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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 5: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gaesy Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker Dck.
Speaker 5: Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 6: Hello, this is your host Dan Zupaski for the program
Speaker 6: True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History
Speaker 6: and the authors that have written about them. On November thirtieth,
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty nine, in Florida, a man was shot four
Speaker 6: times by a naked, heartfaced blonde prostitute. He suffered a slow,
Speaker 6: agonizing death while the woman stripped him of his valuables
Speaker 6: and drove his Cadillac back to the motel where her
Speaker 6: lesbian lover was waiting. In nineteen ninety her killing spree
Speaker 6: kicked into high gear, with three men slain in three weeks.
Speaker 6: Of the six of seven male victims whose bodies were found,
Speaker 6: some were nude, all had been robbed and shot dead.
Speaker 6: In January nineteen ninety one, pawnshop records led to the
Speaker 6: arrest of Aileen Carol Warnos a k A. Lee an abusive,
Speaker 6: alcoholic man hater with a murderous hair trigger temper. Tired
Speaker 6: of turning twenty Duller tricks and often being abused, Warnos
Speaker 6: decided to rob her customers of everything they had, including
Speaker 6: their lives. Her arrest and trial prompted a world wide
Speaker 6: media frenzy and even an Academy Award winning movie Monster.
Speaker 6: In the end, Warnos received six separate death sentences. Lethal
Speaker 6: Intent is the definitive account of a killer who confounded
Speaker 6: the profiling exists, forever changing their concepts of the crimes
Speaker 6: of which a woman is capable. My guest today is
Speaker 6: journalist and author Sue Russell, discussing her true crime classic
Speaker 6: lethal Intent, the shocking true story of one of America's
Speaker 6: most notorious female serial killers. Welcome to the program, Sue Russell,
Speaker 6: and thank you for agreeing to this interview.
Speaker 4: Good morning, Dan, Thank you for having me on the show.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much. It's my pleasure and I'm
Speaker 6: sure our audiences as well. Oh yeah, I'm sure, I'm certain. Now.
Speaker 6: First off, this is a question that's always intrigues me
Speaker 6: and I always ask it of all guests. You are
Speaker 6: give you a little bit of a background to our audience.
Speaker 6: You're an internationally syndicated journalist and author, a past editor
Speaker 6: of Women Magazine, a Woman Magazine, and a regular contributor
Speaker 6: to various British and US publications. You've written about the
Speaker 6: beauty industry and co authored The Star Mothers The Moms
Speaker 6: Behind the Celebrities. Now, what was it about the Alien
Speaker 6: Warno's case? Because you've written about so many diverse cases,
Speaker 6: what was it about the Alien Warno's case specifically that
Speaker 6: compelled you to write not only Lethal Intent but also
Speaker 6: Damsel of Death, both about Alien Warnos. What was it
Speaker 6: about Alien Warnos and her case that interested you so much?
Speaker 4: Well, I'd written a lot of crime stories and features
Speaker 4: on related issues about crime, and I was dying to
Speaker 4: write a true crime book No pun intended. And the
Speaker 4: minute I heard about Eileen, of course my is pricked
Speaker 4: up because it was such an extraordinary case. It was
Speaker 4: such an amazing piece of news that was coming across
Speaker 4: the wise, this woman being arrested with all these casualties
Speaker 4: of her at the end of her twenty two caliber
Speaker 4: gan and it was in modern day times unprecedented and
Speaker 4: defied the definitions of a serial killer, you know, as
Speaker 4: outlined by the FBI. So it just seemed crazy not
Speaker 4: to just immediately jump up and say, Okay, this is
Speaker 4: the one I have to write this book. I felt
Speaker 4: very much interested in women's violence. I'd written about women
Speaker 4: as victims of violence, and this was just too good
Speaker 4: to pass up in terms of being such a fascinating story.
Speaker 6: Dan, Right now, I'm a little bit confused, and maybe
Speaker 6: you can tell our audience. You wrote Damsel of Death
Speaker 6: and in also Lethal Intent. Are they two separate books.
Speaker 4: I'm glad you asked that, because it does confuse people somewhat.
Speaker 4: What happened was I wrote Damsel of Death first for
Speaker 4: England and Australia. As you may be able to tell,
Speaker 4: I don't know if I have any of my accent left.
Speaker 4: I am a natives of Londoner, and so the book
Speaker 4: came out over there first, and due to various publishing
Speaker 4: industry hiccups, it didn't come out here until, you know,
Speaker 4: after two thousand what was it two thousand and two,
Speaker 4: I think right, And at that point they put another
Speaker 4: title on it. It was exactly the same book, but
Speaker 4: I updated it with her ten years on death row
Speaker 4: at the end. So lethal Intent is definitely the one
Speaker 4: if anyone's interested in getting hold of the book, because
Speaker 4: it does go right up to, you know, the point
Speaker 4: of her execution.
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, that's that clarifies that I was interested to
Speaker 6: know about that. It would seem unusual that you would
Speaker 6: write two separate books about the same thing. Now I
Speaker 6: understand that you've spent some two years researching the life
Speaker 6: of Alien Warnos. It is a fascinating story just on
Speaker 6: its own. Let's go back. What was Alien Warno's early
Speaker 6: life like growing up in Troy, Michigan, just outside of
Speaker 6: the city of Detroit.
Speaker 4: Right, Just to clarify, I didn't spend two years researching it.
Speaker 4: I spent two years researching and writing it. I don't
Speaker 4: want people to think I'm the slowest person in the
Speaker 4: world on hemisphere. Eileen was born to Diane Warnoff, who
Speaker 4: was briefly married to Leo Pittman. They were both very
Speaker 4: young and this was in Troy, Michigan, And basically what
Speaker 4: happened is, first there was the brother, Keith, who's about
Speaker 4: eleven months older than Eileen, and then Eileen was born,
Speaker 4: by which time Leo Pittman had exited the picture, and
Speaker 4: within the first two years of Eileen's life, her mother
Speaker 4: abandoned her twice, dumping her and Keith on the grandparents,
Speaker 4: Brita and Lowry Warnoff vote in the Troy, Michigan area
Speaker 4: there and so she left the babies with the grandparents
Speaker 4: once and then she came back and tried to make
Speaker 4: a go of it, but that didn't work, and so
Speaker 4: she took off twice. So for anyone who believes, you know,
Speaker 4: the abandonment during that very early formative stage is a
Speaker 4: powerful influence on a person's future, then I think you
Speaker 4: could say that Eileen had a double dose of it.
Speaker 4: The grandparents then raised Eileen and Keith as their own
Speaker 4: and alongside their own children Diane's brothers, Barry and Laurie,
Speaker 4: so it was Barry and Laurie and Eileen and Keith
Speaker 4: as if they were all siblings, although in fact Barry
Speaker 4: and Laurie were aunt and uncle to Eileen and Keith.
