1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,839
Speaker 1: My other favorite Churchill story is when his great granddaughter,

2
00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,560
I think granddaughter ran into the room. This is off

3
00:00:08,599 --> 00:00:10,519
to the war, and he's sitting writing his memoirs and

4
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,359
she runs into You may know this. She runs into

5
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,759
the room and she sees him sitting there, and she's gosped.

6
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,679
Speaker 2: She stops, shees, She goes.

7
00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,760
Speaker 1: Great Granddad, is it true that you're the greatest man

8
00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,760
in the world? And he says, yes, Now fuck off.

9
00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:33,520
Speaker 3: Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask

10
00:00:33,679 --> 00:00:38,600
what you can do for your country. Mister gorbachav tear

11
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:44,159
down this wall. It's the Ricochet podcast number seven hundred

12
00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,240
and forty one. James Lilax is off today, but I

13
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,439
am joined by Peter Robinson and Charles C. W. Cook

14
00:00:50,719 --> 00:00:54,600
and our special guest, Christopher Scalia. Let's have ourselves a podcast.

15
00:00:55,159 --> 00:00:58,960
Speaker 4: The gleaming marvels of Ria and Abu Dhabi were not

16
00:00:59,079 --> 00:01:02,560
created by the show called nation builders, neo cons or

17
00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,319
liberal nonprofits like those who spent trillions and trillions of

18
00:01:07,439 --> 00:01:12,120
dollars failing. Instead, the birth of a modern Middle East

19
00:01:12,159 --> 00:01:15,680
has been brought by the people of the region themselves,

20
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:17,680
the people that are right here, the people that have

21
00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:19,000
lived here all their lives.

22
00:01:19,719 --> 00:01:24,000
Speaker 3: Welcome everybody to episode seven forty one of the Ricochet podcast.

23
00:01:24,519 --> 00:01:27,319
James is off today I'll be your host, Steve Hayward,

24
00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:30,640
joined us always by Charles C. W. Cook, and today

25
00:01:30,879 --> 00:01:34,040
a stranger is filling the third slot. It's a guy

26
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,840
named Peter Robinson. Hi, Peter, how are you? Hi?

27
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,120
Speaker 5: Steve? I barely remember myself right what? We've got a

28
00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:42,599
lot to do in.

29
00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:45,560
Speaker 3: Our special guest today will be Christopher Scalia with a

30
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,000
terrific new book on novels that we've been neglecting. But

31
00:01:49,159 --> 00:01:52,599
before we get to Christopher, quickly, Peter, and I mean

32
00:01:52,719 --> 00:01:54,560
very quickly, because this could be the whole show. But

33
00:01:54,799 --> 00:02:00,840
give me your just initial impressions of the new Pope.

34
00:01:59,519 --> 00:02:04,920
Speaker 5: The Pope I listen, I mean I like him. Yeah, yeah, No,

35
00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,719
I do too. I'm just trying to explain that I

36
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,919
feel myself in the position of a dog rescued from

37
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,919
the pound that was grievously beaten by its former owner.

38
00:02:15,319 --> 00:02:18,599
It is going to be a while before I unclench

39
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,879
and give my full trust to a new master. That's

40
00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,560
the kind of beaten dog I am. After twelve years

41
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,680
of Pope Francis, now, I'm sure there will be some.

42
00:02:28,039 --> 00:02:30,159
And I speak of him with respect because he is

43
00:02:30,199 --> 00:02:37,360
the pope, was the pope. And however, Pope Leo is just.

44
00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,919
He seems to be a man of good sense, well spoken,

45
00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,639
loves the church, and loves the church in every particular

46
00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:50,400
of its history. So he speaks beautiful Latin, he sings

47
00:02:50,479 --> 00:02:54,400
the Regina Shelley in front of the Every bit of

48
00:02:54,439 --> 00:02:59,360
this is just a relief and an inspiration to a

49
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,199
Catholic such me. So I truly I love the man.

50
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,960
I love the man right down to his brothers, who

51
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:11,240
are moordinary Americans, just right, the sense of normalcy. Now,

52
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,199
of course, the left will be outraged because one of

53
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,319
the brothers is pro Trump. I remind the left that

54
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,680
Trump won the popular vote last time. You can be

55
00:03:18,719 --> 00:03:21,840
a normal American and pro Trump. Just the sense of

56
00:03:21,879 --> 00:03:26,439
a kind of normal love of the church, love of country,

57
00:03:26,479 --> 00:03:29,599
love of this country. Not however, that he hasn't dedicated

58
00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,120
almost all his life to the poor in Peru. But

59
00:03:32,199 --> 00:03:34,520
I so far I love him. I find myself my

60
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:35,560
heart going out to him.

61
00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,479
Speaker 3: Right. All right, Well, let's go from the sacred to

62
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,080
the mundane. I'll put it that way. Charles, I got

63
00:03:42,159 --> 00:03:44,319
up early yesterday out here on the left coast to

64
00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,520
listen to the oral argument in the Supreme Court. Yeah, wow,

65
00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,560
the birthright citizenship. Although really the case is about whether

66
00:03:52,639 --> 00:03:55,680
district courts can do these nationwide injunctions. So I listened

67
00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,360
to the whole thing and have my thoughts. But did

68
00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,439
you get a chance to listen or review at Charles?

69
00:04:00,319 --> 00:04:00,719
Speaker 6: I did?

70
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,039
Speaker 1: I have thoughts on both of those? Which do you

71
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,759
want either describe it whoever you like?

72
00:04:08,319 --> 00:04:13,319
Speaker 5: Charles? Is this wonderful intellectual constitutionalist's jukebox you put in

73
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:18,240
a quarter rights your button? Go ahead, right?

74
00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:19,879
Speaker 3: Well?

75
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:25,480
Speaker 1: I wish that this case was not also about national injunctions,

76
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,399
because I think they'd be a better vehicle for that,

77
00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,639
and also it may get in the way of the

78
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:35,199
on the merits decision. I have very complicated thoughts about

79
00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,639
national induction, Steve. I think that ultimately the problem we

80
00:04:38,759 --> 00:04:41,959
have with judges who come in and usurp the role

81
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,160
of the other branches is that the judges are hacks,

82
00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,399
not that national injunctions exist, because there are many circumstances

83
00:04:47,439 --> 00:04:49,399
in which it makes sense to have national injunctions.

84
00:04:49,399 --> 00:04:50,759
Speaker 2: I think the problem is we have a lot of

85
00:04:50,759 --> 00:04:52,839
bad judges on the.

86
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 1: Question of birthright citizenship. It's funny. I think Trump will

87
00:04:58,319 --> 00:05:04,399
lose this if it's decided. I am less persuaded than

88
00:05:04,439 --> 00:05:08,519
I was that it is easy. I thought last year

89
00:05:08,639 --> 00:05:09,519
i'd say.

90
00:05:09,439 --> 00:05:11,639
Speaker 5: Well, yes, that's a profound point.

91
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:17,079
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, one kim ark is settled law. The originalist

92
00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:23,759
meaning is obvious. I still think that's probably true on balance.

93
00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,959
I certainly think that there would be five votes for

94
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,279
that position, three of the Democrat appointed judges, and then

95
00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:36,279
probably Robertson Kavanaugh on precedent inertia grounds. But I am

96
00:05:36,399 --> 00:05:39,959
less sure than I was. I haven't got to that

97
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,920
because of yesterday's or all arguments. I've got to that

98
00:05:41,959 --> 00:05:45,000
slowly over time. Randy Mannett raised some questions for me.

99
00:05:45,079 --> 00:05:47,680
Ilan Werman raised some questions for me. I read a

100
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,319
few of the Amikast briefs. I've read some other people

101
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,360
I respect who have sown doubt in my mind. So

102
00:05:54,759 --> 00:05:57,120
this one, actually, I think is more difficult than I

103
00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,199
had thought it was.

104
00:05:58,879 --> 00:06:01,519
Speaker 3: You no, My impression it was that they're going to

105
00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,240
pun completely on the birthright citizenship issue, because it seemed

106
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,079
like about ninety five percent rough estimate of the argument

107
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,519
was really concentrated on the nationwide injunction question. And I

108
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,879
thought Justice Kagan gave away the whole game when she said,

109
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,279
with some indignance in the way she put the question

110
00:06:20,399 --> 00:06:24,759
to one of the Trump attorneys Justice Department attorneys, I

111
00:06:24,759 --> 00:06:28,800
can't believe you're bringing this case to us. And the

112
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,040
subtext was you're trying to sheehorn in birthright citizenship on

113
00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,000
something that even I admit it's problematic, which is district

114
00:06:36,079 --> 00:06:39,680
judges giving nationwide injunctions. And then the second thing was

115
00:06:40,399 --> 00:06:42,600
the other thing of the weakness of I think the

116
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,160
Democratic justices, it's clear they hate what's going on on

117
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,040
both levels. I think they like activist judges doing nationwide injunctions.

