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<v Speaker 1>Hey guys, it's Jack.

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<v Speaker 2>I just wanted to talk to you today about a

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<v Speaker 2>you get access to all of our episodes add free.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also

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<v Speaker 2>do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers, but this

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<v Speaker 2>is the biggest and best way that you can support

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<v Speaker 2>we really appreciate that, So go and check us out

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<v Speaker 2>at patreon dot com. Slash the Teamhouse, Special Operations.

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<v Speaker 3>Coberts, Spiona, The Team House with your Hopes, Jack Murphy

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<v Speaker 3>and David Bark.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, everyone, welcome to episode two hundred and ninety six

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<v Speaker 2>of The Teamhouse. I'm Jack Murphy here with our guest tonight,

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<v Speaker 2>Joe Muccia.

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<v Speaker 1>Joe is the.

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<v Speaker 2>Author of Cry Havoc, The Untold Story of Rangers at

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<v Speaker 2>War with his co author Tom Greer. We're really excited

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<v Speaker 2>to have him on the show. This is, as far

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<v Speaker 2>as I know, the first time many of these stories

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<v Speaker 2>have been told publicly. This really is from the Ranger

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<v Speaker 2>perspective of first and Second Ranger Battalion guys who jumped

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<v Speaker 2>into Grenada in nineteen eighty three, an operation that has

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like slipped through the cracks of history in

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<v Speaker 2>some ways. I feel like, but you accomplished, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>telling these guys' stories through this book, cry Havoc. So

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<v Speaker 2>thank you, Joe. I really appreciate you taking the time

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<v Speaker 2>to write this book.

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<v Speaker 4>Now it's a pleasure. I'm glad to come on and

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<v Speaker 4>talk about it. These guys are in many cases they're

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<v Speaker 4>my friends, so it's really easy to talk about them.

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<v Speaker 2>That's great. So, Joe, I guess the first question I'd

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<v Speaker 2>like to ask a little bit about you. Uh, tell

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<v Speaker 2>us a little bit about your background, your military background,

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<v Speaker 2>and and sort of what led that towards you becoming,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, something of a historian at this point.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I'm a retired marine, uh, and then I worked,

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<v Speaker 4>uh work for the government. I started out as an

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<v Speaker 4>intel analyst, and by nature intel analyst, if you're a

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<v Speaker 4>smart one, you you pay quose attention to history. I

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<v Speaker 4>did that quite a bit. And I remember as we

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<v Speaker 4>were getting ready to go into Iraq and O three. UH,

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<v Speaker 4>I ended up sitting down with a lot of guys

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<v Speaker 4>who were in Desert Storm.

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<v Speaker 1>UH. A lot of those guys were my mentors.

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<v Speaker 4>When I first got in the Marine Corps UH and

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<v Speaker 4>UH they kind of taught me and and so I

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<v Speaker 4>kind of took it to heart in terms of, if

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<v Speaker 4>you're going to understand a problem set, the best thing

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<v Speaker 4>to do is get with the people who have experienced

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<v Speaker 4>it before.

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<v Speaker 1>UH.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's kind of how it drove me when it

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<v Speaker 4>came to research for the for the book. And when

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<v Speaker 4>I got back from Iraq and O three, I left

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<v Speaker 4>active duty in O four and I continued working on

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<v Speaker 4>my degree and I focused on history. Every time I

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<v Speaker 4>get asked, you know, why did you take history? You

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<v Speaker 4>want to be a professor or something, I'm like, no,

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<v Speaker 4>not really. I just picked it because that was the

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<v Speaker 4>subject that I really liked. And one of the first

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<v Speaker 4>projects I had started. I had taken some junior college

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<v Speaker 4>classes while I was on active duty, and one of

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<v Speaker 4>them was an American history one and there was a

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<v Speaker 4>Latin America South America chapter to it, and one of

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<v Speaker 4>my first squad leaders when I was in the Marine

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<v Speaker 4>Corps was a Grenada marine. So I reached out to

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<v Speaker 4>him and he provided me some good, good stuff for it.

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<v Speaker 4>And I really wanted to make sure because at that

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<v Speaker 4>time we knew it was a joint operation. Everybody, everybody

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<v Speaker 4>who had seen the footage from from the operation that

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<v Speaker 4>had leaked out saw the Rangers jumping at Points Salinas.

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<v Speaker 4>So to me, the next best thing to do was

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<v Speaker 4>to reach out to a ranger and get his his

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<v Speaker 4>inputs to it. This led me to a gentleman by

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<v Speaker 4>the name of Kip ryan Hart. Kip's a great friend.

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<v Speaker 4>He was a B Company Ranger, first Battalion. He was

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<v Speaker 4>one of the first sticks to drop at Points Alina's,

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<v Speaker 4>his platoon, first platoon to B Company. He was one

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<v Speaker 4>of the first Rangers on the ground actually, and he

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<v Speaker 4>was a young PFC promotable. He had just gotten back

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<v Speaker 4>from Ranger school. He had, in his own words, he

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<v Speaker 4>was beat to shit from ranger school, but he still

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<v Speaker 4>made mission and the insights I learned. But from Kip,

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<v Speaker 4>I was like, my god, why isn't anybody talked about

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<v Speaker 4>this stuff? I mean, it's so amazing what these guys accomplished,

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<v Speaker 4>And especially when he started to dig in and I

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<v Speaker 4>talked to his platoon sergeant Brian Stags and Stags he

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<v Speaker 4>told me, yeah, we were on the ground I think

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<v Speaker 4>for twenty five or thirty minutes before the next you know,

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<v Speaker 4>chalk jumped. And I went, wait, wait, wait, there's just

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<v Speaker 4>one platoon of rangers and he goes, oh yeah, and

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<v Speaker 4>the battalion headquarters on the ground for twenty five thirty

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<v Speaker 4>minutes before any other rangers jumped. Was Yeah, the Triple

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<v Speaker 4>A was too too dense. We had to bring inspector

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<v Speaker 4>to clear the hills off so we could start the

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<v Speaker 4>rest of the air the air drop back up. And

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<v Speaker 4>to me, that just opened up this this can of

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<v Speaker 4>worms in a good way. And and digging into the

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<v Speaker 4>into what happened there. And again, like you said in

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<v Speaker 4>your in your preamble, there's a I think everybody kind

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<v Speaker 4>of knows the story in broad terms about what happened,

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<v Speaker 4>but it's the real nitty gritty details that that I

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<v Speaker 4>don't think a lot of people are aware of. And yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>that's what we tried to accomplish with cry Havoc.

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<v Speaker 2>So as uh, that's how you got your start into

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<v Speaker 2>researching this topic. Talk to us a little bit about

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<v Speaker 2>coming together with Tom Greer and how this book starts

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<v Speaker 2>to come together, because that's I have to imagine, that's

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<v Speaker 2>an interesting story in of itself. And of course we

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<v Speaker 2>have to mention the the late Tom Greer himself, a

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<v Speaker 2>former Ranger, former Delta Force officer, who passed away a

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<v Speaker 2>number of years ago. You carried the torch for him

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<v Speaker 2>too with this book.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Luckily I got to bless off from Tom's family to

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<v Speaker 4>continue to write the book and get it out there.

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<v Speaker 4>I had been researching Grenada in general more to do

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<v Speaker 4>a full length operation, a book about the operation. And

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<v Speaker 4>it wasn't going to be just a peel off Ranger book.

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<v Speaker 4>It was going to be the in totality, the entire operation.

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<v Speaker 4>And Tom reached out to me about I want to

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<v Speaker 4>say two thousand and eight or so. He had basically

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<v Speaker 4>started interviewing some of the same rangers I had already interviewed,

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<v Speaker 4>and they were like, listen, I don't want to do

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<v Speaker 4>this all over again. Just contact Joe and get with

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<v Speaker 4>him and tell him. I said, to share my interview

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<v Speaker 4>with him, And so this is how the relationship began.

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<v Speaker 4>And first I didn't know Tom. I didn't know at all.

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<v Speaker 4>I didn't know any of his reputation, where he had been,

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<v Speaker 4>the Tora Bora thing, none of it. Knew none of it.

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<v Speaker 4>And then I had a friend say, oh, yeah, he's

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<v Speaker 4>an operator.

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<v Speaker 1>He was one of us. Was a ranger.

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<v Speaker 4>For those who don't know, Tom was with Charlie Company,

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<v Speaker 4>Hard Rock, Charlie First Battalion, and he was one of

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<v Speaker 4>the rangers who got left behind it Hunter.

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<v Speaker 1>There's supposed to be this mythical second wave that.

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<v Speaker 4>Was supposed to come in and Tom was going to

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<v Speaker 4>be part of it, but he ended up being stuck

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<v Speaker 4>at Hunter the whole time during Grenada. So these guys

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<v Speaker 4>they raised him as a young ranger. When they came back.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, everything that the rangers had been doing at

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<v Speaker 4>that point had been validated, So it was easy to

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<v Speaker 4>learn from these guys that you already knew, who had

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<v Speaker 4>already seen the elephant and then had come back and

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<v Speaker 4>teaching you the lessons and reinforcing lessons that you already knew.

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<v Speaker 4>But Tom, to his credit, kept at it like he

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<v Speaker 4>kept reaching out and kept like finally did the digging

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<v Speaker 4>in and I found out who he was and I said, okay,

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<v Speaker 4>I'll talk to him, and he said listen, you don't

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<v Speaker 4>have to share anything with me, but I'm going to

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<v Speaker 4>share stuff with you because you're writing the broader campaign.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm just writing a ranger book for rangers and ranger families.

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<v Speaker 4>And I said, well, that's pretty dynamite. And I started

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<v Speaker 4>sharing some of the stuff, putting guys in touch with

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<v Speaker 4>him and him vice versa, and we started talking to

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of the same people, and sometimes people wouldn't.

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<v Speaker 4>It took a long time for me to be able

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<v Speaker 4>to access that community. You know, I'm a marine, I'm

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<v Speaker 4>an outsider, not a ranger, never went to ranger school.

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<v Speaker 4>So I think the only thing that got me the

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<v Speaker 4>inroads early on was I was a combat veteran, and

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<v Speaker 4>I think that that was the only thing that these

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<v Speaker 4>guys could associate with me, because you know, I'm a.

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<v Speaker 1>Jar ahead, you know.

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<v Speaker 4>And it took a long time to get those inroads,

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<v Speaker 4>and to Kip's credit and to doctor Hero from Second Battalion,

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<v Speaker 4>those guys really paved the wave to me for me

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<v Speaker 4>to get to talk to more more rangers that were there.

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<v Speaker 4>And Tom didn't need that, like he was already one

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<v Speaker 4>of them, Like he was already one of you guys.

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<v Speaker 4>He was a ranger, he had been an operator. He

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<v Speaker 4>knew a lot of these guys who had went on

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<v Speaker 4>to serve in the unit afterwards, Like, he knew a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of so it was easier for him to make

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<v Speaker 4>those inroads. But we had a lot of cross pollination

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<v Speaker 4>and our research.

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<v Speaker 1>And so.

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<v Speaker 4>The years went by and he kept focusing in on

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<v Speaker 4>the range of book, but he was also writing his

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<v Speaker 4>other books, his his fiction books about Colton Rayner and

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<v Speaker 4>you know, the Delta Forest books that he wrote. And

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<v Speaker 4>but he really had a passion for this story because

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<v Speaker 4>it wasn't fiction, and it was people he knew and

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<v Speaker 4>respected greatly. And and if those of you had the

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<v Speaker 4>book and read the opening to it, you know that

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<v Speaker 4>he reached out to me and he basically I was

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<v Speaker 4>one of the few people outside of his close friends

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<v Speaker 4>and his family that knew that he was terminal. And

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<v Speaker 4>he basically said, look, I've done as much as I

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<v Speaker 4>can do with this thing, and I can't get it

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<v Speaker 4>any further because you know, as his brother Steve told me,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, he was trying to write books. He's trying

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<v Speaker 4>to write his books, he's trying to finish manuscripts and stuff. Well,

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<v Speaker 4>while on morphine for the pain for threshold work, and

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<v Speaker 4>you know, it was very tough on him, and he

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<v Speaker 4>was really really hurting. And I knew that I I

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<v Speaker 4>told him I would I would do it. I would

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<v Speaker 4>do something with it, and I didn't. And and to my

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<v Speaker 4>my failing, I didn't do anything with it right away.

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<v Speaker 4>It really took another Grenada Raider to give me a

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<v Speaker 4>kick in the ass and get me going on, a

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<v Speaker 4>guy named Todd Beard and whose dad, Milton, is a

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<v Speaker 4>well known personality CIA personality. Todd Todd was like, dude,

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<v Speaker 4>you got to get this thing going. You know, you

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<v Speaker 4>can't let it just die on the vine.

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<v Speaker 2>That's amazing. Yeah, we've had Milt on the show a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of times.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, Well, Tod Todd really was the one who

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<v Speaker 4>got this thing that we energized, and between him and

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<v Speaker 4>the and the Greer family, I put it put a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of pressure on myself to get it done and

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<v Speaker 4>get it done in advance for the fortieth anniversary last year,

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<v Speaker 4>which thankfully I was able to. I literally got it

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<v Speaker 4>out the door, I think within I don't know, three

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<v Speaker 4>weeks of the anniversary. Four weeks of the anniversary, I

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<v Speaker 4>had sold him out so fast. I had one box

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<v Speaker 4>of books with me at the reunion down in Savannah,

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<v Speaker 4>and the guys were pissed off. I didn't bring enough

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<v Speaker 4>with me, but Tommy was. He sent me everything. He

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<v Speaker 4>sent me all of his research. He sent me the

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<v Speaker 4>shell of the manuscript he had written. I want to

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<v Speaker 4>say about maybe fifty sixty percent of it, but it

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<v Speaker 4>was rough and it needed a lot of work. There

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<v Speaker 4>was some sequentially sequential issues with it in terms of

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<v Speaker 4>where things were. I wrote in the note section. Bruce

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<v Speaker 4>McGraw was another first Platoon B Company guy who was

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<v Speaker 4>that first plane load over the on the airfield. Bruce

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<v Speaker 4>had found the MC one thirty chalk listings and their

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<v Speaker 4>time on target for the drops. Wow, and this was

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<v Speaker 4>able to really solidify. I knew the planes were all

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<v Speaker 4>out of order from my interviews, but I didn't know

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<v Speaker 4>exactly where who was who in the zoo in terms

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<v Speaker 4>of the stack. After that, the first stick jumped, which

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<v Speaker 4>was actually Aircraft three, and then the other ones stacked.

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<v Speaker 4>But with that in hand, I was really able to

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<v Speaker 4>put a pin in it and finish that that portion up,

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<v Speaker 4>and that's when everything started to really coalesce. Getting getting

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<v Speaker 4>the manuscript finished, but there was a lot of a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of the tough sequences were still there that needed

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<v Speaker 4>to be done, the Grand Dan's rescue, the firefight with

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<v Speaker 4>Juliette six, the jeep team Calvini, and then then then

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<v Speaker 4>wrapping it all up and putting a bow on it

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<v Speaker 4>was was There was still a lot of work that

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<v Speaker 4>needed to be done. But Tom did such great work,

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<v Speaker 4>and he also had written it in a way. I'm

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<v Speaker 4>actually working on a companion book called Old Scrolls right now.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm interviewing a lot of old score rangers.

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<v Speaker 1>It that book.

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<v Speaker 4>The genesis of it was the stuff that went to

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<v Speaker 4>the cutting room floor from cry Havoc. He had written

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<v Speaker 4>this thing that we probably would have ended up being

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<v Speaker 4>about five six hundred pages long if we would have

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<v Speaker 4>just published it in total. But it needed some streamlining

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<v Speaker 4>and it needed some stuff to get cut, and thankfully

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<v Speaker 4>we'll be able to put that stuff in another book.

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<v Speaker 4>But this way, I think it's much more economical, and

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<v Speaker 4>it reads. The flow of the read is a lot

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<v Speaker 4>better this way. But he did all the heavy legwork

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<v Speaker 4>early on.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, this was really a labor of love for

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<v Speaker 2>both of you guys. You know, it shows So to

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<v Speaker 2>start to get into the content of the book, could

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<v Speaker 2>you start by giving us a sort of a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of a background about what was going on in

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<v Speaker 2>Grenada in eighty three that leads up to first and

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<v Speaker 2>second range of Battalion getting this Warnoh.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the.

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<v Speaker 4>Actually, as far back as I want to say, nineteen

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<v Speaker 4>seventy nine, Grenada had been on the State Department watch

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<v Speaker 4>lists in terms of, hey, we have Americans on the

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<v Speaker 4>ground there, the medical school there. They've got some political

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<v Speaker 4>consternation going on. They have a socialist government that is

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<v Speaker 4>leaning heavily towards becoming full blown Marxists.

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<v Speaker 1>They originally.

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<v Speaker 4>The Maurice Bishop government had reached out to the United

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<v Speaker 4>States and they were sort of rebuffed. I don't know

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<v Speaker 4>the ins and outs of it, and I won't get

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<v Speaker 4>into it in the book. I say it right right

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<v Speaker 4>right away. I don't really I'm not a State Department guy.

