential consent, power sharing or anything else. Okay.
Speaker 2: And there's a very Schmidtian concept of state, you know,
Speaker 2: and not and and that I mean and that that
Speaker 2: that makes sense, okay for for all kinds of reasons.
Speaker 2: But the uh, the main, the main characteristic of the
Speaker 2: Iseltatos and what remained as kind of the core essence
Speaker 2: of the French or at the front the Spanish radical
Speaker 2: left subsequent was a total rejection and moderation and an
Speaker 2: employment of violence not just to secure, uh, not just
Speaker 2: to secure absolute you know, majoritarian consensus, but also to
Speaker 2: enforce government policy once they accomplished or captured that consensus,
Speaker 2: you know, and and and a view that it was
Speaker 2: perfectly legitimate to enforce, not just enforce compliance you know,
Speaker 2: through use of of of a violent terror apparatus, but
Speaker 2: also to crush all all resistance and the president they
Speaker 2: drew upon. You know, when when when these kinds of
Speaker 2: more liberal minded moderates would say, look, you know, we
Speaker 2: all want the same things. You know where you're you're
Speaker 2: setting us back with these kinds of sanguinary longings. The
Speaker 2: rebuttal was, look, you know that our president for this
Speaker 2: is seventeen eighty nine. You know, and if you think
Speaker 2: the Jacobins were, you know, we're willing to come to
Speaker 2: the table with royalists and and and engage in horse trading.
Speaker 2: You know, you're you're you're out of your mind or
Speaker 2: you're a liar, you know, and within the bound rationality
Speaker 2: they're objectives. They did have a point, you can't you
Speaker 2: can't transpose, you can't transpose parliamentarism to uh a body
Speaker 2: politic where there's no moral consensus. And uh, you can't
Speaker 2: the entire theory of of progressive as government with a
Speaker 2: capital P even that itself uh you know as uh
Speaker 2: it's epistemic priors are basically that you know, in conditions
Speaker 2: where that consensus didn't exist before it has been achieved.
Speaker 2: You know, as a conditioned precedent of of uh you know,
Speaker 2: of of of of of our program. Okay, so all
Speaker 2: these things, it should become clear that kind of like
Speaker 2: a perfect storm. I mean, I it sound corny, but
Speaker 2: a perfect constellation maybe more properly of factors, uh, you
Speaker 2: know many uh many owing to an escapable precedent that
Speaker 2: set Spain on a uniquely kind of tragic course.
Speaker 1: But also you know, just after yeah, after that uh
Speaker 1: technical difficulty.
Speaker 2: Uh, that's all good, it's uh, it's kind of nostalgic,
Speaker 2: you know. But the But at the same time, mean,
Speaker 2: no matter how much you exult the you know, the
Speaker 2: the kind of law of the blade and the barrel
Speaker 2: of a gun over you know, that of the per
Speaker 2: real pen and paper of you know, money and and
Speaker 2: buying your way to to you know, policy realization. No, no,
Speaker 2: no matter how much you're enthralled the violence and coercion
Speaker 2: as sort of the currency of of uh, of authority,
Speaker 2: at some point that that that sort of runs its course,
Speaker 2: you know, and and it develops, it develops a crisis
Speaker 2: of legitimacy, you know, and then people just get sick
Speaker 2: of it. And this is exactly what happened, and uh
Speaker 2: the the again once again to the Exultatles were overthrown
Speaker 2: by by the French army on uh W, which which
Speaker 2: became you know, it's it's interesting because a peculiar kind
Speaker 2: of a peculiar kind of uh interdependence developed, like like
