Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pegana Show.
How are you doing today, Thomas.
Speaker 2: And well, thanks as always for hosting me on this
fine day. Yeah it's another's day, so good fortune and
long life till the mom's up too.
Speaker 1: Which mine was still around likewise, Yeah, all right, so
this is long awaited. A lot of people have asked
for this. I'm excited about this. Start talking about the
Spanish Civil War. Just start going. I'll interrupt if I
have any questions. Let me let me start off with
an easy one. When was the first time you started
looking at the Spanish Civil War?
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it was pretty early on, because
it's something that was mythologized, rewatch. I remember when I
was like a teenager in college age, you know, like
in my late team's early twenties. There was this great
mythology spun around the communist side, which is euphemistically referred
to as like the Republican side. I mean that it's
like the who was arming and equipping and providing nkvd
UH functionaries to slaughter people behind the lines. It was
the Soviet Union doing that. Okay, you weren't. They weren't
fighting and create like twenty first century Sweden, not that
would be any great shakes either, but you know then
oh and you know, we there were some Russians there too,
so that that didn't make any sense. And the you know,
as I got into before, before consumer internet was a thing,
you know, like I've said, you had to rely basically
on the resources of your local library. And I was
blessed in that regards. I live in Chicago, Land or
stuff like the Institute for Historical Review and uh, the IHR.
They they were always putting out stuff related to condor relegion. Okay,
I mean in part because there's a lot of like
aviation buff old guys like buying your stuff, I assume,
but it's also guys like Mark Weber or whatever I
guess he goes by, you know, and uh, and some
a lot a lot of their kind of best contributors
and editors they were. They were always coming back to
the War in Spain, you know, the Battle in Spain,
how that how that shaped you know, conceptual horizons strategically,
and how it was really you know, kind of the
precursor to everything that followed. And it was uh, you know,
like I said, I I think it was Sleen who
said that, you know, Stalingrad is where left and right
had geliens met to set all their differences. That first
time that happened was in Spain. Okay, even on their
visioness side, though, there's misconceptions, like I I'm going to
get into some of that today. Like David Irving is
kind of even though people view him as this kind
of like art revisionists, in a lot of ways, he's not.
And I mean I think he's he's he's the historian
of the Third Reich, and he's just like a great individual,
but he's he mischaracterizes the political uh situation there uh
relative to the combatants. And I'll get into what I
mean by that, but I mean it was basically, my
interest in the Spanish War was concomitant with you know,
my interest in the Third Reich in the Second World
of War, because I came to realize that these things
were inextricably connected as well as you know, it's like
why there's a number there's a lot of conflicts where
people try to finesse the true nature of the combatants,
you know, owing the ideological prejudices. Like I mean that
that was in my own lifetime. I mean that that
happened in you know, nicaragu when I'll sell it or
that's what like our dear friend Dan, he's an expert
on that. You know, he's been taking the oral histories
of of a nationalist veterans, uh in all Salvador. You know.
That's why I hosted him on the pot and I
hope to again. But you know, so I pretty quickly
realized that it was imperative the kind of deep dive
into into the Spanish War, but also Spain. There's a
lot of a tragic character to Spain, and Spain is
really I mean despite the fact, or maybe because of
the fact, I you know, and I'm not saying it
does not a value loaded statement that you know, the
Vatican is in Rome, like Spain, Spain kind of lived
out in the most kind of sanguinary ways, you know,
like uh, like the Catholic historical experience, you know, whether
it was you know, the centuries along Riconquista against Islam,
which like other Europeans unless you count you know, people
in the Bulk in the in the Balkans like weren't
dealing with that, you know, like and uh, you know,
just the uh the relationship of the the clergy to
the monarchy. But all so I mean again ironically, and
we'll get into this too in a minute. The reason,
Machiavelli you constantly invoked the example of Ferdinand and Isabella,
it is because Spain, despite the fact that they despite
the fact that they remain kind of feudal in like
their sensibilities. You know, even until the the early twentieth century,
Spain was the first truly kind of Westphalian national state,
like before Westphalia, you know, where you had a truly
absolute monarch and the and the borders of Spain were
national borders, you know. It wasn't it wasn't a confederation
of palladies, you know, where there was uh, you know
where there was some lame duck you know, secular prime
minister or chancellor, you know, kind of like holding the
illusion together like it really was like an absolute monarchy
of a national state, you know, and not as like
a puppet of the Vatican or anything like that. So
there's always like weird dichotomies. So it has got interested
in like Spain like on its own terms, because like
I you know, I'm a student of political theory, you know,
when I isn't.
Speaker 1: There isn't there also the in the history of Spain,
after you have the uprisings to kick the Moors out,
Spain falls under much like Russia would later a few
centuries of Jewish influence to the point where Spanish Spanish
are being made slaves are being made slaves of Jewish masters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was definitely that, that was definitely a very
real phenomenon, and that didn't happen in Western Europe. That
happened like Poland was basically a huge like Jewish sleeve colony,
like Ukraine wasn't it might opinion still is today. And
I mean not just knowing metaphoral terms, in real terms,
particularly if you particularly you know, if you count pornography,
which is which is literally white slavery. I mean it's
not a u fromism. That's accurate, which is why that's
what it used to be called. But uh, in Western Europe,
like corrupt as the French uh uh, the Republic was,
you know, as regards you know, being in bed with
uh with the Jewish users and other uh you know,
another another, an other another powerful people who were you know,
operating and hymically to the inimical to the national interest.
It's kind of like out and out the domination you
know of people's you know, like like not just socially
but physically. Yeah, I mean Spain was ground zero for
that kind of thing in a way that was alien
to Western Europe. I evertis Western Europe, but so yeah,
I mean it was it was kind of like this,
It was kind of like this collision of like the
ancient and the very modern and you know, stuff like that.
But to your point, you know about uh about you know,
Spaniards and Jews, that that's going to require like a
dedicated deep dive because it's just like too big for
me to and I don't want to just like shoot
from the hip on it today because if the I
I didn't I didn't like prepare any notes or anything
or just like refreshment recollection. I know a lot about
the topic, but I got to be able to say
dates and things in a linear order, and like I
can't do it on the top of my head. It's
not a robot or a savant. But but yeah, I
mean that's that's important, and that's also you know, I mean, uh,
it's just an ongoing and like the term you know,
moranos or mono, like I don't. Uh, I don't, I don't.
I don't know what the correct pronunciation is. You know,
he's the one, uh the Ferdinand demanded that, you know,
like all all Jews convert and like accept Catholicism, you know,
as the national religion. You know, which again it's you know,
the ironically or perhaps not, you know, Spain became the
first truly like national state. But the point is like
that wasn't just stuff that was That wasn't just Fernan
trying to kind of score points with the clergy or
something like this. This was imperative in Spain in a
way it was not other places, or maybe not. Maybe
imperative is not there word. This was a measure that
had a context in Spain that it did in other places,
even where there was you know, bed blood across ethno
sectarian lines of a way that was any way that
was uh, very pronounced. But I want to do two
things today. I wanted to get just kinda briefly into
you know, sociological features of Spain that relate to you know,
political development that became critical variables in the War of
nineteen thirty six thirty nine. I also want to deal
with some like misconceptions about fascism itself, and about what
the perspectives were of a in Berlin and in Moscow,
and and and how Hitler viewed the situation strategically, and
how Stolid did because this is wildly taken out of
context by every virtually everybody, including some people who are
very studied revisionists and should know better. But you know
that said, I'll uh, let me, let me just let
close out this window. Basically I'm gonna start. It's gonna
seem like I'm jumping around a bit, but I believe
this is the best way to present it, especially because
you know, I'm starting something that's familiar. And also this
is kind of the framing device as you if if
if if that makes sense? When did uh basically Hitler
and the the inner kind of core, the third or
eych you know that being gearing Gebels, you know, Uh Hitler,
they first kind of became uh, they first kind of
became aware of Spain and strategic terms. It was July
twenty fifth, nineteen thirty six. It seems like something out
of a movie, but Hitler was actually attending an opera
I think at UH by Ruth or bay royth like
I I'm sure I'm portraying that pronunciation. But literally, at
the intermission of this opera, it Canarious approaches a Madmial Canaris,
who was, you know, a very conspiratorial individual and a turncoat.
I mean it's been proven, you know, many times over,
but he was. He was chief of the ABVIA, you know,
the foreign intelligence service. And Canarius was strange because in
some ways he seemed to be acting, you know, at
critical moments in the in the interest of the Third Reich.
You know, other times he was you know, working as
UH just as actively the sabotage, it's strategic ambitions, beaven
its survival. But that's a that's a subject to itself.
But Canaras had actually introduced m Yeah Hitler to Franco's
people and UH. Canari's UH. He approached Hitler during the
intermation of this opera, and he brought him an urgent
UH telegram, which was an appeal from UH to a
Franco's emissaries, you know, asking them for immedia, asking the
Third Right for immediate assistance. Specifically, Franco needed to transport
the Moroccan legions were sympathetic, you know, if the nationalist
caused from UH North Africa to the Spanish mainland, you know,
to rapidly reinforce, and Hillar convened daring Arhard Milche Albert Kesselring,
who I made the point, you know, kessel Ring was
finally his final command was, you know, the defense of Italy,
and UH he was never his forces were never defeated,
you know, they the war ended. So I mean, the
the Wehrmacht and the Loofaffa just just went home, you
know it. But kessel Ring at that time was was
the LUFA the chief of staff Milch, who was an
absolutely brilliant guy in all kinds of ways. UH and
in an operational term, see, he was second to none.
But all of and this will become relevant later, all
three of them said, yes, we've got intervened. Now. Hitler
UH authorized a full scale LUFAFA intervention. All the men
hasn't said, We've got to be careful here, you know,
we're very We've got to be very careful about you know,
the signals we send to the Soviet Union, to the UK,
to France. Okay, Ultimately, UH getting deployed a bomber squadron
under U von rich Toffen who along with von Toma,
who commanded the ground element and we'll get into that later.
We're uh they were both you know, top Uh, they
were both top commanders, and there's someone overlooked and people
who like the rank that acts as the generals and
what have you. But Hitler's view was that, you know,
there was a need to test uh, you know, German
combined arms, you know number one, you know, and familiarize
h familiar eyes uh you know, both Aaron ground element
forces with with these new technologies. Secondly, there needed to
be you know, the younger generation wasn't battle tested, you know,
and there was that too. Garring's notion was, uh, Gearing
at that time was still in charge of uh, you know,
the the broad economic planning, you know, in a way
that would later end up uh in the lap of disasters.
He earned you that as well as Earhart and Mills,
you know, kind of in a in a more limited way.
And some would you know be uh you know conferred
upon Albert Spear, you know, it was armaged minister. At
this point. Garing was kinging of like the freer plans. Okay,
Gearing coveted precious metals that Spain had stuff like tungsten
stuff like copper. You know that that uh that he reasoned,
uh could be bartered in direct exchange for military aid
or you know, acquired fire sale prices. Okay a uh No,
by all, a general war was underway in Spain. Okay,
And at this point Milch kessel Ring Gerring said, we've
got to be very careful about escaliefs unless we find
ourselves in a general war with the Soviet Union. Okay.
So this idea that the Soviet Union just you know,
owing to socialism in one country. You know, the Soviets
weren't really involved in Spain. Stalin was in Spain one
hundred percent. He was in it to win it. On
his side, he didn't want to yet provoke a war
with the Third Reich. Okay. See, you've got something of
a Mexican stand off beneath kind of you know, and
an intended subterfuge. Okay. What Stalin meant by socialism in
one country? You've got to understand the way the Russian
Revolution developed, the way that Lenin envisioned the Bolshevik cause,
you know, as a vanguard movement. The basic problem within
kind of communist political theology, or rather the kind of
conceptual view of you know, like the man doesn't make history,
like history awaits you know, history gives man kind of
the clarion call, you know. And you can't force revolutionary
conditions too early. And uh, you know this idea that
you know, one can just build quote build socialism in
a backwards country like Russia, you know, and then you know,
Russia can catch up to the rest of the world,
you know, and then you know, when a general proletarian
revolution starts, you know, sweeping the developed world, well Russia
will be right there. I mean, this, this is this
is not orthodox marcis Leninism. Okay, that's what Stalin was
talking about. He wasn't saying, oh, I'm gonna glad hand
with fascism because I don't want anyone to think I'm
doing anything but looking inward. And you know, I'm not
really a communist and I don't really have designs on
Europe like that. This nonsense. Also at Base Spain was
a political fight, Okay. Politics matters when you're dealing with
a revolutionary fervor that is sweeping not just a key
territory but literally the continent. Later during the Cold War,
arguably the planet, but we're not there yet. The Third
Reich had to go fight in Spain because Spain is
where the Communists drew line. Okay, that was that that
that that was eight hundred percent and vice versa. Like
Stalin this Moscow, the Soviet Union and its entire claimed
the mantle of you know, global leadership of the proletariat.
That that would have totally evaporated. You know, if if
if Stalin had not you know, set the communists whatever
they needed to win, Okay, But at the same time,
abiding the need, you know, to keep up appearances. You know,
it's even more important to keep up appearances as you know,
when when when when you're undermining you know, what you
report to be your own commitment to peace and and
and aversion to escalation. I mean when it Boss tweets,
the appearance of the law is fundamental, like especially when
it's being broken. I mean it's this shouldn't come as
a this shouldn't seem like outlandish anybody, Okay, But that's
that's that's uh, you know that that's there's there's so
much dishonesty around the issue. That's why I emphasize that
a lot of people point to Hitler made a statement,
and I think you can find this in table talk,
but I found citations and Irving. I found a citation
and Irving's The war Path also in uh after in
early in November December thirty seven, it's about a year
Onward Hitler. Uh. Hitler had told Ribbon Trops chief of
staff or his secretary that, uh, you know, like something
that something effected, like an outright victory of Franco. You know,
we actually might live to regret that because the guy
is such a bastard, you know, ha ha. But he
also said, you know, our interest is first and foremost
is preventing a Communist victory, but also to maintaining maintaining
existing tensions in the Mediterranean. You know, if uh, if
the UK was being uh you know, it's weighed and
out of the medicine, you know, uh. But also like
you know, the Spanish, you know, essentially preventing like neutralizing
the strategic benefit of the Strait of Gibraltar to the UK.
There that that give Germany tremendous power, you know, not
just in terms of the fact that well you know,
the real name the Royal Navy would then you know,
be at war in a in a te theater, but
it would give Berlin, you know, bargaining power with respect
to London. And at that point, obviously, you know, Hillar
didn't view the UK as an enemy, you know. So
the fact that Hillar would lament the fact that Franco
is a bastard, he's a terrible ally, he's impossible to
work with, you know, the fact that he would say,
in a perfect world, you know, there'd be a guy
who was more malleable, you know, in Madrid or fighting
to take Madrid. But also you know, in a perfect world,
you know, we'd be able to kind of keep keep
keep the Royal Navy forever tied down, you know, by
some kind of friendly regime on the Iberian Peninsula. Like
that's not that doesn't that doesn't amount to some statement,
like some literal statement of you know, gee, we made
a mistake to back Franco. I mean, it's people have
a real problem with literalist thinking in these days, but
that they had aside, it's one of the things that arguably,
when I say arguably, I don't mean, uh, I don't
mean in my perspective, but you know, again, people who
view the war in Spain is just kind of this
like isolated occurrence where you know, the communists support for
a you know, for the for the Republicans as they're called,
was was just some kind of token, perfunctory gesture or
that you know, the Third Reich wasn't really committed to it,
you know, other than you know, for the very limited
purpose of uh of of you know, cutting the combat
teeth at Vermont. There really was a cross border momentum
developing behind parties of the right. Okay, no, there was
not a fascist International, but that would have been self
defeating and all. So that's not got of the the
claimed legitimacy that these rightist movements had didn't entail you know,
some uh, some kind of bureaucratic party apparatus, you know,
with an armed element, you know, that had some kind
of like you know, abstract theory of history that sort
of rationalized you know, uh, its existence. I mean, his
entire claim was, you know, something primordial, perennial and based
in you know, the uh, the mysteries of cultural and
racial origins. Okay, to anyone who thinks that there was
not you know, a zeitgeist that was facilitating the war
in Spain. On both sides, the funeral of two men
who died on the same day and whose funerals were
held in kind in January. The team nineteen thirty seven
to Romanian Nationals the name of Vassil or Vassil, Vassili
Marine and Iron Mota. Ion Mota was Coachoriano's number two
in the Iron Guard. They'd they traveled to Spain, initially
with an Iron Guard delegation to present a Toledo sword
to one of the Franco's generals. They ended up joining UH,
the Nationalist side, and they were killed in action, and
this became a rallying cry across Europe. It UH. These
guys were reviewed as holy warriors in a in a
Christian jahad against communism, you know, against UH, against against
Jewish aggression and all the iterations. Yeah, against atheism, you know,
all these things. That their bodies were interred or were
on their way to interment. We're put in a mortuary train.
It left Spain, it traveled through France and Belgium and
reached Berlin in February. And everywhere they stopped they were
met by you know, s s and s amen and
national As Soldist party officials delgates to the Spanish falange. Uh,
you know, guys formal representatives of the Fascist Party in
Italy obviously, you know, a huge iron guard contingent, you know,
men from the action in France. Ay, this funeral train
literally did an entire tour of Europe and uh was
greeted by throngs of onlookers giving it the Romans loot. Okay,
So I can think of nothing comparable in in in
in the communist world before or after nineteen forty five.
You know, I can think of thing. I can think
of people who the Communists tried to glom onto, like
Bobby Sands, which was very misguided because Sands certainly wasn't
one of them. There are people like from the popular
frent Liberation of Palestine, you know, years after the fact,
they show up, uh, you know wearing uh, wearing Shay
Rivera badges and stuff. Before it became like an idiot
hipster thing in like the two thousands, it was. Uh,
It's ironic because of like the the PFLP General Command
and people like that. Would you know what would employ
his visage. But there's nothing comparable. You know, this, This
really was like a holy war of the right against
you know, against what they perceived this jewelry against communism,
you know, against against uh you know again against godless capital.
That was uh, you know, that was that was that
was supporting both those elements, you know, and that's why
these fools who you know from the UK and and
from the USA, like you know, I was, you know,
there were people say like they were fighting, you know,
for for freedom against tyranny. It's like, no, you were fighting.
You were fighting alongside the Soviet Union and you're fighting
as a Soviet Union as most brutal zenith, you know
what I mean, So you can't it's not your alibi,
I think most important of ignorance, but it's you know,
it has got to be said. And on the other
side of it, I know, we got into this quite
a bit. We were doing our Second World War series,
but it uh as the UH, the the dictates that
Stalin was uh issuing to the General Staff of the
Red Army and the directives he was handing to the
to the main what's called the Main Administration, main administration
for political propaganda in the Soviet Army. You know, we
got into some of these things, but they these all
you know, on the eve of of war in May
nineteen forty one, they were incessantly referencing the Spanish War,
and you know, the UH like a literal quote from
U from Army Commissar first rank Zaporos. That's I can't
pronounce these like Georgian and Moldovan and Russian names, but
his uh, he quoted uh Stalin is saying, literally, the
situation is developing. Due to the situation is developing, we
are compelled, in duty bound to take the initiative and
dealing the first blow, beginning the war of attack with
the objective of expanding the borders of socialism. You know.
Quote the leader made it unmistakably clear that war is
inevitable in the future. We must be prepared to the
complete smashing of German fascism. I mean this, this goes
on and on and on, you know. Like I said,
we we got into this in depth before in our
you know, earlier series. But it's and I'm sure some
people will say that, like I rely too much at
direct testimony and things, But if you're talking about intent,
and you're trying to you're trying to piece together intent,
particularly of at scale, you know, you're talking about you know,
command authorities, in a state that ended up at war,
you know, months or years subsequent to the statement. You've
got to take those things basically at face value, you know,
because number one, like who who what audience would they
be speaking for? You know, these these these are the
notes that were found later in some cases after the
you know, decades later, at the opening of the Soviet archives,
you know, and it's you're you're talking like like mer
Smmer said, you know, if you're a general preparing for war,
particularly in a system like the Soviet Union, where you know,
there was a kind of totalitarian accountability where and and
and and at that at the level of these these
apparatrics in generals, they were constantly under surveillance and and
misspeaking could cost you your life, you know, Like I
there's a basic honesty to that that you can rely
on in kind of absolute terms, you know, I mean,
what they say might be clouded by ideology, it might
be misguided, but the idea that what amounts to these
uh eyes only statements from Stalin, you know, to his
political commissars, within the general, within the within within the
what amounts the general staff of the Red Army that oh,
they were just saying these things to give an appearance
of preparateness and and keep the Germans on their toes,
Like how how would the Germans even know of that?
You know, like it's I mean, I realize them preaching
to the choir here, but that's that's important. And you know,
the before UH, before ninety thirty nine, the last general
deployment of UH of Soviet forces was was in Spain.
And granted, like they didn't have an infantry element there.
They had the end k v D on the ground,
but they had you know, but they were there in
substantial numbers number one. And also, I mean Soviet weapons
were all over the battle theater, you know, So when
they're referencing, when they're making when stalin is is is
issuing edicts, you know about you know, the future war,
which obviously he's talking about the Third Reich, you know,
and when he's justscussing, when he's discussing tactical matters, identifying
what he's used as like strong points and weak points,
he's talking about the experience of Spain. Okay, I mean
this that that can't be denied. Now back to Spain
at long last, the war in Spain happened in Spain.
Uh not accidentally, you know, and not uh, it's not uh,
it's not a case of you know, revolutionary conditions owing
to owing to some kind of you know, punctuating prices
or ongoing emergency on the ground, you know, just kind
of made it right for for radicalization. Spain didn't develop normally, okay,
like we were talking before we went live, you know, uh,
for centuries, uh, Spain was uh what was what was
was occupied, like large areas of territory were were occupied
by Mazlem elements. When that was finally defeated, the you know,
I mean basically the uh the the intermittent war against
against the the the Islamic Moors really began, I mean
it was it was Viscoth warlords who began, you know,
the reconquista in uh in like the seven hundreds, you know,
and it like the territorial the territorial control of the
Spaniards or the Moors, you know, like varied, depending uh
on who had the upper hand in battlefield terms, as
well as you know, who was forced to make political
concessions at any given moment. But it can be viewed
basically as you know, a centuries long process to liberate
Spain from you know, from uh, from Heathen occupation, and
it was finally realized by Ferdinand and Isabella in fourteen
ninety two, which is a banner year. You know, it's
Ferdinand and Isabella. Like we talked about a moment ago,
I believe before Winna Lie. The irony is that Ferdinand.
The reason why he was praised so effusively by Machiavelli
and the Prince is that Ferdinand was in many ways
like the first the first absolute monarch of a of
a truly national state like Spain became a national state,
you know, despite it's uh, even at that point, despite
its backwardness. Okay, Now, Ferdinand had a remarkable mandate, and
so would have subsequent monarchs had they, you know, had
they been able to retain the coalition they get around him.
