WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:07.320 Well, whiskey, come and take my pain, my moneys, my ry, 2 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:09.160 oh whiskey. 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:12.439 Why think alone when you can drink it all In 4 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:17.440 with Ricochet's Three Whiskey Happy Hour, join your bartenders Steve Hayward, 5 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:25.679 John Yu and the International woman of Mystery, Lucretia. Where 6 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:26.679 the slap it appen? 7 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:27.280 David? 8 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:31.160 Ain't you baby? On the show taps? Gotta give me 9 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:32.479 and let that why? 10 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:37.960 Welcome everybody to this new experimental version one point zero 11 00:00:38.759 --> 00:00:43.039 of the Three Whiskey Happy Hour on Substack. I believe 12 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:46.320 this is the first time we are recording live on 13 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:50.920 the substack platform, rather than using entities hosted and created 14 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:56.679 by the People's Republic of China, so advances every day. 15 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:58.439 It's a great way to start out the new year. 16 00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:03.560 I'm joined by my co hosts Steve Heywards. Steve, where 17 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:06.000 are you? What are you doing? What's on that misbegotten 18 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:06.599 T shirt? 19 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:10.000 You called? It's a Reagan Library T shirt? I'll have 20 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:13.959 you know. Oh, you just just traced yourself as usual. 21 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:18.959 And Lucretia, where are you? And what is that lovely 22 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:21.040 sweatshirt you're wearing? To open the new. 23 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:26.680 Year, Blado's Cave Search and Rescue Team that's pretty cool. 24 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:28.319 I'm not a big. 25 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:32.079 Person on wearing shirts and things that say things or 26 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:34.439 advertise things, but this one was so cool I had 27 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:35.280 to make an exception. 28 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:39.359 Is uh now, Lucretia that sweatshirts open to so many 29 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:43.680 different interpretations? I mean, would you say that John Rawls 30 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:45.480 is the head of the search and rescue team? 31 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:46.319 Oh? 32 00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:50.040 My god, I would never say that. 33 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:53.319 I was about to say, John, But the of that 34 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:55.760 T shirt is obviously lost on you because you're going 35 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:57.719 to be the first person to be rescued by it. 36 00:01:57.959 --> 00:01:59.680 And you just pro and you just what. 37 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:06.280 Well, the great opening to the year and listeners and 38 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:09.240 those who've joined us live and I see they're growing 39 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:12.719 and growing already. The insults pour it on Steve not 40 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:18.319 fitting into the and to the mobile version of the 41 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:22.360 sub stack, which requires you to love at it vertically 42 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:25.479 rather horizontally. Very good, mister Fennel, I love it. Keep 43 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:26.080 him coming. 44 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:29.039 Oh he's the one to talk. Never mind, Okay. 45 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:34.840 We decided to spend the very first episode of the 46 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:39.319 two hundred and fiftieth year of the American Revolution and 47 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:43.919 the Declaration of Independence by talking about the American regime. 48 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:45.919 If that's what you want to call it the declaration 49 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:49.280 of independence revolution where it sits within this broader debate 50 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:53.680 we are having right now in the worlds of political 51 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:58.879 theory and constitutional law and everyday politics about whether we 52 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:02.840 are in a post liberal age. So I thought this 53 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:04.800 would be a great way as the host for this 54 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:10.719 first episode to kick off the is it sesquid centennial year? 55 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:16.759 Semi quinn It's it's it's semi quin centennial. It rolls 56 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:17.199 right off. 57 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:19.919 It's yeah, I got it wrong. All I know is 58 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:24.080 that the Washington Monument on July first had a great 59 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:28.840 display on it to kick off the two fiftieth. So oh, 60 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:32.479 Steve was just frozen, drinking, making himself larger and not 61 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:36.919 fitting in that little box. So now he's unfrozen. So 62 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:40.759 let's start off by asking first, I think we'll start 63 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:46.639 with Lucretia, what is in your mind liberalism and why 64 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:47.879 is it under attack? 65 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:53.319 Now, well, I'll let me start with the first one. Liberalism, 66 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:58.400 in the most basic sense, actually means liberated from politics. 67 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:03.639 That's what liberal. You are liberated when you are liberal. 