118
00:06:50,759 --> 00:06:55,079
But the Trump administration plan or initial argument was, well, look,

119
00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,279
the decision should be bound to just the parties of

120
00:06:57,319 --> 00:07:00,160
the case, which was you know Lincoln's view about dred Scott,

121
00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:03,480
by the way, so not a novel or exotic position, correct,

122
00:07:03,519 --> 00:07:07,399
And the Trump attorneys responded sensibly, well, look, you could

123
00:07:07,399 --> 00:07:10,959
have a class action suit brought to federal district court

124
00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,199
and that could give a broader injunction to a whole

125
00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,959
class of people. And then there were but then the

126
00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,240
comeback from the liberal justices was, well, what if the

127
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,720
class isn't certified, are you really telling me you'd have

128
00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:26,079
to go one person at a time through the federal

129
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,959
courts to vindicate their citizenship or vindicate their eligibility for

130
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,600
benefits and other rights that come from citizenship. And so

131
00:07:33,639 --> 00:07:35,839
you could tell that. I think that there's and I

132
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,360
think even Keigan's probably thinks that nationwide adjunctions are problematic

133
00:07:40,399 --> 00:07:42,519
at the very least. But it was clear that he

134
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,120
really hates it that it's tied up with the birthright

135
00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:46,240
citizenship issue.

136
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,560
Speaker 5: We have a guest joining us soon, so but may

137
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,680
I ask a question of both of you. I did

138
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,240
not listen to all the oral arguments, and I certainly

139
00:07:55,279 --> 00:07:57,040
didn't read any of the meek as briefs the way

140
00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,839
Charlie did. But I listened to bits and pieces of

141
00:07:59,839 --> 00:08:03,800
it as it floated through my feed yesterday. And here's

142
00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:07,879
my question on national injunctions. I try to put myself

143
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:15,800
in the mind of John Roberts, Chief Justice John Roberts. Oh,

144
00:08:15,839 --> 00:08:18,000
and we've seen over and over again, and I think

145
00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,000
it's true of him. By the way, just full disclosure,

146
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,560
I've known the man for forty years. We worked together

147
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,000
in the Reagan white House's young men, and I like

148
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,040
him a lot, which is not to say that I

149
00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,600
get my head around all of his jurisprudence. However, he

150
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:37,279
really is an institutionalist there. He really does take seriously

151
00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:43,120
holding it all together. And now we come with an argument.

152
00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,679
And the argument really it's interesting for Justice Thomas and

153
00:08:47,759 --> 00:08:51,000
Justice Alito as well, because it's not a question where

154
00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,960
how do you apply original meaning to the question of

155
00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,320
national injunctions. You've got six more than six hundred district

156
00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,480
court judges who have the power to impose national injunctions.

157
00:09:02,919 --> 00:09:06,559
Every single one of them is simply a judge who

158
00:09:06,639 --> 00:09:09,879
has the ability to stand up to the President of

159
00:09:09,879 --> 00:09:13,159
the United States, elected by the entire country, and in

160
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,600
many circumstances, to the Congress of the United States, to

161
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,840
defy on his own bat Article one an Article two

162
00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:25,960
of the Constitution. And it doesn't work. It's almost a

163
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:33,720
purely institutional argument. The situation is untenable. Now, mister Chief Justice,

164
00:09:33,799 --> 00:09:34,639
what do you do with it?

165
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question. You know what I want

166
00:09:38,919 --> 00:09:41,879
to do, Peter, I actually want to pose that question

167
00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,799
to our guest, who is ready to join us in

168
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,919
a moment he may not want the question, and you'll

169
00:09:47,919 --> 00:09:49,200
see why. I want to tell you who it is.

170
00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,440
Our guest is here. It is Christopher Scalia, a senior

171
00:09:53,519 --> 00:09:56,759
fellow in the Social Cultural and Constitutional Studies at the

172
00:09:56,799 --> 00:10:01,159
American Enterprise Institute, formerly a professor of English at the

173
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,000
University of Virginia's College at WISE, and he has a

174
00:10:04,039 --> 00:10:06,639
brand new book out that he's here to talk about.

175
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,720
But Chris, you'll get used to a book tour interviews

176
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:12,879
where the interviewer wants to ask you about something aside

177
00:10:12,879 --> 00:10:14,759
from your book. But I promise we will do the book.

178
00:10:14,919 --> 00:10:19,279
The book is called Thirteen Novels Conservatives will love but

179
00:10:19,519 --> 00:10:23,399
probably haven't read. It's going to be out here next week. Chris, welcome,

180
00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,000
glad to have you. I've been waiting with great anticipation

181
00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:26,679
for this book.

182
00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,720
Speaker 6: Thank you, guys. It's great to be back on the

183
00:10:29,759 --> 00:10:32,120
podcast and I'm looking forward to talking to you all.

184
00:10:32,519 --> 00:10:35,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay, well just briefly. I mean, because I think listeners,

185
00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:37,039
because of who you are in your name, they're going

186
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,879
to know if you have an opinion about the Supreme

187
00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:42,960
Court argument this week on injunctions and birthright citizenship. And

188
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,200
if you don't, that's fine because you are a professor

189
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,399
of English and not of the law. But since we

190
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:48,799
have you, I have to ask.

191
00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,440
Speaker 6: I admit I have not been following it very closely

192
00:10:53,519 --> 00:10:58,960
because I've been preoccupied with book obligations and opportunities. So

193
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,399
it's obviously an important issue, and I agree with the

194
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,559
general conservative consensus that these universal injunctions are becoming a

195
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,200
serious problem and we need to figure out what the

196
00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,759
hell is going on with them, as President Trump would say,

197
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,639
and they do seem novel. So my own uneducated opinion

198
00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:22,279
on the matter is that the judges making these injunctions,

199
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,799
handing down these injunctions are overstepping their bounds. But I

200
00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,519
don't have a ton of confidence in that opinion, And

201
00:11:28,879 --> 00:11:31,000
based on a little bit I heard about of the

202
00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,159
arguments yesterday, I really don't know what's going to happen

203
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,840
with the birthright citizenship decision. But obviously I'm not certain,

204
00:11:37,919 --> 00:11:41,279
and you can't tell for sure from oral arguments, but

205
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,519
it does look like the administration has an uphill battle there.

206
00:11:45,279 --> 00:11:47,480
Speaker 5: Enough of this, Christopher Scullia, I have known you since

207
00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:51,120
you were a pipsqueak. Now Here you come, now here

208
00:11:51,159 --> 00:11:57,360
you come, all eloquent, informed, speaking judiciously. Furthermore, you've written

209
00:11:57,399 --> 00:12:01,440
a book, and to my intense irritation, it's a very

210
00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:07,440
very good book. Here's the threshold question. In an age

211
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,759
in which you know, as the father of four, nobody reads,

212
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,600
kids are not being raised to read. Here you come

213
00:12:16,799 --> 00:12:19,639
saying we'll come to some of the particular novels in

214
00:12:19,639 --> 00:12:24,240
a moment. But here you come saying reading is important.

215
00:12:24,799 --> 00:12:32,879
And furthermore, this disused genre, this old form, the novel,

216
00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:38,000
really matters. It can say tremendously important things to us.

217
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,480
It can help us think through why we're conservatives. It

218
00:12:42,519 --> 00:12:45,919
can help us approach life in a healthy and more

219
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,679
intelligent way. What the hell are you talking about?

220
00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,679
Speaker 6: You are unfortunately correct that people are not reading much

221
00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,799
of anything anymore, apart from their phones, I guess, and

222
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,120
that's been going on for a long time, but it

223
00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,399
it is getting worse. I won't get into the numbers,

224
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,799
but one alarming statistic is that in the nineteen eighties,

225
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,480
young people were the most likely to read a lot,

226
00:13:11,639 --> 00:13:15,000
and now young people are just behind the very old

227
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,759
in rates of reading as of just a couple of

228
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:19,960
years ago. And no doubt that has a lot to

229
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,320
do with the many, many distractions that young people have

230
00:13:23,399 --> 00:13:26,200
to choose from. What I do in the introduction to

231
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,480
my book is make the case for reading, in particular

232
00:13:28,519 --> 00:13:33,759
for reading fiction. I have nothing against poetry, but novels

233
00:13:33,759 --> 00:13:38,720
are what this book is about, and fiction has particular

234
00:13:38,759 --> 00:13:41,919
merits that other type of types of books do not have.

235
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,600
History books obviously are important, but I know, especially conservatives

236
00:13:45,639 --> 00:13:50,600
love reading history and biography, especially conservative men. But novels

237
00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:54,000
give us knowledge in a way that those books do not,

238
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,960
and they also offer beauty in a way that history

239
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:03,440
books rarely do. And I think conservatives especially should be

240
00:14:03,799 --> 00:14:07,639
interested in the novel as a form because it is

241
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,559
among the greatest art forms of Western civilization. It's a

242
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,799
relatively new form. It's only, you know, a few centuries old,

243
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:20,120
but some of our yeah, that's right, it's basically a

244
00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:23,279
new kid on the block. But it's uh. Some of

245
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:29,240
the greatest thinkers and writers of our civilization have expressed

246
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,360
their ideas and written in this form, and we need

247
00:14:33,399 --> 00:14:36,120
to be aware of it. We need to we need

248
00:14:36,159 --> 00:14:41,159
to remember and maintain our ability to engage with novels,

249
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,799
because once we lose that ability, I mean, you're not

250
00:14:43,879 --> 00:14:46,840
born with it. It takes some practice to appreciate a novel.

251
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,759
It is much easier to scroll through TikTok or whatever.

252
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,399
But if we lose that, we're cutting ourselves off from

253
00:14:53,399 --> 00:14:54,879
a great literary tradition.