Speaker 2: these multiple French military interventions. You know, this wasn't this
Speaker 2: wasn't like the vermach like assaulting the Soviet Union or
Speaker 2: like the Soviet Union like you know, assaulting Poland or something.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, there's always like the deserts, categorical hostility
Speaker 2: like the jury in defecto when you're talking about you know,
Speaker 2: armed men of you know, understatus of alienage, you know,
Speaker 2: crossing a sovereign frontier. But after uh, after Waterloo, it
Speaker 2: there they just became you know, like the one of
Speaker 2: the checks on h on anarchy. As Spain you know,
Speaker 2: kind of went through this painful nineteenth century was uh,
Speaker 2: you know, a tolerance if not you know, out and
Speaker 2: out acceptance of uh a French interventionism, uh you know,
Speaker 2: beyond their their common border. When you know, things appear
Speaker 2: to be careering towards open civil war, and I mean
Speaker 2: that that's that's a tangent, but it is it is
Speaker 2: interesting and it goes to show you that, uh, some
Speaker 2: of the Westphalian paradigm, uh in condition to peace between
Speaker 2: states is a myth like this idea that you know,
Speaker 2: borders are rigid to the point that you know, we
Speaker 2: can't even talk about you know, complex interdependence as having
Speaker 2: any you know sort of sort of high high concern
Speaker 2: and high politics. But to put this in perspective, like
Speaker 2: a dear friend of ours who came to visit me
Speaker 2: the other week, uh he uh, he was kind of
Speaker 2: have to mail me Stanley G. Paynes, p A Y
Speaker 2: N E. Like I guess like Max Pain for the
Speaker 2: for the for the gamer bros on the But this
Speaker 2: is a this is a very like storied book that
Speaker 2: and and our friend like mailed it to me, which
Speaker 2: is great. So I read it after I got back
Speaker 2: from jail, and it's shocked full of facts and figures
Speaker 2: and it basically deals with uh like the book itself,
Speaker 2: it basically deals with, you know what, like the unraveling
Speaker 2: of the Spanish Republic, you know, especially the especially the
Speaker 2: critical months through nineteen thirty five and in nineteen thirty
Speaker 2: six before I'm not at the point of the formal
Speaker 2: onset of hostilities.
Speaker 1: But people are going to ask, people are going to
Speaker 1: ask what the name of the book is.
Speaker 2: So oh it's uh the Collapse of the Spanish Republic. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, by Stanley G. Payne again, p A Y
Speaker 2: n E. It's got nothing to do with like Marky
Speaker 2: Mark though, like in Max Pain, but that's like.
Speaker 1: I have like six books by him, so yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he he's written some great stuff. And like
Speaker 2: I it's not I mean everybody, especially like all I
Speaker 2: really do is is research, man, you know, like it's
Speaker 2: not me like paying myself on the back about like
Speaker 2: what a good boy I am or something, but even
Speaker 2: somebody like me who's kind of stock in trade is
Speaker 2: uh is academic research. There's there there are certain authors
Speaker 2: that you're you know, you're going to rely on more
Speaker 2: than others, and there's gonna be some that just aren't
Speaker 2: really in your personal cannon. And like not only any
Speaker 2: conceptual prejudice or something or judgment on quality, you know,
Speaker 2: punitive or or praising. But for whatever reason, uh, Pain
Speaker 2: never sort of entered into my personal canon. So uh again, uh,
Speaker 2: dude knows who he is who sent us this book?