68 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:09.159 That's what traditional classical liberalism means in the most fundamental sense, 69 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:14.439 and it means that in a way that is that 70 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:17.680 not really all that important, that classical understanding of it, 71 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:21.240 except that when you say liberated from politics, it means 72 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:27.000 that politics that you have a sphere of autonomy, a 73 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:32.199 sphere of privacy, personal autonomy into which the government does 74 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:35.680 not and should not intrude. That's really what we see 75 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:42.879 when we look at lack a classical liberalism. So if 76 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:46.879 we start with that idea, our founders are considered classical 77 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:52.079 liberals in the sense that they believed that government should 78 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:58.000 be for in the first place, proscriptive, not prescriptive as 79 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:02.399 the classicals would have had it right, meaning that laws 80 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:06.480 are in place to prevent you from doing things that 81 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:09.000 you shouldn't do, rather than to guide you to do 82 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:11.519 those things that you should do. I know Steve's looking 83 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:16.439 at either he's stuck or he's thinking I'm being oversimplifying here, 84 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:18.639 but I think it's important to keep it kind of simple, 85 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:23.759 and so our founding father's classical liberalism builds on the 86 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:28.879 basic notion of natural rights. Natural rights being those things 87 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:33.920 that human beings possessed prior to antecedent to any society, 88 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:41.560 social structure, or government, and government then exists, it's instituted 89 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:45.279 for the sole purpose of protecting those natural rights, which 90 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:50.720 unfortunately are insecure. They are not non existent absent government, 91 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:54.839 but they're insecure absent government. And so that leads to 92 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:57.560 all of the things that we find in our wonderful 93 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:01.839 Declaration of Independence, that claimed of the self evident truth 94 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.639 of human equality. That's how we know we have natural rights, 95 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:08.360 because no human being is born so superior to any 96 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:11.399 other that he or she's the ruler over others. That 97 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:13.959 means we are all our own rulers. That means we 98 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:18.079 have the natural right to life, liberty, property, the pursuit 99 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:23.000 of happiness, and that government is instituted again just for 100 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:27.319 the purpose of securing those rights. And it is that 101 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:31.600 understanding which we think of as classical liberalism, because it 102 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:35.480 is in fact a recognition that government isn't the end 103 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:37.439 all and be all right. 104 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:41.480 Steve that well, yeah, let me stuff up with Steve. 105 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:46.519 That definition. Is it so capacious that it would conclude 106 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:52.759 Justice Kennedy's decision and Obergefell upholding gay marriage as much 107 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:57.560 as it would uphold Richard Epstein's utter defense to the 108 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:01.079 limits of property rights. 109 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:03.079 Is a no to the first and probably yes to 110 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:05.560 the second. No to the first because the problem with justice. 111 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:08.720 Kennedy better stated in the famous Mystery of the Universe 112 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:10.800 clause right, which was what was that in casey? 113 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:12.800 What? What case was that? In one of the other? 114 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:15.759 But over a fella is the culmination? 115 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:19.000 I think, sure, exactly this in the Universe clause it says, 116 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:21.600 what is something like every individual gets to find their 117 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:24.519 own theory of the meaning of the universe. It's just ridiculous. 118 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:27.319 And so in other words, rights become detached from nature, 119 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.240 which is an important point. I thought for a minute, Lucretia, 120 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.319 your first sentence threw me, and then you recovered. I thought, 121 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.639 at first you said liberalism is the what do you 122 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:38.959 say that the individuals detached from politics? 123 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:40.040 I thought, oh, my. 124 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:44.839 Goodness, no, no, no, yes, I get I think that. 125 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:49.279 I thought politics liberate, that's it, liberated from politics. 126 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:50.839 I thought you were about to go full Carl schmid 127 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.079 on Us with that opening, which come back to me. 128 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:56.040 But I do it a little simpler, John, which is 129 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:00.319 what we call classical liberalism, although it's not really clascle. 130 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:02.079 We can say in some ways not if you think 131 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:06.120 the classics of antiquity, but it's lock and mill right. 