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<v Speaker 4>It's not my job to sit there and talk about

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<v Speaker 4>all the political machinations behind the scene. Although he was

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<v Speaker 4>rebuffed and that led him to lean towards Cuba and

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<v Speaker 4>later Russia, and this obviously worries that when the Reagan

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<v Speaker 4>administration comes into power after the in eighty one. It's

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<v Speaker 4>in eighty one. Yeah, it was eighty one. Sorry, I'm old.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm not that old. When Reagan, the Reagan administration comes

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<v Speaker 4>on the power, they really start to put a focal,

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<v Speaker 4>focal lens on on on Grenada, especially when the airfield

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<v Speaker 4>starts to get built. You have the g Canadian saying

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<v Speaker 4>it's for tourism, but the thing is long enough to

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<v Speaker 4>with to handle any any of the larger Russian and

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<v Speaker 4>Cuban bomber fleet airframes, and this worries the Reagan administration,

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<v Speaker 4>although if they had any imagery analysis done worth its

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<v Speaker 4>salt would have told them, hey, there's only the small

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<v Speaker 4>parking apron. There's no way they can pivot multiple aircraft

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<v Speaker 4>around at one time. And this has an effect on

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<v Speaker 4>the actual operation Urgent Fury later on as well. But

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<v Speaker 4>they become they become a focal point for the Reagan administration.

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<v Speaker 1>And then into eighty two and eighty.

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<v Speaker 4>Three there is political unrest there. The new Jewel Movement

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<v Speaker 4>is formed. It is more extreme Marxist. They think that

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<v Speaker 4>it's led by Bernard Cord. They don't think that Maurice

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<v Speaker 4>Bishop is Marxist enough, and they decide to overthrow them.

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<v Speaker 4>But there's a public outcry when Bishops has loved among

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<v Speaker 4>the people of Grenada, and he's arrested but later freed,

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<v Speaker 4>but then they seize him again, and then he's later assassinated.

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<v Speaker 4>And this this at that point in time, the US

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<v Speaker 4>government decides we've had enough. They originally the original plan,

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<v Speaker 4>they had done a number of exercises at the Aegas

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<v Speaker 4>that that simulated a Grenada operation where they were going

316
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<v Speaker 4>to put a marine battalion landing team on the ground

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<v Speaker 4>and a ranger battalion and they would basically be able

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<v Speaker 4>to subdue the island and rescue, rescue political prisoners, and

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<v Speaker 4>and that was it. And they do this a couple

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<v Speaker 4>of times. But finally, after after Bishop's assassination, the wheels

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<v Speaker 4>are set in motion for for the US intervention.

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<v Speaker 2>There on on the fears that this could become some

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<v Speaker 2>sort of communist stage and ground right, even though that

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<v Speaker 2>maybe wasn't quite plausible at that moment.

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<v Speaker 4>I think there was a there was a multi view

326
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:15.119
<v Speaker 4>opinion that one they didn't like the possibility that airfield

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<v Speaker 4>becoming militarized. They didn't like that they had a Marxist

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<v Speaker 4>communist government in their backyard. They already had one in Cuba,

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<v Speaker 4>and on top of it, you had US medical students there,

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<v Speaker 4>and you have the Iran hostage crisis fresh in everyone's memory.

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<v Speaker 4>So I think all three of those pieces are upfront

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<v Speaker 4>in the in the in how they're doing their calculus

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<v Speaker 4>in terms of when I say they, I mean the

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<v Speaker 4>Reagan administration, how they're their calculus is forming about how

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<v Speaker 4>to deal with the situation. But once once bishop is

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<v Speaker 4>assassinated and a curfew is put in place, a shoot

337
00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:55.359
<v Speaker 4>on site curfew, that really is what starts everything in motion.

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<v Speaker 2>So I mean it's your book is really the ranger perspective.

339
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:03.079
<v Speaker 2>So if you don't want to get into the top level,

340
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:06.000
<v Speaker 2>but I mean, can we at least talk a little

341
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<v Speaker 2>bit about like how the Reagan administration arrived at that

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<v Speaker 2>decision and then how that order makes its way down

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<v Speaker 2>to the rangers who have to start preparing for them

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<v Speaker 2>the operation.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think they looked at it as like a

346
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<v Speaker 4>coupe de main operation where they would just parachute, you know,

347
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<v Speaker 4>a battalion at points alnas and they would roll north

348
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.440
<v Speaker 4>and and and you know, or or roll out to

349
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<v Speaker 4>the east and secure the the the students and then

350
00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:36.559
<v Speaker 4>they would backload them and be done. But there were

351
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<v Speaker 4>a whole slow emissions laid on, especially for the special

352
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<v Speaker 4>mission units, a number of them like the electrical power stations.

353
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<v Speaker 1>The oil pumping.

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<v Speaker 4>Station, radio transmitted mission, state station on the island. These

355
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:55.240
<v Speaker 4>the whole slow emissions that are there that are at

356
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<v Speaker 4>least conceptually looked at the Rangers. First range of it

357
00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.519
<v Speaker 4>had just come off ready Ranger ready Force one. They

358
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.440
<v Speaker 4>had just handed it off to second Battalion who had

359
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:07.240
<v Speaker 4>just assumed it.

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<v Speaker 1>For the Rangers. You know.

361
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<v Speaker 4>They Yeah, Jaysack had just you know been formed in

362
00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:21.039
<v Speaker 4>you know again in the ashes of of the Iran rescue.

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<v Speaker 4>General Schoulties, Dick Schulties was running the show there. He

364
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<v Speaker 4>was a conventional guy, but he had had a very

365
00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:32.400
<v Speaker 4>experienced special operations staff around him. Uh, And they were

366
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<v Speaker 4>they were pushing early on to make it a Ranger

367
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<v Speaker 4>battalion show. Later on the Marines get added. And there's

368
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<v Speaker 4>a lot of the thing I I've learned about Urgent

369
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<v Speaker 4>Fury and is that there is more urban legend and

370
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<v Speaker 4>myth involved in this operation and I think any other

371
00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.799
<v Speaker 4>military action in US military history. There are so much

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<v Speaker 4>bullshit and stories that people think they know the truth

373
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<v Speaker 4>about what happened or who is alerted or who did

374
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<v Speaker 4>this or who did that. And the odd thing about

375
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<v Speaker 4>it is typical D classification for papers dealing with stuff

376
00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.160
<v Speaker 4>is about twenty five years. Well it's going forty and

377
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.440
<v Speaker 4>a lot of the stuff still hasn't been D classed.

378
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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

379
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<v Speaker 4>Thankfully the stuff that was relevant to the book was

380
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<v Speaker 4>D classed so we could write about it.

381
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<v Speaker 1>But for the.

382
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<v Speaker 4>Rangers, it starts. It starts at Jaysock, right. It's Ken

383
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<v Speaker 4>Bower and John Ritzell who are the j three alphas

384
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<v Speaker 4>at Jaysock, and they are the ones who start the

385
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:39.400
<v Speaker 4>ball in motion. And the first thing they do is,

386
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:43.920
<v Speaker 4>according to John Ritzill, he informed first Bat first. And

387
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<v Speaker 4>I talk about this in the book in the notes section,

388
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<v Speaker 4>and I encourage everyone to read it. And I think

389
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<v Speaker 4>the world of Colonel John, and I think he's a

390
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:52.720
<v Speaker 4>great guy and his my moory might be a little

391
00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:55.920
<v Speaker 4>flawed because I ran down the timelines of all of it,

392
00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:59.319
<v Speaker 4>and second Bat got alerted first, which was proper. They

393
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:02.880
<v Speaker 4>were our or ranger ready for us one. But the

394
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:04.839
<v Speaker 4>thing with them is they had to stage out of

395
00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:07.880
<v Speaker 4>the ISB, which was gonna end up being hunter, they

396
00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:11.200
<v Speaker 4>had to fly across country, so they immediately start recalling.

397
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<v Speaker 4>They've got rangers up at a a Halo jump Master

398
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:20.200
<v Speaker 4>MTT at a Yakama, and for first bat they've got

399
00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:22.240
<v Speaker 4>rangers that are flying all over the place because it's

400
00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:25.319
<v Speaker 4>deer season and they're worried that guys will not be you know,

401
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.000
<v Speaker 4>back then had pagers. You know, you don't have cell

402
00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:32.920
<v Speaker 4>phones and communications, global communications not there. So they were

403
00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:34.920
<v Speaker 4>worried guys are flying to the four Winds to go

404
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.039
<v Speaker 4>hunting or whatever because they just came off and you

405
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:39.759
<v Speaker 4>figure they're going to be back in the barracks party

406
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:45.160
<v Speaker 4>and hard. So there was yeah, no, imagine that young

407
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:46.839
<v Speaker 4>rangers and the barracks party and hard.

408
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Not.

409
00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:51.680
<v Speaker 4>That never happens, right, So the recall goes out and

410
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:57.200
<v Speaker 4>they start bringing guys back in, and for both battalions,

411
00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:03.720
<v Speaker 4>both battalion commanders had done multi alert on consecutive weekends

412
00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:06.240
<v Speaker 4>leading up to that. So the guys who were really

413
00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:08.599
<v Speaker 4>sore about having to come back in, we're just gonna

414
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:12.400
<v Speaker 4>come in, accountability, draw weapons, rock march, come back, and

415
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:14.680
<v Speaker 4>then we're gonna lose half a day and we're gonna

416
00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:17.799
<v Speaker 4>be pissed off and then they come in and the

417
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:22.400
<v Speaker 4>medics are pulling morphine. The war as they called them,

418
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.799
<v Speaker 4>the war guns are coming out. And I don't know

419
00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:28.880
<v Speaker 4>if they did this in your time. There was a

420
00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:29.960
<v Speaker 4>separate set of weapons.

421
00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:30.359
<v Speaker 1>Back then.

422
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:32.759
<v Speaker 4>They had their take them to the field and beat

423
00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:34.319
<v Speaker 4>the crap out of them weapons. And then they had

424
00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:39.759
<v Speaker 4>their war guns which were specially sequestered and weren't taken

425
00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:40.440
<v Speaker 4>out as often.

426
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:42.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, we didn't have that.

427
00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:43.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

428
00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:46.079
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was interesting in your book how you

429
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:48.680
<v Speaker 2>talk about, you know, how the guys get recalled for

430
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.880
<v Speaker 2>training purposes over and over again. So when the live

431
00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:54.279
<v Speaker 2>thing happens, a lot of these guys think it's bullshit.

432
00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:57.440
<v Speaker 2>There are actually, I think, as I recall a couple

433
00:22:57.480 --> 00:22:59.880
<v Speaker 2>people in your book who are like sitting on the

434
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:03.720
<v Speaker 2>plane thirty minutes away from jumping into Grenada still like, ah,

435
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:06.279
<v Speaker 2>this is just an exercise. They're gonna call it. They're

436
00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:07.279
<v Speaker 2>gonna call it all off.

437
00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

438
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:10.799
<v Speaker 4>And the funny thing was it Jerry Perky said it best.

439
00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.720
<v Speaker 4>He opened up his Ammo pouch and there's you know,

440
00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:16.960
<v Speaker 4>there's full there's real real rounds in those magazines, and

441
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:18.559
<v Speaker 4>he goes, yeah, but it was an alert.

442
00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:19.920
<v Speaker 1>We wouldn't have these, you know.

443
00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:22.720
<v Speaker 4>He points, yeah, points to his jump master buddy, right,

444
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.720
<v Speaker 4>He's like yeah, but yeah, for a lot of these guys,

445
00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:28.519
<v Speaker 4>they were they they rolled into an eighteen hour sequence

446
00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:30.079
<v Speaker 4>just like normal, like it was normal.

447
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:32.240
<v Speaker 1>But this wasn't normal. Obviously.

448
00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:34.680
<v Speaker 4>As soon as the live AMMO came out and the

449
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.079
<v Speaker 4>guy's described it as this mortgage board, he just walked

450
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:40.079
<v Speaker 4>along the tables and picked what you want, Like I

451
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:42.559
<v Speaker 4>have friends who jumped into into Panama with the Ranger

452
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.000
<v Speaker 4>Regiment and they were like, no, we got cards that

453
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:48.880
<v Speaker 4>told us how much AMMO to take back.

454
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:49.319
<v Speaker 1>Then no.

455
00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:52.720
<v Speaker 4>And there's a story about Bill Mayville, General Mayville, and

456
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.039
<v Speaker 4>he ends up jumping with a Claymore and a belt

457
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:59.359
<v Speaker 4>of seven six to two m sixty AMMO in his

458
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:03.880
<v Speaker 4>shirt because they were thinking how long are they going

459
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:06.799
<v Speaker 4>to be down there before I get resupplied. And so

460
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:09.359
<v Speaker 4>these guys told me these are the heaviest rucks they

461
00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:13.519
<v Speaker 4>ever jumped, and all they had was water, food AMMO,

462
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:16.079
<v Speaker 4>no snivel gear, really a couple pairs of socks if

463
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:18.200
<v Speaker 4>they were lucky, maybe a poncho liner.

464
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:26.599
<v Speaker 2>So the sequences, first battalion gets alerted, then second battalion.

465
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.039
<v Speaker 1>The second battalion goes first.

466
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.559
<v Speaker 2>Okay, okay, because they're they're on RF one yep, okay,

467
00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:33.839
<v Speaker 2>So second battalion gets it first. They have to fly

468
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:38.039
<v Speaker 2>across the country to Hunter to co locate with first Battalion,

469
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:42.000
<v Speaker 2>who also gets alerted. What are that sort of the

470
00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:45.920
<v Speaker 2>actions on at Hunter and like at what point do

471
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:48.319
<v Speaker 2>these guys get kind of like briefed on an actual

472
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:50.160
<v Speaker 2>upward like does that? Does that happen?

473
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:51.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

474
00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:55.839
<v Speaker 4>The so, first off, the mission changes a little bit. Originally,

475
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:02.720
<v Speaker 4>Colonel Hagler flies out to Brag and they meet to

476
00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:05.240
<v Speaker 4>Jaysock headquarters and they go into a planning session, initial

477
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:08.160
<v Speaker 4>planning session where they kind of do a divisional labor

478
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:11.200
<v Speaker 4>who's going to do what First Battalion's going to take

479
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:14.960
<v Speaker 4>Salina's Second Battalion's going to jump at Pearls Airport up

480
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.480
<v Speaker 4>on the eastern side of Grenada. So basically coup de

481
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:23.599
<v Speaker 4>main operations on both of the islands airports. Later on,

482
00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.079
<v Speaker 4>the Marines get added and Pearls is taken away from

483
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:28.680
<v Speaker 4>second bat and they are given the mission to follow

484
00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:32.720
<v Speaker 4>first in and then conduct a road march to Calvini,

485
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:36.799
<v Speaker 4>which is the main Cuban and Grenadian training facility on

486
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:40.079
<v Speaker 4>the island, and they're going to take that out. And

487
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.640
<v Speaker 4>in between there there are also both battalions are going

488
00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:46.400
<v Speaker 4>to help to rescue all the medical students and evacuate

489
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:52.799
<v Speaker 4>them or secure them for evacuation. So at that point

490
00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:56.039
<v Speaker 4>they start discussing like, Okay, here's specter is going to

491
00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:57.400
<v Speaker 4>be in support.

492
00:25:58.039 --> 00:25:59.559
<v Speaker 1>What's the jump altitude going to be?

493
00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:04.359
<v Speaker 4>They get with the special operator, the special airman special

494
00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:09.559
<v Speaker 4>operations airmen to discuss jump altitudes. Originally those guys wanted

495
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:11.559
<v Speaker 4>to go up like twelve hundred and sixteen hundred feet.

496
00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:14.759
<v Speaker 4>The Rangers really wanted to jump at like three hundred

497
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:19.559
<v Speaker 4>to start. That was the first suggestion, no reserves. Then

498
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.480
<v Speaker 4>the two of them together. Now the funny thing is

499
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:25.279
<v Speaker 4>I interviewed both battalion commanders, and both battalion commanders told

500
00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:27.160
<v Speaker 4>me they made the decision to go at five hundred.

501
00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:30.359
<v Speaker 4>So I came to the conclusion that they got together

502
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:36.319
<v Speaker 4>and they said five hundred. I called that one because

503
00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:37.799
<v Speaker 4>neither one of them seemed to want to back off

504
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:39.759
<v Speaker 4>of they were the ones who made the call, but

505
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:43.200
<v Speaker 4>the five hundred was the only one that they could

506
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.319
<v Speaker 4>get the space Special Operations aviators to guarantee them to

507
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:49.759
<v Speaker 4>be able to put them on the DZ without getting

508
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:53.279
<v Speaker 4>every plane blown out of the sky. So that's how

509
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.599
<v Speaker 4>they settled in the five hundred. And you also had

510
00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:59.599
<v Speaker 4>your Air Liaison officers US Air Force a LOS that

511
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:03.039
<v Speaker 4>were to the battalions were there to help with the planning. Again,

512
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:05.720
<v Speaker 4>the specter guys, you had your night stalkers, you had

513
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:07.839
<v Speaker 4>your smooths. They were all in there doing their their

514
00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:11.160
<v Speaker 4>going into their separate little rooms and doing their own

515
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:14.279
<v Speaker 4>their own coordination. And here's where a lot of the

516
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.759
<v Speaker 4>confusion for the operation starts to take place. They had

517
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.039
<v Speaker 4>very few maps, so they got copies of the maps,

518
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:23.079
<v Speaker 4>and then each one of those cells made their own

519
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.759
<v Speaker 4>grid lines, so none of them had corresponding grid lines.

520
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:31.279
<v Speaker 4>So it made it very difficult to coordinate things once

521
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:32.160
<v Speaker 4>they got on the ground.

522
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:34.119
<v Speaker 1>Later on, the.