254
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,519
Speaker 5: Okay, you give me about three sentences. I'm going to

255
00:14:59,559 --> 00:15:01,840
hit you with some of the novels that you discuss here,

256
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,080
and at some point, at any point, Steve Hayward and

257
00:15:05,159 --> 00:15:07,399
Charlie Cook are going to jump in to take issue

258
00:15:07,399 --> 00:15:09,519
with you or ask why you left this or that

259
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,919
novel off the list. But let's begin with one that

260
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:18,919
I myself always just loved Rossellus Samuel Johnson. Yeah, what's

261
00:15:18,919 --> 00:15:22,559
the point of it? When? What's the story? And what's

262
00:15:22,559 --> 00:15:24,960
the points? According to Scalia.

263
00:15:24,919 --> 00:15:28,080
Speaker 6: Samuel Johnson Rashalis, technically not a novel. I cheat a

264
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,639
little bit here. It's an Oriental tale, but nobody's going

265
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,639
to care enough to raise a big fuss about that.

266
00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:37,279
Seventeen fifty nine. It is a tale of a young

267
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,440
man who is restless. The pun on his name suggests

268
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,360
that he is. He has a great life. He's a

269
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,919
prince and he lives in a kingdom. Everything is given

270
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,240
to him, but he doesn't have to work. He doesn't

271
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,600
have to do anything, and his experience and knowledge is

272
00:15:53,759 --> 00:15:55,879
are so limited. He wants to go out and learn

273
00:15:55,919 --> 00:15:58,320
more about the world. And what he learns is that

274
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,799
life is full of disappointment, not because it's unfair or

275
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,159
anything like that, but once you reach what once you

276
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,519
reach your goals, you immediately want to do something else.

277
00:16:08,919 --> 00:16:11,879
There's an innate restlessness about us. And the novel is

278
00:16:11,919 --> 00:16:16,480
also about a very conservative idea of universal human nature,

279
00:16:16,679 --> 00:16:22,600
human behaviors and ideas and values that transcend time and place,

280
00:16:22,679 --> 00:16:24,519
and what I do in my chapters, I connect a

281
00:16:24,519 --> 00:16:28,200
lot of what Johnson wrote to what the Founders wrote.

282
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,799
Even though Johnson was not a fan of the American Revolution,

283
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,600
a lot of their Enlightenment ideals overlap.

284
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:35,919
Speaker 5: Tell us about the astronomer.

285
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,759
Speaker 6: Oh, the astronomer is somebody who gets so he's a

286
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,240
character in this book who gets so absorbed in basically

287
00:16:42,279 --> 00:16:46,240
in his one bit of knowledge, impressive knowledge that it

288
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,279
is that it deforms his mind. And it's a really

289
00:16:49,679 --> 00:16:53,919
important lesson that any really any expertise deforms the mind.

290
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,039
I think Nietzsche said that I should have quoted that,

291
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,000
And so they have to kind of rescue him and

292
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,600
bring he believes he has all sorts of powers he

293
00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:05,119
doesn't have, so they have to dissuade him.

294
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,519
Speaker 5: I read Rosalus because it was assigned I read Rossellus

295
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:13,160
in college. It is I'm so delighted that you started

296
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,519
with it, because it is for young men particularly. Leave

297
00:17:16,759 --> 00:17:18,799
I leave the brick bets from the women to you,

298
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,960
although there will come to that in a moment. But

299
00:17:22,039 --> 00:17:26,720
the astronomer seems at first to young Rossellus like though

300
00:17:26,759 --> 00:17:29,519
he has finally found a wise man, yes, a man

301
00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:32,400
who studies that. And then gradually as he spends time,

302
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,079
as you read through the work, it becomes clear that

303
00:17:35,279 --> 00:17:40,400
the astronomer believes that he's not merely observing the moon rise,

304
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,400
that he is causing it, that all the movements of

305
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,440
the cosmos have come to depend upon him. And I

306
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,359
have to say I have found that as I've gone

307
00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:55,640
through life, I have found that particular touch of insanity

308
00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,480
in one otherwise wise sane, accomplished person after or another.

309
00:18:00,519 --> 00:18:04,279
It's profound. Okay, now we come to.

310
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,079
Speaker 6: You described that much better than I did, Peter. Thank you.

311
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 3: Can I bit in Peter for a minute, because of course,

312
00:18:09,559 --> 00:18:11,759
see well, I think we got to set a broader

313
00:18:11,759 --> 00:18:14,359
scene for the listeners first before we get in some

314
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,759
particular novels. I mean, we can do each one of

315
00:18:16,759 --> 00:18:20,079
these for an hour each almost. But put this way, Chris.

316
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,440
When I saw that you were working on this book,

317
00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:24,200
and I've been looking forward to this, by the way,

318
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,559
so I'm glad now to have it, and I saw

319
00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:30,400
the title, it was thirteen novels. Oh gosh, I just

320
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:30,839
lost it.

321
00:18:30,759 --> 00:18:35,480
Speaker 6: Here, thirteen novels conservatives will love but probably haven't read.

322
00:18:36,039 --> 00:18:39,200
Speaker 3: Right. Well, you know my first assumption as well, it's

323
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,720
probably gonna be the you know, the usual list of

324
00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:46,119
the books that I cherish, you know, orwell, Darkness at

325
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,759
Noon Brights had revisited C. S. Lewis's novels, several others

326
00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:52,039
you can point to, and you make nods to those

327
00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:54,519
in your introduction as you explain how you've done it.

328
00:18:54,799 --> 00:18:57,200
And instead the list we've got as even some of

329
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,279
the prominent authors, you haven't done their most prominent novel So,

330
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,240
for example, you have Georgia Elliott, and of course I say, oh,

331
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,720
Middle March, like one of the five Greatest Things. Instead

332
00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:10,039
you have Daniel Deronda instead. So I'm wondering what your

333
00:19:10,079 --> 00:19:13,920
thought process was picking novels that you might say, are

334
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,359
not the ones that would be the a list that

335
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,279
the rest of us would do if we're asked by say,

336
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,240
National Review, to give the five most important conservative novels

337
00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:23,799
or something.

338
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,799
Speaker 5: Steve says, Steve says, how interesting explained to us how

339
00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:29,400
you took all these offbeat novels by great authors. And

340
00:19:29,519 --> 00:19:32,759
Robinson is thinking, yes, Kaliah, what the hell were you doing?

341
00:19:33,519 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 3: No, I didn't think that at all. I thought it

342
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:36,839
was I thought it was genius. Peter.

343
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,920
Speaker 5: I wish to reserve. I yield the floor back to you, guys,

344
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,559
but I wish to reserve a moment or two to

345
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,960
bitch and moan about selecting Waverley.

346
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,359
Speaker 6: But go ahead, how dare you? How dare you?

347
00:19:49,279 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 3: Well?

348
00:19:49,519 --> 00:19:51,359
Speaker 6: I don't know if it's hereditary, but I am a

349
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:56,599
little bit of a contrarian, and I wanted to. I

350
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,960
wanted readers to encounter books that were off the beaten path,

351
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,039
in large part because conservatives do have this bookshelf that

352
00:20:04,759 --> 00:20:07,680
at their hands that is for the most part, pretty impressive.

353
00:20:08,039 --> 00:20:10,400
But by always going to the same books, and you

354
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,400
mentioned a lot of them, we're we're selling ourselves short.

355
00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:19,000
We're not recognizing the rich literary tradition that that kind

356
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:25,799
of reinforces or develops or depicts some of the values

357
00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:30,039
and ideas that we hold deer. And these aren't These

358
00:20:30,079 --> 00:20:33,920
novels do not proselytize. These novels are are not didactic.

359
00:20:34,319 --> 00:20:38,079
They are first and foremost great works of literature that

360
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,319
I really believe people of any political persuasion would enjoy.

361
00:20:43,079 --> 00:20:46,839
But conservatives in particular would enjoy these books because they're

362
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:52,759
surprising and they and they are sympathetic to things that

363
00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:56,640
we hold deer. In the case of Daniel Deronda, Middle

364
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,160
Marches is the better novel by by George Elliott, but

365
00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:03,960
more people are familiar with with Middle March, and I

366
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,559
think Daniel Deronda is underrated. It is her longest novel,

367
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,559
is her last novel, but I find it remarkably accessible

368
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,519
for as long as it is. I think it moves

369
00:21:13,559 --> 00:21:17,079
pretty quickly. And it is it's about duty, It's about

370
00:21:17,279 --> 00:21:20,680
what you owe other people, the sacrifices you make you

371
00:21:20,759 --> 00:21:23,240
have to make to other people. And one of the

372
00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:28,799
main characters, Gwendolen Harleth is a beautiful, funny, very likable

373
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,680
character in some ways, but very selfish, and she learns

374
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,200
the hard way the short the dangers of that selfishness.

375
00:21:36,319 --> 00:21:39,599
But more remarkably, it's a Zionist novel. This novel. George

376
00:21:39,599 --> 00:21:44,759
Elliott was not Jewish, but this novel predates the Zionist

377
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:49,160
First Zionist Congress by two decades. And it's a case

378
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,559
for a Jewish state that in which the Jewish people

379
00:21:52,599 --> 00:21:56,039
are able basically to secure a national identity in the

380
00:21:56,039 --> 00:21:59,119
way that European peoples are able to do it. So

381
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,559
it's for that reason a very controversial novel. But in

382
00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:05,559
this day and age, perhaps especially relevant.

