1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:02,359 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,799 Speaker 2: My name is Daniel from the Netherlands and I play 3 00:00:05,799 --> 00:00:08,960 it over some golf club. Welcome to Gulf Smarter. 4 00:00:09,279 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: My name is Bob Fairchild and I'm from sanen Samo, California. 5 00:00:13,279 --> 00:00:17,760 My favorite golf course is Royal County down in Northern Ireland. 6 00:00:18,359 --> 00:00:21,480 This is Golf Smarter number Oney ten. 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,039 Speaker 2: We're just trying to gather data on uneven lives and 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,960 I'm very guilty of this. I always thought that if 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,160 the ball is above your feet, the person is going 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,000 to hit it to the low side. Uphill lie is 11 00:00:31,039 --> 00:00:33,000 going to hit it higher and shorter, and a downhill 12 00:00:33,039 --> 00:00:35,079 lie is going to hit it lower. Well, you just 13 00:00:35,119 --> 00:00:37,600 give people a chance to hit these shots. We don't 14 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,960 really necessarily see it. The results aren't as simple as 15 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,200 we think. Of the people we had today, probably twenty 16 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,359 five percent of them hit it higher on an uphill 17 00:00:44,399 --> 00:00:46,439 lie than they do off the level line. So they're 18 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,039 on an uphill lie counter to it it but depends 19 00:00:49,079 --> 00:00:51,719 on their swing. And we had some people and we've 20 00:00:51,759 --> 00:00:53,719 seen this so far and gathering the stata that if 21 00:00:53,719 --> 00:00:55,759 the ball is below their feet, they actually hit it 22 00:00:55,799 --> 00:00:58,799 straighter and their clipheads feet increases. But what are they 23 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:00,600 thinking they're thinking that it's going to go to the 24 00:01:00,679 --> 00:01:02,679 right because that's what people like me have told them. 25 00:01:02,719 --> 00:01:04,640 And then they hit five shots and they're all going 26 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,480 dead straight, but they're aiming left, so they're thinking they're 27 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:10,159 doing something wrong in their technique. But maybe depending on 28 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:11,920 your golf spring, the ball below your feet, you'll hit 29 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,519 it pretty straight so you don't have name left. 30 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 3: Instinct putting the revolutionary science based method at looking where 31 00:01:24,359 --> 00:01:26,480 you put with Eric Albinfels. 32 00:01:26,599 --> 00:01:31,719 Speaker 2: This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from 33 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,719 great golf minds to help you lower your score and 34 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:36,280 raise your golf IQ. 35 00:01:37,159 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 3: Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf 36 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:41,640 Smarter podcast. 37 00:01:41,799 --> 00:01:44,359 Speaker 2: Eric, thank you that nice to be here. 38 00:01:44,799 --> 00:01:47,159 Speaker 3: It's great to have you back again. I just for 39 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,120 reference points, I want to say that you were on 40 00:01:50,239 --> 00:01:53,640 episodes forty seven and forty eight. We did two weeks 41 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:58,640 in a row talking about Pinehurst in November of two 42 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,760 thousand and six. Then you came back after Instinct Putting 43 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,079 came out the book Instinct Putting, which we're going to 44 00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:10,039 talk a lot about today. That was episode one thirty 45 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:14,280 eight in August of two thousand and eight. August fifth 46 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,080 we're doing in August fifth episode this week this year too, 47 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,680 and then you were on in twenty sixteen episode five 48 00:02:20,759 --> 00:02:25,719 hundred and forty more talk about instinct putting and as 49 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,680 I progress in my journey of golf, and I keep 50 00:02:30,719 --> 00:02:34,520 going back to that book and now it really is 51 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:38,840 starting to make sense to me instinct putting. But let's 52 00:02:38,879 --> 00:02:43,639 start talking first about your latest book, called Evidence Based Golf. 53 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:52,520 It's it's not storytelling. It's a science based book, right, 54 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,120 and it's it's it's I don't know if dry is 55 00:02:57,159 --> 00:03:01,319 the right word, but it's science. And so you have 56 00:03:01,439 --> 00:03:03,280 to be able to you have to be prepared to 57 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,639 when you get into the book that that's where you're going. 58 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,759 Don't expect cute stories about somebody hitting a golf ball. 59 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: No, it's pretty straightforward you it's a lot of it's 60 00:03:12,039 --> 00:03:13,439 a summary of our research, for sure. 61 00:03:13,479 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, so let's talk about that and your research. You 62 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:23,080 had a partner on both of these books. What was 63 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,120 the what prompted you to say we need to talk 64 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:28,400 about the evidence. 65 00:03:29,719 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question, I think for us. The 66 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,240 you know, Bob Christina, who's my research partner. We started 67 00:03:35,439 --> 00:03:40,280 probably in nineteen ninety I actually reached out to him 68 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,439 via a friend of ours, a mutual friend, girl named 69 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:46,800 Carol Man, and I was looking for insight into how 70 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,039 to do a research study for the World Scientific Congress 71 00:03:50,039 --> 00:03:53,960 of Golf which was held in Saint Andrew's University, and 72 00:03:54,039 --> 00:03:56,759 I wanted to do a summary of our golf school 73 00:03:57,759 --> 00:04:00,879 students and just needed his advice on how to present 74 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,400 that and how to gather the data and do a summary. 75 00:04:03,439 --> 00:04:07,680 So anyway, we started this conversation and we started doing 76 00:04:07,719 --> 00:04:11,520 research together with the thought of let's make it evidence based. 77 00:04:11,599 --> 00:04:14,759 It's not anecdotal. Let's make sure it's research that can 78 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,959 stand up where we can stand up in front of 79 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:21,079 an academic environment and people will appreciate the steps we 80 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,040 went through, the protocols we follow, and that's really when 81 00:04:24,079 --> 00:04:26,279 we started doing all this stuff. And the book was 82 00:04:26,319 --> 00:04:30,319 just a natural transition where we thought we need to 83 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,079 we need to publish this and summarize some of our 84 00:04:33,959 --> 00:04:37,639 at least to us the more important studies. 85 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,079 Speaker 3: Why did you need to be a scholastic, you said, 86 00:04:43,399 --> 00:04:46,199 you know, for scholastic presentation. 87 00:04:46,399 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: Well, just more academic. You know, if you go to 88 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,399 a World Congress of Golf where it's where you would 89 00:04:53,399 --> 00:04:57,319 bring together researchers in different environments where they look at 90 00:04:57,399 --> 00:05:01,800 human performance, maybe the biomechanics of a golf swing. They 91 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,720 do presentations on agronomy, equipment, things like that. So it's 92 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,759 the idea is that I didn't want to stand up 93 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,600 in front of an audience of researchers and not be 94 00:05:12,639 --> 00:05:14,800 able to present the material the right way and not 95 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,000 have done the research the right way. So I guess 96 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,160 when I'm saying that more, it's certainly a more academic 97 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,720 environment where you're talking and presenting in front of researchers 98 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,079 who do research on human performance and other sports and 99 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,759 they so it's kind of a gathering of that type 100 00:05:29,759 --> 00:05:32,959 of a group. That's hell pretty much every four years 101 00:05:32,959 --> 00:05:34,319 at St. Andrews. It's off and on. 102 00:05:35,199 --> 00:05:39,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, and what we haven't established is what you do. 103 00:05:41,079 --> 00:05:43,879 Let's say, let's put this in perspective here. 104 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 2: Well, my title here, I guess I have to kind 105 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,240 of think of what I do. I do a little 106 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,680 bit of different stuff, but I'm the director of instruction 107 00:05:52,879 --> 00:05:56,040 as well as the Golf Academy at Pinehurst and I've 108 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,399 been here about forty years and so my my major 109 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,519 job is to teach in golf schools and run the 110 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,199 golf schools here at the facility. I do some individual 111 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,800 lessons as well, but not nearly as much individual lessons 112 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,439 as golf schools. And the flexibility I have is to 113 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,399 do things like the research, and that's part of my 114 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,800 job as well, is to do research projects that could 115 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,160 propel our information. We're giving our students a little bit 116 00:06:20,199 --> 00:06:25,079 more forward and maybe try to be less anecdotal instructors 117 00:06:25,079 --> 00:06:28,199 and more instructors that are based on research. And again 118 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,399 back to the evidence based instruction. 119 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,959 Speaker 3: And you're a PGA Master professional correct, Yeah, okay, so 120 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,000 that means you instruct instructors. 121 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, fair amount, yeah, fair amount, not a ton with 122 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,360 our schedules here, I do a fair amount for the 123 00:06:45,399 --> 00:06:49,839 PGA have rather have done a fair amount over the 124 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,839 years as an adjunct faculty member. But you know, I 125 00:06:53,959 --> 00:06:56,000 certainly trained the folks I work with here and then 126 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,360 the professional staff here. But yeah, I do lit that 127 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:01,079 as well. Yeah. 128 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's why you would need to get in 129 00:07:03,519 --> 00:07:09,519 front of a large group to present the science based 130 00:07:09,879 --> 00:07:14,759 Yeah okay, all right, now you talk about empirical versus 131 00:07:14,959 --> 00:07:19,120 non empirical evidence in the book, Why don't you explain those. 132 00:07:19,879 --> 00:07:26,839 Speaker 2: Well, I guess from my perspective, the terms are just 133 00:07:26,879 --> 00:07:31,879 that you're trying to draw data that you're trying to 134 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,399 You're trying to utilize research and such that will make 135 00:07:34,879 --> 00:07:37,959 the data hold that would that would hold up under scrutiny. 