Speaker 2: And that's awesome, and it's been a huge help for
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why it's shocked full of of
Speaker 2: data that you know, is not i mean not data
Speaker 2: for data's sake, but you know, data of a material
Speaker 2: of entering nature that helps put things into you know,
Speaker 2: kind of high relief as regardless perspective and kind of
Speaker 2: the sequences after from from the Napoleon occupation and or
Speaker 2: Waterloo onward. They got the phases in in in modern
Speaker 2: Spanish politics were you know, from eighteen to white to
Speaker 2: eighteen fourteen, there was a there there there there was
Speaker 2: a leftist regime in power, you know, And it's that
Speaker 2: that that'd be worthy of an entire episode or a
Speaker 2: couple of episodes, like what the relationship was of Napoleonism
Speaker 2: to or Bonapartism to Jacobinism, and that's that, that's that's
Speaker 2: that is a Gailian processes written all over it. But
Speaker 2: make no mistake, uh, this this was this this this
Speaker 2: wasn't Neo Jacobin regime at the reins during the occupation
Speaker 2: again from eighteen twenty, eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty five
Speaker 2: and thirty eight, eighteen fifty and fifty six, sixty eighteen
Speaker 2: seventy three, nineteen seventeen, ninety twenty three, and then of
Speaker 2: course in nineteen thirty one, ninety thirty nine. You know,
Speaker 2: these were the the these are the these are the
Speaker 2: phases of the or the or the electoral cycles or
Speaker 2: constellation of cycles wherein the radical left essentially controlled the
Speaker 2: entire national government. Okay, and again you know, as soon
Speaker 2: as one as soon as as soon as one faction
Speaker 2: would would lose to the other. You know, they have
Speaker 2: every every everything there everything they're outgoing enemy had done
Speaker 2: what was sabotage, you know, I mean, so it was
Speaker 2: this it was just kind of like stalemate by design
Speaker 2: and government, you know, and I mean that that's the
Speaker 2: case of the center not being able to hold Also,
Speaker 2: even uh if conditions aren't such that, you know, civil
Speaker 2: war is uh inevitable. You're you're dealing event You're you're
Speaker 2: dealing with the state that eventually is going to become
Speaker 2: a failed state. Okay, the uh, the right wing control
Speaker 2: of the regime, you know, whether it was you know,
Speaker 2: whether whether it was you know, gonna get get conventional
Speaker 2: Spanish nationalists, you know, like Carloss you know, uh, like
Speaker 2: there's like various right wingers. You know, they're they're their
Speaker 2: tenure or there. The other phases of of of government,
Speaker 2: you know, dominance was uh, you know post Water eighteen fourteen,
Speaker 2: eighteen twenty, eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty three, eighteen thirty nine,
Speaker 2: eighteen fifty four, which is interesting because again staining an outlier.
Speaker 2: You know, they avoided the eighteen forty eight revolutions because
Speaker 2: you know, the right had the country locked down eighteen fifties,
Speaker 2: eighteen fifty six to eighteen sixty eight, eighteen seventy four,
Speaker 2: ninety seventeen, nineteen twenty three to ninety thirty one, and
Speaker 2: of course nineteen thirty nine to nineteen seventy five. I
Speaker 2: take some exception to that. I don't think we can
Speaker 2: talk about the Franco regime after about nineteen fifty four
Speaker 2: as being rightest. I just don't. Okay. Again, it was
Speaker 2: in another example of Spain being a remarkable outlier. But
Speaker 2: I accept what Pain is getting at. And again that
Speaker 2: same paradigm was re emergent. Uh, it wasn't you know,
Speaker 2: there was it wasn't bloody and uh and and who
Speaker 2: almost apocalyptic like as is the case with the sales
Speaker 2: are regime, you know which uh and Seals are the
Speaker 2: fascinating guy, and you know, and the and the and
Speaker 2: the the Portuguese were we're fighting alongside the Rhodesians against
Speaker 2: the communists, you know, for for decades in Africa. You
Speaker 2: know Ian Smith, who who is It's not like his
Speaker 2: pros is particularly elegant or like edifying. And I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that Ahead of State should bother with that. But
Speaker 2: if people are looking for a book that provides that
Speaker 2: sort of inspiration and kind of pleasurable reading, that's not
Speaker 2: the book for you. But there's key insights into the
Speaker 2: mind of Ian Smith. And Smith talks about sales Ar
Speaker 2: is a truly great man. You know. He said, if
Speaker 2: a Slider could have hung on, you know, for two
Speaker 2: or three more years, we probably could have you know,
Speaker 2: we probably could have smashed you know, like Zany upf
Speaker 2: and you know, and and you know and and and
Speaker 2: the proxies of the the wars off hects. But it's
Speaker 2: it's uh, but again that you know, they're they're like
Speaker 2: like Franco wasn't Salizar and Uh there was no Carnation
Speaker 2: Revolution or whatever the uh the Progressive Uprising against Salazar
Speaker 2: was branded. Memory fails me at the minute. I'm still
Speaker 2: kind of shaken off the weekend. But I don't mean
Speaker 2: I go was out like chasing skirt and like guzzling
Speaker 2: Scotch or something. I mean like I got my ass
Speaker 2: kicked this weekend and it hurt my brain. But the
Speaker 2: uh another thing to consider too, you know, the uh,
Speaker 2: the strong suit. I think inarguably in every other state
Speaker 2: where you know radicals and or Bolsheviks and or you know,
Speaker 2: ideological offshoots, you know, whether they were you know, left
Speaker 2: wing syndical lists, you know, uh, anarcho syndical lists, like anarchists.