523
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:37.160
<v Speaker 4>Defense Mapping Agency starts churning out maps left and right,

524
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:40.839
<v Speaker 4>but it's four or five days after the operations kicked off,

525
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:43.799
<v Speaker 4>so that's a real limitter for them right then and there,

526
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:47.480
<v Speaker 4>and it makes it very difficult unless it's an inter

527
00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:50.720
<v Speaker 4>unit fire, like let's just say B company mortars are

528
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:52.839
<v Speaker 4>going to fire and support a B company and they're

529
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.559
<v Speaker 4>all shooting off the same map. Okay, it makes sense,

530
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:57.920
<v Speaker 4>but when you're trying to coordinate fires across the battalion,

531
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:01.759
<v Speaker 4>man and you got two battalions and two separate sets

532
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:05.160
<v Speaker 4>of grid system you know, two different grid systems. You

533
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:06.920
<v Speaker 4>got that's a recipe for disaster.

534
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:13.359
<v Speaker 2>So what is this the final scheme of maneuver that

535
00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:17.519
<v Speaker 2>they come up with for the infiltration phase? And how

536
00:28:17.559 --> 00:28:20.160
<v Speaker 2>does that start to uh go and you know when

537
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:21.079
<v Speaker 2>h hour comes.

538
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So the way they work it out is it's

539
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:28.160
<v Speaker 4>going to be a company. The first battalion is going

540
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:30.079
<v Speaker 4>to be your jump clearing team. They're going to jump

541
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.039
<v Speaker 4>to two aircraft loads of rangers are going to go

542
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:35.240
<v Speaker 4>down clear the airfield, and then it's going to be

543
00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:38.400
<v Speaker 4>air land and Tebbie style where the rest of the

544
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:40.960
<v Speaker 4>first and then second following will pour out of the

545
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:45.720
<v Speaker 4>aircraft and go about securing their portions of the of

546
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:49.200
<v Speaker 4>the airfield. And the airfield originally is divided up with

547
00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:52.319
<v Speaker 4>a company having the eastern portion of it the hills

548
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:56.319
<v Speaker 4>north of the airfield, and then the eastern portion of

549
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:01.119
<v Speaker 4>the airfield along with the True Blue Medical School campus.

550
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:08.240
<v Speaker 4>B company is to the left flank of the left

551
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:10.960
<v Speaker 4>flank of A Company First Battalion, so B Company First

552
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:14.000
<v Speaker 4>Battalions right next to them. And then you have if

553
00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:17.880
<v Speaker 4>memory serves, A and B Company of second bat on

554
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:22.319
<v Speaker 4>the western side of the airfield's northern hills with I

555
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:23.440
<v Speaker 4>think their C Company.

556
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:24.759
<v Speaker 1>I'd have to pull my maps out.

557
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:28.920
<v Speaker 4>It's been a minute on the south side of the airfield,

558
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.440
<v Speaker 4>kind of acting as a quick reaction force. And then

559
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.839
<v Speaker 4>hard Rock Charlieer the first Battalion is attached to Delta

560
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:39.279
<v Speaker 4>for the Richmond Hill prison rescue mission. So that's the

561
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:45.640
<v Speaker 4>basic force laydown. And again the initial the initial entry

562
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:47.319
<v Speaker 4>method is going to be the jump clearing team in

563
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:50.000
<v Speaker 4>first and then AirLand the remainder of the force. But

564
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:55.920
<v Speaker 4>because Murphy gets a vote no pun intended, the parachute

565
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:58.400
<v Speaker 4>option is always on the table and all the parachutes

566
00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:01.079
<v Speaker 4>are brought ends up working out.

567
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Joe. I got to do a quick ad read from

568
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.759
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569
00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:13.640
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<v Speaker 2>And then I'd just like to tell our viewers real

617
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:01.640
<v Speaker 2>quick about we Defy Special Forces History book I have

618
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:05.400
<v Speaker 2>coming out in December, the Lost Chapters of Special Forces History,

619
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:09.680
<v Speaker 2>with chapters about Blue Light, America's first counter terrorism team,

620
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.759
<v Speaker 2>green Light, the guys that trained to jump with backpack nukes,

621
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:17.319
<v Speaker 2>Detachment A in Berlin, Detachment Kay and Korea, and this

622
00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:21.200
<v Speaker 2>commander's in extremist Force, the SITH. So I mean, I

623
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.519
<v Speaker 2>interviewed dozens and dozens of people for this book. I'm

624
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:26.960
<v Speaker 2>really happy with how it's coming out. It's up for

625
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:30.720
<v Speaker 2>pre order now on Amazon. Paperbacks will be available December

626
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:33.279
<v Speaker 2>ninth when the book is released. And of course we

627
00:33:33.319 --> 00:33:37.240
<v Speaker 2>also want to tell people about Cry Havoc, Joe Muccia's

628
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:40.960
<v Speaker 2>book written with Tom Greer, the Untold Story of Rangers

629
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:45.279
<v Speaker 2>at War and the subject of this podcast. Obviously, Joe

630
00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:47.480
<v Speaker 2>you're also doing a podcast. Do you want to tell

631
00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:49.880
<v Speaker 2>people a little bit about what that's about and where

632
00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:50.559
<v Speaker 2>they can find it?

633
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:54.759
<v Speaker 4>Sure, if you're interested in World War two history, I

634
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:56.799
<v Speaker 4>do a World War two podcast called the We're Not

635
00:33:56.920 --> 00:33:59.759
<v Speaker 4>Lost Private Podcast. If you're a fan of Band of Brothers,

636
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:04.240
<v Speaker 4>you're I recognize the the title. In some capacity, we

637
00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:08.119
<v Speaker 4>talked mostly Western Europe, but actually I just finished one

638
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:13.199
<v Speaker 4>with a fellow Long Islander about the Battle for Wake Island.

639
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:16.119
<v Speaker 4>So it's pretty broad ranging. If again, if you like

640
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:20.159
<v Speaker 4>World War Two especially, we have a focus for paratroopers,

641
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:25.800
<v Speaker 4>one hundred first Airborne, eighty second Airborne.

642
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:24.559
<v Speaker 1>A lot of that.

643
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:28.239
<v Speaker 4>We cover a lot of broad range of topics. But

644
00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:31.159
<v Speaker 4>it's it's pretty good. I think it's pretty good.

645
00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Will We will have links down the description for both

646
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Cry Havoc, the book as well as the podcast Joe's podcasts.

647
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:40.559
<v Speaker 2>So please take a look.

648
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:40.920
<v Speaker 1>Guys.

649
00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:44.880
<v Speaker 2>The book is Cry Havoc is available right now, and

650
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:47.360
<v Speaker 2>give people your website so they can go and get

651
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:49.840
<v Speaker 2>the book directly from you. Get autographed copies.

652
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:53.199
<v Speaker 4>I got to read this off this stupid business card. Okay,

653
00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:01.280
<v Speaker 4>go for It's https backslash backslash SSgt moot dot Wicksite

654
00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:05.480
<v Speaker 4>dot com, forward Slash, Joe Dash Mucia, I'll have this.

655
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:07.639
<v Speaker 4>I'll send this to you Jack, so you could throw

656
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:10.639
<v Speaker 4>it on there. If you follow the drop down menu,

657
00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:13.320
<v Speaker 4>you can find the menu for Cry Havoc. You can

658
00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:16.000
<v Speaker 4>order it directly from me and then I'll sign it

659
00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:19.280
<v Speaker 4>and I'll inscribe it if you like. And also, like

660
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:21.000
<v Speaker 4>I spoke about earlier in the pod, I'll have a

661
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:23.199
<v Speaker 4>companion book to Cry Have It coming out.

662
00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:24.199
<v Speaker 1>Called Old Scrolls.

663
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:28.079
<v Speaker 4>It's basically stories of the Ranger battalions from their formation

664
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:30.400
<v Speaker 4>in seventy four to seventy five up through the early

665
00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:35.719
<v Speaker 4>part of eighty four. It's gonna be pretty I am

666
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:39.719
<v Speaker 4>really enjoying writing this one. It really covers a lot

667
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:43.639
<v Speaker 4>of ground. There's a lot of legend in the Elden, Bargewell,

668
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:48.199
<v Speaker 4>Bob Howard, all these these legends and Ranger and Special

669
00:35:48.199 --> 00:35:53.239
<v Speaker 4>Forces history. I think a lot of especially the Ranger community,

670
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:55.679
<v Speaker 4>will really get a kick out of it. It was

671
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:58.079
<v Speaker 4>originally gonna be like a forbidden tale of the Rangers,

672
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:02.119
<v Speaker 4>but there's there's a lot more to it than just telling,

673
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:07.159
<v Speaker 4>you know, telling some stories out of school. And I

674
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:11.239
<v Speaker 4>think everybody will get it, get a feel for you

675
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:15.119
<v Speaker 4>know how difficult it was for those for the First

676
00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:18.800
<v Speaker 4>and second Range Battalions to reform after Vietnam and then

677
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:22.559
<v Speaker 4>change themselves from a light one of the premier light

678
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:28.280
<v Speaker 4>infantry battalions, battalions in the world, into almost a special

679
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:32.800
<v Speaker 4>mission force, you know, changing from light infantry to more

680
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:37.760
<v Speaker 4>of a Vietnam reconnaissance patrolling organization, and then into a

681
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:41.480
<v Speaker 4>special unit where they conduct airfield seizures and raids and

682
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:43.599
<v Speaker 4>things of that nature. So it goes through a lot

683
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.079
<v Speaker 4>of those growing pains to get to what we now

684
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:47.519
<v Speaker 4>have as the modern Ranger Force.

685
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:50.760
<v Speaker 2>I will definitely be reading the book when it comes out. Joe,

686
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:53.519
<v Speaker 2>hit us up. We'll have you back another time to

687
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:54.360
<v Speaker 2>talk about that one.

688
00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:55.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that'd be great.

689
00:36:56.440 --> 00:36:59.519
<v Speaker 2>Let's uh, let's get into the interesting part here, the

690
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:04.239
<v Speaker 2>jumping self. Reading your book gonna be completely honest. I

691
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:07.480
<v Speaker 2>hope I don't offend some of the Rangers out there.

692
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:09.599
<v Speaker 2>The jump sounds like it was a bit of a

693
00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:13.119
<v Speaker 2>mess man, that it was just chaos and confusion in

694
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:13.960
<v Speaker 2>those aircraft.

695
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:19.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're not, you're not. You're not downplaying it at all.

696
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:23.880
<v Speaker 4>I think I think the thing that most people don't

697
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:30.039
<v Speaker 4>really understand is one, the force inbound goes through several

698
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:35.119
<v Speaker 4>order changes that really throws things off. And then two

699
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:40.119
<v Speaker 4>again too, as we spoke about before, they don't get

700
00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:42.360
<v Speaker 4>to pull off the jump clearing team and then the

701
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:45.519
<v Speaker 4>Entebbe style land and offload.

702
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:47.159
<v Speaker 1>They end up having to jump.

703
00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:50.519
<v Speaker 4>And in some cases the word goes out throughout the

704
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:57.039
<v Speaker 4>force rig d D rig rig again, so guys are

705
00:37:57.159 --> 00:38:01.000
<v Speaker 4>and not only that, sometimes during that d those parachutes

706
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:05.000
<v Speaker 4>are just getting thrown haphazardly into the somewhere some open

707
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:07.280
<v Speaker 4>space in the aircraft, and then when they get handed

708
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:09.440
<v Speaker 4>back out, you don't necessarily get to shoot back that

709
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:10.559
<v Speaker 4>you originally rigged.

710
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:11.599
<v Speaker 1>So in some.

711
00:38:11.559 --> 00:38:14.000
<v Speaker 4>Cases we had guys who were five foot eight getting

712
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:16.559
<v Speaker 4>a rigged for somebody who was six foot two, or

713
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:18.880
<v Speaker 4>vice versa. So there was a lot of things that

714
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:23.320
<v Speaker 4>went on, and I think while we laugh about it

715
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.400
<v Speaker 4>and we talk about it being a bit of a mess,

716
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:29.920
<v Speaker 4>I think this is where we look at the professionalism

717
00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:32.559
<v Speaker 4>of the ranger force at that time, that they're able

718
00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:36.760
<v Speaker 4>to overcome that, get their rangers rigged, get their rucks rigged,

719
00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:39.239
<v Speaker 4>and get themselves out of the aircraft and on the

720
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:42.079
<v Speaker 4>ground in fighting order so they can immediately go into

721
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:43.239
<v Speaker 4>and conduct operations.

722
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:46.639
<v Speaker 2>So I have to also acknowledge with that comment Joe,

723
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:49.159
<v Speaker 2>that it's not necessarily fair for me to reach back

724
00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:54.920
<v Speaker 2>into the past and criticize too much because the things

725
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:59.239
<v Speaker 2>that I had the fortunate experience of having the TTPs,

726
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.400
<v Speaker 2>the SOPs, those are lessons learned from the past from

727
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.280
<v Speaker 2>these guys who developed that stuff for us. So I

728
00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:08.519
<v Speaker 2>don't mean to be overly critical of of of the guys.

729
00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:10.599
<v Speaker 2>I know they and they got the job done at

730
00:39:10.599 --> 00:39:12.800
<v Speaker 2>the end of the day, regardless of all those problems.

731
00:39:13.239 --> 00:39:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't I don't think. I don't think any

732
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:15.800
<v Speaker 1>of them can take offense.

733
00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:19.639
<v Speaker 4>We all understand is friction in combat, and it happens,

734
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.760
<v Speaker 4>and and and you know what, did Mike Tyson say,

735
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:25.719
<v Speaker 4>everybody's got a plan to get punched in the face.

736
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:29.639
<v Speaker 4>I mean, you know, they get punched in the face

737
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:33.519
<v Speaker 4>early on, and not in a way where thankfully no

738
00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:36.119
<v Speaker 4>nobody in the Ranger Force or the Air Force Special

739
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:40.159
<v Speaker 4>Air Crew are injured during the run ins. But what

740
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:42.639
<v Speaker 4>happens is the first two aircraft that have the jump

741
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:44.639
<v Speaker 4>clearing team on it have to wave off because of

742
00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:48.440
<v Speaker 4>the intense anti aircraft fire that's coming up. But the

743
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:51.800
<v Speaker 4>third aircraft in line, which had the first Battalion headquarters

744
00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:55.000
<v Speaker 4>on it and first first platoona B Company, First Battalion

745
00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:58.119
<v Speaker 4>board in on the on the on the drop zone,

746
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:03.599
<v Speaker 4>and thankfully the Cubans and Grenadians had elevated the anti

747
00:40:03.639 --> 00:40:06.960
<v Speaker 4>aircraft guns in the hills. They had sandbagged underneath them

748
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.159
<v Speaker 4>and they couldn't depress below five hundred feet. So literally

749
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:13.440
<v Speaker 4>his aircraft are coming in and there's this fire that's

750
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:16.360
<v Speaker 4>screaming right over them. This is not to say they

751
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:18.960
<v Speaker 4>didn't take any hits. There were plenty of twelve point

752
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:22.639
<v Speaker 4>seven positions and then small arms positions that were firing.

753
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:25.320
<v Speaker 4>But you could tell that they were undertrained because most

754
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:27.599
<v Speaker 4>of the hits are happening in the tail sections of

755
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:30.960
<v Speaker 4>the aircraft. They're not leading the aircraft enough. But what

756
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:34.840
<v Speaker 4>happens is the third aircraft bores in. After specter softens

757
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:38.039
<v Speaker 4>up everything again, third aircraft comes in and then the

758
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:40.199
<v Speaker 4>rest of the force waves off, and then for twenty

759
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:43.760
<v Speaker 4>five to thirty minutes, that lone ranger pull tune and

760
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:48.000
<v Speaker 4>that battalion headquarters that ATOK, that talk one is on

761
00:40:48.039 --> 00:40:50.679
<v Speaker 4>the ground. Thankfully they have their a lo their senior

762
00:40:50.679 --> 00:40:52.159
<v Speaker 4>al on the ground, Jim Roper.

763
00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:54.119
<v Speaker 1>He begins to work.

764
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:58.360
<v Speaker 4>Calling in specter on his own and then meets up

765
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:01.920
<v Speaker 4>with the FIST, the Battalion Fist Ike Eisenbart, and two

766
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:04.559
<v Speaker 4>of them get together and they start working the hills

767
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:06.880
<v Speaker 4>based on Colonel Taylor's guidance.

768
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:10.400
<v Speaker 1>But all that is happening while.

769
00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:14.679
<v Speaker 4>The rangers of first Platoon, Bee Company are assaulting up

770
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.679
<v Speaker 4>into the hills and clearing the runway. And this is

771
00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:20.920
<v Speaker 4>a reduced force. It's not a full first platoon because

772
00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:24.039
<v Speaker 4>they had crossloaded on the aircraft, so it's not even

773
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:27.440
<v Speaker 4>the entire first platoon a BEE Company, And so this

774
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:32.880
<v Speaker 4>force is down there clearing heavy light towers, rebar they're

775
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:35.519
<v Speaker 4>getting all this oil drums off the airfield so that

776
00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:38.679
<v Speaker 4>the remainder of the force can come in. And it's

777
00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:40.679
<v Speaker 4>pretty amazing that they were able to do this and

778
00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:44.400
<v Speaker 4>not one of them get killed during that time. And

779
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:46.119
<v Speaker 4>a lot of them told me, you know, the biggest

780
00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:50.280
<v Speaker 4>issue with what the Cubans and the Grenadians did wrong

781
00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:52.239
<v Speaker 4>was they didn't come down from the hills and just

782
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:55.559
<v Speaker 4>sweep us off the airfield. They let us build up

783
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:59.239
<v Speaker 4>combat power, right and that's exactly what happens. So after

784
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:02.519
<v Speaker 4>they restaff, can I apologize, you're gonna have to read

785
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:04.280
<v Speaker 4>the book if you want to figure out where who

786
00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:06.719
<v Speaker 4>was who in the zoo in terms of the airflow.