136 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,600 I guess is in my mind how we think of it. 137 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,079 At least I think of it. A fair amount of 138 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,680 instruction to me seems to be anecdotal, you know where, 139 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,040 and it's it's not it's not a criticism of teachers, 140 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,000 but I think as teachers, you naturally rely on what 141 00:07:53,079 --> 00:07:55,800 works for you and the the sometimes the thought is 142 00:07:55,839 --> 00:07:59,319 it's going to work for everybody. And so I think 143 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:04,480 our goal with the research we've done is trying to 144 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,839 cut through some of the some of the stuff that 145 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,839 happens that is successful for one teacher and not necessarily 146 00:08:12,879 --> 00:08:15,360 applicable to other students. And I guess I'm thinking in 147 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:19,120 terms of let's say, I'm thinking of like a full 148 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,959 swing swing queue. Let's say somebody swings out to end 149 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,360 in a down swing, which is a pretty common error. Well, 150 00:08:26,399 --> 00:08:29,160 one form of a swing queue would be to swing, 151 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:31,959 you know, kind of do some sort of internal queue 152 00:08:31,959 --> 00:08:34,240 where you drop your right arm into your side or 153 00:08:34,279 --> 00:08:36,039 try to have your right oble touch your side in 154 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,159 the down swing to change the path of the club. 155 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:41,519 And then another strategy could be to think more in 156 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,200 terms of the club hit. So those two types of 157 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,200 approaches are very good cues. I mean, they certainly work. 158 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,200 I mean you've certainly heard to you know, drop your 159 00:08:52,279 --> 00:08:54,039 right oble in your side to swing out to the right, 160 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,320 you know, so I think we all have heard that. 161 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,919 But there are two distinctly different approaches. One is external 162 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,840 QUE where you're thinking about the club head, and the 163 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:07,200 internal Q is where you're thinking about the body. And 164 00:09:07,279 --> 00:09:11,200 so there are two different strategies. And the side of 165 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,080 stuff that we like to do is we like to 166 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,159 pit those two against each other to see which ones 167 00:09:15,279 --> 00:09:18,080 could be more effective in the down swing or making 168 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,200 the swing change. So the idea is that you have 169 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,679 research that would support one way could be better than 170 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,639 another way, or at least giving people the option to 171 00:09:26,919 --> 00:09:28,559 know there's two ways to work on a downswings. So 172 00:09:28,879 --> 00:09:31,200 kind of a long story, but that's kind of what 173 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,639 we enjoy doing. It's helpful for our teaching too, and 174 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:40,399 we're looking at a student that's swinging out in it's 175 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,919 nice to have two different approaches to fixing it versus 176 00:09:42,919 --> 00:09:45,399 always relying on the one. And that's kind of where 177 00:09:45,399 --> 00:09:49,000 we feel like we're helping our students have a different 178 00:09:49,039 --> 00:09:52,000 way to approach the same thing. Hopefully that makes sense. 179 00:09:52,039 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And and I don't worry about long answers. 180 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,759 We like long answers here, take your. 181 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: Time that you get everything a little bit. 182 00:09:59,879 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 3: But okay, no, no, no, not at all, not at all. 183 00:10:02,799 --> 00:10:07,799 But I'm curious now, this is directed for this information, 184 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:14,240 this content, this science is based and directed at golf instructors, 185 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:15,519 not the average golfer. 186 00:10:15,639 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: Correct, well, what is Yeah, we're our goal with the research. 187 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,480 I mean, this is kind of back to the days 188 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,759 that Bob, Christina and I really set out to do 189 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,279 this research together. Our thought was that if we could 190 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,120 do research that would be beneficial to the students at Pinehurst. 191 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,279 So we could take two different swing ques and test 192 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,399 one or maybe a training aid. We could test a 193 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,600 training aid and see which one's more efficient, and that 194 00:10:40,639 --> 00:10:44,039 could be beneficial to our students. But we also wanted 195 00:10:44,039 --> 00:10:46,480 to do research that could be helpful for a golf 196 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:49,279 instructor to maybe see it in a different way and 197 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,120 maybe be able to think about it in a different 198 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,440 way and that could be beneficial to the instructor, which 199 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,919 would then be beneficial to the students. So beneficial to 200 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,799 our students, beneficial to the instructors out there, and then 201 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,799 also to something that we could present that could be 202 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:06,039 permeated out to the world of golf, like via a 203 00:11:06,039 --> 00:11:09,399 golf magazine. So back in two thousand, I guess it 204 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:12,440 was we did. We've started really doing a series of 205 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,799 articles for Golf magazine and that have continued where we 206 00:11:17,159 --> 00:11:19,840 just you know, again, back in that day, we worked 207 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,360 with Lauren Anderson and we might just do two or 208 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:27,039 three studies on the best way to practice lag putting. Actually, 209 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,080 that's where the Instinct Putting book came from because we 210 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,200 did a study for Lauren Anderson and we had people 211 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:35,679 practice looking at the hole while they were working on 212 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,480 their distance control, and that kind of shifted into that 213 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:39,799 that's that type of study. 214 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,039 Speaker 3: So with Evidence Based Golf the book. Again, would you 215 00:11:50,639 --> 00:11:54,960 if one of your students, you know, a new golfer 216 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,279 versus a very serious golfer, but came to you and said, oh, 217 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,159 I saw that you have this book Evidence Based Golf. 218 00:12:04,799 --> 00:12:07,360 You know, I'm just learning to play. Is this something 219 00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:10,919 I should be reading or should I just listen to 220 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,519 my teacher and not get myself caught up in this. 221 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:15,559 You know, I'm new to the game. I play a 222 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:16,840 couple of times a year, and. 223 00:12:17,399 --> 00:12:21,279 Speaker 2: Sure, well, I think that's that's interesting. I think for 224 00:12:21,399 --> 00:12:25,919 some people the having that type of information is important, 225 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:33,320 and they they they have an appreciation for maybe the 226 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,600 simplicity of a study where we just look at how 227 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:40,399 high you should tee your driver and understanding that how 228 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,960 the study took place, the findings, the summary of the findings. 229 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,399 I mean, it's pretty simple. But at the same time, 230 00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:49,120 maybe that person it would would kind of interest them 231 00:12:49,159 --> 00:12:51,360 in that regard just that reading it, and it would 232 00:12:51,399 --> 00:12:54,679 be interesting in it. I'd say probably for a beginner golfer, 233 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,480 it wouldn't really be something that would be a necessity 234 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,559 I would I would strongly suggest they read more material 235 00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:03,240 on the ball flight laws and have a better understanding 236 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,440 what makes the ball do what it does. I think 237 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,240 one of the questions I've always gotten from folks over 238 00:13:08,279 --> 00:13:10,720 the years, still, do you know if you're going to 239 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,440 if you're going to give somebody a book to read, 240 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,720 what book would you give them to read? I've always 241 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,200 told people go read the quick here's for the weekend golfer. 242 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,440 Whether you're a new teacher or you're a new golfer, 243 00:13:21,919 --> 00:13:26,200 having a good sense of ball flight and the being 244 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,960 able to look at ball flight and diagnose what's going 245 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,279 on in your swing or the student swing is not 246 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,080 a bad idea. So that's a I mean, that book's 247 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,840 been around forever, probably nineteen seventy three, but it was 248 00:13:36,159 --> 00:13:39,600 John Jacobs looking at ball flight, how you know, what 249 00:13:39,639 --> 00:13:42,559 makes the ball do what it's doing. The new material 250 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,519 out there that's even more in depth because the track 251 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:46,159 man and some of the technology we have, I mean, 252 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,759 it's even better. So having a good sense of ball 253 00:13:49,799 --> 00:13:51,440 flight and what makes the ball do what it is 254 00:13:51,799 --> 00:13:53,720 do what it does rather, I would be suggesting to 255 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,960 any newer golfer, and I'd also suggest that to instructors too, 256 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,440 because there seems to be some misconceptions out there what's 257 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:00,000 really going on. 258 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can definitely see instructors like reading this saying, ah, 259 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,440 got it, Okay, I understand that. But then I also 260 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:12,200 see you know, because the audience on this show runs 261 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,320 the gamut from beginning. You know, new golfers too, and 262 00:14:16,399 --> 00:14:18,679 I've had a lot of instructors say that they use 263 00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:22,039 the show as research, which is really awesome. But the 264 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,759 beginning golfer, it's like, I'm I don't know what what 265 00:14:25,799 --> 00:14:28,120 am I supposed to do with this, you know, But 266 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,039 I can see a teacher saying, absolutely it makes to 267 00:14:31,039 --> 00:14:31,559 make sense. 