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Speaker 1: For a one year period from July twenty twenty three

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to June twenty twenty four, the United States Conference of

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Catholic Bishops reported nine hundred and two allegations by eight

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hundred and fifty five victims and survivors of child sexual

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abuse by clergy, making the daily victim average two point

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seven self reported children in the Catholic Church today, in

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modern times, nearly three children are assaulted per day by

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member of the Catholic clergy. Presidents, However, are no better.

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Insurance companies that track SA cases list the church as

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the most likely place for a child under eighteen to

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get assaulted, and based on population statistics, the church is

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three times more likely to be an assault location than

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the next most likely location. This data is all very

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confusing because Christians are said to have the Holy Spirit

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leaving in them, which turns them into a new creature.

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Tewo Corinthians five seventeen. Does if any man be in Christ,

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he is a new creature? I say all that to

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say this that if Christ is not able to conform

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his believers to be like him, after the Bible said

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that he would, and then we have no reason to

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believe any claims made by the Bible or any claims

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made by Jesus. In Mark sixteen eighteen, Jesus said that

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believers will place hands on the sick and they will

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be healed. Yet hospitals are full of sick people. Jesus

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also said in Matthew eighteen nineteen that if two of

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you agree on earth about anything that they ask, it

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shall be done for them. Yet, prayers by Christians have

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been studied, and praying has no better outcome than flipping

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a coin. Is there any reason why non believers should

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take Jesus or the God of the Bible seriously given

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the myriad of failures and lies.

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Speaker 2: If you have a reason, give us a call.

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Speaker 1: The lines are open and the show starts now. Oo

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coome in everybody Today is May tenth, twenty twenty six.

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And joining me today is my friend Scott Dicky.

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Speaker 2: Really appreciate you having here.

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Speaker 1: And also, friends, we've got mother's day to day, so

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let's not forget about the.

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Speaker 3: Mothers exactly, exactly, Kudos to all the moms out there

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and all of the uh all the people that take

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on the mother role as well, and so you know,

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being a mom is hard. Being a mom as difficult

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and so so you you get all of our respect here.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know what people get mad at me. I've

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said this before. I realized people don't like hearing it.

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Speaker 1: But like I went with quite a bit of like

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childbirthing in my life, and I don't know how willing

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like if men had to go through that, I'm thinking

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like putting myself in that position of minute to go

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through it. I don't know if the sheer number.

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Speaker 2: Of them would. I just don't know if they would

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would do the thing. It's it's a yeah, terrifying process.

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Speaker 4: It.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I said, kudos to to anybody who who

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who does that for the sake of another human being,

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And yeah, I agree. I mean, I've had a pretty

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nasty kidney stone in my life. I wouldn't want to

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go through that again. And I've heard that compared to childbirth.

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And I'm not trying to say that it's worse or

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better or whatever, but yeah, I'm kind of a worst too.

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I do have kind of a high pain tolerance, But

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I think I would shy away from something like that,

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although I like to think that I would step up,

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you know, I would like I like to think that

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I would, you know, when push came to shove that

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I would be able to follow through on that. But yeah,

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I totally hear you. I think that a lot of

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the people that are you know, I would think it's

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a lot of the people that try to push those

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gendered roles onto other people might be the same people

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that would shy away from something like that, I.

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Speaker 2: Think, yeah, yeah, indeed.

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Speaker 1: The other interesting thing too is like in a lot

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of these early religions, like the Abamer religions, there's this

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huge push towards you gotta have kids.

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Speaker 2: You know, you gotta have babies.

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Speaker 1: God says be fruitful, multiply, But like, isn't it weird

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that God wants you to be fruitful multiply and like

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based on his design metrics, like a huge number of

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babies die in the womb giving birth or within six

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months the birth. It's a weird command knowing that God,

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for no reason is this going to make sure that

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a high percentage of those baby don't survive?

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Speaker 5: Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: And what what's what's also weird about those people that

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that want to basically outbirth, you know, the opponents or.

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Speaker 5: The other the other beliefs. That's evolution right there.

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Speaker 3: That's that's you know, survival of the fittest happening right there.

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So you know, trying to outpopulate the uh, the other beliefs.

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Speaker 5: You know, that's evolution happening right there.

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Speaker 2: That's a fair point.

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Speaker 1: Everything we see in terms of human existence, like an

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animal existence outside of the human race is pretty well

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predicted within evolution. Like every time, like science and biology

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make these bold predictions that line up with evolution, they

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keep coming true.

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Speaker 2: It's it's wild how that works.

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Speaker 1: Yet all of the God predictions can never get verified.

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Every time we learn new science that makes God seem

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sillier and sillier. I can't think of like a scientific

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theory that was ever overturned by God yet.

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Speaker 3: Still waiting, still waiting for it to happen. But we're

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but we're looking. Maybe we'll get maybe we'll get a

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caller today that will shed some weight on the subject

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we are looking.

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Speaker 1: And also a quick announcement, we remember we're streaming UH

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vertically and horizontal. You can pick your poison, and we're

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also going to be streaming on TikTok.

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Speaker 2: If you're a guest and you're watching on.

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Speaker 1: TikTok, you can request up using the guest Request feature,

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and we can bring you into the show without having

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to call in with the number on the screen, and

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the number to call in is five one two nine

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nine to two, four to two, or you can visit tiny.

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Speaker 2: Dot c C forward slash call AXP.

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Speaker 1: We would certainly love to hear from you, and we

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are open to have our minds changed. In fact, I

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was once a believer and it was information, data, logic

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arguments that brought me to the position where I'm no

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longer a believer. So you know now the right information

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might actually bring me back. Before we get started, though,

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I'm going to do one quick announcement. We have one

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theist already waiting in the wings. The Atheist Experience is

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a product of the Atheist Community of Boston, a five

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o' one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion

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of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of

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religion government. We are try streaming tonight, as we already said,

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So you're going to see us on TikTok.

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Speaker 2: You're going to see us on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: Actually you're going to see us twice on YouTube, and

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you can call in using one of three different means.

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You can call the number on the screen. You can

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use the tiny dot c CE link and you can

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also call in using.

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Speaker 2: The TikTok app.

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Speaker 1: And we do also request that anyone who calls in

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is over the age of eighteen years old.

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Speaker 2: We don't talk to children. We leave that up to

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the priests.

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Speaker 1: And we would love to hear about whatever your theory

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is for God. And maybe you'll if you don't at

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least convince us, maybe you'll convince somebody in the audience.

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Speaker 2: So today's your day. Go ahead and pray to God.

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Speaker 1: Remember he says, if Jesus said in the Olivant Discourse,

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when they drag you in front of rulers and judges,

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don't worry about what you'll say, because the Holy Spirit

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will give you utterance. So you don't have to worry

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about what you're going to say when you call in.

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Just call in and the Holy Spirit will give you utterance.

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And we'll take it as it comes. And the last

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thing I say is we do read superchats during the

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live stream and at the end of the live stream

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if there's extra leftover, So if you have a question

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or something for Scott or myself, or even perhaps a

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comment on one of the guests. You're welcome to send

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it in over super chat and we'll grab those super

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chats as we have availability. It's a great way to

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support the live stream and it's a great way to

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interact with the with the hosts.

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Speaker 2: As the listening audience, because.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, reading all of the comments is not really possible

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while we're actually debating.

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Speaker 2: But we do read all the super jest, if we.

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Speaker 5: Did, it would be incredibly boring. It would be just us.

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Speaker 3: They're watching reading it during the whole half of the

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show right there.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely right. So we've got Isaac waiting to get in.

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Speaker 1: Isaac's calling in from Alabama and wants to talk about

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God's existence.

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Speaker 2: Well, welcome in, Isaac. You're on XP with Scott and Justin.

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How are you doing.

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Speaker 6: I'm all right? How about you?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing all right? Thanks for asking.

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Speaker 5: Hey Isaac, Hey, I mean, it'll be real.

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Speaker 6: It's my first time doing anything like this, so forgive

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me if I get a little nervous. But so it's

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my first time watching you guys.

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Speaker 2: You know what, It's okay to be nervous. Scott been

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doing this for a while.

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Speaker 1: I've been doing this for a while, and even before

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the beginning of every episode, I take a series of

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deep breaths and just kind of let the air in,

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let the old air out, calm your nerves, and letter rip.

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We're as long as you're kind to us, will always

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be kind to you. So how about we start with

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some simple back and forth.

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Speaker 2: What type of God do you believe in?

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Speaker 1: And what do you think would be good evidence for

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that God?

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Speaker 6: Well, I'm a Christian, kind of non denominational. I believe

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in a one God and a triune God, and I

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believe that he exists based off the not just the Gospels,

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but the history of it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you think that Jesus exists or God exists

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because of the historical references.

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Speaker 6: All right, you cut out for a moment.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that the historicity of the Bible proves

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that Jesus existed or that God existed?

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Speaker 4: I think it's.

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Speaker 6: Easier to prove that Jesus if we're going off of

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eyewitness accounts. I think it's safe to say that God

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does exist.

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Speaker 2: Sure, Well, let me start with a couple questions.

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Speaker 1: One question I would have is I think I agree

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with you that Jesus was a real person and probably

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a lot of the people in the New Testament. Probably

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most of the people in the New Testament are probably

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real people. But the reason why I don't think that

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this proves God in any way is because I've read

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a lot of other texts, and a lot of these

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other texts, like the Babylonian Chronicles and other ancient e

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Eastern writings. We've got lots of like real historical events

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that are described, real historical people that are described, but

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I don't believe in their mythological claims, Like for example,

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the Cyrus Cylinder, when King Cyrus came in and defeated

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what was left of the Babylonians after the Meads, depending

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on which historical Sourcy reading after the meats got ahold

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of them.

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Speaker 2: He actually credits Marduke with the victory.

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Speaker 1: But like, obviously I don't believe in Marduke, even though

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I believe in King Cyrus right, so I would apply

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the same to the Bible.

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Speaker 2: I agree that Jesus was probably real.

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Speaker 1: I agree that the Bible records some historical events, but

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I don't have a good reason to believe in the

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mythological claims, given that ancient texts make a lot of

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claims that are mixing historicity with their mythology, and.

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Speaker 6: That's totally understandable. But I think that, well, it's the

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reason I'm a Christian. I think that christ and specifically Christianity,

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is different from them. And at first he may say, well,

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you know, it's just another religion and you can put

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them all in the same box of you know, mythology.

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But I don't think there's ever been quite the same

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standards of proof put upon Christianity as the other religions.

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I think it's I think it's pretty easy to say

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more dukes didn't have any hand in that victory that day.

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I think it's well, what do the okay? So I'm

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not familiar with that entirely. But was it the king

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that said that? Was it his transcribers or was it

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like eyewitnesses.

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Speaker 1: So typically the kings, not all the kings. So there

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were some kings that could write, and the Neo Assyrian king,

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some of the late ones were really braggadocious about.

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Speaker 2: Their ability to read and write.

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Speaker 1: Whether or not Cyrus could reader write, I don't know.

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But the ones that couldn't read or write had scribes

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that would take their dictation.

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Speaker 2: So that's why, like the Cyrus cylinder.

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Speaker 1: Even if he's not writing it, it's still written in

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the first person.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well that is just one person, though. That said that,

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for those that also transcribed it for him. I suppose

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I heard somewhere that for Christ there was about four

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hundred eyewitnesses.

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Speaker 2: Can you name any of it? I know we lost.

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I think we lost the audio.

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Speaker 6: Look at the chemistesses writing down what they saw.

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Speaker 2: Can you say that again? Your audio cut out for

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a second.

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Speaker 6: Yours did too. I'm so sorry. It's probably my phone.

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I think that when it comes to Christ, the number

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of eyewitnesses, I believe there was about four hundred of them.

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But quote me if I'm wrong. Don't quote me if

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I'm wrong. Actually, but I told you I'm nervous, okay,

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of eyewitnesses. The amount of eyewitnesses to Christ's resurrection, I

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think is the determining factor versus a king just making

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a claim on his own.

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Speaker 1: Sure, Now, the eyewitnesses, I would say, are I don't know.

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Speaker 2: In terms of eyewitnesses, very few. And I'll explain what

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I mean.

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Speaker 1: So the in First Trinthians fifteen, Paul mentions that Christ

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appeared to the disciples, and then he appeared to five hundred.

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Speaker 2: We didn't name any of the five hundred.

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Speaker 1: We have no idea who they are, and not one

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of them left us any writings to know who they

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are or what they saw, So that, to me is

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just a nonsensical claim. If I said, hey, listen, I

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actually last week I rose from the dead, and Scott

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saw it, and so did five hundred others. Well, the

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fact that I didn't tell you who the five hundred

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others kind of makes that claim a little bit useless

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because you can't go and see who they are, you

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can't collect the evidence. It's just an unverifiable claim, right.

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Speaker 6: That's understandable. But was he supposed to write down which camps,

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what families? Was he supposed to name every individual? I mean,

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Roman historians did the same thing, and that's treated as

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history as well though, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, But what I'm saying is we don't know that

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the five hundred people existed, and not a single one

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of them wrote.

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Speaker 2: Anything or left anything for us, So to.

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Speaker 1: Me, saying that there were that many witnesses is kind

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of useless. Like, for example, in Pacidus and Suetonius, we

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read about a healing miracle that Vespasian did, so he

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healed because the God therapist gave a vision the two

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different gentlemen, one that was blind and one who had

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a lame leg, and Syrapis came to them in a

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dream that says, hey, listen, if you go and beseech

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the help of Vespasian, he'll lay his hands on you

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and you'll get healed. And Vespasian is like, what that

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doesn't make any sense, And then his advisors were like, hey,

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try it. And so it says that he tried it

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in front of a large multitude of witnesses and both

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of them were healed by the power of therapist. Like,

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would you agree that then a multitude of people witness

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therapists using Vespasian to heal people.

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Speaker 6: Well, you know I wouldn't. But for me, what makes

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it a little bit different. You know, it's a little

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different from Paul's claim of five hundred. But the other people,

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like the other apostles, the other twelve right then, each

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individually writing their own eyewitness accounts is what I think

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makes it unique, and not just him saying there are

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five hundred people there, but other people also saying the

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same things, witnessing the same miracles and writing it down,

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you know, each in their.

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Speaker 1: Own So we've got two opposed accounts of Vespasian. Now

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when it comes to the eyewitnesses of Jesus, I don't

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know who we're talking about. Like, so, Mark wasn't an eyewitness,

319
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He's the cousin of Barnabas. If Mark even wrote Mark

320
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according to you know, history, we don't have a good

321
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reason to believe that. But if he did, it's just

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a cousin of Barnabas who was writing, you know, three

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decades or more after Jesus died. And then Matthew and Luke,

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whoever wrote those Gospels, copied for Mark, which is weird.

325
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I mean Luke admits he wasn't a disciple. I mean

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we know he wasn't a disciple. Matthew was listed as

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one of the disciples, but there's not any good evidence

328
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that Matthew wrote Matthew. And like even the earliest manuscript

329
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P one is our earliest Manu script, it doesn't have

330
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Matthew's name on it, even though it does contain the

331
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section of Matthew where the name would have been included.

332
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So and it's also weird that Matthew copies his own

333
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conversion story from Mark and doesn't change it, Like the

334
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only thing he changes is the name. He changes the

335
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name from Levi to Matthew. And he tells his entire

336
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conversion story in the third person without changing anything, like

337
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even the same word order. It's a very strange behavior.

338
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If you're writing a gospel and you want to tell

339
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about your own conversion story, you're not going to like

340
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just copy it from somebody else who has it met you,

341
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by the way, they don't know who you are. And then,

342
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I mean, obviously, John to me is probably the most

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preposterous the Gospel of John. The authors admit that there's

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multiple authors. John never claims to write any of that,

345
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and the title Johannine or according to acta Jo in Greek,

346
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just means according to John.

347
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Speaker 2: We don't know which John.

348
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Speaker 1: In fact, in chapter one, Baptist is giving the testimony.

349
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In chapter twenty one, maybe John the Disciple is giving

350
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the testimony. It says the disciple who Jesus loved, and

351
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it's being recorded by multiple scribes who identify themselves as

352
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a Wei. We know that his testimony is true, So

353
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John was obviously not written by Johnny. There's just a

354
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group of people that are going around theoretically collecting testimony,

355
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but happening in the nineties, like in the like the

356
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four decades after Christ died. Somehow these people are collecting,

357
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you know, accounts and witnesses. It seems like what's more

358
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likely happening is they're collecting fragments that people said were

359
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from these people, and then they're they're just assuming that

360
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they're legit. But that when it comes to the eyewitnesses,

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those are the only ones I know about.