383
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 3: Well, you know, Chris, I think that you've got a

384
00:22:08,319 --> 00:22:11,759
wonderful list here. I just sent from Peter's crankiness about

385
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,440
how you picked it. But I'll say listeners that this

386
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,680
is a perfect list to snuggle up in your Cozy

387
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,440
Earth sheets. We all have our checklist for the hours

388
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,200
between nine and five, and getting through it can be hard.

389
00:22:25,599 --> 00:22:29,160
But today's sponsor wants you to have time to prioritize

390
00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:32,759
you outside the work hours. In your five to nine

391
00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:36,680
Cozy Earth, lets your thoughts turn to softness. Cozy Earth's

392
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,480
goal is to help you turn your home into a sanctuary,

393
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,960
a place where you can escape the outside world's demands.

394
00:22:43,279 --> 00:22:46,880
And truly unwind. Life gets hectic and finding comfort in

395
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,640
calm is essential. We need time for relaxation, recharging, and

396
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,079
soaking in a sense of peace. With Cozy Earth, you

397
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,079
can create a space that feels like a personal retreat

398
00:22:58,279 --> 00:23:02,319
where comfort and serenity come together naturally. And one of

399
00:23:02,319 --> 00:23:05,559
the regular users of Cosy Earth is our own Charles CW.

400
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 5: Cook.

401
00:23:06,599 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 1: I use it quite a lot because I sleep in

402
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,759
my bed, and I sleep in my bed as well

403
00:23:13,799 --> 00:23:17,559
as I do in part because of my Cozy Earth sheets.

404
00:23:17,559 --> 00:23:19,519
And the thing is about these sheets is not only

405
00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:22,599
are they very comfortable, but they're very breathable, and that

406
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:25,759
is extremely important where I am in Florida, because if

407
00:23:25,759 --> 00:23:28,839
you don't have breathable sheets in Florida, you get very

408
00:23:28,839 --> 00:23:32,359
hot and you don't sleep properly. So I enjoy sleeping

409
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,480
on cozy sheets. It's actually very odd to think how

410
00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:37,160
much time I spend with the Cozy Earth sheets, but

411
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:39,279
that is inevitable.

412
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,279
Speaker 3: Well, we do spend what a third of our lifetimes

413
00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:45,240
asleep in our beds, so it makes sense, right. So

414
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,319
cod the Earth uses only the best fabrics and textiles

415
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,359
that provide the ultimate ingredient for a luxurious softness that

416
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,279
lets you sleep like a baby. And they're not just soft.

417
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,160
Their weave fabric is enhanced for durability that won't pull of.

418
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,000
All Cozy Earth betting products have a one hundred night

419
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,559
sleep trial and ten year warranty. That's how much Cozy

420
00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:10,599
Earth believes in them. So make sleep a priority. Now.

421
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,440
Visit cozyearth dot com and use our exclusive code Ricochet

422
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,599
for up to forty percent off Cozy Earth's best selling sheets, towels,

423
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:26,319
pajamas and more. That's cozyearth dot com code Ricochet, And

424
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,759
if you get a post purchase survey, tell them you

425
00:24:28,839 --> 00:24:32,000
heard about Cozy Earth right here from the Ricochet Podcast.

426
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,039
And so we thank Cozy Earth for sponsoring this the

427
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:40,240
Ricochet Podcast. All right, Christopher, we're back. But before I

428
00:24:40,279 --> 00:24:43,480
turn you back to Peter for his completely unfounded criticism,

429
00:24:43,519 --> 00:24:46,279
I'll just say that I enjoyed you saying that one

430
00:24:46,279 --> 00:24:48,799
of the subtexts of the of the book is, as

431
00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:51,440
you put it, read another book, something that's not on

432
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,799
the regular lists. And you said you thought of calling

433
00:24:53,799 --> 00:24:56,160
the book read another book, but the publisher wisely said

434
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,319
that wouldn't attract a lot higher You know, I do

435
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,359
remember from back in what sixties and seventies, was either

436
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,400
Jerry Rubin or Abbie Hoffman or one of those old

437
00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:09,079
yippies had a book that they called Steal this book. Yes, anyway,

438
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,359
so I kind of think read another book was maybe

439
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:13,240
not such a bad idea.

440
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:15,519
Speaker 6: Anyway, would have been a more fun title. My title

441
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,799
just tells you exactly you know, exactly what you're getting.

442
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,400
That's the advantage of thirteen novels conservatives will love.

443
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,519
Speaker 5: Thirteen novels conservatives will love. And as I so read

444
00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:30,680
the book, read Christopher's essays about each novel, because the

445
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,440
son of a bitch writes just beautifully. Boy does it

446
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,480
annoy me to see to see somebody coming up behind me,

447
00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:39,960
who's going to who's already in some ways past me?

448
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,160
Boy do I hate? I just stick my leg out,

449
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,680
hoping you'll trip over it somehow or other. The novel

450
00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:49,920
I decided, I resolved, and I recommend this resolution to everybody.

451
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:54,079
Read Christopher's book, read the essays one by one, and

452
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,960
then take the books that you haven't already read and

453
00:25:57,039 --> 00:26:00,240
read them. And I have to confess in the final chat,

454
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,599
I never I read about but never read The Children

455
00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:06,279
of Men by P. D. James. And then I have

456
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,839
never read anything by leaf Anger Christopher recommends peace like

457
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,559
a River. Nor have I honestly even heard of Christopher

458
00:26:14,599 --> 00:26:15,319
Biha Beja.

459
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:15,599
Speaker 3: How is that?

460
00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:16,039
Speaker 5: I don't even know.

461
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 6: I think it's be yea Christopher.

462
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,279
Speaker 5: Beha the index of self destructive arts. So I said, terrific,

463
00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:25,160
I'm going to take this and do what I think

464
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,039
everybody ought to do. Get the book, read the essays,

465
00:26:28,079 --> 00:26:30,960
and then read what you haven't already read. And so

466
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:37,000
I got to Waverley. What were you thinking? I was thinking,

467
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,000
I addresses all over the place.

468
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 6: It is the Fun's have the fun.

469
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,319
Speaker 5: It is like watching your life drift by in some

470
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:54,319
muddy river that just trickles on path. Furthermore, it's nobody's

471
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,920
favorite book by Walter Scott. I can't find a good

472
00:26:57,079 --> 00:26:59,200
edition of it even on Amazon. I can't find a

473
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,440
good edition to a reduced bookstore.

474
00:27:01,519 --> 00:27:04,519
Speaker 6: Go ahead, this is all. This is slander and calumny.

475
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 5: Okay, So why did you choose every book with knights

476
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,319
and armor specializes in calumny?

477
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 6: So ivan Hoe is great, and in some way ivan

478
00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:20,440
Hoe is his best structured novel. But Walter Scott's best

479
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,880
novels are the one set in Scotland, one of the

480
00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:27,440
one factor in determining what books to include in this

481
00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:31,279
In my book, all of these book novels you can

482
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:37,079
find easily in paperback editions, including Waverley uh Penguin World

483
00:27:37,079 --> 00:27:41,000
Classics and Oxford World Penguin Classics. In Oxford World Classics

484
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:46,160
editions of these are easy to find. Conservatives throughout history,

485
00:27:46,279 --> 00:27:48,839
or at least since Walter Scott was writing have loved

486
00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:53,240
Walter Scott. G. K. Chesterton Russell kirk Kirk called him

487
00:27:53,279 --> 00:27:56,720
basically Burkie, and he did more to spread Edmund Burke's

488
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,720
ideas than Burke himself did. Scott was the most significant

489
00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:06,119
novelist of the Romantic era and arguably the nineteenth century

490
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,880
until Dickens came along. And and yes, I'm not forgetting

491
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,640
about Jane Austen. When George Elliott writes about the Romantic

492
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,119
period in Middle March, to establish the setting, she has

493
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,759
all of her characters talk about Walter Scott because he

494
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,480
was such a big deal. And the digressions, I think

495
00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:25,799
are half the fun. It is difficult because it's he's

496
00:28:25,839 --> 00:28:27,920
writing about a time period we don't know about. He's

497
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,920
writing about the Jacobite Uprising. But it's such an important

498
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,400
novels novel for conservatives to know because a it conveys

499
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,720
this really important point that it's not enough just to

500
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,680
read and not enough to Yeah, not to read widely,

501
00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:44,920
but you need to read with some purpose. You need

502
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,440
to read, and especially if you're young, you need people

503
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,599
to guide you when you read. So nowadays we see

504
00:28:50,599 --> 00:28:53,599
a young person reading something below their grade level or

505
00:28:53,599 --> 00:28:56,160
something we think, oh, at least he's reading. But that's

506
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,799
not that can be dangerous. And Scott is also important

507
00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:02,279
for conservatives. As I said, he's Burkeian and this novel

508
00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:05,119
is I think one of his most Burkian novels because

509
00:29:05,119 --> 00:29:08,519
it shows the d reminds us of the dangers of

510
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:14,400
revolution and sudden change rather than incremental change and gradual process.

511
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 5: Oh all right, I'm sold. I'm sold.

512
00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 6: And also it's fun it's funny, Christopher.

513
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: I would like you to account for my failures. I

514
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,319
have read one book.

515
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 6: Can I guess which book you read? Is it Scoop?

516
00:29:31,119 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: That's right? That's right?