787
00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:09.960
<v Speaker 4>But they don't go in number order. I will say that.

788
00:42:11.480 --> 00:42:13.440
<v Speaker 4>But what's really interesting is when you get into the

789
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:15.280
<v Speaker 4>nitty gritty and you read about what's going on in

790
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:16.960
<v Speaker 4>each one of the aircraft, and I do that, I

791
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:19.920
<v Speaker 4>go Tom and I specifically wanted to make sure that

792
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:24.280
<v Speaker 4>ranger there was ranger representation for each aircraft in the

793
00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:28.320
<v Speaker 4>Cereal coming in for one through seven, which was the

794
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.119
<v Speaker 4>first Battalion Cereal, and then eight through twelve, which was

795
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:33.760
<v Speaker 4>the second Battalion Serial. And if you go in there,

796
00:42:33.800 --> 00:42:36.039
<v Speaker 4>you'll read and there's again as we talked about, there's

797
00:42:36.039 --> 00:42:39.159
<v Speaker 4>a lot of well known ranger names in those And

798
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:42.599
<v Speaker 4>to me, yeah, it was a mess, but these guys

799
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:45.679
<v Speaker 4>just got the job done. They just didn't screw around.

800
00:42:46.119 --> 00:42:49.079
<v Speaker 4>They re rigged guys, they got them ready to go.

801
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:52.719
<v Speaker 4>There's one instance where Gary Carpenter, the first Battalion Sergeant

802
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:56.800
<v Speaker 4>Major Gary Carpenter is a legend, made the made the

803
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:58.639
<v Speaker 4>jump in the Vietnam with the one hundred and seventy

804
00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:02.719
<v Speaker 4>three Airborne. M blessed to have met him and spoken

805
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:06.960
<v Speaker 4>with him several times. And Gary Carpenterom's got sucked right

806
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:10.119
<v Speaker 4>out of the aircraft because one of the retaining straps

807
00:43:10.119 --> 00:43:13.440
<v Speaker 4>on his ruck came off and the ruck was dangling

808
00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:14.840
<v Speaker 4>when he went to do his door check and they

809
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:17.039
<v Speaker 4>had Bruce McGraw had had to.

810
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:22.360
<v Speaker 1>Haul him in. So there's some pretty amazing stories in there.

811
00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Again, I mean, were there were a couple toad jumpers

812
00:43:25.480 --> 00:43:26.320
<v Speaker 2>on this, wasn't there?

813
00:43:26.440 --> 00:43:26.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

814
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:31.639
<v Speaker 4>Bill, Bill Feedack was one of them, and Marlon Maynard?

815
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Was it Marlon Maynard?

816
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:34.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

817
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:37.800
<v Speaker 4>I think it was Marlon Maynard because Marlon is later

818
00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:44.199
<v Speaker 4>killed on on Jeap five Juliet five. Bill actually got

819
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:47.000
<v Speaker 4>credit for the jump even though he never exited. He

820
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:49.639
<v Speaker 4>exited the aircraft, but he they hauled him back in

821
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:51.519
<v Speaker 4>and he ended up air landing later on, But he

822
00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:54.000
<v Speaker 4>got credit for the jump because he exited the aircraft

823
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:54.599
<v Speaker 4>under fire.

824
00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:57.199
<v Speaker 2>True story. Yeah, he can't argue with that.

825
00:43:57.760 --> 00:43:59.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, Bill a good guy too.

826
00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:03.239
<v Speaker 4>Again, I've been blessed to know a lot of these guys,

827
00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:05.800
<v Speaker 4>and a lot of them I met on my own,

828
00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:07.000
<v Speaker 4>but a lot of them I met through Tom, and

829
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:10.679
<v Speaker 4>without Tom's efforts, some of these stories would have never.

830
00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:11.400
<v Speaker 1>Saw the light of day.

831
00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:16.559
<v Speaker 2>So, how we have the one platoon that's on the

832
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:18.719
<v Speaker 2>ground for a prolonged period of time. How long is

833
00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:20.360
<v Speaker 2>it until the next pass?

834
00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:22.519
<v Speaker 1>Oh, you're gonna make me open the book?

835
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:26.079
<v Speaker 2>Now, I mean thereabouts. I mean, if you don't know, it's.

836
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:28.440
<v Speaker 4>About twenty five, it's about twenty five to thirty minutes

837
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:32.199
<v Speaker 4>before that next open chalk comes in. So these guys

838
00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:35.840
<v Speaker 4>are on the ground there watching specter duel it out

839
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:38.960
<v Speaker 4>with these anti aircraft positions in the hills above above

840
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:43.039
<v Speaker 4>the airfield, and they really were worried that that they

841
00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:45.000
<v Speaker 4>the enemy was gonna come out of the hills and

842
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:49.000
<v Speaker 4>just sweep them off into the sea. But once that

843
00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:52.039
<v Speaker 4>starts happening, and those initial sticks, and I will say this,

844
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:54.360
<v Speaker 4>we all we always say, oh, it was a five

845
00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:57.239
<v Speaker 4>hundred five hundred foot jump. So the first couple of

846
00:44:57.239 --> 00:44:59.440
<v Speaker 4>sticks that went out were about four hundred if I

847
00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:02.840
<v Speaker 4>remember correct, the aircrew wrote was four hundred and ninety

848
00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:06.480
<v Speaker 4>two feet AGL. By the time the later second battalion

849
00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:10.639
<v Speaker 4>sticks start coming, it's around seven hundred. Because the aircraft

850
00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:13.760
<v Speaker 4>anti aircraft fire is completely is almost completely abated. At

851
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:16.400
<v Speaker 4>that point, Specter has really cleared the gun crews out.

852
00:45:16.760 --> 00:45:19.320
<v Speaker 4>The rangers have assaulted up the hills. They've cleared those hills.

853
00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:22.000
<v Speaker 4>They are holding them, and they're looking down on what

854
00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:25.320
<v Speaker 4>was called Little Havana, which was the Cuban construction workers

855
00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:29.159
<v Speaker 4>compound in a bowl on the northern side of north

856
00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:32.119
<v Speaker 4>of the airfield. So the rangers are all in these

857
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:35.559
<v Speaker 4>positions now, and there's all these little fights, these little

858
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:37.679
<v Speaker 4>tactical level fights that I think a lot.

859
00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Of your onesies and twosies, Yeah.

860
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:41.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think the people you know that enjoy this

861
00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:44.280
<v Speaker 4>kind of material and like this kind of of combat

862
00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:48.719
<v Speaker 4>memoirs will will enjoy those real tactical level views of

863
00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:52.599
<v Speaker 4>some very well known rangers doing ranger things.

864
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:55.039
<v Speaker 2>And I have to point out you write in the

865
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:58.079
<v Speaker 2>book about a few of them who brought their personally

866
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:00.519
<v Speaker 2>owned weapons with them. So there's like some guys pulling

867
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:02.599
<v Speaker 2>out three fifty seven magnums and shoo.

868
00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:04.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah.

869
00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:06.440
<v Speaker 4>I mean there's one guy who I think he had.

870
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:09.400
<v Speaker 4>It was Dale Killinger from Second bat. He was a

871
00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:13.360
<v Speaker 4>company guy. I think he went with three personal handguns

872
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:15.760
<v Speaker 4>and he ended up giving out like two of them

873
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:17.679
<v Speaker 4>to two of his ranger buddies. He didn't have, you know,

874
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:21.920
<v Speaker 4>like there wasn't much restriction on that stuff back then.

875
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:24.559
<v Speaker 4>It was in the barracks, but he you know, like

876
00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:27.480
<v Speaker 4>stuff was kind of you know, unlike nowadays. Like when

877
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:28.840
<v Speaker 4>I was in the Marines, if you had a personally

878
00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:30.679
<v Speaker 4>owned weapon, you could check it into your unit armory

879
00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:33.119
<v Speaker 4>and check it out when you wanted to. But back then,

880
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:36.159
<v Speaker 4>I think, you know, they the hollowed out ceilings in

881
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:38.159
<v Speaker 4>the in the cutouts in the wall lockers that you

882
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:40.400
<v Speaker 4>could hide stuff in. And I think I think the

883
00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:42.079
<v Speaker 4>guys took took full advantage of that.

884
00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:46.079
<v Speaker 2>And so how long is it before we get all

885
00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:47.239
<v Speaker 2>the rangers on the ground.

886
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:53.639
<v Speaker 4>I believe the last the first air landing sea when

887
00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:56.920
<v Speaker 4>thirty comes in at zero seven thirty six, so the

888
00:46:57.039 --> 00:47:01.199
<v Speaker 4>jump kicks off. That was it five these six if

889
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:02.880
<v Speaker 4>I remember ish.

890
00:47:03.320 --> 00:47:06.400
<v Speaker 2>So some of them are jumping during daylight, right, Yeah,

891
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.000
<v Speaker 2>it's it's pretty light out by the time, you know.

892
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:11.280
<v Speaker 4>A couple of the guys told me it was very

893
00:47:11.320 --> 00:47:12.760
<v Speaker 4>light out, and a couple of guys told me it

894
00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:16.159
<v Speaker 4>was getting light out when they approached. But pretty much

895
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:17.920
<v Speaker 4>it was daylight and that was a lot of the

896
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:19.920
<v Speaker 4>Rangers were pissed off about that, and they blamed the

897
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:24.320
<v Speaker 4>Marines because the rumor was that the Marines couldn't land

898
00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:28.559
<v Speaker 4>in the dark and they had to hold up the

899
00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:34.320
<v Speaker 4>Ranger operation to accommodate the Marines going in simultaneously, which

900
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:38.079
<v Speaker 4>was a bunch of bullshit, because I've interviewed a lot

901
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:43.239
<v Speaker 4>of the Marines, especially the Marine pilots from two six

902
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:45.639
<v Speaker 4>to one who flew those missions. All the lead pilots

903
00:47:45.639 --> 00:47:48.800
<v Speaker 4>were MVG qualified before they left the States. In fact,

904
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:50.760
<v Speaker 4>when they took off their first seials to make their

905
00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:53.599
<v Speaker 4>assault into Pearl's Airport, they took off at zero three

906
00:47:53.679 --> 00:47:58.000
<v Speaker 4>thirty in the dark in a rain squall. It Actually,

907
00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:01.280
<v Speaker 4>the reason why the Ranger jump got pushed back was

908
00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:04.920
<v Speaker 4>because they had pushed forward, was because they had to

909
00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:07.360
<v Speaker 4>accommodate some of the smooth units that needed a stage

910
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:10.880
<v Speaker 4>in Barbados. They were late leaving, and then there was

911
00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:16.320
<v Speaker 4>some load out and loading issues, specifically with some TF

912
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:19.039
<v Speaker 4>one sixty aircraft once they got to Barbados, and.

913
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:20.920
<v Speaker 2>They would have gotten on the ground a little bit

914
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.480
<v Speaker 2>sooner if some of those air initial aircraft didn't have

915
00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:25.639
<v Speaker 2>to peel off because of the anti aircraft fire.

916
00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

917
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:29.519
<v Speaker 4>And they put in AC one thirty went in and

918
00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:33.480
<v Speaker 4>did a re mission rekis flight before the jump. The

919
00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:37.000
<v Speaker 4>main body arrived and they were picked up right away.

920
00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:40.440
<v Speaker 4>In fact, there was a spotlight that was running that

921
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:42.519
<v Speaker 4>picked up not only the AC one thirty, but it

922
00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:45.519
<v Speaker 4>ended up picking up Jim Hobson's aircraft. He's the one

923
00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:48.559
<v Speaker 4>who jumped first Platoon, B Company in the battalion quarters

924
00:48:48.719 --> 00:48:52.800
<v Speaker 4>for first Battalion. So they knew early on that there

925
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:57.000
<v Speaker 4>was something coming, and I don't you know, and there

926
00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:59.039
<v Speaker 4>was other actions that took part. You know, there's some

927
00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:03.920
<v Speaker 4>Navy Seal action to reconnoiter points alinas that didn't didn't

928
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:06.480
<v Speaker 4>end up coming going off because of a number of

929
00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:11.519
<v Speaker 4>different issues. So there were a lot of things going

930
00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:13.679
<v Speaker 4>on at one time, a lot of elements going in

931
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:17.079
<v Speaker 4>at one time. You know, I think lant Com at

932
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:19.599
<v Speaker 4>the time, it was lant Com. It's not lant Com anymore.

933
00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:23.000
<v Speaker 4>They don't exist. But lant Com at the time wanted

934
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:26.480
<v Speaker 4>to synchronize all of the actions at once, which was ridiculous.

935
00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:29.679
<v Speaker 4>They didn't need to do that. Once the first unit

936
00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:33.000
<v Speaker 4>goes on the gig is up. I mean, everybody knows

937
00:49:33.039 --> 00:49:37.840
<v Speaker 4>what's going on, right, So trying to synchronize the Marines,

938
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:41.760
<v Speaker 4>the Rangers, and the special mission units all at one

939
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:43.960
<v Speaker 4>time was to me just a stupid thing to do.

940
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:48.800
<v Speaker 4>Not to mention, they weren't using Greenwich meantime, they were

941
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:51.840
<v Speaker 4>using local time versus I mean, there was a whole

942
00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:57.039
<v Speaker 4>host of issues that plagued the operation. But again, I

943
00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:00.159
<v Speaker 4>hate to sound like a cheerleader, but the guy has

944
00:50:00.199 --> 00:50:03.440
<v Speaker 4>got the job done, Yeah, regardless of all the obstacles,

945
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:07.800
<v Speaker 4>the shitty intelligence about where the positions were, all of

946
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:10.320
<v Speaker 4>that stuff, where the students were. That was another one

947
00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:12.800
<v Speaker 4>that comes into play later on with the Grand As Mission,

948
00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:16.159
<v Speaker 4>the rescue mission, because I like to call it the

949
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:17.519
<v Speaker 4>twenty six minute Rescue.

950
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:21.639
<v Speaker 2>One of the things I really enjoyed about the book

951
00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:25.920
<v Speaker 2>was that it really does take you inside the perspective

952
00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:28.880
<v Speaker 2>of like the tabspec for ranger on the ground, and

953
00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:33.000
<v Speaker 2>like you're experiencing the chaos as he experiences it. You know,

954
00:50:33.079 --> 00:50:35.639
<v Speaker 2>it's one thing for like you and I years later

955
00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:38.320
<v Speaker 2>to pick apart the operation and we understand all of

956
00:50:38.360 --> 00:50:41.719
<v Speaker 2>these things, but those soldiers in that moment don't have

957
00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:45.360
<v Speaker 2>that information, and so there's like some great moments where

958
00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:47.840
<v Speaker 2>like a dev grew guy shows up out of nowhere

959
00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:50.840
<v Speaker 2>with long hair, like oh hey, guys, and the Rangers

960
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:53.559
<v Speaker 2>are like what who are you? Or another time where

961
00:50:53.559 --> 00:50:57.280
<v Speaker 2>a Jasock officer like order some of the Rangers to

962
00:50:57.280 --> 00:50:59.440
<v Speaker 2>go do some crazy mission and the guys like who

963
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:02.280
<v Speaker 2>are you? Not unless my battalion commander says, so.

964
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:06.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I don't work for you, buddy. Yeah, yeah it does.

965
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:10.880
<v Speaker 4>There's the the tab spec for you know, you're talking

966
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:14.719
<v Speaker 4>about that guy, that guy. It's up front and and

967
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:16.920
<v Speaker 4>and prevalent throughout the story. But I also want to

968
00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:20.880
<v Speaker 4>point out that the key leadership moments occur, like there's

969
00:51:20.920 --> 00:51:24.239
<v Speaker 4>a lot of those, like especially in the aircraft before

970
00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:28.039
<v Speaker 4>the jump, like guys Dale Kennedy making some really great

971
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:32.079
<v Speaker 4>decisions there alongside Doc Donovan. If your first first ranger

972
00:51:32.119 --> 00:51:34.760
<v Speaker 4>battalion alum, then you know who Doc Donovan.

973
00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:38.039
<v Speaker 2>He's a legend. Yeah, lots of people, no Doc.

974
00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

975
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:41.920
<v Speaker 4>So I mean these guys get together at this critical

976
00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:44.159
<v Speaker 4>point in time in the Jump and they're like, no,

977
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:46.559
<v Speaker 4>don't d rig just keep your rigs on. I mean

978
00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:49.239
<v Speaker 4>those are sprinkled in there too, But you're right, I

979
00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:51.119
<v Speaker 4>mean we wrote it that way. We wrote it to

980
00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:54.599
<v Speaker 4>be sort of a love letter to this that tab

981
00:51:54.679 --> 00:51:58.639
<v Speaker 4>spec spec for who's you know, it has to be

982
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:01.679
<v Speaker 4>the point that this strategic corporal at times, right, he's

983
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:04.280
<v Speaker 4>got to he's got to lead an assault because I

984
00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:07.800
<v Speaker 4>don't know where my sergeant is or I've got to securities.

985
00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:10.760
<v Speaker 4>I've got to secure these students because that's our mission.

986
00:52:11.199 --> 00:52:13.119
<v Speaker 4>And yeah, I'd love to go shoot out the armored

987
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:15.400
<v Speaker 4>vehicle that just showed up, but my job is to

988
00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:18.039
<v Speaker 4>protect these students. You know, Like this, there's all these

989
00:52:18.119 --> 00:52:23.199
<v Speaker 4>little vignettes baked into it that I think that rangers

990
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:24.559
<v Speaker 4>especially will get a lot out of.

