WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:02.359 Hi. 2 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:05.799 My name is Daniel from the Netherlands and I play 3 00:00:05.799 --> 00:00:08.960 it over some golf club. Welcome to Gulf Smarter. 4 00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:13.160 My name is Bob Fairchild and I'm from sanen Samo, California. 5 00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:17.760 My favorite golf course is Royal County down in Northern Ireland. 6 00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:21.480 This is Golf Smarter number Oney ten. 7 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:24.039 We're just trying to gather data on uneven lives and 8 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:26.960 I'm very guilty of this. I always thought that if 9 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:29.160 the ball is above your feet, the person is going 10 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:31.000 to hit it to the low side. Uphill lie is 11 00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:33.000 going to hit it higher and shorter, and a downhill 12 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:35.079 lie is going to hit it lower. Well, you just 13 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:37.600 give people a chance to hit these shots. We don't 14 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:39.960 really necessarily see it. The results aren't as simple as 15 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:42.200 we think. Of the people we had today, probably twenty 16 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:44.359 five percent of them hit it higher on an uphill 17 00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:46.439 lie than they do off the level line. So they're 18 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:49.039 on an uphill lie counter to it it but depends 19 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:51.719 on their swing. And we had some people and we've 20 00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:53.719 seen this so far and gathering the stata that if 21 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:55.759 the ball is below their feet, they actually hit it 22 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:58.799 straighter and their clipheads feet increases. But what are they 23 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:00.600 thinking they're thinking that it's going to go to the 24 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:02.679 right because that's what people like me have told them. 25 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:04.640 And then they hit five shots and they're all going 26 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:07.480 dead straight, but they're aiming left, so they're thinking they're 27 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:10.159 doing something wrong in their technique. But maybe depending on 28 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:11.920 your golf spring, the ball below your feet, you'll hit 29 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:13.519 it pretty straight so you don't have name left. 30 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:24.319 Instinct putting the revolutionary science based method at looking where 31 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:26.480 you put with Eric Albinfels. 32 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:31.719 This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from 33 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:34.719 great golf minds to help you lower your score and 34 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:36.280 raise your golf IQ. 35 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:40.680 Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf 36 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:41.640 Smarter podcast. 37 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.359 Eric, thank you that nice to be here. 38 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:47.159 It's great to have you back again. I just for 39 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:50.120 reference points, I want to say that you were on 40 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:53.640 episodes forty seven and forty eight. We did two weeks 41 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:58.640 in a row talking about Pinehurst in November of two 42 00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:03.760 thousand and six. Then you came back after Instinct Putting 43 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:06.079 came out the book Instinct Putting, which we're going to 44 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:10.039 talk a lot about today. That was episode one thirty 45 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:14.280 eight in August of two thousand and eight. August fifth 46 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:17.080 we're doing in August fifth episode this week this year too, 47 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:20.680 and then you were on in twenty sixteen episode five 48 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:25.719 hundred and forty more talk about instinct putting and as 49 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:30.680 I progress in my journey of golf, and I keep 50 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:34.520 going back to that book and now it really is 51 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:38.840 starting to make sense to me instinct putting. But let's 52 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:43.639 start talking first about your latest book, called Evidence Based Golf. 53 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:52.520 It's it's not storytelling. It's a science based book, right, 54 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:57.120 and it's it's it's I don't know if dry is 55 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:01.319 the right word, but it's science. And so you have 56 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:03.280 to be able to you have to be prepared to 57 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:05.639 when you get into the book that that's where you're going. 58 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:09.759 Don't expect cute stories about somebody hitting a golf ball. 59 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:12.000 No, it's pretty straightforward you it's a lot of it's 60 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:13.439 a summary of our research, for sure. 61 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:17.240 Yeah, so let's talk about that and your research. You 62 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:23.080 had a partner on both of these books. What was 63 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:27.120 the what prompted you to say we need to talk 64 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:28.400 about the evidence. 