517
00:29:32,519 --> 00:29:32,759
Speaker 3: Now?

518
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: Yes, now, yes, now here's the thing.

519
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,799
Speaker 1: I have read everything evil and War, right, Yeah, I

520
00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:45,160
have read I think everything else from George j Elliott

521
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,839
except Daniel there on THEE And then if you put

522
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,680
a bunch of books in front of me by the

523
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,039
same author, I've probably been through those for a whole

524
00:29:54,079 --> 00:29:56,799
bunch of Jane Austen. I read everything Jane Austen wrote,

525
00:29:56,799 --> 00:29:58,599
all well Shakespeare.

526
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: So here's my question.

527
00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: And as somebody who's not as we well read as

528
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,319
I would like to be or or could be, but

529
00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:11,799
is nevertheless not a slout, why haven't I read all

530
00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:13,880
the books on this list or more than one of them?

531
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,559
So there's going to be something about these books because

532
00:30:16,599 --> 00:30:21,160
you say in the book conservatives probably haven't read them.

533
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,039
That's a very good guess, at least in my case.

534
00:30:23,319 --> 00:30:26,000
Why haven't they read these ones? Because I recognize a

535
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,079
lot of the authors. I just haven't read these books.

536
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 6: I think part of it is going back to what

537
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,799
I was saying earlier. We're just conservatives in particular are

538
00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:36,599
stuck in a rut about the same the same handful

539
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,839
of novels. So if you talk to somebody about George Elliott,

540
00:30:39,839 --> 00:30:41,240
it's gonna be about Middle March.

541
00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, But why, it's my question, Like why is.

542
00:30:43,759 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 6: Because because the books you're familiar with are great. There's

543
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,759
It's the point, isn't that those novels are bad, but

544
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:54,640
they Jane Austen, for example, Jane Austen is obviously excellent. Yeah,

545
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,119
the only thing bad about Jane Austen is that she

546
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,759
distracts us from everybody else who was good at her time,

547
00:31:00,839 --> 00:31:03,480
except for Mary Shelley, and we still read Frankenstein. I

548
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,759
include Walter Scott, as I mentioned, he was very important

549
00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:12,599
and widely read. I also include my Jane Austen like

550
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,000
novel is Evelina by Fanny Bernie Francis. Bernie. Austin loved

551
00:31:17,039 --> 00:31:18,880
her and when you read this novel you'll see why.

552
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,200
You'll see its influence on Jane Austen, especially pride and prejudice.

553
00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:25,240
But we don't talk about it because there are just

554
00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:28,200
over the time. Certain books assume a place in the

555
00:31:28,279 --> 00:31:32,680
cannon that they do deserve, but other books that arguably

556
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,119
also deserve that place get overshadowed.

557
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: But what I'm driving at, and perhaps this is a

558
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:42,480
difficult question, but is Daniel Deronda a worse book than

559
00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:46,759
Middle March or is it just abtry The Middle marchals

560
00:31:46,759 --> 00:31:49,920
I've read Silas Manner as well, are the ones that

561
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,119
my school encouraged and that people talk about.

562
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:54,559
Speaker 2: I mean, why is that.

563
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 6: I think Middle March is a little bit better than

564
00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:03,920
Daniel Deronda. Okay, but for the purposes of my novel,

565
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,480
of my book, Daniel Deronda, I think is more interesting

566
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,920
in some ways. I think Daniel Deronda is more thought provoking.

567
00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:14,200
It is still an excellent novel, but it's one that

568
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,839
I think is overlooked because Middle March gets deserved attention

569
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,240
some of the later books I write about, I just

570
00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:25,720
don't think. I think conservatives have an aversion to later

571
00:32:25,839 --> 00:32:28,279
novels like.

572
00:32:27,839 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 5: Conservatives conservatives of myself.

573
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think after like after after WAW,

574
00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:37,519
we get a little bit skeptical. But Muriel Spark, I

575
00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:40,960
include the girls of Slender Means she was She's if

576
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,799
you like WAW, you're gonna like Muriel Spark. She's she

577
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,559
was also a Catholic convert. She was less orthodox in

578
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,400
her belief but she's about as funny as WAW. Formally

579
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,599
more interesting than WAW. And then vs. Night Paul. I

580
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,119
think he has some important lessons for conservatives. He was

581
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,920
loathed by liberal academics because he pushed back against postcolonialism,

582
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,559
and he won a Pulitzer. I mean, he was recognized

583
00:33:04,599 --> 00:33:06,680
as a great novelist, but I think for whatever reason,

584
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,359
we're skeptical of him. And then I wanted to include

585
00:33:10,359 --> 00:33:14,160
twenty first century novels to make clear that people are

586
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,359
still doing this. People great, great novels are still still

587
00:33:17,359 --> 00:33:19,839
being written, and not every novel coming out is just

588
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,359
woke stuff to run away from.

589
00:33:23,519 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 3: Christopher can I ask what twenty first century novels were

590
00:33:26,519 --> 00:33:28,720
on your possible candidate list. I'm curious about this.

591
00:33:29,319 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 5: Well.

592
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 6: The ones I included were Leif Vanger, Piece Like a

593
00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:34,720
River and Christopher Beja Index of Self Destructive Acts. I

594
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,079
considered including Gilead by Marilyn Robinson, which is one of

595
00:33:40,079 --> 00:33:43,200
the great novels of the century so far, but I

596
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,200
thought a lot of people have read that. I considered

597
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,680
including Cormick McCarthy, but again, I think a lot of

598
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,559
conservatives are familiar with Cormick McCarthy. There are a lot

599
00:33:52,599 --> 00:33:55,880
of people already saying read Cormick McCarthy. I wanted to

600
00:33:56,119 --> 00:33:59,400
advocate novels that were a little more obscure, but I

601
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,160
think I think I prefer them more than Cornmick McCarthy.

602
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 5: Frankly, may I offer an answer, at least a partial

603
00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:12,159
answer to Charlie. In my reading of Christopher's book thirteen

604
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:17,360
Novels conservatives will love but probably haven't read, I don't

605
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,440
take Christopher, who is with us and can correct me

606
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,119
if I'm wrong. I don't take Christopher as actually attempting

607
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:28,119
to establish to add these books to the canon, or

608
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:33,559
to establish an alternative canon. I take Christopher. I take

609
00:34:33,599 --> 00:34:37,960
this guide as an exploration not only of these thirteen

610
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:45,800
novels and novelists, but as, in some ways the presentation

611
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:51,239
of Christopher's scalia. And it turns out that taking Chris

612
00:34:51,519 --> 00:34:56,920
as a guide is worth it. He's that good. So

613
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,840
it may strike you, as I have to say it

614
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,400
struck me in some regards. I'm still a little I'm

615
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,559
still a little ticked off about Waverley because it's going

616
00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:08,519
to take me hours more to get through that thing.

617
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,000
But Christopher's written a really good book and it's fascinating.

618
00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:16,960
And just because he thinks this is the point. Yeah,

619
00:35:17,039 --> 00:35:21,760
Christopher is so good that because he thinks these thirteen

620
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:27,000
novels are important, they are important. By the way, I am.

621
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 6: I love that.

622
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:29,559
Speaker 3: I am going to.

623
00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 5: Make a Yeah, well, I figured you would tell Adele

624
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,360
to send the check to my home Adgry. So I

625
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,119
have a confession to make, and it really is a confession.

626
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,840
As far as I am aware, and unless by accident,

627
00:35:44,639 --> 00:35:49,559
I have never read a novel written in the present century. Yeah,

628
00:35:49,159 --> 00:35:52,960
but under Christopher's guidance, I'm going to read, and I'm

629
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,039
going to start with these two.

630
00:35:55,039 --> 00:35:57,599
Speaker 6: There have been a lot of great novels over the

631
00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:00,920
last twenty five years, and many of them don't espouse

632
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,000
conservative views. I'm a big fan of Jonathan Franzen's novels.

633
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,039
Nobody would confuse him with the conservative or expressing conservative ideas.

634
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,840
But yeah, I Peter, I think a lot of conservatives

635
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,840
share your wariness. But I think we were missing out

636
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,519
when we do that. And if I can give a

637
00:36:18,559 --> 00:36:21,880
plug for one more novel, I write about this one

638
00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:25,400
that Zora Neil Hurston's Their Eyes Were Watching God. That's

639
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:31,199
probably the most widely read book I cover it, which

640
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,159
she died in nineteen sixty. Really nobody knew about her.

641
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,559
She had some success in her lifetime, and then she

642
00:36:36,639 --> 00:36:40,400
faded out and died in obscurity and poverty. And then

643
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,880
the novelist Alice Walker kind of resurrected her career in

644
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,199
the seventies and now her novel is the most assigned

645
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,960
novel by an American woman in colleges across the country.

646
00:36:53,079 --> 00:36:54,519
Speaker 5: That's why I've stayed away from it.

647
00:36:54,599 --> 00:36:57,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly, and that I think is okay, bad sign.