But the uh that those successes, you know, were bought
at a certain price. And if you're fighting in the
centuries long Holy War against dar al Islam, the only
way you can facilitate that is by giving the army
basically unlimited access to the national coffers, and you got
to insinuate the church into political affairs that otherwise would
not be appropriate or constructive, and both of those things happened.
I'm not saying bad things about the Roman Church at all.
I'm saying this is reality. Okay. So the kind of
prototype of U of state power in Spain was an
absolute monarchy before it really happened anywhere else, sustained by
a warrior aristocracy that it was beholden to, uh, a
clergy that you know, had incredible power. You know. The
thing is, though, like all this costs a tremendous amount
of money, you know, and the solution during the Ricontista,
particular in the later phases, it's like you gotta feed
your army, like, okay, well, you know, we're gonna seize
common land, you know, and uh, and we're gonna we're
gonna you know, we're gonna put animals out the pasture there,
you know, if we need like wool or you know,
leather or anything else. You know, that's that's just what
we're gonna do. You know. So it was kind of
the it was kind of the fifteenth century equivalent of
like imminent domain, you know, like being silly sounds like,
but I'm not.
Speaker 1: And a lot of that land was not being used, Yeah,
a lot of that land was not being used at all.
Speaker 2: So no, but that and a lot of and a
lot of these guys were happy to I mean they
they wanted to purge Heathens from Spain, you know, for
a lot more happy to allow access to it or
to give it literally the crown. But the point is
if you're if you're using it, you know, for commodities
to feed and outfit the army, or you're using it,
you know for this, like for this merino wool that's
coveted you know, all through Europe so you can raise money,
you know, so that you can put gold in the
coffers of uh, you know, the sex and weapons developers
that you need, you know, to fight the moors. Like
nobody's nobody's using that land, you know, to to to
build up uh, you know, to build up the Agraean economy,
you know, and develop it and refine it and god willing,
you know, create some career they generate on surplus X
sport you know, like none of that is happening, you know,
and it as uh as time went on, it created
kind of a warfare state paradigm, you know, not in
like a corrupt sense. Like now, what I mean is
that you had this, you had this warrior aristocracy, which
is like interstitially kind of bound up with the clergy
who both relied on each other, you know, like not
just for the sake of you know, the the optics
of authority or something. You know, like if you're gonna
if they were, if you're gonna wage a holy war,
you better believe that, you know, the Roman Church better
is going to war with you, you know, like on
your side, and like their function is as important as
you know, the men who wield the blade. I mean
that this should be obvious, but we're not used to
thinking that. We're not used to talking about Europeans fighting
holy wars like in Europe. But you know, if you're
gonna expect, if you're gonna expect peasants like give up
land and give up like, you know, give up the
certain security they have, you know, from that kind of tendency,
and you're gonna expect like freeholders, you know, to give
up what they own, you know, so that you know,
these uh martial efforts, necessaries they may be, can can
continue your luck with the situation where like nobles established
a kind of becomes the order of the day. Okay,
in a way it's not in in other societies, at
least in Europe, like it becomes it takes on an
outsized importance, is what I'm getting at, Okay, And that's
exactly what happened, and that endured, you know, perpetually, like
after after the Europeans like one Spain meck, you know,
for for christiandom it uh be for me the point too.
And Bebo's book is great because it's larded with facts
and he makes some great points. He's got some conceptual prejudices,
and but I rely on him a lot. He made
the point that in the Middle Ages, from the Middle
Ages until the end of the UH until the end
of the eighteenth century, Spain lost something like half its population.
You know. Some of that was just kind of like
you know, the kind of uh yeah, you know, oh,
changing patterns of fecunity and things. But part was because
like Spain literally had to downsize because like it couldn't fee,
it couldn't sustain the population that yone's had, you know,
and you've got uh an empire that's rapidly growing, but
its ability to feed its people is uh deterior reading
I mean, at its height, the Spanish empire literally owned
half the planet. Like people forget that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean even Spangler Spangler and like Pressianism
and socialism is all about mid fifteen, sixteen hundred and
seventeen hundred Spain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. So again
it was, uh, it was, it was highly unusual. I mean,
I don't know if despite what people say, there's not
there's not some there's not some template for empires developed,
you know, Uh, I mean I realize it's mostly just
like basic ass people saying like oh, history repeat itself.
I mean, even even people are more sophisticated than that
don't need to realize there's not there's not some like
template or something. It's kind of like natural you know,
developmental cycle. Other than other than I mean everything everything,
everything dies at some point or comes to an end.
That's not what I mean. I mean, I mean the
concrete particulars you know of of how an empire requires
its fortunes, you know, maintains it's a geminy and then ultimately,
you know, loses its ability to to compete with its
uh I don't compete with its enemy's order or to
sustain its its own existence at scale. But this kind
of warrior holy warrior ethos developed in Spain. But it
was it's uh, it admits it. It came to exists
among like a real kind of perennial destabilization. You know.
It's Isabella like one of her one of her final
kind of acts of state, like late in life. Dasis Narrows,
who is uh this kind of legend. I mean you
probably know this because I mean you're a kidlic guy
and like a Latin dude. I don't know anything about
since Narrows until like very recently. But he was he
was like this kind of he was. He was he
was like this pious friar. You know, he's kind of
the guy who's credited. It was sort of a structuring
of the Inquisition as it came to as it came
to exist. And that's another thing that's grossing misunderstood by
people kind of on both sides of the the political spectrum.
We'll get into that too, but the uh, the uh.
On the one hand, you had you had this kind
of tendency towards revolt that was burgening in Spain, especially
in some of these territories that you know had long
been you know, like discreete principalities, you know, with with
kind of unique cultural habits and and and political cultures.
So there the ground, the proverbial soil was kind of, uh,
it was kind of eager for for rebellion against central
authority anyway. But at that time too, like the papacy
in Rome was was viewed as highly corrupt, which it was,
and so a lot of these like friars who actually
were like, you know, radically pious, they they found themselves
at odds with the papacy, who in turn, you know,
called upon on you know, the the Castilian monarchy in Spain,
they kind of restore the status quo. But the but
the monarchy had to tread lately because a lot of
these priests were kind of like more like literally more
Catholic than the pope, you know, and the Castilion monarchs
entire kind of their entire mandate to that kind of extraordinary,
extraordinarily deep authority basically owed to their ability to you know,
maintain like the confidence and and the absolute endorsement of uh,
of the Catholic charity. You know. So it was it
was central wasn't against regionalism. It was you know that
that that weakened the structure that Ford and created. It
was the odd dynamics at play between uh, the papacy
and and you know, the cardinals in Spain itself and
else where. It was there was a rising uh. There
there was a there was a there was a rising
uh against Charles the Fifth, who was Isabella's grandson. That
was uh, that was uh, you know, provoked by like
was viewed as like his his his abuse of of
of public moneys and things. You know, it's just like
typical sort of uh discontent you know with uh, I
mean with with with rulers didn't well handle the forcenes
of the country, like material and otherwise, but it took
on it, It took on and outside and often like
literally theological meaning like owing to you know, some of
the some of the uh sociological tendencies at play. A
lot of the country had been assimilated into the in
the in the Castilian rule through like marriage, you know,
so you had you had a Spanish halfspur line. You
know that like found itself at odds with with or
with with a lot of the peasantry, you know, owing
to complicated reasons of bloodline and things that like wouldn't
mean anything to an American, but had deep, deep significance
to to uh, you know, the people in that time
and place and pre even the days people like where
they as meeting them. I'm not saying that derisively, but
and there was times when you had an officer court
who uh was sympathetic to you know, these kinds that
like nascent middle class uprisings, you know in like eighteen
thirteen and eighteen forty eight. You know, ultimately the pendulum
swung the other way, you know, and which is where
it kind of remained into the twentieth century. And if
you'll notice that parallel between this kind of situation in
Spain and the kind of situation you had in uh Chile,
you know uh with uh with Pinochet and the officers
contra like civil society, like you'd be right, like there's
something there's something to how uh you know, Latin America
like mirror Spain in the way that you know the
UK like mirrors the United States in terms of political
sociology and zeitgeist and other things. I find that fascinating.
But it the uh, the uh like all these things
like Spain was basically it was uh everything that the
communists claimed about uh, you know, capitalists, like what they
viewed is like you know, late capitalist failure was found
in Spain, you know, and in their in their mind
or in their propaganda. But I mean think I think
they also believed it. You know, they said that, like,
you know, the only reason why the only reason why
the church retained, the Roman Church retains power in Spain
is because, like the last the final recourse of the
capitalists is the is to draw upon, you know, reactionary
tendencies you know, within uh, with within the body politic,
you know, who are vulnerable as such appeals, you knowing
to this going to the punctuated disruption of their lives.
You know. So it was like it was, I mean,
I think, you know, I'm as saying like war arrives
like the seasons, and there was matters of zeitgeist that
you know, made Spain kind of the battlespace as as
it happened. But there was also in more kind of
and more and more kind of abstract terms, like abstract
intellectual terms. It was like Spain was there was gonna
be there was gonna be a bullshitic uprising in Spain,
you know, and uh and and the the Soviet Union
was gonna be was gonna be insinuated into that process
as much as it could be without provoking a general
war with you know, the Third Reich or something by
proxy the UH. Ironically, though, and again, you know, into
the twentieth century, Spain remained economically backwards. There was a
basic hostility to commercial activity. Like it's like the Code
of Hidalgo or whatever. It really it really didn't a
certain it really didn't despise you know, money, you know,
like it went beyond you know, content for usury and things.
There were there's something not just unbecoming a nobleman or
any or any man who's you know, an upright Christian
of good race and breeding, you know, taking any interest
in in money not derived you know from uh, from
an estate or something. And it wasn't they they couldn't
transition that into productive capital, you know, like say Prussia did.
You know, So they're not despite what you know, despite
what liberals claim, like their Marxist counterparts, you know, it's not.
Capitalism isn't like this fundamentally like actually or axiomatically like
liberalizing tendency. You know, like Prussia was arguably the most
reactionary state that existed in the modern era, and they
were remarkably capitalists. I mean they were they were abiding
you know, the they were abiding the the economic victims
of people Frederick List. You know obviously, you know, they
had the correct paradigm of you know, commercial interest being
subjugated to the national interests at all times. This idea
that like well, you know, if you have you know,
if you have like a basically kind of like you know,
martial cast or if you have you know, a basically
reactionary conservative elite, you know that they it's it's it's
literally impossible for them to uh, you know, transition a
medieval economy into a modern market, modern value added economy
with you know, where where revenues are reinvested in a
productive capital like this bullshit, because I that's that like
that is literally a story of Germany and especially Prussia. Okay,
but a it uh, there was a certain rigidity to
things in Spain that that that just did not or
could not happen, and it was exacerbated you know, like
I said, the the the quote era of reform, you know,
like the mid eighteenth century. I guess until like the
Napoleonic the final Napoleonic UH defeat in eighteen thirteen, there
was there was a you know, you had you had
a nascent middle class or at least a wealthier uh,
you know, kind of a freehold class, you know, who
were attracted to the ideas of uh, of of these
Enlightenment propagandas at least superficially that put uh, that put
that put pressure on Charles the Third to issue reforms,
which in turn reduced the Church's influence over the army,
where a lot of officers were being you know, bought
off by these reforms. And incidentally a lot of those
officers had taken to Freemasonry. And that in large part
is where you get the idea or the claim that like,
you know, well, Masonry is this revolution from the middle
kind of degenerate tendency that like hates Catholicism. I'm not
saying that that's correct or not. I'm just saying that's
where it comes from. Okay, So don't I don't have
people sending me hate email or something. But that in
turn caused you know, like people who were you know,
sympathetic to the ancient regime or who were committed to
the kind of cast structure, and you know the uh,
the kind of paradigm of a you know, an officer
corps that works handing love with the army, both of
whom are you know, beholden to an absolute monarch who
uh in turn abides you know, their traditional privileges and benefits,
like socially materially. So this is just like a This
is just like a literally like a perfect storm of
like dysfunctional tendencies. You know. It's and that's that's why
when things jumped off in Spain, you know, finally in
uh in nineteen thirty six, I mean, there was such
there was such hostility, and that's all you know, I
mean just I mean reciprocally, but it was also the
it's easy to understand why even guys who weren't you know,
diehard national socialists or like iron guard parisans, It's easy
to see why people looked at it like, look, this
is the communists are like, they're making an example here,
you know, the the body everything they hate. They want
to they want to annihilate Spain and the Spanish as
a people, as a culture form. They want to annihilate
the church in capacity to exist in the modern world,
and and and then they were right, Okay. I mean
that's why it became so critically symbolic. I would seem
like I was jumping around a lot, and there was
a lot of like, I hope it's useless backstory and lore,
but I that's the way it came off. I'm sorry.
I think you'll thank me as we get into this
because I refer to things that. Okay, now, but we.
Speaker 1: Need that backstory because most people don't know the history
of Spain. They yeah, they I assume they just think
it is just another feudal country, country that went through feudalism,
just like everyone else. And they don't realize the battles
that actually battles that you would see coming in the
future actually happened there.
Speaker 2: No one hundred percent. And I also like, as we
go on, uh, there's just like too much to like
fully cover here, Like you mentioned when we when we
talked the other day, Like I'll get into why the
Carlists were like fighting on the national side or the
patriotic side. I'll get into other stuff, you know, like
why like the Spanish ar Modus defeat, you know, like
tanked everything. But we're gonna wait till we're like in
that context and primarily though, I want to focus on
you know, the third or I get war on Spain
and like, you know, how the military situation developed. So
I promise we'll dive into that very next episode.
Speaker 1: All right, do some plugs and Lendon, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: Man. You can find me on Twitter for the time
being at Real Capital r E A L Underscore number
seven h M A S seven seven seven. You find
me a substick that's our primary home, No real Thomas
seven seven seven Subsey dot com. I think in good
progress towards the channel. I promise things are getting done,
even if it doesn't seem like it. I've been trying
to work my ass off money out of content, So
I've been trying to get people a lot of content.
I'm not being a murder like, oh I'm so great,
but uh keep that in mind if it seems like
I'm being idol or a nerd rather but uh I,
uh I've gotten more confidence like in shooting video. Uh
it just comes out of editing it and making it,
you know, content worthy, and uh I I basically just
got to decide on a format for you know, like
my kind of like for for for Thomas TV, which
I think is gonna be something like a video blog,
but like I are are are are a video pod,
but like I want to have like guests like sitting
there with me, and like some people like down for that.
Some people are like horrified to that prospect, but I
think it'll be pretty lit man. But my point is,
like I'm working on all of these things, and I
really really appreciate everybody who gives me a platform, especially
not not just Pee who's my dear friend, but like
other people who just reach out.
Speaker 1: So thank you very much, Thomas, I appreciate it. Until
episode two.
Speaker 2: Yes, sure, thank you.
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show.
We are here for part two on the Spanish Civil
War with Thomas seven seven seven. How are you doing, Thomas.
Speaker 2: I'm very well, thank you, but I wanted to talk
about some today. This is going to be a recurring
theme conceptually throughout the series. There's a military dimension to
the Spanish War that's important and was impactful in just
positive ways. There's a political aspect and kind of very
concrete terms, especially relating to the Neutrality Act that had
really kind of bound with the ability of the new
dealers to act how they wanted in global terms. Frankly,
then we got into that, and our Second World War
series somewhat or a turn to that too in a
dedicated capacity when it seems appropriate. But I'm sure that
there's gonna be some people who say that this is
over in my own conceptual prejudices, and I kind of
hay Gaelian orientation and my tendency towards German storicism. But
the the animating catalyst for the Spanish War was was Zeitgeist.
You know, we got we got into that in the
first episode. You know, I made the point that despite
the a lot of historians make a point of the
conspicuous absence of a fascist international, you know, contra a
communist international, some of that's a Cold War hangover, when
you know, you'd have you'd have progress, you know stuff.
I don't like progressive historians, you know, with having to
present the issue as well, see that, you know, this
this was just you know, these are just capitalist states
and crisis, and they they were they were just scrambling
to sort of confabulate some iteration of what appeared to be,
you know, a revolutionary tendency in its own right. You know,
to sort of rob the momentum of the left. You know,
that doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny anyway, But
the fact that there was this kind of outpouring of
support for the nationalist cause, you know, which really was
the cabolic cause. You know, we'll get into that a
little bit here today. I mean, you know, and like
I said, I I make a lot I guess of
prime symbolic events, you know, I mean, prime symbols dominate
in human psychology, you know, especially at scale, you know, sociologically.
You know that that's that's why iconic events, you know,
defined civic memory. But also you know, that's why political
symbols are so important, you know, particularly when there's there's
mobilization catalysts, you know, like during the Inner Warriors. But
you know, we talked about the we talked about the funeral,
the funerals of the few, the common funeral of Ion
Mota and that's the old Marine, you know, and how
you know, delegates from pretty much every European state that
had any kind of active right wing movement or anti
communist movement, you know, they turned out to literally salute,
you know, the the funerary train. You know when they
were greeted, uh, everywhere they went by these cadres, and
that's not something that's not something that could just be
you know, cobbled together for for photo opportunities. You know,
it was very authentic. And just the fact that there
were Medians on the ground in the first place, you know,
and then they're they're being greeted and saluted by you know,
uh shoot Staffelman, you know, and you had Italian priests
you know, like like like blessing them and things. And
then and then there's even like secular like French fascists
like action france as types like saluting them, you know,
who had obviously like no, no, no truck with reactionary
Catholicism as it was perceived, you know, on his own terms.
But that's most important in America too, because really some historians,
including Anthony Beevor, who I I think he's overall a
very good historian, articularly I mean he's not a revisionist
really at all, as far as court historians go. I
think he's probably the best, you know, on the subject
of the Second World War in the interwar years. But
he you know, he uh, he's got he's got a
tendency to kind of hit the mark but not really
understand the sort of depth of significance of some of
these prime symbolic events. And he hits the mark. What
he talks about the Spanish War being you know, a
precursor to the Second World War. I mean, he perceives
even a guy like him who rejects, you know, the
kind of historicism of a guy like Novelty and and
you know, uh as well as you know the the
the contrasy storicism of people like Osbam, But he doesn't
identify you know, like a common uh nucleus of approximate
causation there. But it it was deeper than just you
know what kind of a kind of opening act of
hostilities relating to you know, extent you know, geostrategic ambitions
and and and intentions. Know it really it really was
apocal and and ideological and a matter of zeitgeist as
the why as the why why what animated Germany to
intervene in Spain? Why the Soviets staked it the way
they did, you know why you know, i uh, progressives
in America and the UK, you know, who identify themselves
as you know, on the side of the COO democracy movement,
which which is incredibly misguided and deliberately it was a
deliberate lie. And we're going to get into that. So
that that's a question that at Bar is kind of
like why Spain, Well, well, we think of, like speaking
of civic myths, so can we think of we think
of the kind of prime symbols The left likes to
trot out as like the horrors of you know that
which came before one of the big ones is the
Inquisition or the Crusades. They can't really, they can't really
expand upon what they mean by that, you know, like
what inquisition, because there was three. There's the Portuguese Inquisition,
there was the Italian, and there was the Spains. The
Spanish Inquisition was the most politically significant. I'd say it
was initiated by Isabella in fourteen seventy eight. You know,
when we talked about ferd in Isabella like the irony
of a of a of them like preceding the Westphalian state,
you know by a century and a half. But but
but Catholic Spain, like like like Ferdinand really did make
Spain and national Catholic state sight unseen, you know in
a in a way that is at odds with with
Spain's kind of stagnant and traditionalist culture. I don't mean
that punitively. That's just a fact. But the Spanish Inquisition
endured for three hundred years. It's agreed upon now by everybody, Okay,
by court, his story and revisionists or whatever. I could
pull out citations, but I don't think it's an a assaria.
If somebody really wants them now or on any topic
we cover, I can provide them, but contact me directly.
I'm not being autistic or something like. People do that
to me, They're like, that's a bullshit, figure, where's your source? Well,
I can source everything, but I'm not going to sit
here and relay, you know, citations like a shithead. But
between three thousand and six thousand people in three hundred
years of the inquisitions Spanish Inquisition were put to death, okay,
based on convictions. That's about two point seven percent of
all cases. Okay. In one year, nineteen thirty six, the
communists and their socialist allies in Spain slaughtered about six
thousand priests and nuns, you know, just outright, they just
massacred them. Okay. So within the first year of a
three year conflict, more clergy people were categorically slaughtered by
the Communists and their democratic allies. Then the total number
of people put to death by the Inquisition or three
centuries the Inquisition is what you're like taught, is this
like event of abject horror in the strog of record.
Like I'm not cadaic, so I don't I don't have
some like direk dog in that fight other than the
fact that this kind of thing is discussing to anybody
who's a don't normal, But that really jumped out at me, Like,
as I said that, deep diving into Cali history, I'm
findingly like twenty five years ago, No, okay, not because
like I believe that, like you know, the Inquisition was,
you know, this kind of horror show or this kind
of singular instance of brutality that's just unparalleled by anything comparable.
I mean, I knew that court history was histriotic, I
knew that they lied, but it's remarkable, like contra the
violence that was instigated against you know, the CADLT clergy itself,
you know within really it wasnt until a few years
ago living memory, you know, the if you if you
want to if you want to vilify the Roman Church,
there's a lot of ways you can do it without
opening yourself up to that kind of criticism. Okay, but
I that's another example of some something like that particular myth.