Speaker 4: Her prime making sense, Yeah, yeah, So it was a
Speaker 4: rough childhood. It was a hard scrabble Michigan life. But
Speaker 4: Lurie warn us Lowry, I'm sorry, the father, we called
Speaker 4: him Lowry to try to distinguish from Lourie the daughter,
Speaker 4: but Lowry warn Us was generally recognized in the neighborhood
Speaker 4: as a mean man, and neighbors would hear the kids
Speaker 4: getting a whipping from across the backyards and what have you,
Speaker 4: and here screaming and carrying on. The shades were always drawn.
Speaker 4: They were a very private family. It was one of
Speaker 4: those cases of what is going on behind closed doors,
Speaker 4: and school kids who went to school with her would
Speaker 4: always say, or said when I interviewed them years later
Speaker 4: that they always assumed that bad things were happening and
Speaker 4: it was not a happy place to be living, but
Speaker 4: they kept all of it very much hidden. And grandmother
Speaker 4: Brita was also later was revealed an alcoholic and was
Speaker 4: drinking heavily behind closed doors too.
Speaker 7: So you've got.
Speaker 4: Two drinking grandparents, and you've got the violence from the
Speaker 4: grandfather who would take a belt to the kids, especially Eileen,
Speaker 4: who was always in trouble with them, and you know,
Speaker 4: he'd pull down their jeans or whatever and just take
Speaker 4: the leather belt to them and actually make Eileen polish
Speaker 4: it up before she got a whipping. So it was
Speaker 4: a whole procedure and I'm sure had a bad effect
Speaker 4: on her outlook and life in general. You know, it
Speaker 4: was child abuse, certainly would be considered child abuse today.
Speaker 4: In those days, it was not so terribly unusual, or
Speaker 4: at least it was a perhaps more violent version of
Speaker 4: what's not so terribly unusual. It wasn't unusual to hit
Speaker 4: your kids back then.
Speaker 6: Now when you talk about effect, certainly in a negative
Speaker 6: effect in this case, as well as we will reveal
Speaker 6: in this interview that this is an exceptional case for
Speaker 6: all the factors that led to her shaping her eventual
Speaker 6: character and eventual behavior. And you talk about the parents,
Speaker 6: and were Aileen and Keith told about who their parents
Speaker 6: actually were or what anything about their actual real parents?
Speaker 6: And when were they told? At what age were they
Speaker 6: told given this actual information the real identity of the
Speaker 6: actual parents.
Speaker 4: Aileen was about twelve years old, and she was crushed,
Speaker 4: completely crushed. She was in disbelief, basically. And what is
Speaker 4: so interesting to me, or was you know, initially so
Speaker 4: stunningly interesting to me, Dan, was that when I began
Speaker 4: looking into Leo Pittman's background birth father, not only was
Speaker 4: he a petty criminal and stole cars and things like that,
Speaker 4: but when I eventually got his records from the FBI
Speaker 4: and learned about what he had done. A bit later on,
Speaker 4: he had abducted a child into his car. He'd lurked
Speaker 4: outside a schoolyard and he'd taken this little girl, I
Speaker 4: think she was maybe seven, and he'd driven her across
Speaker 4: state lines and he had sexually abused her, and he
Speaker 4: then put her in the car and he drove her
Speaker 4: back across and dropped her off outside the school. Now,
Speaker 4: because she'd gone across state lines, albeit marginally, it became
Speaker 4: a federal offense. And the father of Eileen also committed
Speaker 4: a capital crime. He too faced the death penalty like
Speaker 4: his daughter, and they never met and he didn't get
Speaker 4: the death penalty, and ultimately he hanged himself in prison.
Speaker 4: But I just find that so eerie and uncanny, a coincidence,
Speaker 4: or maybe more than a coincidence, that their lives took
Speaker 4: these turns. And the child, who was instrumental in the
Speaker 4: victim in putting Leo Pittman behind bars, had to go
Speaker 4: into court to testify that this was the man who'd
Speaker 4: abducted and raped her. And when she was shown the
Speaker 4: fabric from the seat of his car, which was a
Speaker 4: distinctive check pattern. She broke out in hives in front
Speaker 4: of the whole courtroom so everyone could see this immediate
Speaker 4: physical reaction. She had justice seeing the car seat material
Speaker 4: from Leo Pittman's car. But Leo tried to play the
Speaker 4: system too, saying he was mentally ill. He spent time
Speaker 4: in the mental hospital, he spent time in the prison.
Speaker 4: Part tried to work the system, and he did, in
Speaker 4: fact hang himself.
Speaker 6: It's very interesting when you talk about the environmental the
Speaker 6: effect of the environment on a future killer of this
Speaker 6: case is very I would think a textbook case in
Speaker 6: terms of what not to do.
Speaker 4: And yes, I mean I always likened it to stacking
Speaker 4: up Domino's, you know, standing them up on their end
Speaker 4: in a long row before they all began to tip
Speaker 4: over and they suddenly reached the tipping point. It was
Speaker 4: like everything that was a part of her life was
Speaker 4: a strike against her. She had some hearing difficulties which
Speaker 4: manifested themselves as learning difficulties. In fact, she just needed
Speaker 4: a hearing aid, and the grandmother sort of refused to
Speaker 4: accept this and didn't get her.
Speaker 7: The necessary help and kind of dismissed it.
Speaker 4: When teachers noted this kind of thing, and one teacher
Speaker 4: actually wrote a report saying something, this girl is going
Speaker 4: to I've forgotten the wording. It's been so long, I'm sorry,
Speaker 4: but you know, more or less like this girl is going,
Speaker 4: you know, to end up in major trouble if somebody
Speaker 4: doesn't intervene. And of course nobody did. But eventually those
Speaker 4: dominoes all kind of cumulatively, the weight of them just
Speaker 4: tipped over. And it almost feels inevitable when you look
Speaker 4: at the fact she was taking money for sex when
Speaker 4: she was age eleven or twelve. Boys who were in
Speaker 4: the neighborhood at that time and who are now men
Speaker 4: testified to testify, but they told me in interviews that
Speaker 4: they'd had sex with her. When she was eleven, she
Speaker 4: had sex with her brother. She took money for sex.
Speaker 4: She would charge thirty five cents or a packet of cigarettes.
Speaker 4: She was called the cigarette pig, the cigarette bandit.
Speaker 7: These kids had.
Speaker 4: A fort and they would have makeout sessions, and nobody
Speaker 4: wanted to kiss Eileen.
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Speaker 4: Can you imagine, you know, the rejection and the pain
Speaker 4: that was building, and the rage that was building in
Speaker 4: the school through adolescens. And she would use this money
Speaker 4: that she got from sex also to party with her friends.
