WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:05.839 My other favorite Churchill story is when his great granddaughter, 2 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:08.560 I think granddaughter ran into the room. This is off 3 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:10.519 to the war, and he's sitting writing his memoirs and 4 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:12.359 she runs into You may know this. She runs into 5 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:15.759 the room and she sees him sitting there, and she's gosped. 6 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:17.679 She stops, shees, She goes. 7 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:22.760 Great Granddad, is it true that you're the greatest man 8 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:25.760 in the world? And he says, yes, Now fuck off. 9 00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:33.520 Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask 10 00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:38.600 what you can do for your country. Mister gorbachav tear 11 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:44.159 down this wall. It's the Ricochet podcast number seven hundred 12 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:47.240 and forty one. James Lilax is off today, but I 13 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:50.439 am joined by Peter Robinson and Charles C. W. Cook 14 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:54.600 and our special guest, Christopher Scalia. Let's have ourselves a podcast. 15 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:58.960 The gleaming marvels of Ria and Abu Dhabi were not 16 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:02.560 created by the show called nation builders, neo cons or 17 00:01:02.920 --> 00:01:07.319 liberal nonprofits like those who spent trillions and trillions of 18 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:12.120 dollars failing. Instead, the birth of a modern Middle East 19 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.680 has been brought by the people of the region themselves, 20 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:17.680 the people that are right here, the people that have 21 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:19.000 lived here all their lives. 22 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:24.000 Welcome everybody to episode seven forty one of the Ricochet podcast. 23 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:27.319 James is off today I'll be your host, Steve Hayward, 24 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:30.640 joined us always by Charles C. W. Cook, and today 25 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:34.040 a stranger is filling the third slot. It's a guy 26 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:37.840 named Peter Robinson. Hi, Peter, how are you? Hi? 27 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:42.120 Steve? I barely remember myself right what? We've got a 28 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:42.599 lot to do in. 29 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:45.560 Our special guest today will be Christopher Scalia with a 30 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:49.000 terrific new book on novels that we've been neglecting. But 31 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:52.599 before we get to Christopher, quickly, Peter, and I mean 32 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:54.560 very quickly, because this could be the whole show. But 33 00:01:54.799 --> 00:02:00.840 give me your just initial impressions of the new Pope. 34 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:04.920 The Pope I listen, I mean I like him. Yeah, yeah, No, 35 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:06.719 I do too. I'm just trying to explain that I 36 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:10.919 feel myself in the position of a dog rescued from 37 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:14.919 the pound that was grievously beaten by its former owner. 38 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:18.599 It is going to be a while before I unclench 39 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.879 and give my full trust to a new master. That's 40 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:24.560 the kind of beaten dog I am. After twelve years 41 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:27.680 of Pope Francis, now, I'm sure there will be some. 42 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:30.159 And I speak of him with respect because he is 43 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:37.360 the pope, was the pope. And however, Pope Leo is just. 44 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:41.919 He seems to be a man of good sense, well spoken, 45 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:45.639 loves the church, and loves the church in every particular 46 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:50.400 of its history. So he speaks beautiful Latin, he sings 47 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:54.400 the Regina Shelley in front of the Every bit of 48 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:59.360 this is just a relief and an inspiration to a 49 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:02.199 Catholic such me. So I truly I love the man. 50 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:05.960 I love the man right down to his brothers, who 51 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:11.240 are moordinary Americans, just right, the sense of normalcy. Now, 52 00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:13.199 of course, the left will be outraged because one of 53 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:16.319 the brothers is pro Trump. I remind the left that 54 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:18.680 Trump won the popular vote last time. You can be 55 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:21.840 a normal American and pro Trump. Just the sense of 56 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:26.439 a kind of normal love of the church, love of country, 57 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.599 love of this country. Not however, that he hasn't dedicated 58 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:32.120 almost all his life to the poor in Peru. But 59 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:34.520 I so far I love him. I find myself my 60 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:35.560 heart going out to him. 61 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:38.479 Right. All right, Well, let's go from the sacred to 62 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:42.080 the mundane. I'll put it that way. Charles, I got 63 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:44.319 up early yesterday out here on the left coast to 64 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:48.520 listen to the oral argument in the Supreme Court. Yeah, wow, 65 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:52.560 the birthright citizenship. Although really the case is about whether 66 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:55.680 district courts can do these nationwide injunctions. So I listened 67 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:57.360 to the whole thing and have my thoughts. But did 68 00:03:57.400 --> 00:03:59.439 you get a chance to listen or review at Charles? 