65 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:31.840 Well, that's a good question, I think for us. The 66 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:35.240 you know, Bob Christina, who's my research partner. We started 67 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:40.280 probably in nineteen ninety I actually reached out to him 68 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:43.439 via a friend of ours, a mutual friend, girl named 69 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:46.800 Carol Man, and I was looking for insight into how 70 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:50.039 to do a research study for the World Scientific Congress 71 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:53.960 of Golf which was held in Saint Andrew's University, and 72 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:56.759 I wanted to do a summary of our golf school 73 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:00.879 students and just needed his advice on how to present 74 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.400 that and how to gather the data and do a summary. 75 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:07.680 So anyway, we started this conversation and we started doing 76 00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:11.520 research together with the thought of let's make it evidence based. 77 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:14.759 It's not anecdotal. Let's make sure it's research that can 78 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:16.959 stand up where we can stand up in front of 79 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:21.079 an academic environment and people will appreciate the steps we 80 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:24.040 went through, the protocols we follow, and that's really when 81 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:26.279 we started doing all this stuff. And the book was 82 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:30.319 just a natural transition where we thought we need to 83 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:33.079 we need to publish this and summarize some of our 84 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:37.639 at least to us the more important studies. 85 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:43.079 Why did you need to be a scholastic, you said, 86 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:46.199 you know, for scholastic presentation. 87 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:48.920 Well, just more academic. You know, if you go to 88 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:53.399 a World Congress of Golf where it's where you would 89 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:57.319 bring together researchers in different environments where they look at 90 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:01.800 human performance, maybe the biomechanics of a golf swing. They 91 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:06.720 do presentations on agronomy, equipment, things like that. So it's 92 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:09.759 the idea is that I didn't want to stand up 93 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:12.600 in front of an audience of researchers and not be 94 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:14.800 able to present the material the right way and not 95 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:17.000 have done the research the right way. So I guess 96 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:20.160 when I'm saying that more, it's certainly a more academic 97 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:24.720 environment where you're talking and presenting in front of researchers 98 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:28.079 who do research on human performance and other sports and 99 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:29.759 they so it's kind of a gathering of that type 100 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.959 of a group. That's hell pretty much every four years 101 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:34.319 at St. Andrews. It's off and on. 102 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:39.439 Yeah, and what we haven't established is what you do. 103 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.879 Let's say, let's put this in perspective here. 104 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:48.360 Well, my title here, I guess I have to kind 105 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:50.240 of think of what I do. I do a little 106 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:52.680 bit of different stuff, but I'm the director of instruction 107 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:56.040 as well as the Golf Academy at Pinehurst and I've 108 00:05:56.040 --> 00:06:00.399 been here about forty years and so my my major 109 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.519 job is to teach in golf schools and run the 110 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:05.199 golf schools here at the facility. I do some individual 111 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:07.800 lessons as well, but not nearly as much individual lessons 112 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:12.439 as golf schools. And the flexibility I have is to 113 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:14.399 do things like the research, and that's part of my 114 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:16.800 job as well, is to do research projects that could 115 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:20.160 propel our information. We're giving our students a little bit 116 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:25.079 more forward and maybe try to be less anecdotal instructors 117 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:28.199 and more instructors that are based on research. And again 118 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:30.399 back to the evidence based instruction. 119 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.959 And you're a PGA Master professional correct, Yeah, okay, so 120 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:38.000 that means you instruct instructors. 121 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:43.120 Yeah, fair amount, yeah, fair amount, not a ton with 122 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:45.360 our schedules here, I do a fair amount for the 123 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:49.839 PGA have rather have done a fair amount over the 124 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.839 years as an adjunct faculty member. But you know, I 125 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:56.000 certainly trained the folks I work with here and then 126 00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:00.360 the professional staff here. But yeah, I do lit that 127 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:01.079 as well. Yeah. 128 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:03.480 Yeah, So that's why you would need to get in 129 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:09.519 front of a large group to present the science based 130 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:14.759 Yeah okay, all right, now you talk about empirical versus 131 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:19.120 non empirical evidence in the book, Why don't you explain those. 132 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:26.839 Well, I guess from my perspective, the terms are just 133 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:31.879 that you're trying to draw data that you're trying to 134 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:34.399 You're trying to utilize research and such that will make 135 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:37.959 the data hold that would that would hold up under scrutiny. 