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Speaker 6: Well, I'm not sure about the historians who saw him

363
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like there's Esus and as such, I'm fairly new to apologetics.

364
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I do think though, that they're to be some sort

365
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of reason. I know this sounds like a cop out,

366
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but to you, why do you think people think that

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those manuscripts are.

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Speaker 1: Incredible Because they haven't studied the history, right, So even

369
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if they wrote, let's say Matthew wrote something originally, we

370
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don't really have a good reason to believe that what.

371
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Speaker 2: We have is what Matthew wrote. Same thing with Mark.

372
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Speaker 1: We know for a fact that they were being edited

373
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and copied and whatnot after what we would consider the originals.

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I'll give an example of what I'm talking about. So

375
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there's a late ending of Mark. I don't have my

376
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Bible with me. I guess I've used the Internet. But

377
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the late ending of Mark ADS is really interesting snippet.

378
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It was added hundreds of years after Mark was already finished.

379
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It doesn't show up until late and it basically says

380
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that Jesus first appeared after the resurrection to Mary Magdalene

381
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and then to the others, which is weird because that

382
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statement contradicts the beginning of Mark sixteen, where it says

383
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that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb with the women,

384
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not by her. You might be asking, well, why the

385
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heck would somebody add that to the ending of Mark, Like, oh,

386
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because it was added after John came out. See when

387
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the Gospel of John came out, which is after Mark.

388
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Gospel of John depicts Mary Maglin going to the tomb

389
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alone and seeing Jesus alone before anyone else does. And

390
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so they're like, oh, shoot, we need to add a

391
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snippet at the end of Mark to make sure Mark

392
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and John actually agree with each other. But what they

393
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didn't realize is in trying to make them agree with

394
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each other, they created a huge problem, which is at

395
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the beginning of Mark, it says that she came with

396
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the other women, and it says that as they were

397
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going to the tomb, they were going one to spice

398
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the body, that's what you dressed, and spice the body

399
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to keep it from smelling as it decayed, and they

400
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were arguing about, hey, who's going to roll away the stone? Well,

401
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,960
listen if Mary Magdalene had already gone to the tomb,

402
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because it says in John that once she got there,

403
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the stone was already rolled away and then she saw Jesus.

404
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If she had already done all that, it wouldn't make

405
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sense that she'd be going back the tomb with a

406
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gaggle of girls to spice the body, knowing it's not there,

407
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and asking who's going to roll away the stone, knowing

408
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that the stone's already been rolled away. And this is

409
00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,680
a really good piece of evidence that hey, people have

410
00:20:12,759 --> 00:20:15,079
been tampering with these manuscripts for a long time.

411
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Speaker 2: And there's actually a lot of examples of this.

412
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Speaker 6: Okay, well, you see I've never actually heard that. Well,

413
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,160
I've heard people mention it before, but not exactly in

414
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,640
that depth. So you're obviously very well read. The guy,

415
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the filter guy who had me before I went on,

416
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,920
told me that, and it's true I heard that you

417
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,440
had read through the Bible. I have it like totally memorized.

418
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So I think what I need to do is go

419
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and read the apologetics that counter apologetics what you had

420
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,680
just mentioned, because I truly don't have any idea how

421
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:46,319
to respond to that.

422
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Speaker 3: If I could jump in here, really, I have a

423
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,640
question for you, Isaac. By the way, I have on

424
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my notes here stay out of Justin's way.

425
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Speaker 5: So I'm gonna try to do that as much as

426
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i can.

427
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 3: But I did have a question for a hear and

428
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,839
that is I'm going to ask you the question first,

429
00:21:02,839 --> 00:21:04,599
and then I have a little explainer i'd like to

430
00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:07,559
give it. And the question is what good does five

431
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,960
hundred eye witnesses get you? And so I want you

432
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to think of that in the context of this this

433
00:21:13,279 --> 00:21:19,039
idea that extraordinary events require extraordinary evidence. And that's at

434
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,440
least the way I read it, is that if you

435
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,279
want to make a claim of something extraordinary, you can't

436
00:21:24,279 --> 00:21:28,240
rely on the mountains of everyday, mundane common evidence that

437
00:21:28,279 --> 00:21:31,960
we have. If you're asking, do you believe that you

438
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,240
know Julius Caesar existed, Yeah, we have some evidence that

439
00:21:36,279 --> 00:21:38,559
he existed, and some of that evidence might apply to

440
00:21:38,599 --> 00:21:41,319
other people as well. But the claim is that this

441
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,839
a person exists, and we have lots of evidence that

442
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,759
people exist. We have lots of evidence that some of

443
00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:50,079
those people attain the rank of Caesar, et cetera, et cetera,

444
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,079
et cetera. So if you're making a claim that Jesus existed,

445
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,880
that's one thing. And you know, Justin was saying that,

446
00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,240
you know, he kind of thinks that Jesus probably existed,

447
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,920
and I'm kind of in that same boat too. I'm

448
00:22:02,079 --> 00:22:04,559
I'm fine accepting that there was a that there was

449
00:22:04,599 --> 00:22:07,920
a rabbi during that time named Jesus, who was who

450
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,319
was preaching this message and so on. The question, though,

451
00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:15,279
is related to whether or not this Jesus person was

452
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a god, And so I would ask you, we have

453
00:22:18,279 --> 00:22:22,319
these stories and these eyewitness reports, and eyewitness reports we

454
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,960
know are a little can be sketchy in some circumstances,

455
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:31,240
but we use eyewitness reports to to justify common beliefs.

456
00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:34,039
If my wife says, yeah, I just got back from McDonald's,

457
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,279
you know, I'm gonna believe her, you know, because we

458
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,359
do that kind of thing all the time, and it's

459
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,799
a common event and requires common basic evidence. But if

460
00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:46,079
you're saying that something outstanding is happening, I think the

461
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,119
bar goes a little bit higher because now we have

462
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,240
to we have to weigh what's more likely that the

463
00:22:51,279 --> 00:22:56,279
stories are true or that these people got the story wrong. Okay,

464
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,160
there's lots of ways they could get the story wrong.

465
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,519
They could be mistaken, they could be lying, they could

466
00:23:01,599 --> 00:23:05,599
be misquoted, they could be you know, passing on something

467
00:23:05,599 --> 00:23:08,279
that they misheard from someone else. There's lots of reasons

468
00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:10,799
that somebody could get a story like this wrong. And yes,

469
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,319
I agree, it's way less likely for five hundred people.

470
00:23:14,599 --> 00:23:18,079
And again I'm stipulating the five hundred witnesses here, but

471
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,119
it's even less likely for five hundred people to get

472
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,160
that story wrong. But we know that that probability is

473
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,880
not zero. We know that it's still possible that five

474
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,880
hundred people could get the story wrong. So the question

475
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,880
that I would ask you, and piggybacking on the challenges

476
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,599
that that Justin gave, is why do you think the

477
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,440
fact that the story is true is more likely an

478
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,000
explanation for the stories than they were just wrong? Because

479
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:51,599
that bar that somebody as God is understandably much higher

480
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,359
than saying somebody exists.

481
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:55,279
Speaker 5: What do you have to say about that?

482
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,599
Speaker 6: Well, I think that well, the prophecies were filled David's

483
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,200
Masoneric prophecies and songs and Isaiah and the like. But

484
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,880
when it comes to the eyewitness accounts being credible or not,

485
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,880
I know, even today Eyewinness accounts can be thrown out

486
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,240
in court for being you know, they're not admissible in court.

487
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,799
But when we're talking about history that ancient, I think

488
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,160
all we have to rely on are the a the

489
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,119
artifacts they left and be the eyewitness accounts and what

490
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,279
those people wrote. Right, So I mean things like the

491
00:24:28,279 --> 00:24:31,519
shroud of Turin. I mean even NASA took a look

492
00:24:31,559 --> 00:24:34,039
at that and they still can't give a proper explanation.

493
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,319
I mean I believe, and don't quote me on this,

494
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,839
but the light, the amount of light that would be

495
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,359
needed to make an imprint on that level would be

496
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,480
so immense that have to come from some sort of

497
00:24:45,559 --> 00:24:48,960
nuclear reaction, and then.

498
00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 2: In the nuclear reaction would destroy the cloth.

499
00:24:52,599 --> 00:24:54,839
Speaker 6: I think they said the amount of light generated. I

500
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,599
don't know about just trying the cloth itself, but.

501
00:24:58,319 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: Like it would it would probably get annihily from like

502
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,519
like alpha radiation or gamma radiation or whatever type of

503
00:25:05,599 --> 00:25:07,680
radiation is going, they're going to be appealing to, Like

504
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,720
it has a tendency to like destroy and decay you know,

505
00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:15,599
other other molecules, other atoms.

506
00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:18,079
Speaker 3: But even if we accepted this, even even if we

507
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,559
even if we stipulated boy, a lot of light was

508
00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:24,160
needed to to you know, make these markings on this

509
00:25:24,319 --> 00:25:27,480
on this cloth. So what does that get you closer

510
00:25:27,519 --> 00:25:30,039
to a God? You know, God can't do that unless

511
00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:33,680
God exists. So that's really something tying thing. Saying that

512
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,160
God caused something is really something that should be addressed

513
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,799
further on down the line, because if there is no God,

514
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,480
then that's just an unexplained phenomenon, right, And so if

515
00:25:46,599 --> 00:25:50,920
unless you already are assuming that God exists, God can't

516
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,079
do that to a cloth.

517
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 5: If God doesn't exist, would you agree with that.

518
00:25:55,079 --> 00:25:57,559
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, you'd have to assume God exists. But I

519
00:25:57,599 --> 00:26:00,000
think if you're coming from it from a scientific perspective,

520
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,240
there's still no answer.

521
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 5: So I don't want to go does no answer get

522
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,160
you to an answer of God?

523
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 7: Though?

524
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 3: That's that's a big difference between saying between admitting that

525
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,400
you don't have an answer, which happens. Scientists do that

526
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,920
all the time. They say, you know, we don't, we

527
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,119
just don't know. We see this thing, we see, we

528
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,160
have this evidence that there must have been a nuclear

529
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,440
explosion or nuclear reaction or something or that amount of light,

530
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:26,839
whatever it is. But then making the jump to a

531
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,039
god must have done it, that that I think is

532
00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:33,039
specious and I think that's unsupported as well.

533
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 6: Well. I'm i'd like to man, you know, that's a

534
00:26:38,279 --> 00:26:40,240
good point. That really is a good point. I really

535
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,880
need to brush up on my apologetics. Man, you showed me.

536
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,200
But I think that if there is a lack of

537
00:26:46,279 --> 00:26:49,799
explanation from any human means, and it has to be

538
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,000
outside of science or understanding, because why, it has to

539
00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:56,279
be outside of our current understanding of what we can do,

540
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,880
what we can do now, of what we can measure.

541
00:26:58,920 --> 00:26:59,799
Now that's a way.

542
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,519
Speaker 3: What we know that we can do. Now there's a difference.

543
00:27:02,599 --> 00:27:06,279
Do you see the difference? Yeah, So certain we might

544
00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:08,000
be able to do things that we don't know we

545
00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:10,480
can do. And so then going back to what I

546
00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:13,640
was saying earlier, if that's an if that's a possible explanation,

547
00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:17,599
if that's how you're qualifying possible explanations by just saying

548
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,440
you know it fits the fits the description.

549
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 5: Okay, that fits the discretion. So again you have the

550
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,880
same thing. How do you know your description, your reasoning,

551
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,279
how do you know your conclusion is more likely than

552
00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:35,200
some other more mundane conclusions? And a nuclear reaction is

553
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:35,680
is is.

554
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 3: An unlow is A is a rare phenomenon, but it's

555
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,000
still we know it's really we have evidence that that

556
00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:45,359
kind of thing happens, not like not.

557
00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 6: Like in a tomb, though I don't think at least

558
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,279
our current understanding. Uh. I don't want to make a

559
00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:54,039
God of the gap sort of argument, because I know

560
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,720
that's been had a million holes poked through it. But

561
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,839
how are you going to mention or not mentioned but

562
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,319
measures something that's just unmeasurable. I mean, we don't know

563
00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:08,920
how it got there, and that felt you're totally reasonable

564
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,799
to say, well, how can you attribute that to God?

565
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,400
You're totally reasonable in saying that, and.

566
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 2: It makes it suggest.

567
00:28:16,079 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: So we've had two different scientists, one of them Italian

568
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,960
and one of not that I have actually recreated the

569
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,480
shroud using methods that would have been available in the

570
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,680
time period where it was carbonated to, namely the twelve

571
00:28:30,759 --> 00:28:33,160
hundreds and the thirteen hundreds, so.

572
00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:36,599
Speaker 2: We do know that it is possible to make it. Yeah.

573
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, There are at least two different scientists that we

574
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,119
know of who have actually published who have been able

575
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,400
to replicate the shroud the one. Let me grab you

576
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,839
the name of the one that I'm specifically thinking of.

577
00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: I've got his name written down here. Let's see, I'm.

578
00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:56,839
Speaker 6: Looking at a Google. I'm looking at Google right now,

579
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,400
the name of jb Renaldo and neutron and tone of

580
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:01,880
missions that.

581
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: No, I'm not, I'm looking for the guy who actually

582
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,359
recreated the shroud.

583
00:29:06,839 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: Give me one second.

584
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: So the guy that we're looking for is going to

585
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,599
be I.

586
00:29:12,599 --> 00:29:16,119
Speaker 2: Got the article right here. His name is.

587
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: He's a professor if I remember correctly, and it's a

588
00:29:20,119 --> 00:29:24,519
it's a super difficult, difficult name. It's Luigi Garla Shelley.

589
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,039
And don't ask me to pronounce or to spell Garla Shelley.

590
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,559
Luji Garis Shelley was on a mission to recreate the

591
00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:35,559
shroud using archaic methods, and you did a pretty good

592
00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:39,519
job of it. And I think we've got a lot

593
00:29:39,559 --> 00:29:43,039
of problems with the shroud. One that it doesn't make

594
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,039
sense from a like a three D mapping standpoint, Like

595
00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:50,400
if you've seen if you lay a cloth around something

596
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,599
that's round, and then you've flattened it out like the shroud,

597
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,680
well the face becomes like elongated.

598
00:29:57,039 --> 00:30:01,839
Speaker 2: You should see the ears like out rather than.

599
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: Out here, because it was wrapping around the head and

600
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,319
that we don't see that on the shroud. The other

601
00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:11,200
problem is the Gospel of John states that he was

602
00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:14,319
wrapped in multiple linens, including a head covering, meaning he

603
00:30:14,359 --> 00:30:16,359
had a head covering, and then he was wrapped as

604
00:30:16,359 --> 00:30:17,640
well in multiple linens.

605
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: It wasn't actually customary to.

606
00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: Just lay a dude on a sheet and then drape

607
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:23,480
the other part over top of him.

608
00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: That wasn't typically how it was done.

609
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: So the shroud of Turin would contradict the biblical account

610
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,640
as well. And then when it was discovered, the pope

611
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,119
at the time and the bishop who was involved in

612
00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:41,400
investigating the discovery found the guy who brought it forward,

613
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,400
and the guy who brought it forward said that it

614
00:30:43,759 --> 00:30:46,720
wasn't real, And so I guess I don't really I

615
00:30:46,759 --> 00:30:49,359
don't know why we're still like trying to figure out,

616
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,000
like if the shroud is archaic since it was a

617
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,880
confessed forgery at a time where church relics were, you know,

618
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,440
abundantly being forged.

619
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,319
Speaker 6: Well, I suppose, I mean, I suppose it's continued to

620
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,720
be prevalent because of NASA's analysis of it.

621
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: What did NASA say and where can I find their article?

622
00:31:08,839 --> 00:31:10,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm curious to read that.

623
00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 6: Let me let me look because maybe hearsay didn't look

624
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,480
at the Shroud of Turin.

625
00:31:21,599 --> 00:31:27,559
Speaker 1: Because I'm aware that there was there was some imaging

626
00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:30,920
done in the seventies, but it's not recent and that

627
00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:37,519
same I don't know that same time period. It went

628
00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:40,839
through a battery of different tests, including carbon dating from

629
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,440
like six different laboratories, and they dated it to the

630
00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:46,039
to the thirteenth century.

631
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,839
Speaker 6: Well, the problem is there was repairs done to the

632
00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:50,680
Shroud of Turin because there was fought.

633
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,559
Speaker 2: That's been disproven. That's been widely disproven.

634
00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: That's a claim that even the people who did the

635
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,559
carbon testing has refuted.

636
00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:01,759
Speaker 6: Okay, well I'm not aware of that. I'll have to

637
00:32:01,759 --> 00:32:03,960
go look at that after this. But this is just

638
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,680
the AI over you. Yes, scientists affiliated with NASA another

639
00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:11,359
US institutions examined the Shroud of Turin in nineteen seventy.

