WEBVTT 1 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:24.640 Hello, and welcome to Western SIEV. In today's Bonus Author Interview, 2 00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:30.160 I sit down with advocate, author and leader Maria Foscarinas, 3 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.280 and we're going to talk about an issue that you 4 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:36.840 hear in the news constantly, and it's the subject of 5 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:40.560 her most recent book, and Housing for All, the Fight 6 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:44.960 to End Homelessness in America. It's available right now, and 7 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:46.600 if you're interested in the book at the end of 8 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:49.200 this interview or right now, go ahead and click on 9 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:52.280 that link and you can get a copy immediately. It 10 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:56.479 is an exhaustive coverage on the history and policy aspects 11 00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:01.039 of this super complicated issue that I know faces us 12 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:04.680 all on a day to day basis. Now, you know, 13 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:10.439 we're all aware of the problems whether you live in Texas, Illinois, 14 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:16.200 New York, California, Alabama, that homelessness faces in the United 15 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:18.879 States of America. This is a salient issue and something 16 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:22.640 that touches all of us in one way, shape or form, 17 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:26.719 and so it's worth understanding it and understanding the complex 18 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:30.560 issues that regard it. I would love to tell you 19 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.000 that we come out of this conversation with a solution. 20 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:36.040 I mean, I have my own solution. It's just you know, 21 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:38.040 build housing. I've always said, you know, hey, if I'm 22 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:40.159 going to run for president, I'm going to have I'm 23 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:42.280 going to be the one issue president, you know, in 24 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:43.760 twenty twenty eight, and it's going to be We're just 25 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:46.079 going to build houses. We're going to build lots of 26 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:48.480 houses like we did in the late nineteen forties, early 27 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:50.920 nineteen fifties, and you know, hopefully everything else takes care 28 00:01:50.920 --> 00:01:52.719 of itself. But I'm going to build a ton of houses. 29 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:56.599 President House, you guys can call me whatever it takes, 30 00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:59.640 you know. But you know, assuming that I don't win 31 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.120 the next presidential election, which is extremely unlikely, let's take 32 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:06.879 another tact and try today to learn a little bit 33 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:10.199 more about this issue and about what we all can 34 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:14.120 do about it in order to make it so much 35 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:19.719 less powerful in society today. So with that being said, 36 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:45.120 after these short words, here's the interview. All right, welcome 37 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:48.360 back to the show. As I mentioned moments ago, I'm 38 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:53.039 sitting down with author and advocates Maria Foscarinas, and we're 39 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:55.759 going to be talking about her most recent book today 40 00:02:56.319 --> 00:03:01.120 and Housing for All, the fight to end homelessness in America. Well, 41 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.199 no matter where you live, if you live in the 42 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:09.280 United States. You are aware of the homeless crisis and 43 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.800 problems that face the United States, and so I think 44 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:16.520 this is a really poignant book that everyone should read 45 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:20.120 right now to get a deeper understanding of what is 46 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:25.080 really a complicated topic. But I wanted to start by 47 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:29.840 asking you, as the author of this book, why did 48 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:33.479 you write this book, but also not just why did 49 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:37.840 you write the book, why did you get involved intimately 50 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:41.520 in this particular issue. 51 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:48.800 So that's a great question, Adam. Thanks. I got involved 52 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:54.639 in this issue because I feel that it's enraging and 53 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:57.719 always has been enraging to me that there we can 54 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:00.759 live in a country with so much wealth and yet 55 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:06.199 there are people who have virtually nothing. Some people have way, 56 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:08.319 way more than they need, and then there are others 57 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:12.319 who don't have enough to survive. I think that is 58 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:16.639 horribly unfair and it makes me angry, and I got 59 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:20.560 involved because I wanted to do something about it. I 60 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:25.120 wrote the book after having spent over thirty five years 61 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:29.000 as an advocate working on homelessness at the national level, 62 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:34.360 and I really got involved at the moment where homelessness, 63 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:38.439 or close to the moment where homelessness became a national 64 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:44.160 crisis that was in the early nineteen eighties. Homelessness has 65 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:47.720 not always been a crisis at this scale, certainly in 66 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:51.639 our country, and I got involved just as it was 67 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:57.439 exploding and turning into a national crisis. And so I 68 