991
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:28.159
<v Speaker 2>Tell us a little bit about the actual rescue of

992
00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:31.400
<v Speaker 2>the True Blue medical students because it's like a little

993
00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:34.360
<v Speaker 2>bit of almost a comical scene that takes place amongst

994
00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:35.320
<v Speaker 2>all of this mayhem.

995
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:37.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, you can.

996
00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:41.519
<v Speaker 4>You know, the True Blue is on the eastern side

997
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:44.000
<v Speaker 4>of the campus, and I think a lot of the

998
00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:46.519
<v Speaker 4>Rangers that were part of the platoon that had to

999
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:49.440
<v Speaker 4>secure them, they knew where the campus was, but they

1000
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:55.880
<v Speaker 4>they the approach was through enemy territory essentially, so as

1001
00:52:55.880 --> 00:53:00.079
<v Speaker 4>they clear up that eastern side of the runway, it

1002
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:02.159
<v Speaker 4>rises up a little bit into true Blue and then

1003
00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:04.760
<v Speaker 4>drops down and I think a lot of the Rangers

1004
00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:06.480
<v Speaker 4>as they got to that hill and they kind of

1005
00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:07.679
<v Speaker 4>lay it up to get a lay of the land,

1006
00:53:07.719 --> 00:53:09.760
<v Speaker 4>and you're kind of doing that little bit of leader's rereki

1007
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:12.239
<v Speaker 4>before you go charging into the objective right, and they're

1008
00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:15.199
<v Speaker 4>looking and they see all these little faces sticking out

1009
00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:17.920
<v Speaker 4>from between curtains, like what the hell is going on?

1010
00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:20.320
<v Speaker 4>Because these students know what's going on. They've been watching

1011
00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:23.599
<v Speaker 4>aircraft fly over the airfield for for hours now, or

1012
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:26.199
<v Speaker 4>a couple of hours at least, and all of a sudden,

1013
00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:28.320
<v Speaker 4>you know, they kind of they bounce in there and

1014
00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:32.519
<v Speaker 4>they start pulling all these these students together and they

1015
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:35.039
<v Speaker 4>secure them in the library, which ends up turning into

1016
00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:39.480
<v Speaker 4>an operating room, especially when the Jamus shows up.

1017
00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:42.840
<v Speaker 1>But it's funny.

1018
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:45.599
<v Speaker 4>Because they're like, Okay, we've got you. Don't worry, we're

1019
00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:46.960
<v Speaker 4>gonna get you out of here. And they're like, what

1020
00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:47.400
<v Speaker 4>about the.

1021
00:53:47.360 --> 00:53:47.880
<v Speaker 1>Rest of us?

1022
00:53:48.679 --> 00:53:50.239
<v Speaker 4>And the Rangers are like, what do you mean the

1023
00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:54.320
<v Speaker 4>rest of us? They're like, there's a whole nother campus

1024
00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:57.960
<v Speaker 4>above the airfield at Grand Ends, and the Rangers are like,

1025
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:00.599
<v Speaker 4>what are you kidding me. No, We'll get on the phone,

1026
00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:04.639
<v Speaker 4>hold on, and they call up the other campus and they're, yeah,

1027
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:05.239
<v Speaker 4>we're over here.

1028
00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:06.519
<v Speaker 1>We got one hundred and.

1029
00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:09.360
<v Speaker 4>Thirty something people and if you give us some time,

1030
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:11.679
<v Speaker 4>we'll call the rest in so we can get everybody here.

1031
00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:13.599
<v Speaker 1>And so the Rangers are.

1032
00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:18.239
<v Speaker 4>Like okay, and it gets passed up the chain and

1033
00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:20.480
<v Speaker 4>it gets handed off the second Ranger battalion and this

1034
00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:23.239
<v Speaker 4>happens on the twenty sixth. It's the second day the

1035
00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:28.079
<v Speaker 4>operation where they go into too Grand Ants. And the

1036
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:31.039
<v Speaker 4>funny thing was it was originally going to be a

1037
00:54:31.039 --> 00:54:33.800
<v Speaker 4>Marine Corps mission, but all the Marine Corps rifle companies

1038
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:38.599
<v Speaker 4>had been tasked out to different missions north of the

1039
00:54:38.599 --> 00:54:43.199
<v Speaker 4>boundary line for the two tfs, so there were no

1040
00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:47.880
<v Speaker 4>Marine rifle units to assist in the recovery of the

1041
00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:50.280
<v Speaker 4>students from Grand Ants. But they had the aircraft and

1042
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:52.920
<v Speaker 4>that's what the Rangers needed. And so there was a

1043
00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:58.280
<v Speaker 4>bit of a we'll call it a discussion on the

1044
00:54:58.280 --> 00:54:59.880
<v Speaker 4>bridge of the Guam about who was going to go

1045
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:04.239
<v Speaker 4>on the aircraft and rescue the students. The marine The

1046
00:55:04.280 --> 00:55:07.360
<v Speaker 4>mal commander wanted to be Marines, and he's like, I

1047
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:10.719
<v Speaker 4>need you know, twelve hours to get my marines together,

1048
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:13.119
<v Speaker 4>and Schwartzkov looks at him and goes, no, that's not

1049
00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:15.880
<v Speaker 4>gonna happen. We're gonna put rangers on those aircraft. They're

1050
00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:17.719
<v Speaker 4>going to go in and they're going to rescue those students,

1051
00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:21.679
<v Speaker 4>and that's going to be it. And Schwartzkov was a

1052
00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:24.360
<v Speaker 4>two star at the time, the commander was a full

1053
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:27.599
<v Speaker 4>bird colonel. It was a little bit of posturing and

1054
00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:29.559
<v Speaker 4>a little bit of words thrown around, and then all

1055
00:55:29.599 --> 00:55:32.239
<v Speaker 4>of a sudden it was you have your orders, I'll

1056
00:55:32.280 --> 00:55:34.480
<v Speaker 4>be there, I'll fire you, and I'll find somebody who

1057
00:55:34.480 --> 00:55:37.800
<v Speaker 4>will execute what I want storm and Norman was not

1058
00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:42.400
<v Speaker 4>going to be dissuaded. So thankfully Granny Amos, who is

1059
00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:46.559
<v Speaker 4>the commander officer of six one one, had gone to

1060
00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:49.599
<v Speaker 4>VMI with Colonel Hagler, the second Italian commander. They got

1061
00:55:49.639 --> 00:55:52.800
<v Speaker 4>together over at Selinas and they whipped together a plan,

1062
00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:56.800
<v Speaker 4>fragoed it out to the companies, and basically, in twenty

1063
00:55:56.800 --> 00:56:00.679
<v Speaker 4>six minutes, they put multiple flights of Helo on the ground.

1064
00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:03.400
<v Speaker 4>The rangers went in first on ch forty six's up

1065
00:56:03.400 --> 00:56:08.599
<v Speaker 4>along this beach strand now interestingly the beach when they

1066
00:56:08.599 --> 00:56:11.800
<v Speaker 4>first looked at it. The tide had not started coming

1067
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:14.000
<v Speaker 4>back in, but by the time they started flying in,

1068
00:56:14.559 --> 00:56:16.800
<v Speaker 4>the tide was in. So they had a very thin

1069
00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:19.039
<v Speaker 4>strip of land to put the hels in and Co

1070
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:21.000
<v Speaker 4>Marine don't care. We'll land our hels and water.

1071
00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:23.519
<v Speaker 2>And I mean, you're they're very exposed too out there

1072
00:56:23.559 --> 00:56:24.000
<v Speaker 2>on the beach.

1073
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:26.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, they started taking fire the moment they started coming in.

1074
00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:29.400
<v Speaker 4>They brought in a seven's, they brought an AC one thirty,

1075
00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:33.639
<v Speaker 4>they had the eighty second was on the island by then,

1076
00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:36.880
<v Speaker 4>including batteries of their artillery. They were firing one oh

1077
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:43.199
<v Speaker 4>five's at the what they thought with Cuban positions. So

1078
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:45.800
<v Speaker 4>all the supporting fire goes in, but they're still taking fire,

1079
00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:47.599
<v Speaker 4>and a number of the aircraft take hits going in,

1080
00:56:48.679 --> 00:56:51.159
<v Speaker 4>but the most damage gets done to the aircraft by

1081
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:54.320
<v Speaker 4>palm trees. And there's a couple of there's famous pictures

1082
00:56:54.360 --> 00:56:57.199
<v Speaker 4>of a H forty six sitting on a beach. Everybody

1083
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:00.519
<v Speaker 4>thinks that that's their aircraft that got hit and didn't

1084
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:04.719
<v Speaker 4>take off, and it wasn't. Sea Company and my buddy

1085
00:57:04.760 --> 00:57:08.440
<v Speaker 4>Kurt Star went in on air aircraft and air aircraft

1086
00:57:08.840 --> 00:57:11.000
<v Speaker 4>basically what happened was the palm tree got hit by

1087
00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:14.639
<v Speaker 4>the roderwash, forcing it to go back, and then when

1088
00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:17.920
<v Speaker 4>it came forward, it hit the aircraft. And to say it,

1089
00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:19.599
<v Speaker 4>they thought it was going to disable it. But the

1090
00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:22.840
<v Speaker 4>crew chief under fire the aircraft. The crew comes off

1091
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:25.519
<v Speaker 4>the aircraft, the crew chief climbs up there, it checks

1092
00:57:25.519 --> 00:57:27.119
<v Speaker 4>it out. He goes, I think we can make it

1093
00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:29.480
<v Speaker 4>back out to the flotilla. They get back on the

1094
00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:32.679
<v Speaker 4>aircraft and they fly it out. Once the rangers secure

1095
00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:37.239
<v Speaker 4>all of the students. And the interesting part was again

1096
00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:40.199
<v Speaker 4>they had phone communication between the campuses. So what they

1097
00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:42.760
<v Speaker 4>did was they told the students, hey, tie white strips

1098
00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:45.760
<v Speaker 4>of cloth on both arms, so we know your students,

1099
00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:49.159
<v Speaker 4>mattresses up against the windows, and one small bag per

1100
00:57:49.519 --> 00:57:53.880
<v Speaker 4>and that's it. And even then, some of those aircraft

1101
00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:56.280
<v Speaker 4>went out pretty heavy. Now, the rangers went in in

1102
00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:58.400
<v Speaker 4>forty six is, but they brought fifty threes in to

1103
00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:01.239
<v Speaker 4>pull the students out. And some of these were coming

1104
00:58:01.239 --> 00:58:03.760
<v Speaker 4>out with sixty packs on board, including the flight crew.

1105
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:06.360
<v Speaker 4>I mean, they were way overloaded. Some of them were

1106
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:11.519
<v Speaker 4>doing this dip build up, air speed rise, dip rise,

1107
00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:13.400
<v Speaker 4>dip out to the flotilla.

1108
00:58:13.639 --> 00:58:15.119
<v Speaker 1>That's how heavy they were coming out.

1109
00:58:15.639 --> 00:58:17.800
<v Speaker 4>The forty sixes came back in and then one of

1110
00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:19.559
<v Speaker 4>them did the same thing the other one did. It

1111
00:58:19.639 --> 00:58:24.079
<v Speaker 4>hit a palm tree, but it destroyed the aft rotor

1112
00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:27.239
<v Speaker 4>system and that one was totaled as a result. A

1113
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:31.519
<v Speaker 4>ranger squad gets left on the beach after everybody's eve act.

1114
00:58:32.119 --> 00:58:33.000
<v Speaker 4>Now they call back.

1115
00:58:33.079 --> 00:58:35.760
<v Speaker 1>Thankfully they had a radio. They called back.

1116
00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:38.119
<v Speaker 4>At first they were going to e and e them

1117
00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:41.079
<v Speaker 4>back through the lines, but the eighty second was up

1118
00:58:41.119 --> 00:58:44.840
<v Speaker 4>there and they didn't have running passwords to work with

1119
00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:46.800
<v Speaker 4>the eighty second, and they were worried about getting lit up.

1120
00:58:47.639 --> 00:58:50.840
<v Speaker 4>So basically, the guys in that squad decide to go

1121
00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:54.039
<v Speaker 4>check out the ch forty six and they pull out

1122
00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:57.079
<v Speaker 4>all of the life rafts out of it, and one

1123
00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:59.119
<v Speaker 4>of them shot the pieces and they get two of them.

1124
00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:01.280
<v Speaker 4>They put it together and then they they make their

1125
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:04.199
<v Speaker 4>way out. Well, one of them starts to sink, so

1126
00:59:04.199 --> 00:59:06.559
<v Speaker 4>they basically put all the non swimmers in the in

1127
00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:10.320
<v Speaker 4>the uh in the life raft with all the equipment

1128
00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:12.079
<v Speaker 4>and weapons, and the rest of the guys just hold

1129
00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:14.760
<v Speaker 4>on the side and paddle and they finally get out

1130
00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:16.719
<v Speaker 4>and they get a small patrol boat from the USS.

1131
00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:19.719
<v Speaker 4>Karen finds them and then brings them on board. They

1132
00:59:19.760 --> 00:59:24.039
<v Speaker 4>get their clothes, they get their uniforms laundered, the grenades

1133
00:59:24.039 --> 00:59:26.599
<v Speaker 4>get thrown overboard because they're worried about salt water contamination.

1134
00:59:27.039 --> 00:59:30.079
<v Speaker 4>They get fresh AMMO and that's when that jaysock officer

1135
00:59:30.159 --> 00:59:33.199
<v Speaker 4>talks to the to the platoon leader at the time,

1136
00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:35.320
<v Speaker 4>and he tells them that I don't think so, I

1137
00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:37.519
<v Speaker 4>gotta wait to talk to my Theatian commander. But the

1138
00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:39.960
<v Speaker 4>next day they come back, they get flown back out

1139
00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:44.000
<v Speaker 4>and they're in pipe this brand clean, spanking new uniforms

1140
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:45.880
<v Speaker 4>that looks like everybody else is dirty.

1141
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:48.360
<v Speaker 2>Has got like two three days worth the.

1142
00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:50.280
<v Speaker 4>Grime and crap on their uniforms, and these guys are all,

1143
00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:54.000
<v Speaker 4>you know, looking spiffy, and you know, it was it

1144
00:59:54.039 --> 00:59:56.920
<v Speaker 4>was pretty pretty. I don't think it was funny for them, obviously,

1145
00:59:57.039 --> 00:59:59.719
<v Speaker 4>you know, there's a lot of unknown there. But again,

1146
01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:03.360
<v Speaker 4>they make it work. They make it out, They figure

1147
01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:05.760
<v Speaker 4>it out, they work the problem out, they find a

1148
01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:08.000
<v Speaker 4>way out, and they make they make it out without

1149
01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:09.400
<v Speaker 4>getting themselves killed, which.

1150
01:00:09.199 --> 01:00:13.880
<v Speaker 2>Is there's all one more big mission that happens uh

1151
01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:17.159
<v Speaker 2>during this battle, during this operation. But there's a couple

1152
01:00:17.199 --> 01:00:20.199
<v Speaker 2>of interesting vignettes that I'd like to ask you about.

1153
01:00:21.199 --> 01:00:25.519
<v Speaker 2>The first one being the jeep that unfortunately runs into

1154
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:28.360
<v Speaker 2>an ambush on the side of the airfield, and the

1155
01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:31.800
<v Speaker 2>second I had no idea that this had happened. You

1156
01:00:31.880 --> 01:00:35.679
<v Speaker 2>write about the Rangers engaging basically an armored column like

1157
01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:38.000
<v Speaker 2>armored vehicles with recoil ass rifles.

1158
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:42.360
<v Speaker 4>I was like, yho, yeah, So on the first day,

1159
01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:48.159
<v Speaker 4>they really understanding of the battle space was very very thin,

1160
01:00:48.559 --> 01:00:53.840
<v Speaker 4>and they had worked out scheme of maneuver back at

1161
01:00:54.079 --> 01:00:57.400
<v Speaker 4>at Hunter before they had taken off. So Alpha Company

1162
01:00:57.519 --> 01:01:01.079
<v Speaker 4>First Bat had its jeeps. They were gonna use their

1163
01:01:01.119 --> 01:01:03.679
<v Speaker 4>jeeps like pickets, right, they were gonna they were gonna

1164
01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:06.559
<v Speaker 4>form a picket line around the airfield along the major

1165
01:01:06.679 --> 01:01:11.440
<v Speaker 4>major avenues of approach, and basically, you know, they were

1166
01:01:11.679 --> 01:01:13.000
<v Speaker 4>the jeeps back then were.

1167
01:01:12.920 --> 01:01:14.840
<v Speaker 1>Equipped with recoill it.

1168
01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:16.920
<v Speaker 4>They well, they did never recall this rifle on that

1169
01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:23.320
<v Speaker 4>on that one in particular, but they did have flash launcher.

1170
01:01:23.679 --> 01:01:26.760
<v Speaker 4>The old I think they're M two oh two's basically

1171
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:29.639
<v Speaker 4>like four laws in a block that you could fire.