268 00:14:31,639 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Yeah, for a beginner golfer, I'm not 269 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,840 too sure. I mean, I certainly have people say that 270 00:14:36,879 --> 00:14:39,279 they've enjoyed it, but I think it's more there, you know, 271 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,320 they're not really they I guess probably I haven't met 272 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,200 a couple of people that were newer to the game 273 00:14:44,279 --> 00:14:46,600 and read it, but I think they had probably read 274 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:48,399 any type of book like that and enjoyed just kind 275 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,600 of how their brain thinks and how they like that 276 00:14:50,679 --> 00:14:53,960 side of things. So maybe more of it just their background. Yeah, 277 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,440 But as far as the beginner golfer, I'm not too sure. 278 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,399 I mean, certainly the studies where we talk about those 279 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,440 two types of cues, internal and external would be interesting, 280 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,240 but I'm not even too sure a beginner could really 281 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:07,360 apply that to their own game as much as an 282 00:15:07,399 --> 00:15:08,799 instructor could to their teaching. 283 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, we've had a lot of scientists on and mental 284 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:18,039 coaches talking about internal versus external targets and that how 285 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,480 if you're focusing on your mechanics while you're hitting a ball, 286 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:23,879 or while you're making your swing, let's not even talk 287 00:15:23,879 --> 00:15:25,799 about hitting a ball when you're making your swing. If 288 00:15:25,799 --> 00:15:29,720 you're thinking about your mechanics, chances are it's not going 289 00:15:29,799 --> 00:15:30,279 to go well. 290 00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:33,039 Speaker 2: It's really hard, yeah for sure, yea. And yet you 291 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,000 know what, when we're kind of looking at that and 292 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,000 not you mentioned earlier the rabbit hole, you can kind 293 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,440 of go down the rabbit hole some of the stuff. 294 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,159 But I think what's interesting from my perspective is that 295 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,320 if you talk to the amateur golfer, you know, we 296 00:15:47,399 --> 00:15:49,519 have them fill out a questionnaire to start before they 297 00:15:49,559 --> 00:15:54,480 start the school, and it's overwhelming the amount of internal 298 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,519 swing cues they have. When they walk in the door. 299 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,399 You ask them what they're working on, and they'll give 300 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,639 you a probably the average befour or five things they're 301 00:16:02,679 --> 00:16:05,480 working on in their swing when they're hitting golf ball, 302 00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:08,240 which is of course that's challenging, but they all tend 303 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,080 to be internal in nature. So I turned my shoulders, 304 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,039 I shift my weight, I drop my right over to 305 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,960 my side, whatever it is, and they don't really think 306 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,480 a lot about what the club's doing, and their awareness 307 00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:22,039 of what the club's doing is really challenging for them 308 00:16:22,039 --> 00:16:25,279 because they think, again, they pick up a book and 309 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,039 it's probably going to be geared towards internal cues. They're 310 00:16:28,039 --> 00:16:31,320 going to read a blog and it's going to be 311 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,279 probably internal cues. They're going to hear tour players talking 312 00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:36,279 about what they're working on. They're probably going to be 313 00:16:36,279 --> 00:16:40,360 some internal cues, and it's challenging for them. So I 314 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,799 think for the student, at least, my experience has been 315 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,240 as if they recognize that there's two types of swing 316 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,360 queues and that they can if they just give it 317 00:16:49,399 --> 00:16:52,600 a thought, they can figure out an external swing queue 318 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,200 where they think about the club that could replace the 319 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,840 internal queue, and they're going to probably be a little 320 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,720 bit better off with that if they just took the 321 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,120 time do that. But they kind of default into left arm, 322 00:17:02,159 --> 00:17:04,400 straight shoulder turning, whatever. 323 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:07,599 Speaker 3: You do right, and there's a myriad of things that 324 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,880 they're thinking about. Oh, all the way across and you 325 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,559 were saying you started doing this research back at the 326 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:18,200 let's call it the turn of the century. It seems 327 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,079 like I know it's when you say that, folks our age, 328 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,759 we always think of going eighteen hundred to nineteen hundred, 329 00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:31,640 but that's not where we are. But the technology from 330 00:17:31,799 --> 00:17:36,839 when you started to today is so radically different. How 331 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,039 has it impacted the results of your studies? And if 332 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:41,240 you had to redoce. 333 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,759 Speaker 2: Some you know, I think we were always pretty lucky 334 00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:48,759 with any type of study that we were doing. We 335 00:17:48,799 --> 00:17:51,440 always had outcome. It was always based on well, not 336 00:17:51,519 --> 00:17:55,680 of them, but outcome is probably the majority of the studies. 337 00:17:56,319 --> 00:18:00,119 So if we didn't have the technology where we could 338 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,920 measure it with a track manner back in two thousand, 339 00:18:06,039 --> 00:18:09,640 the Titleist launch model they had, if we couldn't utilize that, 340 00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:12,880 we could always measure it just the old fashion way, 341 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,440 which would be hit a bunch of golf balls on 342 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,559 a flat surface and measure how far they are offline, 343 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,160 you know, look at the dispersion rate that way. So 344 00:18:21,319 --> 00:18:23,519 it's we've always been able to do that, but the 345 00:18:23,519 --> 00:18:25,920 technology makes it a lot easier, and certainly we can 346 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:31,200 get more into some of the finer, the secondary measures 347 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,480 that we'd be looking at. But I remember years ago 348 00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:36,079 we did a study on the length of a driver 349 00:18:36,319 --> 00:18:38,960 out on the first hole of number two, which is 350 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,640 at the time was relatively flat wall to wall grass 351 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,720 and so there wasn't any of the waste areas and 352 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,559 they mowed the area down slightly for us, and we 353 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,920 just had people hit drivers off the first tee and 354 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,759 they hit drivers that were one inch over standard length 355 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,519 standard length and one inch under standard length. And of 356 00:18:55,559 --> 00:18:58,480 course everybody liked the longer shafted driver, but they were 357 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,000 more accurate with the shorter shafted driver, which was kind 358 00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:01,759 of the name of the game. 359 00:19:02,519 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, the longer one, you're getting more distance. 360 00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, on the one out of hit a little bit further. 361 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,799 The other nine were its good and then the shorter 362 00:19:09,839 --> 00:19:12,599 shafted driver they hit a lot straighter. And at the 363 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,640 end of the day the average was greater. But they 364 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,799 always remember that one or two drivers that went with 365 00:19:16,839 --> 00:19:20,559 the longer clubs. But that's everybody knows that. But we 366 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,079 did the old fashioned way. We had a rope down 367 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,119 the middle of the fairway and we measured the dispersion 368 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,640 off the center line of the fairway and we did 369 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,880 it that way. So nowadays that'd be a lot easier 370 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:31,640 with TrackMan, how. 371 00:19:31,599 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 3: High tech of you. 372 00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:35,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, we didn't even use We didn't even we didn't 373 00:19:35,839 --> 00:19:38,960 even use later range finders. We just had a we 374 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,000 had one of those longs yards yards or the measuring 375 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,960 tools that would run for fifty feet, so we just 376 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:47,960 run back and forth with that. So, yeah, we we 377 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,519 did it old school for a while, but the technology 378 00:19:50,559 --> 00:19:52,039 has really changed it because we can look at so 379 00:19:52,079 --> 00:19:54,079 many different things. You know, right now we're looking at 380 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,119 we're just trying to gather data on uneven lives and 381 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,960 at least and I'm I'm very guilty of this, but 382 00:20:01,519 --> 00:20:04,400 I always thought that if the ball is above your feet, 383 00:20:05,079 --> 00:20:07,000 the person is going to hit it to the low side. 384 00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:09,079 So the balls above my feet, it's going to go 385 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,559 to the low side. If the ball is below my feet, 386 00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:13,000 it's going to go to the low side of the 387 00:20:13,039 --> 00:20:16,079 right side. Uphill lie is going to hit it higher 388 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:17,759 and shorter, and a downhill lie is going to hit 389 00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:22,039 it lower. Well, if you just give people a chance 390 00:20:22,079 --> 00:20:25,039 to hit these shots, we don't really necessarily see it's 391 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,039 that easily defined, or the results aren't as simple as 392 00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:31,920 we think. We were running some people through the uneven 393 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,200 lies today and we've had of the people we had today, 394 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,839 probably twenty five percent of them hit it higher on 395 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,839 an uphill lie than they do off the level lie, 396 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,920 so they're on an uphill lie. I could see that counterintuitive, 397 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,839 but depends on their swing. And we had some people 398 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:48,960 and we've seen this so far and gathering the data 399 00:20:49,039 --> 00:20:52,440 that if the balls below their feet, they actually hit 400 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,400 it straighter and their cliphead speed increases. But what are 401 