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:02.360 feel like I've really seen the evolution of homelessness over 69 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:06.600 a long period of time. I've been involved in many 70 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:10.240 of the major battles to address it, and I have 71 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:14.680 a perspective that I've gained as a result of this work. 72 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.120 I wanted to share that. I also wanted to share 73 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:23.560 stories of the many, many people I've met on house, 74 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.639 people that I've met and worked with over the years, 75 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:30.639 and I shared just a few of them in the book. 76 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:34.839 But I wanted to do that because these are voices 77 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:40.319 and stories that need to be heard, and I try 78 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:42.720 to do them at least a little bit of justice 79 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:44.399 through the book. 80 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:47.439 Well, you brought up something there that I wanted to 81 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.639 maybe ask a little bit a follow up question on, 82 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:55.439 and that is this idea of this incredible, incredible wealth 83 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:58.839 disparity that we have, you know, both in the world 84 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:03.040 and in particular are in the United States right now. 85 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:06.399 I think most listeners of the show today will be 86 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:10.360 intimately aware that the name of the wealthiest man in 87 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:12.959 the world right now is Elon Mosque, as he happens 88 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:17.959 to be right now pretty heavily and consistently in the news. 89 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:21.120 And you know, sometimes I think about, you know, historical 90 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:25.560 parallels and times that come before, and oftentimes I see 91 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:28.639 a lot of the guilded Age in where we are 92 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:30.839 right now, and the ideas of the Gospel of wealth 93 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:32.879 and the accumulation of all these things. But of course 94 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:36.279 the guilded Age is followed by the Progressive era for 95 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:39.120 those who don't know the American history, which is an 96 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:41.720 effort to sort of curb some of the abuses on there. 97 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:45.639 Since you study this issue so much, in this question 98 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:47.720 of wealth disparity, I thought i'd ask you, do you 99 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:50.879 have any opinions as to where we are in a 100 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:54.839 society right now when it comes to this issue of 101 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:58.079 wealth disparity. I wonder if we're sort of getting to 102 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:00.439 the point where people are fed up off that we 103 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:03.600 might start to actually do something about this issue. I 104 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:08.040 see rhymes of that right now happening in society. But 105 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:10.920 what do you think, Because it occurs to me that 106 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:14.480 it's really hard to address firmly this issue of homelessness 107 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:18.920 and houselessness without addressing the underlying cause of wealth disparity. 108 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:25.199 Right. I think that's exactly right. And right now we're 109 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:29.360 at a point of extreme inequality in this country and 110 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:34.279 maybe globally, but certainly in this country, we're at that point. 111 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:39.120 And you know, I think people are seeing that and 112 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:43.160 experiencing that, and that's a source of anger for many people. 113 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:46.560 There's a large number, a huge percentage of people who 114 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:51.360 are literally living paycheck to paycheck, and that's you know, 115 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:55.519 that's a real point of connection if people pause to 116 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.040 think about it, to people who are at this extreme 117 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:03.160 end of that equality. I see homelessness as the extreme 118 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:08.759 end of income and wealth inequality in this country. It's 119 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:15.519 a continuum. It's not like homelessness is something special or unique. 120 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:19.319 It's the extreme end of what is affecting very many people. 121 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:23.639 And you know, I think that does create a potential 122 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:27.920 for change. And we see the anger in a lot 123 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:31.040 of people who feel like they're cut out, out, left 124 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:37.159 out of American society. And you know, that anger maybe 125 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:45.159 driving the phenomena of our current political climate of Trump 126 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:50.519 and you know, you mentioned musk that can be directed 127 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:54.600 in a different way, if people have a greater understanding 128 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:58.519 of why people are poor, why people are homeless, what 129 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:02.559 is actually driving inequality? There are people who are making 130 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:05.039 a lot of money and have a lot of wealth, 131 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:09.200 and of course that's the definition of inequality, but why 132 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:12.080 is that? So? Why do we allow this? What kind 133 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:15.320 of society do we really want to live in? Do 134 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:19.120 we really want to be part of a society where 135 