Speaker 7: She's so badly.
Speaker 4: Wanted friends, and she so badly wanted to build these
Speaker 4: friendships that she saw all around her, but that seemed
Speaker 4: to elude her, and so she'd throw parties and what
Speaker 4: have you. But the trouble was she had this explosive temper,
Speaker 4: and as I write about in Lethal Intent, basically she
Speaker 4: sabotaged every friendship she had because other kids were afraid
Speaker 4: of Eileen. She would have this extraordinary explosion from time
Speaker 4: to time, much to the embarrassment of sistersh Aunt Laurie,
Speaker 4: who really tried to do to stand up for Eileen,
Speaker 4: but at times it became impossible and unbearable.
Speaker 7: Barrier was a bit older and.
Speaker 4: Was out of the house, so Laurie was more in
Speaker 4: the sick of it. But it was very It was
Speaker 4: very tough because Eileen clearly longed for these connections, but
Speaker 4: just was unable to rain in this sort of these
Speaker 4: demons inside her long enough to sustains.
Speaker 6: What I found was interesting too in continuum with just
Speaker 6: with her environment. You also, or at least did she
Speaker 6: had said and I don't know if this was corroborated.
Speaker 6: You can tell us who actually said this and if
Speaker 6: there was any any corroboration of this he'd said that.
Speaker 6: I think Alien had said that. Her father said she
Speaker 6: was wicked, evil, worthless, should never have been born, and
Speaker 6: she was not worthy of the air that she breathed. Yeah,
Speaker 6: was that proven that those kind of statements came from
Speaker 6: her adopted father.
Speaker 4: I think that was a mixture of what was told
Speaker 4: by close family friends, by Eileen herself. Laurie, the sister aunt,
Speaker 4: was a little reticent when it came to painting her
Speaker 4: father with this nasty, nasty brush that everybody else did.
Speaker 4: I think she was rather in denial, but she did
Speaker 4: admit that, yes we got whippings, and yes, you know
Speaker 4: he did shout at Eileen and Keith.
Speaker 7: They were always in trouble.
Speaker 4: So it was a combination of people, including Eileen.
Speaker 7: Herself, who.
Speaker 4: Talked about this verbal abuse which was ongoing for a
Speaker 4: long time and obviously very destructive.
Speaker 6: You also talk about that Aleen Lee Wernos also developed
Speaker 6: a liking for drugs and alcohol. Yes, and how did
Speaker 6: this play into her eventual acceleration and her behavior, her
Speaker 6: behavior getting worse eventually? What was the role of alcohol
Speaker 6: and drugs in that.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, there were several elements running concurrently. She
Speaker 4: was getting into so much trouble. I mean, she got
Speaker 4: pregnant when she was fourteen and went into a home
Speaker 4: and gave birth and the baby was taken away from
Speaker 4: her when she was just past fifteen, fifteenth birthday. So
Speaker 4: we have the drinking and the drugs. We have her
Speaker 4: being essentially ostracized from then on by Lowry, who basically
Speaker 4: kicked her out of the house more than once. She
Speaker 4: did go back, but eventually she didn't go back and
Speaker 4: she lived in cars, in cambers, in people's driveways. She
Speaker 4: lived it rough, and needless to say, I am quite
Speaker 4: certain that drugs and alcohol played quite a role in
Speaker 4: the road she then took because she basically never really
Speaker 4: pursued any kind of jobs or she lived rough. She
Speaker 4: prostituted herself. And I've always believed Eileen always denied that
Speaker 4: she did drugs in the later part of her life.
Speaker 4: And certainly I know that when she was with her
Speaker 4: lover Tyree More, they would, you know, knock off a
Speaker 4: forty eight pack of beer in an evening, But Eileen
Speaker 4: always denied the drugs. Now, the drugs were very prevalent
Speaker 4: during the teenage years, and unless someone actually actively goes
Speaker 4: into AA and says I'm going to clean up my
Speaker 4: act and gives up the drugs, you know, living the
Speaker 4: life she did, the prostitution, the living on the streets,
Speaker 4: the homeless, the going from one place to another, I
Speaker 4: personally find it very hard to believe and always did
Speaker 4: that she didn't continue to do drugs. She had certain
Speaker 4: things that to her were not acceptable. She would admit
Speaker 4: to the drinking, and I believe she did the drugs
Speaker 4: and didn't admit to them in much the same way
Speaker 4: that she had no problem admitting to having killed the men,
Speaker 4: but she had a problem saying she'd been sexually abused.
Speaker 4: In her mind, one was shameful, the other was not.
Speaker 4: And I think that the drugs were there, that would
Speaker 4: be my you know, it can only be a guest
Speaker 4: because she would never confirm it. But you know, people
Speaker 4: pay for sex with drugs, as you know. And she
Speaker 4: was living a very rough life for a very long time.
Speaker 6: Right now, you mentioned her lover, her lesbian lover, Tyra
Speaker 6: or Tyre and Tyra Moore. Maybe can tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about Tyra and the event that intersected these
Speaker 6: two people's lives forever, where they met, how they met,
Speaker 6: and how they became a couple, and tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about Tyra Moore forst well, Tira.
Speaker 4: Was actually.
Speaker 7: The more industrious of the two. She did have a.
Speaker 4: Definite liking for partying and drinking beer and you know,
Speaker 4: generally getting wasted regularly. However, she did hold down jobs.
Speaker 4: She was a hotel maid and you know, various other
Speaker 4: jobs that she had. Periods of time she would go
Speaker 4: off to work and leave Iileen. Eileen would then take
Speaker 4: off up the highway with her what the police would call,
Speaker 4: and you know, I guess I would too, give them
Speaker 4: what was in it her kill bag, which was a
Speaker 4: bottle of Windex and her gun, and she would go
Speaker 4: off hooking. And you know, there's some dispute really about
Speaker 4: how much was openly told to Tyra at what point.
Speaker 4: There's no doubt that tyrone knew she was prostituting herself,
Speaker 4: but Tira was the type who really liked the end
Speaker 4: product and didn't want to rock the boat too much.
Speaker 4: It was easier for her to turn a blind eye and.
Speaker 7: Just take the.
Speaker 4: Rewards, as it were, of what came of Aileen's lifestyle.
Speaker 4: They met in a bar and they began drinking and
Speaker 4: they went home together. At the time, Tyrie was living
Speaker 4: with Cammy Green, a friend of her, and Cammy's.
Speaker 7: Husband and children.
Speaker 4: And they woke up one morning and Tyria had a
Speaker 4: woman in her room, and Cammy tried to go in
Speaker 4: at some point and she was told no, no, get away.