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,480 they Yeah, but what are they thinking. They're thinking that 402 00:20:58,519 --> 00:21:00,240 it's going to go to the right because that's what 403 00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:02,640 people like me have told them. And then they hit 404 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:06,720 five shots and they're all going dead straight, but they're 405 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,359 aiming left. So they're thinking they're doing something wrong with 406 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,880 their technique. But maybe, depending on your golf swing, the 407 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,599 ball below your feet, you'll hit it pretty straight, so 408 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,039 you don't have to name left. So that's you know, 409 00:21:16,079 --> 00:21:18,079 that's where track man can be so helpful. Some of 410 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:20,200 the other technology can be so helpful because you can 411 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,519 really measure this stuff and get a really good sense 412 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:25,000 of what the ball is doing. We're watching it live. 413 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,119 Without that technology, it's hard to kind of gauge that, Okay, 414 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,880 that was two more degrees left. It's hard to do there, 415 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,160 but the technology allows us to do that. So kind 416 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:34,960 of a long answer, but the technology has been a 417 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,640 huge change and helpful for us. 418 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 3: It's very funny that you talk about the scientific process 419 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:47,720 is you know, you got to look at the process 420 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:50,640 versus the outcome. But when we're teaching golf or when 421 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,160 we're telling people about golf, it's all it's like, just 422 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,319 think about the process, don't worry about the outcome. And 423 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,200 on the scientific one, you're thinking about the outcome the process, right, 424 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,079 But golfers, yeah, stop thinking about the outcome. 425 00:22:04,799 --> 00:22:07,799 Speaker 2: Yeah for sure, Yeah, that's true. I mean, if you're 426 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:10,359 gonna go hit a golf ball over water, don't be 427 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,640 worrying about the water. Think about the process that will 428 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:14,880 help you hit it over the water. For sure. The 429 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,640 outcome will wear you out, but we'll make it harder, 430 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:18,279 for sure. 431 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:19,279 Speaker 3: We'll wear you out. 432 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely well, you know the outcome. You can get sideways 433 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,359 on stuff. But the yeah, I mean it is. It 434 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,680 is interesting. We did a study a year ago, a 435 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,480 couple of years ago, rather I guess now. And so 436 00:22:32,519 --> 00:22:34,799 there's two ways to aim. If you know, if you're 437 00:22:34,839 --> 00:22:39,680 out on the golf course, do you use an intermediate target? Yes, okay, 438 00:22:39,759 --> 00:22:40,119 and then. 439 00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 3: There's the shot yeah yeah, for me, every shot. 440 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,519 Speaker 2: You like that it works for you. So we did 441 00:22:47,599 --> 00:22:50,200 a study where we had people come in and they 442 00:22:50,599 --> 00:22:53,640 they did multiple ways of aiming. One way was using 443 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,759 the intermediate target and they would hit shots. So we 444 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,920 just measured the outcome. And then there's another way obviously, 445 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:02,519 or you aim at the target of the distance. We 446 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,720 phrase that, or we think of it as term as 447 00:23:04,759 --> 00:23:07,759 distal target aiming, So you're aiming at a pan or 448 00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:09,839 a middle of fairway, whatever it is. So you've got 449 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,119 two distinct ways. And we had people just hit shots 450 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,279 and we just measured the outcome. You know, aim it 451 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,920 up and hit it and let's see what happens. And 452 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,400 we found that as groups, one way was not really 453 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,319 more effective than the other. Now I had cameras mounted 454 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,839 on the ceiling at the same time and looking at 455 00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:30,720 the club fase, and I would say that the intermediate 456 00:23:30,759 --> 00:23:34,079 target people seem to be aiming a degree or two 457 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,440 more square to that to the target line than if 458 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,519 they didn't have the intermediate target. So but again we 459 00:23:41,559 --> 00:23:44,920 didn't see anything significant in the outcome. So at the 460 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,799 end of the day, figure out which one's best for you, 461 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,960 either intermediate or the distal target. But again as a 462 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,960 as a golfer. Maybe that would be helpful for you 463 00:23:54,079 --> 00:23:55,960 to now say, Okay, I'm going to go practice and 464 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,480 I'm going to hit twenty shots with my six iron 465 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,519 with one strategy than twenty shots with my six arm 466 00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:04,039 the other way, and see which one I perform better 467 00:24:04,039 --> 00:24:07,559 with kind of look at the dispersion, or maybe go 468 00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:09,559 out on the golf course and play around a golf 469 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,279 with one way or the other. And so you know, 470 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,200 that's kind of where I guess I'm kind of circling 471 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:17,119 back to. That's kind of what we try to do 472 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,720 here research wise. That just makes it a little bit 473 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,079 more research driven than just anecdotal, where my generation would 474 00:24:24,079 --> 00:24:27,039 have been told, you know, use the intermediate target no 475 00:24:27,079 --> 00:24:29,200 matter what, it's the only way to do it, which again, 476 00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:31,519 maybe that's not always the case for everybody. 477 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:36,079 Speaker 3: Right right, And let's define intermediate target for those who 478 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,799 are now their ears are perked like, wait a minute, 479 00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:41,839 is that something that's a few inches in front of 480 00:24:41,839 --> 00:24:44,559 the ball or is that the midpoint of where my 481 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,160 distal target is? 482 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 2: Well, where would you define We defined it as two 483 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,960 feet in front of the golf ball. Okay, so now 484 00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:54,640 the idea of it being that close to the golf 485 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,200 ball was most people can look at the club face 486 00:24:58,279 --> 00:25:01,799 and perfectly aim the club at that intermediate target without 487 00:25:01,839 --> 00:25:03,720 having to move their head. And so that was the 488 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:05,759 idea of just making it simpler that way. And we 489 00:25:05,799 --> 00:25:08,359 did meet some people that used intermediate targets and they were, 490 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,000 you know, eighty yards away, so maybe God. 491 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,279 Speaker 3: Keep my golf. It varies from person to. 492 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,319 Speaker 2: Person, but when we tested it, we did two feet 493 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:19,160 just to streamline it. 494 00:25:19,839 --> 00:25:23,079 Speaker 3: Okay, well, that is the perfect opportunity to pivot when 495 00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:26,640 you talk about looking at it, you know, while you're 496 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,960 hitting it or not. Let's move on to instinct putting. Sure, 497 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,240 I've become pretty obsessed with it lately. I've been reading 498 00:25:34,279 --> 00:25:42,240 the book and finding that I really like it good 499 00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:46,160 a lot. And when I talk to people about it, 500 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,759 they're like, that is the most radical thing, the most 501 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:55,599 heretical thing. Yeah, heretical concept that I've ever heard. And then, 502 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,960 you know, you bring up the obvious conversation of when 503 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,480 you're shooting a basket, are you looking at the ball? No, 504 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,759 when you're when you're hitting a baseball, you know, and 505 00:26:05,759 --> 00:26:07,920 they're like, oh, yeah, hitting a baseball, No, no, you yeah, 506 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,000 you're you're looking at the ball, but you're not looking 507 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:16,079 at the bat like with tennis. And what I've really 508 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,319 been very pleased with is what I'm doing shorter putts, 509 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,440 especially because that's the bugaboo for me is you know, 510 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,240 you you've got to make those four and five footers, 511 00:26:26,279 --> 00:26:30,319 six footers, eight footers. When I'm looking at the hole 512 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,680 versus looking at the ball, I don't think about or 513 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,880 I don't get caught up in the mechanics of the 514 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,200 swing like I do. When I'm looking at the ball 515 00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:43,839 and watching the buttterhead move around, I'm like, oh, no, no, no, 516 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:49,200 you know, and then the distrust, the doubt just flares 517 00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:52,680 up like fireworks versus when I'm looking at the hole. 518 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 2: Ye. No, I agree. I think most of the time, 519 00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:02,799 when I'm somebody that is doing the idea of looking 520 00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:06,200 at the whole, it really just frees them up a 521 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,960 little bit and makes the whole motion a little bit 522 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,799 more athletic. And even though there could be flawed in 523 00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:12,160 their stroke, if they just make it a little bit 524 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,880 more athletic, it tends to be a little bit more consistent. 