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:22.960 it's okay for some people to have extreme wealth and 136 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:27.440 others not to have enough to survive, and many many 137 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:31.879 others to be struggling and wondering if they're going to 138 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.480 be without a roof over their heads soon, if they 139 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.519 have one emergency that they can afford. So I think 140 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:44.320 it does raise these larger questions, and I hope that 141 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:50.639 your historical analogy proves to be correct, that this will 142 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:58.440 drive people to a more progressive error different It's certainly 143 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:01.440 not going to happen by itself. So it takes activism, 144 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:06.440 and it takes understanding, and it takes building coalitions and 145 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:13.279 having also a vision of a different way to be well. 146 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:15.639 It's very true. I think we sometimes we see historical 147 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:19.399 eras as sort of inevitabilities, which they look like in hindsight, 148 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:22.360 but in reality that's not true. It takes a lot 149 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:25.000 of internal pushing in a lot of times. It's you know, 150 00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:27.480 it's the analogy I like to use is, you know 151 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:30.440 that the stone cutter who has been working on a 152 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:33.120 particular stone for days and days and days on and 153 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:35.399 in a passerby happens to come at the moment that 154 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:38.679 he breaks it in half and commised himself, well but 155 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:41.120 a mighty but a mighty stone cutter. That is, with 156 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:43.919 one blow he felled that stone. And that's not true. 157 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:46.240 They just didn't see all of the things that came 158 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.200 before that. But one of the things that I thought 159 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:51.360 was really powerful about the book, and I wanted to 160 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:52.960 ask you about at least one or two of them, 161 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:58.039 are the real life examples. And in particular, I wonder 162 00:10:58.039 --> 00:10:59.679 if you could tell us one or two real life 163 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:03.440 examples of homelessness and not only the people that involves, 164 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:05.679 but the trade offs that they have to make, because 165 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:08.879 that's really what struck me was this was that these 166 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:13.120 were people who were having to make what were unfortunately 167 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:16.600 rational decisions that were the lesser of two evils that 168 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:19.039 resulted in them perhaps not having a place to stay 169 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:20.919 for that night. But if you back up and you 170 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:23.120 look at it, you would say, well, that's actually the 171 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:27.000 logical decision that they made in that circumstance. That's not everyone, 172 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:29.159 but I think that that's some people. So if you could, 173 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:30.279 if you could tell us some one of those stories, 174 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:31.960 I think it would illuminate this issue a lot. 175 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:40.759 Sure, So I can so once particular story comes to mind, 176 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:46.000 it really stayed with me. There are many, but I'll 177 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:50.440 tell one and maybe add another. So the one story 178 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:58.159 is that of Danny, who is a man who's a 179 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:04.039 native Denver, right, living in Denver, Colorado, and he became 180 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:10.080 homeless when he his parents died. He'd been living with 181 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:14.480 his parents after his divorce, and he needed a place 182 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:17.639 to stay. He moved. He had had his own home, 183 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:24.120 but then he divorced and and lost that, moved in 184 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:27.519 with his parents. His parents died, his name wasn't on 185 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:31.080 the lease, and so suddenly he was without any place 186 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:37.039 to stay. He was working. His work was an overnight 187 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:47.000 shift stocking shelves in a convenience store. He couldn't go 188 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:50.440 to a shelter. First of all, there were off and 189 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:53.720 the shelters were full. But even when they weren't full 190 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:57.960 they had curfeused. He had to be in by a 191 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.080 certain time and that would have and he couldn't keep 192 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:05.679 his job, so he had he made a choice to 193 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:11.960 keep a job and live under a tarp outside. And 194 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:15.480 of course Denver gets very cold during the winter, and 195 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:18.120 he was under his tarp and times when it was 196 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:23.360 freezing and snowing, and he was there and he started 197 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:28.919 experiencing pain in his limbs. He knew the dangers of frostbite, 198 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:32.879 and he went to try to get medical help, but 199 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:38.639 each time was sent away with painkillers. Eventually he had 200 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:43.039 to have his one of his legs, his right leg 201 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:47.559 amputated below the knee, and lost all five toes on 202 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:54.279 his other foot remaining foot. So this is horrible story. 