Speaker 4: And basically they spent the weekend together, locked up together
Speaker 4: in that room, coming out just occasionally to get more
Speaker 4: alcohol or whatever. However, Dan, I must tell you that
Speaker 4: contrary to what everybody else believes. I do not believe
Speaker 4: that Eileen was a lesbian. I believe that Eileen I
Speaker 4: interviewed enough former boyfriends and people with whom she had
Speaker 4: sex where there was no money exchanged. Men I'm talking about.
Speaker 4: I believe with Eileen Tyra, Tyrea. I call her Tyria,
Speaker 4: you call her Tira, Many people call her Tira. Taria
Speaker 4: was an emotional prop It was what Eileen so badly,
Speaker 4: badly craved, that emotional connection. Their sex life dropped off
Speaker 4: pretty quickly, and although Eileen did have one other to
Speaker 4: our knowledge, lesbian affair, basically she was often in love
Speaker 4: with men and often had sex with men. So I've
Speaker 4: always gone against this man hating lesbian label always given
Speaker 4: to her by the press. I don't believe that was
Speaker 4: the case. I don't believe she was a lesbian. She
Speaker 4: was bisexual perhaps, but she certainly enjoyed sex with men
Speaker 4: and instigated it when she didn't have to.
Speaker 6: Yes, she was the act of love. Somebody actually wanting
Speaker 6: her seemed to be the main compulsion and driving her life. Yeah,
Speaker 6: regardless of who it was.
Speaker 7: Yes.
Speaker 4: Now, when they lived in a trailer together, Eileen put.
Speaker 7: Tinfoil. What do you call it?
Speaker 4: Aluminum foil and they call it in the state's aluminium
Speaker 4: foil in England at the windows of the trailer. And
Speaker 4: basically she didn't want Tyria doing anything. She preferred her
Speaker 4: to be at home, waiting for her and available to
Speaker 4: her at all tims. She was quite controlling in that regard,
Speaker 4: and you know, she liked to keep very close tabs
Speaker 4: on her and overwriting the book and working a very complex,
Speaker 4: intricate timeline. I did eventually come to my own conclusion
Speaker 4: about what the effort I would call was the precipitating
Speaker 4: event that preceded each of these murders, and it was
Speaker 4: very closely tied into her borderline personality. And the best
Speaker 4: way I can describe borderline personality is with the title
Speaker 4: of a book on the condition, which is called I
Speaker 4: Hate you, Don't Leave me, or something like that. But
Speaker 4: in other words, it's the dichotomy between the anger and
Speaker 4: the wanting someone to stay with you, but then also
Speaker 4: telling them that you hate them, and just black and
Speaker 4: white kind of behavior. So where was I going with
Speaker 4: all that down? So I think she, you know, she
Speaker 4: had this borderline personality disorder, and I do believe that
Speaker 4: a big part of borderline personality is a massive fear
Speaker 4: of abandonment. It's just like a life ruling fear. And
Speaker 4: she so lived in fear of abandonment. She'd been abandoned
Speaker 4: so many times, let's face it, and let down so
Speaker 4: many times. So when she found.
Speaker 7: Tyria and Tyria.
Speaker 4: Stuck with her, even after Tyrea knew she'd committed the
Speaker 4: first murder, of course, this was incredibly powerful for her
Speaker 4: and it meant everything to her certainly.
Speaker 6: Now you talked about the precipitating event, Well, let's get
Speaker 6: to that. They are in Daytona Beach, they're in Florida together.
Speaker 6: At some point, Lee Aileen Warnos goes from robbing her
Speaker 6: clients or taking money from her clients to killing them.
Speaker 6: What you talked about a precipitating event. Is there a
Speaker 6: precipitating event that caused this that you found out? You discovered?
Speaker 6: Was that moment, that reason, that event that precipitated her
Speaker 6: first murder?
Speaker 7: Well?
Speaker 4: I believe so. And of course remember that although she
Speaker 4: confessed to seven murders and was convicted of six, we
Speaker 4: don't one hundred, so that those were her only murders.
Speaker 4: I personally think she may have witnessed another murder at
Speaker 4: a different time in her life, which you know is
Speaker 4: a bit convoluted, so I won't go into it right
Speaker 4: here and now. But Thanksgiving nineteen eighty nine, Ty had
Speaker 4: brought home a girl called Sandy for Thanksgiving dinner from
Speaker 4: who was a coworker of hers at the hotel. And
Speaker 4: she was a very pretty blonde, straight girl, and I
Speaker 4: interviewed her, you know, and Thanksgiving dinner was an extremely
Speaker 4: awkward event, Eileen. They had basically TV dinner style Thanksgiving dinners.
Speaker 4: Eileen would not eat in front of the other two
Speaker 4: and she clearly was very very jealous of Sandy, and
Speaker 4: within when Thanksgiving I don't know, but you know, within
Speaker 4: two days after this event, which I think rocked her
Speaker 4: world because she really thought TI was in love with Sandy,
Speaker 4: and although she knew Sandy had a husband, I believe
Speaker 4: it was at that point or certainly you know, living boyfriend,
Speaker 4: this didn't cut it with Eileen. She was terribly badly
Speaker 4: affected by the presence of this pretty young blonde thing,
Speaker 4: you know, and felt very very threatened. So I believe
Speaker 4: that was the trigger for the first one, and the
Speaker 4: fact that she knew she also somehow established that these
Speaker 4: men had a certain amount of cash on them. You know,
Speaker 4: I e more than twenty dollars, because with one exception,
Speaker 4: the seven men had several hundred dollars on them in cash,
Speaker 4: which in her world was quite a lot of money.
Speaker 4: And I think that she somehow established that through conversation
Speaker 4: with them, and there that played into her targeting certain men.
Speaker 4: But to reinforce what I was saying about, you know
Speaker 4: why she killed? And when when Ty's sister came down
Speaker 4: from Ohio for a vacation with them, Eileen killed. I
Speaker 4: think it was three men in six weeks.
Speaker 7: I believe I have that right.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 7: Three weeks.
Speaker 4: I don't know because the sister went home early. But anyway,
Speaker 4: there was a terrible clash. The sister wanted Ty to
Speaker 4: move back up to Ohio, and during that period of time,
Speaker 4: three men died in very short order, and Eileen would
Speaker 4: come home waving the dollar bills, you.
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Speaker 4: Undred dollar bills or whatever, and would say, look what I have.
Speaker 4: You know I've got all this money. We can party.
Speaker 4: We can go to sea World. Wee can this week
Speaker 4: and that, and she was desperately afraid that the tie
Speaker 4: was going to go home to Ohio with a sister. Again,
Speaker 4: the abandonment issue kicked in, and I believe that she
Speaker 4: robbed to get the money, which she felt, as it
Speaker 4: had done all her life, she would be able to
Speaker 4: avoid being abandoned. By having money, she'd be able to
Speaker 4: buy herself company, which is really what she did with
Speaker 4: those kids as a teenager with all the money in
Speaker 4: the parties, and again with Tye by coming home with
Speaker 4: this money, which Tye frankly was drawn in by, and
Speaker 4: so it went on. But that's the most dramatic example.