648
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,639
I think conservatives are wary of that. And uh when

649
00:37:02,679 --> 00:37:08,519
she Alice Walker revived her reputation in part because Hearston

650
00:37:08,599 --> 00:37:11,440
was presented as a This was present presented as a

651
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,519
black feminist novel, and there are feminist elements, but it's

652
00:37:15,679 --> 00:37:19,599
much more complicated than that. But conservatives, I think will

653
00:37:19,599 --> 00:37:22,760
love this. Hurston was really, really conservative. She was a

654
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,280
she was an American patriot. She hated communism. She was

655
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,960
she was so conservative. She hated Brown v Board. She

656
00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:31,760
thought it was a bad decision because, in part because

657
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,880
it it assumed that black students could only learn if

658
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,079
white people were around them, which is ironically a progressive

659
00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:45,000
argument today, and their eyes were watching God. Has some

660
00:37:45,079 --> 00:37:49,719
really conservative arguments and points about about race and racial progress.

661
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,039
And there's a great passage in which Hurston kind of

662
00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:57,719
subtly defends the reputation and accomplishments of Booker T. Washington

663
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,960
and his emphasis on self reliance education. But like you, Peter,

664
00:38:02,079 --> 00:38:03,760
I think a lot of conservatives and I know I

665
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,199
was too. We're wary of this novel because of because

666
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,039
it was so popular. It's a you know, contrarian instinct.

667
00:38:11,639 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 5: Here's the last largish question for you. You've got to

668
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,480
go on to other podcasts and sell your book. The

669
00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:23,159
last largest question is this We now have, oh, depending

670
00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:25,719
on how you count it, three decades at least, maybe

671
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,800
even half a century of the American Academy saying we

672
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,119
need to deconstruct novels, we need to read them through

673
00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:38,320
the lens of gender studies. On and on it goes,

674
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,079
and there's not a word of that in your book.

675
00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:48,039
You don't even take the time to refute this nonsense.

676
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:53,760
You just ignore it. You present essays about these novels

677
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,440
as if you were wearing a tweet jacket with the

678
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,639
stem of your pipe sticking out of one pocket in

679
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,079
a small Midwestern college in nineteen fifty five.

680
00:39:06,559 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 6: My author photo, I am actually wearing a tweet jacket.

681
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:15,440
So you're close. Because I don't think this was written

682
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,320
for the general reader, and I don't think the general

683
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,679
reader cares about that, And I think there's some hope

684
00:39:20,679 --> 00:39:23,719
even in the Academy. There is kind of a there's

685
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,599
a little bit of a movement afoot, not led by conservatives,

686
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:33,440
led by center left professors to move to a more

687
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,400
traditional way of teaching literature because they see that the

688
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,639
English major is dying, and so is a history major.

689
00:39:39,679 --> 00:39:42,280
The humanities in general are in trouble, and it's people

690
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,960
are realizing, even people in the Academy are realizing it's

691
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:50,519
because they've politicized these novels and have over theorized them. So,

692
00:39:50,599 --> 00:39:53,639
I mean, I have some passing references, especially in my

693
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:59,000
chapter on my Antonia by Willa Cather, I have a

694
00:39:59,039 --> 00:40:01,280
nod to some of the amagy Academy is doing. But

695
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,760
I just think the average reader doesn't care about that.

696
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,480
They just want to know. They want to enjoy the

697
00:40:07,599 --> 00:40:12,039
novels themselves, and they're open to deeper meanings. But you know,

698
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:17,800
only so far. It's easy to to become the target

699
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,239
of satire with some of these readings. So yeah, I

700
00:40:20,599 --> 00:40:23,159
just I really focus on the novels and the context

701
00:40:23,199 --> 00:40:26,679
of the novels and generally avoid I really don't get

702
00:40:26,679 --> 00:40:28,320
into the theory behind them at all.

703
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: What is your favorite book on this list and why lovely.

704
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 6: When I started the list, I would have said Waverley,

705
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,280
But I think now it is My Antonia.

706
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:48,159
Speaker 1: Okay, I listen.

707
00:40:50,119 --> 00:40:54,159
Speaker 3: To me, I say, listeners can't see the shocked book

708
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,159
on Peter's face.

709
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 6: No, I am a I am a Walter. I'm a

710
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,400
big Walter Scott stand but no, Antonia is such a

711
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:06,280
moving and powerful depiction of uh, to use the maybe

712
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,599
cheesy term, the American dream, and it's it's about the

713
00:41:09,639 --> 00:41:13,559
success and happiness that immigrants can find in the United States.

714
00:41:13,559 --> 00:41:17,760
It doesn't it doesn't idealize immigration. It doesn't suggest that

715
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,599
all immigrants will find happiness and success here. And Peter,

716
00:41:21,679 --> 00:41:25,559
I quote, I quote your boss Ronald Reagan and his

717
00:41:26,039 --> 00:41:30,400
one of his speeches about the contributions of immigrants, and

718
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,280
obviously that this novel is the early twentieth century and

719
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:38,400
the situation is very different now. But well, heck, I'm

720
00:41:38,519 --> 00:41:41,199
I'm on a podcast with an immigrant who has made

721
00:41:41,199 --> 00:41:44,360
a couple of contributions to the American Dream.

722
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 5: So probation, let's not get carried away about cooking.

723
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 2: But I also learned, yes, I think might be now.

724
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 6: I also love My Antonia because it features a big

725
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,000
family and there aren't many novels that have big family,

726
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,400
and Antonia finds happiness in part through her her many

727
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,480
many children, and this comes towards the end of the

728
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,360
novel and it's a very moving scene for me.

729
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 3: Well, Christopher, congratulations on the book. Once again. For listeners,

730
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,960
it's thirteen novels every conservatives you read, but you probably haven't.

731
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,480
That's close enough, I think close enough. Yeah. Now, I'll

732
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:26,840
say this in closing, unlike Peter's confused, indignant rants about

733
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,039
what you've done this, I only have one complaint out

734
00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:32,800
of everything I've read, including the footnotes. By the way,

735
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,119
I love your footnotes. I'm an academic nerd too, and

736
00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:39,400
so don't ignore the footnotes. Readers, you confess that you

737
00:42:39,519 --> 00:42:43,119
don't like Walker Percy, and I don't know. I know

738
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,360
those are fighting words, man, I'm sorry, they just are.

739
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:46,639
But that's for another occasion.

740
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,119
Speaker 6: So Steve, can I just say, I know, I feel

741
00:42:50,159 --> 00:42:53,440
like it's a guilty displeasure. I feel like I should

742
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,199
like him, but I've just never enjoyed any of his

743
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:56,119
novels very much.

744
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, they do take a little bit of work, and

745
00:43:00,159 --> 00:43:03,280
I get all that. But anyway, thank you for joining us. Christopher, Congratulations,

746
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,159
on the book and to our listeners, everyone should go

747
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:05,840
out and buy it.

748
00:43:06,199 --> 00:43:09,079
Speaker 6: All right, thank you guys very much. Great talking to you, Chris.

749
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 5: Congratulations you bastard.

750
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,599
Speaker 3: Well you know on that point, Peter, I mean, as

751
00:43:16,639 --> 00:43:20,639
I read the book and thought about it, Christopher is

752
00:43:20,639 --> 00:43:23,400
making me feel quite old, I have to say, and

753
00:43:23,559 --> 00:43:27,159
that's why I need help of today's second sponsor, Qualitia Senalytic.

754
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,400
Qualitia s Analytic is at the frontier of what is

755
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,440
currently possible in the science of human aging. Snalytics are

756
00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:39,039
a science field that is revolutionizing human aging. The big

757
00:43:39,159 --> 00:43:42,719
culprit behind that middle aged feeling can be sines and cells,

758
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,880
that is, zombie cells that linger in your body after

759
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,119
their useful function, wasting your energy and resources. And I

760
00:43:49,159 --> 00:43:51,800
certainly have a surplus of those I think around my midsection.

761
00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:55,320
So the accumulation of zombie sales can lead to less energy,

762
00:43:55,719 --> 00:44:00,760
slower workout recovery, joint discomfort, and basically just feeling like me.

763
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,320
Qualitas Analytic is a groundbreaking clinically tested supplement with nine

764
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,360
vegan plant derived compounds that help your body naturally eliminate

765
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,400
sed essen cells, helping you feel years younger in just months.

766
00:44:13,599 --> 00:44:16,039
Here's how it works. You take it just two days

767
00:44:16,079 --> 00:44:20,119
a month, helping your body naturally eliminate zombie cells to

768
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,159
age better at the cellular level. I know James has

769
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,400
tried it and uses it, and I think Rob Long

770
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,480
has used it too. Peter, lot of them are with

771
00:44:28,559 --> 00:44:30,599
us today, so you'll have to take their word for it.

772
00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:35,960
Experience the science of feeling younger. Go to qualitialife dot

773
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,000
com backslash ricochet for up to fifty percent off your

774
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:45,119
purchase and use code ricochet for additional fifteen percent. That's

775
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,840
qualitialife dot com slash ricochet for an extra fifteen percent

776
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,280
off your purchase. Your older self will thank you and

777
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:58,960
thanks to Qualia for sponsoring this the Ricochet Podcast. One

778
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,880
of the things this is the three or four books

779
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,159
on Christopher's list I have read. I read a long

780
00:45:03,199 --> 00:45:05,960
time ago, and I've I need to reread them because

781
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,360
I've really kind of forgotten them. But I have to say,

782
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,559
I mean, you know, Scoop is one that I do

783
00:45:10,679 --> 00:45:14,440
go back to once in a while, along with Charles.

784
00:45:14,679 --> 00:45:16,199
It's got some wonderful stuff in it.

