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True Murder with 32 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:34.079 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 33 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:46.840 Hello, this is your host Dan Zupaski for the program 34 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:49.680 True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History 35 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:53.519 and the authors that have written about them. On November thirtieth, 36 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.680 nineteen eighty nine, in Florida, a man was shot four 37 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:01.120 times by a naked, heartfaced blonde prostitute. He suffered a slow, 38 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.480 agonizing death while the woman stripped him of his valuables 39 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.280 and drove his Cadillac back to the motel where her 40 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:12.000 lesbian lover was waiting. In nineteen ninety her killing spree 41 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:15.840 kicked into high gear, with three men slain in three weeks. 42 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:19.000 Of the six of seven male victims whose bodies were found, 43 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.280 some were nude, all had been robbed and shot dead. 44 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:26.719 In January nineteen ninety one, pawnshop records led to the 45 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:32.240 arrest of Aileen Carol Warnos a k A. Lee an abusive, 46 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:36.080 alcoholic man hater with a murderous hair trigger temper. Tired 47 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:40.319 of turning twenty Duller tricks and often being abused, Warnos 48 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:43.520 decided to rob her customers of everything they had, including 49 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:46.520 their lives. Her arrest and trial prompted a world wide 50 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:49.759 media frenzy and even an Academy Award winning movie Monster. 51 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:55.280 In the end, Warnos received six separate death sentences. Lethal 52 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:59.199 Intent is the definitive account of a killer who confounded 53 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:03.159 the profiling exists, forever changing their concepts of the crimes 54 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.039 of which a woman is capable. My guest today is 55 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:09.759 journalist and author Sue Russell, discussing her true crime classic 56 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:13.159 lethal Intent, the shocking true story of one of America's 57 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:17.759 most notorious female serial killers. Welcome to the program, Sue Russell, 58 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:19.360 and thank you for agreeing to this interview. 59 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:22.680 Good morning, Dan, Thank you for having me on the show. 60 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:26.159 Well, thank you very much. It's my pleasure and I'm 61 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:31.599 sure our audiences as well. Oh yeah, I'm sure, I'm certain. Now. 62 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:34.879 First off, this is a question that's always intrigues me 63 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:38.400 and I always ask it of all guests. You are 64 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:41.639 give you a little bit of a background to our audience. 65 00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:46.479 You're an internationally syndicated journalist and author, a past editor 66 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:50.360 of Women Magazine, a Woman Magazine, and a regular contributor 67 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:53.960 to various British and US publications. You've written about the 68 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:57.560 beauty industry and co authored The Star Mothers The Moms 69 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:01.960 Behind the Celebrities. Now, what was it about the Alien 70 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.960 Warno's case? Because you've written about so many diverse cases, 71 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:08.240 what was it about the Alien Warno's case specifically that 72 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:11.400 compelled you to write not only Lethal Intent but also 73 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:15.159 Damsel of Death, both about Alien Warnos. What was it 74 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:18.399 about Alien Warnos and her case that interested you so much? 75 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:23.319 Well, I'd written a lot of crime stories and features 76 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:27.759 on related issues about crime, and I was dying to 77 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:31.360 write a true crime book No pun intended. And the 78 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:34.839 minute I heard about Eileen, of course my is pricked 79 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:38.480 up because it was such an extraordinary case. It was 80 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:42.720 such an amazing piece of news that was coming across 81 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:48.600 the wise, this woman being arrested with all these casualties 82 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:54.160 of her at the end of her twenty two caliber 83 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:59.720 gan and it was in modern day times unprecedented and 84 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:04.439 defied the definitions of a serial killer, you know, as 85 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:08.519 outlined by the FBI. So it just seemed crazy not 86 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:11.560 to just immediately jump up and say, Okay, this is 87 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:15.040 the one I have to write this book. I felt 88 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:18.759 very much interested in women's violence. I'd written about women 89 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:25.240 as victims of violence, and this was just too good 90 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:29.600 to pass up in terms of being such a fascinating story. 91 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:33.759 Dan, Right now, I'm a little bit confused, and maybe 92 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:36.839 you can tell our audience. You wrote Damsel of Death 93 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:42.920 and in also Lethal Intent. Are they two separate books. 94 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:46.800 I'm glad you asked that, because it does confuse people somewhat. 