Speaker 2: I mean, even among the anarchists, there was a kind
Speaker 2: of rigid cadre structure whereby the inner discipline of the
Speaker 2: party and it's cadres was what carried the day and
Speaker 2: allowed them to allow you know, and carry them to victory.
Speaker 2: In Spain, uh, the Spanish left, it was even more naked,
Speaker 2: least sectarian personal like characterized by the faux messianic delusions
Speaker 2: of of individual like players within it. You know, it
Speaker 2: was it was pointlessly like inwardly directed, secretive like these
Speaker 2: guys were constantly at war with each other. You know,
Speaker 2: far far far more than in far more fractious than
Speaker 2: the right wing was, you know. And that's the only
Speaker 2: state like that. And that's not me saying like I mean,
Speaker 2: the right wing is a lot more organic, okay, and
Speaker 2: uh and that you know, and and and it's it
Speaker 2: doesn't emerge. It didn't. It doesn't emerge from some you know,
Speaker 2: from from a literal central committee. Okay. It's that there's
Speaker 2: there's there's reasons of a structural and sociological and historical nature.
Speaker 2: Like conventionally, you know, the modern uh radical left has
Speaker 2: more internal discipline than the right. Okay. But that's why
Speaker 2: it's so striking that in Spain like this was it
Speaker 2: was literally the opposite, you know. And it also explains
Speaker 2: why there this thing started when the Hrmacht intervened, you know,
Speaker 2: invon Toma's u uh you know, counter legion and von
Speaker 2: Tona's tanks and you know these uh and and he's
Speaker 2: been and he stud like battlefield commanders, and Franco had
Speaker 2: had a great eye for for like company level officers,
Speaker 2: I don't know their equivalent to be in the Spanish
Speaker 2: duvery of the day, but like like junior officers. So
Speaker 2: you need you know, to be like platoon leaders and
Speaker 2: company commanders like Franco and Franco's staff, like they knew
Speaker 2: how to culture that kind of talent. Okay, So by
Speaker 2: the time these pressures came to bear, like politically, like
Speaker 2: the French left is like falling apart, you know, and
Speaker 2: not even uh, not even you know, not even the
Speaker 2: n k v D on the ground, not even dudes
Speaker 2: like Eric Milk, like you know, just like whacking people
Speaker 2: who just like you know, just cause like he was
Speaker 2: probably an asshole anyway, and you know he his is
Speaker 2: you know, he wasn't doing what he had to do too,
Speaker 2: you know, sustain like internal discipline you know, within his
Speaker 2: own chain of command and stuff like even with all
Speaker 2: that like conventionally like almost comically it's not common when
Speaker 2: they're talking about like extreme brutality, but that kind of
Speaker 2: like you know, even even a kind of like ridiculous
Speaker 2: level of like stalinists like you know, like compliance through
Speaker 2: like massive brutal violence, like this is still couldn't even
Speaker 2: like phase like this function of the process that they
Speaker 2: just enumerated. And towards the end two you know, talking
Speaker 2: about Spain being ironically you know, decades and in the
Speaker 2: case of the Spanish mountern state emergence, you know, a
Speaker 2: century you know, ahead of the rest of the continent.