525 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,559 And if it's a little bit more consistent, there's a 526 00:27:17,559 --> 00:27:20,279 little bit more predictability to it. And it's one of 527 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,480 those things where just it can be very helpful for them. 528 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:24,079 And and I agree, I think a lot a lot 529 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,599 of golfers will are looking at the putter on a 530 00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:28,640 two footer. They're looking at the putter going back and 531 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,039 forth and saying, oh, I should I arcutter straight back 532 00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:33,680 straight through as the face open, and really just it's 533 00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:36,799 very challenging to make that putt when you're kind of 534 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,759 preoccupied looking at all this other stuff. So for sure, yeah, 535 00:27:39,839 --> 00:27:41,839 I agree, And it was very It was a big 536 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,079 surprise to me when we did the study, I'll be 537 00:27:45,079 --> 00:27:47,640 honest with that. When I we did all the measurements, 538 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,599 we had the groups do their routines, and then when 539 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,000 I went to put in a format for my research 540 00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:56,519 partner to throw it in the system and analyze it, 541 00:27:56,559 --> 00:27:58,839 I really thought I had typed, I had done the 542 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,680 formula wrong because it was so it's so different, you know, 543 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,799 the results were so much surprising towards looking at the hole. 544 00:28:05,319 --> 00:28:07,240 I really thought I must have done this all wrong 545 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,720 because there that can't be that big a deal. And 546 00:28:09,759 --> 00:28:12,039 I had went through it again and it was right on. 547 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:12,640 It was just. 548 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,039 Speaker 3: Please expand on those results, and so we get a 549 00:28:17,079 --> 00:28:17,400 sense of. 550 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, well we just you know, we had people, 551 00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:24,599 we had people doing different distances, randomizing their practice session, 552 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,400 doing different distances, and at the end of the day, 553 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,680 when we measured old school way, how far was the 554 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,680 ball away from the cup from the center of the cup, 555 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,440 you know, with a measuring tool, it was a lot 556 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,359 closer when they practiced looking at the hole. And again 557 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,559 that was just surprising that it would be that big 558 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:45,160 a difference, and it really was very significant. And but 559 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,119 again we then you think about it, and then you 560 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,680 talk to people, and it's to your point, well, basketball 561 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,240 player are not going to look at the basketball when 562 00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:54,000 he's trying to shoot a shoot a free throw. And 563 00:28:54,079 --> 00:28:56,920 so it talked to a couple of researchers and they said, well, sure, 564 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,240 it makes a lot of sense that they would have 565 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,319 a better sense of the distance because they're looking at 566 00:29:00,319 --> 00:29:02,799 the cup and they're now equating energy and speed of 567 00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:07,400 the stroke to get there. And I find it extremely 568 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,079 effective because a lot of people if you watch them putt, 569 00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:12,400 if you just go out on a golf course with 570 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,799 people and watch them put and watch their routine, they 571 00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:18,720 will very often aim up at the putt, at aim 572 00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:20,759 up at the pen like they want to and then 573 00:29:20,799 --> 00:29:24,960 do two or three strokes off to the side without 574 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,839 ever looking at the at the distance they're trying to 575 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,480 hit it. So by the time they stand over the 576 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,359 golf ball, they have no sense of the distance, and 577 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,200 so they're distancing very good. We'll just have them, if anything, 578 00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:35,640 just ha them do the rehearsal strokes looking at the hole. 579 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,240 We're looking at the distance they want it to go. 580 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:39,599 It's just the simple fact of that will help them, 581 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,160 or the step of that will help them hit at 582 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,559 the right distance. And a lot of people do a 583 00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:45,839 lot better looking at the hole the whole time. And 584 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,480 you're kind of doing it from all different distances, not 585 00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:52,559 just a set, not just the eight footers or something 586 00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:52,759 like that. 587 00:29:53,279 --> 00:29:55,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, No, I'm trying to get comfortable with it. 588 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,920 And like the closer I get to the hole, then 589 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,880 I'm not just looking the hole. I'm picking a spot 590 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,960 like you know it, if I'm going uphill, I'm looking 591 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,759 at the back edge of the cup right right behind 592 00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:12,359 the pin. Or I also do you know, when I'm 593 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,720 when I'm putting, I look at the hole as a 594 00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:17,480 clock and I'm standing at six o'clock and it's like, 595 00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:19,480 where's the ball? Where do I feel the ball is 596 00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:20,960 going to break and go into the hole. It is 597 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,359 going to go in four o'clock, is going to go 598 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,480 into seven o'clock. Right, So I'm looking at that specific 599 00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:31,319 spot when I'm looking at the hole. And trust is 600 00:30:31,599 --> 00:30:34,640 such a big part of this. You know, you've got 601 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,960 to remove the doubt. You've got to And that's like 602 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,240 I remember shooting free throws all the time is just 603 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,240 feeling it, feeling it, and now with the putter and 604 00:30:44,359 --> 00:30:48,279 just being able to hit that spot, my my distance 605 00:30:48,359 --> 00:30:51,200 control is so much better my and now you know, 606 00:30:51,319 --> 00:30:54,279 not worrying about oh did I get it over that 607 00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:56,839 spot eight inches in front of the you know, eight 608 00:30:56,839 --> 00:30:59,079 in front of the ball. Oh no, I'm you know, 609 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,960 it's just focus on something else. But you really have 610 00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:05,319 to trust this. It's not something you just go out 611 00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:07,279 and do. No because you've heard a podcast. 612 00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree, but I think if you were 613 00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:13,039 to In fact, I did this on the golf course 614 00:31:13,079 --> 00:31:14,839 just the other day with some folks that were doing 615 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,880 on course in our golf school, and they're they're just 616 00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:21,400 really struggling with distance control. They self admittedly said they 617 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,799 always struggle with that so we just went out on 618 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,119 the I guess we were on the second green of course, 619 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,079 number one, just doing some lag putting, and I had 620 00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:31,480 them try just three putts where they looked at the 621 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,000 hole or looked where they needed to put the ball 622 00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:38,559 to compensate with the break, and they immediately did better. 623 00:31:39,359 --> 00:31:41,799 But again it was just it wasn't It didn't change 624 00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:43,839 their strokes. It just simply gave them a better sense 625 00:31:43,839 --> 00:31:45,359 of how hard they need to hit it to make 626 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:46,960 you go the right distance. It's a it was a 627 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,799 sixty five foot putt. They're not going to make it. 628 00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:50,279 All they need to do is just get it close 629 00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:53,720 enough to tap it in. They're trying to read the break, 630 00:31:53,759 --> 00:31:55,680 they're trying to figure out what to do with their stroke, 631 00:31:55,839 --> 00:31:57,480 should I arc it or go straight back straight through? 632 00:31:57,519 --> 00:31:59,559 You know, they're they're deubbing and all this stuff. Where 633 00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:02,039 it's point, it really just becomes a distance. But make 634 00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:04,720 it go sixty five feet, And I think if anything 635 00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:07,519 simplifies it for people when you do that out on 636 00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:11,039 the golf course, it simplifies it. And again kind of 637 00:32:11,039 --> 00:32:14,200 the if you don't necessarily do that while you're putting, 638 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,039 if you just did the rehearsal strokes with the same strategy. 639 00:32:18,039 --> 00:32:20,359 You're looking at of okay, how you know where's the 640 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,839 ball going to enter the cup? Is it going to 641 00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:24,640 be nine o'clock or six o'clock or four o'clock? And 642 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,880 then from there, how hard am I trying to hit it? 643 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,279 Just the rehearsal strokes, if they're more in line with that, 644 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:32,680 are going to be be effective for you much better. 645 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,319 And the amount of people that just basically look at 646 00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:37,720 the ball where they're doing the rehearsal strokes amazes me. 647 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,759 They're never looking at the distance they want it to go. 648 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: Taking the rehearsal strokes, and of course we're all like 649 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,960 taking the rehearsal strokes. You look over at the hole, 650 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,599 you look down at the ball, you look at your 651 00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:56,559 putter head, and you're taking your rehearsal strokes, trying to 652 00:32:56,599 --> 00:32:59,319 remember how far right, Oh yeah, I've got it locked 653 00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:01,920 in exactly how far it is, you know, and you 654 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,359 kind of lose sight of the distance that you're doing 655 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:05,799 when you're looking at the putter ahead. 