I was making the point that a bunch of people
lament you know, the information age and the kind of
corrupting influence of you know, this kind of like totally
immersion like in screens. You know it there, it's more
it's more of a liberation mechanism than it is you know,
like one of then then then it's like a check
called the psychic slavery. And there's just like one example, okay,
like forty years ago you could band you better. The
end position was the most horrible thing ever. And thank
god that you know, the Democrats in nineteen thirty six,
you know, stopped it from from oppressing women and slaughtering
people and you know, like crucifying gay people. It's sitting
on fire, like you get away with that, Okay, even
people wh knew it wasn't true, they couldn't just like
rebut you like with in seconds like from the phone
in their pocket. Okay. And I was making the point
that you know, we're not. We're not running an evangelical church,
we're not missionaries. So I mean I I don't go
out in the world and say to people like, see,
like this is what you've been lied too. Look at
the figures on my phone for the imposition, but for
the people who are you know, interested in real history,
you know, for the people who are charged for political
or patriotic reasons, or just because like it feels like
a calling me and like corny that sounds like I
feel like being a revisionist is like my calling. That's
like what God wants me to do. It. Uh, you
don't feel so much like you're brushing up against the
Leviathan and trying to correct these lies of history. And
it's also even if you think yourself basic immune to zeitgeist,
you're not okay. You're gonna internalize features of it, even
if you're doing so in oppositional terms, because it's like
the weather, you know, like Al's coming back, you know,
like in Natural Born Killers, that might seem like a
corny thing to site in a serious discussion, but it's
actually a pretty profound film. I think owing in large
part of the screenplay, there's this one part where I'm
you know what he harrelse and he's like he's modeled
on stark Weather. You know. He says to the guy
he's supposed to be like Heraldo, who's played by Robert
Downey Junior. He's like, you know, he's like, media is
like weather, but it's man made weather, you know. And
and that's true, you know, And the degree to which
there was only the degree that there's a bully pulpit
for historical claims and narrative, you know, the kind of
brief window an absolute turns brief. I mean between when
visual media you know, from the movie house and then
you know, to the TV screen and then like the
ubiquity of you know, the the cable media cycle that
was edged out by Internet very rapidly after it reached
the zenith. But there was a brief period of dizenith,
you know, in the eighties into like the mid nineties,
where we was just absolute okay, like it it was
it could not be fucked with. It was like like
you were like, if you were a visionist, you were
a proverbial ninety pound weekling, and media was Mike Tyson
in nineteen eighty eight. Okay, like it there's just nothing
you could do to it, okay, and even uh, even
the climate was such that even even the people who
are otherwise receptive you just come off like a crank okay,
because you know, literally like the conceptual weather system you know,
don't invoke the metaphor again, was completely at odds with
what you were declaring, okay, and that the degree to
which you know, Internet changed everything and cannot be overstated.
And that's why that's why Twitter went early berzerk, you know,
like a few years back, and that's why Meg now,
like you run an Internet. I just went in an
our center that searched for polio, like not even because
I was in a discussion with a guy who does
a lot of research on AIDS and on like idiolog
itsiological like sources of disease. So I don't know, like
learn about polio. I didn't type in like is polio
fake or something. My first result is that there is
a conspiracy theory that polio was created by the government
or it's like I didn't ask that, you know, It's like,
so they're showing their hand, like I could probably I
could probably want to search like naval oranges or for
like puppy dogs, and it would be like, you know,
the Nazis massic puppy dogs because they were the most
evil people ever or something like I should you not
it's like that extreme. But the point is like it's
not they're they're not even they're they're not even willing
to you know, just kind of like deploy like lesions
of uh of like disinfo people to like you know, Twitter,
like or do Instagram. And it's interesting and so many
people doing like screen capture to like get like concepts out,
you know. And then I'm interested in how they're how
they're gonna They're already shutting stuff down into auspices of
you know, that's inappropriate for children or something. But it's
that I don't want to go too far on the topic.
But in the event, okay, so why is Spain and
why did the Communists attack the clergy like this? I mean,
like we know why, like in terms of you know
why they hated the church and we know why you know,
bullsheit at cadres if you like clergy people as standard
bearers of of a counter revolutionary tendency of tremendous power,
but just hand over fists like slaughtering clergy people. It
seems like it's bad optics. Okay, now, for a long time,
what the what the elk? What the alibi was of
the left in Spain. It was a strange transition period
after Franco died. Franco was elderly, but he died somewhat
abruptly and as you might have imagined the especially in
those days, you know, in nineteen seventy five, there was
not a lot of news coming out of Madrid about,
you know, the the kind of health of Franco, but
also too like people like like ahead of state. Now
he's got he's got like doctors, like a bosass figured
of being literally like all the time, you know, like
in those days, it was not like people even if
you know, it was not clear, like what the state
of somebody's health was always isn't There wasn't this uh,
there wasn't this kind of a there There wasn't this
kind of ongoing like revolutionary shift like there wasn't Portugal,
you know, like uh like sales Ar among other things,
averted a buddy civil war, I mean, as a topic
for another pod or series entirely. But Franco dies suddenly,
it becomes clear that people aren't gonna accept you know,
like uh, you know, the the reinstitution of just a
constitucial monarchy. It becomes clear that like even if Franco
had a successor, he wasn't gonna be up that either.
Spain's now like been in NATO for many years, you know,
it was, it's been, it's been integrated, poor man in
Europe as it may be. It's it had been integrated
you know for decades into the ec it uh. But
there were there was like in terms like the ideological culture,
there was problems, you know, especially because you know, not
just going to the Cold War, but it's you know,
it's they weren't gonna I if they tried to pull
like what South Africa did, you know, the Truth Reconciliation
Committee or something like that, that things would have deteriorated,
if not into you know, civil war like it would
it would it would have permanently gridlocked you know, the government,
the emergent government, and it would have had no legitimacy.
But the kind of alibi was always well that was
the Soviets doing that, you know, and the NKVD was
doing that, and the or these were just you know outlie,
these these are outliers. You know, these were violent people
doing terrible things because this was like a bad time.
Well interestingly, this was uh well.
Speaker 1: They they tried to blame they always blame it on
the anarchists.
Speaker 2: That too, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the that was
There was these anarchic cycle pass and you know, they.
Speaker 1: They were the one digging up the you know, the
famous and taking pictures of them.
Speaker 2: But there was an incident, or there was a series
of incidents, specifically from November seventh to December fourth, thirty six,
there's this kind of a peak of of revolutionary violence, okay, uh,
especially in the cities and uh like the provinces immediately
abutting the ones uh containing the cities November seventh to
approximate December fourth and thirty six, a bunch of political
prisoners helping Madrid jails. They were just spontaneously evacuated, like
the outlying provinces. And these people were these were all
political prisoners, okay, like some of them had been imperisrated
on grounds that they were anti social or something. But
these these are trumped up charges. These weren't criminals, Okay,
that I need to make that clear. They were. They
were evacuated over these weeks on mass and and and
they were they were executed. They were just exterminated. The
man responsible at that time for jails in public order
was a man named Solarius, Santiago Solarius. He was all
of twenty one years old and man he thirty six,
and that was part of his alibi, okay, upon return
from exile with the that Franco, because everybody got you know,
amnesty like the jury as well as like the facto.
I mean, this was very much and then he spatter
to live through it. We'll tell you, I'm sure this
was very deliberate, you know, like we we've got to
finesse these bad feelings and let the past become the past,
you know, which under more ordinary circumstances would probably be
a laudable What the what Solario's defenders claimed the churse, Well,
this these are just false propaganda, you know, outright, this
just didn't happen. But then it's evidence mounted it. Uh
you know what uh what Solarios is people themselves claimed
as well as kind of what the regime came to
claim in like a soft pedaling kind of way, was
that well, you know there were there were there were
extraduicial killings that were wrong, but these were arbitrary and caprecious.
You know, extradusial killings that were were isolated incidents. You know,
they weren't categorical, they weren't organized well. In two thousand
and four, historian a guy named Whereverte, Spanish historian UH.
Kind of a right friendly guy, but like more of
a conservative, you know, not he wasn't the guy who
could be just kind of dismissed as some like right winger.
I mean it's not really that's not grounds of objective
grounds to dismiss somebody's findings anyway, But you don't say
what I mean, like, this guy wasn't some idealogue with
the you know, the kind of milk toast regime is
the kind that you know can be only kind of
regime in Europe after the Cold War? Would you can
kind of dismiss the He began digging into the archives
of UH, the UH, the Iberian Anarchist Federation and the
National Confederation of Labor which united at some point prior
to the onset of hostilities. And there are archives were
house in Amsterdam where I believe and I'm not trying
to sit Dutch people. But there's there's a lot of
there was a lot of communist cadre and revolutionary party
archives and sensitive documents housed in Holland. Okay, I don't
know why that is, but that I don't that can't
be disputed. Okay, that's why these documents are located there.
Where Verite discovered the literal minutes of meeting, you know,
between the Iberian Federation field commanders and the nationally federational
labor like security element, and they literally described a classification
protocol for who should be exterminated just on categorical terms. Okay,
And these people who were evacuated, these political detainees, they
all fell into that category. Right. These are people are
identified as fascist sympathetic, you know, people who were you know,
lay people in the calyp Church who had some role
people just denounced, you know. And this was something of
a mini scandal, I mean, not just in academic quarters,
but because even even up two, you know, and unfree
as occupied Europe is like Spain's kind of a different thing,
not just because it's not directly occupied by America, but
it's you know, it wasn't a direct combat into World
War Two. It's you know, there was more. I'm not
gonna go as far First of all, I'm not an
expert in the culture at all, but and I'm certainly
not gonna go as far as to say that, you know,
Spain is a more kind of reasoned view of historical matters.
But it's different, you know, that can't be denied. And
as I've dived deeper into this, that becomes clear, Like
the historical controversies of Spain, you know, so they're a
buttle to this, uh evidence. There's a leftist historian named
uh anghell Venas Venus claimed like, well, yeah, this happened
these these dimnutes from the meeting, that not that not
you know, a forgery. However, He's like, this was we
were on we were being ordered to do this by
the Soviet you know, like our predecessors, you know, they
were being ordered to do this by the Soviet Union.
And the man primarily colored build was a man named
Alexander Orlov. Who's Elexander Orlov. Well he was the chief
of the nkv D in Spain. Okay, so, okay, there's
problems with an alibi for a lot of reasons. It's like, okay,
if you're under let's say, let's say that's undredercent correct. Okay,
so you're under duress. Why was there an nkv D
in Spain? I mean like there was there literally was
an mkv D office in Spain, you know, and it
you know, uh, I mean that raises questions of its own.
It's like, okay, well they got there somehow are he's saying,
the Soviet Union invaded Spain. You know, you were powerless
to resist them, you know, they they you invited the
men to help you fight against a fascist coup that
was burgen thing, but then they took over. I mean,
this isn't it's not as this is preposterous, but I
mean in some ways it's worse than what what the
initial allegation was, you know. But it also it cuts
against to your point, like the alibi for the preceding
you know, sixty seventy years had been well that was that,
that was these that was these anarchists who were pragically
fascists themselves. They had nothing to do with us, and
these were just crazy people. You know. It's like okay,
so now not now you were acting under orders of
the Soviets and not of the Soviets, but the n
k v D. And like you had Russian officers who
had you know, who are cadres who who had authority
over your own people in the field, Like what is this?
You know, like I weren't weren't you all a bunch
of once you are a bunch of liberal democrats and
you know, uh, and that's why and people love freedom
like joined to go to go to go fight against
the fascists. I mean, like it's this like, on the
one hand, on i'd say this, I'd say that this
guy is not particularly credible, but again it's that in
some ways that's more incriminating than what than the prima
fati inferenced one would draw from documents. But it also
too when I a friend of mine made this point
when he and I were discussing this, and uh, you know,
he's he's got a law background, like guy who I mean,
maybe this is our kind of like bias in common
for how we approach evidence. But he's like, you know,
he's like, there's a if you're that cavalier about like
who you're gonna categorically annihilate? You know, we're talking about
non combatants and we're not. We're not using euphemisms like
these people are bandits or these are you know, partisans.
You know, we're not we're not using the language of
like me LII four and like saying, well, these people
are insurgents, like conveniently like leaving out you know, like
their age, sex or or overall health. You're just like
literally talking about like, okay, people identified under these categories
just poltical detainees, you know, there to be terminated, Like
you're very very confident, uh that this is never gonna
come to life. You know, it's basically you're you're not
worried about being taken to task after you know, General
Franco or you know, or his German allies roll over
you and and then and then put you on trial
for this or like you know, put two rounds in
the back of your head as payback, or just because
you know you're you've obviously you know, you're obviously an
irredeemable partisan, you know. And his point was that these
people had assurances from the Soviet Union from day one,
like don't worry about it, We're not going to let
you lose. And I think that's a correct interpretation, Okay,
I couldn't prove it in a corel of law. But
you know, one thing you don't find. You don't find
the Soviet Union like issuing, you know, in ninety thirty nine,
you know, issuing telegrams to to field commanders about like
annihilating a non combatants at Cantyan. You don't find Heyrich
Himmler saying like, you know, hey, by the way, you
know these people this is a race war, and like
these people are categorical enemies. So I'm gonna put on paper.
I just think you should waste them all, you know.
I mean, this is remarkable for a lot of reasons. Okay,
I can I ask you a question?
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think that the Soviet Union was planning
on winning the war and staying there? I mean Orloff
was the one who took all of the Spanish gold
to Moscow, right, and they and they bragged, and Stalin
bragged about how it was going to be a robbery.
And then Orloff in thirty eight has to defect because
Stalin starts his purge of you know, a certain religious group.
Speaker 2: Right. What I think is, I mean, you get the
way the Soviet Union looked at the I basically agree
with Suberov's hypothesis. I think jackham Hoffman makes a better
case for it in purely strategic terms and like practical terms,
pragmatic terms. Okay, Stalin had to show up to fight
in Spain, otherwise he would have lost all credibility, as
you know, like the Soviet people would have lost all credibility,
as like you know that the vanguard of like the
World Revolution and like as we discussed before, and it
kind of currents wey capacity people misunderstand socialism in one country.
And what Stalin was trying, what he meant by that
in literal terms, and what he was trying to project
by that in a sort of dog whistle away, Like
he wasn't saying like we have abandoned the World Revolution
or that like we are some kind of like antarctic
inward looking state, like a giant North Korea. You have
not saying those things at all. Okay, You've got to
be pretty well versed to releasing the rudimentary capacity. You've
got to understand like what orthan like Leninism is to
understand what he was saying, and you've got to understand
why the Soviet people like what on what basis they
were claiming, you know, to to be like the first
among nations, like in the Social Revolution. That's the connext
with which to understand it. Spain was where like the
battle lines were drawn. Spain is where you know, the
Bolsheviks collided, you know with the true like reactionary enemy
like the Soviets had to show up to fight. What
I think Stalin thought he could do was he thought
the NKVD people like or a of people like Eric Milk.
He thought that basically like uh, you know, he could
arm and equip uh the Reds other thing they needed. Uh.
The Nationalists didn't really have a pot to piss in until
uh Milch and Gary came to rescue, you know, after uh,
after Canari's uh act is emissary for Franco's people, you know,
and then and then the Reds had a problem. But
you know, the view from Moscow was, uh, you know,
the the kind of revolutionaries, you know, the Falanges, uh,
the national Catholics, the Carlos, They're gonna get smashed. We're
gonna mop up. And if we have to stack a
million bodies up, a priest non as Falangist and anybody
else who's not with the program will do that. The
Germans are then gonna freak the fuck out, you know,
uh and anything, especially because uh, you know Spain and
France it already like openly declared you know, sympathy if
not you know, allegiance, you know with the with the Reds,
that was going to exacerbate, you know, like the war
in the West that Stalin always believe was imminent. The uh,
the Germans are gonna get bogged down like they did
in nineteen fourteen, as like Germany bleeds white, like Stalin
and the Red Army was gonna like smash from the
through from the east. You know. That was like ideally
would have happened, you know, but it wasn't. But just
Stalin wasn't ready yet. And that's that's that's something that
the non aggression pack owes to also because there's this
odd situation where I mean once once the Vermont actually
did deploy and like I said, we'll get into like
Montoma's uh like ground element too, which is fascinating. Like
the Germans were the Germans were fighting in Spain, it
wasn't just you know, it was just like loof off
like hot shots, like flying a handle with sorties, like
you know, you had very much elements like going into
ground action against the communists they were killing Russians, Okay,
and vice versa. Potentially that's explosive, you know, but again
too like a non aggression pack, only only as a
context that you're careening towards war anyway, I mean like
it Otherwise it doesn't make sense, but it I believe
that was Stalin's notion. But it's also the uh, the
Soviets for the durationem of their existence. I mean, people
like like to look down in the Russians and like
make fun of them and stuff, and I mean whatever,
Like I I'm not gonna open up some kind of
general general discussion about like the character of Russians or whatever.
But they the Russians are serious people, man, and like
they like whate their shortcomings are, like in war in peace,
they're really really good at intriguing and they're really really
good at insinuating their people into them into proxy uh
elements that serve their interests and kind of like fortifying
and shaping those interests the way they want them to develop. Okay.
I mean examples are Legion. Okay, like right until the
end they were doing this in in you know, in
nicaraugu and I'll sell it or you know like they
which frankly was incredible because that was that that would
have been, that would have that would have been like
the feather in their cap, you know, like, hey, we've
got you know, we've we've got actual like us Lennon
as client regimes. You know, I got on the American continent.
There's nothing America can do about it, you know, without
waging some kind of jungle war with you know, half
of half the country is in the Panama zone. But
he hasn't mad like That's that's what I believe the
Soviet notion was. And when when the Reds got the
first of all in Germany came in like in the
with when it deployed in depth the way it did,
I don't think Stalin got very worried. I don't think
he knew that the Germans were capable of that. I
don't think a lot of people did. And plus it
was that's when Gering was like his best. Arguably he
was an attic then and he but he he still
had it together like Erard Millerts, who I think was
the best. He was Eron Mills is one of the
best field marshals the Germans had. The guy was like
a literal genius, you know, and he later like he's
the guy relieved the beleaguer Hrmacht and Norway and like
literally saved the day, you know, like hevon Toma was
one of the was one of the was one of
the armies best freaking commanders. Like these guys, these weren't
like second Raiders who were going to fight in Spain.
And you know, these were these guys who like the
Kareama like they hear on the Loofaffa, you know, like
at that point, and they they they they had a
they very much had a sense of h and they're
very gung hole guys. You know, they're like, hey, we're
going to fight the Rets. You know, We're not there's
in some stupid war rope into against France because like
we're always dealing with the French or something or it's
not you know, it's not making meat and border dispute,
like we're fighting the communists, Like this is it, you know,
like this is this is uh, this is our chance
to to smash these people, you know, like after they've
been racking up victories, you know, for the last last
twenty years. You know it, but it's hard to say.
I mean, Stalin playthings close to the chest. I mean
what Stalin did say, and like we've got into both
in the last episode on the Spanish War. But you know,
in our UH, in our Second World War series throughout
the nineteen thirties, Stalin addressing UH, like particularly cadres and
general officers in the Red Army and kind of like
feeling them out, you know, as as a group, you know,
to see like really if they were like battle ready,
you know, in a general war against Germany. I mean,
Germany's always like Russia's proble opponent, but you know what
I mean, like in more concrete terms. But then it
was after about it was about nineteen thirty seven, ninety
thirty eight that like suddenly Stealins are talking about like,
look like you know, our doctrine, our our political doction
in our battle doctrine is anonymous, you know, like we
we we never fight defensively, like we always fight on
foreign soil unless like you know, we're we're affecting you know,
like a fighting retreat because we're expstentially threatened, you know,
like the uh, like you know, like the Bolshevik cause
is inextricably linked, you know, to the to the Russian
national ambitions. We started talking like a world word, you know,
we started talking to uh, you know, like you started.
He started issuing these like procles from on high, you know,
just to Soviet people, you know about like we've got
you know, we can we can withstand any hardship and
you know we we we can never like lose lose
our faith and in the Communist cause, like no matter
how grim things are for us moving forward, It's like,
what was he talking about? He's not He's not He's
not talking about like breadlines getting longer. He's not talking
about it being really cold, mixt winner you know, he's
it's obvious what he's talking about. And it and Gearing
it was thirty seven. I think when Gearing as uh,
you know, he he went with like the loof off
of like military liaison you know, to these to these
to this aircraft factory in the you're alls, and like
the single aircraft factory had like quadrupled the capacity of
like all German aircraft factories combined. Like I mean, you
don't you don't build something like that like unless they're
mobilizing for war, you know, I mean it's so I
mean taken together it and with storians, including Bevar, they'll
always say like, well, of course the Soviet you know,
the Soviets, they tried to cast the war. They could
try to guess warfare generally is like a schoolyard fight, like, oh, well,
you know, the Germans struck first. It's like, I mean,
it's like saying that, like as like calling somebody who
moves first and chess the aggressor okay, like it doesn't
the Soviets, there's no such thing. If you've got if
you've got five million men out their arms and you know,
you're building military aircraft by the hundreds, like there's not
there's not a defensive purpose for those. I mean, there's
defense and an offensive war doesn't make sense anyway, but
it all that matters and strategic planning, his capabilities, and
what Stalin was doing was he was amassing he was
amassing the mightiest military force the world has ever seen.
And then made the point once once the stories developed
the bomb, even after the devastation of World War two,
I believe Stalin was the single most powerful man who's
ever lived. Okay, people can't conceptualize that these days, I
don't think. Okay, but that's what uh, that's what I think. Uh,
that's that's what I think we might understand it was.
But it's also you know, it bears noticing too that
there was obviously, you know, like during uh uh you know,
the Munich Soviet and during link the Weimar years. I
know that, like Trotsky's forces had gotten spanked in Poland,
and obviously the Soviets were like arming those cadres like
cause you know, havoc in Germany. But it's not you
know that the n KVD wasn't deploying to Munich, you know,
like I mean, it wasn't like the Soviets were, regardless
of the fact that you know, again, uh, Soviet Soviet
control is invoked as an alibi by apologists for communist
violence in Spain, regardless of that, and regardless of degree
of culpability and relative or absolute terms between the Red
Spaniards in between the Soviet cadres, the Soviet Union had
an actual NKVD branch there, you know, they had it
beyond like nominal like political representation just to be like
relaying to Moscow the battlefield situation was, you know, like this,
this was not normal for the Soviet Union, and I
realized the Soviet news and the abnormal state. But in
terms of its power, projection, tendencies and strategy, it this
was an outlier in terms of how it usually behaved.
So you know, again I I think like a lawyer
in terms of the evidence I favor and in terms
of the way I calculate intention, particularly in war and
peace terms. But motive means and motive that means an opportunity.
It tends to be how you convinced the try refect
of scientier. The court room is not uh bound by
formal logic or anything. But we're talking about human affairs.
There is something to that, you know, whether you're talking
about individual men or were at scale. And again I
I I don't think this can be denied. And even
even where their conspiguous absence of some of this, some
of this data of an entry data. Again, the Soviets
couldn't afford to not fight in Spain did over the
Third Reich. But even more so for the Soviets, the
uh did sit out World War One, and that interestingly,
that that that contributed in in oblique ways to the
political situation in the thirties, Spain was a weird state.
Man Like. On the one hand, I mean, Spain had
an African empire, you know, they had They couldn't be
said that Spain wasn't like a place of high culture.
But they became this, you know, and again like they
literally were like the first truly like national state in
Europe despite their kind of inextricable relationship to the Roman
Church in political terms, but they were something they weren't
are something of an inward looking people. You know, they
weren't practicing a global politique or even really a European
power politique, you know, like they there became an an
unprecedented demand for Spanish goods during World War One because
they were a neutral, but the influx of capital like
caused all kinds of problems with they're already you know,
kind of troubled currencies. It swelled the cities, which I
mean is this the cities were were were you know,
they were the repository of red sympathy. But it's not
as clear cut as people think, man. I mean, there
was national districts in Madrid and in Barcelona, and uh
there was also I mean, there were there was a
there were there's people, there's guys, there's Catalan secessionists. We're
just like catching their wag into the Communists because like
they they thought that, hey, if we fight and like
issue this is our demand, you know too, like the cadres,
they'll have to give it to us. I mean it
was it was kind of a alligated pastiche. But another thing,
guys like Beeborn mist understand it makes the point that
he's like, well, you know, why, why why why Spain
gets still behind the Gallic church and gets so outraged
at the mask of a clergy. Only twenty percent of
people went to church. It's like you can't you can't
adjudicate like the kind of the conceptual spirit for like
a better word of a country and a culture, like
by how many people are like sitting in pews on Sunday.