640
00:32:11,839 --> 00:32:14,079
It's part of the Shroud of sre In research project,

641
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:15,440
the stu R.

642
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: Right, so not NASA.

643
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,359
Speaker 6: So yeah, it would appear they're just scientists that were affiliated.

644
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,839
Speaker 5: Right, So the sientists were NASA affiliated. Right.

645
00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: That's kind of a weird way to phrase it, right,

646
00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:34,400
It's kind of like they're trying to borrow NASA's branding capital,

647
00:32:34,519 --> 00:32:34,759
you know.

648
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,599
Speaker 5: I mean, what was they.

649
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 6: I mean, if you say you're a marine, but you

650
00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:46,480
retired once a marine, always a marine, right.

651
00:32:47,359 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: But that's different if you're that's different than saying that

652
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:51,920
the Marine Corps studied it.

653
00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:52,559
Speaker 6: Right.

654
00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, good point.

655
00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:55,839
Speaker 1: So we don't we don't know if this person was

656
00:32:55,839 --> 00:32:59,200
a scientist like the person that's associated with NASA. We

657
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,359
don't know if they were a scientist with NASA or

658
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,519
a janitor. We don't know anything about the person.

659
00:33:04,279 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 6: Very true. By the way, you guys are really great

660
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,160
at this. I would this is really eye opening for me.

661
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:11,720
I really need to read up more.

662
00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: Well, listen, we've been doing this.

663
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: For quite some time. Right, So it's not your fault.

664
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,599
You said you're new to apologetics.

665
00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:19,839
Speaker 2: We'll just let you.

666
00:33:19,839 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: Know that we've heard like every talking point in the book,

667
00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:28,039
and we already we already have opinions on it that

668
00:33:28,119 --> 00:33:30,640
are pretty easy to substantiate.

669
00:33:32,039 --> 00:33:34,559
Speaker 2: But let me ask you a question. I don't want

670
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,559
to appile too much on you.

671
00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: You're being like super good faith, but I think you

672
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,480
know one of the things you said earlier that I

673
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:43,599
think for me was one of the reasons why I

674
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,640
left Christianity was this idea that Jesus like fulfilled all

675
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,400
these messianic prophecies. I used to believe that, but then

676
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,920
I studied the Hebrew Bible and he didn't fill anything.

677
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,200
And like I get that, there are some people that

678
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,640
will be like, well, yeah, but look, he fulfilled these psalms.

679
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,039
But like, psalms aren't actually prophecies, Like a prophecy is

680
00:34:03,079 --> 00:34:05,559
like a real form of speech where God says like, hey,

681
00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:09,320
something's going to happen, and then it happens, and somebody

682
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,039
writing in the psalms just because we find a psalm

683
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:16,559
where like one verse sounds vaguely familiar that something happened later,

684
00:34:17,039 --> 00:34:20,320
it doesn't automatically make it prophetic. That's not how prophecy works.

685
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,280
So like, I don't maybe you can help me out.

686
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,559
I don't know a single Messianic prophecy that Jesus ever fulfilled.

687
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 6: I know he had unfurled a scroll from I believe

688
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,320
Isaiah forty or forty.

689
00:34:31,039 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: Two, almost it was Isaiah sixty one in Luke chapter four.

690
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 6: Oh man, I was close. But what really caught my

691
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,039
eye there was he didn't read the full prophecy. And

692
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:43,599
as far as my understanding goes, the second half of

693
00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:46,960
that prophecy is understood to be his second coming, what

694
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:47,719
would be fulfilled?

695
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 7: There?

696
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,559
Speaker 2: You go? Perfect? All right, we touched on a very

697
00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:50,920
good point.

698
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. In Luke chapter four, he's in the synagogue and

699
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,559
they handled the Isaiah scroll and he reads, the spirit

700
00:34:56,599 --> 00:34:58,039
of the Lord is upon me because he.

701
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,639
Speaker 2: Has annoyed to me to bring good news to the poor.

702
00:34:59,679 --> 00:35:02,599
Speaker 1: He said, to proclaim release of the captives, recovery of

703
00:35:02,639 --> 00:35:04,599
sight to the blind, although recovery of site the blind's

704
00:35:04,639 --> 00:35:08,360
not actually in the Hebrew Bible. That's an addition, to

705
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,639
set free those who are oppressed, and to proclaim the

706
00:35:10,679 --> 00:35:11,679
year of the Lord's favor.

707
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:12,559
Speaker 2: And he rolled up the.

708
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: Scroll, gave it back to the attendant, set down, and

709
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,280
then it says, today the scripture has been fulfilled in

710
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,519
your hearing. Okay, Now the problem, and you already know

711
00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:24,599
what the problem is because you kind of mentioned it,

712
00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:27,159
is that if you go to where this originates, originates

713
00:35:27,159 --> 00:35:29,800
from Isaiah sixty one, like, it doesn't actually look like

714
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,039
it's about Jesus because you've got just this vague block

715
00:35:33,079 --> 00:35:34,960
of text. The spirit of the Lord is upon me,

716
00:35:35,079 --> 00:35:37,199
so on and so forth, and then the rest of it.

717
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,840
He stops right before it says to proclaim the year

718
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,320
of the Lord's favor. He stops, and then it goes

719
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,519
on and the day of vengeance of our God. That's

720
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:51,119
one sentence, the year of the Lord's favor and the

721
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,599
day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,

722
00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:57,320
to provide for those who mourn in Zion. And then

723
00:35:57,519 --> 00:35:59,480
you already notice if you keep reading, like a verse four,

724
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,119
he clearly talking about the restoration of the Israelite people

725
00:36:03,159 --> 00:36:05,840
after captivity, says they will build up the ancient ruins,

726
00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:09,440
they shall raise up the former devastations, they shall repair

727
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:10,880
the ruined cities.

728
00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: So on and so forth.

729
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: So like if the prophecy, if we're reading the prophecy,

730
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,199
and it's clearly about the restorrection of Israel and Jesus

731
00:36:18,199 --> 00:36:21,119
didn't restore the tribes of Israel, or the land or

732
00:36:21,159 --> 00:36:21,639
the cities.

733
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 2: It just seems to me like he didn't fulfill this.

734
00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: And if you're saying, well, he partially fulfilled it, I mean,

735
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,440
to be fair, it's kind of a meaningless point, like

736
00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:32,880
I've partially fulfilled this as long as I get to

737
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,920
fulfill the mundane parts that anybody could do and just

738
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,559
say the spirit of Lord God is upon me because

739
00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:39,360
he anointed me.

740
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean anyone could have done that, John.

741
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,039
Speaker 1: De Baptists, I'm a brock Cochba, Like there's nobody, not

742
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,679
a single prophet within Judaism couldn't claim something of that nature.

743
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,239
It's to me saying that he partially fulfilled it, and

744
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,880
then the part that he partially fulfilled is mundane and

745
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,440
anyone could have done it to me, just tells me

746
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,360
that this guy didn't fulfill any prophecies.

747
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,159
Speaker 6: Well, I believe there were also prior prophecies that said

748
00:37:04,679 --> 00:37:07,199
you would be strung up. I think is that in

749
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,800
Daniel or is that in another book of the prophets?

750
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,880
But I think when it's talking about around verse four

751
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,119
rebuilding the old ruins, they shall raise up former desolations

752
00:37:17,519 --> 00:37:19,480
and such, and they wait to bear the ruined cities.

753
00:37:19,679 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 3: I think, Isaac, could I jump in here real quick

754
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,480
before you move on to a new prophecy. Do you

755
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,519
what's your response on what Justin had to say about

756
00:37:27,519 --> 00:37:29,880
that prophecy. Do you still think that was a fulfilled

757
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,639
prophecy or are you setting that aside and then going

758
00:37:32,679 --> 00:37:35,000
to the next one because it seems like it might

759
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:35,639
be a deflection.

760
00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:37,519
Speaker 5: I want to give you the benefit of the doubt.

761
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 6: Ologies. I think what this here is about in Isaiah

762
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,159
sixty one is when it's referring to the second half

763
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:49,199
of the prophecy, stopping mid sentence. I think it's talking

764
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:53,119
about tribulation, and not just tribulation, but the millennial kingdom

765
00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:55,840
and Israel being raised up, you know, heavenly Jerusalem and

766
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,679
the such. So why that's my impression, But.

767
00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:01,519
Speaker 2: Why would we believe that?

768
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,559
Speaker 6: I know there's concepts of heavenly and earthly Jerusalem referenced

769
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,960
earlier book. I can't quote you where.

770
00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, but so if a if a prophecy, let's say

771
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,639
the prophecy has five stipulations, and the first stipulation is

772
00:38:18,679 --> 00:38:19,239
really easy.

773
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:20,519
Speaker 2: It's just hey, the.

774
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: Spirit of Lord God is upon me, and I'm going

775
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,079
to do some really cool stuff. I want to help

776
00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:26,599
a lot of people. And then the rest of it

777
00:38:26,639 --> 00:38:29,480
I just didn't do. Like, don't you find it weird

778
00:38:29,519 --> 00:38:31,480
that you'd be like, oh yeah, that the other stuff,

779
00:38:31,519 --> 00:38:33,760
the more difficult stuff in that prophecy, He'll do that

780
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:34,119
when he.

781
00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:36,199
Speaker 2: Comes back to me. That sounds like a cop out.

782
00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: Listen, if you've got a five point prophecy and Jesus

783
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,519
only fulfills one point in the prophecy, it sounds to

784
00:38:41,519 --> 00:38:44,159
me like he's just not the fulfillment of the prophecy.

785
00:38:44,679 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 6: Well, what about the other prophecies he did fulfill? Though? What?

786
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 2: I again, I don't know of a single one.

787
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,639
Speaker 6: Let me do some google and quote on. But go ahead, prophecy.

788
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,039
Speaker 1: You're gonna put a list of three hundred and fifty

789
00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:01,840
one prophecies and it's going to start in Genesis three

790
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,840
point fifteen, and I promise I know.

791
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: Every one of them.

792
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:06,159
Speaker 6: All right.

793
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 5: I hope you're justin.

794
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,679
Speaker 3: I hope your evening is free tonight, because we're gonna

795
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,400
we're gonna go through the entire list tonight.

796
00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 6: Oh no, I think you're dragon through all that.

797
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:18,599
Speaker 1: My first live stream. Ever, I was on TikTok of

798
00:39:18,639 --> 00:39:22,320
the years ago. It's not recorded. I went through that list.

799
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,159
I had like a two hour window. I was like,

800
00:39:24,199 --> 00:39:26,079
I don't know how many can I get through in

801
00:39:26,199 --> 00:39:29,199
a period of two hours, And I got through like

802
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:30,840
over a hundred of them. It was pretty fun.

803
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 6: All Right, that's impressive. I mean, that's that's definitely a

804
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,800
feat to have all those answers memorized. But I guess

805
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,599
for me, and this is what I'm semi familiar with,

806
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,039
is the lineage you know, the stump of Jesse.

807
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: Oh sure, this is one of my favorite topics.

808
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: So Isaiah eleven, okay, uh yeah, Isaiah eleven.

809
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:54,039
Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah.

810
00:39:54,079 --> 00:39:56,119
Speaker 1: So for those who don't know, Isaiah eleven says, a

811
00:39:56,199 --> 00:39:58,719
shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse, and

812
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,320
our branch shall grow out of roots. The spirit the

813
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,639
Lord will rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and

814
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,079
understand so and so forth. So why would we think

815
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:09,760
that this is Jesus.

816
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,599
Speaker 6: Because the lineage can be tracked down in the New

817
00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:16,239
Testament where Mary had come from. That's mine perfect, That's

818
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:17,920
where I think, gotcha.

819
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: Okay, So we're going to turn the into Matthew chapter

820
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,199
one in Luke chapter three.

821
00:40:22,559 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: Now, like you, when I was in church, I had.

822
00:40:26,119 --> 00:40:31,079
Speaker 1: People say that actually Joseph wasn't the daddy, so we

823
00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:35,639
can't trace him back to David. But Mary's lineage is given,

824
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,519
and so we can use Mary's lineage. Mary's lineage is

825
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:42,119
typically attributed to Luke chapter three, and unfortunately, when you

826
00:40:42,159 --> 00:40:44,400
go to Luke chapter three, we don't hear anything about

827
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,480
Mary's lineage. In fact, if you go to verse twenty three,

828
00:40:47,559 --> 00:40:50,719
which is where we see the culmination of the lineage,

829
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,480
because Jesus was about thirty years old when he began

830
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,159
his work, he was the son as was thought of Joseph,

831
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,079
the son of Eli, son of son of Levi.

832
00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: So the lineage in Luke is actually for Joseph.

833
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,679
Speaker 6: Okay, yeah, I've never heard that.

834
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

835
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: And there's another problem actually, because inside of this lineage

836
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:19,800
it traces through Nathan, right. So traditionally the lineage was

837
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,719
supposed to go through King David and then through Solomon.

838
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,760
So if you go to Second Samuel seven, verse twelve

839
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,079
or so, what you'll find is that God made a

840
00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:35,239
promise and it shows up as well in the Book

841
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:35,880
of Kings.

842
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: If I remember.

843
00:41:36,639 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: Correctly, I can grab that in a second, if it

844
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,440
becomes you know, if it becomes relevant. Actually, Psalm eighty

845
00:41:44,519 --> 00:41:46,079
nine is the other place we probably want to look at.

846
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:51,320
Psalm eighty nine. So in Second Samuel seven twelve through fourteen,

847
00:41:52,159 --> 00:41:54,559
it says, when your days are fulfilled, and you'll lie

848
00:41:54,599 --> 00:41:56,920
down with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring

849
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,239
after you, who shall come forth from your body. So

850
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,719
it's got to be a physical offspring. And I will

851
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,599
establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name,

852
00:42:05,639 --> 00:42:07,719
and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

853
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:09,719
And I will be a father to him, and he

854
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,360
shall be a son to me, and so on and

855
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,199
so forth. And this is culmu dating after God gets

856
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,199
done saying this, Solomon takes the throne. This is obviously

857
00:42:18,199 --> 00:42:21,360
talking about the kingdom that has passed down through Solomon.

858
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:26,039
So going through Nathan in the chapter three of Luke's

859
00:42:26,039 --> 00:42:28,840
seems like kind of silly, and we get kind of

860
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,119
the more the same. In Psalm eighty nine, it repeats

861
00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:34,280
the promise, says, you have said, I made a covenant

862
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,119
with my chosen one. I've sworn to my servant David,

863
00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:41,199
I will establish your descendants forever and build your throne

864
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,079
for all generations, and then he says something similar in

865
00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:47,519
thirty three and thirty four. He says, I will not

866
00:42:47,639 --> 00:42:50,920
violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth

867
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,039
from my lips once and for all I have sworn

868
00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:54,000
by my holiness.

869
00:42:54,039 --> 00:42:55,519
Speaker 2: I will not lie to David.

870
00:42:55,599 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: His line shall continue forever, and his throne shall be

871
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,239
before me like the sun. But David's line to the

872
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,519
king to the throne didn't continue forever, and Jesus isn't

873
00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:07,639
part of David's line.

874
00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 6: I mean, does it have to be well, does David's

875
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,960
family have to still reign as kings and queens and

876
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,480
princesses and princes though for that to be fulfilled?

877
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,519
Speaker 1: Well, that's what it says, right, says that the promise

878
00:43:20,599 --> 00:43:23,519
is going to go through Solomon and that he is

879
00:43:23,559 --> 00:43:26,719
going to establish the throne forever. And in fact, we

880
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,280
see this repeated in Jeremiah thirty three. Jeremiah is a

881
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,159
really interesting passage when it comes to Jesus's lineage and kingship,

882
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,280
because in Jeremiah thirty three and twenty two we've got

883
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,920
two very interesting admissions. In thirty three when it talks

884
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,800
about the Messianic age, it says, let's say that the

885
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,599
Lord David shall never lack a man to sit on

886
00:43:47,639 --> 00:43:50,320
the throne of the House of Israel, and the levitical

887
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,639
priests shall never lack a man in my presence to

888
00:43:52,679 --> 00:43:54,800
offer burn offerings, to make grein offerings, and to make

889
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:59,559
sacrifices forever. So unfortunately, this is predicting that the dividic

890
00:43:59,599 --> 00:44:02,079
line is never going to have a break in it

891
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:02,719
at all.

892
00:44:03,159 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 2: And when there's a repeat in.

893
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: A couple other parts of Jeremiah, Jeremiah twenty two thirty,

894
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,559
there's a gentleman who gets cursed Jack Andiah shortened to

895
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,280
Kenaia in some passages.