Speaker 4: Is you know why three men were killed in such
Speaker 4: a short space of time and when the sister was visiting,
Speaker 4: And I really believe it was all tied into that
Speaker 4: fear of abandonment, and she was very methodical about it.
Speaker 4: And this is why I took issue with the film Monster.
Speaker 7: Great issue. In fact, I wrote a.
Speaker 4: Piece for the Washington Post about the film because in
Speaker 4: the film, which I don't know if you've seen it, Dan,
Speaker 4: but she's brutally raped and she kills her attacker to
Speaker 4: save her own life. Well, that's actually not what happened,
Speaker 4: and it's a very different story, and it's the wrong story,
Speaker 4: and you're not learning anything about Eileen Warnos by believing
Speaker 4: that to be the story, because she wasn't a woman
Speaker 4: who killed to save her own life during a rape.
Speaker 4: That first victim, Richard Mallory, was found sitting behind the
Speaker 4: wheel of his car fully closed. Something had set her off,
Speaker 4: for sure, but you know, and it wasn't. When Aileen
Speaker 4: was first arrested, she didn't come out with a lot
Speaker 4: of the stuff that came out at her trial later
Speaker 4: about how Richard.
Speaker 7: Mallory had.
Speaker 4: Raped her in every which way possible, anally raped her
Speaker 4: and what have you, tied her to the steering wheel
Speaker 4: with electrical cables, inserted rubbing alcohol into her bodily orifices.
Speaker 4: When the murder had taken place, Eileen took the car,
Speaker 4: as you know. But the other thing is before she left,
Speaker 4: she took Mallory and she wrapped him in a bit
Speaker 4: of old carpet that was lying out there in the
Speaker 4: woods and hid his body. Now on his pockets were
Speaker 4: turned inside out, so she'd gone through his pockets to
Speaker 4: see what else he had on him. Now, to me,
Speaker 4: if you're being brutally raped and you are trying to
Speaker 4: save your own life, do you really stop to, you know,
Speaker 4: go through the man's pockets and once you've killed him
Speaker 4: and cover his body with a rug, you'd run, you'd run.
Speaker 4: She did run eventually, when she'd taken care of all this,
Speaker 4: you know, hiding the body, she took the car and
Speaker 4: then she also separately hid what else was in the car,
Speaker 4: which was vodka and orange juice glasses, what have you.
Speaker 4: But there was no rubbing our alcohol, there were no
Speaker 4: electrical ties. The other evidence was never there, and she
Speaker 4: didn't come out with this story until she got on
Speaker 4: the witness stand. You know, she'd had a long time
Speaker 4: to think about what her story.
Speaker 7: Was going to be.
Speaker 4: But in actual fact, the evidence is that the first
Speaker 4: bullet went into Richard Mallory from the passenger seat. He
Speaker 4: was fully dressed behind the steering wheel. You will admit
Speaker 4: that paints a very different picture from Monster and it's
Speaker 4: a very different Eileen's if you're trying to understand her
Speaker 4: and why she committed her crimes, it's a very different Eileen.
Speaker 4: If the first murder was triggered by her trying to
Speaker 4: save her own life during a rape that's a very
Speaker 4: different Eileen from an Eileen who robbed and killed men.
Speaker 4: So there would be no witnesses, which she admitted with
Speaker 4: the case.
Speaker 6: So your issue with the movie is as well, that
Speaker 6: there would be no possible way of misinterpreting the information
Speaker 6: and the evidence that they came out at trial, and
Speaker 6: that was published in books like yourself, your book.
Speaker 4: What they did Dan was to say it was based
Speaker 4: on the true story.
Speaker 7: A true story.
Speaker 4: Now to me, if you're going to change the core
Speaker 4: of who Eileen Warnoff is, because she is quite an
Speaker 4: important figure in terms of the crime world and what
Speaker 4: we learn about the criminal mind, how these crimes are committed,
Speaker 4: and why then why not change her name in the
Speaker 4: film too. There was another critical difference, which was that
Speaker 4: Tyria was very much aware of what was going on.
Speaker 4: She was in the sharing in the spoils of these robberies.
Speaker 4: She was taking the men's watches and jackets and things
Speaker 4: that Eileen would bring home and wearing.
Speaker 7: Them and what have you.
Speaker 4: In the movie, they painted her the Christina Ricci character
Speaker 4: as this little innocent who.
Speaker 7: Knew nothing about what was going on.
Speaker 4: Well, that wasn't true. There was also a lot made
Speaker 4: of Tye trying to get away from Aileen once she
Speaker 4: became afraid of her. But right before the last murder,
Speaker 4: that you know, before the arrest, Tie had gone to
Speaker 4: Ohio for Thanksgiving to the family and she'd come back. Now,
Speaker 4: if she was afraid for her life, why did she
Speaker 4: get on the bus and come back?
Speaker 6: Certainly? Certainly?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So these are core differences, don't.
Speaker 5: You see those?
Speaker 6: Those are Yeah, Like you say, there is the truth
Speaker 6: and then there's there's fiction. And so the movie is fiction.
Speaker 4: It's not alone, of course, in being based on a
Speaker 4: true story and then taking massive liberties.
Speaker 7: With the real story.
Speaker 4: The trouble is the public at large. You know, see
Speaker 4: the movie, and I've done it myself, God knows many times,
Speaker 4: you know, whether it was you know, a film about
Speaker 4: Nixon or Kennedy or whatever. You take it at its
Speaker 4: face value. And that's what many people have done with Eileen.
Speaker 4: But what has been the fallout from all this down
Speaker 4: is that the press, and by that I mean the
Speaker 4: newspapers from day one began referring to her victims as
Speaker 4: her John's and painting them as you.
Speaker 7: Know, rapists who brutalized her.
Speaker 4: Now, in actual fact, you know, man two men I
Speaker 4: think had closing off and that of course does indicate
Speaker 4: a sexual transaction. But we also know because of men
Speaker 4: who testified and wo and men I interviewed, that Eileen
Speaker 4: traveled with a photograph of children and she would flag
Speaker 4: down cars and she would say, I need to get
Speaker 4: back to my hotel. My children are there, they're hungry.
Speaker 4: You know, I've got to get back. Can you give
Speaker 4: me a ride? And I think it's fair to say
Speaker 4: that some of these men actually were good Samaritans and
Speaker 4: gave her a ride. You know, it's not fair to
Speaker 4: blanketly attack the victims. Imagine if the boot were on
Speaker 4: the other foot. Imagine if these victims were women killed
Speaker 4: by a male serial killer, and if the press were
Speaker 4: to you know, bad mouth them without a firm evidence
Speaker 4: to the contrary. I think we have to give the
Speaker 4: men the benefit of the doubt. Okay, if they were nude, yes,
Speaker 4: you know sex was happening. That much we can assume.