1172
01:01:29.679 --> 01:01:32.039
<v Speaker 4>I think if you remember the old Schwarzenegger movie, Commander

1173
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:35.199
<v Speaker 4>uses one of them in that they had flash launchers

1174
01:01:35.239 --> 01:01:40.199
<v Speaker 4>they had. They had a man pad on the back

1175
01:01:40.239 --> 01:01:42.000
<v Speaker 4>of the and then they crew mout. They had an

1176
01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:45.800
<v Speaker 4>M sixty mounted on top. And you know, they had

1177
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:48.360
<v Speaker 4>five rangers assigned to the jeep. They had the gunner,

1178
01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:51.440
<v Speaker 4>the jeep commander, the assistant jeep commander, and then they

1179
01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:54.880
<v Speaker 4>had two other rangers assigned to it. And so it's

1180
01:01:54.920 --> 01:01:57.880
<v Speaker 4>a Randy Klein and Mark Rademacher, two sergeants, two well

1181
01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:03.639
<v Speaker 4>respected sergeants Marlon Maynard, Russell Robinson, and Tim Bromick on

1182
01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:07.440
<v Speaker 4>the gun. They roll out to where they think they're

1183
01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:10.599
<v Speaker 4>blocking position is and they're actually being trailed by a

1184
01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:13.719
<v Speaker 4>ranger named Frank Moore in another jeep behind them, although

1185
01:02:13.719 --> 01:02:16.760
<v Speaker 4>Frank doesn't have any other rangers on his jeep. But

1186
01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:22.440
<v Speaker 4>they move to an intersection and they stop and Mark

1187
01:02:22.519 --> 01:02:24.440
<v Speaker 4>and Randy break out the map and they're taking a

1188
01:02:24.440 --> 01:02:26.320
<v Speaker 4>look at the map and they're doing a little terrain appreciation.

1189
01:02:26.360 --> 01:02:28.400
<v Speaker 4>They're trying to figure out if there where their blocking

1190
01:02:28.440 --> 01:02:30.760
<v Speaker 4>position is. And Frank runs out of his jeep and

1191
01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:32.639
<v Speaker 4>he says, hey, Sergeant, I think we've gone too far.

1192
01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:35.559
<v Speaker 4>Frank's is speed four. He's like, I think we've gone too.

1193
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:36.159
<v Speaker 1>Far far.

1194
01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:40.480
<v Speaker 4>And Mark's like, hey, look, we got it. You can

1195
01:02:40.519 --> 01:02:43.079
<v Speaker 4>head back. If we go out too far, we'll turn

1196
01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:46.039
<v Speaker 4>around and we'll come back. And so the guys they

1197
01:02:46.480 --> 01:02:48.639
<v Speaker 4>Frank turns around heads back to the airfield because they

1198
01:02:48.679 --> 01:02:50.519
<v Speaker 4>need the jeeps back at the airfield as well. The

1199
01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:56.480
<v Speaker 4>spars and Mark and Randy and crew take off towards

1200
01:02:56.800 --> 01:02:59.840
<v Speaker 4>what they believe is their blocking position. The intersection where

1201
01:02:59.840 --> 01:03:02.280
<v Speaker 4>they stopped at was actually where their blocking position was

1202
01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:04.480
<v Speaker 4>supposed to be, but they keep going out because they

1203
01:03:04.519 --> 01:03:07.519
<v Speaker 4>think it's further out. Again, the maps aren't very good,

1204
01:03:08.039 --> 01:03:12.079
<v Speaker 4>and they're trying to do terrain appreciation. They drive past

1205
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:16.239
<v Speaker 4>a drive in movie theater, which up until the last

1206
01:03:16.239 --> 01:03:19.400
<v Speaker 4>major hurricane to hit the island was still there, but

1207
01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:22.880
<v Speaker 4>it's not anymore. They drove past that, and then they

1208
01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:25.000
<v Speaker 4>realized they had gone too far, And when they had

1209
01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:30.280
<v Speaker 4>done that, a squad of Grenadians had saw them drive

1210
01:03:30.360 --> 01:03:33.239
<v Speaker 4>by and basically took up line almost like an L

1211
01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:37.679
<v Speaker 4>shape shaped ambush along the roadway, including an RPG, And

1212
01:03:37.719 --> 01:03:41.400
<v Speaker 4>when they drove back, they fired fired at the jeep

1213
01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:43.880
<v Speaker 4>and they hit it with an RPG, immobilizing it. A

1214
01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:46.480
<v Speaker 4>couple of the rangers are killed outright Russell and Marlin

1215
01:03:46.519 --> 01:03:49.400
<v Speaker 4>are killed outright. Tim is hit by a burst of fire.

1216
01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:51.800
<v Speaker 4>Hits him in the helmet and the leg, and he's

1217
01:03:51.800 --> 01:03:54.840
<v Speaker 4>also hit one other place. He gets knocked off the

1218
01:03:55.159 --> 01:03:59.000
<v Speaker 4>gun mount, but he's alive. Randy is killed outright as well.

1219
01:03:59.480 --> 01:04:01.199
<v Speaker 4>Mark is able to get out of the jeep with

1220
01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:04.079
<v Speaker 4>his two oh three. They take up position behind the

1221
01:04:04.159 --> 01:04:12.239
<v Speaker 4>jeep and Mark knows they're in dire streets. Tim has

1222
01:04:12.280 --> 01:04:17.599
<v Speaker 4>his forty five, but he doesn't the M sixty didn't fire.

1223
01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:21.960
<v Speaker 4>It was I'd have to talk to my buddy jose

1224
01:04:22.519 --> 01:04:25.280
<v Speaker 4>Gordon again because he described to me what he thinks

1225
01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:28.679
<v Speaker 4>was wrong with the gun at the time. I think

1226
01:04:28.679 --> 01:04:30.599
<v Speaker 4>I have it in the book. I describe what happened

1227
01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:33.639
<v Speaker 4>to it from what he told me. But anyway, Mark

1228
01:04:33.679 --> 01:04:37.360
<v Speaker 4>basically tells Tim go back and get help. Go run

1229
01:04:37.480 --> 01:04:39.559
<v Speaker 4>right back to the airfield and get help. And Tim

1230
01:04:39.559 --> 01:04:41.360
<v Speaker 4>didn't want to leave him. He's like, Sergeant, I'm not

1231
01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:45.679
<v Speaker 4>leaving you, and he basically makes it an order. And

1232
01:04:45.719 --> 01:04:48.360
<v Speaker 4>when you're a ranger I think he was a specialist

1233
01:04:48.400 --> 01:04:50.519
<v Speaker 4>at a time, No, he's a PFC. When you're a ranger,

1234
01:04:50.559 --> 01:04:53.480
<v Speaker 4>PFC and a ranger sergeant gives you an order you're

1235
01:04:53.480 --> 01:04:55.880
<v Speaker 4>going to execute it. And he just as he goes

1236
01:04:55.880 --> 01:04:57.960
<v Speaker 4>to take off, Mark far as his forty millimeter and

1237
01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:00.000
<v Speaker 4>he kills one of the Grenadians. And then he charged

1238
01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:02.559
<v Speaker 4>across the road and he's he's shot down as he

1239
01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:04.920
<v Speaker 4>assaults the other side of the road. Tim makes it

1240
01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:08.119
<v Speaker 4>all the way back down, but he's bleeding heavily. They

1241
01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:11.599
<v Speaker 4>secure him and he basically starts raging, they're killing my team.

1242
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:13.960
<v Speaker 4>You got to go back. They pull him in the hole,

1243
01:05:14.159 --> 01:05:16.840
<v Speaker 4>they start treating him. Doc Donovan shows up. They pack

1244
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:19.880
<v Speaker 4>him out to the to the aid station, but they

1245
01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:27.559
<v Speaker 4>end up mounting a patrol led by Sid ferrar, Jose Gordon,

1246
01:05:27.639 --> 01:05:29.760
<v Speaker 4>Max Dello. A lot of these guys are in in

1247
01:05:29.840 --> 01:05:32.360
<v Speaker 4>the book. You can read about it, Tony Nunneley. It's

1248
01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:34.519
<v Speaker 4>a lot of well known rangers names that are part

1249
01:05:34.559 --> 01:05:36.760
<v Speaker 4>of this patrol. They try and make it out to

1250
01:05:36.880 --> 01:05:40.039
<v Speaker 4>the out to where the jeep is, but they can't.

1251
01:05:40.039 --> 01:05:43.440
<v Speaker 4>They get ambushed. Sid Ferrara is shot. They packed Kelly

1252
01:05:43.480 --> 01:05:45.159
<v Speaker 4>Vendon packs him out. He's a Word of the Bronze

1253
01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:48.559
<v Speaker 4>Star for evaking him out. Him and Johnny Welton get

1254
01:05:48.639 --> 01:05:50.760
<v Speaker 4>finally gets Sid who's a big guy up the hill

1255
01:05:51.719 --> 01:05:53.960
<v Speaker 4>and then a jeep comes up in his and is

1256
01:05:54.000 --> 01:05:57.440
<v Speaker 4>able to evac him. But as they're up there maintaining overwatch,

1257
01:05:58.159 --> 01:06:01.960
<v Speaker 4>they see this is before Sid gets shot. They see

1258
01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:06.440
<v Speaker 4>these BTR sixties coming down the roadway, and they basically

1259
01:06:06.519 --> 01:06:10.480
<v Speaker 4>set up a law ambush and they miss, and and

1260
01:06:10.519 --> 01:06:13.239
<v Speaker 4>the BTR sixties keep going and they hit this top

1261
01:06:13.280 --> 01:06:15.639
<v Speaker 4>of this slight rise at the end of the airfield

1262
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:20.760
<v Speaker 4>and all hell breaks loose, like every ranger within range

1263
01:06:21.079 --> 01:06:24.280
<v Speaker 4>starts engaging these things. And the weird thing about it is,

1264
01:06:25.079 --> 01:06:27.400
<v Speaker 4>if they would have kept charging down into the airfield

1265
01:06:27.599 --> 01:06:30.440
<v Speaker 4>with their main guns going, they could have wiped out

1266
01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:31.159
<v Speaker 4>the better part of.

1267
01:06:31.159 --> 01:06:33.360
<v Speaker 1>Two battalions and rangers. But they don't.

1268
01:06:33.400 --> 01:06:36.000
<v Speaker 4>They hesitate, and that allows the rangers to get laws

1269
01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:39.559
<v Speaker 4>and M sixty seven ninety mills rifles in action, and

1270
01:06:39.679 --> 01:06:43.880
<v Speaker 4>guys legends like Jimmy Pickering, Right, these guys end up

1271
01:06:44.039 --> 01:06:49.679
<v Speaker 4>blasting the crap out of these these BTRs. The first

1272
01:06:49.679 --> 01:06:52.440
<v Speaker 4>one backs up into the second one and it stops,

1273
01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:54.599
<v Speaker 4>and that gives them all the time they need to

1274
01:06:54.639 --> 01:06:58.440
<v Speaker 4>blast these these things. And the third BTR backs out

1275
01:06:58.519 --> 01:07:01.760
<v Speaker 4>and then they start calling inspector and specter knocks it out.

1276
01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:06.760
<v Speaker 4>But guy guys were telling me, I'm sitting behind the

1277
01:07:06.760 --> 01:07:08.920
<v Speaker 4>side to my weapon, like I'm on a range, and

1278
01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:10.840
<v Speaker 4>these guys are trying to pour out of these BTR

1279
01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:14.000
<v Speaker 4>sixties and he's like, we're just knocking them up. They're

1280
01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:16.880
<v Speaker 4>they're they're racking up and knocking them down. They're just

1281
01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:19.360
<v Speaker 4>buying bang bang. These guys are coming out of the

1282
01:07:19.519 --> 01:07:22.159
<v Speaker 4>out of the out of the BTRs and then they

1283
01:07:22.280 --> 01:07:25.320
<v Speaker 4>and they take them out pretty quickly. And then sid

1284
01:07:25.320 --> 01:07:28.000
<v Speaker 4>Farar gets hit and they that that squad has to

1285
01:07:28.039 --> 01:07:30.519
<v Speaker 4>pull him back, and they're they're under fire for for

1286
01:07:30.559 --> 01:07:31.920
<v Speaker 4>a pretty good amount and they actually have to call

1287
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:34.559
<v Speaker 4>in some air strikes and the only thing available are

1288
01:07:35.679 --> 01:07:38.559
<v Speaker 4>a six IS and they're firing rock eyes. They're dropping

1289
01:07:38.639 --> 01:07:41.440
<v Speaker 4>rock eyes cluster bomb munitions, which are not really the

1290
01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:44.119
<v Speaker 4>optimal type of munition to be dropping here. But really

1291
01:07:44.119 --> 01:07:45.719
<v Speaker 4>what they need to do is break contact. So it

1292
01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:49.159
<v Speaker 4>allows them to break contact and maintain their overwatch position.

1293
01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:52.760
<v Speaker 4>So but that that's that's emblematic of all these small

1294
01:07:52.760 --> 01:07:56.840
<v Speaker 4>little fights up in the hills above the airfield that

1295
01:07:56.840 --> 01:07:59.480
<v Speaker 4>that take place. But it's all interconnected, all those actions.

1296
01:07:59.519 --> 01:08:03.599
<v Speaker 4>The cheap the BTR sixties, the small hill fight there.

1297
01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:05.960
<v Speaker 4>They're all interconnected that that action.

1298
01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:10.400
<v Speaker 2>And so there's one more one more big mission, that

1299
01:08:10.639 --> 01:08:14.880
<v Speaker 2>Calvigny mission. But in the meantime, I also have to

1300
01:08:14.920 --> 01:08:19.079
<v Speaker 2>mention eighty second is coming in. Marines are coming in Jaysck,

1301
01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:23.239
<v Speaker 2>the prima donnas that they are. We're going home. It's

1302
01:08:23.239 --> 01:08:26.279
<v Speaker 2>been forty eight hours. If that time for us to go,

1303
01:08:26.439 --> 01:08:27.279
<v Speaker 2>that's enough for us.

1304
01:08:27.920 --> 01:08:30.800
<v Speaker 4>Well, once they were once the once they were shot

1305
01:08:30.840 --> 01:08:34.199
<v Speaker 4>off of of of Richmond Hill Prison, and then the

1306
01:08:34.239 --> 01:08:37.279
<v Speaker 4>seal teams were pulled out of the radio transmission where

1307
01:08:37.640 --> 01:08:41.079
<v Speaker 4>they they eeed out to see uh. After the radio

1308
01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:46.640
<v Speaker 4>transmission station mission, there really wasn't much left for them

1309
01:08:46.640 --> 01:08:50.720
<v Speaker 4>to do. But this is again, this is in the

1310
01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:54.039
<v Speaker 4>embryonic stages of Jaysck. They're really their command and control

1311
01:08:54.800 --> 01:08:59.119
<v Speaker 4>of the ranger battalions is a little tenuous. They belong

1312
01:08:59.199 --> 01:09:03.560
<v Speaker 4>to Jaysck. But Jaysak was like, Okay, the eighty second

1313
01:09:03.560 --> 01:09:07.199
<v Speaker 4>Airborne commanders kind of wishy wash and he might need

1314
01:09:07.239 --> 01:09:10.199
<v Speaker 4>some more forces. We'll get them back loaded. But maybe

1315
01:09:10.239 --> 01:09:12.720
<v Speaker 4>if they're there is like a quick action, quick reaction

1316
01:09:12.840 --> 01:09:17.000
<v Speaker 4>force on the airfield. But with all of the battalions

1317
01:09:17.039 --> 01:09:19.039
<v Speaker 4>that are flowing in from the eighty second. They're used

1318
01:09:19.039 --> 01:09:22.359
<v Speaker 4>to expand the airhead, but they're not moving out as

1319
01:09:22.399 --> 01:09:24.920
<v Speaker 4>fast as, oh, say, a lot of people in the

1320
01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:27.920
<v Speaker 4>government and the military hierarchy would want.

1321
01:09:28.720 --> 01:09:28.840
<v Speaker 1>So.

1322
01:09:29.439 --> 01:09:33.319
<v Speaker 4>General Trobaugh, who's the commanding generally eighty second, basically asks

1323
01:09:33.399 --> 01:09:39.640
<v Speaker 4>for ranger support for the Calvini mission. He basically tells him, look,

1324
01:09:39.680 --> 01:09:42.039
<v Speaker 4>I'll give you all the artillery you can handle. I'll

1325
01:09:42.079 --> 01:09:45.439
<v Speaker 4>give you the some aviation assets. Well, you know, we'll

1326
01:09:45.439 --> 01:09:47.399
<v Speaker 4>take care of all that stuff. And even then Colonel

1327
01:09:47.399 --> 01:09:52.920
<v Speaker 4>Hagler is like, he's not the idea of flying into

1328
01:09:53.720 --> 01:09:56.119
<v Speaker 4>a place where they don't have a lot of intelligence about.

1329
01:09:56.520 --> 01:09:58.439
<v Speaker 4>I mean, the rumors were flying around. It was anywhere

1330
01:09:58.439 --> 01:10:01.800
<v Speaker 4>from five hundred to twelve hundred Cuban and Grenadians on

1331
01:10:01.960 --> 01:10:03.399
<v Speaker 4>site and air.

1332
01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:07.680
<v Speaker 2>It was a weird, unexpected mission to write. I think

1333
01:10:07.680 --> 01:10:10.359
<v Speaker 2>you write about how the Rangers were like turning in

1334
01:10:10.399 --> 01:10:13.039
<v Speaker 2>their ammunition and like getting ready to roll out.

1335
01:10:13.079 --> 01:10:15.199
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And this is where Doctor ho really explained it

1336
01:10:15.239 --> 01:10:17.560
<v Speaker 4>to me. He goes, this is where the real I

1337
01:10:18.119 --> 01:10:21.600
<v Speaker 4>we're not restricted on language usage. Doc said, this is

1338
01:10:21.640 --> 01:10:24.439
<v Speaker 4>the big mind fuck right here. We're on the airfield,

1339
01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:26.640
<v Speaker 4>we're turning in our AMMO, we're expecting to be bored.

1340
01:10:26.640 --> 01:10:29.319
<v Speaker 4>And you know, we've done our missions right, We've jumped in,

1341
01:10:29.399 --> 01:10:32.840
<v Speaker 4>we've secured the airfield, we've rescued the students, we've we've

1342
01:10:32.840 --> 01:10:34.960
<v Speaker 4>done all of our missions that we're supposed to do.