656 00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I agree, I did. And they're say, and 657 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,000 I'm not too sure there's gonna be people out there 658 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,200 that swearing I am with all this stuff. But if 659 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,079 you have a I know that in our when you're 660 00:33:18,119 --> 00:33:20,880 making a swing change with somebody. I tell people this 661 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,440 because it's based on motor learning that I've read and 662 00:33:23,519 --> 00:33:26,119 been told by accountless people. But if you do a 663 00:33:26,119 --> 00:33:28,480 rehearsal swing of what you want to do and you're 664 00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:31,240 changing your technique. So let's say you're working on not 665 00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:33,200 swinging out, then you want to swing from end out 666 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,799 classic thing, you do the rehearsal swing, You step up 667 00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:38,160 to the ball and you give it a hit, and 668 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,119 you've got about a five or six maybe seven second window. 669 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,039 Arguments back and forth that you have to hit the 670 00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:47,200 ball within that timeframe before you start losing the field. 671 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,359 So somebody standing over the they've looked at the pin, and 672 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,480 I think it carries over to this as well. If 673 00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:55,000 they look at a sixty five foot putt and then 674 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,920 they start looking at the ground and looking at their 675 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,000 putter and the ball and looking at their putter and 676 00:33:59,079 --> 00:34:02,519 kind of thinking about their technique, most likely they've probably 677 00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:04,240 lost the sense of how hard they're going to hit 678 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,720 it to make you go the sixty five feet because 679 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,559 they're getting distracted by other all this other stuff and 680 00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:11,760 so I think it would hold up. Just that, do 681 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,960 the couple practice strokes, looking at how far you want 682 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,920 it to go left to the if his brake's left right, 683 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,239 look past the hole to the left to give yourself 684 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,239 plenty of room for the break, and do a couple 685 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,360 of strokes and put it, and you're probably going to 686 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,079 be better off than not doing it that way. But 687 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,039 certainly the rehearsal swings and that hitting the ball right 688 00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:32,920 afterwards is very helpful and making any type of swing change. 689 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:33,280 For sure. 690 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,679 Speaker 3: We had Tim Tucker on the show a while ago 691 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,400 in the eight hundreds, was that in twenty twenty three? 692 00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:43,679 Do you know Tim? 693 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:44,679 Speaker 2: I know the name for sure. 694 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So he is a putting guru, but also 695 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:55,440 he's a PGA tour caddie. And the week after he 696 00:34:55,559 --> 00:34:57,599 was on the show, he started carrying the bag for 697 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,159 Kit Kitty Yama and Kit one that week. The thing 698 00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:04,000 that stood out to me in that conversation that kind 699 00:35:04,039 --> 00:35:08,559 of blew my mind was his emphasis of the point 700 00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:11,880 that we take a GPS out on the golf course 701 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,719 all the time, we take a rangefinder and we're like, okay, 702 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,920 I'm one hundred and thirty yards from the hole, I'm 703 00:35:17,639 --> 00:35:19,719 eighty eight yards from the hole, I'm one hundred and 704 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,320 seventy five yard. You know, we're looking at these distance 705 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,920 to determine which club to take and how you want 706 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,960 to approach that swing. But when we get on the green, 707 00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:30,440 we just stand there and look at the ball and 708 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,639 the hole and he says, which, I have implemented my 709 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:41,039 game and it's been quite it works well. From my head, 710 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,519 step it off. Realize what your distance is, not just 711 00:35:46,599 --> 00:35:49,960 by look, but tell yourself, Okay, I've done an eighteen 712 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,840 foot put before. Okay I've done a thirty foot putt before, 713 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,239 or seven foot whatever it is, so you get a 714 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:57,719 feel for the feel. 715 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 2: Sure right, oh absolutely. 716 00:36:01,039 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 3: And that to me, I mean, do you advocate of 717 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,800 stepping it off or you guys just like take the practice, 718 00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:11,760 rehearsal strokes and move forward. 719 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,559 Speaker 2: You know, it depends on the skill set of the golfer. 720 00:36:16,039 --> 00:36:19,440 With the vast majority of people I meet, pacing it 721 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,079 off that linear distance, knowing how far it is is 722 00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:25,800 a really good stepping stone to getting good distance control 723 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,559 on their putting. If they know it's sixty five feet, 724 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,360 they at least if they practice a sixty footer, they 725 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,480 can easily add five more feet to it, just because 726 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,719 they can recollect what sixty feet felt like and when 727 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,360 they're making trying to do that putt that distance. So absolutely, 728 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,599 Now there's some players. In fact, I was watching somebody 729 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,719 putt today and they have really good touch. No matter 730 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,000 what any scenario I put them in. Really they had 731 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,360 a good sense of how hard to hit it to 732 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,119 make it go that distance, and then they just had 733 00:36:56,159 --> 00:36:57,599 to take a little off or add a little bit 734 00:36:57,639 --> 00:37:00,000 because it was uphill or downhill or against screen or whatever. 735 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,559 But they're just instinctively really good at that. So I 736 00:37:03,599 --> 00:37:05,639 would say, you know, that person doesn't have to. But 737 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,719 most of the people, if you say pay them off, 738 00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:12,039 they're kind of surprised with I think they don't really 739 00:37:12,039 --> 00:37:13,679 have a good sense of you know, how far is 740 00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:16,519 twenty five feet? You know, sometimes people are looking at 741 00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:18,239 a twenty five foot and they're you know, if you 742 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:19,920 ask them how far it is, they'll say twelve feet. 743 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,760 It's like, well not quite, So it's just kind of funny. 744 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,840 Their awareness of it is just not so good. So anyway, yeah, 745 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,039 definitely past it off. And in what we do quite 746 00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:32,360 often in the schools, we'll set up a station where 747 00:37:33,119 --> 00:37:36,079 almost like a ladder drill. In fact, we recreate the 748 00:37:36,119 --> 00:37:38,920 study and instinct putting that started that where we have 749 00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:42,639 them putt from different distances. We randomize it so there 750 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,800 might be a five ten, fifteen twenty twenty five thirty 751 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,360 foot putt. They bounce around between the different distances trying 752 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,360 to make it go that to the cup, and you 753 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,199 don't do it in like five ten, fifteen twenty. Bounce 754 00:37:56,199 --> 00:37:58,280 it around a little bit, and then they start getting 755 00:37:58,280 --> 00:37:59,880 to where they can have they have a good sense 756 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,599 of a thirty foot putt is this much energy? So 757 00:38:02,679 --> 00:38:04,119 then you just turn and say, okay, now make it 758 00:38:04,199 --> 00:38:06,239 go thirty feet and make you go twenty feet. They're 759 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,199 already start starting to get a sense of it, or 760 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,159 like a template maybe of how hard to hit it 761 00:38:10,199 --> 00:38:13,119 to make it go the right distance. And it's but 762 00:38:13,159 --> 00:38:15,440 it's the beginning part of it, knowing if they pace 763 00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:17,280 it off, it's it's a thirty foot putt. Well, I 764 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,119 know how hard to hit it. Now at least I 765 00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:21,119 can get I'm closer to knowing how hard to hit 766 00:38:21,159 --> 00:38:23,320 it for sure. That's a great way to do it. 767 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,599 Speaker 3: I've talked to instructors and brought up the concept of 768 00:38:27,639 --> 00:38:30,639 instinct putting, of looking at the hole while you're putting, 769 00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:32,719 and a lot of them are like, well, you know, 770 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,360 that's that's really an interesting method, but it's probably better 771 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,079 for when you're practicing, not on the course, and you're 772 00:38:41,159 --> 00:38:43,519 even saying what we should be doing is when we 773 00:38:43,559 --> 00:38:46,880 take our rehearsal swings on the course looking at the whole. 