69 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:00.719 I did? 70 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:03.039 I have thoughts on both of those? Which do you 71 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:07.759 want either describe it whoever you like? 72 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:13.319 Charles? Is this wonderful intellectual constitutionalist's jukebox you put in 73 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:18.240 a quarter rights your button? Go ahead, right? 74 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:19.879 Well? 75 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:25.480 I wish that this case was not also about national injunctions, 76 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:27.399 because I think they'd be a better vehicle for that, 77 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:29.639 and also it may get in the way of the 78 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:35.199 on the merits decision. I have very complicated thoughts about 79 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:38.639 national induction, Steve. I think that ultimately the problem we 80 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:41.959 have with judges who come in and usurp the role 81 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.160 of the other branches is that the judges are hacks, 82 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:47.399 not that national injunctions exist, because there are many circumstances 83 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:49.399 in which it makes sense to have national injunctions. 84 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:50.759 I think the problem is we have a lot of 85 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:52.839 bad judges on the. 86 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:58.240 Question of birthright citizenship. It's funny. I think Trump will 87 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:04.399 lose this if it's decided. I am less persuaded than 88 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:08.519 I was that it is easy. I thought last year 89 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:09.519 i'd say. 90 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:11.639 Well, yes, that's a profound point. 91 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:17.079 Actually, yeah, one kim ark is settled law. The originalist 92 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:23.759 meaning is obvious. I still think that's probably true on balance. 93 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:26.959 I certainly think that there would be five votes for 94 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:30.279 that position, three of the Democrat appointed judges, and then 95 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:36.279 probably Robertson Kavanaugh on precedent inertia grounds. But I am 96 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:39.959 less sure than I was. I haven't got to that 97 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:41.920 because of yesterday's or all arguments. I've got to that 98 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:45.000 slowly over time. Randy Mannett raised some questions for me. 99 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:47.680 Ilan Werman raised some questions for me. I read a 100 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:50.319 few of the Amikast briefs. I've read some other people 101 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:54.360 I respect who have sown doubt in my mind. So 102 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:57.120 this one, actually, I think is more difficult than I 103 00:05:57.160 --> 00:05:58.199 had thought it was. 104 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:01.519 You no, My impression it was that they're going to 105 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:05.240 pun completely on the birthright citizenship issue, because it seemed 106 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:08.079 like about ninety five percent rough estimate of the argument 107 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:13.519 was really concentrated on the nationwide injunction question. And I 108 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:17.879 thought Justice Kagan gave away the whole game when she said, 109 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:20.279 with some indignance in the way she put the question 110 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:24.759 to one of the Trump attorneys Justice Department attorneys, I 111 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:28.800 can't believe you're bringing this case to us. And the 112 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:33.040 subtext was you're trying to sheehorn in birthright citizenship on 113 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.000 something that even I admit it's problematic, which is district 114 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:39.680 judges giving nationwide injunctions. And then the second thing was 115 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:42.600 the other thing of the weakness of I think the 116 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.160 Democratic justices, it's clear they hate what's going on on 117 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:50.040 both levels. I think they like activist judges doing nationwide injunctions. 118 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:55.079 But the Trump administration plan or initial argument was, well, look, 119 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:57.279 the decision should be bound to just the parties of 120 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:00.160 the case, which was you know Lincoln's view about dred Scott, 121 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:03.480 by the way, so not a novel or exotic position, correct, 122 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:07.399 And the Trump attorneys responded sensibly, well, look, you could 123 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:10.959 have a class action suit brought to federal district court 124 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:14.199 and that could give a broader injunction to a whole 125 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:16.959 class of people. And then there were but then the 126 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:20.240 comeback from the liberal justices was, well, what if the 127 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:23.720 class isn't certified, are you really telling me you'd have 128 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:26.079 to go one person at a time through the federal 129 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:29.959 courts to vindicate their citizenship or vindicate their eligibility for 130 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:33.600 benefits and other rights that come from citizenship. And so 131 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:35.839 you could tell that. I think that there's and I 132 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:40.360 think even Keigan's probably thinks that nationwide adjunctions are problematic 133 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:42.519 at the very least. But it was clear that he 134 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:45.120 really hates it that it's tied up with the birthright 135 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:46.240 citizenship issue. 