1343
01:10:35.119 --> 01:10:37.079
<v Speaker 4>You know, it's it's time for us to go home.

1344
01:10:37.359 --> 01:10:41.159
<v Speaker 4>And then all of a sudden, this these these these

1345
01:10:41.640 --> 01:10:44.319
<v Speaker 4>squad leaders and platoon sergeants that show up and after

1346
01:10:44.359 --> 01:10:47.119
<v Speaker 4>getting the initial frago and they're going, we got another mission.

1347
01:10:47.119 --> 01:10:50.560
<v Speaker 4>And these guys are like, you know, Doc's a real

1348
01:10:50.600 --> 01:10:51.359
<v Speaker 4>cerebral guy.

1349
01:10:52.119 --> 01:10:53.079
<v Speaker 1>He wrote his own book.

1350
01:10:55.880 --> 01:10:58.680
<v Speaker 4>He really explains it better than I do in the book.

1351
01:10:58.720 --> 01:11:02.920
<v Speaker 4>But he talks about how your your mentality shifts. You

1352
01:11:02.920 --> 01:11:05.840
<v Speaker 4>feel like you're you know, you're running against the law

1353
01:11:05.840 --> 01:11:08.000
<v Speaker 4>of averages. At that point, you've rolled the dice a

1354
01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:11.119
<v Speaker 4>bunch of times, you've managed to work make it out

1355
01:11:11.119 --> 01:11:13.600
<v Speaker 4>of it, and and you feel like if there's one

1356
01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:15.359
<v Speaker 4>more roll of the dice, snake eyes coming up and

1357
01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:19.119
<v Speaker 4>you're done. And you know, he he felt like he

1358
01:11:19.199 --> 01:11:21.600
<v Speaker 4>had death premonitions while he was on the island a

1359
01:11:21.640 --> 01:11:25.079
<v Speaker 4>couple of times. So I mean, again, very cerebral guy.

1360
01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:30.479
<v Speaker 4>The way he explained it, but you know, he he's

1361
01:11:30.479 --> 01:11:34.239
<v Speaker 4>he's like he said, I just was. I resigned myself

1362
01:11:34.279 --> 01:11:37.039
<v Speaker 4>to the mission. I went back to this eighty second

1363
01:11:37.039 --> 01:11:39.119
<v Speaker 4>Airborne guy and got my grenades back, and he was

1364
01:11:39.159 --> 01:11:41.399
<v Speaker 4>looking at me like you're a medic, and he goes,

1365
01:11:41.439 --> 01:11:44.600
<v Speaker 4>I'm a ranger. And the guy just said he didn't

1366
01:11:44.600 --> 01:11:46.479
<v Speaker 4>get it. The eighty second guy just didn't get it, like,

1367
01:11:46.960 --> 01:11:51.520
<v Speaker 4>you know, he's CSMLG and I know a lot of

1368
01:11:51.520 --> 01:11:53.479
<v Speaker 4>people know Lean Guerrero.

1369
01:11:55.680 --> 01:11:57.399
<v Speaker 1>He he used to say.

1370
01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:01.760
<v Speaker 4>Killers and healers. I think Doc used to say. He

1371
01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:04.880
<v Speaker 4>quoted him. He said, where's my heelers and where's my killers?

1372
01:12:05.359 --> 01:12:07.880
<v Speaker 4>And then I think he said to Doc, well, you're

1373
01:12:07.920 --> 01:12:11.000
<v Speaker 4>a heeler and a killer, Doc, you know, And I

1374
01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:13.800
<v Speaker 4>don't think the under eighty second kind of understood that mentality,

1375
01:12:13.800 --> 01:12:16.520
<v Speaker 4>because a medic's a medic right in an eighty second,

1376
01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:20.520
<v Speaker 4>whereas a ranger every gun counts. Yeah, you're a combat medic, right.

1377
01:12:20.840 --> 01:12:24.880
<v Speaker 4>So Doc's like collecting up his grenades. Guys are reloading mags.

1378
01:12:24.880 --> 01:12:27.560
<v Speaker 4>They're getting clay more minds back from these guys. They're

1379
01:12:27.720 --> 01:12:30.920
<v Speaker 4>you know, getting you know, links of seven to sixty

1380
01:12:30.920 --> 01:12:33.920
<v Speaker 4>two for the sixties. They've got resigned themselves to the

1381
01:12:33.960 --> 01:12:37.199
<v Speaker 4>mission because they're going in in flights of eight, two

1382
01:12:37.199 --> 01:12:41.000
<v Speaker 4>flights of it's a it's two flights of four, and

1383
01:12:41.359 --> 01:12:44.239
<v Speaker 4>you can only fit what fifteen sixteen rangers. Maybe if

1384
01:12:44.279 --> 01:12:46.880
<v Speaker 4>you squeeze everybody in fifteen rangers on a black Hawk,

1385
01:12:47.079 --> 01:12:50.399
<v Speaker 4>and that's really tight with everybody scrunched in there and

1386
01:12:50.399 --> 01:12:52.039
<v Speaker 4>holding on to each other. I think I think that's

1387
01:12:52.039 --> 01:12:54.000
<v Speaker 4>what he told me was about fifteen per flight for

1388
01:12:54.119 --> 01:12:55.720
<v Speaker 4>per aircraft.

1389
01:12:56.279 --> 01:12:57.880
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't take a genius to do the math.

1390
01:12:58.199 --> 01:13:00.760
<v Speaker 4>Sixty in the first four and sixty in the second

1391
01:13:00.760 --> 01:13:04.680
<v Speaker 4>four against what, at the minimum five hundred was the estimate.

1392
01:13:05.119 --> 01:13:08.680
<v Speaker 4>I mean, that's death man's dead man's odds, right. And

1393
01:13:08.760 --> 01:13:11.760
<v Speaker 4>these guys they lift off, and a couple of the

1394
01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:13.760
<v Speaker 4>guys told me they had never traveled in a black

1395
01:13:13.760 --> 01:13:16.159
<v Speaker 4>Hawk as fast as they did that morning. And they

1396
01:13:16.159 --> 01:13:19.680
<v Speaker 4>were flying just at sea level until they hit the coast.

1397
01:13:20.000 --> 01:13:23.119
<v Speaker 4>They hit where the cliff line was for Calvini, and

1398
01:13:23.119 --> 01:13:26.159
<v Speaker 4>when they did, they crested. They basically popped up and

1399
01:13:26.239 --> 01:13:31.000
<v Speaker 4>popped down to hit the l Z quick. But what

1400
01:13:31.159 --> 01:13:33.199
<v Speaker 4>happened was they were coming in too hard and too fast,

1401
01:13:33.279 --> 01:13:34.399
<v Speaker 4>and a lot of those guys that didn't have a

1402
01:13:34.439 --> 01:13:37.399
<v Speaker 4>lot of hours in the black Hawk, and one of

1403
01:13:37.399 --> 01:13:39.880
<v Speaker 4>the pilots who went on there to be a one

1404
01:13:40.079 --> 01:13:44.520
<v Speaker 4>sixty sore pilot who flew in Somalia, told me, he goes, yeah,

1405
01:13:44.520 --> 01:13:47.800
<v Speaker 4>there was a there's an automatic setting with the stabilizer

1406
01:13:48.159 --> 01:13:50.039
<v Speaker 4>in the black Hawk. Then if you didn't know it

1407
01:13:50.119 --> 01:13:52.680
<v Speaker 4>was coming, it could really throw you off, and it

1408
01:13:52.720 --> 01:13:56.560
<v Speaker 4>would self adjust in those early models, at least I

1409
01:13:56.600 --> 01:13:59.439
<v Speaker 4>think I'm describing it properly. Anyway, when they popped up,

1410
01:13:59.479 --> 01:14:01.000
<v Speaker 4>they had too much air speed and they tried to

1411
01:14:01.039 --> 01:14:03.840
<v Speaker 4>dump it really hard and they came up on their

1412
01:14:03.880 --> 01:14:06.760
<v Speaker 4>tails basically when they hit the LZ and that first

1413
01:14:06.800 --> 01:14:11.920
<v Speaker 4>aircraft in I know you tagged General Thomas on one

1414
01:14:11.920 --> 01:14:13.960
<v Speaker 4>of your Twitter posts about this thing.

1415
01:14:14.359 --> 01:14:15.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1416
01:14:15.960 --> 01:14:19.640
<v Speaker 4>Actually I worked in the Pentagon when he was at

1417
01:14:19.680 --> 01:14:22.319
<v Speaker 4>the J three for Special Operations, talked with him a

1418
01:14:22.319 --> 01:14:25.439
<v Speaker 4>few times and exchanged a few notes with him back

1419
01:14:25.439 --> 01:14:29.239
<v Speaker 4>and forth over the years. But General Thomas straight up

1420
01:14:29.279 --> 01:14:31.079
<v Speaker 4>a couple of years ago said, I don't remember seeing

1421
01:14:31.079 --> 01:14:33.960
<v Speaker 4>any fire, but the guys in that first aircraft did,

1422
01:14:34.520 --> 01:14:38.079
<v Speaker 4>and one of them was w I A and the

1423
01:14:38.119 --> 01:14:40.760
<v Speaker 4>other one took a round in the flash suppressure of

1424
01:14:40.840 --> 01:14:44.279
<v Speaker 4>them sixteen, and somebody said the pilot was hit.

1425
01:14:44.800 --> 01:14:47.600
<v Speaker 1>I've never seen the pilot.

1426
01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:50.600
<v Speaker 4>The pilots of that initial craft listed on any w

1427
01:14:50.760 --> 01:14:54.000
<v Speaker 4>i A listings, so I can't say if they were

1428
01:14:54.119 --> 01:14:56.039
<v Speaker 4>they weren't. But that aircraft was the only one out

1429
01:14:56.079 --> 01:14:57.439
<v Speaker 4>of that first four to get out of the zone

1430
01:14:58.239 --> 01:15:01.159
<v Speaker 4>because the rest of them was demolition Derby. They came

1431
01:15:01.199 --> 01:15:03.239
<v Speaker 4>in too hard and too fast. They broke one of

1432
01:15:03.279 --> 01:15:06.800
<v Speaker 4>them broke their back, pirouetted on its nose. It hit

1433
01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:11.079
<v Speaker 4>Bill Sears, who was the fist guy n c O

1434
01:15:11.159 --> 01:15:14.159
<v Speaker 4>I C for a company second bat, and it basically

1435
01:15:14.279 --> 01:15:17.319
<v Speaker 4>danced on Bill's chest like three times.

1436
01:15:17.399 --> 01:15:20.439
<v Speaker 1>And those of you know Bill Sears. I was lucky

1437
01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:21.920
<v Speaker 1>enough to know Bill for a number of years and

1438
01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:22.520
<v Speaker 1>talk with him.

1439
01:15:23.279 --> 01:15:25.600
<v Speaker 4>He was a paraplegic as a result of his injuries.

1440
01:15:27.800 --> 01:15:29.920
<v Speaker 4>A lot of guys got really screwed up, and we

1441
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:34.399
<v Speaker 4>lost three damn good Rangers too, Doc Lannon and Steve

1442
01:15:34.439 --> 01:15:44.279
<v Speaker 4>Slater and Phil Grenere. And some of those aircraft hit

1443
01:15:44.439 --> 01:15:47.000
<v Speaker 4>the other aircraft, and then some of them hit There

1444
01:15:47.039 --> 01:15:49.479
<v Speaker 4>was a fence line that was adjacent to the l

1445
01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:52.520
<v Speaker 4>Z that one of them struck its rotors on and

1446
01:15:52.560 --> 01:15:56.640
<v Speaker 4>then bashed its tail. In landing, there was a ditch

1447
01:15:56.960 --> 01:16:00.520
<v Speaker 4>that had actually landed in the ditch which lowered the

1448
01:16:00.520 --> 01:16:03.159
<v Speaker 4>silhouette of the aircraft, which drove the rotors into the

1449
01:16:03.159 --> 01:16:07.000
<v Speaker 4>fence line. So all this stuff happens is this shower

1450
01:16:07.039 --> 01:16:10.439
<v Speaker 4>of rotors and you know that's squealing. If you've been

1451
01:16:10.439 --> 01:16:13.920
<v Speaker 4>in an aircraft that's had an emergency, you know what

1452
01:16:14.000 --> 01:16:16.439
<v Speaker 4>that sound is. And there's probably a bunch of people

1453
01:16:16.479 --> 01:16:18.279
<v Speaker 4>watching this of air on the back of their next

1454
01:16:18.279 --> 01:16:23.239
<v Speaker 4>stand and up when you think about that sound, that's

1455
01:16:23.279 --> 01:16:24.920
<v Speaker 4>what you could hear. And then it was clouds of

1456
01:16:25.000 --> 01:16:29.039
<v Speaker 4>dust because of the rotor strikes. And piecing that whole

1457
01:16:29.079 --> 01:16:32.319
<v Speaker 4>sequence together was really difficult because a lot of the

1458
01:16:32.359 --> 01:16:36.119
<v Speaker 4>guys only have fragments of memory from that, whether whether

1459
01:16:36.119 --> 01:16:42.199
<v Speaker 4>they're purged it from their memory consciously or subconsciously picking

1460
01:16:42.319 --> 01:16:44.880
<v Speaker 4>up they could pick up bits and pieces of it,

1461
01:16:45.720 --> 01:16:47.960
<v Speaker 4>you know, things that would flash across their field of vision.

1462
01:16:48.880 --> 01:16:52.079
<v Speaker 4>Once things settled and the dust settled, and they they

1463
01:16:52.079 --> 01:16:56.640
<v Speaker 4>did what rangers do. They assaulted through the objective and

1464
01:16:56.760 --> 01:16:58.760
<v Speaker 4>in the book you'll read about all the subsequent flights

1465
01:16:58.760 --> 01:17:02.960
<v Speaker 4>and it really the one of the hardest descriptions was

1466
01:17:03.119 --> 01:17:06.520
<v Speaker 4>Dave Cummings who's another ranger legend from second Bat who

1467
01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:09.119
<v Speaker 4>would was a ranger in one of the letter companies

1468
01:17:09.119 --> 01:17:13.199
<v Speaker 4>in Vietnam as well, and he was in the second

1469
01:17:13.199 --> 01:17:15.720
<v Speaker 4>flight of four in the lead aircraft and watched it

1470
01:17:15.720 --> 01:17:21.399
<v Speaker 4>all go down. And Dave's description of it is really heartbreaking.

1471
01:17:23.279 --> 01:17:26.279
<v Speaker 2>And as far as like the expectations of the enemy

1472
01:17:26.319 --> 01:17:28.880
<v Speaker 2>for us on that target, like it sounded if I

1473
01:17:28.920 --> 01:17:32.720
<v Speaker 2>recall correctly that the target was actually like relatively empty.

1474
01:17:33.159 --> 01:17:33.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was.

1475
01:17:33.720 --> 01:17:36.159
<v Speaker 4>It was pretty much a dry hole after those initial rounds.

1476
01:17:36.239 --> 01:17:38.279
<v Speaker 4>It was a dry hole. I mean, a couple of

1477
01:17:38.279 --> 01:17:43.079
<v Speaker 4>the guys said that there were corpses in the ground

1478
01:17:43.680 --> 01:17:47.079
<v Speaker 4>around there, but I don't think that they were there

1479
01:17:47.159 --> 01:17:52.880
<v Speaker 4>from the initial bombardment or or the ranger actions after

1480
01:17:53.000 --> 01:17:56.800
<v Speaker 4>landing at Calvini. So I don't know what the sourcing

1481
01:17:56.880 --> 01:18:01.760
<v Speaker 4>is for those those those bodies there. But once those

1482
01:18:01.800 --> 01:18:04.159
<v Speaker 4>a few initial rounds, I think it was a stay

1483
01:18:04.199 --> 01:18:06.680
<v Speaker 4>behind force, maybe fired off a bunch of rounds at

1484
01:18:06.720 --> 01:18:08.960
<v Speaker 4>the aircraft they were coming in, and then beat feet

1485
01:18:09.039 --> 01:18:11.000
<v Speaker 4>because they knew they were gonna be in a hurt

1486
01:18:11.039 --> 01:18:15.640
<v Speaker 4>locker quick if they stuck around. So to me, there

1487
01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:17.520
<v Speaker 4>was I think there was a minimal force there a

1488
01:18:17.560 --> 01:18:20.880
<v Speaker 4>handful of guys. At most they've peppered the lead aircraft

1489
01:18:20.920 --> 01:18:24.319
<v Speaker 4>and took off running, because that was the mo for

1490
01:18:24.359 --> 01:18:27.199
<v Speaker 4>a lot of the Grenadians.

1491
01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:28.119
<v Speaker 1>The UH.

1492
01:18:28.840 --> 01:18:31.800
<v Speaker 2>As far as the ranger perspective in your book, I mean,

1493
01:18:31.800 --> 01:18:35.039
<v Speaker 2>that's sort of the last combat operation that they participated

1494
01:18:35.079 --> 01:18:40.079
<v Speaker 2>in before heading home. I would like to kind of

1495
01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:45.279
<v Speaker 2>ask you like concluding thoughts. I mean, you interviewed a

1496
01:18:45.279 --> 01:18:48.800
<v Speaker 2>ton of these guys, got a lot of different perspectives.