896
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: He's kind of a wicked king.

897
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,039
Speaker 1: God doesn't like him, and it says, thus, say the

898
00:44:20,079 --> 00:44:23,440
Lord record this man as childless, who shall not succeed

899
00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:26,719
in his days, for none of his offspring shall succeed

900
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,360
in sitting on the throne of David and ruling again

901
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,920
in Judah. So even at the time of Jeremiah, they're

902
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,000
expecting that the rulers of Judah, the rulers who sit

903
00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:40,199
on the throne, are like the physical seed of the

904
00:44:40,199 --> 00:44:44,360
physical offspring of the kings. And it just so happens

905
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,440
that in the Gospel of Matthew that Jesus his lineage

906
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,480
gets traced through Jack and Yah, which means in both lineages,

907
00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:55,360
neither one of them go back to David, and they

908
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,679
both go through an improper line One goes through Nathan

909
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,840
and one goes through Jack Andiah, and none of Jack

910
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:02,800
Andized descendants are allowed to sit on the her own.

911
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 6: Okay, could this pertain to any sort of spiritual kings?

912
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,199
I mean, that's my first thought. Did I know Clents

913
00:45:12,199 --> 00:45:15,119
would be the spiritual king because they were expect to

914
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,880
The Jews were expecting for their Messiah to be a physical.

915
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: King, because that's what the Hebrew Bible says. If you

916
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,400
go to Ezekiel thirty six and thirty seven and go

917
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,360
to the other passage like even Isaiah eleven that you

918
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,559
quoted earlier, which is paralleled in Isaiah two and micahfore

919
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,760
talks about like an actual king that defeats the enemies

920
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,760
of Israel. Even Zachariah nine, verse nine, and ten talk

921
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,599
about the same thing. So the minute we go to

922
00:45:40,639 --> 00:45:42,599
these passages and they're like, Hm, well they didn't really

923
00:45:42,679 --> 00:45:45,639
seem to come true, let's just spiritualize them. Well, it

924
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,519
seems like now the words don't really have any meaning. Like,

925
00:45:48,559 --> 00:45:50,360
once I get to a text, IM say, listen, I

926
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,079
actually don't like what these say at face value. I'm

927
00:45:53,119 --> 00:45:56,119
going to spiritualize them. Is there anything that we can

928
00:45:56,559 --> 00:45:58,920
not make them say? I can make them say they're

929
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,599
about me, as long as I get to ignore the context,

930
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,800
the history and the plane you know, the plane reading

931
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:05,679
of the text.

932
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 6: Well, for me, one of the biggest ones was you know,

933
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,760
he was pierced for our transgressions. Didn't it say that?

934
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,960
Smart in Isaiah? Okay, let me look Isaiah fifty three,

935
00:46:14,639 --> 00:46:17,119
that's where it said that. And then the resurrection because

936
00:46:17,159 --> 00:46:19,519
I'm looking at a list of my own ear Psalm

937
00:46:19,559 --> 00:46:22,280
sixteen ten was not abandoned to the grave.

938
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,159
Speaker 2: Well, we can talk about.

939
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: Any one of those that you want.

940
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,039
Speaker 2: I'm familar with all of them.

941
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:31,639
Speaker 1: I think Isaiah fifty three, if you're reading the Bible

942
00:46:31,679 --> 00:46:37,079
in context, is admittedly about the righteous remmed into Israel.

943
00:46:37,199 --> 00:46:39,039
Speaker 2: And the reason why I believe this is.

944
00:46:39,039 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: One because I've I've read all the prophets, so I

945
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,239
know what the prophets say about the servant. And also

946
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,360
within this section of Isaiah, I've tried to.

947
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:50,679
Speaker 2: Dump too much information on you.

948
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,599
Speaker 1: But the section of Isaiah that we're dealing with is

949
00:46:52,679 --> 00:46:56,199
chapter forty to fifty five, which is generally considered Dutero

950
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,840
or second Isaiah, and it's considered a second author from Isaiah,

951
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,840
somebody that came from his school, because the verbiage is different,

952
00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:07,679
the time period of writing is different, and the text

953
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,199
itself tells you that it comes two hundred years later,

954
00:47:11,079 --> 00:47:12,559
which we can cover later.

955
00:47:12,599 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 2: Anyways, In this section, the theme is.

956
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: That the Israelites are done paying for their crimes. They

957
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,800
got sent to the Bablon in captivity, and their time

958
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,920
of service is up, and God's about to liberate them,

959
00:47:26,119 --> 00:47:28,559
and then He's going to exalt them, and then all

960
00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:30,960
the nations are going to see that Yahweh has been

961
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,800
glorified through the exaltation of his servant, the nation of Israel,

962
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,480
which he tells you in the same section Isaiah forty

963
00:47:38,559 --> 00:47:42,280
one eight through nine. He says, but you Israel, my servant, Jacob,

964
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,119
and whom I've chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend,

965
00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:46,960
you who I took from the ends of the earth

966
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,880
and called you from its furthest corners, saying that you

967
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:50,679
are my servant.

968
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 2: I've chosen you and not cast you off.

969
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: So right at the beginning of the section chapter forty one,

970
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,880
God's like, hey, Israel, you're my servant. I didn't forget you,

971
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,360
I haven't cast you off. And then forty three to

972
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,239
ten he says, you are my witnesses in the plural,

973
00:48:04,519 --> 00:48:07,880
you are my witnesses. Does the Lord and my servant

974
00:48:08,079 --> 00:48:11,920
whom I have chosen? He says something similar in forty

975
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,719
four verse one and two, forty four, twenty one, forty

976
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:16,480
five to four.

977
00:48:17,159 --> 00:48:18,519
Speaker 2: My favorite reference is.

978
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: Forty eight twenty because it gives you the overarching theme

979
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,480
of Second Isaiah, which is go out from Babylon, flee

980
00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:29,880
from Choda chowda is the people group that lived in Babylon,

981
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,239
declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, and

982
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,239
send it forth to the ends of the earth, and

983
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,280
say that the Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob.

984
00:48:39,639 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 5: Right.

985
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,199
Speaker 1: So when I get to chapter fifty two and chapter

986
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,920
fifty three and I see this servant song, I'm saying, Ah,

987
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,920
the author of this text has already told me on

988
00:48:50,199 --> 00:48:54,679
nine different occasions that the people of Israel the remnant,

989
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,840
the righteous womnin and the visual specifically is in fact

990
00:48:58,159 --> 00:49:01,039
the servant that he's dealing with. Yes, well, I don't

991
00:49:01,039 --> 00:49:03,320
really have a good reason to think that it's somehow

992
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,440
not Israel. When I get to chapter fifty three, I'm

993
00:49:05,519 --> 00:49:07,400
going to I'm not going to read all of them

994
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,079
in context and say, actually, the servants is real on

995
00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:12,679
all these occasions. But actually, now that I'm looking at it,

996
00:49:13,039 --> 00:49:15,599
I'm going to make this servant somebody that comes, you know,

997
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:17,440
six hundred years later to me.

998
00:49:17,519 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 2: That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

999
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 6: That's understandable from how you've said it. I mean, I

1000
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,039
have no way to disprove you from my current understanding,

1001
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,199
and I just have to ask you, now, will this

1002
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,400
be did this time? Go back to this when it's

1003
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,440
not live to rewatch it, because honestly, I'm not really

1004
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,559
trying to win here or anything like that. I'm really

1005
00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:41,599
just trying to increase my understanding. So you've brought a

1006
00:49:41,679 --> 00:49:43,760
million and a half great points. So I hes off

1007
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,320
to you, and I might even call back in a

1008
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,280
month or two time, just to when I've already refreshed

1009
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,639
over all this stuff, gotten a better understanding.

1010
00:49:53,159 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, And listen again, this isn't We're not

1011
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:57,679
in a competition with each other.

1012
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 2: We're just here to have some dialogue.

1013
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,199
Speaker 1: And I to say, I remember when I was a

1014
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,199
young Christian, I used to engage in apologetics. And right

1015
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,559
before it was the summer before I started Bible College,

1016
00:50:10,039 --> 00:50:12,360
I had a friend of mine who was in a

1017
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,480
Bible study with me, and she actually just finished Bible College.

1018
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,320
She was a couple years older than me, and we

1019
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,079
were dialoguing about what we think we could present to

1020
00:50:21,159 --> 00:50:25,519
people who don't believe that might entice them to become believers.

1021
00:50:25,519 --> 00:50:27,280
And I say, well, I think the Messianic prophecies are

1022
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,519
pretty good, because it seems like there's quite a few

1023
00:50:29,519 --> 00:50:32,280
of them, and the odds would be pretty slim to

1024
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,000
fulfill so many of them. And she's like, justin, like

1025
00:50:35,599 --> 00:50:37,519
all these ones that you're talking about, like, if you

1026
00:50:37,559 --> 00:50:39,119
go back to the Hebrew Bible and read them, it

1027
00:50:39,119 --> 00:50:41,559
doesn't actually look like he fulfilled them, at least not

1028
00:50:42,159 --> 00:50:43,199
in any meaningful way.

1029
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 2: I was like, well, that's really interesting.

1030
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: I didn't expect that from someone to just graduate from

1031
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,159
Bible College. And so I went back that summer before

1032
00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:52,039
I started Bible College and I read all of them.

1033
00:50:52,079 --> 00:50:54,760
I read all of the Old Testament, prophets and all

1034
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,599
of them as they're related to Jesus and the New Testament,

1035
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,480
and I came to the same conclusion, Oh yeah, he

1036
00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:03,599
didn't actually fulfill these in any meaningful way. It seems

1037
00:51:03,599 --> 00:51:07,199
like they're all like either spiritually fulfilled or partially fulfilled,

1038
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,760
or you'd have to like win real hard and ignore

1039
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,920
the context. And so that to me, that was like

1040
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,599
at the beginning phase of my deconstruction. But I was

1041
00:51:18,639 --> 00:51:22,360
so confident in this talking point because I hadn't actually

1042
00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:26,400
fully read them yet. So my only suggestion is, hey,

1043
00:51:26,599 --> 00:51:29,159
spend some time this summer summer is coming up, my friend,

1044
00:51:29,519 --> 00:51:32,199
and read through all of the profits and how they

1045
00:51:32,199 --> 00:51:34,559
get used in the New Testament and ask yourself, like,

1046
00:51:34,599 --> 00:51:36,679
would I accept this if it was in the Quran,

1047
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,320
Would I accept this if I found it in the Vedas?

1048
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,760
Or do I only accept it because I already believe

1049
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:42,400
in the religion.

1050
00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:45,519
Speaker 3: And I would like to add on if I can

1051
00:51:46,559 --> 00:51:50,840
to what Justin was saying about this idea about reflecting

1052
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,480
on your own thought process as you're as you're thinking

1053
00:51:53,519 --> 00:51:57,119
about these I think I think we've we've seen in

1054
00:51:57,159 --> 00:52:01,239
our discussion here, at least from from my perspective that

1055
00:52:01,559 --> 00:52:04,840
these arguments from from Miracles.

1056
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,679
Speaker 6: Sor I don't know my phone is connected. Perhaps you'll

1057
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:06,920
hear me.

1058
00:52:07,199 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 3: Sorry, sorry, I was just saying that it that it

1059
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,559
seems to me from my perspective that these are these

1060
00:52:12,679 --> 00:52:14,480
arguments from Can you hear me?

1061
00:52:14,519 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 5: Now?

1062
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:15,679
Speaker 6: All right?

1063
00:52:15,679 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 3: Well maybe maybe when you go back to watch the

1064
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,639
recording you'll you'll you'll catch everything that I'm saying here.

1065
00:52:19,639 --> 00:52:26,039
But these these arguments from from Prophecy fail on two counts. One,

1066
00:52:26,559 --> 00:52:30,719
as Justin has just given in extensive, abundant detail, they

1067
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,599
fail on content, at least the ones that we've that

1068
00:52:33,639 --> 00:52:37,039
we've talked about here. And the second thing that I

1069
00:52:37,079 --> 00:52:38,920
was kind of hinting at is that the arguments also

1070
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,440
fail on form too. They're also not good logically either.

1071
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:47,039
And so the the premises are failing, and the logical

1072
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:50,840
structure is also failing, because it doesn't even if the profit,

1073
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,000
even if there was a prophecy, a very specific and

1074
00:52:54,199 --> 00:52:57,880
very unlikely prophecy, and things happened exactly the way that

1075
00:52:58,039 --> 00:53:01,719
the prophecy says, that does not grant you the tie

1076
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,559
to a god. It just means that something weird happened.

1077
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,000
And so again the question that I asked you before

1078
00:53:07,119 --> 00:53:11,719
is why would that make God more likely than just

1079
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,679
coincidence or that the story was made up after the

1080
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,039
fact by people who had read the prophecy earlier on.

1081
00:53:18,119 --> 00:53:20,599
I mean the people who wrote the New you know,

1082
00:53:20,639 --> 00:53:24,360
the New Testament, many of them knew the stories from

1083
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,119
the Old Testament, and so a lot of that came

1084
00:53:27,159 --> 00:53:30,000
into play. One last thing that I want to ask

1085
00:53:30,039 --> 00:53:33,679
you here is to You've been a great.

1086
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 5: Caller, by the way.

1087
00:53:34,519 --> 00:53:39,760
Speaker 3: I really enjoy how you've engaged with what we've been saying.

1088
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:42,079
And it's been clear that you've been thinking about what

1089
00:53:42,119 --> 00:53:45,840
we've been saying, which is surprisingly uncommon.

1090
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:46,519
Speaker 6: Right.

1091
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 3: The fact that we're that we're saying things and you're

1092
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:52,079
actually considering it and giving us considered thoughtful feedback, I

1093
00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:52,920
think that's awesome.

1094
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 5: I think we need more of that in the world today.

1095
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:56,679
Whether you're a.

1096
00:53:56,599 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 3: Theist or an atheist, I think thinking about what the

1097
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,320
other people say is something that's lost, and so I

1098
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,039
want to encourage you to reflect on the way you

1099
00:54:06,159 --> 00:54:10,079
felt while we were having this conversation. Just to give

1100
00:54:10,119 --> 00:54:13,079
you a very very short example, there was a time,

1101
00:54:13,199 --> 00:54:15,559
you know, maybe five eight years ago or something like that,

1102
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,679
when something bad happened to somebody that I admired, or

1103
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:23,079
you know, somebody that I admired did something that was questionable.

1104
00:54:23,159 --> 00:54:25,320
And so as soon as I heard about that, I

1105
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,519
was like, Okay, I'm going to watch myself. How do

1106
00:54:28,599 --> 00:54:32,360
I react to the stories about this thing happening. And

1107
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,760
when I when I started reading the stories about this

1108
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,599
bad thing happening being done by somebody that I respected,

1109
00:54:40,119 --> 00:54:43,239
I could I could feel myself wanting to turn away.

1110
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,639
Speaker 5: And I could. I could, really I could. I could

1111
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:46,800
see this happening to me.

1112
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 3: I could see the desire to to turn the page

1113
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,239
and to and to move on to dismiss it as

1114
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,280
being you know, stories or biased reporting or whatever it is.

1115
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,360
And I think that kind of self reflection can can

1116
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,920
really give you insight into your own thinking process. I mean,

1117
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,880
we all have biases, we all One thing that all

1118
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:07,960
human beings have in common is that they we all

1119
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,159
have a human brain, and human.

1120
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,639
Speaker 5: Brains work in very similar ways.

1121
00:55:13,079 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 3: And and so I think it's it's important that we

1122
00:55:16,079 --> 00:55:19,199
learn how we that we self reflect, that we that

1123
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:23,639
we know that we try to understand why we're responding

1124
00:55:23,679 --> 00:55:24,480
the way we are.

1125
00:55:24,519 --> 00:55:25,559
Speaker 5: And I'm not saying.

1126
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 3: That that you should be assuming that you had knee

1127
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:30,960
jerk reactions and we're avoiding and that kind of thing.

1128
00:55:31,199 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 5: But just think about that, that kind of thing.

1129
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 3: And I think those two, those two things going hand,

1130
00:55:35,559 --> 00:55:38,360
being thoughtful about what other people say, but also being

1131
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,519
thoughtful about what you yourself say.

1132
00:55:40,559 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 5: And and that can help help you.

1133
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 3: And whether or not it leads you to deeper into

1134
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,239
your theism or whether it leads you to atheism remains

1135
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:53,280
to be seen. But but I'm I'm impressed by by

1136
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,519
your engagement with with what we've been saying. And I

1137
00:55:55,519 --> 00:55:57,599
want to encourage you. I'm a teacher, this is what

1138
00:55:57,639 --> 00:55:59,960
I do. I want to encourage you to think about

1139
00:56:00,079 --> 00:56:01,480
your process as you move forward.