136 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:50.560 We have a guest joining us soon, so but may 137 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:52.680 I ask a question of both of you. I did 138 00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:55.240 not listen to all the oral arguments, and I certainly 139 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.040 didn't read any of the meek as briefs the way 140 00:07:57.120 --> 00:07:59.839 Charlie did. But I listened to bits and pieces of 141 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:03.800 it as it floated through my feed yesterday. And here's 142 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:07.879 my question on national injunctions. I try to put myself 143 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:15.800 in the mind of John Roberts, Chief Justice John Roberts. Oh, 144 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:18.000 and we've seen over and over again, and I think 145 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:21.000 it's true of him. By the way, just full disclosure, 146 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:23.560 I've known the man for forty years. We worked together 147 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:26.000 in the Reagan white House's young men, and I like 148 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:29.040 him a lot, which is not to say that I 149 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:32.600 get my head around all of his jurisprudence. However, he 150 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:37.279 really is an institutionalist there. He really does take seriously 151 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.120 holding it all together. And now we come with an argument. 152 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:47.679 And the argument really it's interesting for Justice Thomas and 153 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:51.000 Justice Alito as well, because it's not a question where 154 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:54.960 how do you apply original meaning to the question of 155 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:58.320 national injunctions. You've got six more than six hundred district 156 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:02.480 court judges who have the power to impose national injunctions. 157 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:06.559 Every single one of them is simply a judge who 158 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:09.879 has the ability to stand up to the President of 159 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.159 the United States, elected by the entire country, and in 160 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:16.600 many circumstances, to the Congress of the United States, to 161 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:21.840 defy on his own bat Article one an Article two 162 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:25.960 of the Constitution. And it doesn't work. It's almost a 163 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:33.720 purely institutional argument. The situation is untenable. Now, mister Chief Justice, 164 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:34.639 what do you do with it? 165 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:38.919 Yeah, that's a good question. You know what I want 166 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:41.879 to do, Peter, I actually want to pose that question 167 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:44.799 to our guest, who is ready to join us in 168 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:47.919 a moment he may not want the question, and you'll 169 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:49.200 see why. I want to tell you who it is. 170 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:53.440 Our guest is here. It is Christopher Scalia, a senior 171 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.759 fellow in the Social Cultural and Constitutional Studies at the 172 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:01.159 American Enterprise Institute, formerly a professor of English at the 173 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:04.000 University of Virginia's College at WISE, and he has a 174 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:06.639 brand new book out that he's here to talk about. 175 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:10.720 But Chris, you'll get used to a book tour interviews 176 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:12.879 where the interviewer wants to ask you about something aside 177 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:14.759 from your book. But I promise we will do the book. 178 00:10:14.919 --> 00:10:19.279 The book is called Thirteen Novels Conservatives will love but 179 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:23.399 probably haven't read. It's going to be out here next week. Chris, welcome, 180 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:26.000 glad to have you. I've been waiting with great anticipation 181 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:26.679 for this book. 182 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:29.720 Thank you, guys. It's great to be back on the 183 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:32.120 podcast and I'm looking forward to talking to you all. 184 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.200 Yeah. Okay, well just briefly. I mean, because I think listeners, 185 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:37.039 because of who you are in your name, they're going 186 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:39.879 to know if you have an opinion about the Supreme 187 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:42.960 Court argument this week on injunctions and birthright citizenship. And 188 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:45.200 if you don't, that's fine because you are a professor 189 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:47.399 of English and not of the law. But since we 190 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:48.799 have you, I have to ask. 191 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:53.440 I admit I have not been following it very closely 192 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:58.960 because I've been preoccupied with book obligations and opportunities. So 193 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:02.399 it's obviously an important issue, and I agree with the 194 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:07.559 general conservative consensus that these universal injunctions are becoming a 195 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:11.200 serious