95 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.600 What happened was I wrote Damsel of Death first for 96 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:54.839 England and Australia. As you may be able to tell, 97 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.040 I don't know if I have any of my accent left. 98 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:02.519 I am a natives of Londoner, and so the book 99 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:07.959 came out over there first, and due to various publishing 100 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:14.160 industry hiccups, it didn't come out here until, you know, 101 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:16.920 after two thousand what was it two thousand and two, 102 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:21.279 I think right, And at that point they put another 103 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:23.680 title on it. It was exactly the same book, but 104 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:27.600 I updated it with her ten years on death row 105 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:31.439 at the end. So lethal Intent is definitely the one 106 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:33.839 if anyone's interested in getting hold of the book, because 107 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:36.720 it does go right up to, you know, the point 108 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:37.680 of her execution. 109 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:43.399 Yeah, okay, that's that clarifies that I was interested to 110 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:45.759 know about that. It would seem unusual that you would 111 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:49.040 write two separate books about the same thing. Now I 112 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:53.319 understand that you've spent some two years researching the life 113 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:57.079 of Alien Warnos. It is a fascinating story just on 114 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.560 its own. Let's go back. What was Alien Warno's early 115 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.639 life like growing up in Troy, Michigan, just outside of 116 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:04.560 the city of Detroit. 117 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.639 Right, Just to clarify, I didn't spend two years researching it. 118 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:12.120 I spent two years researching and writing it. I don't 119 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:14.319 want people to think I'm the slowest person in the 120 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:22.839 world on hemisphere. Eileen was born to Diane Warnoff, who 121 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:29.079 was briefly married to Leo Pittman. They were both very 122 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:35.240 young and this was in Troy, Michigan, And basically what 123 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:39.759 happened is, first there was the brother, Keith, who's about 124 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:43.720 eleven months older than Eileen, and then Eileen was born, 125 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:47.920 by which time Leo Pittman had exited the picture, and 126 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:52.600 within the first two years of Eileen's life, her mother 127 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:57.759 abandoned her twice, dumping her and Keith on the grandparents, 128 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:03.319 Brita and Lowry Warnoff vote in the Troy, Michigan area 129 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:08.120 there and so she left the babies with the grandparents 130 00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:10.759 once and then she came back and tried to make 131 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:12.600 a go of it, but that didn't work, and so 132 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:17.480 she took off twice. So for anyone who believes, you know, 133 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:24.959 the abandonment during that very early formative stage is a 134 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:29.439 powerful influence on a person's future, then I think you 135 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:32.480 could say that Eileen had a double dose of it. 136 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:39.720 The grandparents then raised Eileen and Keith as their own 137 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:45.960 and alongside their own children Diane's brothers, Barry and Laurie, 138 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:50.639 so it was Barry and Laurie and Eileen and Keith 139 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:54.519 as if they were all siblings, although in fact Barry 140 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:57.799 and Laurie were aunt and uncle to Eileen and Keith. 141 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:05.000 Her prime making sense, Yeah, yeah, So it was a 142 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:09.919 rough childhood. It was a hard scrabble Michigan life. But 143 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:16.159 Lurie warn us Lowry, I'm sorry, the father, we called 144 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:20.279 him Lowry to try to distinguish from Lourie the daughter, 145 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:25.039 but Lowry warn Us was generally recognized in the neighborhood 146 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:28.559 as a mean man, and neighbors would hear the kids 147 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:33.480 getting a whipping from across the backyards and what have you, 148 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:37.320 and here screaming and carrying on. The shades were always drawn. 149 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:40.120 They were a very private family. It was one of 150 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:43.120 those cases of what is going on behind closed doors, 151 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:45.720 and school kids who went to school with her would 152 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:49.759 always say, or said when I interviewed them years later 153 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:53.360 that they always assumed that bad things were happening and 154 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:56.799 it was not a happy place to be living, but 155 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:01.360 they kept all of it very much hidden. And grandmother 156 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:07.639 Brita was also later was revealed an alcoholic and was 157 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:10.639 drinking heavily behind closed doors too. 158 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:12.440 So you've got. 159 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:16.399 Two drinking grandparents, and you've got the violence from the 160 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:21.519 grandfather who would take a belt to the kids, especially Eileen, 161 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:24.480 who was always in trouble with them, and you know, 162 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:29.120 he'd pull down their jeans or whatever and just take 163 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:33.639 the leather belt to them and actually make Eileen polish 164 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:36.279 it up before she got a whipping. So it was 165 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:41.039 a whole procedure and I'm sure had a bad effect 166 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:45.679 on her outlook and life in general. You know, it 167 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.960 was child abuse, certainly would be considered child abuse today. 