Speaker 2: The first uh, the first the first attempt to truly
Speaker 2: organize like a trade like a trade union that you know,
Speaker 2: with an eye for the ability to ultimately you know,
Speaker 2: extoric concessions to general strike h that occurred as really
Speaker 2: is the eighteen thirties, okay, like decades before the American
Speaker 2: War between the States. You know, there's guys in Spain,
Speaker 2: you know, who were talking like a narcocynic list and
Speaker 2: like talking talking like Marcus Atlantis. You know, that's pretty
Speaker 2: crazy and pretty remarkable, all right, especially again we consider that,
Speaker 2: you know, it's I'm not like trading Spain like Spain.
Speaker 2: Spain is fucking incredible. But you know, we're not talking
Speaker 2: about like terrorists, and we're not talking about like Berlin,
Speaker 2: and we're not talking about like London. You know, we're
Speaker 2: talking about Spain. In some cases, you know, like very
Speaker 2: provincial places in Spain that you know, not only weren't
Speaker 2: known for their their kind of cosmopol and embrace of
Speaker 2: exotic ideologies, you know, and things that just kind of
Speaker 2: like tickle the fantasy of aristocrats just you know, thought
Speaker 2: experiments that can be played out with real people. You know. Uh,
Speaker 2: these guys were thinking and absolutely in like twentieth century terms,
Speaker 2: but they were doing so a century early, you know,
Speaker 2: and they were wing still I missed uh uh you
Speaker 2: know a state that was that was still like you know,
Speaker 2: almost entirely like a greery and in terms of its
Speaker 2: local uh, his local economic output that, as Cyrus says
Speaker 2: in The Warriors, is a miracle. But Giuseppe Finelle he
Speaker 2: was an early uh figure of of of advance of
Speaker 2: importance within uh the post Jacobin but pre Leninist left
Speaker 2: and he arrived in Spain and in eighteen sixty eight
Speaker 2: he'd been a great admirer of Bakunin. You know who
Speaker 2: is Marx uh great opponent in the First International Josette
Speaker 2: Finelle he were here out to Madrid without speaking any Spanish.
Speaker 2: He basically had no money. But he said, look, and
Speaker 2: and people like he was crazy, but he said, look,
Speaker 2: he's like the idea as he called it, you know,
Speaker 2: because guy, you know, uh, paris of thought. You know,
Speaker 2: we'd call it the faith even though that's what it is.
Speaker 2: It's an airs faith, he said, the idea, uh he said,
Speaker 2: he said, look, this is the most fertile, like, this
Speaker 2: is almost fertile ground. You know, we can find for
Speaker 2: you know, for for Marxism on the content. Okay. Uh
Speaker 2: there's literally no more like fertile proverbial fertile soil than
Speaker 2: the Spanish body politic to embrace Marxism. Okay, and uh
Speaker 2: he was right, Okay, rapidly Uh uh this got a
Speaker 2: this this abundance of sex just popped up, you know,
Speaker 2: like anarchists, libertarian, you know, anarcho cynic list, you know,
Speaker 2: independent socialists, like every everything you can possibly think of. Okay,
Speaker 2: and again that ultimately served like the like the the
Speaker 2: inherent fractiousness and and sort of anarchic nature of that
Speaker 2: political culture of uh the post Jacob and left in Spain.