1140
00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 5: Does that make any sense to you, Isaac?

1141
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,119
Speaker 6: Oh, for sure? And I thank you guys for your patients.

1142
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,280
It's become very evident to me that I am in

1143
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,800
a lower class of debate than I sure thought I was,

1144
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,599
you know, because there's the people that they aren't exactly

1145
00:56:15,639 --> 00:56:19,159
familiar with any of this stuff, who are like your

1146
00:56:19,159 --> 00:56:22,400
average person on the street who's like in that Christian culture,

1147
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,119
you know, they don't exactly go to church, they don't

1148
00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:26,840
really read it that much. But then you have somebody

1149
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,039
like me who has you know, a base level understanding

1150
00:56:29,119 --> 00:56:31,320
of some of these texts, has read them a couple

1151
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,079
of times that can give them an answer. Then there's

1152
00:56:34,119 --> 00:56:36,880
that next level like you guys, who can give a

1153
00:56:37,119 --> 00:56:40,639
counter to that. So for me, I'm just going to

1154
00:56:40,679 --> 00:56:43,639
go rewatch what we've looked at right now, and I'm

1155
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,679
gonna brush up on all this stuff. I'm gonna look

1156
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,760
at what the apologists before us have said to all

1157
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,039
this stuff, because I've never heard any of this. Usually,

1158
00:56:54,119 --> 00:56:56,719
the quality of debate out there on this kind of

1159
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:00,559
thing is so sadly low. It's some Muhammed hit job

1160
00:57:00,639 --> 00:57:07,199
level's head out there, especially as well, where it's just mudglinging.

1161
00:57:07,519 --> 00:57:11,199
Is mud flinging. Yeah, I mean Matt Delahante, he is

1162
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,239
a great guy. Who was listening to him last night.

1163
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,639
I mean he had mentioned, and I don't know how

1164
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,719
I am for prime, but uh, he had mentioned the

1165
00:57:19,719 --> 00:57:21,440
story of and I'm not going to try to make

1166
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,039
a debate out of it, but uh, the story of

1167
00:57:24,079 --> 00:57:27,880
Elisha sending the two she bears after the children or

1168
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,599
the youths. And he had said that I had started

1169
00:57:30,679 --> 00:57:34,559
his d conversion. Yeah, yeah, he said that had started

1170
00:57:34,559 --> 00:57:37,480
his deconversion train and he was going to seminary and

1171
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:41,000
all that. But my understanding just by reading the Hebrew,

1172
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,159
because there's people like him that are so well read,

1173
00:57:43,199 --> 00:57:45,639
and I may just be overlooking something that he's seen

1174
00:57:45,639 --> 00:57:49,280
that I have not, Like there's translation differences, like that

1175
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,719
word youth in that context could mean young men. I mean,

1176
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,199
I believe that same word was used for fur to

1177
00:57:55,320 --> 00:58:00,440
Joseph when he was seventeen. So yeah, I think.

1178
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,079
Speaker 1: The I'm pretty familiar with this with the Hebrew in

1179
00:58:04,079 --> 00:58:09,039
this text as well. So you've got the youth using

1180
00:58:09,079 --> 00:58:12,840
the word not au rem sonar is Hebrew for like

1181
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,800
a youth, like a young person, and it's pretty broad.

1182
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,840
And then you've got a modifier katan, which means small,

1183
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,519
so it'd be a rem katanim, which would be the

1184
00:58:23,559 --> 00:58:29,519
plural of little youth children basically, And so that's why

1185
00:58:29,639 --> 00:58:33,719
you know, scholars overwhelmingly will translate it as children rather

1186
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:37,039
than youth, because they're not just youth. They're a little

1187
00:58:37,159 --> 00:58:42,239
use are probably between like eight and twelve, so it's

1188
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,199
it's a little bit difficult to pinpoint the age, but

1189
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,079
we don't have a good reason to believe that they

1190
00:58:47,119 --> 00:58:51,440
were like a band of like roaming nineteen year old

1191
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,920
gangbangers looking to mess up Elisha. And the other thing

1192
00:58:56,039 --> 00:58:58,519
is what were they doing, Whether they're making fun of

1193
00:58:58,559 --> 00:59:01,159
him because he was bald some thing that kids do.

1194
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,159
Teenagers don't engage in that kind of stuff. They're usually like,

1195
00:59:04,199 --> 00:59:06,679
oh yeah, I mean another ten or fifteen years, I'll

1196
00:59:06,679 --> 00:59:10,519
be bald too, right, So to me, it just looks.

1197
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:10,519
Speaker 2: Like the.

1198
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:17,679
Speaker 6: Age well pretty childish people that are like nineteen before.

1199
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:19,199
But that's I mean, I get what you.

1200
00:59:19,239 --> 00:59:23,039
Speaker 1: Said, and like, So, while I agree that the word

1201
00:59:23,079 --> 00:59:26,800
in r can get used kind of broadly, an archaton

1202
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:31,199
doesn't really. And there's like one passage that people turn

1203
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:35,320
to in the historical books where Solomon refers to himself

1204
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,760
as an archatan, but he also is using it in

1205
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:43,639
a very whimsical idiomatic fashion where when he first gets

1206
00:59:43,679 --> 00:59:46,599
told he's gonna take over for his dad, he's very

1207
00:59:46,719 --> 00:59:51,199
emotional and he's like, you know, certainly not I I

1208
00:59:51,559 --> 00:59:53,679
don't even know how to come or go. I'm but

1209
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,760
a small child, right, Well, obviously he knows how to

1210
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:58,280
come out of the house and come into the house.

1211
00:59:58,519 --> 01:00:01,840
That this is a hyper bog statement where he's abasing

1212
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,480
himself before yeahweh basically saying, hey, I'm not worthy. I've

1213
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:07,840
got the intelligence of a child. I don't even know

1214
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,320
how to come into the house and go out of

1215
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,840
the house, right, And that's the only other reference to

1216
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:17,840
this formulation of words. And it's clear in the way

1217
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,880
that Solomon is using the words, he's comparing himself to

1218
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:22,519
a child.

1219
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:24,239
Speaker 2: So I think it's important.

1220
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,079
Speaker 1: While the apologetics are good, I used to when I

1221
01:00:27,119 --> 01:00:30,159
was a young Christian, I read the same apologetics and

1222
01:00:30,199 --> 01:00:33,239
then I read the counter to the apologetics. Oh actually, yeah,

1223
01:00:33,239 --> 01:00:35,199
the counter say the apologetics makes more sense.

1224
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 6: Well, for me, there's another level above. You know, there's

1225
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,119
a counter to the counter, and that's just I'm not

1226
01:00:41,199 --> 01:00:44,079
aware of the counter to the counter that you guys

1227
01:00:44,119 --> 01:00:45,880
have brought up. And it may just be so that

1228
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:50,960
they are not as good as the atheist counter to

1229
01:00:51,679 --> 01:00:56,159
these scripts. But for me, I still do believe in Christ,

1230
01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:00,719
though there is a major lack of understated on these

1231
01:01:01,159 --> 01:01:04,400
verses that I have, But that's very apparent. I will

1232
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,719
say this because I got to go, I got take

1233
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:10,280
some medication I have. I have hemophilia, so I believe

1234
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,119
and whatnot. But I wanted to ask you, guys, would

1235
01:01:13,159 --> 01:01:14,639
you be willing to have me on in a month

1236
01:01:14,719 --> 01:01:16,119
or two if I were to call back.

1237
01:01:16,039 --> 01:01:17,119
Speaker 2: Here, Oh, any time.

1238
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, You're always welcome to call back, especially such a

1239
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:21,800
good faith caller. These are the type of calls we

1240
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,320
want to have with people we don't you know, we're

1241
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,719
not specifically looking for people who are going to crash

1242
01:01:26,719 --> 01:01:27,639
out and lose their mind.

1243
01:01:27,679 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 2: We love these good faith calls definitely.

1244
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 6: All right, Well you were a mathemattician, right or the

1245
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:39,079
all right, sorry, Scott Dickey, you're the mathematician in justin

1246
01:01:39,119 --> 01:01:41,239
you were the guy that went to seminary, right, just

1247
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:42,280
give myself acquainted?

1248
01:01:42,719 --> 01:01:46,119
Speaker 2: True? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I went to I did.

1249
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 1: My background's actually electrical engineering. I went to school for

1250
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:52,840
robotics and engineering, and then I went to the Bible College

1251
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,519
and seminary. And it was lucky for me because I

1252
01:01:55,519 --> 01:01:58,360
could work as an engineer. Once I kind of, you know,

1253
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:00,679
decided that Christianity was going to pen out.

1254
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 6: All right, Well, God bless you guys. I hope you

1255
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:07,360
have a wonderfull rest of your show, and hope to

1256
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:08,119
talk again soon.

1257
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 2: Curious friend.

1258
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 5: Good to hear for your music. That was a great call.

1259
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:12,719
I really enjoyed that.

1260
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 2: What a nice Christian and.

1261
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,239
Speaker 1: Like And again, you know we say it all the time, Listen,

1262
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:21,039
we were not conn Scott. We don't expect that we're

1263
01:02:21,039 --> 01:02:22,960
going to talk to somebody and they're going to deconvert

1264
01:02:23,039 --> 01:02:26,239
on the phone. That's how that works, right, But we

1265
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:29,480
do hope that they're going to be listening to the argument,

1266
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,079
engaging with the argument, and trying to think through the

1267
01:02:33,239 --> 01:02:36,639
argument the same way that they did when they became

1268
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:38,800
convinced of the religion.

1269
01:02:38,639 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 5: Right, you know what I mean?

1270
01:02:39,639 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 1: Right?

1271
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:42,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, or at least as much. At least as much.

1272
01:02:42,239 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 3: But I'm curious as to how many of the deconstruction

1273
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:47,199
stories that you see kind of start out this way

1274
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,719
as somebody really engaging with the content and with the

1275
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:55,000
claims with an honest, with an honest approach, I think that,

1276
01:02:55,039 --> 01:02:57,400
and I don't mean to imply dishonesty to anybody else,

1277
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,320
but I think that if you look at things with

1278
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,760
an with honesty and with integrity and with humility, it

1279
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,639
makes for much better conversations, regardless of how those conversations

1280
01:03:06,679 --> 01:03:07,079
turn out.

1281
01:03:08,039 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 1: But Scott, have you considered that God actually just created

1282
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,119
you to be a vessel of wrath? And salvation is

1283
01:03:13,159 --> 01:03:14,320
beyond your comprehension.

1284
01:03:14,639 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 5: That's pretty I can't argue with that. I have no

1285
01:03:17,519 --> 01:03:18,400
argument against that.

1286
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 1: Actually, friends, we got a super chat in while we

1287
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:23,960
were talking.

1288
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,199
Speaker 2: It looks like there might be more that came in.

1289
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,159
Speaker 1: I didn't see them, but let me grab our super

1290
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:31,760
chat from treaduce.

1291
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,719
Speaker 2: I think saduce triple deuce.

1292
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 5: That looks pretty coolse Yeah, I was curious.

1293
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,079
Speaker 3: That is how you're going to pronounce that, like, wait

1294
01:03:39,119 --> 01:03:44,880
a minute, backwards e acting as a three right tree deuce.

1295
01:03:45,039 --> 01:03:48,199
Speaker 1: Maybe anyways, Hey, it says happy Mother's Day to all

1296
01:03:48,239 --> 01:03:51,559
moms out there atheists or theists, and I agree, Happy

1297
01:03:51,679 --> 01:03:54,559
Mother's Day, y'all. Make sure to get your mom some

1298
01:03:54,679 --> 01:03:57,039
flowers and call her on the phone and thank her

1299
01:03:57,239 --> 01:03:59,920
for pushing your giant head out of the birth can,

1300
01:04:00,239 --> 01:04:05,880
because that is a monumental feat that, if evolution is true,

1301
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:06,440
makes sense.

1302
01:04:06,599 --> 01:04:07,239
Speaker 2: If God is.

1303
01:04:07,199 --> 01:04:12,039
Speaker 1: True is old and vindictive, crazy stuff. We've got some

1304
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:15,320
people waiting in the queue. We do, uh, we do

1305
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,119
have lines open on TikTok. I don't see anyone in

1306
01:04:18,159 --> 01:04:20,639
the TikTok queue. You can call in on TikTok using

1307
01:04:20,639 --> 01:04:24,639
the guest request. You can call in at five one nine, two,

1308
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,519
four to two or using the link tiny dot c

1309
01:04:27,719 --> 01:04:30,840
c Forde slash call XP and we'll get you in.

1310
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,320
Our key is not full on the lines either. If

1311
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,039
you call in, I don't know uh. During the next

1312
01:04:37,039 --> 01:04:38,760
call or too, we'll probably be able to get to you.

1313
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:40,519
If you wait another hour to call in, we might

1314
01:04:40,559 --> 01:04:42,360
not have time to get to your friends because it's

1315
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:44,840
already six thirty. But I do want to run through

1316
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:47,760
a couple quick announcements before we take our next guest,

1317
01:04:48,239 --> 01:04:53,639
So let's see what our announcements have changed. Look at that, hey, listen,

1318
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,679
I've got a very short list of announcements. Announcement number

1319
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:03,760
one it says we're going to bring up our friend

1320
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:08,719
and co host, Jamie the Blind Limey, because we've got

1321
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,800
an announcement for a May event and it's going to

1322
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:12,679
be rolling right now.

1323
01:05:13,239 --> 01:05:15,719
Speaker 8: Jamie the Blind lime here, and I've got some interesting

1324
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:19,039
news for you. On Saturday, May sixteenth, at six pm,

1325
01:05:19,239 --> 01:05:22,000
we'll be hosting our twenty four hour We Are Here

1326
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:26,480
live stream and fundraiser to highlight secular voices around the world.

1327
01:05:26,599 --> 01:05:30,559
We've invited dozens of your favorite content creators like genetically

1328
01:05:30,559 --> 01:05:34,599
Modified Skeptic, the Antibot, Justin d Z and more to

1329
01:05:34,679 --> 01:05:37,079
let the world know that we are here and we're

1330
01:05:37,079 --> 01:05:39,480
not going anywhere. If you're here in Austin, come join

1331
01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:42,679
us at Free Thought Library at fifteen oh seven West

1332
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,840
cain Igline. Well, we'll be kicking things off in style,

1333
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,239
and if you're online, do join us on the Atheist

1334
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:51,800
Experience channel to check out the stream and join in

1335
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,159
the fund. So join us from wherever you are in

1336
01:05:54,199 --> 01:05:57,280
the world, and together we can dedicate ourselves to secular

1337
01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:59,519
humanist values wherever we are.

1338
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's coming up next weekend, right, that's next weekend,

1339
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,599
So it's going to be a busy weekend. Justin, are

1340
01:06:08,599 --> 01:06:11,159
you doing anything for the Are you gonna be participating

1341
01:06:11,199 --> 01:06:12,039
in our You.

1342
01:06:12,079 --> 01:06:15,079
Speaker 2: Know, I apologize. I actually haven't gotten back with I know,

1343
01:06:15,079 --> 01:06:15,679
I've got an.

1344
01:06:15,559 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 1: Abundance of emails because next weekend there are two different

1345
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:22,199
twenty four hour fundraisers happening on different networks that both

1346
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:22,800
want me on.

1347
01:06:23,159 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 5: And that's what happens the ball man.

1348
01:06:27,519 --> 01:06:30,039
Speaker 1: So I just actually don't know what's happening. I think

1349
01:06:30,079 --> 01:06:32,159
I might be hosting a show set I don't know.

1350
01:06:32,199 --> 01:06:34,559
I gotta work it out between now and then, but

1351
01:06:35,519 --> 01:06:38,599
I'll try to make it to all of the places where.

1352
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 2: I can be.

1353
01:06:40,199 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: If you're watching, Marie, I'm sorry I didn't get back

1354
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:43,679
to you.

1355
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 2: I promise i'll get back to you.

1356
01:06:45,559 --> 01:06:47,559
Speaker 1: But we do want to send a big thank you

1357
01:06:47,599 --> 01:06:49,039
out to the cast and crew that put the show

1358
01:06:49,039 --> 01:06:51,360
together every week. Hey, we've got a bunch of people

1359
01:06:51,559 --> 01:06:55,400
that help volunteer to make this show possible.

1360
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:56,280
Speaker 2: We've got video.

1361
01:06:56,159 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 1: Operators, audio operators, note takers, call screeners, and chat moderators.

1362
01:07:00,159 --> 01:07:03,079
Speaker 2: So that means Scott and I don't have to screen the.