132 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:08.240 So we see in a few points I say, it's 133 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:11.920 you know, a government by consent, individual, natural rights, property, 134 00:08:12.759 --> 00:08:16.519 and then also you know democracy, although that's gotten very sloppy, 135 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:19.560 but you know, he was big for parliamentary supremacy, which 136 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:22.040 was representation right. And then John Stewart Mail is what 137 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.120 he's the tribune of radical individualism. You know, everybody can 138 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:29.800 pursue their own self chosen ends, with the only limit 139 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:31.600 being you harm somebody else. 140 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.919 Right. So then we talk about now the big hot 141 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:37.679 new thing is post liberalism. 142 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:41.519 And I'm sort of interested that this is having such 143 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:44.000 a moment because most of the arguments being made are 144 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:46.879 not brand new. They've been around a long time, and 145 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:49.679 they've come from both the left and the right. At 146 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:53.759 the left relief forever because they hated Lock. That's Caral 147 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:57.480 Marx hated Lock right, and the progressives hated Lock, and 148 00:08:57.559 --> 00:09:01.440 some conservatives, starting with Burke, hated Lock right. Burke said 149 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:04.159 locke second Treatise was and I think on the quote 150 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:08.440 is the worst book ever written. But what Burke had 151 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:11.679 against it wasn't so much natural rights and so forth. 152 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:15.440 I though Burke's poblematic. He didn't like the right to revolution, 153 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:19.200 as it's explained in Lockey in terms. He thought that 154 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.279 that doctrine of natural rights was an invitation to revolution. 155 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.200 And there are people as early as say the French 156 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:30.080 thinker Joseph de Maistra, who said that Locke should be 157 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:34.279 implicated as the real cause of the French Revolution, not Rousseau, 158 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:37.559 which is the way I think that we do right. No, Luke, 159 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:39.960 I completely agree with the creature that that's wrong. I'm 160 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:42.799 just saying that this is an old argument from the right. 161 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.559 And then there's more I say. I think more interesting 162 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:49.960 versions like I went and justed off for the first 163 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.519 time in thirty years Robert Nisbet's Quest for Community, you 164 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.759 know book for the fifties, where just remember that what 165 00:09:56.799 --> 00:09:58.840 the liberals have been saying for a while, going back 166 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:02.279 to at least Lewis Hart's We've lost community. This individualism 167 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:06.440 is terrible. We've lost community and belongingness and togetherness. And 168 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:08.159 I think I've used this once before, but it's a 169 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:10.679 long time ago. Lucretia will remember our great late friend 170 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:14.399 John Weddgreen who said communitarianism is just a chicken shit 171 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:18.360 word for Socialism's I've always liked. I think it's absolutely right. 172 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:20.720 I'll stop there. We can go through particular points of 173 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:23.320 all this as we go. But that's liberalism. It's not 174 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:26.120 clear to me exactly what postliberalism means. While there's a 175 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:28.000 few people we can grab a hold of, including our 176 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:32.000 great friend Adrian for mules. 177 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:35.320 Let's move on then, and I think both of you 178 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:40.799 agree that the Declaration of Independence again which we're celebrating 179 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:43.720 the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of this year, is 180 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:48.240 the expression of classical liberalism, maybe one of the finest 181 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:53.039 expressions of classical liberalism, very much inspired by John Locke, 182 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.120 and under attack these days for both the left and 183 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.399 the right. And we've talked a law I Think on 184 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:02.519 the podcast us about the attack from the left through 185 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:05.799 the who I Think is symbol which is symbolized by 186 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:09.519 the sixteen nineteen Project and the idea that the Founding 187 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:16.120 was aimed really to preserve slavery. I just read or 188 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:19.399 listened to Gordon Wood, another of my favorites but not yours, 189 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:22.720 say that this is the sixteen nineteen projects. It's not history, 190 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.639 it's more like political propaganda. But it's also under attack now. 191 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:30.879 The Founding is under attacked from the right, from post liberals. 