Speaker 2: I mean that cost him the war. And it's not
Speaker 2: I I don't accept the kind of Thomas Pain idea
Speaker 2: that like the more the more you hold an endless conversation,
Speaker 2: you know, the more like marvelous things just kind of
Speaker 2: like emerge out of motherfucker's mouths. But uh, but my
Speaker 2: point is that there was a there was a remarkably
Speaker 2: developed intellectual culture on the ground as regards politics and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, political theory unless you're talking to the like,
Speaker 2: unless you're really talking about like Straussian types are just
Speaker 2: like you know, positing like you know, like values, claims
Speaker 2: and and and trying to mind cloud from the fact that,
Speaker 2: you know, they call themselves philosophers or something like. If
Speaker 2: you're talking about if you're talking about polable theory, you're
Speaker 2: talking about you know, you're you're talking about it imagining
Speaker 2: the architecture of the state as an instrumentality of what
Speaker 2: you want to accomplish, and you're imagining, you know, how
Speaker 2: that can be structured in order to accomplish those objectives. Okay,
Speaker 2: so it is essential to any revolutionary enterprise. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 2: there can be too many theorists and too few uh
Speaker 2: you know, partisans. But the the converse is just as
Speaker 2: self defeating. Okay, I'm sure there's those who are gonna
Speaker 2: say that's like my egghead prejudice. It's not. It's not,
Speaker 2: I don't it's but it's inarguable. Okay, it's not. It's
Speaker 2: not something that it's not something that playable theory yeeks
Speaker 2: just insist upon as as a cope or whatever. But
Speaker 2: the uh, what did prevail initially in terms of the
Speaker 2: dominant strain A bear in mind epistemic priors that informed
Speaker 2: everyone in the radical left were one hundred percent Marxist
Speaker 2: in nature. But the practical tendency, ideological tendency that became,
Speaker 2: you know, most dominant, very rapidly, was we're things of
Speaker 2: an anarchist nature, okay. And in the early days it
Speaker 2: was the largest force within the urban working class of Spain.
Speaker 2: Small that as it was, but again it was it
Speaker 2: was the it was supposed to act as the vanguard. Okay,
Speaker 2: it wasn't you know, a question of taking a head count.
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of reasons why anarchism appealed so
Speaker 2: much to this population, you know, a lot of which
Speaker 2: we just got into. But also something that the left
Speaker 2: in Spain realized very early on, was there, like, look, okay,
Speaker 2: the structure of this state entails things, you know, like
Speaker 2: the Roman church, you know, and uh entails things you
Speaker 2: know like uh like chartered like chartered companies you know,
Speaker 2: that are bound up with the private fortunes of aristocrats.
Speaker 2: You know. The very architecture for the state is like
Speaker 2: teams with teams with the hostility to our objectives. So
Speaker 2: we've got to create parallel institutions. Okay, So we're gonna
Speaker 2: have you know, like the workers Relieve organization. You know,
Speaker 2: We're not We're not We're not gonna go to you know,
Speaker 2: like the monastic order is to like help out widows
Speaker 2: of like the men of ours who die. Okay, Like
Speaker 2: you know, we're not We're not. We're not gonna We're not.
Speaker 2: We're not gonna try and capture you know, the like
Speaker 2: the local constables office and in Catalonia or whatever. You know,
Speaker 2: Like we're gonna we're gonna maintain our own country discipline,
Speaker 2: you know, and we're also going to like handle our
Speaker 2: own like justice. You know, we're never going to rely
Speaker 2: upon you know, the state or any of it's some
Speaker 2: affiliated institutions and bureaucracies, you know, to guarantee as a
Speaker 2: justice or anything else. And we started as we started death.
Speaker 2: But that's the way it's going to be. And that
Speaker 2: is something enduring too that basically everybody imitated, even even
Speaker 2: even even the fascist and the National Socialist to some
Speaker 2: degree imitated that, okay, because it's just in a in
Speaker 2: a political warfare situation, especially during a long struggle, like
Speaker 2: you you just have to do that, okay. And also
Speaker 2: then you know you have you have new institutions and
Speaker 2: being that you know, have never had sort of the
Speaker 2: sovereign authority of the state behind them, but they have.