1363
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 1: Phone calls, we don't have to do the downboard, we

1364
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:09,239
don't have to cast video anywhere. We just get to

1365
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:11,760
sit up here and banter and talk to the guest.

1366
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:13,639
So send a big thank you to the cast and crew.

1367
01:07:13,679 --> 01:07:16,760
And hey, listen, if you've got skills and you've got

1368
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:18,920
free time, and you want to be a volunteer and

1369
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:23,280
help out the ACA on any of the various ACA shows, Hey,

1370
01:07:23,679 --> 01:07:28,199
you can email us at volunteer at atheistdashcommunity dot org.

1371
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:31,039
Speaker 2: Let them know that you've got.

1372
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:34,119
Speaker 1: A particular skill and see if there's a place that

1373
01:07:34,159 --> 01:07:37,920
you can be plugged in. And even if you're like Hey, listen,

1374
01:07:38,079 --> 01:07:41,280
I would really be interested in hosting one of the

1375
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:42,360
ACA shows.

1376
01:07:42,079 --> 01:07:43,199
Speaker 2: Sometime we're being a guest.

1377
01:07:43,239 --> 01:07:46,679
Speaker 1: Hey email at the same email volunteer at atheist dash

1378
01:07:46,719 --> 01:07:50,280
community dot org, and if we can get you plugged in,

1379
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:52,679
we'll get you plugged in friends to see.

1380
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 2: Now, I think it's all of our announcements to scrab

1381
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:58,920
if I'm looking at this correctly. Our first in line

1382
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:01,239
I thought was Joel.

1383
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 1: He says, Joel's been here for fifty seven minutes, So

1384
01:08:04,519 --> 01:08:09,119
we'll grab Joel next, and then we'll grab Toby after Joel.

1385
01:08:09,519 --> 01:08:10,239
Speaker 5: That sounds good.

1386
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 1: Joel's calling all the way from Arkansas and is asking

1387
01:08:15,119 --> 01:08:17,520
can a perfect God create imperfection?

1388
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 2: Well, welcome to XP Joel. You're aw with Scott and Justin.

1389
01:08:21,039 --> 01:08:21,319
Speaker 1: How are you?

1390
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:24,079
Speaker 4: Yes, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

1391
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 1: So it sounds like your question is kind of a

1392
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:30,439
familiar one to us, but I don't want to put

1393
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:32,920
words in your mouth. Can you kind of fill out

1394
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,920
your question and where you think it might the you know,

1395
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:37,039
the conclusion might lead.

1396
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence in my beliefs,

1397
01:08:41,159 --> 01:08:45,319
and what would be helpful is to design, first of all,

1398
01:08:45,359 --> 01:08:49,399
if the universe is a perfect universe. I don't think

1399
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:54,039
the Earth is a perfect Earth, but I just am wondering,

1400
01:08:54,119 --> 01:08:57,319
really if there is a you know, God is supposed

1401
01:08:57,319 --> 01:09:00,039
to be a perfect god omnistion on the present and

1402
01:09:00,319 --> 01:09:03,560
all that, and can a being like that? Is it

1403
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:07,560
possible for a perfect being to create imperfection?

1404
01:09:09,039 --> 01:09:12,039
Speaker 1: I think Scott I might have asolutely different answers. I'd

1405
01:09:12,079 --> 01:09:13,479
like to hear a Scot's answer first.

1406
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 5: I mean, I would be curious.

1407
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:18,119
Speaker 3: You know, to me, the question seems ill formed, and

1408
01:09:18,359 --> 01:09:22,319
I because you know, the word perfect is really not

1409
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:25,479
very specific. I mean perfect in what way?

1410
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:26,159
Speaker 4: You know.

1411
01:09:26,279 --> 01:09:29,720
Speaker 3: I've heard people say God is perfect in every way. Well,

1412
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:32,720
you can't be perfectly imperfect, and you can't be both

1413
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,640
perfectly black and perfectly white at the same time, and

1414
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:37,760
you can't be perfectly up and perfectly down.

1415
01:09:38,199 --> 01:09:41,359
Speaker 5: You know, there's it just seems you know, perfect.

1416
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:42,279
Speaker 7: What is what?

1417
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 3: I what I would say when you said Earth is

1418
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,439
not a perfect earth, I would disagree with that. I

1419
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:50,039
think the Earth is a perfect earth. You know, it's

1420
01:09:50,079 --> 01:09:53,640
exactly the way Earth is. I mean, that's a tautological statement.

1421
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:56,079
It has to be true. I'm the perfect me, You're

1422
01:09:56,119 --> 01:09:59,479
the perfect you, Justin is the perfect Justin And so really,

1423
01:10:00,119 --> 01:10:03,520
to me, the question doesn't doesn't even get off the ground.

1424
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 5: You know, perfect, what is it? What do you mean

1425
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:06,399
by perfect?

1426
01:10:07,359 --> 01:10:12,600
Speaker 4: Well, you are absolutely right. I didn't really think about

1427
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:18,039
that perspective of perfect. I guess it is an ill

1428
01:10:18,159 --> 01:10:21,399
formed question, which probably would be helpful for you to

1429
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:25,279
help fill out the question a little bit, because my

1430
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:29,399
view of perfect has always been your first definition of

1431
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:35,359
perfect just you know, God is God is perfect in always.

1432
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:37,960
That's That's what my thought has always been.

1433
01:10:39,199 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 3: Is that your thought, now, God is perfect in all ways?

1434
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:43,359
So God's the perfect devil?

1435
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 4: Well, well, see, if you talk about God creating the devil,

1436
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:52,880
I would think that that would be an imperfection.

1437
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,600
Speaker 3: No, I would say, if God is perfect in every way,

1438
01:10:57,159 --> 01:11:04,439
then God is the perfect devil. Right now, to some extent,

1439
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:06,880
I'm Penny yank in your chain here, because when people

1440
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:10,640
say perfect, typically they're implying a handful you know, maybe

1441
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:15,920
perfectly good, perfectly knowing, perfectly, you know, available, perfectly healthy,

1442
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:18,600
you know, things like that, and so generally people are

1443
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:23,520
implying a more specific meaning of perfection there. So I

1444
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:26,640
am kind of giving you the business here, But I

1445
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:29,319
still think that's an important thing to at least consider.

1446
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:32,600
But I'm curious justin what are your thoughts on that

1447
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:34,079
you said you wanted to take it a different I

1448
01:11:34,159 --> 01:11:37,119
see you're getting some top secret information from your cat there,

1449
01:11:37,159 --> 01:11:38,359
so maybe what did the cat have to.

1450
01:11:38,279 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 2: Say about it?

1451
01:11:39,399 --> 01:11:39,720
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1452
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:43,399
Speaker 1: So heck what you can now see behind me on

1453
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:48,079
the shelf getting ready to eat my plants? So I

1454
01:11:48,119 --> 01:11:52,079
think there might be a way out of this. First

1455
01:11:52,119 --> 01:11:54,039
of all, I agree with what Scott was going to say.

1456
01:11:54,119 --> 01:11:56,039
What Scott was saying, I think when we use the

1457
01:11:56,039 --> 01:11:59,600
word perfect, I think it's very intriguing to figure out

1458
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,760
what we mean by perfect. We mean that like nothing's lacking,

1459
01:12:03,359 --> 01:12:05,920
or do we mean like it has perfect goodness?

1460
01:12:06,039 --> 01:12:06,119
Speaker 6: Like?

1461
01:12:06,159 --> 01:12:07,359
Speaker 2: There's some questions here.

1462
01:12:07,359 --> 01:12:10,640
Speaker 1: But if I was a Christian, this is how I

1463
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:13,279
would resolve the problem. So here's some food for thought.

1464
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:18,399
So I would say this tremis number one. If God exists, she.

1465
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:20,439
Speaker 2: Is perfect, premis number two.

1466
01:12:21,039 --> 01:12:25,520
Speaker 1: If God is perfect, then her desires are perfect premis

1467
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:29,760
number three. If her desires are perfect, then desiring to

1468
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:34,239
create an imperfect universe is a perfect desire.

1469
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,279
Speaker 2: Uh. And then the conclusion would obviously be.

1470
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:44,279
Speaker 1: That an imperfect universe is uh is a you know,

1471
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:48,880
uh not incompatible with God's perfect will.

1472
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:52,680
Speaker 4: Well, I think if you it sounds like you're saying,

1473
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:56,520
then everything is perfect. I mean, if God exists and

1474
01:12:56,680 --> 01:13:00,239
it's a perfect God, then everything is perfect, including good

1475
01:13:00,359 --> 01:13:06,279
and evil. It's just everything is perfect.

1476
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,079
Speaker 2: As an atheist, I would agree with you.

1477
01:13:09,159 --> 01:13:14,640
Speaker 1: I'd say, yes, the creation is perfect in that this is.

1478
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:16,319
Speaker 2: How God wanted it to be.

1479
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:20,560
Speaker 1: Right now, I think the reason why this is a

1480
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:24,640
good atheist position even though like, so this is the

1481
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:27,279
fun part, right, I walked you through like a basic

1482
01:13:27,319 --> 01:13:30,119
syllogism I put together, so as an atheist we can

1483
01:13:30,159 --> 01:13:31,960
actually just agree to all those points.

1484
01:13:32,199 --> 01:13:34,079
Speaker 2: Like if we're talking to a Christian and say.

1485
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:37,640
Speaker 1: Yes, we agree that creating an imperfect universe.

1486
01:13:37,319 --> 01:13:39,199
Speaker 2: Is perfect because God's will is perfect.

1487
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 1: And then I think the problem that you're going to

1488
01:13:42,039 --> 01:13:46,279
run into then is they're going to say, oh, actually

1489
01:13:46,359 --> 01:13:48,920
it's imperfect, not because he treated it that way, but

1490
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:49,800
because of the fall.

1491
01:13:50,239 --> 01:13:51,399
Speaker 2: Oh so interesting.

1492
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:55,880
Speaker 1: So God actually didn't intend to create an imperfect universe.

1493
01:13:56,279 --> 01:13:58,840
Speaker 2: He intended to create a perfect one.

1494
01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:02,079
Speaker 1: And now we get to do this really fun dialogue

1495
01:14:02,079 --> 01:14:04,960
about like the problem of evil. Okay, if God doesn't

1496
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,079
want the imperfect universe. He actually wants a perfect universe,

1497
01:14:08,359 --> 01:14:11,520
but we have the imperfect one. We've got some serious

1498
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:16,520
questions answer why is it that God allows this imperfection

1499
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:19,680
when that's not actually his desires? See, this is a

1500
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:23,399
fun question that I think does a lot of heavy

1501
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:25,600
lifting if you're talking to a generic theist, But the

1502
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:28,199
minute you talk to a Christian, it kind of if

1503
01:14:28,239 --> 01:14:31,600
you agree to the syllogism just defeats the Christian message.

1504
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:33,600
If you're talking to a generic theist, I don't know

1505
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:36,479
if you would grant them the entire syllogism.

1506
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:37,119
Speaker 2: You might want to fight back on it.

1507
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:41,359
Speaker 4: No, I always my view of perfection was going back

1508
01:14:41,399 --> 01:14:44,600
a little ways. My view of perfection as far as

1509
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:50,760
God's perfection would have been He's perfectly good. And I

1510
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:54,640
know in the Bible he's done some really nasty things

1511
01:14:55,199 --> 01:14:58,840
that my view would have been that he's perfectly good.

1512
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:05,520
And I stumble on this question because I always my

1513
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:10,199
thought is how can a perfect being create imperfection? And

1514
01:15:10,199 --> 01:15:13,039
I understand what you're saying, Well, if he's perfect, then

1515
01:15:13,079 --> 01:15:16,039
no matter what he does, it's going to be perfect. Honestly,

1516
01:15:16,079 --> 01:15:19,079
I don't like that. I don't like that statement.

1517
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:21,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tough one.

1518
01:15:22,319 --> 01:15:24,680
Speaker 1: It is like you can get to a point of

1519
01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:30,800
logical foundness and validity with the syllogism. I would say

1520
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:33,399
this though, if I was going to push back against that,

1521
01:15:34,079 --> 01:15:37,840
I would say something akin to, well, if God exists,

1522
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:42,279
and then God himself or herself rather would be perfect.

1523
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:47,640
But what that would imply is that all of God's

1524
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:53,279
creation would have to be perfect. Because now we want

1525
01:15:53,319 --> 01:15:56,720
to get into the argument of goodness. Right, so if

1526
01:15:56,760 --> 01:15:59,720
God is perfect, we would expect that he always does

1527
01:16:00,119 --> 01:16:03,000
the best course of actions. Right, to be perfect, you

1528
01:16:03,119 --> 01:16:05,800
need to be perfect in goodness, because they would describe

1529
01:16:06,079 --> 01:16:08,680
like evil as like a lack of goodness or a

1530
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:11,439
lack of God. So you'd say, listen, if God is

1531
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:13,720
perfect and God is good, that means all of his

1532
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:18,640
actions must be good necessarily. So then now you get

1533
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:20,119
to ask the question, Okay, well, if all of his

1534
01:16:20,159 --> 01:16:25,199
actions are good, then the place that he created to

1535
01:16:25,239 --> 01:16:28,920
hear with all the unnecessary suffering. Well, this seems problematic

1536
01:16:29,239 --> 01:16:34,760
unless we think that unnecessary suffering is good. If we

1537
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:38,199
agree that unnecessary suffering is not good, well, now we've

1538
01:16:38,199 --> 01:16:41,119
got a contradiction. Why is an all knowing, all powerful,

1539
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:45,199
all loving God creating unnecessary suffering.

1540
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:47,520
Speaker 2: If unnecessary suffering is not good.

1541
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 1: But if unnecessary suffering is good, well, now we just

1542
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:54,319
get the absurdity. Well, if it's good, then why are

1543
01:16:54,359 --> 01:16:57,520
we helping children get sick when they're born to bone cancer?

1544
01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 2: Why are we saving sick people dying?

1545
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:04,039
Speaker 1: Why are we trying to prevent people from getting diseases?

1546
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:07,399
If unnecessarily suffering is good, we should stop helping each other.

1547
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:11,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, let me ask you this question. Is the

1548
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,840
word perfect a poor word to use in this discussion?

1549
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:17,880
I mean, is there a better word that we can

1550
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:20,159
use here instead of the word perfect?

1551
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:24,720
Speaker 1: I suspect got probably has an opinion on this. I

1552
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:26,960
personally don't have a problem with the word perfect, though, what.

1553
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:27,520
Speaker 2: Do you think's got?

1554
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 3: Well, like I said before, I mean, it can be vague,

1555
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:33,920
but again, typically people kind of assume thing. You know,

1556
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:38,439
that it's kind of implied, and making implications like that

1557
01:17:39,399 --> 01:17:39,800
can be.

1558
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,119
Speaker 5: Convenient, but it can also be confusing.

1559
01:17:44,239 --> 01:17:47,359
Speaker 3: And so you know, if your view of perfection, We've

1560
01:17:47,399 --> 01:17:51,800
talked about our various opinions of what perfection means, and

1561
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:54,079
if we all have something, if we all think of

1562
01:17:54,159 --> 01:17:58,680
perfection differently than having a conversation on perfection can't be

1563
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:01,880
can't be productive because we won't be on the same page.

1564
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:05,880
But I can give you a short, quick answer to

1565
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:08,640
the question can a perfect God create imperfection? And my

1566
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:12,720
knee jerk reaction would be yes, and they can do

1567
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:13,560
it perfectly.

1568
01:18:14,279 --> 01:18:16,279
Speaker 5: But beyond that, you know, we can't really say much.

1569
01:18:17,079 --> 01:18:20,279
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, that's I guess is kind of helpful. I can.

1570
01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:25,119
I can spend a little time thinking about it. But shoot, okay,

1571
01:18:25,359 --> 01:18:30,039
I he kind of caught me off guard with with

1572
01:18:30,039 --> 01:18:34,039
with your response a little bit, but that's okay, that's okay.

1573
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:37,279
I appreciate your time, and I do appreciate your input.

1574
01:18:37,399 --> 01:18:39,680
I appreciate your show too. I really like your show,

1575
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:40,479
watching your show.

1576
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:43,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure things, Thanks for calling, Joe, I would ask,

1577
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:46,720
there's another question along the same lines that you might

1578
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:50,800
be interested in, so some food for thought. If God

1579
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:54,239
is perfect, usually that entails that he's complete in he's

1580
01:18:54,279 --> 01:18:58,119
not lacking anything. Right, If God is perfect, why would

1581
01:18:58,159 --> 01:19:01,039
he want to create anything at all? What is the

1582
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:05,880
what's the motivating desire for wanting to create? And if

1583
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:08,279
God's I material, how does he even have or how

1584
01:19:08,319 --> 01:19:12,359
does she even have desires? So the idea of creation

1585
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:16,239
with a perfect god has so many problems. Doesn't make

1586
01:19:16,279 --> 01:19:19,439
sense that a perfect God would even want to create

1587
01:19:19,479 --> 01:19:21,760
anything at all, much less an imperfect creation.