192 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.080 And so let me ask you both I'll try my 193 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:36.840 own definition of post liberalism, ask you what you think 194 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:42.360 of it. Postliberalism is, and then most importantly your response 195 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:46.720 is when we come back after this ad break, hopefully 196 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:57.279 for the micrib welcome back back, everybody. I hope the 197 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:01.720 last commercial forced everyone to experience pangs of hunger and 198 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:04.039 to rush out to McDonald's, use your gift cards on 199 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:07.679 the app, and they automated robotic chiosks to order your 200 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:11.039 pre formed spam. Phil A I love it makes me 201 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:15.480 hungry just thinking about it. So my looking at the 202 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:18.840 works of Patrick Denin who's a professor at Notre Dame, 203 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:21.639 and Adrian Vermule, a good friend of mine who's a 204 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:25.240 professor at Harvard Law School, in their writings, which are 205 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:29.799 advanced this idea of a common good conservativism in denise 206 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:34.639 case or a common good constitutionalism in Mule's case, they 207 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:38.159 both argue that the classical liberalism that both of you 208 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:44.080 have just described has failed. It has failed, I think, 209 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:48.399 in both of their views by destroying the institutions and 210 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:56.120 communities around which traditional society was formed. That the liberalism's 211 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:01.639 quest to unleash individual autonomy has resulted in the decline 212 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:07.440 of the family decline in religion, upswings in drug use 213 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:13.720 and aimlessness and welfare, and that liberalism because it has 214 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:19.279 no superior moral values that people should follow. As Lucretia 215 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:21.840 put it, it doesn't have a system to make you 216 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:24.320 do things, and only tries to impose a negative liberty. 217 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:29.159 The postliberals say that this lack of a morality has 218 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:32.799 led to the collapse of our society, and they would 219 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:35.799 argue that we have to return to a understanding of 220 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:40.840 politics or understanding of constitutional law that allows for the 221 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:44.720 imposition or that they would say imposition sounds too promotion 222 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:50.840 of positive morality in the citizenry. I think that's why 223 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:53.879 I think I'm trying to be fair. I'm not being 224 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:54.360 trying to. 225 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.200 Be fair John so well appreciate. 226 00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.320 Let's start with Well, let Steve has a quot he 227 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:03.559 wants to read, and it's a standing both standing between 228 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:06.360 Steve and the quote. Is that someone's standing between me 229 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:07.159 and the chief. 230 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:11.679 Yet, Yeah, don't get in a way this will be 231 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:15.200 an analogy free segment least. Well, First of all, two 232 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:16.840 quick things. One is I think we ought to put 233 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:20.080 it this restate what how you open John? 234 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:21.200 Uh? 235 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:24.519 You know, at the bi centennial in nineteen seventy six, 236 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.320 there was this one little leftist effort called the People's 237 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:30.519 bi Centennial Commission to trash the Founding, and it was 238 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.120 Jeremy Rifkin and a bunch of no names, and you know, 239 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:35.600 they got some attention, but not much. This year, we're 240 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:37.519 going to see a ton of it from the left, 241 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:40.919 you know, the sixteen nineteen project you mentioned. But then 242 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:43.200 at the same time we're going to see challenges to 243 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:47.519 the Declaration from the right. And so, for example, we 244 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:50.000 mentioned Deneen. I came across this quote from Denean from 245 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:52.320 a speech he gave recently, where he said, I'll do 246 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:56.159 some quotes here. We don't need a return to the Founding. 247 00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:59.960 He said that conservatives are supporting a philosophy of pro 248 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.960 offlicacy and hubris and the Founding is another quote here, 249 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:08.639 a highly tandentious and abstract understanding of America that rests 250 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:13.120 on libertarian wish casting about the Founding. So we're gonna 251 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:15.720 hear that from the rights saying, you know, we really 252 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:16.399 we shouldn't be. 253 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:18.879 Looking back for help to the Founding and all the 254 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:20.600 rest of that. Now common good. 255 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:22.759 I've got a lot of points, but I'll just make 256 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:25.159 this one and turn it over to Lucretia. It is 257 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:29.679 true that common good under liberalism is set to represent 258 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:33.960 merely the sum total of individual preferences, uh, and and 259 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.919 that or or the sum of political accommodations we make 260 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:40.879 through the bargaining of our legislative process. And I think 261 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.159 that's mistaken. I think the founders did have an idea 262 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:46.559 of the common good, and and uh, you know, and 263 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:47.159 that's what. 264 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:49.360 Can be and should be recovered. And I'll stop there. 265 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:52.320 I have a lot more observations, but that's my opener. 