Speaker 4: But we know from other witnesses that she had this
Speaker 4: and she'd get in the car and then she'd try
Speaker 4: to rob men. We have men who you know, kind
Speaker 4: of parked at a gas station to get gas center
Speaker 4: in to buy some cigarettes or whatever and drove off
Speaker 4: because they found her so scary. And those men survived
Speaker 4: the encounter, as most did, of course, but also testified
Speaker 4: to the fact that she'd scared the living Jesus out
Speaker 4: of them, and that's what she'd done. She'd asked for
Speaker 4: a ride to get back to her children. So you
Speaker 4: imagine the pain of these families. Not only is they
Speaker 4: loved one murdered, you know, assuming that probably you know,
Speaker 4: at least three or four of the seven were nice guys,
Speaker 4: but he's labeled as a sort of rapist monster.
Speaker 6: I find it incredible to I agree with you because
Speaker 6: I've seen the same thing where a fair amount of
Speaker 6: information concerning the victims comes from the only last living witness,
Speaker 6: which is the killer. It's in her self interest to
Speaker 6: demonize the victim, and so, like you say, the family
Speaker 6: gets to hear an account of their loved one which
Speaker 6: is based on, you know, the self interest of the
Speaker 6: killer trying to demonize the victim to their own benefit.
Speaker 6: And then the media again is irresponsible, I think, or ignorant,
Speaker 6: or a combination of both, putting too much credence in
Speaker 6: a defense lawyer's assertions, which again come from the killer themselves.
Speaker 5: I think that.
Speaker 6: They're inexperienced, otherwise they wouldn't put that much credence to
Speaker 6: what a defense lawyer says on behalf of their client.
Speaker 4: Well, as you know, and I mean, we're all guilty
Speaker 4: of this to some extent as journalists, you know, you
Speaker 4: look up what's been printed before, and you're in a rush,
Speaker 4: you're on a deadline, and things get repeated. But she
Speaker 4: became these men became her John's and that was a
Speaker 4: shorthand were way of saying something that would fit in a.
Speaker 7: Very brief number of.
Speaker 4: Words, which is often a challenge as a journalist. But
Speaker 4: I think that it would be more accurate to say
Speaker 4: the men who picked her up as a hitchhike. So
Speaker 4: the other thing is that you don't very often read
Speaker 4: about the fact that she went out with this bottle
Speaker 4: of windecks and the gun in the bag every day. Now, Okay,
Speaker 4: I can see the gun self protection, but why would
Speaker 4: you carry windecks? Now the cars were wiped clean of fingerprints.
Speaker 4: You know, this was not a sudden thing out of
Speaker 4: the blue. There was some pre planning here and self
Speaker 4: protection on her part, but not against the men against
Speaker 4: being identified.
Speaker 6: Now, you talked about if she was careful to wipe
Speaker 6: off her fingerprints to not be detected for these murders.
Speaker 6: How did Aileen eventually get caught by police.
Speaker 4: Well, at the pawn shop. By law, you have to
Speaker 4: give a fingerprint, and unlike some of the criminals were
Speaker 4: out there today who had the fingerprints sanded off or
Speaker 4: chemically altered, Aileen's fingerprints were Aileen's fingerprints. And in those days,
Speaker 4: fingerprints were hand sorted, you know, they were on cards.
Speaker 4: There was no computerized whatever. But eventually, by good old
Speaker 4: police work, good old fashioned police work, items at a
Speaker 4: pawn shop where she had left her honest to god
Speaker 4: fingerprint on the card tied together. And she had a record,
Speaker 4: she had a criminal record, and so once that fingerprint
Speaker 4: was found with the pawned items that tied with missing
Speaker 4: items from the men who died, then the gig was up.
Speaker 4: And at that point the police went after Tyreea because
Speaker 4: they felt she was the less culpable. They had no
Speaker 4: real evidence that Rea was present at any of the murders.
Speaker 4: She had alibis for a couple of the days, for example,
Speaker 4: So they got hold of Tyrea first, and basically she
Speaker 4: gave her Cooperation and War hidden wire and telephoned Eileen,
Speaker 4: who'd been picked up on an outstanding gun. Warrington was
Speaker 4: in jail and said, you know they're on to us.
Speaker 4: They know what you've done. I'm not going down for
Speaker 4: what you've done. And a series of you know, very
Speaker 4: poignant phone calls were taped, and I say poignant because
Speaker 4: Eileen said, you know, I love you. You know I'm
Speaker 4: not going to let you go down for something you
Speaker 4: didn't do. And ultimately Eileen did confess, and you might
Speaker 4: say she confessed to save Tyree.
Speaker 6: And that was the gist of those phone calls as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it took a while to build up to that,
Speaker 4: but Eileen was suspicious. She said, are you sure there's
Speaker 4: nobody else there in the room with you, et cetera.
Speaker 4: But briefed by the police, I think I'm going to
Speaker 4: say there were seven, nine or eleven. Sorry, but it
Speaker 4: has been a long time taped telephone calls, and they
Speaker 4: accelerated the you know, the police were saying, come on,
Speaker 4: put more pressure on her, say that what You're going
Speaker 4: to be arrested and tiede was sort of more emotional
Speaker 4: with her on the phone. They think I did it.
Speaker 4: You know, they know who we are. There was a
Speaker 4: composite sketch done by an artist. They know it's us,
Speaker 4: you know, this sort of thing. And she convinced Eileen
Speaker 4: that she was going to be arrested, and Eileen said, look,
Speaker 4: I won't let that happen, and basically, you know, said
Speaker 4: I want to talk to a detective or whatever, and
Speaker 4: out came the three hour original confession.
Speaker 6: Now, at trial, did Ira testify against alien warnos?
Speaker 7: Yes, she did.
Speaker 6: Was that the testimony effective? And was there anything revealed
Speaker 6: at the trial that she didn't reveal? And say those
Speaker 6: phone calls? What you attended the trial? Tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about that testimony.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, for me, we are talking about nineteen
Speaker 4: ninety one here, So I don't want everyone to think
Speaker 4: I'm an amnesiac. But it's a long time since I
Speaker 4: first wrote this book and since I attended the troll.
Speaker 4: But what I remember most was.
Speaker 7: Ty came in.
Speaker 4: She'd been very cleaned up. She was wearing a sort
Speaker 4: of I mean she always dressed very butcher and T
Speaker 4: shirt and jeans and what have you. She was wearing
Speaker 4: an outfit and it was a patterned, you know, outfit
Speaker 4: and with a skirt I think, and maybe it was
Speaker 4: a pantsuit but anywhere print and had her haircuft and everything.