Like even the way the Communists framed their propaganda was
like Catholic. It was like a perverted iteration of it.
Speaker 1: But I mean, the the Inquisition didn't end until eighteen fourteen,
eighteen fifteen, and the Catholic Church was basically the courts
up until then. You know, they weren't they weren't the executioners,
but yeah, they were the court. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And it's also even a guy who like even in
a guy the only time he'd been in church was
like when he was baptized and like his mom's funeral
like that, I would like view the world in like
Catholic terms, And he'd look at the church as like,
you know, kind of the the instantation of like, you know,
God's authority on earth, you know, like it's not there's
I don't know Bieber's background. I bet that like a
lot of Tories is like a Church of England type
and he he doesn't really understand like like faith. It's
like a conceptual sort of orientation. He probably use Americans
as like a bunch of rednecks like me who like
read the Bible all day and or idiots, and he
use Catholics as like well they some of them don't
even go to church, like not not even not understanding that.
It's like it's something that's like interstitially bound up with
like your entire sense of culture, like you know, I mean,
you understand this, but it's it didn't matter that, uh,
it didn't it didn't matter that like most that that
that most people weren't going to church. I mean it's
but it's also too I mean even if I mean
even if uh you know, the action French say, uh
during their zenith, you know, they kind of they got
they got kind of edged out by like later like
fascist and nationalists, uh militias in France. But you know,
they they always made the point that like we're we're
like a secular movement, but that doesn't mean you can
attack the Mother Church, you know. I mean they they
were willing to go to war to like protect uh
you know, the Roman Church as uh as like the
state religion of of of like what they viewed as
like you know, the the ideal like French Republic moving forward.
You know, like I'm trying to say, like Italy, where
a lot of people did go to church, but it'll
like the Kingdom of Italy under a Duce was basically
a secular society. You know, it didn't matter that like
you know, half of Italians were like in church every Sunday,
you know, I mean, it's it was totally different. And
it's you know, like I said, it's it's something of
a it's something of a blind spot. It's it's somewhat
political and like deliberate and ideological, but it's something it's
part of it too. It's like a cultural blind spot
in this thing like too like it. You know, it's
been redacted from this druga record that there's a huge
outpouring of uh support for the nationalists cause in Ireland
and uh the regime there of vale Era, like he
had a problem he had to finish public opinion when
I mean Ireland, just like the cleared outright neutrality on
the on the question m a lot of even a
lot of voters, you know, uh in the Republic who
are basically like liberals, like why aren't you going to
defend the church? What's the matter with you? You know? And
uh and the blue shirts, you know, Duffy's blue shirts
mean two and three thousand men signed up to go
fight on the nationalist side, like all irishmen, I mean
Irons entire Ireland is a tiny country. That's significant, you know.
And in America, Cathlic media they give up signatures of
school kids, you know, like they they got something like
a million and a half signatures, like kids like progo
school kids you know, saying like mister Rosevelt, while let
it while we we love our sisters and and and
and freeze, why why letting them be murdered by communists?
You know, I mean like that, and and obviously like
New Geork types like I was just you know that
that that's you know that that's that that's exploitative, and
that's that's just you know, propaganda by by by atrocity story.
But I mean it's what he's saying that this wasn't happening.
I mean, you know, the the Gallix Church doesn't have
its own army. Stalin's famously said that, Okay, I mean
like if you uh, the the church militant, it has
to defend it, you know, I mean, and that's it,
you know, as well as like as other as well
as other you know, as well as other patriotic elements
and and Orthodox guys and and you know in German
prads who you know, realized what the stakes were. But
it's also during the Great during World War One, there
there became h there became like a deep uh that's
when the divisions originally uh kind of became like insurmountable.
Like it wasn't until the nineteen thre already, it wasn't
until like the night that even the nine thirty sixth election,
you actually had candidates for parliament saying, you know, like
we will not accept you know, like uh a nationalist
victory at the polls, like, well we will go to
war and vice versa. But the uh people uh military officers, UH, farmers,
you know, people uh like clergy, people like laymen, we're
activing the church, they tended to side with uh like
kaiser Reich, you know, and uh and and these kind
of and these guys like urbanite uh Franco file types
like tend to decide with uh, you know, with with
with London, Paris, which is interesting. It's uh. I mean
I I was making the point that, like the war
in Syria, one of the reasons, I mean, Sod's a
hero anyway, I mean, he's just a great man. But
it was imperative for people on the right, you know,
to to back Syria anyway they could, you know, in theater,
uh and as well as you know, people in a
position to like send money to to uh you know,
the the the Syrians defending themselves in their gene from terrorism.
You know, because that that that that that that that
was not to the same degree and not to the same.
Not it's not impactful in the way the Spanish War was.
But that's you better believe that was a was a
war of zechdieist in ideology and thank god you thank god,
you know, a sad defeated is Alamic terrorism. You know,
that's brought to his brought to his own soil by
by America and Israel. I mean, that's always the case.
I mean, the you can tell, you can tell it
was on the right the wrong side of the things
by the by the Ukraine War. And that's like a
more that that that's a ridiculous example because it's literally
just like this, it's literally just kind of like a
human trafficking like Zionis mafia like propped up by you know,
these like degenerates in Washington, you know, and they're they're
just like there's like provoking a conflict against like all
strategic reason. But the point is, like anybody, you know,
you better believed that's an ideological war and that you know,
that's that that's like the designated battleground for you know,
the uh between uh the opposing camps that constitute you know,
both sides of the of the Zeitgeisser Press I would
have been far afield today on on and what I
wanted to talk about. I hope that was okay with people.
Speaker 1: I got, I got, I got, I got you off
track with the uh with the question about the goal
that no, no.
Speaker 2: No, no, that's an import that's that's a fascinating uh.
That's like something like Frederick ForSight thro like John McCurry
would have written about it. Took a fascinating little little
side note. What I want to get into, Uh, I'd
like to get a little bit deeper and like theory.
I mean, I know it's like my wheelhouse, and I
don't subject people to it. I think it's boring, But
I want to get a little bit into like the
mice for next time, and like how like the counter
Reformation like impacted political thought, which ultimately made the kind
of like being the nationalist coalition possible. But we'll get
into like the actual onset of hostilities like in the
next episode that well, well we'll vote. There's a little
background time to what I just referenced, but then kind
of get into like the military situation and how it developed.
If that's okay by you, it's your.
Speaker 1: S That sounds great to me. Yeah, they're maestro. I'm
getting ready to actually go over some of his writings
on the Inquisition on my show.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's what I was thinking about, like specifically,
but it's I mean, he he's a very like heterodox
like Chavoc thinker in some ways, but in terms of
al Catholicism, like in foreign politics especially you know, in
them in from from really you know, like eighteen twelve,
eating thirteen, like onward like it, they can't really be overstated.
I mean you know that because you're a learning guy.
But this was great, man, And again I really really
appreciate you giving me the platform.
Speaker 1: All right to what we do every time. Get plugs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I'm still on I'm still on Twitter.
Who knows for how long I shut down my telegram
channel find beings and just becoming like a huge hassle.
I know, I made everybody upset. I will launch another one,
but I got to get things in order for some
of my other projects. I've got to catch up on
these long form manuscripts that I had a neglect because
I've been you know, I mean, I've been busy with
them stuff. It wasn't just as neglecting things, but the
I am in fact shooting channel footage. It's an involved process.
Actual like long episodes are probably only gonna come out
want like bi monthly, but I'm going to start shooting
like two and three minute videos like and will drop
those weekly. Okay, But there's a lot that goes into
what I'm not saying that play Martyr. I'm saying that
to people. Don't think I'm being like slack and uh,
season two of Mind Phaser, I I'm recording the next
episode with my dear friend Giles tomorrow night. That's going
to be the last episode of season one and season
two with the pod is going to change substantially, but
I believe everybody will approve of the ways in which
it's changing. Like we're not We're We're gonna stick to
the same as of topics. So there's other things I
want to emphasize and you'll see, Okay, and I'll give
it a write up on my substick so to kind
of hit people to what I'm thinking. But yeah, and
you can find me on substick at real Thomas seven
seven seven dot substick dot com. And that's all I
got for.
Speaker 1: Now, Thomas, until the next time, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man.
Speaker 1: Likewise, I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show.
I'm here with Tom seven seven seven again Part three
Spanish Civil War. How are you done?
Speaker 2: Very well man, thanks again for making this happen. I've
been thinking a lot about the revolution in military affairs
and what people trace its origins to. That's not just
a discrete question of interest to military science types or
you know, like war college types who you know, study
this kind of thing for its own sake, not just
to understand the things for the sake of posterity, but
also you know, game future conflicts. But it relates in
peculiar ways to the conditions that you know, power this
decisions of an almost purely political nature, like the true
the true revolution in military affairs was something that occurred
on the command to control side, owing to the owing
to the information age and the advent of it, I believe.
But its origins lie in blitzkrieg or what some people
commonly understand is blitzkrieg and how that doctrine came to develop.
The best explanation of what the controversy is, there's Basil
Ladell Hearts, who I think is something of a problematic historian,
but he does flesh out what the kind of the
key variables are in in you know, material to the
the question. John Mierschein, I find him more accessible. Mirshmm
is highly theoretical, but he's less deliberately esoteric than somebody
like heart. And he presents these things, uh ironically because
I think one of Meershimer's blind spots is the political
conditions which underlie warfare at all times and what what
the interplay is. I mean, he's very much a clouset
whitsy and he's also very much, you know, a quantitative thinker.
I mean, I got all like tremendous respect for him,
but that part ways with him in basic terms in
his understanding of the interplay of political and military affairs.
But his book Conventional Deterrence, Okay, it made it was
it was highly impactful during the late Cold War. I
h people always asking me for sources and things, all right,
The Journal of the Atomic Scientists. You can find most
of that the archives for free if you dig deep, okay,
on line. Now it's become kind of this like like
you know, pointless kind of piecen like environmentalists kind of
journal that no one takes seriously, but it had real relevance,
you know, from the eyes of our era until you know,
November ninetheteen eighty nine, frankly and the final phase of
the Cold War. It started running a lot of informed
pieces by people like Meerscheimer about the re emergence of
of of conventional forces as you know, a key variable,
you know, owing not just to to to emergent deeper parodies.
But you know, it's just like a more you know,
the the information revolution it led to just more complete
understanding of you know, the interplay of of conventional and
nuclear forces in in a few in a then future
conflict with you know, then extant platforms. But this piece
that I'm site, I'm referencing and generally a time of scientists.
It's basically a condensed version of uh near Simmer's book
Conventional Deterrence, which was published in nineteen eighty two, eighty
two or eighty three, and obviously he the article it
talks to from from you know, then current like from
the headline's issues relating to the able Archer era and
stuff and and the person to deployment and the UH
the the Minuteman system and things. But the book Conventional
Deterrence remains relevant because it's about the best statement of
the controversy. The historians debate on the question of Blitzkrieg,
Like basically it boils down to this, you know, was
Blitzkrieg this revolutionary doctrine that was conceptualized in in purely
theoretical terms before the Battle of France, specifically you know,
whereby uh whereby people like Heinzkderian and uh people like
uh Werner Gunn Fritz, were you know, understood that masked
armor was gonna supplant conventional infantry, you know, as the
as the the spare punt of of of of ground
assault operations. Or was Blitzkrieg this kind of uh, you know,
technique that developed owing to the unique exigencies of the
modern battlefield conditions, and you know, as uh as as
as as the French collapse and as the mainline resistance
you know, kind of rapidly just evaporated at points where
masked armor was employed. The great effect, you know, was
was that just basically like you know, German battlefield commanders
who who were strongly oriented towards what's called mission arrayed
tactics anyway, and had an inherent you know, kind of
tendency towards experimentation and flexibility. You know, they just adopted
these things like in theater, and then you know, very organically, ah,
a combined arms doctrine developed, you know, like owing to
trial and error under the critical conditions of combat or
you know, was was it again like just a just
a a theoretical coup, you know, owing to kind of
the latent uh brilliance of the German general stat And
of course people favored the latter. That's really I mean
that that sounds on it's face it might be particularly
credible in like general terms. But the you know, the
the Germans, the Prussian Army, and especially if you the
Wehrmacht as the direct legacy of the Prussian Army, which
I do and I'm not gonna be disputed. They invented
the staff structure, Okay, the United States, the UK, France, Japan,
everybody imitated the Prussian staff structure, where you know, you
have a permanent general staff that constantly studies in games warfare.
And they also pioneered war gaming as we know it, okay,
you know, like discreet scenario building with coded variables too,
you know, tailored to mimic likely battlefield conditions and things.
So in the German case, it's a more credible postulate
than it would be you know, as applied to there
as applied to other military cultures in a speculative capacity.
If you accept uh that blitzkrieg was a discreet doctrine
that emerged, you know, from theoretical quarters of the Rmoncht,
you also basically like like a concominant like claim they're
in is that well, like Hitler sabotaged this by micromanagement
or Hitler was basically like, you know, a siege oriented commander.
You know, he was uh, basically cautious in critical capacities,
you know, and uh, I basically agree with that, but
not for the reasons most people do. If you learn
the way Hitler behaved in in in a warlord role,
he wasn't this crazy, reckless gambler like a lot of
core historians or Hollywood like make it out, you know,
quite the contrary. He was basically like a conservative German
like siege commander, you know, and when objectives were reached,
you know, he he was obsessed with protecting flanks and
you know, constituting forces such that they could defend in depth,
you know, if necessary. But in any event, one of
the reasons why I think that the whole controversy was
kind of a fool's errand it's because German armored doctrine
it's testing ground was the Spanish Civil War. Okay, and
von Toma, who uh, as we'll get into. He's an
underappreciated German commander more so than some of the other
general officers which revisionists, uh, you know have kind of
discovered weren't higher praise than they were afforded other for
political reason and just because they were like overlooked in
favor of these more kind of dashing characters like Rommel,
or like Drrian, or like went manach thing i'd put uh,
I put Vontma. I consider him the same class as
uh Rick Toffin, as Ferdinand Schorner with the last German
Field Marshall ever. But he uh, he was a tactical genius,
I believe. And that's the other reason I like that
book by Hoffman Stalins Worb Extermination. It's not just because
it's a it's great scholarship, but he makes that point
in some of his other stuff too, that Ferdinand Schorners
it was a great battlefield commander, but in any event,
armor was dispositive. In the Spanish Civil War and the nationalists,
you know, the the Franco's forces, I mean, if you
want to think of them as nationalists, fascists, you know,
the like about the constellation of of of uh of
of just fascists who had general sympathy for you know,
the for the church and and for the you know,
and for the for the traditional regime political and social.
But they like however you want to describe on it was.
It was this kind of confederation of of of of
different forces but sometimes competing loyalties and uh, you know,
like we talked about before, before the loof Offa came
to their aid, you know, not just to literally transport
the forces and being they had across the entranean c
to the battle space, but all you know, they they
were they were in dire straits and one of the
reasons why they were just out gunned was because, uh,
the the enemy had uh twenty six tanks provided by
the Soviet Union, and those tanks were obsolete by the
admin of World War Two, but they were they were
in someways perfectly suited to the combat on the Spanish battlefield.
And one of the reasons I emphasized Von Toma, It's
not just because I've got you know, sort of like
a nerve's interest in the ground element of condor leadings.
I think it's cool. But out of all the men
that you know, Hitler and you know, the the OKW
could have deployed, you know, to command that element, they
chose von Toma. You know who was this guy who
was a student of on Sikh, who was an incredibly
progressive commander in terms of his understanding of combined arms
and just an all around like really well rounded guy.
You know. They didn't just drop you know, like some
you know some some tried and tested you know, Prussian
infantry commander, you know, and that's from van Tooma. Also,
like he was he was knighted owing to uh you know,
World War One, and I mean he was, he was,
he was granted the title for heroism, you know, like
he wasn't born an aristocrat. So I mean this was
a guy who really really had a ship together in
command roles, you know, but he he uh he one second,
he fought on basically he fought literally not basically, he
fought in every front of the First World War two,
which was rare. He fought he joined the Bavarian Army
an outside of hostilities. Uh. He fought on the Western
Front and remittently finally fought the Battle of the Marn
and was captured by American and French forces. If he
gave a pow for the you know, the final two
months of the war. But you know, he fought on
the Eastern Front extensively and most men had not, with
some exceptions, you know, spent like basically equal time like
in the East and in the west, you know, like
he fought in Romania. He fought throughout the Serbian campaign,
you know, very well on a guy. He was awarded
the the the Order of Max with Joseph by the
Bavarian Army, which was like the you know, his equivalent
of the Blue Max basically, you know, but it uh it,
it was equivalent of the Knight's Cross. And that's why
he that's why he got you know, the the the
the honorific in his name. But he uh van Brauschich,
who is kind of an under examined commander, I mean everybody,
the falling out between him and Hitler, you know, in
the wake of the very much being a hall stenter
being halted in Moscow. It's kind of what he's most
known for, as well as there's some strange intrigues he
seems to have been involved in, you know, relating to the
July twentieth plot. But other than that, he's kind of
treated as a footnote, you know, because for the remainder
of the war, like you know, he'd been he'd he'd
been castured out, you know, owing to him. The fear
is loss of confidence in him. But he was a
farmer dynamic character in at least in the terms of
you know, his profession and how he pursued it. Then
people often acknowledge so he was uh, you know, he
was he basically Van Brousa said, had you know, cultivated
Ontoma's talents by by you know, asking of him they
become an expert in arman warfare, which I assume Ontma
had been kind of pursuing his own course of learning
in that capacity anyway, I mean, just like going to
the battlefield record and everything else. He ended up commanding, uh,
he ended up commanding seventeen pans are later on in
the Operation Barbarossa, he fought at the Battle of Moscow.
Then he was trying. He received the Knight's Cross, the
Iron Cross. Subsequently he was transferred to North Africa and
he was captured at the in the aftermath of the
Second Battle of l a Lamine. And that's why like uh,
hearts like uh in the German General's Talk and like
all the hearts like uh, you know, kind of books
on on Hrmacht's leadership, like Montoma like features looms large
because he was used frankly in the custody of of
of the British army for years, you know, and he
he developed something of a rapport with these guys, you know,
I mean it, uh, which is interesting. So I mean
some people would say, like, well, you know, that gives
him kind of an outsized presence in the historical record.
I don't really think so. And there's plenty of especially
after the cessation of hostilities, I mean, after the day
of defeat, there was plenty of There's plenty of surviving
general officers who you know, could have been debriefed all
day and they would have been happy to have that
either a lot in lieu of the gallows or you know,
being unceremoniously uh. You know, it's kind of like cast
out as on persons. Plus to the British whatever we can,
whatever we can say about them, they I mean, they're
they're not a bunch of jokers when it comes to
the capacity to evaluate military talent and command level. I
think anybody would acknowledge that, regardless, regardless of their feelings
about Old Blighty otherwise. But Ontoma ended up in Spain
in October thirty six. The first shipment at German tanks
was forty one ponzer Comwagen type one pans Are one tanks. Okay,
and like the T twenty six tanks that they were
deployed to combat, they were obsolete by you know, ninety
thirty nine forty but it again for the for the
Spanish uh battlefield, they they were perfectly suited. And also
the Germans, as the pans Are two had already been developed.
The pans Are one was being used largely as a
training tank, like by the Wehrmacht because it, I mean,
for various reasons and including it was it was just
a simpler machine, you know, and it was uh you
gotta understand too, like most men at this time, like
it never even like driven a car, you know, so
it's I even today, I mean with all the Advan
and somebody would have and you know, learning how to
fight in armor and you know, like a contemporary tank.
I mean, imagine, imagine a guy who's never even bending
like an automobile, you know, like it. It's and plus,
fighting an armor is scary. It's claust aphobic. You're in,
you're inhaling diesel fumes, it's loud as hell like in
those days. Your visibility is compromised, like if you get hit,
you're probably gonna burn to death or you know, get
your face ripped apart by shrapnel. I mean, it's it's
no joke, you know. So training an armor is not
just like teaching somebody to fire a gun, or or
to dry or to drive a shitty. I mean, I
that should go without saying. But I maybe it's because
I mean maybe it's because like I I don't like,
I'm claust aphobic in a real way and my room
went on. One horror is being burnt alive. But I
I've always thought, uh, I've always I've always thought it
would be uniquely uh scary to fight in that. And
I don't generally have a fear of higher situations. But
the total, uh, the total number of pans are ones
to reach Spain was seventy two as regards forces and
being by the end of I still between nine thirty
six thirty nine of total one hundred and twenty two
were deployed, you know, including like replacements and everything else,
you know, like going to owing to attrition and going
to you know, just a mechanical failure in things. But
and like we mentioned, uh that the Nationalists were outgunned
by the Soviet T twenty six, which were fitted with
a forty five millimeters main gun, which was heavy heavy firepower,
uh for the era the pans Are one, it's armament
was two M thirteen light machine guns. It was a
truly light tank, like in fact, like pie today's metric
or even by the metric you know of uh of
you know, by the by the metric of you know,
four or five years later, even by the mid forties,
it'd be a like it'd be a like it'd be
a light armored vehicle. It wouldn't even be considered a tank,
you know, and owing to these only this disparity of
of arms and you know, fire power rather uh, like
Spanish officers started agitating for the for the platform to
be retrofitted with a BREDA twenty millimeter main gun. You know,
Don Tomas strongly opposed this. You know, he said, you're
gonna compromise the integrity of the hull. Uh, You're gonna
literally have to drill holes that expose the gunner, you know,
the being targeted at visual range. You know, it's it's
it's it's it's a it's a it's a fool's errand
you know, and it was and that's important, you know,
I mean it's not the Spanish were thinking about this,
you know, like you know, like like like like like
a like an infantry commander would you know, like we
we just need to match firepower. You know, it's Montoma understood. Yeah,
I mean a lot of what goes into a lot
of what goes into combined arms warfare, I mean always
then and now, but also specifically, I mean, yeah, the
German General staff has oriented towards you know, warfare is
the advance of fire. But it's not you know, packing
as much firepower onto onto onto a platform, I mean
for its own sake, you know, because you're you know,
you know, it's it's some kind of it's not going
to caliber race with the enemy is misguided, but it's
understandable why they would think that way. But interesting, what
ultimately was agreed upon.
Speaker 3: Was UH.
Speaker 2: Montoma discovered and this was abided because he pretty rapidly
won the confidence of the Spaniards. We'll get into that.