266 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:55.759 So I want to I want to sort of take 267 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.039 it back and blame Steve a little bit from his 268 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:01.960 opening for the pro First of all, John Stuart Mill 269 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:05.600 has nothing to do with what our founder's understanding of 270 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:13.000 classical liberalism was and the idea that those Europeans can't mill. 271 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:18.399 All of those people have messed up modern people's way 272 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.240 of thinking. That's problematic, But the real problem John gave it, 273 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:28.279 I thought an excellent sort of a summary of common good, constitutionalism, 274 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:33.159 common did whatever. Those things are just silly failures to 275 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:37.559 understand what's really happened here in America. The founders had 276 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:42.279 classical liberalism, which did indeed put the emphasis on the individual. 277 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:48.240 But there's nothing in the Framers, in the Framers thought, 278 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:51.600 even in the things that they put together, that dismisses 279 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:56.360 the idea that virtue and a virtuous citizenry is necessary. 280 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:02.639 The reason we have lost, for instance, communities, those associations 281 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:06.640 that Topevill talked about, you know, so brilliantly, and how 282 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.119 they were in many ways the genius of America. The 283 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:13.960 reason isn't because of you know, some emphasis on individualism 284 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:17.880 and the Framers, it's because of progressivism. It's because of 285 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:20.680 progressivism that says, first of all, there are no such 286 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.079 things as natural rights, human beings are not equal, but 287 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:29.440 that we don't want voluntary associations. We want everything done 288 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:34.359 by the government. And when you've got I mean, you 289 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:40.960 take away the allegiance people have to churches, to their communities, 290 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:46.640 to their neighborhoods, because you replace them with governmental programs, 291 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:51.319 you replace them with the idea that government doesn't need 292 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:54.839 to be watched against, it doesn't need to be guarded against. 293 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:55.920 It's a good thing. 294 00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:02.240 Think about the stupid team ges stupid comment, and one 295 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.960 of the last things that came up, we don't want 296 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:08.440 we don't want this to happen. We want PhDs making 297 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:12.319 our decisions in the government. We want elites making decisions 298 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.240 in the government. I know a lot of PhDs. 299 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:15.759 I am one. 300 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.200 You don't want us making decisions there. Oh, anyway, that's 301 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:23.519 another struct the idea that that smart people will be 302 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:28.960 public spirited and are much more. I guess you could 303 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:33.240 say put the preferable to those community associations. 304 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:35.880 That's all because of progressivism. 305 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:40.240 That is a an aberration from the founders. 306 00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:42.720 It is not a necessity from the founders. 307 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:48.000 And it took decades of progressivism to destroy the ideas 308 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:50.200 that the founders put out there. It wasn't that they 309 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:55.200 were in and of themselves inherently destructible. It was a 310 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:59.759 massive and quite successful effort on the part of progressivisms 311 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:06.079 to progressive. This ex progressives to destroy the American founding. 312 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:08.119 And that is the thing we need to be talking 313 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:12.720 about every single day in two hundred and twenty twenty six. 314 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.759 So there's one way to understand what you're saying, Lucretia, 315 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:26.839 is that the common goood constitutionalism or postliberal idea is 316 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:31.720 an overreaction to the perversion of liberalism that occurred during 317 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:35.359 the progressive era. So progressive era attacks the founding As 318 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:38.119 you say, they have quite a bit of success, for 319 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:42.839 you know, about sixty years, seventy years, it starts to recede, 320 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:44.799 I think in the eighties, but it's made a comeback 321 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:49.319 under Obama. But the reaction is we need of post liberals? 322 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:53.400 Is we need another American revolution, we need to overthrow 323 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:55.799 you know, whereas you could just say, I think what 324 00:19:55.880 --> 00:20:00.400 Creatia's point maybe is why isn't why isn't the proper 325 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:04.519 response just to return to the founding principles of our 326 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:07.960 revolution and constitution. Don't need to have a holy new 327 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:13.079 revolution and overthrow the liberal regime in America because we've 328 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:16.279 gone of course? Is that fair? And then, Steve, what 329 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:16.839 do you think? 330 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:21.240 I'll respond quickly, Stephen, and let you have a lot 331 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:22.960 to say about what I said. I didn't even know 332 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:26.039 if it's an overaction, it's just a failure to understand 333 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:27.559 the importance of ideas. 