problem and we need to figure out what the 196 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:13.759 hell is going on with them, as President Trump would say, 197 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.639 and they do seem novel. So my own uneducated opinion 198 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:22.279 on the matter is that the judges making these injunctions, 199 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:25.799 handing down these injunctions are overstepping their bounds. But I 200 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.519 don't have a ton of confidence in that opinion, And 201 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:31.000 based on a little bit I heard about of the 202 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:34.159 arguments yesterday, I really don't know what's going to happen 203 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:37.840 with the birthright citizenship decision. But obviously I'm not certain, 204 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:41.279 and you can't tell for sure from oral arguments, but 205 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:44.519 it does look like the administration has an uphill battle there. 206 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:47.480 Enough of this, Christopher Scullia, I have known you since 207 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:51.120 you were a pipsqueak. Now Here you come, now here 208 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:57.360 you come, all eloquent, informed, speaking judiciously. Furthermore, you've written 209 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:01.440 a book, and to my intense irritation, it's a very 210 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:07.440 very good book. Here's the threshold question. In an age 211 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:11.759 in which you know, as the father of four, nobody reads, 212 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:16.600 kids are not being raised to read. Here you come 213 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:19.639 saying we'll come to some of the particular novels in 214 00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:24.240 a moment. But here you come saying reading is important. 215 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:32.879 And furthermore, this disused genre, this old form, the novel, 216 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:38.000 really matters. It can say tremendously important things to us. 217 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:42.480 It can help us think through why we're conservatives. It 218 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:45.919 can help us approach life in a healthy and more 219 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:49.679 intelligent way. What the hell are you talking about? 220 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:54.679 You are unfortunately correct that people are not reading much 221 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:57.799 of anything anymore, apart from their phones, I guess, and 222 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.120 that's been going on for a long time, but it 223 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.399 it is getting worse. I won't get into the numbers, 224 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:07.799 but one alarming statistic is that in the nineteen eighties, 225 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.480 young people were the most likely to read a lot, 226 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:15.000 and now young people are just behind the very old 227 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:17.759 in rates of reading as of just a couple of 228 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:19.960 years ago. And no doubt that has a lot to 229 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.320 do with the many, many distractions that young people have 230 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.200 to choose from. What I do in the introduction to 231 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.480 my book is make the case for reading, in particular 232 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:33.759 for reading fiction. I have nothing against poetry, but novels 233 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:38.720 are what this book is about, and fiction has particular 234 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:41.919 merits that other type of types of books do not have. 235 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:45.600 History books obviously are important, but I know, especially conservatives 236 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:50.600 love reading history and biography, especially conservative men. But novels 237 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:54.000 give us knowledge in a way that those books do not, 238 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.960 and they also offer beauty in a way that history 239 00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:03.440 books rarely do. And I think conservatives especially should be 240 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:07.639 interested in the novel as a form because it is 241 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:11.559 among the greatest art forms of Western civilization. It's a 242 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:14.799 relatively new form. It's only, you know, a few centuries old, 243 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:20.120 but some of our yeah, that's right, it's basically a 244 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:23.279 new kid on the block. But it's uh. Some of 245 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:29.240 the greatest thinkers and writers of our civilization have expressed 246 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:33.360 their ideas and written in this form, and we need 247 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:36.120 to be aware of it. We need to we need 248 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:41.159 to remember and maintain our ability to engage with novels, 249 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:43.799 because once we lose that ability, I mean, you're not 250 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:46.840 born with it. It takes some practice to appreciate a novel. 251 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:50.759 It is much easier to scroll through TikTok or whatever. 252 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:53.399 But if we lose that, we're cutting ourselves off from 253 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:54.879 a great literary tradition. 254 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.519 Okay, you give me about three sentences. I'm going to 255 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:01.840 hit you with some of the novels that you discuss here, 256 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:05.080 and at some point, at any point, Steve Hayward and 257 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.399 Charlie Cook are going to jump in to take issue 258 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:09.519 with you or ask why you left this or that 259 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:11.919 novel off the list. But let's begin with one that 260 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:18.919 I myself always just loved Rossellus Samuel Johnson. Yeah, what's 261 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:22.559 the point of it? When? What's the story? And what's 262 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:24.960 the points? According to Scalia. 