Interesting that paradigm and kind of interplay the sociology of
it in a minute. But UH, what was most effective
was UH have one tank per section for per company size,
like a tank section would be you know, about fifteen
ten to fifteen panthers, like one for every one. UH.
One retrofitted thirty millimeter gun or twenty millimeters main gun
for every fifteen ten to fifteen panthers. Was what made
it most effective because you know they could you wouldn't
you wouldn't sacrifice you know, the your defensive armor, you know,
but you could bring the fight power to bear that
was required you know, in in in killing enemy tanks
or you know, assaulting hardened targets. But UH was also
revolutionary was Comps Group TOMA as it came to be.
It was reinforced by the three tank companies were reinforced
by an anti tank section. You know, because they think
of eight anti tank guns, the early models, which again
this is another this this platform popped up in the
Second World War some but it was basically, you know,
obsolescent because they didn't have the power to kill you know,
the main battle tanks like the TV four, it was
the Ponzer abdur Khan and uh. One of the things
people today, unless they're kind of students of World War
two or like private service type guys, the advent of
a main battle tank you know, which is uh, you know,
which which can function you know, somewhat like an assault gun,
you know, has the power to kill enemy tanks, you know,
like going to its only its penetration capabilities and things,
you know, like having that in on one platform. Like
that's that that's a post RUAR two innovation. I mean
it can't. It started coming about during the Second World War.
But you know, your tanks, your assault guns are dedicated
you know, anti tank platforms. They these were like discrete,
discreetly purposed set pieces. Which is interesting. But but Tom
was deployed as an obst latnant, which is a lieutenant colonels. Approximately,
Franco appointed him quote tank tank inspector, which seems on
its face largely symbolic of a title, especially when you
consider that there wasn't a dedicated tank element, you know,
armored element in the Spanish army, because there wasn't in
any army really except you know, France and Germany, and
then in both cases it was nascense in Italy too.
But Uh, this he Ventoma enjoyed tremendous authority, and there's
a lot of surviving correspondence in the form of telegrams
between von Toma, Franco's staff, Franco himself. One of the
primary liaisons between between on Toma and Uh and the
Spanish high command was Uh, a German guy who'd come
up through the ad there, but he joined up with
the Phalangeis outfit and he was fighting in Spain against
the communists before you know, the Reich even deployed forces,
and he ended up working as Montoma's interpreter. It's hard
to find out a lot about him, but he's a
fascinating character. If I can find out more about him.
Adolf Klaus was his name, I'll include it. But he
became onntma's official interpreter and despite the inherent tentions, frankly,
there was something of a classic culture is like stant
not just because Montoma was kind of the consummate like
Teutonic officer, like very uncompromising, very rigid, you know, very
very much a task master. The Spanish army was tough,
like nobody would say that it was not, and I
mean frankly, they would not have undertaken this crusading as
the Communists facing the kinds of odds that were extant,
like were they not very game tough men, but they
were all fucked up. Their army was not at all professionalized.
You know, you still had a lot of aristocrats in
in in the officer ranks who felt entitled the things.
You know, it was rife with corruption, you know. Uh,
there was all kinds of favoritism you know that had
nothiing to do with uh, with an actual battlefield performance
and suitability for command. There's vestigial trappings that code of
Hidalgo and on Toma issued a scathing report when he'd
only been in country a couple of months. Among other things,
he came to notice that although there's many volunteers, like
for the tank branch, a bunch of other men, it's
simply been ordered there by Spanish commanders who wanted to
get rid of them. You know, so I will send him.
This guy's a trouble maker. Were like I don't like him,
or like maybe I want to even screw his wife
or something. I know, I'll send him, to send him
to the Cound of Religion. And von Toma pulled no punches,
and he uh, he threatened to leave. He threatened to
in his words, uh, you know, just just just like
resign command and leave. And he was able to convince
Franco or more properly, I mean, I mean Franco was
a Franco new what side his bread was buttered on.
He recognized he needed the Germans and he needed Vontoma.
But the whoever in the high command were, you know,
his primary points of contact, he was able to finesse
them to you know that. Look like, whoever the men
you send me, they've got to be the constant the
Ponzer group. They've got to be comfortable with a variety
of functions and roles of a type that you are
not habituated to and probably are probably are our occupational
functions of first impression, you know, like I said, they
had to be psychologically tough and fortified to deal with
the inherent difficulties of fighting and armor. They uh, he
said that just in in in raw, like staff needs
or personnel needs. You know, when Thomas said there there
had to be at least fifty volunteer troops posted at
all times to the tank school, you know, the tank
training around on Tone was overseeing twenty five dedicated gunner trainees,
twenty five dedicated drivers you know, being uh you know,
after a after their initial training subjective, they should then
undertake a four week course, a combat training course, upon
completion of which they could be immediately posted a front
as needed as replacements to be a constant rotation of
tank crews you know, who are highly trained in every
every function of armored warfare. You know, the the to
get her, you know, they they were habituated and they'd
be accompanied by their officers or n CEOs you know
that had overseen them during the training cycle. And Montmo
insisted upon this too. This is a general postulate that
was to become doctrine squad CEOs who are who would
be NCOs in the Spanish Army I believe, you know,
like senior n c os and company commanders who would
be officers they they when told says they had to
always be present with their squad and company actively leading
the men from the front. This was not this could
you know? This was not negotiable. And he concluded this
report by stating openly that if the tank section cannot
make up for the casualties that you know they're going
to suffer with troops and commanders and n c os
who were both tactically and technically proficient, that we're going
to lose the war. You know, It's just there's no
two ways about it. You know, this war is going
to be one or lost with the ground element, and uh,
it's gonna be one by proper deployment of the of armor. Okay,
And now I hope it's coming into focus. Why I
subjected the listeners to that extended introduction about the revolution
and military affairs and Meersheimer's postulates they're in and the
you know that what's what can be thought of as
the Blitz Greek controversy. Okay, because what I am positing
is in rebuttal to both of those perspectives, as I'm
sure people are discerning. I'm not any kind of military
expert at all. Okay, but I do know something about history,
and I do know something about you know, the Vermont,
all right, and I think, uh, I know something about
military science as much as uh, you know, like a
layman who's not like a game theorist or like a
prior service officer type. Can you know, people are welcome
to take me to task for this, and I mean it,
you know, I make myself available anybody who wants to
debate these things that I propose. But you know, like
I said, I'm relying upon the direct testimony of the
participants to these events and uh you know the uh
and relying upon you know, the conditions leading to the
outcome of disengagement. You know, it's I don't think it
can be said that I'm speculating. Lontma also, and again
this is something that people generally only discussed from the
iconics the Battle of France. I realized the first open
ended deployment of the Fairmacht was in Poland. But Poland
didn't have a meaningful uh you know, tank section. So
we're talking about you know, modern combined arms between you know,
between forces where it's like a general parody. You know,
technological as well as numerical are our r analysis begins.
In nineteen forty Lontma directed that tank companies can only
could not operate in isolation from one another. They had utilized,
they had utilized massed firepower and advance of fire and addition,
the transport company and the supporting mobile workshop and maintenance company.
You know, they had to be maintained at optimal capabilities
and deployed to the front at all times and support
the assault element, you know, regardless of the drain that
this is gonna you know, place on on the regular
infantry and on you know, the corp of engineers and
anybody else. You know, this is yours, this is your
assault element. This is the share punk of your assault element.
You know, it has to take absolute priority and that yeah, okay,
we take that for granted today. But again this is
this is nineteen thirty six in Spain. Okay, armored armored
warfare as we know it doesn't exist yet, you know,
and this is four years this is three three years
and some months before the Battle of France. Okay, so
this is remarkably sick. I spoke a moment ago about
there's a lot said, especially because you know, relations were
not always particularly amiable. You know, between the Germans and
their Latin allies, whether we're talking about you know, the
Italians of the Spaniards. A lot of people insinuate that
there was a kind of like ugly racial prejudice at
work there. I think that's overstated what came to be
known perhaps kind of you know. I mean, it's what
came you know as a Tomorrow affair, which seems to
overstate the significance of it, you know, by characterizing it
as with some sort of scandal. On December thirty first,
nineteen thirty eight, but Tolma sent an urgent telegram to
Infantry Colonel Ricardo from that this the tamer he was
the primary liaison with Franco's high command or the equivalent
of a general staff okay, and in some basic capacity,
and uh, this was going into the final phase of
the war. Vntoma demanded know on certain terms to be
infeigned beforehand of any change of an operational or logistical nature,
or any personnel related matter or policy. And this had
all these things that to be subject to his view
or approval, you know, And he reiterated, I, you know,
I was appointed by Franco his tank inspector. You know,
and is is a demand is not immediately obeyed, I
will withdraw my contribution. In his words, So again this
is him threatening to throw his hands up and resign.
You could read that as him being a prima donna
of a sort. I think he was entirely serious. I
don't think that can be disputed. And again you're looking
at this army, which you know in the Spaniards, which
again has some very core of very game tough men,
but it's unbelievably and most comically corrupt, you know. Uh,
and it's only kind of held together at the level
of a general officers by people like Tom Marie, who
were you know and later surrouno sooner who will get
into it. Was a great man. But uh, you know,
cracking the whip on these people was uh what was essential?
You know. It doesn't owe to some kind of like
Teutonic racism against you know, Latins or something, which, uh,
that kind of interpretation has become increasingly common. I've noticed,
you know, even in like military history, which is supposed
to be just kind of like hard and fast accounts
of the facts, you know, and the uh, the quantifiable
side of things. I think that's bullshit. You know, I mean,
that's why I but it's also there's what came of
of uh the Thomery memo was or telegram by Tomac Gott.
Whatever he wanted, he got everything he wanted, you know,
and he he basically became the de facto you know,
commander armored forces for nationalist Spain, you know. And that's
that goes to short of the degree to which the
Wehrmacht was the key to you know, uh nationalist victory
in the war. It wasn't you know, the loof Off
made a tremendous contribution. And and like we discussed, you know,
in the previous two episodes, Erhart Milch was was it
was a was a military genius and an incredible commander
and one of the greatest air commanders of all time.
I take nothing away from that, but it was you know,
wars are won, you know, by by the ground element, Okay,
they are, and this was essential to that effort. And
we're not just talking about, you know, with without von Tolma,
like there is no there is no there is no
Spanish armored element. You know, you're throwing your you're throwing
Spanish industry at these t twenty six tanks, they're being
cut to pieces. You know, is the fact not only
that he was able to constitute you know, armored force
or before there had been nothing, but he managed to
do this really with a handful of of pans or ones,
armed with a couple of light machine guns and not
particularly durable armor. And he was able to convince a
much of proud Spaniards to basically like hand him like
absolute authority over the over the entire enterprise. That's that's
nothing sort of remarkable. I don't don't think it could
be contested, but there's uh, subsequent and particularly in like
the final months of the war in ninet thirty nine,
they developed this kind of like genuinely amicable cordiality, at
least as far as you can discern through the language
barrier and through their you know, brevity of of these
written communicats and telegrams between Montona and tamer But the uh,
the rest of these Spanish officers too, who initially had
a you know, been not out and out hostile because
they realized the various situation and that they needed they
needed the Germans. But you know, they certainly Spaniards are
a proud people. If nothing else and it was a
better pill for them to swallow a seed control a
Veramacht officer in that way, although there's no shame in that,
you know, the Vermont was the best and they're they're
the greatest of all time. By the end of the war, ultimately,
Spanish tankers they were undergoing a sixty day course basic
course for all personnel, you know, those uh, those who
were trained to be drivers as well as those training
to be gunners. It was thirty days of theoretical training,
thirty days of practice duration and then UH intensive combat
training and then deployment to the front as needed. So
there's a constant you know, like as has discussed a
moment ago, there was a constant flow of replacements, you
know who UH had at least cohesion within the squad
of a KI and that only comes from you know,
living and UH fighting together ordinarily because they'd gone to
the training cycle. And a lot of these men were
combat veterans too, just not of you know, obviously, not
of fighting an armor. You know, some were, some had
no no prior experience, but they were the minority. But
the UH what's fascinating too is that the UH, the
anti tank element that Montou insisted upon that particular assault gun.
It was a three point seven centimeter assault gun. It
was manufactured by Ryan Medel Borsing, and it rapidly became
ubiquitous like that itself, that like that making lott of
itself as well as reverse engineered knockoffs in the in
this in the Red Army, in the in the US Army,
the Japanese imitated it, uh, the the the Wehrmacht faced
them in the in the Benlux countries when they went
through Holland. The Italians deployed it, you know, as late
as uh as late as forty three, like around the
time the Celeronal landings. So again, like even even though
these uh pretty much every pretty much every weapons platform
we've described again it was like obsolescent, but they had
been a World War Two. But these were perfectly suited
to the Spanish battle space, and it was uh, it
was the experience of these platforms they're you know, in
heavy combat over years that led to the development of
you know, successor technologies. And I find that fascinating, and
you know, that's why, like I said, there's plenty of
historians who posit that the the Second World War actually
started in Spain from a historicis's gonna hit the Ali perspective,
I've got more than a little bit of sympathy for
that perspective. But it's also military objectives were oddly bound
up with policy objectives in the twentieth century in a
way that was not conceivable before or since. And it
wasn't just that, you know, the German rech and Hitler
himself had a concept of Laban's wrong and racial posterity
and the need to develop Europe into a superpower, the
age of the superpower. It arrived. That was part of it,
but it owed everybody, from Werner Sombart to George Sorell
to uh Ernest Younger made the point, you know, sometimes obliquely,
sometimes very directly that just the nature of labor and
production and technics in the first half of the twentieth
century just lent itself to warfare and organized violence at
scale just became something like potentialities therein like led to
it being a tactic of first recourse, you know, whether
you're talking about the internal situation of states or whether
you're talking about you know, resolving irridentist claims as we're
always you know, an ongoing issue in a European cabinet politics,
you know, there's not I made the point again and again.
It's fascinating that the German contribution to the Enlightenment, kind
of their only full embrace of rationalism was in military science.
To Clausalis, But war is not just diplomacy by their
means or politics by their means. There's always a political
aspect of warfare. But going to war do unders solve
political problems, you know, in fact, it almost never does.
The twentieth century, in a rare capacity, there was a
perfect congruence between military power and the ability to realize
high political objectives, and that is kind of the moral
of the story here, if there is one. I realized
that this was a very heavy, uh, kind of technical discussion,
but it's important to understanding the German contribution to the war,
and I wanted to this is this is my dedicated
Condo Relegion episode. We'll get into the Flange and we'll
get into the ideology of the Spanish nationalist and we'll
get into kind of the development of the situation there
in the next episode. But I wanted to get this
out of the way. Plus I hope people find it
interesting because I I mean, admittedly, one of my primary
research areas is the Third Reich. But even were that
not the case, that this positive variable in the Spanish
Civil War was the intervention of condo religion or by
condo religion. So I think, uh, I think it's just
material on its own terms.
Speaker 1: Today has been a long day. Give plugs and we'll
get out of here.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, you can find me always on substeck at
real Thomas seven seven seven dot subsec dot com in
a couple of weeks and launching season two of the
Mind Phaser podcast, and when I do, all the season
one episodes will be available for free. A lot of
things are gonna change in my content brand. I think
everybody will find that to be a positive change. I've
got a lot going on. I'm still on Twitter, uh,
but I am trying to disengage from there a bit.
As I've said, I've uh, I know, I said about
a week ago, I was gonna drop a statement of
my substack about moving forward, like how things is gonna
work relating to you know, I'm gonna make a lot
more stuff free. But also, like I said, I there's
some projects I kind of want to plug that I
I had to put in the back burner, like going
to frankly like ill health and stuff. But that's back
on track. I'll explicate that on my substack by this weekend.
I'm not going to take up Peach time when his
show to do that. But thanks again for the invitation
today and always, man, I hope everybody found this to
be constructive and stimulating well.
Speaker 1: And I just want to encourage people to go to
Thomas's substack and subscribe. I mean I I went there,
read one free article and subscribed and immediately started promoting
Thomas's work on Twitter. And then Thomas was nice enough
to come on the show and what is this U
forty episodes later.
Speaker 2: No, yeah, that's a fantastic endorsement. Man. I mean not
just because you're a serious guy and you're my friend,
but no, I really really appreciate getting me a platform,
and otherwise I would not have nearly the audience that
I have. And plus, I mean, like I said, I
think I hope people we'll get something else, and I
think they do because feedback has been you know, formally positive,
and it's not It's not always the case with things
I do. So yeah, I can't thank you enough, as
well as the people who tune in and you know,
were mean engaged. That's just great.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thomas, thank you. I want to welcome
everyone back to the Pecanas Show, part four of the
Spanish Civil War series. I'm going to turn it over
to Thomas seven seven seven and just let him go.
Let me just ask how you doing.
Speaker 2: Thomas, and very well? Thanks. What I want to talk
about today? It might seem as I'm jumping around a
lot on the topic, and forgive me for that, but
there's some things that I sort of want to tie in,
not just to our earlier series, revisionist series that we've done,
but also people have been asking questions that I want
to kind of address now, you know, one of which
is to us just two things. People ask me why
I'm so critical of Franco, because the Franco somewhat revered,
and part of that owes the frankly kind of the
lingering kind of a lingering Cold War hangover, you know,
especially after Spain sort of normalides, and you know, not
it was brought into the the e C at least
in a rudimentary way, I mean ship back then it
was the European It was the e c S, the
Cold and Steel Community, you know, by Eisenhower. It wasn't
until much later that Spain was assimilated in the NATO.
But the Franco regime is always it's uh. And I
mean even before that officially assimilated and formally assimilated in NATO,
there was a lot of you know, during command post
exercises and stuff, you know, like Spain would you know,
be included in a basic way there was Spain was
kind of viewed as you know, the good guy, uh,
like quasi fascist regime during the Cold War. And I
think that a lot of scholarship, like otherwise pretty based
and pretty correct, you know, right when it's dollarship. You know,
that was written in like the seventies and in the eighties.
You know, I think people internalize that. And also you know,
their their kind of view of Franco is of you know,
the Flange movement and you know the heroics of of
the war and you know kind of reliegion and all
of that. You know, they they they don't realize kind
of how perfect it is and and and machiavellian Franco was.
And I think that could be justified if if what
Franco accomplished with some sort of enduring political culture, you know,
that of that that served you know, the Spanish as
a people, you know, and as as a race, you know,
in historical terms and things, But that that's not at
all what he accomplished. I mean, Franco at the end
of the day, accomplished nothing. I'd say that he was
a detriment you know, over the over the long term.
But you know, so people ask, I want to get
into a little bit like what exactly you know, Franco's
sensibilities were on political matters, you know, pritically at the
most critical junctures, you know which and the most critical
obviously would would be the the warriors that the Second
World War, I mean not the Spanish War. But also
people ask me like what what exactly was the nature
of the relationship, you know, between Madrid and Berlin and
and Madrid and the rest of the Access Alliance, and uh,
you know, I've made the point that Serrano soon there
was a great man, and he was very you know,
he was he was very very pro axis. You know,
he he wanted to formally join the Access Alliance. And
we'll get into who soon there was in a minute,
but so I kind of want to get into that
today and then we'll pivot in the next episode and
talk about, you know what the Falange movement was proper
and ye pick up as a follow up, uh, you know,
to the ear each a episode we just did. But
for now, for today, that's that's what I want to cover.
And plus it's like on my mind, I was, I
was researching this a bunch, like owing to some other
stuff I'm writing. So, I mean, it's convenient too, There's
only so much time in the day, and while it's
like fresh in my mind, That's kind of what I
wanted to get into. David Irving who I I mean,
it goes out saying I've got a huge esteem for him.
Irving lived in Spain and one of his one of
the one of his wives was a Spanish woman. I
think his first wife was a Spanish woman, and he
famously said life and quote life in Spain during the
Franco years was very cheap, very simple, and very unthreatening.
There's little criminality, no drugs and no street muggings. The
roads were primitive, the life was quiet, and the sunshine
meet up for everything. I mean that was kind of
In some ways that's like a very English like backhanded compliment.
In other ways it's you know, it's it's a very
on the nose suggestion that you know, Spain was just
remained a backwater, you know. I mean, I realized there
was a Spanish miracle and uh, you know, conspiracy conspiracy
minded types like say like oh that was Opus day,
you know, laundering money through Spain under rospices of economic development.
I don't even I don't have any opinion on that.
I don't. I don't get to know interesting Catholic fights,
and I'm not a biggest I don't. I don't tear
down the Catholic Church, you know, at every opportunity like
some revisionists do, pite the contrary, but regardless anyone's feelings
on that, I mean, Spain was not exactly lighting the
world on fire, okay, like in the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies,
you know it it Uh, it remained kind of an splendid,
splendid isolation. It was I think about almost as kind
of like a right wing version of of like the
Tito model, you know, like obviously like there there wasn't
I mean that there, I realized that Spain's you know,
had and has like you know, violence, separatist movements, and
it's ethnically diverse. But you know, obviously it's it's nothing
like the hostility between between populations like in the Balkans.
But you know, Tito's whole notion was to keep you know,
just kind of keep things frozen and keep this kind
of quarantine almost like prophylactic armor like over you know,
the the the nation of the Constitute of Yugoslavia like
contrivances it may have been as a state. You know,
it kept the Soviet Union out, it kept America out,
it kept everybody out, you know, kept the Germans out,
the bundesh and even even Germany was very much tethered
to the Balkans and not in geostrategic terms, you know,
as we talked about before. It's why Helmet Cole immediately
recognized two Jamon's independent Croatia. But the point is, uh,
such that Franko accomplished anything. I mean, he basically yeah,
he basically just uh you know, he basically just just
just put Spain under like lock and key, like you know,
in every concee sense, like figuratively and literally, but again
that's not that doesn't generate anything sustainable. So what what uh?
What exactly happened between Germany and Spain? Rib and Troup
was you know, as foreign minister was primarily charged with
finessing the Franco regime, you know, to join the war effort.
Speaker 3: It uh, And can ask a question before you all
this this this is something that people would ask were
they in any kind of shape to join?
Speaker 1: I mean they just went through three at three and
a half years of hell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we're going to get into that. Like Franco ahead,
Franco had a list quite literally ever increasing material demands,
with material and political demands that had to be met
for Spain to join the war effort. Owing to that
very reality, however, it fairly quickly became clear that he
was not negotiating in good faith. You know. The the
the extent of these demands was such that they just
they could not be met, you know, and that was
the whole point. But we'll get into that in a minute.
But what what the Reich needed the Spain? The Reich needed, uh,
the Reich needed unconditional access to Gibraltar. The Reich needed
the Spanish to join in Africa and abandon you know,
the uh, the uh, the uncompromising claims they were making
on French Africa as well, particularly not exclusively Morocco. Finally,
Spain basically needed to needed to do avail itself as
as as part of Fortress Europe as uh. You know,
France that had done admittedly like post defeat, and France
plays into this equation more than people might think. Okay,
the UH, France and Germany despite what people claim, like
there was not like VC France and then free France.