168 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:53.720 In those days, it was not so terribly unusual, or 169 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.600 at least it was a perhaps more violent version of 170 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.840 what's not so terribly unusual. It wasn't unusual to hit 171 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:01.320 your kids back then. 172 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:08.000 Now when you talk about effect, certainly in a negative 173 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:11.480 effect in this case, as well as we will reveal 174 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:15.480 in this interview that this is an exceptional case for 175 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:19.240 all the factors that led to her shaping her eventual 176 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:24.080 character and eventual behavior. And you talk about the parents, 177 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:30.799 and were Aileen and Keith told about who their parents 178 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:34.840 actually were or what anything about their actual real parents? 179 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:38.399 And when were they told? At what age were they 180 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:41.559 told given this actual information the real identity of the 181 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:42.519 actual parents. 182 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.200 Aileen was about twelve years old, and she was crushed, 183 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:53.519 completely crushed. She was in disbelief, basically. And what is 184 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:56.759 so interesting to me, or was you know, initially so 185 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:01.639 stunningly interesting to me, Dan, was that when I began 186 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:08.159 looking into Leo Pittman's background birth father, not only was 187 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:12.799 he a petty criminal and stole cars and things like that, 188 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:16.279 but when I eventually got his records from the FBI 189 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:19.759 and learned about what he had done. A bit later on, 190 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.559 he had abducted a child into his car. He'd lurked 191 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:27.600 outside a schoolyard and he'd taken this little girl, I 192 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:31.720 think she was maybe seven, and he'd driven her across 193 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:37.480 state lines and he had sexually abused her, and he 194 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:40.200 then put her in the car and he drove her 195 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:44.519 back across and dropped her off outside the school. Now, 196 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:49.840 because she'd gone across state lines, albeit marginally, it became 197 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:55.480 a federal offense. And the father of Eileen also committed 198 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:58.879 a capital crime. He too faced the death penalty like 199 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:03.919 his daughter, and they never met and he didn't get 200 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.399 the death penalty, and ultimately he hanged himself in prison. 201 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:11.840 But I just find that so eerie and uncanny, a coincidence, 202 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:15.879 or maybe more than a coincidence, that their lives took 203 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:21.879 these turns. And the child, who was instrumental in the 204 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:27.720 victim in putting Leo Pittman behind bars, had to go 205 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:30.080 into court to testify that this was the man who'd 206 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:34.240 abducted and raped her. And when she was shown the 207 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:37.039 fabric from the seat of his car, which was a 208 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:42.399 distinctive check pattern. She broke out in hives in front 209 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:45.840 of the whole courtroom so everyone could see this immediate 210 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:49.759 physical reaction. She had justice seeing the car seat material 211 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:53.000 from Leo Pittman's car. But Leo tried to play the 212 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:56.200 system too, saying he was mentally ill. He spent time 213 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:58.759 in the mental hospital, he spent time in the prison. 214 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:02.639 Part tried to work the system, and he did, in 215 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:03.799 fact hang himself. 216 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:08.200 It's very interesting when you talk about the environmental the 217 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:11.759 effect of the environment on a future killer of this 218 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:15.360 case is very I would think a textbook case in 219 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:16.600 terms of what not to do. 220 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:22.080 And yes, I mean I always likened it to stacking 221 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:24.840 up Domino's, you know, standing them up on their end 222 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:27.080 in a long row before they all began to tip 223 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:30.279 over and they suddenly reached the tipping point. It was 224 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:33.879 like everything that was a part of her life was 225 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:38.320 a strike against her. She had some hearing difficulties which 226 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:43.080 manifested themselves as learning difficulties. In fact, she just needed 227 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:47.240 a hearing aid, and the grandmother sort of refused to 228 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:48.840 accept this and didn't get her. 229 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:54.080 The necessary help and kind of dismissed it. 230 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:57.320 When teachers noted this kind of thing, and one teacher 231 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.960 actually wrote a report saying something, this girl is going 232 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:05.679 to I've forgotten the wording. It's been so long, I'm sorry, 233 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:08.120 but you know, more or less like this girl is going, 234 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.159 you know, to end up in major trouble if somebody 235 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:15.600 doesn't intervene. And of course nobody did. But eventually those 236 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:21.919 dominoes all kind of cumulatively, the weight of them just 237 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:26.240 tipped over. And it almost feels inevitable when you look 238 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:29.720 at the fact she was taking money for sex when 239 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:35.240 she was age eleven or twelve. Boys who were in 240 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:37.720 the neighborhood at that time and who are now men 241 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:43.440 testified to testify, but they told me in interviews that 242 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:46.240 they'd had sex with her. When she was eleven, she 243 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:49.840 had sex with her brother. She took money for sex. 244 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:53.320 She would charge thirty five cents or a packet of cigarettes. 