785
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,199
Speaker 5: But by the way, can we agree that Charlie's Charlie's

786
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,719
question was really quite a remarkable display of what I

787
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:27,599
think any properly trained psychiatrist would describe as passive aggression.

788
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,519
I am ignorant, Christopher said, Charlie, I have read only

789
00:45:31,599 --> 00:45:34,199
one book of the thirteen you list here. On the

790
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,239
other hand, I have read the Bible and Greek. I

791
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,559
have read all of Shakespeare. I have read everything by

792
00:45:40,639 --> 00:45:43,360
Walter Scott, except of course this one. I mean, it

793
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,519
was really quite a question that Charlie put can.

794
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: I just wanted to be clear that, unlike with say, movies,

795
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,559
which I really am truly ignorant about, although I'm trying

796
00:45:53,559 --> 00:45:55,920
to fill the gaps, I have read a lot of books.

797
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,639
Speaker 2: I just hadn't read these ones.

798
00:45:58,199 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: I thought it was I thought it was ad mobly

799
00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:04,639
honest to say, hey, I've read one of these thirteen books.

800
00:46:05,159 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 5: Well charge, I wanted to set.

801
00:46:06,639 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: It in the right context, you know. I didn't want

802
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:13,360
to sound like I couldn't read right right, all right, Well, right,

803
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,599
you guys, before we go today, I wonder if either

804
00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:18,480
of you have any quick thoughts on things that will

805
00:46:18,519 --> 00:46:20,400
be on the minds of listeners from the news.

806
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,679
Speaker 3: So we've just seen this, this Trump tour of the

807
00:46:24,679 --> 00:46:28,239
Middle East, that's been Oh my lord quite the box office, right,

808
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,000
I mean, he certainly has the visuals down better than anybody,

809
00:46:31,039 --> 00:46:34,159
I think, Peter sins Ronald Reagan, right, Uh, And I

810
00:46:34,199 --> 00:46:35,920
don't know, do either you have any sort of summary

811
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,880
thoughts on what you observed happened in the last few days.

812
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:44,159
Speaker 5: I'm happy to go. And my summary thought is help me,

813
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,039
help me because and maybe this is a little bit

814
00:46:49,079 --> 00:46:53,119
like your ad for quality that if you came up

815
00:46:53,199 --> 00:46:56,519
as I did under Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush,

816
00:46:56,639 --> 00:47:01,480
Donald Trump is really hard to take. And the idea

817
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:06,000
that he would accept a seven forty seven from cutter

818
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:13,320
and so, and this notion of these unbelievable images of him,

819
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:18,760
these arab dances as he enters vast palaces, all of which,

820
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,559
of course is our money extorted by these tinpot dictators

821
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:28,119
over there, recycled into vast palaces, and so all of

822
00:47:28,159 --> 00:47:32,679
it strikes me is so unseemly. Stop. Then we have

823
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,840
on the in the Capitol the Republicans with a very

824
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,159
slender majority in the House of Representatives, led by Mike Johnson,

825
00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:44,320
whom I read and whom I will be interviewed, who

826
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,960
I will be interviewing in a week. I read. Mike

827
00:47:47,039 --> 00:47:50,400
Johnson is a good guy, and in fact, he strikes

828
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,840
me as the most intriguing story in Washington because it's

829
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,199
a good guy who's doing an impossible job and he's

830
00:47:55,199 --> 00:48:00,000
doing it. However, on the latest news accounts, they're stuff.

831
00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:02,079
And do you know what's going to have to happen.

832
00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:05,079
Mike Johnson is going to have to have Donald Trump

833
00:48:05,199 --> 00:48:09,280
call half a dozen members of the House of Representatives

834
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,159
and swing them back into line. And so this man,

835
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,119
whom I find just so hard to take, turns out

836
00:48:15,119 --> 00:48:17,960
to be indispensable help.

837
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 3: Right right, Well, I mean, first of all, I'm glad

838
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,239
you pivoted to the tax bill, Peter, because if you

839
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,559
listen to our episode last week with Ben Dominich, it's

840
00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:28,039
pretty clear that Trump's not paying much attention. He just

841
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:30,280
wants a big bill to sign and doesn't seem to

842
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,199
care that much about the details. And that's a big mistake.

843
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,960
As you know, Reagan was deeply involved in the details

844
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,079
of both of his big tax bills. I will add

845
00:48:39,079 --> 00:48:42,880
this observation and then get Charles thought, which is one

846
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,000
thing is different right now that I'm surprised no one

847
00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:47,960
is mentioning in the analysis of it which is we

848
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,920
are no longer supplicants for arab oil. We now go

849
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,679
there on the energy question from a position of strength,

850
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,719
and I correct. I think that changes the dynamics to

851
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:01,679
some extent. Now that doesn't bear on your you're puzzlement

852
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,880
over the airplane and certain other aspects of the trip,

853
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,320
But I do think it's a different world now, just

854
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:07,760
for that one very important fact.

855
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:13,559
Speaker 1: Charles Well, I'm not a foreign politics buter so I will.

856
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 5: Are you really a reader when it comes.

857
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:16,599
Speaker 2: To it, No, apparently not.

858
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,280
Speaker 1: But I am going to join a militia over this

859
00:49:21,639 --> 00:49:26,360
tax bill, and in particular the salt provisions, which are

860
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:32,719
a disgrace. The very notion that is Floridian should pay

861
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,239
more for the same federal government because New York and

862
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,760
California are a profligate and can't handle their own affairs

863
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:42,400
is revolting per se. But as politics from Republicans, it

864
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,239
strikes me as being insane, because what's going to happen

865
00:49:46,159 --> 00:49:51,079
is they're going to massively increase the salt cap, probably

866
00:49:52,199 --> 00:49:56,000
without making changes to the alternative minimum tax or the

867
00:49:56,079 --> 00:49:58,320
tax rates, so people in those states will get a

868
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,679
better deal than they had prior to twenty seve, which

869
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:03,199
means that the governments of California and New Jersey and

870
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,079
Illinois and New York are going to increase spending in

871
00:50:08,119 --> 00:50:11,039
those states, make themselves more dysfunctional than they were before,

872
00:50:11,519 --> 00:50:15,239
have no effect on their own taxpayers, and then send

873
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:20,320
the bill to me. So I'm watching this Republican Party

874
00:50:21,119 --> 00:50:24,840
essentially reward the blue states that have made themselves into

875
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,280
national joke and punish Florida and other red states that

876
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,159
have done all the right things for ten years.

877
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 2: That's conservatism, is it? I? Just I despair?

878
00:50:35,599 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 5: Okay, Charlie, help Speaker Johnson out of the following bind

879
00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:42,719
He has two hundred and twenty Republicans. Yeah, there is

880
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:47,960
a midterm election coming. He must preserve, yeah, three four

881
00:50:48,159 --> 00:50:51,880
five seats in upstate New York. And he must preserve

882
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:58,159
this small but essential delegation of Republicans from here in California.

883
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:04,079
And if he's still any hope of passing any important

884
00:51:04,159 --> 00:51:06,400
legislation in the second half of Donald Trump's term, he

885
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,320
actually needs to pick up a couple of seats in

886
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,679
Orange County. And that's the reason for salt. It is

887
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,039
practical politics. How do you answer that?

888
00:51:14,119 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: Let me say, a couple of things. The first one is,

889
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:17,559
of course, it is true that there wouldn't be a

890
00:51:17,559 --> 00:51:20,039
Republican House majority without New York, but there also wouldn't

891
00:51:20,079 --> 00:51:24,719
be a Republican House majority without Florida. Governor DeSantis's map

892
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,960
that he pushed through and used a great deal of

893
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,239
political capital to push through is a reason too. So

894
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,880
if you end up punishing Florida, which is not a

895
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,440
swing state and the way it used to be but

896
00:51:34,559 --> 00:51:36,840
still could flip back in a couple of areas, then

897
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,440
you have the same problem as you have in New York. Second,

898
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,079
I accept as a matter of practical politics that you

899
00:51:44,159 --> 00:51:46,800
have to do something on salt and Donald Trump I

900
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,920
wish he hadn't, but did promise that he would during

901
00:51:50,039 --> 00:51:52,639
the election. But if you look at the moment at

902
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,000
how much of the space the headroom within the bill

903
00:51:56,199 --> 00:51:59,159
is being taken up by even the small assault offer

904
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,239
it is outing out everything else, it seems to me

905
00:52:02,639 --> 00:52:09,480
to be absolutely disproportionate as a percentage of what has

906
00:52:09,559 --> 00:52:14,519
been proposed. And so as somebody who is quite practical

907
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,880
and who understands that politics is not an exercise in

908
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:25,719
academic griping, I am not against deals. I know that

909
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,000
there were a lot of deals done in the Reagan

910
00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:33,760
tax bills as well. But look at the cost. And

911
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,360
I don't use that to imply that tax cuts cost money,

912
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,199
but given that they're trying to keep down the quote

913
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,039
unquote cost of these tax cuts, look at the cost

914
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:47,320
of salt one thing that Trump promised relative to everything

915
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:52,599
else that it's absolutely enormous. And the deal that they struck,

916
00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:55,280
which was thirty thousand dollars, which is very, very generous,

917
00:52:55,519 --> 00:52:58,760
was described by the New York delegation it's being insulting.

918
00:53:00,039 --> 00:53:02,159
I'm looking at this and I'll finish on this question.