136 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:39.600 I guess is in my mind how we think of it. 137 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:43.079 At least I think of it. A fair amount of 138 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:47.680 instruction to me seems to be anecdotal, you know where, 139 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:50.040 and it's it's not it's not a criticism of teachers, 140 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:53.000 but I think as teachers, you naturally rely on what 141 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.800 works for you and the the sometimes the thought is 142 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:59.319 it's going to work for everybody. And so I think 143 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:04.480 our goal with the research we've done is trying to 144 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.839 cut through some of the some of the stuff that 145 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:12.839 happens that is successful for one teacher and not necessarily 146 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:15.360 applicable to other students. And I guess I'm thinking in 147 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:19.120 terms of let's say, I'm thinking of like a full 148 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:22.959 swing swing queue. Let's say somebody swings out to end 149 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:26.360 in a down swing, which is a pretty common error. Well, 150 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:29.160 one form of a swing queue would be to swing, 151 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:31.959 you know, kind of do some sort of internal queue 152 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:34.240 where you drop your right arm into your side or 153 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:36.039 try to have your right oble touch your side in 154 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:38.159 the down swing to change the path of the club. 155 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:41.519 And then another strategy could be to think more in 156 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.200 terms of the club hit. So those two types of 157 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:50.200 approaches are very good cues. I mean, they certainly work. 158 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:52.200 I mean you've certainly heard to you know, drop your 159 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:54.039 right oble in your side to swing out to the right, 160 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:56.320 you know, so I think we all have heard that. 161 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:00.919 But there are two distinctly different approaches. One is external 162 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:03.840 QUE where you're thinking about the club head, and the 163 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.200 internal Q is where you're thinking about the body. And 164 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:11.200 so there are two different strategies. And the side of 165 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:13.080 stuff that we like to do is we like to 166 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:15.159 pit those two against each other to see which ones 167 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:18.080 could be more effective in the down swing or making 168 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:20.200 the swing change. So the idea is that you have 169 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:23.679 research that would support one way could be better than 170 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.639 another way, or at least giving people the option to 171 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:28.559 know there's two ways to work on a downswings. So 172 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.200 kind of a long story, but that's kind of what 173 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:33.639 we enjoy doing. It's helpful for our teaching too, and 174 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:40.399 we're looking at a student that's swinging out in it's 175 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:42.919 nice to have two different approaches to fixing it versus 176 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:45.399 always relying on the one. And that's kind of where 177 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:49.000 we feel like we're helping our students have a different 178 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:52.000 way to approach the same thing. Hopefully that makes sense. 179 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:55.679 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And and I don't worry about long answers. 180 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:57.759 We like long answers here, take your. 181 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:00.000 Time that you get everything a little bit. 182 00:09:59.879 --> 00:10:02.559 But okay, no, no, no, not at all, not at all. 183 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:07.799 But I'm curious now, this is directed for this information, 184 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:14.240 this content, this science is based and directed at golf instructors, 185 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:15.519 not the average golfer. 186 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:20.960 Correct, well, what is Yeah, we're our goal with the research. 187 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:22.480 I mean, this is kind of back to the days 188 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:25.759 that Bob, Christina and I really set out to do 189 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:29.279 this research together. Our thought was that if we could 190 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:32.120 do research that would be beneficial to the students at Pinehurst. 191 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:35.279 So we could take two different swing ques and test 192 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:38.399 one or maybe a training aid. We could test a 193 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:40.600 training aid and see which one's more efficient, and that 194 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:44.039 could be beneficial to our students. But we also wanted 195 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:46.480 to do research that could be helpful for a golf 196 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:49.279 instructor to maybe see it in a different way and 197 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:51.120 maybe be able to think about it in a different 198 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:54.440 way and that could be beneficial to the instructor, which 199 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:57.919 would then be beneficial to the students. So beneficial to 200 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:00.799 our students, beneficial to the instructors out there, and then 201 