1588
01:19:22,359 --> 01:19:24,279
Speaker 3: You would think that adding a creation to the mix

1589
01:19:24,319 --> 01:19:26,359
would necessarily make it less perfect.

1590
01:19:27,039 --> 01:19:29,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that is a very That is a

1591
01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:35,520
very good point, very good observation. Okay, yeah, that's helpful too.

1592
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:39,079
All right, I'll have to think about this also. I

1593
01:19:39,159 --> 01:19:41,720
just wanted to interject here that I'm from Arizona. You

1594
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:44,279
got down there Arkansas, but I'm from Arizona.

1595
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:48,520
Speaker 2: Oh, it's interesting. Yeah, they put ar instead of AK.

1596
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:52,239
Speaker 1: I sometimes I mess up the state abbreviations too, it happens.

1597
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:55,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's no big deal, no big deal. All right again,

1598
01:19:56,119 --> 01:19:58,640
thank you guys for having me. I appreciate it very much.

1599
01:19:58,720 --> 01:20:01,399
Speaker 2: Thanks for your input, and thanks for calling anjel. Have

1600
01:20:01,439 --> 01:20:04,680
a good one. YouTube friends.

1601
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:07,239
Speaker 1: The only abbreviations you need to know, and shout it

1602
01:20:07,279 --> 01:20:12,560
out if you know. Oh h anyone, anyone have any iOS?

1603
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:15,199
Speaker 2: In the comments? Sure?

1604
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:17,039
Speaker 5: Did you wait? Did you say? Iowins?

1605
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:21,279
Speaker 2: Everyone?

1606
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:24,000
Speaker 3: Ohio wins? Okay, I go yeah, all right, I thought

1607
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:26,079
you said never mind.

1608
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:28,439
Speaker 2: It's an Ohio thing. We're really weird people.

1609
01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 1: Listen, we ate some of the poisonous Buckeyes a long

1610
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:33,680
time ago, and we haven't been straight since.

1611
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:36,279
Speaker 2: It's been really our brains are I get it.

1612
01:20:36,439 --> 01:20:39,039
Speaker 3: You know some people from Ohio, so you know, I

1613
01:20:39,119 --> 01:20:40,239
hear you.

1614
01:20:40,399 --> 01:20:43,520
Speaker 2: It all checks out. Also, we play so much football here.

1615
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:46,680
Speaker 1: We're all suffering from from TBI and CT.

1616
01:20:47,039 --> 01:20:49,279
Speaker 2: So it's just it's a whole it's a whole situation.

1617
01:20:49,359 --> 01:20:51,399
Speaker 3: Went from Minnesota and so we take hockey pucks to

1618
01:20:51,439 --> 01:20:53,199
the mouth all the time, so you know, you know,

1619
01:20:53,319 --> 01:20:56,399
it's it's you're kind of screwed wherever you go, right.

1620
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:59,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, watch out for flying pucks for sure. Listen,

1621
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:00,640
we've got Toby.

1622
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:05,199
Speaker 1: Listen, Toby's calling in literally from Italy way way.

1623
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:08,159
Speaker 2: Across the pond. So I'm excited to get Toby in here.

1624
01:21:08,159 --> 01:21:11,399
Speaker 1: Toby's been waiting now probably over an hour, and Toby

1625
01:21:12,199 --> 01:21:16,159
appears to be an atheist and is hoping justin Hey,

1626
01:21:16,159 --> 01:21:20,479
that's me can help clarify the idea that God grounds logic. Actually,

1627
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:23,199
the funny that you mentioned it, I think this is probably.

1628
01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:25,880
Speaker 2: More in Scott's so we'll both be able to address this.

1629
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:28,239
Speaker 1: Since I can't seem to get an answer from Christians,

1630
01:21:28,279 --> 01:21:31,199
and he probably understands the argument better than them. Well,

1631
01:21:31,239 --> 01:21:35,239
first of all, the whole grounding argument to me is

1632
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:38,960
a funny one. But I'd like to have Scott address

1633
01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:42,560
at first. Anyways, Toby will come on XP with Scott

1634
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:43,000
and Justin.

1635
01:21:43,039 --> 01:21:44,960
Speaker 2: How are you? Oh, I'm all right?

1636
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:46,239
Speaker 7: Thank you appearing all right?

1637
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 2: Oh wow? Yeah?

1638
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:51,239
Speaker 3: So Toby, are we kind of getting your question right

1639
01:21:51,279 --> 01:21:52,920
here or is there there anything that you'd like to

1640
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:55,199
add before we kind of start respond?

1641
01:21:55,319 --> 01:21:58,199
Speaker 7: Well, I've been I've been watching Justine's videos for a

1642
01:21:58,239 --> 01:22:01,399
while now, and I see some filbrows from time to

1643
01:22:01,399 --> 01:22:03,680
time saying that, oh God is the grounding for logic,

1644
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:07,680
and I really have no idea what that actually means, Like,

1645
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:10,479
what does it mean to ground logic?

1646
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:12,359
Speaker 6: Why does logic need the.

1647
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:16,560
Speaker 7: Grounding besides being a description of things in a way,

1648
01:22:17,119 --> 01:22:19,800
I'm not exactly sure. So you know, I thought I

1649
01:22:20,319 --> 01:22:22,800
thought i'd ask someone who knows that better than me.

1650
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:26,399
Speaker 3: Well, to be honest, it kind of confuses me too.

1651
01:22:26,479 --> 01:22:32,359
The idea of grounding logic itself doesn't really ask a

1652
01:22:32,399 --> 01:22:37,239
clear question. But I think if you view religion and

1653
01:22:37,319 --> 01:22:41,760
Christianity or you know whatever whatever, or you did mention Christians. Yeah,

1654
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:46,720
so Christianity is very authoritarian, right, It's it's it's top

1655
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:49,319
down that the person at the top or the god

1656
01:22:49,359 --> 01:22:50,760
at the top says.

1657
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:52,760
Speaker 5: What it is, and that's the way it goes.

1658
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:56,680
Speaker 3: And so from an authoritarian perspective, if you see things

1659
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:00,800
acting all acting the same way, then it's natural to

1660
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:02,239
make the assumption that something must be.

1661
01:23:02,199 --> 01:23:03,399
Speaker 5: Making them act that way.

1662
01:23:03,439 --> 01:23:08,079
Speaker 3: And so when we talk about logic, as as a

1663
01:23:08,079 --> 01:23:10,720
math teacher, and to correct what the earlier caller, I

1664
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:13,920
don't consider myself a mathematician. I consider myself a math teacher.

1665
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:17,520
I make mathematicians, and so that's what I do. But

1666
01:23:18,279 --> 01:23:23,560
the idea of grounding logic logic is really just a

1667
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:28,199
description of relationships of truth values. If this is true,

1668
01:23:28,239 --> 01:23:30,920
then this other thing will be true. If this combination

1669
01:23:31,039 --> 01:23:33,399
of statements are true, then we can make we can

1670
01:23:33,439 --> 01:23:37,000
deduce or you know whatever logical process and come to

1671
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:41,680
a conclusion. So we can basically take previous knowledge and

1672
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:44,359
use it to generate new knowledge. We can we can

1673
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:47,720
learn new things about reality. And to me, that's just

1674
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:50,800
an observation of the way things are. You know, if

1675
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:53,920
things had been different, then logic would be different, because

1676
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:58,159
logic is a description of those relationships between those those

1677
01:23:58,159 --> 01:23:58,920
truth values.

1678
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:00,760
Speaker 5: And so if.

1679
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:04,600
Speaker 3: Philosophers use these terms called prescriptive and descriptive, right, prescriptive

1680
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:08,039
means that the rules of logic or mathematics or science

1681
01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:12,479
dictate the way things go. Oh, you're a proton, you

1682
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:15,279
have to act this way. You're an electron, you have

1683
01:24:15,319 --> 01:24:18,760
to act this other way. Oh you are twelve meters

1684
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:20,880
from this other object. Here's the gravity that's going to

1685
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:24,000
affect you, et cetera, et cetera. But when if you

1686
01:24:24,039 --> 01:24:28,279
look at the process of science talks about looking at

1687
01:24:28,279 --> 01:24:33,279
the world, looking for patterns and then making conclusions, Science, logic,

1688
01:24:33,319 --> 01:24:37,159
and math are at least descriptive. If you want to

1689
01:24:37,199 --> 01:24:40,119
show that they're prescriptive, then that's an extra step. And

1690
01:24:40,199 --> 01:24:43,560
so if they're saying that logic needs to be grounded,

1691
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:49,520
in other words, logic needs to be formed or encouraged

1692
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:55,039
or enforced, that will necessarily imply something that's doing that,

1693
01:24:55,119 --> 01:24:57,119
whether it's a god or whether it's something else that

1694
01:24:57,159 --> 01:25:01,279
remains to be seen. But the the idea that logic

1695
01:25:01,399 --> 01:25:05,159
is descriptive is really a cornerstone of science. It's a

1696
01:25:05,199 --> 01:25:09,039
cornerstone of our logical and mathematical thinking that we look

1697
01:25:09,079 --> 01:25:12,319
at the world, we see patterns, and then we look

1698
01:25:12,359 --> 01:25:14,479
for other places to apply those patterns.

1699
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:15,640
Speaker 5: And so the.

1700
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:20,359
Speaker 3: Idea of logic needing grounds well reality. And you know,

1701
01:25:20,439 --> 01:25:25,039
from my perspective, reality grounds logic because logic is a descriptive,

1702
01:25:25,359 --> 01:25:27,439
is a description of reality. It would be kind of

1703
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:32,000
like me, me writing a story about this perfect apple,

1704
01:25:32,039 --> 01:25:34,680
and I give a great descriptive description of the apple,

1705
01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:37,359
and then later on somebody pulls up what I wrote

1706
01:25:37,399 --> 01:25:40,279
and pulls up the apple and they say, this is amazing.

1707
01:25:40,319 --> 01:25:43,319
Your description is exactly like the apple. You know how

1708
01:25:43,479 --> 01:25:46,520
what grounded that? Well, what grounded it was that I

1709
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:49,840
was trying to describe the apple, right, And so if

1710
01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:53,079
we're looking for a grounding of logic, to me, and

1711
01:25:53,119 --> 01:25:55,760
this is my perspective as a as a student of

1712
01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:59,359
math and a teacher, that that's what's grounding it. We

1713
01:25:59,399 --> 01:26:02,319
look at reality, we see the pattern, and we apply

1714
01:26:02,399 --> 01:26:04,920
it that way. Now there might be other perspectives on

1715
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:06,520
it as well, but that's just how I see it.

1716
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:10,039
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, that's that's that's posion I view as well. Yeah,

1717
01:26:10,039 --> 01:26:10,560
I get that.

1718
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:15,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think if I would sum it up

1719
01:26:16,159 --> 01:26:17,840
with what Scott and I.

1720
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:18,600
Speaker 2: I agree with Scott.

1721
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:22,600
Speaker 1: Grounding seems to be the thing that causes the other thing,

1722
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:26,479
like A causes B. Therefore B is grounded in A.

1723
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:31,239
And the reason why logic works. Their prescriptions they just

1724
01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:34,279
or their descriptions about how the universe behaves.

1725
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:37,039
Speaker 2: We can use the laws of logic.

1726
01:26:37,119 --> 01:26:40,439
Speaker 1: They're grounded in the fact that reality exists and it

1727
01:26:40,479 --> 01:26:45,720
has the behavior. Now, theists don't like this because they

1728
01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:48,920
think that the universe itself is contingent, and you can't

1729
01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:52,680
ground something in uh, something that's contingent.

1730
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:53,560
Speaker 2: That's nonsense.

1731
01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:56,840
Speaker 1: Something can cause something else with even if it is

1732
01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:59,760
something that's contingent. So they're going to try to force

1733
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:02,319
it back on you. They're going to try to say no, no, no,

1734
01:27:02,359 --> 01:27:05,319
it needs to we have to trace the chain of

1735
01:27:05,359 --> 01:27:08,319
contingencies all the way back to something ultimate. You don't

1736
01:27:08,359 --> 01:27:11,800
actually have to do that the universe itself. If we

1737
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:15,800
conclude that the universe is necessary, even though the parts

1738
01:27:16,319 --> 01:27:20,199
inside of the universe aren't all necessary, then you have

1739
01:27:20,239 --> 01:27:23,600
an ultimate source of grounding, just the necessary existence of

1740
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:24,119
the universe.

1741
01:27:24,479 --> 01:27:26,960
Speaker 2: So if you get pushed back, that's one thing you

1742
01:27:27,039 --> 01:27:28,119
might want to reckon.

1743
01:27:28,279 --> 01:27:31,279
Speaker 1: I would say the other thing, too, is the argument

1744
01:27:31,279 --> 01:27:34,000
that you're going to get from a lot of Christians is, remember,

1745
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:37,000
a lot of Christians are basically like Platonists. They want

1746
01:27:37,039 --> 01:27:41,600
to believe in non material entities, like they think numbers

1747
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:45,359
and morals and the laws of physics and the laws

1748
01:27:45,359 --> 01:27:49,520
of logic that they actually exist, like they're out there somewhere.

1749
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:52,479
Speaker 2: They actually exist, and we just have to find them.

1750
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:54,920
Speaker 1: But I mean, from my point of view, I have

1751
01:27:55,039 --> 01:27:56,920
no reason to believe that I have no reason to

1752
01:27:56,920 --> 01:28:00,640
believe that the laws of logic exist anywhere. The laws

1753
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:03,279
of logic, like Scott said, appear just to be like

1754
01:28:03,319 --> 01:28:07,600
a language like mathematics that get to describe a particular phenomenon.

1755
01:28:08,199 --> 01:28:12,800
And so if they did exist transcendentally, there might be

1756
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:14,680
a case to be made and say, hey, we actually

1757
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:18,039
have to ground the laws of logic in something else

1758
01:28:18,239 --> 01:28:22,560
that is transcendental. But they'll never be able to prove

1759
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:24,439
that the laws of logic are transcendental.

1760
01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:25,520
Speaker 2: I've I've been trying.

1761
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:29,800
Speaker 1: I've been asking theis for three years now to give

1762
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:31,840
me a reason to believe that the laws of logic

1763
01:28:32,319 --> 01:28:35,880
or anything else like numbers are transcendental and they can

1764
01:28:35,960 --> 01:28:37,600
never do it, and they never will be able to

1765
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:40,439
do it. So I would if they try to force

1766
01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:43,279
it on you, just ask them how how would I

1767
01:28:43,399 --> 01:28:45,800
come to the conclusion, you know, how would Toby come

1768
01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:49,239
to the conclusion that the laws of logic are transcendental

1769
01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:53,640
and objective and that they exist independent, you know, of

1770
01:28:53,720 --> 01:28:57,279
everything else, and therefore needs a transcendental grounding. And I

1771
01:28:57,279 --> 01:28:59,560
don't think you'll get any sound argumentation.

1772
01:29:00,560 --> 01:29:02,159
Speaker 7: Oh well, thank you very much.

1773
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:03,199
Speaker 2: Sure think Brin.

1774
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:05,239
Speaker 7: Some think I have a little more.

1775
01:29:05,399 --> 01:29:06,920
Speaker 6: I have much more to say.

1776
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:10,399
Speaker 7: I think I'll be headed to bed now because it's

1777
01:29:10,399 --> 01:29:11,079
when I am here.

1778
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:15,399
Speaker 5: Sure, thanks a lot, Toby, Thanks for calling in.

1779
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:18,640
Speaker 2: Well, hopefully Toby gets some sleep.

1780
01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:22,439
Speaker 1: I believe that the lines are closed now, although the

1781
01:29:22,479 --> 01:29:23,840
TikTok lines are open if.

1782
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:25,520
Speaker 2: Somebody wants to call in.

1783
01:29:26,640 --> 01:29:30,399
Speaker 1: I did have a question for for Scott though. Okay,

1784
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:34,680
so Scott, I'm curious and I've talked to a number

1785
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:37,000
of people that like to do the philosophy.

1786
01:29:37,399 --> 01:29:38,960
Speaker 2: I don't get to talk to a lot.