Speaker 2: They have acted in authoritative capacities on matters of life
Speaker 2: and death. And in some cases their existence is going
Speaker 2: back decades. And you know, they had existed as you know,
Speaker 2: floating like sovereigns and to themselves, you know, in the
Speaker 2: fact that they commanded, you know, they commanded and controlled
Speaker 2: you know, tens of thousands of men under arms. You know,
Speaker 2: they had operational areas that constituted like you know, territory
Speaker 2: they literally held. You know, at some point people are
Speaker 2: talking symantics when they're like, oh, that's not really a government,
Speaker 2: So what are you talking about? Why, you know what,
Speaker 2: why would you even care about you know, why would
Speaker 2: you gonna go to that trouble trying to replace the
Speaker 2: you know, pre pre existing institutions of of of state.
Speaker 2: Well that's that's why this shouldn't be It shouldn't be mysterious.
Speaker 2: And finally, uh or I mean not relatively, It wasn't
Speaker 2: just that the church and in Spain we can talk
Speaker 2: about the Church, because I mean Spain, the Spanish are
Speaker 2: Catholic people, you know it Uh, the uh, the Spanish
Speaker 2: left view they view they viewed the church and they
Speaker 2: viewed UH. Despite the fact that I mean that there's
Speaker 2: a delicious irony to fern in Isabella, you know, basically
Speaker 2: removing the mandate of U of the Holy See to
Speaker 2: render a judgment on power political questions of war in peace.
Speaker 2: Well at the same time you know, enforcing uh, you know,
Speaker 2: the moral law according to the understanding of of uh,
Speaker 2: the papacy in a way sight and scene probably for
Speaker 2: five hundred years. And there's also there's also a uh,
Speaker 2: there's also a real irony in guys, you know, like
Speaker 2: waving a red banner as they charging the combat, you know,
Speaker 2: demanding you know, social justice basically you know, assigning the
Speaker 2: Marxist gobbledygook. They're basically saying, like, we're Catholic people, you
Speaker 2: know who need you know, who need a Calolic church
Speaker 2: to sort of act as an air mediory between us
Speaker 2: and there would be class oppressors or aggressors, you know.
Speaker 2: Yet we reject the Kalok Church and want to destroy it.
Speaker 2: But again, the internal logic of it, of the enterprise.
Speaker 2: That's what they would have had to do, Okay, and
Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons people recognize us on some level,
Speaker 2: even people who aren't, you know, ultra sophisticated. Now that
Speaker 2: I'm so sophisticated, but I mean, do spend all day
Speaker 2: like reading about this stuff. But you know, the uh,
Speaker 2: it's it should uh it should become clear, you know,
Speaker 2: at least in part why some of these so of
Speaker 2: these peculiarities became you know, not just sort of you know,
Speaker 2: quirkly identified with the Spanish modern state, but somehow inextricably
Speaker 2: bound off with like it's it's it's it's you know,
Speaker 2: and that's and that's about all I got for today. Man. Again,
Speaker 2: I'm still kind of recovering from my from my my
Speaker 2: vacation the Cook County, at the Cook County Resort and hotel.
Speaker 2: But I thought it was important to cover because we're
Speaker 2: gonna come back to a lot of these aspects and
Speaker 2: I didn't want it to be I didn't want them
Speaker 2: to be issues the first impression, you know, as they
Speaker 2: kind of re emerged. But I promise when we record next,
Speaker 2: we'll we'll get into you know, general Franco arriving back
Speaker 2: from Morocco and you know kind of how battle resolved
Speaker 2: between uh, you know, between the Nationalist element and UH
Speaker 2: counter Legion and the Hermacht and and Thomas tanks, you know,
Speaker 2: and the UH and and the Reds and and Republicans
Speaker 2: all in Sundry. Does that sound good?
Speaker 1: Sounds great? Plug away?