I mean it's uh. Obviously the Gaul was uh, you know,
the Allies were suggesting that you know, de Gaul was
the true like you know, French president in exile and
that you know, Peten's regime was illegitimate. But Peten was
literally a national hero, okay, and the French accepted the
fact that they were defeated. You know, I posted up
the other week or the other day of my timeline
footage of uh. You know, the Germans like you know
allowing uh, allowing the defeated French like full honors and
allowing to like march past you know, the Wehrmacht like
as they were like saluted, you know, and in full
regalia and everything. I mean, this was very much of a
Westphalian paradigm at work. Okay, you know this idea that
you know, France just hated Germany with this kind of
like hell bent passion, and you know, the v regime
was was was completely contrived and was a fiction like
that's not true. And furthermore, the British immediately uh began
attacking French forces in Africa. You know, they killed thousands
of people, you know, not French touristmen, civilians. I mean
we'll get into that too. But essentially, what the Reich
needed in the West, they needed France and Spain somehow
come to terms, you know, on sovereign claims in Africa.
Spain had to you know, cooperate operationally and politically with
you know, a Gibraltar operation, and you know, Spain had
to fortify and you know, prepare for prepared to resist
any Anglo American assault a Spanish or Portuguese coastal soil
and those those you know, those were basically like what
the fears and ambitions were. But even then, as things
had developed, I mean with respect to you know the
pattern of hostilities between combatants, you know, regardless of ideology,
because you know, the war in the West was very
different than the war in the East. There were certain
complexities present there, even in purely geostrategic terms. This what
I just outlined is what would have what would have
been required, Okay, you know, notwithstanding the idiosyncracies the actually
were perceived of, you know, the respective regimes in place
and in Vase, in Berlin and in Madrid. It uh.
On September nineteen forty was uh when Hitler first directed
Ribbon traup, you know, to push as hard as he
could for the Spanish to cooperate with you know, Gibraltar
offensive and to you know, encourage him to join what
he called the Grand Coalition. Hitler said to Ribin Trump
and on certain terms every aspirant would have to be
left and the quote heavy belief that his wishes would
be largely fulfilled. Rybond Troup wrote in his own notes
that to accomplish this would require quote fraud on a
grand scale. Raymond Tropp wasn't saying, like, oh, Hitler you know,
was uh was you know, anticipating, you know, perpetuating such
a fraud. Like what he was saying was that Hitler's
dreaming because this can't be realized, going to the going
to the unwillingness of the of the the parties, to
the you know, to you know, to the situation, you know,
and their and their unwillingness to you know, compromise on
issues that might appear to be of secondary importance from
you know, where Hitler was sitting in Berlin, but you know,
was of paramount importance to you know, to them, and
looking at it too, like it wasn't just a prestige
thing what Spain and France were looking at in Africa.
I mean these particularly with the you know, the uh,
the realization of strategic air power. But yeah, uh, these
were extential matters of of of security, you know, to
the states that orded the Mediterranean. So I mean that
that should be that should be clear. And plus to
the you know, the Spain in France were not. There
wasn't the there wasn't the ongoing you know kind of enmity,
you know, only the kind of the tragedy of strategic
situation that there was between Germany and France. But France
and Spain weren't natural allies by any means, you know,
I mean, it's not it's not as if there's some
sort of you know, common bond owing to you know,
Latin heritage and the Roman Church or something. It did
it Really it was just absence, even between Portugal, even
between sales there's Portugal and Franco Spain. I mean that
didn't exist, you know, I mean it wasn't that might
seem strange on some level the people who live, you know,
in kind of the globalized twenty first century, but at
the same time, like it doesn't, you know, Europe, a
lot of these a lot of these political cultures were
still mired and kind of like the War in States period,
you know, which endured in Europe until nineteen fourteen. I mean,
you know, and not you know, in a in a
real sense. I'm talking about abstrac postules here. Something. There's
that to keep in mind too. Even a Franco was
more worldly. And even if the ten was you know,
a younger man and not you know, this kind of
inflexible you know, Octageneerian Field Marshal I. I don't think
it would have been any easier to accommodate them, you know,
these kind of competing egos and demands. The uh what
Hitler's plan was at the Berghoff. You know. He his
timetable was this, he was going to contact a former
French ambassador, Poncet or Poncet, who Hitler had always had
a good rapport with. He was gonna feel him out
about a personal meeting with the ten and basically use
him as kind of like his unofficial emissary. He would
would visited to pretend, he would make his pitch to
contain that, you know, the United Kingdom, regardless of the
outcome this war, is going to leave France out to dry.
You know, they've humiliated they've humiliated France not just at
the car but also by you know, assaulting and sinking.
It's a navy in uh Algeria. You know, it's it's you.
You have to accept the situation as it is that
you know, France and London are at war and you
know Germany is really, uh the only port you have
in a storm. And once he got a war guaranty
from Paten, he would take that to Franco and UH
ask Franco to advocate if not moderate Rich demands to Morocco.
Take that to pretend and used as the basis for
future collaboration, which seems somewhat hair brained, but again, a
lot of what Hitler got done was based on personal
relationships and the fact that he was able to finesse
these relationships into actual policy commitments. Something this precedent for this,
and what Hitler had accomplished in the proceeding, you know,
several years, including after September nineteen thirty nine, you know,
so this was not just a pipe dream, and people
can't just dismiss it out right as oh, you know,
that was just Hitler being crazy, because everyone knows Hitler
went crazy, you know, after after you know, the Battle
of Moscow or something or whatever they like to say.
But Hitler interestingly too Pierre Leval, who was the Prime
Minister of France, he ended up being the prime mini
from nineteen forty two to forty four, April forty two
to August forty four, you know, and he'd served previously
in the in the same role in the Third Republic
from thirty one to thirty two, and then i think
from ninety thirty five to thirty six thirty seven. So
again that and Hitler and Laval had had a basic
rapport or there their respective liaisons, did you know. But
again I raised this because it becomes somewhat significant later.
But it's also like Laval again, he he was serving
you know the quote VC government, which supposedly was you know,
this illegitimate regime. I mean, this was not uncommon. I mean,
he was one of the most he was one of
the more prominent you know, cabinet ministers who it's off
in the same role that he had before. It's like
the idea this was just some kind of like you know,
client regime that you know had no kind of like
organic legitimacy or something is nonsense. But Hitler, uh, Hitler
sent out feelers to Laval as well for the purpose
of h and Laval didn't have any formal office at
this point, for for the purpose of getting a personal
audience with Patent, which was no easy thing. And again
you know, it tells you too like Hitler's approaching Paten,
you know, carefully, and he's treating him with all the
honor and respect of a field marshal. But also as
you know, with sovereign had a state, you know, I mean,
like think about this, and especially Hitler, who was definitely
more kind of cultured and diplomatically cautious than people allege,
but who is not exactly you know, a man who
favored a for nests over or action sometimes brute action
and the threat of it. You know, it's like if if,
if the VC regime is this completely artificial regime, Like
why isn't a Hitler just directing the Tan to do
whatever he orders? You know? I mean it's that right there.
I mean kind of shoots the pieces the the narrative
of you know, VC being artificial or you know, France
just either like not existing after you know, cessation of
hostilities in nineteen forty, or you know being this is
completely astro turf like artificial edifice, you know. And I
bring it up to people again and again, and.
Speaker 1: I mean you went, you went over in in the
World War two series that when American troops landed in Africa,
who were the first people firing upon them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was the French and it was well it's
old too. Yeah, I mean Darlan, who was the you know,
who was the Martinette or I don't even know what
you'd call him, procurator, you know, maybe I mean, here's
the military leader of a French Africa and yeah, he
Darlan considered VF to be the legitimate government of France,
and he considered France to be at war with the
United States of America. So yeah, I mean it doesn't,
it doesn't. Yeah, you got you gotta look at France
as one of these not obviously they were not formally
part of the access to alliance and there wasn't that
kind of command and control integration, you know that uh,
you know, such was the case with you know, like Romania,
but or Italy. But they definitely were on the side
of the axis where the rubber I'm at the road
and the key theater of engagement such that you know,
France was still capable of projecting power to protect its
its core interests. And yeah, exactly that was in that
was in Africa. Now what did lebal say and is
uh response to Hitler? This very much emboldened to Hitler
with respect to you know, his Mediterranean strategy and his
ultimate goal of you know, bringing Frank go into the fold.
After his meeting with the ten, like Laval said, you know,
Britain the dragged France into an unwanted war then abandoned
her you know then you know, made war honor for
smirching her honor and killing her people at the Nurse
el Kabur a breached catapult. That was July ninety forty,
that's where the British assaulted destroyed the French fleet, killing
over twelve hundred people like French servicemen and civilians. And
then more recently in September as we in the as
we mentioned in the port of the car in French
West Africa, and again several hundred not just servicemen but
French civilians were killed. But friend force is held, you know,
and Lavelle promised, uh to return, you know, to see this,
you know, to seek audience with the ten and uh,
you know, return of the answer in two days time.
And uh that's uh, that's exactly what he did. October
twenty third, Hitler believed ninety forty two days subsequent. Hitler
believed that Franco's willingness would absolutely depend on the tenor
of uh of of of the approach to it. Uh
like what is yeah, like, what is meant by that?
Speaker 1: Is that.
Speaker 2: Spain at least had to have they had to believe
at least that Hitler was advocating for the legitimacy their
claims in Africa and the Mediterranean and treating Spain like
something of a great something of a great power, like
however preposterous that might seem. And I think in that regard,
like Hitler had Franco's number, and it wasn't just uh,
it wasn't just for sake of appearances, like the way
you know it was. It wasn't just like some people speculate,
and I mean Franco was a limited guy and and
and kind of a buffoon like a lot of people
I've read it speculated like, well, you know, this was
only for domestic you know, consumption, because Franco didn't have
an actual mandate anyway other than from this kind of
coterie of officers and you know, and uh and phialangists
who are who are a minority within the party, I
might add, you know who kind of agreed to cooperate
every sensation of hostilities. I don't believe it to be
true at all. I think, uh, as time went on,
and as we'll get into and as I mentioned this,
before we went live, Franco's demands we were deliberately like
so up tos and so unreasonable that you know, it
was it was kind of his way out of joining
the war, but these demands, like you know, Franko's obsession
with Morocco, you know him, you know, saying you wanted
like equality of status like in you know, in terms
of maritime passage and the Mediterranean. Like he meant all
these things like on their own terms, like over stupid
that might seem. And he uh, he actually viewed Spain
as some like serious major power, you know, and again
like raposterous? Is that? Uh? As that might seem. As
it happened, Hitler met with UH. Hitler and the UH
Ribbent troup and the UH the diplomatic contingent was the
diplomatic contingent respectively, of the Reich and of National Spain
met UH before Hiller got his audience with the ten
on October twenty third, ninety forty. It was the h
in the frontier town of Hindai, Hindi, France. I'm sure
I'm butchering the pronunciation. Hitler was president, obviously, Franco was president,
so is von Ribintrov, and so is Toronto. Sooner. Sooner
was the newly appointed foreign minister who was surrounding Soonior.
He was Franko's brother in law, but more importantly, he
was president of the traditional of the quote traditionalist Spanish
felanx and of the councils of the National Syndicalist Offensive.
What that was is that was the that was the
only legal party in Spain, and it was it had
come about by merging of the Palange and the Integralist
Catholic Traditionalist Union. Okay, part of the kind of optics
the Franco regime where they claim to both represent the
Church and represent the Falanges, which was a fiction if
anybody knows the history of these Tennessees, and we'll get
into that next episode. And there was a revolt of
the Phalange against uh against Franco's dictatorship, and that ultimately
the kind of the kind of enduring ripples of that
ultimately led to Snare's dismissal because Snaire actually was a
dedicated Falangist, you know, and had he not been related
to the Cuddillo, he would not have found himself in
this role. There's a cruel irony here too, because the
Acabam Ribbon shrow Up and surrounding Snare came to quite
literally hate one another, and they'd had quite a lot
of contact during the Spanish Civil War and beyond and
Ribbin Trump was beside himself and soon Era was appointed
Foreign Minister, and Ribin Trump was uh the anniversary of
his death, I think it was last year when the
university was death rolled around. I remember talking on Twitter
and in some other on some other platforms with people
they were asking me what my take on Ribbin Troup was.
There were some incredible diplomatic coups that Ribbon Troff pulled off,
and he had some remarkable insights in at key junctures.
But at the end of the day, he was an
international businessman, okay, in business a diplomats and and uh,
no matter what, the most prestige posting before he became
the Foreign Minister was his ambassador of the United Kingdom.
And no matter who had been in that role, you know,
he would he wouldn't He wouldn't have made any any headway, okay,
because you know, for reasons that should be obvious to anybody,
but that we covered extensively in our earlier series. But
Raymond Troup was incapable of of of coming to terms
with people who he developed a relationship characterized a personal
animus opposite. And this was the case of soon Air
and like you know, and Like I said, Sooner, not
only was he Uh a dedicated philangist, he was he
was he was incredibly pro Axis. The previous September, the
month prior UH Sooner visited Berlin, he'd sought out Ribin
Troup at the Foreign Ministry to discuss how Spain could
enter the war on the Axis side. Like now, mind
you like, Sooner knew that Franco was dragging his feet.
He knew what Hitler's demands were, and he knew that
those demands were sound and strategic as well as political terms.
He also knew that, you know, part of Franco's strategy,
it would be the issue demands that could would would
not reasonably be met either because you know, realistically, you know,
forces and being weren't there we're you know, and and
and those that were like that, you know, food stuffs, petroleum, weapons, aircraft,
you know that which was in being you know, Berlin
would never part with because it was an unconstable demand.
But soon they're honestly visited the Foreign Ministry in good
faith to try and realize terms by which uh, you know,
Franco would be painted into a corner. In my belief,
in my opinion, you know such that you know, the uh,
the Reich would contribute, you know, everything that possibly could
to facilitate Spain's entry into the war. So I mean
soon Air and Ribbon Trump wanted the same things and
uh they uh they but they couldn't they, you know
that they couldn't overcome this this kind of personal animus
what uh Ribbon Trump reported and Raybon Troup was something
of a haughty two ton of uh you know, a
caricatures sort And again that's another reason I think he
should not have been in the role that he was.
But soon There uh said that, you know, Caudillo demands
you know, all of French, Morocco and Algeria, you know,
for Laban's wrong. But this could probably be finesse if
you know he was offered Portugal because geographically speaking, in
Soonor's words, Portugal has no right to exist quote and
this apparently raged Ribbon Throp. You know, like, who the
hell is this Spandard think he is? You know, Spain
is a is a ship country. It's you know, he's
talking like he's you know, he's talking to me like
we're peers. And you can almost see like if you
read about these personages like you almost you almost like
feel this like outraged ribbon trop But I mean again,
if you're a diplomat, you've got to stay cool no
matter what. But again, part of the tragedy of this
is that a man like soon Air Well, I think
it was a real hero in a lot of ways.
But you know this, uh, this kind of a you know,
this this kind of self important, pompous Latin guy, and uh,
this kind of you know, supremacist to time type like
people like that are gonna mix like oil and water,
you know. And you can just see just kind of
by like like the words jump off the page, and
when when you read of this meeting, how you know,
just like what a disaster it must must must have been. Additionally,
Srono wanted to he wanted he want to guarantees of
military and economic support, you know, uh immediately to like
you know, this wasn't he said he wanted to go
back to Madrid, you know, with with the concrete offer
of what you know, Hitler was willing to provide, you know,
kind of like down to the letter, you know, and uh,
this is not that's not the way that that's not
that's not the way diplomacy has done either you know
it's and uh this would be the cost again of
uh of you know, joining the war and specifically you know,
immediately planning for an operation. This trilter apparently Ymntroft hit
the roof and he said that he'd approached the Fear
and talk about maybe letting uh Spain maintained territorial rights
to uh one of the Canary Islands, but that's it,
you know. He said that Spain's never going to have
Morocco that you know, France is an essential ally and
you're not. You know, this is paraphrase, you know, and uh, finally,
Riven trop said that you know the aid you're gonna
get is you know, you're you're gonna become a dedicated
you know, destination from German manufacturers. You know, we're gonna
put your people to work, you know, as we see fit,
you know, to sustain in the war economy. But you know,
basically you're a coolie, you know, go back. He basically
told him, like, go get his fucking shinebos and you
know the uh he literally insulted him by you know,
not just portraying Spain as you know, like a future
satellite state, but as like a second rate one at
that as uh this came is apparently a great shock
to soon error because it uh. I mean again, like
these guys weren't rob and Troup had done business in
America and like actually up until you know, the the
evil World War one and uh and then subsequent he'd
spent a lot of time in Canada, So I mean
he was worldly, but uh like not neither of these
men should have been negotiating anything of uh of of
of of the nature that they were charged with, you know,
like I Sigafreed Cash, I Uh, SIGRed Cash wasn't a diplomat,
but he he was slated to be the gall lighter
of the Moscow UH Commissariat, you know, had it come
to fruition, and he uh he was. He was the
military liaison uh to uh the independent State of Croatia.
I mean, I just think he's an interesting guy. But
I in in counterfactual terms, I was thinking about that,
like Sigarey Cash, like should have been the man negotiating
with Spain and uh it should have been a man
from the traditional uh, from the traditional aristocracy of the
church or the church like negotiating with with Cash. You know.
Again it's a. It's a it's it's a splendid example
of two men who basically agree on everything in terms
of like ideology and politics, who you know, could not
agree on like what day it was? It uh, And
it becomes Franco's private correspondence to soon error, you know,
and his telegrams to him, but specifically like his private letters.
So I mean, you know that these were intendingly for
Sator's eyes. He was uh, he was a Frank was
a fusively praising Hitler as a wise man, you know
and like a great man. And you know he was
dismissing Ribbon trow up as you know Ri Ribond Trump
is you know, he's a fool. He he's uh, he
heels to appreciate you know, what we can offer the
axis and you know these kinds of things, you know.
So again it's and if it's some like go to
show you how essential to I mean, if you're if
you're ahead of state, particularly if you're a world ord
as Hitler was by this point, you've got to be insulated.
I mean not just for you know, reasons of literal
physical security, but you know, because every anybody and everybody
is going to be you know, trying to sway your
opinion and make demands on you and things. I mean,
you just you know, you basically have to communicate through liaison.
But it goes to show you, like how how important
it is that the man in that role or in
those roles you know, in in discreete capacities, you know,
really really have to you know, be be able to
check their ego at the door. You know, if there's
there's no reason why like this, this could not have
developed into a real you know, a real strategic uh
you know, alliance, you know, in operational terms, I mean
uh he uh, even after when a protege as soon
are a guy named Pedro Gamero del Castill in nineteen
forty one January nineteen forty one, he reached out to
the press secretary of the German embassy in Spain, Hans Lasar,
and he he begged him basically, he's like, look, you know,
tell Berlin that a Serrano soonnor government in other words,
like Franco could be sidelined or killed. You know, a
Serrano sonir government, you know, it was soon are at
the helm and live with the Cardillo would commit absolutely
the access powers, you know, and This was incredibly risky,
you know that he was that he was talking about
these things in a basically above board capacity with a
German diplomatic representative. But I mean it goes to show
you Spain was a house divided. And it goes to
show you too how you know that the true Falange
like pro access element in Spain, like we're holding out
hope still that you know, Spain would join the access
as a you know, as a as a full partner.
It Uh, it's unclear whether Wizarre ever reached Hitler or
reached like the right Chancery and if he did like
what he said when it was said to Hitler when
it was like not the not by not by Castillo bout,
Hitler said, Uh. To Walter Hewle later on was uh,
he said that you know, soon air and not you know,
trying harder and doing whatever he could dissuay the Cordillo
was quote the great bigger of the new Spain and uh,
you know Hitler, the man always who always took the
long view. Whatever else he canna say about him, you know,
he realized more than anybody that you know, Spain's fortunes
were inextricably tethered to Germany's and if the axis went down,
that that was the end of Spain. You know, it
didn't matter that Franco was able to create a little
like you know, Garrison Uh uh, you know Disneyland, like
fascist Disneyland for thirty years subsequent that, you know, his
lasting legacy, that that of Frankoin, I mean is amounts
to exactly zero. Soon There uh and uh Castile proposed
they were the ones who proposed the Blue Division, you know,
after the honest of hostilities with the Soviet Union on
June twenty second, ninety forty one. And uh, you know
it's clear that uh, it's it's clear. Soon There realized
the opportunity that he'd missed or or or was cossing
his own failure. Two days after Barbarossa in June twenty there,
twenty four. I've seen it cited, as I've seen both
citations of the date. He Uh, he delivered a famous
uh kind of stump speech, uh, from the balcony of
what had been for largest party headquarters, called Russia is
capabal forgive me portuing Spanish, I don't speak Spanish at all,
but translates as Russia is guilty and it's essentially you know, uh,
bellicos epologia for you know, why why why Spain needs
to join you know, the war effort, where the flange
need to join the war effort, you know, like all
all true patriots need to slay that you deal Bolshevic beast,
you know. So he was, uh, he was. He was
like like many people, you know, like many great men.
You know, he was complicated. And again that's part of
the tragedy is that Serrano was basically a heroic type
and a great patriot, and you know, kind of circumstances
intervened to uh prevent him from realizing you know, what
he wanted to do. H accomplished for the sake of
Spain and you know, the national Socialist cause and everything else.
But back to forgive that, tangent I had to kind
of flesh out who soon there was, to make clear
like what the stakes were of the of the summit
between Hitler and Franco, but also you know, to kind
of understand, you know, how the personage is directly engaged,
you know, determine the outcome of this negotiation. The basic
object was to resolve you know, outstanding disagreements uh over
the over over conditions for Spain to join the Access
Powers in their war against Hi.
Speaker 1: Okay, Jimmy a favor you cut out. You cut out
there when you when you first started, you were going
to say right now, you cut out like like five
seconds ago. Can you can you restart that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, No, it's the UH to bring it back
to the summit between you know, Hitler and Franco at
the object of that meeting it was to resolve, you know,
the outstanding disagreements over over what conditions had to be
met for Spain to join the Axis Powers in the
war against the British Empire. Okay, because obviously, you know,
this is October nineteen forty, the German Reich in the
Soviet Union or not yet at war. Okay, France has
been soundly defeated. The British were defeated at you know two.
I mean, but you know, on to the war at
all costs crusade. You know, they're refusing to negotiate, and uh,
Hitler doesn't want to go through a sea lion. I
think Sea Lion was always just fertig ruse. But that's
another question. But the nail in the coffin of the
British Empire, you know, would be the seeear of Gibraltar.