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:03.799 also to something that we could present that could be 202 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:06.039 permeated out to the world of golf, like via a 203 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:09.399 golf magazine. So back in two thousand, I guess it 204 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:12.440 was we did. We've started really doing a series of 205 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:16.799 articles for Golf magazine and that have continued where we 206 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:19.840 just you know, again, back in that day, we worked 207 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.360 with Lauren Anderson and we might just do two or 208 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:27.039 three studies on the best way to practice lag putting. Actually, 209 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:30.080 that's where the Instinct Putting book came from because we 210 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.200 did a study for Lauren Anderson and we had people 211 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:35.679 practice looking at the hole while they were working on 212 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:38.480 their distance control, and that kind of shifted into that 213 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:39.799 that's that type of study. 214 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:50.039 So with Evidence Based Golf the book. Again, would you 215 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:54.960 if one of your students, you know, a new golfer 216 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:01.279 versus a very serious golfer, but came to you and said, oh, 217 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:04.159 I saw that you have this book Evidence Based Golf. 218 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.360 You know, I'm just learning to play. Is this something 219 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:10.919 I should be reading or should I just listen to 220 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:13.519 my teacher and not get myself caught up in this. 221 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:15.559 You know, I'm new to the game. I play a 222 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:16.840 couple of times a year, and. 223 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:21.279 Sure, well, I think that's that's interesting. I think for 224 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:25.919 some people the having that type of information is important, 225 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:33.320 and they they they have an appreciation for maybe the 226 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:35.600 simplicity of a study where we just look at how 227 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:40.399 high you should tee your driver and understanding that how 228 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.960 the study took place, the findings, the summary of the findings. 229 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:46.399 I mean, it's pretty simple. But at the same time, 230 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:49.120 maybe that person it would would kind of interest them 231 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:51.360 in that regard just that reading it, and it would 232 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:54.679 be interesting in it. I'd say probably for a beginner golfer, 233 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:57.480 it wouldn't really be something that would be a necessity 234 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:00.559 I would I would strongly suggest they read more material 235 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.240 on the ball flight laws and have a better understanding 236 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:05.440 what makes the ball do what it does. I think 237 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:08.240 one of the questions I've always gotten from folks over 238 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:10.720 the years, still, do you know if you're going to 239 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:13.440 if you're going to give somebody a book to read, 240 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:15.720 what book would you give them to read? I've always 241 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.200 told people go read the quick here's for the weekend golfer. 242 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.440 Whether you're a new teacher or you're a new golfer, 243 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:26.200 having a good sense of ball flight and the being 244 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.960 able to look at ball flight and diagnose what's going 245 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:31.279 on in your swing or the student swing is not 246 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:33.080 a bad idea. So that's a I mean, that book's 247 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.840 been around forever, probably nineteen seventy three, but it was 248 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:39.600 John Jacobs looking at ball flight, how you know, what 249 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.559 makes the ball do what it's doing. The new material 250 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:44.519 out there that's even more in depth because the track 251 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:46.159 man and some of the technology we have, I mean, 252 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:49.759 it's even better. So having a good sense of ball 253 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:51.440 flight and what makes the ball do what it is 254 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:53.720 do what it does rather, I would be suggesting to 255 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:56.960 any newer golfer, and I'd also suggest that to instructors too, 256 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:59.440 because there seems to be some misconceptions out there what's 257 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:00.000 really going on. 258 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.039 Yeah, I can definitely see instructors like reading this saying, ah, 259 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:07.440 got it, Okay, I understand that. But then I also 260 00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:12.200 see you know, because the audience on this show runs 261 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:16.320 the gamut from beginning. You know, new golfers too, and 262 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.679 I've had a lot of instructors say that they use 263 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:22.039 the show as research, which is really awesome. But the 264 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:25.759 beginning golfer, it's like, I'm I don't know what what 265 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:28.120 am I supposed to do with this, you know, But 266 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.039 I can see a teacher saying, absolutely it makes to 267 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:31.559 make sense. 