1497
01:18:50.039 --> 01:18:52.720
<v Speaker 2>I think there's maybe a couple different ways to think

1498
01:18:52.720 --> 01:18:55.680
<v Speaker 2>about Grenada. One of it was special operations, you know,

1499
01:18:55.800 --> 01:18:59.479
<v Speaker 2>kind of getting the wind under their wings. One of

1500
01:18:59.520 --> 01:19:02.239
<v Speaker 2>it was, you know, the so called Vietnam syndrome that

1501
01:19:02.680 --> 01:19:05.479
<v Speaker 2>America was afraid to engage in military action after the

1502
01:19:05.560 --> 01:19:10.359
<v Speaker 2>Vietnam conflict and Grenada acting as sort of a test bed. No, actually,

1503
01:19:10.399 --> 01:19:13.680
<v Speaker 2>we can do operations shown again in eighty nine and Panama.

1504
01:19:14.680 --> 01:19:16.520
<v Speaker 2>I'd like to throw it to you and here you

1505
01:19:16.560 --> 01:19:20.079
<v Speaker 2>know your conclusions, your observations from all the research that

1506
01:19:20.119 --> 01:19:21.039
<v Speaker 2>you did for this book.

1507
01:19:21.720 --> 01:19:22.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1508
01:19:22.560 --> 01:19:24.760
<v Speaker 4>Well, first off, I'll start at the tactical level, and

1509
01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:28.640
<v Speaker 4>let's say ranger training works. Right, It's been proven over

1510
01:19:28.720 --> 01:19:30.279
<v Speaker 4>and over and over and again, and no matter how

1511
01:19:30.279 --> 01:19:34.199
<v Speaker 4>bad the situation is, whether pre mission or during mission

1512
01:19:34.239 --> 01:19:38.840
<v Speaker 4>or post mission, the Ranger methodology, the Ranger training model

1513
01:19:38.920 --> 01:19:47.800
<v Speaker 4>works and this validated again and they were the Ranger

1514
01:19:47.840 --> 01:19:50.760
<v Speaker 4>Force took this. And when I say the Ranger Force

1515
01:19:50.760 --> 01:19:53.960
<v Speaker 4>because later on, obviously you know in eighty four there's

1516
01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:56.239
<v Speaker 4>a third battalion and then a regimental headquarters and they

1517
01:19:56.279 --> 01:19:58.880
<v Speaker 4>really start to That was the thing with the with

1518
01:19:58.960 --> 01:20:00.600
<v Speaker 4>the battalions at the time, they were kind of their

1519
01:20:00.640 --> 01:20:04.399
<v Speaker 4>own little entities. They didn't answer to a regimental headquarters.

1520
01:20:04.479 --> 01:20:06.159
<v Speaker 4>They were basically.

1521
01:20:06.199 --> 01:20:09.439
<v Speaker 2>So calm didn't come around until what eighty seven, Yeah, So.

1522
01:20:09.439 --> 01:20:11.760
<v Speaker 4>These guys were kind of operating in their own little bubble.

1523
01:20:12.039 --> 01:20:14.600
<v Speaker 4>And while there was a lot of cross pollination in

1524
01:20:14.680 --> 01:20:18.000
<v Speaker 4>terms of TTPs at the time, I think that they

1525
01:20:18.039 --> 01:20:21.720
<v Speaker 4>still operated a little bit in their own world. But

1526
01:20:22.239 --> 01:20:26.039
<v Speaker 4>the model, the overarching model was there for both battalions

1527
01:20:26.039 --> 01:20:29.279
<v Speaker 4>and it worked. Like the training, the individual training of

1528
01:20:29.279 --> 01:20:34.000
<v Speaker 4>a Ranger, the Ranger squad, the Ranger sections, the Ranger platoons, company,

1529
01:20:34.079 --> 01:20:35.479
<v Speaker 4>battalion level, etc.

1530
01:20:35.880 --> 01:20:38.000
<v Speaker 1>It worked. It needed refinement, it.

1531
01:20:37.920 --> 01:20:40.800
<v Speaker 4>Wasn't perfect, but when push comes to shove and the

1532
01:20:40.800 --> 01:20:45.439
<v Speaker 4>bullets started flying, the Ranger model worked again and it

1533
01:20:45.520 --> 01:20:47.560
<v Speaker 4>has ever since, and I think they were able to

1534
01:20:47.560 --> 01:20:51.199
<v Speaker 4>build on that. And like you said, without Desert One,

1535
01:20:51.239 --> 01:20:54.319
<v Speaker 4>without Grenada, we don't have the success in eighty nine

1536
01:20:54.359 --> 01:21:00.720
<v Speaker 4>and Panama that integrated command structure and the battalions a

1537
01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:03.720
<v Speaker 4>ranger regiment proved it again in Panama, and they proved

1538
01:21:03.720 --> 01:21:06.800
<v Speaker 4>it again ever since that that that ranger model works.

1539
01:21:06.800 --> 01:21:09.640
<v Speaker 4>But I think again we had to go through the

1540
01:21:09.640 --> 01:21:11.399
<v Speaker 4>stand up of the battalions and then go through to

1541
01:21:11.479 --> 01:21:15.560
<v Speaker 4>Grenada to show the evolution of the force, right, and

1542
01:21:15.600 --> 01:21:19.119
<v Speaker 4>the force continues to evolve at this point, but I

1543
01:21:19.119 --> 01:21:23.159
<v Speaker 4>think that for Grenada was a vital component to showing, Hey,

1544
01:21:23.359 --> 01:21:27.479
<v Speaker 4>we moved away from light infantry, we moved away from

1545
01:21:27.479 --> 01:21:31.880
<v Speaker 4>the Vietnam recon, we moved into the special operations world.

1546
01:21:32.279 --> 01:21:35.279
<v Speaker 4>We now do raids, we now do airfield seizures, we

1547
01:21:35.399 --> 01:21:38.279
<v Speaker 4>do you know, And then you have Somalia where they're

1548
01:21:38.319 --> 01:21:43.640
<v Speaker 4>doing direct support for smooth this. Without Grenada, we don't

1549
01:21:43.680 --> 01:21:46.279
<v Speaker 4>get there, or at least we don't get there as fast,

1550
01:21:46.840 --> 01:21:51.720
<v Speaker 4>and we also don't get Jaysacken later on SOCOM exercising

1551
01:21:51.800 --> 01:21:56.000
<v Speaker 4>better command and control of their organization and not leaving

1552
01:21:56.359 --> 01:21:59.560
<v Speaker 4>a ranger battalion at the hands of a conventional commander

1553
01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:03.000
<v Speaker 4>who doesn't know how to use them properly. But I

1554
01:22:03.199 --> 01:22:05.720
<v Speaker 4>would I would I would point to at the back

1555
01:22:05.760 --> 01:22:08.199
<v Speaker 4>of the book there is a lessons learned portion of it.

1556
01:22:09.640 --> 01:22:12.319
<v Speaker 4>A guy who started out as a ranger, Private Mike

1557
01:22:12.359 --> 01:22:14.840
<v Speaker 4>Frank was in second Battalion. He was a B company,

1558
01:22:16.359 --> 01:22:17.920
<v Speaker 4>and then rose through the ranks and then made the

1559
01:22:17.960 --> 01:22:20.319
<v Speaker 4>jump as an officer in eighty nine. So he saw

1560
01:22:20.359 --> 01:22:22.720
<v Speaker 4>the evolution and he brought out a lot of those

1561
01:22:22.760 --> 01:22:24.920
<v Speaker 4>points and he's like, he's like, are you going to

1562
01:22:24.960 --> 01:22:26.880
<v Speaker 4>do it after act? You know, like a lessons learned thing,

1563
01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:29.600
<v Speaker 4>And I was like, I kind of thought the book

1564
01:22:29.640 --> 01:22:31.520
<v Speaker 4>itself was a lessons learned when you think about it,

1565
01:22:31.520 --> 01:22:33.359
<v Speaker 4>and he goes, yeah, but we could pull those out

1566
01:22:33.399 --> 01:22:36.439
<v Speaker 4>and really make them precise and really make them succinct.

1567
01:22:36.479 --> 01:22:39.760
<v Speaker 4>So I would say Mike's did a really good job

1568
01:22:39.760 --> 01:22:41.760
<v Speaker 4>of pulling those things together, and I'm indebted to him

1569
01:22:41.760 --> 01:22:44.960
<v Speaker 4>for putting those in there. And he later went onto

1570
01:22:44.960 --> 01:22:46.920
<v Speaker 4>Special Forces as well, so he brought a lot of

1571
01:22:48.199 --> 01:22:50.600
<v Speaker 4>institutional knowledge all the way from private to when he

1572
01:22:50.680 --> 01:22:54.039
<v Speaker 4>retired as a full wird colonel. So I would recommend

1573
01:22:54.319 --> 01:22:56.279
<v Speaker 4>folks going back and looking at that. But we again,

1574
01:22:56.359 --> 01:22:59.159
<v Speaker 4>without Grenada, we don't get to where we are as fast,

1575
01:22:59.319 --> 01:23:01.800
<v Speaker 4>and who knows what kind of mistakes we make in

1576
01:23:01.880 --> 01:23:04.439
<v Speaker 4>the run up and the execution of just causing eighty

1577
01:23:04.520 --> 01:23:08.199
<v Speaker 4>nine without the Grenada mission. But yes, it also proves

1578
01:23:08.199 --> 01:23:10.199
<v Speaker 4>to the world we're not gun shy about putting our

1579
01:23:10.199 --> 01:23:15.039
<v Speaker 4>folks in the field and and rescuing student rescuing Americans,

1580
01:23:16.680 --> 01:23:19.880
<v Speaker 4>and fighting communism in our own hemisphere, although they tried

1581
01:23:19.880 --> 01:23:21.560
<v Speaker 4>to downplay that a bit at the time.

1582
01:23:22.239 --> 01:23:25.720
<v Speaker 1>So to me, it's all those things.

1583
01:23:25.720 --> 01:23:27.960
<v Speaker 4>But to me, it's, uh, you know, basically, it's a

1584
01:23:28.000 --> 01:23:31.479
<v Speaker 4>tribute to to the guys who executed the mission, and

1585
01:23:31.479 --> 01:23:35.239
<v Speaker 4>and to Tom and his family, and uh, you know,

1586
01:23:35.840 --> 01:23:38.079
<v Speaker 4>I feel really good that it got out and it's

1587
01:23:38.119 --> 01:23:41.720
<v Speaker 4>been been well received by the Rangers, so that I'm

1588
01:23:41.760 --> 01:23:43.520
<v Speaker 4>happy if other people like it. But to me, they're

1589
01:23:43.560 --> 01:23:45.319
<v Speaker 4>the they're the litmus test when it comes to the

1590
01:23:45.760 --> 01:23:46.880
<v Speaker 4>audience I'm shooting for.

1591
01:23:47.319 --> 01:23:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that's the hardest audience to convince, right. You

1592
01:23:49.960 --> 01:23:51.359
<v Speaker 2>can't get anything by them.

1593
01:23:51.560 --> 01:23:52.680
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, if they would have come up to me and

1594
01:23:52.680 --> 01:23:54.079
<v Speaker 4>told me I was shit, I would have been upset.

1595
01:23:54.119 --> 01:23:57.079
<v Speaker 4>But you know, you do the best you can with it.

1596
01:23:57.680 --> 01:24:01.039
<v Speaker 4>A couple of them told me, not bad for a marine.

1597
01:24:01.319 --> 01:24:04.439
<v Speaker 2>So the book is Cry Havoc, The Untold Story of

1598
01:24:04.520 --> 01:24:08.359
<v Speaker 2>Rangers that were by Tom Greer and Joe Muccia. You

1599
01:24:08.399 --> 01:24:11.720
<v Speaker 2>guys can find it now Joe's website. There'll be a

1600
01:24:11.760 --> 01:24:13.680
<v Speaker 2>link down the description. You can go and get an

1601
01:24:13.720 --> 01:24:17.920
<v Speaker 2>autographed copy directly from him. It's a preferred method. You

1602
01:24:18.000 --> 01:24:20.199
<v Speaker 2>said that the next book is called Old Scrolls.

1603
01:24:20.640 --> 01:24:22.800
<v Speaker 4>Old Scrolls, that's the working title, but I think I

1604
01:24:22.920 --> 01:24:24.840
<v Speaker 4>like it a lot. It's going to be called Old Scrolls,

1605
01:24:24.880 --> 01:24:25.880
<v Speaker 4>A Decade of Change.

1606
01:24:26.079 --> 01:24:26.520
<v Speaker 1>I like it.

1607
01:24:26.520 --> 01:24:30.279
<v Speaker 4>It goes from basically the formation of the Ranger Battalion's

1608
01:24:30.720 --> 01:24:34.840
<v Speaker 4>seventy four to seventy five time frame up until early

1609
01:24:34.920 --> 01:24:38.039
<v Speaker 4>eighty four, but before the formation of the Regiment and

1610
01:24:38.079 --> 01:24:41.640
<v Speaker 4>the third Battalion, So it's going to cover a lot

1611
01:24:41.720 --> 01:24:45.800
<v Speaker 4>of those missions that the lessons learned from those those

1612
01:24:45.960 --> 01:24:49.800
<v Speaker 4>training exercises in those years of growth that lead up

1613
01:24:49.840 --> 01:24:51.359
<v Speaker 4>to Cry Havoc essentially.

1614
01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:56.319
<v Speaker 2>Joe, thank you so much for writing this book, for

1615
01:24:56.800 --> 01:25:02.119
<v Speaker 2>finishing Tom's work as well, and telling the Rangers story.

1616
01:25:02.319 --> 01:25:04.760
<v Speaker 2>So many things I didn't know that I learned from

1617
01:25:04.800 --> 01:25:07.279
<v Speaker 2>reading this book. I really hope that other people will

1618
01:25:07.319 --> 01:25:07.560
<v Speaker 2>go and.

1619
01:25:07.479 --> 01:25:10.479
<v Speaker 1>Pick it up. Thanks, I appreciate it.

1620
01:25:10.640 --> 01:25:14.439
<v Speaker 2>We got one question for you from m Corbin.

1621
01:25:14.680 --> 01:25:17.760
<v Speaker 5>What do you think General Crighton Abrams would have to

1622
01:25:17.800 --> 01:25:21.359
<v Speaker 5>say about the regiment's evolution of capabilities during the gwatt

1623
01:25:21.840 --> 01:25:25.239
<v Speaker 5>have they become the finest direct action force in the world.

1624
01:25:27.119 --> 01:25:29.720
<v Speaker 4>I think Abrams probably would have been pleased to see

1625
01:25:29.760 --> 01:25:33.319
<v Speaker 4>where they evolved into. Obviously, he came from a place

1626
01:25:33.520 --> 01:25:36.600
<v Speaker 4>in Vietnam where he was not trust full of special forces,

1627
01:25:37.000 --> 01:25:39.960
<v Speaker 4>and the reason he wanted the Ranger battalions formed was

1628
01:25:40.039 --> 01:25:43.000
<v Speaker 4>because in his mind, if he lived long enough, he

1629
01:25:43.079 --> 01:25:46.039
<v Speaker 4>was going to disband special Forces and the Rangers would

1630
01:25:46.079 --> 01:25:49.399
<v Speaker 4>be the piece would be that special operations force that

1631
01:25:49.439 --> 01:25:52.960
<v Speaker 4>would would take the missions. I mean, so to me,

1632
01:25:53.119 --> 01:25:55.199
<v Speaker 4>I think he'd be pleased to see where they've evolved to.

1633
01:25:56.800 --> 01:25:58.920
<v Speaker 4>He wanted them to be the finest light infantry force

1634
01:25:58.960 --> 01:26:00.680
<v Speaker 4>in the world, and I think they've got a few

1635
01:26:00.680 --> 01:26:01.760
<v Speaker 4>peers out there.

1636
01:26:04.399 --> 01:26:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Joe, before we take off, any final thoughts or anything

1637
01:26:06.880 --> 01:26:08.640
<v Speaker 2>else that you want to plug before we get going

1638
01:26:08.720 --> 01:26:09.199
<v Speaker 2>here tonight.

1639
01:26:09.800 --> 01:26:13.279
<v Speaker 4>No, No, I appreciate everybody coming on and watching. I'm

1640
01:26:13.319 --> 01:26:14.960
<v Speaker 4>hoping there's a few of the guys that were in

1641
01:26:16.000 --> 01:26:21.119
<v Speaker 4>this book listening and watching. So if you are, hey guys,

1642
01:26:21.159 --> 01:26:24.760
<v Speaker 4>good to glad to promote you guys. I know you

1643
01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:27.880
<v Speaker 4>don't like it. You're a very insular community. Don't like

1644
01:26:27.920 --> 01:26:30.800
<v Speaker 4>people speak in your names. But it's okay. There's a

1645
01:26:30.800 --> 01:26:34.600
<v Speaker 4>lot of love for you guys these days. Absolutely, but

1646
01:26:34.640 --> 01:26:36.399
<v Speaker 4>thanks for having me on. I appreciate you guys.

1647
01:26:36.880 --> 01:26:39.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, man, stay in touch. Let me know when the

1648
01:26:39.079 --> 01:26:41.239
<v Speaker 2>next book comes out. We'll have you back on again

1649
01:26:41.279 --> 01:26:44.800
<v Speaker 2>to talk about that. And we will be back on

1650
01:26:44.880 --> 01:26:49.359
<v Speaker 2>Monday with FBI retired FBI agent who served in a

1651
01:26:49.479 --> 01:26:52.600
<v Speaker 2>counterintelligence role, so it should be fun to talk to

1652
01:26:52.680 --> 01:26:57.119
<v Speaker 2>him Joe again. Thank you, and we will see all

1653
01:26:57.159 --> 01:26:58.159
<v Speaker 2>of you guys on Monday.

1654
01:26:59.680 --> 01:27:00.199
<v Speaker 1>Thanks. Yes,