You know, the Royal Navy would then be shut out
of the Mediterranean. They'd lose Africa, you know, they'd they'd
be they they'd be they'd be a garrison, uh state
on their home islands, you know, and the U boat
fleet could do the rest. Really Okay, the meeting endured
for seven hours. Uh. The Spanish wouldn't waiver, and there rather,
Franco wouldn't waiver and uh demands that Hitler described as extortionate.
His demands were. Franco's demands were the handing over of
Gibraltar to Spain once the British were defeated. Uh this,
you know, the seating of French Morocco and part of
French Algeria to Spain. The attachment of French Cameroon to
the Spanish colony of Guinea. So basically, you know, French
Africa becomes Spanish Afriga Okay, and finally German supplies of food, petrol,
arms and ammunition uh as needed, you know, to relieve
the critical economic and military situation to your point, faced
by Spain after the Civil War. And you know, and
subsequently as needed, you know, for long term development. Now,
Hitler couldn't disturb relations with with with France, Okay. I mean,
as we just talked about, that was the key that
was really the key to you know, victory in the West. Okay,
the key that the key to n SIG was the
defeat of the Soviet Union. But you know, the Barbarossa
hasn't happened yet, and ideally, you know, if the war
in the West can be won, uh first, I mean
that's obviously ideal, even if this was always a secondary
theater and you know, a war that the Germans did
not want to fight. These are the UK and you know,
the Mediterranean and Northern Africa. But the strategic landscape is
what it is, Okay, something that's important that doesn't nullify uh,
you know RHS Stofle's claim, and I mean Hitler's notion,
I mean the notion of Hitler himself that you know,
the like final like final victory is conquering is is
when Moscow falls. Okay, But I just wanted to reiterate
that for Claire. But uh, the only way that this uh,
the only way that this uh that this alliance, uh
that this Mediterranean alliance can work, is uh like like
Frances the Lynchkin. Okay, for reasons where we discussed Franco
is making that impossible for you know, for for France
to come to terms based on what he is demanding.
And Hillar was beside himself. But also he just didn't
he he didn't understand the abject uh you know, kind
of stubbornness. I mean he he view it's never deliver,
really sabotage the proceedings, and I believe that's true. Uh
said in Mussolini that he would rather have three or
four teeth extracted than go through that again, that being
negotiation or attempted negotiation with Franco soon Air, who was
again he was uh not habituated to being a diplomat
and uh he was apparently something of a boisterous, you know,
an impassionate person and a military man as as well
as uh, you know, a revolutionary type. He uh he
continually interrupted and in a way that apparently Hitler viewed
as totally tactless and stiff like that meane Hitler very
angry as a kind of as a kind of would
any sort of like old world Habsburg German. But Hitler
especially it was. You know, it's basically like, look, if
you're a definitely representative, even if you're a foreign minister,
you know when heads a state or talking, you don't
see anything, you know, I mean so it's just every
every conceivable sort of aspect of this of this affair
just came uh you know, a yasco you know, a
a literal comedy of errors. But uh, Hitler kept at
it even uh even and even even through you know,
when dinner was served and even afterwards, and uh it
uh you know it it came to nothing. And that was.
That was the last summit. There was the last summer
between Franco and UH and the fere and really like
any any official representatives of of of their respective office,
you know, it's the the Blue Division deployed, you know,
to the Eastern Front. You know, they fought valiantly, particularly
at Leningrad. But I mean that, uh, that was that.
You know, there was no Franco is no nearer uh
you know, joining the axis than he had been at
you know prior to the meeting soon Air. You know,
if anything, he probably sabotaged the proceedings in some small
way or possibly even a major way by his you know,
kind of uncouth conduct, however well intentioned it might have been,
you know, and it was Uh. Hitler went on uh
to meet Patent on the twenty fourth October. He readed
pretend as the victory of Verdune, you know, saluted him,
you know again, like treating him like, you know, with
all not just with all the honors do a field
marshal a little bit, you know, as also as the
president of France, you know it uh, you know, but
he had nothing he had you know, he had nothing
to offer, you know. In the French, the patience perspective was,
you know, we're already at war with the UK, Like
what more do you want from us? You know, And
I mean, for the record, you know that continued throughout
the war. You know, I don't need to remind people,
you know who another history that the final defenders of
of uh, the CHS Thug and the fear of Bunker
were uh, you know, the French off and SS you know,
Charlot Meine. You know, but it was it was a
you know, he just reiterated, you know containing you know,
it's the France can only afford the role of non
belligerent and official capacities, you know, over the time being,
you know, otherwise otherwise you know, and defend as you
know what we can in Africa, you know, from the
common enemy. But you know, beyond that, there's there's there's
nothing to be done unless you know, Spain's willing to
come to terms.
Speaker 1: And uh, that.
Speaker 2: Was that kind of the final kind of the final
chapter was in the final they're the nailing the coffin. Rather.
A month subsequent, November twenty eighth, nineteen forty, Ribbon Troup's
ambassador in Berlin, the foreign the German ambassador to to Madrid,
to Spain in Madrid Eperlin, he relayed that Frank was
now willing to proceed with East of Pursy preparations for
Spain's proposed entry into the war if you know Hitler
was willing to you know, if Hitler was willing to
now come to terms, you know, in some way that
you know, both men could live with. Hitler took this
to mean that this meant that Franco was willing to
enter the war immediately, you know, pending uh, the satisfaction
and conditions precedent. On December fourth, he sent Canarist to
Franco with a personal letter proposing that German troops formally
enter Spain and you know, prepare uh to assault Gibraltar,
which six was six hundred miles from the frontier. Okay,
so we're talking. You're talking about a real deployment across
across you know, the Spanish heartland, which is no small thing.
But again it I mean, considering, considering, you know, the
course of negotiations, this would not this was not an
outlandish request. And let's forget that. You know, German forces
spent three years fighting, you know, on Spanish soil to
you know, guarantee the existence of Franco and his people,
you know, and subsequently the government that they now you know,
they now they now enjoyed in Madrid. So this, uh, this,
this was perfectly well placed in customary you know terms
as well as you know, the commonly accepted sort of
rights and privileges of of allies. You know. Franco afforded
Canarius along audience on December seventh, nineteen forty as an
auspicious day. Auspicious day, you know, one year prior to
Harbor Pearl Harbor exactly. Franco said to Canaris that for
economic reasons relating to you know, the terrible cost of
the Civil War. Spain could not be ready to assault
the UK by January tenth. Spain could only and Spain
could only join the war. Furthermore, if Britain was on
the on the brink of collapse, you know, any kind
of attrition contest, you know, Spain just could not commit
to that, which again was just you know, uh, it
was it was. It was, it was, it was, It
was just. It was just. Frank was favorite method once
again of finding a way to to you know, to
not to not commit to the alliance while uh wrong
footing his enemy and in some in some way how
we're transparent, that might have been it. Uh. Hitler's rebuttal
response uh to the Canaris meeting was, uh, you know,
just again you know too, to reiterate, uh, you know,
the that Gibraltar was essential that you know, unless uh,
unless the United Tignam was deprived of its access to
the Mediterranean, you know it, Uh, it would soon prevail
in North Africa. Hitler had no illusions about that, and
ultimately that would be the end of Spain. And you know,
he reminded him too that without the help of you know,
himself and Mussolini either would be no nationalist Spain today,
nor they be any Cardillo, you know, and he said
that Franco's vacillating, added to dude, was uh not befitting
a general officer, which seemed to stink deep because uh
Franco proceeded to angrily denounce not Hitler himself, but he
gained close. He told Canarious that he never vacillated. Uh
you know that he he he was always committed to
the cause. But that you know, Spain has been bled white,
you know, because the fight against Bolshevism, you know, occurred,
you know, on their territory first and foremost. And you know,
how dare you're going to question the sacrifice of Spanish
manhood and all. But the theory was right and Franco
was wrong. And I mean it's that simple. I and
again too, I mean aside from that, I mean, all
all this which is obvious kind of who's cobol and
who you know was responsible for the inability of you know,
any any kind of real concourd to emerge between uh,
you know, Germany, Italy, uh, Spain and France. It's clear that,
I mean, Franco was a unless one puts, you know,
self preservation above all other goods. It's it's obvious that
Franco was really kind of a pox on on the
house proverbial house of of of all patriotic forces. Then
UH so mobilized and engaged against uh, you know, the
Bolsheviks and UH and their allies in Britain. This the
situation was a complicated by Mussoli jumping the gun and
informing Hitler that he intended to assault Greece, which in
turn obviously would have given the UK a pretext to
occupy Crete and then you know, to bring UH their
strategic bombers within striking distance of the Mediterranean theater. I mean,
there was there was other things too that were rendering
this the timetable, uh you know, and that we're putting
pressure on you know, that the strategic timetable for any
sort of remedial action to be taken with respect to
Gibraltar or anywhere else the Mediterranean.
Speaker 1: So go ahead was in Hitler really at that point
had just asked Mussolini to make sure that the Suez
Canal was secure.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And there was an ongoing there was an
ongoing uh you know, controversy as to you know, to
what degree the uh, the North African campaign should be
prioritized and to what degree then you know that this
this was before uh you know Rammel had uh had
had you know, struck these great victories out and you
know in uh in the North African theater. I mean
initially it was initially the avercorre deployed, you know, to
relieve you know, the Italians who were you know, failing
in every conceivable capacity and operational terms, you know, and
then later when uh, you know wrong. I think it's
somewhat over overly praised because he's a romantic figure and plus,
you know, people look at him as a good guy
because he he he was wrongfully implicated in the July
twenty plot, but he was nonetheless implicated and you know
the sad stoppo, you know, forcing to commit suicide. But
he it was uh, you know, it was it was
Rommel's you know, uh, you know, Prussian commitment to missionary
and attactics like Ritt Large, which kind of you know,
which kind of made North Africa into like a into
like a you know, a real battle theater because of
the fact is that he kept succeeding. But yeah, the
the Uh. That that was basically the Italian armies. That
that's what that that, that's what their responsibility was, you know,
vis a vis the UH, the Access Alliance and that UH.
And yeah, the Italian army in North Africa was problematic.
I think the Italians fought pretty heroically on the Eastern Front,
but the UH and in the Balkans there their mountain troops.
We were real game and real tough. But the the
Italian forces in Africa were not. They were not good,
and they were a liability in a lot of ways,
with some exceptions. I don't I don't want like Italian
people to get mad or something. You think I'm saying
something bad about them, I'm not. But the Italian army
had had.
Speaker 1: You've already pissed off the Spanish.
Speaker 2: So I mean, yeah, I don't wanna I don't know.
It's said, I don't want a whole form of Latin
people who are a man at me. But the UH,
you know, that was that was uh, that was that
and a lot of this too. I mentioned, Uh. I
mentioned Walter.
Speaker 1: Right as you said I mentioned and then you cut out.
So what did you say?
Speaker 2: I said, I mentioned Walter Walter? Hewell, a minute ago. Uh.
A lot of this testimony comes from hewell, you know,
and what he what he documented in his diaries and things,
and hewell was he was a career diplomat, and after
nineteen thirty three he became chief at the East Asian
disc of the Foreign Ministry, and then during the war
he became special liaison between the Foreign Ministry and the FEAR,
and he and Hitler became quite close. And Hewill was
an interesting guy, kind of like an unassuming guy, like
the kind of guy who is a great diplomat. Like
if if Hewell could have been negotiating with soon ere,
there would have been a very different outcome, I believe.
But my point is that uh, hewles Uh, he's a credit.
He is a credible source on this, and he he
really had no observing these things in his like private
diary where he was talking to himself, you know, like
here there really would be no reason why to finesse
these things. And frankly too, I mean again, I don't think,
I don't think. I don't think anybody really looks good
or reasonable in this MILEU except the Hitler himself, you know,
Like I'm sure that take makes people mad too. But
speaking within you know the bound irrationality of uh of
you know, the strategic planning, you know, based on the
conditions confronted you know, by all combatant states on the
acts of side as of October nineteen forty. And you
know this that this should not had developed the way
it did. But it goes to show you the human factor,
you know, and people and there you know, idiosyncrasies and
personality and and everything else. I mean it is, UH
is like like like sabotages the best laid planned in
nations more than any any army could, you know, much
of the time. And like that's not just some dumb cliche,
but that's uh, that's the story of UH. This is
the story of you know, the Cordillo and the Furor,
and you know the conspicuous absence of Spain and you
know on the on the battlefields of World War two
save for the Blue Division later the Blue Legion when
they were reconstituted, who were very who fought heroically again,
But you know, that's that's why. And that's all I got.
Speaker 1: Par too good, Let's do plugs and get out of here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I realized I haven't been plugging my website.
I do have a website now. It's number seven h
M A S seven seven seven dot com, which is
Thomas seven seven seven dot com. It's kind of like
a one stop not kind I mean, it's a one
stop place for all my content, okay, And I still
gotta like tweak some stuff that, like my Twitter feed
like shows up there in the timely manner, but pretty
much all like that video stuff I do like here
with Pete and other things, you know, shows up here,
like my podcast, you can like access it there, you know,
just like one off streams I appear on and stuff
like that, you can find it there. And I'm gonna
sucks it up and like fix some of the glitches.
And but I mean you can go here now and
it's like up and running, okay. But the stuff that
doesn't work particularly well yet, that's getting worked out. Uh.
You can still find me on Twitter if you request
to follow me, I will let you follow me. I
I just rubber stamp, but as it were, but I've
got to have my tweets protected because otherwise, like a
bunch of freaks like Zert rush me and get me banned,
which just happened like twelve times I'm not just talking
you shit. You can find me at substack if you
can find my podcast, it's a real Thomas seven seven
seven that subseck dot com. And that's pretty much where
up on. Like a lot of things are happening now.
I know I've been saying that for a minute, but
I am a one man operation. Like with my dear
friend and editor Rake, we're a two man operation. But
I'm I'm working on the second season of Mind Phaser,
at which time the first season episodes will all become free.
But there's a help alot going into that. There's a
hell blot going into like the video we're shooting and
I've got a helpot of footage, but I gotta make
it into something and it's damn time consuming. Just please
continue to bear with me, like I'm getting shipped together.
But it's and it will be dope, but it's just
taking time. That's all I got.
Speaker 1: Well until part five. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Thomas.
Speaker 2: I likewise, man, thank you.
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peas Show.
We had a little delay in between episodes because Thomas's
life is exciting.
Speaker 2: How you doing, Thomas, I'm doing well. Man. Yeah, I
apologize for that. I want to, Like I was telling
Pete before we went live, a huge amount of people
reached out out of genuine concern and that's incredible man,
you know it's really that. I mean not just because
that you know makes anybody feel good. You know they
have friends that love them, But that's the essence of
the social capital I'm talking about all the time. It
is like building you know, not just pragmatic networks for
you know, like political action things, but in day to
day life, like you know, when crises emerged, you know,
as they always do it on personal terms because someone's
being terrorized by the regime. You know, there there's there's
a network of people that organically like springs into action,
you know, and that so that that's been that's kind
of the silver lining, man like if there if there
was one, because that you know that the structure very
much kind of like came into focus, you know, owing
to owing to o into something that I mean, frankly,
in the broad scheme like was not a big deal.
But it's when it's going on, it's fucked up and
you like disappear off the earth if you get arrested
because they take away all your means of communication. So
I just I didn't I'm not trying to eat up
the clock. I just I just wanted this is a
good opportunity to kind of like address our friends direct.
But today, I this is this is the last episode
where I'll approach it and what appears perhaps to be
kind of a scattershot topical orientation, and we'll get into
like the nuts and boats, the battlefield situation and how
it resolved in the next episode. But to understand the
Spanish War, and frankly too, understand the path that Franco
struck out as regards to the fear and the third rite,
as well as you know Spain and it's gewo strategic
situation generally, you've really you've got to understand how unusual
the state and as society Spain is. You know, it's
a complete outlier. And what I mean by that is
this even you know, I disagree. I take a strong
exception to people who they're trying to identify, you know,
and people with people, and then a lot of a
lot of people who abide kind of Meersheimer's perspective do this.
And I only reference that because generally I agree with
those people on certain matters, and this is one of
those cases where I don't. But you know, they posit
that there's this kind of school, there's this discreete you know,
sort of school of political thought, particularly strategic matters, you know,
of realism, and that you know, there's some there's some
sort of straight line, basically linear trajectory between these cities,
you know, all the way through the people at Kings
of Burnham and this nonsense. However, the first really modern
political theorist was was Machiavelli. Okay, and there's a reason
why Machiavelli he identified he had identified and Isabella as
the first true like you know, are architects of the
modern state, you know. And then then and this proceeded,
this proceeded not just with failure, but the thirty years
were itself by one hundred years. You know. So there's
there's this lyrid economy of Spain, because Spain, you know,
in living memory, it's always views either the sick man
of Europe or this kind of you know, backward state comparatively,
or the state that's you know, compromised in terms of
its social sociological architecture, you know, by by reactionary tendencies
and you know, things that are more characteristic of the
developing world, you know, than they are uh that, than
they are Europe, you know, America and North Asia. But
Spain was a century ahead of the curve and its
political development, you know, even amidst uh these arguably, you know,
conditions have impoverished you know, material and social capital. And
that's a curious question because to a lesser degree and
in different capacities. You know, Russia was like that too.
You know, there was this tremendously evolved intellectual uh climate
in Russia. I mean, and it had horrible outcomes. Okay,
I mean that's that's why communism and found such fertile ground.
But you know, again, right, Russia was decades ahead in
terms of in terms of in terms of the in
terms of the intellectual paradigms. It was playing with a
state craft. But in terms of material capital and the
conditions that allow, you know, for material capital to truly
flourish and you know, and provide technological development, those things,
those things were absent. And that also you know, Spain,
unlike most empires space to say, Spain, the Spanish Empire
didn't become rich. It probably in it's in the terms
we understand health and money. This Spain, the Spanish Remora
zine that was was was the well these empire that
ever existed. Okay, you know, it spanned his planet. It
was able to challenge the Royal Navy, you know it
it was just it was just like it was. It
was a juggernaut basically. You know, it was just incredibly powerful.
But it's social art sector didn't really become more complex
with that. You know, it's it's wild we overstated or
people to talk about this, you know, the middle class
like it's this ambassador class, and like it can finesse
these intrinsic you know, alleged hostilities you know, between a
master and serf, from between like aristocrat and peasant, or
between uh you know, proletarian and and and and a
high bourgeoisie and and that's nonsense. But there is like
something of a causal nexus there. I think it's more
just that, you know, as social theological architecture becomes more diversified,
owing to the increased complexity of economic activity and behavior
at scale, that there just becomes more and more kinds
of threads of complex integration and interdependence between institutions and
people's and that appears from without you know, if you
want to like turn into an event diagram as this
kind of middle class you know, being embassed, you know,
playing in an ambassador role, but regardless of you know,
the chicken or the egg and how that resolves in
one's own mind or in real terms. That that didn't
happen in Spain, Okay, you have this historically divided society
and they, you know, finally when the nineteenth century arrived.
You know, the Spanish didn't Spain had a totally earerent
experience in the nineteenth century than everybody else did, you know,
like the long Piece, they didn't experience that. Instead of
the experienced incredibly you know, chaotic circumstances. They were punctuated
by crisis after crisis after crisis after crisis, you know,
you know, way eighteen fourteen, you know, they were occupied
by Napoleon. You know, they didn't just they weren't just
you know, they weren't just part of you know, the
alliance that at the Battle of Nations or something. You know,
they they were they were under occupation for for for
close to a decade, you know, and from there it.
You know, like we talked about in a week or
two ago, really the only kind of punctuated, uh, military
crises in the nineteenth century in Europe were localized. You know.
There was like the Franco Prussian War, it was the
Crimean War, but neither one of those, you know, really
were as impactful like outside of a theater level. And
there's the eighteen forty eight revolutions, but that that that
that was nothing like nineteen seventeen or like or like
seventeen eighty nine. You know. But in the case of Spain,
they they're they they came to civil war. Conditions were
emerging in eighteen twenty two, eighteen twenty three, and French
military intervention ended that eighteen twenty seven, there was the
Catalan insurrection. You know, in these and these and these
uh these uh these secession oriented you know, the political
movements on sundry in Spain like always had always had
traction in peculiar ways. Eighteen thirty three, eighteen forty it
was the first Carlist War, which was incredibly bloody, you know,
eighteen fifty nine, you know, the Moroccan orb independence pops
off eighteen seventy to eighteen seventy six, there's the Second
Carlist War. During this whole time, Spain was fighting in
in in the Americas, you know, because of these Hispanic
American colonial revolts, you know, eighteen sixty eighteen eighteen sixty
eight to eighteen seventy eight, there's the Ten Years War
in Cuba and the subsequently Spain literally fought America, you know,
I mean this, this is the uh, the degree, the
degree with in Spain and the Two Cuban and the
Two Cuban Wars lost over one hundred thousand kia. You know.
No European power absorbed that much military attrition. There were
loss as much territory and so rapid its time frame
as Spain did in the nineteenth century. You know. Uh,
I'd say what happened in Spain at reduced scale and
adjusting for strategic conditions of the of the of the
power political landscape, what happened in Spain was as catastrophic
as what happened to the Soviet Union? Are you believing
more so? That Spain was quite literally violently ripped apart,
you know, and it was this is how the this
is what gave birth to the Spanish Revolutionary Left. Okay,
the Spanish Revolutionary Left was always more savage, more sanguinary,
more aggressive, more unwilling to compromise than than anybody except
probably the Bolsheviks who succeeded them, and uh you know
in the Jacobans, who inspired every every radical tendency subsequent.
But in eighteen twenty one is kind of viewed as
the year that the Spanish revolutionary Left came about. What
they were, the big the kind of seminal moment in
uh in a subsequent to you know, ferinand and Isabella,
you know, creating the Spanish national state was the Constitution
of eighteen twelve. And I'm sure gonna butcher this pronunciation,
but these liberal reformers, like some of them are quite radical,
you know, who are most responsible for structuring and authoring
of that constitution or they were called Doquianistas or Dosinistas.
I don't know if it's a hard or soft seat,
but they were pretty pretty rapidly moderated after they got
their weight, and they tried to implement a parliamentarian structure,
you know, of true sort of power sharing arrangements at
interval that by which you know, due process would be
abided regardless of the outcome of parliamentary elections. Okay, this
is the last time any faction in the left ever
abided that. And by eighteen twenty one, the disinfection from within,
you know, essentially the young Turks who came known as
the Exaltados. Their whole notion was, look, you know that
the prize in political contest, you know, within the state
are the state itself. Okay, if you know, if if
we're gonna you know, if every if every three or
six or eight or ten years, you know, we're gonna
we're gonna briefly capture, you know, we're gonna really capture
you know, legislative majorities and things, you know, and then
just rush to you know, implement as much relief to
you know, to uh, to our class comrades as as
as as possible. But then immediately, you know, hand the
range of state over to our enemies and watch that
be undone. You know, we're that that's that's uh, that's
beyond a fool's Errand you know, it's it's some it's
a it's gonna and and it's it's beyond and even
pointless some you know, sort of acceptance of the status
quo because that like obviously over time that simply grinds down,
you know, the revolutionary uh impetus like in in the
minds of of anyone who participates in the system, because
you know, a definition the system exists and neutralized, you know,
not just like like like reformist tendencies, let let alone
revolutionary ones. Okay, So exultatos, we're now willing to surrender
the ground, you know, for the sake of due process
or or or constidential consent, power sharing or anything else. Okay.