203 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:59.879 I know about this story thanks to advocates who were 204 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:05.120 were working with him and who actually went with him 205 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:09.519 to the hospital when he had the amputation and had 206 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:14.639 him and were able to film him. He wanted to 207 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:18.120 tell the story. He wanted to have this publicized, and 208 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:22.279 it was on local TV. He was very very clear 209 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.360 about what he needed and about how to solve homelessness, 210 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:31.960 and his answer was housing. There just wasn't housing, you know. 211 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:35.480 I talked about shelter, but we know shelter is not 212 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:40.159 the solution. Shelter is also not available. It wasn't available 213 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:44.320 to Danny in a either just as a matter of 214 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:48.559 numbers or and certainly not a number as a matter 215 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:53.679 of actual availability to him. Shelter is not available around 216 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:58.480 the country and the numbers needed. So this is clear. 217 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:01.399 This is an unders muted fact that there are not 218 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.639 enough shelter beds even to meet the need. And also, 219 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:09.080 no one working on this issue thinks shelter is a solution. 220 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:13.799 Housing is. But that story really stuck with me because 221 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:19.440 it just it was so dramatic, and yet it's not 222 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:25.720 at all unusual this, I mean, amputations happened regularly. Death 223 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:31.639 people die because they're living outside. So that's one of 224 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:36.159 the stories of the cost of allowing people to be 225 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:37.480 homeless in this country. 226 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:41.000 Yeah, and I think we can get more into the 227 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.639 policy in a moment. But I think what's why I 228 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:47.559 thought that story was so interesting and why listeners should 229 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:52.960 hear it is because he was working. This was someone 230 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.399 who had a position. It just so happens that his 231 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:00.159 position it didn't allow him to earn enough money to 232 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:04.320 get into a housing situation, and he would have to 233 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.320 choose either to keep his position, which was an overnight position, 234 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:10.600 or give up or get a space in the shelter. 235 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:15.120 It's not both, and so he made a choice, and 236 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:20.519 that choice to keep his job is perfectly rational from 237 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.879 every perspective. It's just because of how we set up 238 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:29.720 the rules of this game that he wound up losing 239 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:34.440 his limbs. And hopefully that's not what anybody intended. Now, 240 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:36.279 one of the things that I wanted to ask you about, 241 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:38.480 and you kind of started to hint about it in 242 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:41.720 the introduction. You're right, and I'm quoting the book now. 243 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:46.320 It's a quote housing was increasingly treated as a commodity 244 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:52.080 for investment, not a place to live. And I think 245 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:56.360 that's probably not how many of us think about housing, 246 00:16:56.440 --> 00:16:59.279 but it's very accurate. And so I wonder if you 247 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.279 could explain it exactly what you mean by that, and 248 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:05.640 then also walk us through a little bit how did 249 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:09.759 that happen, because I have to imagine historically that hasn't 250 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:11.119 always been the case. 251 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:16.720 Right, So historically it has not always been the case, 252 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:23.880 but it how it happened was over a period of time, 253 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:34.240 housing was increasingly and mortgage lending were increasingly deregulated, and 254 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:42.160 they were increasingly invested in so their financial vehicles that 255 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:49.359 people trade in now that are based on housing mortgages 256 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:56.000 get sold, they get sliced into pieces, they get bought 257 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:01.880 by investors, they get traded, converted into instruments that get 258 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:06.359 traded on the stock market. So that's a sort of 259 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:10.000 a first step. But then later, especially in the wake 260 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:16.200 of the foreclosure crisis in two thousand and eight. Around 261 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:19.680 that time, when a lot of people lost their homes 262 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:26.839 and a lot of properties went into foreclosure, that's when 263 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:31.640 investors really swooped in and bought them up and converted 264 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:37.400 them into properties for profit essentially. So this is very 265 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:40.960 different than you know, a person or a kind of 266 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.359 mom and pop landlord who owns a property and rents 267 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:48.880 it out, or somebody who buys a property and holds 268 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:53.200 onto it as a kind of equity. These are investors 269 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.799 whose purpose is to make a profit. We've heard