919
00:53:03,159 --> 00:53:05,840
The reason this annoys me so much, Peter, is I'm

920
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:07,880
not a Trump guy. I'm not a MAGA guy, right

921
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,360
the listeners know this. But I do like a lot

922
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,039
of what Trump has done. And I thought the first

923
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,559
tax bill is terrific in twenty seventeen. But the argument

924
00:53:15,599 --> 00:53:19,559
that I get, the one I get often dripping in contempt,

925
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,760
is you don't understand, Charles. We needed Trump, We needed

926
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:28,320
MAGA because this squishy UNI Party driven by moderates and

927
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,519
the GOP just gives the farm away every time they

928
00:53:31,559 --> 00:53:35,400
subsidize Blue states. They won't defund Planned parenthood they block

929
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:40,119
conservative policy. And what I'm watching now is that. So

930
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,920
it's not that there is all of this opobrium being

931
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,760
thrown at Mike Lawler and the Democrats in New York

932
00:53:46,159 --> 00:53:49,280
as the Republicans in New York. It's being thrown at

933
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,719
Chip Roy and Thomas Massey and Ran Paul. So if

934
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:55,800
the argument is we live in the real world, we

935
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,039
have to keep a coalition together, that's fine. That was

936
00:53:59,079 --> 00:54:02,559
also true though in twenty thirteen. It was also true

937
00:54:02,559 --> 00:54:04,800
in twenty fifteen, in two thousand and six, in nineteen

938
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,039
eighty one. So if we're gonna argue we need Trump

939
00:54:08,039 --> 00:54:11,800
because otherwise we don't defund Planned parenthood, well we're giving

940
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,679
in to the moderates on not defunding Planned parented. If

941
00:54:14,679 --> 00:54:16,280
the argument is what we need Trump and we need

942
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,280
Maggot because otherwise we give away these subsidies to blue

943
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,400
states in the blue well, look, it's very very annoying

944
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,960
us a Floridian, to be far more conservative than these people,

945
00:54:27,159 --> 00:54:29,400
to live in a state that has done all of

946
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:34,519
the reforms that the Conservatives have wanted to do for

947
00:54:34,559 --> 00:54:39,360
fifty years, and to watch them molly coddling the moderate

948
00:54:39,519 --> 00:54:43,519
uniparty squishes that I was taught had been exiled.

949
00:54:44,039 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 2: That's what I'm annoyed about it. It's not that I

950
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,320
don't understand the need for practical politic.

951
00:54:48,519 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 5: Okaye, Charley, I just wanted to say one thing to Charlie. Charlie,

952
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:56,960
you're beautiful when you're angry.

953
00:54:57,079 --> 00:54:59,679
Speaker 3: Well, I was just gonna say, Peter, we'll mark Charles

954
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:04,679
down as undecided. Now it is hard to follow a

955
00:55:04,679 --> 00:55:08,239
an exquisite rant like that, any rant that includes molly coddling,

956
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,440
as you know, on number A ten on the scale.

957
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,400
But it's actually even worse than that, Charles. We left

958
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,079
out completely the number of Republicans trying to preserve a

959
00:55:16,079 --> 00:55:17,559
lot of the green energy booned dogs.

960
00:55:17,599 --> 00:55:19,079
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, right, that's the other bit.

961
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,679
Speaker 3: And you know that just blows my mind too. I mean,

962
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:23,760
it was very clever of the Biden people to direct

963
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,519
a lot of the money to red states. That was

964
00:55:25,519 --> 00:55:28,480
on purpose. And guess what it looks like. It's with

965
00:55:28,559 --> 00:55:31,360
an ace of succeeding in keeping all that This.

966
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 5: Is this is this is just this is the agony

967
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:39,119
of practical politics for conservatives. Well, I convert to the Steve.

968
00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:41,639
Steve will know the details on this, But I revert

969
00:55:41,679 --> 00:55:45,159
to this that when Ronald Reagan took office in January

970
00:55:45,199 --> 00:55:48,679
of nineteen eighty one, having promised to eliminate the Department

971
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:53,519
of Education, the Department of Education had been, in effect,

972
00:55:53,599 --> 00:55:56,800
had been in existence for one year. If there were

973
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:58,920
ever a time you could have killed it, it was then.

974
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,079
And Ed Poes told me that he went up to

975
00:56:02,079 --> 00:56:06,480
the Capitol Hill to discuss the Reagan agenda with our senators.

976
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,320
We had recaptured the Senate in nineteen eighty we were

977
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,639
in charge. And he came back to the White House

978
00:56:12,639 --> 00:56:16,559
and said, oh, my goodness, even the Republican senators are

979
00:56:16,599 --> 00:56:18,960
sticking up. They had already figured out how to use

980
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,440
the Department of Education to said benefits to their constituents,

981
00:56:22,519 --> 00:56:26,159
and they wanted to defend it, not eliminated. Unbelievable.

982
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,679
Speaker 3: But now, remember Peter though, that by my count in

983
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:33,039
nineteen eighty one, yes, the Republican Senate, but sixteen of them,

984
00:56:33,079 --> 00:56:35,800
that's my count. We're modern to liberals. You still have

985
00:56:36,159 --> 00:56:38,559
person Magmaflize, and nowadays you only had.

986
00:56:38,599 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 5: That wing of the party is gone now exactly, so

987
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,760
we have a better except for upstate New York, right well.

988
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,039
Speaker 3: But even there, I mean, at least Dephonic is one

989
00:56:46,039 --> 00:56:46,639
of the persons.

990
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 5: Accurate.

991
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 3: True, And look, look that's obviously this is very transparent.

992
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,760
It's in the interest of their constituents, and they're going

993
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:56,920
to do that. And it's hard to ask someone to

994
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,960
risk their seat for something except that's what Democrats did

995
00:57:00,039 --> 00:57:02,320
with Obamacare also other times.

996
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: Right, it's absolutely hard to ask someone to do that.

997
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,840
And I don't ask a result resent that, say, Mike

998
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,440
Lawa is trying to. What I resent is that all

999
00:57:11,559 --> 00:57:16,519
of the energy seems to be spent denouncing Rand Paul

1000
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,159
for saying, hang on a minute, this massively blows open

1001
00:57:20,239 --> 00:57:24,360
the budget deficit, rather than denouncing Mike Lawa.

1002
00:57:24,519 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 5: And I get that.

1003
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,599
Speaker 1: There is a political element, but then don't tell me

1004
00:57:27,639 --> 00:57:29,960
that you're pere and everyone else is a squish.

1005
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, yes, when it comes to it. When it

1006
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:34,400
comes to it, the Speaker is going to send the

1007
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,840
White House a list of half a dozen Republicans that

1008
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,360
he wants the President to call to get them to

1009
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,519
back into line. And on that list it's going to

1010
00:57:43,519 --> 00:57:47,559
be six conservatives, not six moderates. Correct, Yes, yeah, for

1011
00:57:47,559 --> 00:57:51,719
the most part, that's right, Let's get into line. That's right. Okay,

1012
00:57:52,079 --> 00:57:53,000
let's get out this way.

1013
00:57:53,039 --> 00:57:56,239
Speaker 3: I'll pile on to Charles's rant by saying that one

1014
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,440
of the things that's cheering to me right now is

1015
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,199
that we really do have Blue states on the up

1016
00:58:01,239 --> 00:58:05,719
against the wall, I mean, politically, fiscally, in various other ways.

1017
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:07,480
And so to give in now to help the Blue

1018
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:11,400
states is political malpractice of the highest order in that regard.

1019
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,639
I thought one of the most interesting things said this

1020
00:58:13,719 --> 00:58:17,719
week was not from not about the budget the tax bill,

1021
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,239
but it bears on this question. And it was Jamie Diamond,

1022
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,440
the CEO of JP Morgan, who was a Democrat by

1023
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,400
all accounts thought to have been a candidate for Treasury

1024
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,880
Secretary for President Kamala Harris. Had such a thing happened,

1025
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,199
and he said, I don't understand why we call it

1026
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:34,880
red tape. It ought to be called blue tape, because

1027
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,239
it's the Blue states that are the worst on regulation.

1028
00:58:37,679 --> 00:58:39,800
So when you have Jamie Diamond saying things like that,

1029
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,119
and you have, as we know out here, Peter, if

1030
00:58:42,159 --> 00:58:46,119
you're paying attention, Gavin Newsom's crab marching to the right

1031
00:58:46,159 --> 00:58:48,679
as fast as he possibly can on so many areas,

1032
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,159
this is not the time to go what's the old

1033
00:58:52,159 --> 00:58:53,159
line from Margaret Thatcher.

1034
00:58:53,199 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 5: This is not the kind of goes dobbly.

1035
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 3: George, yes, right, and let's not go wobbly your Republicans

1036
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,480
in the House and Senate. But that's where we are,

1037
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,280
and where we are is at the end of our

1038
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,920
hour together, so everyone should go out and by Christopher

1039
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,159
Scalia's book, we thank you for joining us. We thank

1040
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:13,519
our sponsor's cozy earth and quality of Synolytic. Please send

1041
00:59:13,559 --> 00:59:17,119
in your comments at Ricochet and we will see you

1042
00:59:17,239 --> 00:59:20,119
there in the comments and back here live again next week.

1043
00:59:20,239 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 5: Bye bye, guys Ricochet. Peas join the conversation.