Speaker 2: What? Yes, sir, I'm still playing catch up, but I'm
Speaker 2: as I've disclosed the people, you know, the last few weeks,
Speaker 2: me and my my crime partner Rake, where we're We're
Speaker 2: We're trying at a feverish pace to get season two
Speaker 2: of the podcast up and running, and I promise it
Speaker 2: will be in the next few weeks, you know. In
Speaker 2: the meantime, I'm gonna be uploading a lot of free stuff,
Speaker 2: you know, to the sub stack, Like today, I just
Speaker 2: uploaded an interview with a friend of mine, like, you know,
Speaker 2: an older dude who uh who knew Jeff Ford and
Speaker 2: he banged with the l Ruken here in Chicago. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna be I'm gonna when I you know, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: dropping a lot of that kind of stuff until we
Speaker 2: kind of formally relaunched the brand. I've been doing. I've
Speaker 2: been recording a lot with Nico Kloud, who's a fascinating guy,
Speaker 2: an artist and a very controversial figure that's gonna he's
Speaker 2: gonna feature heavily in season two. But you can find
Speaker 2: the substick in the pod at real Thomas seven seven
Speaker 2: seven that substick dot com. Uh. You can find me
Speaker 2: on Twitter, but my tweets are protected. People tell me
Speaker 2: Twitter is not censoring as aggressively as before, but I've
Speaker 2: literally hit my accounts nuke so many times for you know,
Speaker 2: and number once if I.
Speaker 1: I got suspended for twelve hours yesterday and they didn't
Speaker 1: even tell me why.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean if there's just like crazy bullshit,
Speaker 2: even when the commissars aren't, you know, like busily like
Speaker 2: and excited, I mean, it's like it's like it's like
Speaker 2: born to them or something to just like censor people,
Speaker 2: I think, because they're fucking freaks. But a point being
Speaker 2: like I do protect my tweets because I is to
Speaker 2: be the only way to like not be fucking nuke them,
Speaker 2: you know, just arbitrar early. But you can find you
Speaker 2: can always find me in my website. It's just Thomas
Speaker 2: seven seven seven dot com number seven eight twenty seven
Speaker 2: seven seven dot com. That's where all my like fresh
Speaker 2: stuff like appears. It's still like somewhat under construction, but
Speaker 2: you can that will always be around. Okay. And as uh,
Speaker 2: people keep asking about the channel content that is coming
Speaker 2: to I haven't figured out exactly how I want to
Speaker 2: integrate it with the pod. I want some I don't
Speaker 2: want to just be like a mirror of the pod.
Speaker 2: But with video, I mean, if people want sign some
Speaker 2: people like that and they just like listening to stuff,
Speaker 2: I like to see your YouTube, I'll do that, but
Speaker 2: I do want some original video content. I don't want
Speaker 2: primarily that the channel to be that like one thing
Speaker 2: at a time. And I'm uh, I want to I'm yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's but that's the basically where we're at. Okay,
Speaker 2: and just keep uh, just keep your eyes peeled for
Speaker 2: like fresh stuff because I'm gonna be uploading I'm gonna
Speaker 2: be uploading a ton of like just free stuff like
Speaker 2: it today every several days. And when when the season
Speaker 2: two of the pod launches, all season one content is
Speaker 2: going to become free immediately and it will be dope
Speaker 2: like and when I say like rebranding, like we've got
Speaker 2: the resources and and kind of the knowledge as well
Speaker 2: as you know, sort of like the you know, a
Speaker 2: higher profile in terms of people who are willing to
Speaker 2: work with us, you know, like like Nego klout like yourself,
Speaker 2: I'm not seeing you guys are like similar people and
Speaker 2: understand okay, okay, but and uh and and people like
Speaker 2: you know, my friend Big d you know, who drops
Speaker 2: his system when you're honest about the old rouken But uh,
Speaker 2: like we're popping quite splendidly, and and that that that's
Speaker 2: you know a lot for other potentialities. So yeah, I
Speaker 2: won't I won't hold up the recording anymore. Man. That's
Speaker 2: that's all I got. Thank you so much. And thank
Speaker 2: you again for like the trans love and concern for
Speaker 2: me when you know I went dark and accounted being arrested,
Speaker 2: Like I really mean that. I got huge love for
Speaker 2: all of our friends a.
Speaker 1: Man, I appreciate it. Thank you,