774 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,599 Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, yeah, yeah, no doubt about it. I find it. 775 00:38:50,039 --> 00:38:52,159 Now that's a little bit ancdotal because I'm just going 776 00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:55,480 by my experience. But for sure, everybody I've ever had to, 777 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,079 any time I've ever watched anybody never look at where 778 00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:00,880 they want the ball to go the distance they needed 779 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,320 to go. If they just do that, if I add 780 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,559 that step to their routine, they improve immediately, they automatically, 781 00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:11,719 and they'll actually they'll actually hit one every once in 782 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:16,079 a while and immediately say, oh, that's too hard because 783 00:39:16,079 --> 00:39:19,239 they recognize I put too much energy in that one 784 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,400 to make it go that distance. So it is very 785 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,199 helpful for sure. 786 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 3: No wait, let me let me stop you. And when 787 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,320 you say that's too hard, is that when they're looking 788 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,519 at the hole, well, or when they're looking at. 789 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,599 Speaker 2: The bull look at the ball? They might be looking 790 00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:31,960 at the ball on this one, but they'll hit it 791 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,199 and immediately no, that's too much energy for the distance 792 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,119 they needed to go. And they're knowing it as the 793 00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:38,559 ball's ten feet off the face of the putter, so 794 00:39:38,559 --> 00:39:41,960 they're even their their awareness of speed becomes increased very 795 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,880 quickly or improved very quickly. Yeah, I think it's a bit. 796 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,519 I think it's hard for people to do that out 797 00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:49,039 on the golf course. But I mean a lot of 798 00:39:49,039 --> 00:39:52,239 people that I know that have switched to that strategy, 799 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,199 that looking at the hole do it because they get 800 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,880 so distracted with the putter, you know, watching the putter 801 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,079 go back and forth and getting consumed by that that 802 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,440 if they just take that out of the equation and 803 00:40:03,559 --> 00:40:06,519 the strokes are not that bad, and if they's got 804 00:40:06,519 --> 00:40:08,280 to free free themselves up a little bit just to 805 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,440 get the right distance and the right speed. But it's 806 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,840 amazing how quickly people can adapt to it. I've gone 807 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,719 out on the golf course and tried it some. But 808 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,679 it is awkward, no doubt it is awkward, But some 809 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,840 people it's about the only way thing, but they really 810 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,360 struggle with putting without that. 811 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:35,159 Speaker 3: Do you recommend instinct putting to putters to be looking 812 00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:38,719 at the hole all the time, or you know, once 813 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,440 they get comfortable with it. Is this something you use 814 00:40:42,039 --> 00:40:45,920 just on your short puts inside ten feet maybe or whatever, 815 00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:47,960 you know, or take it all the time. 816 00:40:48,079 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good. That's a good question. I think probably that. 817 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,639 And this is just more my observation of people who 818 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,920 use that strategy. It makes it instit you could use 819 00:41:01,039 --> 00:41:04,159 it all the time, but I think some people really 820 00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:08,519 are more comfortable with it in like, for fact, I'm 821 00:41:08,559 --> 00:41:10,760 just thinking of a person the other day that if 822 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,000 they were outside of ten feet they use that, but 823 00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:16,159 then inside the ten feet they felt like they had 824 00:41:16,199 --> 00:41:18,960 a good they had a free stroke, it was not 825 00:41:19,079 --> 00:41:21,440 bogged down by mechanics, and so they weren't worried so 826 00:41:21,519 --> 00:41:24,760 much about the speed. But on the on a forty footer, 827 00:41:25,199 --> 00:41:27,320 they're always kind of defaulting to I got to have 828 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:28,760 a better sense of how hard to hit it. So 829 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,880 they felt like their speed was really the issue for 830 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,760 those types of putts, which means statistically it's probably true. 831 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,320 I mean, you're probably gonna three putt from forty five 832 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,639 feet more so by you know, by distance and by 833 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,440 by misreading the green I suppose. I mean not all 834 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,679 the time, but certainly the people I see they're gonna 835 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,800 they're gonna miss a forty foot or because of speed 836 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,800 more so than the green or the slope, so that 837 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,719 they do that more. But I think it was Jordan speed, 838 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,599 wasn't he He was kind of doing it more on 839 00:41:55,639 --> 00:41:58,760 the shorter putts, you know, the maybe the fifteen feet, 840 00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:01,119 and I mean for a while. So I think it 841 00:42:01,159 --> 00:42:02,440 just depends on the person, I guess. 842 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,599 Speaker 3: But yeah, every time I talk about this, people go, oh, 843 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,519 Jordan Speith did that for a while. Yeah. Yeah, And 844 00:42:08,599 --> 00:42:09,559 did you ever work with him? 845 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 2: No, No, actually I did not. I think Cameron. I'm 846 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,880 not too sure if his coach took the information because 847 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,239 he saw it we published it someplace, or maybe it 848 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,079 fit in you Later on he recognized that, you know what, 849 00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:26,920 we've kind of done a study that matched up with 850 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,760 what they were doing. But he certainly was for a 851 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:29,320 while doing that. 852 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:36,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, all right. So when you started doing 853 00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:39,519 this research, and this is what like now fifteen eighteen 854 00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:42,440 years old or even older, when you started doing the 855 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:43,800 instinct putting. 856 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 2: Mosh yeah, oh sorry, yeah, yeah, the instinct putting. Yeah, 857 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,039 I guess we did we did probably two thousand and 858 00:42:48,039 --> 00:42:48,920 six or something like that. 859 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:57,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, right. Since then, there's been a huge, let's 860 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,519 call it impact on the golf commun unity by zero 861 00:43:01,639 --> 00:43:06,480 torque putters, especially LAB Golf leading the way and the 862 00:43:06,519 --> 00:43:11,920 success they've been having. Yeah, more and more. Do you know, 863 00:43:12,039 --> 00:43:14,559 Sam han over it Lab Golf. 864 00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 2: I do not know. I mean it is. I mean 865 00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:20,519 it's They're pretty hot right now for sure. 866 00:43:20,599 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, the hottest. Have you seen a putter company explode 867 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,199 like that, or even any golf independent golf company explode 868 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:29,519 like that. 869 00:43:29,639 --> 00:43:31,679 Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think so, and I think it would. 870 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: Uh. 871 00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:36,199 Speaker 2: In fact, I was just virtually having a conversation today 872 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,320 with a guy who was asking me if I had 873 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,519 any remember the back in the day when Jack Nicklaus 874 00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:45,079 won Jack Nicholas won the eighty six Masters, and he 875 00:43:45,159 --> 00:43:48,800 had that really big aluminum putter that McGregor made for him, 876 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,320 and he was for some reason looking for that putter, 877 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,079 And we are talking virtually in terms of that was 878 00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:56,360 the hottest putter of the week after the Masters, for sure, 879 00:43:56,639 --> 00:44:00,199 and nobody could nobody had them. These guys have really 880 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,480 changed the way people are thinking about the putter. It's 881 00:44:02,519 --> 00:44:04,920 it's certainly going to be. It'll be around a lot 882 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,400 longer than the aluminumutter. Nicholas, I think so. But yeah, 883 00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:10,960 it's it's amazing really what they've done. Yeah, it's great. 884 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,840 It's exciting. Tact people wander by the putter. 885 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now you have companies going we 886 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,360 have a zero torq putter. We have a zero tork potter. 887 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,960 And then you do the test that Sam usually does 888 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,519 with the revealer and it's like, yeah, it's not really 889 00:44:25,559 --> 00:44:29,679 a zero torg putter. Have you tried using a lab putter? 890 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:30,920 Have you worked at all? 891 00:44:31,199 --> 00:44:34,519 Speaker 2: I have? I have messed around with it. Somebody one 892 00:44:34,559 --> 00:44:36,800 of our staff had one. We were out there trying 893 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,079 it and it felt great. I mean, as far as 894 00:44:39,519 --> 00:44:43,719 I think I'm probably a little bit to old school 895 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,119 and the head designs, but I mean as far as 896 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,119 it's still it's still had a great putt. And I 897 00:44:48,159 --> 00:44:50,320 would love to see I'd love to see somebody do 898 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,239 some research on and I'm sure they've got this someplace. 899 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,159 But you know, just how the ball comes off the 900 00:44:56,159 --> 00:45:00,280 face slightly different than not to pick on any but 901 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,840 the Scottie Cameron or something like that, is there all 902 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,119 that much difference? In how the ball comes off the face, 903 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,079 and it'd just be interesting to see that. But that 904 00:45:09,119 --> 00:45:10,880 feels good to me. I like the butter, nothing bad. 905 00:45:11,039 --> 00:45:14,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'm going to leave that scientific research to you. 906 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, I don't do equipment. I don't do equipment. No, 907 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,199 that's way too hard. Yeah. 908 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,079 Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting when I even when I started to 909 00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:26,280 play golf not long before. I mean I was in 910 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,599 my forties when I started playing, not long before I 911 00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:30,480 started doing the podcast, and you were on the show, 912 00:45:31,039 --> 00:45:33,840 and so I was really ignorant about so much of it. 913 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,599 And I'm not saying that I'm not ignorant still, That's 914 00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:41,239 why I keep asking questions. But to me, my I 915 00:45:41,559 --> 00:45:45,880 always went to a center shafted mallet putter. Yeah right, 916 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,199 And so when I first saw a LAB and it's like, 917 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,639 oh well, this is definitely for me. And the one 918 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,159 thing that I think that LAB users will agree on 919 00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,719 is that no matter where you hit it on the face, 920 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,000 you're pretty much going to get the line that you 921 00:46:02,679 --> 00:46:06,119 set up for. Yeah right, it's gonna you know, it 922 00:46:06,159 --> 00:46:08,440 maybe affect the speed a little bit if you hit 923 00:46:08,519 --> 00:46:10,559 on the toe or on the heel, but the lines 924 00:46:10,599 --> 00:46:11,440 trying to be true. 925 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,639 Speaker 2: Well, that's I mean as far as if you can, 926 00:46:17,119 --> 00:46:19,880 if you can create consistency in that, you can really, 927 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,559 at least to me in putting, if I have somebody 928 00:46:22,599 --> 00:46:25,719 that has the buttterface a degree open at impact every 929 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,599 time and it's more or less centered hit, I mean, 930 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,320 you can change it. But maybe that's not where you 931 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,000 got to put your attention. Maybe you just need to 932 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,519 worry about distance control or better reading of the greens 933 00:46:36,599 --> 00:46:38,599 or something like that. So yeah, if you can, if 934 00:46:38,639 --> 00:46:41,679 you can minimize the dispersion coming off the face by 935 00:46:42,199 --> 00:46:44,199 head design, it makes a lot of senses of being 936 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,639 very popular. And I'm sure they're going to sell a 937 00:46:46,639 --> 00:46:49,559 bunch and there'll probably be a lot of people trying 938 00:46:49,559 --> 00:46:52,400 to recreate some of the same ideas in the next 939 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,039 wave of products. But yeah, I mean it makes sense. 