334 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:27.839 Here. 335 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:31.039 Steve had a great line he wrote in and we 336 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:33.319 had an email chain going back and forth between the 337 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:35.720 three of us, and one of the things he said 338 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:39.279 is these common good constitutionalists have this idea that maybe 339 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:44.279 they can replace whatever with a kind of Catholicism, and 340 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:47.440 he said they should understand it's going to be Protestantism 341 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.559 if we ever get common good something. I'm actually much 342 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.359 more concerned that we get Islamism. 343 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:55.240 If you want. 344 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:59.720 Collectivism, if you want community, if you want all of 345 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:04.519 those things, the most powerful ideals out there right now. Obviously, 346 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.960 if you've been watching the horror that is New York 347 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:10.039 City in the last two days, we don't have to 348 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:13.519 worry about Catholics taking over this country, despite what Candice 349 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:14.440 Oman thinks. 350 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.200 We have to worry about Islam. 351 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:22.920 And I believe that in my heart of hearts because 352 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:28.319 to the extent that we have destroyed a belief in 353 00:21:28.359 --> 00:21:31.920 any kind of supreme being or something greater than themselves. 354 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:35.680 It has left many, many people out there desperate in 355 00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:39.799 the search for meaning, and Islam is a very powerful, ugly, 356 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:43.640 but compelling thing to turn to. That's why you see 357 00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:47.519 all these dumb twits putting on their he jab, you know, 358 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:49.960 the Redheads. I saw one of the things that the 359 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:52.880 twenty twenty six things we need to do in twenty 360 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:58.039 twenty six, we need to ban Gingers from becoming Islam. 361 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:00.119 Sorry, go ahead, I'm done. 362 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:03.599 I'm in personally not really terribly worried about Islam becoming 363 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:05.319 the state religion of the United States. 364 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:08.160 But Steve go ahead, Well maybe certain local communities it might. 365 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.279 But well, first of all, I think I think I 366 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:14.279 have a book titled suggested Lucretia, which is dumb twits, 367 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:15.319 and they're dumb tweets. 368 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:16.960 I think that's a nice ring to it. 369 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.880 But dude, it doesn't work anymore because now they're exes. 370 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:24.880 Okay, all my exes, we'll figure something out there. There's 371 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:26.039 a country song to behalf of that. 372 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:26.759 Now. 373 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:28.960 First of all, John, I am for a counter revolution 374 00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:32.240 if it involves toppling Woodrow Wilson's statues everywhere. 375 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.400 But that's not what they want. 376 00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:36.359 Yeah, I know. 377 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:39.839 So, first of all, I do think I'm not sure 378 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:42.039 if you meant to imply it or not. I don't think, say, 379 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.839 Adrian Vermule or I and Patrick Denin are calling for theocracy. 380 00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:49.240 I mean the word to use is integralism, and I'm 381 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.000 not sure is it actually ism like environmentalism. 382 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:52.400 Not really. 383 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:55.319 What it means is we should integrate, they think, and 384 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:57.799 because they're Catholics, are of Catholic social teaching, which has 385 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:01.200 always been very political. Going back to UH you know, 386 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:04.119 the common good and social justice as it was understood 387 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.319 rightly by the Catholic thinkers a thousand years ago. Okay, 388 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:10.440 I get all that, uh, and have some sympathy with 389 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:17.759 the concepts. The problem is it's built on our distortion. 390 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:20.240 I'll restate what Lucasia was saying and do it this way. 391 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:25.119 Some of the critiques made of liberalism is that, well, 392 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:29.359 it ignores virtue. Virtue has either disappeared or been fully privatized, 393 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:31.319 in which case it's not really public virtue at all. 394 00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:35.839 That's Alistair McIntyre's attack on liberalism. For example, I've already 395 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:38.799 mentioned common uh uh common the problem of the common 396 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.240 good in liberalism being reduced to just to some total 397 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.920 of individual preferences. In other words, there is no there 398 00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:47.480 is no real concept to argue about about what is 399 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:51.279 the best regene right, it's you know, whatever whichever way 400 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:57.519 are individual choices and political compromises take us to. And 401 00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:00.480