Speaker 4: And Eileen's eyes did not leave her as she walked
Speaker 4: to the stand and as she took the stand, but
Speaker 4: Tye did not once make eye contact back. And Eileen
Speaker 4: was obviously waiting for this, you know, for them to
Speaker 4: make eye contact. And she was devastated that Tye testified
Speaker 4: against her, absolutely devastated. And I think only then did
Speaker 4: it really hit her that tie was as instrumental as
Speaker 4: she was in what was going down for Eileen right now.
Speaker 6: In the book, it's another fascinating aspect of the story
Speaker 6: that Eileen Wernos's life and her need for celebrity and
Speaker 6: notoriety don't end. And there are some other people that
Speaker 6: come into her circle of influence there we'll say and
Speaker 6: tell us about Arlene Prell.
Speaker 4: Probably yes, Arlene pro It was a Christian woman who
Speaker 4: claimed that she saw Eileen on television and felt this calling,
Speaker 4: looked into her eyes and knew that she was innocent,
Speaker 4: and felt this calling to go and see her, and eventually,
Speaker 4: in order to facilitate the visits, she did adopt Eileen.
Speaker 4: Arlene adopted Eileen because that gave her more access to
Speaker 4: her in jail.
Speaker 7: So there was this adoption.
Speaker 4: For a time they were incredibly close. But by the
Speaker 4: time Eileen was executed, I rang Arleene Probaly, who by
Speaker 4: them was no longer living in Florida and was I'm
Speaker 4: not living on an island somewhere. And I rang her
Speaker 4: and she didn't know about the execution. I sort of
Speaker 4: broke that news to her. She had not even heard.
Speaker 4: But that's how their relationship was at that point.
Speaker 7: They were no longer talking.
Speaker 6: Now. Another figure is a Jacqueline Garrow. Maybe you can
Speaker 6: tell us who she was and what her Jackie position was.
Speaker 4: Jackie Drew is a film producer and actually I'd known her.
Speaker 4: I lived in Hollywood and I'd known Jackie for a
Speaker 4: long time casually, you know, and Jackie, well, it was
Speaker 4: a bit of a convoluted story. But she had a
Speaker 4: HouseGuest who was a friend of her both of us,
Speaker 4: and I rang the house that day and asked to
Speaker 4: speak to the HouseGuest and she said, Sue, it's me,
Speaker 4: you know, And I said, what are you doing? And
Speaker 4: she said, I'm going to make a movie about this woman,
Speaker 4: Eileen Warnoff, And so why don't you write a book
Speaker 4: about her? And so that's really how that came about.
Speaker 4: So Jackie Drew was hot on the trail of this
Speaker 4: from the minute of the arrest. Flew to Florida and
Speaker 4: signed up movie rights with Eileen through a lawyer, and
Speaker 4: of course it then all got much more complicated, and
Speaker 4: you know, the basically Eileen was very much wanting money.
Speaker 4: She always wanted money. It's funny this morning I read
Speaker 4: on pointer that ABC News I believe it's ABC News,
Speaker 4: I can check while we're talking, had paid two hundred
Speaker 4: thousand dollars to the Casey Anthony family for video and pictures. Well, similarly,
Speaker 4: news organizations were paying Eileen money ten thousand here, ten thousand.
Speaker 4: There wasn't the big bucks that ABC paid to the
Speaker 4: Ksey Anthony family. But she was getting this money and
Speaker 4: she lauded it over her team outside the prison basically said, Okay,
Speaker 4: this much goes to this one and this much goes
Speaker 4: to that one. And she's exercised control from behind bars
Speaker 4: over these people. And Arlene Prowley was you know, this
Speaker 4: was top of the list. Because of course Eileen couldn't
Speaker 4: receive the money herself or at least only a limited
Speaker 4: amount for her touch shop purchases or whatever they're allowed
Speaker 4: in the prison accounts.
Speaker 6: Did Jackie Guru end up making the movie?
Speaker 4: Jackie Drew did make a movie, but she had a
Speaker 4: lot of troubles with it, because, first of all, while
Speaker 4: I was writing the book, CBS rushed out at TV
Speaker 4: movie starring Gene Smart, which was as inaccurate as you
Speaker 4: could wish in terms of painting Tyria again as unaware
Speaker 4: of the crimes, and you know, what have you. And
Speaker 4: then of course, you know, along came Monster and I
Speaker 4: don't you'd have to ask Jackie Duru herself about her
Speaker 4: movie journey, but it was. It was quite a journey,
Speaker 4: and all kinds of ins and outs with people trying
Speaker 4: to stop and make the movie. And then you know,
Speaker 4: there were issues of three police officers having an agreement
Speaker 4: with CBS where they would cooperate in the making of
Speaker 4: that first movie, and although ultimately it was not proven
Speaker 4: that they had taken money, and this was pre trial,
Speaker 4: by the way, so this was pretty bad stuff. I
Speaker 4: do have a copy of the draft letter of the
Speaker 4: agreement that the police officers were supposedly going to sign
Speaker 4: from that time, but it does not bear signatures, and
Speaker 4: I do believe that they backed out, you know, but
Speaker 4: at the time they were being offered quite a chunk
Speaker 4: of change. And then there was somebody running around trying
Speaker 4: to sell transcripts of the confession, the three hour confession
Speaker 4: before before that was made put in the public domain
Speaker 4: and was accessible to journalists like myself, and you know,
Speaker 4: asking ten thousand dollars for that. So it was a zoo, Dan,
Speaker 4: It was a zoo. It's the kind of zoo that
Speaker 4: we now see more commonly, you know, with cases like
Speaker 4: Casey Anthony, But back then it was a sort of
Speaker 4: standout zoo, if you will.
Speaker 7: And her greed for.
Speaker 4: The money essentially cut off my contact with her because
Speaker 4: I wasn't going to pay her, and you know, people
Speaker 4: like the news organizations and Montell Williams ended up getting
Speaker 4: much more access to her. Nick Broomfield, the documentarian, because
Speaker 4: they did pay money.
Speaker 6: I saw a program are concerning Lee Warren else on
Speaker 6: American Justice, and I thought it was a fair program
Speaker 6: as a very reputable program as well, not as well,
Speaker 6: but it is a reputable program, I should say, right
Speaker 6: handle the cases in a very respectful and truthful way.
Speaker 6: I find so yes, now you said that she was
Speaker 6: ultimately sentenced to sixth death sentences. Was she executed? When
Speaker 6: was she executed?
Speaker 4: Yes, she was executed. She was, indeed, and totally coincidentally.
Speaker 7: You know, within.