263 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:28.080 Samuel Johnson Rashalis, technically not a novel. I cheat a 264 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:30.639 little bit here. It's an Oriental tale, but nobody's going 265 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:32.639 to care enough to raise a big fuss about that. 266 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:37.279 Seventeen fifty nine. It is a tale of a young 267 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:41.440 man who is restless. The pun on his name suggests 268 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.360 that he is. He has a great life. He's a 269 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:47.919 prince and he lives in a kingdom. Everything is given 270 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.240 to him, but he doesn't have to work. He doesn't 271 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:53.600 have to do anything, and his experience and knowledge is 272 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:55.879 are so limited. He wants to go out and learn 273 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.320 more about the world. And what he learns is that 274 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.799 life is full of disappointment, not because it's unfair or 275 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:04.159 anything like that, but once you reach what once you 276 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:08.519 reach your goals, you immediately want to do something else. 277 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:11.879 There's an innate restlessness about us. And the novel is 278 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:16.480 also about a very conservative idea of universal human nature, 279 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:22.600 human behaviors and ideas and values that transcend time and place, 280 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:24.519 and what I do in my chapters, I connect a 281 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:28.200 lot of what Johnson wrote to what the Founders wrote. 282 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:30.799 Even though Johnson was not a fan of the American Revolution, 283 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:33.600 a lot of their Enlightenment ideals overlap. 284 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:35.919 Tell us about the astronomer. 285 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.759 Oh, the astronomer is somebody who gets so he's a 286 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.240 character in this book who gets so absorbed in basically 287 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:46.240 in his one bit of knowledge, impressive knowledge that it 288 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.279 is that it deforms his mind. And it's a really 289 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:53.919 important lesson that any really any expertise deforms the mind. 290 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:56.039 I think Nietzsche said that I should have quoted that, 291 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.000 And so they have to kind of rescue him and 292 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.600 bring he believes he has all sorts of powers he 293 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:05.119 doesn't have, so they have to dissuade him. 294 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:08.519 I read Rosalus because it was assigned I read Rossellus 295 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:13.160 in college. It is I'm so delighted that you started 296 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:16.519 with it, because it is for young men particularly. Leave 297 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:18.799 I leave the brick bets from the women to you, 298 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.960 although there will come to that in a moment. But 299 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:26.720 the astronomer seems at first to young Rossellus like though 300 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:29.519 he has finally found a wise man, yes, a man 301 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:32.400 who studies that. And then gradually as he spends time, 302 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:35.079 as you read through the work, it becomes clear that 303 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:40.400 the astronomer believes that he's not merely observing the moon rise, 304 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.400 that he is causing it, that all the movements of 305 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:47.440 the cosmos have come to depend upon him. And I 306 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:50.359 have to say I have found that as I've gone 307 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:55.640 through life, I have found that particular touch of insanity 308 00:17:55.720 --> 00:18:00.480 in one otherwise wise sane, accomplished person after or another. 309 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:04.279 It's profound. Okay, now we come to. 310 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.079 You described that much better than I did, Peter. Thank you. 311 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:09.480 Can I bit in Peter for a minute, because of course, 312 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:11.759 see well, I think we got to set a broader 313 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:14.359 scene for the listeners first before we get in some 314 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:16.759 particular novels. I mean, we can do each one of 315 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:20.079 these for an hour each almost. But put this way, Chris. 