268 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:34.440 Yeah, I think Yeah, for a beginner golfer, I'm not 269 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:36.840 too sure. I mean, I certainly have people say that 270 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:39.279 they've enjoyed it, but I think it's more there, you know, 271 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:42.320 they're not really they I guess probably I haven't met 272 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:44.200 a couple of people that were newer to the game 273 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:46.600 and read it, but I think they had probably read 274 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:48.399 any type of book like that and enjoyed just kind 275 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:50.600 of how their brain thinks and how they like that 276 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:53.960 side of things. So maybe more of it just their background. Yeah, 277 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.440 But as far as the beginner golfer, I'm not too sure. 278 00:14:57.320 --> 00:15:00.399 I mean, certainly the studies where we talk about those 279 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:03.440 two types of cues, internal and external would be interesting, 280 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.240 but I'm not even too sure a beginner could really 281 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:07.360 apply that to their own game as much as an 282 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:08.799 instructor could to their teaching. 283 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.200 Yeah, we've had a lot of scientists on and mental 284 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:18.039 coaches talking about internal versus external targets and that how 285 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:21.480 if you're focusing on your mechanics while you're hitting a ball, 286 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:23.879 or while you're making your swing, let's not even talk 287 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:25.799 about hitting a ball when you're making your swing. If 288 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:29.720 you're thinking about your mechanics, chances are it's not going 289 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:30.279 to go well. 290 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:33.039 It's really hard, yeah for sure, yea. And yet you 291 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:37.000 know what, when we're kind of looking at that and 292 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:40.000 not you mentioned earlier the rabbit hole, you can kind 293 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:41.440 of go down the rabbit hole some of the stuff. 294 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.159 But I think what's interesting from my perspective is that 295 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:47.320 if you talk to the amateur golfer, you know, we 296 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:49.519 have them fill out a questionnaire to start before they 297 00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:54.480 start the school, and it's overwhelming the amount of internal 298 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:56.519 swing cues they have. When they walk in the door. 299 00:15:57.200 --> 00:15:59.399 You ask them what they're working on, and they'll give 300 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.639 you a probably the average befour or five things they're 301 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:05.480 working on in their swing when they're hitting golf ball, 302 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:08.240 which is of course that's challenging, but they all tend 303 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:11.080 to be internal in nature. So I turned my shoulders, 304 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:14.039 I shift my weight, I drop my right over to 305 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.960 my side, whatever it is, and they don't really think 306 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.480 a lot about what the club's doing, and their awareness 307 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:22.039 of what the club's doing is really challenging for them 308 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:25.279 because they think, again, they pick up a book and 309 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:28.039 it's probably going to be geared towards internal cues. They're 310 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:31.320 going to read a blog and it's going to be 311 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:34.279 probably internal cues. They're going to hear tour players talking 312 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:36.279 about what they're working on. They're probably going to be 313 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:40.360 some internal cues, and it's challenging for them. So I 314 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:43.799 think for the student, at least, my experience has been 315 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:46.240 as if they recognize that there's two types of swing 316 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.360 queues and that they can if they just give it 317 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:52.600 a thought, they can figure out an external swing queue 318 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:55.200 where they think about the club that could replace the 319 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:57.840 internal queue, and they're going to probably be a little 320 00:16:57.840 --> 00:16:59.720 bit better off with that if they just took the 321 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.120 time do that. But they kind of default into left arm, 322 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:04.400 straight shoulder turning, whatever. 323 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:07.599 You do right, and there's a myriad of things that 324 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:10.880 they're thinking about. Oh, all the way across and you 325 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.559 were saying you started doing this research back at the 326 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:18.200 let's call it the turn of the century. It seems 327 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:22.079 like I know it's when you say that, folks our age, 328 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:24.759 we always think of going eighteen hundred to nineteen hundred, 329 00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:31.640 but that's not where we are. But the technology from 330 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:36.839 when you started to today is so radically different. How 331 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.039 has it impacted the results of your studies? And if 332 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:41.240 you had to redoce. 