245 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:56.240 She was called the cigarette pig, the cigarette bandit. 246 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:58.039 These kids had. 247 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:01.799 A fort and they would have makeout sessions, and nobody 248 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:03.000 wanted to kiss Eileen. 249 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:04.879 Hey, guysaid is Ryan. 250 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:06.440 I'm not sure if you know this about me, but 251 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.120 I'm a bit of a fun fanatic. 252 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:09.639 When I can, I like to work, but I like 253 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:10.759 fun too. 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And she would use this money 266 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:52.799 that she got from sex also to party with her friends. 267 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:54.320 She's so badly. 268 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:59.399 Wanted friends, and she so badly wanted to build these 269 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.080 friendships that she saw all around her, but that seemed 270 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:05.279 to elude her, and so she'd throw parties and what 271 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:10.880 have you. But the trouble was she had this explosive temper, 272 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:16.400 and as I write about in Lethal Intent, basically she 273 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:20.599 sabotaged every friendship she had because other kids were afraid 274 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:26.240 of Eileen. She would have this extraordinary explosion from time 275 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:31.759 to time, much to the embarrassment of sistersh Aunt Laurie, 276 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:36.400 who really tried to do to stand up for Eileen, 277 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:39.920 but at times it became impossible and unbearable. 278 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:41.279 Barrier was a bit older and. 279 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:43.759 Was out of the house, so Laurie was more in 280 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:47.759 the sick of it. But it was very It was 281 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:52.240 very tough because Eileen clearly longed for these connections, but 282 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:57.160 just was unable to rain in this sort of these 283 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.240 demons inside her long enough to sustains. 284 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.920 What I found was interesting too in continuum with just 285 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:08.000 with her environment. You also, or at least did she 286 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:10.480 had said and I don't know if this was corroborated. 287 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:12.880 You can tell us who actually said this and if 288 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.799 there was any any corroboration of this he'd said that. 289 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:20.200 I think Alien had said that. Her father said she 290 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:25.079 was wicked, evil, worthless, should never have been born, and 291 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:28.519 she was not worthy of the air that she breathed. Yeah, 292 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:30.880 was that proven that those kind of statements came from 293 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:32.920 her adopted father. 294 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.960 I think that was a mixture of what was told 295 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:43.759 by close family friends, by Eileen herself. Laurie, the sister aunt, 296 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:49.240 was a little reticent when it came to painting her 297 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:55.079 father with this nasty, nasty brush that everybody else did. 298 00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:58.039 I think she was rather in denial, but she did 299 00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:01.000 admit that, yes we got whippings, and yes, you know 300 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.599 he did shout at Eileen and Keith. 301 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:04.880 They were always in trouble. 302 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:10.759 So it was a combination of people, including Eileen. 303 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:12.119 Herself, who. 304 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:18.000 Talked about this verbal abuse which was ongoing for a 305 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.000 long time and obviously very destructive. 306 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:29.200 You also talk about that Aleen Lee Wernos also developed 307 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:33.200 a liking for drugs and alcohol. Yes, and how did 308 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:36.880 this play into her eventual acceleration and her behavior, her 309 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:41.000 behavior getting worse eventually? What was the role of alcohol 310 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:41.759 and drugs in that. 311 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:47.319 Well, you know, there were several elements running concurrently. She 312 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:50.279 was getting into so much trouble. I mean, she got 313 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:54.039 pregnant when she was fourteen and went into a home 314 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:57.000 and gave birth and the baby was taken away from 315 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:01.920 her when she was just past fifteen, fifteenth birthday. So 316 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:06.000 we have the drinking and the drugs. We have her 317 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:12.440 being essentially ostracized from then on by Lowry, who basically 318 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:15.599 kicked her out of the house more than once. She 319 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:19.160 did go back, but eventually she didn't go back and 320 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:25.000 she lived in cars, in cambers, in people's driveways. She 321 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.799 lived it rough, and needless to say, I am quite 322 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:34.279 certain that drugs and alcohol played quite a role in 323 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:39.960 the road she then took because she basically never really 324 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:45.839 pursued any kind of jobs or she lived rough. She 325 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:53.480 prostituted herself. And I've always believed Eileen always denied that 326 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:56.480 she did drugs in the later part of her life. 327 00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:58.920 And certainly I know that when she was with her 328 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:03.839 lover Tyree More, they would, you know, knock off a 329 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:08.319 