1787
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:41,560
Speaker 1: Of people that are really into math other than you know,

1788
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:44,239
doctor Blitz, and ian Ian's got a mathematics degree in

1789
01:29:44,279 --> 01:29:48,119
Doctor Blitz obviously the physicist. I'm curious, what's your position

1790
01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:52,279
on numbers being transcendental. Are you a platonist, like a

1791
01:29:52,359 --> 01:29:55,039
numerical platonist, or do you believe that numbers are like

1792
01:29:55,079 --> 01:29:57,600
an invented language to describe reality.

1793
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:01,439
Speaker 3: I would well, I mean, first of all, there's a

1794
01:30:01,479 --> 01:30:04,680
distinction and this some of this is getting kind of nitpicky,

1795
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:07,560
and so you know, I'll preface by saying that, but

1796
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:09,840
there's a difference between like number and numeral.

1797
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:10,079
Speaker 6: Right.

1798
01:30:10,079 --> 01:30:12,720
Speaker 3: The numeral is the symbol we use to represent the number.

1799
01:30:13,079 --> 01:30:15,640
We come up with this, this curvy shape with a

1800
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:17,560
flat bottom, we say we're going to call that two,

1801
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:21,279
and that's going to represent you know, twoness, right. And

1802
01:30:21,359 --> 01:30:25,000
so to answer your question, though, I think it's it

1803
01:30:25,039 --> 01:30:26,760
boils down to what we were talking about with the

1804
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:30,039
caller about the idea about mathematics being descriptive. I think

1805
01:30:30,399 --> 01:30:33,640
I view math as being an invented language used to

1806
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:38,600
describe discovered relationships. And one of those relationships is this

1807
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:42,359
idea of twoness. If we talk about two sticks, if

1808
01:30:42,399 --> 01:30:45,800
we talk about two cows, we talk about two enemies,

1809
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:47,840
we talk about two you know, two of all these

1810
01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:51,279
different things we see that there's a pattern between those

1811
01:30:51,319 --> 01:30:54,199
and so we call that too. And so I don't

1812
01:30:54,199 --> 01:30:56,279
know if that was a cop out answer or if

1813
01:30:56,279 --> 01:30:58,199
that was a that was a direct answer, But I

1814
01:30:58,239 --> 01:30:59,960
think that I don't.

1815
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:01,279
Speaker 5: I don't.

1816
01:31:01,319 --> 01:31:04,319
Speaker 3: I'm not really a realist when it comes to you know,

1817
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:08,720
or platonist when it comes to the concept of numbers.

1818
01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:12,000
I don't think that there's there's a perfect two somewhere,

1819
01:31:12,159 --> 01:31:14,560
you know, in existence. I think that really it's just

1820
01:31:15,479 --> 01:31:19,279
describing something as being two is very similar to describing

1821
01:31:19,359 --> 01:31:23,640
something as being red, or being stinky, or being over there.

1822
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:27,319
You know, it's just a it's just a description of

1823
01:31:27,359 --> 01:31:28,000
the situation.

1824
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:29,920
Speaker 2: Sure, but what if.

1825
01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:33,439
Speaker 1: What if I'm an astute Platonist Christian and I say, yes,

1826
01:31:33,520 --> 01:31:39,359
but the number two possesses tunis, and tunis is something

1827
01:31:39,399 --> 01:31:40,840
that is independent.

1828
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:43,720
Speaker 5: So twunis is independent of.

1829
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:47,680
Speaker 2: What the tunis is. The isness of two?

1830
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:50,640
Speaker 3: Well, I mean you could say that that about anything.

1831
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:53,399
You could say about the redness of red, the stinkiness

1832
01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:58,920
of stinky, and and so it's the the twnis. Yeah,

1833
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:01,039
I see what you're getting at, right? Do you need

1834
01:32:01,119 --> 01:32:03,560
have the objects in front of you to recognize that

1835
01:32:04,039 --> 01:32:06,600
the two noess I mean we we can think conceptually.

1836
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:09,239
The way our brains work is we can picture things

1837
01:32:09,319 --> 01:32:12,199
that aren't real, right, So we can picture I can

1838
01:32:12,239 --> 01:32:14,920
say two cows, and you're gonna, you're gonna, you know,

1839
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:19,319
imagine two cows. And so I think that it's I

1840
01:32:19,359 --> 01:32:21,880
don't think we're tapping into something that's out there in

1841
01:32:21,920 --> 01:32:25,319
the universe. I think we're just describing the way things are,

1842
01:32:25,479 --> 01:32:28,720
and and and again it boils down to patterns. We

1843
01:32:29,039 --> 01:32:32,479
see that this idea when we just if somebody tells

1844
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:35,760
me that's two of eggs or whatever, then I can

1845
01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:37,760
get an I can say, okay, well, eggs are kind

1846
01:32:37,760 --> 01:32:39,960
of round shape, they're kind of white or whatever color

1847
01:32:40,000 --> 01:32:43,399
they happen to be, they're laying on the table, they're about.

1848
01:32:43,199 --> 01:32:45,199
Speaker 5: The size of a golf ball or whatever.

1849
01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:49,279
Speaker 3: And you know, all these different descriptions are just us

1850
01:32:49,279 --> 01:32:52,479
attaching words to characteristics of the thing that we see.

1851
01:32:52,960 --> 01:32:57,399
I don't necessarily think that there has to be a

1852
01:32:57,479 --> 01:33:02,640
twoeness other then the pattern that we see and we

1853
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:05,239
and so then we can kind of extrapolate from the

1854
01:33:05,319 --> 01:33:07,279
from the examples we've seen and we so we can

1855
01:33:07,319 --> 01:33:10,920
imagine even though I've never seen a unicorn, I can

1856
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:13,439
imagine what two unicorns look like because I have that

1857
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:15,520
concept of two in my head. There's there's a lot

1858
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:17,479
of things that we can conceive of in our minds

1859
01:33:17,479 --> 01:33:23,119
that don't necessarily have you know, actual physical correlates.

1860
01:33:22,640 --> 01:33:23,720
Speaker 5: If that makes any sense.

1861
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:26,479
Speaker 3: But I I think that I would say to that,

1862
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:29,760
to that person, you got if you're saying that there's

1863
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:34,119
a two neis outside of you know, describing this particular pattern,

1864
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:35,720
show me, you know, show me.

1865
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:38,359
Speaker 5: I mean, mathematics really has a lot to do with.

1866
01:33:40,359 --> 01:33:43,119
Speaker 3: You know, stepping back and abstraction, right, and and so

1867
01:33:43,199 --> 01:33:45,239
really it's it's an abstraction, but we're not saying that

1868
01:33:45,279 --> 01:33:47,760
abstract things exist. That it's just a way that we

1869
01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:52,880
can describe relationships and and uh, you know collections of

1870
01:33:52,880 --> 01:33:53,840
of objects.

1871
01:33:54,439 --> 01:33:56,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my thought. So you know, when we

1872
01:33:56,680 --> 01:34:00,800
talk about is this, it's not clear that is is.

1873
01:34:01,319 --> 01:34:04,039
They use the word as though it's a thing like

1874
01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:07,600
itself exists. But I think is this, like you said,

1875
01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:12,680
it's really actually just describing the relational properties of the

1876
01:34:12,760 --> 01:34:16,119
items which we make through observation.

1877
01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:18,520
Speaker 2: Our observation actually.

1878
01:34:18,159 --> 01:34:24,560
Speaker 1: Supplies the isness because you need subjective minds to determine relations.

1879
01:34:25,319 --> 01:34:27,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, yep, I would agree with that completely.

1880
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:31,079
Speaker 2: Okay, friends, uh, we're basically out of time.

1881
01:34:31,079 --> 01:34:32,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to read one more super chat and then

1882
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:34,960
we're going to bring up our friend Jamie, not the

1883
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:38,079
pre recorded Jamie, the live Jamie, actual.

1884
01:34:37,840 --> 01:34:41,079
Speaker 3: Live Jamie here for you. We spare no expense at

1885
01:34:41,079 --> 01:34:42,720
the Atheist Experience.

1886
01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:48,079
Speaker 1: None, absolutely none, Zoxin, thank you for the five euro chat,

1887
01:34:48,119 --> 01:34:51,359
says Toby here. Oh Toby, hey, thank you, It says

1888
01:34:51,439 --> 01:34:53,920
thanks again for the chat, and have a little tip.

1889
01:34:54,039 --> 01:34:56,439
Keep doing what you're doing. You guys are great. Well,

1890
01:34:56,520 --> 01:34:59,560
thank you Zoxin. I really appreciate that. Friend, or actually Toby,

1891
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:01,840
thank you to I really appreciate that.

1892
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:02,279
Speaker 2: And friend.

1893
01:35:02,359 --> 01:35:06,119
Speaker 1: Remember there are many ways you can support the Atheist

1894
01:35:06,159 --> 01:35:10,159
Experience and the ACA. You could become members of the channel,

1895
01:35:10,359 --> 01:35:14,119
you can follow the Patreon. You don't have to just

1896
01:35:14,479 --> 01:35:16,720
you know, show up to the streams and send out

1897
01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:19,760
the super chats, although those obviously are helpful. Watching the

1898
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:22,800
streams help a lot, and also watching the podcast. But

1899
01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:26,199
we really appreciate y'all being here. Jamie coming up, buddy,

1900
01:35:26,199 --> 01:35:27,600
I want to hear your thoughts on the calls.

1901
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:30,359
Speaker 8: I come to you with a fist full of physics.

1902
01:35:30,199 --> 01:35:33,119
Speaker 5: Anyway, Yeah, every kind of physics.

1903
01:35:33,279 --> 01:35:38,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, but the whole what I against was a category

1904
01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:42,760
era when people try and say things like like does

1905
01:35:42,840 --> 01:35:46,039
nothingness exist? Or does you know, does existence exist? It's

1906
01:35:46,079 --> 01:35:49,119
like the concept does because I have a brains conceptualize it.

1907
01:35:49,199 --> 01:35:52,479
You can't hand me a bag of existence. I can't

1908
01:35:52,479 --> 01:35:58,880
have twenty five kilos of maths, you know. So it's

1909
01:35:58,640 --> 01:36:01,159
it's it's it's all a little bit thing. And it's

1910
01:36:01,199 --> 01:36:02,880
just the way that phil Brows tend to try and

1911
01:36:03,319 --> 01:36:08,199
tie you up in these in these semantic word traps,

1912
01:36:08,359 --> 01:36:10,399
and I find them.

1913
01:36:10,600 --> 01:36:11,079
Speaker 6: It's weird.

1914
01:36:11,079 --> 01:36:14,359
Speaker 8: I find them like tiring and fascinating at the same time,

1915
01:36:14,439 --> 01:36:19,000
like a slow motion train wreck. Great show as always, guys,

1916
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:24,399
I always feel like I'm sandwich between uh, intellectual giants

1917
01:36:24,399 --> 01:36:27,199
when I'm when I'm up against people with far more

1918
01:36:27,359 --> 01:36:31,520
specific experience and knowledge than me. I'm just some blog

1919
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:36,000
from Birmingham to talk sometimes on the internet. But yeah,

1920
01:36:36,159 --> 01:36:38,159
and so last.

1921
01:36:37,920 --> 01:36:39,479
Speaker 5: Two, humble, Jamie, you're too humble.

1922
01:36:40,079 --> 01:36:43,760
Speaker 2: You've also got one of the great voices of the

1923
01:36:43,840 --> 01:36:44,600
athiest generation.

1924
01:36:45,159 --> 01:36:46,680
Speaker 5: Definitely, that's the trick.

1925
01:36:46,760 --> 01:36:49,399
Speaker 8: You don't have to be smart if you're saying smart.

1926
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:53,319
The I will just again one more big up to

1927
01:36:53,359 --> 01:36:56,239
the to the upcoming fundraiser. There's a bunch of people

1928
01:36:56,239 --> 01:37:00,520
getting involved, myself included. It's going to be really good fun.

1929
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:05,079
And thank you for all the good calls the first one.

1930
01:37:06,399 --> 01:37:09,039
We love that kind of conversation with this where they

1931
01:37:09,039 --> 01:37:13,119
are honest and you know, inquisitive and let us talk

1932
01:37:13,159 --> 01:37:15,359
and we let them talk. It doesn't have to be

1933
01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:19,039
a fight. So again a big props to the first

1934
01:37:19,119 --> 01:37:20,760
Core on that one.

1935
01:37:20,960 --> 01:37:25,399
Speaker 1: You're here absolutely and friends, We're just about to end

1936
01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:27,720
the show and look, Kine is here with the Superdad.

1937
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:32,119
Thank you, says our imaginative abilities are bound by reality.

1938
01:37:32,359 --> 01:37:36,119
What is a unicorn? A horse with a horn? Two

1939
01:37:36,199 --> 01:37:40,920
things that exist in reality. Actually, unicorn is one of

1940
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:45,640
my favorite like King James topics, because there are two

1941
01:37:46,039 --> 01:37:48,600
are basically three animals that end up in the King

1942
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:51,079
James Bible that people don't know what it means, even

1943
01:37:51,119 --> 01:37:54,399
though people used to know so the unicorn it is

1944
01:37:54,439 --> 01:37:57,920
actually just a one horn rhinoceros, which was native to

1945
01:37:58,079 --> 01:38:02,560
the southern eleventeen region at some point and would have

1946
01:38:02,560 --> 01:38:05,439
been known to the audience, but the medieval European didn't

1947
01:38:05,479 --> 01:38:08,000
know what a unicorn was, so they let their imagination

1948
01:38:08,159 --> 01:38:11,520
run wild, and we got these winged horses with horns,

1949
01:38:11,520 --> 01:38:15,560
and even in like Isaiah thirty four, we've got satyrs

1950
01:38:15,880 --> 01:38:18,760
like you know, goat and the bottom man on top

1951
01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:23,079
satyrs like from Greek mythology, because there's a goat demon

1952
01:38:23,199 --> 01:38:26,600
that shows up in Isaiah thirty four, and they didn't

1953
01:38:26,640 --> 01:38:29,199
know how to translate it. They didn't know the context,

1954
01:38:29,239 --> 01:38:31,600
they didn't know that much about the ancient Near East,

1955
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:34,720
and so they translated it with their understanding of Greek

1956
01:38:35,359 --> 01:38:39,079
under philosophy in Greek texts, and so they ended up

1957
01:38:39,119 --> 01:38:41,880
putting a satyr in the King James Bible because they

1958
01:38:41,920 --> 01:38:45,119
didn't have the requisite knowledge to know what the hell's

1959
01:38:45,159 --> 01:38:48,960
going on in this pathage. Another good reason, friends, why

1960
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:50,920
the Kingdoms Bible is out of date. No matter how

1961
01:38:50,920 --> 01:38:53,720
smart the translators were, we just know more than they

1962
01:38:53,840 --> 01:38:56,239
know because we've discovered lots of fun stuff. And I'll

1963
01:38:56,239 --> 01:39:00,439
get off my King James hoapbox now, Scott Jamie, I

1964
01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:02,760
had a ton of fun with you all today, And

1965
01:39:03,119 --> 01:39:06,359
if you guys had fun, come back, same time, same

1966
01:39:06,359 --> 01:39:10,239
place next week, four thirty DM Central Standard time, five

1967
01:39:10,319 --> 01:39:13,439
thirty Eastern Standard time and you can calculate the other

1968
01:39:13,560 --> 01:39:16,399
time zones. Really appreciate your friends and if you miss

1969
01:39:16,439 --> 01:39:19,520
the live stream. If you miss any live stream, remember

1970
01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:22,399
you can always download it on your favorite podcast or

1971
01:39:22,479 --> 01:39:24,399
just watch it back on YouTube.

1972
01:39:24,479 --> 01:39:25,520
Speaker 2: All of them are.

1973
01:39:25,439 --> 01:39:28,640
Speaker 1: Available on the major podcast platform, so even if you

1974
01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:30,279
just want to listen to it while you're at work

1975
01:39:30,359 --> 01:39:32,359
or on a plane, it's there, all right.

1976
01:39:32,359 --> 01:39:44,560
Speaker 9: Yeah start al ya, stop passing the bullshit emy around

1977
01:39:44,640 --> 01:39:46,600
you buy shit.

1978
01:39:46,840 --> 01:39:50,840
Speaker 7: Se y'all welcome, It's.

1979
01:39:52,359 --> 01:39:52,520
Speaker 4: Ele.

1980
01:40:17,039 --> 01:40:20,039
Speaker 2: Watch Talk ee Than live Sundays at one pm Central.

1981
01:40:20,119 --> 01:40:23,119
Visit tiny dot c c slash y t t H

1982
01:40:23,239 --> 01:40:25,640
and call into the show at five one two nine

1983
01:40:25,720 --> 01:40:28,199
nine one nine two four two, or connect to the

1984
01:40:28,199 --> 01:40:31,279
show online at tiny dot c c slash call th

1985
01:40:31,640 --> 01:40:31,680
H