316 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:22.440 When I saw that you were working on this book, 317 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:24.200 and I've been looking forward to this, by the way, 318 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:26.559 so I'm glad now to have it, and I saw 319 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:30.400 the title, it was thirteen novels. Oh gosh, I just 320 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:30.839 lost it. 321 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:35.480 Here, thirteen novels conservatives will love but probably haven't read. 322 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:39.200 Right. Well, you know my first assumption as well, it's 323 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:41.720 probably gonna be the you know, the usual list of 324 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:46.119 the books that I cherish, you know, orwell, Darkness at 325 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:49.759 Noon Brights had revisited C. S. Lewis's novels, several others 326 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.039 you can point to, and you make nods to those 327 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:54.519 in your introduction as you explain how you've done it. 328 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.200 And instead the list we've got as even some of 329 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:00.279 the prominent authors, you haven't done their most prominent novel So, 330 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.240 for example, you have Georgia Elliott, and of course I say, oh, 331 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.720 Middle March, like one of the five Greatest Things. Instead 332 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:10.039 you have Daniel Deronda instead. So I'm wondering what your 333 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:13.920 thought process was picking novels that you might say, are 334 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:17.359 not the ones that would be the a list that 335 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.279 the rest of us would do if we're asked by say, 336 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:23.240 National Review, to give the five most important conservative novels 337 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:23.799 or something. 338 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.799 Steve says, Steve says, how interesting explained to us how 339 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:29.400 you took all these offbeat novels by great authors. And 340 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.759 Robinson is thinking, yes, Kaliah, what the hell were you doing? 341 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:35.119 No, I didn't think that at all. I thought it 342 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:36.839 was I thought it was genius. Peter. 343 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:40.920 I wish to reserve. I yield the floor back to you, guys, 344 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:42.559 but I wish to reserve a moment or two to 345 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:44.960 bitch and moan about selecting Waverley. 346 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.359 But go ahead, how dare you? How dare you? 347 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:49.480 Well? 348 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.359 I don't know if it's hereditary, but I am a 349 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:56.599 little bit of a contrarian, and I wanted to. I 350 00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:59.960 wanted readers to encounter books that were off the beaten path, 351 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:04.039 in large part because conservatives do have this bookshelf that 352 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:07.680 at their hands that is for the most part, pretty impressive. 353 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:10.400 But by always going to the same books, and you 354 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:13.400 mentioned a lot of them, we're we're selling ourselves short. 355 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:19.000 We're not recognizing the rich literary tradition that that kind 356 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:25.799 of reinforces or develops or depicts some of the values 357 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:30.039 and ideas that we hold deer. And these aren't These 358 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:33.920 novels do not proselytize. These novels are are not didactic. 359 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:38.079 They are first and foremost great works of literature that 360 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:42.319 I really believe people of any political persuasion would enjoy. 361 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:46.839 But conservatives in particular would enjoy these books because they're 362 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:52.759 surprising and they and they are sympathetic to things that 363 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.640 we hold deer. In the case of Daniel Deronda, Middle 364 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:00.160 Marches is the better novel by by George Elliott, but 365 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:03.960 more people are familiar with with Middle March, and I 366 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:07.559 think Daniel Deronda is underrated. It is her longest novel, 367 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:11.559 is her last novel, but I find it remarkably accessible 368 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:13.519 for as long as it is. I think it moves 369 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:17.079 pretty quickly. And it is it's about duty, It's about 370 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:20.680 what you owe other people, the sacrifices you make you 371 00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:23.240 have to make to other people. And one of the 372 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:28.799 main characters, Gwendolen Harleth is a beautiful, funny, very likable 373 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.680 character in some ways, but very selfish, and she learns 374 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:36.200 the hard way the short the dangers of that selfishness. 375 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.599 But more remarkably, it's a Zionist novel. This novel. George 376 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:44.759 Elliott was not Jewish, but this novel predates the Zionist 377 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:49.160 First Zionist Congress by two decades. And it's a case 378 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.559 for a Jewish state that in which the Jewish people 379 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.039 are able basically to secure a national identity in the 380 00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:59.119 way that European peoples are able to do it. So 381 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.559 it's for that reason a very controversial novel. But in 382 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:05.559 this day and age, perhaps especially relevant. 383 00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:08.240 Well, you know, Chris, I think that you've got a 384 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:11.759 wonderful list here. I just sent from Peter's crankiness about 385 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.440 how you picked it. But I'll say listeners that this 386 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:18.680 is a perfect list to snuggle up in your Cozy 387 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:22.440 Earth sheets. 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