about 270 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:03.279 private equity. Well, private equity entered the residential housing market 271 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.920 in a big way starting around then with the foreclosure crisis, 272 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:16.759 and so now and they're also building properties precisely for 273 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:20.960 the purpose of renting them for profit. And when you 274 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.359 think start thinking of housing that way and treating it 275 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:28.839 that way, then it's you know, someone is a day 276 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:33.440 late on rent and they're out, and you know, if 277 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:36.680 you can raise the rent, you do. You squeeze it 278 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.319 as much as you can. And so when housing is 279 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:43.400 treated that way, they are going to be people who 280 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.279 are left out. If the sole criterion about for housing 281 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:52.559 is profit, you're not going to be concerned about ensuring 282 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.960 that everybody has an affordable place to live. So that's 283 00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:01.559 what you know. The term commodification of housing means that 284 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:05.160 housing is treated like an investment vehicle and as a 285 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:09.200 vehicle for profit, not as something that meets a basic 286 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:13.559 human need. The counter the contrast to this is thinking 287 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:18.480 of housing as a social good, something that everybody needs. 288 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.720 Everybody needs a safe, decent place to live, and just 289 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.440 like everybody needs water or air, you know, these are 290 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.880 put these could be treated as public goods, and the 291 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:34.400 way to do that is invest in them. There used 292 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:40.480 to be there there's a concept called social housing where 293 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.119 housing is treated as a social good, but it's invested 294 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:50.599 in by government. Government funding helps to make it affordable 295 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:55.160 for everybody so that everybody can actually have access to it, 296 00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:59.279 so it doesn't become this game of musical chairs where 297 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:02.079 you know, some people get it and other people are 298 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:08.720 left without. So that's that's the contrast between treating housing 299 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:11.160 as a commodity and as a social good. 300 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:33.279 Yeah, I want to ask a follow up question on 301 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.920 that really quickly, because it seems to me sometimes that 302 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:40.319 where we get hung up on this issue and other 303 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:44.759 issues in American politics, and I suppose probably worldwide, is 304 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:46.240 this question of and I'm going to put this in 305 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:48.240 air quotes right now, which is morality? 306 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:48.960 Right? 307 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:52.400 I always talk about morality versus efficacy, you know, like 308 00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:55.680 and by morality, I mean you could make you could 309 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.039 use the following sentence, such and such person needs to 310 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.720 earn housing, right, they don't deserve it yet they haven't 311 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:08.400 shown that they get it. That to me seems incredibly 312 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:13.599 problematic in this specific context. Whereas if we approach it 313 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:17.279 from a simple efficacy standpoint, which is, well, what makes 314 00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:21.119 society better and the answer seems to me to be 315 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:26.119 fairly obvious housing. If people are in housing, then society 316 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.160 will get stronger because we're helping those individuals. Did they 317 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:31.680 need help to get there? Yes? Did they quote unquote 318 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:36.000 deserve that? Did they do something to earn it. I 319 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.839 don't know, maybe, but to me it seems like we 320 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:42.400 should be focusing more on the efficacy of solving the 321 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.240 problem versus the morality of whether or not someone deserves something. 322 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:46.880 I don't know, what do you think about that? 323 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:50.599 Well, that's a very interesting distinction, and I think it's 324 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:54.960 a good one. But I think the morality issue is 325 00:22:56.440 --> 00:23:04.359 really points to another important issue, which is that how 326 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.359 did how about how we got to this place? There 327 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:14.400 has been a narrative that some people deserve help and 328 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:18.759 others don't. There's been a narrative that started at this 329 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:22.119 at the same time that homelessness exploded. There was this 330 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:26.200 public narrative put forth at the time by President Reagan 331 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:30.960 that homelessness is a choice. People choose to be homeless, 332 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:35.400 and that's really I think related to this point that 333 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:39.960 you're making about morality. So if people are choosing to 334 00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:45.200 be homeless, it's somehow their fault, and if they lose 335 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:49.720 their limbs or if they can't have to sleep outside, 336 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:54.880 that's their problem, it's not our collective problem. And that 337 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:59.359 is a narrative that has started then but has really 338 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:04.799 seeped in in to a lot of public policy discussion. 