333 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:44.759 Some you know, I think we were always pretty lucky 334 00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:48.759 with any type of study that we were doing. We 335 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:51.440 always had outcome. It was always based on well, not 336 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:55.680 of them, but outcome is probably the majority of the studies. 337 00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:00.119 So if we didn't have the technology where we could 338 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:05.920 measure it with a track manner back in two thousand, 339 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:09.640 the Titleist launch model they had, if we couldn't utilize that, 340 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.880 we could always measure it just the old fashion way, 341 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:14.440 which would be hit a bunch of golf balls on 342 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:17.559 a flat surface and measure how far they are offline, 343 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:21.160 you know, look at the dispersion rate that way. So 344 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:23.519 it's we've always been able to do that, but the 345 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:25.920 technology makes it a lot easier, and certainly we can 346 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:31.200 get more into some of the finer, the secondary measures 347 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:33.480 that we'd be looking at. But I remember years ago 348 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.079 we did a study on the length of a driver 349 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.960 out on the first hole of number two, which is 350 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.640 at the time was relatively flat wall to wall grass 351 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:44.720 and so there wasn't any of the waste areas and 352 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.559 they mowed the area down slightly for us, and we 353 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:49.920 just had people hit drivers off the first tee and 354 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.759 they hit drivers that were one inch over standard length 355 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:55.519 standard length and one inch under standard length. And of 356 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:58.480 course everybody liked the longer shafted driver, but they were 357 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.000 more accurate with the shorter shafted driver, which was kind 358 00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:01.759 of the name of the game. 359 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:04.720 Yeah, the longer one, you're getting more distance. 360 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:06.920 Yeah, on the one out of hit a little bit further. 361 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.799 The other nine were its good and then the shorter 362 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.599 shafted driver they hit a lot straighter. And at the 363 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:14.640 end of the day the average was greater. But they 364 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:16.799 always remember that one or two drivers that went with 365 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:20.559 the longer clubs. But that's everybody knows that. But we 366 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.079 did the old fashioned way. We had a rope down 367 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:25.119 the middle of the fairway and we measured the dispersion 368 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.640 off the center line of the fairway and we did 369 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:30.880 it that way. So nowadays that'd be a lot easier 370 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:31.640 with TrackMan, how. 371 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:32.359 High tech of you. 372 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.839 Yeah, we didn't even use We didn't even we didn't 373 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:38.960 even use later range finders. We just had a we 374 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:43.000 had one of those longs yards yards or the measuring 375 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:44.960 tools that would run for fifty feet, so we just 376 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:47.960 run back and forth with that. So, yeah, we we 377 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.519 did it old school for a while, but the technology 378 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:52.039 has really changed it because we can look at so 379 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.079 many different things. You know, right now we're looking at 380 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:57.119 we're just trying to gather data on uneven lives and 381 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.960 at least and I'm I'm very guilty of this, but 382 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:04.400 I always thought that if the ball is above your feet, 383 00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:07.000 the person is going to hit it to the low side. 384 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:09.079 So the balls above my feet, it's going to go 385 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:11.559 to the low side. If the ball is below my feet, 386 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:13.000 it's going to go to the low side of the 387 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:16.079 right side. Uphill lie is going to hit it higher 388 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:17.759 and shorter, and a downhill lie is going to hit 389 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:22.039 it lower. Well, if you just give people a chance 390 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:25.039 to hit these shots, we don't really necessarily see it's 391 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:29.039 that easily defined, or the results aren't as simple as 392 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:31.920 we think. We were running some people through the uneven 393 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:34.200 lies today and we've had of the people we had today, 394 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:36.839 probably twenty five percent of them hit it higher on 395 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:38.839 an uphill lie than they do off the level lie, 396 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.920 so they're on an uphill lie. I could see that counterintuitive, 397 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:46.839 but depends on their swing. And we had some people 398 00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:48.960 and we've seen this so far and gathering the data 399 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:52.440 that if the balls below their feet, they actually hit 400 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:56.400 it straighter and their cliphead speed increases. But what are 401 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.480