940 00:46:56,079 --> 00:46:58,639 It's just like anything else we we mess around with 941 00:46:58,639 --> 00:47:01,159 the Sam Putt lab in our school and the amount 942 00:47:01,159 --> 00:47:05,960 that people how much the starting direction is so different. 943 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,159 So with golfers, amateur golfers at least that there's just 944 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,679 no consistency in that, and if you can influence influence 945 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,599 that by that putter design, or if they tow it 946 00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:18,599 and heal it you still get the same start point. 947 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:19,480 Not too bad. 948 00:47:20,599 --> 00:47:24,320 Speaker 3: And that's part of why I'm feeling so strongly about 949 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,559 doing instinct putting now, is that I feel that if 950 00:47:28,559 --> 00:47:32,360 I'm looking at my target spot, not looking at the ball, 951 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,920 but where I want the ball to go or end 952 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:39,000 up or pass through. I mean, it depends on how 953 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,280 far the putt is and what the break is that 954 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:47,440 the lab putter is going to just obey my command. Basically, right, 955 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,480 I'm feeling comfortable. So then to me, it's all about 956 00:47:50,519 --> 00:47:54,920 the distance control. Always has but now looking at the target, 957 00:47:55,199 --> 00:47:59,119 my distance control is even better because I know where 958 00:47:59,119 --> 00:48:02,440 it's going better feel for it. And again you got 959 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,000 to trust it. You can't use any doubt. You can't 960 00:48:06,079 --> 00:48:10,559 like in their backstroke going is this right? I'm not, Yeah, 961 00:48:10,639 --> 00:48:11,840 You've really got to trust it. 962 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:13,719 Speaker 2: Well, I think one thing that I would I would 963 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,800 tell I'd say to golf professionals who when they when 964 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,800 they we talk about this, I'll say, the one thing, 965 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,119 the one flaw of the study, and we just didn't. 966 00:48:22,639 --> 00:48:25,280 We just didn't think about this. We should have had 967 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,480 cameras set up that looked at the putting strokes, the 968 00:48:28,519 --> 00:48:32,920 differences between the stroke without looking at the hole and 969 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:37,039 when they did look at the hole, because in hindsight, 970 00:48:37,119 --> 00:48:38,920 we were you know, Bob and I were standing back 971 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:40,559 there along. We had a lot of people helping us 972 00:48:40,559 --> 00:48:43,199 with the study, and a lot of a lot of 973 00:48:43,199 --> 00:48:45,960 the folks that were helping us with the study were 974 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,920 saying that they thought the strokes looked better when that 975 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,800 people were looking at the hole. Now, it was just anecdotal, 976 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,159 but it we started thinking about that, and then it was, well, 977 00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,920 you know, we're watching somebody and it doesn't seem like 978 00:49:00,079 --> 00:49:03,400 they were moving their body so much, because if you 979 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,239 move your body a bunch, it's probably pretty hard to 980 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,119 hit the putt solid when you're looking away. So maybe 981 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,559 it's simplified the strokes a little bit, and that could 982 00:49:12,599 --> 00:49:14,599 be an argument for why people should give it a try, 983 00:49:14,679 --> 00:49:17,599 just because it could improve your stroke slightly. But we 984 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,239 felt like that's what we saw happening. But we didn't 985 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,079 have any We didn't gather any data on how did 986 00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:24,639 the stroke change. We just were basing it on. 987 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:29,039 Speaker 3: Outcome so interesting and one of the huge elements of 988 00:49:29,079 --> 00:49:34,039 the instinct putting that I think it solves a big 989 00:49:34,079 --> 00:49:37,800 problem for so many golfers is that in their normal 990 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,199 stroke when they're looking at the ball instead of the target. 991 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,280 As soon as the ball leaves the putter face, their 992 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,639 head is turning to see where it's going, and that's 993 00:49:48,679 --> 00:49:52,679 going to impact and they don't really realize. Please correct 994 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,679 me if I'm wrong, but they don't realize that when 995 00:49:54,679 --> 00:49:57,159 they turn their head like that, their shoulders are now 996 00:49:57,199 --> 00:50:00,320 turning and it's going to affect their stroke. Sure, they'll 997 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:01,440 probably be offline. 998 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree, And I think the other for sure. 999 00:50:05,079 --> 00:50:06,920 And I think the other benefit of it is that 1000 00:50:08,599 --> 00:50:12,639 it's hard for people to catch really where the so 1001 00:50:12,679 --> 00:50:15,079 the ball gets struck. By the time you really see 1002 00:50:15,079 --> 00:50:17,119 where it is, it's probably five feet in front of 1003 00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:21,000 you already, and so they do miss that first five 1004 00:50:21,079 --> 00:50:25,199 feet of potential break or starting direction. So I think 1005 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,199 some of the benefits of it as well is that 1006 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,159 you're looking at the hole, but you've already got a 1007 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,440 perfectly You've got a good sense of where the ball 1008 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,559 is starting out on your line. I think sometimes it's 1009 00:50:34,599 --> 00:50:36,960 hard to see the starting point on your line when 1010 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,719 your head's down. Then trying to catch it five feet 1011 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,599 off the face, you missed thatily, So that's kind of 1012 00:50:42,599 --> 00:50:44,119 one of the things I like about it too. 1013 00:50:44,639 --> 00:50:48,880 Speaker 3: Right, is that your head has already turned, it's already there. Yeah, 1014 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:50,880 and it makes it and it makes a difference. It 1015 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:52,440 really does make a difference. 1016 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you like it. I'm glad you're having 1017 00:50:55,159 --> 00:50:56,239 some success with It's great. 1018 00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:00,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's why I'm so glad that you after 1019 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:01,920 I reached out to you to have you come back 1020 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,480 on that, you did respond to because this has been 1021 00:51:04,599 --> 00:51:07,599 everything i'd hoped it would be. In our conversation. I 1022 00:51:07,639 --> 00:51:11,559 got all the information and I now have more confidence 1023 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,599 in the idea of looking at the hall when I'm putting, 1024 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,159 and I highly recommend. Now there is a new version 1025 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,639 of the book, right, it's a revised version. Tell me 1026 00:51:21,639 --> 00:51:23,119 about that real quickly. Yeah. 1027 00:51:23,199 --> 00:51:26,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we just we wanted to update the information 1028 00:51:26,159 --> 00:51:28,079 and just kind of add a few more things to it. 1029 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,880 I think it's you know, it's just one of those things, 1030 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,840 like anything, information changes over the years, and we just 1031 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:39,440 tried to update some of the information and it's I 1032 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,239 think it's still still a good read. It's a little 1033 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,599 bit less dry than our evidence based golf book, but 1034 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,039 you know, off is pretty much straightforward with here study 1035 00:51:47,039 --> 00:51:49,480 one and here's what we found, you know, so which 1036 00:51:49,679 --> 00:51:55,280 again I think I think knowledge is information for the 1037 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,360 amateur golfer is not a bad thing. Having a better 1038 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,400 you know, a good sense of what goes on, whether 1039 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,840 it's ballflight or the putting stroke, the new information that's 1040 00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,239 coming out and putting, or even the ball flight laws 1041 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,159 with all the new technology, all that stuff is very 1042 00:52:09,199 --> 00:52:12,000 helpful for golfers. So if you like reading a book, 1043 00:52:12,039 --> 00:52:13,920 it's not a bad one, I suppose no. 1044 00:52:14,079 --> 00:52:19,079 Speaker 3: And again it's called instinct putting revisited. Look where you 1045 00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:22,320 want to put the ball Advised edition The Breakthrough Science 1046 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:28,400 based on Target Vision Putting Technique a great read, fascinating read. 1047 00:52:28,599 --> 00:52:32,519 It's really going to spark your imagination. And at the 1048 00:52:32,679 --> 00:52:36,119 very least, do it while you're practicing your putting, don't, 1049 00:52:36,199 --> 00:52:39,480 you know. Don't start with it on the course, do that. 1050 00:52:40,679 --> 00:52:43,559 Definitely practice with it a while before you take it 1051 00:52:43,599 --> 00:52:46,480 out there, because you have to trust it, and you 1052 00:52:46,559 --> 00:52:53,159 do it. Eric Alpinfels from Pinehurst, again, I want to 1053 00:52:53,159 --> 00:52:55,679 thank you so much for coming back on the show 1054 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,320 and for your longtime friendship with Golf Smarter. Appreciate it. 1055 00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:01,519 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's always it's great to see. 1056 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:03,840 It's hard to believe it's been that long. So thank 1057 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,599 you so much and congratulations on all your success is great. 1058 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,599 What you're doing is great for for golfers across the board, 1059 00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:18,280 so professionals as well as amateurs. H