339 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:10.119 About homelessness, and it's not It's been adopted by Democrats 340 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:14.359 and Republicans alike. Think about you know, President Clinton and 341 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:20.319 his eliminating welfare as we know it and the welfare 342 00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:23.880 queens stereotype that went along with that. I mean, these 343 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:27.960 narratives drive policy, and they sustain it, they support it, 344 00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:32.880 they make you know, they make it easier to enact 345 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:37.200 these kinds of policies. So I think that that's you know, 346 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:42.960 the idea that housing and when people need government investment 347 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:48.279 to make housing affordable, that somehow there's something wrong with them. 348 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.680 That's a very dangerous way to think about this issue, 349 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:54.480 and it's we don't have to think of it if 350 00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:59.599 that way we could be thinking about it in a 351 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:02.960 way it says, well, this is something we all need. 352 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:08.240 We all need housing, and why is it that somebody 353 00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:14.279 could be working and not be able to afford it? Well, why, 354 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:18.759 you know, the minimum wage hasn't been raised for over 355 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:22.240 a decade, you know, I mean these I think we 356 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:26.920 can look more deeply into this and ask why, And 357 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:32.920 that's a question of basic fairness. So, yes, efficacy, we 358 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:35.480 can solve a problem, but we can also think about 359 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:39.079 what kind of society we want to live in a home? 360 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:44.240 Is something essential. Without housing, you really can't do other 361 00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:50.400 basic things in life that everybody should and wants to 362 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:52.799 be able to do. You know, it's hard to go 363 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:55.039 to school, it's hard to keep a job, it's hard 364 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:58.039 to raise a family if you don't have a stable 365 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:01.759 place to live. Isn't this something that we as a 366 00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:06.880 society can get behind, that everybody should have a stable, 367 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:10.079 decent place to live. I think we can. But we 368 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.400 have to think about this a little bit more deeply 369 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:13.880 and ask these questions. 370 00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.319 Yeah, and maybe it's something that we used to think 371 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:20.920 more about. I'm thinking about, you know, President Johnson and 372 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:24.759 his great society efforts, you know, in the nineteen sixties, 373 00:26:24.759 --> 00:26:26.759 and that might be something that we go back to. 374 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:30.000 But I'm glad you brought up the nineteen eighties because 375 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:32.000 I wanted to read a section from the book. And 376 00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:35.000 this is in chapter one, by the way, so and 377 00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:36.279 this is it can be a little bit longer of 378 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:38.359 a quote with the dove's tales into a question here, 379 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:40.640 so just picking it up here, it says quote, by 380 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:44.240 the early nineteen eighties, homelessness was dramatically growing, while the 381 00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:47.400 estimated number of homeless people was and still is a 382 00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:50.319 matter of heated debate. Most everyone agreed that whatever the 383 00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:53.880 number was, it was rapidly going up. Many experts believed 384 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:56.400 that more people were homeless in the nineteen eighties than 385 00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:00.559 at any time since the Great Depression. Annual surveys initiated 386 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:02.880 in nineteen eighty four by the US Conference of Mayors, 387 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:07.160 a group representing big city mayors, documented a soaring demand 388 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:10.839 for emergency shelter in major metropolitan areas around the country, 389 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.400 coupled with an inability of local authorities and private charities 390 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.960 to meet it. The populations affected by homelessness were also 391 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:23.079 quickly changing. Families with children became the fastest growing group. 392 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:28.160 Homelessness among racial and ethnic minorities also grew, forming a 393 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:32.480 disproportionate percentage relative to their representation in both the population 394 00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:37.599 at large and stable were housed. Low income individuals, in particular, 395 00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:42.440 younger working men and women were affected as well. End quote. 396 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.119 I really have to ask why was it in the 397 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:52.200 nineteen eighties that homelessness exploded so much? What was the 398 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:55.160 factor here where we're dealing with economic downturn, or was 399 00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:59.480 this a deliberate public policy change that affected the situation. 400 00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:05.839 So some of both, but the driving point is the 401 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:11.599