Speaker 4: A month or or so of my book coming out
Speaker 4: in America, and you know that was just looking to
Speaker 4: see who I could find the date here. But anyway,
Speaker 4: it was two thousand and two. It was the fall
Speaker 4: of two thousand and two. And yeah, I mean she
Speaker 4: was executed and the last high profile woman to have
Speaker 4: been executed. And I don't think any woman's been executed
Speaker 4: in Florida since I lean, but I would have to
Speaker 4: check that. Ultimately, she gave up her appeals. She wanted
Speaker 4: to die, She wanted to go and be with God.
Speaker 4: And she had at the time a lawyer, Stephen Glazier,
Speaker 4: who honored and respected that wish of hers, which caused
Speaker 4: outrage in the legal community, who believed that, you know,
Speaker 4: if a client says they want to die, certainly don't
Speaker 4: help them on their way. Perhaps, you know, after when
Speaker 4: she I talked to her, iilean very but briefly the
Speaker 4: night before she got her first death sentence by telephone
Speaker 4: and we spoke and it was very apparent to me that.
Speaker 7: She expected to get off. She did.
Speaker 4: There wasn't a corner of her mind that thought she
Speaker 4: was going to be found guilty. She cried on the
Speaker 4: witness stand. She told this horror story, but it didn't
Speaker 4: match the evidence, and of course she was found guilty.
Speaker 4: She was devastated, Dan, she was doubtless in a state
Speaker 4: of depression. She got three more death sentences, which were
Speaker 4: what's the word she pled out basically, And so therefore
Speaker 4: there were sentencing hearings and I attended those as well,
Speaker 4: and so she basically sort of caved in and said, look, okay,
Speaker 4: I did it. She didn't even fight. There wasn't another
Speaker 4: trial after the first trial. It was a no contest issue.
Speaker 4: And she did reach a point when she just wanted
Speaker 4: to give up the appeals. She had disintegrated emotionally. She
Speaker 4: was never the most stable person, as we've said, but
Speaker 4: on death row she'd definitely gone downhill. But that said,
Speaker 4: she'd also embraced the Bible, embraced God, embraced her religion,
Speaker 4: believed she was going to a better place and that.
Speaker 7: Was what she wanted.
Speaker 4: She'd had ten years shut in a cell on her
Speaker 4: own and it was like, you know enough already, I
Speaker 4: don't want any more of this. And so at that
Speaker 4: point she dropped her appeals and there were various hearings
Speaker 4: in front of judges to be sure that that was
Speaker 4: what she wanted, and eventually all was cleared and nothing
Speaker 4: further stood in the way of her execution and it
Speaker 4: went ahead.
Speaker 6: Now do you think you talk in your book extensively
Speaker 6: about the psychopathic mind of the serial killers that crave celebrity.
Speaker 6: They want the notoriety above almost anything else. You talked
Speaker 6: about her late embrace of Christianity or later embrace before
Speaker 6: she died. Do you really believe that she enjoyed this
Speaker 6: entire again moment in the sun her attention.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, you know you.
Speaker 4: Have to look at it this way. She talked to
Speaker 4: Cammy Green about, you know, do you want to get
Speaker 4: involved in something with me? And Ty were going to
Speaker 4: be like Bonnie and Clyde. She kept talking about Bonnie
Speaker 4: and Clyde, when before she had committed any of the
Speaker 4: murders we know about. She got hold of this chap
Speaker 4: who was a writer slash coach driver and had him
Speaker 4: come over to the motel that they were living in.
Speaker 7: One evening because.
Speaker 4: She wanted him to write her life story, and he
Speaker 4: was so freaked out that he kind of fled from
Speaker 4: the motel and never to be seen again. When she
Speaker 4: was in jail, she talked about being I'm Eileen Warnos
Speaker 4: of television. You know, wait till Heraldo hears about this.
Speaker 4: There was definitely some grandiosity, and yes, I do believe
Speaker 4: she wanted to be famous.
Speaker 7: I just don't think she.
Speaker 4: Believed it would end up the way it ended up.
Speaker 4: You know, it's arguable, I guess how conscious all of
Speaker 4: this was played into her thinking. I still believe that
Speaker 4: she was a robber who killed, but definitely she wanted fame.
Speaker 4: And back then, you know, when she was a little
Speaker 4: more of sound mind, she pursued come to you know,
Speaker 4: think about it. Before she'd done anything, she said, I'm
Speaker 4: going to tell you to this author slash coach driver,
Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you things that you know will
Speaker 4: make your hair stand on end, that you've you know,
Speaker 4: things you've.
Speaker 7: Never heard before. I don't know, I don't know it
Speaker 7: was there.
Speaker 4: More to tell I don't know, But this was before
Speaker 4: the first murder. What did she think this book was
Speaker 4: going to be about? What was she going to write
Speaker 4: a book about I have no idea, but she wanted
Speaker 4: a book written about her. She wanted fame, She wanted,
Speaker 4: you know, to be famous for sure, and the Bonnie
Speaker 4: and Clyde fantasy was big with her and long lasting.
Speaker 6: Well, Sue, we just have about a minute left. I'd
Speaker 6: like to let people know that you've been talking about
Speaker 6: the book of Lethal Intent, the most shocking, shocking two
Speaker 6: story of one America's most notorious female serial killers, Eileen Warren. Else,
Speaker 6: maybe you can tell us what you're working on now
Speaker 6: and your website contact for anybody that's interested, please.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, Well, my website is www dot Sue s
Speaker 4: U E. Russell r U S S E L L
Speaker 4: Rights w R I T E S dot com, Sue
Speaker 4: Russellwrights dot com. What I'm working on now?
Speaker 7: Ha ha ha ha.
Speaker 4: Wouldn't you like to know? Actually, I am working on
Speaker 4: another crime book proposal, and hopefully we'll be able to
Speaker 4: talk about that soon, but it's a bit premature right now.
Speaker 4: But I've been writing about wildfire technology for a wonderful
Speaker 4: website called Miller mckewne dot com. Just had a five
Speaker 4: part series with them on extreme wildfire fighting and the
Speaker 4: advances in computer imaging and mapping and what have you.
Speaker 4: And I've written about fingerprints and bias and all kinds
Speaker 4: of forensic stuff, you know, for non books, for magazines
Speaker 4: and websites. So that's really been the most recent stuff.
Speaker 6: Well, very interesting stuff. I want to thank you very much,
Speaker 6: su Russell, and I want you to have a great day.
Speaker 6: And I want to thank you very much for this
Speaker 6: fascinating interview.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Dan.
Speaker 4: I appreciated it and I enjoyed it.
Speaker 6: I enjoyed it very much myself. You have a great day.
Speaker 6: Take care, take care, bye bye bye. I've been listening
Speaker 6: to the program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in
Speaker 6: true crime History, with your host Dan Supaski. Good night.