forty eight pack of beer in an evening, But Eileen 330 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:11.839 always denied the drugs. Now, the drugs were very prevalent 331 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:18.160 during the teenage years, and unless someone actually actively goes 332 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:20.400 into AA and says I'm going to clean up my 333 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:23.839 act and gives up the drugs, you know, living the 334 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:27.599 life she did, the prostitution, the living on the streets, 335 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:31.559 the homeless, the going from one place to another, I 336 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:34.319 personally find it very hard to believe and always did 337 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:39.160 that she didn't continue to do drugs. She had certain 338 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:42.680 things that to her were not acceptable. She would admit 339 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.240 to the drinking, and I believe she did the drugs 340 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:48.160 and didn't admit to them in much the same way 341 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:51.039 that she had no problem admitting to having killed the men, 342 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:54.960 but she had a problem saying she'd been sexually abused. 343 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:58.599 In her mind, one was shameful, the other was not. 344 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:03.480 And I think that the drugs were there, that would 345 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:06.079 be my you know, it can only be a guest 346 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:09.119 because she would never confirm it. But you know, people 347 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:11.559 pay for sex with drugs, as you know. And she 348 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.640 was living a very rough life for a very long time. 349 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:21.240 Right now, you mentioned her lover, her lesbian lover, Tyra 350 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:24.759 or Tyre and Tyra Moore. Maybe can tell us a 351 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:29.400 little bit about Tyra and the event that intersected these 352 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.559 two people's lives forever, where they met, how they met, 353 00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:35.359 and how they became a couple, and tell us a 354 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.880 little bit about Tyra Moore forst well, Tira. 355 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:40.400 Was actually. 356 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.200 The more industrious of the two. She did have a. 357 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:50.680 Definite liking for partying and drinking beer and you know, 358 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:56.160 generally getting wasted regularly. However, she did hold down jobs. 359 00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:58.799 She was a hotel maid and you know, various other 360 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:01.759 jobs that she had. Periods of time she would go 361 00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:05.319 off to work and leave Iileen. Eileen would then take 362 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:10.839 off up the highway with her what the police would call, 363 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:12.960 and you know, I guess I would too, give them 364 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:16.839 what was in it her kill bag, which was a 365 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:20.119 bottle of Windex and her gun, and she would go 366 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:25.480 off hooking. And you know, there's some dispute really about 367 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.200 how much was openly told to Tyra at what point. 368 00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:33.400 There's no doubt that tyrone knew she was prostituting herself, 369 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.519 but Tira was the type who really liked the end 370 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:39.920 product and didn't want to rock the boat too much. 371 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.599 It was easier for her to turn a blind eye and. 372 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:43.359 Just take the. 373 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:49.240 Rewards, as it were, of what came of Aileen's lifestyle. 374 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:54.839 They met in a bar and they began drinking and 375 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:59.759 they went home together. At the time, Tyrie was living 376 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:04.279 with Cammy Green, a friend of her, and Cammy's. 377 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:05.000 Husband and children. 378 00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:10.680 And they woke up one morning and Tyria had a 379 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:15.759 woman in her room, and Cammy tried to go in 380 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.200 at some point and she was told no, no, get away. 381 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.720 And basically they spent the weekend together, locked up together 382 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:25.720 in that room, coming out just occasionally to get more 383 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.319 alcohol or whatever. However, Dan, I must tell you that 384 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:34.440 contrary to what everybody else believes. I do not believe 385 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:38.920 that Eileen was a lesbian. I believe that Eileen I 386 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:44.599 interviewed enough former boyfriends and people with whom she had 387 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:48.920 sex where there was no money exchanged. Men I'm talking about. 388 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:56.480 I believe with Eileen Tyra, Tyrea. I call her Tyria, 389 00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.680 you call her Tira, Many people call her Tira. Taria 390 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:07.359 was an emotional prop It was what Eileen so badly, 391 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:13.119 badly craved, that emotional connection. Their sex life dropped off 392 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:17.400 pretty quickly, and although Eileen did have one other to 393 00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:23.240 our knowledge, lesbian affair, basically she was often in love 394 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:26.920 with men and often had sex with men. So I've 395 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:33.079 always gone against this man hating lesbian label always given 396 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:35.559 to her by the press. I don't believe that was 397 00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:37.960 the case. I don't believe she was a lesbian. She 398 00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:42.720 was bisexual perhaps, but she certainly enjoyed sex with men 399 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:44.839 and instigated it when she didn't have to. 400 00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:50.319 Yes, she was the act of love. Somebody actually wanting 401 00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:54.880