And there's a very Schmidtian concept of state, you know,
and not and and that I mean and that that
that makes sense, okay for for all kinds of reasons.
But the uh, the main, the main characteristic of the
Iseltatos and what remained as kind of the core essence
of the French or at the front the Spanish radical
left subsequent was a total rejection and moderation and an
employment of violence not just to secure, uh, not just
to secure absolute you know, majoritarian consensus, but also to
enforce government policy once they accomplished or captured that consensus,
you know, and and and a view that it was
perfectly legitimate to enforce, not just enforce compliance you know,
through use of of of a violent terror apparatus, but
also to crush all all resistance and the president they
drew upon. You know, when when when these kinds of
more liberal minded moderates would say, look, you know, we
all want the same things. You know where you're you're
setting us back with these kinds of sanguinary longings. The
rebuttal was, look, you know that our president for this
is seventeen eighty nine. You know, and if you think
the Jacobins were, you know, we're willing to come to
the table with royalists and and and engage in horse trading.
You know, you're you're you're out of your mind or
you're a liar, you know, and within the bound rationality
they're objectives. They did have a point, you can't you
can't transpose, you can't transpose parliamentarism to uh a body
politic where there's no moral consensus. And uh, you can't
the entire theory of of progressive as government with a
capital P even that itself uh you know as uh
it's epistemic priors are basically that you know, in conditions
where that consensus didn't exist before it has been achieved.
You know, as a conditioned precedent of of uh you know,
of of of of of our program. Okay, so all
these things, it should become clear that kind of like
a perfect storm. I mean, I it sound corny, but
a perfect constellation maybe more properly of factors, uh, you
know many uh many owing to an escapable precedent that
set Spain on a uniquely kind of tragic course.
Speaker 1: But also you know, just after yeah, after that uh
technical difficulty.
Speaker 2: Uh, that's all good, it's uh, it's kind of nostalgic,
you know. But the But at the same time, mean,
no matter how much you exult the you know, the
the kind of law of the blade and the barrel
of a gun over you know, that of the per
real pen and paper of you know, money and and
buying your way to to you know, policy realization. No, no,
no matter how much you're enthralled the violence and coercion
as sort of the currency of of uh, of authority,
at some point that that that sort of runs its course,
you know, and and it develops, it develops a crisis
of legitimacy, you know, and then people just get sick
of it. And this is exactly what happened, and uh
the the again once again to the Exultatles were overthrown
by by the French army on uh W, which which
became you know, it's it's interesting because a peculiar kind
of a peculiar kind of uh interdependence developed, like like
these multiple French military interventions. You know, this wasn't this
wasn't like the vermach like assaulting the Soviet Union or
like the Soviet Union like you know, assaulting Poland or something.
I mean, yeah, there's always like the deserts, categorical hostility
like the jury in defecto when you're talking about you know,
armed men of you know, understatus of alienage, you know,
crossing a sovereign frontier. But after uh, after Waterloo, it
there they just became you know, like the one of
the checks on h on anarchy. As Spain you know,
kind of went through this painful nineteenth century was uh,
you know, a tolerance if not you know, out and
out acceptance of uh a French interventionism, uh you know,
beyond their their common border. When you know, things appear
to be careering towards open civil war, and I mean
that that's that's a tangent, but it is it is
interesting and it goes to show you that, uh, some
of the Westphalian paradigm, uh in condition to peace between
states is a myth like this idea that you know,
borders are rigid to the point that you know, we
can't even talk about you know, complex interdependence as having
any you know sort of sort of high high concern
and high politics. But to put this in perspective, like
a dear friend of ours who came to visit me
the other week, uh he uh, he was kind of
have to mail me Stanley G. Paynes, p A Y
N E. Like I guess like Max Pain for the
for the for the gamer bros on the But this
is a this is a very like storied book that
and and our friend like mailed it to me, which
is great. So I read it after I got back
from jail, and it's shocked full of facts and figures
and it basically deals with uh like the book itself,
it basically deals with, you know what, like the unraveling
of the Spanish Republic, you know, especially the especially the
critical months through nineteen thirty five and in nineteen thirty
six before I'm not at the point of the formal
onset of hostilities.
Speaker 1: But people are going to ask, people are going to
ask what the name of the book is.
Speaker 2: So oh it's uh the Collapse of the Spanish Republic. Yeah,
I'm sorry, by Stanley G. Payne again, p A Y
n E. It's got nothing to do with like Marky
Mark though, like in Max Pain, but that's like.
Speaker 1: I have like six books by him, so yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he he's written some great stuff. And like
I it's not I mean everybody, especially like all I
really do is is research, man, you know, like it's
not me like paying myself on the back about like
what a good boy I am or something, but even
somebody like me who's kind of stock in trade is
uh is academic research. There's there there are certain authors
that you're you know, you're going to rely on more
than others, and there's gonna be some that just aren't
really in your personal cannon. And like not only any
conceptual prejudice or something or judgment on quality, you know,
punitive or or praising. But for whatever reason, uh, Pain
never sort of entered into my personal canon. So uh again, uh,
dude knows who he is who sent us this book?
And that's awesome, and it's been a huge help for
one of the reasons why it's shocked full of of
data that you know, is not i mean not data
for data's sake, but you know, data of a material
of entering nature that helps put things into you know,
kind of high relief as regardless perspective and kind of
the sequences after from from the Napoleon occupation and or
Waterloo onward. They got the phases in in in modern
Spanish politics were you know, from eighteen to white to
eighteen fourteen, there was a there there there there was
a leftist regime in power, you know, And it's that
that that'd be worthy of an entire episode or a
couple of episodes, like what the relationship was of Napoleonism
to or Bonapartism to Jacobinism, and that's that, that's that's
that is a Gailian processes written all over it. But
make no mistake, uh, this this was this this this
wasn't Neo Jacobin regime at the reins during the occupation
again from eighteen twenty, eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty five
and thirty eight, eighteen fifty and fifty six, sixty eighteen
seventy three, nineteen seventeen, ninety twenty three, and then of
course in nineteen thirty one, ninety thirty nine. You know,
these were the the these are the these are the
phases of the or the or the electoral cycles or
constellation of cycles wherein the radical left essentially controlled the
entire national government. Okay, and again you know, as soon
as one as soon as as soon as one faction
would would lose to the other. You know, they have
every every everything there everything they're outgoing enemy had done
what was sabotage, you know, I mean, so it was
this it was just kind of like stalemate by design
and government, you know, and I mean that that's the
case of the center not being able to hold Also,
even uh if conditions aren't such that, you know, civil
war is uh inevitable. You're you're dealing event You're you're
dealing with the state that eventually is going to become
a failed state. Okay, the uh, the right wing control
of the regime, you know, whether it was you know,
whether whether it was you know, gonna get get conventional
Spanish nationalists, you know, like Carloss you know, uh, like
there's like various right wingers. You know, they're they're their
tenure or there. The other phases of of of government,
you know, dominance was uh, you know post Water eighteen fourteen,
eighteen twenty, eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty three, eighteen thirty nine,
eighteen fifty four, which is interesting because again staining an outlier.
You know, they avoided the eighteen forty eight revolutions because
you know, the right had the country locked down eighteen fifties,
eighteen fifty six to eighteen sixty eight, eighteen seventy four,
ninety seventeen, nineteen twenty three to ninety thirty one, and
of course nineteen thirty nine to nineteen seventy five. I
take some exception to that. I don't think we can
talk about the Franco regime after about nineteen fifty four
as being rightest. I just don't. Okay. Again, it was
in another example of Spain being a remarkable outlier. But
I accept what Pain is getting at. And again that
same paradigm was re emergent. Uh, it wasn't you know,
there was it wasn't bloody and uh and and who
almost apocalyptic like as is the case with the sales
are regime, you know which uh and Seals are the
fascinating guy, and you know, and the and the and
the the Portuguese were we're fighting alongside the Rhodesians against
the communists, you know, for for decades in Africa. You
know Ian Smith, who who is It's not like his
pros is particularly elegant or like edifying. And I'm not
saying that Ahead of State should bother with that. But
if people are looking for a book that provides that
sort of inspiration and kind of pleasurable reading, that's not
the book for you. But there's key insights into the
mind of Ian Smith. And Smith talks about sales Ar
is a truly great man. You know. He said, if
a Slider could have hung on, you know, for two
or three more years, we probably could have you know,
we probably could have smashed you know, like Zany upf
and you know, and and you know and and and
the proxies of the the wars off hects. But it's
it's uh, but again that you know, they're they're like
like Franco wasn't Salizar and Uh there was no Carnation
Revolution or whatever the uh the Progressive Uprising against Salazar
was branded. Memory fails me at the minute. I'm still
kind of shaken off the weekend. But I don't mean
I go was out like chasing skirt and like guzzling
Scotch or something. I mean like I got my ass
kicked this weekend and it hurt my brain. But the
uh another thing to consider too, you know, the uh,
the strong suit. I think inarguably in every other state
where you know radicals and or Bolsheviks and or you know,
ideological offshoots, you know, whether they were you know, left
wing syndical lists, you know, uh, anarcho syndical lists, like anarchists.
I mean, even among the anarchists, there was a kind
of rigid cadre structure whereby the inner discipline of the
party and it's cadres was what carried the day and
allowed them to allow you know, and carry them to victory.
In Spain, uh, the Spanish left, it was even more naked,
least sectarian personal like characterized by the faux messianic delusions
of of individual like players within it. You know, it
was it was pointlessly like inwardly directed, secretive like these
guys were constantly at war with each other. You know,
far far far more than in far more fractious than
the right wing was, you know. And that's the only
state like that. And that's not me saying like I mean,
the right wing is a lot more organic, okay, and
uh and that you know, and and and it's it
doesn't emerge. It didn't. It doesn't emerge from some you know,
from from a literal central committee. Okay. It's that there's
there's there's reasons of a structural and sociological and historical nature.
Like conventionally, you know, the modern uh radical left has
more internal discipline than the right. Okay. But that's why
it's so striking that in Spain like this was it
was literally the opposite, you know. And it also explains
why there this thing started when the Hrmacht intervened, you know,
invon Toma's u uh you know, counter legion and von
Tona's tanks and you know these uh and and he's
been and he stud like battlefield commanders, and Franco had
had a great eye for for like company level officers,
I don't know their equivalent to be in the Spanish
duvery of the day, but like like junior officers. So
you need you know, to be like platoon leaders and
company commanders like Franco and Franco's staff, like they knew
how to culture that kind of talent. Okay, So by
the time these pressures came to bear, like politically, like
the French left is like falling apart, you know, and
not even uh, not even you know, not even the
n k v D on the ground, not even dudes
like Eric Milk, like you know, just like whacking people
who just like you know, just cause like he was
probably an asshole anyway, and you know he his is
you know, he wasn't doing what he had to do too,
you know, sustain like internal discipline you know, within his
own chain of command and stuff like even with all
that like conventionally like almost comically it's not common when
they're talking about like extreme brutality, but that kind of
like you know, even even a kind of like ridiculous
level of like stalinists like you know, like compliance through
like massive brutal violence, like this is still couldn't even
like phase like this function of the process that they
just enumerated. And towards the end two you know, talking
about Spain being ironically you know, decades and in the
case of the Spanish mountern state emergence, you know, a
century you know, ahead of the rest of the continent.
The first uh, the first the first attempt to truly
organize like a trade like a trade union that you know,
with an eye for the ability to ultimately you know,
extoric concessions to general strike h that occurred as really
is the eighteen thirties, okay, like decades before the American
War between the States. You know, there's guys in Spain,
you know, who were talking like a narcocynic list and
like talking talking like Marcus Atlantis. You know, that's pretty
crazy and pretty remarkable, all right, especially again we consider that,
you know, it's I'm not like trading Spain like Spain.
Spain is fucking incredible. But you know, we're not talking
about like terrorists, and we're not talking about like Berlin,
and we're not talking about like London. You know, we're
talking about Spain. In some cases, you know, like very
provincial places in Spain that you know, not only weren't
known for their their kind of cosmopol and embrace of
exotic ideologies, you know, and things that just kind of
like tickle the fantasy of aristocrats just you know, thought
experiments that can be played out with real people. You know. Uh,
these guys were thinking and absolutely in like twentieth century terms,
but they were doing so a century early, you know,
and they were wing still I missed uh uh you
know a state that was that was still like you know,
almost entirely like a greery and in terms of its
local uh, his local economic output that, as Cyrus says
in The Warriors, is a miracle. But Giuseppe Finelle he
was an early uh figure of of of advance of
importance within uh the post Jacobin but pre Leninist left
and he arrived in Spain and in eighteen sixty eight
he'd been a great admirer of Bakunin. You know who
is Marx uh great opponent in the First International Josette
Finelle he were here out to Madrid without speaking any Spanish.
He basically had no money. But he said, look, and
and people like he was crazy, but he said, look,
he's like the idea as he called it, you know,
because guy, you know, uh, paris of thought. You know,
we'd call it the faith even though that's what it is.
It's an airs faith, he said, the idea, uh he said,
he said, look, this is the most fertile, like, this
is almost fertile ground. You know, we can find for
you know, for for Marxism on the content. Okay. Uh
there's literally no more like fertile proverbial fertile soil than
the Spanish body politic to embrace Marxism. Okay, and uh
he was right, Okay, rapidly Uh uh this got a
this this abundance of sex just popped up, you know,
like anarchists, libertarian, you know, anarcho cynic list, you know,
independent socialists, like every everything you can possibly think of. Okay,
and again that ultimately served like the like the the
inherent fractiousness and and sort of anarchic nature of that
political culture of uh the post Jacob and left in Spain.
I mean that cost him the war. And it's not
I I don't accept the kind of Thomas Pain idea
that like the more the more you hold an endless conversation,
you know, the more like marvelous things just kind of
like emerge out of motherfucker's mouths. But uh, but my
point is that there was a there was a remarkably
developed intellectual culture on the ground as regards politics and uh,
you know, political theory unless you're talking to the like,
unless you're really talking about like Straussian types are just
like you know, positing like you know, like values, claims
and and and trying to mind cloud from the fact that,
you know, they call themselves philosophers or something like. If
you're talking about if you're talking about polable theory, you're
talking about you know, you're you're talking about it imagining
the architecture of the state as an instrumentality of what
you want to accomplish, and you're imagining, you know, how
that can be structured in order to accomplish those objectives. Okay,
so it is essential to any revolutionary enterprise. Okay, Yeah,
there can be too many theorists and too few uh
you know, partisans. But the the converse is just as
self defeating. Okay, I'm sure there's those who are gonna
say that's like my egghead prejudice. It's not. It's not,
I don't it's but it's inarguable. Okay, it's not. It's
not something that it's not something that playable theory yeeks
just insist upon as as a cope or whatever. But
the uh, what did prevail initially in terms of the
dominant strain A bear in mind epistemic priors that informed
everyone in the radical left were one hundred percent Marxist
in nature. But the practical tendency, ideological tendency that became,
you know, most dominant, very rapidly, was we're things of
an anarchist nature, okay. And in the early days it
was the largest force within the urban working class of Spain.
Small that as it was, but again it was it
was the it was supposed to act as the vanguard. Okay,
it wasn't you know, a question of taking a head count.
And there's a lot of reasons why anarchism appealed so
much to this population, you know, a lot of which
we just got into. But also something that the left
in Spain realized very early on, was there, like, look, okay,
the structure of this state entails things, you know, like
the Roman church, you know, and uh entails things you
know like uh like chartered like chartered companies you know,
that are bound up with the private fortunes of aristocrats.
You know. The very architecture for the state is like
teams with teams with the hostility to our objectives. So
we've got to create parallel institutions. Okay, So we're gonna
have you know, like the workers Relieve organization. You know,
We're not We're not We're not gonna go to you know,
like the monastic order is to like help out widows
of like the men of ours who die. Okay, Like
you know, we're not We're not. We're not gonna We're not.
We're not gonna try and capture you know, the like
the local constables office and in Catalonia or whatever. You know,
Like we're gonna we're gonna maintain our own country discipline,
you know, and we're also going to like handle our
own like justice. You know, we're never going to rely
upon you know, the state or any of it's some
affiliated institutions and bureaucracies, you know, to guarantee as a
justice or anything else. And we started as we started death.
But that's the way it's going to be. And that
is something enduring too that basically everybody imitated, even even
even even the fascist and the National Socialist to some
degree imitated that, okay, because it's just in a in
a political warfare situation, especially during a long struggle, like
you you just have to do that, okay. And also
then you know you have you have new institutions and
being that you know, have never had sort of the
sovereign authority of the state behind them, but they have.
They have acted in authoritative capacities on matters of life
and death. And in some cases their existence is going
back decades. And you know, they had existed as you know,
floating like sovereigns and to themselves, you know, in the
fact that they commanded, you know, they commanded and controlled
you know, tens of thousands of men under arms. You know,
they had operational areas that constituted like you know, territory
they literally held. You know, at some point people are
talking symantics when they're like, oh, that's not really a government,
So what are you talking about? Why, you know what,
why would you even care about you know, why would
you gonna go to that trouble trying to replace the
you know, pre pre existing institutions of of of state.
Well that's that's why this shouldn't be It shouldn't be mysterious.
And finally, uh or I mean not relatively, It wasn't
just that the church and in Spain we can talk
about the Church, because I mean Spain, the Spanish are
Catholic people, you know it Uh, the uh, the Spanish
left view they view they viewed the church and they
viewed UH. Despite the fact that I mean that there's
a delicious irony to fern in Isabella, you know, basically
removing the mandate of U of the Holy See to
render a judgment on power political questions of war in peace.
Well at the same time you know, enforcing uh, you know,
the moral law according to the understanding of of uh,
the papacy in a way sight and scene probably for
five hundred years. And there's also there's also a uh,
there's also a real irony in guys, you know, like
waving a red banner as they charging the combat, you know,
demanding you know, social justice basically you know, assigning the
Marxist gobbledygook. They're basically saying, like, we're Catholic people, you
know who need you know, who need a Calolic church
to sort of act as an air mediory between us
and there would be class oppressors or aggressors, you know.
Yet we reject the Kalok Church and want to destroy it.
But again, the internal logic of it, of the enterprise.
That's what they would have had to do, Okay, and
that's one of the reasons people recognize us on some level,
even people who aren't, you know, ultra sophisticated. Now that
I'm so sophisticated, but I mean, do spend all day
like reading about this stuff. But you know, the uh,
it's it should uh it should become clear, you know,
at least in part why some of these so of
these peculiarities became you know, not just sort of you know,
quirkly identified with the Spanish modern state, but somehow inextricably
bound off with like it's it's it's it's you know,
and that's and that's about all I got for today. Man. Again,
I'm still kind of recovering from my from my my
vacation the Cook County, at the Cook County Resort and hotel.
But I thought it was important to cover because we're
gonna come back to a lot of these aspects and
I didn't want it to be I didn't want them
to be issues the first impression, you know, as they
kind of re emerged. But I promise when we record next,
we'll we'll get into you know, general Franco arriving back
from Morocco and you know kind of how battle resolved
between uh, you know, between the Nationalist element and UH
counter Legion and the Hermacht and and Thomas tanks, you know,
and the UH and and the Reds and and Republicans
all in Sundry. Does that sound good?
Speaker 1: Sounds great? Plug away?
Speaker 2: What? Yes, sir, I'm still playing catch up, but I'm
as I've disclosed the people, you know, the last few weeks,
me and my my crime partner Rake, where we're We're
We're trying at a feverish pace to get season two
of the podcast up and running, and I promise it
will be in the next few weeks, you know. In
the meantime, I'm gonna be uploading a lot of free stuff,
you know, to the sub stack, Like today, I just
uploaded an interview with a friend of mine, like, you know,
an older dude who uh who knew Jeff Ford and
he banged with the l Ruken here in Chicago. I'm
gonna be I'm gonna when I you know, I'm gonna
dropping a lot of that kind of stuff until we
kind of formally relaunched the brand. I've been doing. I've
been recording a lot with Nico Kloud, who's a fascinating guy,
an artist and a very controversial figure that's gonna he's
gonna feature heavily in season two. But you can find
the substick in the pod at real Thomas seven seven
seven that substick dot com. Uh. You can find me
on Twitter, but my tweets are protected. People tell me
Twitter is not censoring as aggressively as before, but I've
literally hit my accounts nuke so many times for you know,
and number once if I.
Speaker 1: I got suspended for twelve hours yesterday and they didn't
even tell me why.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean if there's just like crazy bullshit,
even when the commissars aren't, you know, like busily like
and excited, I mean, it's like it's like it's like
born to them or something to just like censor people,
I think, because they're fucking freaks. But a point being
like I do protect my tweets because I is to
be the only way to like not be fucking nuke them,
you know, just arbitrar early. But you can find you
can always find me in my website. It's just Thomas
seven seven seven dot com number seven eight twenty seven
seven seven dot com. That's where all my like fresh
stuff like appears. It's still like somewhat under construction, but
you can that will always be around. Okay. And as uh,
people keep asking about the channel content that is coming
to I haven't figured out exactly how I want to
integrate it with the pod. I want some I don't
want to just be like a mirror of the pod.
But with video, I mean, if people want sign some
people like that and they just like listening to stuff,
I like to see your YouTube, I'll do that, but
I do want some original video content. I don't want
primarily that the channel to be that like one thing
at a time. And I'm uh, I want to I'm yeah,
and it's but that's the basically where we're at. Okay,
and just keep uh, just keep your eyes peeled for
like fresh stuff because I'm gonna be uploading I'm gonna
be uploading a ton of like just free stuff like
it today every several days. And when when the season
two of the pod launches, all season one content is
going to become free immediately and it will be dope
like and when I say like rebranding, like we've got
the resources and and kind of the knowledge as well
as you know, sort of like the you know, a
higher profile in terms of people who are willing to
work with us, you know, like like Nego klout like yourself,
I'm not seeing you guys are like similar people and
understand okay, okay, but and uh and and people like
you know, my friend Big d you know, who drops
his system when you're honest about the old rouken But uh,
like we're popping quite splendidly, and and that that that's
you know a lot for other potentialities. So yeah, I
won't I won't hold up the recording anymore. Man. That's
that's all I got. Thank you so much. And thank
you again for like the trans love and concern for
me when you know I went dark and accounted being arrested,
Like I really mean that. I got huge love for
all of our friends a.
Speaker 1: Man, I appreciate it. Thank you,